So we lose wars not because of poor leadership and bad decisions but because women are in the military?

Are you single, or does your wife just hate you? It almost has to be one or the other because no woman in her right mind would accept an attitude like yours...

Probably walked in on his wife with his best friend. Can't say I blame her.

We have never militarily lost a war. The politicians may declare a cease fire or truce, but we have never lost a war. Yes, that includes Viet Nam, Korea and Iraq and even Afghanistan.

Now read what I said: we have never MILITARILY lost a war.

To all the Women Marines .... Semper Fi....I love you ladies...God Bless

Gabriel Camomescro

So we lose wars not because of poor leadership and bad decisions but because women are in the military?

To answer both your questions -

"we lose wars because of poor leadership and bad decisions" - this is what I said and the decision discussed in this article is yet another one of both.

At the same time, the Pentagon said it was developing “gender-neutral physical standards.”

This statement is what worries me most about this initiative. This is a politically correct way of saying that they know that most women can not meet the current physical requirements that combat soldiers meet so they are going to lower the requirements. They know there would be an uproar of they had two different standards, so they are going to reduce the standards the men must meet so that the women can pass those standards. What this will mean is more people dying in combat. Right now when a man is injured he knows that his buddy can drag or carry him to safety, saving his life. With these reduced standards and women in combat, we will have wounded men left laying on the ground in the middle of the battle with no cover to get shot over and over again until they are dead because the woman that was with them did not have the strength to drag the guy to safety. I have no problem with women in combat roles, but the physical requirement must not be reduced in order to make this happen. Forget all the talk about how women in combat will create problems because of the men trying to protect the women. That is a red herring and is not the real problem here. The real problem is that the PC crowd in Washington will want to reduce the physical standards in order to allow more women to qualify for combat roles so they can appear progressive. Doing so will only result in more casualties that could have been avoided. If the women is not strong enough to do the job, do not put them in the job!!!

Some of the toughest, most hardcore combat troops i ever had the pleasure to shoot were the women of the viet-cong....those babes not only were totally dedicated, they would kill you in a heartbeat and not even look back...I salute those bitches...and i'm sure we have a number of hardcore females in our services...give em a chance..

Only job I don't think a woman can do is be a biological father, any thing else well,let them try,at least.I am retired army,and I know that not all women can handle combat,but not all men can either.I have served with some female and male officers that could not pour piss out of a boot with the instructions printed on the heel,and some officers of both genders that I would follow anywhere.Depends on the person.

I would normally rather cut my fingers off than agree with Bill from Oregon, but this is just unnecessary and ridiculous.

It is neither unnecessary or ridiculous. Modern combat theaters are 360 degrees. There is no longer a front line, and women are being exposed more and more to the threat of engagement. Only a misogynistic individual would have a problem with this type of training. You can believe that the Marine Corps (Which I proudly served with in)put a lot of time and effort into this decision. Female police officers are exposed to like dangers, do you have a problem with them too, after all there was a time when they weren't allowed to patrol the streets either. It's called progress.

Give me a friggin break. Are you so stupid to believe that we will always be able to pick and choose what kind of war we fight? Just because we have allowed women to be equally blown up with the men by IED's in an asymetrical bull-crap war doesn't mean that they will be able to hang in high-intensity combat that isn't regulated by all our high-tech toys. That time is coming. Women will NEVER be able to physically handle the rigors of horrific close quarters combat that is demanded by the infantry. All you have to do is to go to any mall in the USA, pick out 100 men and 100 women, give them all baseball bats, and then see whose left standing. As for winning and losing wars, again, spare me the BS of the US never losing a war. The North Koreans and Chinese fought us to a draw, the Vietnamese were left holding the ground, and every shooting engagement since has been carefully orchestrated to avoid another Vietnam type debacle. This is what we will get when we finally admit that we have really not done much of anything to secure long term peace and national security in Afganisan or Iraq, and the vets of this war will have the same attitude as Vietnam Vets when it's all over - FOR WHAT! We have been playing PC with women in the military for the better part of 25 years now, and look what the military has become; we can't even hold the ground ANYWHERE 24/7. It's NOT called progress - it's called abject stupidity! JS in SD has it correct, and how many will have to die to prove the utter uselessness of this decision by a "once proud" Corps.

@Bill from Oregon:

"...but no wonder we lose the wars we get involved with"

If you had any intelligence, ever read a book or even seen a war movie then you would be able to pick up on the absurdity of your statement: they are just opening up to women, how can this current act be responsible for past losses?

If you were a real man you wouldn't be so intimidated by the thought of women doing what men can do.

This has nothing to do with "PC BS", read the 14th amendment and get over it!

I'm all for letting women fight, but I'm absolutely against lowering standards. If you're a woman and you want to fight, you need to fight like a man.

I was an Infantry rifleman in Vietnam. Please forget this women in the Infantry stuff. Look at the photos of our guys stumbling out of the jungle on Guadalcanal, in the hell of the Huertgen Forest, freezing in Korea, the bloody jungle war of Vietnam. How does a month or two without an bath sound to you? 16-18 hour days in stifling heat carrying a 70 lb. rucksack up a mountain to battle an entrenched, battle hardened enemy. Little sleep, hungry, sick. Fatique that people can't even imagine. Clothes in rags. That is the life of an Infantryman in most wars. Career opportunity? Sure, the ladies can be brave and shoot straight. It means NOTHING. Napolean said "the primary quality of a soldier is the ability to endure fatique and hardship. Courage is secondary." Men can simply withstand such things better.

We have chosen to fight wars that could not be won (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan). Does that mean that we have 'lost' these wars. Well - YES!

If you think we won anything in ANY of these wars- you would be wrong. Instead, we have shot ourselves in the foot. We are nearing bankruptcy and the world hates us.

Let's stop waging wars that cannot possibly be won and were not worth fighting in the first place.

How about focusing on diplomacy and the economy?

Prune government, lower taxes, and become the nation we used to be.

If a woman can meet the appropriate standards, why not? I've yet to hear any logical, well informed, or non-biased argument for keeping women who can hold their own, out.

If you boys have a problem, mentally or emotionally, seeing us in harm's way, then YOU are the ones who aren't combat ready.

We get raped, beaten and killed right here in the U.S.A, those aren't unique to combat or war.

Our cycles will not kill us. They can be stopped with zero physical side effects, by a simple shot. Not to mention that women in third world countries don't die from "period" and they don't have the best hygiene standards either.

PMS is not some sort of mental illness that makes us too emotional, too angry, or too anything. If you make that argument you are advertising to the world that you have zero insight into the "feminine mystique".

Like I said, if we can pull our weight, and your's too, there is no valid argument for keeping us out.

Most of the arguements against women in the service and women in combat simply come down to one thing - certain men who don't want their boys clubs broken up. They are like Spanky and Alfalfa and their "He men, women haters club." Lead, follow or get the f*ck out of the way. We don't have time for dinosaurs.

My only concern is that the women be trained and tested with the same standards as men, so that we can be confident they can be just as effective in combat.

If they use more lax standards for the women, then we'll be risking the lives of everyone in our combat force.

JS in SD
they know that most women can not meet the current physical requirements that combat soldiers meet

That has nothing to do with physiology. Pound for pound a woman can be just as strong as a man. The only difference is cultural, basically fewer women grow up doing as many physically demanding activities as men. At least that used to be the case. These days it appears that more recruits entering basic training don't meet the minimum standards and have a harder time building up to where they do.

NYT 30 Aug 2010
"What we were finding was that the soldiers we're getting in today's Army are not in as good shape as they used to be," said Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, who oversees basic training for the Army. "This is not just an Army issue. This is a national issue."

Excess weight is the leading reason the Army rejects potential recruits. And while that has been true for years, the problem has worsened as the waistlines of America's youth have expanded. This year, a group of retired generals and admirals released a report titled "Too Fat to Fight."

"Between 1995 and 2008, the proportion of potential recruits who failed their physicals each year because they were overweight rose nearly 70 percent," the report concluded.

CBS 2 Mar 2011 (CBS/AP) - There's fit, and then there's Army fit. And now the Army's fitness demands are getting a lot tougher.

After declaring last summer that some new recruits were "too fat to fight," the U.S. Army announced this week that it is revamping its physical fitness tests - a.k.a. the "PT test" - updating its old test with new challenges.

In the old PT test - in use since 1980 - soldiers were required to complete two minutes of push-ups, two minutes of sit-ups, and a two-mile run, according to written statement released by the Army.

The new PT dispenses with the sit-ups and two-mile run, substituting a 1.5-mile run, sprints, agility courses, rowing, and other exercises that measure anaerobic rather than aerobic ability. The Army believes the shorter, higher-intensity tests will better assess recruits' ability to perform under fire.

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, who heads Army training, said the fitness test had to be revamped because repetitive exercises like sit-ups don't translate into survival on the battlefield.

Physical fitness is no reason for excluding women.

After seeing "Act of Valor" my 10 year old Grandson said he wanted to be a Navy SEAL. I have 5 Grand-daughters age 12, 12, 10, 7 and 5 they all said that THEY wanted to be Navy SEALS also. I am a Retired Navy Senior Chief and I told them that girls CAN'T be Navy SEALS. All five of them gave me the "LOOK" and said, Well, We'll just SEE about that. Look out, the walls are coming down guys. All five of them swim like fish (we live by the beach in Carlsbad, CA.) and play Chess...something future SEALs are encouraged to do.

Veteran, the walls are comming down and well they should.

It's not going to be easy with the old breed though.The Marine Corps Scool of Quantico is no cake walk. I'll be checking this out. The hills are a killer.

By the way I thought you lived by the back gate and wanted you to look up Sgt. Major Eleanor Judge USMC and tell her the captain has her brother Jim in tow. Hang in there. I Read your article The American Fighting Man In Vietnam. Excellent. Semper Fi

Not all knuckle-draggers need to be women. The Navy has, since 1972, had women afloat programs. Later with pilots, yes carrier rated pilots, and now in nuclear missile submarines, where I am a veteran. As always if you physically qualify for a program you should be allowed to try for it. To me it is question about desire, why should a woman who wants to serve her country, because she loves her country, be denied because of her sex if she can handle the job. For the most part it's the boys club syndrome, as in Calvin and Hobbs, "no slimy girls allowed". I don't have a problem with women who are qualified, protecting our country, but then I have four daughters.

It is going to get worse before it gets better.

sarg..you must have never had the pleasure or displeasure of meeting any dedicated viet-cong female fighters...if so you would never have made such a stupid statement...it only takes 3lbs. of pressure on a trigger to do you in, think about it...

There is NOTHING stupid about his comment. Please don't give me the "viet-cong female fighter". The AVERAGE person in the military is a MAN. And there are some (MANY) jobs that you need a MAN to get it done.

Many of the best military snipers in the world are women (take a good look at the Russian, Chinese, and Isreali armies). Hell my daughter was the best marskman out of all of the recruits male or female when she was at Parris Island. This was a kid who took out ground squirrels with a slongshot at age 6 and could nail a running rabbit through the eye with a .22 at age 10.

In my family girls learn fighting skills right along with the boys. Most of the men and many of the women in our family are are either on active duty in the military or are veterans so all of us as kids learned hand-to-hand combat right on up to and including lethal force so we could defend ourselves should the need arise. We learned how to watch our backs and evaluate situations for possible need of self-defense or to avoid getting caught in said situation. We learned all manner of survival skills, how to hunt and forage, how to track, hide our tracks, hide in a hurry, and how to lose anyone following us. We also learned how to handle weapons ranging from knives and axes right on up through automatic weapons. We learned how to make and use weapons from any materials at hand, too. And as more than one outsider has noted, while the guys may be bigger and stronger the girls are faster and meaner and fight way yonder dirtier.

I'm 5'1" and can put a man over 6' and twice my weight on the ground in a single move, landing him flat on his back with my foot on his throat and his arm in a submission hold where I could crush his windpipe and wrench his arm out of the socket, snap his elbow across my knee, and break his wrist all at the same time, a move my USMC father taught me. As Dad said, the size of your opponent can be used against him if you know how to do it and nobody teaches that better than the USMC.

As for carrying a fallen comrade, smaller women might have problems carrying the larger men but an average-sized woman in fit shape can carry an average-sized man. Even small women can drag big men enough distance to get them out of fire. This is nothing to do with PC. It's allowing the military to draw upon the best of our citizenry to do what it needs to do to defend this country. There are some males and females who are not physically or mentally qualified for military service including combat, but there are a majority of both sexes who are and should be allowed the opportunity to serve to their full potential.

Elder Verdell-The Church At Pentecost There is NOTHING stupid about his comment. Please don't give me the "viet-cong female fighter". The AVERAGE person in the military is a MAN. And there are some (MANY) jobs that you need a MAN to get it done.

Average person? As compared to what... Cyborgs? Just because there are more males in the military doesn't mean that women can't pull a trigger, or lead. Name a job in the military that you NEED only a man to do.....go ahead take your time.

If a woman can lift the same amount of weight, run just as fast, etc. as a male soldier in our marines - then why not???

There should be no problem if the female trainees are tested in the same standards as men. If they aren't than, they should or we will be risking the lives of everyone.

Same standards for all and no lowering them. A lot of the guys can't meet the standards for the elite forces in the military either.

Ok, give me a break with the woman "vietcong fighters" BS. I MET them on numerous occasions during my 4 comabt tours in Vietnam. Know what they did for the most part, make boobie-traps, maintain underground hospitals and bunkers, carry logistical supplies for point A to point B, and screw GI's for intell. The one's we didn't kill outright were sorry they evey got involved with the VC after the ARVN got done with them. I never encountered one, REPEAT ONE, woman provisional in ANY combart assault on our fire bases or manning forward deployed fighting positions in the Se San, Ia Drang, Mang Yang, A Shau, Mui Ba Den and other little valleys that helped me to get a 100% combat related injury retirement. When it comes to courage, patriotism, espirit de corps, selfless service, and a need to do something for their country, men haven't cornered the market, but when it comes to sheer, horrific, close-quarters, butchery, woman had best not delude themselves into thinking they have one iota of a chance. Theres an old saying, "The truth will set us free-but first it will make us miserable". The TRUTH is that the military has been accomodating women now for over 30 years, and in some areas the accomodation has not reduced force capability. In others however, it has been a disaster, and everyone that has served with women in mostly combat arms unit knows exactly what I'm referring to. The same standards are NEVER maintained once the door of accomodation is opened, whether it be switching from running in comabt boots to tennis shoes because women get 80% more stress fractures than men, switching from a .45 auto to a 9mm because women have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn with a .45, or switiching to 3 standard duty uniforms to over 23 for women. There IS a cost, and I really pity the woman that is put in charge or a USMC Force Recon or Leg unit just because she's an officer that has been convinced she can be a grunt. Just because we would like to believe a woman can run up a Hill 975 or Omaha Beach and hang with the grunts doesn't make it so; even many men can't meet the standards of an 11B or 01B grunt. That belief is what makes people lose soldiers in combat. Enough said.

Lady, it takes two to tango. You would be dead as well if it were not for men. Don't try to make your gender more than it is.

Roberta,

Just say thank you to those of us who have made it possible for you and your child to live without fear and thank God that until perhaps now, women were not subject as often or as a group to fighting in a war as men are.

After you do that, you can just shut your ignorant mouth.

It works both ways Roberta, neither sex would be here without the other; PLUS there would be no sin today if it wasn't for a woman (Eve ate of the apple first, then gave it to Adam) therefore no war.

So instead of blaming Bush or Obama, let's blame women in general.

Roberta...go for it, U.S. marine women can just be as hardcore as the boys....ask any marine who served in the Nam, they probably went head to head with some tough asses viet-cong women...I did and they were a dedicated soldier that were cold as hell when it came to pulling a trigger....

Only if you believe in Christian Mythology

Roughly 82% of America does.

Roberta your comment is a joke. Would women be around without men? No. Are women the most precious thing in life? Who is the most precious thing in life to a young female then? You are writing this comment from an anti-women's rights point of view. Saying that what is most precious in life are women, is saying that women are not equal as men, and should not be treated so, and treated like a precious jewel, an item. It's about time that women step up to the plate and take on some real military responsibility, and promoting gender equality. This is a step foward for America, not a step back.

It is still a statement of belief. It is rather like your mother when she asks if all of your friends jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would you. Just because a majority believes doesn't make it truth. To quote "Pope Joan" Eve ate of the apple for knowledge, Adam did because Eve told him to.

Damn straight, Jack3777!!

I feel that I should not have to strap on a penis in order to go and fight along side the men in the front lines. Roberta is probably one of those annoying as hell women who are afraid to effing break a nail in an effort to walk down the grocery store isle. I'm so SICK of that mentality! Jesus, Roberta! Grow some balls - would you?

Women can and will, when called upon in line of duty, be the biggest hardcore bad ass to pull a trigger at a target or to go into close quarter, hand to hand combat. Those who feel that men are going to be protective of me when working side by side are quickly corrected when they are finished working with me. I make it clear that I am equally as capable as you are regardless of your gender or mine! You will see me as "one of the guys". You will let me do what is needed. I will have your back and you will have mine. Period.

And for those who may question me. No, I'm not a lesbian; I'm a feminist. Yes, I'm happily married to a man who supports and loves me for who I am. No, I didn't have a troubled childhood. And yes, I go to church. Wanna play the Eve card? Go ahead. But if you're ass is in trouble in a fox hole some where.. Don't be effing surprised if my hand is the one that pulls you out!

Eve may have OFFERED Adam the apple but he was the dumb sh*t who ate it...maybe if Adam had some stronger will-power we wouldn't be here..

See that guys damned if we do, damned if we don't. If Adam would have declined the apple we would be having trust issues instead.

Beat me to it Bobby Jones Bia, Damned it we do; Damned if we don't!

Also, isn't Pope Joan just a legend, myth, or just a statement of belief of the anti-Pope? Or just a fictional TV character?

Roberta K. Starkey Of course they are...things are always so much more interesting with women around. In fact the men on this planet would all be dead if it wasn't for women.

You obviously put no thought whatsoever into that statement.....and everything after it you could have saved.

tigerneva: Excellent post!

Tiny,

We could give a sh** about the pope or your religion. Our nation is secular. If you want to believe that women are the source of sin, go for it, but keep it the hell out of our policies and laws and it will never be accepted as evidence in support of a position or argument.

I'll tell you what you can do with that "rib".

None do, but i know some that did, and they did it without even a thought....

Amen. And thank you for your service to our country.

... I'd even be ok with watching her back! ;)

@John Williams-nam-vet

"Since young guys these days don't have the balls to join..let the females do it." That comment could not be more accurate!!! I would much rather be surrounded with people who want to be there when it hits the fan than some punk ass guy who "thought" the infantry was cool so he joined that instead of food service.

Jon,I think you have something there. I hope they make an entrenching tool a litle bigger.

Maybe you should learn how to read , and when you do learn the Marines history. This is not a new issue, in fact thefirst female combat training was at Parris Island in December of 1997. Who was President then?

IN FACT:

1. Go wipe the Doritos crumbs off your mouth

2. Pour out that warm Mountain Dew.

3. Empty the ash tray next to you.

4. Turn off Call of Duty (It's not realistic despite what you and your friends tell yourselves).

5. Learn to think for yourself.

ROFL...

Well said Skeets

Exactly and excellent post NC-492358. By reading some of the posts you'd think that the Marines were doing away with males in the infatry regiments and replacing them with all women. There is no front line anymore, and if a unit is under attack what do you think the female service memebers are going to do? Fall on the floor in the fetal and cry? Grow up....

Good points NC492358 and Joe Veteran... As for the fetal position comment. I have seen men do it under attack (may not have been the true fetal but they were not getting anything done other than lying on the ground) and have never witnessed a woman freeze up. Before the haters start up, I am an Infantry officer who deployed twice, once as a PL and the other as a CO. So I have had my fair share of women attachments in various areas to the unit. Some were all that and then some under pressure!!!!!

All agree? Not a chance.

So wait, there wouldn't be any way, but you would KILL off EVERYONE who didn't agree with you? Hmm, now I might just be a piece of backwater trailer trash, but even I understand that's a contradiction. No matter what, unless we can all get along, there will be wars. It's just human nature. Whether it's men leading, or women, or he/she, she/he, it, doesn't matter. Peace isn't natural, it's something that must be worked for by humans. We're just too dang different. I would love to be able to walk down the road and not have to worry about "Is that person going to try and rob me?" or be able to read the news and not wonder if someone is going to try and blow us up today. I respect the Marine Corps trying to give women a better chance in the military, and I think that women can do things just as well as men most of the time. I also understand that our bodies are built differently, men have the muscle for harder work, and women have the finesse that men lack. I'm not saying that women can't do what we can just as well, because they can and will if given the chance. But saying that if women were put in charge there would be no war, and then saying that they would all either agree or kill off everyone else? I'm sorry, I thought the point was ending war, not becoming the same as the power hungry men that govern us. Oh, and fellas? Don't get all pissy with me because of that. I'm a man and I can honestly say that on a historical outlook, our gender has a tenancy to get real hungry for power, real freaking fast. Napoleon, for instance, tried building himself an empire. Caesar, Hitler, the Japanese in WW2, and the list is (not surprisingly) growing bigger. Nothing left to do here.

By the way, one of the finest NCOs I have ever served with was a female.

At the same time, the Pentagon said it was developing “gender-neutral physical standards.”

That right there tells me the pentagon is going to lower the standards of entry. lowering the standards only puts the people around you in jeopardy.

Don't think much thought was given to this decision, just a lot of political correct, egotistical cries from a movement that shouldn't be involved in national security.

Just one question I would ask, What happens if the sh-t really hits the fan and the draft is reinstated again? Going to be a lot of p-ssed off women out there.

"one of the finest NCOs I have ever served with was a female"

No doubt there are some excellent female NCO's in military. By you serving with the "finest NCO" this tells me you are not in the Infantry and really have not been exposed to the experience and quality of an Infantry NCO.

Women play a very important role in the military - and sometimes we die; but we don't need to be in combat school, or on a submarine or on front-line patrol to prove who we are.

You sound like a male chavinist NavyWAVE. And being female yourself, assuming WAVE means women in the Navy.

Are you willing to give up your equal pay eh? Can't have it both ways!!!

btw: a man makes that sandwich for me every morning.

McDonald's doesn't count does it?

I cook for my wife several times a week, and I enjoy it. Equality for all? There should be one standard for everyone.

well, hopefully, you are... having worked in various 'fields', I've always been able to make my own sandwich...

How hard is it to slap together a PBandJ?

It's not hard but it does require the proper ingredients and loving care in preparation. Fresh, double fiber whole wheat bread, natural crunchy peanut butter (properly stirred) and preserves (not jelly). My favorite is strawberry. Carefully spread PB spread on both slices and lovingly, thinly applied preserves. Carefully wrapped until later. At lunchtime, my coworkers ask, "what are you eating?" and they watch as I take each delicious bite.

Wow Victoria, I just dip a spoon in the jar and mayo repeatedly until I'm full.

Roll up the ham or roast beef slice with a piece of cheese, dip in mustard and eat.