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Subscribe to RSSDefense Secretary Leon Panetta has ordered all F-22 flights to remain near an airfield in case the pilot suffers from oxygen deprivation due to the aircraft's oxygen system. NBC's Brian Williams reports.
Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has ordered the Air Force to restrict flights of its new F-22 stealth fighters because of continuing problems with the aircraft's oxygen system.
At least 22 pilots have suffered from oxygen deprivation while in flight since April 2008.
Panetta on Tuesday ordered that all F-22 flights remain within a "proximate distance" of an airfield in case a pilot should suffer from a hypoxia event and be forced to land. That will force an immediate end to F-22 patrol missions over Alaska.
Panetta also ordered the Air Force to accelerate installment of a backup oxygen system in all F-22s and provide monthly progress reports on efforts to identify the problem with the current oxygen system. The Air Force does not expect to begin installing automatic backup oxygen systems until December of this year.
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Handout / U.S. Air Force via Reuters file
A F-22 Raptor fighter jet flies in a training mission during Red Flag 12-3 over the Nevada Test and Training Range.
The Air Force has been unable to determine the cause of the 12 incidents of hypoxia suffered by pilots of the F-22. Pilots have reported wooziness while flying the supersonic jet, considered the most advanced fighter plane in the world.
Some of the military’s top aviators have refused to fly the radar-evading planes because of the oxygen system problems.
The supersonic plane has also been criticized in the past for its high-maintenance costs.
The Air Force reports that each of the aircraft costs $143 million. The U.S. Government Accountability Office, however, estimates that each F-22 cost taxpayers $412 million, if upgrades and research and development expenses are included.
Jim Miklaszewski is the chief Pentagon correspondent for NBC News. Courtney Kube, NBC's Pentagon producer, and msnbc.com reporter Jeff Black contributed to this report.
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Maintenance workers on the ground have also reported being woozy after working in the cockpit. This isn't an oxygen system problem. It is a toxic out-gassing problem with the composite panels and their glues used to construct the radar evading jet.
Mr. Reporter -
Please explain this discrepancy. 12 or 22?
(A) "At least 22 pilots have suffered from oxygen deprivation while in flight since April 2008."
(B) "The Air Force has been unable to determine the cause of the 12 incidents of hypoxia suffered by pilots of the F-22."
just read another interesting thing about the OBOGS system...5 ground maintenance handlers have suffered hypoxia while working around the F-22...some of the details can be found at Military.com..."Houston we have a problem"..and its not altitude related
Honorable Mister Schmoe -
I just visited "Houston we have a problem" on Military.com. It is a two year old re-hash of an blurb about Apollo-13. Nothing in it was relevant to our threads here.
If you have something about these alleged ground maintenance issues with hypoxia, give us reliable info, or a way to check it out.
Standing By, Sir.
call me
Articles you are talking about. Did not it say they had suffered hypoxia. It said The maintainers grew sick after breathing in ambient air during ground engine runs.
In fact they also say:
@mario69...the houston thing is sarcasm....the actual article is "F-22 ground handlers suffer hypoxia like symptons" and its at military,com/air force insider...the reason is not stated as to why in the article , it is a mystery , like what is happening to the air crew....
Unbelievable comments from uninformed readers. Melvin, duh, they have been monitoring oxygen on the pilots since the problem first surfaced. The fact that you thought specialists in the military hadn't thought of that is simply mind-boggling!
RRadiko, I HOPE you're stoned because you're crazy too! "conservatives are parasites?" (hello FoodStamp-pusher Obummer); "Reagans failed policies?" (FACTUALLy the most successful financial strategy EVER utilized-and Obummer is failing by doing the opposite); "anti-science conservatives?" (Obummer liberals cancelled the Space Program!) You must be one of the stoner Obummer army that pushes his phony propoganda all day long on every website you can find (hello Communist China!) This strategy was developed by his sidekick, Valerie Jarrett, Psychologist, (just keep lying because some may believe you) but we're not that stupid. He should have a sidekick with SOME financial knowledge. We know exactly what he's pushing - bankruptcy on this country - read of his Cloward-Piven theory and you'll understand it!
MS
And your comments top them all. No facts required right, just a bunch of bullsh@t. Typical flux news watcher.
actually @ms noncommunist the strategy of the big lie was devoloped by Joeseph Goebels...a NAZI...not Valerie Jarrett....these modern day libbies have never had an original idea yet , they keep recycling old ones and usually failed ones at that and then taking credit for them as if they were some kind of geniuses...and then you have the folks that fall for this bovine manure like @finobody ,RRadiko who can only resort to lying , name calling , insults and not allowing reasonable debate..........and I'm also tired of the "stoner" comments from assinine Dudley Do-Right conservatives too....I see nothing wrong in enjoying a good smoke every now and again in the privacy of ones home ... POT should be legal...alcohol kills , pot doesn't...the criminal element behind weed does and needs to be removed , remember prohibition and how well that worked out ? , open your eyes and see the paralell..I think its time for a new political party in this country , the common sense party...the whole Dem/Rep emotional party system is failing and dividing us all... the old divide and conquer theory ?
call
What name did i call you? Still no reference hey? I think that tells all it needs to be said about you.
flnobody-
What references do you ever post? You are no better than anyone else that has an opinion and posts it here...You are as bad as JSaff...THAT speaks volumes about you...
[0.0]
I provide reference all the time. Unlike idiots like you. You come to make a comment about something you know nothing about. Half the time you don't even read the article before you post a comment. Just like the one you just posted. Call said I called her/him/it a name. I asked what name. If I did, it would have been very easy to show me where I did. It's not like I asked someone to go research the Internet to find a reference. So you just keep on being an idiot.
lets see you didn't call me a name . but you did call OO an idiot , rest my case...flnobody
Your historical facts for current events (earlier this week about the F-15 where you challenged me about dates of Kosovo and when the F-15 first flew) are as bad as your long term memory...I pulled up the references for the dates for the F-15 but where were your references???
You stink on ice and your credibility is all washed up...
See my default pic? That little girl is you and I am the Gorilla flipping you off.
What a tool...I weep for you.
:-/
flnobody is just upset because someone called him out on having no credibility and being just a nobody that likes to say, "What are your references?" ...He likes to walk into one of these virtual rooms and drop a grenade on someone and walk out like it isn't his business with one of these, "I don't see a reference; I call BS..." but he sure as hell doesn't back up what he says and we are all supposed to cower to the all-knowing nobody...
JSaff is just as bad...Sad individuals they are...
[0.o]
What facts were wrong? State your case. Provide a reference. It's hard to show a reference to your wrong comment isn't it. that why you never do.
Lastly, I just scanned the comments you left for the past two months and you only cited four references and one you cited OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN from the Washington Times...
I am underwhelmed...
:-/
But in the future, I will ensure that if I intend to post something that I deem 'factual' then I will make every endeavor to cite exactly where I got the information from. I will also declare what I post as: FACTUAL, COMICAL, FACETIOUS, SARCASTIC, and OPINION. That way for people like you that feel compelled to challenge everyone with what their references are, you can keep your thoughts to yourself or if you have supporting or contradictory evidence [other than your opinion], you too can follow the same mantra so we all know where you are coming from, and we can have a better assessment of your logic, morals, beliefs other than the notion that you are a complete a$$.
Good day, Sir...I SAID GOOD DAY.
call
I didn't call you a name. Here it is days later. And you still can't tell me what name I called you. I never said I didn't call [0.o] an idiot. Because he is an idiot. I rest my case.
[0.o}
Your comment: was entered into the USAF inventory in 1976
My comment: The 1st operational f-15 was delivered in 74, at Luke AFB,AZ
The first Eagle (F-15B) was delivered 13 November 1974
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle#Introduction_and_early_service
Your comment: F-15 didn't see combat until Operation DESERT STORM
My comment: We used them in the Kosovo war. The Israelis got their 1st kill with the f-15 in 74 or 75.
The first F-15 kill was scored by IAF ace Moshe Melnik in 1979.[38] In 1979–81, during Israeli raids against Palestinian. (Which by the way was 12 years before desert Storm.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle#Introduction_and_early_service
Here are those facts with references. Now who was wrong? I worked on the f15's from 74 to 78. I was at Luke AFB, AZ in 1974 when we received the 1st f15. I even got to shake president fords hand when he came out to except the f-15 into service.
Good day, I SAID GOOD DAY.
[o.0]
PS
I just looked over your last 39 comments you left. Guess how many references you used? 0, that is ZERO! Good job.
nobody:
OPINION: You are quick to redact and only post what you want to post but the rest of the thread is still there.
FACT: I stated USAF, not Israeli or Saudi...But even your dates for the first Israeli kill was off. You implied that the Kosovo operation occurred before Operation DESERT STORM when I stated they (USAF) did not see combat action until DESERT STORM...
SOURCE: Page 1 of this thread...
FACT: 1979 does NOT equal 1974 or 1975...
FACETIOUS SOURCE: My second grade teacher, Ms. Holmes, back at Hampton Roads, Virginia and just about all my other math teachers there afterwards...
FACT: Operation NOBLE ANVIL (The Kosovo Operation) occurred AFTER Operation DESERT STORM
SOURCE: wikipedia.com
Yeah, I know- because I copied it verbatim from wikipedia too and pasted it into my post on page 1 of this thread.
GRAMMATICAL CORRECTION: Hat's off to you for shaking President Ford's hand when he came out to accept the F-15 into service.
nobody:
OPINION: You are very selective in your comments.
FACT: The first Eagle (F-15B) was delivered 13 November 1974.
FACT: In January 1976, the first Eagle destined for a combat squadron, the 555th TFS, was delivered.
SOURCE: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Eagle#introduction_and_early_service
OPINION: So that being said, I guess you were not working at an operational squadron...
ASSESSMENT: So based on what I read, it took roughly two additional years for the F-15 to be considered IOC and ready for combat operations with the 555th TFS.
Rebuttal?
[0.o]
Above is a complete copy of your comment.
Please show me where you said, and the USAF f-15 didn't see combat until Operation Desert Storm.
Nor does it mean 1991. It flew in combat before 79. The kill thing was all I could reference for. And the 74 or 75 was from memory.
I went to Langley AFB,VA in 75. To open it up for f15's. That is a combat operational base.
When I left luke afb in 75, the 555 they still had f15a's and b's. I don't know when they got their 1st f-15c. But it would have taken about 6 months to get a full sqn of them. Then they would had to have trained for while. And then had an ORI and passed it, before they became combat sqn. They were not a combat unit in jan.76. That reference in wikipedia was wrong.
STATEMENT: You are going off of that one sentence, "And the F-15 didn't see combat until Operation DESERT STORM. Oh BTW: The F-15 was designed in 1967, didn't fly until 1972, was entered into the USAF inventory in 1976, and finally saw action in 1991..."
but I did clarify further down the thread, "But I was talking about U.S. operations, NOT Israeli...But okay:"
Again, you are quick to be 'selective' in choosing which parts of the thread to focus on to further support your PoV. I get that about you. I too went through three ORIs and am quite familiar with the process.
You stated previously that you served at Luke AFB in 1974 and that was when the first operational F-15 was used but hey, go ahead and split hairs when you try to discredit someone else when they are citing that the first operational F-15 went to the 555th TFS in 1976...
STATEMENT: I am fully aware of the 1st Fighter Wing's combat capability and the long lineage it has served over the years; I am glad you were able to experience what a combat unit has to offer other than a training unit.
ASSESSMENT: You did admit that you were going off of memory alone [and it wasn't as good as it used to be] and not reference and then at the end you discredit the one reference that you yourself cited. If you have a better reference [other than your memory], I am standing by.
OPINION: Personally, when we are getting to this level of granularity, it becomes extremely petty.
ASSESSMENT: You are the one that started this by directing me to get my facts straight after I contributed to the conversation. I wasn't looking for a fight but between you and JSaff you make yourself puff out your chests, you are the all-knowing, and everyone else is weak and feeble-minded to stand toe-to-toe with the likes of you. I especially abhor when people like you challenge others with the bull$hit of "What is your reference?" Why can't you just contribute without being an as$hole? If you have something to counter with, why not just recount your experiences and what you believe is correct rather than challenge everyone? It's okay to have an opinion and express it, but you don't need to attack or belittle anyone in the process. Doing so will always have someone like me coming right back at you.
For the record, I want to say thank you for your service during the Cold War era. I wasn't looking for this 'battle' but I am not the type to back down from bullies...So thank you, but as F-15 fighter pilots say, "CEASE BUZZER."
[O.o]
Split hairs? It was over a year difference. Plus, an operational sqn does not mean a combat sqn. It could mean an operational weather sqn, training and many other types. Basically it just means the sqn is an active sqn.
I can tell you for a fact. In Nov. 1975, The 555 was a training outfit. I was assigned to that sqn. If you know about ori's. Then you SHOULD know. They can not get one brand new aircraft in Jan. 1976 and be combat ready without having an ORI. If you think that can happen. You have known idea what you are talking about.
I have been a member of many combat sqn.s. My 1st was with the f-111 out of nellis afb, that deployed to south east asia in 72. My last was with the f-16's out of moody afb, deployed to desert storm in 91. Plus several others in the middle.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I ask for a reference from people who make wild statements that I know is a lie. If you noticed. Like "call" he/she/it said I called he/she/it name. I ask he/she/it what name did I call he/she/it. Because I know I didn't. Did he/she/it ever say what I called he/she/it? NO! Because he/she/it lied! As for you. Did I ask you for a reference or did I say you need to get your facts straight. It seem you are the one who started out being an as@hole along with call.
Thank you for confirming what I already knew about you. You won't stop. I will. Those that want to know the truth will look it up for themselves. Keep being the little girl in the pic...I got a life to live.
[o.o]
You can't always believe what you find when you look things up either.
Here you go, With references!
This is to just confirm who was right, wikipedia or I.
555 FIGHTER SQUADRON
F-15, 1974-1991
Transferred without personnel and equipment to Luke AFB, AZ in 1974; redesignated a tactical fighter squadron; manned and equipped for new mission of providing tactical fighter training for US and allied military personnel. Trained US military and selected allied military F-15 pilots, Jul 1974-Mar 1994.
http://www.afhra.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=12031
GODD NIGHT!
Out gassing from interior/exterior sources= $143 million each, and nobody willing to stick their ass in the seats. Nice that we have nice aircraft that do @!$%#.
Lets all pay homage to OUR defence contractors that come up with aircraft that nobody wants to fly, let sit in. A couple thousand for a toilet seat on Air Force One, is nothing compared to this.
Who the hell test flies these at combat speeds? A monkey? Don't answer that, but bet it has been recorded on test flights.
Put 2 pieces of @!$%# together that has never has been done..... and somone in the government will buy it.
If gay marriage had been allowed, this would have never happened. Gays love oxygen systems.
Hmm, you put forward an interesting argument, Toasty.
The pilots who raised this problem are to be commended, as is Panetta for grounding the jets until the oxygen system is fixed. Common sense says it's a "fixable" problem, and it's certainly NOT worth risking pilot lives over.
I see no reason why the system can't be fixed, and the jets can safely be flown again.
Starscream doesn't have this problem.
I wonder if the "off gassing" is the problem. If it is, could they install an O2 generator to counteract the problem?
All of these new airframes have had significant performance issues....the CV-22, the F-22, the F-35 (which may never see light of day at this rate).
Makes you yearn for the good old days when (relatively) cheap F-16s and F15s ruled the skies, and the MH-53 was the flying rotary wing tank of its day.
OPINION: Technically they are of Russian design, but we did purchase a squadron of MiG-29s from a Former Soviet Union country, I believe it was Moldova to prevent Iran from getting them.
I suspect we did FME on one or two of them and the rest most likely went to Nellis or Tonapah for DACM during Exercise RED FLAG...
FACT: We bought from Moldova 21 x MiG-29 FULCRUM
SOURCE: http://www.armscontrol.org/print/267
FME: Foreign Material Exploitation
DACM: Dissimilar Air Combat Maneuvers
I just hope the government is going after Lockheed Martin and demanding they fix the problem for free. Crazy how the government keeps paying contractors for such a problem ridden aircraft. But they probably have enough retired Generals and lobbyists in their payroll to ensure the company profits don't get affected. This is a problem for both parties in D.C. to take care of not just one.
143 Million and we can't keep oxygen flowing to the pilot? Ok, somebody wake me up here. We have been building planes how long with oxygen systems? Have we built a jet here that pilots fly beyond their own physical capabilities? And this was not discovered during initial tests? This all is just not adding up. At 143 million samolians per copy, and actual costs much higher. Maybe we should take a step back here and re-evaluate our intentions?
The subzero temperatures inside the planes sometimes froze oxygen lines, leading to hypoxia for unsuspecting crew members, who quickly died if the problem was not caught.
That happened in 1942 inside the B24s and B17s you'd think after 65+years of aircraft developement designing an adequate oxygen system would be a no-brainer! But then maybe thats how they approached it.
We have been flying fighters and war planes with oxygen for decades.
This somehow sounds wrong. Is there really another underlying story here?
this sucks, i was going to rent one for a vacation, oh well..
I am under the impression Hertz is cheaper than AVIS...I also like that if you are Gold Member you can get GPS for free...
Oxygen is going to cost you extra tho...
:-)
The F 22 has a different type of oxygen system than other planes. B-24, 17 did not have a pressurized cabin.
Yes That's true B-29s were pressurized I don't know if there were problems with that system in the field. What I am trying to bring out is that engineers know what is required and how to build a reliable system for a very long time and this should not have happened!
B-29s were pressurized initially, but I believe they were stripped of all creature comforts when they started doing low level bombing over Japan. This is a manufacturer defect. Manufacturer should pic up the tab.
If it were a drone, it would be kickass. And bonus.....no life support system to worry about!! The days of the fighter pilot are numbered, I think. The technology is out there for an advanced drone, far greater capabilities than the current flock of drones.
I don't think most pilots like flying drones. pilots want to fly, especially fighter pilots.
A recent news story about the pilot killed in the Alaska crash linked to the AF investigation. The oxygen generator systrm failed, his night vision goggles prevented him from seeing the ring that activates the emergency oxygen, his cold weather gear prevented him from reaching the ring which had slipped down alongside the seat. Instead of staying near airfields, the pilots should stay below oxygen levels, which means avoid 9,000 ft. mountains. Or fix the emergency system, and charge designers and builders with malfeasance. Mr. Panetta is partway along the right track, but someone in the USAF may have already jumped on this. Surely Mr. Panetta was entitled to the basic information and is acting on it. I wish it had gotten to him sooner, like partway through the investigation. In the meantime pilots, who are ultimately answerable (meaning they answer with their lives) have refused to fly without dependable oxygen and backup oxygen. And guess what--they're still alive. More power to them.
Right on!! It took a lot of hutzpa for those pilots to go on TV and make those comments. Their careers are over, regardless of what the AF said, but they may have well saved the lives of other F-22 pilots and made the SECDEF take some action. Bad publicity, especially from the pilots, is the best thing to kick the AF in the rear and make them act and this should do it. They do have a serious problem and I am sure they are doing every thing possible to solve it. They have a lot of money invested in this little toy. However, until they do solve it, it is in the best interest of pilots' lives to ground the aircraft--or at least until they can get an alternative breathing system installed. The lives of our pilots are not worth trying to keep the Service from getting bad publicity and spending more money to save their latest, really, really expensive toy. Get it fixed and then ask your pilots to fly it. Pilots lives first, aircraft second.
I saw the two pilots on 60 Minutes who said they would no longer fly the F-22s. They said in some cases the effects lasted after they had returned to the ground. Could the hypoxia cause permanent brain or eye damage? They also said they tried a charcoal filter and the pilots were coughing up black stuff because the filters were shedding charcoal into the breath apparatus. You bet something's wrong.
With an on-going oxygen delivery problem in the F-22s, it would seem more feasible to ground them until all the back-up systems are installed. I find it humorous that SECDEF ordered the AF to pick up the pace of installing a back-up system and the article says the AF isn't going to begin until December. Guess the contracting/acquisition system is as slow as ever. In the meantime our pilots will continue to have to fly the Raptors and risk oxygen deprivation and a possible crash. With a problem as serious as this, it would be prudent to ground them. The F-15 is still, as usual, good enough to pick up the slack. It can patrol Alaska's borders to keep the Russians in check (probably still are) and face any other threat we may need it for. It's still the best. In the meantime, the AF needs to solve the problem in their $420M+ fighter toy so their pilots don't have to resort to the unheard of move of refusing to fly them. An action most people don't blame them for. Breathing helps. I can't think of one single time when an AF pilot flat refused to fly an entire fleet of fighters. All F-22 pilots should be grateful for the two pilots who appeared on TV and told their story of refusing to fly them and their experience of oxygen deprivation. They may have saved some lives in the future. The AF not only got a smack on its backside by the SECDEF when it was ordered to curtail the flights of the F-22 (publicly), it got some big bruises out of it. They put the lives of their pilots in second place and the buy and public reputation of an extremely expensive toy in first place. They should be embarrassed. They are not looking out for their own and that is a big black mark on the Service. When Mothers send their sons to join, they might want to remember this lesson.