The human species is inherently violent. Even if we were all the same color we would still find some reason to hate. Nonetheless, it is good arrests have been made...now the work really begins.

Maybe it's time to get past the P-C crap,and bring back public executions of the guilty.(of any color) You murder people,you die...and...everyone (of any color)including KIDS get to see it.Let the kids also know that there are consequences for your actions...I also blame the media for fanning any ember of violence they can find just to keep an inflamatory story going......The judge's HISPANIC son who did the shooting in Florida,should have been arrested on the spot when that happened....I have a CWP,and I have the common sense to know that when there is a confrontation where you feel your life is threatened,you have the right to defend yourself,BUT when the offending party breaks it off and runs away,PUT THE GUN AWAY,confrontation is OVER....soooo when the police dispatcher tells you;'it's over,don't follow him'....and you do...and you shoot him...with a gun you're not supposed to carry on you litttle'watch'thing..(because you are too stupid,or lazy to become a real police officer...)..You go to jail,...Shouldn't matter that daddy-the-judge got you off before...bailed your ass......it's murder.....done deal............U.S.Army Disabled Veteran

How wondrous it would be to wake and feel god’s presence, the warmth of love and compassion - words used today to manipulate us poor souls. Could be there is such a god to wake to, but only within ourselves, not from any mouth that puts forth hell and damnation, fear and hate; that separates each of us to hide and cringe. A spirit in the skies would not carry a moral template of rules, laws, and regulations set forth by common man, a combination of humanity’s traits of punishment and temptations. We would have little or none of that. What is this religion that was devised? A means of elevating only a certain few, for what reason, but to control the masses? This should lay a few eggs.

Cimarronrose, Correction: the male human species, including patriarchal religious & political institutions. The recent news of human trafficking in U.S., Thailand, Spain, Mexico, Eastern Europe affect whom? Hundreds of thousands young women, some as young as 8 yrs. old.

About a decade ago, several African nations elected female leaders almost by default because the population of men were near decimated by wars. The women of these countries who were at war with one another & established peace, education, & care for the enemies' orphans.

It is time for a change & I don't mean Obama & god forbid (pardon the pun), Santorum. And no females in sheep's clothing need apply.

justwonderin

Maybe it's time to get past the P-C crap,and bring back public executions of the guilty.(of any color) You murder people,you die...and...everyone (of any color)including KIDS get to see it.Let the kids also know that there are consequences for your actions...I also blame the media for fanning any ember of violence they can find just to keep an inflamatory story going......The judge's HISPANIC son who did the shooting in Florida,should have been arrested on the spot when that happened....I have a CWP,and I have the common sense to know that when there is a confrontation where you feel your life is threatened,you have the right to defend yourself,BUT when the offending party breaks it off and runs away,PUT THE GUN AWAY,confrontation is OVER....soooo when the police dispatcher tells you;'it's over,don't follow him'....and you do...and you shoot him...with a gun you're not supposed to carry on you litttle'watch'thing..(because you are too stupid,or lazy to become a real police officer...)..You go to jail,...Shouldn't matter that daddy-the-judge got you off before...bailed your ass......it's murder.....done deal............U.S.Army Disabled Veteran

I don't think murderers care if you put the death penalty. Would you give the death pentalty to a suicide bomber? Do you think that would be sufficient punishment? If our intent is to murder all the convicts then they would wise up and just learn to frame people. Then you would put an innocent man out of life. I think serving life is much more tedious and punish able. Remember how many innocent men came our of life imprisonment because of DNA evidence which did not exist in the 80's and 90's. Our system is far from perfect, murdering murderers is not sufficient punishment. Let them fend for themselves against jail rape and sleeping everyday with one eye open before they get shanked. and don't give me its cheaper.

People v. Scott Peterson, Death Penalty Trial
$3.2 Million Total
People v. Rex Allen Krebs Death Penalty Trial
$2.8 Million Total
People v. Cary Stayner, Death Penalty Trial
$2.368 Million Total
People v. Robert Wigley, Non-Death Penalty Trial
$454,000 Total

It costs about 40,000 total to keep a prisoner in life without parole.

NARAIT,

A better question... What's wrong with people who illegally own guns?

(disclaimer: I don't know if the guns were illegally owned or not)

The lyrics to Tool's Right in Two come to mind

If they're found guilty, they should be executed, but that is small comfort to the families of the victims.

justwonderin

While I think that Zimmerman was wrong to do what he did in continuing to follow Trayvon Martin, your description of the events does not match the reports from witnesses or the police.

We need to wait for the official reports instead of speculating and fanning the flames of racism.

First difference: Clean quick search and arrest. Kudos!

Phenomenal112 "It costs about 40,000 total to keep a prisoner in life without parole."

Where did you come up with that figure? In California, it costs about $40,000 PER YEAR to keep a prisoner in jail, and a 20 year old prisoner would have a life expectancy of another 65 years, for a total incarceration cost of about $2.6 Million (without inflation).

I find the idea of a "hate crime" absurd. Why would a murder need to be classified as anything but murder? A murder is more criminal if it was based on a prejudice due to classification that the victim was of a certain group? That's nonsense.

RiggsDonna

NO ADVERTIZING FOR BUSINESS

Phenom,

Financially I agree, and I've heard those same "numbers" for years. I agree with the death penalty, but I do believe the system for the death penalty is in need of bad repair. The death penalty should only be used when there is a preponderance of bona fide evidence. Scott Peterson is likely guilty as sin but I believe he is sitting on death row convicted with circumstantial evidence. This is wrong.

Imagine....a brotherhood of man. Sorry John, things aren't working out so well

earthgirl...bong hits on Easter Sunday morning?

...to each their own...

Happy Easter!

Those convicted, especially with DNA evidence shouldn't get so many appeals ! And stop the LIBERAL crap about putting to death even one innocent person, you'll never get the LIBBIES to go along anyway !

Just as I said yesterday, the cops were looking for a white guy in a white P/U. Probably a redneck. Looks like they found 2 of em. Their names sound more like chipmunks though, "Jake & Alvin"

Even if we were all the same color we would still find some reason to hate. Nonetheless,

Good example is Ireland, all white so they kill each other over religion.

I do not understand anyone who dislikes the Hate crime law. Raed it before you comment on it because there is a large number of people who only dislike it because the want to be able to be openly prejudiced against othe human beings.

Now as to the lets execute all of the guilty ones right away. Othe countries do that and we call them backwards. Only way you could do that under our creed is to have an ifallible justice system and our is far from that. Then again we get this from all people christians who believe in the ten commandments one of whitch is thou shalt not kill. Does not say Thou shalt not kill unless you are the government.

justwonderin'

so you think we should opt for taliban-style criminal justice? quick adjudication and turn over a stadium to public executions? sure.

A murder is more criminal if it was based on a prejudice due to classification that the victim was of a certain group?

Yes, because the prejudice IS the motivation for the crime. If the prejudice didn't exist, the crime would not be committed. There's an additional element to hate crimes that makes them more heinous.

How does humanity get this low?

Two more scum off the street.

Oklahoma has the death penalty and we are not afraid too use it. I was born and raised here and I have never seen such a act of violence like this one. Our prayers and thoughts go out too the familys of the victims.

JimmyC,

DId you forget the 2 small girls ni Oklahoma that were gunned down while they were playing? That was just as heinous. Did you forget because those girls were white as was the shooter?

@Cimmarron correction: In this case it's human feces...

This is exactly the reason the FED should butt out and NOT prosecute this as a federal hate crime....the most these vermin can receive under a Federal Hate Crime is a huge fine, which neither of these probably can pay, and life in prison. If they will allow this to go forward under the Oklahoma laws these men can be put to death....Why waste time and resources...beyond a full investigation and fair trial...if convicted these two should just cease to exist...If hate took them over and inspired them to shoot innocent people well they certainly don't deserve mercy....let God sort it sooner than later.

Still waiting for NBC to report on the Baltimore incident.

AtlasWillShrug: "I find the idea of a "hate crime" absurd. Why would a murder need to be classified as anything but murder? A murder is more criminal if it was based on a prejudice due to classification that the victim was of a certain group? That's nonsense."

"HateCrime" is indeed much worse than 'murder', because they promote the genocide of the whole "hated" group. Genocide is really "bad."

Well this just proves..white people will be arrested too.... if there is proof of a crime.

"the sooner the later'??? Think you meant "the sooner the better".

i must have missed the actual trial in an actual courthouse with a actual judge with a actual jury of peers.

Two white men shooting people at random, all victims black. Authorities say it's not clear yet that it's hate crime? The evidence seems pretty clear to me. Racism is rampant in America.

Hang them by the neck until dead, they didn't give the people they killed a trial !

Regarding Hate Crimes: The motive is not robbery, revenge or jealousy but a hatred of a "class/race/religion/gender/orientation" of human, as in the murder of millions by the Nazis. They murdered human beings they considered less human and not fit to live. Incredibly heinous. Likewise the genocide in Rwanda.

We consider crimes against defenseless children and the elderly to be especially horrific as well and therefore there are upgraded charges against them (reflected in the sentencing). So, yes, there needs to be a classification of murder for those crimes which have no motivation except hate.

We have degrees of and special circumstances for homicide, manslaughter, robbery, etc.....if the motive is hate, and hate alone, then it is a hate crime. Just like terrorism!

Why is that so hard to understand?

Alan....and this is exactly why law enforcement should be allowed to investigate and gather evidence without interference...There is no doubt that a crime has been committed...if the evidence leads them to these two men the a trial will commence....If they are fould guilty and their intent was to randomly murder anyone then the should be subject to the stiffest possible penalty which would come through the State and not the FED.

I can't wait to see NBCs edited version of the 911 call. :)

We need to wait for the official reports instead of speculating and fanning the flames of racism.

Try and convince the media of that.

Would be nice to have more information, like how did the police know to arrest these two. What gave them away?

Someone tipped them, I think the story says.

tulsa at it again...long known as the most racist town in the u.s. .....get out of town by sundown.....greenwood murder spree by yulsa police

Phenomenal;

$40,000 total?!? Where do you your numbers, the comic stripe. The average murder trial, regardless of sentence recommendation averages $275,000. The cost to house an inmate in state prison averages $58,000 per year of incarceration. $68,000 in the Federal system. So, say a 25 year old receives a life sentence w/o parole. Given an average life expectancy of 80 years, that's $4,640,000 in a state prison or $5,644,000. This is not counting cost for protective custody for perverts, child molester/killers and rapists.Nor does it account for special needs for elderly inmates, disabled inmates and other people who can't function in general population. 3 million for a death penalty case for the worse offenders is starting to look cheap.

correction:Fry them, the sooner the better.

:-)

26ramses;

Make up your mind, last week you made the same comment about Florida. There can't be two :most" racist places in the U.S. If you want to bring up history how about New york in the 1850's when Whites killed nearly a hundred blacks in riots???? Hmmm? Read a history book lately?

Here's a crazy idea, why don't we let the police do their jobs, gather evidence and present it in court, how about that?

never posted about fla and greenwood riot worst in u.s. history...

There is much more-extensive coverage including the shooter's motive available on the website of the Daily Mail in London, UK. Warning: ***Rough Language and use of the "N-word"***

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126532/Tulsa-shooting-spree-Jake-England-Alvin-Watts-arrested.html

As for the death penalty, it was not given to the shooter that began the Tulsa tragedy this past couple of days. Instead, he was given a much lighter sentence.

States without the death penalty:

Alaska (1957)
Hawaii (1957)
Illinois (2011)
Iowa (1965)
Maine (1887)
Massachusetts (1984)
Michigan (1846)

Minnesota (1911)
New Jersey (2007)
New Mexico (2009) (Not retroactive – 2 still on death row)
New York (2007) (Not retroactive – 1 still on death row)

North Dakota (1973)
Rhode Island (1984)
Vermont (1964)

West Virginia (1965)
Wisconsin (1853)

ALSO
- Dist. of Columbia (1981)

I was born and raised in Michigan, a State which has not had a death penalty since 1846, and I firmly do not believe that the State should be in the business of killing people either. Nor do I believe in a sentence of life without parole for a first-time violent felony offender either, and I most-certainly do not believe in such a sentence being given to any juvenile who has been the victim of rape, sexual assault, or other wanton child abuse who kills their attacker either.

In my adopted home State of Colorado there are 48 juveniles still serving life without parole even though the State has since outlawed such a sentence for juvenile offenders, a number of whom killed abusive parents. The case of Jacob Ind is a good example, and there are others. Because the new Colorado law was not made retroactive, these 48 kids are in effect political prisoners, a number of whom killed their abusive parents who society was unable to protect them from.

I still say that our homicide rates would fall dramatically if the ownership and allowable uses of handguns were dramatically restricted. For instance, in the United Kingdom, a country that severely restricts handgun use, there were 651 homicides in 2010, in a nation with a population of 61 million people. Yes, for a while only criminals would have guns, but, over time that rate would drop off too. Consider the difference in murder rate for California, a State with just 37 million people, where handguns are legal, with 1809 murders in 2010.

Just think, if we had not had legal handguns in California in 2010, probably 1400 of those people would still be alive. My own belief says that many people can not act in a responsible manner around handguns when they are enraged or desperate, and my reasoning especially applies to juveniles. Since handgun safety, anger management, and humanities are not a required courses in primary education, why hold kids responsible with their entire lives for the irresponsible use of handguns?

We are the only nation in the world with penalties so severe for our own kids. Almost all of the other nations of the world consider how we treat juveniles prosecuted as adults to be a severe human rights violation. I myself think that it is long past time to end such a practice and instead replace it with an intermediate judicial system for older juvenile and young adult first-time violent offenders in which the focus would be on rehabilitation and eventual release instead.

SR...I believe the Taliban execute because of hate, not because of justice.

I agree w/justwandering about the media being at fault...but the getting off point and bitching about the Florida case is just that. This is a different thread, in case you're not sure...

I see we still have some "team players" lurking here. The "I was born with a certain skin color which assigned me to a team. So if folks from YOUR team do something bad, we are somehow allowed to retaliate in kind." SICK!

Here we go again, you can clearly see that only one of these men are white. So we will try and tell everyone that there are both white so we can try and make it into a race issue, just like with the Zimmerman case.....

justwondering,

soooo when the police dispatcher tells you;'it's over,don't follow him'....and you do...and you shoot him...with a gun you're not supposed to carry on you litttle'watch'thing..(because you are too stupid,or lazy to become a real police officer...)..You go to jail,...Shouldn't matter that daddy-the-judge got you off before...bailed your ass......it's murder.....done deal............U.

Really that is what happened how do you know this MSNBC released edited taps of the 911 calls to fit there political agenda. There is ONE WITNESS that is all and he said

that Martin was beating up Zimmerman and that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Than he head the shoot and when he looked again Zimmerman was now standing over Martin.

Just how is that not self defence. It was nice that MSNBC also left out of the storey that this so called great kid had been kicked out of school for drugs, what a great kid. None of us know what happened we where not there but since when do we draw our own conclusions to events and disregard the witnesses that were actually there. You just like so many others have thrown out common sense, to facts that just are not there. It is nice that people do this. -

How would you like it if you were defending yourself from a car jacking, say you had to stab or shoot the guy to live; now you are arrested because there disregarded the witness and they believed the carjackers family that he was a good guy. Than they try and say it was a white on black crime but you are Asian and the other man was black.

Now don't tell me that this is not what happened because you just like me don't know what happened, but unlike you I am not going to go against a witness when there is no other evidence that says it was a deliberate act. Also the cops say that he was not following him anymore. Where do you get that he was not suppose to have a gun? He had a concealed carry permit that means you can carry just about anywhere. If he didn't they would of arrested him for unlawful possession of a firearm. I know lets not listen to the men and women that are sworn to uphold our laws. The president doesn't and calls them stupid so why shouldn't everyone right. No the current disaster in office is wrong to rush to judgement before all the facts, I know I don't want a president that makes these rush to judgement decision. Or like in the case where the black professor was arrested and obama called the cops stupid. I think that just shows his lack of leadership skills he always rushes to judgement on race issues even if they are made up issues lead by MSNBC. All we know so far from the witness is that it was self defense.

Just,

That is not true, the can only use crimes you were convict on when doing the background check, he did have a cwp and thus can carry on the street. You said

it's murder.....done deal............U.

That mean you have disregarded the witness and the evidence. Unlike you I read for various news organizations and not just MSNBC. MSNBC edited the the 911 calls. I did not say Zimmerman was a good guy, I don't think either of them were good guys in my opinion, but there is only on witness and he said the same thing Zimmerman said that it was Martin that attacked him. I think if my neighbor hood had been burglarized as Zimmerman's was and I saw someone I didn't know than I have a right to follow them following someone is not a crime even if the police tell you not to and you do, it is still not a crime. What is a crime is when someone breaks your nose for following them.

Again I as everyone does not know we have to listen to the witness in the case of cases going forward will be able to say you can't use that witness just like you didn't in the Zimmerman case. Once we over look a witness and start making up our own facts we are no better than the ones that commit the crimes, e.g. the president, MSNBC,

Zimm was NOT authorized to carry while on 'watch'..

Zimmerman was not authorized to carry simply because he was a member of the neighbourhood watch but he was authorized because he had a concealed carry permit.

@Bill1488

1. They ARE both white. The article mentions that, at first, one of the two was thought to be a different man (a Native American) because the two men had nearly the same name and the same birthday. That has since been cleared up.

2. It doesn't matter what Martin did before the incident because Zimmerman had no knowledge of those events. Zimmerman saw a stranger walking down the street and decided to follow and confront him against the advice of a 911 operator (and against the usual rules of neighborhood watches.)

3. While Zimmerman had a right to carry because he had a permit, neighborhood watch rules ask that those actively on watch not carry at all. The reason is to prevent the exact thing that happened in this case.

@Marv Leit

Two white men shooting people at random, all victims black.

Notice how one of the guys is actually a Native American but as soon as he's accused of shooting black people he suddenly becomes "white". Kind of like how Zimmerman is a white guy only because he is the alleged perpetrator of a crime, if he were a victim the media would refer to him as being Hispanic.

@the thinker-318752

Zimmerman was not authorized to carry simply because he was a member of the neighbourhood watch but he was authorized because he had a concealed carry permit.

you are mudding the waters here. its not about whether or not he was authorized to carry a weapon. you are forbidden from possessing weapons while performing your responsibilities under neighborhood watch programs.

there was an incident, last year or the year before, i believe, where two girls believed they were being followed by a car. they went home and informed one of their dads, a neighborhood watch member, who, after taking the other girl home, went and found the car that was supposedly following them. i cant recall whether it was the dad or the suspect, but one of them was shot and killed, the other injured.

guns give very weak people a false sense of power. pair that together with a program that lends people faux, self righteous, feel good authority, and you can bet some vigilante types will feel entitled to be judge, jury and executioner. further pair them with castle and stand your ground laws, and you can be 100% certain there will be bloodshed.

@Backcountry, as I just mentioned to Bill, the article says that one of the two suspects was MISTAKEN for a Native American with a similar name and the same birthday, but that police confirmed him as being white later.

i understand his anger but he made a mistake if he did this. He should have waited till that other killer got out like he will of course and took care of that piece of sh*t.

The purpose of neighborhood watch is to observe and report any suspicious activity to the police. That is all. It's not their job to follow. That's why it's called neighborhood watch, not nieghborhood follow with a gun. And what Treyvon did or didn't do before that night doesn't matter. He wasn't breaking any laws by walking down the sidewalk. Treyvon most likely had no idea who Zimmerman was. If some strange person you didn't know was following you would you think 'oh, he must be neighborhood watch"? Personally I would think this person following me might be trying to rob me or worse so I'd be prepared to defend myself if they crossed the line of stalking to attacking me.

Anyway, I'm glad they caught these men and hope the police do a proper investigation. What happened is horrible and my condolences to the families and survivors.

Personally, I'm glad MSNBC reports these gun crimes... it looks like the gun lobby better start paying off reporters too. If you don't like what MSNBC reports on, don't cry to us, we come here of our own free will.

Bill1488 had this to say:

Here we go again, you can clearly see that only one of these men are white. So we will try and tell everyone that there are both white so we can try and make it into a race issue, just like with the Zimmerman case.....

Bill--first, you can't tell a person's "race" just by glancing at him or her. There are blue-eyed, fair-haired black people and dark-haired, dark-eyed white people (go to Armenia). If you think you can tell race at a glance, you are (guess what?) a racist. One's race is what one identifies as--especially if one is biracial.

In Oklahoma, Native Americans are by law considered White (this was done so that Native Americans and Whites could marry despite miscegenation laws--this is still on the books as far as I know). Similarly, Hispanics can be either white or black; Hispanic/Latino is an ethnicity and not a race. The young man is White in terms of Oklahoma law--unless he chooses to identify otherwise (and it sounds to me like he identifies as "White" just as Zimmerman did when asked).

In Oklahoma, many Native Americans are virulently anti-Black. Of course, this is also true in Georgia, Alabama, etc. It is extremely common for Native Americans to be anti-Black and to put themselves down as "White" and to be in the KKK or other skinhead groups.

In any case, a "hate crime" is an intimidation crime. If a person goes around shooting random Black people, and that person has the intention of intimidating other Black people, then there is a crime in addition to the murder/shooting--it is intimidation. Yeah, okay, maybe we should drop the term "hate crime" and just use "intimidation" or "terrorism," but the point is that the law is sensible even if the terminology is questionable.

It appears that they might be able to prove intimidation as an intent--so that's why the "hate crime" enhancement is probably going to be thrown in.

I assure you that if a Black or Native American person wandered around shooting random White people for the purposes of trying to drive them out of a neighborhood or to frighten them, people would be pretty darned quick to call that "terrorism" and prosecute it as a hate crime. I am very sure this would happen in Oklahoma. Have a great day.

Did everyone miss the part about England's father being killed by a black man just two years ago? And his girlfriend had just died, but it didn't say how or where she died. BTW, England is a native american not white! No idea what Watt's connection to this was but England was out for revenge! His father killed and now his girlfriend died, I think that might push many over the edge! I'm not saying that what he did was OK but it's hard to understand how the human brain works. Somehow I think he was blaming all blacks for his father death and maybe his girlfriend's death also. Still no excuse, but ne just didn't decide that he didnt like black people because of their skin!

Agreed Robert, not only was his father killed, but th justice system only convicted the perp of "pointing a gun" and will be realease in a few years.

Yes. 19 year old England's father, was shot to death, by a black man and only got 4 years for killing him. The black man, that murdered England's father is to get out in 2 years. 4 years for killing someone, because he was white.

Racial hatred fueled by his father having been killed by a black man, who will only serve two years; hate crimes began with Cain and Able, they have continued ever since; it is not getting any better, as the socio-economic gap widens among the races, we are slowly sinking into separate nations, if we do not learn to live together, then we must surely live apart, and our great experimenting in a democratic republic, will surely come to a end .

I a native american and i have never seen any native americans in the kkk, just the opposite in pembroke nc the lumbee tribe beat the crap out of the kkk for trying to march through town because a lumbee woman started dating a white man.

@Chris-587843

@Backcountry, as I just mentioned to Bill, the article says that one of the two suspects was MISTAKEN for a Native American with a similar name and the same birthday, but that police confirmed him as being white later.

I read the article again, perhaps you should do the same because it says no such thing. what it does say is- "Police identified both suspects as white males, although earlier court records identified a Jacob Carl England, born on the same date, as American Indian."

That means someone dug up court records that say England is a Native American but later the police identified him as being white. No mention of a mistake or a correction, just two conflicting reports. If you have some other source with more info please post it.

To Bill 1488 and Just Wondering, Regarding Treyvon since when a kid misbehaving in school indicate that he or she should be murdered???? A lot of people had terrible record in school including our former President,

Who become not only an upstanding citizen but the President of the United States. Lets look into every murder victim's school record lets see what all of them and us did as immature teenagers. Lets give ourselves and everyone whoever did stupid or irresponsible things as a Teenager the DEATH PENALTY.

How Incredibly absurb barbaric, grossly irrelevant and inhumane a concept this is so many of us would be

flat out murdered with no justice including us who have grown from teenage mayhem into loving responsible adults. Treyvon was not doing anything that night for this guy Zimmerman to get out of his car follow Treyvon, Create a situation were he would be able to use his gun, where he'd get to play cop, after being rejected from the police force. Zimmerman had two very relevant arrest one was assualt of a police officer , one was an arrest for abusing his ex wife in which she felt her life so threatened she filed a restraining order. The actual paperwork from both reports was shown not just heresay. Zimmerman created a situation were he would kill and created a story to go along with it. His daddy is a judge but I'm positive he has to know that his son is extremely unstable. We cannot condone this killer being out on the streets. It is a sociopathic choice to pursue and kill someone when you are in a safe place (his car) and was directed by 911 dispatcher (and neighborhood watch rules) as proven already, To call and wait for the authorities to arrive. Please lets put aside our hatred and help put away at best a extremely unstable human being. Who's next one of our children, his wife or ex wife, dont think it matters with someone like him if he gets off he will do it again.

Where's Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton??

Well lets see, the police did not release the shooter did they, if they did I think the both of them would be right there rightfully so.

@Backcountry, that is the exact line I am talking about. The way the sentence was constructed made me think there were two separate people of that name. In fact, there may be, because it has not been confirmed that the Jacob England arrested and the Jacob England in the court documents are the same person (that they share the same date of birth makes it more likely.)

noticed some wanted a public execution...oh well it's easter...

well the guy that killed shooter's dad got 4 years...he killed three...that would be twelve years on tulsa time...

Patriotic American U.S.A......"Hang them by the neck until dead, they didn't give the people they killed a trial !"

Here we go again, the Kanagroo Court has reared it's ugly head once again.

I wonder why MSNBC has failed to report the reasons why the Mayor of Chicago cannot go across the street from his office to get something to eat, or MSNBC fired one of their Producers for modifying the 911 call on the Martin Case ?

Kay77.....NOWHERE did I say that....Read my post,1.3.......I guess being on the side of the people who were shot,is a bad thing....I'll know better......DFTFT

and...tulsa's best known song is...get your cowboy hat on...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmMMCn4qSCo

Why not just charge these two with "pointing a gun"???? Damn man! This kid's dad gets killed by a guy, and they only charge him with "pointing a gun", and he's out in 4 years? No wonder this kid went on a shooting spree, probably figured he'd just be charged with "pointing a gun". Who's writing these laws in Tulsa?

they should be charged for pointing 3 times...three times four is twelve...divided by 2 for the number of pointers...6 years of living on tulsa time for each pointer...remember it's not nice to point...

4 years for killing somebody remind me to stay out of Oklahoma as much as possible.

Robert Eagle; you said, "Still no excuse, but ne just didn't decide that he didnt like black people because of their skin!"

Well he most certainly decided to kill these innocent Black people because of their skin- = hate crime. These people were innocent, yet he killed them because they were the same race as his father's killer? He's guilty of racism.

But, had he waited to kill Pernell Jefferson, the Black man convicted of killing his father, not even I would be stupid enough to call that racism or a hate crime. Hate crimes are carried out against a whole people- as these shooters are suspected of.

The killing was racially motivated

Also

Let me get this straight, they have the death penalty in Oklahoma right? So what kind of murder do you get four years in prison for? In regards to the person who killed England's father, was it manslaughter? If it was a fight how did the fight start and so on? I would be interested to know how his father was murdered. That does not justify what Jake England is accused of doing but I still would like to know.

AK Sabin

Agreed Robert, not only was his father killed, but th justice system only convicted the perp of "pointing a gun" and will be realease in a few years.

Yes, I thought that was a little strange, considering he killed the man.

Jennifer:Please remember the oft heard cry around here?

INNOCENT 'TIL PROVEN GUILTY?

Well the guy that killed England's father was not found guilty of Murder, nor manslaughter, he wasn't even found guilty of killing him- but it seems everybody around here has the man guilty of the killing. Clearly the court didn't think so, which leads me to believe that it was done in some sort of self defense (probably the kids father was the attacker); so that's probably why he is not convicted of the "body" - something eerily similar to what Zimmerman is claiming. That's may be why he's only convicted of aiming the gun.

I don't know, I am not testifying to it- it's just where the limited facts lead me so far.

"Innocent 'til proven guilty"

Mrperryrice

Something does not sound right to me either. Guess we will know or not but in the mean time, I am glad that these two shooters have been taken off the street.

Jenny- Just mark my words.

When the Zimmerman supporters see that the dead White guy in this case was the "attacker" and was killed for it, and the Black shooter was seen by the courts as the "victim" and not reponsible for the death because he acted in self defense- just watch all hell break loose! Ha-ha. They will completly swich their argument around to whatever does not favor the Black guy- in either case.

They buy Zimmerman's claim of self defense, but they won't buy the Black guys same claim. Ha-ha! Even though the courts have looked at the evidence and ruled in the Black guys favor. They won't buy it. I wonder why? Ha-ha.

Two white men shooting people at random, all victims black.

Just to clarify the younger man is Native American or American Indian. Of course all people with light colored skin are now considered "White" by this wonderful media of ours.

Do I think this is a hate crime? Yeah. It seems pretty evident when you figure in that the boy's father was killed by a black man.

So do we now quit posting "Get Whitey" and begin posting "Get Geronimo?" Because you know the only way to limit crime is to blame a group, not an individual.

It would help if the media reported accurate information about the shooters, especially their race. The country does not need another crime distorted by the media that fuels more hate in the public domain.

$40,000.00 a year.

WHAT! Another shooting in America, How suprising...... NOT!

The man, Pernell Jefferson, was charged with pointing a gun and is scheduled to be released in 2014, according to the Oklahoma Department of Corrections.

How is it that a man murders another man and gets 4 years for "pointing a gun"?

Just goes to show, the state, and it's law, are screwed up whether you're white or black. True, the monopolized state "justice" system is worse if you're minority, but here we see a black guy getting 4 years for "pointing a gun" when someone was shot to deah in a heated argument. That's aggravated murder in my book. Wow.

When the monopolized "justice" system of the state fails people they take matters in their own hands. In this case a mentally unstable guy who was mentally deficient (anyone racist is mentally deficient in my opinion) decides not to take it out on the killer (who is prison for 2 more years of a 4 year sentence...what a joke), not his family, but some random people of the same race. Sick, sad, and completely within the realm of prediction given the state's failure to solve the original dispute correctly.

This is never excusable or able to be rationalized...but it is predictable, unfortunately. End the monopoly on state "justice"...all monopolies (even your precious government's) lead to higher costs, lower standards of service (like beating people w/o real reprecussions, a murderer getting 4 years in jail, Trayvon's case being crappily investigated, etc.), and NO accountability for the service providers. No competition = we don't care, our customers our guaranteed.

Just couldn't wait for republican voter suppression laws to take effect huh?

Johnny N: "Those convicted, especially with DNA evidence shouldn't get so many appeals !"

Yes they should. We live in a civilized society.

"And stop the LIBERAL crap about putting to death even one innocent person"

Why? Because it obliterates ANY possible argument in support of the death penalty? Because it makes you realize your stance is wrong? Try this: Once YOU are willing to be one of the innocent people wrongfully executed, then us liberals will stop the crap about it. Well, actually we won't. It's still wrong to execute someone for something they did not do. Even if that means that murderers have to suffer life in prison WITHOUT parole. We will not accept the death of even one innocent just so that we can kill a few murderers.

hopefully he will get to be a cellmate...with the man that pointed out his dad...

Anonymous User said:

correction:Fry them, the sooner the better.

:-)

Sorry to point out yet another error, anonymous. But the electric chair does not cause anyone to be fried. There is no hot oil involved. Closer to accurate, would be "cook them without pre heating" or "saute them" perhaps. But first, a trial is needed, though they do "look guilty."

How is it that a man murders another man and gets 4 years for "pointing a gun"?

I was wondering the same thing. It may have been a plea bargain, because the defendant may have had a credible "self defense" claim, or perhaps there was too little evidence.

Of course it was racially motivated. I wonder, if'n a white man killt his paw, would he be shootin' white people indiscriminately? probably not. If the story was correct in that the young defendant was American Indian, there was more reason to hate the pale face.

Public executions wouldn't deter anyone from carrying out a crime that is punishable by death, at least not to a noticeable degree. Crimes that are punishable by death are the ones committed out of shear desperation, passion, or hatred for someone . Either way, they don't care if they're caught or don't think they will be caught.

The only thing that will deter crime to a significant degree is certainty of being caught and that is something we as a society cannot guarantee.

beanathome,

In Oklahoma, many Native Americans are virulently anti-Black. Of course, this is also true in Georgia, Alabama, etc. It is extremely common for Native Americans to be anti-Black and to put themselves down as "White" and to be in the KKK or other skinhead groups.

You are full of BS first of all Native Americans in Oklahoma are just that Native Americans, I know I work and hire people in Cushing, OK. Second you statement above is BS also I know for a fact both of these organizations go threw your family tree. They are not only racists against Blacks they are racist against Jews and any other race or mix of call "mud race" only White non Jewish men and women can join and that is if your blood line checks out, see they do not just permit you too join because you say I am "White" they want proof race that they want you to prove that you are "White". All you have to do now a days to see if I am right is go to these groups web sites and see for your self. How I know about this topic is I did a report on this when I was in collage, they were all to happy to help as they told me they thought it would increase there memberships. Third Zimmerman is Mexican and him and his father have clearly said that, the cops said he was White. as did MSNBC, the president and the Black leaders that are trying to make it about race.

Kay,

Regarding Treyvon since when a kid misbehaving in school indicate that he or she should be murdered???? A lot of people had terrible record in school including our former President,

I never said that because the kid messed up in school he should of been shoot, see you are putting words in my mouth just as you have rushed to judgement this case. It does not matter that he was kicked out what does matter is that the parents were lying when the said he was a great kid that was never in trouble, that is were that statementcomes into plkay it shows just how these parents will say anything to make there kid look like he is a great kid. If you actually read something other than MSNBC you might of realized this. What because you say it is murder, it is? They only have one witness in the case and it is very clearwhat he said happened "I saw the man in the black hoodie(Martin) on top of and hitting the man in the red shirt(Zimmerman) I went to call 911 and heard the shoot when I looked again the man in red(Zimmerman was now standing over the man in black(Martin)" it is very clear from that statement from the ONLY WITNESSas to what happened, in Floridaif you are being attached you can use deadly force if you believe your life is in danger.

So for all of you that have rushed to judgement on this case and made it about race are just as wrong as you say Zimmerman is, what about they Black leaders like Spike Lee trying to in-site racial violance needs too be arrested and before you say he was not trying to do that know that he tweeted what he thought was Zimmerman's address.

The bottom line is just as I don't you and know body else knows what happened except ONE PERSON THE ONLY WITNESS. You can rush to judgement all you what but intelligent people usually wait for facts and not opinions on such cases. The only facts we have are that no matter if he was told to quit following Martin or not it is not a crime if he did in fact keep following him. Second as it may be again neighborhood watch too say you cant CC (conceal carry) it was not against the law as he had a CC permit that aloud him too CC. Third the is as I said above only one witness that saw what happened. So we have too go on those facts and that is not murder when you take the witnesses statement into account. Now you might not like it but that does not matter as it stands he has not broken any law.

I found the article from: The Daily .... it may help explain his state of mind.

TWO TRAGIC DEATHS HAUNTED ACCUSED TEEN

By M.L. Nestel and Deborah Hastings

The shooting death of his father and the suicide of his fiancée seemed to unhinge Jake England, one of the two men suspected of gunning down a black woman and four black men in Tulsa.

His father, Carl England, 47, became Tulsa’s 11th homicide victim of the year on April 5, 2010, after brawling with a man who was beefing with his daughter’s boyfriend. It was a protracted fight that involved a stick, a baseball bat and a gun.

Pernell Jefferson, an ex-con in his 30s, allegedly tried to break into the apartment of England’s daughter. Her boyfriend hit Jefferson with the baseball bat; Jefferson bolted and returned with a handgun.

At that point, England whacked him with a stick. As Jefferson stumbled to the ground, he fatally shot England.

Cops caught Jefferson at a hospital, where he was seeking treatment. He was eventually convicted of firearms possession.

On Jan. 10, Jake England saw his 24-year-old fiancée Sheran Hart Wilde shoot herself. She was suffering from postpartum depression.

“He’s been through hell,” a close friend of Jake England’s told The Daily. “I know he felt lost and alone but we never expected anything like this out of him.”

lonereb,

The man who killed his father was charged with pointing a gun. He was not charged with murder.

My guess, he pointed the gun, the gun was grabbed by someone else, a struggle took place, the gun went off.

That is why he only got 4 years, it lacks intent to kill.

Tooooo funny! I mean absolutely hilarious!

I guess you just never know...........

I got a time out once, for agreeing with another poster, and saying something like "those people will never understand".......

:(

agreed ...

Interesting phrase: common sense. A cousin of military intelligence?

Thank God, this is over. Let the healing begin.

If the two arrested are the ones who committed the crimes.

*Big Rick704* Let's just say we hope it's over,that what we can say now.Please,God,send us healing.

I don't understand the statement "let the healing begin" or the statement "time heals all wounds". I do not believe you ever HEAL when you lose a loved one. Time may make the ability, for some, to cope and time may not help any at all. Sometimes when it is a close loved one - the latter is the truth.

Nevertheless, IF these are the two responsible - at least it will not cause any additional families pain by their stupid acts of carelessness and disregard.

It doesn't look like time has healed Jake England's wounds and if it was my Father that was killed time would not heal my wounds.

DAKOTALEE13--well, if your father is killed, I hope you would not react on the anniversary of his death by running around and shooting other people simply because they happen to have the same skin color as the person who killed (not murdered--he was only charged with "pointing a gun") your father.

It sounds to me like the father and the person with the gun were in a situation similar to that of Zimmerman and Martin--in which an altercation took place, and both were "afraid for their lives," and one had a gun. In Oklahoma, one cannot use the excuse that one "fears for one's life" (well, one couldn't in the past--Oklahoma does actually have a new law or two that complicate the matter--but it wasn't true a couple of years ago) and not get arrested or tried at all. Heck, in Florida, Zimmerman can't even be sued by Martin's family--there's that screwy law that even the law's authors are now seeing is being used as it was never intended to be used.

But, yeah, if anyone thinks that it is okay to run around shooting people just because they have the same coloration as the person who killed a family member of theirs--I hope they will go check themselves into an institution, pronto, as it doesn't sound like they are quite right in the head.

DAKOTALEE13

I assume though that you would not go out and kill three people, trying for five. I am hoping that you wouldn't do such a barbaric thing anyway. Do you know if the ones he shot were related to the murder of his father? You don't get over someone murdering you father by going out and becoming just like the ones who murdered your father. Unless you are insane.

Its over now for a man who lost his dad..and was driven to hate..as the article states..but that doesn't mean there are more like him who want to do the same for what they did to their dad.."EYE FOR AN EYE" in my book!

First of all Mike it says the guy was arrested for pointing a gun. Second there are many whites who have killed blacks in modern day and there are close to a million in dates ranging from 1950's till now with all the random hate filled lynchings and random hate filled rapes and murders of black women and little black girls. To the modern day killings derived from no reason besides the murderer did not like the victim skin color and could not accept someone who looked different than him or her. These guys were already filled with hate

and a hint to there upbringing who says the father was not also filled with hate, To kill random people this dysfunction had to go way back, Who says that the father did not also hate black people and passed this hate to his son. I am sure if his father was killed by this man it would not have just stated man was arrested for pointing a gun. Historically when a black man has commited a crime it is put forth clearly. Who knows how his father died or what circumstance. The media added this irrelevant point ,to insinuate that the father was killed by a black man. The black man could have just been in the vicinity pointing a gun in a totally different situation.Or even in same vicinity the story does not connect the two. Regardless if everyone who had a loved one killed and went out randomely killing people with the same skin color . NO ONE WOULD BE ABLE TO WALK THE STREET THIS IS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OF ALL RACES MURDERERS ARE ALL RACES. EYE FOR AN EYE MIKE? EYE FOR AN EYE IS HURTING THE INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBLE FOR HURTING OR KILLING YOUR LOVED ONE. IF IT WAS JUST ANYBODY WITH THE SAME SKIN COLOR. YOU WOULD ALSO BE A TARGET IF YOU ARE WHITE YOU HAVE THE SAME SKIN COLOR AS MANY SERIAL KILLERS AND OTHER MURDERES IF YOU ARE BLACK THE SAME APPLIES. HOW TOTALLY STUPID AND SICKLY IRRATIONAL YOUR COMMENT IS!

It seems healing the first time around didn't happen. These two don't seem to have healed by their posts. It seems the pain was still raw.Jennifer does anyone in Florida care who gets hurt. All I hear is a of of get Whitey talk coming out of there. And gee there are the ones saying get the Jews because of Z's name but I haven't seen a yamulka or star of David so I guess that's just racism but of course blacks can't be racist.

tex-4784:These things you've said are just plain wrong:

"Other reasons are that ONLY Whites are racist."

"ONLY Whites are charged with hate crimes."

Not true. (Please Google and confirm the following which proves you wrong).

Blacks arrested more for 'hate crimes';

FBI report confirms higher rate than whites for racial attacks.

So saying Black people don't get arrested for "hate crimes" is a lie; Black people get arrested for them more than you do.

So why does the lie keep getting repeated over and over "Only Whites get charged with Hate Crimes?" It's not true. Whites don't even get locked up the most for it. Google and find out.

Black Hate Crime Prosecutions will set you straight.

Obviously, it is the shooters fault; but there are always mitigating factors. That is the point I'm making.

The messengers don't kill people just like guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Yeah, people kill people...with guns.

People have been killing people long before guns.

Apparently one of the killer's father was shot and killed by a black man two years ago. Friday was the anniversary. So if the the Fla case had anything to DO with it, it was probably only circumstance.

Cullerco: You said

"Obviously, it is the shooters fault; but there are always mitigating factors. That is the point I'm making."

I disagree, because mitigating factors serve to lessen a person's degree of responsibility in their guilt.

These shooters are 100% responsible for choosing to carry out these shootings, they alone are responsible for what they did; and must be held accountable -(unless for some reason you've gotten "soft on crime" in this case?) Perhaps it's because you don't feel threatened and in need of your gun for this "kind" of gun crime?

In any event, media coverage they don't like does not mitigate or lessen their guilt. Neither does racial hatred (if race was indeed their motivation), that would only increases their guilt to the level of a "hate crime." Thank God they got caught. This type of foolishness can lead to anarchy -which is most likely these two fools aim.

Big Jim - "People not guns kill" is the most nonsensical piece of propaganda BS used to convince brainless twits. As if it was unknown that people, not swords, or knives, or spear, etc kill people. It is the ease of killing with a firearm which is the issue, and the proliferation of such weapons is why such tragedies exist. Even the most pathetic, cowardly fool can kill by pulling a trigger from a distance.

Earl-2198802

People have been killing people long before guns.

Just not as efficiently or with the prospect of so little personal damage to the killer.

I seriously doubt it. I think Oklahoma has its own and enough there to not let anything in Florida affect them (and unfortunately, other states as well). I think this is purely OK style racism (it it if race-related). If not and even still, I dont think it has anything to do with Trayvons killing.

Really?-4352273

Yeah, people kill people...with guns.

Oh enough with the anti-guns comments already. Do you actually think that with anti-guns laws these guys wouldn't have owned guns? Get real. With anti-guns laws only criminals will have guns, and honest people will be left defenseless.

Apparently one of the killer's father was shot and killed by a black man two years ago.

So if his father was killed by a white man a Chinese man or an Japanese man would they then have went into those neighborhoods and killed random people? That excuse is so lame it smells.

Mrperryrice

Mr. Culhealth for President!!!

I will not run for President until you get my name right! :)

And even then, I'm just not that crazy or masochistic or let alone competent to even consider being President.

@Really?-4352273

If you eliminated every gun in the world today, people would just find a different weapon. Cain didn't need a gun to kill Able, did he?

Guns save more lives than they take per year. 3x as many American die of the flu a year (33,000) than gun murder (11,000). Anti-gun rhetoric is based on a lack of knowledge on the stats and risks vs rewards. Game theory mathematics show undeniably how guns are a deterent to violent outcomes more than they result in violent outcomes. Just because they don't publicize those stories (because most don't end in a shooting) doesn't mean they aren't happening. Estimates range from 100.000 to 2 million lives saved a year from guns in the USA. I tend to think it's the lower number...but that's still more than the 11,000 gun murders by far. 75%+ of those murders were criminals bTW, not legal gun owners.

Does anyone (Culheath) really think you can put the technological genie back in the bottle? I bought banned extended clips LEGALLY during the assault rifle "ban". It's not like tyhey rounded them all up...they just banned further manufacture and retail sale.

Wake up.

There is a holocaust and murders happening every single day to homeless animals! Homeless dogs and cats are murdered more than 16K a day and humans are responsible. When will this killing stop? Please stand together and call your legislator and demand laws that restrict breeding and mandatory spay and neuter until every homeless pet has a home!

Apparently one of the killer's father was shot and killed by a black man two years ago.

If this is true, you've got to wonder if this crime was investigated as a hate crime. Or is it only possible to be a "hate crime" when whites kill members of another ethnic group?

SI

Does anyone (Culheath) really think you can put the technological genie back in the bottle?

Nope, but you can certainly regulate the technology to mitigate the potential for harm. That's why we have traffic laws and the need for certain drugs to be available only by prescription and proscribe personal ownership of nuclear weapons. You know, common sense...something the NRA and 2nd Amendment zealots seems incapable of.

You got me Mrperryrice. I'm a gun toter who's soft on crime.

Seattle Indie:

"Apparently one of the killer's father was shot and killed by a black man two years ago."

To which you said: "If this is true, you've got to wonder if this crime was investigated as a hate crime. Or is it only possible to be a "hate crime" when whites kill members of another ethnic group?"

To which I say: Anybody killing anybody because of their race is guilty of a hate crime; if his father was killed because he was White, then the perpetrators should be prosecuted and punished accordingly.

Culheath;

Counting all current gun regulation and control laws, (Federal, State, County, Municipal, and District of Columbia) that number is 27,734. More than the number of traffic laws combined. So, tell me, oh wise and all knowing sage, how many more unenforced laws will it take? What uninformed anti-gun zealots such as you fail to understand, apparently, is this, Laws only apply to those who Choose to abide by them. In an effort to gain an outright gun ban, these laws go largely unenforced. Much like the lack of enforcement of immigration laws.

Criminals have no compunction to obey the law, Ergo, the term criminal. I would like to remind you 84,650,000 legal, law abiding gun owners and their guns killed no one yesterday. Criminals did, with their stolen or illegally obtained guns. Are you aware a felon found in possession of a firearm is, under the law, supposed to be sent to prison for ten years for the mere possession? If said felon uses the gun in a crime add another ten years + 3X the normal sentence for said crime? No? I'm shocked, it been U.S. federal law since 1934. If you must scream about guns, at least scream for the enforcement of the laws under the National Firearms Act and all other laws currently in force, no matter what ethic persuasion the offender might be. Stop making excuses for criminals who would gladly kill you for the content of your wallet. Look it up, you'll find everything I post is true. The world is a colder place absent your rose colored glasses.

-Anna- I don't understand why people don't get this. If you look at the American cities where it's difficult for law-abiding citizens to get a gun for protection (DC, Los Angeles, NYC, Chicago), gun crime runs rampid in those cities (1) Because the crimanals are going to get illegal guns anyway and (2) These same criminals know they are more than likely perpetrating their crime on a defenseless victim. The banning of guns hurts decent citizens and empowers criminals.

Based on police reports from around the country, in 2010, close to 90% of instances where a lawful citizen pulled a gun in self-defense resulted in the situation being defused without a shot being fired.

@Mrperryrice yeah i know right...i dont know why people think blacks dont want other black tried for their crimes...and dont you think if the black man committed a hate crime that the judical system would have just let him off easy...I DOUBT IT

Anybody killing anybody because of their race is guilty of a hate crime...

Mrperryrice:

You are missing the point. While this may be your definition of what constitutes a "hate crime", clearly that is not how it seems to be perceived by law enforcement agencies or by the general public for that matter. When a white man kills a black man it is immediately assumed that race may have been a factor. That is not true when the situation is reversed and a black man kills a white man. This is the reason that everybody (with some help from the media) jumped to the conclusion that race played a role in the Trayvon Martin tragedy. So far, the facts in that case haven't supported that assumption.

My beef is that hate crime legislation is used exclusively for minorities against whites. This precludes the possibility that minorities can be motivated by racism, which is something we know is not the case. Take for example the bounty offered by the New Black Panther Party for the capture of George Zimmerman dead or alive. Obviously this was a crime and it was motivated by racism. Why isn't the FBI investigating this under federal hate crime legislation?

SI

@culheath...

"That's why we have traffic laws"

Which people ignore by the millions....

"and the need for certain drugs to be available only by prescription"

Which drug dealers sell on the street, and some people lie or steal to get prescribed drugs to abuse.

"and proscribe personal ownership of nuclear weapons."

Anyone willing to use a nuclear weapon will surely disregard laws forbidding it....

"You know, common sense...something the NRA and 2nd Amendment zealots seems incapable of."

Common sense, zealots, this kind of talk is what leads to hatred and violence! You are so intolerant of guns that you are disregarding the millions of law abiding citizens and their legally owned guns who did not commit a violent act.

Stop letting the media's sensationalizing violence coerce you into thinking that guns violence is common, it is just commonly reported. We have 6-7k homicides by firearm each year (per FBI), Aspirin kills about that many people....

Finally, the 2nd amendment is part of OUR Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is what protects us from tyranny and oppression, it is what gives you the right to say all of this stuff despite not having any knowledge of the facts. How can you speak against a document that gives you the right to speak? I would rather have my guns than allow you to have free speech, they protect whereas you are a threat to me and everyone around me. Luckily for you I understand the basic premise of democracy and rights:

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. ~Abraham Lincoln"

deleted

HeroWolf;

I can't tell if your being sarcastic or just woefully uninformed.

Yeah, people kill people...with guns.

And knives, and clubs, and cars, and etc.

Nicodemus1946

Culheath;

Counting all current gun regulation and control laws, (Federal, State, County, Municipal, and District of Columbia) that number is 27,734. More than the number of traffic laws combined. So, tell me, oh wise and all knowing sage, how many more unenforced laws will it take? What uninformed anti-gun zealots such as you fail to understand, apparently, is this, Laws only apply to those who Choose to abide by them. In an effort to gain an outright gun ban, these laws go largely unenforced. Much like the lack of enforcement of immigration laws.

Criminals have no compunction to obey the law, Ergo, the term criminal. I would like to remind you 84,650,000 legal, law abiding gun owners and their guns killed no one yesterday. Criminals did, with their stolen or illegally obtained guns. Are you aware a felon found in possession of a firearm is, under the law, supposed to be sent to prison for ten years for the mere possession? If said felon uses the gun in a crime add another ten years + 3X the normal sentence for said crime? No? I'm shocked, it been U.S. federal law since 1934. If you must scream about guns, at least scream for the enforcement of the laws under the National Firearms Act and all other laws currently in force, no matter what ethic persuasion the offender might be. Stop making excuses for criminals who would gladly kill you for the content of your wallet. Look it up, you'll find everything I post is true. The world is a colder place absent your rose colored glasses.

I am not an anti-gun zealot, I am an anti-NRA lobby zealot. Don't get confused.

Also, if you are pushing the proliferation of guns and the availability of firearms as they are in the States, explain the comparative low murder rate by firearm in Canada where firearms are much more restricted than here.

Here's another question on which you can enlighten me, if there are so many laws on the books about regulation of firearms, what causes them to go unenforced...liberals and anti-gun zealots?

Mankind has been killing each other ever since Cain rapped Abel on the head with a rock.

Seattle Indy:

By your posts I understand that your "beefs" are based on 4 fundamental falsehoods, and those lies are
dispelled by the following from the FBI and Census Bureau:

Blacks arrested more for 'hate crimes; FBI report confirms higher rate than whites for racial attacks (Please Google it and confirm)

So Seattle, here are you lies (and they are strategic, deliberately placed racial lies):

1). "hate crime legislation is used exclusively for minorities against whites.”

2) “This precludes the possibility that minorities can be motivated by racism.”

3)."When a white man kills a black man it is immediately assumed that race may have been a
factor."

-Which is patently false; as a jailhouse lawyer I've worked on more than a couple White guys' cases for killing Black men -none of their murders were "assumed" to be racially motivated,not even at the outset, the scene of the crime. I had their case files- so I know they were not.

4). You incorrectly think the following concept is just mine,
"Anybody killing anybody because of their race is guilty of a hate crime"; -no, that's not just my definition, it's the government standard, it's how they perceive it; and correctly so, I might add.

Just because the New Panthers haven't been arrested for the bounty on Zimmerman doesn't mean it wasn’t investigated (I don't know); and it definitely does not mean Blacks are immune from prosecution under hate crimes legislation, we get prosecuted under it more than you –the FBI and Census Bureau prove you wrong.

However since you and others have a problem with the Panther’s bounty? how about just going to the justice department with your grievance (like we’ve had to go with ours), and demanding an investigation?

How about protesting the foul bounty, and calling for justice? That would be better than getting on here littering the internet with your anti-Black political propaganda and lies, upsetting the whole damn country along racial lines, would it not? Take the New Panthers to the Justice Dept, & state you case. Yes, protest against the bounty (I won’t defend it!) and demand the justice department act!

Whatever you do please react to truth, stop telling the lie that our good hate crime statutes work only against Whites, and stop saying that White racism does not exist, and stop saying the people in Oklahoma were not targeted because of their race. If the shooters were out for revenge they would have waited and
shot whoever it was that shot his father (nobody would have accused him of a racial crime over that) because Getting the guy who killed his father would have been revenge –but shooting all those Black people in the street just because they were Black? That's different, that’s a racial hate crime.

Nope, but you can certainly regulate the technology to mitigate the potential for harm.

No you can't, because criminals don't follow laws.

I am not anti gun or anything, but would like to point out that all those illegal guns that criminals have, at one time were legal guns. Guns aren't created illegally as far as I know (atleast en mass). So that kind of puts a big hole in the "If guns were banned, only criminals would have them" arguement.

I AM SO glad the police caught them. Yes, they unlike the people they killed will get justice and they will have their day in court. The man who said "there are always mitigating circumstances" sounds like a Nazi. Maybe he is not but what kind of an idiotic statement is that when two white men go around shooting black people willy nilly victims they did not know. It is clear where on the political spectrum ANY insane apologist for these two excuses for humanity IF they did it, is.

Yes, they will get their day in our country's courts which is more than I can say about others. I believe Iowa has the death penalty which usually I am against BUT in this case IF found guilty it makes me want to change my mind. IN this case if those excuses for humanity are found guilty HANGING would be too nice an outcome. May they get their day in court and IF found guilty go to the hell they deserve! And by the way I am a Jewish white person who is in total solidarity with my African America brothers. This country's war against people of color MUST and WILL stop. Let's start jailing the banksters of Wall Street who are the REAL law breakers who dismembered our nation. Let others cease and desist making the money making jails fill up with tons of people who should NOT be there while the real culprits go free and become very very rich off the tax payer's dime!

baglady...you obviously/apparently have zero clue what a Nazi is. And, your post like most others on this foolish post, have again convicted someone based on what? What you read in the unbiased and completely accurate news? Notice the only thing the article says about those arrested? They were white. Not poor, not rich, not short, not stupid and my favorite...not yet tried!! If they are tried and convicted then hang 'em in the public court! But stop with the media fed fomenting of race-based hate. It MAY have led to this tragic spree...but I DON'T KNOW AND NONE OF US DO!! If we were all the exact same skin color then we would use height to discriminate, or sex, or hair length, or....

Here's a novel idea, how about someone's innocent until proven guilty? How about we ask "Did they get the right guys?" Kinda funny that those who espouse so much "justice" are willing to bypass the biggest majority of the justice system simply for blood.

As a black friend of mine told me who grew up in the midst of the race riots in Detroit(?) he said race was just an excuse for the violence, not the reason.

As a black friend of mine told me who grew up in the midst of the race riots in Detroit(?) he said race was just an excuse for the violence, not the reason.

I was living in Detroit on 12th St near Gordon park in '67, watching the riots go down and I can tell you that race was very much a prime ingredient. Your Black friend is correct in that some of the violence went beyond the race component, like burning down businesses that people owed money to. It was immediately after that war zone experience and the repression it evoked that I moved to Canada.

bagelm: There is no war against "people of color", and if there were, and body count means anything, they are winning. Get off of the race-train and join the human race. That garbage has been overused and no longer exists. Racism does exist - but, and this may shock you, it is on both sides. The majority of the people running around using that as an excuse for their bad choices and their wrong lifestyle have never lived in an era with true racism. When I was growing up I was poor as an alley dog, and I walked and walked and walked looking for a job - anything - when I was a teenager because I was hungry. I can only imagine how shabby I looked back then. No one gave me the time of day. Of course, I had no "excuse" to throw out there other than I was poor, and probably dirty looking. And, I don't know the difference between a "hate" crime and a "I-want-your-money-and-jewelry" crime, both victims are simply dead, regardless of the motive. So, get a new line bagelm, that one is old, outdated, and if you continue to use it, remember it isn't one-sided.

Culheath,

I've personally never been there. It was interesting hearing him describe the times from a black mans perspective. I'd wager that you could ask 10 people and get 10 different opinions.

Capt

Culheath,

I've personally never been there. It was interesting hearing him describe the times from a black mans perspective. I'd wager that you could ask 10 people and get 10 different opinions.

You are probably correct.

There is no war against "people of color",

My my my are you living under a rock or something? The right wingers hopes are a race based war between blacks and whites so they can eliminate people of color from this country permanantly. "The war" is not only physical violence but crosses all venues of society like financial opportunity etc etc etc.

Capt: You seem to cite what somebody told you (as though it is Holy Writ), "As a black friend of mine told me who grew up in the midst of the race riots in Detroit(?) he said race was just an excuse for the violence, not the reason."

Although I am opposed to the foolish rioters (it smacks of anarchy to me), I know from experience that you are wrong to assume your friend could speak to the motivation of each of the rioters, especially so if he wasn't even one himself. Racial tensions and frustrations was a large cause of those foolish riots, and of course the criminals as always jumped at the opportunity to do their crime. Your friend cannot speak for everybody, anymore than you or I could.

Mrperryrice,

Well said.

I can't help but laugh on this most holy day, Easter Morning. There is no war on people of color? How would you know? Because Fox told you so? Are you a person of color? Have you been affected in anyway by the bogus rules that are set up for people of color? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, NO I don't think you are and NO I don't believe you have been affected in any way. ( If I am wrong I humbly apologize).

There has been a war on people of color since the first slave set foot on these shores ( notice I said slave, because there were people of color that served and lived in the colonies amongst others with no problem). Before you get off on the tangent of "well your people sold them" let's move on to the fact that morally "your people" did NOT have to "buy" them. Which would have made the slave trade not very profitable. Back to the war on people of color, this has been going on for a very long time. It became low profile for a while, but the minute a person of color became a serious threat to become the leader of this country and then it happened, things really ramped up.

See I understand where that fear comes from. You thought that he was going to take away your guns, and then make you slaves. (That is how some of you think. How do I know, I watch my 80 something yr old white in laws have a cow every time the POTUS is on TV. Never mind the fact that their grandson, who is of mixed race has distinguished himself in the military.) So to try and calm some of your baser fears and paranoia, we don't want anything from you but to be able to work and live a decent life ( yes there are thugs of every stripe and we are no exception). I don't give a flying rat's tale what you have or how much. NO I DON'T want your hard earned rewards, what I do want is for you to allow me to make mine also and stop looking at me sideways when I have something that you think I got in any other way than to work for it and PAY for it with my HARD EARNED rewards.

Do we have that straight? Yes there are people that will try to game and live off of the system and I just like most people want to get them off the freaking dole and into a job, so that myself and every other hard working taxpayer can get a freaking break. But understand this, it is NOT only people of color that try to game the system (look at the doctor and his wife in Cali, now there was a true welfare queen).

Excuse for bad choices? Yes, maybe. But when you have schools being gutted year in and year out, when you can't get either parents or administrators to take into account the students needs, there will continue to be a huge problem. Don't believe me, then look up the all boys school in Detroit, where the kids walked out because they were being given A's for classes that they were not even attending! Too few books, not enough teachers, and do you know what those young males of color got for being pro active about their education? Suspensions!! Was that okay? Or did they deserve it because they were looking out for their own best interest? You cry all day about stop dropping out of school, stop trying to live the "thug lifestyle", but when they do, there is no one there except those children and their parents calling for action for their kids futures.

Help address the problems that we have in front of us RIGHT NOW. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. So piss or get off the pot, because we need to focus on the here and now and the reality of our human situation and condition.

Yes, I have guns in my home, yes I have a son that is a male of color, and yes I had to have the "talk" with him when he got to an age that he was out of my sight. There were two things that I drilled into my children growing up, 1) I will believe you and stand by you. 2) If you are arrested and you did it, you better get a lawyer, because I will not pay for your stupidity or criminal behavior. Now let the name calling begin.

TiredVoter-951582,

Too bad I can only vote your comment up once. Kudos.

@Tiredvoter, You are welcome at my Blues Jam anytime. Peace.

Yes, I have guns in my home, yes I have a son that is a male of color, a white daughter and yes I had to have the "talk" with him her when he she got to an age that he she was out of my sight. There were two things that I drilled into my children growing up, 1) I will believe you and stand by you. 2) If you are arrested and you did it, you better get a lawyer, because I will not pay for your stupidity or criminal behavior. Now let the name calling begin.

I had to fix it to show you how I raised my daughter. It's just good parenting TiredVoter.

TiredVoter-951582 @ #4.10

What an excellent post. Truly.

and

1SGFitzsWife4ID - Many of us practice good parenting which is what TiredVoter was saying as well.

The right wingers hopes are a race based war between blacks and whites so they can eliminate people of color from this country permanantly.

Talk about someone living under a rock.

this most holy day, Easter Morning.

most holy to whom? How did a discussion about shootings turn racist and then religious? As for christians though, does this rate holier than xmas?

As for the slave trade involving "people of color" - I agree. The slave trade has involved members of all colors - not just blacks. However blacks insist on ignoring the fact that other races have been enslaved also.

And in some places still are enslaved.Just because it ended here by 1865 doesn't mean it ended everywhere.

All,

Racism wasn't the prime motive apparently, it was revenge directed at the race (that is where racism comes in, but as a secondary factor) of the man who killed his father. That man received four years for pointing a gun, and none for murder. So, a "fair" justice system valued his father's killer's life more highly than the his father. The son wants payback and he kills innocent people. If the justice system had worked, perhaps three people wouldn't be dead. Where was the media cry for justice for the man's father? Was that killing a hate crime? That said, this is no excuse for the murders. Only, another case of questionable justice causing more violence and pain.

It begins with us - ALL of us!

Each one of us wants things to be different, but it has to begin with us in our own lives...even on these threads. Thinking with our emotions is always destructive. Allowing ourselves to be ginned up over anything is just plain stupid.

Granny,

Have to disagree on the motive issue. Manson et al had excuses but no real motive that I recall. Some people are just BAD.

her premise of our self-serving politicians is spot on; they care nothing about solving the problems and instead finding reasonable solutions that are beneficial to all, they spend their time trying to score political points with wedge issues. There's a huge problem with the elected leadership that puts ideology ahead of the common good.

Charles Manson had motive -the Book "Helter Skelter" has some of the Manson family speaking to a definite "motive" in their murder spree, and it was racially motivated in so far as Charlie's interpretation of Armageddon being kicked off by a planetwide race war against Whites (the evidence of which to Charlie was US conflicts in Asia, the several Black revolutions in Africa, and most importantly, the 1960s racial conflicting in the U.S.) which Charlie welcomed.

But he became frustrated with the ineptitude of the African Americans' to properly damage the White Power structure that Charlie hated, cause Black people were only burning down their own neighborhoods, which of course limited the White's retaliation. To correct this Charlie decided the Black folks needed a little instruction on who to strike, plus it would cause the Whites to strike back. So he ordered the hits on the Hollywood Elites, and tried to frame Black folks for it by writing Black Panther slogans like "Pigs!" in the victims blood all over the place.

Poor Charlie Manson- they couldn't find the bottomless pit beneath the desert to hide in after they committed the bloody deed- so the girls said that's how they got caught. That was Charlie's race based motivation for the Sharon Tate murders. Poor anarchist! even they have a "motive."

The haters are on the right w[ng of this country. They are the knuckle draggers. They are so affraid of the future when this country will be even more diverse. I served with some of them and watched as they left when they couldn't serve up their "justice" overseas. They work for triple c or blackrock now. Liberals react to the insanity of the right with outrage and anger. We don't spend our days hating and plotting like the right wing does.

Paul not seeing economic reality doesn't make you loving.We can take responsibility for the fiscal mess this country is in and direct the direction it goes. Or we can wait and let the laws of economics do it for us. The laws of economics do not care if you have kids to feed or need school clothes for. It will be chaos and our government will be five steps behind all the time. I have seen a currency rapidly devaluing. It is utter chaos.

Steve: And under certain circumstances, you could be one of the really stupid and evil people. As was said, it begins with us. Walk in another's shoes.

Steve, you are correct. Some people are just not right in the head. Humans just like all other animal species do not always replicate perfectly. We know there are diseases, genetic defects that affect us physically and things that happen during gestation and birth that affect us mentally. But, what causes otherwise healthy humans to live like savages? Is it nature or nurture? Humans are still in their infancy in this universe and somewhere in our genetic make-up there is evil that shows up in some people; is this predisposed? Will there be a time when all humans can live at peace with each other? Other than massive armies and massive police forces, what are we doing to try and figure this out? As for me I will continue to give all others the benefit of doubt and treat each with respect and care and until things change, I will continue to carry my CW.

Humans are a species with some basic flaws. We are obsessed with competition. Look at the huge sums of money involved in professional sports. Wars are celebrated. We are supposed to be the most intelligent lifeforms on the planet but yet the only way we seem to be able to settle differences is by killing each other. It has been that way since the beginning of recorded history. We know it, we study it, but we continue to do it anyway. We use our superior intelligence to invent new more efficient ways ways to kill more people. We will ultimately destroy ourselves.

Face it, humans are a violent species. It makes no sense to me. Imagine what we could accomplish if we could only learn to cooperate instead of competing.

Is there intelligent life out in the universe? I sure hope so because there sure doesn't appear to be much here.

sweet chariot...

yep - an arrest has been made now let the legal system do it's thing and not make it an issue for copy cats ....

Forget the investigation and facts. We need to race bait and stir up hate and violence. The county needs to be divided.

Yep I agree with Big Jim- first thing we need to do is allow Texas to seceed and then Rick Perry can be President of Tex ASS

Big Jim: I know your post is a snark. Hope others take it as such.

you have more faith in our law enforcement apparatus than I do and this is coming from a retired cop

keep informed, but turn down the temp...

FreeAir: -Fine comment!

earthgirl

Big Jim: I know your post is a snark. Hope others take it as such.

Well earth girl the post right above yours proves not to be the case ;)

Jim use your /sarcasm button next time ;)

Though I'm willing to believe that odb60 only saw the words "from Texas" and that was enough for him/her.

I believe there was a hint of corruption with the Tulsa Police and they may have been a little more than a passive observer ...

Hate crimes are investigated under Federal Law.

Hate crimes are investigated under Federal Law.

While it is true that Federal law does have hate crime statutes it is more than likely that the FBI was asked to help , All states have either specific statutes for bias intimidation/hate crimes or they have enhancements for crimes committed because of bias or hate, These individuals will be charged first with violation of Oklahoma's state laws in regards to murder/homicide Bias Intimidation/Hate Crimes unless they(Oklahoma officials) saw it beneficial to defer charges to the federal level which happens sometimes when the penalty at the federal level is more than what would be at the state level. The individuals can also be charged and tried at the state level and also charged at the federal level with civil rights violations.

Pcartier, If the local authorities asked, then the FBI can assist. If the Federal Government (AG Holder) wanted to push and force the FBI's involvement, then coming in under the "Hate Crime Statutes" justifies their involvement.

It would give multiple counts to try the individuals on. Some at the state level and some at the federal level.

I sincerely hope that they caught the individuals that committed the crimes and Tulsa can return to "normal" and not have an escalation of tensions from these acts. Let the authorities conduct their investigations, collect the evidence and prosecute. And the media must give the "cooler heads" a chance to prevail and not fan the flames for monetary gain, but I am becoming more cynical and expect the media to push all kinds of theories to keep the flames going.

My deepest sympathies go out to all of the families involved!

Perhaps the local police department wanted to solve this quickly, and bringing in several other agencies, and acting in cooperation with each other appears to have done this. The FBI, being a national organization probably is better equipped (more resources), to help. Why not? Our taxes pay for the FBI, so use them and any other federal organization to solve crime. This was a very quick resolution: if as many have stated that they have the actual perp.s, now is time for them to finish gathering the evidence and the courts to take over.

wrong

I hope not - if the media does try to spin this, justice will be properly served ...

Really? -Bingo!!! Somebody already on here just tried to "mitigate" their acts. Citing media coverage.

The media just gives out false info by omitting dialog. It is very difficult to get an unbais story from MSNBC. Just like MSNBC editing part of the 911 tapes from the Zimmerman thing.

To make the long story short, they ended up dropping charges against officer Dorian and later blamed the shootings on a robber who also had a white pick-up truck and was shot to death by a bystander in an unrelated robbery,

Eddie: After reading your post I was curious and I googled Dorian's name. You didn't just make a long story short, you cut out a whole bunch of FACTS and made it sound as though the prosecuting attorney just dropped everything because this guy had been a cop. You failed to mention, in your shortened version, that they proved he wasn't the shooter before dropping the charges.

You need to not just throw out willy-nilly statements like that, especially when you KNOW your abridged version leaves out a whole bunch of facts. If we can just make up things, how do we know YOU aren't the real shooter and are trying to divert attention from you and keep it on that Dorian guy?

Just sayin'.....

okay greenbeagle, I don't know about the Illinois case but I do know about something similar so regardless of what the media prints or rumors of vehicles, color of suspects etc. there is always a possibility of mistake. I tend to believe that they got the right people but I personally don't know....just like no one on this site knows. I posted the following on a prior story & I stand by it. My point is to stop making assumptions that the media reports things 100% correctly, it could cost you.

I have a few short observations and opinions to throw out there. The hate crime issue is so moronic...Anytime a murder is committed it's a hate crime, people don't kill because they like someone. It doesn't matter what color or sexual orientation they are. And as far as all the speculation about it being a white man in a white truck, that scares the hell out of me because that exact statement was made in Baton Rouge LA 9 years ago and it could have cost me my life. Derrick Todd Lee was a black man that showed up on my front porch in St. Francisville LA, I wasn't scared because he wasn't white and I didn't see a white truck. If my son had not been laying on the sofa in full view of the front door, my complacency toward this person could have ended it all for me. Rumors of people who ASS U ME they know something because of their bitterness towards another race can cause the death of more innocent people. Let's stop the BS people

the police were on those rednecks side

No hate or bias in your statement is there, Any credibility you had went out the window with that comment

its very easy for u sitting pretty on ur chair in ur house saying that,I'll tell u what,there is nothing u can say that will change my attitude toward those bastards,no one deserve what we witnessed in that state ,they are cruel, ugly,mean and sadly pretend and think that Jesus was a redneck. i know ur heart is full of love,not mine my friend,Americans were good to me but Oklahoma is not America,its hell on earth.

allen-ram: Oh boo-f'ing-hoo.... Welcome to planet Earth. I wonder what your (that's how you spell it) part was in all of that mean stuff? There is always Side A, Side B, and then somewhere in between, the truth. You sound a bit biased yourself, so I doubt you are so innocent in whatever "travesty" went on there. And, by the way, I doubt the other guy was saying anything to change "your attitude" because I doubt he really cares about your attitude. I certainly don't. By the way, it is obvious your heart is not full of love - you don't have to state the obvious.

I'm sorry about misspelling the word "your" and writing it "ur",obviously you are a smart guy,second I'm sorry if i insulted you by using the word redneck,third why do you expect me to forgive,finally never teach a victim how to scream.

again and again,no one done me good than the beautiful USA,its the country that i will never hate and I'll always miss but not Oklahoma.

There are black, white, republican, and democrat people? I live where? America? I've never heard any of this! Why didn't someone tell me!

Yep, see here we go, turning it in to a race crime. I am starting to believe there is no way around this, if someone of color is shot, they are automatically going to pull the race card. Must be a financial endeavor......

You did not read or finish the "GOOD BOOK". An eye for an eye, "vengeance is mine" said the LORD.

God Bless America AGAIN !

that's the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the Christian based version that holds to Jesus teachings, I believe it was more "turn the other cheek" ...

Earl- likes another poster said, even if we were all the same "color" we'd find other reasons to hate and kill eachother, sadly I believe him/her.

@Dil,

You're probably right: if someone of color is shot its probably not the "race card". It's probably more of a race thing if, say, five people are shot and they all happen to be of the same the ethnic group, and that ethnic group is not the one the shooter belongs to, and he refers to those people by a racial slur on his website. In that case it may be racial, but if white people think its not about race its not because they are the experts on race (having invented the social construct and all, and having cultivated the institution for the last 400 years or so. That's what Locke calls "creator's knowledge")

While the 1% peacefully sleep, the rest of us run for our lives.

LOL...I knew someone would try to bring politics into this...FYI, I am not part of the 1% but I slept peacefully last night and the night before, I did have a headache thursday night so I took a couple aspirin and after an hour or so I was able to sleep peacefully.

Violent crime rates are in a downward trend, The reason you think they are higher is because of the constant 24/7 availability of media coverage, Crimes like this have always happened it is just that we are more aware of them now because we have continious media coverage via TV ,Internet,Twitter,Facebook and whatever else

It's called "divide and conquer".

It's called "divide and conquer".

LOL...when you get rid of all the rich people the only thing you will have is poorer poor people. Just keep telling all those poor people that things will be ok...oops we ran out of other peoples money now what we will we do!

Now...Back to the story...If these guys are tried and found guilt then sentence them to the max allowed by law, My condolences to all the victims families

Classism memes aren't knowledge or philosophy...wake up, please.

As I wrote, on many different levels, our lives are imploding. Crime is only one area of concern. The 1% are not worrying about their own survival like the unemployed, the working poor, or the underemployed in our country are. 'Divide and conquer' sums the situation up very well, thank you, cul.

With respect to your peaceful sleep, Lost, apparently the only limit to denial for some is meeting up with the person that's had enough.

...Yea, Great job following a "TIP" called into them. Glad they followed the tipster..

God Bless America AGAIN !

Time to take away the toys for the good of society.

By toys I assume you are referring to firearms, So after we eliminate all firearms then do we go after knives and forks, Ropes, Baseball bats,Cars and trucks, Medicines...That is a slippery slope and one that we should not go down.

Tell me about more than a 10 spree killings performed with any of those implements. For every one of those, there are probably 500 that are done with guns. You're just making excuses, and you know it.

I will tell you a story of over 3000 people killed on September 11,2001, They were killed by men armed with nothing but boxcutters.

We can also talk about the 1930's-40's Germany where millions were killed with gas chambers and ovens, Russia, China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Africa...should I continue

LOL...History shows us repeatedly what can happen whena government disarms its populace, The deaths from tyrants far excede any random killings by individuals

LostInThePineBarrens

I will tell you a story of over 3000 people killed on September 11,2001, They were killed by men armed with nothing but boxcutters....

...and a plan, religious fervor and a couple of big planes.

Now tell us about the 100,000 Iraqi civilian killed by firearms and no box cutters...

I see LostInWhatever. You're just going to say absurd things that are irrelevant to this topic. When you start comparing spree killings to the holocaust and 911, you've lost the argument. Take care.

You're just going to say absurd things that are irrelevant to this topic

LOL...You used this story to further your anti firearms agenda, On 9-11.01 they used boxcutters not firearms to gain control and ultimately kill over 3000 people, The holocaust happened because Germany disarmed it public and people blindly followed their government thinking it could never happen to them, The thought they would be safe, They started with the jewish people and then went for the other etnicities that did not fit their perfect Aryian mold. In all the instances I mentioned except 9/11 the peoples of those countries were disarmed and their governments then murdered them, That is the point of my counter argument to your desire for gun control.

and a plan, religious fervor and a couple of big planes.

Now tell us about the 100,000 Iraqi civilian killed by firearms and no box cutters...

I see you conveniently left out improvised explosive devices made many times from common components, using things like nails, stones, marbles,nuts and bolts used to kill not only US and Allied forces but innocent civilians simply because they are of a different religion.

My point was that eliminating firearms will not eliminate hate and violence.

My point was that eliminating firearms will not eliminate hate and violence.

Though it will reduce the potential for expression of it.

No one is calling for a complete ban or elimination of firearms, just sensible regulation of them, which we do NOT have in any reasonable measure today thanks to the zealotry of the NRA and 2nd Amendment solutions types who seem to exist in a world based on paranoid delusions that their lives are constantly in danger at every turn. Most of us do not live in that world and can see the paranoia for what it is.

Readily available firearms are part of the cycle of violence and do not represent a solution to it.

Lost in the Pine Barrens, and other gun toters, when in the last time you heard of a drive by knifing, forking, batting or roping? Only guns allow killing from a distance, be that a foot or several yards. The other 'methods' you mention involve getting up close and personal and give the victim time to get out of the way, or a bystander a chance to intervene. And let's not start the usual........ 'if I were there, with my gun, for which I have a permit to carry, I would have shot the shooter and all would be well in the world. You were not there, you will not be there, and chance are, if you were, your gun would be stuck in your pocket, or where ever you have it concealed.

Now tell us about the 100,000 Iraqi civilian killed by firearms and no box cutters...

Riiiiight, that's exactly the same thing as civilian gun owners who legally own weapons and kill someone .011% of the time (1/100th of a percent).

And bombs didn't kill any of those people.

BTW, 130,000 dead in 10 years (stat last year) of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan....that's 13,000 a year. 33,000 Americans die a year of the flu. 11,000 gun murders in the USA a year.

The flu is nearly 3 times as deadly as our 3 front wars, and IS 3 times as deadly as gun murder in the USA. War is shaping up to be life in a ghetto in terms of death risk (to the enemy, our guys died way less).

ALSO...your Obama is a war criminal same as Bush. He signed NDAA indefinite detention, drone surveillance before we commit crimes, domestic surveillance w/o warrnats, wiretaps w/o warrants, assasination of USA citizens w/ no judicial review, and torture continues...

...and you're worried about .011% of gun owners killing someone (which that stat is overinflated because 75%+ of those murders aren't the 100,000,000 legal gun owners...they're criminals not in that stat).

So, that number gives YOU the benfit of the doubt by an overestimate for simplicity of 75%+.

Care to tell me why the 99.989% of lawful nonviolent gun owners should not have guns because less than 25% of .011% kill people in murder in the USA?

Because you're a statist, that's why. A sadistic statist who loves tyranny as long as it isn't on him. You have no ethics worth speaking of, only ideology w/ a lack of overall philosophy.

LOL...how long have you been an NRA member?

LOL...how long have you been an NRA member?

LOL...You say that like the NRA is something evil,Are NRA members not citizens of this country, Do they not have a right to band together to fight for their rights as protected under the constitution, I know it makes it so much easier when you can simply just say "The NRA " and it sound like some evil conspiracy...fact is they are citizens of this country just as you are...well maybe not...you did say you moved to Canada...did you renounce your citizenship, Does not matter...you are entitled to the same protections as any other person who lives here.

Pro, President Obama is a war criminal same as President Bush? I don't remember Obama going to war over a LIE, maybe you need to refresh my memory on that one. Signing into law to stop 'home grown terrorists' and holding them 'indefinitely' doesn't literally mean forever and doesn't interfere with a regular every-day person's rights. You talk drones flying over the U.S., how about all the phone/computer tapping done under Bush's Administration, you forget that so easily? Assasination of any 'U.S. citizen' who has become a known terrorist and have denounced their citizenship by JOINING a terrorist group in ANOTHER country and provoking terroristic acts, and you see somethign wrong with that? Or the fact that the Bush's and Bin Laden's family has had ties for the last 20+ years concerning something called the Carlyle Group, and you see nothing strange about that? Can you give an example why automatics such as AK's and M16's are needed by John Q. Public other than the usual NRA banal conceptions? The NRA should be giving thanks and donating to President Obama's campaign fund for the uptick of gun sales and 'militia's' in America, which has been at an all time high these past 4 years thanks to the Militia Act of 1792, instead of tossing lie grenades that he is hell-bent on banning 'guns.' Nah, that won't happen in a GOP world.

LostInThePineBarrens

LOL...how long have you been an NRA member?

LOL...You say that like the NRA is something evil,Are NRA members not citizens of this country, Do they not have a right to band together to fight for their rights as protected under the constitution, I know it makes it so much easier when you can simply just say "The NRA " and it sound like some evil conspiracy...fact is they are citizens of this country just as you are...

I was actually aiming that question at ProIndividual, but since you chimed in...The NRA is the wealthiest and most active lobbying group in the country. In some respects they ARE evil, insofar as they want their 2nd Amendment principles adhered to no matter what the practical cost.

I doubt many of the NRA members can be cast as evil but the organization and it's effect on the American social landscape certainly has led much consternation for the rest of us that are not "gun crazy" and have a less zealous understanding of the 2nd Amendment.

well maybe not...you did say you moved to Canada...did you renounce your citizenship, Does not matter...you are entitled to the same protections as any other person who lives here.

I've lived in central Florida for about a decade now.

(Clapping My Hands)

Don't forget Rawanda, I think the number was around 500,000 and they used knives, clubs....

because they couldn't afford or get firearms..what do you suppose the final total killed would have been if it had been otherwise?

.The NRA is the wealthiest and most active lobbying group in the country. In some respects they ARE evil, insofar as they want their 2nd Amendment principles adhered to no matter what the practical cost.

To you they are evil, To mmany they are a necessity to give a voice to those who fight against those who would erode the rights of the law abiding citizens of this country and again the wealth of the NRA comes from the citizens who voluntarily contribute to it.

I doubt many of the NRA members can be cast as evil but the organization and it's effect on the American social landscape certainly has led much consternation for the rest of us that are not "gun crazy" and have a less zealous understanding of the 2nd Amendment.

Personally I am not a member of the NRA but I used to be, I know people who are and people who are not, I know people who agree with the NRA and people who vehemently oppose it, The fact is the NRA is dedicated to preserving my rights as guaranteed under the second amendment, They act very much like the ACLU does in protecting other rights, I do not always agree with the positions of both but I am thankful for both, I would not like to live in a country where the citizens did not have the absolute right to band together to fight to have their voices heard and their rights fought for.

We are probably more alike than different in many of our views it is just the details where we disagree

We are probably more alike than different in many of our views it is just the details where we disagree

Could be.

You are correct dil@yboze. We must learn to get along and love each other. We are all the same inside. We should be as little children, they could care less about color, they just love. I am a woman of color and I just had to comment.

Why are we trying to make this into a racial thing?

From Daily KOS:

On Friday around 10pm, England posted on Facebook: "Chilling at that house people talking s** on me for some s* I didn't do lil man and cady I_'s here I do believer it just mite be the time to call it quits I I hate to say it like that but I'm done if something does happen tonite be ready for another funeral later" Late Friday England posted to Facebook: "Woke up late bout to head my a* to work get everything off my mind."

Last Thursday around 3pm, England posted, "Today is two years that my dad has been gone shot by a f*** n** it's hard not to go off between that and s---- I'm gone in the head.
RIP
. Dad and s_ I
. Love and miss u
I think about both of u every second of the day"

Racism and revenge.

Racism and revenge.

culheath:

Actually, just revenge. Are you saying if the guy who killed the shooter's father had been a white guy the shooter wouldn't have probably posted... "a cracker, trailer-park-livin-white-trash-honkey-a$$," ... after shooting him? Would you have called it "racism and revenge" then?

The way the hate crime laws are written in California, if you commit a crime such as vandalism or crimes against a person and you indicate it is race related by writing or saying the "N" word in the commission of the crime, it is a hate crime and increases the punishment.

If it is true that this is the same person that submitted that Facebook post and he used the "N" word, it could be considered a hate crime.

The greater crime here is the crime against humanity!!!!

greenbeagle13

Racism and revenge.

culheath:

Actually, just revenge. Are you saying if the guy who killed the shooter's father had been a white guy the shooter wouldn't have probably posted... "a cracker, trailer-park-livin-white-trash-honkey-a$$," ... after shooting him? Would you have called it "racism and revenge" then?

If the shooter had been Black? Yeah.

It probably is race...as a matter of fact, it's not rush to judgement to suppose it (I instantly also supposed it).

But using this as a source of news is like me using FOX news and swearing it isn't bias:

From Daily KOS

I'm not saying what you listed wasn't factual...I won't as hominem the source....but that site is proaganda load of crap everytime I read an story BESIDES the one you just referenced. It's like watching the ED Show w/ Ed Schultz on economic points...he's a liar or just plain insane.

It's like watching Bill O'Reilly for his "moral" points on why drugs should remain illegal and black people really are criminal by nature (he is a big ol' racist isn't he?)

The less we go to left and right wing sources the better. Hell, you'd be better off not reading the news. I am most of the time. It's all a bunch of propaganda.

I won't ad hominem the source....

But then you do anyway...

You strike me as an intelligent Libertarian with paranoia issues. I agree with you that all news should be viewed with healthy skepticism, but there is a point where blanket condemnation itself becomes unhealthy.

I can see revenge but not so much racism culhealth, from what you posted dude was jacked up in the head period, I fully believe had the person who shot his dad and whoever lil— is, been white, green, or purple, they would've gone after white, green, or purple people. His facebook rants with his usage of "ebonics" would be my cite.

Is it just me or does one of the two WHITE shooters look Native America? Just saying. It’s really starting to seem to me that according to the News if you’re not black you HAVE to be White. Where’s the investigative reporting, you know hunting down the truth?? But hey Media if you can't make it into some sort of racist controversy then how are you going to pay the bills, it’s that right MSNBC.

This is a crock of crap. If this guyss father had been killed by a white guy it's insane to assume he would have gone out and shot random White people in the street.

And if a Black person shot up a bunch of White people because they were the same race as his father's killer, he'd be charged with racism (as damn well he should)- especially by the racists on this post. There's no mitigating circumstances here, racism is real; no need to put our heads in the sand and deminish it with this foolish talk of "revenge." The revenge was targeting people on the basis of their race. Revenge would be going after his father's killer, not anybody in the Black race.

Get honest- re have racism problems still.

HEy Mary.. From a gun toter to an obvious kool aid drinker.. It is because of my legally owned gun that mysef and my children are alive today.. When that young man broke into and attempted to rob my home, and God only knows what else it was myself and my gun that put a permanite stop to it.. 1 less scumbag in my community.. How about it.. Would you have me give up my second admendment rights so the scumbag could use his illegal gun to harm and rob my family??? Well let me tell ya something.. It will be a cold day in He** before you see me give up my weapons!!!!