They pulled a lot of illegal crap in the name of national security, when actually it was their own arrogance that drove these "policies," not sound reasoning or even the law.

That they subverted the law and waterboarded anyone even once is disgusting and horrifying, that they waterboarded one guy 183 times is beyond belief.

Yes, many of our governments leaders from the Bush administration failed our country, the world, and humanity.

fromarizona, I couldn't have said it as well ! All we accomplished was to sink to the level of the rest of the despots in the world. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsdumb were a trio from hell, in my opinion.

During my 71 years on this planet, one of the most amazing things I have witnessed, is our nation electing George Bush as President. TWICE !

Say what you will, boy george bush lied us into a war and over 4000 american troops died. Bush & chenney both deserve to be put on trial.

we're the usa. we don't commit war crimes. and if we do, what ya gon do 'bout it? huh? tough guy?

Well chenney won't travel outside the US, and I think boy george is worried about it too.

B-52 carpet bombing of Vietnam killed nearly one million civilians. In Afghanistan, hundreds of thousands men, women, and children perished under US aerial bombardment. US Predators have attacked hundreds of targets inside Pakistan, killing several hundred innocent people. The American government also conducts a covert and overt war in Yemen killing and maiming innocent people. Under the pretense of WMD, US invasion of Iraq killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women, and children. Even vocal disloyal Americans living abroad are assassinated by the American government. The "Shock and Awe" is not about American fire power, but it reveals the magnitude of American brutally, violence, savagery and hate.

These are the deeds of the New America, not the one the Framers had envisioned and structured. The New America is about: Lies. Propaganda. Fraud. Waging four wars around the world. Torture of prisioners. Assassination of anyone deemed a terrorist.

The government of the New America has caused too much bloodshed of innocent people from around the world in the name of the American people. The day will come when the world shall issue its final judgment against USA and those government leaders responsible for the death of millions of innocent people shall be tried, held accountable, and punished.

I am horrified, absolutely horrified at the way this article was written; at the way the information was presented to the reader. I can not quote enough to show what I mean, I really really hope others noticed it too. With such unprofessionalism in so many other articles, it's amazing to me to see how delicately they've tried to actually tiptoe around using the term "torture" at all, unless it was surrounded by the descriptive "what critics CALL" or "what some human rights advocates CONSIDER"....

I had no idea I was a critic or human rights advoate for thinking that forcing a person to experience something we apparently hope felt like drowning, sleep deprivation, "making people crouch or stretch in stressful positions" (the rack/4 horses anyone?) and slamming someone against a "flexible" wall, would be consider means of torture.

What put the icing on the yellow-journalism cake was this line:

The Bush Administration only used water-boarding on three captured suspects. One of them was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Only? Oh well I guess that's ok then. Next we'll be saying that marine involved with the massive civilian murder thing "only" killed however many people he allegedly killed. Or such-n-such leader "only" raised taxes such-n-such percent, etc. etc....

Then we can follow it up with the second part, blatently describing how basically anything we could've done to the person was justified, based on what they did. I don't care if the guy was the one to plan the attacks, breaking our own laws and torturing him AFTER THE FACT only hurts our Country in massive ways, it hurts our name, what we stand for, what we believe in and what we were built on. I know "eye for an eye" may comfortably feel justified at times, but as American's we CANNOT ALLOW THAT TO BECOME ACCEPTABLE. If we fail at this, we are setting that example for the rest of the world as well as losing any integrity we had left at the same time.

I am ashamed. I am so ashamed that apparently so many people are ok with this. And on top of that, the article was written to pursuede the opinion that "it's ok" too, while trying to quiety quell the fact that it was written based on information that IT DIDN'T WORK ANYWAY.

This whole report is nothing but a politically motivated hatchet job. It is also very telling that the Democrats are timing the release of the report to try and influence the results of the Presidential election in November. There have been previous reports that stated that information gained using these enhanced interrogation techniques did in fact lead to the disruption of a number of planned attacks. Of course much of the information is still classified and many of the people involved can not talk about what went on or the information gathered due to the ongoing legal cases. The Republican pulled out of participating in this investigation because they realized that they would not be able to have access to all of the people involved in the interrogations, and therefor all of the relevant information on the effectiveness of the methods, due to these ongoing legal cases. Rather than producing a report with questionable accuracy, completeness, and information the Republicans pulled out of the efforts. The Democrats charged ahead because they do not care about accuracy, they only want to score political points by releasing their incomplete, biased report. This report is nothing more than a piece of political fiction to try and help Democratic candidates in the November elections. The Democrats also point at the Bush administration and put all of the responsibility on them for the use of these techniques. They conveniently ignore the fact that many members of their own party knew about the plans to use these techniques before they were implemented and either agreed with it or, at a minimum, did absolutely nothing to try and stop it. To try and place this entirely on the Republicans and the Bush administration is disingenuous and totally hypocritical of them - but then what do you expect from politicians.

If enhanced interrogation techniques really did not work, then why have they been used for literally thousands of years to extract information from the enemy. Simple common sense tells you that if a technique did not work it would surely have gone by the wayside after so many years. Whether or not what the CIA did crossed the line into torture is a subject for debate. The one thing I will say is that what they did is nothing compared to what al Qaeda and the Taliban did to captured US troops. I am not saying that two wrongs make a right, just trying to put these interrogation techniques into context. I would also point out that water-boarding was only used on three prisoner who were the masterminds behind any of the attacks and plots. While we can certainly debate whether the technique was effective with these three prisoners. However, not that I am saying we should have done this to more people or that we should use it in the future on more people, it is clear that three people is hardly a sufficient sample size from a scientific perspective to determine the effectiveness of the technique. That said, this technique had been used in the past by others and must have proven effective or the CIA would not have used it to start with. As a rule I do not support torture, however, you have to ask yourself how far you would be willing to go to get information from someone that could save potentially thousand of lives, or for that matter just one life - that of a much loved member of your family. Those using these enhanced interrogation techniques were not doing it for fun, they were doing it to try and prevent another 9/11, USS Cole attack, Marine Barracks attack, etc. Ask yourself this question - How many lives have to be at risk before you would be willing to use whatever means necessary to get the information to save them. It is very easy to sit back in and ivory tower and condemn what these people did from a philosophical standpoint, but in real world situations where real lives are at risk it is a much harder decision to make.

OK - I am ready for all the liberals out there to start flaming me now. The truth is that while they will publicly flame me for what I have said, in truth most of them are glad that there are people out there that will do the dirty work needed to keep them safe and protect their right to denounce what I say.

Please take the time to do some research on the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo Trials). It has been pointed out time and time again that We, the United States of America, considered waterboarding torture and therefore an illegal, executable offense/war crime, to which we hung Japanese for after WWII. I've seen this debate on the news before and I can't believe it's still making headlines as possibly "not being considered torture" or any kind of offense (when we do it, of course). Here's the quickest, most clear info I can find to quote with a good idea where you can check sources for yourself. Though it's from a "CNN political commentator" (about possibly the same debate I saw) facts are facts and he offers plenty of sources to back it up if you're willing to do the research.

After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."

The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts." Bottom line: Sen. McCain was right in 2007 and National Review Online is wrong today. America did execute Japanese war criminals for waterboarding.

And for all the sentiments for or against whether torture is effective or not,the point is that in our country, we consider it ILLEGAL and should therefore uphold our own laws by not practicing it!

in truth most of them are glad that there are people out there that will do the dirty work needed to keep them safe...

JS in SD - thanks for an intelligent post.

The only country that ever gets charged on war crimes is the losing one. Read Your History.

We should keep thing simple and put their headless bodies on display, how ever we handle it its always been a part of war most likely always will be..

Officials said, however, that it was not until some time after he was water-boarded that KSM told interrogators about the courier's existence. Therefore a direct link between the physically coercive techniques and critical information is unproven, Bush administration critics say.

Torture did not work or Osama bin Laden would have been found and killed years before Obama got elected. Oh wait..."I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02........never mind. Bush was not wanting to kill his friend.

http://www.oilempire.us/bush-binladen.html

JS - You need some context, well heres some. When we stoop to their level we stop being the United States, they win.

What does it say about the CHARACTER and MORALS of Bush/Cheney/Rove et all when they sent our real national treasure - the men and women of our military - into harms way to look for WMD's that they KNEW were NOT there! You betcha they all need to be on trial!

And some pro-British American colonists conducted an investigation right after the American Revolution and concluded that there was 'little evidence' to support the claims that British policies justified the revolution.

Get real - A 'committee' of people opposed to 'enhanced interrogation' concluded that it was a failed policy.

They could have announced their 'findings' 5 minutes after the Republican members withdrew from this 'select' committee.

'The Bush Administration only used water-boarding on three captured suspects. One of them was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks.'

And KSM 'sang like a bird' after that.

JS in SD "This whole report is nothing but a politically motivated hatchet job.... The Republican pulled out of participating in this investigation because they realized that they would not be able to have access to all of the people involved in the interrogations, and therefor all of the relevant information on the effectiveness of the methods, due to these ongoing legal cases. Rather than producing a report with questionable accuracy, completeness, and information the Republicans pulled out of the efforts. The Democrats charged ahead because they do not care about accuracy, they only want to score political points by releasing their incomplete, biased report. This report is nothing more than a piece of political fiction to try and help Democratic candidates in the November elections"

Excellent points. Any 'committee' that represents only one side of the political spectrum is bound to be biased.

At least we now know that Cheney has a heart........

What about the tapes??? You know, the 92 (ninety-two!!!) video tapes of the totur----errrrr, enhanced interrogation methods that were destroyed by the CIA?

You know, the ones that the Bush appointee and political hack, CIA director Michael Hayden at first said that two tapes (try 92) were destroyed and that he was "angered" when he found out?

Destruction of evidence anyone?

@JS ...did you even bother reading the article or just look at the pictures?

One reason the inquiry has taken so long is that in 2009, committee Republicans withdrew their participation

As to why it (torture) has been used for thousands of years that's because there have been sick bastards on this earth for thousands of years, people who should have had a trace of decency in them. There are written accounts of women who were tortured during the Spanish Inquisition for witchcraft who didn't even know what they were being tortured for who begged to confess for their crimes if they only knew what to confess to. The only thing about torture that ALMOST ALL EXPERTS AGREE ON is that almost anyone who is tortured will say whatever the torturer wants to hear in order to make the torture stop. What is it about that that you don't understand. Let's forget about morality for just a minute. One would have to be incredibly stupid to use a method of extracting info that we already know is flawed- and reasonable people already know this. So why don't you?

Another point for the jackboots consider is the work of Dr. Alfred McCoy. He has done considerable study on torture and torturers. And in fact, those who practice torture eventually undergo mental and psychological changes as well, and not for the better. Many studies, in fact, have looked at that. You goose steppers really need to crack a book and educate yourselves. Stupid and proud of it is no way to go through life. As msfruhauf very capably pointed out as well, it is illegal. We have executed people for this. So how do you justify calling something okay that you have used as a justification for death? I'd love to hear the cognitive dissonance on that.

One last point that might be pragmatic enough to satisfy any of the reactionaries who can read non-comic book format- the FBI (and I'm no fan of the FBI) had and has a program of interrogation that is incredibly effective,usually within just a few days that doesn't involve torture. Brilliant and very, very effective. So why would you want to spend weeks or months torturing someone for bad info when you can get GOOD INFO IN A FEW DAYS WITHOUT BEING JUST AS NASTY AS THE MONSTERS YOU ARE FIGHTING?

I always find it entertaining how quickly the Neocons and (most) Republicans readily support torture. Usually it's the ones that either dodged the draft or are too old to have to worry about serving and going MIA.

THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Those of you that are so willing to flush our integrity down the toilet be it our personal freedoms, right to free speech, illegal wire-tapping, and torturing are WORSE than the people that hit us on 9/11. You're doing it willingly and eagerly. You regurgitate a couple talking points that are pounded into your head that day by Fox News and nod your head approvingly.

You're playing right into their hands and doing exactly what they wanted us to do - CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE. YOU'RE PATHETIC.

WASHINGTON - A nearly three-year-long investigation by Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats is expected to find there is little evidence the harsh "enhanced interrogation techniques" the CIA used on high-value prisoners produced counter-terrorism breakthroughs.

Really? A Democrat committee is expected to find there is little evidence the harsh "enhanced interrogation techniques" the CIA used on high-value prisoners produced counter-terrorism breakthroughs? Get out! I don't believe it! Next thing I'll be hearing is that millions of jobs created or saved is unprovable! What really surprises me is that Reuters put in Democrats when describing the make-up of the committee. The story couldn't be more ridiculous.

This is the kind of article you get when journalism is purchased by corporate entities in league with the govt. The U.S. only tortured 3 people? Really? What's the source of that information, MSNBC? And would you call renditioning people to be tortured in other countries an act that the U.S. should take responsibility for? Did you even read the state department cables published in the New York Times? Did you know that both Spain and Germany were about to sue the U.S. govt for war crimes on behalf of their citizens who were tortured and wrongly renditioned by the U.S. govt until they were pressured not to? Is a state department cable not a reliable source of information?

All your life you are raised to believe in the integrity of your country. No matter what, the U.S. upholds the principles of the Geneva Convention, meaning we won't sink to "their" level. Then you find out it was all an effin lie. That's how twisted this country has become since bin Laden--he accomplished his goal to make this country stoop to his level AND to turn on its own citizens by making us the enemy AND destroying democracy.

The process of arranging facts into a story creates bias. It's unavoidable. What's more, the decisions editors and reporters make could steer you away from the information you need to make important decisions in your life.

Are these MSNBC editors and writers trained in journalism school? Are you so desperate to fill your website that you'll print anything, knowing it will disappear in a second? Journalism used to be an honorable profession that people depended on for truth and factual data. Now it's just propaganda, you've become Superpacs for the political parties.

D.Man "I always find it entertaining how quickly the Neocons and (most) Republicans readily support torture."

I find it entertaining how quickly the Neolibs and (most) Democrats readily support making any terrorist uncomfortable in any way a case of torture.

President Obama is such a failure that we need these types of "3 year democrat study" found George Bush was wrong again. It took 3 years to find Bush wrong again? President Obama won last time running against Bush and he wants to try that again. PURE FAILURE!

Perhaps they should form a 'committee' (Republicans only) so see if Obama's policies have been a failure - and release the results in October, about 2 weeks before the election.

Gee, I wonder if Reuters would report it?

The problem with using torture as an interrogation technique is that eventually rhw subject will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, just to make it stop. Doesn't matter if it's true or not.

One of the concerns is that even after this information is obtained it must still be verified. And the most frequently-used method of verification...torture someone else.

Based on some of the responses I've read here most of the supportes of torture seem to take the position that, "It's OK because the other side did it first, and it makes us look tougher."

Roy - You will see the results of that study in commercials coming soon. It will be fun to watch.

It seems the people that most support torture are the Taliban and good Christians.

Fake 'Republicans' and fake 'conservatives' are the only ones defending their a*sh*le leader, Dick Cheney. Conservatives by action and not just to stroke themselves do not follow this piss poor excuse for a leader.

FYI, we already KNEW torture did not help the war on terror. We KNOW it doesn't help at all. Because do you know who did know, and did all the work far better than we would ever? The Nazis. Yes, the experiment on human Nazis who we defeated and who's work we discovered after we went through their studies. The Nazis determined that torture did not reveal worthwhile intelligence. It did, however, get the person you tortured to say whatever you wanted them to.

So Dick, I don't like Ambassadors so I get their wives who work for the CIA fired, and therefore actually hurt my own country Dick, Dick Cheney approved of torture so the tortured would say whatever him and his loser cronies wanted them to.

This is not even about morals, though that's what it should be about. It is about being effective. The only people who follow Dick Cheney are the ones who don't want to look at their own face in the mirror and realize they are the problem.

Best joke is that it is exactly what those denial loving fake conservatives like to say other people are doing.

Don't have to be liberal to realize this. Just have to have a couple of brain cells.

@ROY WILSON-336103

Perhaps the psychotic twits who represent you should do thei f'in jobs.

Excellent points. Any 'committee' that represents only one side of the political spectrum is bound to be biased

This silly statement might have some merit if not for the FACT that your slimeballs chose to walk away. Using your flawed, convoluted rationale, all any party would ever have to do to shut down a legitimate investigation is simply walk away from the table. Just because your anti-America reactionary KKK reps would use an opportuntiy to skewer their political opponents as they have tried to do to OUR PRESIDENT, doesn't mean that this is what the dems were doing here. If you have proof of it, shut your noise hole and post it. If you don't just shut your noise hole. Wow....you sure chose the right party for you..It is truly disturbing to see how many Americans like you hate their country.

As to the timing, maybe if your gutless racist jackasses in Washington hadn't chosen to not do their jobs, the study would have been completed quicker...

"Senate Intelligence Committee Democrats"

Republicans walked away because of the clear intent not to find the truth but to promote an agenda. To hell with the Democrats. I will never vote for one again, they are nothing but crooks who put their political interest above the nation.

@ROY WILSON-336103

I find it entertaining how quickly the Neolibs and (most) Democrats readily support making any terrorist uncomfortable in any way a case of torture.

Yeah...I get that. Personally, I find it entertaining that the people who are most desperately in need of education support the very people who try to keep you from becoming educated.

BTW, while you lilliputians hack away at the windmills, you might also want to consider that so many studies have already been done on the effectiveness of torture by real researchers and doctors that it is absolutely ridiculous that Congress would seriously bother to weigh in on this. The effectiveness issue was put to bed very long ago and only the most neanderthalic troglodytes- like dickless Cheney, the ferocious warrioir who was to busy to fight in Viet Nam but not too busy to tell others to fight now- still even question it.

I was a USAF intelligence analyst (first SW USSR air defenses, then North Korea political/military) for over ten years. Every intelligence analyst was and is trained that torture never produces usable intelligence. Every intelligence analyst is trained to report anyone attempting torture. Period.

Torture does not produce usable intelligence for the simple reason that any prisoner will tell any interrogator what he thinks he wants to hear in order to make the torture stop. The kind of intelligence people who torture actually tell the prisoner the things that the prisoner tells back to them through subtle cues and phrases. It's called the "Clever Hans Effect" in intelligence schools. Yes, you can find nuggets of truth in testimony from torture, but it is buried in literally thousands of nuggest that the prisoner made up.

When I was in Vietnam, I remember particularly one intelligence report that stated that the North Vietnamese Army was building a base on the moon and it would be used to shoot down Spooky gunships. The author, a CIA employee, obviously thought this was earth-shaking from its addressee list. The prisoner was "no longer available for interview", their way of saying he was tortured to death. I saw literally hundreds of other such reports in both Vietnam and South Korea and absolutely none ever contained usable intelligence.

There are accepted ways of interrogation that DO produce results and much more quickly than torture. But they require a degree of sophistication and intelligence to apply. Once a prisoner begins to talk, he provdes intelligence whether he realizes it or not. And that intelligence can be cross-checked with other information and added to a growing picture of what is going on. You have to remember than there are many other sources of intelligence, from satellite photography, to intercepted communications, to just mining the massive amounts of information available in the media. You can compare and cross-check the information from prisoners with other sources to tell you if you are on the right track.

The problem in intelligence is never too little information. It is quite the opposite --- too much information. So much information that you are swamped in trivia and irrelevant and meaningless junk and spend virtually all efforts in just trying to winow it down to something meaningful. You find out things and then have no idea of their significance. This is where secretive societies like North Korea go so badly wrong. Their very secrecy often tells intelligence people what is relevant and important. Trying to hide something is like putting a huge arrow pointing to it. Bad information from tortured prisoners just adds to the problem. As a friend once observed --- most HUMINT (human-source intelligence) is just good for keeping the coffee stains off the bottom of your waste basket.

The CIA has only a very primitive analytis capability. Its mission is not analysis because it is only a tiny user of intelligence. The primary role of the CIA is to handle turncoats and traitors. Some are ideological, but most are simply paid informants. Spies are not really even a factor except in the movies. And paid informants are just as bad as tortured prisoners --- they will tell the CIA anything to keep the money coming. The CIA's superinformant in Iraq who "told all" about Sadaam's WMD was code-named "Curveball." They knew he was a curveball, but paid him anyway. And more than half the prisoners at Guantanamo are nothing more than low-level "foreign" fighters, especially from Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and other places. Local Taliban and even non-Taliban "sold" them to the CIA as high-level operatives in order to get the money (generally $5,000 a head for "senior"people.) In most cases, they were sold because they had foreign accents of did not speak Pashtun or Urdu or the local dialect. The worst were the anti-Communist Chinese Uigurs who only wanted to get combat skills to fight the Chinese government. Now they are tortured, completely radicalized and cannot be sent to other countries because no one will take them. And they cannot be tried because they are both tortured and innocent. So, in defiance of everything the Founding Fathers wanted for this country, they will spend the rest of their lives in prison without ever being charged or tried for anything. When the FBI went to Guantanamo to interrogate the prisoners, they saw what the CIA was doing, often using Marine proxies, and left summarily. They knew that it was a poisoned well and that no useful intelligence was to be had.

I struggled for a long time with the issue of torture. I watched as CIA operatives used ARVN "proxies" to torture prisoners. (BTW --- waterboarding usually consist of putting a tied prisoner head down on a bencu and putting a succession of coke bottles filled with water inm his mouth, smashing out his teeth if necessary. His choice is to swallow madly and breath in some water every time he gasps for air. Eventually, he talks or drowns. If he talks, he will most likely die of pneumonia later. Otherwise, he is rolled off the bench and someone jumps onto his abdomen, rupturing his distended stomach and causing him to eventually bleed to death --- let's not get carried away with images of sterile cheesecloth and distilled water and physicians hovering nearby. No worthwhile physician will particilate in torture. It is a nasty business. No CIA people, but over 100 GIs were convicted of torturing or killing prisoners in the Vietnam War. So I thought at least that the authorities were trying to get the people who did it.

I saw the same in Korea with the CIA using RoK proxies to interrogate captured North Korean commandos/infiltrators/spies and even turncoats who had defected to the South. But no one was ever charged there. I wondered: If these people are trained that it is wrong and trained that the intelligence that they gather is substantially worthless, why do they continue to do it? I came up with two reasons: a) Some people just get their kicks from torturing a helpless prisoner. Period. Borderline Personality Disorder is the most likely cause. and b) People who are trying to produce legitimate intelligence from prisoners who know nothing of value become frustrated and, often under pressure to produce, lash out at the only people they can --- the prisoners.

So, based on considerable training and 10 years experience I can tell you for a fact. No significant amount of useful intelligence is obtained from torture. Torture compromises the intetrrogation process and makes it almost impossible to get information in traditional ways. People who torture are criminals and need to be treated as such. And for you brave torture supporters: I was taught that your phenotype is the one that I should select for the easiest interrogation. A little swagger, a little bragadoccio, a little over-assertive. Yep, they are the ones who will give up their grandmother in a few minutes --- like the infamout Songbird, Sen John McCain who crumbled and traded everything he knew for medical treatment in less than 4 hours, most of which was probably not active interrogation.

We can do it

It seems the people that most support torture are the Taliban and good Christians.

Good observation. That's remarkable, isn't it?

Other remarkable coincidences...

Both hate women and want to keep them barefoot,pregnant, and in the kitchen.

Both hate art (the GOPs war on the NEA and NPR is very well documented as is the Taliban destroying many priceless scluptures because they were done by other religions.

Both think that political opponents are worth killing. (palin's 2nd amendmant solutions?)

Both are willing to destroy their own country rather than accept that the people want a direction other than their own)

Both despise education

Both like war

both are religious fanatics

"Denial ... it ain't just a river in Egypt" - Samuel Clemens

Study upon study have proven that torture is ineffective. Why? Because those being tortured are 99.99% more likely to lie and say what those doing the torturing want to hear just to stop torture. Duh. It's not f**king brain surgery.

Most experts, meaning those who do the actual interrogating, have repeatedly stated that torture does not work and does NOT produce any actionable intelligence. Yet, the torture apologists stand on their wee soap boxes while throwing a temper tantrum, whining that torture works, factual evidence be damned. It has been proven time and again that you "attract more flies with honey than vinegar." Yet, the mental giants of the pro-torture faction will piss and moan that it has served us well. Ask the torture apologists for proof and you get ... crickets. Christ, even St. Ronny was against torture and if he were alive today, the teabagging Greedy Old Party would call him a flaming liberal.

When we torture and attempt to justify it by saying, "Well, they do it, too", it further diminishes our standing in this world and makes us no better than those we are fighting (yes, Virginia, there ARE other countries we must share this earth with). It shows us to be weak and cowardly and hypocritical in that we expect every other country in this world to abide by the rules that we too are bound to. Well, guess what folks ... we are not "the bestest country that Dog ever created in the history of the world" and, thanks to Dumbya McFlightsuit, Dickhead Cheney, Rummy Rumsfeld, John "I got my law degree from a Cracker Jacks box" Yoo, and David "Tough Guy" Addington, this clusterf**k proves it (the irony is that it was only John Ashcroft, he of "cover Liberty's boobies with draping" knew that there would be major league issues with the McFlightsuit's Admuddlestration's torture-fest) . Why these low-lifes are not dragged before The Hague for war crimes simply boggles the mind ...

Sorry, but I'll take the word of a majority of experts over those of some bureaucrat or some cowardly CIA agent who destroys evidence or some arm chair general in mommy's basement whacking their miniscule winkies to snuff films.

Chris-749391,

Many thanks for your service. Excellent and very informative post - kudos to you, sir.

Pathetically, the torture apologists will claim that you're not a "real" soldier, or "real" American for that matter.

good post, vfeinstein...

Another interesting point is that Ronnie Raygun, the patron $aint of all the jackboots, also said that true conservatives don't turn society upside down. And yet, what are the Toilet Paperers doing today while they pray to Ronnie?

Chris-749391...thanks for the great post and thanks even more for your service to our country.

@ Chris,

Great insight, Chris.

But I have the feeling the people that don't agree with your statements started scribbling on themselves with crayon midway through the 3rd paragraph. Too many "words". And not enough Bill O'Reilly yelling while talking points are typed out.

If enhanced interrogation techniques really did not work, then why have they been used for literally thousands of years to extract information from the enemy. Simple common sense tells you that if a technique did not work it would surely have gone by the wayside after so many years...

And the reason that we no longer torture (in theory) is that we now know that it doesn't work. Someone being tortured will eventually admit to anything. It is a very unreliable technique. If it is really such a good idea, why don't we allow our police departments to waterboard suspects? What if the person being waterboarded really DOESN'T know the information being sought? Apparently, our government will just keep torturing until he makes up something that will satisfy his captors.

Define "torture". What did this "torture" of these thugs consist of, anyway? .... Hiding the Koran on them? ... Taking their stuffed animals away? ... Having little dogs bark at them?? WOOF WOOF!!

Most Americans might not think of a dog as being torture, but its all a matter of culture. A dog wouldn't bother me at all, but threaten me with a big snake, for instance, and I'll admit to killing Lincoln and passing Manhattan Project secrets to the Soviets.

Both despise education

ThomasBlue ... great post, but I think the hatred of education is the central point. The taliban and fanatical Christians fear education above all else because they know that they can't control people who are capable of thinking for themselves. Their power only holds when people are ignorant and terrified of the future.

Torture smorture. It's not enhanced interrogation it's not torture. It's water boarding. No limbs were cut off. No burns or cuts. No whips or rubber hoses. Not going to let you highjack the definition. If water boarding is torture so are Barrack Hussein Obama's stammering campaign speeches/lies. In both cases the individuals subjected to them just wants it to end. I see the 51 percenters are out in force today.

@ Svenolafson

Torture smorture. It's not enhanced interrogation it's not torture. It's water boarding. No limbs were cut off. No burns or cuts. No whips or rubber hoses. Not going to let you highjack the definition

I have a feeling you'd be SQUEELING a different tune if you were forced to experience it yourself and I imagine you know that - so either you are a troll or a lame apologist.

On the even lamer hypothetical that you actually beleive what you said above, what would you think torture is exactly? You seem to think that torture has to result in lasting physical harm to be torture. If you'll sign a waver, I promise not to do anything that would cause you long term physical impairment while we test your hypothesis that it isn't torture if it doesnt' cause physical harm...

Don't Be A Moron,

"I have a feeling you'd be SQUEELING a different tune if you were forced to experience it yourself ..."

This reminds me of the challenge Keith Olbermann gave to Sean Insannity ... Insannity was preening that waterboarding wasn't torture so Olbermann announced on air that he would give Insannity's charity of choice $1,000 for each minute Insannity was waterboarded ... of course, Insannity's a loud-mouthed, cowardly cretin and never responded ...

I'm willing to bet my next year's salary that NONE of the torture apologists would last a millisecond being waterboarded ... such "tough guys" they are ...

Thomas Blue,

Thanks - I think we can safely say that the Toilet Paperers (I like that!) ignore that when they get down on their knees in worship to Raygun, they "conveniently" forget that he raised taxes multiple times, drove up the deficit to historic proportions, was against torture, and was for nuclear nonproliferation.

If nothing else, it proves not only do they cherry-pick the crap out of everything, but will try their damnedest to revise history ... again, facts be damned!

Reagan was too moderate for today's christo-taliban tea party. He actually worked with Democrats to get his legislation passed. Novel concept, at least by current standards.

The question posed: if torture doesn't work, how come it has been practiced for thousands of years?

I could ask the same question about religion. And the two have been well connected over those years.

It obviously fills a need. Why do bullies beat up weaker kids on the playground? They don't get anything from it. Oh yeah, it makes them feel good.

Why do we tolerate homosexual rape in our prisons? We're going to 'give them what they deserve'.

When we watch a movie with a real bad guy in it, why is it disappointing to us to see him just get shot and die quickly? We like to watch him suffer first, that feels better.

Violence is like sex for some people. It just hits the spot. Makes them feel powerful. Gets them off.

Why do people do it? Shortest answer: psychosis, brought on by emotional retardation.

Why do people support it? Same reason.

I was watching countdown when Keith made the offer to Hannity. I told my wife that my bet would be within 10 seconds hannity would swear that he shot Lincoln, started the French freakin revolution and personally nailed Jesus on the cross. Hannity is such a weaselly little piss ant, he is beneath contempt.

I was in Cordoba, Spain a few months ago, HQ of the inquisition for centuries. Lots of preserved torture devices there. The most common: various sorts of masks, ingenuously designed to let the inquisitor cut off the air flow to the 'heretic'.

I think the inquisitors would've been offended to hear that they weren't really torturing these people.

They also loved making people go through their ordeals naked, which was also part of the regimen at Guantanamo Bay. I'm sure JDinSD and Roy Wilson can give us good 'reasons' for that, which have nothing at all to do with perversion...

Doesn't matter that it didn't work, the Republicans demand a pound of flesh from their religious enemies!

Bush and Cheney War Criminals and deserving of life in prison.

if torture doesn't work, how come it has been practiced for thousands of years?

...because it seems like it ought to work. And because it makes people confess.... Whether or not they've actually done something. Also, honestly, I'm sure that it's easy to take out a lot of anger on somebody. People were and are really upset and angry about 9/11, and rightly so. Wouldn't it be nice to take out all the rage and fear and hate you felt on someone who you felt represented that tragedy? Or any number of subsequent tragedies? ...And you could do it all under the pretense of national security?

It's easy for me to see why so many people are pro-torture. It's theraputic. ...but that doesn't make it any less barbaric and awful.

Mission accomplish, Osama is dead, weatherboarding works, I'm glad Democrats come to the conclusion that harsh interrogatories help to find Osama, now we must give some credit to Bush . It is time for Obama be honest and share with Bush some of the credit, after Bush got the information that lead to kill Osama. Bunch of sissies when our country is in risk we can be weak ,3000 people die , 3000 reasons to use harsh interrogatories.

I just read that they waterboarded a prisoner 183 times? ...hmmm, 183 times...gee, what does that tell us? To me, waterboarding must not be that bad...he lived through the experience unless he succumbed and died when they did this to him on the 184th time.

Hey, I'm all for getting as much intelligence out of these terrorists as possible...and the tactics that we use should not be revealed to the public for our evaluation of whether they're right or wrong...when that happens, our enemies also receive this info as well.

People are supposed to live through torture, juanita. A person could be stabbed in the arm 183 times and live through it. If you kill someone, they can't tell you their country's secrets.

juanita d- If its not so bad, why wouldn't Sean Hannity do it for charity. No cojones, that's why!

oskar - Of course, Bush should get credit! War crimes against humanity, an economy left in shambles, sky rocketing unemployment, wacko SCOTUS nominees and the Iraq (thousands dead) sham and Afghanistan fiasco. Hows that for credit? OBL wasn't even on Bush's radar screen because "he wasn't important anymore and hiding in a cave", so no credit, not even a shred for OBL's demise. You da weenier, get some cojones and brains.

Thomas Blue "@ROY WILSON-336103 Perhaps the psychotic twits who represent you should do thei f'in jobs."

In my experience, when someone resorts to profanity, it's because of either a lack of education or an inability to structure a rational argument. In either case, you have no credibility.

Since agreement with your beliefs is what defines education and rationality in your mind, your pronouncement that TB has no credibility is little more than the self-righteous calling themselves good: essentially meaningless.

Whomever would already agree with you, will agree with you. Hooray?

Quoting all the nannies who want me to stop smoking, drive 55 mph in the middle of the desert, stop eating bacon and pay for health coverage I don't need: "If it saves just one life, wouldn't it be worth it?"

Yes, denver bill, it would be worth it. Hell, as far as I'm concerned, it would be worth it for entertainment value alone after watching KSM sawing off Daniel Pearl's head. Waterboarded 183 times? Boo-hoo! After they finished with that, he should've been drawn and quartered.

After reading what all these crybaby hand-wringers on here have to say, I worry how we will ever defend our own country against these cave people when the day comes, as it surely will if the spineless libs continue to be in charge.

So, let me get this straight: you think that it would be a good thing to take an 'enemy', tie him up to four horses, each to a different limb, make straight cuts across his body, and then pull him apart for entertainment --- and they are the cave people?

Do you ever listen to the things you say?

Denver, it isn't worth it if it saves a thousand lives. BTW, you do need health coverage. You just might not know it yet. Just like you know nothing about living a moral life. But keep going to church. Keep giving them your money and listening to their nonsense.

IBChuck,

We will have to agree to disagree. In response to your particulars:

1. The lives of me and my family are worth more to me than the discomfort of someone who has vowed to kill us just because we were fortunate enough to be born American.

2. I have health coverage. I just don't want to pay for yours.

3. You know nothing about how I live my life, just as I know nothing about how you live yours. I hope yours is as good or better than mine. And I'm sure your view of morality is different than mine.

4. I believe in God much more than I believe in religion. How about you?

5. I will continue to give my money to people and causes that I consider worthy, and I encourage you to do the same.

2. I have health coverage. I just don't want to pay for yours.

Well, guess what? You ARE paying for other people's healthcare when you pay for your own. The cost of charity care is part of the bill that you pay when get you a medical test or go into the hospital. Wouldn't it be much better if EVERYONE had health insurance so that you didn't have to pay for someone else's care? You'd think that the GOP would love that concept.

cheney...the world's only living heart donor..

F--k the Hague.

If we were to disbar every lawyer who told a lie then we would have no lawyers or judges. Few judges are seated who were not at one time an attorney.

Part of your reasoning is correct. A person who is tortured "without limits" will eventually say what they believe the person torturing them wants to hear even if they don't know the correct answer. However, for most subjects of torture the psychological and pain threshold is low and they will talk quickly. Verifying what is divulged is simple. Repetitive questioning and comparing answers against previous statements or known facts help interrogators evaluate the information collected. There are, however, more advanced techniques to verify information but nothing clandestine. Few if anyone posting comments here are privileged to the psychology and steps involved with torture. Limits are important. If you study torture, especially as an applied science, then you learn more about it. The same can be said for any study. Torture doesn't alway work but it does work most of the time. When applied as a science, a very measurable or reassuring quality of torture is that when it doesn't work it almost always obvious. Torture as most people know it is for revenge, punishment, sadistic pleasure or other evils. It is tough to work past such deeply rooted opinions of torture.

bjnalaska: While I'm sure what you say is probably true, for me the question isn't whether torture works or not, but rather is it something the US should be doing? The torture techniques we used are very tame by historical standards and apparently produced some useful intelligence, but they still undermined our claims to the moral high ground.

I don't care if these scum are hurt after blowing up our buildings and people, but I don't want to descend to their level. I want us to be better than them.

@bjnalaska

If you really think that the way forward in interrogating uncooperative detainees is torture, you really should read about the program the FBI used- I think they still do. Incredibly effective, without torture and usually pretty quick. You seem several notches above Bill,Bob, and Roy so maybe it isn't wasted on you. In short, their program consists of isolating the prisoner from all contact with anyone except one designated interrogator. That is the ONLY person this person will ever see until interrogation is finished whether it's days, weeks, or months. This person talks to him in a non-threatening way and builds a personal relationship with him. He asks and talks about their families, childhoods, pets, etc...He makes it clear that he is the only person this prisoner will see. This interrogator becomes the prisoners whole world. There is no one else. The interrogator tries and eventually succeeds in convincing the prisoner that he is there to help him and wants to help him but can only do it if the prisoner talks to him. All of this may sound pretty Hollywood, but it has proven effective many, many times over a long period of time, including with hardened terrorists. The prisoner usually begins talking in 3 days or less and the method has been stunningly successful if the interragator is good.

bjnalaska:

Wow, that's rich. Stunningly successful, huh? Oh, fantasy is such a nice place to be. Just one example from WWII: French and Spanish resistance fighters faced torture by the Nazis and the Fascists in Spain. They were trained to lie strategically under those circumstances, to draw them into chasing shadows, and to actually disrupt their own activities through misdirection. Reported to have worked very well. (I would say 'stunningly successful', if only to match your hyperbole).

You can almost always make people talk. You can almost never make them tell the truth.

If you want to believe that you or anyone else is 'past' torture for pleasure or revenge, you are just fooling yourself. Take a look at all these posts from the people who support torture in this country. They are pretty obviously into the pleasure and revenge aspects of the whole thing.

SURE!! I'll bet you are a CHICKEN HAWK who never served your country for one minute .

I'll also bet that everyone who lives near you avoids you like you do the truth.

Rueters is MSM, Conservatives who quote MSM are RINO's...all mouth and no vote .

Senility is a terrible disease made more terrible when care givers allow their charges to wander the internet w/o supervision.

Agree totally, sleep deprivation, interrogation for hours and days is commonly known as marriage not torture. Everything I have ever read about interrogation techniques during WWII, they used their heads and did not lay a finger on the prisoner.

So answer me this, were the Japanese officers that were hanged after WWII for use of waterboarding innocent? Or is it only acceptable when "your" side does it?

When the GOP takes 8 years to investigate & turns up nothing then it seems reasonable for those who have a sense of Patriotism & RESPONSIBILITY to conduct something OTHER than another SHAM.

BUSH had all the time in the world to investigate...

but as a dyed in the wool chicken hawk...

he had no stomach for it knowing he COULD spend the REST OF HIS LIFE behind BARS

for usurping the LAWS of THIS great nation.

Jeez, Crusher, throw yourself under a train, OK?

Oh yeah, love this one. The symbolic reversal is delicious. Criticizing the methods used by the witch hunters is ... a witch hunt! Oh yeah.

So, am I a racist if I criticize people for lynching blacks?

Disagree, killing osb was akin to shooting a rabid dog before it bites again.

If they could have shot Osama bin Laden back in late 2001/early 2002, it would have saved 10s of 1000s of innocent lives; those lives lost are on Dick Chaney and Dubya's hands.

Lets hope you never have to connect the battery in your car. Red is HOT (positive) black is cold (negative)

You left out one word: "suspected" terrorists. Many innocent people were subject to that torture. Are you saying that you would torture how many innocent people to get to one terrorist in order to save one American life?

Why not name just one innocent person for us.

@ Frank, I don't have to. You should know that hundreds of prisoners where released because they were determined to be of no threat--not terrorists (at least before they were tortured). Don't be niave. Do your homework. There are testimonies to be found on the Net and the testimony of Americans who had a hand in it . Read about the details of Abu Ghraib.

More than that, the Bush guys admitted that they just threw out a dragnet to see if they could get some real fish in it. Do you remember those reports? Tenant saying that probably only a small percentage would turn out to be 'of value'.

SO FRANK GRUDEN is an AMERICAN TRAITOR, for giving the ENEMY the instructions that are completely WRONG !

ARREST this guy right-away & hook up the battery the correct way....

ZAP him until he gets smarter or pleas for his life...

and when it's over

DEPORT THE SCUM, take his passport & rescind his citizenship for being a TRAITOR !

Connecting wires to prisoners is what a lot of latin american thugs did to people; most of them got away with it with our help and it wasn't until some nuns were raped and killed did anyone go on trial.

No hurry to bring anyone up on charges of crimes against humanity although that certainly is what our aggressive war in Iraq seems to have been; a "pre-emptive strike" that killled many 1000s of people.

@goprodious, you got two things right on your post. The dinosaur for the Republican Party (or the Tea Party) and the upside down stars, symbolizing Satan. The Repubs turned their stars over long ago, and seems few people noticed. If you listen and watch long enough and THINK about it, you will see that the Repubs esoterically broadcast their intentions and purpose. Remember Operation Iraqi (OIL) Liberation? Remember the Project for a New American Century (the paper has since been taken off the Internet)?