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Subscribe to RSSA Boy Scouts of America board member and third-generation Eagle Scout has resigned in support of an Ohio scouts leader ousted because of her sexual orientation.
Courtesy of Jennifer Tyrrell
Jennifer Tyrrell and her son Cruz.
West Virginia lawyer David J. Sims resigned on Friday from the Ohio River Valley Council of the Boy Scouts of America in Wheeling, W. Va., in support of Jennifer Tyrrell, a 32-year-old Ohio mom whose membership was revoked in April 10 because she is a lesbian.
“I had not been aware of what was going on and when I did, I felt that it was not a decision that was fair and not one that I necessarily agreed with,” Sims told msnbc.com on Monday. “I think the policy is wrong.”
Confirming the resignation, the Boy Scouts of America on Monday maintained it has the right to ban gays and atheists from its service organization, a stance upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000. A scouts official also defended the organization's actions against Tyrrell.
Story: Gay mom upset after dismissal from Boy Scouts
“Scouting, and the majority of parents it serves, does not believe it is the right forum for children to become aware of the issue of sexual orientation, or engage in discussions about being gay,” Boy Scouts spokesman Deron Smith said in an email to msnbc.com. “Rather, such complex matters should be discussed with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting.”
“We fully understand and appreciate that not everyone will agree with any one position or policy. To disagree does not mean to disrespect and we respect everyone's right to have and express a different opinion. Scouting will continue to teach our members to treat everyone with courtesy and respect,” Smith said in the email.
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Sims said he could not in good faith carry on his duties with the scouts, a post he has held for four months, and had to take a stand.
A copy of his resignation letter was also emailed to the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation on Monday.
“It is with great sadness and a heavy heart that I write to you today to inform you that I am resigning as a member of the Board of Directors of the Ohio River Valley Council of the Boy Scouts of America,” Sims wrote in his letter, according to the gay-rights advocacy group.
Sims continued: “My grandfather was an Eagle scout, my father was an Eagle scout and I am an Eagle Scout. Other than his family and his Christian faith, the most important thing in my father’s life was the Boy Scouts. He lived and breathed scouting. That is what makes this decision so exceedingly difficult and emotional. However, I know that my father would support my decision.”
Tyrrell said the support has been overwhelming, adding that her petition for the scouts to change policy has gained more than 250,000 signatures.
“I’ve been touched by the long list of supporters who, like me, believe that discrimination should not be a part of the Boy Scouts of America’s policies,” she said.
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What is the stand of the United Way regarding this issue? If I remember correctly , they a a substantial funder of the Boy Scouts. Organizations certainly have a right to limit their membership. Certainly the Klu Klux Klan limits their membership to those it finds appropriate and they continue to exist and are protected by the right of free speach. Limiting membership to select groups does not , however, automatically give the right to funding sources or to a 501c3 tax deductable status for the organization.
Also, where is this discussion of sexual orientation coming from? Are heterosexual leaders discussing their sex life with the scouts? Was this leader actively promoting a homosexual life style? Was a complaint made? If the objection is simply that they don't want children exposed to sexual orientation the Boy Scouts will need to bar all their mambers from radio, TV, school, the internet, etc.
I would like to hear from the parents of this troop and get some feedback from the people who actually matter.
At least locally the united way has continued to support the Scouts. The reason is stopped all donations to them several years ago.
Indeed, none of this *should* be an issue discussed within the Scouting community and, as such, should have absolutely no bearing on any individual's fitness to lead and teach REAL Scouting values. I'm so sad that BSA continues to tarnish their excellent work with this kind of petty nonsense. It's nothing more than a continued attempt to carry on an outdated and nonsensical belief that one's sexuality defines their capability and worth. It breaks my heart to see the organization destroying itself this way.
As a former Scout who had a friends mother as a Den mother I just want to point out that there aren't always enough straight grown men who want to be involved with the scouts to be able to accomodate those who want to be in the scouts. That's exactly why we had a Den mother and not a scout master. I can bet you Jennifer Tyrrell doesn't really give two shakes about the Boy Scouts but her son, whom she loves very much does, and since she wants her son to be happy and loves him, she stepped up and involved herself so so he could be in the Boy Scouts where otherwise I'd bet he would not have been in Scouts at all due to a lack of adult involvement. That was the case for our Scout pack over 25 years ago and I doubt it's any better today. BSA has to grow up and realize that sometimes you have to work with what you got and you can't always be picky when you work off off volunteerism. Is it really about the young people want to be involved in Scouts and enriching their lives? Or is it about the few in power who want to force their beliefs on others? Maybe Scouts has a Christian background but I can tell you that I never saw or heard any hint of it at any of the camps and Scout-o-Rama's that I attended over the years other than trying to be a good and responsible person. All you need is someone who is willing to to teach that.
...and we will start by kicking Jennifer Tyrrell out.
I'd bet some good money the only folks making an issue of her being a lesbian are the bigots, not her. Times are changing, they need to get with the 21st century here.
My son was a Scout for 7 years and he is an atheist. So in your face BSA!! I told my son to just ignore all that religious B.S. and all was fine.....he had a great time.
Lol, that's awesome Miss Lydia!
If you do not agree with the rules of an orginization go start your own. PLEASE EXPLAIN why you would even want to belong to a group that does not want you anyway. THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA IS A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION, their beliefs are in god and country! if those are not yours then dont join them!
What if you believe in country but not god? Is it ok to join then?
It sure doesn't sound to me that the Scouts teach "courtesy and respect." My husband had a bad Scout experience as a kid so we would not let our children join. They certainly did not need the scouts to become respectful, courteous and TOLERANT human beings. This organization is as obnoxious as churches that preach "christianity" but practice intolerance and hypocracy.
Miss Lydia- unless you were in a church sponsored troop or pack, I seriously doubt there was any more discussion of "religious BS" beyond 'a scout is reverent. People are acting here like there are all types of religious ceremonies, and I can speak as a 10 year leader that it just ain't so. But I agree with steve and plooka that it is time for the BSA to rethink. It is also time for teh bigots to understand that gay men and women are no more prone to harm children than straight men or women perhaps less so. It's a shame that a great organization that could be a leader in training young men for the future is still trying to live in the past.
According to news accounts, as a member of the Scouts and a mother of a child in the Scouts, the woman had never discussed "sexuality" or other issues relating to being gay/lesbian. The local troop knew her lifestyle and supported her but it was the national Scout organization that forced the issue. So, it is untruthful and hypocritical for national leaders to put out false information regarding the Scouts not being the proper forum to recognize or discuss such. Their actions and words are a direct reflection of their intolerance and disrespect for many individuals who disagree with the national Scout policy. They don't live up to their own stated goals or standards.
I would remind folks that the Boy Scouts is NOT a private organization. It is Congressionally chartered as a public corporation.
Why would a lesbian mom want her child to be a part of a group that doesn't respect her lifestyle? I just don't get it. We need to stop supporting intolerant groups.
When I was 10 years old, I stopped going to girl scouts. Instead, my friends and our parents formed our own outdoorsy, camping group. The troop leaders from the girl scouts were "uncomfortable" with my father being the active parent in my household, as my mother worked long hours, and my dad had a much more flexible schedule. Our independent group had 25 boys and girls, and we had a blast doing outdoorsy things. When my sister was in Elementary school, mom and dad again restarted their outdoorsy group for her (I'm 14 years older), and there were about 30 kids in the group.
Start your own unaffiliated scout-like group. The demand is there. All of my friends that were in scouts had quit by the time we were in high school, yet our fun large friend and family camping/outdoorsy trips (without the stupid uniforms) were still going strong.
Chris in the ruling from the US supreme court in 2000 THEY ARE A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION.
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale
This one really surprises me. I believed that the boy scouts were a truly wholesome organization that represented the ideals of the United States. However, it seems to me they are more or less another discriminatory organization in this country that has chosen religious beliefs over secular and civil laws. Just based on the little research I found, the BSA and any other organizations that donate directly to them have just lost my contributions.
secular.org/issues/bsa
www.quora.com/U-S-Federal-Government/What-funding-does-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America-BSA-receive-from-American-taxpayers
Access to governmental resources
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies
I also call upon Congress to revoke their tax exempt status and any 'special' benefits. Its time this country gives equal rights to everyone.
It's pretty sad when the only honorable course for a boy scout is to quit...
Elpea: Being gay is not a "lifestyle." It is an inherant part of a person's biological make-up.
I am an Eagle scout and I will not be involved in scouting anymore, because I am an atheist. I don't think my religious views (or lack thereof) would negatively affect my ability to teach, guide or mentor a kid but I am not willing to lie about my beliefs or fake some kind of faith. Since the BSA seem to only target atheists, I assume it is OK to believe in virtually any type of religion (no matter how ridiculous)... but you have to believe in something supernatural. My faith in science and evolution don't count as a religion I suppose.
wow, he was a member for four months and quit, how unimpressive.
Maybe the gay community can teach some tolerance. Lets start with understanding that even though people tolerate gays and lesbians that they will never condone it within their beliefs.
It is one thing to tolerate with civility homosexuality... it is another to believe in it with all your heart and soul.
I tolerate it but definitely will never believe its OK .
So quit trying to FORCE me to BELIEVE being homosexual is OK, because I NEVER will. I will however tolerate it and not show bigotry in the process.
This scout leader is trying to FORCE the issue because the organization does not BELIEVE its OK.
I am glad he resigned. He was no boy scout. He was a man with a agenda of promoting intolerance towards the scouting community in general. Good bye and good luck!
Ms. Lydia
Yep, nothing like teaching your son the value of making a pledge that "On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty, to God and my Country..." only to secretly repudiate that very pledge.
What other things do you tell your son to to lie about Ms. Lydia?
.
No one is trying to force you, or anyone else, to believe that anything is OK -- you only have to tolerate homosexuals. No one is trying to force that on the BSA; they are only being shown that discrimination is NOT OK.
It is NEVER OK to discriminate.
Shosyn, I could not have expressed it better than you. I am tolerant (but not REAL tolerant), But I can't accept that it is normal and right because it goes against the natural order of things. And it's got nothing to do with religion. It is refreshing for SOMEONE to take a stand on traditional family structure, divorced or not.
Shosyn - There is a lot of tolerance within the gay/lesbian community. The community tolerates consistent discrimination on a daily basis. They are told they cannot marry the person they love because society continues to say its wrong. Some believe in god but yet the christian right continues to treat them like second class citizens and call them an abomination. They endure stories when a child commits suicide or is murdered because they are gay/lesbian. However, there are those who are fed up with everything like this and have stopped being tolerant because of society. We saw this in the Civil Rights movement of the 60s... History repeats itself.
It's good to see more people tolerant.
Bob-620072 - It is not against the natural order of things. How many thousands of species are there on the planet? Only human beings are the ones who label homosexuality as against the natural order of things.
Wow. Sounds like YOU are the one with an agenda, not this guy.
Show me how a lesbian mother being involved in scouting is harmful to the children.
Show me how excersizing one's freedom of speech (to quit leading scouts) to support someone who was forced out is 'forcing his agenda'.
The only one I see pushing an agenda here is YOU.
From the sparse specifics in the article about the mother who 'happened to be lesbian', there's no documentation that she acted any different than any STRAIGHT mother did and didn't shove it out in front of the kids in any way. YOU have decided otherwise.
@ Shosyn
As I recall, the woman who volunteered to be a den mother (because the local organization didn't have enough parents willing to serve) didn't actually try to force her lifestyle on anyone. In FACT, she disclosed it to local scouting leadership and was told that they didn't care and wouldn't say anything. Her real issue was that after this all went down, she's not allowed to participate any more, which significantly bothers her son.
With regard to the leader who resigned - you have to be freaking kidding me. "an agenda of promoting intolerance to the scouting community" is the label you are going to apply to a 3rd generation Eagle Scout? Seriously? Do you have any clue what kind of commitment is required from a boy to achieve the rank of Eagle Scout? (I do because I did). I can tell you that it is pretty bloody unlikely that a man who achieved the rank of Eagle Scout has an agenda of promoting intolerance to the scouting community - especially a man whose family has been involved for three generations(and potentially four since I'd be willing to bet he's participating with his own sons). In my opinion, your comment sounds like you are far, far from "tolerating" - in fact, you sound quite intolerant and angry - I'm also confident you should probably go read the definition of bigotry because your claim that you won't show bigotry seems... questionable.
The BSA being a private organization has the right to establish it's own rules and regulations as they deem necessary, the SCOTUS ruled on this for the BSA . It's commendable that Ms. Tyrrell had volunteered to lead her son's scout troop, but she also knew that her homosexuality ran counter to the BSA's moral code therefore violating the code. She found that the BSA unlike politicians and some religious organizations, does abide by it's code. The BSA has done so and will continue to do so, despite the pressure brought against it from outside. This in itself may escape those who are gay rights zealots, but it's a valuable lesson that our youth need to learn. They should know that a person or a legal organization has a right to stand up for what they believe, even if that belief or code is not a popular one. Ms. Tyrrell is standing up for what she believes, but the BSA has every right to refuse her entry into their organization as well as any others who don't represent what they stand for.
GOOD
Four months and he needs to make a stand. Its unfortunate that he was clueless of the rules and mores that agred to before he joined.
OOS - Who cares what the stand of United Way is, it is not their organization? The UW can contribute to the Scouts or not, but they cannot write the rules for them.
No organization "automatically" gets any funding sources regardless of their "status."
We need more people to support their "groups" than we need those that want to tear down ones they don't agree with.
And again OOS - all of your questions are really statements, just speak up and say what you are for, not what you against.
My thoughts are that the Scouts have helped so many and made such a positive difference. I have 50 years of direct experience with them. I have seen so many young boys and girls grow from childhood to adults and make a positive contribution to society.
I wish people would quit trying to tear down what others have worked so hard for for.
@Bill: the problem is that we Scouters and parents, in good conscience, cannot support the organization when it proves itself ultimately hypocritical. We cannot teach our children to respect others for all that they are as Scouting would tell us we should and then try to explain to them why this particular person wasn't good enough to extend that respect to.
Indeed, Scouting *does* help so many and *does* make such a positive difference providing extraordinary opportunities for our children. I can't stand the idea that BSA is destroying itself from the inside out by becoming truly irrelevant.
I "am" an Eagle Scout. And guess what... that Supreme Court decision changed them for the worse.
I think they should lose their tax exempt status on all the property they control if they are allowed to discriminate. Just because you have a "right to discriminate" does not mean you have a right to a tax exemption.
The BSA had a "live and let live" policy when I was there. If you didn't make an issue of something, they didn't either.
Now the religious zealots have taken over, mostly Mormons. It's pathetic. I probably would be forced to tell me kid no if he ever asks about it. Why? I don't want him to be indoctrinated into hate, no matter who it's aimed at. He's a loving boy and I want him to grow up to being a loving man. To hell with BSA and their "12th point is more important than the other 11 combined".
Doc - I am also an Eagle Scout. Do you remember your obligation, give back? Because you think they discriminate does not make it true.
The BSA never had a "policy" of "live and let live." They have always had a policy of strong moral convictions. There may of been folks like you that didn't know that and let you think it was a policy, but it wasn't.
It appears you don't agree with the Scouts now, so be it, go your way. Your statement of "to hell with the BSA" proves you really were never there in spirit as if as so, you would know better.
Your words are very bitter, you sound more like a buzzard than an Eagle. Good luck in your life.
and AngieS...The Scouts have rules. The Supreme Court ruled that they had rights to enforce those rules. Marshmallow brain people like you have no respect for rules regardless of who made them because you believe that where ever a rule exists you have a right to break them if you see fit. Homosexuals have no business in the Scouting community because they do not share the value concepts that Scouting, and the vast majority of Americans, wish to have included in their family values sets.
ALL Americans have rights, the right to associate with those who fit their own values and the right to raise our children in the value settings that we wish. People like you, who do not want to follow rules that you disagree with, but never less want to be part of a organization or system, have to either agree to follow the rules or suck it up and get the hell out. Your just another whiner in my book. And for Mr. 4 month board member and his "bawl baby" resignation, his possible exit out of the closet must have done his soul good in my opinion.
Yeah, Bill. Me, too! I wish the BSA would let Jennifer continue her good work with her son and his fellow scouts without tearing her down for who she is and what she's worked so hard to achieve....
Kudos to Mr Sims for doing the right thing.
Interesting that the BSA's policy of homophobia only dates back to 1978:
Actually, the "vast majority" of Americans support full equality for homosexuals.
It sounds like YOU need to come out of the closet.
Erin, they do not. Only the media makes it seem so.
Read your own statement. The Board member came from a family that had been long-time supporters of the Scouts; grandfather an Eagle Scout, father an Eagle Scout, Board member an Eagle Scout. So, while you're promoting your support for bigotry based upon over fifty years of support, I think those individuals probably gave as much as or more than you.
Really? Then perhaps you can explain this:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/first-time-majority-americans-favor-legal-gay-marriage.aspx
Being gay does not make one immoral. It is against the teachings of some religions and some it is not. The Amish have their religious beliefs, right? Since you do not follow their beliefs does that make you immoral? I bet you don't think so. But I bet they think it does.
@Bill How positive can any organization be if it teaches children discrimination? This is 2012 NOT 1950! The BSA is living the past and can't accept that gays and lesbians have children. They should be banned from any and all gathering places that are open to civic organizations because they are practicing discrimination like the Catholic church does. It's a doomed organization if they can't live in the current times where military service members are openly gay or lesbian.
The BSA has to change or be forced to close it's doors. They can't teach kids respect if they're BIGOTS!
"Being gay does not make one immoral"
Actually it is literally impossible for homosexuality to be an objective moral good. The reason being that in order to have homosexuality you have to have corruption. Something has to go wrong in order for it to come about. In a perfect world there would be no homosexuality; it would literaly be impossible. So if there is an objective good, homosexuality cannot proceed from it.
And saying "So what, there is no God" just means there is no objective moral good or evil. Just likes and dislikes. So homosexuality doesn't get to an objective moral good this way either. Praising homosexuality and detesting it would be equivalent in their lack of an object moral meaning.
So if you say "being gay does not make one immoral" that is false. For if there is an objective morality, it must be immoral. And if there is not an objective morality, then it really doesn't matter.
Being an ignorant bigot like yourself does make one immoral.
You really need to stop getting your information from the inside of your ass. There is no "corruption" involved in homosexuality; it is one of the four recognized inborn sexual orientations that we can be born with.
That has nothing to do with "objective moral good" -- it has everything to do with facts: the fact is there is no god.
Morality is subjective, not objective, which is why it is not legislated -- thankfully, as I refuse to live according to YOUR so-called "morality".
Scouts were a great thing for me, with a lot of good men (and women) who wanted to see me do good. I can't dismiss all that because of a few bad apples.
But the bad apples are there and they should really come to terms with their bigoted present as excluding gays and "nonreligious" people hurts the organization as a whole. You can't bring people to Christ if you're not even close to being Christ like.
Homosexuality doesn't have to be either good or evil, it's just there, i.e. morally neutral. However, exclusion of and hatred toward homosexuals is an objective moral evil because it hurts people.
You are not an advocate for homosexuals. BIGOT! HOMOPHOBIC! Must be a Klan member!! This can be the only reason! You are evil!
"I love my two dads. One dresses like grandpa and the other dresses like grandma."
Perfectly normal.
Bob-620072
How does this impact you?
@Hoosierplowboy: Segregationists believed the same thing. Just because a rule or a policy exists doesn't mean that it is morally or constitutionally right. "Marshmallow brains" like you would continue to cut the end off of the roast even though you now own a bigger pan thus wasting a large portion of the meal for no good reason. BSA would continue disallowing a large segment of the population - far larger than simple minded fools like you would like to admit - simply because they prefer to live in a past that practiced *many* policies and rules that were just as wrong, then, as they are today. That's fine. They are perfectly within their right to do so. They are also perfectly within their right to go the way of the Dodo but the rest of us will be sad and mourn the senseless loss of what *was* a truly great institution.
Just because the BSA can legally make these rules does not mean those rules are ethical.
Bob, yes it does. You can disagree with their choices but you cannot deny them access to the same things as other people because of them. If you deny them access to a group which heterosexuals are allowed to join you are promoting bigotry.
@Thankfull
please turn yourself in at the nearest mental institution. You have a bad case of Religious brainwashing probably carried out by your own parents who told you to be a homo means you go to Hell and that God hates them, or some other idiotic BS.
@Misscreant
Exactly.
If this lady is willing to donate her time to what I consider a worthy cause like the Boy Scouts, then they should leave her the hell alone. We need more people like her who are willing to help teach young boys how to be responsible citizens, and less people like the gangsta rappers who want to teach boys how to be criminals. Id much rather have a lesbian who is trying to teach good than a straight who is trying to teach bad.
Scouting got me started in the great outdoors and was my first exposure to environmental preservation (very important). My leaders were stalwart and true. I highly commend Mr. Sims on his stand against lesbian (men without balls) by choosing to leave the organization. I don't think I would take that extreme measure myself as internal disputes are not as important as scouting itself.
Ummm...I'm thinking you didn't really read the article... Mr. Sims resigned his post on the Board because he felt the BSA was *wrong* to force the lesbian woman - and by extension her son - out of Scouting. It's sad, really; for all of the love that people like me have for Scouting and for all of the good that the organizations do this ridiculous sticking point really drives many of us away because we refuse to confound our children with conflicting teachings of mutual respect and disenfranchisement. If you truly believe that this is a case of seeing the forest for the trees I suggest to you that the trees in your forest are, perhaps, diseased and will eventually kill the entire environment if the issue is not addressed.
@Howard
Apparently scouting did not provide you with very good reading comprehension skills.
Scouting is joke compared to learning personal virtues like loyalty and respect for diversity. without those a scout will just be another dumb redneck.
The Scouts can stick it. They just proved (again) that the Scouts organization is beneath contempt, and unfit to be exposed to children at all.
Please don't believe that. Scouting provides the most wonderful opportunities for our children to learn new things and try their hands at them. It teaches independence, resourcefulness and team work that they just don't get anywhere else these days. That being said I, too, am having a really hard time supporting the organization right now. All I can see is that a parent and their child were forced out for reasons that should not have any bearing on a person's ability to teach the values and skills that Scouting has long been known for. I truly hope that BSA comes to see the error of these ways or I fear this worthy organization may end up falling further and further behind until it is nothing but a memory.
Doctor Crispy may have voiced his opinion strongly, but the fact is, I've seen countless people say they refuse to put their sons in the boy scouts due to exactly these bigoted views. As I said earlier, time to change with society. Being a bigot is not a family value or a good strong societal value to be teaching our sons.
My opinion of the BSA was formed a long time ago, when they still allowed racial segregation in their troops.
They're still just as bigoted today, but now it's against atheists and gays. No surprise given that the US organization is run by Mormons and Southern Baptists.
"It teaches independence, resourcefulness and team work that they just don't get anywhere else these days."
Simply not true.
I admire the Boy Scouts of America as an organization because they stand for what is morally right. Our nation has succumbed to a morally depraved minority in the population. Years of "brain-washing" by the morally depraved minority has at last caused the people of this great nation to accept what by nature is wrong and now demand equal rights not for being people, but for their depraved lifestyle. Keeping with morality that in years past built a great nation is not something to be ashamed of.
...except when they're molesting young boys. Then, not so morally right....
Well Russ, the Bible swinger. I guess you know who is morally right. Don't forget, the largest pedophilla group in the world is the Catholic church. How many centuries has that been? You probably have gays in your own family that you don't know about.
@Russ: have you recited the Pledge of Allegiance, lately? If so, have you noticed how it promises to work towards "one nation" "indivisible" "with liberty and justice FOR ALL"? Is there *anything* in there excepting those of differing sexual orientation, personal belief, race, gender, age...anything that would suggest that there is a single American that is undeserving of our pledge of fealty and support? When you begin singling out those with whom you disagree you begin the process of dismantling this "one nation" and while united we stand, divided we fall. Your brand of "morality" is contributing to the decline of a truly great country.
All - see my comment below - broke the trail you left (nasty trail I might add).
Russ-1465963... gay. God told me so.
@Russ: I find it interesting? ironic? disgusting? that you cite homosexuals as being "morally depraved" yet you don't find your own un-Christian behavior morally reprehensible? The morality of heterosexuality vs. homosexuality had absolutely zippo to do with "building this nation". Frankly you sound very homophobic, and you know what studies are showing about that recently, right? Homophobic men who claim to be heterosexual, when studied, have very strong reactions to homosexual sexual images. Repressed much? Just wondering who appointed you in charge of morality.....playing God?
Who gets to decide what is "morally right"? YOU? I don't think so; I refuse to live by your so-called "morals".
Correction, they stand for what YOU think is morally right. In my book they stand for what's morally wrong.
I guess you've got morality corned. Yeah right! If you really think you know what's moral and no one else does you need some serious help. If you think that being gay/lesbian is immoral you're an idiot. No one chooses to be gay or lesbian. Obviously you need an education before you open that big mouth of yours. What's immoral is judging the morals of other people. That's not for you to decide. I'm sure you've done many immoral acts. You just wouldn't admit it. It's called denial and you fit that bill. Gays and lesbians are more moral and upstanding than you any day. They have the courage to live a difficult life in spite of BIGOTS like YOU. Go stick your head in that book of lies, the bible so you can judge everyone and wind up in H E L L.
Ah, yes, I do recall that when I was a Scout, my heterosexual den mother facilitated wholesome events like the raingutter regatta and soapbox derby. But during that short stint when a homosexual den mother snuck past the gaydar, we all gathered 'round the fire and talked about homosexual fornication and conspired to convert the heterosexual child molesters in the organization to homosexual molesters. Certainly can't uphold the wholesome principles of the Boy Scouts with people of dubious sexual orientation in the organization....
Just one more reason that an otherwise excellent organization is becoming irrelevant, if not dangerous.
I knew there were a couple of gay kids in my Boy Scout troop many years ago. They didn't bother anyone. No one preached sexuality, etc. We ALL got along. I think one kid made it to Eagle.
Too bad your tax dollars from your cities go to support the Boy Scouts by providing them a hall, grounds, etc. Tax dollars should only support groups that abide with the Constitution. It's called Freedom. Some groups may have their rights, but I don't see tax dollars going to the K.K.K.
Well said WorldTravel07 and thank you.
Name one organization that hasn't had some problem with deviants at one time or another in their history. The majority of the people who make up the Boy Scouts organization have agreed to not accept or promote something they believe is harmful to training youngsters to be a beneficial part of society.
Ah Russ, I see, you mean like the church? LOL
It's been in the church since the beginning - part of the deviant nature of man - but Paul (apostle) in the New Testament scolded the Corinthian church for deviant behavior.
They're promoting bigotry, Russ. You can put on your blinders, but that's what they're promoting. Unless you believe that homosexuality and societal contributions are mutually exclusive....
Russ-1465963... gay. God told me so.
Actually, Russ, those boys are in far more danger from a heterosexual, married man (probably someone a lot like you) than any homosexual, since approximately 90% of all child molesters/pedophiles are heterosexual, married men.
NO, tex, YOU are ignorant. Pedophiles/child molesters are attracted to the age, not the gender. They usually molest children of both sexes.
Really? That would make me self-hating, since I am a straight, married woman. But how like an ignorant bigot to ASSume that I'm gay because I support equality!
tex, your are the one that is confused. Erin's statement is correct. Pedophiles molest children, and often a pedophile will molest both boys and girls. Adult gay men and women in adult relationships have the absolute lowest incidents of pedophilia. The overwhelming majority of pedophiles are in heterosexual relationships. Pedophilia is a straight problem.
Now don't go confusin' old Tex with them thar fact thingies.
I'm sure he watches Fox NotNews so he probably hasn't encountered them before.
Why can't these sick people leave the Boy scouts alone. Tolerate their ideals (scouts) as we are forced to tolerate theirs (gays)! Thats how some of us see it. Why do we have to change our values to accept what we consider your morally sick values?
This gay movement is like a cancer, eating away at everything that is decent. Let them start their own gay scouts or whatever they want to call it, leave well enough alone. Keep your dirty business to yourself. Yes obviously I am not pro GAY. I am sure I will get called every nasty name in the book by you so called gays. Respect my opinion as I am forced to tolerate yours. It gets shoved down our throat every day. Every tv program now has the happy gay couple on it, so nice and sweet people......they portray it as normal and that everyone knows someone that is gay. Not true, I do not, maybe they are still in the closet but its a bunch of bs to me.
It's called human rights, you talk about tolerate and opinions but clearly you don't do such thing as you bash theirs. It's the basic human rights in which all of mankind in which gay, bisexual, transgender or straight, or whatever should have. Would you be whistling the same tune if I as a Jewish man to be rejected by the Boy Scouts because they do not allowed Jews in there? Morally you're wrong, as I can bring up an extreme example in your so call views that makes you wrong and looks hypocritical. If you dislike LGBT because of what? The Bible? Well that's fine, because the Bible also states to love and cherish people for the character and not themselves.
For the fact that I am not gay, but I know that everyone has the rights to be something, the same rights you have. Luckily, people like you are fading off, more and more people are moving forward into the greater mind of democracy and tolerant. There's many facts that I can bring up that shows it such as the increasing number of people that supports (or tolerate) gay marriages.
Only thing that isn't decent is your character, you show hatred instead of love, you show anger instead of happiness, you show bitterness instead of peace. Rather than blame them on things, you should look deep inside yourself and find the better human quality that everyone likes, because when you spew hatred and anger, you only isolate yourself my friend.
paul-3506302... gay. God told me so.
Paul-3506302
Let's see, Tyrrell volunteered because the Chapter her son belonged too couldn't find any men willing to spend the time so she stepped up. She wasn't pushing any agenda or forcing her views on anyone.
That really seems to bother you though.
And if you're looking for someone who's "morally sick" you should start by looking in the mirror.
Because their so-called "ideals" are based on promoting bigotry and intolerance.
Time for you to come out of the closet, Paul.
You don't have to change your values at all. Is anyone forcing you? However, we don't have to change our values to accept your values which we also consider morally sick. Mr. Sims doesn't have to change his values either.
These "sick people" have been some of the most well known in history. Plus they don't try to molest the boys like the straight men are known for. You are what makes this country so wrong. Disgusting judgmental old bitter fools. If you think that being gay is wrong, you're telling God HIS creations are wrong. I'd like to hear you explain that when you die and you're denied entry to eternity. Judgment will come to all and that's when you'll be told what an idiot you've been.
Alexander The Great
Leonardo DaVinci
Michelangelo
Cyrano De Bergerac
John Baptist Lully
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ralph Laird
Walt Whitman
Oscar Browning
Samuel Butler
Tchaikovsky
Oscar Wilde
Magnus Hirschfeld
Cole Porter
Alfred Kinsey
Noel Coward
Vladimir Horowitz
Christian Dior
Ceser Romero
Laurence Olivier
PeeWee herman, Michele Jackson, Barney frank. So what anybody can make a list of names.
Freddie Mercury, Barack Obama, vin Deisel. john Elway. All gay. so what. There is nothing wrong with that.
It's not that's there's nothing wrong fool! It's what right!
And get rid of that ignorant picture of which-a-macallit that you use.
leroy2112 - Wow, you know that Obama is gay? How did you find this out. Did a Republican Senator tell you or show you himself?
Ed, I'd give you 10 likes if i could!
Whatever, send your son to girlscouts and see how well that goes over. Point of the decision was clear, the majority of parents in the scouting community don't want their KIDS coping with advanced and complicated sexual orientations that even most adults struggle with understanding. Leave the scouts alone and if you can't handle that, start a new organization.
lou
you miss the point. Lesbians are just regular people like all appropriate adults they keep the part of their lives thats about sex on the side away from the kids.
only people who know NO Gay people could be so judgemental as to think that just because this woman is Lesbian that she TALKS ABOUT IT WITH KIDS and makes them "cope with advanced and complicated sexual orientations". She should have been booted if she did...as should a Heterosexual who brought up sex or their own sexuality with kids.
If they asked her, she could answer in a short sentence and say it's private. Just like a heterosexual person would
you project your OWN discomfort with KNOWING she's a lesbian and what that means onto kids. They look at her (do you see the picture and see how Young her son is? these aren't older boys, they are little, that she is leading) they probably just see A MOM dont' notice she is a Lesbian. If they do, they'd find out because some kid overheard parents talking.
I assure you kids have no problem with a sentence. "are you a lesbian does that mean that you like women not men". She says, yes, but it's private as is anyone's sexuality. End of conversation.
You project your own discomfort. Do you think she's someone going to Recruit the boys to be Gay....that's impossible by the way.
LouK2k12... gay. God told me so.
Am defending the groups legal rights to vote and establish rules and policies they believe in. Since the woman that got booted wasn't stoned to death, demonized or forced to move from her town for being gay, I could care less if she got her feelings hurt. Seriously, there are all kinds of scouting troops and some are even co-ed. Pick the one that suits your personality and beliefs. Expecting every person and group in the USA to think just like you do is narcissistic and unrealistic.
Paul, the biggest threat to society is intolerance. There are too many people in this world to expect that everyone will be a god-fearing, heterosexual, narrow-minded, intolerant bigot. But, sadly, there will always be clubs whose exclusive membership will discriminate based on those qualities.
@Lou: Oh, yeah, like the Boy Scouts is the ONLY place those kids will ever possibly run across a gay person. I know you bigots really believe you're shielding your kids from some horrific thing, but frankly, you aren't. If you think you are, you're blind to society. Gays are everywhere! Oh noz! Whatcha going to do now? They're an integral part of society nowadays, and there's nothing you can do about it, as it's a rising tide of acceptance for them as people, just like the rest of us. You'd do your kid a favor if you teach them tolerance for everyone equally, rather than teach them to hate certain people. I'll bet you don't "get this" though, amirite?
I live in a city! Are you kidding me? You completely missed my point.
Hit Girl
Hit, you seem more like (S)Hit. You are the one that is name calling and intolerant of others beliefs.
You seem to be a member of those that will "will discriminate" because they have different beliefs than you. Do you not get it, because you feel this way does not make it right, it just makes it the way you feel. Get off the soapbox and go join "your group" and have fun.
Quit being against someone and go be something.
Poor Lou is so stupid he can't understand homosexuality!
@ Vegains, LOL. You are right, next time will just defer to you since you are clearly an expert on the subject of Homosexuality.
Tex, homosexuality is no more a "sickness" or "mental disorder" than heterosexuality is.
However, your bigotry and homophobia are definitely mental disorders; you should seek professional help -- or just come out of the closet.
Apparently, he doesn't subscribe to the policies of the scouts; so, good riddance.
cunical... gay. God told me so.
I guess someone had to tell you what to do. Those one-liners must be really difficult to come up with?!
My 22 yr old son is an Eagle Scout. He and I had 10 fun years in the Scouts, but we both became increasingly embarrased to acknowledge our association as the Scouts continued to discriminate against gays & lesbians. He is now ashamed of being an Eagle Scout because he is not a bigot and does not want people to assume he is by association. The whole thing is very sad. I wish the Scouts would practice what they preach. Unfortunately almost everyone has left scouting due to the bigotry except for Mormons. If you go into any souting group these days, you will find it is 90% Mormon.
@Tex: there's no such thing as a "hetero-hater" so please get off that dead horse.
@Should: I'm so sorry that this has had such a painful impact on your son. He worked hard for his Eagle Scout and should be allowed to own and live it with pride and dignity. Unfortunately the small-minded and outdated opinions of a few zealots are making that a difficult thing to do but I'm sure that anyone who knows him and your family is well aware that you have raised him to be both tolerant and talented. Don't let this undermine the dedication that your son marshaled to attain such an incredible achievement but, rather, let him use the leadership skills that I'm sure Scouting gave him to blaze a trail towards the tolerance and unity that most of us would like to see practiced in the BSA. Congratulations to you both!
@Tex: there's no such thing as a "hetero-hater" so please get off that dead horse.
@Should: I'm so sorry that this has had such a painful impact on your son. He worked hard for his Eagle Scout and should be allowed to own and live it with pride and dignity. Unfortunately the small-minded and outdated opinions of a few zealots are making that a difficult thing to do but I'm sure that anyone who knows him and your family is well aware that you have raised him to be both tolerant and talented. Don't let this undermine the dedication that your son marshaled to attain such an incredible achievement but, rather, let him use the leadership skills that I'm sure Scouting gave him to blaze a trail towards the tolerance and unity that most of us would like to see practiced in the BSA. Congratulations to you both!
United Way has had issues with the policy - but I am sure that any lost United Way revenues are made up by contributions from the LDS Church
Why don't they leave the BOY Scouts alone. If they don't want the homo's involved they should not have to. People just feel they have to get into everybody else's business or their not happy. If you want one for the homo's then start one up and teach them everything you know. I feel the same way for the girl scouts
Chuck the bigot has come out of his closet of bigotry! I'm sure they'll leave YOU alone Chucky~
Russ Paul Lou
are you over 60?
then you have an excuse. The world is changing and we as a society have learned more about the nature of people. Fifty years ago Whites feared and mistrusted other races, in at least half of our country, Blacks were KNOWN to be inferior, ie they sat in back of buses, could not eat or drink in same places or swim in the same pools as Whites. Black facilities and schools were run down and second rate. Blacks defacto often could not vote. It was an abomination for a White to marry a Black.
But we learned things. Racism exists but not in the way it was, not nearly.
Similarly, lately we are learning about differences in human sexualality. Science is saying its most likely inborn, innate differences. Some people are attracted to the same sex. Otherwise they are as varying in all other human traits as other people.
To descriminate against homosexuals is as wrong as to discriminate against people born short or taller than average or with a dark skin color. Or people with extra fingers or a disablity, if they can do the work fine. They are mostly born that way or at least psychologically end up that way (I think the latter might be part for some Lesbians but have not ever known any Gay men who were not born that way, per themselves). I swear to you it is not a choice.
Many things in the Bible we reject as archaic, such as stoning adulterers or killing a woman who is not a virgin when she marries. we could reject the few places in the Bible that Christians use to warrent anti-Gay descrimination.
The truth is, many self-identified Christians are prejudiced against Gays...they pick and choose what to take literally in the bible based on what they were taught by their (male) leaders. I find heterosexual men to most preducdiced against Gays. particularly older men. Most peolple under 30 lack predudice against Gays...and women are not nearly as troubled usually as men are. This is because men feel themselves somehow THREATENED by the existence of Gay men. Many of you loathe them...maybe because as a teen you were or heard others mocked for being a "faggot" or "queer"? who knows. It's your own primal feelings that you are trying to make rational. They are not. These are human beings born different from you.
They don't put their sexuality on kids any more than any other parent. Gay people exist, just like Black peolpe. They should be allowed their lives free of descrimination. The Boy Scouts, which seeks to be exemplary in behavior, FAILS here in their policey...they are behind the times of what society now knows. Deal with it.
Yes, tex, and when you old coots are dead and gone, we are gonna smoke dope and @!$%# butts on your graves.
Let's just say for the sake of argument that the true test of faith in a Christian God is tolerance, respect and love of your fellow man ... and that all creation and nuance is God's doing ... so all the differences He has created in man is your ultimate test to accept and extend love to all ... thus He is one trickster and those with intolerance have been tricked and failed the test ...
Now if I may share this from my local Young Men's CHRISTIAN Association: as I am not allowed to post a link, you will need to Google: chapel hill boy scouts ymca
AngieS - your statement of "we Scouters and parents" seems to be inclusive. However, you are not all of anything and you are not really very many of those that participate in Scouts. You knew the rules going in, they haven't changed; ever. But you want to whine now.
You are entitled to your own beliefs and so is everyone else. Go form you own group and make your own rules, you have that right, and so does everyone else.
Bill I agree 100%. Each organization is entitled to form their own rules and by-laws and if you don't like them then go someplace else or create your own organization with your own rules and by-laws!! There is not a one size fits all arrangement in any organization so individually we each seek that place where we feel comfortable and fit in and can contribute. I think it is wrong to attack the BSA and demand that they change their rules. Those that are complaining shouldn't want to be a part of the BSA anyway knowing the rules and should just go someplace else to find the place to be a part of or start their own BSA.
Really a bunch of whiners. The whole country has become a bunch of cry babies over every little thing. Sheesh get over yourselves.
@Bill: Actually, when my eldest son joined Scouting over 10 years ago we *didn't* know about any of this. You see, in all of my many years as a Girl Scout, and I am one of the original recipients of the first Gold Awards, it was never an issue. The GSA does not have similar policies. Thus it never occurred to me that the BSA could turn out to be such a bigoted institution in which we would be forced to grapple with practicing our family values of tolerance, love and service to all as opposed to the selective disenfranchisement - based both on religion (we are staunchly opposed to organized religion) and sexual orientation - that is being taught by the organization. Had I known, then, what I do now I might have hesitated to put my boys in Scouting.
This whole fiasco has been particularly heart-breaking for me because some of the very best memories of my life are connected with Scouting. I spent 17 years in the GSA even going so far as to work as a resident counselor for the summer camps loving every minute of the independence, the camaraderie and the work serving others. I wanted that for my sons and, indeed, who wouldn't? Instead we found emphasis on participating in organized religions that we distinctly disagree with. We found closed-minded, hateful bigots who would ostracize us if we held values that were different. And we didn't find out any of this until we were so far along in the program that to leave would have cost my children significant friendships and would have taught them that quitting is ok and that we cannot be a part of anything we have disagreements with. In short, leaving would have been tantamount to the same kind of intolerance that BSA is showing right now and *that's* a lesson I will NEVER teach my boys.
David J. Sims - Class Act !!! Sorry you had to give up something you love.
Jennifer Tyrrell - You deserve better... Obviously someone who cares about children.
Who had discussions about being gay? Jennifer Tyrrell? Deron Smith implies she did, in his above comment but I seriously doubt it because, if she did, he would say it outright instead of couching his words.
What Deron Smith is really saying in the above statement is that he doesn't want children to become aware of "gay" sexual orientation. Period. He doesn't want children to know that gay people exist, let alone actually see one. Most of all, he doesn't want any child to see a gay person as a respected role model.
I pity Mr. Smith for his ignorance.
Kudos to Mr. Sims for taking a stand. Scouting is about building character in our young people and bigotry has no place in that process.
Miss Lydia- unless you were in a church sponsored troop or pack, I seriously doubt there was any more discussion of "religious BS" beyond 'a scout is reverent. People are acting here like there are all types of religious ceremonies, and I can speak as a 10 year leader that it just ain't so. But I agree with steve and plooka that it is time for the BSA to rethink. It is also time for teh bigots to understand that gay men and women are no more prone to harm children than straight men or women perhaps less so. It's a shame that a great organization that could be a leader in training young men for the future is still trying to live in the past.
@Ragtopz: actually there is a great deal of emphasis on religion and "God" based beliefs in the BSA program. Every level of Cub Scouting has a required section that deals with religious affiliation. I'm not willing to call it "BS" because I truly believe in walking the path of tolerance and acceptance but it does make the program very uncomfortable for those of us who don't support organized religion but do want the Scouting experience for our children. The real shame, here, is that such a great organization that does so much good for children and communities would choose to teach those children that respect and opportunity are only available for the select few and that the values they supposedly uphold come with caveats.
This is one of the few areas where the Mormons and Southern Baptists who run the BSA national organization agree - they both hate gays and atheists almost as much as they used to hate blacks.
skrekk
"almost as much as they used to hate blacks."
What do you mean, used to? They're just getting better at disguising it.
I was a scout as a kid. Our primary objective every week was to ditch the scout master as quickly as possible and have fun.
I find the use of the word hate funny, since as a Mormon myself i find i don't hate anyone. Having a difference of opinion about moral issues is one thing but try talking to a member of the group before you start painting the whole organization as, as you would said, bigoted racists.
Oh and Hartvig Lein the missionary that knocked on my door was about 6 foot 3 inches and was about as black as a man could be. So again try talking to people from a group before you judge them.
From the Book of Mormon:
And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities." (2 Nephi 5:21)
"the missionary that knocked on my door was about 6 foot 3 inches and was about as black as a man could be. "
There have been blacks that have tried to join the Klux Klux Klan as well- doesn't mean it's not a racist organization.
My "they're" refers to the Mormon church as an organization. Doesn't mean that I think all Mormon's are racist.
Just delusional.
If you're a Mormon and you tithe, your money is being used to deny the civil rights of my gay daughter. It's one thing to hold homophobic religious views for yourself, but quite another to try to impose the sharia laws of your cult on all of society as the Mormon church did in Prop h8.
And regarding the hate and racism of Mormons, here's a charming quote from a 1964 letter from Mormon Apostle Delbert Stapley to Michigan Governor George Romney:
Sounds like Mormons haven't changed much at all in the past 48 years (they even still oppose mixed-race marriage). No wonder the BSA are such bigots, since they're controlled by Mormons and Southern Baptists.
Hartvig
The Elder didn't try to join the church he WAS and still is a member of the church who recently got married and had his first child, im very happy for him.
Black males weren't allowed to recieve the priesthood because of the exact scripture that you took only part of. We believe god can give curses out, it wasn't being racist it was doing what god said because their decendants weren't ready to recieve the priesthood. You point to this and say how racist it is, yet i've spoken with black men whose father's were members of the church BEFORE the lord allowed black men to recieve the priesthood and they WERE members of the church. Baptised and confirmed just not able to recieve the priesthood yet, awaiting the day that it would change (and it did).
We believe this is following with commandments of god, now i know you don't believe that and that's your choice but there's nothing racist about saying god says this group of people aren't ready for this responsibility yet.
skrekk
Firstly the LDS church did not force anything upon anyone prop 8 was a legally voted on measure and if you think all the people who voted on it were all LDS members then your just being foolish. The percent of California that is LDS is nowhere near the percentage of people who voted on prop 8. Second the LDS church was not the only church to support prop 8, a lot of people focus on our church yet the Catholic church and Baptist churches all also supported the prop. In fact finacially the Catholics gave the most.
Next i'd like to address your letter, first it's source is dubious as i couldn't find a single link to it from any authorized church website (Lds.org Mormon.com ect). But i'd like to quote part of it that you yourself didn't mention indeed it was at the top of the letter which im sure you cherry picked out only what made your point look good which is,
So he's only stating his opinion and not speaking for the church. Individuals make mistakes, people can screw up! I know i have, i know you have! Every person walking the world has made mistakes! Pointing out one person's and saying he represents the whole group is dubious logic at best, ESPECIALLY when he makes a point of saying he's NOT speaking for the group.
Unless she was openly discussing her sexual orientation I see no reason for it to matter. I saw where it was said 'whose membership was revoked in April 10 because she is a lesbian', not 'whose membership was revoked in April 10 because she openly discusses being a lesbian with young members'
Banning atheists also seems to be going too far to me, unless they 'openly war against God'. BSA, however, is technically a private group and entitled to their choices. I find those choices ignorant, though, and will never have a kind word to say about the group itself until policies change. Individual members, however, I hold no ill will toward
If the rules include things that are evil, then you should not follow the rules. Banning somebody for being who they are born to be is evil. It feeds the bully machine. It enables people who consider themselves to be moral and good to actually be "evil." It is evil to ban, bully or mistreat somebody based on who they were born to be.
One wish I have is that all parents who act this way have a gay child who comes out to them. Then they have to grapple with emotions they did not plan on having. Love your child for who he/she is? Or ban them from your family circle? Or try to change them? If you ban them or try to change them, and they experience rejection from the one place in this world they are supposed to be loved and supported, their family, then you risk having them kill themselves due to your cruel rejection.
I hope all conservatives give birth to gay children. Then they would learn more about "love" then they ever thought they would. Love knows to boundaries. If you truly love, you truly accept.
That is what your Jesus would have done. Jesus never condemned anybody but moneychangers.