yeah, and the christain church has only killed millions since it gained power in Rome 1700 years ago...but my church called "Heartsong," just outside of Memphis, we had our muslim neighbors over for thanksgiving dinner back in 2010, as they were waiting for the rec. center was being build they used our church for their prayer services. They are great friends of ours and will continue to be. Odd isn't it, a southern church actually gets it and knows the meaning of "love thy neighbor"?

Anyone who uses Christian wrongdoings as an excuse to allow bigotry against Christians IS a bigot not qualified to even speak on this topic. It's amazing that people who quick to go after religious bigots are usually ones themselves.

nice throwing in the sex with goats things, does your bigotry run so deep you have to make stories up just to make yourself better? or atleast feel better?

i can say what i want about christians, first since i am one, second since its a free country and lastly i question anyone who comes in the name of GOD, as ordered by Jesus himself..people who actually read the Word, can understand it.

I googled the crime, and it does appear that it was an 'honor killing' for not following strict Muslim customs. The murderer is now claiming 'mental issues' from having lived under Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

Here's a link;

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2011/05/rahim_alfetlawi_shoots_stepdaughter_jessica_mokdad_for_not_obeying_islam.php

Most Westerners have never learned a key tenet of Islam that explains much of its treatment of women.

In Islam, if a man has daughters and they all grow to be devout muslims, the father is guaranteed entry to paradise. The father could live like a heathen, but his good muslim daughters are his ticket in.

Men have a religiously-vested interest in their daughters "behaving"- aside from the loathing of women in general. The real goal in so-called honor killings is to ensure the father's place in heaven- not the family's honor.

How is any of this "love thy neighbor" but i think i know where this is leading, what would Jesus do?...if your thoughts involve weapons, foul words, i doubt jesus would approve, pete cut off the ear of the soilder, and did Jesus take up a sword to defend himself? did he act hateful? He knew why they were tere and took the ear and heal the man that was taking him away for trial and death. I know none of you want to hear that, because this isn't about God, This isn't about rightiousness for the sake of saving others...this is just hate..Satan would be proud.

James Griffin-302437-330428

Well, we Christians may not be much, but at least we don't murder our children with rocks, beat our wives to within an inch of their lives, and then go out back and have sex with the goats...

Our GOD calls that kind of behavior "Abomination", I guess theirs calls it reasonable and acceptable...

Who do you think you're kidding? Christians murder children in the name of religion and in fact there are many instances in the bible demanding just that. The bible is replete with killings, wife beatings, infanticide, genocide and many other horrific atrocities. If you don't believe Christians are just as capable of heinous acts in the name of supernatural worship as Muslims you apparently aren't aware of the Dark Ages. Burning women as witches, stoning and torturing atheists, maiming of heretics. Please, it is ludicrous for you to even suggest such a thing since history is littered with atrocities committed int he name of Christianity. OH, and you can be sure many Christian shepherds went out back with the animals as well, not that it has any relevance to the topic.

Your (Christian) God does not call those things abominations, he demands them as tribute to his holy awesomeness on many occasions. Just check your bible and history books if you don't believe it.

First. let me state that I am NOT an ardent supporter of Israel's current government and policies regarding settlements in the West Bank, which I believe are both illegal and immoral, and I would love to see AIPAC banned. Having established that, let me inform everyone that several years ago, Israel and Hezbollah engaged in hostilities in southern Lebanon. During this conflict, thousands of Arab Muslims in Dearborn came out and energetically rallied in support of Hezbollah. I would like to remind you all that Hezbollah is an organization that has attacked and killed American citizens. They hijacked a cruise ship in the Mediterranean and pushed a crippled old American in a wheelchair over the side to drown. They hijacked a TWA plane, forced it to land at the Beirut airport, then beat to death a young American seaman on board and dumped his body onto the tarmac. Hezbollah bombed the barracks in Beirut and killed over 240 young marines, yet these mouthbreathing Quran thumpers are out in force in Dearborn yelling their support for this murderous, anti-American organization. So what do you expect a lot of us to think? Does this make us Islamaphobic because we don't like people who either profess hate against us, or say and do nothing against those who do express such feelings? Seems illogical to me that I should "tolerate" those who hate me. If Mr. Dawud Walid really wants to understand why so many in this country don't trust Muslims, perhaps he and his brethren should stand in front of a large mirror and take a good, long and hard look at themselves.

Thats because ignorance is bliss, and almost everyone of these talkbackers is guilty of it.It was a honor killing, and MSNBC doesnt mention that the other speakers are x Muslims and x slaves of Muslims... but thats always left out as Muslims write their own history, no matter if it relates to the truth..

Pamela Geller is the publisher of Atlas Shrugs.com and executive director of the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI) and Stop Islamization of America (SIOA). She is the author of Stop the Islamization of America: A Practical Guide to the Resistance (WND Books) and The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War on America with Robert Spencer (foreword by Ambassador John Bolton), (Simon & Schuster). She is also a regular columnist for World Net Daily, the American Thinker, and other publications.

Robert Spencer is the director of Jihad Watch and the author of twelve books, including two New York Times bestsellers, The Truth About Muhammad and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) (both Regnery). His latest book is Did Muhammad Exist? An Inquiry Into Islam's Obscure Origins (ISI). Spencer has led seminars on Islam and jihad for the United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the U.S. Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.

Simon Deng is the former slave from Sudan and leader of the Freedom walk Simon Aban Deng is a refugee from Sudan and a survivor of child slavery. He is a passionate activist who recently trekked 300 miles from United Nations headquarters in New York City to the Capitol in Washington, D.C., to call for an end to slavery and genocide in Sudan.

Nonie Darwish is the president of Former Muslims United and the author of The Devil We Don’t Know: The Dark Side of Revolutions in the Middle East (Wiley); Cruel and Usual Punishment: The Terrifying Global Implications of Islamic Law (Thomas Nelson); and Now They Call Me Infidel: Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel, and the War on Terror (Sentinel).

James Lafferty is the leader of the Virginia Anti-Sharia Taskforce (VAST). The mission of the Virginia Anti-Shariah Task Force is to oppose and assist others in resisting the implementation of the radical, barbaric and anti-Constitutional Shariah law in Virginia or anywhere in America.

Michael Coren hosts The Arena with Michael Coren on Canada’s Sun News TV every weeknight at 7pm ET. He is also a weekly columnist, published every Saturday, with the Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton and Winnipeg Sun and The London Free Press, and in more than a dozen other daily and weekly newspapers across Canada. He is also a columnist for Women's Post, The Catholic Register, The Landowner and The Interim. He is the best-selling author of thirteen books, including biographies of GK Chesterton, HG Wells, Arthur Conan Doyle, JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis.

David Wood is a Christian activist and missionary. He has degrees in philosophy and biology and is currently pursing a Ph.D. in the philosophy of religion. He is a leader of the Acts 17 Apologetics Ministry, which has sued the City of Dearborn for its free speech rights after the city endorsed Sharia restrictions on Christian proselytizing and arrested several members of his group for talking about Christianity with Muslims.

Magdi Khalil is a Coptic Christian political analyst, researcher, author and executive editor of the Egyptian weekly Watani International. He is also a columnist for Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper, London, a free-lance writer for several Arabic language newspapers, and a frequent contributor to Middle East broadcast news TV. Khalil has also published three books and written numerous research papers on citizenship rights, civil society, and the situation of minorities in the Middle East. He is one of the most prominent advocates of human rights in Egypt. He focuses in his writings on minorities, including Copts in Egypt.

Robert Muise is the co-founder and senior counsel of the American Freedom Law Center. He is an expert in constitutional law. The last twelve years of his law practice has been dedicated to defending religious liberties, the freedom of speech, and the right to life in state and federal trial and appellate courts all across the country. More recently, Mr. Muise has been involved in numerous cases defending American freedoms against the growing threat of sharia. Prior to starting his constitutional law practice in 2000, Mr. Muise served thirteen years as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps.

Darwin Jiles was a close friend of Jessica Mokdad who offers firsthand testimony to the fact that Jessica was a victim of Islamic honor killing.

WAKE up, they ALL need kicked out of this country and Europe back to the caves in the desert where they belong

Different:

It is clearly stated in the hadith, and was practiced for 1500, that, if one declares apostasy, or if they are declared atheists, whether male or female, they are to be put to death. This is in the Sharia code. If you support the fundemental practice of Islam, do you believe that Muslims can practice as it is written? Can they lie in wait and kill unbelievers wherever they find them? There is no regard for the lives and property of the unbelievers in Islam.

They encourage the conversion to Islam and kill those who leave it. It is a shamefully bigotted doctrine. I find it ironic that Muslims declare others who defend themselves from this aggressive cult, to be the bigots.

It's easy to find the imperatives to kill apostated and to kill subjugate, tax, plunder, or rape/enslave the widows of the dead unbelievers. Mohamad was a 7th century Arabian warlord. The religion and its sharia laws are indefensible from a modern secular standpoint.

Nice thought Jeff, and which religion do we kick out after them? I am sure you have a nice long list, along with the skin colors you want returned to their homelands.....get the point?

Phobia, phobia phobia... Sickening. Islamophobia. Homophbia. Whateverphobia. BS! Looks like the MSM is just doing their job of spreading the standard propaganda of don't fear the "freak(er)"

Muslim countries that live in "peace" are ruled by the fear that if anyone speaks against their rulers or religious leaders, they will hunted down and executed... To live under those conditions is not the true definition of peace. Islam is a theocratic method of governance. And as with ALL methods of theocratic rule, fear of some godlike being is paramount to its success. America is hated, both from within & without, by these groups, as well as many in our very own political & government circles. Americans unite! For the third peril of George Washington's vision is soon to unfold...

Ye who is without sin shall cast the first stone. All religion from the earliest period of mankind is based on personal faith. Faith, to the individual, is as personal as his devotion to community, morals and family. That same personal devotion is always at war with our natural instinct for survival in knowing that there is safety in numbers.

Throughout history, we most often sacrificed our deep-seated personal beliefs for that natural instinct of safety in numbers. That is what allowed devious men to pretend to lead our churches and governments by first seeming to support our values and later horribly distorting those same values. Our natural instincts often lead us to vigorously defend such institutions even as we are fully aware that those institutions now practice extremes far beyond our own values.

Such devious men led the starving and suffering multitudes in old Russia to embrace Marxism and Communism as the future Soviet Union. The concept itself held great promise and may have succeeded if not for the greedy and selfish nature of those in power that sabotaged and corrupted the very system they initiated.

Such devious men led the very intelligent and enterprising German people with the false premise of racial superiority over the people of the rest of the world. Such superiority demanded the eradication of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, blacks and others with mass murder and torture at the hands of Nazi German government.

Such devious men allowed Bin Laden to abuse Sunni Islam's religion to a war of terror and atrocities against the infidels of the west to kill thousands of innocent people and shame true believers.

Such devious men have allowed the first church of Christ to shroud their greatest ministers in gold and pageantry to be held in the highest esteem as true speakers of God. They hold vast temples of gold and a glorious city of the most elaborate buildings to be declared a separate nation. Their highest priest is to be addressed as "His Holiness", kissed on his ring of gold and be obeyed without question as his is proposed as the true Word of God. He travels in a very extravagant and bullet-proof vehicle called the "Pope-Mobile".

How is this all justified as the history of Christ ( the Son of God ) traveled on a lowly ass in robes like the poor. His only accompaniment was 12 poor fishers of men dressed in the same fashion. His many followers traveled at His side in mere sandals or bare feet covered with soil of the earth.

Many so-called Christians are now taught that God wants us to be rich in worldly goods. We are taught that we are to despise those in need as lazy bums that only wish to redistribute our wealth as they lie in luxury just waiting for the next exorbitant welfare or unemployment check.

We have been conditioned by our natural instincts of survival to belong to the point of believing that we are a Christian nation despite historic records to the contrary. We are conditioned by devious men that ours is a socialist and engorged Government that attempts to provide for the poor, ill and elderly that must be reduced to a much smaller government that outlaws equal rights for women, homosexuals, minorities and all others that disagree with our distorted views of religion.

Resist your barbaric animal instincts of prehistoric times and ask yourselves these questions. Does such policy most resemble the loyal followers of Nazi Germany, the misguided followers of Osama Bin laden and Communist leaders of the old Soviet Union? Does such policy spit in the face of the teachings of Christ or our brave forefathers that risked everything in revolution to fight for freedom. We have risen far above such barbaric behavior. I have no wish for devious pretenders as leaders of men to take me back to an uncivilized era.

Most of these posts are drawing religious comparisons.

Islam is an all encompassing system made to shape and govern all aspects of the follower's lives. Comparing it to Christianity, Buddhism, or any other religion is comparing apples to potatoes.

Shariah translates as The Straight Path and is supposedly the perfect expression of divine will and justice to all Muslims. There can be no deviation from Shariah; to do so is punished severely. Death is a commonly prescribed punishment. Honor killings are practiced widely in fundamentalist Muslim countries and now we are seeing them here. Several posts say honor killings are ignored by American law enforcement, that our laws seem secondary to Shariah. I would hope this is not the case but, given our unfortunate way of attaching political correctness to everything, cannot be ruled out.

Jihad is obligatory, it is the duty of all Muslims to further its extension into non-Muslim lands. The subjugation of women is also a precept of Shariah. We need, as a nation, to decide if we really wish to have the shadow of this cruel legal system as part of what governs us because that is the long term goal of Islam and their fifth column, The Muslim Brotherhood.

My personal view is this, we have no need of another spreading cancer to go along with our immigration problems and our all too partisan gridlocked political system. Don't punish all Muslims, just be rigorous and unforgiving with those who seek to undermine this nation.

This was not an "honor killing" it was a simple attempt by a piece of scum to escape the fact that he raped an brutalized his own step daughter.

That these GOP "leaders" would want to hide a very real fact, women are being incestuously attacked, is not surprising. Its much more flamboyant to blame this murder on Islam and to attack an entire culture than it is to attempt to actually help women who are being attacked by family members. By blaming a culture, the GOP doesn't have to actually do anything which would help women.

Hypocrisy is everywhere in this country. It's ok to say that this country was founded on Christian values so christain and anti-gay laws are ok. Yet, laws based on other religions are not ok. How about laws that are based on human rights and we leave religion in the churches. Sound fair?

From the article: "I think firstly we have to better expose who these anti-Muslim bigots are as well as their funders," said Walid. "We believe that the Islamophobia that permeates our country is being pushed by a well-organized, highly-funded network."

Thought I'd correct it: "I think firstly we have to better expose who these (terrorists) are as well as their funders," "We believe that the (repeated terror attempts) that permeates our country is being pushed by a well-organized, highly-funded network."

There. Much more realistic sounding and believable! Sorry Muslims.

Cassandra, civil rights groups and the local prosecutors are staying away from this because it's a new improved form of race-baiting by scum like Pam Geller.

Well, fine then, Tetra...let's have the Islamic groups AND civil rights advocates speaking out against honor killings themselves. Then you can support them by saying that the honor killers are the real scum. That would show Pamela Geller a thing or two. And I would HOPE that prosecutors are not staying away from murder cases for any reason.

I grew up near fort Carson, colorado. I have known first generation Japanese Americans, Korean Americans, Vietnamese, etc. And I can say that the first generation Muslim American children are just going to drive their parents crazy. The parents that are from these other countries, try very hard to raise their children the proper way, depending on their customs in their country. The small children, growing up here are so Americanized within 10 years you cannot tell that they ever came from another country. My next door neighbors are from Laos. And a few days ago, the father was following the Americanized daughter out to her car, yelling at her in Laotian. She got in her car, started it, and said, "Dad. Shut up." And she drove off. He just shook his head and went back into the house. Just as German Jewish people came in in the 20s and 30s, their first geneation American children drove them crazy. Any Muslims in this country will have the very same problem. Within two generations, one will not know what religion these children are.

Just did the research. This IS A HONOR KILLING CASE.

The 20-year old was shot by her stepfather at her grandmother's house y after she left home and stop wearing a niqab. He shot her in the head and told police it was an accident. Every news report said it was an honor killing.

Certain "groups" are more concerned that muslims will be viewed in a negative light as cases like these get coverage. Says to me they are more concerned about saving the face of Islam rather than muslims who need their help.

Misplaced priorities.

I defend one's right to their beliefs, why would someone lie and say that an honor killing was actually molesting/raping his step daughter? I would think he would say..."Honor Killing?..OH YES HONOR KILLING, YES THAT'S IT..ty i might live thru prison now." The limits of one's right to their faith is within our laws, this is the same fear tactics that extremists use against us, we cannot become what hates us by hating them, wars have been started over less.

Cassandra, more than likely, it was a honor killing. If not, the concept of the protest should be supported as you have suggested.

The objection to Geller's conference is that she is a well known bigot. She is supported financially by groups who are afraid of Muslim minority get a voice in this country to present their view points peacefully and honorably. Honor killing is a tragedy that only happens in the most back warded and uneducated sectors of the society in middle east.

I have no problem with people following whatever religion they want. I could really care less about someone's religious beliefs so long as their beliefs did not impact on others. That said, the problem with Islam is that it is not just a religion, it is also a political system. In Islam there does not seem to be a way to have a separation of church and state because they seem to see them as one and the same. This is the real danger. If Muslims want to practice their faith fine, I have no problem with that. However, do not start pushing for your religious Sharia law to be considered in the courts in this country. We have a separation of church and state for very good reason, it is because or founding fathers saw the dangers and undesirable outcomes of allowing religion to to dictate the rules for society as whole. I do not care what you do yourself so long as your actions to do not have a negative impact on others or infringe on the rights of others in any way. If Muslims want to be fully accepted and have people stop fearing them, then they need to do two things. First, they need to keep their religion out of politics and second, they need to start being far more vocal in denouncing the extremists in their midst. It is one thing to say that not all Muslims are like the extremists, but your silence is taken as consent for what they are doing. If average Muslims truly disagree with the extremists then they need to start speaking out and stop coming up with excuses not to. If you think that speaking out will put you in danger from these extremists so you are willing to sit there silently and let them do what they do, then you are part of the problem. Only when mainstream Muslims start standing up and loudly denouncing the extremists will people start to believe that all Muslims do not share the extremists views. So long as average Muslims stay silent, people will continue to take that as a sign that you have no problem with their actions in the name of your religion and things like this will continue to happen.

If people think this post makes me a bigot or intolerant, too bad. As the old saying goes, the only thing needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. By doing nothing to denounce the extremists they are providing tacit support for their actions. Only by speaking out loudly against them can you demonstrate that you do not agree and think that what they are doing is wrong!!!

some of you on here are full of yourselves.

1 possible honor killing by a Muslim man.

How many people have been murdered in the US in the past month, by persons brought up "Christian". I'd bet it's at least a 20 to 1(or greater) ratio.

Do you all get riled up at all the murders commited in the US by non-Muslims, or are you just looking for a specific group to scapegoat(point your fingers at)?

It doesn't really matter what a person's religion teaches them. Either you respect others enough not to kill them, or you don't.

Then there are those(of ALL faiths) who lose their temper in a fit of rage, and kill someone(sometimes their own family members). Not to mention those who flip out while on drugs, the truly insane, and combat vets who comeback with mental issues.

Islam didn't make that man kill his stepdaughter(and she wasn't his blood, so he could have had personal resentment against her beforehand). He chose to do it himself.

It's more likely he did sexually molest her and wanted to silence, than it ws an honor killing.

This guy has to know that in the US, "honor" killings are murder, and he is likely to be punished for it.

When 'protecting women in Islam' is done by avowed haters of Islam - it's pretty damm clear what thier agenda is. It's far less about saving women than it is about perpetuating the hatred they clearly feel in thier hearts.

When they ignore the facts to create a scenario that meets thier biases and thier bigotry - and proudly proclaim that even though they were not involved in the incident - they 'know the true facts' - they clearly show thier delusions to the world.

Bigots and hate filled people don't 'rescue Islamic believers' - they perpetuate thier hate and bigotry.

Only when mainstream Muslims start standing up and loudly denouncing the extremists will people start to believe that all Muslims do not share the extremists views. So long as average Muslims stay silent, people will continue to take that as a sign that you have no problem with their actions in the name of your religion and things like this will continue to happen.

Excellent post, as usual, JS in SD. Nailed it.

They're handling this the same way that they've been handling the attempt to negate Roe Vs Wade. They start with somehting no one could be for, say murder. They then get a law passed, if you kill a fetus while in the womb during a robbery or some other crime it's an extra penalty. Then the bar slides a bit further. Maybe it's a crimnal penalty for a botched medical procedure. And the bar slides abit further until finally TA-DA! No more Roe Vs Wade. And *ALL* people who are in anyway in favor of a woman's freedom to choose are painted as murders. Same thing here. Who can say they're for "honor killings"? So they broadcaset the idea that this was an honor killing. Seems ike it doesn't fit, but who cares? It's a start and some people will believe it. After that it's the same downhill slide. "Hey, those people who do those honor killing want to build a mosque."

Islam is the only religion that kill in the name of honour !

In Canada the Shafia family is a recent example.

Father , brother & new wife murdered 3 daughters& 1st wife for wearing western clothes & boyfriends !

They are serving life sentences for murder but the motive was dishonouring Allah.

It was Muslims that pointed the police honour killing motive.

The Muslims who follow Sharia will deny this but it is a fact. The precepts are found in the Quran !

Google "The Stoning of Soraya an inconvenient wife "

A true story of an Iranian wife who was stoned to death because she was in the way of her husband's love life.

In Gaza there is a rise in fathers sexually abusing their children & killing them to hide their crime. Google Kawartha Salem "child hanging in a tree". She is a Palestinian writer who writes on this growing trend .

They use the constitution to cry foul but Pamela Geller & Robert Spencer are dead on about this crime & the infiltration of Muslims in the USA & Canada.

Even moderate Muslims speak out about this & Sharia .

Great job JS in SD. You said it very well. One other thing though differing from many religions. One can be raised christian, say they are christian, but then be non christian very easily. If your actions are non christian then you arent really a christian, but merely pretending. However you can be a cold blooded killer and still be Islamic. As the president of Egypt said, it is in the Koran for them to kill the infedel. The infedel being all non Islamics.

Happily not all Islamics believe this, but since it is an actual major branch of the religion that upholds it, you cannot say it isnt part of the religion. I don't know of a single major christian orginization that supports cold blooded murder. Yes there have been times in the past where religion was abused by leaders, but even then if you study history, the followers of christianity didnt usually agree. With Islam its many followers and leaders that believe in murder being required of them, and then the others that dont believe in it remaining silent. In christianity, the leaders are too often like wolves ready to pounce on the one that steps out of line.

Regardless in this case there are too many things pointing at the honor killing, and not enough against. As for the father saying one thing or another proving its not a honor killing??? remember this is the faith whos followers regularly commit suicide for their faith. I doubt going to prison to make sure your faith doesnt look bad even compares to blowing yourself and dozens of innocents up for your faith.

I think its very sad that all of us, atheists, christians, muslim, jewish etc are so willing to hurt others or insult others to prove our point. I have personally met good of each faith, and also bad. The good ones are the only ones worth listening to, wether i agree or not I am more likely to listen to the rational ones.

45charlie--Islam is not the only religion that has adherents which kill in the name of "honor." In certain parts of Texas and its surrounding states, children who are homosexual are killed by their parents and then mourned as "suicides." Or, they are killed in "tragic hunting accidents." Or, they are just killed outright because they are gay--or even if they are suspected to be gay. Little children of around 3-5 are not infrequently beaten or starved because someone gets it in their heads that the child is gay--and the family would be dishonored if anyone finds out.

There are Christian fathers who have killed their daughters for becoming pregnant or being promiscuous. There are Christian fathers who have killed their wives for being unfaithful or because they thought the wives were unfaithful. They have killed them . . . just because. It isn't that long ago that such men got very light sentences because the community believed that it was the fault of the female for driving the male beyond the point of reason. In fact, there was an ex-Marine not long ago who got a sentence of about 8 years for murdering his wife . . . for no reason at all other than that they were arguing.

Here in the US, we jump to the phrase "honor killings"--but, really, we have the same thing. It isn't as institutionalized here as it is/was in the Middle East, but we do still have it, and people do still get off, especially for the "accidental death" or "suicide" of a homosexual child. There's no reason to get that angry with Muslim people--though I do think that they should be a tad more vocal about such cases in order to make it clear that they don't agree--but then again, the more moderate people who don't agree with the honor killings of gay kids don't tend to do much more than shake their heads and avert their eyes. I don't see how this case is much different.

horse pucky. most of these honor killings aren't even muslims anyway. if you did the research you'd find they are usually some mixed hybrid of several religions, one coming to mind of a kurdish christian spinoff killing his daughter for wanting to marry a sunni muslim. look it up.

I live in Dearborn MI. Besides the honor killing part, my concern is why are people from other parts of the country concerned about Islam here in Dearborn. But the 6.5 million people in the Detroit metro area dont blink twice when they see someone who is Muslim? They have been living here for decades and do not push their religion on the rest of the people living here. Unlike Christians, they dont go around trying to convert people. Its funny how the people not from here feel threatened but the ones that do live hear are not concerned. I do know that the Muslims view the US media as propaganda. And I agree with them.

45charlie

Islam is the only religion that kill in the name of honour !

In Canada the Shafia family is a recent example.

Father , brother & new wife murdered 3 daughters& 1st wife for wearing western clothes & boyfriends !

They are serving life sentences for murder but the motive was dishonouring Allah.

Chuck--we spell it honor down here. We have random crazy ass people everywhere that killed people in a Safeway, (imagine the irony), Grocery Store, in post offices, in government offices, law enforcement killing innocents and thugs killing cops. We have honor hilling here too. When a guy kills a guy that owns him cash, surely he doesn't expect the guy to pay when he's dead---but he kills him any way. It's more about machoism than it is religion. Their culture has those people that commit extreme acts of violence, as does ours.

Give us some Canuck sense down here.

Please note instances of honour killing is more often associated with "tribal" practices and not Islam per se as Pam Geller alludes to. I guess it matters not to Pam Geller - the accuracy of her news gathering immaterial while she continues to bash her subject matter.

As always, I implore readers to do own research and not be baited, no matter how convincing the gospel is presented. And from my observation reading through postings here, seems to me many still remain confused with facts behind 9/11 - to brand and hold responsible anyone associated with Islam for the attack is a fallacy - plain wrong and hence losing the argument from the off.

May I suggest a guide list to begin with - two major branches of Islam (Sunni vs @!$%#es) and proceed to observe self profess Islamic states (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Iran) to differentiate them from various Muslim majority states (Indonesia and Malaysia perhaps, which upholds secular law going by respective constitutions) and other variations - a challenge by itself that fuels confusion when it can be seen that Muslims are fighting amongst themselves more than ever, every corner of the globe.

Oh hell! Nothing stirs the crazies like religion. Religion is the best and most fundamental basis for hell raising arguments the world has ever come up with. All crazy as hell, but all brands provide a hellishly crazy basis.

Women, you could relieve us all this claptrap. You see, It's all fundamentally about the saddles innate to you. Men wish to control you, to the extent, they can use your saddles as they wish, and you must acquiesce as per their dictums. It is logical, that since you have the saddles, you should have all the say so in who gets to use 'em and who doesn't, without consequence.

tron you are the one twisting things. i personally know serveral muslims and your view of muslims and what american muslims believe and support are based on ignorance,media scare tactics, and militant everthing like me is Godly and everything different is from satan bible thumpers.

White men did it to the Indians now the Moslems and Mexicans are doing it to the white man.

I couldn't care less about what religion is practiced by others as long as they obey the law of the land which states that murder is a crime. I'm well aware that some religions see women as second rate citizens and that includes Christian and Jewish groups. It should be the choice of these women to stay or go as they chose and if they chose to leave the religious group they belong to it is their right and they should not be prevented from doing so.

But they allow profanity and insulting of the bible in a public school

I live in Dearborn MI. Besides the honor killing part, my concern is why are people from other parts of the country concerned about Islam here in Dearborn.

Scott: Because it is a known fact even in other parts of the country, Christians who live in the area of Dearborn, Michigan do not get the chance to speak. You can go online to any YouTube video that occurs each year during the Arab Festival and see for yourself. Christians in the area have been known not to be allowed to speak on certain streets and so get their first amendment rights violated. Frankly, I'm just shocked that after months of posting Youtube videos, that MSNBC would actually do a story on what is happening in Dearborn, Michigan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nswT9XS5v5g Lebanese American Christian speaking out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUwQVqdOT0U&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLD2276089AA465D7C Christians being denied First Amendment Rights.

If this was truly about the prevention of honor killing and bringing attention to this tragic practice, then they would have included people from the Muslim community as speakers and headliners. You can't do this sort of thing without involving the people it concerns. People from that community know the difference.

I am not a Muslim, nor a Jew, nor a Christian, nor an advocate of any other religion. But I believe in religious freedom; I just hope that people will use their god-given intelligence to see that religion itself is a moral failure and a moral evil.

If a religion approves of "honor killing", that religion should be abandoned.

It is simply astonishing, the amount of paranoid bigotry I find on Newsvine. Are you people real? What century are you from? How many of you know anyone who is Muslim? It's like talking to a wall.

Linda, I don't know where you get your supposed information, but you're simply flat-out wrong. It says in the Qur'an that a man should beat his wife, and specifies the width of the stick with which to hit her. If I need to I'll go dig up the chapter and verse, but maybe someone else on here has it at their fingertips.

There's a book all about how to beat your wife that's a best-seller right now in Saudi Arabia. It's considered the perfect gift to give the new husband-to-be.

And, as others on here have pointed out: yes, men of all religions (and some women, too) sometimes abuse their spouses and/or kids. In NO OTHER RELIGION, however, except Islam, is it encouraged or demanded by the religion.

Do you think that makes a difference? Just look at the numbers world-wide for comparison. How many killings of wives and daughters, under Islam vs under all the other world religions? How many "infidels" killed for not following Islam, vs other religions? How many people killed for "apostasy" (choosing to leave your religion)? How many acts of terror? How many wars started expressly because of religion? The answer to all of these: FAR FAR more for Islam than for ALL other religions put together. It isn't even close.

LMAO... JS, Christianity is also a political system. All religions are political systems, they may profess otherwise, but the evidence is quite clear.

I am one who is qualified to speak here. I live a short distance from Dearborn and I can tell you for a FACT the muslims OWN that city. The police wont even DARE to show up there, unless they are COMMANDED by the muslims to come and take away an American, who DARES tresspass on U.S. Property, which they now believe, and are treated like they own. I have PERSONALLY witnessed journalists, other protesters, PEACEFULLY speaking to the muslims there. Next thing you know, 20 cops show up (no exaggeration) and arrest ALL whom the muslims ORDER them to, NO questions asked, or allowed. THIS is how it truly is in Dearborn, Michigan, from someone who actually KNOWS, and is NOT speculating.

livia-779624

gonna have to call you on that one. Give me the verse that says you can beat your wife. if you are referring to a miswak stick be informed that that is a toothbrush. and yes you can beat your wife (never on the face) with a toothbrush after you have counseled her on the offensive behavior, and refused to share a bed with her, then have an arbitration between the spouses and an advocate from each family determining that the wife is indeed wrong, and then after those 3 measures you can hit her with a toothbrush but only if doing so would make the situation better, if it would make it worse then you are still not allowed. Go look it up.

The police wont even DARE to show up there, unless they are COMMANDED by the muslims to come and take away an American, who DARES tresspass on U.S. Property, which they now believe, and are treated like they own. I have PERSONALLY witnessed journalists, other protesters, PEACEFULLY speaking to the muslims there. Next thing you know, 20 cops show up (no exaggeration) and arrest ALL whom the muslims ORDER them to, NO questions asked, or allowed.

Branxoz: I have often heard stories about Dearborn, Michigan and was wondering if it were true or not. Most people won't believe the Youtube videos and so it is good to hear your facts on what is going on there. I also often heard that since there are so many Muslim cops in the police force, they tend to overlook the honor killings and pass them off as something else. Is this true?

tron you are the one twisting things. i personally know serveral muslims and your view of muslims and what american muslims believe and support are based on ignorance,media scare tactics, and militant everthing like me is Godly and everything different is from satan bible thumpers.

Linda: I also personally know muslim men and women as you do. Would I say that all muslims are cold-blooded killers? Absolutely not! In NY, we see all kinds of religions. But what I do find is that those "good" muslims you speak of, can't deliver a few verses in the Quran or the Hadith if their life depended on it. Which is perhaps a good thing..... In other words, I'm saying that they have blind belief......Much like a "christian" who has only attended church as a child and can't get beyond the phrase " God is love". In other words, "babies" in knowledge.

Unhappy, prior to 9/11 the only thing people tied to Dearborn was Ford Motor Company. Of course we are going to see videos of Christians being repressed in Dearborn because the media has to keep support for the war alive. 95% of the Arabs here are from Lebanon and they stick together like a pack of wolves in all sectors of life. If you have a group of them go astray and become christian, they are viewed as turning their backs on their culture. Have you ever heard of Canton MI? Probably not, but if we go to war one day with India, you will. The media can make people believe anything by repeating it over and over and over. They pound negative stuff into our heads to make us hate. Being rite across from Canada and seeing their news broadcasts, you start to see how twisted US news media is.

If we really have to get into the nitty gritty of this situation, then we must also factor in the Ye Olde of Christians as well. Whilst it's not being done SO MUCH, honor killings still happen in Christian households. Try to not forget that for thousands of years, Christians were murdering anyone that wasn't Christian, or who wouldn't convert. Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades? Salem Witch Trials? All of these show how extreme Christianity used to be, and can still be.

Even then, I don't see the same acts coming from Christians that they want from Muslims. I don't see Christians on a broad scale suddenly demanding that extremists stop with honor killing, or blowing up Abortion Clinics, or whatever their frothing zealotic fury drives them forward to do. In fact, I see Christians regularly ignoring the words of their own savior just to drive their own hate and fear forward unto others (Jesus's Message of Love vs. Hellfire and Brimstone).

Does this mean I side with the Muslims on this one? No. I still view the Mosque near the Twin Towers as the "Victory Mosque". I also know what Islam has done unchecked in other countries that allowed it to flourish. But I also know that Christians have abused and misused constantly the "freedom of religion", and now they're mad because Muslims can use it too.

Personally, I wish everyone would stop arguing over whose invisible friend is better, and look at the cold hard facts of whatever case pops up, rather than if it was done with a Bible or a Koran.

branxoz: your full of shyt! Just like the media you capitalized the key words to spread fear. I live IN Dearborn and its FINE! And all the police in Dearborn do is write traffic tickets!

The media can make people believe anything by repeating it over and over and over. They pound negative stuff into our heads to make us hate.

Scott: Except in this case, the media wasn't focusing on this aspect until now. I fail to see how you think we are being influenced to hate muslims. If anything the media has avoided the "bigotry" and the "hate" you speak of about muslims until now. But curtailing someone's first amendment rights is something Christians have known for sometime happening in Dearborn, Michigan. The fact that the arabs are all from Lebanon doesn't make it okay.

Be honest, everywhere else you go, muslims in the media are portrayed as being positive members of the community while Christians are the ones who act like the barbarians.

This has nothing to do with garnering support for the war.

branxoz: your full of shyt! Just like the media you capitalized the key words to spread fear. I live IN Dearborn and its FINE! And all the police in Dearborn do is write traffic tickets!

Scott: If you live in Dearborn, Michigan, then how would you explain the Youtube videos. Maybe for you they are writing out traffic tickets only, because you are not speaking out for Christianity. Until you do that, you will never know how they really behave.

Can't we look within ourselves and find enormous atrocities within our own religion or political beliefs? Do you honestly believe that a Muslim extremist that may kill his daughter to prevent dishonor on his family is any different than a devout Christian that beats his teenage son to death when he finds out his son is gay?

Christians may find the latter as a crime of passion as they find the Muslim a cold blooded killer. The Muslim father that turns his heart against his way-word daughter and forbids his family from ever acknowledging her is as cruel a bastard as a Christian father that does the same to his young lesbian daughter or gay son while proclaiming he is merely a God-fearing man.

Do you find a Muslim extremist a monster because he orders the death of an infidel out of revenge any different from the devout Christian that demands the execution of a convicted killer out of revenge? Both are deranged individuals holding the barbaric power of life and death in their murderous hands.

What is the difference between a father that sacrifices his young with a sacred knife to pay homage to his God and a terrorist that beheads an infidel on a similar alter? None! One is a Christian zealot and the other is a Muslim zealot. Both are featured prominently in their Holy Books as acts of faith by Holy Men.

Unhappy: I am pretty sure that branxoz is not from the area. You wanna know the truth about the Muslims here? Here's some quick info: many but not all are scammers of welfare, medicaid, medicare, social security, taxes, and property insurance claims. They want as much as they can get for nothing! I'm not sure if all that is a Muslim or Lebanese thing. The men are arrogant and reek of cheap cologne. The women are usually nice. They teach their children to love the father more than the mother. They put kitchens in the basement because the upstairs is for show (many house fires because of it), and when they have company they entertain in the the garage because the house is for show. They build enormous gaudy houses and move 10+ people into the house. They believe the more things you have, the better chances you have of getting into heaven. That's the short list.

Unhappy:

If you live in Dearborn, Michigan, then how would you explain the Youtube videos. Maybe for you they are writing out traffic tickets only, because you are not speaking out for Christianity. Until you do that, you will never know how they really behave.

I dont believe in myths. Religion in general to me is just a waist of time. So I guess I wont have a problem in Dearborn.

Scott, there are welfare cheats in every group. Every group of new immigrants faces the same kind of nonsense charges you state here. We are talking suspected murder here, though.

I am puzzled by the civil rights community. You mean a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn is illegal, but honor killing is ok?? I like the stand of Trayvon Martin's parents. There should be a thorough police investigation, and appropriate charges should be filed, if evidence of a crime is found. Many groups had to abandon long practiced customs, when they got to this country. The rule is: You want to live here, no more honor killing.

Beware!!!

Discern and live the truth!!!

Drop all false ideologies.

Own the truth in your hearth.

Obey!!!

JD has it right. We need to speak up about the evils done in our name whether it's as Christians, Muslims, Americans or whatever. Our domestic version of the Taliban is the far right now known as the GOP. If we address this tyranny, other tyrants will have reason to hesitate, whatever their stripe. Boycott the GOP (and don't hang out with idiots who hold and express tyrannical views.......)! On the other hand, if you show your own bigotry in the process, you have consequences. Think for yourselves, People.

I read the comments about this so called religeon and am amazed and worried because many commenters are so uninformed about it. As noted recently in the press, it is permissable to have sex with your wife AFTER she dies for up to six hours...after 7 hours it is a no no.......WTF.....doesn't that in itself tell you EVERYTHING you neecd to know about these people........

Pam Geller is a Jewish extremist with ties to Israeli terrorist settlers - she is no better than the Islamic extremists.

Unhappy-1583758, You hit the nail on the head, concerning honor killings and ANY other type of crime the muslims wish to commit, and if "scott" lives in "Dearborn", then it's another Dearborn, NOT the one in Michigan.

Branox,

You're full of it. Also from the Detroit/Dearborn area, and worked numerous cases in Dearborn. The community was welcoming, helpful and hospitable.

The cops do their jobs just like in any other city.

livia says:

"Linda, I don't know where you get your supposed information, but you're simply flat-out wrong. It says in the Qur'an that a man should beat his wife, and specifies the width of the stick with which to hit her. If I need to I'll go dig up the chapter and verse, but maybe someone else on here has it at their fingertips.

There's a book all about how to beat your wife that's a best-seller right now in Saudi Arabia. It's considered the perfect gift to give the new husband-to-be.

And, as others on here have pointed out: yes, men of all religions (and some women, too) sometimes abuse their spouses and/or kids. In NO OTHER RELIGION, however, except Islam, is it encouraged or demanded by the religion."

Sure livia.

Have you read the Old Testament of the bible?

You can find passages of "God's laws" in the OT, that call for the stoning/killing of disobedient children, adulterers, and those who blasphemy against God.

Both books(Koran and Christian bible) have parts that are horrible, masochistic, and kind of sadistic.

Do most Christians carry out the laws in the OT? No.

Do most Muslims follow the Koran to the letter(especially those living in modern society)? No.

Over a billion Muslims on the planet(and they don't all practice the same or agree on all Islamic ideals), and people want to condemn them all, for the actions of a few.

I guess it's ok to blame all Christians for the actions of their fellow members who commit violent crimes, beat their wives/kids, and pushing Christianity on the rest of us, right?

Remember those "christians" who came to the US, stole from and killed the Natives, and pushed them reservations? What about those "christians" who owned slaves?

I'd say those who profess to be "christians"(lower case c for those hypocrites), have done 1000 times more harm to others on US soil, in the past 200 years.

But go ahead and keep pointing your fingers at Muslims. It averts your acknowledging the lies/killing and greed in your own religions.

(and no, I'm not Muslim nor Christian)

Wow look at all the Arm-Chair Attorneys that have come out of the woodwork today. Let me ask all of you who think you know better than the detectives and prosecutors that worked the Jessica Mokdad case: Where are you keeping your case files???? Because the last time I checked, conspiracy theories from one-sided, politically biased websites couldn't be submitted as evidence!

Rule #1: if you are going to start a political campaign that is a transparent cover for a bigoted, anti-muslim propaganda then at least pick a case that is proven to be applicable for your platform. There are plenty of honor killing cases in the US to choose from. Why not choose one that is unquestionably valid???

DUH! Now your "enemies" are able to cloud the issue with those pesky little things we call facts!

Rule #2: If you insist on ignoring rule #1 then let's dissect the case if we must:

- Why in the hell would any family rather reveal that their father were a child molester over a radical muslim? If they were a truly devout muslim family it is much worse to be seen as a pervert than a jihadist. Men who commit honor killings aren't shy about it. They are proud. So the "logic" that sexual abuse was a cover up just doesn't make sense!!!!

An honor killing is a terrible thing. But once we start attributing that motive to every case of filicide by someone who happens to be Muslim then it will be used as a political tool the way some people claim the "Hate Crime" category is abused today. If Peter Keller had happened to study Islam then I'm sure people would be claiming his murders were honor killings too, but that dude was just effing NUTS!

Rule #3 is for all of the idiots out there who claim to only have a biased against muslims because they "didn't apologize for 9/11":

Get over it. They don't owe you anything unless they were involved or knew about it. How many German or Japanese Americans stop you on regular basis to apologize for the Holocaust and Pearl Harbor? Or better yet, ask your Grandparents how many apologies they witnessed publicly from legal American citizens after WW2! I'll bet they are still holding their breath....

Read your own damn bibles tonight (including Old Testament, because Christianity recognizes that book too!) and make note of all those rules about hitting your wife, owning slaves, eating shellfish. having sex before marriage, masturbation and yes, Holy War!

You can't base your opinion of millions of individuals on the words of an ancient work of fiction, the same way you can't base it on their parent's nationality. If your logic were applied in every case we would all still be Crusaders who own black slaves and kill Jews!!!

omida

The objection to Geller's conference is that she is a well known bigot. She is supported financially by groups who are afraid of Muslim minority get a voice in this country to present their view points peacefully and honorably. Honor killing is a tragedy that only happens in the most back warded and uneducated sectors of the society in middle east.

You are wrong on all accounts...there have been nine recorded Muslim honor killings in the United States and probably several others mislabled domestic violence, secondly she is alerting people to the dangers that Islam is bringing to our shores, you should really start reading the Qur'an and current events such as what is going on in Africa, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and other places where Muslims ar slaughtering, robbing, looting, intimidating , and Harrassing Christians, Muslims are kidndapping young Christian Girls and forcing them to convert to Islam and then marrying them to Muslim men for further abuse..Is this the kind of Muslim minority voice you think about? And Ms Geller is not a bigot...What examples can you produce that lead you to say she is a bigot...everything she says and writes about is nothing but the truth...Are you afraid of the truth?

Linda-3043108

gonna have to call you on that one. Give me the verse that says you can beat your wife. if you are referring to a miswak stick be informed that that is a toothbrush. and yes you can beat your wife (never on the face) with a toothbrush after you have counseled her on the offensive behavior, and refused to share a bed with her, then have an arbitration between the spouses and an advocate from each family determining that the wife is indeed wrong, and then after those 3 measures you can hit her with a toothbrush but only if doing so would make the situation better, if it would make it worse then you are still not allowed. Go look it up

Hey Linda maybe you should do some research on Islamic wife beating...hey wait a minute...I'll do it for your;

It is worth noting how several translators render the key part of this verse:
Pickthall: "and scourge them"
Yusuf Ali: "(And last) beat them (lightly)"
Al-Hilali/Khan: "(and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful)"
Shakir: "and beat them"
Sher Ali: "and chastise them"
Khalifa: "then you may (as a last alternative) beat them"
Arberry: "and beat them"
Rodwell: "and scourge them"
Sale: "and chastise them"
Asad: "then beat them"

Linda-3043108

horse pucky. most of these honor killings aren't even muslims anyway. if you did the research you'd find they are usually some mixed hybrid of several religions, one coming to mind of a kurdish christian spinoff killing his daughter for wanting to marry a sunni muslim. look it up.

it is true that not all honor killings are attributable to Islam, only 91% are...In the US there have been nine Islamic honor killings on record (although many others were probably misdiagnosed as domestic violence),,of those nine the murderers openly stated they killed to preserve their Islamic honor...For example the killing of Sara and Amina Said, two sisters killed by their Muslim father who felt they were becoming too westernized...they wanted to stop wearing the veil and to be able to dress in western clothes and to have a boyfriend of their own choosing...The father made such statements before fleeing the country...

Max^108

Pam Geller is a Jewish extremist with ties to Israeli terrorist settlers - she is no better than the Islamic extremists

Israli terrorist settlers?...ha!...Pamela Geller, unlike Islamic terrorists, has never committed an act of terror or violence, she has never beheaded anyone, never assaulted or destroyed a church, never kidnapped a child for forced conversion,never killed anyone, never advocated the killing of anyone, never looted anyone....all she has done is to spread the truth about Islam...Do you have a problem with the truth about Islam?>

pulsar,

hey what do you suppose beat them lightly means. and of course this is a translation into English. You don't think there are different degrees for that word. in what i have been told from people who have studied the quran for years not just people who looked up random quotes online with no reference source (like the ones you just posted) is that the translation of the arabic word beat in this instance refers to a light swat to the body with no more force than that of a toothbrush. kinda the same as when you swat a toddler to get their attention. but hey, i'm just taking the word of islamic scholars, i'm sure your evangelical christian extremist are much better versed in islam.

In fairness to some Muslims in this country, I can see how frustrating it can be if you are practicing a peaceful brand of Islam. But, you would be very ignorant if you expect people to just accept your word that "Islam" is a peaceful religion.

You can restate that with christianity instead of islam.... just ask Anders Breivikthe guy who killed 40 children for jesus.

Really religion of ALL brands is the problem. Blind faith in anything will lead to corruption and manipulation, the foundations of religion.

He reached back less than half a year ago, find me one in an industrialized nation with that sort of death toll (which is closer to 70, by the way). I hardly doubt you can find any modern mass killings from atheists who killed in the name of a lack of a belief of a god.

@tron-- Ok lets assume your statement is sincere--where are the atheist murderers? Most criminals in fact just say whatever they think they need to. A stance such as atheism is usually beyond them and besides it usually won't help you get off whatevery you got caught doing. Oh and since Buddhists don't believe in a god (as in a big bearded man controlling everthing from somewhere we can't find) do they qualify as atheists? If so then beware that Buddhism is the only major religion that never waged a holy war. In fact there is some connection between theistic religion and the developement of concepts of blasphamy, heresy, and then doing something about it, including torture and murder.

We the corporations? - You can restate that with christianity instead of islam.... just ask Anders Breivikthe guy who killed 40 children for jesus.

In fact Breivik quoted Geller and Spencer extensively in his manifesto.

People like Mike and We the corporations can't distinguish between the perversion of a religion by overzealous followers - or those who use it as a rallying cry to further their own agendas - and the basic tenets of a religion that cannot be argued or denied. If it wasn't religion, then it would be something else - something that represents a way to attain moral superiority. All of us want to believe we're better than the next guy, because it makes us feel good on the inside. It also means we can hurl insults at the next guy without reproach, because, hey, we're morally superior.

That, as I see it, is the "bad" side of religion. It's too vague, it can be twisted, and when it is, the religion as a whole suffers.

In fact Breivik quoted Geller and Spencer extensively in his manifesto.

Shrekk:But Brevivik was not a Christian but rather someone who believed in a Christian "way of life". Even though he claims he is 100% Christian, you can see from his statements below that his life was far from believing in GOD.

I fully support that the Church gains more or less monopoly on religion in Europe (government policies, school curriculum etc at least) in addition to granting the Church several concessions which have been taken from them the last decades.

As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings. Europe has always been the cradle of science and it must always continue to be that way.

Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I’m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe.

And People like David256 can't see that almost all religions and religious institutions are perverse. Religions today are nothing more than a political arms maneuvering for power and money at the expense of those with blind faith.

Ye who is without sin shall cast the first stone. All religion from the earliest period of mankind is based on personal faith. Faith, to the individual, is as personal as his devotion to community, morals and family. That same personal devotion is always at war with our natural instinct for survival in knowing that there is safety in numbers.

Throughout history, we most often sacrificed our deep-seated personal beliefs for that natural instinct of safety in numbers. That is what allowed devious men to pretend to lead our churches and governments by first seeming to support our values and later horribly distorting those same values. Our natural instincts often lead us to vigorously defend such institutions even as we are fully aware that those institutions now practice extremes far beyond our own values.

Such devious men led the starving and suffering multitudes in old Russia to embrace Marxism and Communism as the future Soviet Union. The concept itself held great promise and may have succeeded if not for the greedy and selfish nature of those in power that sabotaged and corrupted the very system they initiated.

Such devious men led the very intelligent and enterprising German people with the false premise of racial superiority over the people of the rest of the world. Such superiority demanded the eradication of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, blacks and others with mass murder and torture at the hands of Nazi German government.

Such devious men allowed Bin Laden to abuse Sunni Islam's religion to a war of terror and atrocities against the infidels of the west to kill thousands of innocent people and shame true believers.

Such devious men have allowed the first church of Christ(Catholic) to shroud their greatest ministers in gold and pageantry to be held in the highest esteem as true speakers of God. They hold vast temples of gold and a glorious city of the most elaborate buildings to be declared a separate nation. Their highest priest is to be addressed as "His Holiness", kissed on his ring of gold and be obeyed without question as his is proposed as the true Word of God. He travels in a very extravagant and bullet-proof vehicle called the "Pope-Mobile".

How is this all justified as the history of Christ ( the Son of God ) traveled on a lowly ass in robes like the poor. His only accompaniment was 12 poor fishers of men dressed in the same fashion. His many followers traveled at His side in mere sandals or bare feet covered with soil of the earth.

Many so-called Christians are now taught that God wants us to be rich in worldly goods. We are taught that we are to despise those in need as lazy bums that only wish to redistribute our wealth as they lie in luxury just waiting for the next exorbitant welfare or unemployment check.

We have been conditioned by our natural instincts of survival to belong to the point of believing that we are a Christian nation despite historic records to the contrary. We are conditioned by devious men that ours is a socialist and engorged Government that attempts to provide for the poor, ill and elderly that must be reduced to a much smaller government that outlaws equal rights for women, homosexuals, minorities and all others that disagree with our distorted views of religion.

Resist your barbaric animal instincts of prehistoric times and ask yourselves these questions. Does such policy most resemble the loyal followers of Nazi Germany, the misguided followers of Osama Bin laden and Communist leaders of the old Soviet Union? Does such policy spit in the face of the teachings of Christ or our brave forefathers that risked everything in revolution to fight for freedom. We have risen far above such barbaric behavior. I have no wish for devious pretenders as leaders of men to take me back to an uncivilized era.

Anders Breivikthe is a sick person, with a mental problem. He is not a representative of christianity or any other religion. Not one christain has stood up for this individual any where on this planet. Please do not say that this delusional madman represented christianity.

So your premise that he is a good comparison is faulty. However Muslims around the world on a daily basis are committing atrocities, that would not be accepted in any civilized nation. Chopping off the head of a Red Cross doctor, and many others, killing fifteen worshippers, Islam is not a peaceful religion. It's a religion of my way or death to you. Burn their Quran and they kill dozens of innocent people, burn a few Bibles and your going to piss off a bunch of Baptists but they are not going to arbitrarily shoot innocent Arabs.

Bullet171 Very good point. How many Muslims denounce the actions of radical Muslims? Perhaps they afraid of the backlash from people within their own community? Many of these same people take no action to confront radical Islam but are very outspoken and quick to point out rogue acts committed non Muslims. Could you imagine what would have if the Pope began to preach the elimination of the infidels or non-believers?

You guys aren't helping your cause, you can't have it both ways.

If terrorists represents Islam instead of Congressman Ellison, then Breivikthe and abortion clinic bombers represents christianity...

BTW, there are plenty of muslims who admonish sharia law and terrorism.

BTW, there are plenty of muslims who admonish sharia law and terrorism

Yes, but under Islamic law, they are considered hypocrites,and apostates, who should be killed.

Sharia law is 'allah's" law, and rejecting Sharia law is rejecting "allah"

terrorism is what made Mohammad victorious over the enemies of 'allah"

non-Muslims are enemies of allah, because they reject "allah

Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad)

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy),

Mohammad used terrorism, and he is the perfect man, why can't good Muslims emulate the actions of the prophet of Islam.

and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

the prophet took one fifth of the booty.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/Hadith/English/Hadith/bukhari/004.052.220.html

Unhappy-1583758

skrekk - In fact Breivik quoted Geller and Spencer extensively in his manifesto.

Shrekk:But Brevivik was not a Christian but rather someone who believed in a Christian "way of life". Even though he claims he is 100% Christian, you can see from his statements below that his life was far from believing in GOD.

Ummmm........Geller and Spencer are the Islamophobic subjects of the article. They're not books of your bible.

Or they could just ask the CIA and the US Military to stop supporting those that perpetuate violence in the name of Islam. Ah but then the US Military won't have any justification for its land snatching so doubt it would listen to them.

Exactly. You summed it up perfectly.

You mean like the Christian community condemned Dr Tiller's murder? I didn't hear too much of that, either.

Land snatching ? I must have missed something. We have pulled all combat troops out of Iraq and they will be gone from Afghanistan in 2014. Seem to me that if a country is snatching land that they stay and occupy it and annex it, not leave. But maybe I'm wrong.

The CIA and U.S. Military do not act without permission of the Commander in Chief (The President) so it would be the policy maker setting the scene rather than the agencies you mentioned. They do not act autonomously. They follow orders given to them although the CIA always maintains plausible deniability.

Hey Soldier's Dad you didn't miss anything, some people just make crap up to fit their mis-informed minds. Some of them still rant that we wanted to steal the oil from Irag. If we were land snatchers we'd snatch all of the middle east and then sell it to China to pay off our national debt. Might as well buy oil from China we buy everything else from there.

Some fella on here actually had the nerve to say that Dane that killed all those kids on retreat is a Christian. Holy cow Batman, it's pretty easy to see that he worked alone and is mentally insane.

Until the Muslim community at large stands up and denounces violence, no one is going to believe that any Muslim is peaceful. I know, I know, your Muslim brothers will kill you too if you do that, but some courage is needed and it is needed now.

Hey bullet, take one in the brain recently? That "Dane" is Norwegian, yes he is a professed "christian" and is mentally ill ... just look at the crowds shots from a Santorium rally he's looks just like most of them but much better spoken. He writes his own words not just spits bad what FAUX News tells him.

Time and again the Muslim community has condemed violence and terrorism, but it obvioulsy seems to fall on deaf ears. Maybe if any of you actually knew a Muslim it would be easier to hear. Many Muslim scholars, activist, and leaders have spoken out againt terrorism. A majority of the thwarted terrorist attacks have been prevented due to tips from fellow Muslims. Why is it that every time a Christian committs a horrible act you can just say "oh he's not really a Christian," but the same doesn't apply to Muslims? The ignorance and hypocrisy of this country is mind-numbing. I would like to propse a new rule. From now on if you want to make some bigoted post that claims to be factual you should have to provide sources for all of your bullsh*t. How many of you know a Muslim, have read the Quran, or really know what Sharia is?

Miss,

And, I assume you'd be the first one to denounce anyone on the left from bashing Christianity.....Right?

Or, am I misreading you and you're being sarcastic?

Bernie- you would not. Christian bashing is all the rage- which makes MSNBC's placement of this story as a headline a clear indication of the hypocrisy of this selective outrage.

Bernie, I was and I wasn't being sarcastic. Take it any way you want. I'm no fan of Islam, but then I think all religion is hooey. I am just astounded at all the paranoia displayed here, but then, the beginnings of this country are rooted in religious intolerance. The Puritans did not come here so much to escape religious persecution as they did to have the freedom to persecute others. But infiltration? Really?

BASH ALL RELIGIONS, they stand in contrast to what humans evolved as, intelligent animals.

No, wrong assumption. Humans evolved to be intelligent animals. That's funny. Humans are the most violent of the animal kingdom. Humans are vicious killers (religion has nothing to do with it), some humans kill for greed and cover it up with religion, some humans kill for sport and power and tell you that it is their divine right. Humans love fighting, that is why boxing, MMA, and wrestling are all world wide sports. Humans like to conquer. How intelligent is that. When you look at the teachings, (not the actions) of most religions, they advocate peace and love and charity. Someone here said the Budhists never started a war, study the teachings and you will see why. If every body in the world believed in just one thing, one little thing this would change and that thing is, "All mankind (includes females) are created equal and are endowed with the capacity to love and protect one another".

Bullet,

All those things are great (except we weren't created) but has nothing to do with our intelligence. Elephant are strong, cheetahs are fast, humans are smart, that is our adaptation, that is our evolutionary niche, we are easily the smartest animals on this planet, violence and war actually proves my point. We can only kill so many people BECAUSE of our intelligence, just as Oppenheimer.

Hahahahaha.......Thanks for that laugh. I always find it funny when Christians in America complain that they are being repressed or harmed in some other way. Its like when white guys complain about being discriminated against. A Joke!

Wait, you don't think America is better than Saudi Arabia?

You really want to compare our freedoms to that of a Monarchy... how pathetic.

Why is it that these comments seem to heavily resort to personalization of these horrific events? These people are not insane, they are ardent followrs of their religion. As has been stated by many commenters, the Koran (sorry about that but English is my first language) and the Hadith are kind of comparable to the Bible and the Catechism, each pair of which constitutes a religion (in this case Islam and Chatholicism). However, the big difference is that the Bible and Catechism have been revised to present a more peaceful, tolerant, and forgiving way of life. The Koran and Hadith have not and the heavy handed, violent, and demeaning precepts have been reinforced through time, giving Islamic zealots the justification for their actions and severly limiting any opposition. Quite different from ALL other religions or peaceful belief systems.

Can we concentrate on the root cause of the problem here, the Koran and Hadith and the unwillingness to change their tenets to a truly peaceful tolerant, and loving life lesson.

Fact,

Wow..........Now THAT really made sense......I think??!!

no such thing as a moderate muslim

Come to Canada, we have quite a few. Things tend to change when they're not isolated from the general populace.

Tron, where I live,H we just had a man shoot, and kill his wife and daughter, and set the house on fire. He was a good Christian, survivilist, who then shot himself, when trapped by police. He was not a Muslim, so your stupid, point, doesn't work. People kill their family members all the time, and most of them are not Muslim. Turkey is a Muslim country that has a secular government, and they do not tolerate honor killings. Honor killings, are not a Muslim practice, they are cultural. Many Christians, do horrible, evil things as well. In Rwanda, the killings were by people that were Christians, not Muslims. They were killing fellow Christians, because they were from the wrong tribe. You are a mean, evil person, to villify everyone of a certain, religion for the actions of a few. Hopefully others like you the haters will be banned, by MSNBC for your racist, anti-islamic, evil rants. I by the way I'm a woman, and a Christian, and I do not hate all Muslims, for the actions, of a few. I hope your not a Christian, because if you and the others of your ilk, posting your rubbish on these comment boards, should be ashamed of yourselfs, because you are NOT CHRISTIANS.

How about every abortion clinic bomber?

Bingo, Tim W!!!!!!!!!!!

Abortion clinic bombers are not christians. They have no religious affiliation that us real christians can figure out. Just because they claim to be one of us doesn't make it so. You can claim to be a lot of things, you can claim to be a war hero and have never served in combat. You can claim to be honest when you are a thief. Claiming something doesn't make it so. So quit being so gullible Tim.

Bullet171,

Or you could "claim" to be a Muslim while performing an honor killing. You can't pull the "real christian" card. Abortion clinic bombers not only claim to be doing their god's work, but probably truly believe it. It is in exactly the same way that any religion can be distorted for evil.

Abortion clinic bombers are not christians.

Then why does every terrorist has to be Muslim?

I know many Muslims, none of them are terrorists.

@Sally:

These are the trolls, and this is what they do:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47221653/ns/world_news/t/british-red-cross-doctor-kidnapped-pakistan-found-beheaded/

And they are members of the paramilitary Satanic cult of death, destruction, and hate called "Islam" . . .

In some respects, I continue to be a bit amazed that this is so difficult for people to understand, but there is an easy way to gain a few clues:

(1) Get a piece of paper and a pencil . . .

(2) Each morning for the next month, read the headlines at the MSNBC.com home page (a personal favorite) . . .

(3) For every news report referencing any aspect of the paramilitary Satanic cult of death, destruction, and hate called "Islam", make a mark on the piece of paper with your pencil . . .

(4) At the end of the month, count the number of marks on your piece of paper, where the Baldenario predicted result will be somewhere in the range of 100 to 150 marks, which should lead to a vastly disturbing epiphany, really . . .

Really! :-o

@Sally:

More to the point, if you want to delete any or all of my posts, you have the authority to do so, but I am bit curious why you did not also delete post #17.3 in this discussion (see below), which changed a few words in my original post and for the record garnered fewer votes than my original post, at least until you deleted it, really . . .

Really! :-o

@Sally:

If you can find her, you might ask one of your journalist colleagues--The Cartoonist Formerly Known as Mollly Norris™--what she thinks about the paramilitary Satanic cult of death, destruction, and hate called "Islam" after the FBI in Seattle advised her (a) to change her name, (b) to abandon her professional career, and (c) to go into hiding after Yemini-American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki issued a death fatwā against her . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39203336/ns/us_news-security/t/us-cartoonist-hiding-after-clerics-threat/

And for reference, President Obama after consulting with his stellar advisors--including Secretary of State Hillary Clinton (a personal favorite), Secretary of the Defense Leon Panetta, and CIA Director David Patraeus--made the decision to "toast" the aforementioned cleric with a General Atomics AGM-114 Hellfire air-to-surface missile launched from a Lockheed Martin MQ-1 Predator or MQ-9 Reaper aerial assault vehicle, which was a major change in US policy and included the authorization to "toast" American citizens engaging in verified terrorist activities anywhere on this planet for the betterment and enlightenment of others, with this policy being confirmed recently by White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan, as noted in the following MSNBC.com report written by Michael Isikoff (NBC News) and as explained by US Attorney General Eric Holder, really . . .

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/30/11475659-us-official-acknowledges-drone-strikes-says-civilian-deaths-exceedingly-rare?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/05/10585197-holder-us-can-legally-kill-americans-in-terror-groups?

Really! :-o

I've studied Islam for some years. It does, in certain instances, permit such acts. Like any other religion, the sect and the sect's leader teachings determine what's advocated and what isn't.

Liar..It is too..Dictums of Quran and Hadiths which may dictate/incite honor killing:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.”

Now some sahih hadiths:

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)

Sahi Bukhari: 8:6814:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: “A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person.”

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Al-Bukhari:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise”.

Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others:
Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated, “When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance”.

Al-Bayhaqi:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “O mankind! Beware of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the three that are related to this world, they are the following: it removes the glow of one’s face, brings poverty, and reduces the life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire.”

Baldenario - I have made the necessary corrections to your post. Now, it makes sense. How does it feel?

Baldenario

The paramilitary Satanic cult of death, destruction, and hate called "Christianity" is the biggest ongoing threat to our great nation, and it is the cause of the economic malaise that began over a decade ago with the terrorist sneak attacks after September 11, 2001 . . .

Until the paramilitary Satanic cult of death, destruction, and hate called "Christianity" is removed from the universe and its members either (a) are deprogrammed or (b) are isolated forever from the civilized inhabitants of this planet, there will be no peace; there will be no prosperity; and there will be no comfort and happiness . . .

Burn a Bible and barbecue Bull's-Eye® Memphis Style pork ribs for Elvis and Allah!™

instances for declaring death have to be handed down from a legal court. that is not the same as a honor killing. sharia law dictated in the quran isn't anywhere near as strict as the mosaic laws in the bible. but the fact remains if sharia law is not the legal law of the land then no court ruling can condemn a girl to death for immodest acts hence no death sentence can be carried out by a muslim. honor killings are done by people with no authority, thus against islam.

Hey Linda, honor killing are fully supported by Islamic law...and Islamic law has full authority over Muslims.

Jeff-3301902:

Thank you for the information......

For those of you who are not afraid of these people, WAKE UP!

no pulsar182 honor killings are completely against islamic law, punishment for violating sharia law must be exacted by legal court appointed authorities, without 5 male witnesses, a trial and a conviction by the governing authorities within a government system adherring to sharia law it is forbid to kill another human being except in defense of ones life or the life of an innoccent

Hi, Jeff. Here's a comparison between some of the passages from the Qur'an and the Bible. I have only used Deuteronomy 22 for these quotes.

Qur'an: Place your women under permanent house arrest if 4 reliable witnesses claim they are lewd.

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Qur'an: If a man and woman commit adultery, whip them.

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

from Deuteronomy 22:

Bible: If a man has sex with a married woman – kill them both

v 22: If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Bible: If a man screws an engaged virgin in the city, stone them both to death

23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Bible: If a man rapes an engaged woman in the field, kill only the man (this assumes the woman cried out for help and nobody heard her)

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

Bible: If a man screws an unengaged virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver ($357.82) and marry her, and they cannot ever be divorced.

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Bible: If a married man claims his wife was not a virgin when he married her, then her parents have to take the “tokens of her virginity” to the elders. If the tokens are good, the elder will scold the man and take 100 shekels of silver ($715.64) from him and give it to her father. But if the “tokens” aren’t found, she must be stoned to death because she’s a whore.

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

I wonder how many Christians commit "honor killings"?

None that I know of. Those things of which you write are old testament laws, Christians are no longer governed by the law of the Hebrews. The Southern Baptist Convention doesn't have any tenets for honor killings, just the golden rule and the ten commandments. Not a very difficult concept.

Bullet171

The Golden Rule is NOT in the bible.

It's also all we really need.

Many Atheists live their lives by it and do very well bothering no one.

Organized religion is a business. An often (always?) soiled and misguided affair.

Linda-3043108

no pulsar182 honor killings are completely against islamic law, punishment for violating sharia law must be exacted by legal court appointed authorities, without 5 male witnesses, a trial and a conviction by the governing authorities within a government system adherring to sharia law it is forbid to kill another human being except in defense of ones life or the life of an innoccent

Linda you are wrong again;

A manual of Islamic law certified as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy by Al-Azhar University, the most respected authority in Sunni Islam, says that "retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2). In other words, someone who kills his child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law.

I believe your reference to 5 male witnesses refers to rape cases wherein the woman must provide multiple male witnesses to prosecute a man charged with rape....If the woman rape accuser fails to produce the required number of mal witnesses she is then charged with adultry as she has just admitted to illegal sex...which is punishable by death under Islamic laws..

pulsar,

please research your information before you post. the 5 witnesses are required for any charge male or female for any law not just the sex laws. and 'Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2 is a book written in the 14th century outlining the interpretation of sharia law. the section you are referring to is not conserning honor killings but rather who can be punished for murder. here's the section from the book, (not from islamiphobe websites):

o1.1 Retaliation is obligatory (A: if the person entitled wishes to take it (dis: o3.8)) against anyone who
kills a human being purely intentionally and without right. (O: Intentionally is a first restriction and
excludes killing someone through an honest mistake, while purely excludes a mistake made in a
deliberate injury (def: o2.3), and without right excludes cases of justifiable homicide such as lawful
retaliation.)
o1.2 The following are not subject to retaliation:
(1) a child or insane person, under any circumstances (O: whether Muslim or non-Muslim.
The ruling for a person intermitently insane is that he is considered as a sane person when in his right
mind, and as if someone continously insane when in an interval of insanity. If someone against whom
retaliation is obligatory subsequently becomes insane, the full penalty is nevertheless exacted. A
homicide committed by someone who is drunk is (A: considered the same as that of a sane person,)

...hey but good try on twisting the truth.

pulsar,

i do apologize as after rereading down further that book did indeed state parents and grandparents cannot br retaliated against for killing of offspring but rather must pay blood money to the heirs of said offspring. that being said this is still not in the quran or hadith and the verse quoted by this shafi scholar who lived long after Muhammad doesn't address this rule at all and the quran and hadith do not give permission for killing of offspring. here is a hadith stating you cannot kill your offspring.

Sahih al-Bukhari > ONENESS, UNIQUENESS OF ALLAH (TAWHEED) > Hadith permalink

... Narrated 'Ubada bin As-Samit: I, along with a group of people, gave the pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle. He said, "I take your Pledge on the condition that you (1) will not join partners in worship with Allah, (2) will not steal, (3) will not commit illegal sexual intercourse, (4) will not kill your offspring, (5) will not slander, (6) and will not disobey me when I order you to do good. Whoever among you will abide by his pledge, his reward will be with Allah, and whoever commits any of those sins and receives the punishment in this world, that punishment will be an expiation for his sins and purification; but if Allah screens him, then it will be up to Allah to punish him if He will or excuse Him, if He will." ...

TheGuilty1, you should go back and re-read your history. The Western commitment to human rights, to individual rights and even to women's rights did NOT develop in a vacuum and can be DIRECTLY traced to Judeo-Christian thought and tradition. Islam provides NO such rights, especially for women. The fact that you believe otherwise tells me you have been deceived and should sue whatever educational system you were subjected to for gross malpractice.

The western commitment to human rights, individual rights and even women's rights developed. As the US was a secular nation (the founding Fathers were Deists, not Christians.) human rights has a horrible history in this country. Women's rights were basically unknown until the 20th Century. Black men were considered 3/5th of a man, but even he was allowed to vote before women. Islam and 19th century US are about even.

TheGuilty1, you should go back and re-read your history. The Western commitment to human rights, to individual rights and even to women's rights did NOT develop in a vacuum and can be DIRECTLY traced to Judeo-Christian thought and tradition. Islam provides NO such rights, especially for women. The fact that you believe otherwise tells me you have been deceived and should sue whatever educational system you were subjected to for gross malpractice.

The fact that you believe that means WE should sue the educational system for not teaching you the secular foundation of this country, just ask jesus about the second amendment.

Islam is NOT American, we are not cave dwellers who kill their family members, the ones they arnt getting married to as incest and pedophilia is in the Koran too..but thats what happens when you worship a pedophile..

Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given.

Bukhari (62:18) - Aisha's father, Abu Bakr, wasn't on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.

Muslim (8:3311) - The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad's house (something to play with when the "prophet" was not having sex with her).

Bukhari (6:298) - Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.

Muslim (8:3460) - "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?" Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an "older woman" instead of opting to fondle a child.

Bukhari (4:232) - Muhammad's wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it's a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.

Bukhari (6:300) - Muhammad's wives had to be available for the prophet's fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.

Bukhari (93:639) - The Prophet of Islam would recite the 'Holy Qur'an' with his head in Aisha's lap, when she was menstruating.

Bukhari (62:6) - "The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives." Muhammad also said that it was impossible to treat all wives equally - and it isn't hard to guess why.

Bukhari (5:268) - "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, 'Had the Prophet the strength for it?' Anas replied, 'We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty men.' "

Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).

Muslim (8:3424) - One of several narrations in which a leering Muhammad orders a clearly startled woman to suckle a grown man with her breast so that he will become "unlawful" to her - meaning that they can live under the same roof together.

Tabari IX:137 - "Allah granted Rayhana of the Qurayza to Muhammad as booty." Muhammad considered the women that he captured and enslaved to be God's gift to him.

Tabari VIII:117 - "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." He sometimes pulled rank to reserve the most beautiful captured women for himself.

Tabari IX:139 - "You are a self-respecting girl, but the prophet is a womanizer." Words spoken by the disappointed parents of a girl who had 'offered' herself to Muhammad (he accepted).
Explain that stupid heathens, get out of my country if you dont like it here

wow jeff,

bet you copied all that stuff directly from Glen Reinsford's religionofpeace.com

cuz if you looked up all those hadith verses that you listed directly you'd find they don't even remotely resemble what you just quoted.

and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad was not consumated until her first period most scholars list that as around 12, and 9 or 12, you are talking about 1400 years ago, that was the norm then, you can't judge a person in history by the standards of today, if so then all of your ancestors were pedophiles too.

Are any of Jeff's quotes inaccurate?.....AND by what standards do Muslim judge non-Muslims. and do Muslims grant any religious plurality to be allowed and under Islam what rights are given to non-Muslims?

Yes the quotes are inaccurate. Quran talks about people of the book alot (jews and christians) muslims can marry from them and eat of their food. when the word infidel is used it refers to idols worshippers and polytheists, extremist (christian, muslim, and jew) will tell you that christians are infidels because they believe jesus is the son of God and thus polytheists, but christians in the time of Muhammad believed that then too and he still did not number them among the infidels but rather people of the book.

Also under ottoman rule jews and christians were all protected and allowed freedom of worship though they did pay a higher tax rate than muslims. and durring WWII even though turkey was a german ally and 98% muslim they issued turkish citizenship to jewish persons and protected them from hitler.

Linda-3043108

Yes the quotes are inaccurate.

let's take a look at the first one, that you say as inaccurate

Mohammad in reality consummated his marriage with a child, when she was nine years old ( link) and still playing with dolls (link).

the Quran says Mohammad is an exemplary standard of conduct, and all Muslims would do well to emulate his actions.(link)

If you say there is inherently something wrong with having sex with little girls, instead of letting them play with their dolls. You in effect, are calling Mohammad a pedophile, and you may upset a large segment of the Islamic world. You know the "true believers" the Jihadists, the suicide bombers, the fundamentalist practitioners of the faith.

Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting periodarises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only
permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her.Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.

Commentary on Qur'an Chapter 65:4 (footnotes link )

Mohammad in reality consummated his marriage with a child, when she was nine years old ( link) and still playing with dolls (link).

Juliet was like 12 in Romeo and Juliet... should we kill all the people who find Shakespeare entertaining?

should we kill all the people who find Shakespeare entertaining?

In there a religion based on the writing or ideas of Shakespeare with a billion and a half devotees ?

Is there a law,called Shakespearean law, endorsing pedophilia ?

Sharia law endorses pedophilia. Sharia law, is based on the Quran, hadith, and Sunnah (traditions) found in the Sira, or biography of Mohammad. Mohammad in fact had an inordinate fondness of pre-pubescent little girls.

making mention of the waiting-period for

the girls who have not yet menstruated,

clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age

but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her.

Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.

Commentary on Qur'an Chapter 65:4 (footnotes link )

Mohammad is said to be a perfect man is Islamic theology, so if he was a "diddler" and he committed a statutory rape of child at the age of nine, it's "Halal" (permitted)

reality, logic, and reason should triumph over dogma

From an article by an Egyptian writer, Alifa Rifaat

Horrific news reports about 12-year-old girls dying in childbirth do little to stem the
tide of child marriage there.

Instead, demonstrations in support of child marriage outstrip those against it, fueled by clerical declarations that opponents of state-sanctioned pedophilia are apostates because the Prophet Mohammed, according to them, married his second wife, Aisha, when she was a child

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us

From page four

What hope can there be for women in the new Egyptian parliament, dominated as it is by men stuck in the seventh century?

A quarter of those parliamentary seats are now held by Salafis, who believe that mimicking the original ways of the Prophet Mohammed is an appropriate prescription for modern life

Mohammad is the perfect man. the book of 'allah', the Qur'an, tells them it's true

Mohammad is the "Al-Insan al-Kamil" or perfect man in Islam theology

"Quran talks about people of the book alot (jews and christians) muslims can marry from them and eat of their food." - Linda-3043108

So any Muslim would gladly accept from the hands of a Christian an offering of pork and wine. That's your logic, not mine, please note that. If at least this part of your post is not factually correct, that reflects accordingly on your whole post. In fact, this reflects on the quality of ALL your posts.
Now, for educational purposes, here's the quote from Mohammad about Jews that seems more in place with Islam than your feeble apologist attempts: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews , when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say Oh Muslims, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."

No where does it say that Romeo and Juliet had sex, they were in love. And the really Big thing here is They were not Real......it was just a play that was written and not real life.....DUH! That is like comparing a rock to an orange......not even as close as apples and oranges. Why would you even think they should be compared at all. Let's get real here, this guy kills his step daughter after raping and abusing her for we don't know how long. He says it alright to kill her because she thought it was wrong of him to do this. You think it's right? NO!!!!!

Wait a minute, are we talking about The Principle here? Shoot, Prophet Brigham could totally outdo Prophet Mohammed. Not only that, some folks think we should elect one of prophet Brigham's elect to the White House. Yeah, I know, God changed his mind about the Principle after talking to Prophet Mohammed.

In the very Lutheran farm community I'm from, surprising how many stories you eventually hear about incest--girls impregnated by their fathers, that sort of thing.

Wow how can so many people be so ignorant. Im gonna keep this short. Over 1000 years ago puberty was the age at which most people got married and had sex. About 100 years ago the age of consent in many states was 10. Your claims that the Prophet was a pedophile are simply ignorant and ignore historical facts. If you're gonna be a bigot at least try and be an educated one.

What's it called when a Christian man kills his wife and children, Hmmm? It is called a tragic isolated incident, which is not condoned for a moment by any Christian group.

That's because the practice is neither called for or condoned by Christianity.

This is for Cassandra: I just restate your post because it makes sense for both religions.

What's it called when an Islamic man kills his wife and children, Hmmm? It is called a tragic isolated incident, which is not condoned for a moment by any Islamic group.

"I never liked President Bush's policies but one thing I will always respect him for, is after 911 how he brought this country together, reminded people that Muslims Americans..." - hummbird-3359530

There were many things I respected President Bush for, but this particular thing was just another proof that he wasn't the brightest light bulb out there.

You write "Pagan" like it's a bad thing.

Crack a better book and you will see just how small the Christian god is. Or better yet...just go outside and look around.

The true God (IF there even is one) never rested, is still creating (through the glories of evolution) and left her story in the rocks for ALL to learn from. Not in words on dead tree parts for just a select few.

She is the God of new life in spring (Love that little "Easter Bunny" :) and the God of returning decomposition that brings us gracefully back into the circle of regenerating life.

Her symbol is NOT a device of cruelty and torture (crucifix....yuck) but whatever makes your heart sing as you move from day to day.

Her power is grand enough to give every living creature a soul and a purpose and a just claim to a beautiful life......and her followers are not afraid to recognize the grandness in a bug or the true church in a squirrel's eyes.

She allows mistakes and does not care if we believe in her or pray to her because we are so small in comparison she does not need our praise for validation.

She hates the wasteful, misguided "sacrifice" for we can not give her what was already hers all along. It saddens her to see the destruction of life in her name. When we eat another Earthling....she does not want to be thanked. She wants us to put forth respect for the creature that nourishes us and never take it's kind for granted.

On and On and On.

Don't let people chanting in a box with a torture device on the roof be your only connection to God.

A church is a business with limited imagination and cumbersome rules to keep you in line.

The truth is so much better.

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Right on Donnie. Keep your opinion. As ignorant as it may be. This is the 21st dude. Try and get out of a dung heap like Missouri a bit more often.

yankee boy believe it or not not everyone in america has a yankees point of view ,in fact i am a transplanted yankee and you yankees have it all wrong as do liberals

African American is used as a description, not a type of person. However, if there are two guys standing there and someone asks which was is John ______. If John is the only African American there, naturally it would be the description, "He's the African American over there." Everybody knows that they are Americans. but as a description it is used. I am 1/8 Native American, 1/8 African American and 6/8 German American.

Actually Bill I DON'T believe you.

Typical Yankee B******* arrogance. Your geographic bigotry is showing. It's not different from any other kind of bigotry, but you're too yankee-stupid to recognize it.

Willow

"African American" is NOT used as a description.

"Black" is.

If a small child is found by police in the park ...they will describe him or her as "black".

They do not know -nor care (cause it's not relevant in finding the caregiver) of said child's citizenship.

.....and there is nothing wrong with that. "Black" is accurate and to the point.

Charlize Theron is an "African American" having been born in Africa and now a U.S. Citizen.

The term is useless and tiresome.

Willow-369182 Not trying to bust nuts but not all blacks in the country today are directly immigrated from Africa. So in that regard it is narrow to refer to all black people as African American as that implies their national origin is Africa. The referred to person could have immigrated from France, England, Canada, Haiti, Jamaica, et al. The only catch all term/reference that can be used neutrally is "black." It is the same for "whites." Your Dutch is not the same as a German who is not the same as an Irish who is not the same as a Swede. Another spin on African American is such that if an individual's parents ancestry is purely African but the individual was born in the U.S. then technically the proper reference for that individual is American African lol. Semantics can be so fun!

"national" origin? as in Palin's "country of Africa"??

Blacks in Haiti, Jamaica, etc got there, hm, how? aboard slave ships. From Africa.

The "accepted" term does change. Once "Negro" was considered more respectful than "colored" (go figure, "negro" neing the Spanish word for black, "colored" being a white term for, well, not white). Then it was Afro-American. Then Black. Now African-American. Things change.

Donnie! get off the computer right now!! Mom wants to use it and Grandma has to check her Powerball numbers.

america would be a much better place if you liberals would move to say canada or south africa

Neither country wants them.

Bill that is rather Un-American of you to say. Because people don't think like you they need to leave?!? Different ideologies is what makes this country great. People can think for themselves.

Ah yes Bill. The old "love it or leave it" thing. Sorry. First, my IQ is over 3 and second, I think we'd all be better off without YOU. Wave goodbye on your way to whatever Bircher heaven you pick.

Well, me and my family have at least studied Islam and each own a copy of the Quran. From what our Muslim friends say, Islam will take over America someday. Either peacefully or by the sword, and we wanted to be prepared so that when it does happen, we can hold up our Quran and say, please don't hurt us, we are one of you. I know this is not the most coorageous stance, but if you care about the safety of your family, it is a good insurance policy.

Yankee boy forgot to finish his statement. ....over 3 and under 5. There it is finished.

What ever happened to the notion of the United States as a "welcoming melting pot". Religious freedom is a constitutional right so regardless of whether people like Islam or not, Muslims still have a right to practice it.

It's rather interesting how people are using this article as a vehicle to voice their bigotry- as if this so called "honor killing" provides justification for how Muslims are inherently evil. It's yet another attempt of the uneducated to attempt to apply the poor actions of the few to the many. I suggest that you actually take the time to educate yourself about all of the components of the religion before you actually attempt to formulate your opinion of it.

And since when does looking at a news articles alone provide sufficient proof that this was indeed an honor killing? We all know how biased the media can be... just look at Fox News. If only American society possessed even the slightest bit of media literacy this nation would be a better place.

Well hoorah for equal rights for women. We finally have our very own hate master. Her name is Geller and she is a woman...our very own little Hitler and Nazi propagandist. Congrats ladies, you've come a long way.

Reginald Brown-2497088

Well, me and my family have at least studied Islam and each own a copy of the Quran

Well, do you find Islam to your liking?

Gellar is trying to protect women from Isam! Damnet, How can this media spin this like it's religeous christian biggots who are instigating this. The woman "instigating" this is Muslim! Media needs to take medication.

This problem started over 250 years ago all the@#$%^$%#@ forigeners coming to this continent setting up their own little communities .... the real Residents should of stopped that pond scum back then!

We would have if only we had enough guns and were not so damned tribal..Just think a united nation of well armed, well led, Native Americans rising up againts foriegn invaders..Glorious it would have been...

Yeah, that's what the original Americans who were here when you came over the ice/land bridge from Siberia thought: Hey! Who are these guys?

But they were no match for the Siberian invaders with greater numbers and technological superiority.

They didn't enjoy it either. You willing to give it all back and go home? No, I didn't think so.