Even though I disagree with the Scouts for this policy it is their policy and they do have the right to set up their organization as they want. Sad no winners here.

Oops Micheal, I'm assuming you meant "homosexual", otherwise what you wrote is false and makes no sense.

Fallout, allready litigated, they are a private organization. BSA cannot be denied public resources (land), but don not recieve public monies.

The Boy Scouts of America are founded on specific principles and beliefs. If you agree to those beliefs there is no problem. If you do not agree with those beliefs then do not join this organization. That is the point of this whole situation. This mother is homosexual. She joined an organization that does not accept homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. No surprise here. The people at fault are the ones in the local organization who told her to join regardless of what the National Organization enforces. She is a grown woman...she understood the requirements of joining this organization. Don't cry now because when it became known at the National level, that she was not eligible to be a member of the organization.

I would be interested in learning about the petition and the individuals who have signed it...all 170,000 of them...if they are not part of the Boy Scout organization...they have no say about the organization...its principles and requirements...or its membership.

Sorry...not much sympathy for this woman.

She or he or whatever,knew the rules before she or he ever started and so did the peson who let her be a a leader.. I'm sorry the little boy was hurt, but don't blame the boy scouts. She or he needs to blame herself!

Caydid.....

You are absolutely right, it IS one's, the individuals, own business when it comes to their sexuality, but when it is SHOVED into the faces of others, and then we are out right TOLD we HAVE to accept it, that is when it becomes a sore point. I see both sides. I agree with this mother that the Scouts had NO reason to oust her at all. She never brought sexuality into the meetings of these kids, I'm sure of. She loves her son and the fact that they removed her upon those grounds, I think is quite rediculous. From the Scouts point of view, they have always wanted to teach traditional family values and the fact that children should not be confused about what a "traditional" family is, this woman knew the policy, she never should have volunteered..or she should have got it all pre-approved. PFFF, someone call them boggoted, there is nothing biggoted to the scouts, they have rules and they should have a choice about who they want to have in charge of the little troops. Could you imagine the law-suit, if the wrong attending childs parents became unhappy about this woman. Who then gets sued? Yes, that's right, the scouts get sued because their rules say that those who are homosexual/lesbian will not be allow in or be in charge. She knew it and now she is upset. Yes, my heart goes out and I think it is wrong, but where do we draw a line at certain organizations having the rights to say who is allowed and who isnt allowed. What is next, a girl wanting to join the Boy Scouts...well, then it would have to be allowed, just because someone wanted that to happen. There are certain things out there that are the way they are, why can't people just leave it alone? Because they WANT to cause an issue and make a scene, "WELL, THAT'S NOT RIGHT OR FAIR! I'M GOING TO FORCE THEM TO LET ME BE A MEMBER!" Really, that's not right either. A boy isn't going to want to join the Girl Scouts, a hetrosexual is more that likely not going to want to join the gay & lesbian society, a man sure does not want to join an all womans club. That is what is great about this country, anyone can form any type of group or society they want to, but yey, they just force themselve into groups, knowing that they are not wanted in that particular group. Join your own groups and be happy...but I'm sorry, I got off course. I feel badly for this woman and I know all she wanted to do is what was right for her son and other kids and I applaud her for it, but rules are rules, and they are in place for a reason, and many of them are there to legally protect the organization that set up the rules. I'm tellin you, all it takes is one person, the wrong person to fully understand the rules...bam, law-suit against the Boy Scouts. To be honest, look what has happened before with male troop leaders, and some of them were possibly gay. They had to put these rules up, and it's because of THOSE bad apples from the past, that this woman is being ostrisized and booted out. You can't blame the Boy Scouts totally, they have already had several black eyes, they have to protect themselves, and if someone gets their feeling hurt, it has to be that way then.

Scouts (both Boy and Girl) are allowed to limit membership (and some leadership) by gender and age. So why don't we just define the four genders as 1) men who like women, 2) men who like men, 3) women who like women and 4) women who like men.

Then just define - legally - the gender to which an organization's membership is limited. No mean-spirited "discrimination", just a limitation by gender that is already established in many physically oriented organizations.

I guess fallout didn't read supreme court rules in favor of the scouts.So you can see they are not breaking the law. She is gay she broke the rules knowingly and she was fired. You are probably one of those conservatives that thought it was ok for military people to post offensive things about the President. Well he got fired too. You can't just break the rules because you want to

At first, I agreed. I thought since it was non-profit, not taxpayer funded, the BSA had the right to do what they pleased (even though I disagree).

BUT .... a bit of research later led me to find that, surprise, in many ways they ARE taxpayer funded!

Posts/troops "belong" to sponsoring organizations, many of which are government entities (like fire departments, public schools and the military).

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/bsa.html

In Florida, the BSA USED to get a $54,000 grant from the Pinellas County School board.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/florida-school-board-cuts-funding-to-boy-scouts-program-over-anti-gay-stance/

Just a couple of things.

My son is in the boy scouts, and i really like all the leaders they have that work with him and the rest of the kids, if one of them "came out" i wouldn't care at all. if a parent "came out" i would admire their bravory. The issue of Homosexuality just relaes to the religious base of the group. I don't agree with it and i do hope that they can find God's wisdom and understand that just as there is only one race on the planet, human race of course, we are all his children all as much deserving of his grace as anyone else.

"I mean all those scandals with married straight scout leaders molesting boys were all lies then?"

How convenient; when a homosexual is married, yet living a homosexual lifestyle outside his "straight" marriage, and finally comes out of the closet he/she is celebrated for finally admitting his/her "true nature".

But when a married person (or a priest for that matter) gets caught molesting an underage adult of the same sex, they are a not homosexual, just a "straight" child molester. Interesting.

Some people need some reading comprehension skills.... the article said her sexuality was never mentioned or talked about.... people just knew the boy had two moms.... how is that "SHOVED" in peoples faces.... what she supposed to do have one parent never leave the house?

She knew the policy before signing up. She should therefore not be suprised when they asked her to leave. Too bad for her son though. I am fond of my Boy Scout experiences.

@MirVo3

I never said SHE "shoved" it in the face of others, I was speaking of THOSE gay/lesbian individuals (like Rosie Odanald) who do "SHOVE" it the face of others and then expect people to be fine and dandy with it, we have to love it. You are one of these individuals who takes a comment and reads more into it than what is there. Geeze, not ALL gay/lesbian individuals are bad, or whatever. I happen to know several of each and I have no issues with them. But there are those, to include straight individuals who will take an issue and turn it into the proverbial "mountain out of a mole hill" thing.

Scouts no longer receive federal contributions. And we don't care.

It is the Boy Scouts of America and it is a private organization. If you don't like it then don't join.

Bigots are someone whose position you do not agree with because it is different than your own belief.

GregJ No one is asking you to love it, be tolerant. I'm an Atheist and sometimes it feels like religion is being shoved down my throat but I don't make a big complaint about it. I tolerate it and move on.

I'm also man enough to talk to my kids about religion and about what I think but also what others believe.

NC-492358

Actually they receive tax payer money in the form of donations from Fire Stations , city halls allowing them to use city grounds free of charge. My tax dollars go into these organizations which then give it to the scouts. I for one object after reading this.

The Boy Scouts them selves give troops ideas on how to raise funds including local government and state government grants. They may not get money at the federal level but they sure so get our tax money at the state and local level.

It is a private organization, they have the right to do and believe what they want.

Why do gays try so hard to make the rest of us "accept" their lifestyle? I really don't care what they do in the bedroom....it's none of my business. But quit telling me that I have to condone it, or I'm a bigot. No, I'm not; I just have a perfect right to believe what I want about sexuality...or any other topic....and I resent the overbearing, in-your-face crap about how I'm out of touch,blah, blah, blah...

DamonWV

It is a private organization, they have the right to do and believe what they want.

True, it's a private organization, but is is tax exempt, and frequently gets supported perks (free/reduced rent for facilities, etc). That means it has public support.

Personally, I just don't understand why we in the U.S. really give a s**t about who sleeps with who. It doesn't protect children. If they teach what is to be taught, why care?

While I understand that it's the policies of the Boy Scouts, I also believe that trying to shield children away from family circumstances that are different from their own can teach the child to be suspicious of those that are different. Learning to accept others for their individuality starts at the beginning and with age is a very difficult thing to change. I don't agree with what happened here but I think this woman dragging her child into her issues with Boy Scouts can also cause harm. I don't know if there are any groups out there that allow and encourage gays and are like the Boy Scouts, if there are I wouldn't mind donating to their cause. Teaching children respect both for nature and others should be the basis of a club such as that.

I just love all the emotionally driven posts on here that conveniently ignore reality.

Fact: The Boy Scouts of America has a "no homosexuals allowed" policy.

Fact: This policy has been upheld by the Supreme Court of the U.S.A., therefore it is legal.

Fact: This woman knowingly and willingly violated this policy, regardless of what the local Scout people told her. She knowingly broke the rules. End of story.

While I disagree with the Boy Scouts' policy in some respects and understand it in others...at the end of the day, this should be a common sense issue and not open for argument. She broke the rules and she was punished for it. Pure and simple. Don't break the rules and then whine about it. Anyone with any REAL appreciation for rules will not have any sympathy.

Don't like the rules? Work to change them. Don't break them and then cry about it because you got punished.

As a private organization, the Boy Scouts have every right to set their own membership policies. Just because this woman does not like them does not give her the right to demand they change them to accommodate her beliefs. She knew the rules hen she got involved and tried still decided to to get involved and try and skirt the rules. The local organization leaders who allowed this are also at fault. They are supposed to follow the organizations rules, whether they agree with them or not. They had no right to take it on themselves to ignore the rules and allow this woman into the organization. If you do not agree with an organizations rules then quit or do not join to start with, but you have no right to ignore them and potentially open the group up to legal problems. The Boy Scouts not allowing gays is no different than the Augusta National Golf Club not admitting women. They are private organizations and have every right to decide who they want as members. The Boy Scouts have always been about traditional family values. If you do not like that, then don't join. But do not try and tell them that they need to change and accept your alternative lifestyle choice.

I am sick of the gay and lesbian community trying to tell everyone that they have to accept their lifestyle and if they do not then they are bigots. I personally do not give a crap what you do in your own bedroom. How you live your life is your own business so long as you are not impacting others through your actions. However, that does not mean that you have the right to force me to recognize your choices as being acceptable. Only I have the right to decide what is and is not acceptable to me so long as I am not hurting anyone else.

I've seen a lot of statements in here along the lines of "they are a private organization, they can do what they want." As an Eagle Scout, I was a dues paying member of this "organization" and I am likely to volunteer as an Adult in the future with my son. As a member of the organization, I don't remember EVER being asked to provide feedback about the rules and regulations of the organization. I seriously doubt the adults at local levels are given opportunity to provide input on those rules and regulations either.

As a caucasian male, I would be extraordinarily insulted if the organization was to say that as a private organization it was going to restrict membership from African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, American Indians, etc. Theoretically as a "private organization" they could right? That wouldn't make it morally right though.

As a heterosexual male, I similarly find it extraordinarily insulting that Boy Scouts would reject homosexuals. Why? What is the rational? It isn't to "protect" the boys - the statistics don't actually support that homosexuals are more likely to molest boys. In fact, the statistics actually say that a boy is 100 times more likely to be molested by a HETEROSEXUAL partner of a family member than by a homosexual. (Homosexuals make up somewhere between 3% and 20% of the population, so that 100 times number REALLY stands out). So what this really comes down to isn't a protective situation, but rather an out-dated sense of prudish morality.

I'm not so fondly reminded that we had "no blacks allowed" at lunch counters and "white only" water fountains just a couple of decades ago. We've made intellectual strides in some areas and are still beyond backwards in others...

Incidentally, Spider - you are a bigot (seeing as you are "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.") That doesn't mean you don't have the right in America to be so, but none the less you meet the definition unquestionably.

We have had heterosexual Shoved down our throats for a long time... Yet we pay the same bills and taxes as everyone else... At the same time you say it is alright for you to have rights but it is not right for us?? That is a hypocritical thought process... Then when we ask for the same rights, we are shoving down your throat??? If you can get married at the courthouse then how is it considered sacred? My taxes make up for the churches to keep their tax-exempt status and yet I have no right because I am gay... How am I less of a person than you are?? Are we not all children in the Lord's eyes... By the way, He is my heavenly father and He created me and put love in my heart... I don't think He made a mistake since I have had "gay" feelings since I was extremely young... We are all His children and I think it hurts Him to see discrimination against His children... It has never really been about "choices" for a lot of us...

Who do think this hurts the most??? The child...

@ Don't Be A Moron

Switchblade, the problem is that you aren't actually in the majority in your viewpoint anymore (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110928125403.htm) and based on the trends the percentage who agree with you will be down to less than a third of all Americans by the end of this decade.

Now is the time I get to quote to you what homosexuals quoted to me over prop 8: The tyranny of the majority does not overrule the rights of the minority.

@ sheepdog2566

Yet we pay the same bills and taxes as everyone else... At the same time you say it is alright for you to have rights but it is not right for us??

If you can get married at the courthouse then how is it considered sacred? My taxes make up for the churches to keep their tax-exempt status and yet I have no right because I am gay... How am I less of a person than you are??

The subject of the article is about a private organization and not about whether you pay taxes or not. I believe your statement proves my opening remark:

Like every other liberal, when they get ousted for something they think everyone should accept, they get to play the victim; i.e., little tears, poor little boy, and "I am gay and thay is why...."

With the emphasis on 'VICTIM!"

I have an answer as far as being a child of God and being homosexual. I don't doubt those feelings are very strong and seem very realy and natural; however, my bible tells a different story about homosexuality and acceptance. I will not go into it unless I am invited. But I do not think Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the cities were deemed righteous in God's eyes or that Paul was excusing homosexuality in the book of Romans in Chapter 1.

Hey switchblade, does that mean you have no problem with a straight man molesting your kids as long as gay men stay away? you are really twisted.

GregJ

I was speaking of THOSE gay/lesbian individuals (like Rosie Odanald) who do "SHOVE" it the face of others and then expect people to be fine and dandy with it, we have to love it.

I am going to help you out here, buddy. You can thank me later.

This comes down to human behavior... the ONLY reason they supposedly "shove it in your face" is because of the desire to fight back against those who seek to limit their freedoms, or lash out against them.

Let me simplify... the reason they "shove it in your face", is in response to people running around saying: "I hate gay people.... f*** those f***... they are evil, they will burn, Grrrrrrrrrr I hate them. Don't let them marry, don't let them adopt, don't let them teach kids, don't let them do what I do. Grrrrrrrrrr. I hate them, f*** them all. I'm Christian and follow the bible. F*** gays."

Naturally, that puts them on the defensive... just as you would fight back against someone telling you that Christians can't marry, or adopt, or teach (or whatever religion you are).

But here is the trick, when they say "I'm gay"... which apparently is shoving it in your face... just shrug your shoulders and say "ok". That takes all the power out of the comment, because you don't react. This is not just with homosexuals... it works with anything. If someone has a lifestyle you don't agree with, just adopt an "I don't care" attitude. If everyone just stopped caring, then there would be no issue for them to push.

Why people, specifically conservatives, care SO MUCH about what a stranger does in their own personal life, is beyond me.

Wow! I can't believe how many anti-gay posts are on this liberal board.

Why is everyone so concerned with her sexuality if she doesn't openly flaunt it. I could see if it was some flaming fashion designer male, but just an average lesbian, really?. I would feel safer having her watch my boys than a man of either preference.

On the flip-side, they do have their rules and she broke them.

Personally I think this country would benefit from a little more tolerance all around. I don't decide who I like or don't like based on their color, sexuality, religion or lack thereof, ethnicity or anything else. Judge each person for who they are and give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove you wrong. Then dislike them because of the person they are, not any of those other things and move along.

I cant believe that her termination had to do with being a lesbian, though it was certainly convenient that she was. If you completely read the article, she had "noticed" some discrepancies in finances which I can assure you was the real reason.

Also...so interesting and sad how many folks...in this day and age....still gay bash.

Antoine in MD says: Michael-267231, If a man molests a boy, I don't think you can consider him a heterosexual. He clearly has preference for other males, albeit, young males. He is a deviant homosexual, but homosexual none the less.

So, based on your reasoning, if a man molests a young girl, he must considered a heterosexual. He clearly has a preference for females, albeit young females. He is a deviant heterosexual, but heterosexual nonetheless. The logical conclusion is: we should absolutely ban all heterosexuals from any position where they interact with children, such as schools. Right? Yeah, that's the problem with having only half of a brain.

She knew the regulations before she started.

These douchebags get my tax dollars, you're damned right I have a say in their business.

First off the child was not kicked out of the pack.If he is not going now it is because the mom chose to stop taking him. Also in a cub scout pack parents are allowed at all events...the only thing that really changed is that she can not be a leader.She could still go to the meeting with her son as a parent. It sounds to me like her pride was hurt so she pulled her son out of the scouts which was her choice...but her son could have continued to be a scout if she wanted him to be.

As the child gets older and moves to a troop it could become more of an issue...but in the pack there would be no problem with her and her son going...just with her as a leader.

No one wants a gay man taking their young boy on a camping trip in the woods. Gay men like other men, if anyone has ever been camping in the woods they know there is not much privacy. The same would hold true for a male leader taking a bunch of young girls in to the woods. They make policies like this because they are looking out for the best interest of the children. Not the feelings of the parents or leaders.

Why in the world would this "Mom" join the Boy Scouts when it is common knowledge they do not admit gays? Did she think they would ignore her? I don't know if she had an agenda or not, and quite frankly don't care. The Boy Scouts were within their right to dismiss her. End of story. Please make better choices in the future.

@ JonSmith93903

I believe there is a strawman argument here:

Hey switchblade, does that mean you have no problem with a straight man molesting your kids as long as gay men stay away? you are really twisted.

I don't think anywhere in the argument or my post was I talking about molestation or pedophilia. In case you are wondering, I do have a problem with straight man OR WOMAN molesting my boys!

@ Sick of the Situation

Why is everyone so concerned with her sexuality if she doesn't openly flaunt it. I could see if it was some flaming fashion designer male, but just an average lesbian, really?.

This is the whole attitude of most people. I do not see how one cannot see that this person was flaunting her homosexuality to the Boy Scout pack she was leading? They admitted that the boys were talking about this woman's child having two moms! Cannot one see the impact of this situation?

In days gone by, the boys in the pack would have been all over that! Two women living together as lovers? That is so wrong. And their voices would have been heard!

In this case, the boys in this pact had to keep quiet about how they might have felt about their pack leader becuase she may have put bad marks towards their merrit badges if they voiced their displeasure at her being married or living with another woman. I would call this scenario sexual harassment!

@ IndieParty

No one wants anything to do with your worthless, disgusting offspring... but you still feel the need to force these cretins on society.

I don't want to hear your f***ing kid crying in the restaurant. Shut that damn thing up. I don't want to hear, or see your sniveling brat on a plane. Shut that damn thing up, and make that monster stay in it's mother f***ing seat. I don't want to deal with that thing running around a store, I don't want to hear that little f***er asking me to buy s***, and I especially will not change my language just because your offspring is around.

So you get to force those damn things on society, and force us to accept them and put up with them. But you feel that you have the right to tell other people to hide from society and stay away from you? As a straight man, I can honestly say that I can't stand your f***ing kids. Keep them the f*** away from me and my wife.

OK

But here is the trick, ... which apparently is shoving it in your face... just shrug your shoulders and say "ok".

LOL!

The Boy Scouts of America is not a "private" or a "non-profit" orgainization. Weren't ANY of you Scouts? The BSA is a Congressionally-Chartered Corporation, wholly owned by The Congress of the United States. It is generally referred to legally as a "36 U.S.C. Chapter 309" Public Corporation. Another better-known public corporation is the US Post Office. While Congress doesn't actually "run" the BSA, the BSA is legally accountable to Congress to obey its charter to the letter. This gets the BSA a whole raft of exemptions, waivers, deductions, and relief from taxes and state and local oversight. Overall, a good deal for the BSA.

But, as a Congressionally-chartered public corporation, one would expect that the fairness and transparency that one expects from our government is the same we would expect from the BSA. The government is evolving and the BSA should evolve along with it. It hasn't been that long ago that slavery was accepted as legal but we evolved. And Civil Rights and Womens' Suffrage and even Don't Ask, Don't Tell were attempts to evolve even further. The ultimate goal of any domocratic society is to extend its benefits to all its citizens evenly and seamlessly. As a social orgaization, shouldn't the BSA have the same goal?

@ IndieParty

Apparently you lack the intellectual capacity to read between the lines. I was demonstrating the irony that you force your lifestyle on society... even though someone people do not like it... while at the same time telling others not to force their lifestyle on you. Hi kettle, this is pot... you're black.

I mistakenly assumed you were smart enough to see the comparison, and understand the overall point. Obviously I was wrong.

Would it make more sense if I used the words "Yee haa" while describing a NASCAR analogy? Perhaps if I pretended to be in a trailer park, you would catch on.

OK

OK

GOOD... you are actually learning. See how easy that was?

Now just do this same thing with homosexuals. You don't like them, just say "ok". That's it.

I'm proud of you, switch. It took some time, but now we are getting somewhere. Good boy.

Look at that, folks. I actually got a hate-filled, anti-gay Christian to learn something and start down the path of being a decent human being. God damn I'm good. I should really charge for this service.

Switch - I usually don't watch the video, just read the article, but I ended up watching the video after I posted my comment. I will admit that this woman is probably not someone I would like or want to spend time with, but not just based on the fact that she is gay. I have known some lesbians that play it cool and don't let their choices change them from just leading normal lives and being productive members of society.

Like so many others, people segregate themselves so they can be attention whores and get some spotlight for a while.

I still believe in most of what I posted further up

This is a case where people should vote with their feet. If you don't like the rules, just steer clear. Frankly, I have no use for the BSA. I would not have wanted my kids to be scouts. The entire program seems to me to encourage immaturity and dwells of meaningless actions as if they were of value.

As far as when kids should be taught about homosexuality, it should be taught along with sex education before puberty. This whole thing smacks of the denial of humanness and the suppression of knowledge that some people don't want young people to have.

But go ahead and teach your children as you see fit. The lack of knowledge is far more dangerous than the possession of it. Confronting reality without information is tough on anybody.

switchblade-2693948

Please don't bring the bible into this as evidence or excuse for your personal feelings. It just does not wash as it becomes an uncomfortable silence when I ask: Why do you choose these laws to follow and not others in the bible how do you pick and choose what to follow and what to ignore? Would you honestly kill your children for cursing at you?

I admire people of faith however I do not admire those who hide behind the shroud of a few bible verses as a reason why they dislike (and do so vocally) another human being's immutable, unchangeable attribute.

Todd: "Typical, anyone who disagree's with you is a bigot. I agree with Micheal, my son would not be in a Boy Scout troop (camping, backpacking etc), or any similar group lead or chaparoned by a gay man or woman, period! Gadz, it's not rocket science"

Correction: Anyone that denies access to certain resources and positions to others because of gender and or sexuality is a bigot. You and I have our right to our opinion until the policies we would like to uphold discriminate against other groups of people.

Krestov: Good post i think its neat that new zealand changed things like the admission requirements. America has a long way to go until we actually practice what we preach in terms of equality. It is an embarassment. I blame it on the knuckledragging neanderthals that unfortunately show up on election day. Don't they have some lynching to do?

Antoine in MD and Tod-2791955 and everyone else who thinks I got it incorrectly - no. I meant heterosexual, not homosexual. The people I'm talking about are usually married with children and totally heterosexual. That said, homosexuals who work with children are more likely to not molest them.

Before you say that I don't know from whence I speak, I've seen it happen. It's the straight people who will go and molest children in youth groups. Never a gay person.

I see switchblade is on here, just as annoying as usual.

@ Sick of the Situation

I have known some lesbians that play it cool and don't let their choices change them from just leading normal lives and being productive members of society.

I have know some women too. One was my student adviser at the community college I attended. She was also the women's softball coach.

I really liked her too. I was in student government and spent a lot of time with her. However, she let her predjudice out occationally. But, I had to let that slide. It was the right thing to do.

That being said, I don't have any business telling these people how they should live, who they may live with, or what they do between themselves. But that is not how society works. We see in this article, these two women were involved in the lives of children. My adviser was involved in my life as I was in hers. We agreed to disagree. Would these children have the same rights or strength to stand up to this Boy Scout leader?

This is why I am so adament that we as a society not accept gay marriage. Just keep it to yourself. There are many more reasons than just this one, but for the sake of society, I believe that homosexuality should be between two people and two people alone.

When you put marriage rights to homosexuality, it becomes between two people and the people that have relationships, acquaintances, or professional contact. This is why I feel that it is in my face because to speak out against it brings on the name calling--hater, bigot, homophobe, etc....

Jeff Henderson - your statistics are wrong. 98% of the child molestation is done by heterosexuals, not homosexuals.

swtich

So close... we were so close to having you be a decent person. I'm not gonna lie, I'm disappointed.

I know a couple and have a freindly relationship with them. They know how I feel and have even given them a book or two describing how they can leave the lifestyle choice.

Wow, you are a wonderful friend. I'm not sure what is more pathetic, the way you treat your "friends" or the fact that your friends have such low self esteem that they choose to be around someone like you. Oh well... to each their own.

The Homosexual life choice is wrong for a number of reasons and not just biblical reasons either!

Well... I could go into all the scientific and factual data that proves it is NOT a choice. But I am guessing that would all go over your head. I could also point out the societal benefits of a homosexual population... but again, that requires a certain level of intelligence and critical thinking skills which, let's be honest, is not exactly your forte.

Keep spreading the hate, buddy boy. I'm sure Jesus would be proud.

softdude: When do we teach kids about child sexual abuse? More children are sexually abused than are homosexual. Would GLADD have an issue with telling children that being molested by a person of the same gender doesn't make you gay?

@Michael:

"98% of the child molestation is done by heterosexuals, not homosexuals."

Ever heard of NAMBLA? I believe the majority of it's members were homosexual men, including Harvey Milk. They teach school kids in CA that he was some kind of hero in the gay movement.

At tax payer expense.

It's a good thing they got rid of this lady, otherwise she may have taught all those boys to become lesbians and start liking girls... oh wait.

@ IndieParty

Well... I could go into all the scientific and factual data that proves it is NOT a choice. But I am guessing that would all go over your head. I could also point out the societal benefits of a homosexual population... but again, that requires a certain level of intelligence and critical thinking skills which, let's be honest, is not exactly your forte.

Keep spreading the hate, buddy boy. I'm sure Jesus would be proud.

OK

@ Krestov

Please don't bring the bible into this as evidence or excuse for your personal feelings. It just does not wash as it becomes an uncomfortable silence when I ask: Why do you choose these laws to follow and not others in the bible how do you pick and choose what to follow and what to ignore? Would you honestly kill your children for cursing at you?

Interesting. You ask me not to bring the bible into something, then predispose of how I might answer the question you ask me about the bible or my belief system. Hmmmmm..... We all have a belief system; even you do.

But, I always try to honor those who would not like to bring the bible into the debate and I will honor your request.

I admire people of faith however I do not admire those who hide behind the shroud of a few bible verses as a reason why they dislike (and do so vocally) another human being's immutable, unchangeable attribute.

Most authorities agree that a pedophile cannot be cured or changed, although I personally disagree with that assumption, because it is not true 100% of the time. But, if one is true to his beliefs about an unchangeable attribute, such as pedophilia, then why don't we accept that as well?

Or, how about Algolagnia? Why don't we set up parlors for these people?

One could go on about a person with an 'addictive personality.' Why don't we just take on the same drug policy that they have in Amsterdam? Don't these people have the right to do soft drugs because they are not really hurting anyone?

How about zoophilia? Mamal to mamal love like the movie zoo portrays and was practiced in Washington state where there were no laws against zoophilia. Did not Kenneth Pinyan feel love for his horse?

RevSpinnaker

@Michael:

"98% of the child molestation is done by heterosexuals, not homosexuals."

Ever heard of NAMBLA? I believe the majority of it's members were homosexual men, including Harvey Milk.

Your reference to NAMBLA and somehow applying that to the majority of homosexuals is like referencing the KKK and applying it to the majority of whites - which is to say... you are in error.

The actual statistics are that a boy is more than 100 times more likely to be molested by a HETEROSEXUAL individual in a relationship with one of the boy's family members than by a homosexual.

(Please go the clue store and buy one).

So let me see if I understand this story. This woman and her spouse decide that they would like for their son to have the experiences that scouting provides. So they sign him up. None of the "good" hetero parents can be bothered to actually volunteer to be the den leader so they offer her the leadership role almost immediately because without a leader no pack. She does a good job. No complaints. No "homo" indoctrinating. No problems except she notices some financial "irregularities" that she discovered and reported. Then the scouting experience they decide to provide is teaching intolerance and that it is OK to discriminate. Further teaching that some people are second class citizens.

@ Switch

Most authorities agree that a pedophile cannot be cured or changed, although I personally disagree with that assumption, because it is not true 100% of the time. But, if one is true to his beliefs about an unchangeable attribute, such as pedophilia, then why don't we accept that as well?

Or, how about Algolagnia? Why don't we set up parlors for these people?

One could go on about a person with an 'addictive personality.' Why don't we just take on the same drug policy that they have in Amsterdam? Don't these people have the right to do soft drugs because they are not really hurting anyone?

How about zoophilia? Mamal to mamal love like the movie zoo portrays and was practiced in Washington state where there were no laws against zoophilia. Did not Kenneth Pinyan feel love for his horse?

So basically your judgement that homosexuality is a perversion makes these examples valid. Or to put it another way for most of us, your arguments are valid in this reference.

But, if one is true to his beliefs about an unchangeable attribute, such as pedophilia, then why don't we accept that as well?

The HUGE difference between consentual relationships between 2 adult homosexuals and pedophilia is the victimization.

2 adults who are gay are able to make their own decisions regarding their relationship. No one is victimized.

When an adult of any orientation has sex with a child, it is wrong because a child is not old enough to consent to the act-thus the victimization.

It is wrong when men victimize boys. It is wrong when men victimize girls.

How is this hard to understand?

Also, NAMBLA is not an organization for homosexuals-it is an organization for peddophiles. Again-there is a huge difference in the same way there is a huge difference between a man being attracted to women and a man being attracted to young girls.

switchblade-2693948

You are correct pedophilia I suspect is a genetic problem, however it also involves the illegal act of molesting a child which as mentioned is Illegal. Being gay is not. As for algolagnia oh I am sure there are parlors for this it is not illegal of course only if both parties are agreeable. Also I am sure two algolagnics (sp) if straight could marry each other if they chose.

Human sexuality is a genetic trait, that is a fact. Trying to excluding consenting adults from society for something that is not illegal and is also not a choice is illogical.

No one wants a gay man taking their young boy on a camping trip in the woods. Gay men like other men, if anyone has ever been camping in the woods they know there is not much privacy. The same would hold true for a male leader taking a bunch of young girls in to the woods. They make policies like this because they are looking out for the best interest of the children. Not the feelings of the parents or leaders.

A gay man is not the same as a pedophile. The boy scout policies are based on religion anyway. I would be denied membership too for being an atheist even though I’m not gay. I say screw ‘em. I have no interest in sending my boy to an organization that teaches him to discriminate against those born differently. I can and have taken my kid camping myself and with my friends who aren’t so bigoted.

@ Don't Be A Moron

So basically your judgement that homosexuality is a perversion makes these examples valid. Or to put it another way for most of us, your arguments are valid in this reference.

Well, to be honest with you, I believe homosexuality to be a perversion nature or what man's genitatlia was created for and the same of that for women. But this is not what I am trying to say by these arguments.

People will say that I feel strong attractions to the opposite sex and that they have had these attractions since 4 or 5 years old. Therefore, I must have been born this way. I am not disputing those facts or feelings. I am saying the pedophile has strong feelings too. They have had these feeling since early on.

The point is, just because a person feels something does not make that feeling right. We tell the alcoholic when he feels like having a drink to call his sponsor. We tell him to attend meetings. We tell him to stay away from bars or places that serve alcohol for as long as it takes because if he gives in one time to his feelings for having a drink he is back off the wagon.

So, in reality, what I am saying is that homosexuals have these feelings. For years it was deemed inproper to have those feelings. Now, we as a society have seen fit to give in to those feelings. I don't think it is a wise choice to alow are selves to be governed by how we feel.

And of course, I have a belief system that would coincide with what I just wrote.

@ uchusky99

When an adult of any orientation has sex with a child, it is wrong because a child is not old enough to consent to the act-thus the victimization.

But there is the case of Christopher Hooker and Jordan Powers in Modesto, Ca., that would seem to say that there can be consent at 16, 17, or even younger. What makes it wrong when a 16 year old says he or she wants to be with someone who is 41?

In the Hooker case, there must have been some consent on her part while he was teaching her.

The point is, just because a person feels something does not make that feeling right. We tell the alcoholic when he feels like having a drink to call his sponsor. We tell him to attend meetings. We tell him to stay away from bars or places that serve alcohol for as long as it takes because if he gives in one time to his feelings for having a drink he is back off the wagon.

You are comparing homosexuality to things that have well defined negative effects. The only negative effects for practicing homosexuality are caused by people who simply don't like it. I see no reason to tell someone they can't have a relationship simply because it bothers some third party. It's like telling someone who likes watching football they shouldn't because they are giving into their feelings. I find that silly.

@Toasty, they don't recieve tax money, that's why the Supreme Court was cool with it. Kind of like how you have to be a veteran that served overseas to be in the VFW. Sorry, gonna have to find some other organization to gripe about taking your tax dollars.

@ Krestov

You are correct pedophilia I suspect is a genetic problem, however it also involves the illegal act of molesting a child which as mentioned is Illegal. Being gay is not.

You make my point. Up until about 1962 most states had sodomy laws on the books which basically meant one could go to jail for being a homosexual if caught in the act. While not widely enforced, it was still not legal, and not leagal in all states today, to marry or cohabitate as conjugal partners, in the United States. There were reasons for these laws just as there are laws detailing punishment for haveing sex with your horse or dog or marrying too close a relative.

Also I am sure two algolagnics (sp) if straight could marry each other if they chose.

Maybe true, but if it gets out of hand, and sometimes does, like in the case of Robert Chambers, Jr. and Jennifer Levin where the latter died as a result of algolagnia. Then it becomes a criminal matter. So, where are we going to make a distinction between was is acceptable and what is not? And on what authority are we going to make that distinction?

Human sexuality is a genetic trait, that is a fact. Trying to excluding consenting adults from society for something that is not illegal and is also not a choice is illogical.

While, argueably true, I don't believe there is a 'gay' gene. In fact, no competent scientist has said there is a 'gay' gene. They think there is one and that studies point towards there being a 'gay' gene. But this is setting up a theroy like evolution and then using junk science to prove your point; i.e., like Steve Squyres saying Mars was drenched in liquid water because they wanted to find it so...in fact, that theroy is now debunked.

I have debated this issue for a long time. The bottom line is going to come down to whether you put faith in the bible and what it says or not. There is junk science on both sides of the issue as well a sociological studies on both sides of the issue. So, a person has to go with their own belief system. However, in my belief system, where you put your faith has great consequences for choosing not to believe in the truth.

@ Krestov:

"You are correct pedophilia I suspect is a genetic problem."

Incorrect. The majority of sex offenders were also molested as children. The cause for their perpetuating the crime is undetermined.

@ DBA Moron:

"Your reference to NAMBLA and somehow applying that to the majority of homosexuals is like referencing the KKK and applying it to the majority of whites..."

I was simply stating NAMBLA was comprised of homosexuals, not that it represented all gay men. Last I heard the KKK was pretty much all white. Also citations please. Married "heterosexual" men commit the majority of sexual abuse against boys within the home. But females perpetrate at least 30%, including aunts, babysitters etc. They victimize girls also. Don't forget to include children who were molested and are repeating the behavior on a younger sibling. Cite your references for your 98% statistic. You have proof only 2% of pedophiles are gay men?

How many gay men were molested as children?

@ Swan37

You are comparing homosexuality to things that have well defined negative effects. The only negative effects for practicing homosexuality are caused by people who simply don't like it.

But it does have a negative affect. I posted earlier how can one not read this article and not see the negative affects it has? Look at the termoil that the issue has caused for those in the armed forces. Or, how about in schools such as the David Parker case. It would be fine if ALL of us accepted it. But we all do not and have very strong beliefs about homosexuality being wrong and these beliefs will not go away.

Then, look at the AIDS epidemic. Sure, it was supposed to be carried over from some third world country by a person practicing zoophilia, but it has been related to the homosexual male crowd. In modern times it is more evenly transmitted by both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

But that being said, there is a lot to be said about a belief system that says one should not have sex before marriage. If we all practiced this, then there would not be such a thing as syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, etc...

So, I would not only say that the homosexual choice is wrong but so is the heterosexual choice to have sex before marriage is wrong as well. To me, they are as equally as damaging to society because of what the act itself does to the psyche.

If you don't like this policy, you don't have to support them; beyond not joining, don't buy their popcorn, etc., that they sell at the entrance of various stores, etc.

That this made news also helps make their rules more transparent.

I find it hilarious that for hating gays- they sure don't have a problem begging for money from them at the grocery store (nasty popcorn and cookies) they can act however foolishly they like and i will keep my money and my kids out of their trashy organization- now if only I could get them to stop pestering me for money every time I go to buy groceries.....

Flash back 50years ago when it was more socially
unacceptable for homosexuality...Gay men would pretend and hide the fact that
they were gay for fear of the consequences. As a consequence, they lied to
themselves and their wives to uphold a "normal" family image. Not
only does that hurt the gay man, that probably hurts the wife and kids even
more. The bottom line is homosexuality exists period. It exists within society
and has since the beginning of time and it exists in nature in other species.
These are facts. Now living this "normal" lifestyle benefits who
again? Instead these men would go to clubs or porn theaters or private clubs to
express their urges that society made them hide therefore made them marry a
woman and have children and F up the whole family allll so that they looked
normal from the outside. That honestly makes me sicker then if the man could be
true to himself and lead the existence he wanted to. My mom had a neighbor that
was married and had 2 kids with his wife. Everyone knew of his affairs with
men, it was the talk of the neighborhood. How is this any better?
Marrying/having sex with a women doesn't make you straight. its a matter of
attraction and clearly there are people attracted to the same gender. To me
this charade is heartbreaking for everyone. There have been oprah specials
about men finally comming out to their wives. Hearbreaking. Psychologists have
conducted experiments on homophobes and 9 times out of 10, the homophobes are
the ones that get more aroused by watching gay porn then the straight
non-homophobes. It is a conflict within that makes people homophobes. a denial
that they may have these tendencies but they are socially unacceptable. I would
rather live in peace and harmony and acceptance then a world full of denial because
really, who is benifiting? you homophobes cus you don't have to see two guys
holding hands? get over it. there are plenty of things i put up with in this
country and remember we are the land of the free. what does that mean to you?
free until you think its wrong? shove it. And remember, you gay bashers, a lot
of you watch "lesbian" porn and get turned on. YOu are nothing but
hypocrites. if you believe being gay is wrong, then NO LESBIAN PORN FOR YOU! ya
i bet that hits home and im not necessarily trying to be funny. Not to mention
you homophobes are slowly becomming a minority and thank god. And also, many of
you also have anal sex with your women which i find disgusting. for you bible
thumpers, the bible says you should stone someone that works on the sabbath.
what state is that legal in again? also it says it is an abomination to touch a
women on her period because she is unclean? well there goes sex on her period
which btw is harmless. the bible condones slavery in leviticus. living and
breathing book there huh? i think not. jesus never said one single thing about
homosexuals. finally who cares what YOUR
religion states it is just that YOURS. We live in a nation with many different
cultures get over it and evolve.

@Sick of the Situation

"Wow! I can't believe how many anti-gay posts are on this liberal board.

Why is everyone so concerned with her sexuality if she doesn't openly flaunt it. I could see if it was some flaming fashion designer male..."

Wow, for a liberal poster you sure sound like a bigot. I once heard Joy Behar call Leonardo DaVinci a "flamer." When questioned about it she responded,"oh yeah they all are." Even liberals can be bigots.

"...but just an average lesbian, really?. I would feel safer having her watch my boys than a man of either preference."

Babysitters are some of the biggest female molesters out there. But maybe you're one of those macho guys who'd say his little boy just "got lucky" young.

"Gay does not equal pedophile but it is the simplest solution."

Yes its the simplest way to act like you are do something when you are not, it is not a solution its a mask. Pedophile does not equal gay people, Gays are attacked to the same sex and pedophiles are attacked to kids they are different.

I bet that Jerry Sandusky would have had no problems being a scout master as far as the Boy Scouts were concerned. Solution? Not.

Being a child, hopefully an innocent child comes once in a human's life time. Homosexuals and lesbians should not be introduced into a children's society and destroy that innocence forever. There is time later in life when adolescents adults can talk about, discuss and debate homosexuality but a child is a child only once. Let him not worry and question about someone having two moms, two daddies or what it means and why it happens and who occurs during a homosexual or lesbian relationship.

The boy scouts hate us Atheists too. What a bunch of haters.

dictionary: Good point about protecting innocence, I think that is the intent of the Boy Scouts policy. If this mother wanted to protect her boy's innocence she would have left him out of her TV appearance.

@ ashp

Gay men would pretend and hide the fact that they were gay for fear of the consequences. As a consequence, they lied to themselves and their wives to uphold a "normal" family image. Not only does that hurt the gay man, that probably hurts the wife and kids even more.

Good reason not to choose to be gay!

The bottom line is homosexuality exists period.

Just because a behavior among men exist does not make that behavior right. Murder has existed since the beginning of time and it is still not accepted. Drunkeness has been around for a while too, but that does not make it right. Having sex out side of marriage has been around too. But that does not make heteroxexual sex before marriage right.

Marrying/having sex with a women doesn't make you straight. its a matter of attraction and clearly there are people attracted to the same gender.

I do not doubt that the attraction is strong and real. I do not doubt that there is a genuine love there. But that does not make it right any more than sibblings seperated who through some tradgic misfortune find each other and fall in love only to be denied the alter after a blood test. To this day we, as a society, would not allow brother and sister to marry even if they did not grow up together or know each ohter until adult hood.

My heart truely goes out to people who are attracted to the same sex. I know there are reasons why this happens but there are means to overcome it just as there are means to deal with other problems.

Psychologists have conducted experiments on homophobes and 9 times out of 10, the homophobes are
the ones that get more aroused by watching gay porn then the straight non-homophobes.

This really does not prove anything. Depends on the subjects, such as age, last time they had sex, with men the last time they had an ejaculation, etc... This is just more junk science.

And remember, you gay bashers, a lot of you watch "lesbian" porn and get turned on. YOu are nothing but
hypocrites. if you believe being gay is wrong, then NO LESBIAN PORN FOR YOU! ya i bet that hits home and im not necessarily trying to be funny.

Nothing funny about porn. Women are degraded in porn, hetersexual porn, that is and it really is not funny. I don't believe our nation should allow porn either. There were a lot of us that fought that battle too. We lost....but we still teach our children that they should avoid porn.

Not to mention you homophobes are slowly becomming a minority and thank god.

But as homosexuals have said, so say we, "We are not going away!"

finally who cares what YOUR religion states it is just that YOURS. We live in a nation with many different
cultures get over it and evolve.

Finally, this is the crux of the matter. You do not care what God says. Which is your right. But it is also why you reference those Old Testament laws without really understanding them. So, in reality it does not matter to you what the bible says so long as you can remain a homosexual and not feel guilty about being a homosexual. In other words, if the bible would just go away, I would not feel so bad about being a homosexual an no one else would feel bad about being a homosexual and straight people would let us be homosexuals!

The trouble is the bible is here, has been here since the beginning of time and will be here long after we are gone! It is not going away neither is its teaching because the author is eternal and he created all people and he speaks volumes to them about their sexuality. If you are on the wrong side of the choice, then you are not ever going to have any peace unitl you get it right.

On a positive note, the Levites of the Old Testament, at God's instruction, probably thought it best not have sex with a woman who was menstruating because they did not have modern soap or the cleanest of cloths. There may have been a problem with having clean water to wash with as well. So, it was probably more of a health thing than a "Thou Shalt Not" thing. I would liken it much like using a condomn to day to be safe! So, God said just don't do it and you will not have to worry about getting sick.

One thing to remember about the nature of God. He never tells us not to do something because it will benefit him in anyway. It does not hurt God in anyway if we choose to have sex before marrieage or engage in homosexual activity. Sex was given to man for his pleasure. When God says don't do something, he is usually saying don't do ______— so you will not hurt yourself! So true. If only I had listened to Him more often!

switchblade you truly are what is wrong with this country. you obviously missed my points completely. what i have learned in my 24 years of existence is that some people can look facts and reasoning straight in the face and find some sort of reason to deny it. i am so happy that one day your kind will die off because you will get old and die. hopefully you are around that age so it can happen sooner rather than later. but im sure that is a highly anticipated event for you since you will be moving on to the pearly gates in your opinion. You know what my opinion is? my opinion is that people like you will be judged harshly for all the evil you have done and everything you have subjected your fellow man to. Also since when is it wrong to murder? our country does it all the time in the middle east? o i get it war isn't murder right? or is it just that those savages in the middle east don't constitute as human therefore not subject to the idea of murder. haha ok you are nothing but a hypocrite and yes psychology which is my major has shown repeatedly that homophobes are more aroused during gay porn. they tell this by applying a rubber band like structure to the penis and see how much it becomes enlarged as opposed to the flacid state. Since you are so straight, how do you justify ANY arousal from gay porn?if you aren't attracted to men, why would it matter if you hadn't ejaculated in awhile? laughable. that doesn't make any sense, unless perhaps maybe you uhhh.....get that way yourself.... i was raised in a very strict religious household don't tell me i have no knowledge of the bible. i was raised evangelical, went through awanas, bible camps the whole kitten caboodle. YOuknow what i found? a bunch of people sitting in judgement that don't have a clue what they are talking about. people that pick and choose the verses in the bible they feel apply. You tell me how im supposed to literally translate stoning someone on the sabbath to something other than just that. i didn't twist sh**. You do and your kind does. why don't you go volunteer or something that would be more like jesus. You sir are more like a wicked pharasee filled with legalism and criticism.

switchblade-2693948: Oh, come off it. I am so sick of people ignorant of the intent of the Bible that they have to push the words of the Bible. Do you really think that Jesus wanted to have homosexuals killed? Really? A man who wouldn't consider war or strike out in anger even at the point of death?

You don't have a clue.

jesus was a wonderful man who hated the love of money. almost dare to say disliked the rich. jesus healed people, was a minimalist and stopped many from being persecuted by asking who shall throw the first stone? you "christians" should take some notes. your kind facilitates evil folks like the westboro baptist pricks who are an absolute terror group no doubt in my mind. the bible has been written and "god breathed" but then re-written and re-written and re-written and re-written. is it possible that man, not perfect, in fact according to the bible despicable, got a couple words confused during translation or conveniently left out certain things?

@ Monkey@Keyboard

A man who wouldn't consider war or strike out in anger even at the point of death?

Well, except for one small point in John 2:14-17:

And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. And He made a [whip] of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; and to those who were selling athe doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making bMy Father's house a place of business." His adisciples remembered that it was written, "ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME."

I will grant you that it is easy to view Christ as meek an mild. But I guess he forgot to be meek and mild on this day. However, His own people thought he was going to over throw the Roman government but instead he self-sacrificed. That is OK. He will come the second time with a sword and a rod of iron.

You don't have a clue.

OK

what you switchblade fail to realize, is that people like you that are divisive and critical and judgemental are driving people away from your cause of bringing people to christ. Its actually hilariously ironic. Do you actually care about your fellow man? If you did, you would realized that you should love people and accept them for who they are. Instead of arguing until you are blue in the face that other people are wrong, why not try to just shut up and let god sort it out. after all, you cannot change people and pretty soon you won't be able to change public policy on the issue because the polls are showing you guys are losing. How about you try understanding people, not from a microscope perspective of them, from a human perspective. after all, if you guys allowed gays in your church and you adamately believe that it is wrong, then won't they change after experiencing gods love and his conviction of their sin? the bible states clearly to hold judgement until you pull the log from your own eye. until you are blemish free, you cannot judge others, only god can and i prefer it that way. it doesn't keep your kind from your high and mighty pedistool though, because MAN interprets god.

ashp - Gay men would pretend and hide the fact that they were gay for fear of the consequences. As a consequence, they lied to themselves and their wives to uphold a "normal" family image. Not only does that hurt the gay man, that probably hurts the wife and kids even more.

switchblade - Good reason not to choose to be gay!

Nobody chooses to be gay. Being a homosexual is something you are born as. There is no changing or reforming it during your life. Anyone who thinks so is a complete imbecile.

ashp - The bottom line is homosexuality exists period.

switchblade - Just because a behavior among men exist does not make that behavior right. Murder has existed since the beginning of time and it is still not accepted. Drunkeness has been around for a while too, but that does not make it right. Having sex out side of marriage has been around too. But that does not make heteroxexual sex before marriage right.

What makes being a homosexual wrong? It occurs naturally. It is something within. Committing murder and becoming heavily intoxicated are all choices a person makes. They aren't things that we are born with. That's why they are considered 'wrong' and 'bad.' Also, what makes sex before marriage wrong? Nothing. There is nothing that makes sex before marriage wrong.

ashp - Marrying/having sex with a women doesn't make you straight. its a matter of attraction and clearly there are people attracted to the same gender.

switchblade - I do not doubt that the attraction is strong and real. I do not doubt that there is a genuine love there. But that does not make it right any more than sibblings seperated who through some tradgic misfortune find each other and fall in love only to be denied the alter after a blood test. To this day we, as a society, would not allow brother and sister to marry even if they did not grow up together or know each ohter until adult hood.

My heart truely goes out to people who are attracted to the same sex. I know there are reasons why this happens but there are means to overcome it just as there are means to deal with other problems.

What is there to overcome? Nature? Why not just embrace what you are given? Why look down upon those who are different just because they are different? It's people like you that keeps this country circling that almighty drain.

ashp - Psychologists have conducted experiments on homophobes and 9 times out of 10, the homophobes are
the ones that get more aroused by watching gay porn then the straight non-homophobes.

switchblade - This really does not prove anything. Depends on the subjects, such as age, last time they had sex, with men the last time they had an ejaculation, etc... This is just more junk science.

Please tell me you are joking. Really? The last time they had an ejaculation? Unless they just so happened to rub one out a few seconds prior to the study it would have absolutely zero effect. It proves that most homophobes have homosexual tendencies but are too insecure with themselves to express. In turn they suppress their true feelings and attack what bothers them the most.

ashp - finally who cares what YOUR religion states it is just that YOURS. We live in a nation with many different
cultures get over it and evolve.

switchblade - Finally, this is the crux of the matter. You do not care what God says. Which is your right. But it is also why you reference those Old Testament laws without really understanding them. So, in reality it does not matter to you what the bible says so long as you can remain a homosexual and not feel guilty about being a homosexual. In other words, if the bible would just go away, I would not feel so bad about being a homosexual an no one else would feel bad about being a homosexual and straight people would let us be homosexuals!

The trouble is the bible is here, has been here since the beginning of time and will be here long after we are gone! It is not going away neither is its teaching because the author is eternal and he created all people and he speaks volumes to them about their sexuality. If you are on the wrong side of the choice, then you are not ever going to have any peace unitl you get it right.

First off, the bible has not been here since the beginning of time. The bible was written by man millions of years after life had already inhabited this earth. The people that wrote the bible wrote it in their own views. The wrote everything based off of how they saw the world and how things were in the time period they lived in. Just because something is in a book that doesn't make it right. Unless there is definitive evidence of such writings in such book. I mean any book. Not just the bible.

Secondly, people don't feel bad about being a homosexual because of a book. They feel bad about being homosexual because of the religious propaganda that people like you spread. (For the record I am not saying all homosexuals feel bad about a homosexual. I am merely talking about the ones that do.) You talk down about something so natural. Something that happens to all species, not just in the human species.

All in all, you really need to take a good hard look at yourself and really evaluate the kind of person you are. Don't get me wrong, you have the right to do whatever you want (within legal boundaries). I'm just saying do you really want to spend your life looking down upon people that are different. Just let people be who they are and leave them alone.

its also so ironic that you described jesus getting angry in the book of John. this is actually one of my favorite stories about jesus. what was jesus trying to say? he was trashing the temple of the evil pharasees and their wicked ways! what wicked ways you ask? the pharasees constantly tested jesus because they thought it was disgusting that he hung out with sinners and prostitutes and the like. but unlike them, jesus realized these people needed saving most of all. Jesus had it right. he lost it in the temple because he saw greed and hypocricy. wonderful wonderful passage about his character. what was the one thing that angered jesus so much for him to lose it? he didn't even lose it when he was being murdered on the cross! what is it saying about how much he hated people that sat in judgement and acted holy and greedy?! profound! that angered him most because it drove people away. it represented a part of humanity he despised. thats why he lost it. people like you are pharasees. you act like you have a say in morality. god is the only person to judge morality in the end. thank god for that. god knows our hearts he know where we are comming from and he understands us. spread that message instead because that is what god wants most of off from his children.

@ ashp

switchblade you truly are what is wrong with this country. you obviously missed my points completely. what i have learned in my 24 years of existence is that some people can look facts and reasoning straight in the face and find some sort of reason to deny it. i am so happy that one day your kind will die off because you will get old and die. hopefully you are around that age so it can happen sooner rather than later. but im sure that is a highly anticipated event for you since you will be moving on to the pearly gates in your opinion. You know what my opinion is? my opinion is that people like you will be judged harshly for all the evil you have done and everything you have subjected your fellow man to.

OK

Also since when is it wrong to murder? our country does it all the time in the middle east? o i get it war isn't murder right? or is it just that those savages in the middle east don't constitute as human therefore not subject to the idea of murder.

Well, we are going to find out in the Trayvon Martin case that if you come upoin an armed man or nation and you punch them in the nose, you are going to get shot in the chest. We call it justifiable homocide. I don't have a problem with that at all. However, it is still wrong to murder someone. Some states put people to death for killing another for no reason.

i was raised in a very strict religious household don't tell me i have no knowledge of the bible. i was raised evangelical, went through awanas, bible camps the whole kitten caboodle.

I never said you had no knowledge of the bible.

The awana program is a very good program. I am glad you were able to attend. I also am an evangelical. This is a good thing. I am glad you had the exposure even though it might not have been a pleasant experience for you.

You do and your kind does. why don't you go volunteer or something that would be more like jesus. You sir are more like a wicked pharasee filled with legalism and criticism.

OK

I see your second post too about the bible and maybe things have been left out...there are answers for this arguement too but it still requires some faith to believe what is written.

You know, I wish we could sit face to face. I really want to say I understand you and where you are coming from. I have heard simular arguments and issues.

I really don't think you are a bad person. You are no more bad than I am. We as men like to place degree's on wrong doing. In other words, to kill someone out of hate, or to molest a child is the worst kind of wrong man can do and God will punish them the most severily. This is simply not the case because if I steal a bag of jelly beans from the Wal-Mart store (about $1.00) is looked at by God the same as if I killed my neighbor for his car. All of what ever I consider good or good works is nothing but filthy rags in God's eyes.

I really don't feel I am superior to you. In fact, you are smarter than I am. You are younger, therefore you are probably stronger, you are probably better looking too... So, I don't have anything against you.

I just happen to believe that homosexuality is wrong and should not be regarded as an althernative to heterosexuality. I will maintain this believe and speak it as long as I have breath. All I ask is that you do not hate me for this belief.

i just hate hate. and i am a female btw.

and not gay

@ ashp

I am sorry!

Now, being female, that is a surprise!

Obviously, I am male.

I will pray for you and hope you get to feeling better. Take care, and lets talk again!

@ HellsAmbassador

I am sorry...I have got to get some sleep....running on two hours over the last two days...

Check the thread tomorrow. I will answer your questions and post on your comments.

Whatever your views, this is appalling. No child should be punished for their parents' actions.

alternative I just heard about: Spiril Scouts!

But it does have a negative affect. I posted earlier how can one not read this article and not see the negative affects it has?

LOL! so your logic people think homosexuality is wrong because those same people create problems for the homosexual which in turn make it wrong. Nice circular logic. By that token being a Jew was wrong in Nazi Germany.

It is extremely simple, homosexuality is a mistake of nature. It is an evolutionary dead end. Nature intends with all species of animal for the animals to reproduce. Whether it is nature or nurture, homosexuality is not natural in the animal kingdom as far as to the exclusion of reproduction. Explaining to a boy and then all boys and then all girls why two men and two women are living together sexually is depriving a child of its innocence. He/she doesn't need to know all about buggery and female free love at early ages. They will get it soon enough when they were older. A group of young men, 15+ and I were chatting and I gained their confidence and they were soon asking questions about sex, homosexuality and lesbianism and why, how, etc.....that is old enough to tell them what goes on between two gays and two lesbians. It doesn't have to start in the boy scouts.

You do not care what God says.

I don't care what Santa Clause or the tooth fairy says either. In fact I don't car what any fictional character say except when it has entertainment value.

@ HellsAmbassador:

"Nobody chooses to be gay. Being a homosexual is something you are born as. There is no changing or reforming it during your life. Anyone who thinks so is a complete imbecile."

At least 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused as children. Like all children who are molested they internalize the painful event and think it's their fault. I've spoken to many "gay" men who confide something like, " I was born gay, but when I really think about it, the molestation had to have effected my sexual decisions.

An organization called NARTH is one of the few that acknowledge the ramifications of sexual abuse on a child's sexual development. How does child sexual abuse fit into your "cast in stone" notion of "born gay?" Only an imbecile would discount that teaching a child homosexual behavior would have no effect on them as adults. Would you tell those boys they were "born that way?"

@ dictionary:

"A group of young men, 15+ and I were chatting and I gained their confidence and they were soon asking questions about sex, homosexuality and lesbianism and why, how, etc.....that is old enough to tell them what goes on between two gays and two lesbians. It doesn't have to start in the boy scouts."

Agreed. And that's the age we need to talk to kids openly about child sexual abuse.

@ Rev - you wrote

Wow, for a liberal poster you sure sound like a bigot. I once heard Joy Behar call Leonardo DaVinci a "flamer." When questioned about it she responded,"oh yeah they all are." Even liberals can be bigots.

Although my statement may make me sound like like it, I am neither a bigot nor a liberal.

I have had many friends who are gay, but that was not their defining attribute and really never factored into our friendship.

I don't care what choices people make and would not like to have my choices restricted by others. Live and let live.

One Love

If it were the Girl Scouts she was in, I'd be more inclined to see their point, but keep in mind that others could have volunteered,but chose not to. They wanted someone to babysit their kids while they did, God knows what. Many Packs or Troops are church affiliated, and many priests and ministers are gay, but the people don't seem to stop attending. It's not allowed in the eyes of the church, but it keeps happening.

This boy must be devastated, and his fellow Scouts too. All she wanted was her son to have the choices that many boys have, to do his best for God and his country. Depriving him of that, is turning the Scout law into something it is not.

Where did it say in the article that her son had to quit? It would be a shame if she allows her orientation to cause her son to miss out on the experience of being a Scout.

At the the end of the video, the boy was asked if he wanted to go back. That doesn't mean that his Mom and him were both tossed out. She may have taken him out, but even so, a boy his age doesn't understand prejudice like a grownup does. He may have told her that he won't be a scout without her. I would have felt the same way, knowing how bad his mom was treated.

"How many gay men were molested as children?"

And there is the dirty little secret that no one wants to talk about; the correlation between molestation and homosexuality. Many on this thread have posted that homosexuality is genetic, gay people are born that way. There is NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE of that PERIOD! We do know, however, that children raised by homosexual parents have a much higher likelihood of being gay, interesting, but still not conclusive yet.

Bottom line; I don't allow my daughters to go camping with male leaders, why would I allow my son or daughter to go camping with homosexual leaders? If you have children, honestly ask yourself that question, and what if there is a direct corelation between molestation and homosexuality?

The media has got most of you convinced that homosexuals are born that way, without a lick of evidence, because it fits their minority rights montra. How do you think they would react if it was shown that homosexuality was not genetic but overwhelmingly caused by molestation?

Perhaps I'm naive, but if she's gay (or lesbian), and she's dealing with boys, where's the threat? I could understand it if she wanted to be a girl scout leader...

The dogma that homosexuality is not a choice is crucial to the argument for homosexuals being given minority status. If evidence comes forth that homosexuality is caused by past molestations, or if it shown that homosexuality is a choice, the minority status argument is gone. Homosexuality would no more be given minority status than would people who liked black licorice. Homosexual activists will fight facts, science and logic to keep all of us beleiving that homosexuality is genetic.

@ Situation:

" I could see if it was some flaming fashion designer male..."

That kind of language is especially damaging for boys who were molested.

Unfortunately, it is a socially acceptable stereotype that boys are indoctrinated with at a very young age. This is largely due to our educational system enforcing a strict system of machismo through sports. Ever wonder why there's few or no arts programs in public schools. It's because of the tacit approval of bigotry in statements like yours and Behar's.

And we all know male dancers are real "flamers," right? Thanks to that stereotype, American dance companies have to import male dancers. And guess what? The majority are straight as can be, and are having the time of their lives surrounded by ballerinas all day. Meanwhile American boys are taught by their schools to be extremely violent and play football. Nothing like broken bones, concussions, paralysis or even death to make a real man out of you.

By the way, the term "flamer" comes from "flaming faggot," which was the kindling used to start the fires where homosexuals were burned at the stake.

Do you really think designers and artists should be burned at the stake?

So the basic problem people seem to have is that the scouts discriminate? Big deal. Everyone discriminates. The BSA believe in certain things, God among them, and they view the best way to create stable society built with capable and active young men is to follow a biblical path which abhors homosexuality. But even here the scouts don't go full bore. The scouts would allow this boy, AND his mothers, to attend scouting events. They aren't denying their usefullness to society, but they don't find them to be useful as leaders of the same society they want to create. Great!

They are no different than many of the other thousands of private organizations in the USA, each of which looks at just another facet of society and tries to do what it can to influence it. Some go after more of society than others, but all have the same point in mind: They want to change society to their liking, or to keep society from changing away from their liking. Wow, what shock. I mean, to actually think that in a self-governing republic people might want to join up with other like-minded people to effect the kinds of outcomes that would validate their beliefs. Well, you all who oppose the BSA, sure got us there.

I'm an atheist, which means I don't believe in God, but it doesn't mean I can't appreciate the concepts within the various religions which seek to create and perpetuate civil society. Now, here is the conundrum for you leftists or anti-BSA types...Our nation undoubtedly was created with Judeo-Christian values at its core and yet homosexual advocates have been able to advance their cause, so don't you think that the BSA, by trying to create a future society still imbued with Judeo-Christian values, that homosexuals will remain safe in the larger society to live their lives as they would want?

Yep, that's right. The very claim you make, that groups like the BSA prevent you from living as you want, are the very groups that have allowed you to live exactly as you want by creating the very civil society which you now denigrate by demanding that all others support, if not endorse, your personal life choices. This woman knew the rules. She broke the rules. They booted her out. Deal with it.

Rich,

If more atheists, agnostics and Christians (like me) took your attitude into this debate, silly stories like this would only be front page news on radical left wing (or right wing in different contexts) websites. Ooops, I forgot I was on MSNBC. Seriously, a woman crying over not being allowed to be a scout leader is national news?

P.S. Thank you for acknowledging what most left wing athiests deny; our Judaeo-Christian heritage. I really don't see how it can be ignored, but it often is.

Rev

"Meanwhile American boys are taught by their schools to be extremely violent and play football"

I agree with your general point that stereotypes (though often true) are not always helpful. But if you beleive that our society is (or our school system) is in the business of machismoizing young males your not paying attention. If anything, we are actively promoting the feminization of our males.

Our society desperartely needs to mature/mentor our young males into strong, responsible, family protecting noble men. Not macho or feminine. As far as violence goes, men have an innate violent tendency. It can go bad, but someday you may need that violence to protect a family, community or a country.

I don't understand that if this woman and her child had such wonderful experiences witht he scouts, why would she not allow her son to continue to be in the scouts. She acts like her being removed also includes her son. Unless her son has also, "Come out", then she alone has been removed. Why make her child deal with her issues. The scouts welcome her son, just not her lifestyle choice, which they are fully within their rights to do. How about all you liberal, protesting, open society wing nuts have a little respect for an organization that has had the same policies in place since inception. Stop trying to change our policies to fit your twisted lifestyles at the expense of those who understand the policies and rules and follow them. Just because you think that homosexuality is acceptable doesn't mean we all have to and that doesn't make everyone a homophobe, just really uncomfortable with your choices. Why can't you be happy with the gains you have allready made? Why do your demands never seem to stop?. Isn't today's society a long way from the gay bashing days of yore. And yet, you still aren't content. You will never be considered "married" in the truest sense. Your lifestyle will never be truly "accepted". That is a fact. deal with it as we have to deal with your unending protests of un-fairness.

Football is definitely a business and it has taken a heavy toll on the educational process.

You claim, "[i]f anything, we are actively promoting feminization of our males." I believe that's happening because there is no mid-ground, either you're on the team or not, manly man or wimp.

Your comments about men being inherently violent is not true. The absolute most violent abusers of children are mostly female. Would you say mothers are inherently violent? And look at the recent spate of concussion related suicides of former football players. Is it worth the human toll?

Females do however, rate males sexually by their potential for violence, whether mountain goats or cheerleaders. Again, our schools are unique in the world with that brand of sexism.

When you say we need to mentor young males to be strong and responsible I agree. That sounds like the guild system of the Renaissance which produced some of the greatest art and architecture ever made.

Our educational values have become skewed by a private entertainment industry. One that is exempt from anti-trust legislation and has turned our schools into recruiting and training grounds at tax-payer expense.





My previous post was directed to Tod. Also thanks for mentioning my correlation between molestation and homosexuality. That's something the GLADD folks are strangely silent about. So I'll ask again, how many homosexuals were molested as children? Seems like a viable question.

Hell's Ambassador

Your outlook and attitude do not surprise me, you're screen name/moniker says all I need to know about you.

PREJUDICE????? Not wanting my children to around open homosexuals and lesbians is prejudice? Where did that come in? There are a million things children can do besides being influenced by homosexuals and lesbians. Allowing homosexuals and lesbians to associate with children is wrong. Children pick up very quickly querky and unusual behavior. They imitate, ask questions and then start making fun and getting wrong ideas. We don't need abnormal sexually orientated people to be an influence on children. I want children to enjoy their childhood, learn how to be normal people and live a moral, normal decent life that nature intended. There are too many things to teach children about normal society, manners, right from wrong and how to act in polite and correct society than early on the habits, customs and way of living of homosexuals and lesbians. There is time for that later in their lives and that should be the parents decision.

I beg a question. If homosexuality is something you are born with, then why so many women who were married to and had kids with men become lesbians? My guess is that they picked the wrong sort of men and got tired of the crap. You also have the situation where they are not particularly picky about which gender it is, if they find them attractive, they will sleep with them. So if you can be one way for a long period of time and then change, it seems to me that you were not "born that way", as the saying goes, but you made a choice. Choice is a whole different ball of yarn than genetically predisposed at birth. There are exceptions, as in all of nature, there are some specimens that are outside of the criteria that we would think of as "normal" for that species. Somebody enlighten me. By the way, I am not picking on women. My wifes boss had a homosexual affair with a man, but is now trying to work things out with his wife. My question remains the same.

Let's look at a possible conversation of some of the boys in the scout troop. "What does your daddy do? He's a plumber! Another one says his daddy is a salesman! Another says his daddy works in construction! Another says his daddy has a drug store. Finally the last boy says, "I don't have a daddy, I have two mommies!" Now the questions begin! What???? Yep my mommy married another woman and I have two mommies. Of course the child's brain is going to think.....WOW something strange here and then starts the questions........why don't you have a daddy? Why do you have two mommies.....then there could be embarrassing questions, fights, tears, strange looks and then the boys go home and tell their siblings and parents and soon............ And children want to know! Many parents are not going to want to discuss the subject, a lot of wrong ideas, stories are made up, older boys are going to interject ribald comments and the whole mess gets out of control with a lot of strange questions, thoughts, ideas, replies and WOW there are men who live together and what do they do...............

Definitely I rather see my children talking about toys, food, pets, school work, sports and leave this type of conversation for much later in life. I guarantee you that even the homosexuals and lesbians don't know the answers. Scientists still are in disagreement what causes homosexuality and lesbianism and why they act the way they do. How can anyone explain it to a 10 year old? This should not be a concern for children!

@ HellsAmbassador

Nobody chooses to be gay. Being a homosexual is something you are born as. There is no changing or reforming it during your life. Anyone who thinks so is a complete imbecile.

I beg to differe with you. There are people who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle because they felt that it was a choice and they wanted to be free of it. John Paulk is one of them and so is Anne Paulk.

Calling some one an imbecile does not change the fact or make your arguement any stronger. We call it ad hoc.

What makes being a homosexual wrong? It occurs naturally. It is something within. Committing murder and becoming heavily intoxicated are all choices a person makes. They aren't things that we are born with. That's why they are considered 'wrong' and 'bad.' Also, what makes sex before marriage wrong? Nothing. There is nothing that makes sex before marriage wrong.

There are a lot of things that occur naturally: cancer, opium, snake poison, wanting to lie, wanting to steal, wanting to hate. Just becuase it occurs naturally does not make it right.I beg to differ with you about being born with the wanting to commit murder. That is usually not something a parent teaches his child yet, some how, we find a way to do it without being taught.

You say there is notthing wrong with haveing sex beofre marriage. Depends upon your frame of reference. I say we have a lot of STD's in this country and if it were not for a lot of promiscuous sex there would not be the STD problem we have today. Without the religious implication of having sex before marriage there is nothing wrong with it but there is consequences to having sex before marriage and not just illnesses. There is a lot of damage done to the psyche.

What is there to overcome? Nature? Why not just embrace what you are given? Why look down upon those who are different just because they are different?

Again, just because it happens in nature does not make it right. Why not just embrace heroine, or embrace fire, or embrace a rattle snake, etc....

It's people like you that keeps this country circling that almighty drain.

Again, maligning me or people like me does not make your agrument stronger. However, we will not go away as long is there is breath in our lungs and our hearts are beating and we have a voice with which to speak.

Please tell me you are joking. Really? The last time they had an ejaculation? Unless they just so happened to rub one out a few seconds prior to the study it would have absolutely zero effect.

Says who? The point I am trying to make if it has been a couple of weeks where there has not been a release a warm breeze could bring on an arousal. This is probably a weak argument and I probably should not have put it out there.

It proves that most homophobes have homosexual tendencies but are too insecure with themselves to express. In turn they suppress their true feelings and attack what bothers them the most.

Yes, I have read the articles and this is just more JUNK science to try and prove how normal homosexuality really is. It is not normal. And not everyone who stands against homosexuality has latent homosexal desires.

First off, the bible has not been here since the beginning of time.

How would you know? Who says so? Who among us was there when it was written? What is the oldest book in the bible? Just a little clue: it is NOT Genesis.

It amazes me how people who want nothing to do with the bible or it's author become experts in the bible.

The bible was written by man millions of years after life had already inhabited this earth.

This is ok in your view point if you believe in the theory of evolution. I do not believe in an old earth. I believe the earth is only 6 thousand years old. I believe in the creation theory.

Whether one believe in evolution or creationist theory, you still have to accept one or the other on faith becuase we cannot recreate evolution or recreate creation. No one was there to see it happen. So, in the end, it comes down to a matter of do you believe in what God says or are you going to try and believe in some junk sceience?

The wrote everything based off of how they saw the world and how things were in the time period they lived in. Just because something is in a book that doesn't make it right. Unless there is definitive evidence of such writings in such book. I mean any book. Not just the bible.

This just depends upon your reference point on the bible. Not everyone believe the bible is just another book or that it was written by man. Just because you believe that the book was written by man as he saw his surroundings does make that assumtion correct. I have been wrong about beliefs I have held in the past and changed those beliefs. But, I had to come to the place to be willing to admit I was wrong. To admit one is wrong is not a sign of weakness in a man. To admit one is wrong is a sign of strength.

Secondly, people don't feel bad about being a homosexual because of a book. They feel bad about being homosexual because of the religious propaganda that people like you spread.

I am glad they feel guilty. They should feel guilty. The guilt feelings will lead to repentance and a better way of life for those individuals who listen to their conscience.

Again, we will not go away.

You talk down about something so natural. Something that happens to all species, not just in the human species.

Just because a behavior happens does not make it right. Dogs have multiple partners. Not every human believes in having multiple partners. Some spiders eat their mates, no human believes it is right to eat their mate. Pigs will eat there young, no human believes it is right to eat their young. Chickens lay eggs, and humans do not. Etc.....

I'm just saying do you really want to spend your life looking down upon people that are different. Just let people be who they are and leave them alone.

This is the problem I have with most homosexuals. I don't look down on any of them. I have close friends who are homosexuals. And they know how I believe. I accept them as people. I do not accept their lifestyle. In turn, they think I do not accept them because that is who they are. Well, if they believe I am looking down on them becuase I believe what they are doing is wrong, then that is their right to believe. But, I would say they are wrong in those beliefs.

So, by the fact that one would say I am looking down on someone's behavior, with the emphasis on down, it would imply that the person I am looking at is wrong. So, I would say that someone's conscience is speaking to them. Otherwise, why would someone not say I am looking up at homosexuals?

Take care. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this topic.

There are people who have come out of the homosexual lifestyle because they felt that it was a choice and they wanted to be free of it. John Paulk is one of them and so is Anne Paulk.

Some people are born Bisexual, they can make a choice.

@ JOregon

Some people are born Bisexual, they can make a choice.

John and Anne Paulk were not Bixexuals.

Anne Paulk was a lesbian and had never had a relationship with a man until she met John.

John Paulk was known as 'Candy' in the male homosexual call scene. He would not have considered himself to be bisexual.

The homosexual lifestyle is a choice. Homosexuals, bisexuals, or transgenders can leave the lifesytle if they choose to leave it. It is a matter of choice and how bacly they want to leave the lifestyle.

A bisexual can choose to have a relationship with someone of the same sex because both hetro and homo are natural to them.

Just because she had not had a relationship with a man does not mean she was not bisexual. It just means she had not acted upon such a relationship.

Anecdotal examples such as you have given are proof of nothing.

I am 60 years old.

I grew up with twins that were gay and acted very feminine before sex was ever even a thought. Their brother was my friend and he is very straight.

My daughter had a male friend from age 6, it was obvious he was very much gay even at age 6. They are now 24.

@ JOregon

Anecdotal examples such as you have given are proof of nothing.

So, how do know that Anne Paulk was bisexual? Especially if she had not acted on it? I cannot read minds. Same aregument with John.

Just depends on what one is going to believe.

By the way, I am not saying that these attractions to the same sex are not real. I am not saying that they are not strong. I am not saying that there is not a genuine love.But, what I am saying that these feelings, attractions and love for the same sex is wrong and they have a choice on whether to act on them or not.

There are a lot of things that people are predisposed to at birth. Some are liars, some are violent, some are theives, etc...

None of us are born perfect and have issues that go against what society would expect of us. However, we teach our children to behave properly by discipline and instruction. In other words, people are born with bad traits, but we don't give into them. That means there is a choice.

So, how do know that Anne Paulk was bisexual? Especially if she had not acted on it? I cannot read minds. Same aregument with John.

You can't know if she was. Your story is 100% anecdotal and has no substance.

I am not saying that they are not strong. I am not saying that there is not a genuine love.

I know that is not true because I know gay couples in strong loving relationships. As much or even more genuine love than most hetro couples.

...they have a choice on whether to act on them or not.

No they don't not when they are born that way, such as my daughter's friend or the 2 twins I grew up with. A bisexual does have the ability to go one way or another.

Did you wonder what it would be like to be with someone of the same sex? Did you make a choice as to which sex you wanted to be with?

I know I didn't. There was never ever a thought or any curiosity what it would be like to be with another man. I never ever considered the possibility. That is the same way a 100% gay person feels toward someone of the same sex. They never wonder what it might be like to be with someone of the opposite sex.

There is a sliding scale between being 100% gay and being 100% straight.

None of us are born perfect and have issues that go against what society would expect of us.

Absolutely, none of us are born perfect.

I am color blind, I can't choose to not be color blind any more that a gay can choose to be straight.

In other words, people are born with bad traits

Why do you think it is a bad trait? they don't feel it is a bad trait.

The bad trait is not accepting people for who they are and thinking you need to make them into what you think they should be. That is the bad trait.

@ JOregon

You can't know if she was. Your story is 100% anecdotal and has no substance.

Your denial has no substance either. What's your point? I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I say my point has substance because I believe Anne Paulk was not bisexual. She clains to have been homosexual. Same with John. They live in Oregon, you know? I am an aquaintence with John. Your denail is just denial.

I am not saying that they are not strong. I am not saying that there is not a genuine love.

I know that is not true because I know gay couples in strong loving relationships. As much or even more genuine love than most hetro couples.

I believe I have been misinterpreted. I am saying I know these people love each other and that love is very real. However, these feelings of love do not make it right for two of the same sex to live together any more than siblings separated at birth who latter on meet in adulthood and fall in love only to be told they cannot marry after a blood test. In other words, just because it 'feels' good or right does not make it right.

Did you wonder what it would be like to be with someone of the same sex? Did you make a choice as to which sex you wanted to be with?

I have never wondered what it would be like to be with someone of the same sex. But I have wondered what it would be like to be in an orgy. So, because I want to be in an orgy, does that make it right to be in the same bed with multiple partners?

I keep saying, I know these feelings for the same sex are real. I keep saying just because these feelings are present does not make it right to act on these feelings. If I looked at my neighbors wife and she was pretty and I wanted to have sex with her, should I kill her husband so I could have her? My feeling for my neighbor's wife has no bearing on the choice I make to kill her husband or not. In other words, just because I have an attraction to someone of the same sex has no bearing on whether I choose to act on those feelings or not.

Why do you think it is a bad trait? they don't feel it is a bad trait.

The point I was making was we are born with bad traits. I never linked homosexuality with being a bad trait. In other words, I was taken out of context. However, now that you mention it, homosexuality is a bad trait. And, it is not a matter of feelings. People who have sexual feelings for animals don't feel their feelings are bad or that those who act on them do not see their behavior as a bad trait. The movie Zoo portrays these feelings and actions as mamal to mamal love.

The bad trait is not accepting people for who they are and thinking you need to make them into what you think they should be. That is the bad trait.

I accept people for people and created to have relationships. But I will never accept homosexuality is a normal relationship anymore than trying to have a sexual relationship to a horse as normal or to have sexual relationships with children as normal.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I say my point has substance because I believe Anne Paulk was not bisexual.

Maybe I am not clear.

The reason it has no substance is because one person's relationship change does not mean millions could ever do the same. She might never had known she was bi because she believed in her choices.

That may not be real clear either - - when she was in a relationship with another woman perhaps she was so devoted and strong in that relationship that she was convinced she was gay not bi.

Someone that is 100% gay simply cannot be in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. They would feel like you would if you tried to have a relationship with someone of the same sex.

However, these feelings of love do not make it right for two of the same sex to live together any more than siblings separated at birth who latter on meet in adulthood and fall in love only to be told they cannot marry after a blood test. In other words, just because it 'feels' good or right does not make it right.

You do realize the reason siblings can't marry has to do with birth defects caused by inbreeding?

I have never wondered what it would be like to be with someone of the same sex. But I have wondered what it would be like to be in an orgy.

You are confusing what it means to act upon your lust compared to acting upon what feels natural to you. Healthy Gay relationships are not all about sex, any more than a healthy Straight relationship is all about sex. Are there couples that can't get past the sex? Yes, in both cases. The long term ones are more than that.

I never linked homosexuality with being a bad trait. In other words, I was taken out of context.

Actually you did.

In other words, people are born with bad traits, but we don't give into them. That means there is a choice.

Didn't you say gays can make a choice?

feelings, attractions and love for the same sex is wrong and they have a choice on whether to act on them or not.

You connected being born with bad traits to an attraction to someone of the opposite sex.

There are a lot of things that people are predisposed to at birth. Some are liars, some are violent, some are theives, etc...

Why do you think being gay is a bad trait?

Why do you think it is wrong?

I will never accept homosexuality is a normal relationship anymore than trying to have a sexual relationship to a horse as normal or to have sexual relationships with children as normal.

There is a HUGE difference between a consensual relationship and a forced non-consensual relationship.

I take it you feel rape is OK since it is male on female....(sarcasm).

Why do you think the rest of the world needs to abide by your personal ideas of right and wrong when no harm is done to anyone, or anything, in the choice? Control issues?

jOregon, you're awesome!

switchblade-2693948

I can't believe what I'm reading! How you doing Santorum? Nice code name.

Good to see you're back on track with your beastiality remarks. How did it feel to be part of the 1% who voted for your way of thinking?

dictionary72

It's good to know that all children have fathers and mothers except homosexuals. Where have you been keeping yourself? In the closet? Many kids only have one parent and many have only their siblings to raise them. Keeping a child away from scouting because the parent is gay is silly. Hiding your relationships to your children till they are older and past scouting age, makes for some good Dr.Phil shows. Speaking of Dr. Phil, how many shows have a father or mother that abuses or molests their children, some even with the spouses knowledge, that's accepted as long as counseling is a temporary fix, because they are married? People like you need to be on Dr Phil more often to be taught how to live just like the Scout oath teaches. Look up it's interpretation and try to follow it like the liitle scout did. Sheesh!

@ JOregon

First,

She might never had known she was bi because she believed in her choices.

This statement is distorted cognative thinking. The word 'might' is not reality. The fact is She did and no matter anyones take on it they cannot read Anne Paulk's mind or say with authority her intentions.

Secondly,

The reason it has no substance is because one person's relationship change does not mean millions could ever do the same.

While the argument holds some merit, but it does not discount the fact that one did chose to leave the lifestyle; in other words, if one chose changed, it is possible for others to choose to leave the lifestyle. The reason I say the argument holds some merit is because not all will choose to leave the lifestyle or feel they have the choice.

And, just because millions feel they cannot chose does not mean that in reality they do not have a choice. In orther words, the number of people behaving in a certain way is not an indicator of a behavior that is deemed right or wrong. Millions of people are addicted to alcohol. That does not make it right for millions of people to go on a 3 year 'bender.'

There were more people who did not want homosexual marriage in California than who wanted homosexual marriage. That did not stop homosexuals for saying they were not given civil rights.

Numbers do not make an action right.

That may not be real clear either - - when she was in a relationship with another woman perhaps she was so devoted and strong in that relationship that she was convinced she was gay not bi.

Again, you have no authority to presupose anything. The word 'perhaps' is distorted cognative thinking.

Someone that is 100% gay simply cannot be in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. They would feel like you would if you tried to have a relationship with someone of the same sex.

I keep saying that 'feelings' and emotions have no place in this argument. It makes no difference what they might feel anymore than it does not make it less a crime if a 41 year old male (Christopher Hooker) grooms a seveteen year old girl (Jordan Powers) in one his classes that he teaches in high school.

You do realize the reason siblings can't marry has to do with birth defects caused by inbreeding?

Of course I understand the reasoning behind why we don't alow sibblings to marry. But their are documented cases of siblings who were taken apart at birth who latter found each other in adulthood and wanted to marry. Do you think these people loved each other? Do you think it was painful to find out the truth? Do you think some of them went ahead and married anyway? What if they decided to have a vasectomy or tubal ligation? What if the government required a vasectomy or tubal ligation before issuing a marriage license to a sibling pair? Is that going to make it right?

Why do you think being gay is a bad trait?
Why do you think it is wrong?

The first and foremost is because God created Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve. Of course you know that my premise has to be a religious one.

Secondly, The lifestyle brings on a host side affects such as illnesses, and problems with society such as this debate and bigger debates such as homosexuals in the military. To me the big issue is the indoctrination of our children. I believe an a young earth. I believe man walked with dinosaurs. My kids (in college now) still have to face professors who teach the earth is over 230 million years old, based on a theory, when the creationist theory says it is only 6 thousand years old. When they callenge professor or teacher, they receive low marks. Further, when they were young, they came home all confused because I would teach them the bible account of creation and they would learn at school the bible is myth and not true. Now they really are faced with a dilemma: if my teachers is lying to me about life, what else are they lieing about?

The same will be said about homosexuality. They are already teaching homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle in pre-schools, grade schools, and higher education. As in this article, the child is the pawn in the mother's homosexuality.

No, my friend, homosexuality is best left in the closet for the benefit of society. I say to them, if you choose to live the homosexual lifestyle and you do not want to leave it (there is help if you want to leave it) then live it. Be together and do what ever it is that you want to do, but don't force me to accept your way of life. I will never accept your way of life.

(Off topic for a short time) Wow where's sally or mike when they're needed. They're missing a hay-day. (back on topic) The fact that people still have a problem with homosexuality just shows that people are stupid.

No, my friend, homosexuallity is best left in the closet for the benefit of society.

Please just shut up before the entire gay community has killed you. You have f*cked up royally with that comment blade.

What was it Mark Twain said, "There are three kind of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics"? Well since homosexuals make up a small part of the population (about 5%?) and account for 33% of child molestation crimes, there appears to be legitimate concern.

Where did you get these false statistics? I'd love to see the website.

How can anyone explain it to a 10 year old?

I'll have a hard enough time answering the "Where's mommy?" questions from my daughter. So please don't make it to where I have explain why daddy dates both men and women.

This statement is distorted cognative thinking. The word 'might' is not reality.

No, it is reality because it is very possible she was Bi and never knew it. That is the problem when you try to prove a point from one example that may or may not be tainted.

While the argument holds some merit, but it does not discount the fact that one did chose to leave the lifestyle; in other words, if one chose changed, it is possible for others to choose to leave the lifestyle.

That is the reason why we can be fairly certain she was Bi not Gay. If you truly understood that a Gay person can no more change what they are than you could change from being Straight.

I think where you get confused is because you think it is a sexual act that defines Gay or Straight. It is not the sex that defines a gay person it is the orientation. I mentioned my daughter had a male friend since age 6 that was gay. At 6 years of age there was no sex, or thoughts of sex, going on in this child's mind. I know the parents, this was the only child between the two of them but there were several Straight half brothers and sisters. At age 6 this young boy was obviously oriented toward being a female. There was no question about his Gayness. No sex involved.

My daughter broke off the friendship not because he was Gay, but because he became involved with drugs. That is a real problem with Gays. Drugs are an escape mechanism, they don't want to be Gay then a bunch of self righteous people come along telling them they are wicked and ...well drugs help them escape. Most, perhaps all, would prefer to be straight. So they deal with the pain the best they can...they can't change because they are ORIENTED Gay.

Millions of people are addicted to alcohol. That does not make it right for millions of people to go on a 3 year 'bender.'

People aren't born alcoholics. They first have to drink then they can become alcoholics. People are born Gay.

I keep saying that 'feelings' and emotions have no place in this argument.

In the context that I used it does.

Someone that is 100% gay would be just as able as someone that is 100% straight in having a relationship with someone that was the opposite of their orientation.

That seems to be a more confusing way of saying it, but did that clarify what I was saying?

The first and foremost is because God created Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve.

Adam and Eve were created without sin, they were perfect. When they sinned they were separated from God. You have probably heard the term "Spiritually Dead". Man was created with a Physical body and a Spiritual body. When someone becomes "Born Again" their Spiritual body is resurrected from the dead. When Christ returns our Physical body is resurrected. (This is relevant, though I'm not sure if I will spend the time explaining - - it is getting late. Not sure where I am going with this at this moment.) A&E weren't colorblind either. A whole host of diversions hit man's gene-pool when they sinned. We can't change those traits.

Secondly, The lifestyle brings on a host side affects such as illnesses, and problems with society such as this debate and bigger debates such as homosexuals in the military.

There are illnesses in all mankind Gay or Straight. No real difference. HIV is also a straight disease. There should be no debate in our military, there only is because people like you hate Gays.

My son is military in a command position, he doesn't see a problem.

To me the big issue is the indoctrination of our children.

You can't indoctrinate a child to be Gay. You are either born that way or you are not. You can indoctrinate them to hate gays.

I believe an a young earth. I believe man walked with dinosaurs. My kids (in college now) still have to face professors who teach the earth is over 230 million years old, based on a theory, when the creationist theory says it is only 6 thousand years old.

I have no problem with creationism, I have debated for creationism myself. It is not necessary to tie it to a 6,000 year old earth.

Bishop Ussher's 6,000 year timeline simply is not workable. He dates the flood at 2349-2348 BC. Thanks to the Egyptians, Mayans, Assyrians, Chinese, and other ancient peoples we have a very accurate written historical record that goes back 5,000 years.

His is not the only bible based timeline. Harold Camping has also done a timeline based 100% on the bible that places the creation of earth at 11,013 BC. Of course Mr Camping also has credibility issues having missed the end of time 3 times. All were based somewhat on his dating system. Still his system is at least plausible, Ussher's is not.

I don't think we have enough information to date the earth with the bible, nor do I think it is necessary.

I am a Christian. I am deeply disturbed by the many Christian hypocrites, and the many Christians that don't reflect Christ in their teachings.

Most churches that oppose Homosexuality in the secular world joyfully attempt to put God's blessing on adultery. -- Let That Sink In--

They are quick to judge Gays, that aren't even Christians, but then will marry someone that has divorced their spouse and is marrying someone else.

The bible is absolutely clear on this:

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

To stand against gays and bless adultery is hypocrisy. Jesus was the hardest on the hypocrites.

The great commission is:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The word “gospel” means “good news”.

The Gospel is not to run around pointing out the sins of those in the secular world. I wish people would look at their hand when they are pointing so they would see those other 3 fingers are pointing right back at them.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The Good News (Gospel) is deliverance from sin. Both the penalty of eternal death and the grip of sin in life. The Gospel isn't that you are a sinner.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We are commanded not to judge.

Matthew 7:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

What you see in many churches is a message of judging those in the secular world, yet in their own church they celebrate sin.

They want to condemn someone who is born gay and they bless adultery. Adultery is a choice. Being Gay is not.

When we represent Christ we don't need to point out individual sins. We just need to point out that there is salvation from the payment required of sin. We all know we sin, we may not be in agreement with what those sins are. It is God's job to convict the sinner of their sins. Too many Christians are trying to micromanage for God.

Trust in him. If someone becomes saved God will work on their heart and turn them from their sins - - which may also be what happened to your example; Anne Paulk.

As a Christian I am responsible for my own actions.

I am told to correct my fellow Christians when they are astray.

I am not to pass judgement on the secular world.

Remember that A&E blurb? When someone becomes saved THEN it becomes their desire to live in obedience to God. The reason why is they have a resurrected spiritual body. God now lives within them. Their body has become the temple of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

That is what causes the change, not you pointing your finger.

It is late and way past my bedtime hope I didn't ramble too much.

@ TheWhiteJudge

No, my friend, homosexuallity is best left in the closet for the benefit of society.

Please just shut up before the entire gay community has killed you. You have f*cked up royally with that comment blade.

I have just as much right to write what I wrote as what you wrote:

The fact that people still have a problem with homosexuality just shows that people are stupid.

AND, I am not too worried about the 'entiere gay community' killing me. I do not think the 'gay community' has killing in them since they are so against wars and murder and all.

Why as people do we need to define people as Gay or Straight or Bisexual? Why cant we just love who we love? It is pushed in this country to love someone for who they are, not what they look like. This makes ALL defining therefore invalid, for it shouldnt matter if you are a male or female, because that is what you look like, not who you are.

Keep marriage between 2 people. Who cares who you love, and it shouldnt matter to anyone. No one is "born gay" or "born straight." I have liked guys in the past...and I have also liked girls. I struggled with who I am, and who SHOULD i love....nonono this is all wrong. We are in a society now that no longer needs to restrict love to just men and women. We need to realize this and stop trying to say we only love a "particular type of person."

To all those religious anti-gay activists and to the gay activists who think people are born gay, I say you are both wrong and need to stop shoving things down peoples throat, for what you say just confuses people (like me for awhile, for I have liked both men and women).

What's really going on is the beginning of a new way of thought, of a day where anyone can love anyone, no matter their looks or gender.

No one is born gay or straight. We are just born, and as people, we love people.

People love people is the point here. Quit trying to define this and just let it happen....

JOregon

Absolutely, none of us are born perfect.

I am color blind, I can't choose to not be color blind any more that a gay can choose to be straight.

Big difference between being color blind due to gene , but being gay is not from some gene or dna. Gays do and have to choose to turn from the lifestyle and become married to opposite sex , have kids, and have wonderful lives. Im not saying all gays are capable of doing this, but it is done. Perhaps some people just have more will power to choose what they want in life.

Kyle

You were born Bi.

Most people are born Straight. Some people are born Gay. There is a sliding scale full of all sorts of people, such as yourself, that like both. Those that are Bi may have a preference toward one or the other that is why I say it is a sliding scale.

We really should just accept people for what they are. Nobody should have someone else's personal beliefs forcing them to live outside what is natural to them when there is no harm in such a relationship.

Reminds me of Sharia Law being forced upon people.

Perhaps some people just have more will power to choose what they want in life.

And what if what they want in life is to marry someone of the same sex?

Damon

People are born Gay. The genetic link is very possible;

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene

When I was growing up one of my best friends had twin brothers. We always thought they were kind of weird and didn't play with them. They didn't like fishing, sports, wrestling, cars, you know boy stuff. Things 6 year old's do.

Some 30 years later one of the mothers in the neighborhood ran into one of the twins - Both were gay. My old friend, their brother, is Straight. Maybe it isn't due to genes but something they were born with made them that way.

If you are born Bisexual you can choose to go one way or another. Why do they need to choose straight? Why do they need to follow your definition of "right behavior"?

AND, I am not too worried about the 'entiere gay community' killing me. I do not think the 'gay community' has killing in them since they are so against wars and murder and all.

Now that's biased. The gay community does have some murderers within us. And I wasn't trying to supress your right of speech. Just giving a little useful information.

@ TheWhiteJudge

Just giving a little useful information.

I find this statement very interesting in light of your previous statement:

Please just shut up before the entire gay community has killed you.

For a community that is so against 'bullying', this is a pretty 'bullying' statement: 'Shut up or be killed.' Hmmmm...... This was an after thought of my previous post in response to your first post.

However, I appreciate the information, but I don't think I will "shut up" about matter.

My further resolve comes on the mention of Santorum(n). I had to dig a little but Dan Savage makes it clear to me that I definitely need to speak up. Thanks again for the post.

As the father of four sons, I had many,many years as a Scout leader....I could not have been a scout leader though, for my only daughter, but did go to many,many meetings, camp-outs etc. for my daughter...there were a couple of Gay women involved, women who loved their daughters, who wanted to participate in the lives and experience of their daughters when the girls were still young enough to WANT mommie around, girls who had NO idea what being Gay, or straight meant...the girls simply relished having their Moms at meetings, and would have felt "Different" if their Moms were not allowed into meetings.

Could there be anything more cruel than to deny a little girl, the presence and participation of a loving Mom ? ?

There was a bad year when I was the Cubmaster, getting volunteer Moms and Dads was always difficult, folks had lots of excuses why they could not volunteer.....I had a boy that year in my Den, whose Mom was single ( and straight), but her life was overwhelming her, and she rarely made it to the Pack Meetings each month...the boy was a good kid,but had no parental participation or support...we made things at Den meetings for the boys to take back home,with pride...this boys well intentioned,but not mentally "present" Mom, rarely acknowledged the work which her son made for her...the boy often showed sadness over this, and was teased by other boys when his Mom didn't assist him...it was already hard for him as his Dad had disappeared from his life....It hurts to imagine the pain that the boy and Mom in this story are going through,,the Boy, now, has been excluded,he will see his old Den members at school with their uniforms, and hear them bursting with pride about what they have done,seen or participated in....this is cruelty by the BSA.

In my last year of scouting,I began asking for volunteers to help out and tried to make plans for my succession as my youngest son was older and moving on and out of Scouts.......There were NO volunteers who answered my call to succeed me as Scoutmaster...NO volunteers, that is,of quality...the few men who talked with me, were a bit on the shady side...when I asked them to sign a release for a CORI check, my concerns were proven,as they disappeared.....

At the end of the year there was nobody able and willing....to become the new Scoutmaster and my board of directors pleaded with me to stay on, even though I no longer had a son in Scouting...reluctantly I did so, after getting promises that they would help recruit new male leaders......

Three months into the new school year, they found a man who could pass a CORI check ( no criminal record), and,though he looked gnarly to me, I passed the leadership reins to him and "retired" from Scouting.....within 3 or 4 months, there was a drug raid on his home,he was arrested,went to jail, the Scout Pack ( Boy and Cub Scouts) just evaporated......

This is a bit off track from the sad tale in the news, but,I can state, that this little boy has been done an egregious wrong, a very painful lesson in life, an unforgettable injury to his psyche...and the reason was to PUNISH his Mommie.......I WILL NEVER AGAIN DONATE MONEY TO THE SCOUTING MOVEMENT.

...AND, JESUS...who was he,really ? He was Jewish, probably dark skinned with black/dark brown long hair, he NEVER did get married....., and he hanged around with lots of unmarried MEN....He was 33 and UNmarried when he died.....what kind of a man is unmarried at 33, who spends his days and nights with unmarried MEN ?

The term "gay" is NOT gender-specific. "Gay" (as well as "homosexual") can and is male OR female. Although in recent years I've seen the phrase "Gays and Lesbians" used MUCH more frequently, and I don't know why this trend started or exists. Ask a lesbian if she's a gay woman, and the answer will pretty much ALWAYS be "Yes." It is straights who seem to be bending the language for reasons only they know. Very odd.

Because the word 'dyke' is considered derogatory. Even though the word 'gay' comes from the term "grey fox" which was a term for homosexual prostitutes who worked the docks in New Orleans at the turn of the last century. For short they were called "greys" which morphed into gays.

Stright: adopted and popular slang for heterosexual.

Gay: adopted and popular slang for homosexual, used mainly in reference to men.

Homosexual: the proper term.

I don't call a penis a weewee, or a vagina a vajayjay. "Gay" means happy.

The term 'lesbian' is a much more recent phenomenon. It relates to the poet Sappho c620-c565 B.C. from the island of Lesbos in Greece. Supposedly she wrote love sonnets to both men and women. Just prior to the turn of the last century, sapphist was the term for a homosexual women. Only recently was the term lesbian substituted for sapphist, much to the dismay of the good people of Lesbos. They even sued a lesbian organization not to use the word during recent Olympics as they felt it was disparaging to the current citizens of Lesbos.

leroy2122 does this help

dictionary.reference.com/browse/gay

homosexual

@Meghan Herr:

""Gay" means happy."

You mean it used to mean happy, bright, festive, as in the stop by the Flintstones in Bedrock and "have a gay old time."

Nowadays they have to change the words to traditional Christmas songs because the kids can't make it through the line "don we now our gay apparel" without snickering.

Nothing gay about it, that's just sad.

The amount of homophobia on NV is incredible. Jeez. My wife, the PhD psychologist would comment that it shows how insecure people are with their sexuality, especially men. Homophobia doesn't say any thing about them. It only says they you are wrestling with your own sense of sexuality and self-value. Gay-bashing is just a form of psychological self-flagelation. Get over it.

Plato advised his students to always be nice to everyone they met. Why, because every one of them is fighting the same internal struggles that you are. A lot of people havn't learned much since then.

Hey Chris, everyone is waiting for your 'breaking information' (some of it less than five hours old no less!) in the Shaima Alawadi murder case. Do come back and fill us all in on the inside information you have. Thanks!

Chris: What does your wife have to say about the psychological community historically not dealing with boys who were sexually abused as children? What outreach programs does she currently recommend for such boys?

I don't call a penis a weewee, or a vagina a vajayjay.

Check this out: http://www.spinner.com/2010/06/09/gay-songs-coming-out/

Gay coming out songs:

'You've Got to Hide Your Love Away,' The Beatles

'I'm in Love With My Car,' Queen

'In the Navy,' The Village People

'Philadelphia Freedom,' Elton John

Now, the last one I don't get.

The Beatles song is about broken love. "Philadelphia Freedom" was written for the American bicentennial.

Here is a clarification for those asserting the Boy Scouts of America are receiving federal funding.

Receiving a "donation" from a federal, state, county, or city government entity, group, or organization is not nor ever will be considered as being federally funded.

Federal funding and the receiving of designated federal funds requires an act of congress and a designated line item in the federal budget.

Get a life people a duck is a duck and not a goose, learn the difference or keep your mouth shut to avoid the appearance of being an idiot.

Definition of phobia

pho·bi·a

noun
a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

Homophobia is a ridiculous word for a ridiculous agenda by a ridiculously small percentage of the population. I am not in fear of you or your chosen lifestyle. I do not agree with it because it goes against the natural order of the universe, nature, and pro-creation and the anatomy parts do not fit or even go together. When the LGBT community stops using hyperbole, scare tactics, and moronic words to further their search and demand for "equal rights" then and only then will I take you seriously. Until the whining cry-babies buck up and act like real people instead of poor me pity party revelers I will continue to ignore you, you know just like I do other idiotic organizations like PETA.

Hey Chris you do know what PhD stands for right? Most don't so I'll elaborate...

PhD = Piled high and Deep

Doesn't mean this person is smarter than others, just means they're more full of it than others.

Did you look at her pix?. I can understand the confusion.

Sick of the Situation

Wow! I can't believe how many anti-gay posts are on this liberal board.

Why is everyone so concerned with her sexuality if she doesn't openly flaunt it.

But that is truly part of the problem, we heteros who are forced to listen to gays openly flaunting their lifestyle in public are equally offended and repulsed. The fake 'campy' dialect that is a deliberately forced speech style is like them wearing a neon sign saying 'i'm gay and i'm going to flaunt it, i don't care what offends you, I will do as i please any time anywhere i want' and we have to suck it up and not say anything because if we do then we are 'homophobes', ya right! If you are gay, keep it to yourself just like everyone else has to, we don't want to know what you do!

As far as this article goes, good for the Boy Scouts, if the gays want their own scouting organization, let them form their own, the Gay Scouts, and they can have all the fun they want but leave the rest of the world out of the gay lifestyle because we don't want that lifestyle around our kids. This is also not an appropriate topic for children either, influencing children in such a way creates confusion and even more abberant people. Being gay may seem 'normal' and 'ok' for gays, because they practice homosexuality, but it in fact is not 'normal' at all, it is abberant and abnormal for the majority of people in this world.

Oh and you gays, my simply voicing my disagreement with your lifestyle by no means constitutes 'bigotry' or 'homophobia'.

Keep your sexual desires to yourself, like everyone else has to, thank you!

@Phil

It's not just the liberals against gays you know.

ya right! If you are gay, keep it to yourself just like everyone else has to, we don't want to know what you do!

As far as this article goes, good for the Boy Scouts, if the gays want their own scouting organization, let them form their own, the Gay Scouts, and they can have all the fun they want but leave the rest of the world out of the gay lifestyle because we don't want that lifestyle around our kids.

Ahhhhh what's wrong little republican? Scared that your kids will learn to embrace other cultures.

Keep your sexual desires to yourself, like everyone else has to, thank you!

Then keep your opinions to your self like you all force the gays to do.

I'm a gay 40 year old in Los Angeles. I can assure you that gay men discriminate (or, as they call it, exercise their "preferences") all the time. It's hypocritical for gay men to try and outlaw people who don't like them or want them around, but at the same time be racist and ageist.

I think disgusting is a little strong. I didn't know moms were allowed to join let alone lesbians.

Take the kid to Girl Scouts then. Private Orgs have their own rights how to run their programs. I'm white, do you think I could apply to get a black college fund? I'm not Muslim, you think I could go and join them and not have to accept their faith and be allowed to eat pork in their mosques?

Start your own Boy Scouts and do what you want.

Why should Boy Scouts be tolerant of gays? Why can't gays be tolerant of Boy Scouts and their rules? Its a two way street. Boy Scouts have been around longer than open gays.

Why is it disgusting that they will not allow her to be a roll model to little children? Her lifestyle is what ic disgusting.

@Looking Forward: I agree with you the most, to my own surprise.

I really don't agree with the discrimination of gays, but the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America are a private organizations and entitled to their own rules and guidelines.

@Dr Knowitall: It's no different from a heterosexual relationship. Just two moms. What's disgusting? It's not like they live in filth or sacrifice animals or something.

The Boy Scout of America are a private organization and as such can determine their membership standards. She signed the application agreeing to abide by those standards so I guess she lied or was just trying to get away with not abiding by those standards.

There are many organizations that have membership standards that pre-clude me from joining but I don't feel compelled to lie or hide any information to try an gain membership - that would be just plain wrong.

You really missed the point there being tolerant is understanding and accepting each others difference without necessarily having to like it. The Boy Scouts is teaching this boy the wrong lesson. The excuse for the ban being they don't want to have to teach them about homosexuality is a cop out.

The Boy Scouts may be non profit and perhaps have a right to do this but they should think about the overall message they are sending to the boys who belong to their association.

It is NOT a "lifestyle", bonehead. That's what narrow-minded Republicans like to call it, because their subliminal message is "We know all, and homosexuality is a CHOICE, not a genetically-determined sexual-orientation." A "lifestyle" is something you choose......like choosing to live in the suburbs instead of downtown in the city. Sexual orientation is not a "lifestyle." Wake up. It is OFFENSIVE to call it a "lifestyle." Oh....and YOU are disgusting with your publically-displayed bigotry.

Bob62 imagine her deciding to form a loving family and provide her den with great activities. As for growing up an outsider, you would be surprised how many people don't care and are not worried about a kids with gay moms or dads. Sure some mind but hey who is about to make friends with people who don't like them.

To quote a comment I read made towards the scouts: Bigotry does not 'develop character' and is not a 'leadership skill.'

She is being kicked out of a leadership role. Her child is not being kicked out of cub scouts for having a "gay" mother. The boy could still attend. It is completely her choice to not let her son attend cub scouts.

Ive hear so many people respond "how dare the Boy scouts reject someone simply because of their sexual orientation?" So what if their orientation were necrophilia or pedophile? What say you then o liberal of liberals? WHY should a NOT for Profit organization have to allow anything that goes against their founded and documented beliefs of which they’ve stood by for over 100 years? They say full well that they dont allow certain behaviors and types in the organization.. Im so tired of Gays and their screaming that we should accept their deviant behavior, Girls saying they should be allowed to be Scouts ect ect ect.. It seem That everyone one can keep to themselves if they want too.. except if they are normal God Fearing human beings..

@ Jerry

The bible also condones slavery in Leviticus.... are you saying its okay to own slaves because the bible is always right?

Boys scouts of America is a private organization not funded by our government... there not required to practice equality... but at the same time people have every right to be offended and mount protest to try to provoke change.

Call it bigotry, some call it taking a fixed and unmovable position from their values, which include keeping the innocence of childhood intact for as long as possible. Gay people, own up to what you do, which is lead the youth in the circle of your life by example. It doesn't matter if you're discussing sexual orientation or not, I'd refuse to let my child, boy or girl, be part of an establishment that chooses to be wishy washy over a controversial issue, just to make some gay folks feel better about themselves.

DGAj

Actually the issue is do to with the children of gay men and women who have to explain to their children why the scouts wont let their mom and dad help.

And honestly are you that ignorant to think you become gay by example. I mean really, you still believe that? You do know that children of gay parents are no more likely to be gay than those of straight parents?

Leviticus, Old testament, Romans 26-32, I Timothy 1-10, New testament, Gospel of Christ, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, The Law -Ten Commandments. Might want to look it up.

If Boy Scouts of America truly standing for their morals here she would of never been permitted in the first place.... she let them know she was gay seeking approval knowing what the policy was and they let her in anyway saying it wouldn't be a problem locally. She was kicked because she was about to blow the whistle on some shady finances.

This whole "Boy Scouts are just standing their ground on their morals" is a bigots delusion... gay is not a contagious disease being around gay people doesn't make you gay... live the way you live and let other people be.

The have the right but that doesn't mean it is right.

The point is that 8 year olds are being forced to learn about homosexuality and the Scouts feel that their

organization is not the place for boys to learn about this. I don't have a problem with gays, but they need to realize that the whole world does not have to change for them. In Japan, there is a saying:

The nail that sticks up will get hammered down. In other words, one must march in step with the rest of society, society does not have to change for you. The Scouts, as an organization made a choice to forgo Federal funds, so they can decide to exclude certain members of the population who don't meet their moral standards.

@Jerry Actually we do "shove it in people's faces" (using the same methods of most uncloseted gay people), you just don't notice it because straight people do it constantly. Go outside and count how many straight couples are eating dinner together, going to the theater together, holding hands, cuddling, hugging, etc. I bet that number is going to get pretty high, pretty fast, especially if you're near a lot of teenagers.

@DGAj - When I was little, I never knew what the word "homosexual" meant. I knew that there were boys who liked boys and girls who liked girls. Nobody had to explain it to me, nobody even talked to me about it. I don't know how many gay people I was ever around when I was little because I didn't really care and I doubt I would have noticed anyways. I was, however, incredibly confused when I learned that two same-sex people couldn't get married. I'm still straight. A lot of my friends with "two moms" or "two dads" or other influence of gay parents are straight, well adjusted, nice, smart, loving people. A lot of the people I know with "normal" parents are gay, well adjusted, nice, smart, loving people. It doesn't matter. And it doesn't require any explanation, unless you are really trying to teach your children to hate.

I am a Scouter and I do know some gay people that would make great leaders. I also do not have a real problem with gays as leaders as long as they never discuss their lifestyles around the scouts. It is equally inappropriate for heterosexuals to discuss their behind closed door activities around the scouts. This becomes a youth protection issue when sexual information about leaders is discussed regardless of sexual orientation. This is the only moral issue I have with this.

Sherian Palmer

You might want to look up other sections of the bible which tell you should kill your children for cursing at you. Quoting the bible does not help your argument. It is full of so many strange rules and laws. Tell us why you pick and chose the laws you follow and how you decide which to ignore.

The bible is a guide book not and instruction manual.

I am 82 years old and have worked close to 40 years with the Boy Scouts....thru all four of my sons. I firmly agree with the current policy.

@ MIXEDPIE. When I was little I didn't know that boys liked boys and girls liked girls. I grew up in CT. probably the most Liberal state in the country. We as kids didn't think about these things. We were too busy having fun and being kids. Playing outside, with our friends and makinf toys and just living. We didn't want to know about adult stuff. We never watched the news or cared about things that were beyond our comprehension. We were allowed to be kids. We were never confused about sexuality because it wasn't even on our radar. But now everything is a fight, a cause, a lawsuit. Parading the kids into adult causes because they can get away with it. Back in the 70's and 80's this stuff never happened. Beacause parents tried hard to protect their kids from adult problems. Let kids be kids. I never actually knew a gay person until I was 19 years old. Now they have the gay/straight alliance in 6th grade. WTF? I am sorry teaching a bunch of 10 year olds about sexuality is just not right. They do not have the mental capacity to understand the concept. As far as lifestyle is concerned I may have to agree. But Sexuality is a behavior, and ALL behavior is learned. Lying is a behavior, honesty is a behavior, Morality is a behavior. We are not genetically ingrained with these traits, we learn them, or they are taught to us. So how is sexuality any different?

Ken you are wrong,

Sex is a behavior, sexuality is a trait.

Jerry Dedmon - you asked the following:

Why do homosexuals find it so important to tell everyone they are gay? Do you see desent hetrosexuals runnining around yelling i'm hetro i'm hetrosexual?

If you wear a wedding ring, in all likelihood you're running around "yelling" that you're heterosexual. Ever consider that?

Jerry Dedmon

I had to ask actually yes I do see examples and images heterosexuals running around showing their heterosexuality.

Ever been to a bar with a bunch of guys pointing to the women they think are attractive. Or a Man and a woman holding hands hugging or kissing in public. Marriage proposals in news papers, wedding cars, wedding processions, heterosexuals holding hands across a table. Straight couples depicted in Movies, television, magazines, books, insurance company ads, car ads, gardening ads, DYI programs, TV shows showing couples buying houses, photography stores with family pictures in the windows. . . . .etc etc etc

Pokey,

Let's start with the fact that pedo's and necrophiliacs are breaking laws doing what they do; homosexuals do not. Both the a fore mentioned sexual deviants are just that, they prey on the newly bread and the newly dead. Homosexuality is hardly a deviant act unless you one of those kinds of "Christians". You need to learn to separate what is illegal from what is personal preference/orientation. The fact that someone is homosexual does not make them a bad role model by default. you need to stop living inside of a 700 year old book and get out into the real world and take of the Jesus blinders.

@Ken, then why do you imply that you have to involve children in sexual discussions? If you didn't hear about gay people, then fine. That's OK. I never had to hear about gay people, or see them, to know that there's nothing wrong with it. I agree that we should just let kids be kids and allow them to live without talking to them about sexual matters, but you don't need to talk to them, at all, about sex. A gay person doesn't look any different than a straight person, and worst comes to worst you might have to say "some girls like girls, just like other girls like boys". Nobody has to involve the finer details of lesbian intercourse and sex toys. If your kid had a teacher, and that teacher was straight and had a picture of her husband on a desk and a ring on her finger, how is that any different from a teacher with a picture of her wife on her desk and a ring on her finger? Nobody is talking about sex.

As for the GSA in 6th grade, if it's in an elementary school, I can maybe see an issue, though around here sex ed lessons start in 5th grade, so it's not that strange. If it's in a middle school, then what's the issue? Around age 12-14 is when a lot of kids start discovering their sexuality (not HAVING SEX, but knowing who they "like"), and fostering healthy relationships early between people of different sexualities isn't a bad thing. Everyone is different.

As for sexuality being a learned behavior, show me a verifiable study that actually says that, and has been backed up (so no fringe biased Christian groups trying to show how bad homosexuals are). I know plenty of gay people and plenty of straight people. The gay people I know came from straight parents, some of the straight people I know came from gay parents. All are well adjusted, and many do not have the same sexuality as parents. There is some talk that being gay may be affected by maternal stress or birth order, and there is also the possibility (which is actually rather likely) that homosexuality may be an adaptive behavior. But it is certainly not learned. Sex is like walking, breathing, eating. Do you think you could learn to only be attracted to men, marry a man, and have a happy, healthy, sexual relationship with a man; just the same as you could a woman?

Oh damn here we go again....TrixieDixie....can you please provide the scientifically and/or medically widely accepted and research proven, evidence, documentation or what have you in respect to your statement ...

It is NOT a "lifestyle", bonehead. That's what narrow-minded Republicans like to call it, because their subliminal message is "We know all, and homosexuality is a CHOICE, not a genetically-determined sexual-orientation." A "lifestyle" is something you choose......like choosing to live in the suburbs instead of downtown in the city. Sexual orientation is not a "lifestyle." Wake up. It is OFFENSIVE to call it a "lifestyle." Oh....and YOU are disgusting with your publically-displayed bigotry.

There isn't any so don't waste your time, bigotry is a 2 sided coin.

There are a couple things about this story that strike me as somewhat odd knowing what I know about the Boy Scouts and parenting;

• The Cub Pack or the BSA did not ban or kick out the son, I would have thought if a parent thought the Scouts were a good thing for thier son to be involved in they would just back off and be a parent of a Scout and encourage them to participate. (The BSA only bans Gays in leadership roles they do not ban children with gay parents nor do they ban those parents from participation in Scout activities)
• It seems odd that a Cub Pack would ask a new and uninitiated to the BSA parent to immediately become a Pack Leader....that is fishy.
• This trend by some to want everyone and every organization to become open to any alternate mindset is somewhat troubling and I wonder if some of the mothers of daughters who are commenting on the subject would be happy to have a male (teenage member or adult leader) to take or accompany her daughter on a Girl Scout outing like a camping trip? I am sure, as would I as the parent of daughters, they would be a bit concerned with that. If in that case I keep my daughters from attending because the supervisory/unaccompanied attendance of a male or a even gay female....does that make me a bigot or a concerned parent????????
• Someone above indicated and provided a link to a study which seemed to indicate that Americans were more accepting of Homosexuality in soceity now than they were years ago, this is likely to be true to a point. The questions asked by the survey (and I note that at least the questions were publicised in the summary article) were biased, black and white questions, which most people would have answered in the affirmative, however ask these questions to the same people and I am sure you get a far different result "would you encourage your child to engage in homosexual activities or to become a participant in a homosexual relationship?" "would you accept an openly gay male or female to be instructing, supervising or otherwise in unaccompanied control of your minor children?"....acceptance of other peoples choices is one thing actually accepting them as normal, encouraged, or rational behaviour or choices is quite another.

@Krestov

Those laws applied to the people of Israel at the time because they were theocratic. Also, it wasn't like" Kill you kid if they disobey a rule." It was a child who constantly turned away and denounced his parents. It was breaking the moral and civil laws of Israel (think of it as treason). They were the children who would eventually gain followers because their lifestyle appeared lavish and fun. Then, the Israeli theocracy would fall apart and turn away from God, which is pretty much the worst thing possible. As for the slaves, they were often prisoners of war. They aren't like modern slaves. They were to be treated faily and with respect. Think of indentured servants, but a better lifestyle. That's how it was supposed to be anyways. IT not saying to have slaves either (unless God wanted to prove a point to a defeated army/nation). If they did have them however, they were to be treated humanely.

I understand why you might not like their decision, but what makes them hypocrites?

They receive government money and preferential access to government lands, both things that private organizations can't do. Thus they are not private. They are hypocrites for accepting such things while at the same time using the private organization rules to discriminate.

Tex...a lot of the confusion comes from people not understanding what it means to "charter" a Boy Scout Troop/Pack. This is very different than "sponsoring" an entity. A "sponsoring" entity provides financial support while a "chartering" entity merely acknowledges the "worth" of the organization WITHOUT necessarily providing financial incentive. I have worked with nearly half a dozen different "charter" groups as well as "sponsor" groups. None of the "charter" groups (3 Boy Scout units and a Girl Scout unit) received financial backing from their charter organization (a Catholic Church, a Kiwanis Club, a VFW post, and a golf course---a women-only golf course, btw). The "sponsor" groups, on the other hand, all had financial ties to their sponsoring entity by covering things like uniform costs, league and equipment fees, and advertising fees. In addition, I can assure you, not a single parent of any of the sports teams that were sponsored was unaware of who the sponsor was, but more than 90% of the scout unit parents had NO IDEA who the charter holder was. While some charter organizations do provide financial support, it is not mandatory, but I dare you to find a sponsor organization that doesn't pay for the "privilage" to be the sponsor.

Really ???? C-biscuit busts down a snoop dog line. I finish the verse and get collapsed. Song is an art form. Get a life people.

Join the club leroy. They collapsed me for pointing out this 'great mom' was exploiting her son by dragging him on national TV to make her point. I had 50 some odd votes but was collapsed anyway. The boy is seven for God's sake. Who knows how his friends and schoolmates will treat him tomorrow.

As of this morning, up to seventy votes and counting, despite being collapsed. Whatever your views on homosexuality, people seem to agree this mom and GLADD exploited that child by putting him on national TV to talk about something he won't really understand for years.

How do you know if she is a pervert or evil? Have you personally met her? Have you asked her about her sexual practices? She might be a pervert.

Actually, it wasn't founded with a clause against homosexuality. That came about almost 75 years after the program was started in 1910. In fact there is no clause that says you cannot be a gay member of the BSA, but there is a clause that bars all AVOWED homosexuals from the program. I was a District Executive for the organization, and there were plenty of people that were obviously gay, but since they never specifically came out to the public they were allowed to participate. Also, each of the 303 +/- Councils vary in how much they will pursue an accusation of homosexuality. Sadly, once you are determined as being gay, you are put on a list with the National Council and never allowed to join again.

you might be one too but i think we're giving the benefit of the doubt

SouthPark did an episode on this that actually made some sense. The final message simply said that you can't force another person or private organization to accept your views. It has to be them accepting it for a difference to be made.

That said... I think I'd be more comfortable with my kid around someone who has disavowed the d***. You guys make it sound like she'll be trying something she probably has no interest in.

As a former District Executive for the BSA, I approve this message.

CPO,

You're spot on with that assessment.

But you forgot to mention how much the Mormons are involved....at least in CA.

The LDS Church has the BSA as the mandatory youth ministry program. As a result, every Mormon boy in a Stake goes through the Boy Scout program. They believe that the achievement of the Eagle Rank will set up the boy perfectly for missionary work in the future.

Unfortunately though, many LDS units just rubber-stamp the boys through the program because it is mandatory. In addition, the "assignment" of a service "calling" to members of the Stake also causes massive continuity problems with the program when 90-95% of the leadership changes annually. Coming from leadership of a "traditional" unit in a predominantly LDS area, I hardly ever see the same leaders twice at a jamboree and I would put most of the Webelos from the "traditional" units against the Star and Life rank (even Eagle) Scouts of the LDS units in skills contests just to keep things fair.

I totally agree with you. I'm not gay but I see no problem gay people being Scout leaders. I wouldn't let my grandson join the Boy Scouts because of their bigoted policy. But they don't seem to have a problem with child molesters seems there are alot of them in the scouts.

Boy Scouts just celebrated their 100th anniversary and I doubt they are disappearing anytime soon. Sorry to disappoint you. BTW no one openly comes out and says I'm a child molester.

The boy scouts are absolutely right ..every derogatory word John1411 used shows the hate-filled bigots and closed minded people so gays are (except my disgusting way of life or I hate you) .. where is the end to more open society .. I don't want my children a part of the ethical and social values this person promotes.... I don't hate but I am Christian ... I am supposed to be reprimanded by people with no values and those that make wrong right .. forget it .. yes I do have gay friends but that doesn't mean I accept their livestyle and will continue to explain why it's wrong..

the supreme court did NOT rule that the boy scouts have the "right" to be narrow, close-minded, discriminatory, hate-filled bigots....they ruled that as a private organization that they could control who was a member or not in their "private" organization....these people are free to start their own "private" organization that allows whomever they want as members...just because people dont agree with you doesnt mean they are bigoted anymore than you are a bigot against the boy scouts for not following YOUR preferences for their organization...there is a difference between being a homosexual and racism...being homosexual is a choice...all this stuff is simply an indicator of how screwed up in the mind most people are about this subject....the boy scouts didnt say she couldnt be a homosexual, but that they believe it to be a moral inadequacy for teaching young men how to socialize with other boys...there is more to life than sex, believe it or not...

saying it's a lifestyle is saying it's a choice...you are born with your orientation. Stop being so backwards

Yes, the Boy Scouts do have a right to remove anybody who does not abide by their rules. You also have a right to voice your opinion on such topics. I really do wish that they would get rid of this rule, since they already have rules set to protect young boys (such as a boy cannot share a tent with anyone but his own parent or guardian of there is nobody else in it) and it makes people like you ignore the world of good that the Boy Scouts does and nit-pick at its flaws. I understand that I sound rude here, and I really do not wish to be, but as a Boy Scout myself who has gone all the way from the beginning of Cub Scouts and am presently working on my Eagle, I think that I know a bit more than you. The Boy Scouts of America is a wonderful organization to be a part of, and it has done a world of good for me as well as thousands of other boys, and it should, in no way, be compared to the KKK. It is easy for one to sit in their chair and point out the bad aspects of something, even for something as wonderful as the Boy Scouts, but if you look at it on the ground level it isn't really an issue. I know for a fact that there are gay Boy Scouts, and I have met them. Did we care? No. To enter into Boy Scouts, they don't ask you if you are gay. This is why situations like this in Boy Scouts surprise me, because somebody obviously made a big fuss about it when it is really not a big issue at all.

I am personally offended...GREATLY OFFENDED... that you would dare compare the Boy Scouts of America to the KKK...john1411. I am a proud Eagle Scout and I can list many wonderful, positive contributions that the Boy Scouts have done for communities all across America. What have you contributed to the community lately...cleaned up a cemetery, visited elderly folks at a nursing home, picked up the garbage around town??? I could go on but you get my point.

I think you are the hate-filled narrow, close-minded, discriminatory BIGOT in this circumstance, who has to compare a great organization to a hateful organization from a generation ago that the vast majority of us has condemned many times...ONLY because of their Scouts policy toward the homosexual community.

LathamDave

The Boy Scouts do not own the mantel on doing good deeds. Although they do many! however this rule is not one of them.

I an greatly offended by the message this is teaching my boys. I wont pull them out of the Scouts as this would just perpetuate the message the scouts are plying. Right now my boys are innocent to this mess and will stay that way.

The Boy Scouts carrying out the action as they have is what ruins the innocents of young boys. I know many parents with gay friends and the children of the parents think nothing of it. They are still innocent to the wrong and frankly offensive message the Scouts is providing to their members.

Ironically I just watched "Birth of a Nation" the other night. Racist propaganda as much as Nazi propaganda was anti-semetic. A racist is a racist is a racist...

What are you looking for a David Duke Drive?

No Mom, the Boy Scouts receive public tax dollars. WE get to decide who can and cannot be a part of their organization.

The BSA do not receive tax $$$. They do occasionally use public facilities. The same as local church groups, unions, Lions Clubs, schools etc. That's up to each individual community.

We had the same issue (in Ohio, also) when our youngest came home from school BEGGING to join the Boy Scouts. We had deep reservations as we knew the "no gays" policy which we did NOT agree with. However, we had a first grade boy begging to join. He simply wanted to be in a group which was explained at school as being a 'great adventure' and his friends were all talking about joining.... so we talked to the leader in our area who assured us it wouldn't be an issue... BUT...we couldn't be den mothers, etc. I was OK with that at the time because I was working overtime as an RN and didn't have time to do that. The couple who did do it were in our neighborhood, and they were very open and understanding. However, as time went on, my SON made the decision that it wasn't right that we couldn't be den mothers and it was his choice to leave. Now, most of the kids at these meetings KNEW my son had 2 moms. It didn't ever turn to any talk about sexuality. Boys this age don't understand anyway. The talk of it being to 'protect the boys from molesters or from knowing about homosexuals' is MOOT!! They see same sex couples at many school and extra-curricular events anyway. Trying to keep a child from knowing who's really out in the world is ridiculous! Second, a vast majority of child molesters are STRAIGHT!! I know quite a few adults who were molested as children, and it was a straight family member or family friend each and every time. Gays do NOT want your children! We're looking for the same things a straight person looks for... a person to go through life with that is the same as we are. The fear and lies that surround this myth just blow my mind.

The most important factor here is how our children are affected. People come into school and talk about what fun the Boy Scouts are... get the kids wanting to join... then you have a really hard choice to make if you're a gay parent. Do you keep your child out of something that they want to join.. that their friends are in.. just because it's run by a bunch of ignorant people?? There is NO logical reason why gays are kept out. I am VERY afraid of someone hurting my children. However, I'm educated enough to know that they're much safer with a gay man than a straight one. The Girl Scouts don't have this ancient rule, and there are no more incidents of child molestation than there were before. The Girl Scouts actually have it right, because gays and lesbians ARE a part of this country just like straights are. It's past time to stop trying to segregate minorities and just let the kids be who they are. Straight folks need to stop acting like gays will go away if everyone acts like they aren't there. Statistically, a good number of Boy Scouts ARE gay, so what are you telling them?? It sets them up for a great deal of confusion when they're accepted by the scouts and society at one point in their life, then suddenly they're outcast from society when nothing changed for them at all.. they're the same people they always were. If parents want to raise their children "right" then they need to teach them that people are the same inside. Loving someone of the same sex doesn't make them demons or social outcasts. They are still American citizens and deserve the same treatment as everyone else. The Boy Scouts are sending a dangerous message to the young boys of this country.

@Toasty

Apparently not.

I didn't know that. That's a little odd. How would they prove that? Would a person have to come out and say it?

This is because they don't ban atheists. It's true that Boy Scouts was made to promote Christian values (i.e. goodwill, helping and being courteous towards one another) but it doesn't ban atheists. Two of my atheist friends were in Boy Scouts for several years and never had any problems.

Actually, they DO prohibit atheists in the same way they prohibit gays. This policy may be ignored in secular/liberal places but here in TX, boys have been denied their Eagle rank b/c they said they do not believe in God. BSA does NOT require adherence to any particular faith or even active churchgoing but a belief in God, however you personally define him/her/it, is required. This is something that I, a former Cub Scout leader and non-church goer who really didn't think about my beliefs, have had to think about. Now that my son is in Boy Scouts, where he'll be speaking for himself more often, we are discussing how I can reconcile my somewhat shaky belief in a supreme being of some type with my deep distrust of organized religion. A bit of a challenging topic for an 11 yo but one worth discussing.

And they get tax payer money every year, which means they are breaking the law by discriminating against non-believers and sexual minorities.

TractorTraylor - you are incorrect. BSA bans atheists, agnostics and gays.

Toasty: The Supreme Court never would have ruled in their favor if the BSA received a dime from the government.

Spinnaker, they frequently receive government funds and use government property.

There are so many things wrong with this post. But the biggest one is the gay capital of the United States is now in two places: San Francisco, CA and Key West, FL. And having been in both Sydney, Australia and London, England I'm going to call those closely tied with their U.S. counterparts.

Hitler tried the population control thing...didn't work for him, now, did it. What a comment to make...population control? I know who should go first.

And as to the Black - Gay comparison. Black is something you can't fix (not that you'd want to, just that you can't if you did). And while you may claim you can't fix Gay, you certainly can suppress its claim on your life by living heterosexual. Yes, I'm a Bible thumper, but I'm also respectful of people's lifestyles....not that I approve, just that I don't look down on them as inferior to me. My comment is just to indicate that Black and Gay are not in the same category.

A gay person should not have to "suppress" it and live as a heterosexual. Would you be able to suppress your heterosexuality and live as a homosexual? Of course not. That was a silly thing to say.

I am sorry if some of these people still think that homosexuality is a choice... It isn't... Is heterosexuality a choice?? Bet you say no!! So I say Homosexuality is as much a choice as Heterosexuality... That IS the truth...

If homosexuality is a choice, then so is left-handedness.

@Toasty McGrath - That is not a logical argument.

If homosexuality is a choice, then so is buying a couch. ??

If homosexuality is a choice, then so is having a foot. ??

By the way, sometimes, right handed people also learn to use their left hand and when they use their left hand, they are using their left hand! And when someone has sex with other people of the same sex they are -- wait for it -- engaging in homosexuality.

So "be homosexual" all you want, just don't engage in homosexuality.

In order to be gay or lesbian you have to reject what sex you were when born as and rejection is a matter of choice. You have to choose to ignore your chemical & physical being and decide to be the opposite of it. If G & L think they have hard time accepting who they are they must understand how others do when they try to be what they are not.

Just because it's another human being? vs sex with inanimate objects or bestiality or children even, .... doesn't make it right.

@Toasty McGrath

"If homosexuality is a choice, then so is left-handedness."

Here's an analogy for you. What if someone crushes your left-hand? Wouldn't you learn to use the right one? Child sexual abuse crushes a boy's sexual identity. Can you see how that may effect his decisions about his sexuality?

1 in 6 boys are molested as children, by men in approx. 70% of cases. I'm always amazed how the gay community never mentions that fact in the "born gay" line of reasoning.

Spin, even if someone is traumatized into changing, it's not a CHOICE. And the fact still is that the vast majority of sexual minorities were born that way. Stop playing stupid, you know better.

rev, thats because not all people who are abused turn gay, and not all gay people have been abused. its NOT a link.

Mandy,I guess it all come down to the fact that to be a gay male you must enjoy anal sex and to be a lesbian you must enjoy the tongue for your sexual pleasure.

awww John... thats not true... they make lots of toys ;-) And most men enjoy anal sex... its where their g-spot is. Lots are just afraid to try it.

Was just paging down to say "Go BSA for teaching bigotry and ignorance."

Because our tax dollars are going to fund a discriminatory organization illegally. That's why it's an issue.

hello, they do not receive any federal tax dollars!

They not only receive taxpayer funding, McMillen, but they also frequently use government property for their events.

How do you know? People can swing both ways. There is something called a bisexual. She might like banging gay men with a strap on. you don't know.

Newsflash Vickie: She is lesbian.

I think you are referring to pedophiles. Not gay/lesbian people. Just thought I might help.

All of the gays I know would never hurt a child. Why do you assume and have this perception that gay men like little boys? A pedophiles' sickness goes after children they deem to be a good target such as a child they make think isn't watched too carefully, see signs of abuse and neglect and feel they will be able to manipulate and control the child. A sick bastard is a sick bastard no matter what the gender.

Vicky - You are so right. Gays and lesbians aren't pedophiles. That is just the crap that the religious, conservative, ignorant, right spew to scare people. I have many gay friends and they are no more interested sexually in little boys than heterosexual women are. They like men. A pedophile is a sick, deviant monster.

tex: 18 in most states.

Tex, the same age that little girls are fair game for straight males.

Tex is just hurt and angry because neither straight or gay ever hit on him and his advances are rejected by both.....

Is that supposed to be a good thing?

she is not a man at all...she is a woman pretending to be a man...there is a difference

best post yet

A stay-at-home mom of four is 'pretending to be a man'? Seriously?

all of whom are of the heterosexual variety,

I'm gonna go ahead, and guess that that isn't an accurate statement.... Boy scouts are by definition, boys. and a majority of scout masters are men....

Michael males having sex with males is a gay thing. No 2 ways about it.

But Leroy, men who see children as sexual objects are not concerned with the gender of the child. Prepubescent children are androgynous. That is why most child molestation of children of both sexes is done by males who are otherwise heterosexual.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure child molesters get off on the power/control aspect, not the gender of the child or the act of having sex with a child. It's along the same lines as rapists getting off on the power aspect, not the sexual aspect.

That doesn't mean anything. The Supreme Court can overturn its own rulings.

This organization receives tax dollar funding. They have to comply with the law.

That's like saying no one wants to be persecuted for believing the world is flat. You can believe anything you choose but that doesn't make it the truth or factual. Now you can go on believing the earth is flat, 6000 years old and not believing that homosexuality exists...but people are gonna be laughing.

That's the thing, Roland. It's NOT their choice. No more than being left-handed is a choice.

"It's NOT their choice. No more than being left-handed is a choice."

It's also my coice to make a selfish decision or hurt someone due to my human nature. I was born imperfect and have the tendency to want more for myself and less for others. However, just because I was born that way doesn't make it right. I can supress and control my desires so they don't rule me. The same rules can apply.

Dude, being left-handed isn't an affront to nature and frankly that's very insulting to left-handed people everywhere.

No lie, I am left handed.

Basically, all I was trying to say is just because you were made a certain way doesn't mean you should acts based on the feelings and other things you have been given.

ccmnxc...... Are you nuts? One God made you male or female. Science in it's way has either brought you thru the birth and you are still male or female and due to Human Engineered Medicine some children are transferred into "both sexes"(choice to be made later by one or more individuals). To Be GAY, Is A Choice. It's not your lifeline.

To Be GAY, Is A Choice.

No, it is an orientation.

To have sex is a choice, and there is no indication this Young Banished Scout has ever had sex.

The Scouts have kicked him out of Scouting for how he was born, not for something he has done.

Not by the Boy Scouts brought to you by your friends the LDS Church (Mormons) and the Roman Catholic Church. There will be NO loving one another there!

@Marie from Missouri - Scientific claims that have been made about heredity, genetics, or hormones DETERMINING sexual orientation have failed either to be repeated, to be valid, or to be replicated. The evidence does NOT support your claim that being gay or lesbian is not a choice.

Many homosexuals/lesbians concede this.

Lesbian activist Camille Paglia said: "Homosexuality is not 'normal.' On the contrary it is a challenge to the norm...Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule. That is the norm. Our sexual bodies were designed for reproduction...No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous..."

Lesbian activist and biologist Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, referring to the "born gay" argument, said: "It provides a legal argument that is, at the moment actually having some sway in court. For me, it's a very shaky place. It's bad science and bad politics"

yes it is a choice they make

Another questions is: Does it matter if it's a choice? Does one make it better than the other? Can a person still be worthwhile and valuable even if they prefer the company of the same gender?

(Please don't bring religion into that argument. Sexuality is deeply personal and unique to the individual, as is faith.)

Anyone that believes homosexuality is a choice better check themselves. Think, just for one moment. Do you choose to be heterosexual? Like you would choose chocolate over vanilla ice cream? No. It's a ridiculous notion, and no one should need a study saying so.

reality53102 - When I have sex with someone it is a choice I make. When I choose ice cream I sometimes choose chocolate and sometimes vanilla. By the way - no one is born with a "chocolate ice cream loving gene". That notion is ridiculous.

The studies are done trying to prove the claim that we should not label homosexuality as a behavior. What is ridiculous is calling what people DO something other than a behavior.

I know it's the policy of the BSA, but its time for them to join the 21st century, and stop living in the 19th, when the scouts were founded. I would never allow a child of mine to join a bigoted, organization like the BSA. Camp Fire, and Girl Scouts, have no problem, with gay parents, or leaders. I hope this Mom, gets her son, into a good group. One day maybe BSA will finally see how wrong, their policy is. By the way, there have been a lot of cases, of Pedophiles, as scout leaders, and they worry about a gay Mom.

How many times have you had a same-sex date, Jeff?? It has never been a choice for me... Thank you Marie! Jeff is heterosexuality a "behavior"? There has been some studies showing homosexual relationships in the animal kingdom...

Funny, isn't the BSA the ones shoving heterosexual down Our throats???

How does one "choose" which sex they are naturally attracted to? Honestly, the "it's a choice" argument is among the dumber ones to come from the Christian Right, and that's a pretty low bar to begin with.

Anyone that believes homosexuality is a choice better check themselves. Think, just for one moment. Do you choose to be heterosexual?

Exactly.

There is absolutely no way I could choose to be gay. If it were a choice, I would probably be gay. Chicks are a pain in the ass. Drama, Drama, Drama. I have so much more in common with dudes. I like burning stuff, and 4 wheelin. Guys like that stuff too. It would be great to be able to date somebody that I had so much in common with.

Unfortunately, I think the male body is about the most disgusting thing around, and girls have all those nice soft parts that I like. I really don't see why all women aren't gay. Us dudes are pretty nasty.

I would love to be able to choose to be gay. Unfortunately, it's not possible. No amount of choosing would make sex with another dude tolerable... or even possible. No amount of wishing could make me get aroused by a nasty hairy dude.

What we find attractive is a part of us, and is not something that we can change just by wishing we could.

Never a same sex date - still waiting for Brad Pitt to ask me out.

When I have chosen to ask someone out, I have looked over people out there and always chosen a female. It never just "happened."

Heterosexuality is a behavior. If I started having sex with other men, then I would be engaging in homosexual behavior.

Animals engage in a lot of behaviors we do not condone as moral - incest, pedophilia, murder, cannibalism to name a few. Dogs try to hump human legs. Tells me dogs are not smart enough to know the difference between a human leg and a female dog. They behave according to their biological instinct.

Are you claiming you have no control and have no ability to discern whether any behaviors are morally good or bad? Are you claiming not to have choice, free will?

@Spencer - would you choose to be a murderer? Yet if you murdered someone what would you be?

I could not imagine myself doing any number of activities, but IF I DID THEM (whether they were influenced by an innate compulsion or not) I can not claim it was how I was born.

Anyone - engaged in any activity could make the same claim and we might as well throw out ALL moral standards. Ridiculous. There are NO studies proving anyone is born homosexual.

You are mistaking a proclivity, a tendency, a desire for the action. People are born with a proclivity to all kinds of immirality. Allowing and celebrating immoral actions whether pedophilia, kleptomania, or homosexuality is the problem. We as humans have the ability to rise above innate immoral urges.

It's 2012; homosexuality has been a mentioned in western civilization since at least the time of the Ancient Greek philosophers (Socrates, Plato, etc.). Yet, a loving mother cannot participate in one her son's activities (BSA) simply because she is gay. It appears she has not flaunted this fact; as the article stated, "two moms." When are we going to move on, and live and let live....

Rustie - Yes and rapists have been around for just as long, so let's put openly avowed rapists in positions of authority and leadership over our children. Intelligent thought.

Now pass the keyboard over to Audrey.

Jeff...STFU...that's an apple and oranges analogy. Rape is act of violence. A person's sexual orientation is hardly an act of violence. *rolling eyes*

Oilman - you missed the point. Must have slid past your oiled up brain. The point was that just because an activity has a long history does not de facto make it something we must accept.

I was not making any moral comparison about the two behaviors.

Jeff...again, STFU. You are not the authority on what is and what is not moral. Your apples/oranges analogies (comparing sexual orientation to rape, murder pedophelia and other irrelevant slime) is ridiculous. I no longer hate people like you Jeff, I just feel incredibly sorry that you are so xenophobic that you can't see the forest from the trees.

Jeff, you're making some of the most sense in this entire thread. Excellent quote from Camille Paglia.

Oilman: There actually is a correlation between rape and homosexuality. Both are often the result of sexual abuse in childhood.

RS...the overwhelming majority of rape, incest, and molestation cases are HETEROSEXUAL. There is NO correlation whatsoever. Spare me with that bs already!

I think Miss Tyrell probably knew she would face opposition when she decided to become an open homosexual. And she knew about the rules before becoming a den mother. She tried to skirt the rules.

Oilman: A full 30% of intrafamilial molestation is perpetrated by females. Also, do you really consider someone like Sandusky straight?

The correlation you missed is that rapists and homosexuals very often have been victims of child sexual abuse. 1 in 6 boys are molested, and many experts think that ratio is low.

Sorry Spencer but this is not true anymore. The Boy Scouts of America are not allowed to use government facilities anymore. I know this for a fact because this same reason prevents them from doing so. We had to leave a military government facility on an Air Force Base back in 2003 because military was not allowed to support Boy Scouts anymore becasue they do not allow everyone to join I agree with the rule. We moved to meet in a church A lot of Boy Scout troops meet in halls, churces, and private places now. They are not supported by the government anymore. So, this is not true. They are a private organization and they can set their rules anyway they want. I am all behind them and this rule.