If I were Panetta, I'd be a lot more concerned about a pilot with hypoxia over Las Vegas than over Alaska.

The more complex the machine the bigger the challenge to get it right...the Apollo 1 fire didn't stop us from getting to the moon...the 1986 Challenger and the 2003 Columbia disasters didn't keep us from returning to space...we'll figure this out.

Just ask the liberals for the same amount of time to work on this as they have had to work on our educational system problems!

each F-22 cost taxpayers $412 million,

HA HA..."The Taxpayers" most likely spend twice that much on cheetos, soda pop and candy via 'foodstamps' every week....

The fighter is a bargain. Just work out the problems

Why would anyone waste billions of taxpayers' dollars on these still useless fighter jets? Whee is accountability?

Yeah Ken ...Funny. Repubtards are looking for ways to cut education all the time. I suppose keep them stupid and they are easier to con. Goes back to the thought of, why can the defense dept get trillions for for anything they want but schools need to hold bake sales to get books?

Libtard.

Ha...one word responses only serve to prove my point.

You call us, "Libtard"?

Liberals thinkers founded our nation. Liberal thinkers that inspired our nation to go to the moon and venture humans out into exploring space. It was liberal thinkers and non-conservative doers that inspired and founded much of our technologies and built our country's infrastructure that make our nation both civilized, connected, and among the greatest in Earth's human history.

Anti-science conservatives cut our aerospace programs and our educational budgets, saying it is much more economically important to make the rich, richer, and for the rest of us to NOT go anywhere, but to serve them and their interests, and become converts into their narrow-minded, fundamentalist religion.

If neo-cons had their way, we wouldn't fix the problems but sacrifice more pilots and thousands of lives of our voluntary-service military personnel, to ultimately make greater profits for the right-wing's defense manufacturers and oil companies, looking for another trillion-dollar war to plunge our nation into, while blaming all non-conservatives for the economic problems, social problems and unrest that the regressive right-wing creates.

We 'libtards' will inherit this nation, while you regressive-right-wingers will have your place in the history books as the ones who didn't want any one of us to go forward to improve our lives.

Oxygen deprivation?? Meh. Just tell the pilots to open up the front of the window just a crack. Breathe slow even breaths. Problem solved.

*** NO NO... WAIT *****

I can't believe the Defense contractor who was responsible for overseeing the building the F-22's let this Oxygen System problem go unresolved. THEY HAD TO HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THE PROBLEM DURING THE TEST PHASE. I guess the lowest bidder is not the best company to trust. Or, maybe, JUST MAYBE... this Oxygen System was the part that was contracted out to China.

You would think at $143 MILLION for one..they would get all the kinks/bugs figured out already before they placed them in real active duty. Great watchdogs the DOD has!

This is not a test run complaint as should have been..but real fighter pilots complaining there is indeed something wrong with them!

I agree. It wasn't until two pilots went public on 60 Minutes that Panetta has taken an interest. Those two pilots are no longer flying the Raptors and have been "reassigned" as a result.

@ rradiko

A little over the deep end and caricatured, but not false.

I think that the GOP is going to reach an impasse sometime in the coming decade if things keep trending the way they are.

The social conservatives are on the wrong end of history. They are going to be the disappointed and quietly bigoted crowd that hates to be outed as racist and backwards just like their grandparents from the civil rights movements.

The neo conservatives are just parasites looking for a host. They cling to the social conservatives because they're the only mass of people too blind and willfully ignorant to realize that they are being led by the nose for the benefit of a few wealthy industrialists looking to make off with billions from the public coffers.

I figure one of two things happening in the near future. Either the Neocons will inadvertently run the GOP aground as people with at least 2 firing brain cells see that the GOP hasn't had a new idea for sound-fiscal-policy since Reagan's failed trickle-down economics, or the Sociocons will continue to utilize their influence in grooming candidates that ensure that all will be completely repulsive in the general election.

As long as the GOP continues to demonize moderates, placate to racists, bigots, and zealots for easy votes, and not bother to deal with any realistic way of improving the country, let alone running it...they are headed inexorably towards oblivion like the Whigs before them.

At the very least, 2012 is going to look at lot like the 2004 elections did for the Democrats. Their candidate is DOA

Oxygenation or oxygen levels in the blood can be real time montored using a simple clip on sensor to a finger. Done is hospitals all the time.

The AF needs to sensor up F-22 ilots and record the actions of the oxygen generating system and any attitude, altitude, g force, manuevers the Acft is in relative ot Oxygen in a pilots blood. Correlate that data and determine when and why the system is failing and fix it....

Come one people... This can be fixed with enough heat...

Justoneguy - It's not a bargain if it doesn't work.

But I bet it looks very impressive sitting in the hangar.

This problem is too complicated to fix? First of all, full payment shouldn't have been made till everything works. Second, demand that Lockheed Martin fix the problem immediately or they won't get one more government contract....ever. And, there won't be one dime extra given to them to fix that problem. Guaranteed the problem is fixed. I'm sure the Air Force was paying for a working fighter jet. It's up to Lockheed to deliver it.

The Air Force will probably replace the F-22 with the F-35. The F-35 doesn't have all the gadgets the F-22 has, but the F-35 is a lot cheaper.

Of course the liberals are retarded when it comes to public education. The solutions are being handed to the government on a silver platter by schools such as Urban Prep Academy of Illinois that sends 100% of the graduation class of black male students to accredited 4 year universities every year.

Obama has refused to send a commission to the 20 or so such schools that know how to educate, copy their systems and use the systems in the public schools. The Liberals and Obummer have been in control of congress and the white house for 3 1/2 years and refuse to make studies of these successful private and charter schools and find out how to adopt their systems to the public school system.

Yes liberals are libtards when it comes to education. As the president refuses to name a committee to study these successes, report back to him and implement these approaches, then the liberals have to be known as retards and be ashamed at their refusal to improve the public school system.

I just verified that Urban Prep Charter Academy has again sent every graduating senior to an accredited 4 year university for THE THIRD STRAIGHT YEAR! Why can this school take black students from the ghettos of Chicago, teach them and have them accepted by 4 year universities and OBUMMER ignore this and refuse to send a gold ribbon panel to study the more than 20 high schools in the country that manage to send all their graduating seniors to accredited 4 year universities in the United States?

Is the Urban Prep Charter Academy unionizied?

Defense contractors are thieves. How many hundreds of billions and they can't keep these planes flying?

And I'm tired of their bribing Congressman and treating the defense budget as a jobs program. Social spending creates twice as many jobs as defense spending.

dictionary - they probably did it just like KIP Academy out of Texas did it - excellent program - strict discipline, parents are required to take responsibility and follow up, lots of homework, long hours at school during week and 1 Saturday a month, a parent's "university" to help educate parents on parenting,dedicated staff .......and then they put the system into the public schools - and had to modify it,still works,but not as good,last year they weakened the discipline and parent's taking responsibility for their child's behavior because the parents complained...

I don't care what system you want to introduce into the public school system - until parents and students start accepting responsibility and doing the work required -you'll end up right back where you started. (and that has nothing to do with race or where the students come from)

You missed the point entirely. Obummer has over 20 school systems that work and he has done NOTHING to study and find out why they are succeeding and applying those rules for success to public education. Urban Prep Charter Academy is from his old llliniois State Disrict where he was state senatror and the now successful 100% black boys who were failing in the public education system are going to universities. Obummer never sent a commission to find out why the educators found the secret of education and couldn't care less!

@ dictionary72

Analyze the cost structure and student/teacher ratios that these specialized schools operate in.

Now take a look at the Ryan plan that the GOP has been trying to push and explain to me how we can fund such a venture on a shoestring budget, on a national level no less?!

It's all about scalability, and regardless of your opinions about Obama, no politician is willing to pay the kinds of bucks, nor require the kinds of provisions necessary to make such a setup work on a national level...and Obama is the spendthrift compared to many of the Republicans who would rather dissolve the public institution (almost) entirely.

And dictionary - you ignored my point. Until parents assume responsibility for parenting and students assume responsibility for their conduct and studies - it does not matter what system you introduce to the public school system

There is no magic pill. There is no secret - it's basic and works in any system. It's called personal responsibility.

Replace the teachers,replace the curriculum but, until you achieve student and parental accountability - it's all for naught..

They said the same thing about the F-15 being too expensive...Then with all the upgrades, the various variants, sure- add the R&D and you will be paying about $300Million for an F-15 as well...And the F-15 didn't see combat until Operation DESERT STORM. Oh BTW: The F-15 was designed in 1967, didn't fly until 1972, was entered into the USAF inventory in 1976, and finally saw action in 1991...We won't go toe-to-toe with the Russians or the Chinese (hopefully) but we will fight their weapons, to include their fighters (Su-27, J-20), in other third-world $hitholes...

I've never seen a number that large for the F-15 so I'm calling BS. Source it.

Also if our super plane is going to be fighting in the third world, why have we only deployed them to cover D.C. (showboat), the Bering Strait and Japan?

The F-22 program is nothing but posturing, and it's too damned expensive for that and barely reliable.

Oh and the F-15 was designed to actually fight a real enemy. The bomber threat was very real when we fielded it.

How about if we don't go toe to toe with anyone? Our military currently dwarfs any other in the world. Do you think the Chinese sit up at night and think, "Let's go out and spend $1,000,000,000,000 so our air force can go toe to toe with the US?? No, they have 1 aircraft carrier they bought used from the Russians. Only in America do we lie in bed awake, afraid that another nation will decide to provoke us even though our annual military budget is 8 times larger than that of anyone else.

[0.0]

F-15 didn't see combat until Operation DESERT STORM

We used them in the Kosovo war. The Israelis got their 1st kill with the f-15 in 74 or 75.

was entered into the USAF inventory in 1976

The 1st operational f-15 was delivered in 74, at Luke AFB,AZ.

You need to get your facts straight.

I think doofus added another zero to the F-15 price tag. I'm seeing "30 million per unit" everywhere I've looked.

Yeah so one F-22 is almost the same cost of fourteen F-15s. Fail

jsaff

I'm sure it cost more then $30 million. When I worked on them. They told us that the cost was between $45 to $60 million. The price was low because we ordered a lot more f15's then we ordered f22's. The development cost was spread out over the fleet. Plus several other countries bought them too. The f16's cost about #30 million apiece.

Did you guys adjust the inflation price to F15?

Plus the F-15 is 40 years old..getting out of date by today's tech standards. Not counting the hours that existing ones have. I see a lot of top engineers on here, Pigotry, that say the F-22 is useless and a failure, nice to see such brilliant aeronautical engineers on the vine in stead of working for Lockheed. You might check on the Chinese air force and their aircraft, I am sure they are just piper cubs in disguise.

The F22 has a lot of bugs to iron out like the V22 has had. But as odd as it sounds, we need this craft, at the very least as a deterrent against the other established players (namely China and Russia) that are both developing their own stealth technologies but also trying to sell their wares on the open market.

Aside from that, the US fighter fleet is aging, we aren't building the F15's, 16's, 18's anymore. We're maintaining the ones that we have...and they are approaching the upper end of their operating lifespans.

Beyond just wear and tear, the older models lack important new features which top brass (with a better view of the field) deem as important. Things like super-cruise, next-gen stealth, resistance to EMP and chemical agents, jamming, new avionics and enhanced reality, etc. Some things the old birds just cannot do...or can only replicate somewhat well (see F15SE).

Considering the only major problem with the F22 is this O2 issue, that's quite solvable compared to the nightmare that was the Harrier pre-AV8B which needed serious re-working.

JSaff and 0.0

You're BOTH Correct. JSaff is correct with his statement that the only number he can find is $30 Million Per F-15 in most articles, specs, on the internet.

And 0.0 Is also Correct, or at least fairly accurate with the statement

Then with all the upgrades, the various variants, sure- add the R&D and you will be paying about $300Million for an F-15 as well.

The purchasing power of the Dollar has changed. What took $30,000,000 to purchase in 1968, would take $199,500,000 in TODAYS DOLLARS or 6.65 times the 1968 dollar. Source: US treasury.gov

Thank you, DevlsAdvacut-

I was trying to draw the same parallels that the F-15 went through over the years and the F-22 is experiencing this as well. Granted, the F-15 didn't have an oxygen generator issue, but as with everything, these things cost money...When you roll up all the variants and R&D $$$ put into the F-15 is how I surmised that the cost per airframe would be much higher than the actual production costs...

And the latest F-15E is MUCH MORE expensive than $30million per copy...

flnobody-
Operation DESERT STORM: 1991...
Operation NOBLE ANVIL(Kosovo): 1999
Your accounts for historic dates SUCK.
Kosovo came AFTER Operation Desert Storm... YOU FAIL.

But I was talking about U.S. operations, NOT Israeli...But okay:

From Wikipedia:

Introduction and early service

The largest operator of the F-15 is the United States Air Force. The first Eagle (F-15B) was delivered 13 November 1974.^[37] In January 1976, the first Eagle destined for a combat squadron, the 555th TFS, was delivered.^[37] These initial aircraft carried the Hughes Aircraft (now Raytheon) APG-63 radar.

The first F-15 kill was scored by IAF ace Moshe Melnik in 1979.^[38] In 1979–81, during Israeli raids against Palestinian factions based in Lebanon, F-15As downed 13 Syrian MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and two Syrian MiG-25 "Foxbats", the latter being the aircraft the F-15 was designed to kill. Israeli F-15As and Bs participated as escorts in Operation Opera and served during the 1982 Lebanon War. During the latter, Israeli F-15s shot down 40 Syrian jet fighters (23 MiG-21 "Fishbeds" and 17 MiG-23 "Floggers") and one Syrian SA.342L Gazelle helicopter.^[39] Later during 1985, IAF Eagles, in Operation Wooden Leg, bombed the PLO headquarters in Tunisia.^[40] This was one of the few times air superiority F-15s (A/B/C/D models) were used in tactical strike missions.

Royal Saudi Air Force F-15C pilots shot down two F-4E Phantom IIs flown by the Iranian Air Force in a skirmish in June 1984, and shot down two Iraqi Mirage F1s during the Gulf War.^[41][42][43

Simple research done from Wiki, but there are other sources besides Wiki that will corroborate this information...Challenge it with your warped sense of historical accounting and YOU FAIL.

Whatever, dude...

:-/

@JSaff-
You need to catch up on current events, doofus:

F-22 Raptors quietly deployed to Middle East

By Hugh Lessig hlessig@dailypress.com

7:21 p.m. EDT, April 29, 2012

The Air Force has quietly sent F-22 Raptors to the Middle East, and the move has caught the attention of Iranian officials.

Over the weekend, several media outlets cited a report in Aviation Week that Raptors are now based at Al Dafra Air Base in the United Arab Emirates. An Air Force spokesman told ABC News that the deployment was routine and not meant to threaten Iran.

Aviation Week based its report on unamed industry sources, and there was no indication where the Raptors had come from. Besides Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, Raptors are based in Alaska and New Mexico.
In response to those reports, a prominent Iranian lawmaker told Associated Press on Sunday that the move is a plot by the U.S. and Isreal to destabilize the region.

YOU FAIL TOO, DUMBA$$.

:-/

About the F-15E Strike Fighter:
If we were to build any more (like we are recently built for the Koreans) this is how much it would cost and you try doing the math; I am sure it deals with volume-discount pricing but here is an article about the Korean purchase:

Back in 2002, the Republic of Korea Air Force (ROKAF) selected the F-15K advanced derivative of the F-15E Strike Eagle for its Next Generation Fighter Program. Under that $3.6 billion contract, Boeing will deliver 40 aircraft to the ROKAF beginning this year and ending in August 2008.

Source: Defense Industry Daily

That was in 2002...Tack on another decade and tell me what the cost would be then? At least 40 goes into $3.6 Billion pretty close to $90 Million a copy...at 2002 prices...

Get Real, you tools...

:-/

Lastly:

The Air Force reports that each of the aircraft costs $143 million. The U.S. Government Accountability Office, however, estimates that each F-22 cost taxpayers $412 million, if upgrades and research and development expenses are included.

You dumba$$es are using the $412Million pricetag which includes upgrades and R&D funds over the entire span of the program (approx 20years) to gauge against your $30Million PRODUCTION COST for an F-15 that we stopped producing...
Put the PRODUCTION COST for an F-15 at $30Million dollars up against the $143Million PRODUCTION COST for an F-22 at today's dollars and I suspect they are pretty much on parity...

If it is indeed still more expensive, you can deduct the stealth coating, the internal weapons stores, the AESA radar, the datalinks, the supercruise capability, and oh I don't know, the vectored thrust capability from the F-22 and I suspect the costs for a stripped F-22 will be about the cost of a new F-15 at TODAY'S PRODUCTION COST...

You id!ots are comparing apples to oranges...

But you ARE right: They still need to correct the oxygen generation system...Who in the audience knows a thing or two about a thing or two about the historical problems the F-15 had when they first opened it out of the box and had to get corrected? I will give you an easy one: hydraulic lines, boys and girls? I will give you a moment to research...

Whatever, dude...
:-/

Whats your safety worth John? Would you like for America to have done nothing and have the fight on our soil? How would you like to live in fear everyday from a terrorist attack because we refused to do anything for the sake of saving money? Our security and peace of mind is priceless, something which most Americans take for granted every day. Could have been a lot different...

How about TWO BILLION per copy of the B-2 Spirit bomber? On top of that the AF have funding to reasearch a new bomber. The F-15 remains an excellent aircraft and new versions continue being built (latest F-15 Silent Eagle <stealthier>) as well as New F-16's and the F/A-18 E&F Super Hornets. Then of course there's the F-35. It should be noted that the F-22 IS NOT designed for air-to-ground simply air superiority (although experiments have taken place where JDAM's have been dropped from F-22's). If the F-22 were simply to "go away" it wouldn't be missed. PS The Russian PAK-FA (T-50) even though two prototypes are flying and the Chinese J-20 are YEARS away from operational status and the likelihood is they could end up being abandoned due to technical issues and cost.

Car56, how exactly does an F-22 combat terrorism? It's main role is air to air superiority. Are the terrorists flying Migs and Sukhois now?

"Would you like for America to have done nothing and have the fight on our soil?"

What fight, car56? Do you honestly believe that F-22's are being used to fight terrorists? Typical right winger - don't want big government, don't want the Feds to be spending so much. But it's okay to spend a $703B on defense. Spend it on any thing that purports to be "defense"...

Drones? Give me a biplane and a shotgun and I will take down a drone.

car56,

I feel safe knowing that I have sufficient .45 for my M1911, sufficient .30-cal for my M1A and sufficient 12-ga for my Mossberg .... about $800. Much less than you need to spend in order to feel safe, apparently.

I'm more worried about the F-35, what a cluster***k.

It's a turkey.

$1.51 trillion and counting.

Same oxygen system as the F-22

$400 million per plane and the O2 system doesn't work. No problem! Just roll down the window!

Try fighting a modern air war with cheap biplanes and roll-down windows, and you'll get what you deserve.

Try fighting a war with outrageously expensive aircraft and you get what your deserve.

Try fighting a modern air war...

When's the last time we fought an air war? Saddam? It was completely one sided and we didn't need the F-22. Wasteful tax money.

RTyp0

....Wasteful tax money.....

Lemme guess...you need that to pay your rent instead?

Car56- Sounds like you already live in fear everyday. Our military spending is totally out of control. You want to talk about low hanging fruit for budget cuts, look no further. We are 17th in math and 25th in science on worldwide standardized testing and yet we spend more than the next 20 nations combined.

You want to be scared, be scared about having a generation of poorly equipped Americans to pay into the entitlements that are underfunded and most elderly are solely reliant on.

@ car56

FYI taking out OBL could have cost us A LOT less, But like most things in Bush Jr.'s lifetime, if it wasn't handed to him on a silver platter, or diced into a fine powder over a mirror, he wasn't going to have any part of it.

Anyway, regarding the F22, poor analogy. It's got virtually no role in the war on terror (unless we plan on turning Pakistan into a moonscape). The F22's sole purpose is to scare the Chinese and Russians. The US has had to make sure that we can shoot down their aircraft at least 90% of the time because these two nations see no problem in developing fantastic new weapons to export to every despot and psychotic regime with a modicum of wealth or the requisite oil/mineral reserves.

Considering that the US is increasing its military presence in the Pacific Rim, my bets are on the focus being the Chinese first and foremost.

Maybe Putin will sign a non-agression pact with China like Joe Stalin did with Hitler...they always seem to be on the wrong side of history.

Ooooh! 'Cause now that the Russkies know that our defenses are down, they're gonna spring their surprise attack!! Riiiight.

This has been a problem for a long time. Aviation Week had it at least a year ago that they were looking into it. What's strange is that they can't figure it out, or reproduce it when they need to.

MikeyMike doesn't get it...

I weep for you, Sir...

:-/

No, you can't ask for money back because it was spent and at best you can only 're-spend' 2-year money within those 2 years...But I believe the defense contractor that built these platforms should be held accountable for the requirements that were established to ensure that the plane functions as the requirements stated. However, if the Contracting Officer and the Contracting Officer's Technical Representative signed off on it stating that the work accomplished met the needs and stated requirements as presented, then shame on the government for pencil-whipping the paperwork in an attempt to make themselves look good in front of their bosses, rather than verifying and validating the work accomplished met or exceeded what the requirement was.

A lot of things happen in FRP. Same thing when you buy a new car. Not everything works. There are manufacturers defects. However, this one is a lu-lu. And, you are right, you can't get the money back but they could have had a penalty section in the contract concerning performance that if the A/C did not perform as specified, the contractor would be penalized xx number of dollars. Same thing if he didn't deliver on schedule. And the contracting officer does not approve the aircraft for delivery. The FRP approval is done by the Service Acquisition Exec along with a host of others, like the Chief of Staff, and usually, from logistics, Operations, etc. However, in the AF's case, there is a tendency to let the SAE make the decision to the exclusion of others towards the end instead of having the stakeholders in during the entire process. The user is the one that states the requirements and the testers tell you whether the A/C has met those requirements. Contractors have nothing to do with it.

Sure, let the fox guard the chicken coop!

$999.99 fighter jet - you be the pilot :)

"Buy cheap aircraft from China..."

then

"Sure, let the fox guard the chicken coop"

As if we have anything to fear militarily from the Chinese. They are much too busy cleaning our clocks economically to pose any sort of military threat. Maybe dial down the paranoia a notch or two?

MikeyMike doesn't get it...

I weep for you, Sir...

:-/

What is it that I'm not "getting"? Please explain how China presents any sort of military threat to the U.S.

@ MikeyMike

What the Chinese have traditionally lacked in technological prowess they make up for in numbers and a complete lack of concern for casualties. We've fought them twice before, in Korea and again (by proxy) in Vietnam.

The US is building up its presence in the Pacific Rim because as China's economy grows, so do their imperialistic ambitions. They've been staring across the channel at Thailand and the Straits of Taiwan, and the Chinese military seems to have a very large influence in Chinese policies.

I think that under-estimating China would be a very big problem, and worse would be to not be able to stand as the only serious opposition to Chinese ambitions in the region, which too effects China's behavior with its neighbors.

Yes, S.N.R., The People's Republic, or mainland China has been "eyeing" Taiwan, The Republic of China, for quite some time, since 1949 when the capitalist government shifted there with the takeover of the mainland by the communists. Yes, they occasionally do a bit of ceremonial "sword rattling" by excuting some sort of rather pathetic naval exercises in the local waters or as near as they dare sail without posing a genuine threat. This all for show so that certain political leaders can look tough on the Taiwan issue. The more that the mainland government embraces capitalist reforms, the more likely it is that there will eventually be a peaceful resolution to the conflict and a reunification of the two governments, just as there was with Hong Kong.

@ MikeyMike

True, but times are changing. China in 1949 was not as technologically advanced, nor nearly as wealthy as they are today. Just as importantly, their military capabilities are far better as well. I don't think that we should take a soft stance on China's sabre rattling, nor be prepared to hand Taiwan over like the Brits did Czechoslovakia so many decades ago.

Crazy people and unstable regimes rattle their sabres...when that regime has a million man army and nukes, s*** can get very real.

In today's conflicts sure...

But it behooves us to prepare for the possible threats of tomorrow, because that's where they'll be.

Imagine how 73rd Eastings would have turned out if we didn't have the M1A1 and put Vietnam-era MBT's up against Saddam's T-72's?

Imagine how Iraq I would have played out if we didn't spend the countless billions on the F117 and B2 programs? How about their respective cost-per-plane?

Would the OBL raid have occurred if we didn't have stealth BlackHawks and advanced jammers?

F15's and F/A18's are awesome...after you've established complete command of the air.

Those planes are titanium and aluminum coffins if you don't first utilize a boatload of anti-radiation and cruise missiles and surgical strikes with stealth aircraft to blind the enemy first.

What happens if we ever have to go up against an opponent that can handily shoot down cruise missiles and drones and has a large enough navy and or coastal defenses that could keep a carrier from conveniently mooring a few hundred miles offshore?

What happens if we ever have to go up against an opponent that can handily shoot down cruise missiles and drones and has a large enough navy and or coastal defenses that could keep a carrier from conveniently mooring a few hundred miles offshore?

In today's world, just exactly who would that be?

The Chinese, or more likely vicariously with a foe that buys their hardware from them

The actual technology is almost as bizarre. According to the story on CBS last week, the oxygen the pilots breath is extracted from some of the air compressed in the intake stages of the engines. How many millions of dollars extra do you think that costs, compared to the little green oxygen tank you see strapped on to a senior citizen's electric cart?

That's actually kind of funny imagery, now that you mention it. Thankfully, F-22s don't have turn signals that can be left on.

@SanDiegoNative - Puny human. I will smite your planet as soon as I finish reading the evening news.

-- Morbo the Annihilator

Not enough air? Just roll down the window. ;)

Compressed air from the engines is nothing new nitwits. Civilian aircraft with pressurized cabins use compressed air from turbochargers on reciprocating engines. At high altitudes O2 must still be used in conjunction with the compressed air from the turbines. Amazing how keyboard warriors know so much about high tech aircraft.

Actually, the air isn't just pressurised from the turbines, it is also a closed system to enable it to fly through NBC environments (Nuclear/Biological/Chemical, not the news...)

This is where they think some of the issues arise. It is sealing off, but failing to keep reproducing oxygen.

As a side, (not sure if this was by design or as a short term fix...) they actually do have a "green" oxygen tank in the aircraft. Current checklists require that if the pilot is experiencing a loss of oxygen event (LOE) for them to operate the switches to open the valve on the oxygen bottle to provide them with a short term supply. I believe it is tops of 20 minutes. Meant to enable them to get down.

This is why the one Raptor that crashed was deemed pilot error.

His Raptor stopped producing oxygen and he started suffering from hypoxia. He dived to try and lower the altitude and get to more oxygen rich air. Once hypoxia set in worse, he became disorientated as he was trying to reach for the switch over and rolled into an inverted dive. Became one with nature....

Even though the Raptor O2 issue is what initiated the problem, it was chalked up as pilot error because he didn't get the O2 "spare" tank open.

Just do a search of F-22 cause of crash. Doesn't seem to want to let me include hyperlinks...

The news is that the first grounding and attempted fix of the same problem was unsuccessful, so a second grounding is necessary.

JRTN, that person in the Air Force with a star on his shoulder is looking forward to retiring and going to work for the people that built these planes. He's not going to make any waves, he's got his future to consider.

Although, this is one scary POS.

Wouldn't want to be in its sites.

rob, did you mean: "I wouldn't want to be in its sights"?

Sadly, it does have a backup oxygen system already. The problem with it I've read about is a pilot suffering hypoxia can not reach it in the location it was installed in. Too far down on the seat for an impaired pilot to find.

So not only did the design team screw up the main oxygen system they also screwed up the backup.

One of my nephews is an F22 pilot. I would prefer he stay on the ground until his plane isn't trying to kill him.

Well, It's what we do. Might as well just tell your nephew to stay on the ground period. Anytime your up in the air it doesn't matter what aircraft you are in, the laws of physics and gravity are always trying to kill you. Just sayin'

You do realise that Lockheed Martin is also building the F-35. $1.51 Trillion for 2443 planes, up from $1.39 Trillion from the year before. That's $618 million each.

The F-22 money is spent, there's still time to to cancel the F-35.

Cancel it all. This crap is just corporate welfare for the military-industrial complex to insure there are jobs in certain powerful senators' districts.

"Oh yes... we need every one to fight an imaginary foe. "

I thought it would be wise to have something and not need it, rather than needing it and not have it. This kind of attitude that other nations are inferior has led to the downfall of past nations.

"Our old stuff is better than anything else the world has or will have for many years to come. "

I agree, but continuing R&D is a good thing too. I, for one, do not want to find out the enemy has closed in the technology gap or even surpassed us.

I agree, however, that this program is expensive and might not be worth the cost. Keep in mind that Congress was the government body that approved this program. Therefore, both Republicans and Democrats are to blame. Don't let partisan affiliation blind you. Immature really.

We spend half of our national budget on defense and that's as much as the next ten countries in the world COMBINED. I think we can be confident that we have superior firepower to anything out there, anywhere, anytime.

"I think it would be wise to have something and not need it..."

Yeah, like maybe a balanced budget with some extra cash in the bank, rather than the unending deficit program we're currently on?

jordan I suppose you know all the specs of the chinese top of line aircraft and the older F-15 is far superior? Given it's age and technology, things do get obsolete and can only be updated to a certain point. There comes a time when you reach the point of diminishing return just as many many civilian aircraft do especially when using it for military and it must perform to it's best when it is needed, it can't just be grounded and use the some antique to replace it...it is already the antique.

If the purchase of these planes was handled like the Osprey V-22 most of the blame should be on congress.

Now you made me google the osprey

Osprey (definition): An overly expensive and dangerously wobbling flying bird which defies the laws of nature and should not have the ability to fly.

Now you made me google the osprey

Just speedreading through some of these posts. This sounds disturbing until you put it in context.

Independent:

YOU WROTE: "Can we just for once learn something and maybe think before we sign and OK another contract with any of our defense contract companies?"

MY RESPONSE: Maybe the people in charge are just following Nancy Pelosi's sage advice: "We've got to sign and approve the contracts in order to find out what's in them." That system works for complicated and expensive legislative programs, so why not with expensive defense contracts? (sarcasm)

Ah me. You have obviously, never done business with the government.

My father was a residential engineer for a contractor who "designed" telephone systems for the Rural Telephone Authority (RTA) back in the fifties. The government required that they use an obsolete "spec" book that it had purchased from Bell. Bell had abandoned the "spec" book over twenty years before they sold it to the government. They had abandoned it because it didn't work.

To make a long story shorter, my father struggled with every one from his own company to the federal inspector so that he could do the job right, to no avail. They built it knowing that half of it was going to rebuilt by the local co-op at about double the original cost.

@Rhonda

What does Nancy Pelosi have to do with my point? I have no admiration for the woman. How in the world did you come to that conclusion? - LOL And why put sarcasm in parentheses as to somehow mock my point? ...unless, you're one of the ones I was referring too! Next time, try and use a better reference or at least use something I wrote when you want to try and be a D!@%!

Either you're trolling these parts or your foot needs to go in your mouth, either way please try and lighten up on the assumptions.

Independent:

YOU ASKED: "What does Nancy Pelosi have to do with my point? I have no admiration for the woman. How in the world did you come to that conclusion? - LOL And why put sarcasm in parentheses as to somehow mock my point?"

MY RESPONSE: Wow! YOU sure do make a lot of wild assumptions. I never suggested that YOU admired Nancy Pelosi (YOU did), and I never mocked YOUR point. Instead, I mocked the reckless way our government (and Nancy Pelosi is an important part of our government) handles defense contracts, important legislation, and just about every other legality requiring government input. And since Nancy Pelosi was our esteemed Speaker of the House, you'd think she'd be setting a stellar example for the proper oversight of complex and expensive dealings.

So, my sarcasm was meant as follows: If someone in government with the status of Nancy Pelosi can say "we have to sign the bill (Obamacare) to find out what's in it," then I'm suggesting sarcastically that maybe someone else in government at a lower level took her cue and recklessly decided to "sign and approve a complex and expensive defense contract (F-22 fighter) to find out what's in it." (i.e. without knowing what's in it) And maybe that's why the F-22 fighter contract has become a horrendous mess.

Finally, why are YOU so insecure and hypersensitive, as evidenced by YOUR entire comment? My comment wasn't all about YOU. Maybe YOU need to get a life.

Just how does getting to the moon or flying the space shuttle have to do with a problem on the F-22?

Aeronautical engineering, Gumps. Maybe you've heard of it?

HUMANS ON THE MOON. BWAAHAHAHAHAH. It never happened.

because a government agency not motivated by profit, but adventure (NASA) engineered and designed it the space shuttle and moon trips.

Do you realize just how many bugs were in the hardware and software on the Apollo missions before they ever left the launch pad? Literally thousands, it happens in that biz.

The (probably) last of manned air fighters. O2 will be passe.

(always been a fan of the F 22 Raptor)

The (probably) last of manned air fighters. O2 will be passe.

(always been a fan of the F 22 Raptor)

The Rapture.

pointing one at North Korea would require putting one in orbit with its power source probably a nuclear reactor. You really think that would be less expensive?

Probably leaked to make the other guy complacent

You are correct, GD built that aircraft and it was a spendid aircraft. LTV built the A7A,D, E and so on during that time, it was a warhorse in Nam but now has been retired. But it also had it's problems during design and testing in Grand Prairie, several were lost due to design flaws at Edward AFB. But eventually there were nearly 300 built and some still fly in foreign countries. ALL aircraft have difficulty in the begining and all become obsolete.

I want one of those $143 aircraft you are speaking of.

Oxygen deprivation is less important the closer to Orange County you get. Thats why they closed March AFB some years ago.

Mr. MccartyIvan -

This looks a lot like a commerical. It doesn't belong here.