E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSAn Oregon pastor, upset with online comments made by former church members, sues four former parishioners, seeking $500,000 for defamation. KGW's Wayne Havrelly reports.
An Oregon mother of seven is being sued for defamation by her former church over critical comments she made online.
Julie Anne Smith, a stay-at-home mom who home-schools her children, said church members began shunning her and her family after they left Beaverton Grace Bible Church almost four years ago.
She took to the Web in October 2009 to air her concerns about the church's practices on Google reviews, but said her comments kept being pushed down by other church members' more recent reviews. So in February of this year, Smith launched a blog called Beaverton Grace Bible Church Survivors to counteract what she called the "cat and mouse game" on Google.
"My primary issue was to discuss spiritual abuse in the church,” Smith told msnbc.com. “In essence, the legal suit is [O'Neal's] attempt of continuing that spiritual abuse.”
But days after Smith launched her blog, pastor Charles O'Neal filed a $500,000 lawsuit against Smith, her daughter and three other former church members, claiming some of the comments posted online amounted to defamation. O'Neal has been the pastor of the church for 13 years.
"We have not gone hastily to court," O'Neal said in a statement released to msnbc.com. "For three and a half years this group has been engaged in a public, church to church, and World Wide Web defamation, showing their willingness to discredit God, harm the church, harm wives, harm children, and harm the testimony of Christ's Gospel."
"It is BGBC's firm conviction that this cannot continue," he added.
In reaction to O'Neal's lawsuit, Smith's attorney filed an anti-SLAPP motion to dismiss the suit. The motion, which is meant to protect individuals sued for exercising their constitutionally protected rights, will go before a judge on May 21.
Defamation lawsuits triggered by online comments are not unusual, but they typically involve businesses, American Civil Liberties Union attorney Aden Fine told msnbc.com.
"It’s very clear, especially in the age of the Internet, that companies don’t like to be criticized and don’t want the world to see this criticism, and so many companies have been very aggressive about suing people for criticizing them," Fine said.
"The result will be that people will be afraid of posting critical comments on the Internet," he said, adding that he expects these kinds of lawsuits to happen more even frequently in the future.
Smith, who used to play piano at the Beaverton church, said she and her family were asked to leave the congregation in November 2008, but it was almost a year before she took her grievances online. Church leaders, however, deny ever asking the Smiths to leave and claim her family left of their own accord.
“When you’re in a cult or a spiritually abusive place, your brain takes a while to process, to uncover all of that stuff that was going on, so I was kinda stewing,” she said. "Things were coming clear to me.”
Shunned?
Smith said the shunning by church members was so extreme that one of them even skidded out of a grocery parking lot to avoid her. "They treat you worse than a stranger," she said. "It just seems so cruel.”
She said her eldest daughter, Hannah, even left home about 4.5 years ago because she no longer wanted anything to do with the church. "My daughter willingly gave up many things to protect her sanity and leave the place that was emotionally killing her," Smith wrote on her blog.
Smith said she tried calling and emailing the church to resolve the conflict, but received no response.
The decision to eventually start posting reviews on Google came “out of desperation.”
"The mama bear in me came out," she said.
According to the complaint filed by the pastor, the defamatory statements included claims that O'Neal had "chosen to mislead the congregation" and "destroy relationships." Other messages quoted in the filing say the pastor is an example of "narcissism in the pulpit," and the church is "creepy" and uses "control tactics" for "spiritual abuse."
"You will be fine at this church if you never question the elders or pastor," the filing quotes another statement as saying.
Other comments Smith reportedly posted online state the church is "very destructive and disturbing."
"Leaders of cults convince their people that their church is the only true place to be..." and "turn a blind eye to known sex offenders in the church," Smith reportedly posted on Jan. 4.
O'Neal's attorney told msnbc.com in an email that the latter claim is "the second worst thing that any pastor can be accused of."
Court documents revealed the sex offender claim refers to a mentally disabled teenage church member who allegedly touched one of his sisters inappropriately. His family brought the matter up with the pastor, who said the boy "was never again allowed in the church nursery and never allowed to be alone in the company of children around the church.”
Smith said some of her statements were taken out of context in the filing, but she said she stands by everything she wrote.
Abuse 'unfounded'
Court filings state that another defendant, Meaghan Varela, allegedly made accusations of child abuse against the pastor, which led to a December 2008 visit from the Oregon Department of Human Services. The social worker informed O'Neal's daughter that someone also reported that pornography was being distributed to children at church.
"The allegations of child abuse filed by Meaghan Varela were extremely painful to my family," O'Neal's daughter said in a statement.
The DHS concluded that the child abuse allegations were "unfounded," court papers say.
ACLU's Fine said the court will look at whether the defendants' statements qualify as opinions or assertions of fact. Opinions are protected under free speech law.
Smith told msnbc.com she received messages of support from church members, and some told her they would like to post online about their own concerns but they're afraid.
"They've seen what happened to me," Smith said. "[O'Neal] sued me."
“He’s trying to bully people," she added.
More content from msnbc.com and NBC News:
Leave a Comment:
Maybe she should get a real job and stop making "blogs"?
THIS is her job - to protect her family. If the "church" does not like it maybe they should try and change themselves. Bullying should NOT be a church's job. Suing the family - REALLY? Not a good church.
Virginia, good idea! Maybe YOU should get a real job and stop posting on Newsvine? BTW your boyfriend looks like a scumbag.
Martin Luther a monk, did the same thing, the church then also tried to silence him, he won; unless she accused the church leaders of some crime or immoral sexual acts, the lawyers motion to dismiss will be granted; also the judge may cast the church for all costs and attorney fees, for filing a frivolous lawsuit!
UDunnoBro...... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Thanks for that laugh.
If this is not a SLAPP lawsuit I don't know what is. I'll bet that every word she wrote was the truth. Churches can dish it out but they sure can't take it. Suck it up and get over it preacher. Churches have always used fear and guilt to control the minds and actions of their "flocks"
sounds to me like the court might have to rule that the criticism involves religious issues which the court cannot rule on. as for the CPS issue, if it can be proved that a false allegation was made intentionally the person who made the allegation can be prosecuted--doesn't happen often because people who report alleged child abuse or neglect have considerable legal protection (to the point where one wonders how the church would even have known who made the allegation, since identity is protected unless there is a court proceeding and even then may not be disclosed)--but most jurisdictions have some provision for prosecuting intentionally false reports.
you cant sue over a review, its a review of a product/business and YES a church is a product/business. You are offered a service for pay (your "donations") and if you feel you did not get proper treatment after payment you are legally allowed to say so.
She posted reviews on Google which means there was a "review" section which means the church wanted these reviews.... boo hoo grow up and deal with the bad ones as well.
They have no case, I have written many many bad reviews and many more to come and any one who wants to try and sue me over it can go screw!
When Bible-thumpers turn sour on their church it is never a pretty sight.
@tron - you've found us out; our cover is blown. Your utopia is what ... where there is no free speech, no independent thought, no tolerance, no religious freedom?
Politics aside (and what do politics have to do with this story anyway), isn't that kinda hard to square up with the teachings of Jesus?
Religion aside, isn't that kinda hard to square up with the Constitution?
Tron, you sound extremely intelligent. So very, very glad you shared your keen insight. Your genius is truly impressive.
Hope the church is happy with its choices. Now I'll start reading her blogs, too.
Just one more reason that, while I believe in God, I will not attend any church.
Guess this church never heard the scripture "Turn the other cheek" I mean come on, she is a stay at home mom, home schooling her kids and apparently right about this so called church if they are going to sue her for expressing herself and her beliefs for an "UNGODLY" amount of money to just bully her into stopping.
Maybe they should sue MSNBC, this article probably hurt the churches reputation more than this ladies blogs.
Virginia Sanchez- if you don't think being a stay-at-home mother to seven children is a "real job" then as my Mama always said, "on a scale from ONE to CRAZY you are a purple giraffe. "
...oh yes I did.
I like you BormFam, you silly.
I like you BormFam, you silly.
I would have to question who the real bully is.
That "churches" reaction only confirms that they are a$$holes and further ruins the "christians" image to non christians. I was raised by a United Pentecostal mother, my mom forced me to go to that fkn United Pentecostal holy roller Church and now she can't, to save her life, figure out why I have such animosity towards those snobby a$$ dweebs that think that they are just so cool. What kills me is that they (most of 'em, not all about 98% don't) don't practice what they preach. There are some that are true blue but NOT very many. The last time I went was a few years a go around 2007 and they were playing what was as close to rock n roll as they could (I Laughed my a$$ off at them)and this after years of preaching against what they called "worldly music". I figure if you're gonna be then be but make up your fkn mind and don't be wishy washy. Hell, if decide to go to church I don't wanna feel like I'm in a fkn bar. That's one of the reasons that they don't have any respect from non church goers is that they say one then try to act like us as much as they can without being what they call "worldly". I would have waaaaaay more respect if they lived and acted like what was in the bible. But these days you can't tell the difference kinda reminds me of how my uncle described the VC in vietnam. He said that a lot of times they wouldn't wear a uniform and they couldn't tell the enemy from the "friendlies" so they would just shoot 'em all. I really some of those fkn holy rollers read this and get a fkn clue. Make up your fkn minds who's side you're on. As for me I would rather Rule in Hell then serve in heaven.
@Virginia, you are SO quick to pass judgement that it is DISTURBING. Your attitude is absolutely DISGUSTING, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Here you go criticizing this mother, saying "Maybe she should get a real job and stop making "blogs". Well, I NEVER ONCE saw in your post ANY mention that you might have a "real" job. Why don't YOU tell us what YOUR job is, and all of us on Newsvine will determine if it's a "real" job or not. How would you like that, I'm sure we're ALL up for it!
You do NOT know that this mother doesn't have a job, she could've started this blog in her free time for all you know.
Why don't you shut up and THINK before you say something? Does your brain not have a filter for what comes out of that big, judgemental mouth?
Yes, I laughed at the comment by udunnobro, and many of you did too. Don't deny it.
bormfam, how much does being a stay at home mom pay? oh yes i did.
The problem with this church, as with many many others is, they use fear base tactics to get you to follow them. Churches use fear in itself as a tool, used to scare a person enough so that they will turn to them for total guidance. That being said, the problem is, the pastors/preachers themselves do not follow the teachings totally as they were given. The idea is, not to look on the outside for help(pastor/preacher), but to look on the inside for help(within ones self). Some may say that God is all around us, true, but they forget, God is within each of us as well. This is where you look for God, which is the closest place ever if your looking, God does not talk to us from a book or a pastor/preacher, but from within us. Churches have grown materialistic over the years, just the opposite of of being what they profess to be, spiritual. Don't believe me, just look around the inside of some of the bigger churches and tell me what you see.
Words of wisdom to this pastor, the real church/temple is the body, not the building, and if you want people to really listen to you, suing someone for material things(money) isn't being spiritual at all, or even following the teachings of the Christ. Live what the teachings say and lead by example. And because she rubbed your ego the wrong way is not a reason to sue someone. And yes pastor, you do have an ego!
The church I went to as a child told us it was a sin to look inside ourselves or to use our own inner strength to find direction in life. We were only supposed to look to God, the church, & the Bible, and He would point the way we should go. I would wait and wait and wait for God to tell me, to give me a sign or "talk" to me like he supposedly did to other churchgoers. I couldn't understand why God didn't tell me anything like he apparently did to the others, and it terrified me - did that mean I was not a real Christian? Was I going to hell? I've NEVER once heard the voice of God or felt his presence, never felt a sense of peace or comfort when I prayed for it, despite being a very devoted Christian for 20 years. Not once. I was absolutely baffled. Anyway, finally I would have to break down and try to make a decision for myself, all the while fearing I was going to hell for committing this so-called "sin" of thinking for myself. As a result I've always had a hard time trusting my own instincts, though they have actually never led me astray. While there were many nice folks at this church, overall, people were very judgmental and anyone who wasn't a Christian was considered evil and incapable of loving anyone else, because they didn't have God's love in them. It was a very Us vs. Them mentality, and I've been to many other churches and they are all the same. I want absolutely NOTHING to do with any church or any religion. I don't have room in my life for all that soul-destroying guilt and fear, nor can I stand to be around such phony, judgmental people. I can completely relate to this woman having to deal with the mind control, guilt & fear and the shunning by the other church members. So much for "Christian" values! I am not a Christian now mostly because of other Christians, so I guess they'll have my blood on their hands in heaven (they actually taught us kids that if we didn't convert our friends to Christianity, we'd still go to heaven, but we'd be able to see them suffering in hell, and their blood would literally be on our hands!)
I do not blame her for making a blog about that church. If the members of that church were treating her the way it is discribed then I have to wonder about it being a cult. Its that or christians are not who they think they are. I for one do not attend a church nor do I believe in any religion however I do believe in God. Too many times I have seen what "Christian" behavior is like and it is more a cult than I want to know.
i feel for this woman, i was a youth minister for many years, and was forced to watch my ministry destroyed and ran out of the church, all because my best friend was geting a divorce and i didnt stand up and declare my best friend was going to hell. I refused to take part in it, i had never before with anyones personal life declared them going to hell cause thats not my decision to make, and i wasnt about to start. so, as a consequence i was abandoned and ostracised. after tryin to find a church that wasnt so petty, and finally seeing all the hatred that church goers tend to harbor, i gave up on organized religion.
She has a right to free speech. This isn't Nazi Germany. The church should get over it and leave it in God's hands...unless they don't believe in that.
They believe in taking your cold hard cash and
living off the backs of people who can least
afford it.
Is it really uncommon for churches to do this? I think not.
I am not religious, yet my daughter goes to a religious elementary school due to the ex-wife, and I can tell you that I have felt like a leper at times.
I find it extremely despicable that a church who makes thousands of dollars every year from its parishioners would sue a stay-at-home mother of seven. The fact that the church actually chose this route is disgusting and just reinforces this woman's blog. But sadly I guess you are correct, James...After all, someone has to pay the credit card bills for those gold plated offering trays passed around at their church, why not a STAY-AT-HOME MOTHER OF SEVEN?! All of us better be careful posting our opinions here. This church may come after all of our IP Addresses to get us to foot the bill for their yearly property taxes.
ah, another church and pastor that has no idea of what christ was talking about. they love to preach it but just can't seem to live it.
Yes she does have a right to free speech - but she does not have the right to not be held responsible for her speech if she defames or injures someone. the 1st Amendment is to protect people from the Government not everyone.
excuse me tron, but from what version do you get that. reference please?
Hey tron...You're not allowed to have an opinion or give criticism on any of this unless it directly correlates with mine..oh, sorry, I was just role-playing this news story.
And, um, I think you need to look up the definition of "bullying." I'll gladly pay for a few college courses for you to educate yourself. After all, it takes a village. Also, maybe think about not acting as if you know anything about any of our life stories or who each of us may represent.
Sorry the first amendment trumps the self glorified teaching and actions of any Church, the church does not have special privilege to silence people or have legal recourse over the speech of others... If you can sew someone for a review... what to stop movie manufactures from sewing critics... or any consumer media for bringing attention to a dangerous products and practices of a manufacture.... the church can bring any lawsuit they want.... will they win? I doubt it... they are just getting their panties in a bunch because someone dare speak out over how they feel they were wronged by them.
If they do win Barrack Obama has a lot of conservative nut media to sew the @!$%# out of.... you don't have to agree with it... but people have every right to voice their opinions... to sew (cry) about it is to just be childish.
Churches are businesses, and many of them are also run like cults, with hard core fundamentalist weird dudes at the helm. I am glad this lady told the truth about her former church, and I believe that churches should be taxed so they don't get a free ride to sell their father god brainwashing and rake in the $$$. The pastor is defying the advice of Jesus by filing a lawsuit, and I hope that if by some insane chance his father god BS is true, that he will rot in hell for eternity in a lake of everlasting fire:)
MireVo3- Amen!
(excuse the pun)
Why didn't she leave the crazy people at the church alone. She left the church, so they didn't want anything to do with her. What's the problem? She's as stupid, petty, and hateful as they are.
If I've learned anything in life, its to leave crazy people alone. Nothing good comes out of it.
Having 'been there, done that', I don't doubt Julie Smith is being honest about here experiences and the events at BGBC.
Many of us have had similar experiences on our spiritual journeys. Cults are insidious, they do not advertise themselves as run by greedy control freaks who disdain the words and example of Jesus. They manipulate vulnerable people in ways that are hard to perceive much less define.
I'm actually surprised that BGBC would file suit. They have opened a door they may regret.
Hi SRMcMahon,
Yours- "..criticism involves religious issues which the court cannot rule on..."
No, it's quite clear. Real defamation is not a religious issue, and the judge will make a decision about that. Making baseless accusations about a person's character or actions is defamation, like calling someone a liar in print when they're not. Saying that a church is creepy is not that. Accusing them of spiritual abuse isn't that either; it's just an opinion. Accusing the pastor of stealing money or sexual impropriety is defamation when those things didn't happen. It's also fraud and will become perjury the minute the mom swears out an affidavit.
If the church was really the innocent party, they could have lodged a complaint with the local DA, saying the Mom had committed fraud if she had accused the pastor of theft or physical abuse when it didn't happen. The fact that the corporation is suing for civil damages means that 1-, they got bad advice from a lawyer, which I doubt, or 2- they really don't want that much scrutiny of their own actions or history. It's easy for an institution with a few resources to outgun a single mom and push her into bankruptcy. Again, this is a rather lawyerish tactic that puts the spotlight on the mom and takes it off the church.
I agree ..........so much for freedom of speech. Sounds like this Church needs to grow a pair!!
I agree that she is not protected from a lawsuit by the First Amendment - she isn't being prosecuted by the gov't. However, I have a very hard time understanding how a so called "man of God" would try to prosecute a former parishoner, just because she has chosen to criticize his church and how he runs it. If he truely was a good Christian, he would turn the other cheek. But sadly, too many of these pastors start believing that they are infallable. They relish the adoration of their flock and it goes to their heads - they are like the vain, insecure kid, who bullies the weaker kids, because it makes them feel superior. If this man truely wants to do God's work, he should immediately step down as pastor and seek guidance from someone who can put him back on the right path.
This Pastor and this Church is a complete Abomination to the LORD JESUS CHRIST. The Word of GOD tells us that we are not to go to the World Courts to solve the body's problems. Yet the first thing any new believer needs to realize that when a Church says they are the only way. Then you have a serious problem there and that is they are of a Sectarian Spirit. This does nothing more than solidifies my opinion of the entire Catholic/Protestant Pagan Church. They are not following God's Word if they where we would not have the issues we have in this current economy. The Church is suppose to feed the widow and her orphan children. This includes what we call today single mothers who have no husband to help them raise their children. Christ told us pure and undefiled religion is to take care of the widow, orphan, and stranger within your gates. This Church is not following any of that. In fact they are not following the WORD of GOD at all. I tried to call this Pastor and let him know he is screwing up and not even representing Christ. Jesus would not do this to any single mother. EVER! PERIOD!
Let me start off my saying that this is truely not a New Testament Church or the Pastor would be following the rules Paul gave us. Do not take your brothers and sisters in Christ to court. Doing so only hurts the witness of the church and its members. If you are not able to make it right between the other church member, you are supposed to accept the wrong doing from the other member and continue in your christian walk with the Lord. Therefore, what this church is doing is wrong biblically and all its members should be ashamed of their pastor and firing him from the pulpit cause he is not following Christ or the Bilble.
Hey SwordNPen, just to be clear, most of the Pagan community have nothing to do with Catholics.
I keep seeing comments that if the pastor were a true Christian he wouldn't sue the mother. I'll take it a step further and say that if he were a true follower of the god he claims association with, he would have not kicked her family out and made the effort to understand the issues and resolve them in a Christian manner long before it ever reached this point!
That "church's" reaction only confirms that they are a$$holes and further ruins the "christians" image to non christians. I was raised by a United Pentecostal mother, my mom forced me to go to that fkn United Pentecostal holy roller Church and now she can't, to save her life, figure out why I have such animosity towards those snobby a$$ dweebs that think that they are just so cool. What kills me is that they (most of 'em, not all about 98% don't) don't practice what they preach. There are some that are true blue but NOT very many. The last time I went was a few years a go around 2007 and they were playing what was as close to rock n roll as they could (I Laughed my a$$ off at them)and this after years of preaching against what they called "worldly music". I figure if you're gonna be then be but make up your fkn mind and don't be wishy washy. Hell, if I decide to go to church I don't wanna feel like I'm in a fkn bar. That's one of the many reasons that they don't have any respect from non church goers is that they say one thing then try to act like us as much as they can without being what they call "worldly". I would have waaaaaay more respect if they lived and acted like what was in the bible. But these days you can't tell the difference kinda reminds me of how my uncle described the VC in vietnam. He said that a lot of times they wouldn't wear a uniform and they couldn't tell the enemy from the "friendlies" so they would just shoot 'em all. I really hope some of those fkn holy rollers read this and get a fkn clue. Make up your fkn minds who's side you're on. As for me I would rather Rule in Hell then serve in heaven.
This really depends on the exact wording of what she said on-line. If she, for instance, said that they were abusing children and it turned out that she was lying or misinformed about it, no amount of free speech is going to protect her.
However; if she's just saying things like, "I hate this place everyone is so mean." Then she can continue to do that to her heart's content.
If a church can sue, it can also pay taxes.
American Christians the new terrorists ?
Excellent, gillanator!!!!!!!!
Not all Christians, but enough of them ARE terrorists in many respects. They scare me to death.
As much as I disapprove of the church, if she defamed people within the church and can't prove what she said is true, she can be sued. If she called the priest a child molester or told the world he was a murderer - that type of libel can ruin his name. He has the right to protect himself from that by suing her. Why would you all assume has no legal recourse? I haven't seen what she's written so I don't know if what she said really is libelous, but just saying...the first amendment doesn't protect you from publicly trashing someone's name with blatantly false information.
Now if she was just discrediting "god" I don't see how this could even make it to court.
I was reading the pastor's statement "We have not gone hastily to court," O'Neal said in a statement released to msnbc.com. "For three and a half years this group has been engaged in a public, church to church, and World Wide Web defamation, showing their willingness to discredit God, harm the church, harm wives, harm children, and harm the testimony of Christ's Gospel."
I hate to tell you this, sir, but NO PERSON can discredit God..... they can argue His existence, etc...... but they cannot discredit Him. If people find fault with your church and it's policies, perhaps you should listen and consider what they are saying rather than suing. WWJD? He would not sue.....
If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers! (1 Cor 6:1-6)
The church is clearly in the wrong here.
IMO: this whole thing is just wrong, wrong, wrong. A church should not be suing anyone. A pastor or minister is supposed to lead the church and resolve disputes. He should have been instructing the congregation to end the fued, not adding to it.
Also, shame on the attorney involved for not working to end the dispute. He knows he's not going to be getting any money out of this. Why file a 1/2 Billion dollar suit when you know better ?
Many years ago, my mother was very active in our neighborhood church, including cooking dinners for the youth group every week. One day the pastor asked for suggestions to improve the service, and she said she'd like the "moment of silence" to be a little longer - and he was so insulted by the idea that HIS voice wasn't the only reason to be there that he became quite hostile. I've known some wonderful preachers who truly do preach the gospel of Love, but there are others with egos that just grow and grow until they think they speak for God, instead of humbly trying to discover how to serve others.
The priest is an idiot. Now more reporters are going to dig deeper into this "church's" practices than ever before.
Capitalismkillsbirthrates speaks the truth. See post 2.23. Wake up people and educate yourselves. Don't just accept what you've been taught from birth. Learn about human history and then believe what you will.
I have said it many, many times before and I'll say it again. If the Church wants to use the law (political influences as well..) let them pay taxes. Period.
This should be extended to lawsuits and their precious government-funded social programs as well. They want their cake....... and are eating your slice as well.
So much for that so called Christian Minister's Church philosophy of "Turn the other cheek!"What a shameful reaction!!!! Now is he going to sue us for our reactions, too?
This reminds me of a two year encounter with JW'S. They tried to control me but I was not one of the poor third world immigrants they like to prey on. One day I had enough of their attempted control of my life so I just left and immediately felt relief.
i feel for this woman, i was a youth minister for many years, and was forced to watch my ministry destroyed and ran out of the church, all because my best friend was geting a divorce and i didnt stand up and declare my best friend was going to hell. I refused to take part in it, i had never before with anyones personal life declared them going to hell cause thats not my decision to make, and i wasnt about to start. so, as a consequence i was abandoned and ostracised. after tryin to find a church that wasnt so petty, and finally seeing all the hatred that church goers tend to harbor, i gave up on organized religion.
No, he'd get hung up on a cross.
@ Virgina Sanchez.... raising 7 children is a real job. actually harder than many 'REAL JOBS' as you would probably include in your list of 'REAL JOBS'. I am glad your comment was collapsed. It truly was a waste of time for you to write and for me to read. Maybe I should sue you for the 5 seconds you took from me.... oh, but i can't/shouldn't/won't because I respect your right to free speech and always will whether I disagree or not. : )
@Capitalismkillsbirthrates - What you state is your own opinion tho you state it as fact.
THERE IS NO GOD... and you know this how? Please tell me how you know this as fact. If there is one, I would be very careful about what I say or don't say about there being a God or not. I would leave well enough alone whatever I believed to err on the safe side. LOL, just my opinion. I would hate to pass on and be caught with my pants down like you will be if there is a creator waiting for us on the other side. Many people consider what you posted myth also. Not fact.
Science can neither prove or disprove A True God. Yet you posted as fact what you believe. I personally do not see the reason for bashing anyone because of his or her personal beliefs. Too bad more people in the world from both sides, believers and non believers felt the same way. We would definitely have a much safer, peaceful world for us and our children to live in. Just my opinion as I cannot say what is fact or not.
As far as the woman blogging her feelings. She should be able to, it is her right to free speech just like the two posters I referenced have. We must protect our right to free speech no matter what, whether we agree with what someone says or do not. It cannot go both ways. Freedom of speech is dear and we must protect it... even if all of you here in the vine wanted to call me an idiot... I would respect it. It is your freedom of speech.
I truly hope this church reconsiders its stance and drops the lawsuit and they both just go there separate ways. Also, the comment about a church being able to sue should pay taxes actually makes sense in my own humble opinion because after all, the church is using our taxpayer money to fund the lawsuit... judge, court, employees etc... just my opinion.
@ Doobie McStoned... your name says it all. I really did not find much use for your comment as it pertains to the article we are discussing. On the other hand, I sense a lot of built up anger. I sense a lot of bashing. I sense the need for some counseling and maybe a few less doobies.... fkn this... A$$hole that... lmbo... Doobie you have to win the most useless comment of the day award. Maybe, it helped you tho to rant uncontrollably about your past experiences and just maybe you should HUG IT OUT with your mother.... hehehehe... have a good day Doobie McStoned... I hope no one cuts you off in traffic or in line at a store : )
@ Doobie... one more thing... we have road rage... I think we all just experienced 'VINE RAGE'
thank you for my new saying.
'VINE RAGE' copyright - 2012 - all rights reserved - Chris Catain
still laughing extremely hard, probably as hard as you do after a few of your doobies Mr. McStoned.
LMBO.. right off!
LOL Vine Rage. Been there, done that.
You must be one of those fkn "christians". If you are a thumper you just proved my point about all of you hypocrites. Holier than thou, like you can stand judgement over someone else. Clean up your own back yard, thumper before you try to clean someone elses. What did YOUR precious Jesus say about a beam and a mote? Yeah I know the story, I read it. And something about being without sin and casting the first stone, yeah that's what I thought, so just STFU!!!!!! 666
Hey pastor, bring god to the court room so we can once and for all hear from it. Seriously defaming gods name can now get you sued? WTF is wrong with America?
Glad to see the mother speaking out. Religion IS destroying this world and there is nothing peaceful, honest or respectable about religion. Religions control and brainwash those who attend services!
Churches do nothing to promote civility or respect for others. They preach it, but don't practice it. Religions and the religious are the biggest bunch of intolerant people on the planets. They preach acceptance of others, but shun them if you don't kowtow.
Shun religions or it will be YOUR downfall!
Christ would be so proud of this O'Neal fellow.
This isn't about God at all. Read the article for crying out loud.
She's not being sued for her opinions. Which she has been making public for the last 4 years. According to the article, she's being sued for defamatory accusations.
Too often true of Christians in America. As with others I could name, the atrocious acts of the organization have revealed the truth about their hypocrisy. Now, that's God in action. (GOP - Take a hint, fools)
@pullmyfinger13, I'm sure they DID read the article, they are ALLOWED to post whatever opinions they like on the Vine without you jumping down their throat for it. Are you that dumb, that you would think that somebody would just post without reading something? Ugh.
This isn't about what YOUR idea of opinions is...take the pineapple out of your ass, for crying out loud!
Anything that can be used to someone's advantage, will be. Religion is definitely among the most powerful tools, but not the only example. It is frustrating to be grouped with a fraud like this pastor.
I hope that the lawsuit brings about an investigation. One of the defenses to a defamation lawsuit is that the statements are the truth. But for a church to SUE asking for monetary award might just cause the IRS to look at the church and see if they really deserve to be tax-exempt ... so the suit may just backfire on the church. If the tax people decide that the monetary pleading violates the tax code for a non-profit, the church could wind up paying property taxes along with income taxes.
From my experience and maybe this has changed, lawsuits are not taxable income.
DR-oss; if it is a award for loss profits or loss wages, yes the awards are taxable as ordinary income.
That is an interesting point, Cat
nice point. the church has opened the doors to close scrutiny for as long as the suit exists, and the courts' don't like to diss suits like this so as to not promote their spurious filing. whatever happened to 'turn the other cheek' or 'love those who despise you'?
too bad plaintiff's allegations in its suit won't be construed as 'admissions' or 'admissions against interest' as a basis for an IRS audit. they should be.
Looks like defamation damages are taxable income under the IRS code.
But, let's see what the IRS themselves say:
Hmmm ... so according to the IRS, if the church won a $500,000 defamation suit, every penny of that would be TAXABLE. If the church then refused to pay taxes on it, they would be opening themselves up to an AUDIT by the IRS as well as compounding interest from the date the taxes were due.
I dunno ... if I were the pastor I'd have turned my back and ignored her rather than set up my church to pay taxes on ANYTHING.
Yes, it is taxable, but would be taxable at the church's applicable rate which is ...wait for it... zero!
I don't think so. I think that considering it's not operating expenses for the church and is not related to a church's "mission" that it would be taxed at the applicable rate for $500,000 for a BUSINESS.
Gee, the main reason I stoped going to church. Read the bible and let it go.
Yes there are true Christians in America, but you won't find us in churches......
Amen NC Open Heart. The Followers of the Truth don't follow this Pagan Style Church that is not even founded on the Truths of Jesus Christ. For those who say Christ doesn't exist. Well you will have a hard time convincing me that he doesn't since I have had three visitations of Christ. He is real and he is ALIVE. He is not on the CROSS , he is on the THRONE. At the Right Hand of the FATHER. I left the supposed Christian Church a while ago after I experienced some problems in my life and needed financial assistance from the Church I was attending. When a Brother in the LORD called them and said a congregant needed help they told him to call during the week and talk to the business office. I tithed thousands of dollars to this Church and they weren't there for me and my family in a time of need. Needless to say a Church that many call a Cult came to my aide. The LDS Church. Interesting that they where there to help.
Was that about the same time you "stoped " going to basic english class ?
Um, are you sure you don't mean the LSD church? Geesh...
@dirp: ...I'm pretty positive that was a typo.. ._.
There doesn't seem to be a happy medium in church government. If the pastor owns the church, members have absolutely no say in anything especially as to how the money is spent. If it is board-governed, various spheres of influence vie for power. I know what it is like to be in love with the church; and, yet to be at odds with how the church is run by a single man who says God put him in place at that church. His "vision" is all that counts and many, many people who give generously are discarded as road trash. Today's church is a monolog and there is no avenue for the pastor to ever hear from the flock, nor does he want to be burdened with that. The pastor surrounds himself with those he knows will not rock the boat so to speak. Everyone who said they "love" you as a brother or sister look the other way when they see you in public. After many years attending church, I don't even go anymore. And forget about ever seeing a detailed account of how the money is being spent. This is especially true in an evangelical church. I was shocked to learn as much as I did as to where the money went in the mega-church I attended for 7 years. Give any man millions upon millions and he will change from his humble beginnings. I feel for the woman in this article; but, I can't offer her any real hope. That a pastor would sue former members speaks volumes about him.
This is a secular country. Lots of folks would rather go to hell than put up with those other congregants going to Heaven. This goes back to Mark Twain's, " Huckleberry Finn ", where Huck made the decision not to turn in the runaway slave Jim. If you want to go to church... go to another church. But you certainly won't be alone if you don't go to church at all. My suggestion is to go to YouTube, look up Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, and there will be a considerable linkage to the debates over religion, from all sides of the issue. The Middle Ages in Europe were important, not just for Protestant Reformation, but for the concept that, " God is too important of a concept to be left up to the Church." It was that philosophy which allowed for not only kings, but for nations. Small town Oregon sound's like it is on the bottom rung of education, both in Science, but History and Literature as well.
another church demonstrating the Love of God by acting like the world,churchs like this and their Pastors use these type of tactics to control their dwindling followers by attacking them with behavior type situations,but this is a new Low for this church, the scripture teaches us ,"we are in the world ,but to not conform to this world" this church conforms to this world, shame shame shame on the Pastor and any elders that support him.....
I just love how some people make crass assumptions on a place they've never been to. I live in Beaverton, and it's not a small town. We have almost 90,000 residents and are the 5th largest city in Oregon. Plus we have some of the best schools in the state.
So, no. We're not on the "bottom rung" as you put it.
I've been to Oregon. I know the history of the Old Believers who were " White Russians " during the Russian Revolution, who then went to China, the to Brazil, then to Oregon, then to Alaska. These people are not even "Western Christian" in orientation. Thus I'm aware that Oregon has more than a few gatherings of religious folk other than what you might find in a 90,000 population. Given the statistic that 20% of the population is Athiest, Agnostic, Apathetic, etc, Beaverton should have 18,000 non believers, probably a much larger population than the congregants of the church in question.
My son had a similar experience in a church in the greater Portland area. he entered into a religious discussion with a 14 yr old girl from the youth group at his church, on Facebook, and the church treated him like a sex offender. Which is unfortunate. I had a pastor in an Oregon church once tell me he thought I was sent from the devil. These people are human, but unfotunatly I agree with several comments, and the pastor, if he had any worth, would have addressed this persons concerns. Im sure her treatment was born out of gossip at the church.
The churches are not interested in education, only indoctrination. And art and literature? Puh-lease! The GOP has cheerfully helped them to eradicate all three as much as possible. And, voila! America - the emerging idiocracy.
JMoore There is one problem with what your saying. The problem is that the Pastor was never intended to lead the Church. The pastor's office is the office of a Shepherd, one who wants to just love on people. That is what a Pastor is suppose to do. They are the ones who minister to the flock and counsel them and listen to them. The Pastor was never intended to be the Head of the Church. For one CHRIST is the HEAD. Then we as believers have chosen to ignore GOD's word concerning his church government. I have heard every excuse from that died with the Apostles and that Apostles are not for today. Neither are Prophets. Well if you read the word very carefully you will see that none of these Offices where done away with. In fact scripture gives us a clue when they will not be needed. That is when we all come to the full maturity in Christ Jesus. Read it and understand. Don't take pieces of the loave of bread that you like. Take it all as the Bread of Life.
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
As you can see there is nothing doing away with the offices of Prophet and Apostle. The whole reason for the 5 offices of the Body where to bring balance to the Church and not extremism's. The Apostle always held the Vision of the LORD and the Body. The Prophet was the hearer of GOD and the verifier of his Prophecies, let them be confirmed through the mouth of two or more. The Teacher is the teacher of God's Word and knows it front wards and backwards. Why is this? So the Teacher can verify what the other offices say is truly in the Word of GOD and not there own words. The Pastor cares for the Sheep and the Evangelist is like a Sheepdog going out looking for the lost sheep and bringing them back to the flock. This is how the Body is suppose to act. All of us are gifted and are to use our gifts for the maturity of the Body of Christ.
Oh BTW according to Jesus the Christian University's and the Cemetery's or I mean Seminaries are not the ones who chose the gifts of GOD. We are all gifts of GOD and all have a gift from GOD given to them meet without repentance. That means even if your not following God's Word, you where still born into this world with a gift from GOD. Reason why some of you have great administration skills and goal planning. You where given those gifts. Totally FREE!
SwordnPen cliff notes please. No one is going to read your diatribe.
Always thought it was odd that they preach the salvation of jesus from the new testament but use the old testament fire and brimstone to tell you what to ecspect when you dont follow their rules
they say accept jesus is all it takes but then they start with their version of what they call sin , follow their rules or you on the outside again , if you are don't drink the purple coolaid
SwordNPen:
Please just post a reference, and then anyone who wishes can look it up. It's like posting a link rather than cutting and pasting an entire website. That would be respectful to others, which I believe to be a Christian virtue.
Correct me if i'm wrong,but i do believe it says in the New Testament for believers not to take each other to court.
lols. Will the real believer please stand up!
All-That-Is...I think you hit the nail on the head. Now I can't get Eminem out of my head....curses.
My family has something similar to this happen to us with a church. I pat this woman on the back!!!
My mother church got this problem as well, but with more people. The result is that half of the members created a new church and they seem to be doing well.
Um, curious about how Mr. Pastor reconciles this with scriptures like.... um.... turn the other cheek? love thy enemy? If Jesus Christ himself admonished the disciples to allow the Romans to crucify him, I think Mr. Pastor should be able to handle a little ole blog.....
Based on his choice to sue this woman- It is my OPINION (don't want him to sue me too) that perhaps Mr. Pastor's teachings have strayed from those of Christ....
My opinion: This pastor sounds like a vindictive, vengeful, vain, unforgiving, spiteful individual. To attack an unwed female that was in his flock- well, he also sounds like a bully.
He will probably read all these comments and think to himself "they don't know the whole story because I'm obviously right in this." or compartmentalize his hypocritical views with some other lack of logic excuse.
What a small minded excuse for a human. I hope he didn't procreate and contaminate the gene pool.
Where can I send a check to help her defense fund???
What a small god they worship! Why, he can't even handle one 'mama bear' and her computer, but must use an earthly man to fight his battles. Battles he probably isn't aware of, and could care less about.
Wonder if He will honor the subpoena? He will be called, won't he? (meow)
There is no god and the whole idea of church is laughable. A rib from Adam to make Eve. That's cloning. All the DNA is the same. Two men having children as the start of mankind? Get over it. Come back to reality.
Hey Cliffjrs: How about Lilith, the first wife of Adam. Where does she fit in, and if she does what does it mean to a libel suite.
Okay it makes ME wonder if this guy will go after US - people who comment as to HIS church. Wanna dance?
More and more, the dogma of real believers takes over the love factor in their faith and they see themselves as the persecuted when in fact, they have no problem leading the charge towards persecution of others who don't agree with them. This is a sad thing because it divides and pollutes their message to those who might otherwise search them out in the name of reconciliation and community.
They can say they are a "church", but their actions and speech belie it. If they truly followed Christ, they would apologize to her and seek forgiveness. They should have their tax exempt status voided and not be allowed to call themselves a church. They're guilty of everything they said she's guilty of!!
All the members of this church need to pack up and leave. A pastor that would sue one member would also other members. Walk away and never speak about this church or pastor again. Don't walk run to the nearest exit.
I stopped going to church due to the people who attended were hypocritical and most of the "rules" made no sense. Now, churches are limiting your freedom of speech because what they may be doing may be considered a cult. Churches have been given to much power, people have a right to express their opinion and if the church isn't right for them, let them explain why. It is pastors like this that should be taken out of their postion. If they are to follow the bible, suing is not part of the bible, maybe the pastor is suing becuase the opinions are true.
Oh man this sooo reminds me of a brainwashing church I had to attend as a teenager. What a pack of idiots. We went through a kind of shunning too, it was hilarious because we had realized how stupid they all were and so did not care. It's too bad churches do this because there are some good ones that genuinely help people and they all get a bad rap from greedy self surving trolls like this pastor and his brainwashed "flock".
Agreen 100%, Men, meh. My parents sent me to a baptist school because they thought it was the best education in the area. They were horrible - fear-mongering, racist, holier-than-thou, judgmental and cruel. I escaped to the local public school and graduated with A- average, went on to college instead of "understanding my place as a woman" as the church/school advised. Incredible that people still swallow that nonsense.
I attend a UCC church and work for a faith-based nonprofit (my boss is an ordained minister), where I have daily contact with people of varied christian backgrounds. It's funny how it seems that those of the Baptist persuasion are the ones who experience the most trouble within their church congregations. The more fundamentalist the church tradition, the more discord there seems to be within a particular church community. And the harm and discord are usually generated from the pastor/pulpit. The stories I hear revolve around pastors who are on a "head trip", elders who are secretive, congregations that backstab those who register differing opinions. Certainly not following in Christ's footsteps. He was patient and kind - even to thieves and prostitutes!
What kind of person ends up with 7 kids? It's people like this who end up in places like this church.
jdoyle: if all of the evangelicals and catholics truly "practiced what they preach" the US population would probably be a lot close to 1billion people as contraception would be outlawed. Since the invention of contraceptive medication, the number of families with more than 3 children has steadily declined.
Of course, if the Teavangelical Republicans get control of the government, women can say goodbye to their ability to stop having kids and have any control of their own bodies.
Naturally, this isn't really about some poor woman being sued by a church pastor, rather, it's about your political agenda. Thanks for pointing that out -- I didn't know that.
Another useless lawsuit to jam up the already jammed up over burdened court system.
I hope she ONLY bloged the truth, then counter sues the so called church.
Let her tell us where to send money to help with her legal bills. Full time the nonsense of some of these Churches get aired out in Court. Those who agree with this woman should help her just as George Zimmerman's supporters have done.
Can someone tell me the differance between a cult and religion? It all looks the same to me!
One owns guns and the other doesn't. YOU get to chose which is witch!
I was taught that if the Christian church you are attending gives God & Jesus all the credit, and they follow the teachings & boundaries of the bible, as well as practice exactly what they preach - then it is a church.
If the leaders take all the credit for themselves and make up their own guidelines & rules, such as you give me all your money and I get to keep it all, you get to live in poverty because it is cleansing but I get my private jets & big comfy houses because I'm the leader, and basically have a "do as I say but not as I do" style - then it's a cult.
The difference is the size of the following. Otherwise they are identical.
All religions are cults, but not all cults are religions.
Actually I learned in a religion's class years ago that all religions start out as cults, but as they gain history, society's acknowledgment, and larger followings they eventually evolve into religions.
Real churches do exist when Christ is the Head of the Church.
Unfortunately, there are Wolves in Sheep Clothing leading many Flocks astray.
Actually, those wolves devour them,and spit them out.
Many of these "Bosses" operate their so called "church" as a family business.
And, it is a family business, and they have their order and their players.
They are the Supreme BOSS.
Christ warns us.
We just need to become wiser, instead of being manipulated by a wise guy.
There are real churches that have real accountability for those who lead.
They allow Jesus to be the Head of the church.
I haven't read all the comments yet, but I can attest to the abuse factor. I am in process of a website Called Twelve Eagles Alliance, INC for such reasons. Spiritual abuse is REAL! It's hurts and leaves one completely devastated and confused and can do much emotional and lasting effects. I'd like to hear more on this story if anyone knows where I can find this blog I would like to join in and give some references to help make sense of it all. This 'pastor' has just revealed his true character by suing. You can't pick and choose what you believe is right or wrong in the Bible. It's either all right or all wrong.
So, Mr. Pastor you must think God was wrong when he says, " If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers! "(1 Cor 6:1-6) YOU Mr. Pastor are an immature 'Christian" at the very best. Mostly likely a narcissistic, sociopathic, abuser. Don't worry, you're not alone, HOWEVER, God will not be mocked and niether will his people.
Twelve Eagles Alliance, INC is a non-profit organization that EDUCATES, ADVOCATES, HEALS AND RESTORES those wounded by an dysfunctional (meaning abusive) church system. I hope some of you will join us in the fight back. We have no intentions of any law suits however, we do intend to have an alliance that can be the church and judge situations like this across the nation. Our goal is to RESTORE the church to it's original design and heal it's members AS WELL AS the leadership (if possible). If you have any pertinent information that may help us in our efforts or would like to join our alliance please email me at 12eagles.inc@gmail.com . Don't let the enemy shut you down, keep telling your stories.
If you would see true evil --- look to religions.
uh, I say human beings. For religion wouldnt suck so much if mankind hadn't #1: edited the bible so darn much so people could be controlled and #2: impose themselves onto others.
Live and let live. You came in alone and you leave alone, so who cares what your neighbor is doing.
People wrote the bible. Primarily to controll other people. So, by it's very nature, religion is doomed to "suck" as you put it.
That's not a church. Its a bickering, complaint center. Lightness does not dwell where there is such low vibrations by the way. It is law. And yet another reason to follow your own bliss and stop being sheep!
ALL-THAT-IS stopped being a sheep, and look at him... I'd rather be a sheep then look like that...
God Bless America... AGAIN...
2 things to say here...
1. This is exactly why I don't attend church....
2. If the lady no longer attends church there - why does she care what is going on? Let it go already...
Sounds to me this was a battle that should have been over a long time ago.
This pastor seams like he is not a very Godly man. The bible says to "Turn the Other Cheek". It also says "Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You". Just because a person gets their licence to minister, and they have enough money to build a Building(Church), does not mean that they are a Christian. To bring a lawsuit against someone because they deem to open their mouth and oppose a persons views on anything is just ridiculousness. What happened to the whole separation of church and state? I bet you anything that this pastor clings to the law of separation of church and state when it benefits him. When it didn't benefit him, he brought a lawsuit. It is pathetic that our court system would even consider his arguments/complaints. There is the whole "Freedom of Speech" act that protects people from a chance of going to jail for voicing their opinion. This pastor is asking the courts to step on this woman's Constitutional right to voice her opinion. The woman could have probably handled things differently. Maybe just left the church and let it go instead of getting offended every time an old church member didn't wish to speak to her. Regardless of how the woman reacted to the so called shunning, she did not harm the church. Seams like this pastor has a personal vendetta against this woman. He is reacting as a man would when a woman dares to speak out against him or tries to oppose him in any way. He is not acting like the good old christian "Turn the Other Cheek" pastor that he should be. Since this pastor does not wish to act like a pastor and follow the bibles rules, then maybe he should start paying taxes like a "NON-PASTOR/NON-CHURCH" has to.
Bob, I would recommend you read the book, "Kingdom of the Cults" which has a good breakdown on what defines a religeon vs. what defines a cult.
How did this woman harm wives and children by expressing her opinion of this church and they way it has treated her? It sounds as if this pastor is defaming this woman for her opinion(s) of how she was treated - by making it sound as if she is so powerful she can cause Almighty God's character to be blemished. I would say it sounds like his God is not my God - my God is not that weak: But to me it seems this is just more abuse by so called pastoral leadership. What really reflects poorly on God is that someone who claims to represent him does it so poorly.
Very well put David!
all religions are cults.
Count me with #25.2.....they're all cults, some just have more members than others.
Here's the best explanation I've seen of the distinction: