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Liberty Legal Institute via AP file
The war memorial known as the "Mojave Cross" sat on an outcrop known as Sunrise Rock in the Mojave Desert until it was vandalized and stolen in May 2010.
A federal judge has approved a land swap that could end an 11-year legal battle over the right to display a cross memorializing war veterans in a remote part of the Mojave Desert.
U.S. District Judge Robert Timlin in California on Monday signed an order that will allow the Mojave Cross to return to Sunrise Rock. According to the settlement, the National Park Service will transfer the title for the one-acre parcel on which the cross sat to the Veterans of Foreign Wars post in Barstow, Calif., in exchange for five acres of donated land.
The parcel is near the community of Cima, about 12 miles south of Interstate 15 in the Mojave National Preserve, a 1.6 million-acre park established in 1994.
The VFW erected a wooden cross at the site in 1934 as a tribute to fallen World War I vets. The cross was later replaced with one made of steel pipes.
The cross stood quietly for 67 years until the American Civil Liberties Union sued in 2001, contending religious symbols shouldn’t be displayed on public land.
After a district court ruled that the cross shouldn’t be displayed on federal land, Congress passed legislation directing the Interior Department to transfer an acre of land including the cross to the VFW in exchange for a parcel of equal value.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in April 2010 that the cross may stay but also sent the case back to the lower courts to review the proposed land swap. The next month, vandals tore down the 7-foot-tall cross and made off with it.
Liberty Institute, a nonprofit legal group that represented the VFW, said the settlement approved Monday paves the way for veterans to eventually restore the memorial. The group had launched a national awareness campaign dubbed “Don’t Tear Me Down” to bring attention to the cause.
“This is a great victory that brings the veterans one step closer to restoring this World War I memorial to its rightful place in the desert and in history," Hiram Sasser, litigation director for Liberty Institute, said in a news release. "We are pleased the government and the ACLU could resolve their remaining differences and begin the healing process for the millions of veterans who have endured this case for over a decade."
The ACLU did not immediately return a telephone call for comment.
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The next step is to complete the land exchange, which could happen before the end of the year, the National Park Service said.
After the swap is finalized, the Park Service will install a fence around the parcel with signs indicating that the plot is private property.
“We look forward to working with the Veterans of Foreign Wars in completing the land exchange,” said Mojave National Preserve Superintendent Stephanie R. Dubois in a press release. “We are requesting that everyone be patient as we complete the land exchange, and we would like to remind folks that no cross can legally be displayed until the land exchange is complete.”
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So glad this is settled. I wouldn't want anyone wandering around in the desert to be offended by the mere sight of this cross.
I'm tired of our communist courts! Aren't all of you!
The ACLU is getting a little out of hand. Idiots.
Precisely what I was thinking. Who's gonna complain.
In the distant past and still among a few of us, a cross is the symbol of the intersection between the physical and non-physical worlds, good and evil, light and dark. Christianity co-opted the symbol for the past two thousand years because the Roman Empire had the unfortunate practice of executing its enemies on wooden crosses. (Can you imagine what the religion would look like today if the Romans had used gas chambers or electric chairs?)
If you have a problem with the power of the non-physical, imagine the impulse that prompts a soldier to throw himself on a live grenade to save his buddies. I realize most people see cross and say Christian, but to me, in this context, it means the ultimate self sacrifice for others, regardless of religion preference or lack thereof.
The thing that pisses me off about this case is it was filed by ONE guy, who admitted he didn't think he would EVER be going to the site, but wanted it removed in case he ever got lost and happened by it.
When did the displeasure of one person with a monument,outweigh the rights of thousands who gain pleasure and strength from that same monument?
When it became politically expedient to pick and chose among Americans who has rights and who doesn't. Some Americans are more equal than others.
It may appear as such a "little issue" to those who think it's fair and constitutional to trample on the religious/non religious rights of others (would it be acceptable to christians to have placed a star of David on the public property?), but as long as christianity, or any other religion, is not being promoted on public real estate, the deal to swap public for private land is completely acceptable.
What I don't agree with is the public paying for the fence which will border and keep trespassers off the private property. The private property owner should pay for his own fence/protection.
You do know that there are Stars of David in national cemeteries all over the world, paid for by the taxpayers, don't you? Does it cause some harm to you? It's fine with me. The main point of this monument isn't the cross; it's the sacrifice that was made. The fact that one man who doesn't even live in California could cause literally years of distress and loss of funds to veterans is appalling, and for no really good reason.
"The main point of this monument isn't the cross"
Then why battle this for 11 years and just put a granite block memorial instead?
"You do know that there are Stars of David in national cemeteries all over the world, paid for by the taxpayers,"
Yes, but it came as part of an employment benefits package for an exclusively used (not common, public area), gravesite.
Please forgive my innocence, but I think the VFW had a very powerful constitutional arguement (spelling?) in its favor from the outset. The cross was there before it became a location in Federal lands. I think the arguement is ex post facto. The cross was in place before the location became federal land. Ergo, it should have been left unmolested. Simple. End of discussion. Unfortunately, the ACLU's lawyers will try to muddy any waters and muck things up - just to try and enforce atheism on all federal property. What's next, forcing us to remove al religious identifiers from servicemen's gravestones?
You need help Debi.
What difference does this make to you?
J.Howard:
The only "help" I need is keeping myself free from others' religious beliefs and away from my using my wallet to fund them. Thankfully, we have the ACLU to protect us from your religious beliefs. If we didn't, we'd be right there with Iran, who runs their country via religion.
Fred Craven: Your ex post facto argument doesn't hold up. If it did, every time the federal government purchased a piece of private property, that would mean the religious relics would be required to stay? I don't think so.
What ever became of all those legal suits over all of those Ten Commandment slabs put in front of many courthouses? They were "donated" by the producers/studio of the Movie The Ten Commandments, one mans symbol is another mans advertising - who needs symbols in the first place?
The local famous Mission here in Tucson sits on Indian tribal land - most likely when the Spanish (Inquisition) rolled into this area, they enslaved the Natives to build it. It now is just a ploy by that tribe to get you to come spend money here - if I belonged to that tribe, I'd lobby to plow it under and return to their native beliefs. Their graveyard is strange, full of crosses (lite up at night with solar yard lights on most of the graves) and nothing to show respect to their former beliefs.
Pride - the sin that all other sins originated from.
How does a Christian cross memorialize the service of the members of the military both past and present that are not Christian and those who are non-believers?
@Pixie I am a 20 year member of the ACLU and I support their stance on this issue. Have you ever bothered to read the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution?
@Mark234' How are the courts communist, as if you know what the economic policy of communism means and how it relates to a issue of religious endorsement by the US government?
Steve - use the logic of the Stoner Bear (you should be able to answer your own question then); why should the wants of a few booze distributors be able to determine what others want to enjoy? Laws are seldom what they are to appease the many - but to benefit the few. The longer a lame law remains in affect - the more converts it acquires.
The accepted paradigm isn't that crosses represent fallen soldiers - but if you want to spin it that way - don't expect logical thinkers to just let you have your way.
I still don't understand the instant-offense to religious symbols like this. I don't practice religion but I don't get offended when I see a cross or a star, etc... It seems just as evil to force someone to take it down because YOU don't believe in it. It isn't there for malicious intent or even trying to force anyone else to conform to that religion; it's a damn memorial.
But this land itself is based on the Freedom of religion, the freedom to believe what you believe in without being forced to believe in something by the governments rule. So, if you don't believe in it, don't. There you go, you're free. Sheesh. The image of a cross isn't forcing your brain to believe something you wouldn't normally without seeing that image. By the way, i'm not christian or anything else, i'm just tired of athiests trying to force the country to be wholly athiest. Unconstitutional.
Why is it that some people can't exist without sticking their cross or star in your face?
The ACLU should be considered a terrorist organization. They threaten and bully people and companies if they are "OFFENDED" by anything. epistemologist read the clause again, nowhere does it say freedom FROM religion, IT says congress can make no law regaurding religion, yet by banning and religion and passing laws that prohibit the display of is VIOLATING the 1st admendment.
MANY of us are tired of all the PC crap, TAKE YOUR PC BULL.... AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR @SS
Are you joking?? Did you even read the article? It's out in the middle of the desert and it's been there since the 30's!! So unless you're almost 100 years old, live in that desert and they literally put it up in your backyard I don't see how you can possibly call something like this "sticking their cross or star in your face". Sheesh.
Debi-1314897 ...(#1.12)..."The only "help" I need is keeping myself free from others' religious beliefs and away from my using my wallet to fund them."
Do you feel the same about funding Planned Parenthood and your free birth control pills.....cause I don't want to pay for those.....
I do hope some kind of Karma befalls the creeps that stole the Cross...
Mike in Delray, You are 100% correct.
Those who complain about religious symbols don't mind having their abortion paid for by the taxpayer. The ACLU has not come down on the right side of an issue for 50 years. If they were honest they would change their name to " The Unamerican civil liberties union ".
Fred Craven, #1.10- EXCELLENT sentiments. Also, at the time of the Terry Shaivo happenings in Florida, I believe the Supreme Court ruled "specifically" that a "Legislature" cannot make a "Law" that targets and singles out an "Individual" or "Group". Rather than let this thing go to Court, like it should have, The Legislature "made a Law" to force a land deal???!!? Again, it's another total Epitome of the "wrong use" of running to the Legislature or The Legislature taking it upon themselves to wrongfully overreach into the Judicial and literally ILLEGALLY SEIZE Jurisdiction of "Existing Law" that IS NOT theirs to begin with. And the ACLU doesn't know that? Doesn't know that the ACLU "practices" in the Judicial Branch, not wrongfully in the Legislative? And the Legislative doesn't know that they "practice" and have jurisdiction within the "Legislative" Branch only? The "Expressive Content" of the VFW's FREE SPEECH was never intended to be "Religious" and it was specifically said that its only intention was to be "Honorary to a specific Non-Religious Group (WWI Veterans)", AND "A Cross" is not always automatically a "Religious" symbol, anymore than a "Fish", which the Christian Religion also uses, but does not own; AND, you will see instances of decorated crosses along the sides of highways and roads where accidents have taken place and someone has died that are put there, obviously, to be an "Honorary" expression that happens to be in the form of a cross to the person who died there. Is it "Religious" symbolism and activity when crowds of People gather and lay items (like laying them on an altar) outside of a place where someone, like Michael Jackson, died? Or is it "Honorary" for those who are there laying items onto an altar?
I think the ACLU needs to be ABOLISHED,not only for their continued clear showing (as above) of them existing as an actual impediment to Society's access to Justice by their continued "Detrimentally Inept-Cherry-Picking" of issues that they actually do pick and where they bring them; but also for their continued clear showing of being that same Impediment to Society's access to Justice by "Detrimentally Inept-Cherry-Picking" resulting, also, in what IS NOT picked by them and allowed to just fall to the ground and "rot", if not left to "rot" right there on the Tree. (and maybe even more so in THAT!)
The ACLU are just making meaningless work for themselves because they don't have the ball's to fight against anything meaningful like the patriot act or stop and frisk policy's. They are afraid that some of their donors will stop funding them if they fight against banning gay marriage or warrant-less wiretap's or government data mining. Sadly they're taking what was once a great and trusted institution and making it a joke. There have always been critic's of the ACLU but they used to be right wing fascists but now common sense people are shaking their heads. Its a shame with so many good fights to fight this is where they chose to make a stand. Freedom means putting up with others doing things you don't like so that you in turn can do things that they don't like.
get rid of aclu, most of the thing's they do is crap
ACLU does many good things. Why do they persist in bringing these kinds of cases that just annoy and aggravate everyone involved and create a bad taste in everyone's mouth for the ACLU. I'm sure they have better and more important things to do. They should do them and leave things like this alone.
Government and religion don't mix in our democracy.
Go check out the idiocrats in Iran if you think so.
The founders were religious, but very smart regarding this. The ACLU is doing its job - fairly well. Defending this representative democracy isn't easy. It's in the details.
Go see the movie "Idiocracy", hopefully, you'll get it.
Allowing a cross is NOT the same as placing a cross. Only the feeble minded can't see the distinction.
Go ahead and defend the ACLU if you want to. The founders of this country understood that individual liberty can only survive if individuals have a strong moral compass. Religion is supposed to be free from undue influence of government, but those doing the governing are, ideally, to be governed by their religious convictions. You know, like babies are human beings too? (Just a convenient red-hot example) The ACLU has never in its history defended any case on 2nd, 9th, or 10th amendment grounds. Please do not tell me they are the defenders of the Bill of Rights.
We already live in an Idiocracy.
I am an Agnostic, but I am not threatened by someone else's freedom of expression. Something as simple as a cross or a Star or David or a Crescent Moon does not threaten the separation of Church and State.
If a legal brothel in Nevada wanted to put up a billboard displaying their "talent" on BLM land, I suppose the ACLU would not object.
The ACLU has NEVER been right about anything ever. They are a Left -wing lunatic fringe organization.
What the Founding Fathers intended was that no religion would receive any aegis from the US Government so as to favor them in an effort to expand their faith. They never inteneded to stop something as simple as a cross being erected in a desolate area that just so happens to be owned by the US Government which they grabbed from a Native American tribe after breaking several treaties to do it. If a Lutheran Minister wanted to conduct services in the lobby of the DMV while people are sitting around, cussing the DMV, that might constitute a breach, but a cross does not favor any one faith and they are very different.
Name one good thing the ACLU has done in the past 5 years????????
@Sticky Justice. How is the belief in a supernatural religious deity in any way proof or even evidence that the person in question leads a moral and ethical life? I can site numerous examples of Christian believers(the Pope, Geo.W.Bush, numerous televangelists, among many others) who are not moral or ethical but evidently they get a pass from you and others who seem to believe that non-believers are not moral or ethical.
It is easy to make an argument that religious believers are less likely to be moral and ethical because they can believe that they chosen sky fairy told them to commit certain acts or they will receive absolution for those acts merely by asking for it. You have also yet to prove that any religious supernatural deity exists or which deity in question (There are more than 250) is the ethical and moral god to follow. You can lead a very moral and ethical life and not believer because the Ethic of Reciprocity, that you might know as the Golden Rule, isnt limited to any religion.
Buddhists do not believe in a god and yet they seem to be very moral people as do secular humanists, of which I am a member.
When you said that religion should be free of government interference you also forgot to mention that Establishment Clause that says that Government should be free of religious interference. Would you be equally supportive if a Muslim group or a pagan group wanted to erect a religious symbol on BLM property or does your endorsement only apply to the Christian religion?
How does a Christian cross memorialize the service and sacrifice of a non-Christian or didn't you consider that possibility? I am a 20 year member of the ACLU, I enlisted in the USMC in 1988 and I am an athiest.
BTW, ACLU fights for Christians.com
epistemologist NOWHERE is there freedom from religion in the constitution, If anyone wants to show there display or stand in public and preach that is there right. If a Validictorian wants to thank her God or the Earth mother or noone that is her right, by refusing to let them thank someone or something in public the government should not prevent that. It says "congress shall make no laws" yet they make laws that ban it, anyone with any common sence can see that is a violation. And as far as mike goes
Our country was founded on religious beliefs, the ten commandments are placed over the heads of the Supreme court Justices, every session of both the Senate and the House are started with a prayer, they both choose a Chaplin to do this as well as "perform ceremonial, symbolic, and pastoral duties". All Senate Chaplins have been Christians. The Bible was one of the few books used in early schools for teaching. Many states had "State Churches" and even had laws to provide for the financial support of churches ( did not say what church you had to support).
Yes,the aclu does SOME good.Mostly it is crap like this.Our religion doesn't hurt atheists,in fact they don't believe at all right?How can they be offended by something"imaginary"
I doubt many are offended by religion. The part that isn't imaginary is the displays of one religion or another on public or common lands or rituals that are held in schools. You wouldn't like another religion's symbols on prominent display in areas you pass or live or other religions taught to your kids, so having none as official, displayed on public land, or sanctioned by the government is fair to all. You can put yours in your church or in your home or on private property. I doubt you would like pentagrams painted all over the sidewalks or hung up in your town on public property, and some don't want your crosses there either, for example. It is called fairness and that concept isn't imaginary. Why not put up a flag that would represent all the dead and not just one group? It's the thinking that everyone else will love and agree with everything we do because it means a lot to us that gets us in trouble.
Pained1, we're just as offended as you would be if you saw a "God Doesn't Exist" banner hanging on the rock....I totally agree with ram....not all soldiers were religious...just like me, I'm a retired atheist soldier and I don't want a cross representing me when I'm dead....
D..Dog, don't worry..when you are dead, you won't need to worry about it.
Daundadog, You couldn't even see the Cross unless you hike up to it. It's just like the Crosses at Camp Pendleton, the Marines built the Crosses and hiked 300ft up a mountain to erect it in memory of their fallen Marines. No one even knew it was there until a magazine publish an article about it. Three of the guy's that helped build, and put the Crosses up have since died on the battlefield. If anyone deserves freedom of speech and religion, it's guy's like that who gave their lives fighting for it.
The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) are Christians not Americans, and shouldn't they have the same rights of everyone else? It seems like they only group they ever target is Christians, I've never heard of the going after atheist, witchcraft, or Muslims. Why can't everyone just give everyone else's religion,respect? Everything was to be so PC, it's ruining this country.
We surely have many more things in this country they could be using our tax dollars to fight for!
A cross on a memorial is never meant to cause pain, "God does not exist" is only there to cause pain. Of course fascists have to destroy any power higher than themselves.
If you just suffered an ignorance that made you artificially happy, no one would care. The problem is that you vote based on your mythology, spread your mythology and its ignorance to others, waste human resources, get in the way of progress and use your mythology as a reason to disdain others. Moreover, as demonstrated by the premise inherent in your question, you want government to support your mythology to the exclusion of other mythologies (and to the exclusion of no mythology which is the default position). That's a sure-fire path to misery for us all. In any event, I'm glad a solution has finally been reached on the matter of displaying your symbols and that you can still do so on private land.
I wish the government would quit forcing those christian "crosses" down my throat at every 90 degree intersection of public roads. Nothing but poorly camouflaged crucifixes disguised as intersections,
and a blatant violation of the Establishment Clause. Everybody knows that each and every one of these "crosses" will have to be changed to traffic circles to avoid offending atheists.
And what about all these government erected street signs with christian crucifixes thinly
disguised as the letter "t". They need to start replacing the christian "t" on all government signs and documents with the non-offending asterisk in order to attain compliance with the Establishment
Clause. It will no longer be Wall Street, but the more appropriate and atheist friendly "Wall S*ree*." Enough of this practicing of religion on government streets and signs and documents. Traffic circles and asterisks all around for my atheist brothers and sisters!
And this is not to mention the encroachment of christian symbols in public education math books.
Everytime I see a plus sign. I cringe at the realization of the distress it must cause all the atheists. Again we must substitute the non-offending asterisk in place of the + sign subterfuge for the christian cross. Those christians are really insidious with their clever placement of their symbols, but they will no longer get away with it once my crusade, er...campaign for non-offending circles and asterisks gets rolling.
I'm tired of our communist courts! Aren't all of you!
Whoa what about Non Christians maybe we should put up The star of David and The Muslim symbol. Hey whats good for one is good for all Right? Why stop there any religion should be able to insert their beliefs into our Government. Freedom of religion remember. (sarcasm)
I think that Government and religion should never mix. Saying a general statement like in God we trust. Is way different than Saying in Christ we trust. Maybe an Atheists god is themselves. Or life in general.
And no I am not an Atheist. I believe in God. But not just one religion.
I liken it to Going into a library. Pulling one book off the shelf. And basing your whole life off of it. I do not think GOD is that small. Just some of her children are.
BillH-485748 but would'nt those upside down crosses have to go as well. I love those ones. All depends on how you want to perceive it.
Oops lake of fire lake of fire
BillH, you forgot the most important stuff - names. Corpus Christi - Body of Christe. Los Angeles - the Angels. San Diego - Saint deago. Chappel Hill. Saint Louis. And of course, church street and chapel street are out. And how many crosses in Arlington? I would bet there are a few athiest soldiers buried under a cross.
I find it interesting to note that in three years of his presidency, Obama has never attended the annual prayer breakfast. He has, however had two Ramaden dinners at the white house for Muslims. No Christmas dinners, no Hanukka dinners. He and his family seldom attend a church ( they are usually away on vacation).
Obama is the only president in the history of this country who has NEVER had an American flag in the Oval Office.
Forgot San Bernadino, San Antonio, San Francisco, Saint Paul,etc., ad naseum.
Sorry, San Diego - Saint Diego.
Maybe the ACLU are in reality VAMPIRES & have reason to be araid of a cross. :)
Ram actually the Texas Ranger star is a pentagram if you haven't noticed. We in Texas do not get bent out of shape by either the baseball team or the law enforcement group.
And please leave our Texas maps alone. where we have San Benito, San Juan, San Isidro, and San Perlita in a three county area. Also you forgot to mention that Corpus Christi is in the county next to San Patricio county.Also you forgot San Angelo and San Marcos and there is the monument at San Jacinto. How could Houston be so naive as to defeat Santa Anna there and not in some place without a religious name?
Not familiar with all the towns and cities in theUSA, but I will bet there are a lot of "San" somethings in California, New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, and Nevada. Plus about a zillion others in the rest of the other 47 states. Obama said there are 52, so it must be so.
Remember the Alamo!
OMG, it is a National Park that was a CATHOLIC MISSION! We must rewrite history, NOW!!
I would hope that the VFW decides to use a more inclusive symbol than a Christian cross. I hope they remember that many vets aren't Christian. Why not a flag? All, rather than some, of the soldiers who died for us would be represented by our shared flag.
And who will be there to raise & lower it??
one acre for five,,,,fkng government,,,,,,and I agree Paul N,,,,and fk the atheists and aclu too,,but that's just me,,,Semper Fi,,,
"fk the atheists" must not apply to all, since you just agreed with one.
Paul - I think he was literally talking about his desires. Make sure your pants are securely fastened.
No, F**K you bagamoto, from a fellow soldier who's atheist.....ya fkin jarhead!!
I always heard there were no athiests in a foxhole, which to me implied when your in combat fighting and getting shot at everyone believes in some religion.
That makes sense as to why soldiers are athiests, running and hiding from danger must not promote the same intensity. :)
US Army rifles for sale, never fired, dropped only once.
Ohhh Rahhhh Semper Fi !
All the ACLU is good for is lining lawyers' pockets! I wish they would all move to North Korea, they need the help! I'd even buy one member a ticket myself! Leave our Christian heritage and rights alone. When an athiest soldier dies, his name gets put on the war memorials, no one is left out. If our founding government had meant freedom fromreligion, that's what the constitution would say. NOT having religious shrines endorses athiesm, so PUT IT BACK UP!
Not having government funded or endorsed religious symbols doesn't endorse atheism. It reinforces the Enlightenment ideal of government neutrality within which citizens are free to make their own decisions about believing in a god or gods or not. And it is the Enlightenment, not Christianity, upon which our country is founded.
Government is not allowed to suppress religion. Only a pathetic fascist would argue that seeing a cross forced him to be Christian. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc. at least preach tolerance, atheists preach intolerance.
Anyone who does not agree with Phil is a fascist, commie, socialist; a typical christian taliban mentality.
Trust our government to steal land from its people 4 acres in fact. What else can you expect?Paul N enlightened government is when the government doesn't impose any belief on its people. That is not our government. Our government imposes a secularism on its citizens that actively promotes attacks on the right of citizens of any belief system other than atheism.
@Mike Dickson. Before you make any more ignorant statements you should read and understand the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution, Thomas Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists, James Madison's essay Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments and Article 11 of the Treaty of the Barbary Pirates because the US is not now and never has been a Christian country.
Your right to proactive o the religion of your choice is protected by the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment but the government of the US is by design a secular body that protests the rights of all Americans and not just those of the majority. Do you understand what tyranny of the majority means and why it is the antithesis of freedom?
Ya gotta love the F****** aclu. F****** scumbags.
Yeah, how dare any group of people fight to uphold the US Constitution? Who do they think they are - patriotic Americans?
3rd view..you forgot to add..fighting for the rights of Pedophiles
The only time a communist lib hold up the constitution is to light it on fire....
Have the armardillos been complaining again????
So forcing the removal of a religious symbol in the middle of a desert of a land with "freedom of religion" is patriotic? Sounds more like an oxymoron to me
We are a secular country. That said I would think a flag would be more appropiate or any other symbol. I am sure not all those that lost their lives are christian. Since they can legally (now) keep it there ok. I just think maybe an all inclusive symbol would of been better.
i totally agree.....now here's someone who's using common sense and not bashing people with different views....
So if I go out into the middle of a desert and erect a cross or a star of david it automatically makes you feel compelled to bow down and feel oppressed..?????
The point of "freedom of religion" is that everyone is free to believe or not believe based on their choice. Government cant pick a "state religion" and compell you to belong and attack others who dont. Your free.
So when you walk by and see a religious symbol you can stop and pray or laugh and walk on...your choice. These lib aclu clown probably never saw this or even knew about it but yet their panties get bunched over it.
I personally don't want the government to take my religion's symbols and use them for their own ends. Jews, Muslims and atheists died for our country too--and the use of a cross to memorialize them is disrespectful to their memories.
Sharon, as a believer that this nation is a secular nation, I was wondering if you and Daundadog would be interested in started a petition to alter the Declaration of Independence and remove the mention of God from said document so have not be offensive to Athesists and Non-Christians alike. Does that sound like a good idea to you too.
It was a frigging cross on a frigging memorial!!!! That's all! It had been there for decades!!! But no, atheists just couldn't let it go, nor the ACLU. Was it bothering anybody??? Just intolerant fascists.
Want to put up a star of David along side? I doubt anyone would give you grief. A Muslim crescent? I wouldn't care. This is just so absurd, hateful people have to force their will on others.
What really gets me is you are acting like two year olds instead of adults over something so petty. If a Cross is so offensive to you, you really are immature. How about the people that after the Court said the Cross could stay, came and stole it. That just shows the mentality of "it's all about be", and I didn't get my way, so I"ll just destroy it myself. Just grow up, and live and let live! Life is to short to worry about being PC, there is no way everyone will ever be happy, so just try and make the best of life!
It is now private property so go fly a kite. The VFW owns it not the government and they can put up a statue of Yogi Bear if they want to.
LOL!!!! Thank you for the laugh, lonereb
Public Land, who fought to keep this country free? Not the ACLU!!
Nor were they all christians.
Correct.
The vast majority were Christian and since no vets complained, just some militant atheist trying to force his views on others thru the courts, the cross must have been OK with those who weren't. My mom and dad are vets, my two brothers and myself are vets and we like it, so should one non vet atheist's desire outweigh ours? If he is offended by it, just do not look at it. As for the vet who said he was an atheist, thank you for serving but quit trying to force your beliefs on the rest of us.
Can anyone tell me anything that the ACLU ever did that was worth while? They have gotten their chief counsel, Ruth Ginsberg, on the US Supreme Court by virtue of Bill Clinton, but that does not count. A cross that stood for 67 years has to go because all of a sudden it was illegal? Who would support this gang of morons? I know, the ultra left and Hollywood's elite. By the way, read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence to see how God was part of our founding fathers and their beliefs. Go into a courtroom and watch as people swear on bibles, watch the swearing in our a president with a bible. All these elements are due to the founding fathers. And the ACLU waits 67 years to object to a cross? What a sorry ass group.
Where is your god in the Constitution? Nowhere. In the DoI? Are you referring to the ambiguous "creator" which can mean anything from your god to another's to nature?
They use bibles in TV courtrooms but not real ones. The use of bibles is not a requirement for swearing in our President. The Presidents who have used them (and no, not all of them have) have done so because it was their personal choice.
Again, our founders looked to the Enlightenment and designed a religiously neutral government.
You are essentially correct.
The ACLU forces us to keep illegals in this country, and also makes us pay for all their, meds, kids, foodstamps, schooling, housing etc...
One big reason we are so broke, and in debt in this country, sad. They are definitely not for upholding the Constitution.
as far as i see it... the cross is a good thing...notice how corrupt we have become ...it's what the american people want...long as they don't have to pay for it during a misguided president's term...
Yea they are wonderful! They, in fact, are organized as a 501c(4)corporation which mostly engages in political lobbying for dimocraps!Their fund is a different corporation.So you have a political lobbying corporation that was overrun with commmunist in the 1920's and 1930's!Not a problem! Most communist are athiest!
The antiamerican communist lovers union hard at work again.....
I understand anger. I don't understand your point. The ACLU has fought for the rights of right-wingers to spew their hateful speech, as well as for left-wingers to do the same. Nothing communist about it--unless your definition of "communist" is anything you don't like.
Neither the ACLU nor the government fights for my rights. In fact the government would be the absolute last people I would call on for help if my rights were in danger. Because they are probably the ones trying to take them away.
I wish that people didn't feel it necessary to shove their religious symbols in the face of others. The separation of church and state about which Jefferson wrote so eloquently, has served our republic well; and I for one love religious freedom. I wonder if the writers supporting the cross would be so eloquently in defense of a Muslim symbol, or a swastika or an up-stretched hand displaying a middle finger. For those critical of the ACLU, I have a simple question. Which of your civil liberties would you like to give up? Perhaps the right to vote, or free speech--or would you prefer state-sponsored religion? Let us leave our religion to our religious leaders, and let the public leader solve our economic problems. I write this as a Christian minister who does not want the government to interfere in my free practice of religion, or to appropriate the symbols of my faith for their own purposes.
So burn a flag.
Why would anyone want to burn a flag? We don't have enough global warming? Does your comment make any sense to anyone besides yourself?
One more time, there is NO separation of church and state. It is about as truthful as the THEORY of evolution.
The phrase "wall of separation of church and state" comes from Thomas Jefferson. Was the most intelligent President of the United States also an imbecile redneck? Just asking.
no, not really, just suggested to the self righteous one that since he is so pure and clean of religion he could always burn a flag instead, piss somebody off with something is all.
My right to vote thats a laugh. 11 groups filed against my state over redistricting there were no representatives of only one racial group in the state that were consulted. So everybody gets a voice except the caucasian citizens. I am still waiting for a voters registration card from last November. The local elections will actually take place a week after the previous terms of office run out. I hope somebody gets 50% or we will still not have someone in that office. The elderly that everybody says the state is trying to take their voter rights away by asking people under 70 to have a FREE ID card will instead be going to vote in July Texas heat. I'm sure they are really happy about that.
The government did not erect this cross; a group of veterans erected it way out in the middle of the desert where it could hardly be seen. It wasn't "shoved" in anyone's face.
I find it fascinating that all manner of things may be done on "government" property, but folks seem to forget that there is no such thing as "government" property. Ours is a government of the people, by the people, for the people, and all "government" land has been confiscated or purchased with taxpayers money. If people can protest on government property, sleep on government property, enjoy campfires on government property, etc., why on earth is anyone harmed if some veterans put up a simple cross (67 years ago!!!) in a remote part of the desert to honor their fallen comrades?
Don't we have more important things to care about in this nation? I know I do. If a veteran wants to place a Star of David somewhere to honor fallen Jewish soldiers, I'm all for that. People in this country really need to get a life.
We of the ACLU find this land swap objectionable for the cause of an endangered species. The very last existing bacterium of bubonic plague on the planet would be disturbed by doing this land swap. And we of the ACLU flinch in horror at the sign of a cross, we also do not like garlic and sunlight burns our skin too, but we do find this land swap objectionable for the sale of the plague, thank you!
Stupid.
as you can deduck, my dear *uck, I am so completely serious and sane also, no?
The ACLU blows.
That is an intelligent comment--worthy of the blogosphere and Idaho residents.
mohammad greeted dead suicide bombers at the Pearly Gates out in the desert and shouted - -"STOP!! STOP!! We are out of virgins!!"
All the millions of acres of public land with absolutely nothing erected on it honors athiests. I'm offended.
yes, me to, I want to be as anal and despicable as they the ateists and stick up a s*%t load of G** Damn*8
crosses everywhere, yes! A-HuAh!!
guess haw many aclu leaders have been charged and convicted of traficking in child porn??? thats 5. at the same time they try to remove this cross and others...and legalize adult/child sex. They are of course big obozo supporters
a few years ago a small girl was kidnapped and killed near me...the aclu came to the defence of the killer. They are in short the lowest common denominator, complete degenerates...and of course big obozo supporters
Some have stated a flag would be more in line because we are a "secular" society. What flag would you want raised? Put up the American flag and someone would want the Mexican flag, an Italian flag, you see where I am going? We have this today, multi-lingual signs, tests for drivers license, phone conversations. This where we are, no Americans any more, a heritage has to be attached.
o he*l yes, just give me a tree and I'll stick up crosses on public places everywhere and compromise national security and violate the pristine innocence of the ungodly masses with that deadlt weapon the holy cross, o yes everything is a fantasy, silly, stupid, unprofitable, nothing is real here, this is all a stupid useless existence yeah, have a nice day, morons . . .
I reccomend first hoisting aloft a flag representing the IRS for target practice first, if you don't mind.
In France you HAD to be a good standing catholic to hold power. In England you had to be a good standing member of the protestant church of England to hold power. In the middle east you had to be a practicing muslim to hold power. Our founders recognized the power and corruption of a country establishing a singular government sponsored church or religion. So the seperation of chhurch & state was to allow citizens from ANY religious background or NO religious background to have equal standing no matter what their belief.
So the display of religious symbols is not disallowed....a singular religion or symbol is not maintained by a government federal or state. A jewish person can become a senator just like a catholic or baptists or a non believer or mormon. Thats seperation of church & state. NOT the outlawing of all displays of religious symbols.
In Addition to, the Seperation of Church and state was put to Prevent any Forced Religious Beliefs by the State and to prevent the State from Impeeding on the Religious Beliefs of a Religion.
Separation of Church, and State was to prevent us form every having a Country run by a State Church. Also so all religions have the freedom of their own beliefs and practices.
I Want no I Demand Total Freedom from Random Capitalization because it is So Offensive to ME.
The Fact that It was a Memorial to Fallen Soldiers Should have Immediately Prevented the ACLU from having anything to say. It Being a Cross then has nothing to do with Religion. If we were to pick apart every religious symbol ever used in any kind of memorial we would lose our freedom of Expression.
Now If it was a Cross Placed their by a Church and the Church was no longer there and it only was placed there as a Religious Symbol then sure bring it down and transport it somewhere away from the park. (Goes for any Religious Crosses). However any Memorials no matter where they are and when they were placed, Should be left alone. Especially if you Take the Land it was on.
ACLU - Learn to not be so closed minded... It seems like all your doing is grasping at straws to try to win legal battles against our government for no ones benefit but yourselves. If it's not a problem don't try to fix it.
If you were to ask anyone of any religious or society background about if a memorial bothered them, i bet 90% or more people would say it doesn't bother them.
If you're not going to play the game with an open mind its about time you left the game.
I would like the ACLU to bend over and spread-em and I will make the cross disappear so they can be Happy
I have no problem with this. As long as they also allow a Star of David to be erected. And a Crescent Moon and Star. And the Buddhapada. And the OM. Because after all, there is no doubt that members of the Jewish, Islam, Buddhist and Hindu faiths also died defending this country under the American flag. And of course I could easily name other religions and symbols.
In fact, there should be a symbol on this site for EVERY religion that has a member who died defending OrAmerica. After all, fair is fair. Or if desired, each religion should be able to purchase the same sized parcel, if they too want a symbol. Again, after all, fair is fair.
I don't know if it was this particular memorial but on one in the last month there also was a Jewish memorial right next to it as part of the memorial. It isn't Christianity they are against they are against all religion. They will try to take our rights to worship in the open away and restrict us to our houses and inside our churches. For all religious I suggest making sure you own the land. FYI for your information in one city here you will be out of luck when you try to attack the crosses there the Catholic church owns the "city" cemetary land.