Whom are you paying back, exactly? The state of California? O.J. Simpson? The jurors on that case?

No, no, and no. You're talking about black people, plain and simple. In your mind, a black person got away with murdering a white person, so you see this as an opportunity to "even things out" by allowing a white person to get away with killing a black person. Not only is that mindset absolutely despicible, but it also ignores the fact that plenty of white people have gotten away with murdering black people over the years already, particularly in southern states like Florida....

Yeah, sure, racism has *nothing* to do with this.... ;P

To put it another way, unless it is your contention that Trayvon Martin killed O.J. Simpson's wife, your statement is purely racist and utterly deplorable. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking that allowing a boy to be murdered is a good way to get "pay back" against a totally unrelated person who just happens to be the same race.

Nana I totally agree with you assuming you are talking about the fact that OJ killed 2 white people and got away. I mean the Native Americans take your land first and then those damn Mexicans come and steal the little land you have left you know California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico then those Africans come take you from your land and make you slaves with no rights whatsoever til about 60-70 yrs ago. Oh the humanity! How could white people who are obviously the most hated and horribly trated people on earth deal with the sickness? Gosh I wish I were white for only even a day just to see how horribly this country has treated you. I'm sick to my stomach at the moment!

O.J. didn't murder his ex-wife because she's white, and he isn't the first guy to get away with murdering his ex-wife (just watch the daily news).

Your words speak volumes and unfortunately, very typical.

This case will come down to forensics. Trayvon is not here to tell his side of the story. And so the case depends on how well the Sanford PD did their forensics investigation that night. Did they collect Mr. Zimmerman's clothing for microscopic blood spatter evidence? How well did they process the scene that rainy night? Did they test Mr. Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol? What are the records and recollections of the EMT who responded. These and many more questions would be needed to tell a different story from Mr. Zimmerman's.

All things considered, I will be very surpised if Mr. Zimmerman is convicted. Not because I think he is innocent, but because from first-to-last it seems that the Sanford PD bolluxed up this case and, so, I suspect that forensic evidence is equally bolluxed up. In this case, I think that the best outcome from this for the Martin family will be sufficient evidence to proceed against Zimmerman, the Home Owner's Association and the City of Sanford in a civil court case.

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey should be on Mr. Obama's DOJ team.

Now, I wonder why ?

The prosecutor just blew the case, first three rules in prosecution are ,NEVER OVER CHARGE, NEVER OVERCHARGE, AND MOST OF ALL NEVER OVERCHARGE !

Hmmm, understand the logic, Simpson got away with a double murder, no question about it. But the reason was simple, if he had been convicted there would have been riots and burning in LA.so the DA made sure the verdict was not guilty. Now in this case, if Zimmerman is found not guiltly ( and that's likely correct ) there will more than likely be looting, burning and riots, thanks to Jesse, Al, and the other racial rabble rousers. How about we all let the jury hear the evidence, and quietly and correctly accept the verdict? If one were to fixate themselves on statistics we would find that over the last number of years blacks have killed more blacks than whites have killed blacks, and blacks have killed more whites than whites have killed blacks...just the way it works in the lawless parts of our society.

I'll admit I'm extremely envious of all you outhouse lawyers on here. Me? I don't know what happened that night. Nor do I know anything about the Stand Your Ground law or how the courts view it.

What I do know is way too many of you, for both sides are forming opinions based on information you've see, read, or heard. Some of that information has been manipulated by the media. I'm certain the state prosecutor and police have evidence none of you have seen or heard. As for me I'll wait to hear the evidence before deciding guilt or innocence.

But let me tell you a story of a black teenager from Winston-Salem, N.C. named Darryl Hunt. In the mid 80s a white woman was raped and killed. Darryl was arrested, charged, and convicted. Based on what I heard and read I couldn't decide his guilt. One day, seventeen years later I'm going through the newspaper when I came across an article saying DNA had proved him innocent. So before you hang this guy, without seeing ALL the evidence let's give him exactly what each of you would want if you were in the same situation: his day in court with a jury listening to all the evidence and then making a decision.

Whether you like the American judical sytem or not each one of us is given the right to have a jury trial. It's one of the fundementals that makes this country great.

Prosecutors are not immune to political pressure and certainly given the highly polarized atmosphere surrounding this case for reasons that need not be cited you could hardly have a more politicized environment in which everyone is going to be trying their best to do the politically correct thing.

None of us were there, but from what I've read it certainly doesn't sound to me like George Zimmerman comes even close to meeting the criteria of malevolent intent that would justify charging him with 2nd degree murder. What needs to be ascertained is what was his intent; what was he really feeling at the moment he fired? Did he fear for his life? Did Trayvon do something - whether intentional or unintentional - that caused Mr. Zimmerman to genuinely feel his action was justified?

Unfortunately, due to the idiotic and hateful actions of the likes of Spike Lee, Roseann Barr and others of the "lynch em first, ask questions later" crowd (doing their best to do irresponsible things like posting or attempting to post Mr. Zimmerman's home address) as well as a press all too willing to convict Mr. Zimmerman based on what they just know had to be his motivation - the entire affair has taken on the aura of a circus; an an opportunity for both real and imagined transgressions that occurred in the distant past or in the present to be sublimated into the situation without even being actually mentioned. What appears to be happening is that the prosecutor is going to go forward with an ill advised and possibly unfounded prosecution - to "show" that she takes it seriously.

Let us hope that cool heads and justice - not political expediency and political correctness - rule the day.

I'm just glad it's going to a trial. Let a jury see the evidence, hear the 911 calls, and apply what they learn with the judge's instruction on what laws apply in the case.

Maybe they will say Zim had a right to stand his ground. Maybe they will say Martin had a right to stand his ground.

Jack-1006819

You do have a point. If Zimmerman is found not guilty, there will more than likely be riots, lootings, and burnings.

eeewww..that Corey lady is one hell of an ugly women...after seeing her picture.

What... had you planned on hitting on her before you saw her picture?

WTH do her looks have to do with anything? Are you some kind of cretin who can't see a woman in any context without sizing her up for a roll in the hay?

No wonder you're so obviously hard up.

Oh hell yeah. It will be rioting of biblical proportions. We arrest a man based on appeasing the court of public opinion and the blacks. What a travesty of injustice. I still have not seen an up to date pic of Trayvon. Typical giving in to the "civil rights" groups and Al Shaprton and baby daddy Jesse Jackson. Caved in more likely. Trayvon had rights, but Zimmerman has rights too. We have 2 opinions based on what we have seen in the media. IF you are black, he is guilty, if you are anyone with common sense, he is innocent until proven guilty.

The racist kids are out of school. Notice how the conversation has become compltely racist after school got out.

saxon - The prosecutor just blew the case, first three rules in prosecution are ,NEVER OVER CHARGE, NEVER OVERCHARGE, AND MOST OF ALL NEVER OVERCHARGE !

With a plausible 2nd-degree murder charge hanging over his head, Zimmerman will be more likely to agree to a plea of manslaughter.

Zimmerman's 911 call by itself says a lot. Give him bail and direct that he remain in the same area where he decided to play judge, jury and executioner. Who knows maybe karma will visit upon him. Let us not forget you reap what you sow. It would be so very fitting.

LG--Which version of the 911 call are you referring to? The one NBC edited? And remember your words "You sow what you reap". I do believe you are wishing harm to come to Zimmerman. Be careful if you believe in what you say. This should never have to go to trial but a mob ruled this day.

No matter the outcome...there will be more 'rage'. It's what all of this is about in the first place.

This case will end much the same way the Jefferson case in Oklahoma ended, with a manslaughter conviction and 4 year sentence.

Jefferson was the black man who shot and killed Jake England's (the Oklahoma shooter's) dad......The evidence was that Jefferson shot and killed England sr after being knocked to the ground with a stick of some sort.....Almost the same circumstance except for the stick.

Why is the Government, and AG Eric Holder involved in this Case of Trayvon Martin vs. Zimmerman?

Isn't there Separation between State and Government Laws?

This may sway the Jury to an improper verdict. Tampering with the Law, and Trial.

Outrageous. No one holding a High Office in a President's Cabinet should make remarks about non-Federal public cases. This has never happened before, and should stop..

Yet another case tried in the press. Zimmerman can't get a fair trial anywhere. Stand your ground means just that why should we have to turn and run from these punks. I wish we had it in CA. but that will never happen, you would be tried by a bunch of Prius drivers who cry for a ban on guns at every chance they get.

I wonder if you racist @!$%#s are even realizing that you are dragging America down?

Too many mistakes have been made, Zimmerman will walk. They even gave him his gun and clothes back. Looks like a battle of the forensic experts, with the defense winning easily.

You do have a point. If Zimmerman is found not guilty, there will more than likely be riots, lootings, and burnings.

It might be worse than Kentucky winning the NCAA Basketball title. Better watch your feet.

My biggest concerns involve Zimmerman being railroaded to appease the mob mentality that has developed. I do not think he broke the law as written. If the law allows too much leeway it should be changed but that has no bearing on Zimmerman.

I also agree there is a good chance this is going to become messy before it is done. Zimmerman, innocent or guilty, has blood on his hands. The media will soon join him in that condition.

PJ I agree with you 100%.

i just as everybody else in the public do not have all of the facts.

unfortunately with the information we are given we have through no fault of our own by our human nature have developed our own opinion. i can't help but feeling that about 90% of what everyone believes about this case is "off base" in both directions and only a very small amount of the population is even close in terms of what really happened.

it will be a monumental task to try to find a jury tht does not already have an opinion and even if they do can these jurors make a decision based on facts and not of their own opinion.

@HOG Lover!,

How many times are you going to post the same thing? I bet that is the only thing you can even remotely equate with Booker T Washington. Well, even you probably know about the peanut butter thing.

@ Marchant,

Attorney General Eric Holder and the DOJ are involved because clearly, the Sanford police bungled this matter from the start. Those idiots seemingly did not even follow basic police procedures. Do you not realize that there are certain procedures that MUST be followed when someone is murdered? Additionally, there are cases where the DOJ has had to oversee certain police departments, Pittsburgh, PA for one, due to law enforcement officers running roughshod over the populace, mainly the black populace. It helps to know a few things prior to posting.

@ steel toed boot and others,

I have seen updated photos of Trayvon Martin, maybe you're not looking hard enough. stb, you say "he"s grown now, big and tall and strong. SO WHAT!!!!! He was still only SEVENTEEN years old, carrying nothing more on him than iced tea and Skittles. Since you are apparently unaware, SEVENTEEN means he was still a minor.

@ LG,

I have no doubt that karma will make a visit to Zimmerman. None whatsoever. Karma may make an initial appearance while he is locked up.

@ Snow Jackson,

Snow, Snow, Snow. Snow is so lily white, sort of Aryan like. I love the winter snow. You, however, are something else. The "travesty of justice" is that a seventeen year old was murdered and that "snow people" oh, my bad, "some people" seemed to think that no investigation is needed. Just another "the blacks" right? You would be funny if you weren't serious. Actually, you still wouldn't be funny.

@Stoops2Conquer, you mention an "ill-advised and possibly unfounded prosecution". Yes, that is EXACTLY what happened to Trayvon Martin. Lest you forget, HE is the victim, a dead minor is the victim here.

@mudrake2,

Thanks, I didn't know purple haze was making a comeback. On a more sensible note, Zimmerman did not have to shoot to kill, did he. He was the only armed actor on the seen so I am sure that shooting Trayvon Martin in the foot would have sufficed. What was Trayvon Martin going to do? Throw an iced tea at Zimmerman?

Sorry, should read, he was the only armed actor on the scene.

@mama-1162253,

Nice to know I apparently got up under your skin, so to speak, EWWWWW! Mama????? You are somebody's mama? WOW!!!!!!

OJ got aquitted because a corrupt cop tampered with evidence in order to make sure he would be convicted, this time the corrupt cops are doing the same thing to protect the killer, which will undoubtedly backfire and get him sent to prison for life.

I for one am glad he's been charged, and that there will be a trial. Once and for all.

As for all you racists, pro and con get a life. A young boy is dead. The man who killed him is arrested. Hopefully we will find out the truth during the trial and if Zimmerman is found guilty, so be it.

Mr. Wanker - Riots, looting, and burning are pretty un-likely. I suspect you are hoping for those. Go take your meds.

Sandie....

You are suggesting that the DoJ and holder are vinvolved because the sanford police bungled the job??

How droll as well as inane. Why doesn't the DoJ get involved in all other cases bungled by lobal law enforcement across America?

I submit that it is more of a political talking and rallying point for the obama administration to get votes over a tragic death.

Regardless, jury selection will take forever and If he is proven guilty it won't be for 2nd degree murder.

Maybe it is because some of those other cases have not or did not receive the attention that this case has. Thank goodness that Trayvon Martin's parents pushed hard for a further investigation of what happened that night. Are you saying that the parents of this minor do not deserve to know why their son was murdered? I seriously doubt that Obama will get any votes because of this tragedy. THAT statement from you is inane. Droll has nothing to do with anything in this case.

ZonMoy - Where is your evidence for that? Or is it just manufactured in your mind because that's the way you WANT it to be? I may be wrong, so just show me the evidence regarding your accusation of the "corrupt cops".

Stoops2Conquer "Prosecutors are not immune to political pressure and certainly given the highly polarized atmosphere surrounding this case for reasons that need not be cited you could hardly have a more politicized environment in which everyone is going to be trying their best to do the politically correct thing...None of us were there, but from what I've read it certainly doesn't sound to me like George Zimmerman comes even close to meeting the criteria of malevolent intent that would justify charging him with 2nd degree murder."

Well said. This is a political prosecution intended to quell the furor until after the election. It's unlikely that there will be a 'trial' before the November elections, and afterwards they will probably 'leak' key evidence (or lack thereof), and the case will fade away. We already have an eye-witness that apparently stated that they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating on him, and Zimmerman had cuts and bruises consistent with that testimony.

PS - I see that msnbc is still using that 'ancient' photo of Trayvon showing him as a young boy, instead of a more recent photo showing him as someone about 5 inches taller than Zimmerman.

Eric Holder should never have opened his mouth in this case. He is the most corrupt and racist AG the US has ever had. But look who appointed him!!

where do they plan on holding the trial? Mars? If I were on the jury I would hang it just to pay back for the O.J. farce.

Are we still on OJ??? He walked for a crime he probably committed. But in the grand scheme of things, there are MANY MANY more black males who were executed or saved from death row for "convictions" of raping white women who were innocent. There are many, many more white men who were let off the hook for killings of black men and raping of black women. I'm not keeping score, but whites are a still a whole lot of wrongful convictions/exonerations past black people.

I think this shows where the line is drawn in America. If you are half white and half black, you are black(president/actors). Apparently black people should get away with murder because of racism(actor). If you are half white and half hispanic, you are white(Zimmerman). And apparently white people don't even get a fair trial (in the media) because of racism.

Witnesses and his account (including the physical evidence on his body) show he was injured, and fought back.

If the American government is willing to convene a kangaroo court and let a group of people under duress declare a man guilty out of fear of being hunted down themselves, then the American government has completely and utterly failed.

Zon Moy "OJ got aquitted because a corrupt cop tampered with evidence in order to make sure he would be convicted,"

There was no evidence of 'evidence tampering' in the OJ trial - it was just a 'theory' by OJ's attorney that was used as a convenient excuse to acquit OJ by a virtually all Black jury. The DNA evidence was overwhelming against OJ, but I still remember what one Black juror said about it "I don't know nothing about no blood" - This from a government worker.

The case was 'botched' by the District Attorney by moving it from the jurisdiction where the crime was committed to downtown LA and then allowing OJ's attorney to systematically challenge and remove White jurors to 'stack the deck'.

Eric Holder should never have opened his mouth in this case. He is the most corrupt and racist AG the US has ever had. But look who appointed him!!

So Holder is "more racist" than the attorney generals (assuming they existed then) in the 20s and 30s who would refuse to prosecute lynchings? Are we kidding?

@Sandie - Where is your evidence that the police department "bungled" this case from the beginning? I'm willing to bet that you have no more knowledge about the facts than anyone else on this blog...just what you hear in the media and then you make your decision on how things "went down" in your mind.

And to all of those who are "glad this is finally being taken to a jury to find out the real truth"....I think you have a twisted understanding of our laws in this nation. We don't take people to trial in order to find the facts....we are supposed to HAVE the facts first...THEN go to trial. That's part of what makes freedom so great. That's like saying we have to "pass the bill in order to know what's in it". Shouldn't the bill be READ first to determine if it should be passed? Well, shouldn't the EVIDENCE be considered BEFORE going to trial? I certainly hope that the prosecuting attorney HAS the evidence and is not going forward just to pacify the mob. That, in and of itself, would be against the principles of freedom and liberty. On the other hand, if the evidence is substantial, then the case should be brought forth and decided in a court of law. Only time will tell. Until then, I will withhold my verdict.

This trial will be a farce. When your average person gets charged with a crime they charge him with multiple charges so they know some will stick. But Zimmerman is being charged the way they charge cops one charge and over reaching on the charge so as to insure an acquittal. Accept for Zimmerman's initial profiling of martin this has never been about race. It has been about a retired Federal judge's son getting the treatment that our ruling elite have come to expect. They will never prove second degree murder but that's all part of the plan. Welcome to America.

We have already seen the blacks calling for a lynching..

Have we? I haven't seen any torches, pitchforks, or nooses. They guy who called the death threat on the Sanford police chief was a white man.

Take your projection somewhere else.

Some of you should really be ashamed. God if you believe in God, or have a mind not ruled by hated or the color of someone's skin, nor the neighborhood they were raised in, then you should realize that karma does exist. It doesn't always happen immediately but it is real. The only things in this case that have me wondering have nothing to do with a hoodie. Millions of americans and non americans wear hoodies whether they put the hoodie over their head or let it hang, that in no way means they're a thug. All ages from infants, to lawyers, to atheletes, to grandmothers, teachers, actors, pastors, every race wears hoodies, that doesn't define the person in it.

The real problem I can't get past is if they were struggling and Zimmerman was reportedly hurt with a broken nose and a bloody bashed back of his head, his jacket also reported was supposed to have been wet, muddy and full of grass, why doesn't the footage that shows him getting out of the police car that night show any signs of ANY of that to be true.

I don't want to believe that he or any of us can just be so unconcerned with another persons life and whom all will be hurt by the killing of another person. Stand your ground doesn't mean pursue someone and confront them. It means if someone approaches you and you need to defend yourself. You can't stalk someone and say you were standing your ground. Just like you can't go and pursue Zimmerman and taunt him and kill. Both acts would be considered murder. Roits don't help people see or hear your true feelings so I hope that we have come too far as a society to roit (have a temper tantrum) because we don't get what we want.

I honestly wish more people would have gave more consideration to little Casey. The coverup and proven lies and clear evidence against her and her parents was a sign that real justice isn't always served in court or on the street but God will judge them.

wonder what would come of this if this was a black man accused of shooting white person,nothing,now if found not guilty i am sure riots looting will happen,anytime any excuse

mama1162253.....there is something really wrong with you! Either you can't read (he was wearing a hoodie that night because it was cold and raining) or you are just a really hateful person. I seriously doubt he was out looking for trouble with a bag of candy and an ice tea....he just wanted to get home. Of course, in your racist, stupid mind, because he was black, that automatically makes him a thug. Well....if we are doing stereotypes here, your comments indicate that you are nothing more than a racist piece of trailer trash. And, by the way, I'm white!

And to all of those who are "glad this is finally being taken to a jury to find out the real truth"....I think you have a twisted understanding of our laws in this nation. We don't take people to trial in order to find the facts....we are supposed to HAVE the facts first...THEN go to trial. That's part of what makes freedom so great. That's like saying we have to "pass the bill in order to know what's in it". Shouldn't the bill be READ first to determine if it should be passed? Well, shouldn't the EVIDENCE be considered BEFORE going to trial? I certainly hope that the prosecuting attorney HAS the evidence and is not going forward just to pacify the mob. That, in and of itself, would be against the principles of freedom and liberty. On the other hand, if the evidence is substantial, then the case should be brought forth and decided in a court of law. Only time will tell. Until then, I will withhold my verdict.

If you are suspected of a crime, you should be arrested and charged with a crime. It is then up to the prosecution to prove your guilt.

No one is convicted of a crime before they are arrested and charged. It seems you need a reminder of how our criminal justice system works.

Am one of the SNOW PEOPLE and very proud of it, you must be one of the BUSH BUNNIES OR TREE MONKEYS and you seem to be ignorant as well. Karma visited that thug and he got what he got. If he wasn't trying to be sneaky and hide under a hoodie then he would probably not even been noticed for the black thug he wanted to be. Oh well.... justice was served on him.

Good job. Keep exposing the racist mindset of whites in Amerikkka. I wonder if George Zimmerman was thinking the same thing...

Snow Jackson

Oh hell yeah. It will be rioting of biblical proportions. We arrest a man based on appeasing the court of public opinion and the blacks. What a travesty of injustice. I still have not seen an up to date pic of Trayvon. Typical giving in to the "civil rights" groups and Al Shaprton and baby daddy Jesse Jackson. Caved in more likely. Trayvon had rights, but Zimmerman has rights too. We have 2 opinions based on what we have seen in the media. IF you are black, he is guilty, if you are anyone with common sense, he is innocent until proven guilty.

You advocate 'innocent until proven guilty', yet you have already decided there will be riots if Zimmerman is acquitted?

Do you see the irony there? Can I borrow your crystal ball?

And what difference does it make that you haven't seen a recent picture of Trayvon Martin?

Your comment smacks of racism. The majority of whites in the U.S. believe Zimmerman should face justice for shooting Trayvon. And that is exactly what is now happening.

I hope the charge of second degree murder is not over reaching.

Regardless of how you feel about Zimmerman or Treyvon or Blacks or Whites... let's take a look at what really hapened here.

We - ALL OF US - Who took this thing to the streets and internet fanned a flame of political pressure that pushed the DA to bring about charges that will be extremely difficult to convict on. She should have gone with Aggravated manslaughter. If Zimmerman is guilty, that is really the appropriate charge. The prosecutor will not be able to prove that Zimmerman's intent was to kill that night. In Florida, manslaughter, defined as: The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification. He was negligent by not listening to the 911 operator's instruction to not follow who he thought to be a suspicious character. If manslaughter is committed upon a child via culpable negligence under FL statute 827.03(3), then the crime is aggravated manslaughter of a child which is a first degree felony punishable by up to 30 years in state prison.[

On the other hand, murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Malice can be expressed (intent to kill) or implied. Implied malice is proven by acts that involve reckless indifference to human life or in a death that occurs during the commission of certain felonies (the felony murder rule). Now Zimmerman was not in the process of committing a felony or breaking any other law when the killing took place, so that takes implied malice off the table leaving the prosecutor to have to prove intent to kill. All the defense has to do is provide a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman approached Trayvon intending to kill him that night and not to talk, detain, apprehend or otherwise engage him. The fact that he called 911 while following him would in my mind provide a reasonable doubt of expressed malice. After all, when was the last time a murderer called the cops on himself? That is what is meant by the prosecutor over reaching in this case.

If this guy walks, you have no one to blame but the Spike Lees and Al Sharptons of the world who cried so loudly for "justice" that they risked this guy getting off scott free rather than serving 30 years in prison. It's the same thing that let Casey Anthony get off.

Stupid Stupid Stupid.

Sandie Said-

On a more sensible note, Zimmerman did not have to shoot to kill, did he.

Actually, in the use of deadly force for self defense (read gun or other weapon), it is generally believed that one only uses the weapon when less force is no longer an option and that one uses the weapon in a way guaranteed to end the conflict, i.e. "shoot to kill"

In cases (shootings) where a person claims self defense, but it is shown that the shooter could have easily fled, or the aggressor was not close enough or armed in such a way as to constitute an immediate threat to life or limb, then the shoot was not justified.

Example: An aggressive and threatening person 50 yards away says he will beat you senseless with a baseball bat. You can easily flee, and there is no reasonable threat to justify shooting the aggressor. Example 2:

Kris Craig: Where's the out rage about blacks killing blacks? Where's the out rage about blacks killing whites? I am sick of listening to racists crying about the injustice they asre suffering. They have affirmative action, welfare and all black schools. Everything is set up to help them and they just don't try to better them selves. They just sit there and call everyone racists. And now the real shocker about the gimme crowd is that the KKK (the democraps which is mostly black) suppositly paid to have Dr King killed (The Awful Grace of God by U.S. historians Stuart Wexler and Larry Hancock).

Back to zimmerman. He won't have a fair trail. He won't live long in prison, and he won't live long out of prison. So no matter what happens the blacks will have a lynching. And the sick thing about the whole thing is that Trayvon's parents are making money off his death.

Here is the hurdle that the Zimmerman defense will not survive the "Stand Your Ground" defense:

1. It is an affirmative defense in which the burdon of proof is on Zimmerman.

Why will this be difficult?

1. The goal of neighborhood watch is "observe and report." Zimmerman went beyond that.

2. It's clear that Zimmerman knew the police were minutes and more likely seconds away.

3. Stand your ground does not apply if you are the person who initiated the confrontation - Zimmerman stated he was following Martin. Zimmerman was told you "don't have to do that." Zimmerman clearly kept pursuing based on where the 911 tapes reveal first contact was, Zimmerman lost Travon, and then the place of the encounter is a significant distance from the point of initial sighting (way beyond observe and report).

4. Also, but not lastly, had it not been "but for" the actions of Zimmerman, Martin would still be alive.

Remember, there is currently nothing revealed (and I doubt it exists) that suggests Martin was doing anything illegal. He was merely someone who Zimmerman felt (right, wrong, or indifferently) was acting suspicious. Zimmerman's statements with regard to appearing to be on drugs, etc. are all his unqualified opinions that will most likely not come in to play because MY BET <-- is that Zimmerman will take the 5th during his "Stand Your Ground" hearing which will

5. Not afford him to raise the defense.

I'm sure the prosecution would love nothing more than for Zimmerman to take the stand and articulate why he felt he was standing his ground (somthing that I find personally absurb). Once Zimmerman takes the stand, he has now locked in his testimoney - somthing his lawyer will not want him to do - imo.

On the other hand, murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Malice can be expressed (intent to kill) or implied. Implied malice is proven by acts that involve reckless indifference to human life or in a death that occurs during the commission of certain felonies (the felony murder rule). Now Zimmerman was not in the process of committing a felony or breaking any other law when the killing took place, so that takes implied malice off the table leaving the prosecutor to have to prove intent to kill.

You are describing 1st degree murder. 1st degree murder means he set out to kill Trayvon. 2nd degree murder doesn't rely on premeditiation.

If you plot to kill someone over money they owe you - Murder 1

If you pull out your gun and kill someone during an argument - Murder 2.

So they really don't have to set out to prove that Zimmerman wanted to kill Trayvon, which is quite frankly an unreasonable presumption. I've been saying the whole time this is a clear case of second degree murder, although I'm a little surprised they didn't go with manslaughter to ensure a conviction.

If this guy walks, you have no one to blame but the Spike Lees and Al Sharptons of the world who cried so loudly for "justice" that they risked this guy getting off scott free rather than serving 30 years in prison. It's the same thing that let Casey Anthony get off.

The guy was going to walk if no one raised hell about this at all. If anyone should be blamed, it is the initial DA who refused to file charges against Zimmerman when the lead homicide detective suggested he be charged with manslaughter. There clearly is systemic corruption within the law enforcement agencies in Seminole County.

I don't understand how the "Stand Your Guard" law could apply. Zimmerman followed Trayvon even after being told to stop. He carried a gun. He shot an unarmed 17 yr old who was just walking, not breaking into a house or car, just walking. So he called 911, he still ignored the instructions to stand down. And by the way, I'm white.

So they really don't have to set out to prove that Zimmerman wanted to kill Trayvon, which is quite frankly an unreasonable presumption. I've been saying the whole time this is a clear case of second degree murder, although I'm a little surprised they didn't go with manslaughter to ensure a conviction.

I agree, but we don't have all the information the DA has. Now that Zimmerman has been arrested and charged, the case should be tried in court and not in the media.

The guy was going to walk if no one raised hell about this at all. If anyone should be blamed, it is the initial DA who refused to file charges against Zimmerman when the lead homicide detective suggested he be charged with manslaughter. There clearly is systemic corruption within the law enforcement agencies in Seminole County.

Exactly!

Because of this second-degree murder charge, Zimmerman's gonna walk, and the blacks are gonna riot. The only good that's gonna come out of this thing is they will probably repeal the Stand Your Ground law after this.

He should have been charged with voluntary manslaughter if they really wanted him to get jail time.

Welll. you Don't Know what Zimmeran was thinking but way too many are bound and determined that they DO. The only remark about race was the 911 operator asking about the color of the person Zimmerman was watching and his response was that he looked black. THe truth of what he said, NOT racial profiling. The fact is that is was dark, Trayvon IS THE SIZE AND SHAPE OF AN ADULT. Zimmerman is not psychic and had NO WAY TO KNOW THAT HE WAS 17. Funny that 17 year olds can be charged as adults with crimes but in this case he is a innocent little child? Funny how the media and the public can over blow Zimmermans past (that has nothing to do with this) but everything and anything about Trayvon is hush hush, including accurate up to date photos. Had Zimmerman been suspended 3 times, caught with dope baggies and jewelery that obviously was not his and had punched a bus driver the public would know every single tiny detail about these things. ERic Holder and the dOJ have NO business in this case and if he does get involved he also better get involved in the hate crimes agaist the elderly couple that were terrorized due to Spike Lee and his 250,000 tweet followers.Which some sickos say these poor people deserved by virtue of being white alone. He also better get involved in the "reward" and eye for an eye justice that the black panthers called for. As well as the Rev Sharptons statements that his people don't have to follow white justice and his desire to see RACE as the factor in this case. This prosecutor seems to be charging 2nd degree murder to appease the black populaton and probably political presssure as well. Good luck proving depraved intent to murder cause it's just not there. OOPS, forgot the media andthe kangaroo court of public opinion already determined guilt. It will be brave people indeed who will sit on this jury and go by facts not pressure from racisits to convict, or possible threats from people with an agenda.

This is an outrage!

Basically, what this indictment says is that you can get charges brought against someone by protesting in the street, crying "racism", and tacitly threatening to riot.

The law isn't supposed to work that way.

All that kid had to do was say, "hey man, my father lives in this neighborhood" when Zimmerman asked him what he was up to.

But instead, he chose to punch George in the face, knock him to the ground, and smash his head against the pavement.......and we know this because an eyewitness says so!

We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not of men. The law is suposed to be applied without fear of outside reprisal or occurance.

But in this case it's very clear that outside forces influenced the decision of this special prosecutor.

Why else would the Martin family lawyer have to ask for local citizens to "remain peaceful", and what's the alternative to that?

You mean, there would be a riot, if George Zimmerman isn't charged with something?

That's the way the law works in a banana republic. Not, here in the United States!

Ellis Baumgarner - Almost no similarity at all to Jefferson in Oklahoma. Jefferson was on probation and breaking into England's house. England caught him and hit him with a stick. Jefferson left and got a gun and came back and shot him. That was intentional and premeditated. But they dropped the charge to pointing a gun at someone. Of course, Jefferson was black and England was white and Native American.

repost due to internet error-

Sandie said-

“On a more sensible note, Zimmerman did not have to shoot to kill, did he?”

Actually, by self-defense standards he did. If deadly force is required, due to imminent threat to life and limb, the common practice is to guarantee that such force ends the conflict. In cases where less force or fleeing would suffice, the self-defense claim is not justified.

Example- An aggressor threatens to beat you senseless with a baseball bat from 50 yards away. You cannot shoot the aggressor. Fleeing is still an option, or if you are perhaps unable to flee due to physical limitations, showing the ability to apply force (drawing your gun and stating “I have a gun and will shoot if you attempt to come close enough to use that bat) would be acceptable. If the aggressor persists in closing the distance or draws a gun in response, only then would you be justified in firing.

Example 2- An aggressor knocks you to the ground and begins pummeling you about the head and shoulders in a manner that makes you fear for your life. You manage to draw your gun and shoot. You are not fine point aiming at this juncture (taking a shot to the foot), but rather pointing the gun center mass of your attacker “at point blank range” and firing.

I don’t suggest that either party in this particular case was justified. I am pointing out the “shoot to kill” scenario only. You don’t “shoot to wound” when you are in fear for your life. A sensible person also does not put themselves in a situation where they might need to fear for their life.

This is an outrage!

Basically, what this indictment says is that you can get charges brought against someone by protesting in the street, crying "racism", and tacitly threatening to riot.

The law isn't supposed to work that way.

All that kid had to do was say, "hey man, my father lives in this neighborhood" when Zimmerman asked him what he was up to.

You don't even have to talk to the police. Why should you have to talk to a strange man following you with a gun?

But instead, he chose to punch George in the face, knock him to the ground, and smash his head against the pavement.......and we know this because an eyewitness says so!

You're assuming a) that Zimmerman and his "witness" (which is his friend) are not lying b) that Zimmerman did not physically start an altercation that led Martin to deck him in the face.

Again, there is another eyewitness (a young black teenager), who did not agree with Zimmerman's testimony of what happened.

We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not of men. The law is suposed to be applied without fear of outside reprisal or occurance.

So nothing in the initial investigation seemed odd to you? A person who admitted to killing a person was going to avoid even a serious investigation into whether any wrongdoing occured, because the prosecutor and subsequently the police dept. based their investigation on Zimmerman's own testimony.

But in this case it's very clear that outside forces influenced the decision of this special prosecutor.

Like Zimmerman's dad, who possibly could have influenced that original DA who declined to press charges even when recommended by a homicide detective?

Why else would the Martin family lawyer have to ask for local citizens to "remain peaceful", and what's the alternative to that?

You mean, there would be a riot, if George Zimmerman isn't charged with something?

That's the way the law works in a banana republic. Not, here in the United States!

Because everyone is afraid of the big bad black boogeyman that doesn't exist. They knew no one was going to do anything stupid, but they had to keep reminding the "public" (white people) that these protests were going to be peaceful. There is also a tendency in the white media to take fringe elements of the black community and apply their views/actions/beliefs on the rest of black people, you know because we all think exactly the same

With all the grandstanding and Media hype aside, If it is agreed that the scuffle before the shot did occur. It is definitely plausible, that the young strong Black male did take the accused to the ground, out of fear, self defense or anger. Now if indeed during the scuffle he did take the accused's head to the sidewalk a few times, this would end the unarmed talk, as using the concrete as a weapon instead of his own fist, would be aggravated battery. That would be a game changer, but will rely on EMT statements, and not grainy police video. The judicial system should be best for both parties involved, as well as their families

The case was 'botched' by the District Attorney by moving it from the jurisdiction where the crime was committed to downtown LA and then allowing OJ's attorney to systematically challenge and remove White jurors to 'stack the deck'

You do realize that 8 of the 12 jurors on the O.J. case were white, right?

I think the charges against Mr. Zimmerman were brought on just to "calm the masses". I think that a judge will dismiss it before trial on the "stand your ground" law. No trial will ever take place.

TekKnowledge - You are correct in that the difference between 1st degree and 2nd degree is premediation. The difference between Murder and Manslaughter is Malice.

First Degree Murder is any murder that is willful and premeditated.

Second Degree Murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance.

Voluntary Manslaughter sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." Both this and second degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.

Involuntary Manslaughter stems from unintentional, but criminally negligent behavior. A drunk driving-related death is typically involuntary manslaughter. Note that the "unintentional" element here refers to the lack of intent to bring about the death. All three crimes above feature an intent to kill, whereas involuntary manslaughter is "unintentional," because the killer did not intend for a death to result from his intentional actions.

However Florida does not distinguish between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. In Florida, manslaughter is defined as: The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder . . .

The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation.

Zimmerman will claim that he had no intention of creating a deadly situation when he confronted Trayvon and that his sole intention was to detain him until the police could arrive. It wasn't until Treyvon threw a punch that caused him to draw his weapon and fire. The prosecution will have to prove that Zimmerman intended to start a brawl creating a deadly situation in order for them to get a conviction on Murder 2. Manslaughter would have been a slam dunk conviction. Zimmerman's negligence created a deadly situation. His failure to not listen to 911 operator - negligence not criminal, his decision to bring a gun on patrol - negligence not criminal. His decision to confront a suspected criminal - negligence not criminal. Murder 2 is going to be a lot harder and likley not successful.

The ONLY reason the special prosecutor is going with this charge is because so many people do not understand the difference between Murder and Manslaughter well enough and have been collequially calling Zimmerman a murderer. Hell even Treyvon's mother said she believed the killing was accidental on the today show this morning. Manslaughter would have been the more appropriate charge in this case.

Yeah how stupid are us "white people?" Those riots after the Rodney King verdict didn't mean a thing, right? The riots after Katrina done by mostly...? No matter what you want to tell yourself history has shown that a certain group of people tend to feel the best way to deal with perceived social injustice is to smash a window and steal a big screen TV. Us dumb white folks had every reason to believe there would be violent riots because history has shown that to be the case.

You do understand that the vast majority of riots in this country was/are caused by whites correct?

Bottom line, whatever happens now, Zimmerman can go before a panel of his peers and face juris prudence. That's all anyone wanted because on the pro Treyvon Martin side, MJ residue in a high schoolers backpack not withstanding, the boy didn't deserve to die at the hands of a gung-ho wannabe copper.

I don't think either party can be held up for sainthood, but IMHO, at the point Zimmerman went into Batman mode and became the hunter, not the concerned citizen, he lost his right to claim Stand Your Ground or Self Defense.

Okay, as for the other nonsense in this thread, I can't be arsed to call out the OJ comparison idiots directly. Suffice to say, the scales were balanced [being ironic here] when Beretta got away with killing his wife. (Don't do the crime if you can't do the time...)

Message to Caucasian Americans Living in Fantasy NeoCon Land: African American's didn't necessarily believe OJ was innocent. We were just happy to see that a black man with money could screw us with equal impunity as the rich white people who've been doing it forever.

Treyvon Martin has galvanized the country and underscored the simple fact that America has serious issues in terms of race relations. Both Treyvon and George challenge our preconceived notions. Treyvon wasn't an NWA quoting wannbe gangsta and George isn't a pick-up truck driving, hillbilly redneck. We actually have to think about and consider nuances and and gray areas, something as a nation the black/white/native americans among us are very , very bad at doing.

Xina the Awesome,

you're right - manslaughter would be an open-shut case. But I wouldn't assume Zimmerman's intent, although not to kill, wasn't malicious, no matter how justified he felt harboring that malice towards black males in general (which is hard to gauge without examining his past). Zimmerman is not the police, and if he, as both you and I think, attempted to detain anyone, he is guilty of murder, period. Attempting to detain someone when you are not a police officer is pretty much the start of a physical altercation.

Based on the evidence we all have, this is a toss up between negligence and malice.

It is clear that something criminal happened here though, and that Zimmerman created an environment that facilitated Martin's death.

It is also clear that Zimmerman made some assumptions about Trayvon because of what he looked like - based on the police tape (even though he was asked first) and testimony from others in the neighborhood. I guess the jury has to decide whether those assumptions are "malicious" or not.

Why the surprise? This special prosecutor wants a better public job, so she avoided a grand jury that probably wouldn't have even returned an indictment in favor of just throwing the book at him despite police evidence stating there wasn't even enough evidence to hold him for any crime.

After the "Not Guilty" verdict, she'll claim "disappointment" and that "the jury just didn't understand the law, we tried our best," blab blah blah, and "now elect me as Attorney General of Florida because I gave you the show trial you asked for!"

Remember you read this post when all this happens in a couple years, if a judge even lets this get that far.

After all, when was the last time a murderer called the cops on himself?

You'd be surprised, then, because it definitely happens. Especially with people who don't have a criminal history, or in 'spontaneous' murders. Also when they know there are witnesses and that there is no way out of being caught, so they choose to call the police in hopes that they can seem like an innocent party and 'give their own version' of the events.

Since when does "stand your ground" mean "stalk and kill an unarmed kid"? I hope he rots in prison! If he gets away with this, you can bet it'll happen again.

Why on earth are experts sooo surprised as they say?.. Really, honestly, no one at all knows everything the "States Attorney" knows. Have any "experts" seen pathology or ballistics? The fact is she has. ; ]

Experts are commenting "surprise" on all that they have seen. Which is little, all that has been released and leaked. But is that all? No. Because he is charged with second degree. And a Judge has allowed her to proceed as such.

Really and most likely they have contradictory evidence to direct statements Mr. Zimmerman has made through surrogates. Probable cause means they PROBABLY have direct barring to what he has said. Meaning they probably show he is blatantly lying. ; ]

So there. Na na na a boo boo

Cheers

Thank you RoyWilson. I appreciate your comment.

I agree; this is a political hot potato and everyone who can figure a way to make political hay and/or advance their overt and covert agendas will be playing it for all its worth - irrespective of the racial enmity they engender or those whose lives they destroy in the process.

You know when you get loud mouth hacks like Al Sharpon and Jessie Jackson showing up - don't they sort of put you in mind of vultures circling above a carcass? - that there's publicity to be had and we can prepare ourselves to hear the same knee jerk rhetoric that always comes spewing out of their mouths.

Re. the photo MSNBC is running of Trayvon; I think you would agree that we would be utterly disingenuous to expect them to run an up-to-date photo.

After all, it would not be logical for MSNBC to run a photo showing Trayvon as a fully grown man; towering over his supposedly, malevolent blood thirsty attacker if you showed Trayvon wearing a hood that hid his face and in the dark if he were back lit could easily conjure up images of the grim reaper - would it now?

No MSNBC wants the image the public holds of him to be that of the sweet innocent child of 13 or whatever; not of someone who was arrested; not as someone who could have if he had actually wanted undoubtedly have beating Mr. Zimmerman to a pulp. Such a realistic, grown up image would sully the choirboy image they are doing their damnedest to promulgate.

In any event, Mr. Zimmerman deserves a fair hearing in a civilized court of law where the hue and cry of the hate filled mob is not permitted to enter.

I hope he has excellent lawyers to defend him because you know very well it will play very nicely to the liberal politician's agendas to see him crucified - whether innocent or guilty - so they can then all line up and claim that they were for throwing the book at him from the start - so "Please vote for us!"

I can't believe Zimmerman doesn't have every defense attorney in the country calling to represent him. This may be a very politically charged case but as far as getting your client off free this is an easy case.

What is surprising? Zimmerman was not standing his ground, he was getting his ass kicked in a fight that he brought about doing what he was told not to.

softdude- great point. Had Zimmerman just call the police and left it at that, none of this stuff today would be happening. I believe Zimmerman had a false sense of intitlement because he was packing heat.

They can clear up this entire mess by releasing the autopsy report and let the forensic scientists do their job. I do not understand why they will not release it.

I can't see a second degree murder charge sticking. Wouldn't that mean they'd have to prove Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin in the heat of the moment? That would be difficult. Manslaughter, the unintentional killing of Martin, should be a relatively straightforward case though (barring the application of this "stand your ground" law).

Thank goodness all the newsvine legal scholars and investigators have it all figured out.

I agree AG99. Anyone remember the English Nanny that was charged with Murder 2? The prosecutors in that case were so sure they'd get a Murder 2 conviction they took manslaughter off the table so that the jury only had the option of Murder 2 or innocent so they chose innocent as "more appropriate".

Also why does the media keep reporting Zimmerman as White father - Hispanic mother? They don't report Obama as White mother - Black father!

Soft dude

Had Zimmerman just call the police and left it at that, none of this stuff today would be happening

Here's the crux of the problem. We don't have all the evidence the police do.

With what was released, there is no way for us to tell if he followed or not. With what has been made public, you could make the case for either depending upon bias. Bias has no place in justice.

Softdude, I agree. Mr. Zimmerman was told by the dispatcher not to pursue. He did. The voice analysis experts say it was not Zimmerman's voice calling for help. Who else was there but Trayvon? I hope justice is served, for Trayvon's family.

Zimmerman was on his way back to his car when he was allegedly attacked. He was doing what the 911 operator told him. Pay attention!

Michael-528853

You are the one that should pay attention! Zimmerman was told before he got out of his car not to pursue.

Just what audio tape are you referring to there? The advice "We don't need you to do that" is clearly AFTER he was out of his vehicle as evidenced by the heavy breathing and wind effect on the phone. Even the edited version can't hide that unless they resequence it.

'...can't see a second degree murder charge sticking. Wouldn't that mean they'd have to prove Zimmerman wanted to kill Martin in the heat of the moment? That would be difficult.'

The 911 tapes reveal Trayvon screaming for his life for a good 5-10 seconds before the gunshot is heard. This scenario paints Zimmerman aiming center mass while listening to Trayvon scream. At no point during the screams is there any indication that Trayvon screamed, "You're going to die tonite" as George's father claims.

How could he (GZ) have feared for his life when the 911 tape sounds like Zimmerman has Trayvon at bay? The evidence points to Trayvon fearing for his life therefore giving him the right to stand his ground not the other way around. Zimmerman put the fear into Trayvon before pulling the trigger...no other explanation can account for the scream I heard. There was no 'heat of the moment'...it was cold and calculated.

denver bill 2

Thank goodness all the newsvine legal scholars and investigators have it all figured out.

AMEN!

"Tell me Mr. Jones, where did you study law?"

"I studied at the MSNBC forums on race and justice in America."

"Ah, I see. Trial by uninformed public opinion. A real money saver for the court system in these hard times"

"I also have studied Psychiatry and Medicine as well as Terrorist Negotiation Tactics on the same forums."

"Well, Mr. Jones, if nothing else, I think we can safely say that you have raised time wasting to an art form."

So from an audio recording you can tell that he had the gun pointing at his chest. I don't think so. This man will never have a fair trail. The whole world knows about this and most of the world has formed an opinion. Another big problem is no juror will want to say he is innocent. They know that if they do then their life and their families life will be in danger. I believe in our legal system but I would not risk myself or my family for something that is going to throw me away once I do my civic duty. Look at all the people just on these forums who want to kill him. Just think how they will feel about anyone who is responsible if he is found innocent. Why do we still have outrage. All the family said it wanted was for him to be arrested and charged. I guess now they want blood.

... murder charge against George Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin shooting surprises legal experts.

Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin; so were they expecting him to be charged with breaking and entering, or auto theft?

This trial is a FARCE. The piling on and profiting from this tragic death continue. First it was the media and now the lawyers turn. Two days ago Defense lawyers made a big deal over not talking to their "client" in a couple of days....like that's news worthy. Now a DA gets her chance at politics.

And to know she's likely OVER CHARGED with second degree murder seems like trial suicide. He would have been arrested 4 weeks ago if there was second degree murder evidence. At best he should be charged with manslaughter.

This stinks just like that Duke lacrosse rape case. The DA in that case is serving time in prison I think.

Let's look at this in a simple way: if some guy stalks you and you confront him, he may pull out a gun to defend himself. At this point, are you really the aggressor if you attack him? Or are you acting in self defense?

Two quick points, thoughts or questions....

1. If Zimmerman isn't convicted I also believe there will be riots, looting etc. I hope the police are ready for that. Why didn't that happen when OJ walked free?

2. This business about Zimmerman calling martin a 'c o o n'. Is that wrong? yes....but why in music videos, hollywood movies and in my daughters high school is it ok for the black community to call eachother n i g g e r s.??? If I call a colleague at work that word and say 'what up N...' I'd be walked out! My BLACK girlfriend explained its because black people are ignorant and stupid. Her words, not mine.

Media has said -

Zimmerman called the local police telephone number, not 911

Zimmerman was walking back to his truck and punched by martin

Witness saw martin pounding Zimmermans face into the sidewalk

There's a lot here to defend Zimmerman.... I believe the riots are coming!

It seems that Mr. Zimmerman apparently went looking for confrontation, picked a fight, soon found himself on the loosing end of it, and shot Mr. Martin. I hope this series of events will negate the value of the "stand your ground" defense.

Never a need to rush it.I would rather see a sound investigation that is not affected by politics.No matter what the results,people will be unhappy because so many have an opinion,but I will be happy to see all the evidence on both sides presented and a jury rule on it.I am still confident those involved will get their say and we will hear the verdict.I don't have much faith that those on either side will be happy and we shall see problems whatever the verdict.

So, you think the initial "investigation" was sound and not affected by politics? Because, given the initial investigation, George Zimmerman would be a free man right now.

How do we go from "no crime committed" to "2nd degree murder"?

There was a black guy (69 years old) who killed a 41 year old white man in Florida, who attempted to use "stand your ground" as defense. He was arrested and is awaiting trail. Why shouldn't Zimmerman be treated exactly the same?

Two quick points, thoughts or questions....

1. If Zimmerman isn't convicted I also believe there will be riots, looting etc. I hope the police are ready for that. Why didn't that happen when OJ walked free?

2. This business about Zimmerman calling martin a 'c o o n'. Is that wrong? yes....but why in music videos, hollywood movies and in my daughters high school is it ok for the black community to call eachother n i g g e r s.??? If I call a colleague at work that word and say 'what up N...' I'd be walked out! My BLACK girlfriend explained its because black people are ignorant and stupid. Her words, not mine.

So you are a racist, dating a self-hating black female I gather?

With what was released, there is no way for us to tell if he followed or not. With what has been made public, you could make the case for either depending upon bias. Bias has no place in justice.

What? Have you paid any attention to the facts, DB?

Zimmerman called 911 to report a suspicious person.

The 911 tape was released, and on it the dispatcher asks Zimmerman, "Are you following him?" You can hear Zimmerman breathing harder and it sounds like he's moving.

Zimmerman responds, "Yeah", and the dispatcher says, "OK, we don't need you to do that."

Trayvon was shot on a pathway that runs behind the townhouses, nowhere near the street where Zimmerman's car was parked.

Why is this so hard for some of you to picture???

All you experts really like picking Zimmerman apart but how about you look at trayvon's record of drug use, gang activity, trouble with the law, problems at school, etc.etc???? When Z is found innocent I'm sure all you people who want "justice" will proceed with your riots to show how much you care about law and order.

"Trayvon's Mother: 'I Believe It Was an accident' - Martin's Parents Appear On NBC's 'Today' Show"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm - Sort of undercuts the special prosecutor's case of 'Second Degree Murder', which requires that the defendant actually intended to kill someone.

'Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"'.

In addition to kaybeetoys's remarks. The uneditted version of his tape, he was supposed to meet the cops somewhere near the entrance of the community. I don't have a map of the area, but is reasonable to believe that IF he called within walking distance to this location, he shouldn't have crossed paths with Trayvon since Trayvon was on his way BACK to the house, whereas Zimmerman was talking about meeting near the enterance of the community.

Kaybeetoys "What? Have you paid any attention to the facts, DB? The 911 tape was released, and on it the dispatcher asks Zimmerman, "Are you following him?" You can hear Zimmerman breathing harder and it sounds like he's moving. Zimmerman responds, "Yeah", and the dispatcher says, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Trayvon was shot on a pathway that runs behind the townhouses, nowhere near the street where Zimmerman's car was parked. Why is this so hard for some of you to picture???"

It's nice of you to forget about the rest of the 911 call, where Zimmerman says he lost contact and was heading back to his car. Zimmerman says that he was attacked from behind a few minutes later, and an eye witness says they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, beating him.

"Why is this so hard for some of you to picture???"

There seems to be a lot of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's already made up" going on with this case.

Mario: That's kind of how I read it it too, although I think there was a gap between the initial confrontation and the fight.

Well, it seems the race thing has calmed down some huh? Hate crime? Not even close. 2nd degree murder, not even close. Manslaughter in the heat of the moment? Possibly. Let the courts decide with the evidence they have.

Either outcome of guilt or innocence of manslaughter or 2nd degree, no one will be happy. Just another media farce we won't be able to avoid.

My background is military so I have a great deal different view of the use of handguns. (i.e., you do not use a weapon to threaten or intimidate, you draw it only when you intend to shoot, and you shoot only when you have a clear RoE target, and you always shoot to kill.) And I would not hesitate to use a handgun to defend myself or my wife.

My wife is a PhD research psychologist. Her cohort refers to concealed handguns as "penis extenders." There have been lots of undergraduate studies of data available from concealed carry permits and applications to buy a firearm --- which is a very small amount of data admitedly. But some things come across loud and clear. People with concealed carry permits tend to be short, averaging 5'6"-5'7", and are overweight as more than twice the rate of the general population. What is completely absent is people over 6' with normal work unless their line of work (policeman, jewelry courier, etc) requires it. I had to carry a weapon, supposedly 24/7, for ten years when I was in the service. It did me out of a lot of home-cooked meals.

But I also understand the need for rigorous legal tests for the use of deadly force. Killing is a very serious affair, even though many so-called Christians seem to feel that they have a free pass in that regard. But there has been a "triple test" for self-defense that has its roots in both English Common Law and Napoleonic Code: a) you must be defending lives, never property. b) you must either have tried to flee or be physically unable to flee, and c) you must have very specific indications that the attacker had deadly force available (it could be as little as a 2x4) and that he indended to use it. These tests are quite liberal in their interpretation but must be met in order to claim self defense.

As an example, when I lived in Virginia I had friends who were Iranian. I tutored their kids in math. They worked and bought a rundown triangular building. The basement they turned into a botique and they lives in the upstairs. They really did a great job of majing it look very nice. But their one major complaint was that there was no way to get from the shop to the living quarters without going outside. No stairs and only one door that opened on a sidewalk. One day a drug addict came in to rob the place. He had a long police record of both drugs and robbery. The video camera in the shop showed him clearly making the threat, "Give me your money or I will kill you" as he stuck his hand inside of his jacket. At that point she pulled a shotgun and almost cut him in two. Everyone agreed it was a case of self-defense. But it went downhill from there. She was tried for manslaughter in order to protect her since there is no statute of limitations on deaths. She was charged with 1st degree manslaughter and she pleaded not guilty by reason of self-defense. The robber turned out to be unarmed, but she still met the criteria for self-defense completely. And the judge simply gave the jury a directed verdict of not guilty. But it was very sad in that the legal expenses of the trial were more than their savings could handle. They lost their home and shop and went bankrupt. The bottom line is that no one should ever decide that you can shoot someone and you will just escape with no consequences at all. Even in the best of circumstances there are consequences.

The authors of Florida's SYG law have already said that the circumstances of the shooting do not come close to the provisions of the SYG law and that they would so testify in any trial. But the truth remains that the law is so vaguely worded that almost anyone can shoot almost anyone as long as he feels "threatened." No one is going to accept that the SYG law covers a situation where you stalk then kill a resident of your own community with no other reason that he was black and wearing a hoodie.

If you take any one of the detailed timelines availoable on the web and use google earth to follow it, you see that Zimmerman's story does not hold water for self-defense. He was the aggressor. The kid was a resident of the community and belonged there. It was raining and the kids hoodie was up. And the police had told him not to follow or confront the kid. We will never know the full truth about what transpired because the Sanford police failed to secure the crime scene and "coached" or "corrected" almost all the eyewitness accounts. No evidence, such as blood splatters or trampled grass was ever collected and was allowed to be washed away by the rain. And a huge amount of time was given Zimmerman to rehearse and get his story lined up.

One of the most valuable tools in police work and intelligence is the initial interview. It is extremely important to get a person's statement as immediately ans in as much detail as possible. Then the tedious work of making him tell it over and over and over again begins. A fabricated story or alibi will "drift" with each retelling. You can compare the first telling and the 7th or 8th and usually it jumps right out at you. A true story will also change a little as things are remembered and other things forgotten, but the basic story won't drift. But the Sanford police gave up this most important of all investigative tools and allowed Zimmerman to have a huge amount of time in seclusion to perfect his story, contrary to all accepted police practice.

This stinks just like that Duke lacrosse rape case. The DA in that case is serving time in prison I think.

Exactly. I hope that ugly hag gets more time behind bars than Zimmerman spends waiting for bail. She is a special prosecutor for the state of Florida. She is the THIRD group to go over the"evidence" and this Gloria Alred wannabee decides their is enough evidence for 2nd degree murder?

Check it out arm chair lawyers. If they had that sortof evidence then they would of already arrested the officers on the scene, that must've covered up said evidence, and the paramedics who would also be complicit in the massive cover up.

Did you hear Trayvon's parents today. They are sure it was an accident. Why? Because the "Special Ed" prosecutor let them know some of the evidence she has. Now if the parents think it was an accident how could that chimp of justice believe she could get Murder 2?

My only wish is that everyone that has profited on this would get whats coming to them. That includes lawyers, media people, officers in Sanford that leaked information, and especially those racists Al, Jesse, and Geraldo who have stirred this into a glimps back into the 60's. All for profit.

I mean who would get copyrights on slogans about their dead son? just think about that.

Now back to the evidence. I would love to hear this magic tape that has Trayvon crying for 15 seconds while Zimmerman is supposedly taking aim. Ive heard the same tape you have heard, unless you are that rat in the Sanford PD, and if you actually can hear a teenager crying then you also heard the coon comment. Even though national news as proved that was all false...

This will go down as a huge black eye for some people, including people like our beloved president who said if he had a son he would be just like Trayvon, right up until Obummer found out on the news 4 days later that Trayvon wasnt the adorable little boy in the pictures given to us by the media.

You dont see Zimmerman in an orange jump suit and 13 year old Trayvon now do you?

Lawsuits will fall from the sky when this is over.

The main problem I see is that too many of us are hypocrites!! Some of the same people I've seen here multiple time saying we don't have all the evidence and not to pass judgment and are now passing judgment. The prosecutor looked at all the evidence and reinvestigated and decided that indeed a murder was committed and Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder, according to that evidence. You don't think she has the evidence (though you have not seen same). I'll accept her words over yours!! Do you accept that? Nooooo!! She is over reaching, controlled by the media, afraid there might be riots, is a tool for the Obama administration???? And then this: Boy she is big and fat; she is the ugliest woman I've ever seen; bet she checks her bag twice at the pick up window. What in the bottom of hell does this has to do with anything?

One Drop Rule: Complete ignorance here! The one drop rule was created by white people for the benefit of white people. Due to incessantly breading with slaves, there were many who was not wholly white who could pass. Hence the one drop rule. It said that the race of the child would be determined by the race of the father, except in the case of a black man and a white woman or a black woman and a white man. It goes on to say that if an individual possessed one drop of black blood, the child is considered black regardless of his/her parentage. Just wanted to clear that up.

Mama: Well mama, just well mama!!! I'm speechless!

Kangaroo Court: If not for the media, we would have no court. We had already killed all the kangaroos, gave justice a warning to get out of town before sunrise.

So about the evidence, and let the courts decide, I say let's. The prosecutor say she has the evidence. My money is on her!!

Excellent post, Chris. You tell it like it is.

None of the recent events in this case are a surprise to me. I have felt all along that the local DA citing the 'stand your ground law' as a reason to not prosecute has been nothing but a box of excuses on his part. Murder is murder, and while the 'SYG' law might complicate things slightly, it is only a very minor obstacle. I do not see where it is any more of an issue than frivolous claims of self defense in any willful injury or homicide case, and those happen - and are rejected - all the time.

I found the charges surprising as well. Based on what we know there is no way this could have been 2nd degree murder. Although it's definitely possible that the prosecution knows something we don't. I think it's likely that the prosecution went with the maximum charge to placate the public. I think it's also likely that Zimmerman asked for a charge in his conversation with the prosecution. If he really is innocent what alternative does he have to clear his name?

Chris,

In some states that kid would be an adult.

The police didnt tell him anything. A 911 dispatcher advised him to cease following.

How did Zimmerman, like your Iranian friend, know what Trayvon had or didnt have in his possession?

If Trayvon really ambushed Zimmerman and bashed his head into concrete, etc., how is that not enough for the SYG defense to be used?

You must be watching the underground cable propaganda network because I have yet to see an expert say that SYG couldnt be used. Actually I have seen 4 experts say that this is cut and dry unless more evidence emerges.

All you need to see or hear is Trayvon's parents saying it was an accident. Do you know why? Because the special prosecutor shared evidence with them while notifying them that charges would be pressed.

Chris,

Please dont start a ridiculous post like yours with, I was in the military. You demean the rest of us that actually did serve and have an IQ over 90.

@usa1967,

Just so you know ---

1) The only "evidence" of drug involvement by Martin was that school cops found an empty sandwich bag in his backpack that "smelled like marijuana." He was suspended for that alone and that is the entire story. It was leaked in violation of state law by the Sanford police department as a part of their aborted "blame Mertin" campaign. The wording of the suspension was "for possible evidence of possible drug paraphenalia."

2) There was no evidence of any gang activity by Martin. This was a speculation by the police. When pressed, they stated that they had absolutely no evidence of Martin being involved with gangs and that most of the gang problems in the area are associated with Latino gangs --- short, fat guys with shaved heads who wear long sleeved jackets in the hottest weather to hide their tattoos.

3) There was no evidence of Martin having problems at school. He was an A and B student characterized by his English teacher as "majoring in cheerfulness." We was well liked by his teachers whose only criticism was that sometimes he waited until the last moment to do his homework and occasionally failed to study for a test.

4) If you follow the timeline, the phone calls, and use google earth to gauge where things happened, you will see that Martin was on a direct line between the convenience store and the home in the gated community where he lived. You will also see that as Martin realized he was beiong followed on foot, he first walked faster, then as Zimmerman began running he ran. But when he came to what appeared to be a cul-de-sac, he stopped and confronted Zimmerman. It appears that Martin acted entirely in self-defense.

5) Martin was a resident of the gated community. Ever been to a gated community? They keep lists of all residents and guests to prevent exactly this sort of thing. The community did not even have such a list. It was about 30% African-American and one would always expect to see lots of Black kids on the streets --- along with other residents of the community.

The BS idea that you can shoot someone because he was black or wearing a hoodie or walking on the street and you do not perceive him as a resident is bizarre. People who think the way you do are a menace to society. Angry people with guns really have no place in society.

She is not the prosecutor for the area. She is a special prosecutor, brought in by the state of Florida, to do what the DOJ wanted done.

She is the THIRD person to go through this supposed evidence and she magically found something the first two groups didnt. With the DOJ breathing down her neck.

And you people say that she should be given a break?

This is a kangaroo court, a miscarriage of justice. Everything that Black America has been fighting for, equal treatment in justice, freedom from lynch mobs, has just been erased by their own hand. All for the enrichment of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Just like the Duke Lacrosse team, this to shall end badly for those who make a tragedy into a media spectacle.

SHAME.

Hey Chris,

Would you like to pull the handle when they hang Zimmerman?

it's likely that the prosecution went with the maximum charge to placate the public

Nailed it!

You took the words out of my mouth. Chris don't degrade us Veterans in your ignorance please if you in did were in the military even if you had some knowledge in hand guns "YOU WERE NOT THERE NOR YOUR WIFE!!you were not trained to do bias opinions on pending investigations! 5' 7" is short? that's about your average American height. seriously your IQ is well below that of 90 and would doubt you even made it in the service with mental disabilities.

Does anyone remember the part of the 911 tape where GZ says "he's checking me out" and "he's got his hand down his pants". Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe GZ thought TM WAS armed with more than just skittles and iced tea?

I am not saying that GZ is innocent by any means. I'm just asking the question. To the posters in this forum that say we don't know what GZ was thinking at the time, you're absolutely right. We also don't know what TM was thinking. Most teenagers think they're invincible and nothing can happen to them. This is certainly a tragedy for EVERYONE involved.

As far as the murder 2 charge, unless the prosecution has a ton of evidence that we don't know about, GZ will walk. She should have also put manslaughter on the table to get the conviction.

@f1fan6

Turn and run from these punks you say? You're forgetting the fact that GZ approached TM, not the other way around. Regardless of the outcome of the trial, there's no denying GZ put himself in a position he should have never put himself in regardless if there was an intent to kill or not.

@J. Merle Stanley-2759623

An eyewitness later against no physical evidence that this occurred. GZ claims to have been attacked getting back in his truck, while the body of TM and GZ were found in a grassy area between 2 buildings after the first arriving officer got out of his vehicle to investigate. No signs of injuries on TM that would have suggested a violent attack against GZ. No signs on GZ that he sustained the injuries he claims. Have there been medical records revealed showing head lacerations and a broken nose? If not you would assume they would have to have some sort of evidence if they're going to claim that's what happened. He sure didn't appear to be injured in the video. Typically a broken nose is going to lead to bleeding, lots of bruising, some sort of visible signs. From the time of the first 911 call to the time we saw GZ at the police station was something like 35 minutes, including a 15 minute ride to the station. So in those 20 or so minutes police got on scene, rendered aid to Trayvon, tried to sort out what happened, got GZ all cleaned up and looking like he just got out of the shower and dressed and no worse for the wear and into the back of a police car for transport? Come on now.

Eye witness or not, physical evidence is a lot more credible. I can say I saw you do something, doesn't mean you did it.

First off audio experts have debunked the coon remark , saying it was cold. Second off when told to quit following indicators are that he did as evidenced by the dispatcher asking for his address and his reply I'll give it to you quietly because I don't know where he is. This was a tragic accident brought by both parties. One person going to far with his neighborhood watch duties and another not willing to let things go. Even the parents of Trayvon believe it to be an accident. It saddens me to read all these racist comments, blindness might be the only cure

Every single person on here whining that just charging him is a travesty of justice would have been hanging the shooter if he was black and the victim was white. Why try to cover up your racist tendencies, it's ok to be racist - you're in America, as long as you're not directly oppressing someone you can always wish you could.

What the hell does it matter if he looked like O.J. or TubeSock Shakur or a Hells Angel, if he was so scary looking why get out of your car and corner him?? Also someone - J. merle or Ron Wilson on here said "if he just told him I live here with my dad" --- why didn't Zimmerman tell him "I'm neighborhood watch, I don't recognize you - I called the cops and they're on the way"... Oh jeez, we don't know - maybe they both said something similar. Maybe Maybe Maybe...

All I know is I'd bet my last dollar that every single person on here sniveling GZ got charged bcse of all the pressure - would, without a doubt - do a 180° on this if the dead guy was white. They keep claiming fear of black rioting is why GZ was charged. They don't think the rest of us can't see that their fear of the black boogeyman is why they think it's ok GZ pussed out, tried to be a hero, got punched in the face and shot the kid like the coward he is.

I have more respect for the people here who just state they hate blacks, then the ones pretending they can come up with a plausible scenario to justify this wannabe community cop killing a man in cold blood.

I'm a lover of the 2nd Amendment and this just gives more b.s. for the anti-gun crowd to use as fodder. GZ screwed up, it was a bad shoot and he will probably plea to manslaughter, which I think is appropriate, unless we find out from his other 47 calls to 911 they were all about blacks or he made stupid comments on those calls as well.

Does anyone remember the part of the 911 tape where GZ says "he's checking me out" and "he's got his hand down his pants". Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe GZ thought TM WAS armed with more than just skittles and iced tea?

Just like police departments always think that black males are "armed" before they shoot them to death??

I am just glad I am not on the jury. He is still innocent until proven guilty. If the prosecution can prove he is guilty. I have no problem with the charge. It can sound like he is guilty and maybe he is not? Or maybe the prosecution has something we do not know about. And he is guilty as sin.

If so let the punishment fit the crime. Guess that is why I am at least happy it will most likely go to trial. Not for Zimmerman's sake but for T. Martin and the community. They got the charge now lets see if it sticks. If it does not and it was self defense. Well the defendant should go home.

The whole show Zimmerman has been putting on with his lawyers and such should make anyone question his integrity as a person. Really donations via a website such class.

The SYG law in Florida is more lenient to those who pull the trigger and shoot someone because they 'felt threatened' than it is to those who pull a gun on someone but don't ever shoot it.

Go figure.

Every single person on here whining that just charging him is a travesty of justice would have been hanging the shooter if he was black and the victim was white. Why try to cover up your racist tendencies, it's ok to be racist -

All I know is I'd bet my last dollar that every single person on here sniveling GZ got charged bcse of all the pressure - would, without a doubt - do a 180° on this if the dead guy was white.

@Kurt....people like you and your BLANKET statements above are the problem in this country. You INSIST on using racism as a tool to further YOUR agenda. A bigot like quality in itself.

The people who feel these charges are meritless are NOT racist. Do you not have any capacity to think on your own? Any fundamental knowledge of our legal system? Over the last 7 weeks NUMEROUS legal experts poured over the evidence in this case. DOJ/FBI, a handful of DA's and numerous police investigators all FOUND nothing to charge GZ with. I guess by your reasoning THEY ARE ALL RACIST also...give me a break.

You want to make a case like many others about why GZ is guilty....go ahead. But please stop with the "those that disagree with me are RACIST" argument....it's just childish.

She is not the prosecutor for the area. She is a special prosecutor, brought in by the state of Florida, to do what the DOJ wanted done.

She is the THIRD person to go through this supposed evidence and she magically found something the first two groups didnt. With the DOJ breathing down her neck.

America Today -Anthony, is SPOT on here folks.

Something of a political nature is underway here....and we should WATCH very closely. And....if it plays out that this "assigned DA" has NO NEW EVIDENCE to support 2nd murder...and if GZ is found innocent; THEN there should be consequences for her (DA) to face. We can't condone judicial manipulation has a means for political gain.

I still can't believe most people don't see this LEAP from manslaughter to 2nd murder as a red flag.

Can anyone tell me when neighborhood watch volunteers went from being people who report suspicious activity to the police, to being people who confront 'strangers' on the street with loaded, concealed handguns?

Is there anyone here who supports that?

". Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe GZ thought TM WAS armed with more than just skittles and iced tea?

Sure, it occurred to me. It's likely actually, someone as paranoid as Mr. Zimmerman undoubtedly felt that Trayvon was packing. Which is even more evidence that Mr. Zimmerman is a reckless fool and should not have a CCW permit (I have one myself)..... if he thought Trayvon was packing, how stupid can you be to pursue him when you are not a trained police officer? Why do people think it's ok for someone to play cop? Some of ya'll have seen too many damn movies. This is what actually happens when someone plays cop - they don't save the day, instead, they end up killing unarmed teenagers.

But yaknow what? He was wrong.... so very wrong. So completely and stupidly wrong that it got the kid killed.



Can anyone tell me when neighborhood watch volunteers went from being people who report suspicious activity to the police, to being people who confront 'strangers' on the street with loaded, concealed handguns?

Is there anyone here who supports that?

Seriously, no kidding.... ridiculous. That alone should be enough to get him put away for awhile. We got enough idiots running around, we don't need idiots with CCW permits on top of that.

5) Martin was a resident of the gated community

Good thing I never expect to find facts on the internet...

Martin was a resident of the gated community

I don't believe this to be true. He was a guest of his fathers girlfriend who is a resident. Pretty sure about that.

Chris WTG Good POSTS SIR!!!!

usa1967

All you experts really like picking Zimmerman apart but how about you look at trayvon's record of drug use, gang activity, trouble with the law, problems at school, etc.etc???? When Z is found innocent I'm sure all you people who want "justice" will proceed with your riots to show how much you care about law and order. Really now Just like the Casey Anthony case riots too. See your sureness shows that you are not a clear thinker,but you just know it don't you.

Where is your link to such accusations now sir, the only one with a record is Zimmerman. So please provide it/them or stop with the typing

People who think the way you do are a menace to society. Angry people with guns really have no place in society. Could not have said it better myself Chris Thanks for the use of your line.

There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. I am afraid that there is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public. -

Booker T. Washington

.

Man if that doesn't describe people like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the rest of the race baiters.

Booker T was a wise man.

Folks: This is the issue -

1. Second-degree murder is a CRIMINAL action and the jury has to find the defendant guilty BEYOND A SHADOW of a doubt. This means that you have to be 98%+ certain the man is guilty. This also means that if just ONE juror has some doubts the man will found innocent. (Yes, this is why O.J. was found innocent of criminal action).

2. If this goes to a CIVIL action, then the defendant can be found guilty if the jury finds there is only a 50%+ feeling the defendant is guilty. This is how O.J. was prosecuted.

3. If Zimmerman is found guilty of a criminal act, this would be a travesty of justice. I feel there is doubt as to the man's actions and the events. Even if this doubt is seemingly insignificant - this is not guilt Beyond a Shadow of a doubt.

4. We should be arguing the LAW here - not race.

This is what's going to happen. Zimmerman is going to be found NOT-GUILTY of any criminal action. He will then be tried for Wrongfull Death as a Civil matter and be found guilty.

Actually, if Zimmerman is found not guilty, due to self defense, he cannot be tried in civil court.

Actually, if Zimmerman is found not guilty, due to self defense, he cannot be tried in civil court.

Yes, he can. He can be tried in a civil court for liability for Trayvon's death just as O.J. was tried for the deaths of his ex-wife and Ron Goldman. Even though it was in self-defense, they can prosecute if they can show that he used excessive force, which would constitute negligence.

There is a number of different scenarios that could be in play. The jury could find him 'not guilty' of 2nd degree murder, but 'guilty' of manslaughter. Or they could find him not guilty on all accounts due to insufficient evidence, but that doesn't mean he is not guilty because of 'self defense'. I highly doubt there is going to be a 'not guilty' because of self defense. Yesterday Robert Zimmerman Jr, the brother of George Zimmerman, stated that his brother was getting his head slammed into the pavement so hard that he feared for his life! The interviewer noted that GZ didn't look like he was seconds away from being brain dead when he walked into the police station a few hours later. Robert Zimmerman then stated that it was actually that Trayvon was covering GZ's mouth as blood was pouring into his nose and mouth, and that he couldn't breathe, and fearing for his life he shot Trayvon. The story as to how GZ felt his life was in danger is changing as they go! I don't believe this was 2nd degree murder, I believe GZ probably is a 'very insecure' person. I believe he had an 'irrational fear'. I believe he probably that this guy was going to take my gun from me, so I better shoot him! I don't believe he had much thought about it, it was a bang, bang reaction. People like him, should not be allowed to carry a concealed weapon. I do believe this was avoidable, even if GZ was getting beat up. GZ carried the gun into this situation, he is responsible for the death. I 100% don't believe that GZ would have even followed if not for his gun!!! and I don't believe that he would have died had he not had a gun, he would have just had his butt kicked. So No I don't believe this was murder at all, it was negligant homicide, ie manslaughter. I will say one thing, the family should have got together from the beginning and all told the same story, not a 'changing' story as to why he felt his life was in danger. The Zimmerman family should just keep their mouths shut, everytime they open their mouths, it just makes them seem like they are covering for their family member.

You guys certainly raise Jackson and Sharpton to the highest high!!! I respect some of the things they do, but this is amazing???? According to you America can't function unless there is Jessie or Al? White men needs a drink of water, needs Jessie and Al first. Justice system can't work, because of Jessie and Al. Need someone to hate, pull out the ole Al and Jessie dolls. I only have a few other things to say: Go Al; Go Jessie!!!

“It is a peculiar sensation, this double-consciousness, this
sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others, of measuring
one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and
pity.”

HOG Lover! Here are two more quotes to go with the only one you already have
“The cost of liberty is less than the price of
repression.”

W. E. B. Du
Bois quote

W.E.B. DuBois left this country and died impoverished and disgraced.

Man if that doesn't describe people like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the rest of the race baiters.

Booker T was a wise man.

Why do folks love Booker T Washington's passive, take abuse ideology?

Probably because over his long years he acquired something so many refuse to see - wisdom.

Booker T Washington was indeed a wise man, who understood that there are opportunists who use problems for self-aggrandizement. Many, across the board, could be accused of that. Of course, to misuse an existing problem for your own gain presupposes that the problem is real, and he of course knew that racism was a real and persistent problem in our society.

What is known, in hindsight, is that Zimmerman's suspicions regarding Martin were false. Martin did indeed 'belong' in that gated community. However we want to look at this, it was an initial mistake on GZs part which started this whole thing. That nobody wants to talk about a solution to that problem, instead of strident claims of racism and hypocrisy, demonstrate that Washington's exhortations have gone unheeded by those who are quoting him today.

Zimmerman can be forgiven for his mistake, because neighborhood watch volunteers do not have the training, nor the access to the necessary information to confirm or deny their suspicions. But this is exactly why they should in no case follow and confront their 'suspects'. NHW is a useful tool, folks keeping an eye out and reporting suspicions to the police for follow-up. Anything more, as any police officer will tell you, is at the very least foolish, and can very quickly turn into assault.

We don't know who attacked who in the altercation. We have one side of the story, the other side is dead. But what we do know is that at the very least, GZ acted foolishly on a mistaken assumption at the very beginning. Those of you who think he should face no consequences for his actions need to keep in mind that you are arguing against personal responsibility, and arguing for a vigilantism that goes far beyond what our laws contemplate.

If your agreement with no-consequence vigilantism is not grounded in racism, congratulations. Now you just need to explain why you support actions leading to unnecessary and tragic violence.

Michael,

OJ did not slice and dice his ex and her beau out of self defense. So you are comparing apples to oranges here. Florida law does state that if you are found to be justified in a killing (or found not guilty) then you are immune to civil liability.

Really? Had Zimmermann not been carrying a gun he most likely would have listened to the dispatchers advice and not follow/confront Matrin!!!! Guns=false-entitlement=cowards courage.

I know for a fact that the gun Zimmerman carried played as big a role in his actions than just killing Martin.

The fact that Zimmerman is trying to use "stand your ground", when CLEARLY he wasn't being attacked, and was actually stalking that poor CHILD like prey is completely astounding to me!!! We shouldn't be allowing GROWN MEN to produce acts of violence towards a minor, &then allow him to pretend he's the victim in this situation!! People need to know that using good judgment is a MUST. There's a reason we put our police officers through extensive training!! He's not some vigilante!! He's commited a criminal act, and should be punished accordingly!!!

Really?-1739510, I agree with you...There is alot we dont know about this case.Its amazing how so many people have all this evidence that the prosecuter and Zimmermans lawyers DONT have.

Really?-1739510

There, the prosecutor will have to disprove Zimmerman's claim of self defense.

As the article mentions, the burden of proof is on Zimmerman. He has to produce a preponderance of evidence that it was self-defense.

I think his first obstacle to doing that is that he followed the kid. Whether or not the police dispatcher has any authority to tell him to stop is irrelevant. Zimmerman made the first aggressive move. If I were Martin, and some strange dude was following me at night, I might decide to fight as well. As many posters have mentioned here and elsewhere, what about Martin's right to stand his ground? How was he to know that Zimmerman wasn't going to rob him, for instance?

I think the murder charge is to get a plea down to manslaughter. Manslaughter is the appropriate charge.

rockinwithdokken has an interesting point. Guns do change people, as do weapons of any kind. If you watch the Bill Cosby snippet somewhere else on this site, he talks about how having a nightstick changed the way he performed his duties while he was in the Navy. You have a weapon, you begin to actively look for trouble.

I'm not saying this is what Zimmerman did, but psychologically it has relevance. (It does not, however, have any relevance in a court of law.)

Are you kidding me, Keepitreal? I'm mexican...and have NO criminal record. In fact, i've been pulled over once in my entire life...for running a red light. What does race have to do with it? Or are you just another ignorant person trying to pull the race card? If you ARE mexican, i'm humiliated by your response. Stop playing the victim. All races are equal in America according to the Law. If YOU are putting one race above another, then obviously that's your own opinion...and you can join the rest of the "problem" people.

Really: It is not true that the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the prosecution. In many jurisdictions in this country, affirmative defenses (such as "entrapment" or "stand your ground") must be proven by the defendant, albeit to a lesser degree of proof, as is apparently the law states in Florida.

Gettysburg Address for all you racists on the Vine 8) Google it and read it.

Leslie, you prove my earlier comment...you've been deceived by the press. That picture of Martin that they have continued to show since the shooting was from when he was 13 years old. He wasn't that angelic-faced little boy when this happened, he was 6'3", very strong, and was kicking Zimmerman's butt when he was shot. But see what the press has done? They have a lot of people like you thinking of him as an innocent CHILD when he got killed. In reality, he was a CHILD no more!

KeepItReall, aside from all the stupidity of your post about Zimmerman being Mexican. It's hardly a slander to be Mexican - I don't know what that means at all. Secondly, it's inaccurate since his mother is Peruvian, not Mexican.

Way too many people are making way too many statements that are not supported by the facts. I have no idea what happened in the final moments - only a few people do and one of them is dead. I do know that most of what I read here that is posted as fact is not supported by the evidence that has so far been revealed.

@Really?;

If Zimmerman wants to use the affirmative defense of the stand your ground law, the burden of proof is on him. Its a well established legal principal that applies to a variety of affirmative legal defenses such as diminished capacity and insanity.

The prosecutor only has to prove the Zimmerman shot Martin, which is an illegal act, Zimmerman has to prove that the action was justified because he was in fear for his life.

Zimmerman also has to prove that he had no part in causing the confrontation. This is going to be very hard for him given that it is well established that he was following Martin without provocation( Martin didn't do anything illegal ), then left his car to confront Martin on foot. BTW this is not media fueled speculation, these are the well established facts that no one is disputing.

Liberalgunowner, I agree that the burden of proof to have the charges dropped under the "Stand Your Ground" law is entirely on the accused. That said,there is much in your post that is questionable. you are making a charge that isn't part of any "well established" facts. If you see a suspicious person in your neighborhood it is not a provocation to keep an eye on him while you call the police. There is no solid evidence that Zimmerman sought a confrontation with Martin. In fact, there is more evidence to suggest that it was Martin who sought the confrontation.

Let's let the evidence tell the story and not make conclusions that are not supported by the known acts.

Carrying a gun does not make you feel empowered. I carry a gun at work. I have had to pull it once at a person. I was well within my rights since he had a rifle on the floor next to his seat. I was scared and hope I never have to do that again. However if I am ever in a satiation again that warrants it I will not hesitate to pull my weapon. I do not go out and look for situations where I need to pull my weapon in the hope that I get to shoot someone. In most cases if the situation looks like it is going to be bad, I make sure that I have backup with me. Don't read something written my a comedian and apply it to every living person.

I'm from Brooklyn. Oh yeah, we're gonna have a big one down here. The big hammer is going to fall. We gotta a lot of class down here in Florida starting with the "hanging chads" thingy. Cops chasing each other down the roadway at 100+. Understandingly, over-charging a mother who lost her child.... This time we got it together, in an extra innings special. Special Prosecutor Angela Corey is a classy, charming babe too. She is going to show us all how it’s done. Deja vu, all over again. And it ain’t over till it’s over. Right Yogi.

I still don't get it!!! What is so threatening about a kid that is 6'3" tall weighing a 150 pnds. Or are these people trying to paint a picture of of someone that is 6'3" tall and muscled up to 230 pnds? And don't try to qoute the fake weight charts used by the ins. corps', they are just another way to steal money from the consumer.

@Really?-1739510 damn how much free time to do you have to post here? Plenty it seems. Let me ask you this some questions.

Why did it take Zim 8 minutes to walk back to the safety of his truck? The time between when his call ended and Tray's girlfriend's call. If she is to be believed then there was an exchange of words first, so no sucker punch. Hard to sneak up on someone when the ground is wet too, noisy. After 8 minutes of running what is he supposed to run again, and not ask WTF is going on with some kind of attitude? There is also all the other 911 calls to support that HUGE gap in time.

Why was he still in the area 8 minutes later AFTER Tray RAN? Was that area any where near where he was going to meet the police? No, he was still close to Tray's father's condo. Maybe had Zim not been in the area still, Tray would have just went home after running for 8 minutes.

Why did Zim not just ask Tray what he was doing 30 seconds or so into his call, when Tray came to check him out? Instead Zim will chase him on foot, then search for him on foot for 8 minutes while waiting for the police to come at night. It would have saved the police from coming out there and saved a life, to bad Zim was a victim of fear.

At the end of his call you hear him change his mind. He was going to go back to wait, but he wanted to search still SINCE "they always get away". Zim had already convicted Tray of some crime already, he was on drugs, dealing drugs, had stolen something, or was going to steal something. You can hear it, that is why he did not roll down his window and ask Tray a simple question 30 seconds into the call.

In fact Zim made at least 2 or 3 bad decisions in a row that put him in that situation in question. Who was the adult, that took classes on criminal justice, that should have known better? If he was attacked it was his own fault and should have taken his a$$ beating like a man. Why was he still in the area close enough that Tray could not get home 8 minutes later? Carrying the gun gave him a sense of security, if he did not have it I bet he would not have chased after a 6 foot plus black man at night. Tray should not have ran either after giving Zim a chance to speak up and say something, but to late now.

Now take a break, it is over for now, wait a year or two and we will see what happens. I think he will be acquitted due to lack of evidence myself, maybe manslaughter. I actually wanted to come here and thank Zim for turning himself in. He does not seem like that bad of a guy really, just one that made a couple of mistakes. He was trying to do good, by volunteering, but may have went over the top a little that night. Police go through special training to calm down after a pursuit because of how into the chase they get, it is almost predatory and is a natural occurrence.

You are so right! The photos that the media protrayed was of Trayvon Martin as a young teenager! He is now almost 17 and six feet tall! Mr. Zimmerman is only being charged because of the political atmosphere. In the area where Mr. Zimmerman patrolled there have been numerous break-ins, hence the necessity for civilian patrols. Mr. Martin acted very suspiciously! He is not the innocent little boy that the media, his family and the black community are trying to portray. He has been suspended from school, three times, the last for having a container with remnants of drugs. That is why he was temporarily living with his father, his father's girlfriend and her son. I would say with conviction that Mr. Martin was probably looking for "drug money" and that is why he attracked the attention of Mr. Zimmerman. The rest is history!

Well IAmJane, looks like you have all the FACTS. Maybe what you need to do now is, get a clue.

What a crock. If having a weapon makes you want to go looking for trouble, you need to grow up. I've carried concealed (with a permit) for years. I don't carry a sidearm because of any kind of phallic attachment, desire for trouble, or any of that other horse hockey psychological mumbo jumbo. I carry a sidearm because there are people and animals in the world that are dangerous and the easiest manner to insure that I don't end up in the emergency room, or the morgue is to be able to shoot them. It's normally safer for both parties if the mature one has a firearm because the threat of being shot is normally enough to convince the attacker to cease and desist. Over a million instances of the lawful use of a firearm for self defense, WITHOUT EVEN FIRING A SHOT, occur annually in this country. Few things are as effective at ending a home invasion than the sound of a round being chambered into a pump action shotgun. The faster that a defender ends a fight, the less likely they are to be injured. If an attacker is injured or killed, then they shouldn't have attacked the other person in the first place.

An eyewitness says that Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating on him. That would be assault and he would've been tried as an ADULT, not a "child". Unless Zimmerman had made an actual threat against Martin, Martin's attack would not have been considered self defense. People can follow you all day long (look at the way the papparazzi follow celebrities) and that's not considered a credible threat. If you are claiming self defense, there has to be some form of credible evidence of a threat. This entire case comes down to the EMT report and any photos that the police took of Zimmerman's clothing and injuries. A broken nose, and injuries to the back of his head equals an acquittal, IF THE JURY DOES ITS JOB. I doubt that the judge will instruct them on that. Zimmerman does have one ace up his sleeve. A Texas Law firm with expertise in defending gun owners has gotten involved. Even if they can't defend him directly, they can help get him the proper experts to prove whether he is innocent or not.

What could've saved the life of Trayvon Martin and many other young black men is teaching them respect for other people. The fact that there is discrimination in the world doesn't allow them to run around with a chip on their shoulder. Listen to the way this is being played in the media. How hard would it have been for Martin to simply be respectful to Zimmerman and politely ask him what was going on without copping an attitude? I've been asked what I was doing someplace (I've made deliveries to military installations with classified areas) and the simple answer of "Oh, I was looking for an address. Can you tell me how to get there?" works wonders. I've even wandered into places that were classified by accident and always been given directions to the correct place simply by being nice. There is an old saying that more people need to learn. "It's nice to be important, but it's more important to BE NICE."

You really have your facts wrong!

Lt Scrounge-4042308,

"Over a million instances": Can't find a single source to support this claim. Where did you get this statistic?

"Few things are as effective at ending a home invasion than the sound of a round being chambered into a pump action shotgun": George Zimmerman wasn't faced with a home invasion. He shot a kid coming home from a convenience store, said kid armed with Skittles and Arizona iced tea.

"Unless Zimmerman had made an actual threat against Martin": Come into my neighborhood and start stalking my kid, and see if I don't see it as a threat. Stick your actual.

"An eyewitness says": Now *there's* a dead horse to beat. Give me a 2x4.

"What could've saved the life of Trayvon Martin": was some wacko would-be cop packing heat staying home to watch Desperate Housewives. He could've shot his TV, which would've been a community service.

Lune

Leroy Brown

Martin was NOT a "gangster" as the Zimmerdummies liked to claim; he was simply a normal teenage boy, a little boisterous at times, smoked a little pot to be cool, got in a little bit of trouble, nothing serious.

OK this bothered me. Maybe I am out of touch or something but it seems to me that is a lot of the problem with society. Not just in our time but in all times past. "Boys will be boys, they were just having a little fun." Do you know how often that statement has been made to justify criminal behavior and bluntly it is usually at the expense of a minority person or a woman. Picture a bunch of white frat boys in the 1920s raping a black maid and having it written off that way. Picture some drunk redneck kids terrorising a black family in the 1950s and having it written off that way. Picture some white kids stealing from and vandalising a black owned business and having it written off that way. Makes you mad doesn't it? So apply the same rule in reverse... laws exist for a reason and the excuse that he was a normal teenage boy just being boisterous and breaking a few rules is pointless and dangerous. Why is it NORMAL for teenage boys to break the law? If the majority of the people decide a law is pointless it will cease to exist and in the interim ALL people are expected to follow the law. The status of being a teenage male doesn't somehow mystically elevate you above being judged by the same standard as the rest of the community.

I never realised how deeply I felt about this matter until this moment but that attitude is as much responsible for Trayvon's death as the bullet that killed him. Why don't people realise what they have a responsibility to kids to hold them accountable. Trayvon was a kid legally but physically nobody could tell the difference. Sorry he stopped looking like a kid, especially on a dark rainy night. Think about it... how different does a 17 year old look from an 18 year old? To let him or any other teenager suffer from the misapprehension they are special and their behavior will be written off as youthful hyjinx is to set them up for disaster.

I am saying this as the mother of 3 adult sons who all ended up being big guys. Even at 12 they towered over me. Commonsense told me I needed to clue them into the reality that once a male reaches a certain height and size they can be intimidating to others. Commonsense told me their behavior would be judged by their physical appearance not their calender age and no I am not saying that because I am of mixed heritage. By my sons' generation my grandmother's blood was dilluted enough that all my kids look white but big shocker here even white kids can look older than they are.

So separate from the whole guilt or innocence of Zimmerman issue maybe it is time we started raising responsible men instead of boys who don't understand that they are men. Someone should have told Trayvon "You are a big kid and people are going to see you as a man act accordingly." Am I blaming Trayvon... NO! I am blaming all of us. A 17 year old is a kid and is too young to have figured that out for himself. I think since his father was trying to take him into a new environment and change his behavior someone was trying to give him that message but sadly it came too late for Trayvon.

As adults we need to do a lot less understanding and temporizing and a lot more explaining.

If this is a case of self defense, this whole matter could have been resolved in a day! A proper investigation of Zimmerman's injuries, along with documentation and physical evidence would prove assault. If this was a simple assault case, the police would have taken the time to investigate the assault. I will admit that I don't have the evidence to make an informed opinion - but there seems to be an investigation that wasn't handled correctly. I am basing that opinion on reports of what similar communities have done with similar cases. This is why the case has been elevated to a federal level. There are laws that allow or require federal involvement in cases where local authorities essentially fail to investigate a serious crime.

On a different subject, I believe it will be a matter of time before somebody grows the stones to challenge the "stand your ground" laws on the basis of the fact that it denies a person their right to due process! Is it just me, or does it deny criminals the right to a trial by a jury of their peers? Is it just me, or do these laws deny accused criminals the right to cross examine their accusers? It is not a popular position to defend the rights of an aggressor, but it is one supported by the Constitution. Or should we throw out the whole document in favor of "trial by bigger gun"? Follow this law down the slippery slope and eventually, you arrive at the authorization of deadly force to protect property. So that meter maid placing a ticket on your windshield better be wearing Kevlar! "Your honor, I thought that black woman was breaking in to my car - " If police have guidelines regarding the use of deadly force, why are citizens with (in most cases) less training held to standards that are actually no standards at all?

Wisdom still says that flight is better than fight given a choice - the law says go ahead and fight. In conclusion, this seems to be a perfect example of something that is "lawful, but not profitable!"

It's really quite simple. Zimmerman was arrested to appease the blacks, but he was charged with 2nd degree murder which will be impossible to prove. Zimmerman walks, whites are appeased. Case closed and Obama holds a press conference to say...."Look, I've done it again!! I've saved the world. Vote for me. "

Eric Holder reports directly to Obama. Why is he involved with THIS case? I didn't see him involved with any other case. Why did Obama get involved? They BOTH saw the photo's of Trayvon at 13 and thought it was a good chance for a photo op. Too bad they didn't wait for the facts to come out! I wonder what Obama thought when he saw the recent photo's of Trayvon with the gold teeth, tattooes, and both middle fingers extended. (I saw them myself by going to Trayvons facebook page early on) There ya go Obama...a wanna be "gangsta" looks like the son you never had.

Then Holder calls on Sharpton to get involved. Can you say race riot? And of course the leftist media has to stir the pot.

The entire public was deceived by the very first picture released. That's what started this whole thing. Otherwise, it would have just been handled in the courts.

There is no merit in dragging (guess who?) Obama into this, although I'm sure someone was itching to do so. He was asked the questions at a press conference, did not initiate the exchange. Perhaps he was speaking philosophically - all children are our children. His response was short and concise. As a father, he understands how in a moments notice, his children could be in a bad situation. I worried about my three boys as they grew up - still do even though they are "men".

Leslie are you FORGETTING the 9 11 call , The woman said SHE SAW 2 MEN FIGHTING. And then she said SHE HEARD GUN SHOTS.. THINK on that... TM didnt know GZ had a gun..IF he did then he should have run or tried to be polite..Gz had a gun and the gun shots were HEARD AFTER THE FIGHTING. That 9 11 call will make it awful hard to prove 2nd degree,,, Manslaughter would have been a lot easier to prove

PJ - It sure sounds like you are blaming Trayvon. That comes off as heartless and insults both him and his parents. "...as much responsible for Trayvon's death as the bullet that killed him?" That's a horrible thing to say. Are you insinuating that if his parents only gave him better values he'd be alive? They should've explained to him that society would fear him so he'd better watch how he walks? Good, God!

You don't know what his father taught him, nor do you know anything about how he was acting on that night. Why would a young man need to be taught not to walk down the street? Perhaps it's George Zimmerman who should've been "taught better." He's the one who fired a gun and killed someone.

Zimmerman was attacked, attacked by a 6'3" kid.

There is a witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, whipping his ass before the shooting.

So who started the fight? There are no witnesses to that and if it was Zimmerman who started the fight, then he deserved to get his butt whooped. And so what if the witness saw Martin on top? That doesn't prove anything, except that Zimmerman sucks at fighting bare-knuckle and can only win a fight if he can shoot an unarmed opponent.

It's really quite simple. Zimmerman was arrested to appease the blacks

Yeah, and the reason why he wasn't arrested in the beginning was the apeal to the whites' fear and stereotyping that all black males are thugs who need to be shot like dogs.

capecodmom

PJ - It sure sounds like you are blaming Trayvon. That comes off as heartless and insults both him and his parents. "...as much responsible for Trayvon's death as the bullet that killed him?" That's a horrible thing to say. Are you insinuating that if his parents only gave him better values he'd be alive? They should've explained to him that society would fear him so he'd better watch how he walks? Good, God!

You don't know what his father taught him, nor do you know anything about how he was acting on that night. Why would a young man need to be taught not to walk down the street? Perhaps it's George Zimmerman who should've been "taught better." He's the one who fired a gun and killed someone.

I fear you are seeing what you want to see. I am responding to an earlier post expressing what I consider to be a foolish point of view. I never stated that Trayvon's parents are responsible for his being shot. I stated that we as a society are putting kids in a bad position because we have this magical number where they suddenly become adults instead of ushering them into adulthood in a responsible manner. I do not see how telling a tall teenage boy to realise that people see a man is in any way shape or form telling him what street to walk down. My point was when the poster I responded to stated that smoking weed and minor theft were basically youthful high jinx and just part of being a teenage boy he was setting other kids up to also be hurt. Our society does a poor job of raising children into responsible adults in my opinion. How you connected that to telling someone he wasn't allowed to walk down a certain street confuses me and if you go back and reread my post I pointed out that I believe Trayvon's father was trying to teach him to change his ways. I never suggested he was at fault in his son's death if anything I was saying he was trying to do the right thing and fight a social ill. I suggest a second cup of coffee to make you more mentally alert.

Michael,

Do you know how stupid that sounds? Zimmerman walked up to Trayvon and initiated bare knuckle boxing? Did you just see that Guinness commercial right before you posted that?

With even the small amount of real evidence that the public has you have to really be stretching to think that.

IMO. Trayvon had two choices. Choice #1 Walk up to a house, knock on the door, and ask for help. Choice #2 Ambush would be attacker.

Step away from your keyboard and just consider that. If you were walking in your neighborhood and some guy started following you, would you go to a neighbors and get them to call the cops, or would you hide behind a tree with your bag of Skittles and ambush?

For cripes sake people, this isnt that hard.

USA,

Love your post and I would love to see an SNL sketch(not that you ever would)of the Obama camp finding out that the lovable 13 year old picture of Trayvon was about 4 years out of style. Oh Lord that would be funny watching his camp point fingers. "Why do we ever listen to MSNBC!" "Somebody turn on FOX, they get it right half the time!"

ROFL!

Just saw statistics saying that a majority of Dems. believe Zimmerman is guilty and a majority of Reps. believe he is innocent.

That tells me that Dems. believe what they are told, and Reps. believe what they see.

In the end Zimmerman would of been better off shooting himself. Just another instance of black on white violence in the city of Sanford. Pretty much like the murder of the senior citizen the week before.

The moral of this story. Make sure your assailant is white before you defend yourself.

Yeah, and the reason why he wasn't arrested in the beginning was the apeal to the whites' fear and stereotyping that all black males are thugs who need to be shot like dogs.

What a sad way to live your life. Black America is so brainwashed by the Al Sharpton's and the Jeremiah Wright's who profit from perpetuating racist ideas.

White people dont sit in our houses dreaming of ways to shoot black males like dogs. I cant imagine the levels of psychosis you must have if you honestly believe that.

You probably dont. You just like stirring the pot and getting your 2 seconds of internet infamy.

Poser.

Really?-1739510 and mePhDwee both need to learn to read articles all the way through before they start posting (though our friend, Really?, appears to be a paid blog commentor and that might get in the way of earning a living).

Yes, the Florida Stand Your Ground Law has an extra step. That extra step is an evidentiary hearing in which the defendant can offer a preponderance of proof that three things existed: s/he was engaged in lawful activity, that s/he was somewhere that s/he was legally allowed to be, and that s/he reasonably believed his/her life was in danger (there's another clause about protecting "property"--but that's one of the many fuzzy parts of that law).

If the defendant can prove--and the burden is on the defendant, read the article--that there is a preponderance of evidence that these three prerequisites exist (notice that one doesn't have to prove that his/her life was in danger, just that s/he believed it), then that person has immunity and the case cannot proceed. This immunity step is unusual, but it is part of the given law. And, this particular law is one of the principal reasons people are upset in this case.

The reason that people are upset is that many individuals--and it sounds (from other postings) like Really? is one of them--think that little gangsta-rap wannabes (and that is a very distinct category from gangsta wannabes) are threatening. There is a large section of the white population that views any black person as threatening, and thus, even if that black person is doing exactly nothing to excite their interest--they would be likely to shoot first, shoot last, and not bother to ask any questions.

And before anyone starts in on me--remember the days when James Cagney was popular? There was a gangster image then that young boys imitated. They did not imitate the actual gangsters, for the most part, but they did adopt the garb and many liked to use the Cagney swagger and accent. There is absolutely no difference between young boys who like to adopt the gangsta-rap image and those who used to dress in pinstripe suits and imitant Cagney. It is an adolescent male affectation--and such children are about as dangerous as, oh, any young man would be. They get in fistfights, and that's about the limit of their violence. And, let's remember that getting into fistfights and swaggering about is quite likely instinctive male behavior. While it is not something to be encouraged, it is something that we should expect the way we expect two-year-olds to throw tantrums--they grow out of it soon enough, and we punish it appropriately in the meantime. We don't execute either group.

But, yes, there is a stage in this trial where Zimmerman has the opportunity to present evidence to prove that he should get immunity. He doesn't have to prove his innocence--but he does have to prove that he is deserving of immunity. Please, people, read.

America Today-Anthony says that "Dems. believe what they are told, and Reps. believe what they see." And says that this is why Republicans believe Zimmerman.

Friend--no one has "seen" Trayvon because he is dead, and no one has put up images of his dead body. All "Reps." have "seen" so far is a picture or two of Zimmerman, and he looks like a guy who has been in a very minor altercation and has not a drop of blood on the front of his shirt (well, not one anyone can see in the image, and there should be a lot if he shot someone who was immediately on top of him and pounding his head into the pavement). If you want to say that "Reps" make a lot of assumptions based on a couple of pictures--that isn't a compliment. That "Dems" actually seek out some facts first--and they have to be "told" because they are coming second hand, as they will be "told" to the jury second hand also--is a compliment.

Zimmerman would have been better off following the (non-binding) advice of the dispatcher instead of Trayvon--or wearing some kind of goofy, neon-orange, neighborhood watch vest which made him look less like a sex offender stalking a tall but relatively slim young man--or being friendly (and getting a couple of people to help him) instead of aggressive. Most police officers, before they know that someone is a threat, are really "polite" and "friendly." This helps them avoid provoking confrontations.

This "immunity" case will wind up riding on a couple of things--the injuries that Zimmerman had on the day (that he went to the doctor the next day--if he did--with a broken nose only proves that he broke his nose--not that Trayvon did it for him) and whether or not he can substantiate his version of the story (which is probably going to conflict with what he told the officers on the day, and that's one weakness in his case). The injuries (if provable) will help substantiate his claim that he feared for his life. He will have to prove that cutting between yards to get "back to his truck" meant that he was where he was supposed to be--but, of course, that will undermine any claim that Trayvon wasn't where he was supposed to be (as they are then both simply crossing other people's property to get back to their own). And, he will have to prove that following someone for no good reason like a vigilante is a "lawful activity"--that's the only one he's likely to have little trouble with, as it probably isn't "unlawful," even if it is of questionable wisdom.

But, like I said, try reading the article and then going and reading the Stand Your Ground law. There is a level at which the defendent can claim immunity but has to take on the burden of proof.

Americatoday - I saw the same statistic about Democrats thinking Zimmerman is guilty and Republicans thinking he is not.

That tells me one thing....that Democrats understand that to just be able to snuff out somebody's life takes a little more care and reasoning than Mr. Zimmerman provided, and Republicans don't particularly like black people.

You can say any stupid thing you want (as evidenced by your post) in the wake of polls.

Apparently God was on vacation that night.

I agree, Kris, and the man who penned the Stand Your Ground law even said that this law does not apply in this case. How can you stand your ground, when you are pursuing and/or following someone?

Release the autopsy report.

The "stand your ground" laws should be enacted in all 50 states. This Martin/Zimmerman case is not the norm. Law abiding citizens should be able to carry a weapon and defend themselves agains thugs - of which there are many. Jesse Jackson famously said if young black men were following him on the street, he would be afraid.

This law is a complete abomination, a corruption of what self-defense has been about for centuries. Under classical self-defense, there must exist a parity between the amount of force threatened or used and the amount of force used to defend. It's the law's way of ensuring a fair fight; it's not fair for one party to be armed with a 9 mm automatic when the other combatant has a stick. It's really unfair for someone who is lethally armed to stalk an unarmed person and wind up shooting him.

Handgun fetishists are wimps who want to walk tall, like John Wayne--they want the instrument that screams DON'T MESS WITH ME! The gun wimpy Zimmerman was carrying emboldened him to follow someone who he was afraid of and to shoot an unarmed teenager to death. Gun manufacturers, Walmart, the NRA, and ALEC should be ashamed of how these laws they've foisted on 20 states are provoking unnecessary gun violence and deaths. To all of you gun enthusiasts: you can repeat your mantra that guns don't kill people, people kill people for eons, but if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.

What if Trayvon smashed George's head until his skull cracked open Michael it doesn't take much to kill a human being.

Leave John Wayne and the NRA out of this... My wife who is 105 lbs is a wimp and she will tell you she is a wimp but if you mess with her or try to harm her she will shoot you center mass 8) it's a tool Michael nothing more.

Unarmed he may be but you can kill with your hands..

gun enthusiasts in American over 50% of the US population or more.

should be ashamed of how these laws they've foisted on 20 states are provoking unnecessary gun violence and deaths

hmm show me proof 8) The FBI statistics do not back up your claim 8) More Americans own guns then ever before & crime has been going DOWN.

To many in the media have already made him out to be guilty & that's not the American way.

The author and sponsor of the stand your ground law says there is no cover for Zimmerman under this law. He might be more of an authority than most of you hateful racist in here.

@Big Al,

Well think of it like this...........at least if Trayvon smashed Zimmerman's head into the ground the evidence would likely be a bit more solid, correct? Obviously DNA evidence would clearly be involved and the fact that an actual fight or attack insued would be beyond doubt. If you see two people fighting on the street then you know that they are fighting in the street. However, if someone sees your body laying shot and limp on the ground and I'm walking away with a gun, yes.....I MAY have been the one to shoot you but did we fight before that? Hmmm who the hell knows? Bottom line guns allow people to make killing alot more simple. No Hulk Smash necessary when you've got a subcutaneous piercing little wad of metal to handle it for you eh?

The autopsy report MUST remain secret until after the trial. It is one of the only things left to keep jurors from deciding the case before the trial starts.

Our entire political system has become an abomination, why let one little law in Florida trouble us? We have the Patriot Act, the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012, Digital Millennium Copyright Act, etc.

I think the Union should have let the entire South secede. Would have saved us a lot of trouble in the long run.

Personally, I think most of the "systems" humans invent are crap. I'd like to live on an uninhabited island by myself, gathering food and trapping, while the rest of the stupid hairless apes mill about in their useless lives in their anthills, working to make a handful of sociopaths' lives easier.

mePhDwee--here's a little statistic that you could find to defend your point. Prove that "libtards" are more frequently victimized. Bear in mind that you must get a representative population (an equal number of people of each "racial" group and an equal number of males/females and an equal number of urban/rural and an equal number of poor/workingclass/middleclass/affluent/wealthy) to make sure there is just one variable.

I assure you that if that statistic existed--you'd already know it. There is no statistic that shows that people who are liberal are more frequently victimized.

One little factor that I didn't mention was that you should get people who own guns and don't--if you did that, you'd find that there are many "libtards" that own guns. Still, you should control for that, also. And, again, you won't find any differences.

Your whole final argument about "scumbags" is the whole point. Trayvon was not a "scumbag"--he was a young man without a history of violence, he had gotten into trouble a couple of times, but I can introduce you to quite a few young men of European descent who have done a lot more but have no "history" because their wealthy parents saw to it that nothing was written down. The law allows people to shoot anyone--scumbags or slim young black men in hoodies who unfortunately cross the path of paranoid idiots with concealed weapons--and on very flimsy bases.

Yes, you can defend yourself and your family. That "right" is not God-given (it works for atheists too), but read into the Constitution by the Supreme Court.

I can't find the number of cases in which a judge has allowed immunity--but I did find this:

Garcia, of Miami's Little Havana neighborhood, did not come under attack from Roteta. Instead, he found Roteta stealing a radio from his car. When Roteta saw Garcia, he ran away, and Garcia followed him, pulling out a knife. Garcia chased Roteta for a block, cornering him, and Roteta swung his bag of radios at Garcia - the potential lethal force. It was then that Garcia stabbed him.

According to Judge Bloom, wrote the Associated Press, "[Garcia] was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property." After Garcia exercised this legal right, he was threatened by Roteta, and this is when the case for lethal force arose.

Actions after the case added to the controversy. Garcia, having mortally wounded Roteta, did not call the police, but left Roteta to die, and went home for a nap. He even initially denied to a police officer that he had killed Roteta.

What this means is that vigilante justice--which is what we see in the Zimmerman case--is being encouraged. People aren't being told to call the police, let the police apprehend the suspect, and then justice to take its course. People are being allowed to pursue people and claim that any effort by the person being pursued to protect themselves is "potentially lethal"--so the pursued can just get murdered. I'm afraid, though, that stealing radios is not usually considered an offense for which one can be executed.

The Zimmerman case is even more compelling, since Martin was doing nothing--just walking down the street. It was once he was being pursued that he reacted (though we don't really know how that reaction took shape--and I'm kind of hoping that they found a camera focused on the property and have gotten some telling evidence). Now that vigilante justice is permitted, anyone who perceives black youth as threatening (and that's a lot of white people--and, yes, Zimmerman identifies as white and did so on the police report), can pursue them, and if the black youth responds with anger or by throwing a punch, that person can shoot him/her. And, they can get away with it.

Back in the days of the Civil Rights movement, the KKK would have loved this law. I'm sure that today's anti-black crowd in Florida (many of whom are Jewish, by the way--and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Zimmerman's dad is Jewish) just love the fact that it will allow them to confront, provoke, and execute any black person who dares to come into their neighborhood.

It's a bad law. While self-defense laws might need strengthening, this is a bad law. In any case, you can be sued into bankruptcy by anyone. It doesn't have to be a gun-use case. It can be that you annoyed your HOA or that you "harrassed" someone--anyone with more money than you can sue you and sue you and sue you right into bankruptcy. That's an entirely different issue that needs to be dealt with by limiting frivolous lawsuits. Have a great day.

He will not have to prove that he had no part in the "confrontation", he will have to prove that he had withdrawn from the "confrontation". Following someone is not an aggressive act either, which also rips apart the whole "Well Trayvon was defending himself!" argument. I dont know about you, but if someone is following me I try to get to safe area, and I prepare myself to call 911 (and draw my firearm, if a threat presents itself more quickly than the police could respond). I do not, nor would any reasonable person, try to turn the tables and attack someone who is following me.

Additionally, the way I understand it is Zimmerman was no longer following Trayvon. That implies that Trayvon went out of his way to attack Zimmerman, ergo Zimmerman had withdrawn from the "confrontation" (if you can even call it that) and at that point was defending himself. It is fairly black and white. If someone were to jump you and knock you to the ground, even if they had not started bashing your head into the sidewalk, would you not be afraid? Any reasonable person would be, and anyone who has gone through that (I have) would not hesitate to take advantage of any resource they had. For Zimmerman that was his firearm.

Trayvon did not have to die that day. Zimmerman did not have to kill that day. There were poor decisions on both sides, but George Zimmerman did not commit any crime. Trayvon sealed his fate when he decided that he would assault someone who had done him no physical harm. A lot of people have made Zimmerman out to be a violent person, and a lot of people have accused Trayvon of having a violent past as well. Regardless of their past, Trayvon was the first person to initiate physical contact.

George Zimmerman was justified, and a jury will affirm that.

GYAF,

You didn't "seen that video." You saw that video. And, according to the cops, he was cleaned up by attending paramedics. "Someone" as in "light up someone" is a singular pronoun that doesn't correspond with "while they are on top of you," a plural noun.

It's hard to be persuaded by someone who expresses himself like a second grader.

Okay Michael you type better english. By the way what crime was Travonn committing the night Zimmerman decided to be his arresting office, judge, jury and executioner.

remember, Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket at the time. Do you see a red jacket in the video? You think maybe the red jacket got bloody and not the shirt underneath?

What you are really suggesting, though, is that there is a conspiracy between the police and the EMT's on the scene to falsify their reports. A little too tin-foil hat for my tastes.

The only thing I heard was the police saying what was in thier reports (hearsay). I've seen no reports, no dark dried or wet blood, no bruises and have'nt heard of any autopsy report released. But the mortician who handled the body saw things that does not seem to mean anything to allot of folks who keep chiming "wait for all the evidence", "there is a conspiracy" while at the same time showing their believe in zimmermans innocence. If he is found guilty I hope they go after zimmermans dad, the police force, the da, and all the others involved with the handling of the boys' body. Also I hope Americans wakes up and see what these fools are doing to our country. The majority of the problems we face today are the results of idiotic laws and bills passed and trumpeted by bigots and those chasing a dollar bill. They are so hatefull and petty they will hurt themselves just to hurt others. Thanks to our last administration... now when someone question something that just don't pass the smell test, they are labled mentally ill and a conspiracy theorists.

Zimmerman's nose looked pretty good on his mug shot. Pretty straight and all. Wait a minute......isn't that the nose he said was broken the night he murdered an unarmed seventeen year old minor?

Outside looking-Charge the dad with what??? STanding up for his son just like Trayvons parents did in the media?? I guess you have to charge both sets of parent with something then.

Sandie-you can have a broken nose without it being tweaked to the side or even apear to be broken without close inspecton. I know from first hand experience. My mother got her nose broken in a car accident and my daughter from an accident, walking into a tree branch in the dark. The branch won but her nose wasn't all swollen or obviouly crooked. You keep saying "murdered", killed yes, murder not proven. Would you be less an outraged idiot if he'd already turned 18?

I guess it is easier to be persuaded by trained lawyers than by someone who writes like a 2nd grader. Of course sociopaths and narcissists are well-versed in persuading people, and there are plenty of them in the legal, political and business fields.

Do women who marry lawyers marry them for their charming personalities, or is it the money that makes them wet?

Zimmerman's nose looked pretty good on his mug shot. Pretty straight and all. Wait a minute......isn't that the nose he said was broken the night he murdered an unarmed seventeen year old minor?

The current one? The one that is almost 6 weeks since the incident? That's what you are judging?

Amazing...

The current one, from yesterday, when he finally was arrested. But also, his nose looke just fine in the tape six weeks ago as well.

A police surveillance videotape isn't a "representation" of anything. How on earth is what his neighbor said he saw "facts" and what you can see with your own eyes is some sort of staged theater?

Florida is a stinking cesspool! The Wal-Mart capital of the country. Full of big, gigantic, flying cockroaches that the natives call palmetto bugs, mutant sized mosquitos, fire ants and roadkill everywhere. Illiteracy runs rampant because the schools are so bad. Look who those fools elected as their governor, Rick "I plead the fifth" Scott. Florida is a sickness that the rest of the country needs to secede from.

Funny,

I though Florida was full of rich folks from Jersey and New York?

Sandie: Were you born an ignorant, dim-witted dolt or did you have to work at it?

Boy the hate statement are in full ruffle this morning. Listen, I live in Florida and I have lived in more places for more years than most of you here has been alive. Florida is no different, in actuality, than any other state in America--as a matter fact the world. The legal system has to be equal and just, and transparent. Otherwise, no one will respect it. I've seen miscarriages of justice carried out all over our country; from Florida to California, from North Dakota to Alabama, from all points. People can believe what they want and form any opinion they want, but the law must be equal and lawful, or it will not be respected. Some of us have been on the receiving end of an unequal and unjust legal system and has a pretty good understanding of what the law is suppose to look like. What we saw in the initial phase of this horrible tragedy. Now, let all the hateful venom begin, but you can't change that. The truth will stand regardless!! Goodday

Maybe Florida is a stinking cesspool partly because of rich folks from Jersey and New York. Or it could be the high violent crime rate in Florida cities. One of those states that can't seem to do much, right, like Arizona or California. Maybe its sunstroke or something.

It seems that areas that get larger amounts of sunlight have greater amounts of lunacy or less self-restraint. (Compare Canada or Sweden to Rwanda or Saudi Arabia).

Well said!

Amen, inthemiddlebill! However the good old boy of justice will never go away and more's the pity.

To think Trayvons poorents waited 2 days to report him missing

Roger, why do you LIE?

It was reported that Trayvon was walking under the eaves of the buildings. I could never find what time he left for the store. But, he was seen and 15 minutes later he was seen again. There was more than one call about this mess. What would you think in a high crime area? The side walk was a walkway they had put behind the houses for walkers - not a normal sidewalk in front of the house. As for the BIG VIDEO about the head injury no showing. If you have had a bump on the head or a black eye - they shows later - not within an hour or so. The police did take him in to question him - with his hands restrained - and they questioned the eye witness (who was a younger black boy). I do not understand why everyone says they just let him go. The eye witness, who is now afraid since the media released his name and address said Zimmerman turned to go back to his vehicle and Trayvon jumped on him, knocked him to the ground and was punching him and banging his head on the sidewalk. You could find this story on the net about 10 days ago. It was in one of the local papers in Florida.

LOL....

The eye witness, who is now afraid since the media released his name and address said Zimmerman turned to go back to his vehicle and Trayvon jumped on him, knocked him to the ground and was punching him and banging his head on the sidewalk.

Lord HAVE MERCY....Where did you get that???

The witness "John" never showed his face, and no one gave out his address! He probably had the brains to stop talking to FAUX.

He NEVER saw how it started and he NEVER saw how it ENDED!

This is like a game of telephone, that we played in kindergarden! Remember, the teacher whispers something in the first persons ear, and by the time it gets to the last person, it is completely DIFFERENT!

We aren't in KINDERGARDEN any more!

Bingo! The only "facts" anyone knows is what the media has reported.

Really Laura? We are supposed to arrest people BEFORE we have the facts? Maybe....just maybe the police didn't arrest Zimmerman because of the LACK of evidence against him. I think you either reveal your notion that he's already guilty based on media "evidence" or that you think the judicial system is in place to satisfy your curiosity of someone's guilt or innocence. Why do you assume the system has failed from the beginning unless you have already determined he's guilty?

I don't know if he's guilty or not. I have no more evidence than anyone else on this blog. Let's just hope the prosecution has the evidence and is not bowing to "pressure".

Anyone that says:

If I were on the jury I would hang it just to pay back for the O.J. farce.

Has some screws loose....

I am definately not, never been and never will be a racist. Please answer this question. Why is it when people of different color cause such upheaval when one of their race gets killed, and causes our country to be divided. What if the shoe was on the other foot and one of theirs killed one of the other color. Would there be such an uproar about this injustice? NO, because then these people would scream we are picking on them. It's about time people stop crying oh please pity us because we are a minority. There has been a lot of spectulation about how this will end. No one here knows exactly what happened that night. It will be a wait and see situation. However it turns out it's going to cause more discention.

Right on. All we know for a fact is there is a dead body and a 911 tape. Perfect post mtl. This will be decided in a court of law as it should be.

Leroy, I do not live in fear, I live in faith. I am a Christian man who believes that God created all men in his own image and that each and every one of us is loved by God. If another one of God's children attacks me or my family, then yes I will do my dead level best to preserve our lives and safety. You sir, have no call to insult or label me because I choose to exercise my second amendment right to protect myself from ill-willing others. I will not hide behind locked doors in fear of a degrading society but rather walk boldly and know that I am capable of defending myself and my family.

Have a nice day.

Leroy - in a land where people are free and possess rights given to them by their Creator, it is my privilege to arm myself and protect what is mine - whether it be my home, possessions, my family, and myself. There are, unfortunately, people who feel the need to TAKE what is lawfully and rightfully mine, and when they try, it is my responsibility and duty to protect and defend what is mine. And if that means shooting someone and killing them, then so be it. I don't know what happened in detail that night, but if a person attacked me, it is my right to defend myself. I would shoot. If that seems "unfair" that my gun out-muscled that persons, fist, knife, or gun, that's just too bad.

It's interesting how you paint this broad picture of anyone who has a gun is a coward. The reality is that a vast majority of lawful gun owners have proven to be the most responsible people who HAVE guns. for those who approved for concealed weapons, they go to class and learn what the law says and allows. That doesn't mean there are not those who defy the law...but they are in the extreme minority. That's just factual.

And, LeRoy, it is also likely that if our 2nd ammendment right to keep and bear arms is revoked, the only ones (besides law enforcement) who will be armed are thugs who don't care about the law and only want to steal from or kill you and me. VERY SCARY!!!

Leroy Imagine some thugs walk up to my car.. try to pull me and my girlfriend out..maybe to kill me and rape and kill her.. I SHOOT THE SOBs............Tell me Leroy... which one is a wimp

Bad Bad Leroy Brown we know what happened to him. So huff and puff and blow the vine down. Anyone have a hot air balloon that needs filling.

I haven't kept up with this case as much as some posters, with that being said, it seems there is a double standard to the "stand your ground " law.

Trayvon or Zimmerman ? Seems the opinion for most is Trayvon was utilizing this law. Zimmerman is using this law as his defense.

The problem is, this law as I see it was enacted for people that "fear for their life"

How is it that Trayvon "feared for his life" just being followed and questioned about his presence at the complex?

Therefore I can't see where Trayvon was "fearing for his life" He could have easily continued on to his apartment without any further confrontation.

Zimmerman on the other hand, the pursuer(only watching and questioning as no physical contact was made by "Z"), was "physically attacked." (according to what most are reporting)

The "stand your ground" law seems to apply more in favor of Zimmerman than Trayvon.

Most civilians in Z's case would have at least been held for a day under these circumstances and it is my opinion that the police did error releasing him. (most likely due to politics in reference to his dad being a former judge)

But now politics is playing an even a bigger part by the media attention and outbursts of "racism" being called.

I personally don't think if Trayvon would have been "white" that it would have gotten this far.

Zimmerman would have been released, life would have just gone on for all involved. Which seems to be the norm on the political side of this story. Just because Trayvon was not white is the reason it has become such a national legal battle.

It seems to me that alot of people on this site really did not pay attention to the details of the case, or they where just not plan getting it and seeing only what they won't to see. A person is dead! If it was any of your famliy, you wold see the truth. Oh and to also set the record straight there whites in history have killed more blacks due your home work.

"just because Trayvon was not white....." Please do not insult our intelligence with such a remark. It is not simply about Trayvon, its about a continuing system of bullying the underclass by those in power and with the "right" connections (such as is the case with Zimmerman's parents). I'm glad YOU brought racism into the conversation, it is so enlightening to know that there is predjudice not only against people who by their dress, appear to be from the underclasses, but predjudice is heightened when color (other than white-as YOU pointed out) is brought to fan the flames of hatred. YOU should be proud of yourself for exposing your true feelings although in a feeble attempt to appear to be socially conscious.

@grmasissa -

Racial profiling has been illegal and ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court. (Interestingly enough the profiling law was not originally referring to blacks) Based on reports I have seen (granted they may not be accurate) Martin was racially profiled for being black inside the gated community. If he had been white, perhaps Zimmerman might have profiled him as "belonging" in that neighborhood. If Martin had been white, you are correct, this event might not have ever happened.

Trayvon had some options. One call the police not his girlfriend, or at least his parents. two-stop and have a civil conversaton with Zimmerman about what each were doing that night. Three, he could have went home and calld the police from there. He was supposdly running from Zimmerman? why turn around and confront him instead of running into the house and calling the police? And what would most people do if they were part of a neighborhood watch in an area that had numerous crimes committed in it? Find out what a stranger to the neighborhood was doing. Thats not a crime. Zimmerman did not racially profile Martin and there is nothing that proves he did. Oh, except for racists believing that because he is "white hispanic" he had to be filled wth hatred for black male.

This is where the lawyers will bring up the cell phone TM had in his hand. That will show he took NO EVASIVE ACTION TO PROTECT HIS SELF... Meanwhile GZ IS ON THE PHONE with the 911 operators, WHY ? Pursuing a suspicious looking person.. AFTER HOMES IN THAT SAME NEIGHBORHOOD HAD BEEN BURGLARISED. Listern to the 911 tapes..We dont NEED you to pursue.... OK........ OK means I AGREE. Next 911 caller states 2 men ARE FIGHTING IN MY YARD. Then she heard gunshots...... Now read the prosecutors statements in the indictment.. GZ made verbal; Threats..pointed a gun and then shot TM. do you see the problems she now faces.. SHE IGNORED THE 911 call reporting 2 men FIGHTING. BEFORE THE GUN SHOTS.... The prosecutor stated,,SHE DIDNT THINK GZ WOULD USE THE STYG LAW.............BUT if he did she would fight it... will some on tell me WTF this woman was THINKING. Now she has to PROVE GZ WAS NOT IN FEAR OF HIS LIFE IN HIS OWN MIND..... Thats the STYG law. What a person feels is what a person thinks..concerning their life being in danger.

nah, he can form a "stand your ground, but you better sit down and cover your azz" while he does his time in prison, for murdering an unarmed teenager.

Lol

bud, so now the victim is a gang banger? Nice how you come up with that crap.

$2000 grilles, sold weed, found with burgurly tool in his locker, used on twitter a hande "N word", suspended 3 times in 6 months.

Sould like a banger or banger in training.

Forgot the expensive tat's. Spent lots of money for a kid with no job

There's a guy who's being charged with shooting a teenager......who's the "gang banger" again? Don't be ridiculous....Zimmerman is the "gang banger" running around with a gun. Nobody should be allowed to roam the streets with a gun in their pocket, except police.

I have no sympathy for Zimmerman. I legally own a firearm for home defense and I would never use it unless I had absolutely no choice. It is clear to me he had a choice. He did patrols with it eventhough most people in neighborhood watch groups would advise against it. He should have given it serious "what if thoughts" like every gun owner should do. For example, what if i approach someone who is belligerent, or runs as i approach, what if someone approaches me ect. Life is too too precioius to take out without being absolutely certain that you have no choice.

Roger - Please provide some evidence for any of your statements. Cost of gold teeth? "Expensive tattoos?" How do you even know he didn't have a job? Or that he sold weed? Or anything?

Roger how do you know all of this info? May I suggest... there's not too many guys freely offering the use of thier orifices with the handle RogerRamjet and with the anger you're showing you probably prefer handcuffs ans a whip too. Just stating my opinion based on the rants you're spewing out.

Outside-your statments are disgusting and ridiculous.

No more disgusting and ridiculous then some of the things the zimmerman supporters have. If you're gonna call my posts out don't be shy call out all vile post being made. Or are you say going to I'm playing the race card. You see my wrong but totally missed al 30 or so wrongs before my post or are you suffering from selective proofreading?

Read the FIRST police reports.... Notice WITNESSES WERE QUESTIONED....Read the entire police report. GZ had wet clothes on his back.... GZ was TREATED BY SFD EMT........Remember the 13 yr old teen that STATED ON TV.. He described the clothes both TM and GZ we wearing..TM was on top of GZ beating him... AFTER the emt finished treating GZ ..he was handcuffed.. taken to SPD and Questioned and released. AT that point the only proof was GZ was innocent under Fla Stand Your Ground law.. BUT the investigtion was stll going on.....At the scene,,WITNESSES were questioned... That info is on file at SPD...What is in it..we dont know.... I know what info was used to indict GZ... Seems she found new witnesses that HEARD EVERY WORD,,SAW EVERY ACTION BY GZ.....4 months later ????????

a mom, whether it was right or wrong the evidence at the time supported Zimmerman, bloody nose injuries to the back of his head an eyewitness. He's been arrested so lets let all the facts come out before jumping to conclusions

leroy you are either a troll or one of those black panther "pussies" to use your word. I support the stand your ground for all Americans everywhere, if i am attacked I will stop the aggressor with all prejudice. I am going home. You are a dumba$$

Zimmerman mentored black teens.

Video shows the skull wound and parametics diagnoised the broken nose.

Not many normal teens

Suspended 3 times in 6 months

$2000 grilles

Several expensive tats, illegal under 18

Twitter handle was N Word

Found with burglar tool in locker and jewelry in locker

Yea just a normal teen, could have been Obama's son

The kid had no weapon and was smaller than Zimmerman. How was this "self defense"?

Cyber courage is awesome! "Stand your ground" has unlimited potential for all you courageous heros!

This was a l7 yr old kid, 7 inches taller than Zimmerman and he didn't know Zimmerman had a gun, remember it was concealed, had he pulled it sooner, maybe Martin would not have attacked him, but then Zimmerman would be charged for pulling the gun and Martin would be alive. But Zimmerman was attacked by this little "kid" and had a broken nose and a bloody head and it was Martins lawyer who said he weighed 140 lbs, we don't know how big this "kid" really was, the football picture was years ago and we've not seen a pic of this l7 yr old kid that was having trouble with drugs, stolen property and grafetti (possibly gang related) and kicked out of school for all 3, three times. Ask the parents why he was still allowed to roam the streets after all this, seems they didn't care much about their son until he got killed in this stupid tragedy that could have been prevented by Martin just saying that he's visiting his dad and he lives right up the street here and not thinking "I can whip this little honky and attacking him from behind. Yes, self defense.

wow now, in all your wistful cynical approach... maybe you should be charged by the prosecutors in this case for withholding evidence and testimony. You must have been there to be so knowledgeable about it, and to wait until now and bring all that to light would make you... oh nevermind, for a moment I was taking you seriously but your obviously just another idiotic racist. Zimmerman's "injuries" just weren't evident in the police tape, that most of us saw and you have absolutely no right whatsoever to speculate what Martin's father or mother thought or how they raised their son. You do, however, use the correct acronym for a name...vinegar suits you well

kdh, calling people a "prick" is against the rules.

And you don't want justice, you want vengence. There's a difference. An no, you didn't hear that audio. You probably read about it from the huffington post.

There's a witness that says Trayvon was doing the attacking. Zimmerman will walk.

Quit listening to Al, Jessie and MSNBC

gee, you have facts that nobody else has....you sound like someone who can't wait to start looting all the cracker stores when zimmerman is aquited

They have cracker stores???

Nice try Leroy, except the same video which you claim shows no injuries after being enhanced clearly shows injury stop with the lies

The Black Panthers are cowards!!Zimmerman has nothing to worry about

The New Black Muaslim Panthers are going to be buzy this November intimitating white voters to stay away from polls like in 2008

I hope the panthers are at my precinct when I go to vote.

Hog Lover. Me too. I will never let anyone intimidate me or my family like that. Regardless of race or any other factors, no one, no matter what your politics or any other affiliations should allow yourselves to be intimidated, by anyone. For any reason. Ever.

Think Trayvon was feeling a little intimidated that night? Some idiot with a gun, who isn't a cop, questioning why he was outside? Trayvon Martin was under no obligation to anwer to nutjob Zimmerman about anything.

No Sandie, Trayvon actually felt the need to approach Zimmerman and hit him.

That's why Zimmerman shot him.

Were you there?

I don't know about the panthers but the last time I went to vote there was a white guy there who tried to start trouble because he was mad he could not vote. (was not registered to do so) He sent the security toward my son and myself we flashed our ids, voted and walked out sporting our little "I voted" stickers, winked at him on the out for good measure. So you see crazy people come in all colors, and thanks to all the gun nuts I am able to keep protection at all times if I choose. Because I remember what it was like when I was a boy and we had to fight for our rights against so-called rightous and upstanding people who tried thier best to keep us down. The same type of people that's degrading this boy and his family, then yell hey!!! "Don't blame me for what my greatgrand parents did. You are being blamed and accused for your action here and now. You reap what you sow!

13% of the population is black

72% is white

i dont think the black panthers had anything to do with obama being elected.

we are at fault for this mistake. register to vote. we need a president that worries more with national issues rather than local NON issues.

Sandie....Ha! You're right on this one...he was under no obligation to answer any questions...look what civility, courtesy, communication and respect for self, others and elders may have prevented.

pb...Yea you're right!!!

By showing and being civil, courteous, able to communicate and show respect for self, others, the elderly and the youth of his community this guy could be home with his family right now! Instead of jobless facing financial ruin due to litigation and lawsuits and possibly bringing his dad and dad his friends under the microscope of litigation.

No "Rational" Brent, I was not there, or I would have tried to stop a murder from happening, Thing is, your a$$ wasn't on the scene either but, I wonder if you would have intervened.

So much for the HONOR CODE right Tyler.

I think he broke that law where if you ask someone a question and they respond with a suckerpunch, you are guilty of being a racist against the sucker puncher.

Ridiculous.

What little Roger is forgetting is that Zimmerman has no right to question ANYONE. Zimmerman was not a cop, he was a self-appointed cop wannabe. Being a crime watch "captain' or whatever title he gave himself, means nothing! Why couldn't Zimmerman fulfill his dream of being on the police force? Why did Zimmerman shoot to kill instead of just wounding a seventeen year old minor? Why has Zimmerman's story changed more than once? I thought I would ask you Ramjett because you seem to have all the (retarded) (quasi) answers. You make up more scenarios than the bad fiction author. Go sit down, hug your guns and have a beer. Everything will look better to you in the morning! Or not!!! For me, as well as the Zimmerdummies (thanks Leroy) a lot will be told when the autopsy report comes out.

Sandie, questioning someone is not a crime.

The prosecutor overcharged and there's a good chance the judge will throw the case out.

Of course, you have to read the article to understand what I'm talking about.

And the line between "shoot to kill" and "wound" is NOT anywhere in our legal system. A fire arm is lethal force, regardless of what Al Sharpton sends you in those mailers.

It's a crime if you make someone feel threatened!

I read the indictment last night.. No other charges were filed. according to the indictment. the prosecutor states witnesses have sworn to these facts.. GZ murdered TM with no premeditaion, Then states GZ made verbal threats. pointed a gun. and with no regard for human life shot and killed TM. This indicates people were present BEFORE,DURING and AFTER the shooting. What surprised legal experts is WHERE HAVE ALL THESE WITNESSES BEEN HIDING. And remember those TV INTERVIEWS from the 13 yr old witness, TMs girlfriends statements.. They dont match the indictment for 2nd degree... Manslaughter ? Yes. But now the prosecutor has to PROVE there was no altercation between GZ and TM. She is trying to over look the STYG law. She stated IF GZ tries to use that law ,,she will fight it. Its going to be a hootin tootin trial ..Thats for sure

Outside - is it a crime if someone physically attacks you, pounding you face and hitting your head against concrete.

"Rational",

Neither is NOT answering some fool running around playing cop. Too bad Zimmerman did not try to "question" a real man or woman that night. He just might have been in for a surprise.

nazarite
It's a crime to threaten and intimitate someone to the piont where they have to flee your presence then die from a gunshoot room after said persuer finally catches up to you. Yea Yea I know... I was'nt there but quess what, neither was anyone else who's posting on this thread. the difference is I'm not trying to cause the defamation of zimmermans' charactor and reputation and neither is the majority of people posting in support of trayvon. Zimmerman supporters... however is a different story. The vast majority of these petty people are posting terrible, vile and disrespectfull things against this kid so I pay them in kind.

Outside, so let me get this straight ,an overweight white Hispanic guy chases down a 17 year old in shape black kid, yeah that's believable.

zimmerman knows the real truth if he took a innocent life without probable cause and most of all GOD knows the truth inspite of what any smart comment that has been posted thinks or fell justice will be served because we reap what we sow. so maybe guilt will be to much for zimmerman to bare and he just take his own life and save some time and money

Mr Zimmeran is guilty of manslaughter. We all seem to agree on that. He isn't the only guilty parties here. The parents, misrepresented their son's age and appearance in his photos. Even after they were asked to give a photo of him at 17 years old they were dishonest and said the younger photos were him at 17. I am very bothered by peopled who get in front of a camera and thank and praise Jesus when they didn't give Jesus a chance to do anything. They took matters into their own hands by marching. Kids walked out of schools. God was not in it. Nor was Jesus even reveranced the greatest Holy week of the year, Easter, not even Sunday, Ressurection Day, they were marching. Will they ever let us see what Travon really looks like? He's around 6 feet tall or more. Do the right thing Mom and Dad.

You are either an idiot or own a gun shop! Is this why you all have guns... waiting for a race riot? I was in Oklahoma working during the California power crisis, I tried to explain what the cause was but all most of them got out of it was "I wonder when the race riots will start". After reading allot of these posts it seem the ghettos are full of "thugs" and "gang bangers". But I have a suspicion they come in all sizes, shapes and colors. ( thanks to some of the prior policies of the last 12 years) If you're itching for a fight go get them, have at it. Be a leader not a follower, but don't be suprise if they fight back. Remember they are all crooks and if it was'nt for the NRA they would be the only ones with guns. That's the argument at least. Wow... going up against gangbangers, drug dealers, drug runners, pimps, coyotes, human trafficers, disperate drug users, laid off workers, poor gun nuts defending thier hood, and immigrant business owners. All because they don't turn the same shade of pink when mad as you do! Shamefull.

RIGHT!! Gather your guns and batten down the hatches. Stock pile the bullets and vests. There will be mayhem in the streets if Mr. Zimmerman is acquitted. WRONG! That's a scenario you'd love to see, but it won't happen. The racial tension on these threads is palpable! It's heartbreaking to hear the racist, bigoted comments about a child who lost his life because he "looked suspicious". What criteria was used by Mr. Zimmerman to determine Mr. Martin was "suspicious'? In the real world, Black and Brown men in America KNOW that the color of their skin provokes PROFILING. Yes, the media plays a role in our opinions of our society and culture. They can fan the flames of racism; and, they can easily ease perceived tension by reporting truthful facts, not racially biased opinions.

Many of you have a narrow view of the media. I challenge those of you who refer to Black people as "Bush Bunnies" and monkey's to make a point to engage someone who does not share your skin complexion. You might be surprised to know they are HUMAN BEINGS.

I encourage all in this discussion to become seekers of knowledge, truth, and justice. Stop spouting the racist rhetorical comments. Engage in intelligent dialogue. For those who feel it's acceptable to kill unarmed people, imagine what your position would be if your child, grandchild, parent, spouse, etc. was killed just because their choice of clothing and the skin they were born in. Yes, karma is real. I just hope Mr. Zimmerman and his family can understand, at some point, how the Martin/Fulton families feel. They never asked for his head on a stick. They simply wanted their child's death to be investigated according to mandated police policies and procedures. I'm still curious why the Sanford PD ignored the lead detective's position in further investigation. The decision to ignore the detective's desire to file charges for manslaughter causes many to believe that "an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice EVERYWHERE". PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL ON THIS THREAD.