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Subscribe to RSSCalifornia may ban a controversial therapy designed to convert teens from gay to straight. KNBC-TV's Patrick Healy reports.
A California lawmaker says he’s optimistic about the prospects of a bill that would make it illegal for therapists in the state to try to “convert” gay youths.
Sen. Ted Lieu, a Democrat from Torrance, says so-called “reparative” or “ex-gay” therapy wrongfully treats homosexuality as a disease and can be dangerous to minors. If his bill becomes law, California would become the first state to ban therapy aimed at turning gay and lesbian teens straight.
“Some therapists are taking advantage of vulnerable people by pushing dangerous sexual orientation-change efforts,” Lieu said before the Senate Judiciary Committee voted to approve the bill on Tuesday. “These non-scientific efforts have led in some cases to patients later committing suicide, as well as severe mental and physical anguish.”
SB 1172 now goes to the full Senate. No date for a vote has been set, but it will likely be in the next month, according to Lieu. If it passes there, it would face action in the Assembly.
“For decades, gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people — particularly youth — have suffered psychological abuse by those who are entrusted to care for their emotional and psychological well-being,” Clarissa Filgioun, board president of Equality California, an advocacy organization that sponsored the bill, said in a statement. “It's long past time to do everything in our power to put an end to the use of therapy tactics that have no sound scientific basis and that cause lifelong damage.”
President Obama says he now supports same-sex marriage, ending months of equivocation on a subject with powerful election-year consequences. NBC's Brian Williams and Chuck Todd reports.
The bill would ban children under 18 from undergoing so-called “sexual orientation change efforts,” often referred to by the acronym SOCE. It would also require adults seeking such treatment to sign informed-consent forms indicating that they understand potential dangers of reparative therapy that the bill lays out, including depression and suicide, and that it has no medical basis.
“I feel confident that the bill will pass,” Lieu told msnbc.com on Wednesday. “The facts are on our side.”
His comments came on the same day that Barack Obama became the first U.S. president to publicly back same-sex marriage. Obama said that, after reflection, he had concluded “it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same-sex couples should be able to get married."
Obama: 'I think same-sex couples should be able to get married'
SOCE techniques vary and may include visualization, behavioral and social skills training components. In some extreme cases, therapists have used electric shock or nausea-inducing drugs to try to modify the behavior of gay people, according to media reports.
Lieu says decades of research by mental health experts have shown that efforts to “repair” a person’s sexual orientation can be harmful.
Several professional groups, including the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association, have taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder, and therefore there is no need for a “cure.”
Rich Pedroncelli / AP
State Sen. Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, on Tuesday urged lawmakers to approve his bill to ban a form of psychotherapy aimed at making gay people straight.
Opponents of Lieu’s bill say it’s wrong to single out one form of therapy.
David Pickup, a licensed marriage and family therapist in California who says he was once gay and became heterosexual after undergoing reparative therapy starting in his 30s, says a ban would prevent some people from recovering from trauma of sexual abuse.
Pickup, who trained under the supervision of psychologist Joseph Nicolosi -- considered by many to be the father of modern reparative therapy -- traveled to Sacramento on Tuesday to testify against the bill.
He said its backers are "egregiously misquoting the science” by contending that all SOCE is harmful. He also said the bill “takes away parents’ rights to have any input on their sons’ and daughters’ ambiguousness about sexuality.”
“I was one of those abused boys, so people like me can’t receive this kind of help, which in my opinion is just horrific,” Pickup told msnbc.com. “I’ve dealt with these issues and come out extremely happy. Reparative therapy saved my life.”
Pickup is a member of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, or NARTH, which describes itself as an organization that “offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality.” NARTH calls the bill “a scientific and legislative travesty.”
“The fact that this legislation is solely directed at SOCE should be a red flag suggesting that ideological and political motivations may motivate backers of this legislation as much as any concern for consumers derived from the relevant science,” the group says. “NARTH believes this effort, if successful, would set a dangerous precedence for the mental health professions, unjustly restrict client rights, and almost certainly invite legal action.”
Exodus International, a Florida-based Christian group that has “ex-gay” ministries and churches across the country, including about three dozen in California, declined to comment on the bill on Wednesday, saying the matter was "outside the scope of our ministry."
Other professional groups say they think the bill is well-intended but needs to be tweaked.
A coalition including the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, California Psychiatric Association, California Psychological Association, and the Association for Licensed Professional Clinical Counselors is seeking amendments to the bill.
“Our big concern is that the definition of sexual orientation change efforts is overbroad and too much is open to interpretation,” said Jill Epstein, executive director of the state marriage and family therapists association. “It could have a chilling effect on legitimate explorations of gender identity issues.”
Lieu says his office is working with the coalition to address the concerns.
He says public response to the bill has been overall very positive. But he’s also been the recipient of a steady stream of hate emails, phone calls and tweets, including one person who recently tweeted him: “I know that you are not a Christian, but God exists and you will not enter the kingdom of heaven for this.”
Lieu tweeted in response: “You do not decide, God does.”
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I see a a plot for a new 'X-Men' movie forming.........
Staring John Travolta! lol
Music by Elton John
I see the most intolerant segment of society rears it's head... Liberal community. You love to say (not trying to start religious bickering) that Evolution is a science based fact but turn around and say modern physcology is "child abuse"... sure... there are segments (treatments) that I think are weird but that is the minority.... the article CLEARLY is talking about counseling for those who questions their sexual orientation... nothing more... not "shocking" kids and measuring arousal. Limiting choice and forcing homosexual lifestyle is the aim of such legislation. ... a quick perusal of LGBT My new word: LeGiBiTs web sites and you see that they think that those who "switch" from gay to strait are either A: Never was gay or B: brainwashed/tortured to change... They (gays) HATE the "switchers... it just shows they are really the ones who are intollerant of any opposite view. . Final note... Show me any evidence that Legibit behaviour is genetic....
Im a Christian, and as such, I find it hard to symphathize with the gay community. However, the means this type of therapy sometimes uses is appalling to me. If you want to sit down and have a chat about it, pray about it, because you dont wish to be homosexual, then I will encourage you all the way. But using drugs, shocking the genitals and watching porn is disgusting........and deeply disturbing. I believe that id someone wants to change, GOD will help them.....and I dont think HE needs shock therapy to accomplish it
First SB48 and now this, it should illegal for any democrat to come up with a bill in California. I'm kinda sick of gays trying to push their lifestyle through ardent propaganda. Homosexuality has never been proven to be natural or biological. This bill is begging the question by assuming that gays can't change and that their sexuality has been set in stone. Who came up with that conclusion? To me that sounds like denial on their parts. Science has never said that it is, so I think this is just an effort to block people from hearing the truth. If gay teens can change through therapy, what's the big issue? Conversion therapy might even save lives. Oh wait, gays don't want to be cured, they want to be homosexual and try to get it accepted as normal. No one has ever conclusively proven a person can't change their orientation.
Push their lifestyle? This bill is about stopping straights from pushing THEIR lifestyle on gays!!!!!!
Why does it need to be proven - some people just are.
When I was growing up one of my best friends had 2 twin brothers that didn't want to play with us and I couldn't find any common ground to play with them. All this at an age where sex wasn'r ever a thought.
One of the neighborhood mothers ran into one of the twins some 30 years later BOTH were gay.
My 24 year old daughter had a friend in elementary school that was obviously gay. His brothers and sisters were not.
He was at my house often, there was no question he was gay.
People are born that way - and yes there have been studies, but I don't need them. I have seen it with my own eyes.
I am gay
I fought it for years due to societal pressure
I do not have a lifestyle, I have a life
It is not a preference, it is an orientation
Until I accepted myself I was miserable, now I am very happy and live a full life with someone I love and have loved for 19 1/2years.
I don't have any interest in porn, am monogamous, don't abuse drugs, liquor or smoke. I don't go to bars, My life is about my hubby, my friends, family and our dog. We like to travel, I watch baseball, go to cultural events. Dote on my nephews and nieces (I am the uncle kids dream of having at Birth days and Christmas)
In other words I live my life just about like almost every other happy couple does. Once I realized that the haters had no real power over me and I did not respect them...my life became pretty darn good.
FYI I know there was something different about me when I was about 6, by the time I was 10 I knew what it was without all the details or knowing what it was called. Nobody sexually abused me. But due to the hate I did not really know exactly what it was until I was 21 and did not act on it until I was 26.
So begone you haters and liars...before I drop that proverbial house on you!
The gay bashing has gone on far enough! Let these people and children be who they are. You have no right to impose any restriction on an American that chooses to live their life as they see fit!
Merely because you do not understand the needs of people trapped in another gender, does not give you the right to impose a law to restrict those that do understand. Ignorance is not something you legalize. Rather, ignorance is something that must be stamped out.
Understanding and compassion are the true core values when evaluating someone's life and the meaning it has to them.
The red-neck is rapidly failing to have any impetus in this civilization. The right wing will be reformed through logic and understanding. Let people live "THEIR" lives! Freedom and liberty for all!!!
ItIsWhatI!t!s,
First, I like your idea that people who disagree with you shouldn't be allowed to participate in democracy. That is a very important aspect of something called "Fascism." I'm afraid we don't practice it in the United States, but you are free to leave if you dislike this nation's Constitution so much.
Second, I doubt your claims of scientific ambiguity on the subject of homosexuality are based on any extensive research or peer-reviewed studies. There is essentially a universal consensus among scientists and psychologists (i.e. people who are much more qualified to answer the question than you are) that sexual orientation is not a choice.
It is also interesting that you portend to know so much about what "the gay community" wants. How many openly gay people do you know personally? That's not a question I want you to answer, because this is the Internet and everyone can have whatever friends they want on the Internet. That's a question you should ask yourself before trying to speak for a rather large minority of people.
WHAT? Ben Gay....never use the stuff.... stinks too much. I just take some arthritis pain killers and use the heat pad...........What?...Oh...you said Ban Gays.........nevermind.
California leads the nation in "social engineering", for those of you wishing to raise a family in accordance with the values "you" believe in,...you should seriously consider a state other then California!
JOregon-I'm sorry but you are simply wrong. I can sense your sincerity and your frustration. Here's what a rural, Christian mom in the midwest is thinking. "I've spent my life trying to raise my children the right way...the way I was instructed to in my Bible. I do it because I love my children with all my heart and want them to have the best in life. Now the government is sanctioning something that every fiber in my being says is wrong. Further, they are going to teach that to my children, going against everything I have taught them." That's not the thought of a hate-mongerer. It's the desperation of a mother feeling the world closing in on her family.
people are complaining about taking away their parental rights... what rights do you have as a parent? In the state of PA, NONE. The state owns your child until they are 18 years old, you just raise them, provide financial support, maybe SOME life advice...
But really?? After all the facts are out about the "Reversal Therapy" which is a complete scam imo, You would send your Child to that? Really?? Maybe you shouldn't be a parent to begin with!!!
I think some people should have to pass a test to become a parent. If you fail it 3 times in a row, you become sterilized.
Revelator7 ~ The only thing you can do, is raise your child the best you can. Nobody is blaming you for producing a homosexual offspring. You also can't blame yourself for producing the child. But from your post, I realize that you are truly a mother that cares about the well being of her children.
Kudos!! But, let's put you in the situation of having a homosexual child, would you put them in therapy that has been known to do more damage than good? Risking the relationship you have between you and your child, for something that has only been proven by 2 people thus far?
I honestly don't think you would. I think you would love your child no matter what they are, how they turn out. Because that's what God does.
A parent who truly loves their child would not send them to a therapy in which they will be abused until they agree to what they have been told to agree to. It's also called brain washing.
I'm a straight Christian woman not really involved in the gay community, but the comments being made here trouble me. NO ONE it seems is forcing anyone to be straight. From what I read in the article the therapy seems to be for those questioning their sexuality. Being attracted to someone of the same sex, or finding same sex attractive doesn't necessarily make you gay. Having a same sex experience doesn't Necessarily make you gay.
Myself, I would like to know how many of the so called "conversion" sessions actually succeeded. The article says that some have become depressed and committed suicide. Did the therapy actually cause them to commit suicide? How many openly gay teens commit suicide? How many straight teens commit suicide?
I'm no advocate for the gay community but I think that some form of therapy might be good for some kids troubled by their growing sexuality and the questions they can't speak about to their parents. Not to "Convert" them per se' but to help them to come to grips with the reality of their lives.
Rev 7
The Government isn't sanctioning anything - They are saying you can't torture your child to drive the gay out of them.
This "Therapy" is just another type of Salem Witch trials.
Nothing makes me sicker than child abuse.
This is what conversion therapy does:
PART 1
PART 2
PART 3
You may think it is OK to force your kids to be what they are not. Your belief is a perversion of the word of God.
Child abuse must stop.
Oops almost missed it.
PART 5
This was Great series by Anderson Cooper and if you don't tear up there is no love in your heart.
I'm thankful to God I don't live in CA. I'm thankful even more I don't have to deal with the abnormalities and perversions some unlucky parents have to face. If I happened to be one of such parents, I'd sooner moved out of state than had my parental options so blatantly limited by the state denying the treatment option.
Let the parents decide... Wait, isn't CA turning into a Communist state that knows better than its subjects what to do with their lives?
You do realize that these therapies often are aversion therapies that require the kid to view gay porn while having their arousal measured and then get shocked or nauseated via drugs? I had a friend who went through that -- he was very religious and really wanted to be straight, so he himself paid for the therapy. They actually shocked his penis every time he got aroused by gay porn. The therapy failed to convert him of course, but was pretty much abuse. Also, many of these therapists themselves are suspect of being gay and or pedophile. If these are the parental options you want, then you should probably be in jail.
Hey JulianAB - Anonymous User probably gets off on that kinda stuff thats why he wants "parents to decide" lol!! What a moron. It's always better than thous like him who support that kind of twisted crap. Like isn't the most gay porn consumed in Salt Lake City Utah? - home of the Morons - oops i mean Mormons. Typical.
I don't get you anonymous you must support child abuse if a parent want's to beat there kids then I guess it's ok to you? You heartless POS!
This is obviously a bill meant to restrict the rights of gay people.
Anonymous User
Really? People like you push me to support gay rights just because you're so f*ckin nasty about it. We're talking about human beings, right?
And on THAT NOTE, I really can't understand why anyone would be opposed to a person making the PERSONAL CHOICE to seek therapy of any kind, as long as that is THEIR FREE CHOICE.
To take any other stance is really just forcing people to accept homosexuality whether they want to or not.
Sexual orientation is genetic and cannot be "chosen" so conversion therapy is really just child abuse. Many victims of this therapy commit suicide because they are constantly told how evil they are. Anonymous User is telling us that if you favor a law against child abuse, you're a commie. How pathetic.
Californians are happy, too!
making a law to not be able to force kids to this therapy is not restricting the rights of gay people - or i guess this would be the same as making a law to end all white only hospitals and back of the bus is just restricting the rights of black people too so we better end all civil rights laws to help people
ANONYMOUS USER, Californians are probably overjoyed that you don't live in their state, too. I feel very sorry for anyone unfortunate enough to be your offspring. I suggest neutering for you, as soon as possible.
Give me even one iota of scientific evidence (genetic Jim? Since when?) that homosexuality is not a choice, then maybe I woud support a law like this. Actually, no I wouldn't; I'm tired of overzealous California politicians trying to make a name for themselves by shoving their pet-peeve laws down our throat. Gadz, leave us alone for Pete's sake!
Ever since Arnold left as govenor of CA, the state has begun to look more and more like the USSR.
I'm from California....Believe me 'Arnold' was a Democrat in Republican clothing...
Seriously, this crap is the least of our problems. We have 13+% unemployment, more people TAKING a check from the state than putting in, stupid law makers kiss the butt of the fringe elements of this state, over crowding, housing crisis, the schools are garbage, not one thing has been done for improving our infrastructure, Tax, Tax and Tax that is spent on people who don't belong here or don't deserve it, we're on the verge of an epic collapse....
But, gays have made it to our school text books and now this BS...For the record, I have no dog in this fight. I don't have anything against gays, want to marry, I have not problems with that. I agree that being gay is not a choice, you're born that way. But for Bullwinkle sake, I'm sick of hearing about them. The people of this state have voted TWICE already on this issue... You lost.
I'm so glad I'm leaving California soon, taking my tax dollars with me!
Ok for Tod and Jim. You both need to catch up on scientific reading....
First, Jim, homosexuality is highly unlikely to be considered solely a genetic trait. The studies done on it have difficulty in replicating the findings of previous studies which shed doubt on the genetic link. There are most likely genetic markers that increase the probability of being gay, but they don't account for the heritability. There have been physiological differences between the brains of gay and straight individuals which is likely caused by the hormonal exposures in the mothers womb as the brain is developing. Also, don't take higher genetic probability as lack of choice in a matter. You're not taking into account bisexual individuals or those that tend towards the more straight or more gay. Many of them often decide which sex they will go with.
Second, for Tod. There is tremendous evidence that homosexuality is biological. I would first suggest a Wikipedia search on the biology of sexual orientation which follows up with citations from various credible sources on the matter. After you peruse that article, if you want a more in depth analysis, I would suggest a Pubmed search for recent publications regarding homosexuality. I'll leave these searches to you seeing as they are very easy to perform to gain the information you requested.
Also, politicians in general try to shove pet-peeve laws down your throat all the time. This is not specific to California. This was recently seen in NC with the ban upon gay marriage. Those law makers shoved that law down the throats of various gay people in NC. We can go on and on with examples of this happening all over the place (DMCA, SOPA, the Patriot Act) so being pissed off about California doing it is rather silly. You're statement of "leave us alone for Pete's sake" is pretty much echoed by individuals all over the place. The problem though is that very often someone that says "leave us alone for Pete's sake" is more than willing to infringe upon the basic rights of someone else because it doesn't effect them.
Finally, for both of you. You really really need to stop thinking of sexual preference as a one or the other. This is one of these biggest mistakes people make when talking about this and other similar issues. They then take evidence of it being one or the other and use it to state that it's one or the other. They then proceed to ignore evidence that supports the opposite position. However, if you think of sexual preference and many other traits in terms of a spectrum as opposed to one or the other, it's far easier to see how you can have evidence of both occurring in nature.
THere has NEVER been found a gay gene. Please. It's environment, plus brain structure, and a spiritual element. It's a dysfunctional lifestyle.
davsie.. they haven't found a gene for many things that science still says are GENETIC. How is it environment if you grew up with straight parents, straight friends, and in a religious homophobic family?? The only thing dysfunctional is being hated for something you cannot control and/or trying to be straight or being forced to 'act' straight when you're obviously not. I was miserable until I finally found that what I wanted was more important than what others wanted me to be. Once I faced the fact that I was gay the cloud over my head began to lift. When I met my wife, all was finally right with the world and I was totally happy and satisfied. I've met many dysfunctional "lifestyles" in my life, and they all happened to belong to straight people.
So Tod I suppose you can choose to be attracted to men then. That's interesting because I can't
Thank God stupid bigots like anonymous aren't in CA. Stay the hell out of our state and our business! If you want to subject your kids to electro-shock "therapy" on their nads, stay in your own backwards state and do it you sick malicious Neanderthal!
"Give me even one iota of scientific evidence (genetic Jim? Since when?) that homosexuality is not a choice, then maybe I woud support a law like this."
What's the point of scientific evidence when the likes of you probably don't believe certain scientific facts like evolution or the current age of the planet? They conflict with your religious views and most homophobes who agree with conversion therapy are religious and believes in creationism.
@doggysaywhat
The field of epigenetics is promising. Trigger timing during DNA methylation is being studied. In the general population, homosexual orientation occurs about 5% of the time. In pairs of fraternal twins, that percentage goes up to about 25%. In pairs of identical twins, it goes up to 50%. Clearly, there is a genetic component. These numbers are significant, and they suggest that sexual orientation is as likely to be genetically determined as left- or right-handedness.
More importantly, in pairs of identical twins in which one is gay and the other straight, both were exposed to the same familial and societal environments during upbringing. Therefore, it seems that environment makes little if any difference in determining sexual orientation.
Homosexuality has been well documented and observed in over 1500 animal species including zebras, house cats, rabbits, swans, geese, and humans. So whatever is happening is natural by definition.
Lastly, every single national organization of psychological professional has recommended against these "therapies" because they are destructive and accomplish nothing.
Jim the problem is that other studies have found far lower results for twin studies. This is the problem with calling it a genetic trait. A genetic component is rather different from a genetic trait with the connotations it implies. When you call something a genetic trait, people that listen to that will infer that it's solely based upon genetics. So, you're giving them an inaccurate view. These other studies have determined that the hormonal environment play a more important role in sexual preference. This is why calling it a genetic trait is a bad and an inaccurate statement.
Also, the field of epigenetics is still in it's infancy so while there may be suggestions that DNA methylation has a hand in sexual preference determination, it's far too early to conclude that it's genetic based upon current research. You may conclude that there is a significant genetic component, but that's very different from determining that it's solely a genetic component.
Studies for the social component have generally put numbers between 0-20% which is small but still measurable. Additionally, these studies have run into problems by using the twin comparison with selection bias. But, one can still conclude a significant genetic component. However, one can also conclude a larger hormonal one. So, again, when you say it's genetic, you are giving people an inaccurate statement that will then be used in later discussions and disproved.
Secondly, I never claimed that homosexuality was unnatural. I do know that it's found in many other species including every single great ape. As a matter of fact, a rather interesting one is the bonobo where around 60% of the sexual activity is between females. What's rather funny about bonobos is that their solution to just about every single form of conflict involves either scrotal rubbing or intercourse. For them, sex is also used as a greeting.
Also, if the national organization is far better than the average person at deciding what is and is not an acceptable therapy, then the law should be that they will dictate what is and is not an acceptable practice. Not, that a practice is outlawed entirely. The legal system is often ill-equipped to handle borderline cases because those in the legal system are rarely experts in psychology. Also, those in the legal system and those that create laws for the legal system are always under considerable pressure from various groups that are not experts in the field. This is why the power to determine if a practice should be an acceptable practice should not be left to the legal system, but instead to the panel of experts.
Finally, the argument against passing such a law is in the areas where the law is misapplied. If a consenting teenager, consenting parents, and consenting therapist decide to go through such a procedure, this law infringes upon their rights to choose a treatment. It doesn't matter if it is generally believed such treatments on average do more harm than good to the individual. You can make someone aware of such dangers, the low probability of success, and the high likelihood of a bad outcome, but the decision, whether it be based upon religious, familial, or other reasons is ultimately left up to the person going through the procedure, not you, and not the legal system.
Recommendations on whether to try a treatment are based upon odds of success vs. likelihood of failure. They're not based upon the treatment never working. Success rates are low for this type of treatment but they're non-zero. So, as long as someone is aware of the success rate, the risks involved, and the probable outcome, it is up to them to make such decisions regarding the treatment. This also applies to teenagers even though they may not have technically reached the age of consent. They're still capable of making decisions.
I realize that the motivation for this law is based upon emotional cases of forced conversion therapy. It's what gives it popular support. But, popular support is a very bad way to come up with a good law because the unintended consequences of the law are not taking into account when it comes up for a vote. If you actually want to solve such cases, then the act of forcing a teenage to go through a therapy they do not consent to should be made illegal. Not the therapy itself. Because by making the therapy illegal, you infringe upon the smaller group of people that want to try the therapy despite being aware of its odds of success.
Doggy,
Lotsa writing, not a lot of content. I've read the studies. Most of the genetic claims began with a paid for study at UCSD in the early 90's. The study was reported (basically pituitary gland in homosexual males smaller than hetero) widely, then quickly refuted due to the large sample of homosexual men having had AIDS (which shrinks the pituitary). The styudy made news, the refutation did not. You must research who paid for the study before you can make an assessment.
Jag
If you want to talk about environmental factors you must open up the door to a dirty little secret that no one wants to talk about; The relationship between child molestation/abuse and the percentage of those children who are homosexual adults.
Jim and Julian,
Child abuse and shock treatment, really? you guys are just making stuff up. Step out of your bubble and read up on both sides of the issue.
Bottom line is this; what should government support or put its stamp of approval on? The most basic/importan/foundational unit of government is the family, then it should go down in relevance and authority from there.
1) Family; Father-Mother-Children
2) Extended family
3) Community
4) County
5) State
6) Federal Government; in charge of protection from foreign invaders, and allowing for equal opportunity (enforce justice, not mandate equality)
My point: If government supports/puts its stamp of approval upon something other than the most basic/important/foundational unit of government, the family, we're done!
If you don't beleive me, ask youself this one simple question: What is at the root of a majority of our country's social ills? If you say anything but the breakdown of the family unit I mentioned above, you are not paying attention.
Tod... there's plenty of content... If you prefer to wear blinders though then no one will be able to help you... I highly doubt you've read many studies on it or been able to understand them because if you did, you would not claim that a funding source of UCSD is a conspiracy. There have been plenty of other labs across this country and in others that have come to similar conclusions that the social environment makes up a very small portion of what makes a person Gay. The genetics component is higher than the social environment, and the hormonal/other during brain development is the highest. But hey... you have a right to your opinion, even if it's wrong. You also have the right to believe the Earth is flat.
Also, there are many cases where this treatment has been used as abuse. If you're not aware of that then again, you have blinders on. However, making the treatment illegal infringes upon the rights of a small group of consenting individuals that want to try it, hence the law is a bad one. However, it is also bad to force this treatment upon a teenager against their consent.
Yep, the liberals in CA will do just about anything to secure another voter for their party AKA the Dem party!
They do nothing and want nothing done about illegal immigration, and now they want to prevent parents from seeking professional counseling about their gay kid. Another example of way too much government control.
Gee, how horrible California is for thinking about banning traumatic psychological abuse...
Another republican that can't seem to get through there thick skull that some people are born gay and they do not have a disease and they don't even need anything from you, but to be treated equally, but you can't even bring your cold heart to even be nice to a gay child. Your party is the party of hate. You hate women, gays, veterans in the military, black people, hispanic's, poor people. Who votes for these scumbags? I am totaly confused at who would support hell on earth.
Brent OC - this proposed bill doesn't affect the parents. If parents feel the need for counseling because they have a gay child, they are free to seek it. All this bill wants to do is to prevent parents of gay children from forcing them into unnecessary conversion therapy that consists of child abuse.
The editor of a large gay magazine once lamented that the belief that gays are born gay made it very difficult to recruit straight people to the gay life style.
Yes Fred, that was THE ONION you saw it in.
this stuff is not professional counseling
if it was professional counseling then it should also be ok to hit a kid with a tree branch every time they do things wrong - abuse if from a parent but therapy if from a person claiming to be a counselor or some other therapy center
How old are you, Brent? You sound like about a 12 year old. You're obviously completely uneducated given the baloney that you post. Get a life.
If your kid is gay then NO, you're NOT going to "change" them, they are what they are, and you need to accept that fact and get it through your thick skull while you still have a relationship with your kid at all.
If a minor under the age of 18 is discovering their sexual identity and identifies with being gay, then they are gay. There is nothing "wrong" with them, they are not the least bit "abnormal" and they do not "need" to be "counseled" or "cured".
They need to be loved and accepted for who and what they are -- not subjected to horrific psychological damage at the hands of quack "therapists" employed by parents in an effort to make the kid into something they are not.
There have been too many suicides, too many rejections of gay & lesbian teens at the hands of their bigoted hateful "Christian" gay-hating parents and too many deaths and tragedies caused by this so-called "therapy". It needs to stop, and stop now.
The people needing therapy are not gay or lesbian kids, for whom just being a teenager is already a horrific enough experience to have to go through.
The people needing the therapy are their hateful and deluded parents, who need to learn once and for all to love and accept their kids unconditionally for who and what they are.
Actually Jim, the proposed bill does affect both the parents and children. The intent may be to stop situations where forceful conversion occurs, but by outlawing the procedure entirely, you are intruding upon both parents and children that have decided they want to undergo such therapy. That is where this bill and many others have severe problem. Unfortunately, for hot button topics, laws are often passed without considering their unintended consequences. While trying to prevent situations where conversion therapy was forced upon an individual, you are unintentionally limiting the freedom of someone under the age of 18 to make a choice regarding which therapies they want to try.
The measure of a law is not in the intent but in the unintended consequences it causes.
If you want to pass a law that states that individuals must be informed of the success rate of a procedure, the possible side effects, or the risk of various actions, that's fine. If you also want to pass a law stating that a review board can revoke a therapists license for misapplication of a therapy, that's also fine. But, outright banning a technique or procedure through popular vote is a horrible idea because the general populace is rarely ever well-informed enough regarding such things to make decisions on their applications. The decision of whether or not a procedure is an accepted practice should be left to experts in the field of psychotherapy and not to someone who's knowledge about it comes from Google searches. The experts in the field have a far lower error rate than the voting populace.
"Your party is the party of hate. You hate women, gays, veterans in the military, black people, hispanic's, poor people. "
Do you know how stupid you sound right now? Sarah Palin is a female Republican, Hermain Cain is a black Republican, and John McCain is a war veteran (Republican). Do you want to know who the real hater is? It's the person randomly making up garbage just to throw at the other party, but in case your still not smart enough to understand, I'm talking about YOU. It's time to grow up!
In northern California, they are getting ready to pass a bill outlawing circumcisions...
Parents, Kids don't need no sticking parents, just the nanny state....
But your policies hurt women, blacks, veterans and poor people. Just because there are a few folks with Stockholm syndrome around does not change that!
Doggysaywhat -
First, let me just point out that children lack legal consent and cannot make a decision on their own. And it is not up to anyone's parents to decide to abuse their children. Children targeted by this disgusting "therapy" are usually damaged.
If you're suggesting I use Google searches for my information, I am insulted.
I agree that the efficacy of any treatment methodology should be left to experts in the field of psychotherapy. So here are my experts.
These conversion therapies are condemned by the American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the American Academy of Physician Assistants.
Is that enough?
No Jim, what I'm saying is that the average person is not an expert in the field of psychology. They generally get their information from sources like Google or the internet. They should not be making decisions regarding this because they are not experts in that field.
Secondly, if these panels of experts believe that such conversion therapies should not be used, then the law should be that they have the power to dictate what is and is not an acceptable practice, not you or the general populace. If you're supporting this law, then no you don't believe that the treatment methodology should be determined by experts, you believe that the general populace should enact laws based upon what they believe is the best plan. This is where the problem lies. This should never be left to the voting populace because the panel of experts is far better at making such decisions. The law should be that they and those that may undergo such treatments make decisions on this matter, not you, not me, and not the voting populace.
Third, teenagers may lack legal consent, however, they are still capable of making decisions for themselves. This is shown in the difference between consent practices for teenagers vs. those under the age of 12 and 7. They may not have full legal rights, but they do not entirely lack consenting ability. They may not be able to make the decision entirely on their own, but they are still able to have serious input into such decisions. This is why when I give examples (See somewhere in page 2 or 3) I use consenting teenagers and consenting parents.
Finally, there are many activities which will usually cause harm to an individual. However, after knowing risks of such an activity and the chances of success, the choice of participation is still left to the individual. If you start taking that away, you end up no better than the group of people that want to force their belief about homosexuality on you. If you want to make someone aware of the risks, the probability of success, etc. through various laws regarding consent and punishment for not obtaining appropriate consent, that works as a law. Restricting a small group's choice to make a treatment decision does not work as a law. This is why the rare decision to restrict such a practice completely should not be left to the emotionally charged voting populace, but to the panel of experts.
Is it really believed that teennagers would be making the decision to go see a "sexual orientation therapist" in these cases; vs. the parent making the choice, and driving their kid down? An assumption is being made that all parents are the sort who will just ask their kids if they want something like this, and....
Perhaps also, when it comes to parents divorcing a 14 year old should be listened to when it comes to which parent gets custody, etc as well.... But I know matter of fact, that at least in one person's case this was not done.... More often then not the adults would be "making grown up decisions" and then as parents or gaurdianns pretty much take them along without necessarily considering that they have a choice in the matter, or giving them one.... It isn't like if they don't agree, there's a whole lot they could do without being considered a "disobediant kid", "bad kid", etc....
Whatever one's views on this subject happen to be, I'm almost surprised to hear it suggested that the kid is exercising their own judgement and the parents would be exercising the kid's wishes rather then their own :o
doggysaywhat, I'd like to comment on just a few of your points.
Your first and second points seem pretty much the same--that these issues should be decided by experts in the field rather than by the general populace. While I tend to agree with you on this, the facts are that, though many experts have come out opposing conversion therapy, none of it seems to be binding on either parents or the therapists. Therefore, it seems that the general population will have to decide to terminate the therapy.
At the end of your post, you state that if you take away the choice,
What I really don't understand is what all the fuss is about? In what way are gay people forcing their lifestyle on you? Are you invited into their bedrooms? Do you feel that you'll have to attend gay weddings? Does it matter to you whether or not gays receive equal rights under the law? How will it make your life different?
Why not just allow equal rights under the law? It won't hurt you in any way, and it will give some needed protections to others.
Jim,
The "societies" you quoted often band together around "political" causes they have no business weighing in on. In the late 50's they put out a "proclamation" that Barry Goldwater was a Psychopath. My teachers union often puts out politicla "proclamations" that have no basis in reality, and veryy little to do with what most teachers believe.
My point: So what!!
Kirgami, if the experts are better at deciding such things, then the law should be that they get to make the decisions. Not the general populace when it comes to treatment. You can organize this in a panel fashion.
Second, if there is a treatment that a small portion of the population believes they want to try to change something about themselves, and you restrict it. You are infringing upon their rights to make a decision regarding such treatment, even if this treatment has a very small chance of accomplishing what they want it to do. This is no better than restricting rights to marry, tax rights etc. The things you mentioned, gay weddings, bedroom rights, equal rights under the law etc. are not infringing upon anyone rights. Hence they should be allowed. Restricting a medical procedure for a small group of people that want to try it is infringing upon someone's rights, hence it should not be allowed and if it is allowed, the decision should be made by experts in the field and not the voting populace.
Why shouldn't as many young people be saved as possible?
Because these therapies require the kid to view gay porn while having their arousal measured and then get shocked or nauseated via drugs? I had a friend who went through that -- he was very religious and really wanted to be straight, so he himself paid for the therapy. They actually shocked his penis every time he got aroused by gay porn. The therapy failed to convert him of course, but was pretty much abuse. Also, many of these therapists themselves are suspect of being gay and or pedophile.
Because they don't need to be "saved." This "saving" is basically psychological torture to teach people, usually teenagers, to associate pain with their natural sexual orientation.
Saved from what?
Common man: Saved from what? Being themselves?
tex, A cure for what? Stupidity? If that's what you are talking about, then I'm all for it.
This kind of "therapy" sounds very much similar to what CAN (the cult awareness network) used to do, prior to Scientology taking it over, as a consequene to a lawsuite they filed on it... And those "therapies" were linked back to some practices the Nazis engaged in... If it's the self same sort of thing; the real question should be why any parennt would WANT to subject their own child to that, regardless of their beliefs on homosexuality would happen to be.
And then if it isn't the case, perhaps the kid just didn't mind playing with both boys and girls when they were younger (but had no such attraction involved) then what? They've just subjected their kid to pornography... Umm, really?
Will you deny a cure for heterosexuality to those who want it? After all, if one sexuality can be "cured", all of them can.
"Conversion Therapy" is a scam. Not only should be illegal, but practitioners and proponents of it should be jailed for life.
Actually it is not a scam - it often times works. Homosexuality is a disfunction often orginating in the early formative years when a child gets mixed signals from the adults around him. The therapy corrects this, enabling the person to live a normal life. I would rather my child get this therapy than live a shortened, unhappy life.
Sorry Dave, but there is not a thread of reputable evidence to support your ludicrous claim, not one.
Rick, you are speaking as one who doesn't know. There are numerous ministries and counseling groups whose sole focus is to lead people back into the sexual wholeness of being straight (and married). Andy Commiskie has had outstanding success in California with his Living Waters ministry. Metanoia is the preeminent ex-gay ministry in America. These groups success rate goes far into discovering that not only is the biological predisposition to be a myth, but that wholeness can only be achieved by returning to one's created purposes.
Revelator, the fact that there are numerous "ministries and counseling groups" doesn't mean that they are or do anything remotely legitimate. There are also thousands of fortune tellers.
There are so many, many factors which can impact a child's self-perception. A parent's role is defined by guiding, teaching, counseling, and, where PARENTS feel appropriate, obtaining professional counseling for their children in helping them understand themselves and cope with life. This attempt by the State, on behalf of a very vocal political special interest, to prevent parents from teaching and guiding their children in regards to moral issues is way beyond the pale. If I were a parent in CA faced with this issue, I would fight tooth and nail against it. What's next, no taking children to church until they're 18? Keep the State out of my home and my family, just like the GLTG demanded we take the State out of their bedrooms!
Young people do NOT "need" to be "guided" into forcibly accepting a sexual identity that is not theirs.
It's not up to the parents whether their kid will turn out gay or lesbian. It's the responsibility of the PARENTS to understand and accept that if their kid is gay or lesbian, then their kid is gay or lesbian and that's all there is to it. That's the end of the discussion. The parents have no "say" over their offsprings' sexual identity - none at all, ever. It's not "their" "decision" to make, never was, never will be, because it isn't a "choice" at all, it's how their kids were born.
If the parents can't love and accept their kids for the beautiful, wonderful, creative and YES SEXUAL BEINGS that they are, then they deserve to lose whatever relationship they ever had with their kids.
Willy, if my child has the genetic markers for a psychopath, and a brain scan which indicates lack of function in the portions of the frontal an parietal lobes which pre-dispose him to be a mass murderer, do I tell him "You're a mass murderer, so just go do what you will do, and it's not my problem"? (Yes, these are recently identified, proven conditions.) No, nurture has at least as much to do with who my child will become, not to mention his own choices. My duty as a parent, both to my child and to society, is to love him and support him in becoming the very best person he can be. There are many examples of persons with markers for psychopathy who are good, productive, and caring people. The major difference is how they were raised. Not that GLBT is equivalent to psychopathy and mass murder, but the scale and complexity of the relative evidence for pre-disposition is very similar. I choose to teach my children that heterosexuality is the norm. If they choose otherwise, for whatever reason, when they reach their majority, that's up to them. But a 13-year-old does not have the brain development of make a firm and final determination of his or her sexuality, and I am not going to pretend they do. That is where being a parent comes in. But, for most of those who are homosexual, being a parent and the complexities of that obligation will rarely be an issue. (That's my cheap shot for the day, in frustration with the numbskulls who want to make sexuality a political issue.) Just thank YOUR parents they weren't gay, or you wouldn't be here.
Dave, this is to outlaw torture... Should we torture our youth at the same time they are going though so much? Bullying is rampant in schools. You would be surprised at who the bullies are. This is a way to stop legal child abuse.
Counterpoint: Sexual Beings
Yes, we are sexual beings. Basic Biology: Our bodies are designed for reproduction. This is the natural biological order. Homosexuality deviates from that norm. Hence it is unnatural to the natural design. However, the practice and exercise of sex is a matter of choice. You can be celebate or not celebate, and that is a choice.
Where I believe many become confused is equating emotional love with the expression of sexual desires. That's true for Heterosexuals and Homosexuals. As my grandfather always lectured me, 'Even the dogs do it in the street.' There certainly is a lot of talk about love today, but usually that's refrenced to sex. Love and sex are two different things.
As I see it, (for what its worth), it is out of love that parents would want to steer their children away from a lifestyle that would set them up for a life outside the norm. Because if it were normal, then it would have been an intregal and accepted part of civilization for a long, long time. However, I don't support the extreme measures that has been purported in this article as a means of therapy.
Dave T,
Did you just compare homosexuals to psychopathic mass-murderers?
That is a rather egregious example, don't you think? Apparently not.
And for everyone who argues it's a choice: fine, for the sake of argument, let's say it's a choice.
When my sister told my parents she could no longer be a Catholic, they were sad and wanted her to change her mind. The gave her books and had long discussions with her to no avail. That was her choice. They either respect it or lose out on their relationship with her. Fortunately, for everyone involved, they accepted her choice.
What they did not do was send her to some sort of "conversion therapy" where she was made to feel like a sub-human who has a disease and is unnatural.
Yay, mom & dad!
This puts Marcus Bachmann out of a job if this spreads to other states.
Now you know why he got his Swiss citizenship.
Sexual cultism.
Well yeah, it IS abuse...
Brainwashing a minor should be against the law, let kids be who they are. I hope more states follow suit and put this nightmare to a rest.
Teaching children moral behavior is not brainwashing.
but if you want to say it is, then I am all for it.
What is moral about abusing a child into behaving against how he or she is born, Jeff?
You can't teach sexual orientation. Were you taught to be straight? No, the feelings developed themselves when you hit puberty.
You can no more "teach" a straight man to be aroused by gay porn than you can "teach" a gay man to be aroused by women.
right and wrong can be taught but doubt it on being a packer or lezbo. it is totally unnatural to be that way but what the hell immorality is the agenda of the liberal. Just like AIDS is being spread by gays intentionally in most cases. That should be classified as mass murder but liberals could care less about that and more about marriage of gays than health of mankind.
Got any citations to support those accusations, Redd? No, I didn't think so.
(This is usually when Redd stop responding)
no you would be wrong toasty. Your so quick to think you know everything about everything...guess what you do not have the market cornered in your retoric no more than I do.
This where toasty is going to tell us how natural it is for a guy to shove his penis up the butt of another guy.
Still waiting for those peer-reviewed citations, Redd.
Having worked with people with same gender attractions, that were seeking help, it would be detrimental to make seeking therapy illegal. Not everyone who has a same gender attraction wants to pursue that life-style. The state has no right to interfere.
So you're saying if they had an abusive therapy to train left-handed people to use their right hands, you'd be okay with allowing parents to force their teenagers to go to it?
Who said anything about abusive? I didn't. As a parent of grown children, there are many things that I can say, without any guilt, that I "forced" my children to do. Example: clean their room, go to school, follow through with their commitments....etc. They were children and were dependent on me/my husband for guidance. Without a doubt, as a parent, I make mistakes....as all parents do. But I can say, that most of the parents I know, hope/pray they are making the best decisions they can for their children/families because they love them. Everyone certainly has a right to live the life-style they choose.....but again, not everyone who has a same gender attraction wants to pursue that life-style. For those that do, they have the freedom to make that choice....but what about the rights of those who don't want to pursue that life-style....don't they have the right to seek guidance/counsel? The state has no right to decide that for them.
Toasty - you seem to be assuming (or defining) the therapy to be abusive. There is certainly nothing wrong with a parent sending a child to therapy if they want them to be right-handed. But then being right-handed or left-handed is not immoral. Homosexuality is.
LOL According to what? The holy babble?
How is it immoral, Jeff?
(This is usually where I stop getting responses...)
If an adult wants to try and change their sexual orientation, so be it. There is no science to prove it works. Forcing it on a youth that has no say is dangerous. We have history to show us that the likely result will be suicide, depression, and self induced mutilation.
The bill protects minors. Adults can still seek the "treatment"
Naw Toasty, here's a response.
It's not immoral, because the brilliant post WWII "progressives" long ago changed the definition of immoral to a definition of one's own situational ethics. So, in today's terms, it's probably not immoral.....but it sure as hell isn't natural. I mean, open an anatomy or biology book, apply a little common sense, and with half a brain one can conclude if nothing else, we're dealing with a misuse of the intended purpose (natural, not religious intended purpose) of anatomical "parts".
As far as being born "that way", people are born with all sorts of mental and physical abnormalities, and there are theraputical remedies for many of them so that people can live a "normal" life. I mean, people are born blind and deaf, and learn to read, write and speak....nothing's impossible, unless you really don't want to change it in the first place.
Toasty is it natural for a guy to shove his penis up the butt of another guy?
Young people do NOT "need" to be "guided" into forcibly accepting a sexual identity that is not theirs.
It's not up to the parents whether their kid will turn out gay or lesbian. It's the responsibility of the PARENTS to understand and accept that if their kid is gay or lesbian, then their kid is gay or lesbian and that's all there is to it. That's the end of the discussion. The parents have no "say" over their offsprings' sexual identity - none at all, ever. It's not "their" "decision" to make, never was, never will be, because it isn't a "choice" at all, it's how their kids were born.
If the parents can't love and accept their kids for the beautiful, wonderful, creative and YES SEXUAL BEINGS that they are, then they deserve to lose whatever relationship they ever had with their kids.
Being gay or lesbian is not a "choice". It is not a "lifestyle". It is a factor of LIFE.
If they both agree to, yes. Duh...
then my guess is your are packer fan? If biology was meant for us to be gay..well we would be A sexual like some bugs.
No, I can't stand Green Bay.
if consenting guys decided to teach the neighbor kids how to be "gay"..boofooing it would be ok as long as they consent?
How do you "teach" a person to be born a certain way?
Medical science says that to some degree homosexuality is natural
Being educated can be a good thing.
My belief is we are born as male and female...are we not? Anything beyond that is conjecture that is flawed by human prejudice.
Most people are born one sex or the other. And roughly 5% of them are born homosexual. There are also people born intersexual. This isn't conjecture, it's medical fact.
Folks, I know for a fact I was born gay. This is my nature. I love God and believe that he loves me. There have been many times in my life that He has protected me. Many times I should have died. He doesn't have a problem with love, His son spoke highly of it. The stuff in the bible was written by a bunch of old men, nobody is sure who they were. I have been with my mate for about 12 years. We have a strong relationship.
Having said that... How in the name of God can anyone put electricity to a child's gentials and call that therapy?? Don't these people realize what is going on?? I can honestly say I would LOVE to see someone do this to some of these people who think it is okay to do this to children and teenagers...
It truly is unconscionable, Sheepdog.
Sheepdog...if you love God (and yes, I agree, He does love you), why do you continue to do exactly what He asked you not to do? I don't have to quote the Biblical admonitions because I am sure you have already heard them. How do we express our love to a Perfect, Almighty God. It can't be in trying to be good because at our best we could possibly work our way up to wretched. God says...and I'm quoting Him...
"If you love Me, you will obey My commandments." That doesn't just mean the Ten Commandments but all of the instruction He has given us. I am not picking a fight. But God is clear on this and I didn't understand your position in light of it. Did you decide to love Him in the way you wanted instead of the way He asks. That sounds alot like people abusing the way He created them to have sex, not just homosexuality, but all non-marital, non-sanctioned sexuality. He also reminds us that while all things may be permissable (unfortunately), not all are good.
tex, I would never deny the cure for this. I have extra doses. It has 66 books and letters in it and you will feel like a new man.
Good for california, after all sexual preference is a natural phenomenon.
If a person is truly gay, the therapy is likely to do more harm than good. If a person is merely acting like they might be gay (not very likely) because they have been abused, then a more usual form of psychotherapy would be the way to go.
Really? I've been pushed around by all kinds of people. Social psychologists tend to believe identities are the result of socialization processes: (learned behavior) -- there isn't much emphasis placed on the possibility of disorientation, or dissociative processes.
Richard Cohen
ex-gay therapist demonstrating ex-gay therapy on cnn
this is priceless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJXWFZz0Qjo
There is no way to tell if a person is "truly gay" since there is no scientific evidence to suggest that "gayness" is anything more than behavior. People are "gay" because they commit homosexual acts. Other people are "straight" because they commit heterosexual acts. There is NO scientific basis for establishing whether a person is or is not gay. There are scientific tests for gender and race, those are not behaviors. I am not black because I do black things - that would be ridiculous. I am not a woman because I might think I am a woman. Being GAY is not a protected class nor should it be.
This is another attempt to promote immorality as moral. Homosexual acts are inherently immoral. The sooner we can teach this to children the better.
I take it you're not familiar with the scientific consensus these days? If you'd bothered to look, you'd see that it's pretty much unanimous among medical professionals that sexual orientation is inborn and immutable. Another swing and a miss for you Jeff. That's strike three.
To..Jeff"""
Who told you that..
.why would anybody choose to be gay when the world is full of people like you
I don't know any straight men that are aroused at the thought of having sex with another man. In fact, they find it repulsive. therefor, your argument is invalid.
Why would someone choose to be gay? That's ridiculous.
Young people do NOT "need" to be "guided" into forcibly accepting a sexual identity that is not theirs.
It's not up to the parents whether their kid will turn out gay or lesbian. It's the responsibility of the PARENTS to understand and accept that if their kid is gay or lesbian, then their kid is gay or lesbian and that's all there is to it. That's the end of the discussion. The parents have no "say" over their offsprings' sexual identity - none at all, ever. It's not "their" "decision" to make, never was, never will be, because it isn't a "choice" at all, it's how their kids were born.
If the parents can't love and accept their kids for the beautiful, wonderful, creative and YES SEXUAL BEINGS that they are, then they deserve to lose whatever relationship they ever had with their kids.
Being gay or straight has nothing to do with heterosexual or homosexual "acts" or "actions" at all, it has everything to do with how the person self-identifies sexually.
You can be the most sexually repressed, asexual person on the planet and still identify sexually with being gay and with having sex with members of your own gender, as the Catholic Church and the billions of dollars' worth of settlements paid out in atonement for the actions of their sexually repressed pedophile priests have proven.
Unless they're coerced, or persuaded to behave in some particular fashion. Most people are malleable. They do things that they've been conditioned to do. The idea that people are born with a particular orientation is utter nonsense!
I suspect we've seen the last of Jeff tonight.
Ray in Jax....cmon man. I'm on your side but your giving the enemy ammo. I am a Born-again, married evangelical with two kids. I have not only had sexual feelings for me...but I have had sex with men in my life...really good sex. So let's not be naive and gird up your insecurity about homosexuality just to win an argument. You can do more harm than good. When I argue against it, my position is authentic and real.
I had a friend whose parents forced him to undergo such therapy when he was a teen. It left him a broken, suicidal mess for years until he embraced himself for who he was. Anyone who has seen the results of this would hope that the government would stop this. It's child abuse, plain and simple. They made put his feelings into teddy bears and such and then forced him to mutilate and burn them and things like that. They forced him to watch gay porn and administered shocks. It was horrifying to learn about it when he finally opened up about what they had done.
Funny, just a few years ago I remember reading in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (The Psychiatrist's Bible) that homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder. This is the book that the entire mental health Community relies on to treat mental illness.
To..Bill """"
Same was said of masturbation....
It has not been in the DSM for DECADES, dear. It happened in 1973, so it's not a "few years ago" in fact, it's almost FORTY years that it's been removed.
Another swing and a miss customer.
Oh, and I am a 100% straight married woman with one child. I have never had a lesbian experience nor have I ever wanted to. But I have had a number of gay, lesbian and bi-sexual friends.
Bill Jones--40 years ago! The fact is about 10,000 psychologists believe sexual orientation can be changed, and most are members of NARTH. About 140,000 psychologists believe sexual orientation is fixed and cannot be changed. This is not a "whim" of liberals or whomever else you would like to blame. This is the consenses of a great majority of psychologists who work everyday with gay issues as well as other issues of humanity. No matter how you, and people like you, want to spin it to make your Bible appear to be inerrant, the overwhelming majority of working professionals disagree with you.
Cat...thanks for your resume. But your liberal friends have already pointed out that straight people can be wrong.
No, tex ... I prefer to raise my child with the idea of being tolerant of other people who are different from him. That extends to sexual orientation, religion, skin color, nationality, gender, political ideation and other areas. In fact, my son would be in more "danger" from straight people than from gays or bi-sexuals since the VAST majority of pedophiles are straight men.
Sex abuse isn't about sex - it is about power and domination.
JOregon is right on the money. Extensive studies have shown a strong psychological connection between sex as power and its abuse. An addiction to power can be demonstrated in individuals through their use of sex against anyone they feel they need power over, regardless of their gender.
there you go cali. lets not fix the screwed up, lets just make them even worse.
so damn sick of these faggot azz liberals.
I have a better method of fixing the screwed up.... lets just ban religion altogether and get rid of 90% of the ignorance, hate, and violence in the world today.....
getting rid of religion will do nothing to stop the hate of gays by NORMAL sexual orientated people. It is NOT natural by any stretch...of biology or nature. If we were evolved to ALL be gay there would be no human race animals etc etc.
Religion is why gays are hated and you are defining the word "normal" incorrectly as do many preachers that endorse hate.
I don't know ..but I think it's easier to turn a straight guy gay...all you need is a couple shots of Jack and a six pack...
im sure the same method can be used on fags.
Stay classy Scott.
:D
Why don't we try it on you, Scott, and see how it works out?
ScottMc-2265788, don't use gay slurs please. You are suspended for a day for violating rule # 5 of the Code of Honor.
I'd love to see what these "inflationary terms" are.
And I think you mean "inflammatory".
As the grandmother of a sexually abused boy, I strongly agree with Nickolosi.
As Tyler Perry explained regarding his own molestations, the body betrays you. It responds to stimuli, regardless of the gender of the perpetrator. This can cause great confusion to a hertosexual child and adolescent, and such a law would prevent them from receiving the necessary help.
Come on Count, that's not what this law is about and you know it. Stop trying to muddy the waters when child abuse is on the line. It's disgusting and insulting.
You mean the unnecessary abuse. People like you need to grow up and enter the 21st century rather than hiding in the bronze age...
Agreed, count4eternity. It is something that the gay agenda does not want to consider. I know people that have successfully rejected the gay lifestyle, but the media doesn't want to interview them! It's cruel to take away choice from someone's life. No matter how much changes, there will always be suicides among gay youth because they are inherently unhappy and desperately need help.
Donna, there is zero credible scientific evidence that "ex-gay" therapy works, and indeed it is strongly discouraged because of its abusive practices.
I would like to the overwhelming scientifc evidence that gays are normal. I know a gay man and by his own admission it was because of his mother abusing him..
Gladly.
Not everyone who is gay was sexually abused. Trust me.
How is gay-conversion therapy defined, exactly? There are all sorts of degrees of homosexuality - there are some people who are gay, but the childhood dream of a wife with the white picket fence and the 2.5 kids is more important and they don't want to live a gay lifestyle. If a teen sought therapy to help them come to terms with this kind of choice, would that be considered conversion therapy, or should they be forced to live a gay lifestyle if they don't want to?
If the child decides they want the therapy, and it is explained beforehand, I see no problem with it. They should have the choice to do the therapy if they want. It should NOT, however, be forced upon them by their parents. IF they dont want to change, it wouldnt help anyway. Teenagers are irrisponsible, but not idiots....they have the ability to decide for themselves about something like this, and should be able to.
Donna why do morons like you always assume others who aren't like you are "inherently unhappy" when you go out of your way to harass them into being unhappy? Please do be unhappy about this law and let it drive you to suicide....
This is just wrong. Homosexuality is against nature and parents and religions should be allowed to teach that. I admit that I am not familiar with specific tactics used for conversion therapy and perhaps some approaches used are abusive and therefore should be regulated but based on this article it seems that the bill is aimed to stop people from teaching that homosexuality is wrong not to stop people from abusing their children to try and change their behavior.
Gay activists will try to paint Christians as intolerant of other lifestyles. But are we the only intolerant ones? My core belief system is being targeted by liberals trying to force their views of the world on a whole state -a view in which homosexuality is a viable life-choice. I do not believe that it is natural or right. Whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant. I should have the right to believe that and to act on those beliefs.
Having said that I can concede that it is possible for some parents to go to far this is why specific tactics should be called into question -not the end motive.
Please don't tell me that homosexuality is just "the way they are" even if genetics do play a part in it, genetics are not the end all be all. There are plenty of genetic disorders out there that no one has a problem with curing. For instance genetics are responsible for the 13 miscarriages that my mom has gone through. Believe me if anyone tried to cure her of that she would not be offended. You can't just scream "It's genetics!" and think that it makes everything you do okay.
Here you go, one of the first such subjects. In fact he was the poster child for the therapy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A-irAT0viF0
The Ordained Southern Baptist preacher that was the psychologist responsible for developing this therapy was George Rekers, founding member of the Family Research Council. Also a board member of NARTH which he had to resign from when he was found with a male Prostitute.
No response, Redd?
JMC if homosexuality was "unnatural" people wouldn't be born Gay and animals wouldn't have Gay sex. The only unnatural part of being Gay is being a homophobic desperately trying to claim he is straight like you do....
Two completely different terms used negate your statement.
Natural means "occurring in nature outside human influence".
Normal means "a subjective commonality" (key word subjective).
And the law is that you can't force anyone to take treatments that have not been proven to do anything but severely harm the participants. Those who do must acknowledge that there is ZERO scientific backing to them.
Well Tex is being born with no heart, being bi-polar, and retarded normal? How about marrying your cousin? Because from the way you act you are guilty on all counts.....
Feel free to demonstrate their "incorrectness" through a dictionary source then.