In another report is said the England was upset because his father was shot and killed by a black man and that he wasn't tried for murder..........well the evidence showed that his father attacked the black man during an argument and that he killed him in self defense.........so the system worked fairly if that was the case.

Idiocy is color blind.

nobody Likes to be ATTACKED !! with that said, there is an awful; Thin Legal Gray Line in Disputes/ self defense..sure a cop wouldn't take b/s or injury..most quote; would be Justified with their Actions..bottom line; CraZy as*ed world we live in.........

jeeesus, you are very difficult to understand, and always have been.

Black man attacked - kills attacker White attacker in self defense GOOD. White Hispanic (whatever the hell this is) kills black attacker - Bad. No racism here. Move along.

White Hispanic (whatever the hell this is) kills black attacker - Bad. No racism here. Move along.

No evidence that Zimmerman was attacked by Trayvon. All we have is evidence that Zimmerman was in a fight, and the only other witness to the fight is dead. But of course Zimmerman would never lie to avoid arrest, would he?

Michael, there is both evidence and eye witness to Tray beating Z. What we don't know is the sequence of events or all oif the detail (such as, did Trayvon go for the gun or not, was Z returning to his vehicle when attacked or did he attack Tray and get his butt kicked, etc) I guess you can go through making it up as you go in order to believe what you want to believe.

I swear I thought this thread was about the 2 OK. men confessing to what they did. So, why in the world are you discussing the Martin case?!?!? Stay focused!!!

You said focus, ha, focus is for crazies.

I swear I thought this thread was about the 2 OK. men confessing to what they did. So, why in the world are you discussing the Martin case?!?!? Stay focused!!!

You must be new to the Internet. :P

This is a great example of why all racists are complete morons. See what happens when you make generalizations about people? England lumped all black people so tightly together that he could no longer differentiate one from another. And now he will go to prison for the rest of his life (however long that may be), and his father wasn't even avenged!!!!

The dude that killed his dad is still walking around free and England is the one that will be serving time. If he weren't such a brain dead, ignorant a-hole he would have used that murderous rage to go after the actual killer, not a bunch of randoms.

See kids, that is what happens when you are dumb enough to be racist!

P.S. I could care less WHY England's dad was killed or if it was in self defense. The fact is that England felt revenge was justified and carried it out in the most wasteful, stupid way possible.

Black people attack and kill white people all the time but it's not called a hate crime, it's just called crime. But, if it happens the other way around, well the media just Love to sink their teeth into that and it is blared all around the world, giving a false perception of what America is like. What happens to a non-black person that goes in a black neighborhood? Most already know they Can't go near or through a black neighborhood, city, etc.!

Mr. England confessed for the good of his soul.

A secondary good is that it helps society heal.

Because he confessed he is less likely to be executed.

The USA is one of the only western societies that still have the death penalty, and by far the highest murder, and shooting rate. The death penalty does not work! you just put bad guys out of their misery and they are never really held accountable. When a person has that much hate in them to take another life deliberately, they don't care if they live or die.

So, then we should do away with the death penalty and allow these people free room, board and all kinds of education and entertainment law abiding citizens on the outside do not have access to? Perhaps if the appeals process were shortened to 30-60 days maximum, then perhaps we may see a decrease in violent crime.

Elizabeth,

Not talking about the death penalty, i am talking about the totally ridiculous practice of protecting one or more particular "type" of scum, from another particular group or "type" of scum.

if more of this kinda scum knew what was awaiting them, dont ya think they would think abut things a bit more?

So you think people who are willing to drive around murdering people at random for revenge or racial profiling are thinking about consequences like what will happen in jail? Not a chance. And the fdeath penalty is proven to be no deterrent either.

Kanard

So, then we should do away with the death penalty and allow these people free room, board and all kinds of education and entertainment law abiding citizens on the outside do not have access to?

free room and board all kinds of education and entertainment? Where do you people get these Walt Disney ideas about what being in prison is like?

Perhaps if the appeals process were shortened to 30-60 days maximum, then perhaps we may see a decrease in violent crime.

Yeah and an incredible increase in innocent people being put to death so you can save, what a nickle personally?

I frequently read a post about how 'cushy' it is in prison in this country, and, too, often wonder if the poster has ever actually THOUGHT about what prison is.

How can anyone think, let alone believe, that being incarcerated is some kind of picnic? Personally, I can't think of much worse than being locked up for even a day, let alone 40 years.

As for the death penalty....taking a person's life is wrong, whether done by an individual or by the state. Only savages would consider the DP to be part of a civilized society.

Not to mention that you get up every day not knowing whether you're going to stabbed or beaten to death for some petty infraction of prison gang rules of conduct. A real picnic.

"And the fdeath penalty is proven to be no deterrent either."

Culheath - not true at all. In every case that the death penalty has been applied, that person will never, ever murder anyone again. 100% deterrence. Will it deter others? Maybe, maybe not. But each individual is responsible for their actions.

MBC, I respectfully disagree. The death penalty does the ONLY thing that adequately protects society. It removes the criminals from the ability to kill (or rape) again. If the anti-death penalty mindset prevails, the killers are free to kill again. "but wait, they are in prison for life".... Statistically, no they aren't. Changes in social attitudes, new laws, escape, parole...etc. Killers have been freed, and have gone on to kill or commit other crimes after being freed.

If a person is a judge or juror, or representative of the parole/penal department that votes for, or rules for the release of killers, and then that criminal murders someone's loved ones: You ought to be executed immediately. You ought to sign an agreement before passing judgement or allowing leniency that calls for your execution if the inevitable occurs. Because to vote against the death penalty and facilitate another murder makes you an accessory to murder. Or murders! How many deaths are required for you to puff up with false righteousness and "be against the death penalty"?

Killing is always wrong? Someone comes after your family, and you step aside and allow them past? Defending your life, your family's lives, the lives of innocents, you are in a war defending your country and killing is wrong? Even the 10 commandments say "You shall not murder" (NOT "you shall not kill" as is popularly supposed.) Killing a murderer is not just right, it is required.

So, I guess I am a Savage. And proud. If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night to bring harm to my family and me, They are going to lose their lives.

DJ5176

"And the death penalty is proven to be no deterrent either."

Culheath - not true at all. In every case that the death penalty has been applied, that person will never, ever murder anyone again. 100% deterrence.

Whether they were innocent or not, eh? Collateral damage, you say. As long as it's never you or yours, right?

Will it deter others? Maybe, maybe not.

There's no maybe about it.

Criminologists' Views on Deterrence and the Death Penalty

A recent survey of the most leading criminologists in the country from found that the overwhelming majority did not believe that the death penalty is a proven deterrent to homicide. Eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent to homicide, according to a new study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology and authored by Professor Michael Radelet, Chair of the Department of Sociology at the University of Colorado-Boulder, and Traci Lacock, also at Boulder.

Similarly, 87% of the expert criminologists believe that abolition of the death penalty would not have any significant effect on murder rates. In addition, 75% of the respondents agree that “debates about the death penalty distract Congress and state legislatures from focusing on real solutions to crime problems.”

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-about-deterrence-and-death-penalty

Steve the dog man

MBC, I respectfully disagree. The death penalty does the ONLY thing that adequately protects society. It removes the criminals from the ability to kill (or rape) again. If the anti-death penalty mindset prevails, the killers are free to kill again. "but wait, they are in prison for life".... Statistically, no they aren't. Changes in social attitudes, new laws, escape, parole...etc. Killers have been freed, and have gone on to kill or commit other crimes after being freed.

So you say...got a link to that sort of statistics?

You say you what to protect society? So I guess that must include that part of society that might be wrongly convicted then and you certainly would want protected from the state's killing machine, right? Murder is murder. Revenge killings by citizens individually or collectively by the state are equally murder.

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (KTHV) - A female correctional officer was killed today by an inmate at the East Arkansas Regional Unit in Brickeys. According to spokesperson for the Arkansas Department of Corrections Shea Wilson, Sgt. Barbara Ester was stabbed to death by male inmate Latavious Johnson, after she noticed that he was in possession of a pair of tennis shoes that weren't issued by the ADC. Johnson has been in prison since 2001, serving a sentence for first degree murder out of Jefferson County. He has moved to the maximum security wing at the prison, pending transfer to Varner Super Max.

Plenty of other examples out there. Fastest way to get out of the general prison population and into Ad Seg is to kill someone, especially a correctional officer.

Steve, if a person is locked up for the rest of their lives, they aren't free to kill again, and most states have life without parole for First degree murder. The rest of your rant is asinine. So much for personal responsibility, eh? The whole argument for the death penalty was that it would deter those crimes, it does not and is ineffective. And, no the original 10 Commandments said "Thou shall not kill." It was changed to "Thou shall not Murder" in the King James Bible.

they aren't free to kill again

Does not mean that they won't. There have been contract murders in Super Max facilities.

Yes, this is true. But at least in their, they are usually killing other convicts.

Generally true I think, but the point of that was that murders can and do take place even in the most secure of facilities and it is not always an inmate. Google correctional officer killed and see what you come up with. Once the death sentences has been carried out that murderer won't murder again.

That still isn't a deterrence though. The whole deterrence is that it will deter other people from committing murder.

It's true that people have been condemned to death who truly didn't commit the crime. We all know that. The "Innocence Project" has helped a # of them, through DNA evidence, to be released. Not all murder convictions should see the death penalty. Some are questionable. Although convicted, there was no "smoking gun" no witnesses.

But in the case of these two guys. DEFINITELY. In the case of someone who rapes and murders a child, or an old woman where there is DNA evidence proving the guilt. YES.

Is the death penalty a deterrent? No. But it will certainly stop THAT person from ever killing again.

We have to remember the victims. They deserve justice.

These guys shot the people because they where black, pure and simple. It's not he death penalty, its the ability for mentally and emotionally unstable people to have access to devices that kill so easily.

Premeditated murder. That alone will get these two the death penalty. As for their acts being a "Hate Crime" I cannot find a reason for these acts to not be classified as a "Hate Crime".

I think murder supercedes a hate crime. Why bothering with the expense of pursuing it? File it away as one for statistical data if you want, but whats the point?

there is no evidence that it was a hate crime. Unless they say the purposely targeted blacks, then you can't consider it. there intentions were to shoot people, and to get away with it. I don't know the area, but they could have chosen it as an area with a lower risk of being caught. If i go to India and shoot Indians, that doesn't mean I hate Indians, just that they are the only ones to shoot. Just wait and listen to everything unfold regarding this case

And your insight and proof that the murder was racially motivated is?

Alan b007

And your insight and proof that the murder was racially motivated is?

Oh, I don't know, maybe that they went into a specific neighborhood and took turns targeting and killing five Black people who happened to be on the street minding their own business.

Doesn't matter if the killers acted with racial prejudice or not. Murders should be tried, convicted and sentenced, hopefully to death. If you murder and get the death penalty....what if you are racially motivated? A double death penalty? 200 more years in prison past "life"?

Crime is crime. I'm white, and at least one of these murderers is white. I believe he is a murderer and should suffer the maximum penalty. Take a lesson, minorities: I am ADVOCATING the trying and punishment to the extent of the law of a white criminal. Take a minute to think about it. If you would take the same outlook, murders of your racial group would drop 50% in a year.

Steve, the death penalty does not deter murder.

Raddave, it will sure as hell prevent those two from ever murdering again. That works for me.

One of the survivors of the shooting said he did not want the person to get the death penalty.

Maybe because that survivor is not dead! Why not ask the dead victims how they feel...................

The dead victims also did not want the death penalty for the accused, as the dead vitims said it sucked being dead or at least their expression was interpreted as such.

Ask the families of the dead how they feel about it. They should have some say in the matter.

Ant then we are going to support them for 20 - 30 years while the process goes on and on..... Take them out back and shot them is what should be done, and do it now....

Confessions are not a guilty plea. There will still be a trial.

Due process? Pfft. We don't have the time to get "all legal" about things.

Due process is making sure the chair has enough juice, or the syringe is sterilized, but I prefer making sure the knott is tight.

What was your pay out last year for your local prisons and jails ...maybe $5.00?

Cause when Carl's buddy had hit the black man earlier with a baseball bat it didn't kill him

Because that would be "inhumane" and a "violation of their rights".....(Now, before anyone goes off on me, please re-read what I posted, adding extreme sarcasm!)

You think people might reconsider committing a crime if prison actually meant hard physical labor with little in the way of amenities?

Without any sarcasm at all, because people who are incarcerated for crimes are still human and the crime is but aspect of who they are. Your suggestion makes me question your sense of humanity and you're not even locked up.

Is that how you were punished as a kid?

Sheila-846240

You think people might reconsider committing a crime if prison actually meant hard physical labor with little in the way of amenities?

Has that ever worked... anywhere at any time in history? You seem to forget that people eventually are released. Who would your system be releasing back to the public?

Culhealth: Has prison ever worked in any country? I assume you are referring to recidivism and crimes committed after a prison term. Has treating criminals as if they had rights had a better effect on such post prison crimes as when prisons did NOT favor convict rights?

Prison doesn't work. The rate of after-prison crime is astounding. For 50+ years we have been extending more and more assurance of rights for criminals and prisoners. Does it work? Hell no it doesn't work.

That's your hokey reason why criminals should be coddled? Sorry, I reject that. There is a certain Arizona sheriff who is known to NOT coddle prisoners, and his repeater rate is the lowest in the nation. Yes, they are going to get out. Leave them with the impression that prison is to be avoided. Not that is is a great way to get 3 hots and a cot without working for it.

If harsh treatment doesn't work....who cares? At least we get something for our anguish.

If harsh treatment doesn't work....who cares? At least we get something for our anguish.

You could have just reduced your post to that line because the rest of what you said is hogwash.

Shall I post the google links to the numerous articles on world wide prison protocols and which produces the lowest recidivism rates and highest reintegration back into society...or can you bother to do that for your self. My reading of your attitude from your last posted line tells me that you likely won't bother.

Steve, don't you realize that people locked up in County prisons are there either awaiting trial, or there on a minor offense? But, from your last sentence, I see you are only interested in revenge.

"because people who are incarcerated for crimes are still human"

That really depends on the crime. Some criminals may look human, but not even close.

" the crime is but aspect of who they are."

Some criminals are defined by their crimes, you are what you do.

Some criminals are defined by their crimes, you are what you do.

I don't know a single person who does one thing all the time. People are complex and are and do many things during the course of their lives. A single photograph never serves to reveal an entire life.

The guy who kills his wife in a fit a of jealous rage may also be a physician who has saved many children's live. That doesn't excuse his crime, but it does express that a killer is not all that he is.

I do not assume from your handle that your entire life is spent punishing people or other living things...well, unless the number sequence represents a tally of some sort, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

culheath, people live their lives thru hobbies per se, like myself, I like to go fishing. So people consider me a fisherman. If someone, occasionally likes to to cimmit crime, like steal a car, rob a bank, kill a few people, we call them criminals. They are what they do. The doctor that saves many lives but takes his wife's life, well there are always exceptions, but for the career criminals, there is no such thing as reform.

Steve the dog man-

Its likely that certain Arizona sherrif is going to be behind bars soon himself...His hands are awful dirty doing favors for politicians and keeping himself in office.

not every cop is dirty you know.

Why not just apply that principle to yourself, then you wouldn't have to make complaints.

"OK folks,.....it's time for these losers to be EXECUTED. One round each. There is nothing cheaper. Put them out of their misery"

When you post words like that, do you ever think about whether or not you want to live in a country that would take you up on your suggestion, or do you just run with the drivel your mind creates?

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, slappy.

Rusty your comment is just as stupid as people who say "No Homo" before saying a comment they think people will perceive as homosexual. The fact that you had to even say "Before ya post a "youre a racist" remark" shows that you are acknowledging what you said is most likely going to be viewed as such. Although you are not being outwardly racist but you are attempting to indirectly draw a conclussion based on your preconveived notion of what a certain race does. This is the new form of racism in America.

You also ask us a good question about odds being even right? Since you seem to the be expert maybe you should answer your own question for all of us. O thats right though, I forgot where we are; You don't base anything you say on known facts or evidence. I think you would fit right in over at the Trayvon Martin article discussion.

Torian,

Bingo.

An eye for an eye only leaves criminals blind. Boo Hoo. Punish black and white alike is unfair? Sure it is. In the eyes of "racists", their race shouldn't receive penalty, only the other races. To say fair is fair, is....fair.

wow Torian?Do i sense Hatred?You seem like a really upset person......you so quickly jump to conclusions too.Prejudice is pre-judging somebody and you fit right into that category.Thank you for pointing out how prejudice YOU are.

Nice!At least their admittance will make for a speedy trial.Now if we can just execute every white man for shooting a blackman and every black man for shooting a whiteman.........the odds are going to be even, right?Before ya post a "youre a racist" remark, look up and notice an eye for an eye.

This is a joke, right??

Unbelievable, yes it was full of sarcasm.

Rusty I challenge you to explain how anything I said was prejudice? However, if you want to play that game you too are "so quickly to jump to conclussions". You are also prejudice as well by your definition of the word. You are pre-judging me as a upset person filled with hate based off your perception of how you think I typed words on a page (Just as you are accussing me of doing by the way). I'v seen your posts and you sir calling someone prejudice is hypocracy at its greatest. You can say its sarcastic, but I have read enough of your comments in the Zimmerman post for instance to know your mindset on topics like this.

Rusty I challenge you to explain how anything I said was prejudice?

It wasn't. But hey, it's Rusty and yeah, I've seen him around too being...well, Rusty.

Thats fine, i respect other peoples opinions.I might not agree, but i respect them.

And you will explain to the erroneously convicted and executed families how again? Will you say, "We're sorry." That'll fix it all up.

Confessed and caught virtually red handed. If they are imprisoned and ever escape or are paroled they would almost certainly commit more violence. I know about prisoners who were murderers-I've worked with them and lived with them in prison. There are people who cannot be rehabilitated and put no value on life-theirs or others.

culheath...

I'm a proponent of the death penalty only when there is irrefutable hard evidence of the crime being committed by the accused/convicted. In this case, BOTH men admitted guilt, they disclosed where the firearm used in the crime could be located. I will submit to you that this is in fact irrefutable evidence of the crime.

I would hesitate about a Death Penalty sentence where there is only circumstantial evidence submitted. And I support those previously convicted and sentenced to death who want DNA "evidence" tested post trial. However, if that evidence does in fact prove their guilt, then all appeals cease and the sentence is carried out within 30 days.

XDm9mm,

I hear you and respect your opinion on that insofar as you at least want irrefutable evidence as a condition. That was my personal stance as well for quite some time. Since then I have altered my view.

We are of different opinions, because I personally consider the death penalty both an excuse for not knowing how to adequately deal with crime and an incredibly bad and hypocritical message from the state when the state allows itself to be drawn down to the same level as the murderer they are about to murder. Basically the state is signaling that violence and murder are ok and a reasonable solution as long as the whole tribe is in on it.

" I personally consider the death penalty both an excuse for not knowing how to adequately deal with crime and an incredibly bad and hypocritical message"

culheath, unfortunately evolution hasn't allowed or enabled all humans to that point you are referring to. So in the mean time we deal with it as best we can. Especially in this case. Why muck up the gene pool even further, if your ultimate goal is to reach that pinacle?

culheath, unfortunately evolution hasn't allowed or enabled all humans to that point you are referring to. So in the mean time we deal with it as best we can. Especially in this case. Why muck up the gene pool even further, if your ultimate goal is to reach that pinnacle?

I hear ya...but what...we should settle for less than what we can be because there are slow kids in the class? Everybody's got some worth that can be tapped. I just can't get behind writing people off because I don't know how to reach them. That doesn't mean I'm going to invite them home.

Nope not at all, I don't like it when teachers teaches at the lowest doniminator. It just drags everyone down. I feel it does injustice to the kids that wants to do better, and the kids that are in the middle that could try harder. This is how I feel, if you baby a child too much, example training wheels on a bike. I took them off my kid's bikes as soon as they could ride the bike. They learned how to balance in a couple of days and within a month, was very good. I've seen other kids who still have their training wheels on around my kids age, and they are more afraid to do things, and still have some sort of dependency mentality. They will take that mentality into their adult life to various degrees.

I understand your point completely and agree with much of it, i draw the line at throwing the kid out the row boat and yelling "swim"!

Some people come to their tens or early adulthood as highly damaged goods through no fault of their own. When you consider that most people in prison are illiterate and suffered abuse themselves as kids I think we're beyond the "training wheels having been left on too long" principle you mentioned. I think there is much that can be done for those already incarcerated and even more that can be done on the front by mitigating poverty and the systemic racism that drives the whole mechanism. It's not easy and it will cost...but it can be done.

What I believe has to change first though is the American tendency to look for quick fix stereotypical punishment solutions and the warehousing of problems rather than dealing with them. I don't think we should coddle criminals, but I think we should stop pretending that severe punishment solves anything either. We have to see them as people as victim themselves to their own criminal behaviors as the people they victimize.

The US has the harshest sentences and most populated penal system in the world and yet we have far worse rates of recidivism and violence. It's really obvious to even the most casual observer that what we are doing is not working.

Culheath,

Have you considered that there is a portion of the population being discussed that do not want to "change" how they live their lives, what they choose to do that endangers others? You tend to clump them into this category of "we can change them and make them better!" Not everyone is able to be helped, nor do they want to be helped. We can help some, of course.

In cases where they admit to the crime, even as far as being able to inform law enforcement where the tool of the crime is located, there is complete proof they have committed the crime. I for one do not want ANY of my tax dollars to support confessed killers.

Now, for lesser crimes that have not taken a life, let's spend time and effort and resources providing them with "help" and see just how many we can place back into the general public and become productive to society.

I am more than happy to allow you do provide all and any assitance for those criminals.

The media has already hyped this from here to eternity! Al Sharpton is on his way to Oklahoma! GEEZ. They've been caught, they confessed, now let the courts do their job.

Maybe he is going there to make sure they do, I see they aree already giving England an excuse of his father being killed by a black man, but I noticed they never said why the black man killed him. If Busch was going to voice his opinion, would that be better?

PhilB... actually, I believe the reason for Johnson killing England was noted in a previous article regarding this incident.

England and another went to Johnsons residence after an earlier incident. England attacked Johnson and Johnson drew a gun and shot England to death. Johnson acted in self defense.

That being said, why was Johnson only convicted of "pointing a gun", and not the more serious felony charge of possession of a firearm by a convicted felon.

XDm9mm,

Good summation.

Didn't even know there was such a ludicrous charge of "pointing a gun"? Who came up with that anyways, they should be charged and convicted of being too dumb.

"pointing a gun" is taken as "a serious threat with intent to do grievous harm".

The fact he got 4 years on that charge alone indicates how seriously the state takes that sort of threat. Much more time than someone would get for threatening to beat someone up.

but two negatives makes it a positive, in multiplication anyways.

Good one, punisher :)

I feel that desire for a "righteous revenge" too, especially after your mention of the Rosewood massacre, but killing killers does not stop the killing because the "killing" just jumps hosts and infects us - it just deepens the darkness and widens the wound and the false sense of justice it provides is a temporary patch, no more. We've got to find a way to heal that wound and stop the violence and hating that is consuming us. It's not going to be easy, but it can be done.

If the killer of his father was white, he would have done nothing. Can't wait for him to take his 1st prison shower. Do they really "squeal like a pig"

Do they really squeal like a pig?

Depends on whether they want it or not...but even if they don't, it's more like the deep grunting of a wounded cockatoo.