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NBCSanDiego.com
An officer investigates evidence at Mount Hope Cemetery.
A father is in custody, accused of attempting to sacrifice his own son in a San Diego area cemetery.
Joseph Ramirez, 30, took his family to Mount Hope Cemetery Saturday afternoon and told them his dead grandmother told him to sacrifice the 8-year-old boy, according to San Diego police.
Officers released a report stating Ramirez had brought candles to the cemetery. When one of the candles broke, he used a piece of the broken glass to slash open his son's forearms.
For more, visit NBCSanDiego.com
Ramirez then slashed his own forearms.
Corey Granberry, a medical assistant, was visiting her godson's grave when she saw a woman, clothes covered in blood, calling for help. Granberry jumped in to help along with her best friend Jaymisha Pires.
"Out of all these people were passing her by, she almost got hit by a car, all these people that were just passing her by," Granberry said.
She said somehow Pires was able to convince Ramirez to let the child go.
Granberry's medical training kicked in.
"I grabbed the little boy sat him down on the curb grabbed a shirt and wrapped it up on his arm," she said.
When officers arrived, they transported Ramirez to a nearby hospital for treatment. Once he's released, officers say Ramirez will be booked into county jail on charges of child abuse and assault with a deadly weapon.
The boy was taken to Rady Children's Hospital for treatment.
Granberry said she was inspired earlier in the week by a group of construction workers who jumped in to help a family injured in a rollover crash.
"I think sometimes people are put in places. And honestly, we were at the right place at the right time," she said.
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Corey and Jaymisha... thank you for getting involved and helping that poor boy. How will he deal with the knowledge that his own father was trying to kill him?
For all the people that passed by without aiding those people, may you have transmission failure and four flats 20 miles from nowhere with no cell coverage.
Perfecty said!!!
That's why I am more of a fan of the New Testament "Be nice to each other and chill out" God than the Old Testament "I need a blood sacrifice to show you care" God.
Jesus trumps dead GrandMa everytime!
You know, if the ghost of grandma told me to do that I wouldn't say, "yes mam", I'd pick up the phone and call the Ghostbusters! Or in his case, check yourself into the funny farm. Get a straight jacket and just sit down in the corner of your padded room until the meds make "grandma" go away.
If you're looney enough to hear grandma talking to you from beyond the grave, you're probably too looney to check yourself into a hospital.
And this psycho happens to have a kid. I wonder how crazy the mom is to want to make a baby with this guy.
This might be a good time to reflect on the fact that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all descended from a fellow named Abraham. Remember him? No, it wasn't his Grandmother, it was the voice of god that commanded him to sacrifice his son, Isaac.
Oh no. That wasn't crazy or anything. Grandma's are bad when they speak from beyond. It's good when god does it.
This guy won't be naked and jack-in it in San Diego for awhile.
David you may want to re-read that about Abraham and Isaac with a few commentaries thrown in. You missed the whole point. God never did intended for Isaac to be sacrificed.
God made Abraham think he wanted Isaac to be sacrificed to test Abraham's devotion to God, but stopped him when he actually tried to do it, and never intended for Isaac to be sacrificed.
But still, I prefer the New Testament.
Yes, and maybe Grandma was "just testing" Daddy Ramirez to see if he still loved her enough to kill his son/her grandson for her... Whether or not God or Granny really intended it, it's still a barbarous notion. So is the notion of killing off Job's family and otherwise ruining his life, just to win a bet with the Devil. One has a hard time, frankly, reading the Old Testament, and not being appalled. One suspects that Mr. Ramirez was not one of those who would have found it appalling, however.
...very well said.
BobW and KJ:
Always nice to run into a couple of posters who know the mind of god. While I'm reading the fable of Abraham, why don't you take the time to read the cute story about the Garden of Eden. That's the one where Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden form eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You know, the tree that would allow them to know the mind of god.
Really guys, if you're going to throw this nonsense around, at least read the book.
And this cretin is still part of the gene pool? What is wrong with us?
I will apologise up front to all those who feel this creature is forgivable due to his mental illness. Had I been there this nutjob would have bled out from his self inflicted wounds while I restrained him. No 2nd chance.
Who's his Grandmom? Lizzie Borden?
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with people today? Oh, don't tell me, he was a great Dad, just came from a troubled childhood, a broken home, poor family and suffers from post traumatic stress disorder.
Can't wait to hear the defense to this one ......
Just a thought. If I sat in church and cried out that God/Jesus had spoken to me or sat in fervent prayer (note that you can't see God in front of me, so you either believe he is there or you don't) most who attend the church would think I was devout and speaking to God or Jesus. I might be a priest or someone in the church, or just a member, but in many churches I would be revered and seen as holy.
If I step out to the sidewalk and cry out that someone is speaking to me, but you don't happen to be able to see who it is, you would most likely think I was nuts and see if I needed to be carried off for treatment.
If I did this same thing in a shamanic culture...said I was speaking to an ancestor, guide, or went into a trance...I would be seen as normal and perhaps that I was working on healing or seeing someone who had a message for someone.
So this guy thought his grandma talked to him? I have no idea if she did or didn't, but I find it interesting that the context of a person shouting or praying, talking or whispering to an unseen person determines what society does with him or thinks of him. Hearing your dead grandmother speak to you isn't an uncommon experience in the world at all, actually, so that doesn't make him nuts. Cutting up his son is the step over the line. When you hurt others or take away their rights because of whomever you are talking to (seen or unseen), then you have crossed the line.
Mr. Walker -
He should have waited, as Abraham did, until verse twelve: "And He said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad."
You know, I hope none of you rightous bastards ever have mental problems. You all make so much fun of it. Obviously, the guy has mental problems if he thinks his dead grandma told him to sacrifice his son. Let's hope none of your friends or family hear the same thing - although with some of you, it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice. I pray for healing for the entire family.
He needs to be tried and then executed. he tried to KILL his own son, there is NO PLACE in the world for a POS OF THIS SORT.
God tells me ya'll crazy; damn voices in my head again.
When are the authorities going to have a psychological test done on that father? Lets face it he is hearing voices from the sound of things.
Isn't he a danger to himself - he cut his own arm- and a danger to others - he cut his son's arm- and is mentally disturbed - he stated he heard his dead relative telling him to sacrifice the son thus also hearing voices. Seems that he meets the criteria for a state ordered psych eval / emergency admit to a mental institution.
I suppose it is cheaper in the short term to just charge him with assault etc and let him go, than to actually Psych eval the guy.
On the flip side it appears that they can afford to put him in one of those new private for profit prisons rather than paying for a stay in a psych institution - oops those psych institutions must be state/gov funded. Hmmm
Oh well..... moving on....
Peace ...... stop the insanity..... help those in need......
She shoulda let the father bleed out and saved the taxpayers some money. Not like the kids need him around right? People like this don't need help... they need a bullet in the head.We as a society don't any of these people walking our streets, they don't get rehabed, they just learn to hide it and lie better.
justme-1425428
I don't know which fruitcake has the most nuts. Ramirez or those who defend him. Voices from my dead Grandma, God, Mel Gibson, or my next door neighbor telling me to sacrifice my son and then acting on them is nuts. Certifiably nuts. Mental problems yes, excuses yes. He tried to sacrifice his son, as in KILL his son.
That to me Mr. Unrighteous Bastard, IS MENTAL.
Hi diddly o there newsvine neighbors! Glad you brought up the story of Abraham. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham made Isaac carry the firewood to the mountain where the sacrifice was to be. "where is the lamb for sacrifice?" asked Isaac. Abraham replies "God will provide himself a sacrifice." On the mountain, instead of Isaac, a ram with its horns stuck in a thornbush was used.
The real meaning of this prophecy, was discovered when Jesus came 1500 years later. God sacrifices His son; God made His son carry the wood (cross). God's sacrifice wore a crown of thorns, like the ram. The point being, to identify the messiah, and teach that a substitute can be sacrificed instead of a person. God is love, peeps. over and out.
Yeah but Abraham was ready to do it and and apparently god was hunky dory with that fact. So you see it's OK to kill your child if you think god commands you to do it. One reason I'm not a Christian.
The reality is some people hear voices whether they're religious or not. Charles Manson was plain nuts and far from a Bible thumper.
For those theologically challenged souls out there, one of the sins that God repeatedly punishes the Israelites for in the Old Testament scriptures is sacrificing their children. In the NIV translation, it usually reads something like "and you threw your firstborn into the fire, which I did not tell you to do, and had never entered my mind."
the cops should have taken the father the long way to the hospital and let him bleed out.
No one who kills or tries to kill their own children should have children to begin with.
How would you know someone is going to try to kill their own child if they don't ever have a child to begin with? The only way for that to work is if we stop EVERYONE from having kids,because you can't always predict crazy.Thanks for that,Captain Hindsight!
Saraos
Very keen observation.
ManFromNantucket apparently found a crystal ball in his swimming pool. The shallow end.
Yea, and then stopped for coffee and doughnuts on the way
You're right. Hindsight is 20/20 and it is always easier to do postdictions rather than predictions.
However, I think that in extreme cases of child abuse such as these forced sterilization should be the minimum punishment mandated by the courts. Sane or insane.
What is REALLY going on?
Definitely a bravo to the brave people that decided to act. People are put in places and they were definitely there for that reason.
I'm so glad someone was there to help. It's sad that others were too fearful; they will dwell in that fear forever.
Anyone can go crazy, parent, child, neighbor, cousin, etc. The problem I have is if my grandmother came to me and told me to kill my child, I would know something's up. My grandma would never put on such a face. Evil can come in disguise and it does exist in this world. It's important to be able to recognize it for what it is. Apparently, some folks are too gullible or stupid or insane to question an evil command. People are very easily led. It's too bad so many can't think for themselves. I have difficulty fathoming that, but I know it's true.
Best wishes to the child and family for a speedy recovery. May the father come to realize the error of his ways. And thank you again, Granberry and Pires for helping those in need.
Well the problem is you and i would recognize that a dead relative would not be talking to us, however this man was clearly insane and assumed that the voice was normal. perhaps someday with lots of therapy he will be able to understand what he did.
Disagree. I don't care what therepy I had I would never want to come out the other side and know that I murdered my child. Right back in to crazy!
Canopy Jones
Kudos to them all.
Loco en la cabeza?
No seňor, soy Americano como tu.
Loco en la cabeza y mas
Playing devils advocate here ... aren't all Christians told to honor a man who was willing to sacrifice his own son because god told him to do so?
So ... a story written of a man who heard voices a few thousand years ago to gut his own son is not only condoned ... it's worshiped. But a similar story in present day is looked upon with contempt and disgust?
Can someone explain to me why we call it "insanity" when it's the work of a few. But when millions of people believe the same nonsensical acts of a homicidal maniac, it becomes "faith"?
You're ignorant views have no weight on this story, you have to be one the the biggest idiots I have ever read.
Why, because you have no logical reply?
I'd love to hear one?
I'm not sure the insults are necessary, just asking a question. I didn't offend anyone.
By the way, you may want to learn the proper usage of "you're" before you go calling someone an idiot.
The anonymity of the net makes chad bold.I doubt he'd be so chatty dissing our religion in person
I'm with you on this Chad. Some whackjob a couple thousand years ago hears voices and he's a prophet; today, not so much. Also Jesus isn't the best comparison, Abraham is. But you can bet that the modern Christians won't be so anxious to deify the nutcase in this story, after all it was just his granny talking to him and not God Almighty.
I'm whicha' Chad, but don't expect anything but invective or pomposity with lots of Latin thrown in. I get that every time this subject comes up.
And yet pain, you choose not to give a logical answer and instead you chose to insult him. Your religion must be pretty weak if asking a reasonable question is considered "dissing".
you should be thankful for our culture we got from christianity.
Why?
Wouldn't it be your duty, as a Christian, to turn the other cheek?
Oh, that's right. You right-wing "revolutionaries" have long forgot who your god really is.
The reality is, I'm not "dissing" your religion, just asking a logical question. One you clearly have no answer for (which doesn't surprise me.)
The other reality is, if I met you in person, it's not your religion I would diss', but your ideals of humanity, your opinions on worth, and your concept of what constitutes a decent human being.
Lol, I'm not sure what John's true veiw point is Chad. I had a very similar thought. But Abraham did say that it was God that told him to do it while this guy just said it was Grandma.
But to John's credit, you are talking about the Old Testament. There are many Christian's that believe the old book is just that, a book of history and laws put together 3000 years ago. I would even argue that the vast majority of Christians have very little knowledge of the old testamont and instead read out of the new testamont every week. Of course, your post deserves much more praise.
Chad, religion isn't supposed to be logical.
John - ever hear the expression "those in glass houses should not throw stones"? You are just as ignorant as the person at whom you are pointing a finger. "You're" is a contraction of "you are" and is incorrect the way that you used it in this sentence. The correct word is "Your", a possessive pronoun. Also, you left out a word. The comma in incorrect. That should be a period ending one sentence and preceding a second sentence.
John and Pained,
You're the idiots. A simple question was asked and your response is insults and veiled threats of violence; typical christians: Believe what I do or I'll hurt you.
I will gladly "diss" your anti-human, evil, irrational religion to your face, tough guy; bring your friends.
Care to cite your source of this story Chad?
Who comes to Newsvine for proper editing and grammer? We all come here to spout off to each other about stuff we can't in our real lives because everyone we know in the real world is so extra special sensitive.
Chad maybe you should read the article again. The man said that his dead grandmother told him to sacrifice his son, not God.
Chad, anything even Close to condoning this story is disturbing tho. I know you're trying to make comparisons, but it sounds like you're saying What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
1.) This story
2.) The Bible
3.) Objective reasoning
4.) Logical curiosity
I thought the question was pretty clear, no?
It's not about who purportedly did the asking, It's about the double standard applied to two similar concepts.
Chad, that is a good (if not very original) question. The first simple answer is: that guy's grandma, whoever she was, is definitely NOT God. The second answer is a little more complex. Abraham's story must be put in historical context. Back then, the appreciation of human life was very different and human sacrifice was very frequent in a lot of civilizations (kind of like the death penalty in our days), as a religious practice or as a "sport". Most contemporary human beings are (rightfully) outraged by that although we hardly loose any sleep on the thousands of daily victims of crimes, famines and wars around the world.
Chad:
If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.
Again.You're anonymity cloaks you.be thankful.Not a question,a smart ass question.And it is god that is perfect,not me
Abraham had a different record than Mr Ramirez...
And probably someone would have tried to stop Abraham at the time if someone had seen him take Isaak to the slaughter...it's not like he had everyone's approval.
Who knows if Ramirez heard the word of the almighty and the (Attempted) sacrifice would have led to some mystic divine intervention whereby Romney would be reduced to a pile of worms, maybe future generations would worship Ramirez as well.
Saints and nut-cases hear voices - if you are a saint, the events will lead to something grandiose - if you are a nut case, you will amount to damage and mess.
I think Ramirez belongs to the latter,
I wonder when they will release rev. 3 of the bible? It must be about time.
That goes without saying, but it also completely misses the point.
What ever happened to the days where this stuff was considered "revelation"?
Weren't these supposed to be (if not the inerrant words of our creator) at least his inspired words?
The entire "historical context" argument from the religious becomes completely null-and-void once you consider the source. We are made to believe in a perfect creator, one who designed all of creation and set the laws of morality (and physics) in motion. Yet, when it comes to unveiling his message upon his creation, for some reason, it is as jumbled, inconsistent, violent, archaic and nonsensical as you would expect if it were written by violent, inconsistent, archaic men who didn't know any better.
Hmmm, I wonder why that is?
Maybe, just maybe if the Bible came out and said: "Hey guys, slavery is bad. Killing children is bad. And oh, by the way, you are not at the center of the universe, but a small part of a vast cosmos instilled upon my creation"...
... then, maybe then I would think Christians had a leg to stand on. But what do we discover in this perfect book? Turns out, just the opposite is written. Again, I wonder why that is?
@Pained1
I've grown tired of your pseudo-masculine posts. You're not frightening anyone my friend. You just come across as an ignorant Ted Nugent wannabe who clutches his Bible tight, but his rifle even tighter.
In short ... you're an adult boy; who tries to write like a man; so the rest of us will take him as a patriot.
But in doing so, you fail at all attempts simultaneously.
Chad, your account of that story is flawed. God wished to test Abraham's devotion by asking him to sacrifice Isaac. However, God never really wished for Isaac to be sacrificed, and stopped Abraham before he could do it.
And where it the Bible are "slavery and killing children" promoted? And where did the Bible say that we are the center of the universe?
Kj, I don't care if god wished to play the mother of all pranks, if you want to worship a god that could even think something like Abraham and Isaac's "long and gloomy walk" was a proper testament of faith, than you are welcome to it. I just certainly can't envy you for it.
Can you imagine the psychological torture inflicted upon Isaac? Only belief in a religion this disturbing could make someone think these actions were okay. And worst yet, you defend them? Pretty sad.
If you don't know what both old and new testaments says about slavery, than I'm afraid you have much reading to do before you approach that question.
Not to mention his misinterpretation of the story but also the fact that the old testament doesn't address Christianity. It addresses Judaism. Christ's arrival on the scene rewrites the laws of this religion. I'm not even a Christian and I understand this. Why is this so hard for religion bashers to understand?
In other words: I don't care that you make sense of my misrepresentation. I still hate religion and will do anything to sound like I'm right.
Chad, tell me one place in the Bible where slavery or killing children is promoted by God or Jesus.
Generally, you're right, Chad, save that it is NOT just "Christians" who are told to venerate Abraham (and his willingness to off his own kid "for love of God"), since Abraham is also viewed as the founder of the Jewish and Muslim religions as well. No wonder those 3 religions account for so much of the world's misery, both present and historical. Maybe Abraham SHOULD have killed Isaac. At least there would then have been no one to keep that insane desert mysticism from continuing...
Isn't that the whole point? You people use any means necessary to defend your faith. As a non-religious individual, I can look through non-biased lenses at religions for what they are.
As I mentioned before, only someone clouded through faith could look at the story of Isaac and defend it as anything other than barbaric and sick. Yet here you are, and there you go, trying to justify such wickedness.
You have poisonous software running on your brain my friend. I don't hate religion, I hate what it does to my fellow human being's conscious. It turns everyday, normal individuals into raving lunatics who wouldn't think twice about sacrificing their own children if only their magical friend told them to do so.
As I pointed out in the post before that, Chad, I'm not a Christian (nor Jewish nor Muslim). It's just that I'm not a bigot.
Once again you're not caring about the facts presented, just in just being right no matter what.
That's pretty comical,
Not only do you approach my entire summation with your own projections of a straw man argument, you seem to know a great deal less than you insist.
I'm well aware of the arguments Christian apologists use to brush off the wickedness found in the Old Testament, I'm just a little surprised you fell into the same trap. Perhaps you could enlighten us all on why (if the Old Testament doesn't "address" Christianity) what baring the 10 Commandments have on the Christian faith?
You do realize they are from the Old Testament, correct?
Unlike some Christians, I do not believe everything written in the Bible. The Bible was written by man, not God. And I also find the New Testament to be far more relevant to Christianity.
It's okay for you to be an Atheist, it's even okay with me for you to continue to diss my religion, because I believe in free speech, and I do wish to "turn the other cheek" as the saying goes. I simply wish for you to stop condemning religion, and refusing to look at the good aspects it has brought.
Ladies and gentlemen ... the most perfect example of liberalistic self-deprecation I've come across in quite a long while.
So, criticizing religion and taking a subjective/analytical view is synonyms to bigotry eh?
Look deeper. I'm not dissing your religion, and I'm not overlooking the fact that religious people do good works.
Hezbollah is the main charitable source within their region, that doesn't make Islam true.
Subjectively criticizing and analyzing beliefs is NOT an offensive undertaking my friend. Beliefs, by way of defining them as "beliefs", does not warrant or assign them special treatment.
Even if religion is not true, what motivated many of those religious people to do good works?
I would rather believe in a God and find out there isn't one than not believe and find out there is.
Just a note, English Christians were responsible for ending the international slave trade. Somewhere in the Book of John, Christ says something to the extent of "a slave is no better than the master and the master no better than the slave."
*Back to the issue of this nut-job of a father, his pathology is that of an opportunist malnurturer.
Opportunist: Having or exploiting a child for personal gain, sadistic gratification or profit, including but not limited to, selling a child into prostitution or slavery. Using a child to seek revenge against a spouse.
*His motivation is delusional.
The motivations for Malnurturing.
Delusional: Harming a child as a result mental illness and/or alcohol and drug addictions. Also, but not limited to, cult or religious fanaticism, as with denial of medical care or the Jim Jones massacre.
*And he should be sentenced according to these guidelines.
Sentencing guidelines for these Pathologies are assigned according to:
a) results in emotional and/or psychological damage to a child.
b) results in physical and/or sexual abuse, starvation, disappearance or abduction of a child.
Chad, misrepresenting religion to condemn that religion is bigotry. This is held true in matters of race and gender. Why not religion? Yes, you are a bigot.
And who said the 10 commandments have a bearing on Christianity? Oh, I see, you're pulling another misrepresentation to further your bigotry. Oddly enough if I were a Christian bashing an atheist I'd probably be banned on The Vine for hate speech. Where's the consistency here?
Says the individual who doesn't understand I'm not misrepresenting anything.
Now you're just making things entirely too easy.
I doubt you'd be banned for bashing an atheist. But your comments would probably get collapsed a lot if you kept posting baseless straw man positions (which are the only comments I've seen you post so far.)
@Chad
"you people"????? Wow.
@KJ
nicely put.
chad needs a hobby.
Again.You're anonymity cloaks you.be thankful.
Oh man what would you do, beat me up? I am so scurred.
I would mock you in real life too don't worry ;)
Let's face it. The Bible doesn't condemn child abuse, which when you really look at it, is the source of all our societal ills. Seems to me God's very first commandment should have been something like, "Thou shalt not abuse thy children, and love them with all thy hearts and souls, for they are truly God's creation."
If people could follow that one, there would be no need for the others.
All I know is that you are all liberal nut jobs that will most likely be voting for Uncle Barry this election.
If that's all you can contribute to this thread, perhaps it is "all you know."
Pained1 sounds like someone who would have issued a "Fatwa" in Chad's name if the accident of his birth had landed him on the side of Islam instead of Christianity.....
Everybody says the Abraham story is different because God didn't intend the child to actually get killed. OK, that's good in that it makes God look better, it just makes him sound like a practical jokester as opposed to a really evil deity. However, from the perspective of Abraham - him and this person are exactly the same. If God hadn't stopped Abraham, his son would be dead. If Grandma hadn't stopped WCG (Weird Cemetary Guy), his son would be dead. From the perspective of Abraham vs WCG, they're identical. They hear voices in their heads that tell them to kill their children, and they do it. If you think Abraham did the right thing, then by extension you have to think this guy did the right thing. If you think this guy is a nutcase, then Abraham was a nutcase.
He should have waited, as Abraham did, until verse twelve: "And He said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad."
The story of Abraham and his son, Issac, is scripture for more than christians, but also jews, and muslims.
Then you'd better believe in ALL of them - from the Hindu god Ganesh to Allah, to Thor, and so on, b/c you wouldn't want to be caught not believing in one of them if they are real...
@bonos_rama: That reminds me of a very funny Terry Pratchett zinger about a guy who became a pantheist (based on an actual historical figure). He believed in all of the gods so as to make sure he had the right one when he came out on the other side.
The gods weren't very pleased. No one likes a smart aleck, apparently.
Tsk, Tsk, Chad you got the crowd riled up over a simple question.
This is what I seen your question as, If people believe in a man that heard the voice of his father in his head and seen his father, how could they not believe that this man in the article didn't see and hear his grandmother? Today we would say dude in the article is crazy, but we dont see Jesus as hearing and seeing things as crazy. I got your question and have pondered that many times as i got in to psychology deeper..
Trust me you will hear the excuse freewill and nothing that actually answers the question. People will blast you with derogatory remarks and be generally rude if you don't have the same views they do because gawd forbid someone actually thinks outside the box and questions the unknown.
I have a question for you Chad.. LOL.. If I go in to a church and proclaim to my father I am hearing voices and they are telling me to paint people with poop because it will heal him, what do you think the father will say?
Ok the article says the Grandmother spoke to him and she told him to sacrifice his son. It doesn't say anywhere that God didn't speak to Granny first.
I thought God spoke to Moses out of a burning bush and told him to lead his people out of Egypt? You know? To the land "flowing with milk and honey". Granny, burning bush, what's the difference?
The crowd is really riled up. On fire actually. Wait! I hear someone speaking, oh my, can it be? Sh!t, it's just the tv.
CHAD FOR PRESIDENT 2012
Chad, can't wait to expound your criticism of anything Christian opening the door for criticism with your comment. You can't be that ignorant to not believe some people are just plain nuts or that all Christians are as you portray.
To everyone saying that Chad's point is irrelevant because the guy's grandma was speaking to him and not God:
If the guy claimed God was speaking to him and not his grandmother, does that mean you would support his actions? If not, your argument is completely meaningless.
Chad has made several excellent points, none of which were addressed by his detractors. He also misspelled precisely one word ('baring' instead of 'bearing.') Those who oppose him have the writing capabilities of a slow third-grader.
Well done, Sir.
That's entirely untrue. I've been on the Vine for several years and anyone who has engaged with me over the years will tell you that I analyze all religions equally. I'm not just being intentionally provocative towards Christians here, and anyone reading my comments through a non-biased lens can plainly see that
Of course, but again you gloss over my entire summation. That's really my entire point. The vast majority of Christian adherents now look to much of their faith's central dogmas and tenants as metaphor and parable. But that hasn't always been the case. There was once a time when this stuff was inerrant and unalterable ... in other words ... revelation.
Now, we've limited much of our iron-clad nonsense that we used to kill for, and we've tucked it into a trunk and covered it with warm and fuzzy expressions of poetry and spirituality. And that's great, it really is. But we still have work to do. Critically analyzing why people believe the things they do is a good thing my friend. Not only that, but it's the duty of anyone with the means of doing so.
Beliefs have consequences. And not just for the believer. As I mentioned earlier, "belief" does not warrant special treatment or respect by way of default. Nor should it. If you/we truly believed that, we never would have left the caves.
Ahhhh... Chad, it has been a while since we last seen a page together, and it looks like you are facing the lions as you always do. I'll apologize now... I didn't read all of the posts above... I skimmed looking for the good ones. I know most of yours were, so I simply hopped past and looked for the reactions to them and found that they were the typical "I'll stone you" or "nail me to a cross" variety. I did notice the Old Testament theme running thru earlier, and since I didn't pour over your comments, I'll ask you if you brought it up. Did you happen to mention that the vast majority of quotes used to discriminate against gays and such come from the OT? I always find that quite hypocritical of most of the holy fighters.
Sorry I have to cut this short... work meeting. ;)
Oh yes, very entertaining thread. I'd go through it all if you find the time ... the violent posters commenting through the peace of Jesus' name are especially fascinating.
Blind faith has a way of doing that to a person. Looks like I have lunch time reading! :D
Wow... that was fun. I'm not really surprised about all the venom that you stirred up... it is what you get when you poke at a person's faith. The vast majority of people are unable to think critically for even a second and step away from what they believe in order to consider what is being said. I don't remember who said a lot of things, and I'm not scrolling up and down to address people, so I'm just going to lay things out. Sit back and enjoy, Chad.
First off... god. Take your pick as to which one, I'm not discriminating. They are supposed to be all powerful to some degree, but since we seem hung up on the christian god... we'll settle there. First off, the christian god is supposed to be all knowing and have his "master plan". This means that he knows everything that had, has, and will ever happen. I'm talking down to the thought... he is all powerful, right? This means that he doesn't need to test ANYONE. He knows how they have lived their whole life already and there is no way for them to change it. That's right... all you christians that think you have free will according to your god... don't. Otherwise, there would be no master plan. Don't get mad at me... basic logic.
I read where someone wanted to know where in the bible that kids were being killed. That really illustrates the lack of knowledge pertaining to your own book. When the armies of god were claiming the holy land, he was telling them to go into each village and kill everything... right down to the livestock... EXCEPT for the virgins. Back then... little boys did not count in that description. Just an extra note on the way the church deals/ dealt with children, there are kids STILL being molested by priests all over the world. Yes, they never condemned the practice at the Vatican... wonder why?
Now onto hearing voices. Everyone is bashing this guy because he says a voice told him to do something. Meanwhile, you have the faithful traveling to "special" spots to get magic water or to see the latest vision of the virgin mary in a muffin, dirty screen door, knot in a tree, so on... so forth.
As for those of you who would rather attack and insult than actually counter-point or question comments, I think you do it from ignorance from your own faith. What I would suggest is that you stop screaming at people that your god is best, pick up your holy book and blow off the dust, read thru the book and actually learn about what you are attempting to defend. I will guarantee you that just about every atheist has.
With that... I had the baton back to you, Chad, as I need to punch back in. :D (Don't worry... I'll keep peeking when I can!)
@bonos_rama: If you are going to quote me, at least get it right. I did not say "a God" I said "I would rather live as if God..." Please review what I wrote and be sure to quote me rightnext time.
Should have known someone would try to twist the quote and take it out of context.
Very well said.
One of the biggest questions for Christians that I've come across in a long while (and I've been discussing religion for many years) that I still haven't gotten a single answer for is the idea of "original sin".
As I pointed out above, most sophisticated Christians of the day have long admitted that much of the Bible isn't meant to be literal. They have long conceded that Noah's Arc, Adam and Eve, the talking snake and the like, are not meant as literal interpretations .... they are more "metaphor" and "parable" than anything else.
And that's great. I call that progress.
But wait minute. Let's go back to Adam and Eve for a second.
If the Adam and Eve story is just that (a story) and not literal truth ... how do Christians justify the concept of Original Sin? The entire concept is predicated upon Eve's temptation.
If they can't justify/rectify this concept, than where the hell does Jesus fit into the equation? Was Jesus' entire sacrifice not predicated upon mankind's fall ... our original sin?
Are they now going to say Jesus was "just a metaphor"?
Remember, Chad, the new testiment is a rewrite... eventho god is perfect. You would think he would get his word across correctly the first time, wouldn't you?
Funny that you bring up Adam & Eve. I got into a pissing contest about a little observation that I made about the Norse pantheon and how the story of Ragnarok ends with a man, a woman, and the Tree of Life... and that is how the christian/ jewish/ muslim religion begins... a man, a woman, and an apple tree. Whew... I had 4 "good christians" around me foaming at the mouth.
Come on, do you really want to pick the storybook apart? There are so many inconsistencies in there, we could write a few articles about it. I could start with the whole fact that they call Satan the tempter, but wasn't it god who put the tree in the center of the garden with the most luscious fruit? Since he is all knowing... he already knew that they were going to eat from it, yet he put it there anyways... then punished them for something that he knew was going to happen. If you say that god didn't know they would do that... you take away the "all powerful" out of the title. Now don't ya? :D
Chad... you realize we can work off of each other for days!
Everyone has cell phones and yet people can't call 911? People like that have no place in this world! I hope they need help and can't get it.
That's mighty Christian of you.
Not everyone has a cell phone. Until a few years ago, I didn't. And, since I hardly use, I frequently forget to bring it with me.
Mexicans have to realize that the Aztecs are extinct.
Um.... this is more like a modern day story of Abraham and Isaac, with Ms. Granberry guest starring as the angel of God. Aztecs?....no.... this man's unbalanced mind was poisoned by Western religious teaching and Biblical stories that upon closer examination are full of stories about mental illness, delusions, magical thinking and the contagions of ignorance and stupidity.
Tell that to the Aztecs I know. I'm sure they'll be interested. (Also, the Biblical parallels are pretty stark. If the guy is in fact Mexican, he's more than likely devoutly Catholic, and knows this story pretty well from scripture.)
Aren't we supposed to respect other people's religious beliefs? :D
That is unless it involves sacraficing your own son.
I heard the kid pissed on $36,000 worth of Macbooks and dad was punishing him.
Wait. Wrong article...?
If our govt had done its' job at all in tne past half century we wouldn't be reading this unless you got a MEXICAN newspaper
OK please explain.
because they shouldn't be here
That's plain stupid. There were people of "Mexican" decent living int he southwest long before it was even a U.S. territory. America is not the Land of the White Europeans.
pained1, you probably should be thinking about moving to another country. You seem to have some very weird theories about what this country should and should not be. Or maybe just commit yourself, you sound like you need it.
Soy Americano como tu.
Viva Arizona SB1070
So tell us how do you feel about Mexican-Americans, Pained? American Indians and African Americans?
And liberal Jews, please. And liberal Jews married to Mexicans.
...Why don't you get out and meet people, dude? Get some fresh air, walk down to your local mart, talk to living, breathing people in person. It sounds like you need to. There has to be a reason you have all of this hate festering in you, and it's frankly not healthy.
This reminds me of my childhood too, when the negiborhood dad would try to sacrafice us all.
What are these people smoking ?
I'm confused... Who was the woman covered in blood? A father was sacrificing his son...where'd the bloody woman come from???? What'd I miss???
Good question. You never know with MSNBC. Not very big on facts and details, just juicy headlines.
He took his family wit him to cemetary so the woman is likely a family member. It is in the second paragraph.
Mom, more than likely. (Probably covered in her son's blood, at that.)
was the women covered with the sons blood because she was trying to stop the bleeding.
"I think sometimes people are put in places. And honestly, we were at the right place at the right time," she said.
I do not understand people when they make statements such as these. Really, you think you were 'put' there'? By who, God? So God is putting you in this location to save someone from a would be murderer that he supposedly created as well. What a nice God! He would save you from the awful events he lets happen. What a guy.
first of all I can see by your user ID who is your boss and am very shure he got you very much brain washed
and as for the story I read yes I believe that God puts us in the place he needs us to be. for he is perfect and yes he created us and although we choose our ways he gives us freedom to do so. and at the end I know he will save us from evil. and for what I know your boss will give you a surprise when you meet him.
it will be a very warm welcome. if you dont change your heart before you die.
Why did "god" allow a man to slash a kid and nearly kill him, at all? Instead of taking the time to put that woman there, he should have taken the time to stop the father from trying to kill the child. Ganesh the Hindu god would never have done that. You should repent and believe in Ganesh before it is too late...or he'll send you to hell. But he loves you, of course. You understand.
I'm an atheist jomava. I don't think God or Satan exists
I think Ganesh has nothing but love, to be honest. It's his dad that will send you to Hindu Hell; he tended to do that a lot in the puranas I read. That, and spawned lots of super babies. (And Hell; it's more a cross between a Norse/Greek afterlife. Latin speakers called it Vulgate, but it was a fancy name for an idunno area called 'Gehena.' Which was...idunno. Wherever people go.
An existential cornfield, maybe.)
@ Satanick:
Yet you call yourself Satanick. Why not Godnick or Long-Haired Hippienick?
Satanick sounds better ;)
I remember that song: '...Down through the chimney with good Satan-Nick!"
Childhood memories. . . .ice cream night. . .sacrifice a kid night. . . .those were the days.
Hearing voices hmmm sounds like a case of schizophrenia. If however the guy is sane which is highly unlikely and his grandmother was speaking to him them she is one evil spirit.
Chad: In the Old testament humans offered up sacrifices to God through animals and such. Abraham was an unusual story.
When Jesus died on the cross for you, that ended the need to offer sacrifices.
Jesus was the sacrifice. John 3:16
We don't need to be rude to Chad folks, just answer questions with respect please.
Doug: You beat me to the punch. Under the Levitical Law a blood sacrifice was necessary to cover the sins of the people. Once Jesus was crucified the Levitical Law was abolished and Jesus blood became the atonement for our sins, thereby ending the need for blood sacrifices.
There is an adage that goes, "I would rather live my life as if God exists and die to find out He doesn't, than to live my life like God does not exist and die to find out He does." I have chosen to accept Jesus' sacrifice for me. If that makes me looney then, I suppose, that's what I will be in the eyes of many people.
Jesus was good guy, and so was Abraham.
Doug/ Chad - How does the traditional lullaby song "Rock-a-bye, Baby" compare to the Abraham/ Isaac story? How gruesome is that?- baby falling out of a treetop when the branch breaks.
reminds me of a story ive heard and read about a man bringing his son up to the top of a mountain to sacrifice his only son. all because a voice in his head told him to.
You don't understand about God, gee that's to bad! Here's a quick lesson about God,there mr.or ms.Satanick!
God doesn't put anyone any where. God doesn't let anything happen.Man and nature let things happen.They are in complete control.
We're all born with a FREE WILL sir or madam,and what we do with that free will, is entirely up to us, not God, he gave it to us, that's all!As far as this idiot trying to sacrifice , ormurder his son,call it what you will,he did it entirely on his own time.He had a free will, whether to do it, or not to do it.Are you following me so far?So his excuse was my grandmother told me to do it.Kinda like the devil made me do it.Nobody made him do anything,he did it of his own free will all by himself!
The lady saying sometimes we are put in places,was put there at all,she just happen to be there by her own free will,because she intended to go there,in the first place.When she said we happen to be at the right place at time,she was entirely correct.Call it the luck of the draw if you will!
That's our lesson for today sir or madam Satanick! Any questions and I'll be here all week!
And with free choice comes moral authority to do good or evil. What did this man choose?
It's so easy to jump to conclusion and form an opinion without all of the given facts. No one is stopping to think that maybe Joseph had been showing signs of schizophrenia the week prior to this incident (I know this for a fact). I'm not ignoring the fact that what he did is indeed wrong on so many levels but we need to learn to not pass judgement on someone without gathering all of our facts.
30 is a bit old for a psychotic break, but not unheard of. Usually, the break occurs in late teens/early 20's for schizophrenics. Perhaps he had been deteriorating for some time; somehow I doubt we'll ever find out. The news LOVES a good sensationalist story, but really seems to hate following up with the facts. :p
Thank you for your comment Holly Rutan. I agree, I doubt we'll ever find out what happened.
There's only 1 fact that really matters here:He tried to kill his son!
What other facts could you possibly need? Having a mental illness doesn't make it okay,nothing makes it okay.He should be charged with attempted murder,because that's exactly what it is.
I agree Saraos, as I mentioned earlier. If he is indeed schizophrenic he should be institutionalized for a long time. If not, go directly to jail, do not pass go and no $200.00.
The father's mental state doesn't excuse a thing it does, however, affect what is the best thing to do with him.
There is crazy, and then there is bat sh!t crazy.
We all know which category this man belongs in.
Just a suggestion. If anyone should want to reference a piece of literature to make a point perhaps they should study up on what is really being said. Quoting one line from a book with no knowledge of the background of...I am waisting my time. What scares me the most is the only requirement to vote in this country is to be 18, breathing, and come up with an eight digit number-no brain necessary.
Yeah I know it is a 9 digit number I hit the wrong key.
That man needs to have the theme to "The Twilight Zone" on permanent ear worm.
That unlovable scamp religion, at it again.
Dan: According to the CDC and Federal Child Maltreatment Reports a child dies every five Hours in the US. Are you saying they all are killed for religious reasons?
Ramirez will be booked into county jail on charges of child abuse and assault with a deadly weapon.
What about attempted murder? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Those charges were extremely weak. Our justice system at its finest.
Look up Barbara Boxer's "Violence Against Children Act." It's been wallowing in judiciary committees for years. We really need it to have national standards for preventing and punishing child abusers as well as providing treatment for those children effected.
@RevSpinnaker: While I agree with that sentiment (and survived child abuse myself) it's possible that the father had a nervous breakdown or experienced some other form of psychotic break, and this would get the man treatment he needs. What happened in this cemetery might have been the result of psychotic depression, and should be handled no differently than if the diseased had post-partum depression at the time of the crime.
However, if he's on drugs or a witness can testify that he was lucid when this happened, then, well, the case is entirely criminal.
They are going to arrest him for child abuse and assualt with a deadly weapon. That's crazy. How about attempted murder? Put the wacko away.
I appreciate your candor, notinallcases. I was raised in an abusive environment as well.
Note my earlier post regarding delusional motivations for child abuse. I believe Boxer's Act also includes proactive public awareness educational resources and therapeutic help for victims. As well as humanely treating perpetrators suffering from psychosis.
Unless this guy's strung out of drugs he could well be schizophrenic.
Don't worry, Bonnie Dumanis (San Diego DA) is running for mayor here, and loves to prosicute these kind of cases. Couldn't get a conviction on a sick guy for growing cannibis(which is legal in California),so she's brought different charges. But 2 school district board members stole 1/2 a million dollars from taxpayers, got NO jail time and only have to pay restitution @$100 a month. Do the math, Only take a couple hundred years or so for the taxpayers to get their money back. Meanwhile, they continue to live in their nice houses. "they've lost their jobs, I believe that's a good deterrent" said the judge in that case. The weather is great, but alot of crazy stuff going on. Just another day in sunny San Diego! And mid-westerners complain about our earthquakes!
Can you really blame Martin Sheen for trying?