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Philip Sears/Reuters
Corinne Hershkovitch, legal representative of the family of Federico Gentili di Giuseppe, and officials stand next to the painting "Christ Carrying the Cross" by Italian artist Girolamo de' Romani after signing papers to return it to its rightful owners in Tallahassee, Florida.
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- A painting – nearly five centuries old and worth millions - that was taken by the Nazis in World War II has been returned to the heirs of its original Jewish owner by U.S. officials.
"Christ Carrying the Cross Dragged By A Rascal" by Italian artist Girolamo de' Romani was stolen during the occupation of France from Frederico Gentili di Giuseppe, an Italian Jew who had lived in Paris, Reuters reported.
He died of natural causes in 1940, a month before the Nazis invaded, and his children and grandchildren had already fled the country.
The painting was one of 70 items taken from his collection, Reuters said. It depicts Christ crowned in thorns, carrying a cross and dressed in a copper-colored silk robe, and dates back to circa 1538.
The former neighbor of a Dutch Holocaust survivor travels to the United States to hand-deliver a dish set the survivor's family left behind before they were sent to Auschwitz, a Nazi death camp. KING-TV's Natalie Swaby reports.
The collection was sold by the French Vichy government – allowed by the Nazis to run parts of France - in 1941 and Gentili's grandchildren filed suit in 1997 to get it back, according to the news service.
The painting had found its way to the Pinacoteca di Brera museum in Milan, Italy, which then loaned it to the Mary Brogan Museum of Art and Science in Tallahassee, Florida.
'Right a wrong'
Based on a tip from an employee of Christie's auction house in June 2011, Interpol investigators last summer alerted U.S. officials that the painting may have been stolen, Reuters reported.
Last September, U.S. Attorney Pamela Marsh ordered the Brogan museum to hold the painting instead of returning it to Italy, saying the federal government believed it rightfully belonged to the man's family, according to The Associated Press. It had been under the protection of the U.S. government since November.
"Seventy years is a very long time … But it shows that it is never too late to right a wrong,” U.S. Homeland Security Investigations Special Agent Susan McCormick told reporters Wednesday.
The piece is one of hundreds of thousands of works of art stolen from Jewish families throughout Europe by the Nazis. It is among nearly 2,500 works of art and antiquities that Homeland Security Investigations officials have repatriated to 23 countries since 2007.
Gentili's grandson, Lionel Salem, told reporters by telephone on Wednesday that the six heirs plan to sell the work, which he said was due to be auctioned at Christie's in New York on June 6. The painting has been insured for $2.5 million.
Former Ohio resident John Demjanjuk is found guilty for his involvement in thousands of deaths at a Nazi death camp during World War II.
"For a cake, it is relatively easy cutting it into six, not totally easy but quite easily," Salem said of the family's decision to sell. "But for a painting, you see, it is more difficult."
Marsh hailed the outcome of the investigations.
"This result happened only because people were courageous and willing to step up and do what they knew was right and good," she said, according to The Associated Press.
Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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As easy as it is to hate and despise what others have done through the course of history, it is also just as insanely preposterous to think that we, (yes YOU or even myself) would all would have done things differently had we only been there back then. You cannot simply judge the past's actions by today's moral compass standards. As a human society we have changed greatly, some for the better, some for the worse. Much more of today actions if judged by people of the past would be considered immoral and absolutely intolerable than, what how we are currently engaged in judging the past without the persons still around to defend their positions.
I think it is fair upto a point to try to undo historical wrongs. But yes we can't go crazy about it since individual lives and memories and ability to understand and comprehend without personal biases is so short, that inevitably we will create more trouble for present and future if we embark on fixing historical mistakes.
Having said that I would look forward to the day when the English Queen apologizes for their colonial past - particularly the famines and massacres that her regime inflicted on third world countries including India. We cant think how famine could be an artificial thing until you begin to read about bengal famine of 1770s.
Yeldarb27, genocide always has been wrong. Your historical relativism argument, as applied to the Nazis, is bunk.
I guess you never heard of the White Rose Society?
" the Pinacoteca di Brera museum in Milan, Italy, which then loaned it to the Mary Brogan Museum of Art and Science in Tallahassee"
Up yours Italy, this is what you get for loaning art to the uncultured, political correctness obsessed U.S.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Bullsh!t. He wasn't defending the nazis. He was attacking today's historical revisionist crowd who have the unmitigated gaul to say they would've done things differently back then had they been there to share their 'enlightened' perspective with everybody.
We weren't there in 1940 Vichy France so who the fukk are you to judge...
pj, if something was stolen from you, wouldn't you want it back?
Him yes, other people not so much.
EVILHOMER, in no way am I trying to defend the natzis. It just pisses me off when others try to judge other periods of time with what they consider to be today's moral standards. DON, has captured some of my thoughts pretty well. If we were to allow the folks of 100 or 400 years ago to judge some of the things that we do everyday, they would probably stone most of us to death for being so damn evil. You cannot go back that far and be any kind of judge for anything no matter how pious you think you are.
DARB: I read every word in your earlier post. Perhaps you would do me the courtesy of reading the entirety of my post at 2.2, instead of relying on the intentional mischaracterization of it by an obvious troll. Either that, or take a course on reading comprehension.
You said "[y]ou cannot simply judge the past's actions by today's moral compass standards [sic]." My response is now, as it was then, that this argument, as applied to the Nazis, is bunk. Genocide (and most of what the Nazis did was either in pursuit of that goal, or as a result of it) is wrong today, it was wrong in the 1930s and '40s, and it always has been wrong. Furthermore, while I have no way of guaranteeing this, I am pretty certain that it will be considered to be wrong far into the future. An argument of relativism simply does not apply.
Also, while you attack me for thinking that I am "pious," I would like to point out that I never used that word, nor did I base my argument on religion, nor must my conclusion necessarily flow from such an argument. My statement at 2.2 is based purely on logic, and as far as logic is concerned, you, my friend, have failed.
Dan: your comment at 2.5 is flawed for the same reasons Yeldarb's comments are. Additionally, if you are going to use profanity to attack me (which it seems you are compelled to do), you should at least have the stones to spell your curses properly. Frankly, your misspelled four-letter words make you look like a coward and a fool.
Also, please take the time to learn the difference between ellipses and question marks. Thanks.
I happen to think that its great that the property was returned. I do have a concern that the Dept of Homeland security is conducting these kinds of investigations, are they not supposed to be protecting the U.S. from terrorist and other bad guys. not running around checking for stolen art. Seems the FBI or some other domestic type agency should be investigating. Also, the word Kraut is akin to the N word and I take great offense to using that word as I had a german grandfather who spent 7 yrs as a POW compliments of the old USSR.
First of all, my name is Don, not Dan so there's goes your reading comprehension right off the bat. Or do you always confuse "o" with "a" and flunk your phonics lessons?
Oh I wouldn't worry about what I look like. That would be my problem, not yours. But 'thanks' for your concern anyway. lol...
Unfortunately I have to alter certain words because this forum will censor it otherwise and I wanted you read it. Just so there's no misunderstanding.
Now you can thank "Dan" for that. Or are you going to spew more bullsh!t?
Briefly, just so everyone knows: I am not siding with the Nazis, liking them, etc... I am merely making an unemotional factual observation strictly by what I have just read in this article. From what the article said, noone really stole this painting. 1) The original owner died of natural causes in 1940. He was not killed by the Nazis. 2) The rest of the family abandon the painting when they left. Yes, I know war is bad, the Nazis were bad news, etc... but that still makes this abandon property. If this family get's a zillion dollar painting back for that, why are there many other pieces of art in current museums or known private collection that belonged to actual people killed by the Nazis? Why aren't they given back to the known legal heirs this easily too? It's goofy. This painting was abandon property & those painting were stolen from murdered people.
EVILHOMER, you seem like an educated person, Ill give you that. But I just have to ask, whenever you spout off at others you come across as a completely insane ranting lunatic. So, my questions are:
1.Do you have some kind of anger management issue?
2.We have these discussions simply due to differing opinions. Without differing opinions, we would not have a reason for communication in this forum, we could just sit back and nod our heads in agreement. If everyone doesn't buy into your exact beliefs, does this necessarily make them all wrong? And sooo wrong that you find it absolutely necessary to correct them in manners that lessen your appearance of intelligence?
3. Have you ever considered counseling? Some of the brightest people I know are also smart enough to understand that they aren't perfect either.
4. I am not a doctor but I did stay at a Holiday Inn express a night or two. Have you ever considered a vacation away from newspapers, and computers?
Don: your response is pretty much what I had expected - no substance, and a continued use of abusive language, which you intentionally misspell in a cowardly attempt to hide from the moderators. I do notice that you appear to have taken my advice to look up the proper use of an ellipsis - good for you! If you keep working at it, I'm sure that, in time, you can become something more than an obvious, and tedious, internet troll.
DARB: like Don, you resort solely to artificially-contrived ad hominem attacks without addressing the substance of my argument. I'll take that as a concession of my point at 2.2. I would also like to point out that, given the obvious anger in your post at 2.13, you should look up the term "projection" in the DSM-IV. I would also suggest that you looker for fresher material for your insults than ten-year-old commercials.
Well you finally got the name right so milk & cookies for you. As to my deliberate misspelling of certain expletives, well I guess you'll just have to live with that now won't you.
Well I hope that made your day along with the milk & cookies. But that still doesn't change my point about your asinine horsesh!t up above.
Well if you keep working at it, you'll discover the 'ignore button' around here one day and instantly you won't be able to see Don anymore. Just try and use one of your arrogant, tiny brain cells and take the initiative and use it.
You do know what initiative is, don't you? Or do you lack thereof?
Don,
I've noticed that you tend to follow a particular m.o. in your posts. You're unable to make a substantive argument attacking my position, so you (1) pick at a minor in flaw (in my case, a typo two posts back); and (2) spew some hateful words, which you admit you purposefully misspell because you are afraid of the moderators. Is that all you've got?
Also, voting for your own posts is pretty tacky.
iamevilhomer-2657421, I seem to occupy a lot of your attention lately and I also knew you couldn't follow my advice about the ignore button. Your position was attacked in #2.5, you didn't like it, and so we now find out that you can't help yourself because you are easily pwned, manipulated and controlled by me.
The only thing left for you to do now is stalk my profile and follow me around because you are now obsessed with me.
Isn't that next, you obsessive little troll? ;)
Guys, (EvilHomer, Don, and Yeldarb), if an outsider may weigh in on this matter.....
I too find EvilHomer to be the product of some high dollar education facility but my bet is that he has wasted all that money by acting out his frustrations with/due to the rest of his life's bad situations. Also bet he was never picked for any team sports.
He seems so confused, wants all your attention and is actually begging for more and more of this personal interaction. My best guess is he has been the long standing victim of some very strong and perverse matronly or sexual abuse. From his rantings, I am also deducing that some of this abuse involved small to medium size farm animals. I would like to propose that we drop this war of wits since he is unarmed. His desire for more and more contact only points to one thing......even the goats tired of his BS.
Don: good job refraining from the profanity in your last post. You have gone from being a a repetitive, tedious, profane troll, to a repetitive, creepy (although not in comparison to Lynchmob), derivative troll. Well played.
Chmob: there is a lot wrong with your post. However, I will just write this: you put a lot of disturbing specificity into your comment at 2.18. It is clear that you spent a great deal of time going over (and over, and over) the details in your head before your wrote them down. Don't you think that attributing your own private shames and fantasies to another in an internet forum is kind of a dishonest way to go through life? Good luck bearing your burden.
Let me come at this as a more rational outsider. Lynchmob, your name is perfect and exemplifies your post. You have no justification for your attacks on evilhomer, but would have had ample reason to go after Don and Yeldarb for their overly unnecessary use of inflammatory comments. The 3 of you act like mocking children and perhaps that is exactly what you all are. It is clear that evilhomer's comments are far more calm, collected, and rational that the rest of you. It is unfortunate that you are unable to conduct yourselfs with dignity. If you are men of honor, you should self-reflect and be ashamed. More than likely, you will simply attack my post now. Pity, but go ahead and show me your true characters.
Doc, please forgive me and those that trespass against me! Where have you been all our lives? How have we ever lived without your all-knowing presence? Thank God you chose to come into our lives at this critical juncture and save us from ourselves.
Actually Doc, my entrance into the clusterfu*k above was only meant to add some levity to the entire situation.....Obviously, I failed, or at least I did with you. It appears to me that Yeldarb made a super point talking about the inability judge history's ethics and actions using today's standards and principles, and morals. YOU CANNOT DO SO WITH ANY ACCURACY. Then he was attacked by "EVILHOMER" as if he was defending NATZI actions, Don, then came into to try to get Homer to better understand what Yeldarb had posted, which angered EVILHOMO into a frenzy of insults. Agree with whichever one of them stated EVILHOMER has an anger management problem.
Yeldarb, wow, you make so many good points, I just don't know how to thank you for setting us all straight. Please keep up the good work Your friend for life....DOC.
Don and Lynch, I agree with Yeldarb, that doggone Doc is a troublemaker, lets all get together at my place down by the lake for some tea and crumpets, we can shoot some pheasant down by the creek bed and I'll have the little Miss cook it up for us, Ales for all. Your pal, Homer.
Yeldarb, are you actually reading the same comments as I am regarding Don and Lynchmob? Evilhomer is far more civil. The only other conclusion that I can come up with is that you are actually all three people posting under different names. The more I review your writing style, the more likely I think this may be the case - especially your last 3 posts. If that is so, then this conversation is useless and, for my purposes, has reached its end.
Ok so let me get this right, a painting that was stolen 70 years ago finds its way into an Italian museum, where it is cared for and put on display, later on the decedents of the original owner claim for it back and receive it, only to then announce that they plan to sell it again? Couldn’t this all have been settled by the Museum just paying off the decedents? Wouldn’t that have been easier? Well either way I do hope that they sell it to another museum after all art work of that age does need a lot of work to keep it preserved
DocAeth: I appreciate your comments, and respect your apparent decision to get out of this foolish thread before you waste too much time on it. After this post, I think that I follow your lead.
DARB: in response to your renewed assertion at 2.21 that I have anger management problems, I think that your characterization is willfully disingenuous. In fact, I would like to point to your comment at 2.6 where you admit that you made your original post because "[i]t just pisses [you] off when others try to judge other periods of time with what they consider to be today's moral standards." You can try to attribute your mental issues to me all you want, but I think that it's clear to anyone who has read this thread that you are projecting.
Also, calling me "EVILHOMO" at 2.21? Really? Are you in middle school?
Finally, Losmuertos: I, too, hope that the painting ends up in a museum. Thank you for having the class to stay on topic.
iamevilhomer-2657421
Well I really had to stay on topic as I was new to the conversation, also I am curious to see if this couldn’t have just been settled between the Italian museum and the descendants, but that’s just me.
As for this whole historical relativism argument I think both sides have a point, I think the best way I can put my view is that whilst we can judge the acts by our own moral compass, judging the people is kind of unfair, as collective morality has A changed over time and B can be often overruled by the madness of some events too.
Doc, DON, Lynch and Evil, this is just me...YELDARB. My last 3 posts were simply meant to spell out that now everyone was speaking for everyone else. Seriously, I have no desire to smear anyone. There were just 3 people involved in a very distinct difference of opinions on a subject of judging history. I am just me. I have seen many posts from Lynchmob over the years, He is quite the comedian. Whoever Don is, he is not me either. He is his own person too. I do agree with many of his comments. My last three posts were put into this post just to agree with just how stupid and off subject it was getting. Sorry if you didn't get that. My humor does step on toes but does anyone on here really care about what the other person thinks about them? I hope not. Are we all like George Costanza on Seinfeld or Biff in Death of a Salesman? We are strangers but even as strangers we should respect each others opinions or at least their right to have them. You can say my mama is a whore, I dont care. I recognize that you have no impact on my life. Gee I hope everyone sees that too. If this little internet communication is your entire life/has a major impact on it or how you live, you have bigger problems than I can even begin to think about or respond to on this forum.
Seriously, forgive me and my offenses, you will feel better. God Bless, each one of you but also continue to recognize that it is not necessary to demean the other just because you do not agree with them. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. It does not matter to anyone else but you. Peace.
Gee, I was gonna refrain from answering but it looks like Lynchmob-2711882 has a point.
As far a "creepy" goes, can you say PROJECTION? lol...
Let's hope the authorities and the ASPCA pad cell you. You're a threat to the wildlife out there.
more lol...
Whatsa matter, iamevilhomo-2657421?
Cat got your tongue? Or have you got the cat's tongue instead?
LOL...
Good to see that one of you got my message. Geesh, I bet Evil is real fun at company picnics. Lighten up people, that is the real message. Save your true anger for things that matter and you can actually affect the outcome on. "Tootles"....
1 deleted, Joe-3710468 with a two-word race extrapolation. You're suspended for a week for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
"The piece is one of hundreds of thousands of works of art stolen from Jewish families throughout Europe by the Nazis." Who knew so many Jewish families had the funds back then to own so much artwork? Wow! Those folks really supported the arts. Of all of my family, close or extended, I know of none owning any fine art. It's too bad the family plans on selling it, and they just got it back. They should each keep it in their home for 2 months of the year instead, and enjoy it.
That's why the jews were targeted and hated, they (no differently than now) were in control of all the money and power. It is actually no surprise they had all the expensive stuff since they had all the money. Unfortunately they didint learn from their past and continue the same practices that caused their attempted genocide.
pieces like this belong in museums- not in someones dining room or in a druglords penthouse to never be seen again. nazi bad and all that- thye should get money since that is what they want not the painting
Why would a Jewish family want to keep a painting of Christ carrying the cross? For the life of me I can't figure out why their ancestors would have wanted to buy it in the first place...
But this is really about "the money". It's never been about anything else.... They're going to split it six ways.... nice... Don't suppose they'd be giving any to the people who made their getting it back possible..... Nah!
The lawyers who filed the suit will get a chunk, so less for the six. THere have been a few paintings returned lately, all sold. At least Lauder who bought the Klimt, put it in a museum.
It does not matter what religion you are if you love art, that is a beautiful painting and could have been bought as an investment. Nice to see that anti-semitism is still alive and well. Not.
If you had any intelligence you would have known.
@trudat6445
Really? All of the money and the power, just like today. Nice to know stupidity is alive and well in the 21st century.
truda, thanks for being another brilliant example of wasted human potential. People like you are hardly worth replying to, but I'll feel better for doing it.
"they" had "all" the "expensive stuff"
in control of "all" the money and power
Got some historical or contemporary research to back up your slime? Really. Bring it on.
Just because there are Jews who are wealthy or who have positions of power, slime like you pronounce that it's ALL Jews in ALL control of EVERYTHING. Sweeping generalizations, completely inaccurate, made by brainless people to thinly veil their hatred, jealousy, and feelings of inferiority.
"the same practices that caused their attempted genocide" So if I come find you because I don't like what you're saying or what you think, and I murder you, will it be your fault? Will you have caused your murder?
No firefly, you read it as ALL jews, but when you have a culture of people that only care about themselves, seclude themselves, and cry anti-semetism about anything that doesnt shine them in a positive light, then sometimes it is easy to generalize.
Jews werent and havent always been perscuted through-out history because they were friendly and tolerant. Even now the jews are doing exactly what they did in germany, they still control the banks, they control the media (which is ironic because you collapsed my comment because it doesnt fit the victim card rhetoric), they control the political offices.
My point was that jews have never held themselves accountable for any of their persecution in the past, its an example of not getting the old saying, 'maybe it isnt everyone else, maybe its you'.
But keep putting up your holocaust memorials everywhere and trying to make people feel bad for you because some lunatic who was good at speaking didnt like you.
If anyone sounds like they've got the victim rhetoric down, it's you trudat6445. Can't catch a break hunh? Aren't there opportunities for us all to succeed in this country?
You're not exactly modeling friendliness and tolerance with such bigoted statements.
Yea you got me dude, totally playing the victim here by talking about jews always playing the anti-semetic card and never EVER having taken any accountability for what their chosen asses have done. Yep good job with that argument, must have taken you along time to come up with it the idea to turn that around with BS.
Some people dont like the truth, i guess you happen to be one of them.
Why would a Christian family want to keep a sculpture of a Greek goddess? For the life of me I can't figure out why their ancestors would have wanted to buy it in the first place...
Severed Head- Christians keep greek goddesses as art because it's pretty. There's nothing pretty about a beaten and broken man walking to his execution. Why would anyone want to own soemthing like that unless it held deeper meaning for them? Unless they were just into torture porn.
Xina: That is ridiculous. I'm atheist and I have a pieta (dying Christ in Mary's arms) in my home because it was a gift. Catholics wear crusifixes around their necks (again, an image of a dying man being tortured to death). Perhaps, as crazy as this theory may sound...... he had the art because it was valuable and a family heirloom.
You're a funny little self-righteous beotch, there kiddo!
We used to call little Mollies like you "goody-two-shoes", back in the 1950s.
You got air, for brains, you air-head.
People like you "theorize" with all of the "perhaps" nonsense, while ignoring the facts.
Stupid self-righteous roach.
Why would any jewish family want to keep a picture of Christ and a cross mounted on their walls ?????? For real???
Why do any hunters and killers always mount trophy heads on their walls.
Uh, no trudalunatic. First, the vast majority of people reading your meaningless vitriol are collapsing your comments as a way of telling you that, well, you're spewing meaningless vitriol. Wait--didn't you just make that point--'maybe it isn't everyone else, maybe it's you'????
You know, it's one thing if someone wants to try arguing facts and might even THINK they have some information or data that is real. You offer nothing but your black sludge. You are full of nothing but hate and hot air, a combination that stinks. We can all smell your stink. I hope you're having a good time because I know you feel like pure crap most of the time. Does it make you feel better to ignorantly trash whole generations of people you know nothing about?
By the way, you haven't answered my question: if I come and murder you because I don't like you or what you say, would you have caused your own murder? Do you 'hold yourself accountable' for anything?
"Yea you got me dude, totally playing the victim here by talking about jews always playing the anti-semetic card and never EVER having taken any accountability for what their chosen asses have done."
So what have they done? Made more money than you? Didn't live on your block? Beat up your dog?
They are entitled to live how they feel and according to their believes, just as you are. Do they have a right to come and murder you of what your "chosen ass has done".
I hate to break it to you but you are not spreading "the truth" but simply hate of others that are not like you.
Nataliya S, you're suspended for a week for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
trudat6445, avoid smearing all followers of a religion. You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
It seems strsnge to me that a jewish family would have such a painting of jesus christ when according to their scripure they dont worship him as the messiah.
I was wondering the same thing. Why would a Jewish family have a painting of Jesus?
Perhaps they were what I have heard called completed, of Jewish background, but accepting Jesus as Messiah.
Rita - that's doubtful. Tom's probably right they saw it as an investment.
Perhaps it's not that vexing after all.... maybe it's a thing called "appreciation".
It's called ART. It seems strange to me that so many people are incapable of understanding the concept of appreciating fine art.
None of my clocks are melted, nor do any of my elephants have giraffe like legs, but I still enjoy and collect Dali.
It doesn't matter why they had it, that was there right to have it just like you and I. I will never ever understand what some have against the Jewish people.
You don't have to subscribe to the religion to appreciate the work of art.
Xbonz: I agree with you. But they would not understand Dali anyway. Look at their posting and think, do they have the capacity to appreciate art? Nah, I don't think so. But this forum is cheaper than a psychologist, so they can spew their frustrations without being charged (yet).
Xbonz- Yes it is art, and other cultures can certainly appreciate art not related to their own.
But it is very odd, in my opinion, that a Jewish family would collect such an overtly religous piece of work. Traditionally, Jews do not view Jesus in a very positive light. They not only consider him to be a false messiah, but they consider him to be the most damaging of the false messiahs having led so many people away from biblical Judiasm.
Now, of course it's possible that while the family was Jewish, they were not devout or very religous. I know many "Jews" who are really atheists but they still self identify as Jewish because of the strong cultural traditions. So it's possible that they bought it because they loved it. It's just an odd choice because not only is the subject matter so distinctly Christian, it's also full of pain and suffering and not evocative of a pleasant emotional response to a non-believer. Also given the historical association between depictions of Christ's passion and anti-semitism, it's weird that Jews would want to have something so strongly associated with antisemitic passion plays etc.
It's like finding out that Obama has a priceless portrait of Robert E Lee, an original confederate flag and a collection of Confederate artifacts. Sure there are people who collect that sort of thing, mostly southerners and there is a good amount of historical value to it etc.... but it's unexpected for an African American family to prize the memorabilia of people who wish to oppress them, no matter how well made or artistic.
It's not anti sematic to question why someone who refuses to have anything to do with say, Christmas, would be interested in a picture of the guest of honor of such a holiday. I know, I know, art is art. However, most people do collect things either because of their personal connection to the items, or the money they believe it will bring them in collecting it. I've seen art I can appreciate, but doesn't mean that I want to own it. I can appreciate the talent of a country western band, but I wouldn't willingly listen to it. lol So yeah, I found it a bit curious. Doesn't mean I hate Jewish people.
I was disappointed though that it's return was not to keep a family heirloom, but to sell it as soon as possible. Hopefully a museum will be able to buy it.
You seem to be VERY uneducated about Judaism and the place of Jesus in the religion. You should read a little bit about Judaism before you make untrue statements like these. You have no clue what you're talking about.
First off, I love how you use quotation marks around the word "Jews". That's quite the implication of how you feel about them. Do your Jewish "friends" know how you feel? Also, non-religious Jews identify as Jewish because it's a race, not just a religion. Again, educating yourself a bit makes you sound less ignorant, although I don't know what would make you sound less anti-Semitic... Of course, you're in good company on this forum. Most of the crap here is completely anti-Semitic, especially from people who claim NOT to be anti-Semitic. It's disgusting, really.
Art is art.... connoiseurs of art choose a piece less for its subject matter than its historical and social significance...... and I might note, Jesus WAS a Jew.
As someone who is Jewish, I have no idea why this man owned this painting. It seems a very odd choice, but the article doesn't seem to indicate how he got it and that context can mean a lot. He or one of his ancestors may have received it as a gift from someone and may have valued it for something besides its religious context. It's possible they owned it as an investment, but unless someone can find out more about its past, we cannot know di Giuseppe's motivation and it is unfair to speculate.
Yeldar, I agree that we, as a society, are wiser and more compassionate, in many ways, than we were 70 years ago. However, as a Jew, I grew up learning about the Holocaust. It was a huge part of my upbringing. There was ZERO excuse for the Holocaust and Adolph Hitler's intentions and actions. To even suggest that we shouldnt judge him or his allies, is sickening, to me and Jews everywhere. It can never be watered down or minimized. Otherwise, it will be destined to happen again.
Yes, there are things going on, in today's society that I find intolerable and immoral. But, nobody in the US is being held in concentration camps and being gassed. The Holocaust was one of the worst atrocities every perpetrated against a group of people. There is no comparison, and there is ZERO justification.
I would like to point out that anti-semitism is essentially a western concept. Jews have been persecuted for centuries by Europeans including Spain, Italy, France and, yes, the Catholic Church. Why? Because they chose to save Barabas over Jesus. The Holocaust is a collective western guilt. And, we wonder why the Chinese and Indians don't share it. Too bad we try to pin it on the Muslims, the Arabs and the Palestinians.
I'm not defending Hitler's actions, not at all, but before you totally vilify him for the atrocities, you might want to consider the fact that it was the United States Government that turned back the SS St. Louis with THOUSANDS of Jews aboard who Hitler had sent here to get rid of them humanely, and OUR government sent the ship back to Hamburg, and those Jews to their ultimate fate.
Beth - but we did do it here. In the United States. We committed genocide against the Native Americans. And later put the Japanese in concentration camps. OK so we didn't gas them, but many did die in the deplorable conditions there. I don't think that anyone excuses what the Nazis did, (well except maybe skinheads and the like, but I would take them hating me as a complement) I think the point was that had we been there, living in Germany, there's no telling who among us (non-Jews that is) would have been swept up in the hysteria and become a Nazi ourselves. It's easy in hindsight being separated by decades and geography to say that we would never do that to another person. But group psychology and the desire to preserve your own survival are powerful motivators that could cause otherwise sane, compassionate people to act in ways that we could never comprehend. Obviously there were those that bucked the peer pressure of the times and tried to do something to help those being targeted, but as a percentage of the population, they were few and far between. I can't believe that there was something in German DNA that made them more suseptible to becoming, crazed, bigoted mass murderers. This is why as a society we have to remain conscious of hate and bigotry and oppose it whenever it is found. We can never become complacent and allow a group to become the scapegoat of all our frustrations and disappointments and fears. Illegals, the Rich, Muslims, Blacks, Jews, Republicans, Christians, Socialists, etc. All are groups that I've seen hate and depricating comments made about in just the last week. If it could happen then, in Nazi Germany, it can happen now, here.
Beth, are you familiar with the concentration camp on foreign soil called Guantanamo Bay? They don't gas the prison- excuse me, "detainees," but they torture them and hold them for years in years in cages without trial.
The only difference is that these guys weren't minding their business in Asia.
Beth, I do agree with you in many respects. However, to say there is "no comparison" is going a bit far for me. There have many many holocausts in the history of the world and nobody "owns" the word. Owning words is facist in itself.
Not one of you responding to Beth's comment seem to have an actual grasp of what the Holocaust truly was. THERE IS NO COMPARISON IN MODERN HISTORY. PERIOD. After a decade of passing discriminatory laws meant to subjugate and destroy certain groups of people (Jews, Communists, political dissidents, etc), meanwhile holding false "trials", imprisoning and torturing those who didn't obey the laws, the National Socialist Party started a war. They didn't start it to protect an ally, to uphold a treaty or to protect themselves, they did it to conquer land to be able to provide for the new Aryan race of "pure" Germans. Once they invaded these countries, the Nazis began rounding up all of the "sub-humans" in ghettos (Jews, Communists, Polish Nationals, gypsies, the handicapped, homosexuals, Catholic priests and thousands of others). When they discovered that it would take too much time to make all of these "undesirables" dig their own graves and shoot them, they started building extermination facilities. In Auschwitz alone, over 3 million men, women and children were gassed and their bodies cremated. The Nazis end goal was to kill of every single one of these people. Remember that the Nazis weren't just a random group of men, they were the German government. Their entire goal was extermination. By the time the war ended, the death toll from ONLY the extermination camps was 11 million people, over half of them Jews (6 million). Millions more were killed in the years before the extermination camps were built. Can you all comprehend this? I don't mean that in a snarky way, because it is truly difficult to comprehend the full scope of the Holocaust.
As to those saying that the American government did this Native Americans and that we should remember that Americans turned away the SS St. Louis and that Guantanamo Bay is equivalent to a German concentration camp: 1) what Americans did to Native Americans was NOT right in any way. However, it doesn't even compare to the destruction the Nazis wrought, not to mention that the politics behind it were significantly different. The government was attempting to settle land, but they did not introduce and implement a state-sponsored killing machine to wipe the US clean of the natives. 2) The "story" about the SS St. Louis is completely incorrect. The St. Louis sailed to and was turned away from Cuba, not the US. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html 3) Guantanamo Bay pales in comparison to the Nazi concentration camps. I'm not saying the prisoners at Guantanamo are staying at the Hilton, but you truly can't make a believable comparison between the two, either in physicality, nor in political intention.
All one has to do to understand any of this is to do some reading. The Third Reich, The Nuremberg Trials and Mein Kampf are good starters. There is so much more than any of you seem to grasp.
The african holocaust was a hundred times worse than the european holocaust. The european holocaust was europeans killing europeans. If hitler killed white people who converted to the jewish faith that should be something that germany and all other europeans countries that had dealings with that should adress. The european jew is not the ancient Hebrew of Palestine there fore they have know business their in the first place. why dont you europeans jews never talk about how yougot filthy rich off the african slave trade that european jews dominated and made all their riches off. From every country in europe to every island in the carribean it was white jews who are not the ancient Hebrews of what you all call that new saying the middle east. So when some one has the courage to tell you caucasian jews the thruth you call them antisemites when you white jews are not even semites and have never had any connection to the holy land in a sense as your ancesters were their 3000 years ago which is a lie. I know there were Hebrews their in ancient but is was not the european jew. The white european jew is not the original jew or Ancient Hebrew. Today israel is stolen Palestine may Allah s.w.t give them the strength to recover their land back against the enemy who made theirselves a enemy by stealing the true semites land.So does this mean the original native people of America can have their land back? Late nights when i see shows of some man interviewing russian jew or any european jew in europe and raising money to send them to Palestine a place were they have no roots at all is flat out insane. O Allah S.w.t destroy the enemies within Islam and the enemies without. I say to you Iran may Allah s.w.t protect you. If you are not seeking nucklear weapons you are a fool because thr whole world has seen what the liers and killers have did to Libya. Now my black brothers and sisters and my arab and berber brothers are being slaughtered by these socalled western back racist arabs who think they are white because of their lighter skin tone. Its not over we will fight you inslavers financially and physically to the last breath and bring the fight to your door steps with the help of Allah s.w.t.
Qassim: yet another uneducated, violence preaching anti-Semite who is completely ignorant of history.
Thanks for the laugh, though!
Qassim, you should read genetic studies that show close links between Jews, Palestinians, and other groups in the middle east. Science proves they are all related. While some strains of European genetics - most notably Northern Italian - do contribute somewhat, studies show most contribution from middle-eastern origin. Iranian Jews lack any European strains, but have common strains with European Jews dating back to about 2500 years ago, leaving them to be descendants of Jews that remained in ancient Persia, yet still connecting with with other Jews. I could go on, but I'm unsure if things like "scientifically supported evidence" matter to you.
hangon1minute,,the article says the original owner was an Italian Jewish person living in France,,,,The Italian part would be roman catholic.
My comment wasn't meant to be condesending or antisimitic, but merely an observation.
are you really that ignorant?
omega1,
There have been Italian Jews since ancient Roman times. They are not Catholic. "Italian" is a nationality which does NOT signify a religion, just as "American" does not signify a religion. Judaism, Protestantism, Buddhism and Catholicism are religions. There are synagogues that have existed in Italy since the ancient times of Augustus. At times oppressed by the ruler/emperor of the particular era, these Jewish Romans were citizens who participated in all aspects of society and government. Due to Hitler, the Italian Jewish population is now greatly decreased. However, there are still thousands of Jews in Italy, full Italian citizens, living in many cities, and you can still visit the ancient synagogues in the Jewish sections of these cities, including Rome.
The Jewish settlements in Rome are the oldest in Europe and one of the oldest continuous Jewish settlements in the world dating back to 161BC. Being Italian doesn't make you not Jewish.
There are many Italian Jews ... far fewer than the forced conversions that took place during the Inquisitions.
Being Italian does not make you Catholic, either.
Hangon1minute,
Im just hypothesizing, but it may be because they were Italian Jews. Italy was and is a predominantly Catholic country; and, to the best of my knowledge and experience, there has always been a mutual respect and admiration between Jews and Catholics. Also, even though Jews dont believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, we do believe that he was a prophet of God, just like Abraham and Moses.
Tom, Im not sure how to take your post. If you are insinuating that Jews only care about money, that is a very old and tired stereotype; and I find it a wee bit offensive.
And yes, I grew up in a town in New Jersey, where most of my friends were Catholic. I always enjoyed going to midnight mass with my Catholic friends and they enjoyed coming to my house and lighting the Chanukah candles. Its called respect and tolerance. Just because I dont believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah; doesnt mean I don't respect his role as a prophet or what he means to Christians.
Tom is probably just a Progressive who feels he is better than anyone else and therefore can be judgemental.
Beth - Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was a prophet like Abraham and Moses. Traditionally Jews have seen Jesus as one of the false Messiahs. Because he was so consequential, he is usually seen as the most damaging of those false messiahs. Any divergence from the tenets of Biblical Judaism espoused by Jesus would disqualify him from being considered a prophet in Judaism. This was the view adopted by Jesus' contemporaries, as according to rabbinical tradition as stated in the Talmud "when Malachi died the Prophecy departed from Israel." As Malachi lived centuries before Jesus it is clear that the rabbis of Talmudic times did not view Jesus as a divinely inspired prophet.
@Xina
you are wrong. jews believe that jesus was a prophet.
Why is that we always fall on the dichotomy of confusing faith with religion? Jesus was ostracized by the jewish ruling class at the time because he signified the loss of their privileges under his teachings. He was not demonized by the people, but by the ruling class and the merchants. Remember that the people from judea was waiting for a fighting warrior, who would liberate them from the Romans, and Jesus message of non-aggression was far away from the battle cry they were expecting. Jesus didn't want to create a church, his apostles did 30 years after his death. Jesus wanted to change the corruption in the jewish religion at the time. But then the 'new' religion (christianity) found solace in blaming the jews for its leader's demise. After all, people, those who hate the jews forget that their beloved jesus was also a jew.
razuhmuhtazz - I am not wrong. Some Jews might believe this, but traditionally Jews view Jesus as an ordinary man and preacher or Rabbi. I have never heard a Rabbi preach about Jesus or repeat anything that Jesus said as authoritative. In fact, according the Jewish tradition the era of prophecy ended with Malachi who died well before Jesus.
In truth Jesus is considered to be a false prophet by the majority of Jews. Judaism teaches absolutely nothing about Jesus. He is not even mentioned in the Talmud.
Look you can respect the teachings of Jesus and respect Christians without claiming things that your religion doesn't teach. I respect Muslims and find many of their teachings very beautiful, but that doesn't mean I have to accept Mohammed as a prophet.
The following is a list of the Jewish Prophets from Judaism 101(Note that Jesus is not on it):
Abraham Gen 11:26 - 25:10
Isaac Gen 21:1 - 35:29
Jacob Gen 25:21 - 49:33
Moses Ex. 2:1 - Deut. 34:5
Aaron Ex. 4:14 - Num. 33:39
Joshua Ex. 17:9 - 14, 24:13, 32:17 - 18, 33:11; Num. 11:28 - 29, 13:4 - 14:38; 27:18 - 27:23, Deut. 1:38, 3:28, 31:3, 31:7 -Joshua 24:29
Pinchas Ex. 6:25; Num. 25:7-25:11; Num. 31:6; Josh. 22:13 - Josh. 24:33; Judges 20:28
Elkanah I Samuel 1:1 - 2:20
Eli I Samuel 1:9 - 4:18
Samuel I Samuel 1:1 - I Samuel 25:1
Gad I Sam 22:5; II Sam 24:11-19; I Chron 21:9-21:19, 29:29
Nathan II Sam 7:2 - 17; 12:1 - 25.
David I Sam 16:1 - I Kings 2:11
Solomon II Sam 12:24; 1 Kings 1:10 - 11:43
Iddo II Chron 9:29, 12:15, 13:22
Michaiah son of Imlah I Kings 22:8-28; II Chron 18:7-27
Obadiah I Kings 18; Obadiah
Ahiyah the Shilonite I Kings 11:29-30; 12:15; 14:2-18; 15:29
Jehu son of Hanani I Kings 16:1 - 7; II Chron 19:2; 20:34
Azariah son of Oded II Chron 15
Jahaziel the Levite II Chron 20:14
Eliezer son of Dodavahu II Chron 20:37
Hosea Hosea
Amos Amos
Micah the Morashtite Micah
Amoz (the father of Isaiah)
Elijah I Kings 17:1 - 21:29; II Kings 1:10-2:15, 9:36-37, 10:10, 10:17
Elisha I Kings 19:16-19; II Kings 2:1-13:21
Jonah ben Amittai Jonah
Isaiah Isaiah
Joel Joel
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Uriah Jeremiah 26:20-23
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Shemaiah I Kings 12:22-24; II Chron 11:2-4, 12:5-15
Barukh Jeremiah 32, 36, 43, 45
Neriah (father of Barukh)
Seraiah Jeremiah 51:61-64
Mehseiah (father of Neriah)
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Mordecai Bilshan Esther
Oded (father of Azariah)
Hanani (father of Jehu)
Female Prophets
Sarah Gen 11:29 - 23:20
Miriam Ex. 15:20-21; Num. 12:1-12:15, 20:1
Deborah Judges 4:1 - 5:31
Hannah I Sam 1:1 - 2:21
Abigail I Sam 25:1 - 25:42
Huldah II Kings 22:14-20
Esther Esther
Tom-631064, don't smear all followers of a religion. You're suspended for a week for violating #5 - and #1 - of the Code of Honor.
Straight money grab! "the six heirs plan to sell the work" They didn't want the painting which had been in their family for years...they just wanted the millions! Shame! This painting was in a museum. Now it will be actioned at Sothebys and more than likely end up in a private collection never to be seen again!
You don't know the details of the family. It could well be that one or more of them want to keep it, but don't have the money to buy the other heirs interest. In many countries, a person has the right to sell their interest in something whether another interest owner likes it or not, so the only solution if the other interest owners can't buy out the seller is for everyone to sell.
I'm NOT impressed! All the heirs wanted was the MONEY and not to try and preserve a piece of art for their family and many future descendents! At least when the museum had it thousands of people could see and enjoy this great piece. Now the family gets control and immediately SELLS IT ... ultimately it will go to a private collector and the world will never see this great painting again! Like I said ... NOT impressed with the family... their father/grandfather/great-grandfather - Frederico Gentili di Giuseppe - is turning in his grave!
A museum will probably end up with it.
And if you got the painting, you would hang it over your fireplace?
you're a fool.
I would sell it in a heart beat.
@DAH1028
Maybe Mr. Gentili di Giuseppe, the Jew, is NOT "turning in his grave". I seriously doubt that an Italian Jew living in Paris, with a whole house-load of Christian art was a real connoisseur of that kind of art: so, if anything, he--the Jewish man, in Jewish Heaven--is dancing on broken glass and saying Mazel Tov.
(And, of course, the man's descendants are saying, "Enough with this Christian art, already!", as they say Todah Rabah, while shaking the hands of that cadre of lawyers who represented them.)
I have no problem with the family at all - it is their property, and they get to choose what they do with it. Selling it at auction, so they can realize some value (pay recovery costs) and a museum can purchase it, is an entirely happy disposition of the item.
It will be a long, long time before Italian museums are eager to lend to US museums again. Unless they can nail down the provenance, they will know that any item could be subject to seizure. Many old pieces of fine art, jewelry, coins, etc. have at least one theft or questionable transfer in their long background. And as the article says, it is never too late to right a wrong (even if the current owners did nothing illegal and are completely unaware of past misdeeds with the piece.) The same is true with items of archaeological and paleontological interest.
This may be an idea for a new branch of plaintiff-attorney law. Scour the museums for items that can be seen as wrongfully-acquired somewhere in the past.
It costs a fortune to keep a work of art that old. Better to sell it to the 1% who continue to gain wealth. They can afford to treat it properly.
You dont think these heirs are in the 1%?
No, I don't.
their family lost everything during the war. Why would they suddenly want to split it 6 ways?
contrary to your colossally bigotted remarks, not all Jews are wealthy.
I don't think he is a bigot but rather just a Progressive who can't understand anyone who doesn't view the world as they do.
Just so all of you know, Jesus was a Jew.
I'm very happy that the art is returning to its owners. Yes, thousands upon thousands of art works were looted during WWII. Many have never been found; some may be walled up in homes, hidden in underground vaults, or just anonymously hanging in someones livingroom. Who knows? The point of the matter is that pieces will crop up from time to time. Some will be legitimately owned, others--not so much; however, when the previous owner was murdered, the work rightfully belongs to the heirs.
For those of you who say you have no "art" in your homes, why not? It's available in galleries at reasonable prices. Many pieces are kitsch, but many are very fine works. Take a practiced eye (of a friend or advisor) with you, and collect a piece a year. It will be worth the investment. Fine art need not be antiquated for it to be good. Figure out what you like, and seek out artists who create it. It's fun and beautiful and thought provoking. Many local colleges have art history and appreciation classes that one can take for a small fee. Take advantage of the opportunity. It would be worth it.
Absolutely well said!
@zapper 45701
I must correct you. Go back and read the article a second time. It says that the man died of natural causes. He was not murdered.
Here, in the USA, if a person dies without a "will", he dies "intestate". And, his estate is turned over to probate court, for dispersal among those heirs who step up to make a claim. There is a time limitation, on the process.
True, the owner died of natural causes, but I was speaking in the global sense. The family fled for their lives before they could recover their property. So many were murdered, and their possessions were stolen. The heirs are entitled to their property. The theft of the painting occurred in Germany, not the US. As for the time limitation, I'm not sure; but I do believe that regarding the thefts from the Holocaust era, the heirs are still entitled to their property.
So statute of limitations only doesnt apply to anything to do with the holocaust? Wonder who came up with that idea.
It's not a statute of limitations as I understand it. Statutes of Limitations apply to those timelines that prosecute for the crime and the criminal. The criminal many not be able to be prosecuted, but the property still belongs to the rightful owners. If someone stole something from me 50 years ago, the thief would not be liable for prosecution for that crime after something like seven years (I'm not sure, but I think that's about how long). However, the stolen item's owner (me) is entitled to receive back the recovered stolen item. Real ownership never changed, just location.
To even suggest that we shouldn't judge him or his allies, is sickening, to me and Jews everywhere.
It is also sickening to non-Jews who don't have their head up their philosophic butt.
You cannot simply judge the paste's actions by today's moral compass standards.
LOL - sure can - anyone with an ounce of intelligence should be able to see that - many US military (and their allies) gave their lives to ensure that we would be free to do so.
@Tom-631064
This may well be the STUPIDEST thing I have ever read in my life. Which Jews had which Christians killed by the Romans and such? Exactly when did the Romans work for the Jews? Please cite any intelligent and legitimate source for the garbage you are spouting. By the way, it's not OK to discriminate against Christians. But it is OK to discriminate against morons, and you should be well aware of that.
I know. Absolutely, like all those Jews who had Christians killed by the Romans and such. Oh wait, I keep forgetting, it's OK to discriminate against Christians, just not Jews.
Tom, you are quite obviously a flaming antisemite! To spout the ridiculous crap that you do, just speaks volumes. You probably believe that all Jews have horns in their head too, right? Whoever said that it was okay to discrimiate against ANYBODY? We were talking about the atrocities of the Holocaust, and their were many Christians, who werent of the Anglo-Saxon bloodline killed, as well.
You are an absolute moron!!
@beth-2605621
Actually, beth, the article has next-to-nothing to do with the Holocaust. Please read the article again, very slowly.
The man had died of natural causes. The Vichy French government found an abandoned home and abandoned property. That is the bare-bones nuts & bolts of the story.
The government took the abandoned property.
This should have been the end of the story.
Nataliya,
With all due respect, I DID read the article. Maybe you missed the part where they talked about the fact that the painting was STOLEN by the Nazis? Thats why it took them so long to get it back to the rightful owners lol
Well thank God they are all going to get some money. I know if I received a beautiful work of art and a piece of my families history, that even the government thought was important enough to return to the rightful owners, I'd sell that sucker immediately. I wouldn't even wait a few months so I didn't look like a douche. Nothing helps heal the wounds of the past like a generous pile of cash.
Well, I agree. Now, when are we going to pay Reparations to all Black-American families, for all the hurts done to their (slave) ancestors. They most surely could use a generous pile of cash, too! Where does it all start and stop, I wonder.
So....
The realities of war are that the winners get to tell the story no matter WHAT the truth is while the losers get ridiculed for the rest of history.
yes
all the heirs want is the MONEY...and since it depicts christ and there jewish whom did they steal it from??
Obviously they "stole" it from Christians who were either to ignorant to, or not worthy of, owning the piece. Kind of like you.
deleted
So, has any "Loot" taken by any army including what was plundered by the Russians, Brits and Americans ever returned....or do we just catalogue that as "liberated"????? You know the saying."if u live in a glass house"....
Was the "loot" taken by any army returned? The Brits, Russians, Americans stole property on a unprecedented level. Do we just classify that as "liberated" to make it sound better??? Hipocrite if u disagree.
@Otto1
If nobody else is returning "liberated loot", then why is this loot being returned?
The Jews had the Germans in their own county like the Americans had Blacks in the U.S.A.;
The Nazi's or whom ever; should not give back a dam thing!
Wow....
The picture is a lie; the Romans made a black man carry that cross up the hill, therefore the picture is worth nothing!
Look Above at idiot !
That what your history book say! Read it; Zimmerman.
If some one is interested in exploring the subject of stolen art during WW II, I recommend watching "The Rape of Europa"--exceedingly well done documentary which touches on many aspects of the issue.
The old saying comes to mind, "To the victor belongs the spoils."
Even in the Hebrew Bible (the Tenach/ Tanach... the spelling varies), you see where the victor "spoiled" his enemy (vis-a-vis, took the "spoils of war").
I would like to see all of the stolen valuables of all the Gypsies, Slavs, and French citizens returned to them, too. But, it just isn't going to happen!
I have read the article again, for the 3rd time, and I just see an abandoned house, with abandoned property. That's all I see. The owner died of natural causes, and all of his kin had already left the city, for other places.
My neighbor says his family left Chicago, in a hurry, to get away from a perceived (if not impending) threat of violence, from Al Capone, the gangster. They lost many valuables, too, back then. Do you suppose that I could convince my neighbor that he--the descendant & heir--could make a monetary recovery, too?
If these people had any decency, they should leave the painting in the museum. They killed Christ for money, and now they make money off of his memory. Disgraceful.
Really? They killed Christ? Wow, these people are very very old. And you are very very ignorant.
I'll agree whole heartily!Malocchio.
@Malocchio
You have it right.... to a degree.
I know that even living Jewish people say "the Nazis took our skin and made lampshades". How can they say such a thing, when the persons saying that still have their own skin!
So, I understand the sense of a collective identity: (viz., they took "our" skin)
So, in a sense, if you extend that to the other side of the coin, then you, yourself, are saying that "you Jewish people killed Christ". But, in reality, a living person of today could not have done it (as well as a living person, of today, could not have had their skin taken, for the making of a lampshade).
Both are talking about "a collective identity", here, I believe.
What a joke. It's all a scam to continue the money train. They ("the survivors") are still getting paid money from the German government while sitting in their Palm Beach condos. Oh well, that's what happens when you are raised and brain washed as socialists. "We" must pay for our past sins or the sins of other we don't know or ever knew....give me a break! The big "O" is trying ther same crap with redistribution of wealth here in the US. Time for a change - he needs to go to! Get back to work America and stop with the hand outs!
Yeah, go back to a country run by followers of a jew who would be considered a socialist at today's standards. I love the irony and the idiocy of those following it...
I would keep it in a very very safe place for a little while anyway and then think about selling it for I want and not for someone thinks it is worth.
A wonderful piece and such an interesting history! Of course it's for sale... quickly.
Talk about a 180 degree moment for me. My father's family lost many of their heirlooms to the Americans when Germany was invaded. Has anyone ever looked for those type of "war trophies" with the same zeal as groups have for the Jews? No.
NO.
As a matter of fact yes they have. And pretty much the same way, when they surface they are returned.
@Dennis-387683
You talking from your "gut", here? Or, do you have the facts?
You really don't know what you're talking about. You are projecting what you'd "like to see happen".
Otherwise, the burden is for you to show that what you say is more than wishful thinking.
@Justajoey
I'm not sure what you are saying. When, exactly, was Germany "invaded by the Americans"?
Joey,
The people of Germany were lucky to be left alive after supporting Hitler and starting the war. You need to study a bit to see what the 'nice Germans' did to the world in the way of war crimes.
All paintings this old are stolen - who's kidding who?
Thank you, the most true statement out of the bunch.
That really really makes zero sense. There are extremely few Paintings that old that do not have a record traced centuries, most from the day they were put to canvas