Zimmerman was treated at the scene for cuts and a bloody nose

So in the probably 3 to 5 minutes it took police to respond to the 911 calls, Zimmerman both cut himself and bloodied his nose? I'm not buyin' that. The fact that Martin was shot in the chest changes the story a bit. It would be different if Martin were shot in the back of the head from any range.

I wouldn't believe anything about this case from MSNBC, who have already lied and distorted the facts.

No, it's not obvious. Glad you aren't on the jury.

I think even if Martin did get into a fight with him, so what? Martin could have been fighting for his life. He is likely the one who had the legitimate self-defense claim. First, he was followed, even after the police told Zimmerman to stop it; second, he was followed by someone who was carrying a gun. Who wouldn't stop and ask what in the f- are you following me for? Or Zimmerman may have said something to Martin. In any case, what should have been no more than a fistfight turned into a shooting because a fool was carrying a gun while following someone he was told by the police not to follow. He has no self-defense claim.

Here is the reason to take everything with a grain of salt. "A white man of Hispanic heritage". They are still trying to play this as a white hate crime for media attention.

Brenda, Martin was free to get help without returning to confront Zimmerman. He had a cell phone on him. He could have called for help if he felt threatened by Zimmerman that apparently thought Martin was behaving oddly and decided to follow him. Keep in mind that Zimmerman did call for help and guidance. Martin did not. The tape I heard was Zimmerman out of breath, indicating it was cold, and when asked to stop pursuing he replied "o.k.". He could have just followed Martin without involving law enforcement, but he did not .

I am not happy that Zimmerman was carrying a concealed gun, but it is legal as it is in my state. Martin never counted on that when he allegedly decided to confront Zimmerman and paid with his life.

Who did Martin think Zimmerman was? Perhaps that is more key to this case than anybody might think.

Mistakes in reporting NO it is the media trying to keep the HATE going by rumors

So much for Zimmerman's claim that he shot him during a struggle. Intermediate range means that they were some distance apart when the shot was fired. This makes it sound more like Zimmerman shot him in anger, not self defense. It is also very interesting that Zimmerman supposedly got a broken nose and there were no indications on Martin's hands other than one small scrape to indicate that he had been in a fight. I am guessing that Zimmerman's broken nose did not come from Martin. There is a reason that Zimmerman refused medical treatment the night of the incident and waited to go to his own doctor the next day. He needed time to get someone the mess him up a little more to bolster his self defense claim. The more we here, the less Zimmerman's story makes sense.

That said, I do not care what injuries Zimmerman did or did not have, the minute he ignored the directions of the police 911 operator and decided to take his gun and pursue Martin he lost all claim to self defense or "stand your ground." Whatever happened, Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and that makes him guilty of murder. If he gets let off on a self defense claim the city is going to explode. You do not play vigilante and go chasing after a person with a gun. This is the job of the police, not a private citizen. The reality is that there had been a number of break-ins in the neighborhood and Zimmerman wanted to be the hero and catch the thief. Instead he confronted and then shot an innocent kid. Zimmerman is a wanna-be cop who played vigilante and screwed up. He deserves to do time for it. It will send a message to all other would be vigilantes to leave law enforcement to the professionals or risk going to prison when you get it wrong.

Brenda, owning a gun is guaranteed under the second amendment. Carrying it was his right in Florida as a result of his concealed carry license. Assuming his guilt on the basis of these facts is like blaming a girl's rape on her short skirt.

It's interesting the the autopsy doesn't show any signs of Trayvon having beaten up somebody. A bloody nose would leave blood on Trayvon, yet that's not documented. And apparently Zimmerman's injuries were so minimal that the ambulance was returned to the hospital.

But, hey, you kill someone's child , you should expect to answer for it.

Point blank range is directly against or within six inches of the victim. Intermediate range is from six inches to two feet distance from the victim.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest he got someone to mess him up, especially if the police witnessed a broken nose on the spot... This said, what did it for me, and put Zimmerman in a bad light was when I heard the 911 call. That this also wasn't a short range gun shot AND Martin had nothing on him to attack at range with (except maybe throwing a soda bottle); it further doesn't put Zimmerman in a good light for me.

This has seemed all along to be less an issue of standing his ground, and more an issue of pursuing and to some degree instigating. Even Jeb Bush I believe I heard, had said at one point that stand your ground didn't really apply here (or wasn't meant to be applied for something like this); and Jeb was the one who signed the measure into law.... There was also as BlueBurner puts it, a certain dirth of evidence showing Trayvon was in a fight. A dead guy wouldn't be able to clean himself up, heal from wounds, or anything....

BlueBurner

I am someone's child and I am 48. 17 is no child and some 17 year olds have seen the death penalty. To claim that Trayvon was as innocent as a newborn is a fallacy. I am not saying he is guilty, but let's be real.

Also released was the medical records of Zimmerman's doctor whom he saw the next day. Verified a broken nose (set), 2 lacerations to his head, two black eyes and some injury to his back not previously noted.

Also released by CBS today, text of the coroner's report which showed the gunshot wound to the chest and bruises on Trayvon's knuckles of the kind you get when you strike something solid multiple times.

Also the 911 tape cuts off after Zimmerman says "O.K." and and "oh man . . . ."

This is as bad as a political commercial, give you just enough to make you think the creators way.

Antemortem injury evidence is different from postmortem injury. Wounds or bruising that would appear as a result of injury do not appear if the victim is dead since the heart stops beating and no healing is possible. That is why there is often no bruising apparent in injuries that happen immediately upon death.

All the yak yak yak, doesn't really make any difference. The outcome of this incident will be determined by, " a jury of 12, a judge, an army of attorneys , and Mr. Zimmerman as the central figure, and a room full of spectators. You will be amazed at the various versions of this one incident, as the spin masters spin their tales. Sad to say, that those who are convinced, he is already guilty before his trial, will always be convinced of guilt should he be found innocent!!

Perhaps it would behoove some posters do a little research prior to making assumptions. Not one of the armchair medical examiners seems to understand the terminology. Intermediate gunshot wounds can be very close to the body but not touching the skin or clothing. The stippling pattern and gunshot residue tell a tale as does the damage to the clothing and angle of entry. As to the damages to Trayvon, if he had lived, there would be evidence of injury, more so since the body would have the time to manifest bruising and damage to tissue that would occur as a result of the body's healing process.

Hey ATATPoster. I agree with you on hasty generalizations such as "all Whites are racist". They're not.

Now with that said, let's put the bong down and admit the true population of Whites in this country who would have taken your words about hasty generalization to heart had it been them walking at night and a Black man following them.

Let's go a step further and reflect on how few police in this country would have arrived on scene to see a Black adult male standing over a dead teenager of any race with a gun in a suburban neighborhood claiming self defense and bought that story. Then extend that to the public, who even now don't see any reason to consider whether or not Stand Your Ground gave Martin the right to object to and resist harassment by any non law-enforcement officer.

Then let's take it a step beyond that and take note of the response from the usual White suspects who want to cry race card at any sign of someone Black highlighting the inequality that exists in America. All most of them needed to hear was some irrelevant BS about what was in Martin's school locker to label him a thug and tug out the same old used toilet paper they have their Black crime statistics scrawled on. Never mind that had the races been reversed there isn't a single one of them that would have stood for Martin's character assassination based on what was in his locker or on some Facebook photo. You disagree? Again, drop the bong first, alright? You're going to tell me White America would have understood if people saw pictures of White kids on Facebook that made them look like losers, or found out they smoked pot, and decided they probably deserve the bullet they got in the chest from an adult because they wore a hoodie, "looked supicious" and responded to being followed and confronted by aggressively confronting their harasser?

No the fact my friend is that America never wants things to be about being Black unless it's the Black guy in the handcuffs. Then, God help you trying to convince them things are about anything but.

Now let's get to your free speech stance. Issue 1: Freedom of speech does not convey freedom of accountability for speech. Your rights to disturb peace with your speech end where the next man's right to peace of mind begins. You have been given no authority via free speech to dictate the reactions of your listeners. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Issue 2: Once again you fail to understand that the problem with such ideals is that they are not applied uniformly. You argue for free speech to allow someone to call someone else the N word, regardless of that someone's feelings, and that someone else is supposed to deal with it. There is nothing about the N word that anyone with sound mind can twist to fit the definition of 'criticism'. It is pure insult.

Many others have used this argument. They scream race card when Blacks take issue. Where they (and you) fail is that they then turn around and support the right of anyone to scream antisemitism at any demand that either AIPAC or the Jewish regime in Israel take accountability for their actions, stances, or hypocrisy. They equate any who criticize Jewish oppression of Palestine or Israeli non-compliance with the NPT as "in league with Adolph" and secretly in favor of the Holocaust. They go a step further and support the use of the military to overthrow the leadership of any country who dares to exercise its free speech if that speech calls Israel on the carpet for anything, whether real or imagined.

Let a Black man imply that anybody not in favor of Black claims secretly favors a return to slavery and see what happens.

Now you can collapse this post, flag it, do what you want with it and frankly it would be amusing if you did, because that flies right in the face of any claim to freedom of speech. What you can't do however is dispute any of it, because it's right there in public words and views for all with eyes to see.

@richard, if i saw you in my neighborhood and have never seen you before, and i thought you were doing something suspicious, you are going to get followed, especially if my neighbors have had a few break ins, all while i am calling the police. once you notice me following you, you have a couple choices. you can call the police and report your alleged stalker, you can run away, or you can confront me. if you choose to confront me, you have more choices. you can ask me if i am the one with the problem, or why am i following you, or whatever you want to ask me. you can even yell at me, berate me, whatever you want to say you can say. if instead of responding to you, i simply assault you, start a fight, and it turns out i am now losing, and i shoot you, i am guilty of murder-1. if however, you initiate the assault, like you said "u will f' me up, and you hit me first, get in as many punches as you can because as soon as i am able to get to my gun you are going to be shot.

martin may have also had your "im gunna f' u up if you follow me" attitude.

Richard. Isn't you assuming Zimmerman's guilt with what truly limited evidence that has been released just as bad as what you assume Zimmerman did in profiling Trayvon?

Hispanic is a term the US government made up to identify Spanish speaking from Latin America. The term is only meaningful to the US government. If you'd pay attention to government forms, you asked if you are non-Hispanic white or non-Hispanic black. Latin Americans are like we are: made up of a different races. As a matter of fact, Latin America was at one time divided into 16 different races, with black-black on the bottom.

Nobody has said or explained why Martin didn't continue to his house or call the police complaining that a man was following him. Afterall, that are what police are for to investigate suspicious behavior. Martin could have avoided all this by continuing to the house, called the police and said that a strange man was following him and he was worried and would they send a cop to investigate. BAM end of problem. Cop arrives talks to Martin, talks to Zimmerman and there is no story. But no Martin follows Zimmerman, starts an altercation and gets shot.

I believe stand your ground doesn't apply here. Self preservation and preventing a beating or attempted murder is more likely. If Martin slams Zimmerman's head hard enough against the ground or pushes the nose bones into Zimmerman's skull, Zimmerman is dead. Then we got another black who murders a white man and I guarantee you that there is not going to be a race riot because a black kills another white man!

I'm sure there is an official legally accepted definition of "intermediate range" and I would like to know what that is, not really prepared to accept Mygirl1's supposition.

JSinSD, well said and I suspect in the end the jury would draw the same conclusion....he initiated the confrontation when he got out of the car armed and was not being confronted at the time, had he not done that Trayvon Martin would probably still be alive (maybe in custody for burglary if you wish) and Zimmerman would be out on the the street (armed and dangerous if you wish). Any way you cut it he stays in the car as advised no harm done.

He will probably be offered Man 2 and take the 5 - 7, rather than risk the other long term possibility.

What is the official definition of "Intermediate Range"? Anyone know? Beware of interpretations and facts. I don't think I have heard much facts in regard to this case from officials as of yet... A buch of opinions in regards to the Police Station Cam and other 2nd hand info... Hope the prosecutions learned from the OJ Simpson case.

Richard is right, if you harass people you just might get a broken nose

How can you make up "evidence" as you go along and convict someone in your mind based on speculations? Thank God, you're not one of the jurors!

The article stated, "found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp."

No one will covict Zimmerman! Self Defense according to Florida Law!

Atat,

You are just another misinformed Newsviner on that part about free speech. I cannot comment on the first half of your post cuz I am not Black and have no Black friends that were actually taught any of that crap.

Freedom of Speech protects your right to say what you want but it stops dead right there. The first amendment does not protect you from what is wrought when you speak your mind. There are other laws that do this in a way, being able to sue people that have harmed or wronged you for example, but the First Amendment is not one of them.

To put it in example you have the right to call any of the Black people you see a "N". The First Amendment grants you this right and protects it. It does not protect you against those same Black people ganging up on you but if they do you have other rights to defend yourself or to call the cops or to sue them.

Steven B, I am guessing that you certainly would believe Fox "News." State your evidence where MSNBC lied. Remember, lying is defined as knowingly and deliberately misleading or falsifying the facts. That describes Faux News to a tee. Remember the Steve Wilson & Jane Akre vs Fox Television Stations?

They won a "landmark whistleblower lawsuit" against the station and were awarded $425,000 in damages. However, Fox appealed and prevailed February 14, 2003 when the jury decision was reversed on a legal technicality: the appeals court agreed with Fox that it is technically not against any law, rule or regulation to deliberately distort the news on television, "an argument that had been rejected by three other judges on at least six separate occasions."

See: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto_and_Fox:_Partners_in_Censorship

Where is your evidence that MSNBC does the same????

You mean besides this case where two people have already been fired? How about the exploding truck? That was a good one.

The media isn't the one on trial here. Sharpton isn't the one on trial here. "Libruls" aren't the ones on trial here.

Yet, for some reason many of you seem to be directing your rage at them through your defense of Zimmerman. You announce Zimmerman's innocence and cite things like the media's and Sharpton's reactions as if they somehow mean anything when it comes to the actual guilt or innocence of the shooter.

As a gun-owner and CCW permit holder myself, I definitely don't want Zimmerman to be representative of me or my right to bear arms. He's a fool that made foolish decisions. Unarmed teenagers who are just walking down the street and not in commission of a crime don't end up getting shot due to good decisions on either party, but especially on behalf of the armed individual who initially pursued the teenager.

The evidence only shows that there was a fight. I never really doubted that there was a fight. The evidence doesn't indicate who started the fight. The evidence doesn't confirm nor deny Zimmerman's version of events.

Why would Zimmerman attack Martin when he already thought Martin was up to no good and might be on drugs, especially when he knew the police were on the way.

Because he thought he was a cop, and a tough guy with a gun? Some guys think their guns are their 'get out of the sh!t free" card, and will put themselves in stupid situations because they have it.

What makes even less sense is for Martin to run away and lose his pursuer (as the 911 call clearly indicates) and then return like some ninja in the mist and attack Zimmerman from behind. Why run, lose the guy, and then come back to beat him up? Why didn't Zimmerman agree to meet the police by his truck as the dispatcher suggested, and instead tell them to call his cell-phone when they arrived? (Maybe because he was going to continue seeking out Martin?)

As a civilian, Zimmerman had no right to hinder or prohibit the free-movement of an individual who is not in commission of a crime. If Zimmerman as pursuer found Martin again, Martin would have had every right to stand his ground if he perceived that Zimmerman was a reasonable threat. A stranger, chasing you, not identifying himself, who seems to be pretty wired and utterly convinced that you are 'up to no good' - is pretty damn threatening if you ask me.

NBC and MSNBC can't help themselves.

Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

Nowhere in the story does it define what intermediate range is. Anyone reading this could jump to the conclusion that Tryvon was 20 feet away when he was shot. I used to be able handle the left wing bias in the media as just an annoyance. Now it's starting to make me sick to my stomach. These people are sick.

Classifying Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic" which is a non-existent racial classification.....

If you're white and hispanic - you're white-hispanic.

It also depends how you classify yourself, being that race classifications are largely arbitrary.

But just because a person is part minority, doesn't make them automatically that minority. That's how they used to do it, though.

ok, the ways and means committee on this affair is like this: while waiting for the police to come to the scene, Mr Zimmerman beat him self up, bloody nose, black eyes and such like. Trayvon's hands were cleaned and revealed only the small cut on his hand. the autopsy is revealing just enough to keep the pot from boiling over as this is being profiled as a hate crime. no one is coming out saying it is a hate crime but the suspicions are there. someone has to pay for this murder. i am left to wonder if Mr Zimmerman, while he was on patrol as a neighborhood watch was set up. there are too many unanswered questions and no one is being more suspect than Mr Zimmerman, labeled, WHITE of hispanic descent. Crude!

a firedepartment captain has also been held suspect, demoted, and now what?

Trayvon's mama, is taking a long vacation at the tax payers expense ????????????is this right? why is she in semi-seclusion? sad for the loss mama, but something still stinks in Florida. my other take on this horrible incident is about Rev Al Sharpton, you remember in the past (Tawana Brawley) how he tried to support her until he found she herself had done this. very quickly he had a change of plans. not saying Al Sharpton is completely wrong, but i am wondering about his personal take on this affair now? he is not in the forefront now, haven't heard from him lately.

race riots are an ugly affair and i do think with all the media involvement, this is why we get distorted and wrong information.

Martin had a cell phone and couldn't call 911 to report someone following him? Why?

caught in the middle!

race riots are an ugly affair

And the media just eats it up. They see it as accomplishing two of their objectives. 1. Expose the US as the racist cesspool they see it as. 2. Create more opportunities for stories and videos. Heck, if a bunch of people get killed and injured all the better. Did you see our ratings last night? They were through the roof!!

The media just can't stop fueling the race wars, can they? Anyway, another source has already clearly identified Martin as a white man with African heritage.

WillardsEtchASketch Comment collapsed by the community

I wouldn't believe anything about this case from MSNBC, who have already lied and distorted the facts.

Right because we should listen to unfair and unbalanced FIXed news right Steven?! -_-

What a stupid response to an absolutely apropos comment! Willard, you actually think that saying Fox news is full of crap TOO makes any argument what so ever??? How stupid and lame a response can you make?! All you did was point out that MSNBC is just as guilty as Fox for fraudulent news reporting.

MSNBC is guilty as charged and it should be pointed out because we are all victims of such fraud.

JS in SD and Shuklack I agree with you.

Zimmerman is a cop wannabe and hunted this kid down. Martin had every right to defend himself.

Zimmerman may have found himself on the losing side of this confrontation and got scared.

That is not a "Stand Your Ground" defense.

Rusty, If you go and attack someone it is your own fault alone if you instigate a fight and bring fists to a gun fight....

"A white man of Hispanic heritage". What does this make Obama? A white man of African American heritage or an African American man of white heritage? Hard to figure out since if he had a son he would be like Travon?

Rhynn----I love all your words...and they only prove that you are another person that cannot take color out of any situation.

I avoid dark alleys at night. Most streets are lit.

You are the exact same problem as the guy you commented on. You are both looking for excuses to justify your biggotted feelings towards someone on the opposite side of the black/white crap.

Both of you are trying to justify reasons for blanket judgements on individuals. He took to voice of the poor trod upon white guy, you and the black one. yet both are legitimate because both exist.

Treat people as individuals. Not groups. As be smart enough to realize that because pack mentalities exist, there are certain places in this country and many more in the world where someone who is different in any way is in trouble.

"So I guess they'll be reporting that President Obama is a white man of African heritage now, seeing as how he had a black father and white mother."

That doesnt make any damn sense.... HISPANIC IS NOT damn A RACE!!!!!! HISPANIC PEOPLE CAN BE ANY RACE!!!! MANY ASIANS ARE HISPANIC!!!!! GEORGE ZIMMERMAN IS of WHITE DESCENT who happens to also be HISPANIC. His FATHER is GERMAN (WHITE)... his MOTHER is PERUVIAN from PERU.... 50% of PERUVIAN Citizens are like half white HALF "Indian". the REST of the 50% are made up of WHITES, and ASIANS. The PRESIDENT of Peru for 10 years was JAPANESE. Yea... all of peru is the saaame racial background.... Also Puerto Rico, Chile, and and every other spanish speaking country have the same racial background..... /ENDS SARCASM!!!

This is as stupid as saying all Americans are the same racial background. The US. MADE UP the word Hispanic, because they didnt care about them. And many Whites dont want to admit that many of those Hispanics are just as white as they are. Just like they did to the Irish, and the Italians and Jews.

Your analogy is half baked because youre trying to make a false argument.

This is why you don't JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS!! And the worst offender is Barack Hussein Obama. He could have stopped this racial divide by simply stating when asked "this is a terrible tragedy but we don't know what happened and must rely on law enforcement to do their job. We have the best law enforcement and legal system in the world and I have confidence they will investigate completely and determine if a crime was committed and, if so, appropriate charges will be filed. No further speculation should be done until all the evidence is gathered".

That would have been a RESPONSIBLE reply from the president but instead he "fanned the flames" of racism and now we have a divided country. Those who have said, and STILL say, let the legal system investigate and those who believe everything is done, or not done, simply because of race. Those are the idiots and I am sure we do not have any idiots in this forum and everybody in here believes in our legal system and believes that both George Zimmerman AND Trayvon Martin will be treated and investigated fairly?

Here is my prediction. There is no way George Zimmerman will be convicted of 2nd Degree Murder. The events don't even come close to justifying that charge. MAYBE Zimmerman will be found guilty of Manslaughter but that is HIGHLY unlikely. Why? Because a criminal charge must be beyond a "reasonable doubt" and there already is "reasonable doubt" (if the facts of this article is REMOTELY close). It is VERY likely that the judge will decide there is not enough evidence to support the charge and dismiss BEFORE it even goes to trial.

So what does that mean? Get ready for riots across the country that we haven't seen since the LA riots over Rodney King in 1991. At least then it was basically only in LA. This is going to be across the country and is going to get REAL nasty. And the sad thing is our president COULD have stopped the racial divide but he actually made it worse. What a pathetic and useless president. Instead of "protecting" the people he has divided the people and when the charges are dropped for George Zimmerman (or found not guilty) be ready. You will see a country "at war" like has not been seen in over 100 years. It will not be pretty............Not at all...............

I'll bet one thing; aside from whether MSNBC or FOX or the coroner or we get it wrong, the jury will get it right. And if the evidence that gets presented proves beyond a reasonable doubt that George stepped beyond his authority in being over-zealous in his pursuit of Martin, and the jury believes that he had other alternatives he could have opted for rather than those that obviously led to a Martin-Zimmerman confrontation, I'd say he's gonna get convicted of the 2nd degree murder charge. Stand your ground laws make no provision for antagonizing or creating a threatening posture before you are threatened, and I seriously see no way Martin could have confronted Zimmerman, had George not been armed and decided he was a vigilante with big balls. I may be as wrong as many of you that defend him will think i am, but let the trial take place and I see no way anyone can defend a 2nd degree murder charge in this partiular set of circumstances with a Stand your ground, self defense mode of criminal defense. It ain't gonna fly. That dog won't hunt, and I will lay $50 down for any of you that wanna take the bet in lieu of getting all pissy and moaning about it.

I'd take your bet, jmonarchy. Zimmermann will walk, and primarily for a single reason. There's a definite, and not insignificant, length of time between when GZ was pursuing TM and vice-versa that a competent attorney will argue divides the two actions. Taken by itself, TM's assault of GZ more than warrants his using deadly force.

Also, Expect GZ to civilly sue a truckload of people once this over. Which is too bad, because he's still the root cause of this whole incident and he's likely to profit quite a bit from it.

The classification is either "Hispanic" or "non-white Hispanic."

There is NO "white Hispanic" classification.

His father says he is Hispanic, he says he is Hispanic.

Really?-173951012 #1.51

you have it twisted. classifications on all documents i've seen reads 'white (non-hispanic)'.

hispanic is not a race. they have a variety of racial lineages. there are 'black hispanics and hispanics that consider themselves 'white'. my brother is married to one that does.

geozim's father is jewish. so unless his father adopted him it sounds as though he's 'white' hispanic.

desi arnez was from cuba and hispanic. so is your claim he wasn't white? if not white, what do you consider his race to be?

this country has americans sliced and diced into so many factions to avoid 'contaminating the white race, it's hard to keep up with them all.

addition:

to avoid 'contaminating' the white race/sarc

Fils d'Artemis

I'd take your bet, jmonarchy.

ur on.

geozim's father is jewish. so unless his father adopted him it sounds as though he's 'white' hispanic.

I was not aware Jewish was race based. I thought they were a religion open to all comers. If memory serves me right isn't there some claim that Ethiopians were one of the tribes of Israel?

But unless you are STILL claiming this is a racial hate crime what does it matter?

@ProBusiness...are you kidding me? You're going to blame racial divide on President Obama? He, like all of us, are entitled to our own opinions and feelings. And unless you have been discriminated against in some way, how the hell can you make that type of statement? It doesnt matter what races the victim and perpetrator were, it would've ended up have some racial under or overtone and would've gotten the same attention that this case has. The fact is, Zimmerman overreacted and now someone's kid is dead and they want justice, which is exactly what anyone of us would want. It is what it is. Knowing our justice system, Zimmerman will get off on some stupid technicality or law called "Stand your ground".

Allergic2BS

It doesnt matter what races the victim and perpetrator were, it would've ended up have some racial under or overtone and would've gotten the same attention that this case has.

I agree it should not have mattered what the races were. The fact that a NON Black shot a Black was MADE the issue by MSM and the "reverends" Over 9000 people are shot to death each year. About half are Black and Half are White. 94% of Blacks are killed by Blacks. 86% of Whites are killed by Whites. Interracial homicide is not the norm. So why is this case being made into such a HUGE deal by the powers that be? So in regards to "would've gotten the same attention that this case has" is completely wrong MOST homicides are barely local news.

The fact is, Zimmerman overreacted and now someone's kid is dead and they want justice,

I'm not sure where you feel George overreacted? He was getting a beat down by someone whom, by several accounts, he had asked what they were doing in the area. There does not appear to be a cause of action for Trayvon to sucker punch. George was not a physical threat at the time the words were exchanged. Trayvon became a threat.

which is exactly what anyone of us would want. It is what it is. Knowing our justice system, Zimmerman will get off on some stupid technicality or law called "Stand your ground".

You may feel SYG is stupid. I'll agree it is poorly written. Too bad for you that George will be able to use an older tried and true defense called Self Defense. That law has a higher standard that George met when he was unable to retreat further and reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death.

I'm not sure where you feel George overreacted? He was getting a beat down by someone whom, by several accounts, he had asked what they were doing in the area. There does not appear to be a cause of action for Trayvon to sucker punch. George was not a physical threat at the time the words were exchanged. Trayvon became a threat. trust_verify #1.71

geozim is guilty of poor judgement and over reaction. from concluding that trayvon was "up to no good" and claiming he looked like he was "on drugso or somethin' " to getting out of his car and chasing trayvon.

the small traces of marijuana that were found in trayvon's system were not even significant enough to make driving illegal. if trayvon was looking around it may have been since these townhouse look exactly alike, he may have been lost. being dark would only have complicated things. geozim could be heard on tape relaying to authorities he was having difficulty seeing addresses himself. obviously geozim was looking around also but he had made the assumption that trayvon doing so made him "up to no good".

many on this post have mentioned the trayvon marijuana connection but few address the fact that geozim had been prescribed mind altering drug(s). it's known he had problems with anger management. t_v i'm having trouble understanding why this guy who had attacked a police offficer(s?) had his record wiped clean and was allowed to carry a fire arm. he also had a history (although several years ago) of domestic violence.

of course, none of us were there but i can see why many on this post (including myself) would be leery of this 'he was just an innocent standing his ground' story he's put out. he can get away with claims trayvon backtracked and confronted him. he can claim he was reaching into his coat only for his cell phone when he may have drawing his weapon (at least this could well have been trayvon's perception). he can make any claims since trayvon's unable to dispute them.

anyone who's mind's on the right track would have identified himself as neighborhood watch no matter who confronted who. you don't respond to the question "why are you following me?" with the demand of "what are you doing around here?" when you're the one whot's been chasing this young total stranger and he inquires as to why.

why is it so easy to totally believe that trayvon cold cocked geo just because he followed him; but don't find it feasible that trayvon feared geozim was reaching into his coat to draw a weapon?

also it's difficult for me to understand how geozim, who was allegedly getting beaten within an inch of his life, is able to gain access to his gun with trayvon sitting on top of him. it seems as though trayvon's body would make that an impossibility.

here is my scenario (just a thought mind you). trayvon and geozim come face to face (no one knows the circumstances of how). trayvon demands to know why he's being followed. rather than responding to the fitting question geozim takes control from trayvon and inappropriately demands he tell him 'what he's doing there' but doesn't inform trayvon, who was "doing nothing illegal" (to quote a sickeningly over used mantra) as to why he's following him. geozim pulls his gun to hold trayvon for the police. trayvon fearing for his life wrestles geo to the ground and punches him in the face repeatedly (and bangs his head...maybe) in an effort to get geo to drop the gun. one of geo's spokesperson's made the assertion that trayvon had used his knees to pin down geo's arms. this could explain why trayvon might be screaming even though (if) he was on top. geo works his gun hand free and shots trayvon in the chest.

no one can say this is a true scenario but it's every bit as plausible as the story geozim and his supporters are spreading.

@trust_verify...

i wish i had seen the posts by 'rhythm' #1.28 and 'shulack #1.46 before if wrote #1.72. they had already explained (and greatly so) why no one should except geo's version(s?) as gospel.

krar72 needs to read them too. not that they will be able to articulate anything more than "geo did nothing ILLEGAL" as though he's on 'rewind'.

irene46

geozim is guilty of poor judgement and over reaction.

I won't argue with you on poor judgement. I and others in Georges corner have stated as much. Stupidity is not a crime though.

from concluding that trayvon was "up to no good" and claiming he looked like he was "on drugso or somethin'

I've covered this before but will do so again. To George it may have appeared Trayvon was up to no good. What George saw was a person who fit the description of those breaking and entering in the area. That person appeared to be getting close to buildings and checking them out (I agree he was probably ducking in the eves out of the rain but George saw what he saw) As to on drugs or something... it was night time and raining. George would have seen Trayvon talking to the air, perhaps with animated gestures and upon seeing George giving him a stare down. We now know he was on the phone with DeeDee. Haven't you ever seen someone on the phone who looks silly/crazy until you realize they are on the phone? I'm not excusing Georges AssUMe(ing) those things, just viewing things as he or others might see them under those conditions. Your next paragraph even alludes to Trayvon being confused as to where he was exactly. They could have been feeding off each other so to speak.

the small traces of marijuana that were found in trayvon's system were not even significant enough to make driving illegal.

Nit Picking here but ANY amount of thc in a MINOR is illegal while driving. From a under the influence aspect I don't think he was under THC but perhaps some cravings or withdrawal... Overall though I don't think a major factor other than evidence of truth for his suspension from school and less of a angel than has been portrayed.

" to getting out of his car and chasing trayvon.

Stupid yes. I'll even give you chasing AFTER trayvon but not directly chasing. George had lost sight of Trayvon by turning the corner. Trayvon would have no knowledge of George "chasing" at that point unless Trayvon had come back or was hiding in wait watching what George did. Even at 17 Trayvon could not see around corners or through solid objects.

many on this post have mentioned the trayvon marijuana connection but few address the fact that geozim had been prescribed mind altering drug(s). it's known he had problems with anger management. t_v i'm having trouble understanding why this guy who had attacked a police offficer(s?) had his record wiped clean and was allowed to carry a fire arm. he also had a history (although several years ago) of domestic violence.

Covered the MJ above. I agree George having an Rx was news. I don't know enough about the drugs... other than gloss over by the internet. I thought they were mood altering. Either way FL is one of the more medicated states with legal Rx. I suspect the Rx came out of the anger management problem/counseling.

Your question on legal possession of a gun and then a CCW I get but he was LEGAL. We've argued the "assault on an officer". I am about to STEREOTYPE/PROFILE here with a BROAD paintbrush. How many Blacks have been accused of the same thing and it has been just as trumped up? George appears to have convinced the judge in his case that it was a bogus charge. The expunge of record is not unusual under some sentencing guides.

There is no evidence there was actual VIOLENCE in the domestic dispute. Only mutual restraining orders. There doesn't have to be violence to get a restraining order, only accusation and potential. It doesn't take a lot to get one.

As to the CCW... Provided there is no RECORD of problems all it takes is attending the mandatory training course and paying for the background check. By all accounts George did not have a record at that point. No CONVICTIONS or pending trials on charges. No court ordered mental observations or commitments to mental institutions. That is a whole other debate that we really don't want to bring up here. Suffice it to say I see it as an issue but not having any simple answers. Most states have a piece of law that states it is illegal to possess (nothing about owning) a firearm while under the influence. Much like it is illegal to Drive while under the influence. At this point, and I know this opens the failed to test George can of worms, we don't know if George was medicated or to what degree. For that matter we don't know dosage or why either... that may come out at trial.

of course, none of us were there but i can see why many on this post (including myself) would be leery of this 'he was just an innocent standing his ground' story he's put out. he can get away with claims trayvon backtracked and confronted him. he can claim he was reaching into his coat only for his cell phone when he may have drawing his weapon (at least this could well have been trayvon's perception). he can make any claims since trayvon's unable to dispute them.

I see your view.

My view is no one had SYG until the fight ensued. Even when they were exchanging words. Lets presume Trayvon had a valid concern that George was reaching for a weapon, not his cell phone. I would give him the first punch under SYG... reasonable belief of imminent serious bodily harm. Once George was down the threat was terminated... that is SYG. Had Trayvon left it at that he would have been in the right, legally at least. Much like shooting one shot and the opponent is down then walking up and emptying the gun he crossed the line when he continued his attack. Yes he is a minor... doesn't matter under the law in that aspect. George most likely won't claim SYG. He will claim Self Defense.

*soap box* I see many throw Stand(ing) Your Ground about as if it meant simply standing in one spot. They really need to READ FL Statute 776. There are many definitions/hurdles that need met to escalate to physical force. All SYG is intended to do is extend Castle Doctrine and SHIELD someone from criminal and civil prosecution. Unfortunately Florida Legislature did a piss poor job with the language. *off soap box*

George met the LEGAL requirements of Self Defense. He was down... He could not retreat (old Self Defense REQUIRES retreat until/unless one is unable to retreat) and reasonably believed he was in danger of serious injury or death. Self Defense has a higher "bar" than SYG. It also does not prevent one from being ARRESTED... that is why SYG was enacted; to delay or prevent the arrest.

Trayvon would have needed to wait and see if George was going to continue his "attack/threat" to continue his SYG stance as knocking George down stopped the threat. Like I said the SYG is poorly written. Under Self Defense the threat was removed and retreat was necessary.

Yes a lot of legaleese and more than most people should ever have to know, especially a 17 year old. It is the law however. Even with this case most people won't even try to understand it.

anyone who's mind's on the right track would have identified himself as neighborhood watch no matter who confronted who. you don't respond to the question "why are you following me?" with the demand of "what are you doing around here?" when you're the one whot's been chasing this young total stranger and he inquires as to why.

You touched on it. right track... Two people already keyed up aren't necessarily thinking straight. they both had a "question" at the front of their mind. I'm no shrink but I have lived long enough to know a little about people. I'll argue about George saying he is neighborhood watch. "I live here" would be valid and appropriate. We don't have all the details and timing.. Per DeeDee the words were exchanged and the fight was started. Not much of a conversation.

why is it so easy to totally believe that trayvon cold cocked geo just because he followed him; but don't find it feasible that trayvon feared geozim was reaching into his coat to draw a weapon?

Covered that above... gave Trayvon the benefit there. what I didn't cover is giving George the same benefit earlier when trayvon reached into his waistband (acting suspcious). Not that it mattered in the fight.

also it's difficult for me to understand how geozim, who was allegedly getting beaten within an inch of his life, is able to gain access to his gun with trayvon sitting on top of him. it seems as though trayvon's body would make that an impossibility.

All depends on how George was carrying and whether Trayvon had attempted to get the gun. It would have been 50/50 the way I carry. All depending on how far up Trayvon was on my body and how we went to the ground. It has me rethinking things. That George allowed Trayvon to get so close again goes to George not being so smart or Trayvon surprising him.

geozim pulls his gun to hold trayvon for the police.

I'll give you my how it went down in a moment. Yours sounds great except.... DeeDee never mentioned trayvon saying anything about a gun... just words exchanged and pushing/shoving match ensuing. Other witnesses never SAW a gun. While George may have been on drugs they weren't the superhuman kind. Getting punched in the nose would have made him drop the gun. I would expect a gun to fall in the same area as Trayvons phone.

I'm not attacking you just discounting George walking around with his gun out. When police arrived he had reholstered his gun (page 14 of 183) prior to their arrival. Not sure of the why other than habit.

Here's my thoughts and may fuel Trayvons side.... The fight is "hot and heavy", in Georges mind at least. The two of them are in a rough and tumble with Trayvon on top. Maybe it was Trayvon yelling for help, or George. It doesn't matter for the end results. The two of them are struggling and Georges gun comes free from his waist either from the struggle or they both try to get control of it. George is in panic mode... he never expected to be in a fight getting his ass whipped. He may have had wet dreams about shooting someone but not while flat on his back in a fight for his life (in his mind). He manages to get the gun in hand and points with the intent to get Trayvon to get up. Being in Trayvons shoes I wouldn't just let him point I would have gone for the gun, which does not appear to have happened from what evidence we have. So George is in fight/flight mode and points the gun with the intent to prod Trayvon to get up but has his finger on the trigger and before Trayvon can even realize there is a gun the gun is ACCIDENTALLY fired.

Remember I don't think George is that smart but he THINKS it is better to claim self defense rather than admit OOPS. I can see involuntary manslaughter but that may not sit well with either side.

side bar so to speak... The entire idea of a gun is to keep your opponent at a distance. When one has a gun they do everything possible to maintain a buffer area/distance from anyone who may become a threat. If someone can get within arms length a gun becomes a liability not an asset.

re: #1.73 - Thu May 24, 2012 2:09 AM EDT

I have to side with K on the nothing illegal parts... stupidity is not a chargeable offense. As to taking Georges word for things... I have yet to SEE/HEAR what George had to say. Much like I have yet to SEE/HEAR what DeeDee had to say. Rumors of Rumors on both so far. You can see I don't take George at 100% just a large part. I am less inclined to accept what DeeDee has to say based on her being the girlfriend for starters, the delay in her making a statement and the POTENTIAL influence of Crumps (think that is the lawyer), Al and Jesse. All of them should have KNOWN to simply present her to law enforcement rather than "interview" her.

won't argue with you on poor judgement. I and others in Georges corner have stated as much. Stupidity is not a crime though. trust_verify #1.74

i and other trayvon family supporters have never stated or implied that geozim should be charged for the stupidity of following trayvon. though following and chasing someone is not unlawful it's wrong to menace an individual. also if a stranger is "up to no good or on drugs or sumpthin" it could be dangerous. as it turned out it ended up in the reckless and tragic killing of an innocent kid.

That person appeared to be getting close to buildings and checking them out (I agree he was probably ducking in the eves out of the rain but George saw what he saw)

geozim said trayvon was looking around. i don't recall him saying anything about trayvon ducking in and out of eves.

We now know he was on the phone with DeeDee. Haven't you ever seen someone on the phone who looks silly/crazy until you realize they are on the phone?

all the more reason for geo to have stayed in his car.

Nit Picking here but ANY amount of thc in a MINOR is illegal while driving. From a under the influence aspect I don't think he was under THC but perhaps some cravings or withdrawal

as you know i was pointing out the thc amount in trayvon's body was not an illegal amount for adults. i know some users and i've never heard of cravings or withdrawals from mj. don't think there is such to the degree that they would cause an individual to act strangely.

Overall though I don't think a major factor other than evidence of truth for his suspension from school and less of a angel than has been portrayed.

compared to geozim, trayvon would be the one closer to qualifying as an angel. as everyone knows, geo has/had a record of domestic violence, attack on a police officer and has to be on controlled meds for anger management. neither of us would be surprised if geozim also used mj (just surmising).

Stupid yes. I'll even give you chasing AFTER trayvon but not directly chasing. George had lost sight of Trayvon by turning the corner. Trayvon would have no knowledge of George "chasing" at that point unless Trayvon had come back or was hiding in wait watching what George did.

geozim was able to still see trayvon when he began to give chase. so it only makes sense that trayvon also saw geo pursuing him.

How many Blacks have been accused of the same thing and it has been just as trumped up? George appears to have convinced the judge in his case that it was a bogus charge. The expunge of record is not unusual under some sentencing guides.

i've heard of blacks being hit with bogus charges for drugs, weapons etc; but never ever for bogus charges of attacking officers. a judge believing an african american was framed for hitting an officer and having the record expunged? seriously?

There is no evidence there was actual VIOLENCE in the domestic dispute.

there are photos of geozim after the physical altercation which revealed scratches and marks on his face from mutual combat with his girlfriend.

At this point, and I know this opens the failed to test George can of worms, we don't know if George was medicated or to what degree. For that matter we don't know dosage or why either...

more 'geozim must be the good guy' mentality.

I'll argue about George saying he is neighborhood watch. "I live here" would be valid and appropriate.

what's to argue about geozim identifying himself. of course, you kid me. he was the one doing the following and therefore obligated to identify himself. even plain clothed policeman (which geozim was not) identify themselves. who would sensibly feel an "i live here" response would be appropriate to someone you don't know from a can of paint demanding to know "what are you doing here?"

Per DeeDee the words were exchanged and the fight was started. Not much of a conversation.

dee dee said trayvon asked geo "why are you following me?" instead of giving a deserved explanation geozim responds "what are you doing here" which was a totally wrong response for someone who had initiated a menacing situation. then she heard scuffling and thought trayvon's earpiece fell.

what I didn't cover is giving George the same benefit earlier when trayvon reached into his waistband (acting suspcious).

the misconception that trayvon was armed may have been what prompted geo to reach for his weapon. as i said trayvon may have wrestled geozim to the ground and in an attempt to get geozim to drop the gun he pinned him and began striking him, causing minor breakage to his nose.

All depends on how George was carrying and whether Trayvon had attempted to get the gun. It would have been 50/50 the way I carry. All depending on how far up Trayvon was on my body and how we went to the ground.

if trayvon had geozim's arms pinned he would have had to at least straddle him at the waist. if geozim had not already pulled his weapon (which seems logical that he had) it's likely trayvon's body would have been a barrier between geozim and his firearm. how would you carry a weapon that would enable you to access it in this scenario?

DeeDee never mentioned trayvon saying anything about a gun... just words exchanged and pushing/shoving match ensuing. Other witnesses never SAW a gun. While George may have been on drugs they weren't the superhuman kind. Getting punched in the nose would have made him drop the gun.

if trayvon saw geozim reaching for his gun he would not have taken time to discuss it with dee dee. it's a logical conclusion that the short conversation was due to the fact that geozim was pulling his 9mm and all of trayvon's focus would've been on avoiding being murdered. as i asserted earlier trayvon may not have struck geozim until he was able wrestle and pin him to the ground to attempt to get geo to release the gun.

it's not at all surprising no one saw the gun. it was dark outside. some witness were not even able to tell which one was on top.

@ trust_verify 1.74 cont'd...

Maybe it was Trayvon yelling for help, or George. It doesn't matter for the end results. The two of them are struggling and Georges gun comes free from his waist either from the struggle or they both try to get control of it.

i agree it doesn't matter who was screaming because both had reasons to do so.

it really seems unlikely that geozim would have been able to get control of the gun if the it dislodged while he was pinned to the ground with blows raining down mma style especially if he was close to blacking out as his brother claimed.

So George is in fight/flight mode and points the gun with the intent to prod Trayvon to get up but has his finger on the trigger and before Trayvon can even realize there is a gun the gun is ACCIDENTALLY fired.

geozim told a witness he shot trayvon for beating him. he made no mention of it being accidental.

I can see involuntary manslaughter but that may not sit well with either side.

i agree manslaughter. involuntary? don't think so.

i think because of the overcharge he will probably walk. that would really be an injustice.

I am less inclined to accept what DeeDee has to say based on her being the girlfriend for starters, the delay in her making a statement and the POTENTIAL influence of Crumps (think that is the lawyer), Al and Jesse. All of them should have KNOWN to simply present her to law enforcement rather than "interview" her.

geozim has a much or more reason to lie than does dee dee. without a good story he's looking at prison time.

the trayvon camp should have presented dee dee to the law enforcement? how about the police doing their job and going out to interview her. they had knowledge of (or should have if they bothered to investigate) who trayvon last spoke to on his cell phone.

you projected the responsibility of identifying ones self from geozim to trayvon. now you're making the assertion it was trayvon's team's job to insist that the police interview dee dee.

she had already been interviewed by a cnn correspondent and i believe they reported later that she was reluctant to speak to police for some reason.

btw, you keep repeating geozim did nothing illegal by following trayvon (although wrong). we've never said he did. who are you and k trying to convince?

All very good points Irene, I want to point out one thing, murder 2 may be a long shot, and possibly an overreach, but it still allows for the lessor charge of manslaughter. Those charges fall within the same group so the jury will be able to decide on a lessor degree if they feel it appropriate. I think there is a good chance of GZ taking a plea for manslaughter, I hear his text messages from after the murder are damning, as is his very own version(s) of that nights events.

irene46

Wow I made the effort to meet you part way and instead you took every inch and want more.

Going out of order here :

dee dee said trayvon asked geo "why are you following me?" instead of giving a deserved explanation geozim responds "what are you doing here" which was a totally wrong response for someone who had initiated a menacing situation. then she heard scuffling and thought trayvon's earpiece fell.

So a totally CORRECT response was for Trayvon to slug George for not responding with "deserved explanation"? Sounds like they were both loaded and primed with very few valid responses.

the misconception that trayvon was armed may have been what prompted geo to reach for his weapon. as i said trayvon may have wrestled geozim to the ground and in an attempt to get geozim to drop the gun he pinned him and began striking him, causing minor breakage to his nose.

From Georges POST action response of putting the gun BACK in the holster and waist band and other observations there is SERIOUS circumstantial evidence that George did NOT have the gun out prior to the fight. HABITS hard to break. If George had the Gun out I don't think the first words out of Trayvons mouth would be "Why are you following me"... More like "WTF you got a gun on me"

And sorry but I don't care how small a break, a broken bone is a broken bone. Just like a "little pregnant" is still 100% pregnant.

if trayvon had geozim's arms pinned he would have had to at least straddle him at the waist. if geozim had not already pulled his weapon (which seems logical that he had) it's likely trayvon's body would have been a barrier between geozim and his firearm. how would you carry a weapon that would enable you to access it in this scenario?

It all depends on where Trayvon was straddling. Being that the weights were equal I don't think Trayvon could KEEP George 100% pinned. The struggle lasted at least a minute. Whether Trayvon found the gun and tried to pull it or not George would have been able to wiggle enough to get his hand to his waist. Then it is a question WHERE on his waist he carries. Anywhere from groin to crack on right side(based on where the shot entered and George being right handed) is possible.

compared to geozim, trayvon would be the one closer to qualifying as an angel. as everyone knows, geo has/had a record of domestic violence, attack on a police officer and has to be on controlled meds for anger management. neither of us would be surprised if geozim also used mj (just surmising).

Why would you "surmise" that because one is on a prescribed med that they would be on an illegal one? No more factual than presuming someone on marajuana is automatically on something harder. the Martins are the ones painting angels. When the "bad" came out on Trayvon they chose to claim it was an attempt to ruin Trayvons image rather than acknowledge the facts. George would be aware that THC shows up in testing up to a month and would negatively impact his future career plans. Trayvon apparently was not aware of those facts as aviation careers require recurring drug screens.

as you know i was pointing out the thc amount in trayvon's body was not an illegal amount for adults. i know some users and i've never heard of cravings or withdrawals from mj. don't think there is such to the degree that they would cause an individual to act strangely.

It APPEARS that Trayvon was a regular, if infrequent, user of MJ. Do you think those you know are going to tell you they are having cravings? Just like a regular tobacco smoker will have cravings so will mj smokers. As to the amount in his body at testing being illegal. That is like stating upon testing the DUI driver only tested at .04 BAC and not .16 BAC. You are arguing degrees. Are you arguing that Trayvon was an adult now? Even in states that allow possession under some amount they do not allow minors to possess in any amount. The ONLY reason the school resource officer did not make his baggie possession a criminal matter appears to be Trayvon had used all there was.

i agree manslaughter. involuntary? don't think so.

So you feel accidental shooting is not involuntary?

btw, you keep repeating geozim did nothing illegal by following trayvon (although wrong). we've never said he did. who are you and k trying to convince?

There are those in the martin camp who keep insisting that George having a gun, getting out of his vehicle and walking on community property was in and of itself illegal.

Jo-An-4354969

I want to point out one thing, murder 2 may be a long shot, and possibly an overreach, but it still allows for the lessor charge of manslaughter.

Are you no longer calling George a murderer or just hedging your statement?

Those charges fall within the same group so the jury will be able to decide on a lessor degree if they feel it appropriate.

I guess it will depend on the instructions given to the jury. Casey Anthony comes to mind. Same state laws and charges apply other than George used a gun.

I think there is a good chance of GZ taking a plea for manslaughter,

I doubt it. This is the same prosecutor Marissa Alexander had. Corey will be holding that 10-20-life over George. The LEAST George can get if found guilty is 25 to life, even if he pleads. I don't see a way to make that go away considering the time proximity to the MA sentencing. Even if Corey could offer a 3 year sentence the Judge doesn't have to agree. The Martin camp won't accept anything less.. I doubt the family would be overly accepting and once you get outside that circle it goes downhill quickly. Would YOU be accepting? I think we can all hear the outcry over that now. Warning shot = 20 years while killing "an innocent" gets squat. Just not going to happen.

I hear his text messages from after the murder are damning, as is his very own version(s) of that nights events.

Rumors and more Rumors.

Personally I think this will come down to if George meets the Self Defense requirements in the eyes of ONE or more jurors. I am not sure if there can be a Self Defense pretrial hearing. I know there can be a SYG one, but doubt that will be the route the defense takes. There are significant legal differences between the two. the ONLY way the jury would find George guilty of 2nd degree murder would be to have a jury of New Black Panthers.

So a totally CORRECT response was for Trayvon to slug George for not responding with "deserved explanation"? Sounds like they were both loaded and primed with very few valid responses. trust_verify #1.77 & 1.78

my theory was that trayvon saw geo going for his weapon, at that point dee dee heard rustling noises (not the sound of a punch) which was probably trayvon wrestling geozim to the ground. he then pinned geozim and pummeled him to get him to release the gun.

From Georges POST action response of putting the gun BACK in the holster and waist band and other observations there is SERIOUS circumstantial evidence that George did NOT have the gun out prior to the fight. HABITS hard to break. If George had the Gun out I don't think the first words out of Trayvons mouth would be "Why are you following me"... More like "WTF you got a gun on me"

trust, i never stated geozim had already drawn the gun before trayvon inquired as to why he was being followed. it would have been immediately after geozim demanded "what are you doing around here" which is when dee dee heard rustling noises. geozim's brother or father (i forgot which one) admitted geozim reached into his coat, they said for his cell phone.

i can't speak for your reaction but it's doubtful trayvon would have taken time to converse if he felt a gun was about to be pulled on him. "wtf you're pulling a gun" conversation wouldn't happen.

And sorry but I don't care how small a break, a broken bone is a broken bone. Just like a "little pregnant" is still 100% pregnant.

really? so a minor broken nose is the same as one that requires immediate medical attention and nasal reconstruction. keep it real, trust.

Being that the weights were equal I don't think Trayvon could KEEP George 100% pinned. The struggle lasted at least a minute. Whether Trayvon found the gun and tried to pull it or not George would have been able to wiggle enough to get his hand to his waist. Then it is a question WHERE on his waist he carries. Anywhere from groin to crack on right side(based on where the shot entered and George being right handed) is possible.

if trayvon had been beating geozim to the point he was about to blackout you really believe he had the strength to wiggle free enough to find and grasp his weapon? not to be disagreeable but i still find it would be almost impossible to get to a weapon with someone sitting on your chest.

Why would you "surmise" that because one is on a prescribed med that they would be on an illegal one? No more factual than presuming someone on marajuana is automatically on something harder. the Martins are the ones painting angels. When the "bad" came out on Trayvon they chose to claim it was an attempt to ruin Trayvons image rather than acknowledge the facts. George would be aware that THC shows up in testing up to a month and would negatively impact his future career plans. Trayvon apparently was not aware of those facts as aviation careers require recurring drug screens.

i would bet dimes to dollars that geozim is an mj user. that thought has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's on prescription medications. geozim is legal age (28) and even though using mj is basically illegal it's arguably no worse than using alcohol. i'd be shocked if geozim was not a user.

exposing the fact that trayvon had been expelled because an empty mj bag was found in his locker was really of no value other than to muddy him up. it didn't change the fact he had a right to be in that complex. he was doing nothing wrong. he was uneasy over being followed. and even though he was unarmed he was shot and killed.

geozim's background would be relevant because it brings to question of why he acted the way he did. for example the need of prescriptions to control anger.

many users hold jobs (good ones). any mj users looking for employment knows how to get around being tested, trust. testing does not deter most who wish to smoke and it would be the same in geo's case. he's not that dull.

It APPEARS that Trayvon was a regular, if infrequent, user of MJ. Do you think those you know are going to tell you they are having cravings? Just like a regular tobacco smoker will have cravings so will mj smokers. As to the amount in his body at testing being illegal. That is like stating upon testing the DUI driver only tested at .04 BAC and not .16 BAC. You are arguing degrees. Are you arguing that Trayvon was an adult now? Even in states that allow possession under some amount they do not allow minors to possess in any amount. The ONLY reason the school resource officer did not make his baggie possession a criminal matter appears to be Trayvon had used all there was.

do i think the users i know would tell me it they had cravings. yes they would. do you really not know much about persons that use mj? here's a little knowledge for you. nicotine is far more addicting than mj. the individuals i know who have cravings are cigarette smokers. i've never heard anyone i know say "i need an mj break". however, many are a wreck waiting for a cigarette break.

what are you talking about "am i arguing trayvon is an adult? where is that coming from? authorities reported that there were only traces of thc in trayvon's system. that was an indication that he had not used for several days. i'll put it this way the only thing that makes the amount illegal is because he was a minor.

So you feel accidental shooting is not involuntary?

no, i don't feel this shooting was accidental.

There are those in the martin camp who keep insisting that George having a gun, getting out of his vehicle and walking on community property was in and of itself illegal.

t_v, i haven't seen any trayvon supporters make such claims. i've read that he was wrong, stupid and acting like a wanna policeman, but haven't read one accusation of illegality. you've been reading too many k comments.

t_v, i haven't seen any trayvon supporters make such claims. i've read that he was wrong, stupid and acting like a wanna policeman, but haven't read one accusation of illegality. you've been reading too many k comments.

Profile, Pursue, stalk, harass, chase, displaying his gun while doing the previously mentioned items. Those terms ALL imply illegal activities.

many users hold jobs (good ones). any mj users looking for employment knows how to get around being tested, trust. testing does not deter most who wish to smoke and it would be the same in geo's case. he's not that dull.

Still speculation on your part as to George using MJ. Sounds like you are attempting to do to George what you are accusing Georges camp of doing to Trayvon.

i would bet dimes to dollars that geozim is an mj user.

Perhaps clarify what that bet is... sounds like you are betting your 10 cents to my dollars. That doesn't sound so sure.

if trayvon had been beating geozim to the point he was about to blackout you really believe he had the strength to wiggle free enough to find and grasp his weapon? not to be disagreeable but i still find it would be almost impossible to get to a weapon with someone sitting on your chest.

Only rumors to how close to blacking out George felt he was. Adrenaline is a great strength enhancer and I don't care how powerful the person on top is that does not increase their weight. If Trayvon were literally on Georges chest that makes the waist very reachable... squatting on the waist would make it more difficult. I think we need some details on that.

my theory was that trayvon saw geo going for his weapon, at that point dee dee heard rustling noises (not the sound of a punch) which was probably trayvon wrestling geozim to the ground. he then pinned geozim and pummeled him to get him to release the gun.

IF George had the gun out at any point prior to being hit, he would have dropped it. Never had my nose broken only bloodied while playing touch football and I went straight back and down stunned. I presume a break would be equal or worse in the pain area. That was on asphalt and no other injuries from the fall.

I don't think Trayvon was "stupid". I really think that if he had the time to realize George had a gun, and that it was pointed at his chest, he would have backed off or attempted to knock it away directly. It appears George got a straight off shot... no angle is indicated in the ME report. It was either a point and shoot or a point and oops. I contend that Trayvon had no knowledge of the gun being in play until the shot. Trayvon may have found it and tried to get it out himself but decided it was out of reach.

We can go round and round on each of their histories. They both had them. The PR games on both sides have been just that, GAMES. If ONE matters the other MATTERS. I think they both had ATTITUDE when they met. In the end what will matter at trial, or hearing, will be does George meet the bar for self defense for either the judge or ONE of the jurors. Beyond that it will be a question as to what degree of MANSLAUGHTER. If George meets the requirement of Self Defense it's game set match. If he doesn't it will be 10-20-life that applies. Corey has a history there. There won't be a plea bargain in the middle. At least not one that anyone would see as justice. see my comment to Jo_An #1.79 - Sat May 26, 2012 7:41 AM EDT on that argument. Surprised not to see her rallying behind your comment already.

, displaying his gun while doing the previously mentioned items. Those terms ALL imply illegal activities. trust_verify #1.81

uh, ok. Profile, Pursue, stalk, harass, chase. which one is non descriptive of what geozim was doing? of course, you're aware that in some cases "illegal" defines all of those terms. however, you and k' are the only ones that keep dragging the 'i' word into this situation.

Still speculation on your part as to George using MJ. Sounds like you are attempting to do to George what you are accusing Georges camp of doing to Trayvon.

you're right. total speculation. whether geozim is a mj smoker is irrelevant since it's not known to cause aggressive behavior. it's no more useful than informing the public geozim was a cigarette smoker (not saying he is). geozim's need for prescription meds are most relevant.

sounds like you are betting your 10 cents to my dollars. That doesn't sound so sure.

it's my dollars to your dimes. sound sure now?

If Trayvon were literally on Georges chest that makes the waist very reachable... squatting on the waist would make it more difficult. I think we need some details on that.

i definitely think it would be far more difficult for geozim to reach around (or over) trayvon's legs to get to the gun than if trayvon was sitting on his chest. of course we don't know the position of trayvon's body or where geozim carried his gun.

IF George had the gun out at any point prior to being hit, he would have dropped it. Never had my nose broken only bloodied while playing touch football and I went straight back and down stunned.

if there was a wrestling match over the gun prior to his broken nose geozim's "adrenaline" would have been kicking hard. he probably didn't even feel the blows raining down on him and was able to wiggle his gun hand free and shot trayvon.

I don't think Trayvon was "stupid". I really think that if he had the time to realize George had a gun, and that it was pointed at his chest, he would have backed off or attempted to knock it away directly.

when trayvon saw geozim going for what he thought was a weapon i'm sure he didn't give him time to take aim. depending on the distance from one another geozim could have had time to pull his weapon (not take aim) and trayvon was close enough to immediately tackle him. what dee dee says gives credence to this scenario. a short verbal exchange then immediate rustling noises.

Trayvon may have found it and tried to get it out himself but decided it was out of reach.

why would you feel the gun might have been out of reach to trayvon but accessible to geozim?

There won't be a plea bargain in the middle. At least not one that anyone would see as justice.

i think 'voluntary' manslaughter would be justice.

keeping it short today... I think we've about hashed the speculation to death

why would you feel the gun might have been out of reach to trayvon but accessible to geozim?

body position mainly, presuming the gun was in the waistband. Easier to reach down ones own pants than the person one are sitting on.

i think 'voluntary' manslaughter would be justice.

I don't think that is in the cards in a plea bargain. I also don't think it will be an option for the jury, see Casey Anthony case. I don't see any degree of murder, based on FL statutes. I can't find specifics in FL Statutes on 'types' of manslaughter. Feel free to cite one if you care to.

As I stated before, in different words, George will either go free or get 25 to life. It won't matter what they call it if they find him guilty because of the 10-20-life law. Everyone is backed into a corner with no middle ground.

This is not directed at you Irene but the larger audience. George can't "man up" and plead out because he won't gain a thing due to that mandatory sentencing with no options to reduce sentencing. Even if the pope declared him a saint and the queen knighted him he would be required to serve out at least 25 years if sentenced.

Casey Anthony case was completely different. They could NOT prove Casey Anthony "killed" her child, so they couldn't lower the degree of guilt! In this case we "know" GZ " killed" Trayvon! Therefore a lower degree of murder can be considered.

Jo-An-4354969

Casey Anthony case was completely different. They could NOT prove Casey Anthony "killed" her child, so they couldn't lower the degree of guilt! In this case we "know" GZ " killed" Trayvon! Therefore a lower degree of murder can be considered.

I agree the DA/State royally screwed the pooch on CA. It was still a HOMICIDE trial. The jury could have found a lessor degree of crime, other than the counts of fibbing to authorities. Just like in Georges case. I think the Jury will end up hopelessly deadlocked.

Are you still calling George a murderer? Just trying to get your position correct.

Of course GZ is a murderer.

body position mainly, presuming the gun was in the waistband. Easier to reach down ones own pants than the person one are sitting on. trust_verify #1.83

you think so? ok.

I don't see any degree of murder, based on FL statutes. I can't find specifics in FL Statutes on 'types' of manslaughter. Feel free to cite one if you care to.

i can't furnish any information about any terms of punishment in fl. i can't help but think if sentencing is as harsh in fl and the fact that corey hit geozim with such severe charges he'll probably walk. this seems to be a charge of appeasement.

i can't furnish any information about any terms of punishment in fl. i can't help but think if sentencing is as harsh in fl and the fact that corey hit geozim with such severe charges he'll probably walk. this seems to be a charge of appeasement.

on the "charge of appeasement" I agree 100%. Too bad Corey isn't the only FL DA that does that crap.

There should only be one fact that needs to be understood...zimmerman had no right to pursue martin at all..even was told not to, but he started the whole chain of events, and only he carried a weapon that night. Stand your ground doesnt mean chase and harrass.

Really though Jeff,

If staying in his car would have prevented this entire series of events, then isn't it Zimmermans fault for getting out of his car armed?

We can agree to that right?

Yes I can agree with you on that. The entire situation would have been avoided it appears had Zimmerman not gotten out of his car.

yes, and if Trayvon would have stayed home like he was suppose to be doing because he was grounded. If, if, if...GZ was not told to stop following TM, he was told it wasn't necessary. Any normal 17yr old who is being followed by a strange guy would more than likely run or hide, not try to confront the stalker or engage him in a fight. They both F****ed up and a young man is dead because of it. Maybe TM grabbed for the gun and during the struggle it went off...IDK I wasn't there...just like nobody on this post was there, but because it's a white guy with hispanic heritage (And our president is white with African heritage) killed a black kid, it's automatically a racial hate crime. If he had been a white kid, we wouldn't have even heard about it.

"Really though Jeff, If staying in his car would have prevented this entire series of events, then isn't it Zimmermans fault for getting out of his car armed? We can agree to that right?"

By that line of reasoning, anybody who got out of bed in the morning and wound up having to defend his life with a CCW firearm was at fault for getting up that morning.

Admit it. You don't want people to be allowed to defend themselves, and if they do defend themselves, you want to prosecute THEM, not the person who attacked them, just like it is in Merry Old England.

Any normal 17yr old who is being followed by a strange guy would more than likely run or hide, not try to confront the stalker or engage him in a fight.

I am glad you agree that the "stand your Ground" laws are NOT normal then. Trayvon is allowed to stand his ground and doesn't need to run or hide, that is the whole point. Glad you admit that GZ was the aggressor and should get NO protection from the law, as TM was standing his ground.

Admit it. You don't want people to be allowed to defend themselves, and if they do defend themselves, you want to prosecute THEM, not the person who attacked them

Ok, so Trayvon attacked George in his car? Or while George was walking down the street? I fully agree with protecting yourself, which is exactly what Trayvon was doing, why don't YOU agree with him being able to protect himself from a armed man who exited his car after following him?

Just like a corporation to spout pure baloney

can we quantify intermediate range? WTF, can MSN for the benefit of us ignorant ones, tell us what distance intermediate range means?

No I didn't say anything about syg, No normal TEENAGER would confront some guy who they thought meant them harm. They would run and hide, TM came back and attacked Zimmerman. Why? He had a phone, why didn't he call 911? Why didn't his "girlfriend" call 911 (in fact she didn't come forward until weeks later after the media got a hold of the story) Why didn't he call his dad? Why did a supposedly innocent, 17 yr old attack a complete stranger? And don't use the excuse that he was just defending himself, because that is BS...GZ may have been following him, but TM (according to the police report) started the confrontation, which them became a syg for GZ.

So getting out of bed and following someone with a loaded firearm are the same?

Zimmerman says he was assaulted, but Trayvon was shot at 'intermediate' range. This is an inconsistency - if Zimmerman were being assaulted and defended himself, the shot would have been fired from close range. If Zimmerman was assaulted, and then he shot Trayvon at an intermediate range, then the shooting was revenge. Or, more likely, Zimmerman shot Trayvon in cold blood at an intermediate distance, figured out that he could be found guilty of murder, and injured himself to manufacture evidence to corroborate his story.

For me, the real problem is not whether (as the reports keep reminding us) the shooting was racially motivated--it's the cavalier investigation. That's where race may be a factor. If Zimmerman dies, does anyone think Martin goes home?

People on the offensive always shoot from intermediate range.

No further questions, your Honor.

Sigh, intermediate range can be close to but not touching the body. Essentially what it means is that the gun was not pressed directly into the body. It is not a distant gunshot wound. It's not like Zimmerman was standing eight feet away when he shot Trayvon, which is what some people hope it means.

What's crazy is, even if Trayvon DID fight when he was confronted by Zimmerman, and DID break Zimmermans nose in the altercation, didn't Trayvon ALSO have a right to the "Stand your ground" law? He didn't have a firearm, and wasn't hurting anyone, or even doing anything illegal. He was walking back from the store and confronted by an angry, armed individual. Where's Trayvons right to "stand his ground" in all of this???

I don't have a dog in this fight, but in forensics, an intermediate-range wound is one in which the body is 'tattooed' with gunpowder grains. For a common handgun, intermediate-range begins at ~10mm away. In this case, the gun was probably fired from less than 3 feet away.

"By that line of reasoning, anybody who got out of bed in the morning and wound up having to defend his life with a CCW firearm was at fault for getting up that morning."

Anybody who was specifically told by the police not to get out of bed that morning, that is.

Never Stop Asking Questions-I'll ditto that! This case is becoming more convoluted. If Trayvon Martin only had one small abrasion on a finger, where did Zimmerman get his black eye(s), cuts on the back of the head, etc.? Trayvon Martin hands would have borne abrasions as well.

Trayvon was shot from 'intermediate-range' which indicates that he was shot at a distance of 8" to 3.5 feet from Zimmerman.

Blessings to Trayvon Martin and his loved ones.

It seems this "Stand your ground" law only applies to firearms. If I am following you, and you stand your ground by stopping and confronting me, then if you smash me in the face with your fist, then you are guilty of assault and battery.

But if you stand your ground by stopping and confronting me, then if I shoot you, then it is self-defense by me on my word alone, with no questions allowed.

Is this the way it works?

is there a definition of distance of "intermediate" range? Does intermediate range change the stand your ground law in effect with a broken nose? Nope, a defense lawyers dream come true.........

Here we go again. MSN trying to stir the pot with the phrase "intermediate range". Of course MSN offers no insight into what defines "intermediate range". Therefore allowing for this madness to continue. And sadly enough I see the morons are out in MASS refusing to see the truth in what happened that night. Pathetic.

As others have noted already; Trayvon had gun powder residue on him...proof that he was VERY close to GZ.

Here is another news source quote which offers info MSN can't seem to provide......

The reports also noted the fatal wound's surrounded by a two-by-two inch pattern called stippling, caused by gunpower burns. It suggests Zimmerman fired inches away from the teenager.

Personally I have never started a fight not even a verbal confrontation during my younger years but I also never ran away from a confrontation even as an adult. I can assure everyone that if I were confronted by a stranger on a dark rainy night (hell even if it were clear) I would have serious problems with it BECAUSE I would be afraid I'm sure and would be ready to fight.

I get SO tired of the idiot press TRYING, oh, so hard, to make this into a black/white thing, trying to call GZ a "white" Hispanic, simply to stir up more racial problems and hate than already exist in this case. You darn sure don't hear them calling their messiah, Barack Hussein Obama a white-black, now, do you? Even though he had a white hrandmother. Yet another pathetic example of liberal slants in our news.

follow me, stalk me, I will f' u up. U best produce a badge or good reason when I turn from the stalked to the defender against my stalker and yes offensive since the stalker started the inevitable. The stand your ground law is meant for you to defend your person and property in defence, not in attacks when you wannabe what you are not. Zimmerwannabe was told by those he wannabe to not do anything, but his wannabe spirit, arrogance, made him act in a wannabe matter which resulted in a death of juvenile. Our tax dollars go to paid proffesionals to deal with these matters, not to some wannabes who disregard instructions given to him by those whom he wants to be. Like I said trail me on a walk from the convience store home and see what I do to you, and I wonder if this stand your ground law defends me, otherwise a guy trailing me to mug me has a defence set to defend him by law, because I will revert to offensive mode once I discover my person is in danger by an idiot stalking and following me. My safety, my lfe, is now a matter. I am the defender, not the idiot.

Ripped from the internets...

"Contact wound - The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting, Close Range - The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting, Intermediate Range - The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away"

Intermediate range shots will leave burn marks on flesh, due to propellant that isn't burned during firing.

From that information, it means the muzzle of the gun could have been as little as 8 inches away from Martin. That is about a hand length. That is certainly not outside the realm of possibility in a situation where you are getting pounded on the ground by somebody straddling over you.

Tossing out emotions, the limited evidence the public has still points to Zimmerman shooting Martin while Martin was on top of him beating him up. Remember, there is a witness who claimed to have seen Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him.

It still doesn't prove if this is murder or self defense, but anybody jumping on the intermediate comment and drawing conclusions is making the type of mistake they likely made when the 911 tape was edited to make it sound like Zimmerman was acting blatantly racist on the call.

Hopefully justice is served, whatever that justice may be. I personally feel that even if the current trial fails to result in his conviction, the federal government will do whatever it can to nail him to a cross later.

Patterns of Tissue Injury

Classification

One of the commonest determinations of the forensic pathologist is the range
of fire. Gunshot wounds are typically classified as:

1. Contact
2. Intermediate range
3. Distant range

Contact wounds characteristically have soot on the outside of the skin, and
muzzle imprint, or laceration of the skin from effects of gases. Contact wounds
of airguns usually lack these features (Cohle et al, 1987). Intermediate, or
close-range, wounds may show a wide zone of powder stippling, but lack a muzzle
imprint and laceration. The area of powder stippling will depend upon the
distance from the muzzle.

Distant range wounds are lacking powder stippling and usually exhibit a hole
roughly the caliber of the projectile fired.

You guys that say that Zimmerman instigated it because he followed Martin have it all wrong. He was doing something completely legal. So you say that because the fight/shooting happened after he was doing something legal, that he is responsible?

What about Martin? If he had not gone out for a tea and skittles, then Zimmerman would not have seen him, and followed him. So Martin instigated the whole thing by getting hungry.

What it really comes down to is what happened when they met up. Sounds like from the evidence that Martin was giving Zimmerman a beat down and Zimmerman defended himself.

As I recall the reason zimmerman was patrolling was because of eight burglaries in a short period of time. Have they stopped?

Yes, there is a definition of "intermediate range"--it means that the weapon was close enough to the person that there are "peppering" marks on the skin. This goes from contact (pressed against the skin), to near contact (just a bit away), to intermediate (close enough that some of the gunpowder, I guess, burns the skin), to distance (where there are no burns but just an entry wound).

This means that it isn't likely that Martin was directly in contact with Zimmerman when the shot was fired. Remember that a gun has a certain length, and that Martin wasn't shot in the legs, but in the chest. If these people are struggling with one another, then it's going to be kind of hard to get that gun out, point it in the right direction, and shoot it with enough distance between the muzzle and the other person's chest that it would be at "intermediate" range.

The issue will be the angle of entry--if the angle of entry was kind of upwards, then it is possible that Zimmerman was on the ground, angling the gun upwards towards Martin's chest as Martin was above him. Of course, this would be the same if Martin was on the ground and Zimmerman were close and at an angle. But, yes, a distance wound would have told us a lot more than an intermediate one does--it's pretty easy to put a gun close to someone while intentionally killing them, but harder to be killing someone by "accident" or "in the heat of the moment" if it is further away.

zimmerwannabe place himself in this position messing with an innocent person who also has the right to defend himself, mr jim in aburn. You wanna try stalking me?

Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

The official report is objective and states the facts.

Because Zimmerman pursued Trayvon Martin, of course he shot and killed this child at a close range.

If Zimmerman had followed the police dispatcher's orders not to follow Trayvon, young Martin would be alive today. Zimmerman is a self-appointed vigilante who snuffed out an innocent life. George Zimmerman should be shipped off to prison and remain there, for the rest of his life!

Sounds as though everyone there at the scene of the killing wanted to jump bad. Not always a good call and both have payed and Zimmerman will continue to pay for this moment of insanity for the rest of his life.

bean; add to that that nobody fires a gun while it is pressed up against their own body - they hold it out at arms length - so that adds another two feet of separation between the two - now we are at three feet or more from the two being in direct contact. The bigger the spray - the farther the distance was between them - we don't know the circumference of the spray.

I love how gun advocates exploit George Zimmerman - they could care less about George - it's their own right to bare arms that is making them speculate so much.

Zimmerman = works in the Insurance industry = knows how to make a false claim look plausible.

Here are some questions. Zimmerman waited til the next day to see his family physician. His family physician.

The broken nose was some little bone, can't remember the exact phrasing. Swelling, black eyes, cuts on his scalp.

Trayvon Martin only had one little abrasion just under the knuckle of his left ring finger.

So the questions are: How could Trayvon Martin have hit Zimmerman that hard to do that much damage and only have that 1/4 inch sized mark on his left ring finger? Did Trayvon Martin fall on Zimmerman when he was shot, knocking Zimmerman to the ground, where Zimmerman might have hit the ground and incurred those scalp abrasions? If Trayvon Martin fell on him, could he have fallen so quickly that maybe his head contacted Zimmerman's nose to cause the swelling? Or did Trayvon Martin, AFTER being shot, lunge at Zimmerman and create that damage - falling, stumbling, into Zimmerman?

And did Trayvon Martin feel threatened after he realized some older dude was following him and then confronted him? Was Trayvon Martin actually defending HIMSELF against a man whose intentions he didn't know what they were?

George Zimmerman was told in his emergency call NOT TO FOLLOW Trayvon Martin.

The intermediate distance noted above, 8 inches to 3.5 feet, casts some doubt as to whether or not Trayvon actually attacked Zimmerman first or after being shot, and if I were on that jury, I'd want definitive, exact answers and explanations about the damage recorded by Zimmerman's' FAMILY physician.

I'd also want to know if those injuries were incurred during the actual confrontation or if Zimmerman had someone do all that to him later and then went to the doctor. I'd want definitive proof.

Conservatives cut all the funds that police once had available - then wonder why crimes can't be investigated thoroughly. Don't cry when crime finds your house - maybe you should listen to your paranoia and quit your job and have all of your food delivered, that way you can defend your home 24/7...

@richard, not to mince words. i wouldnt stalk you, neither did zimm stalk martin. stalking requires a history between the two. i would follow you though, under the right circumstances....see my response to you in the above thread to see how it turns out for you. the way it turns out is a direct result of your actions, not mine. i see you are on martins side, thats cool, just giving you the counter argument. question, does it matter to you who initiated the first physical contact?

Richard, any citizen has a right to watch a suspicious stranger in his neighborhood with a history of breakins. Zimmerman did what he was supposed to do, he called the police. It appears that Trayvon, the six foot child objected violently. Trayon's mistake was to attack a legally armed citizen who was returning to his home from Target. Zimmerman was lawfully carrying a weapon with a valid permit. Jessee and Simpleton jumped the gun again, it is beginning to become clearer. Both have a history of rousting up a charge of racism, and being dead wrong.

If I got out of my car every time I seen someone wearing a hoodie who looks suspicious, I wouldn't get very far.

Zimmerman was a wanna be cop but he was not a cop!

I don't care if one was purple and the other boehner orange!

Whomever basis themselves via any one news co. Is a whore just like those who sell the news. I trust no man or woman!
Now mix them with money and all they see is green, you are nothing but a $ sign. Click here!

follow me then, I will react defensively the same. Define defence and offence, so I can be clear how an offensive action is called defensive? Again follow me, I can only presume you looking to harm me, in defence I will become offensive to defend myself. Now you wanna follow me ?

Kidding right? White male of hispanic heritage? So blatant to try to make it white on black crime..

I believe a hispanic male with a white jewish last name? Lots of areas have neighborhood watch programs,if I were on the watch that nite I probably would step out to see what direction the person was going so I could let the officers know, to many times you call about a suspicious person and by the time the police would get there they are gone, and your neighbor is robbed. When it happened Gearge was told not to follow and I believe he was going back to his vehicle? And people remember Zimmerman had grass on his back as was noted in the original police report

.

Stand your ground, self defense, sh*tty parenting, responsibility for ones actions, CASE CLOSED. Accept it, deal with it, if you can't seek couseling.....

The article stated, "found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp."

No one will covict Zimmerman! Self Defense according to Florida Law

WHat ppl are failing to realize is, just because its not ILLEGAL to follow someone, doesnt mean someone automatically has the RIGHT to stop you and question you walking down the st. Zimmerman was NOT doing his job, Neighborhood watch protocol and police instruction is NEVER TO CONFRONT. Just because you wont get arrested everytime for breaking that protocol doesnt mean you have a RIGHT to do it. He had no RIGHT to follow Trayvon, No RIGHT to Stalk him, NO RIGHT to question him, and ask him what he was doing around there.

Beyond this there is NO evidence to state WHO started the fight. We have NO idea if Tray punched him simply for questioning him. We have NO idea if Zimmerman grabbed him in an attempt to detain him. There is NO Evidence to suggest Zimmerman was innocently walking back to his car, and Tray jumped him out of the blue. (they were too FAR away from the vehicle). Tray has one abrasion on one ring finger, so where are the other bruises resulting from causing so much damage. He's supposed to have all those cuts, black eyes, and broken noses, and didnt go to the hospital right away???

NONE of this would have happened if Zimmerman followed Neighborhood watch protocol, and listened to the dispatcher. You cant CONFRONT someone, then claim self defense if they felt threatened and defended themselves. The man followed him for BLOCKS, got out of his car, and followed him down a dark alley on the side of the house to the back of the dwellings, got in close to him, and confronted him... Why is Trayvon not allowed to use Self defense here?

And since WHEN is it ok, to get an ass whipping with fist from one person, then you get to respond with a gun???

Skeptic: Or did Zimmerman have someone inflict the damage for a alibi ???

Based on the available evidence there is but a single logical conclusion. The truth was tossed out the window before midnight of that fateful day. All that has transpired since is to bury the truth beneath ever increasing layers of BS.

Florida prosecutors finally did the right thing and charged George Zimmerman with blood money 4-degree murder.

Don't miss this one

stumbleupon.com/su/6fZWxC/

Folks arguing 'what if' or hind sight logic solves nothing. If Zimmerman had not been toting a gun, had not gotten out of his vehicle and followed Trayvon, or if Trayvon had just kept walking and had not confronted and assaulted a man with a gun, we would not be talking about it.

Why not let the case play itself out and let the chips fall where they may, this will happen again, somewhere, in some fashion again tomarrow and life will go on.

@richard, physical contact. who swung the first punch? by definition, the receiver of the first punch is the defender. i know you are basing your conclusions on emotion instead of the law, but this is just a matter of law.

-toting a gun (as some put it lol) is not illegal

-concealing it? not illegal

-following someone. not illegal.

-talking to the police to describe what is going on and why you are following someone? good idea.

-talking to each other? not illegal.

-yelling, screaming at each other? not illegal.

-committing assault? illegal, self defense allowed.

so really, who swung first? if zimmerman did, he should not be found guilty of murder-2, he should be found guilty of murder-1 and either fry or spend his life in jail. if martin swung first, then (and here is the hard part for you all to accept) he got what was coming to him.

we are a nation of laws, obama, sharpton, jackson, et al should have left race out of this, because it wasnt about race to begin with. i know the emotional left doesnt believe that, but obamas doj already believes that.

follow me then, I will react defensively the same. Define defence and offence, so I can be clear how an offensive action is called defensive? Again follow me, I can only presume you looking to harm me, in defence I will become offensive to defend myself. Now you wanna follow me ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB75YR66xEM

Lol. That's the attitude that made Trayvon famous. Do us a favor and have "Kilroy was here" Tattooed on your forehead so we'll all know that it's you, when you end up on a slab with intermediate bullet wounds.

Scar - that was exactly what I was getting at. His father was a judge. Zimmerman has had some clues here and there, no doubt. And he didn't have any blood or obvious cuts on his head in that police video taken 31 minutes after he shot Trayvon and arrived at the police station. He was holding his head down a lot. Someone with a bloody or broken nose doesn't do that. The blood would start running again. His hands were behind his back and no one was applying pressure right under the nose to stop a nosebleed.

I hope once Zimmerman is found innocent and set free that any of those in the Black community that feel the need to riot (a cover for out and out theft/stealing and grabbing jeans and electronics) over the injustice of it all will feel the wrath of the police/troops. If I were in power mayor etc and on the day of the verdict I would have the National Guard and Police on high alert with orders to shoot to kill any of those that feel the 'need' to riot. Hey protest all you want, rally against the verdict but if it turns into a riot I would have not problem at all with issuing a shoot to kill order to the NG or Police. I don't give a sh!t if it's the Black community, White community or any other community. Anything such thing as a riot affects everyone and costs everyone...in money, time, blood and the break down of law. As I said protest all you want, yell all you want once the first act of rioting takes place it must be slpped doen and slapped down hard.

OK, so what if Martin wasn't a kid coming home from a store with candy, but a thug, a rapist, a burglar scoping the place...if Zimmerman saw him, should he have stayed in his car? considering that he's the neighborhood watch patrol and all...we all now know NOW that Martin was a 17 year old kid...but Zimmerman didn't know that at that time...there are lots of details that aren't know to us...and we shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions ... i'm not blaming one or the other...i'll wait until trial is done, but all you 'judges and executioners' need to calm down a bit...

natawa, the prosecutor brought the charges only to settle down the rioters for a while. I believe that no jury in the world would convict Zimmerman based on the facts we have read. At least it gives some time, like a year, for this to settle down. I also think that exactly what happened will never be determined. Thusly, Zimmerman will be a free man. I will be surprised if this case even goes to trial.

skeptic-227981

And he didn't have any blood or obvious cuts on his head in that police video taken 31 minutes after he shot Trayvon and arrived at the police station.

Yet, in the packet of evidence released by the prosecutor, it shows the fire department treated Zimmerman (while he was still in handcuffs) at the scene for bleeding from both the front and back of his head and for his bloody nose. It was only after the bleeding was stopped that Zimmerman was taken to the police station.

Yes indeed. The father jumped into his home teleporter and arrived at the scene just before the police and emergency workers arrived.

His father has been orchestrating his defense since the beginning.

Really? And you wouldn't do it for your kid? If it was your kid, you would be doing that and more. Hell, we all would. That's what we do - we protect our kids and help them when they are in/get in trouble. So give it up. It's a lame argument

At least his father didn't trademark his name!

...and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have been orchestrating the prosecution since the beginning.

i suppose Travyon's parents haven't done everything in their power to get Zimmerman? Are you kidding? Who is constantly on TV, even Mother's Day? Have only heard of Zimmerman's father being interviewed one time compared to massive Turner pictures, interviews, etc. Be fair or go home! Don't want you on the playground if you can't play fair!!

Don't forget NBC, CNN, and CBS, markwonder. They deserve their share of the "credit" too.

Atom, no I wouldn't. Who did what aside and who is guilty I don't know, but that isn't a lame argument. No, if my child did something I wouldn't be changing evidence or hiding it. Yes, I would support him, but I wouldn't lie, cheat, steal, or break the law for him. Sorry, but isn't that part of modeling morals for them and teaching them to not be accountable?

Yes, you help. No, you don't do any of the above for them and if they do something wrong there are consequences. Not saying what happened that day since I don't know, but no, not all parents would do that.

ram

Anywhere in my post did I say to do anything illegal? or even remotely illegal?

Has there been ANY evidence of his father lying, cheating, stealing or breaking the law? Is there ANY evidence that his father changing evidence or stealing it? If his father called the police about his son, is that breaking the law? Did he call in some favors to make sure his son didn't get put in jail (presumed innocent, remember) is that breaking the law? All of you are assuming you know the father's character because he is a judge! Well if he is a judge, then he MUST be the kind of parent that would lie, cheat, steal, break the law, change evidence, steal evidence! You don't think the dad would know that if he tried that, it wouldn't be found out? He is an retired officer of the court. He knows the law and what can happen to him if he did any of the things you point out. And if Zimmerman's dad had ANY pull, don't you think he would have been at the police station meeting with his son, getting a lawyer, hell being in the room during the interview (which went on for hours acccording to the report) or maybe even waiting outside when the police brought his son in? Smile you're on Candid Camera! No nothing shown, nothing reported but let's condemn the father anyways.

Marty - maybe this will help you:

Determining the Distance of the Shooter from the Victim

: classifications include contact, near-contact, intermediate, and distant wounds.

In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing. This type of wound is also characterized by numerous reddish-brown to orange-red lesions around the entrance to the wound.

Source: Mahoney Criminal Defense Group:

I agree - no one here - was there - Hopefully the criminal justice system will get it right. But, now - where to find a fair and impartial jury?

Thank you jet. So sick of the reverse racism that it's okay to perpetuate that white's are racist and the worst people on the planet. But you can't say that any other ethnicity is racist..far more white people are killed by blacks than the other way around. Those are the facts..listening to NPR the other day and a black professor from Columbia University Aubrey douche bag just loudly proclaims that white Christians are the most racist people on the earth...what an A Hole. And Al and Jesse are the worst charlatans of all just like Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, and Cleflo Dollar(right! like that's his real name) they use religion to make money...can you say skank.

jet7...(#3.10)...A soldier newly stationed at MacDill Air Force Base, near Tampa was brutally beaten by 4 thugs in Trademarked Trayvon hoodies and baggie pants when his car broke down "in the Wrong Neighborhood"...The video caught on a home security camera is tough to watch, you can practically feel every blow and kick....First punch comes out of nowhere and then the posse joins in.....They couldn't have cared less if the kicks to his head had killed him....they got his wallet and cell phone.....and went on their merry way.

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=187391

@ Renee - Northern CA

With this type of evidence I'm hoping the courts stop wasting tax payers money and through the case out. There is no proof it went down any other way than what Zimmerman has stated.

@ jet7

They will be there as soon as these dirt bags are apprehended. Let's please not tread on their civil liberties as they did their victim.

Let's be real clear about this....The decision to Charge Zimmerman was purely political....it pushes the whole thing past the summer ( Don't forget, RNC Convention is in Tampa, not far from Sanford,FL)....There are going to be demonstrations galore and the last thing they needed was Trayvon protestors adding to the friction.....I'de be very surprized if anything but dribbs and drabs about this case come out before the election in November....

Determining the Distance of the Shooter from the Victim

: classifications include contact, near-contact, intermediate, and distant wounds.

In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing.

Source: Mahoney Criminal Defense Group:

renee northern ca #3.9 may 16, 2012

if trayvon was sitting was on geozim's chest and they were wrestling over the gun one would think the shot would have been at least in the near contact range.

am is wrong?

this is nothing more than some punk kid who thought he could assault someone and get away with it and got shot for his trouble.this just may make the next one to think twice before he does somrthing stupid!!!!

"punk kid who thought he could assault someone and get away with it"... Apparently, pursuing someone after given specific instructions not to by authorities, has nothing to do with Zimmerman's motives... So lets just overlook that minor detail... But Martin's the aggressor? RIGHT!!

If Zimmerman had STAYED IN HIS VEHICLE like he was told to do, nothing would have happened. I find it odd that Zimmerman supposedly had all these injuries and Martin had one extremely small abrasion on his knuckle. One would think he would have a lot more damage to his hand than that if he had really beat on Zimmerman that badly. Of course, if someone was following me, asking me questions they had no business asking, I might have beat him up too.

1/4" abrasion BELOW his knuckle!!!

At least his father didn't trademark his name!

You'd do the same in order to have legal power against those using your dead child's name without permission to make money and bogus 'charity funds'....

As a civilian, Zimmerman had no right to hinder or prohibit the free-movement of an individual who is not in commission of a crime. If Zimmerman as pursuer found Martin again, Martin would have had every right to stand his ground if he perceived that Zimmerman was a reasonable threat. A stranger, chasing you, not identifying himself, who seems to be pretty wired and utterly convinced that you are 'up to no good' - is pretty damn threatening if you ask me.

The 911 call minutes before the incident ends with Martin telling the dispatcher he lost Martin and to have the police call his cell-phone when they arrive - disregarding the dispatcher's suggestion to wait by his truck and meet the police there. Why would he do that? - Obviously because he wanted to continue looking for Martin. "These punks always get away"

The whole Martin coming back like some ninja to jump Zimmerman after he already lost him thing is just.... weird. Doesn't pass the sniff test. I think Zimmerman is hiding some details of the confrontation to make himself sound more innocent than he actually is.

Personally, I think Zimmerman found Martin again - Martin decided not to take off running this time - a confrontation occured which resulted in a fight and when Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman, Zimmerman shot. It's possible Martin attacked first, it's possible Zimmerman tried to lay hands on Martin. Either way, retaliating against what appears to be a hostile pursuer is perfectly legitimate.



One would think he would have a lot more damage to his hand than that if he had really beat on Zimmerman that badly.

True enough - just a few punches will tear the skin of your knuckles up way more than just 1 small abrasion on 1 finger on the left hand. But who knows how the fight went down, it's possible he didnt have to use his fists much because his pursuer when down like a sack of potatoes - too bad the weakling coward had to bring his gun to a fist fight like some chump.

Someone please tell me if you would have time to call 911 when you have some stranger pursuing you with a gun and you're running for your life? It kills me that people have the nerve to blame Trayvon for not calling 911 to report he was being pursued. Maybe if he had the opportunity to get to a safe spot to call he would have. I'm sure at the time he was in survival mode.

Allergic2BS

Someone please tell me if you would have time to call 911 when you have some stranger pursuing you with a gun and you're running for your life?

George was on the phone for over 4 minutes with the dispatcher. Trayvon and DeeDee had been speaking and hung up. Trayvon then chose to call DeeDee again instead of his father or 9-1-1 so the answer is YES he had PLENTY of time since he had time to converse with his girlfriend.

It kills me that people have the nerve to blame Trayvon for not calling 911 to report he was being pursued.

you just asked to be told one would have time to call 9-1-1 and he obviously had time to call his girlfriend and complain he was being followed. What sort of flowers would you like since it kills you?

Maybe if he had the opportunity to get to a safe spot to call he would have. I'm sure at the time he was in survival mode.

Safe spot? He called his girl. He had out run George and lost him. He was closer to where he was staying than he was to Georges truck by time George reached where he would have last been seen. He could have called 9-1-1 when he was standing under the clubhouse and first spotted George "following" him. 9-1-1/father/girlfriend? I'll even argue calling his father was the wiser move of the three. 9-1-1 police will be there eventually, father was less than 5 minutes, girlfriend was not going to get there EVER.

survival mode or testosterone driven show-off for his girl?

Sayitlikeitis , you apparently have never been Robbed , Burglarized or been in a neighborhood that has a "Neighborhood Watch" I listen to you and some of these other idiots that sit in their homes and expect the Police to always protect them, You are simply "Sheep" waiting for someone to kill you or take what belongs to you, When they do you will develop deep seated hatred for Thugs that walk it and talk it, all this boy had to do is stop and talk, thats all, As a retired Chief of Police i can tell you that there should be justice, and there should be a Grand Jury Hearing , but they should decide whether charges are warranted, Not you , or any of the LYing Media that have Created a Racial Divide with this, what would you do if you were walking in an upscale neighborhood and faced a member of the Neighborhood Watch ? Would you face him and fight him? would you say thanks for taking care of my Dads neighborhood, I live here ? A or B? Fools wade in and it appears like this young man decided he should beat this guy for following him, It didnt have to be that way and unless you are a thug you know that.

Those injuries are NOT consistant with a single small cut on one hand. Someone else had to have caused those injuries after Zimmerman murdered this kid. I've been in many fights and was an EMT for 3 years and can say those previous sentences as a fact. It really is too bad Zimmerman will get off since I cannot see anyway in Florida that he will be convicted. It will end in a mistrial and the prosecutor will refuse to retry.

I wear a ring. If I were to punch someone repeatedly, the ring would cause a cut in my finger. Just how do you think it got there? Oh, I guess when George crushed his nose against it to provoke Trayvon.

That definitely shows Trayvon hit something or someone with his fist and you can't get around that.

Ugh, Say it like it is, you're being untruthful here. Zimmerman never said, "He's definitely on drugs or something. Either you haven't bothered reading the facts or you're just trying to sway people. Which is it?

The fact of the matter is, intermediate distance is the same as close range. Why didn't the media write that instead of, once again, trying to mis-lead the public?

Not only did the wound show close range but it's consistent with Zimmerman's claim. Martin's hand wound would also consistent. Fed up, it wasn't a bruise. It was an abrasion. Entirely different when viewing patterns of injury. The abrasion could be consistent with Zimmerman's claim.

As to his cut head & broken nose, bleeding/swelling would be seen first, but bruising can take a day or two to show. Back pain as well. I should know. I've cared for enough patients over the years.

I've seen the photos taken at the police station online. They were very poor quality and not up close enough. Even then, they showed laceration/bleeding.

You may prefer to judge by those photos, but, as a medical professional, I certainly wouldn't. Besides, you haven't seen the medical documentation either.

Just because he was seen by a family physician means didley squat in the real world. All physicians are required to follow the same medical/legal standards when charting. I seriously doubt this M.D. would willingly risk his license. For what reason?

You & others really need to get off the old, His Dad is a judge, band wagon. Too silly for words!

What all you people seem to forget is that an unarmed child went to the store to buy some skittles and iced tea. He was doing nothing more than walking home with his hoodie up since it had started to rain slightly and talking on his phone. ( Here is where all the white people need to substitute their teenager or teenage family member for Martin). Some strange man with no identification starts following you. You try to get away, but he follows you. The man then gets out of his car and starts confronting you. Most kids are taught to fight a stranger and get away. Why was it ok for Zimmerman to shoot this boy. He was never doing anything threatening. Unfortunately, in Florida because of our crazy laws that doesn't seem to matter so this guy will probably get off.

Parenthetically, for all the deniers out there, I am white and this is not an isolated incident down here. I live near Sanford and people in my subdivision were complaining (ironically at the same time) about a teenager that was walking to school with his hoodie up in the morning. (Non-Floridians - school starts for high schoolers at 7:30am and many kids don't have true winter coats but use heavy hoodies as their winter apparel.) The difference one of our neighborhood watch individuals just observed where the kid went (as you are supposed to do) and found that he went to the bus stop. No one took out a gun and introduced that into the equation.

Karen - Zimmerman was the aggressor the instant he got out of his car.

Getting out of a car doesn't make you an aggressor. Neither does it make you guilty because you conceal carry. None of these will stand up in court. These are all your legal rights.

As a civilian, Zimmerman had no right to hinder or prohibit the free-movement of an individual who is not in commission of a crime. If Zimmerman as pursuer found Martin again, Martin would have had every right to stand his ground if he perceived that Zimmerman was a reasonable threat. A stranger, chasing you, not identifying himself, who seems to be pretty wired and utterly convinced that you are 'up to no good' - is pretty damn threatening if you ask me.

Getting out of a car doesn't make you an aggressor. Neither does it make you guilty because you conceal carry. None of these will stand up in court. These are all your legal rights.

Pursuing someone does make you the aggressor though.

And doing so while armed just makes you stupid.

For those of you who don't know, there are many many caucasian hispanics. You know, white folk whose native language is Spanish? All "hispanics" are not mestizos. Turns out Zimmerman's mom is a Peruvian mixture....maybe some white, indian, african? Peruvian.

Sharpton isn't on trial here, the Media isn't on trial here, 'Libruls' aren't on trial here.

It seems a lot of people are defending Zimmerman less because of the actual facts of the case, and more because they hate the above .

A totally new racial classification has been created from this incident

Totally new? Lol. Not really.

Anybody else notice that msnbc "conveniently" forgot to include the definition of "intermediate range"?

From another news source:

Trayvon Martin was killed by a single gunshot fired from an "intermediate range"—evidence suggests just inches away from the skin—according to an autopsy report reviewed by NBC.

And another source:

In intermediate-range wounds, the muzzle is held away from the skin but close enough that it still produces powder tattooing.

Of course msnbc wouldn't want to include this type of info since it wouldn't support their biased agenda.

Anybody else notice that msnbc "conveniently" forgot to include the definition of "intermediate range"?

Well, if people are too dumb to bother looking it up - their opinions really don't matter much to me anyway.

seems to me tray and z man both had the right to stand thier growned z man was stocking tray with a gun out. tray had a right to stand up to him. but you people seem to think only white people have that right, the law is for whites only. and why was z man not taken to the er. if he had a broken nose. if some guy strang guy with a gun was following me i would run to i can see how an ex cop can tell people to stop for anybody that stops you. z ma could have been a john wain gaysy. or garry disin. jest looking for a victum. i would run and fight too.

If you can show me on the census form where "white Hispanic" is listed as a racial category, then I will believe you.

Show me where HISPANIC is on the census? I guess you just made up that racial classification then, right? lol...

Here, to make it easy for you - I quoted the racial classifications on the US Census:

White – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa.

Black or African American – A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa.

American Indian or Alaska Native – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment.

Asian – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam.

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander – A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands.

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-02.pdf

clears things up just a bit (clear as the government gets at least)

Hispanic is NOT a race but rather an origin.

Really,

Methinks not. Caucasian is race. Hispanic is ethnicity. There are many of the caucasian race whose ethnicity is hispanic. You know, kinda like saying there is a white or green building, or a black or brown car. You can certainly use one term to qualify another. At least in my english you can.

Would it have suited you better if I had said, hispanic caucasian?

Hispanic is NOT a race but rather an origin.

Basically, yep. Hispanic can cover all sorts of racial categories and mixes, well any - to be honest. Being that the word is derived from Hispaniola (the first Spanish colonies in the new world). It was just a couple islands technically, but the word is being used today to cover pretty much all people of Spanish-speaking origins that were part of the New World colonization regardless of race.

It depends largely on how someone identifies themselves culturally, not so much racially. The Spanish colonies were truly a melting pot - there were a lot of Spanish men, and not a lot of Spanish women - so there was all sorts of racial mixing. Being that as it may, Hispanic could very well end up one day becoming a 'race' in itself - because race is so arbitrary of a classification and over generations certain classifications become obsolete in some areas - like in the Americas - where it's becoming increasingly less common for people to be purely white, black, native, or whatever.

Race is a strange way to classify people because it's entirely fluid and totally dependent on a small snapshot in time. When humans began moving out of Africa and splitting up into more isolated pockets - sure we may look different, but we all came from the same place. Take any racial classification and stretch it back far enough into the past include all our ancestry and you just basically end up with 1 race - human.

mike-441148

Sayitlikeitis , you apparently have never been Robbed , Burglarized or been in a neighborhood that has a "Neighborhood Watch" I listen to you and some of these other idiots that sit in their homes and expect the Police to always protect them, You are simply "Sheep" waiting for someone to kill you or take what belongs to you, When they do you will develop deep seated hatred for Thugs that walk it and talk it, all this boy had to do is stop and talk, thats all, As a retired Chief of Police i can tell you that there should be justice, and there should be a Grand Jury Hearing , but they should decide whether charges are warranted, Not you , or any of the LYing Media that have Created a Racial Divide with this, what would you do if you were walking in an upscale neighborhood and faced a member of the Neighborhood Watch ? Would you face him and fight him? would you say thanks for taking care of my Dads neighborhood, I live here ? A or B? Fools wade in and it appears like this young man decided he should beat this guy for following him, It didnt have to be that way and unless you are a thug you know that.

It actually sounds like u have a deep seated hatred which can cloud your judgement of people u don't know. Let's assume the worst and martin was a thug, most people including thugs do not beat people for no reason. If martin beat zimmerman as u believe he may have, zimmerman should have picked up on the clues that martin was becoming agitated or was agitated. U simply do not stir the pot more when it's boiling. He should've backed off and waited for the police. Instead he sees this complete stranger agitated who may have asked him why are u following me. Zimmerman did not pick up on the cues of anger or ignored them. More than likely martin probably said just f*ing leave me alone man and zimmerman did not and that may have led to an altercation. Bottom line, zimmerman had an opportunity to avoid a confrontation and he didn't.

Zimmerman's father was Jewish, his mother was Hispanic. Does that make him white?

rkb5555

"More than likely martin probably said just f*ing leave me alone man and zimmerman did not and that may have led to an altercation. Bottom line, zimmerman had an opportunity to avoid a confrontation and he didn't."

How about this...

Bottom line,Martin had an opportunity to avoid a confrontation,but he didn't.

Since you were not there,and I was not there-either person COULD have avoided a confrontation-we don't know exactly what happened-that is going to be decided in the courts-NOT by the media-who already have Zimmerman painted as guilty,a racist,and the aggressor.

MSNBC continues to stir the pot by not clarifying what intermediate range means in the context used-it means close range-exactly as expected IF Zimmerman's account is factual-but once again-the media attempts to portray this as meaning Zimmerman is guilty.

Zimmerman's father was Jewish, his mother was Hispanic. Does that make him white?

Jewish nor Hispanic are races. White is a race. So it can. Many people of Hispanic origins identify themselves with either White or Native American race. Depending on his mother, being Peruvian, it's likely she's of White and Native ancestry.

His father, being Jewish - could harken back all the way to ancestry in the Middle East - which is considered either Asian or White in race. But, likely he is -mostly- European decent - so let's just say White.

So basically, if you want to go by these arbitrary classifications of race - Zimmerman is mostly White and some Native American, possibly even some black. Stretch it back further, and his Peruvian mother had Asian roots being that her Native ancestors' ancestors were from Asia... so he's White and Asian. But then again, stretch that back far enough - and he's African.... so is his White father, stretch his lineage back far enough and he's African too. We're all African.

Just another Pu55y with a gun. Scared of his own shadow and cannot take care of himself. I cannot believe that so many of you morons buy into this bull@!$%# gun culture. We are the laughing stock of the world.

The second amendment is a @!$%#ing joke. The intent was so states could stand up a militia to protect itself from the fed, not for everyday citizens to walk around and act tough because they have a gun on them.

He will be found guilty of murder because that is what this is. You cannot pursue someone and shoot them when they defend themselves just because you have a permit.

Bottom line,Martin had an opportunity to avoid a confrontation,but he didn't

Lol what? Martin was the one just walking down the street in the first place!. It was Zimmerman who initiated the whole thing from the beginning by going after Martin. Martin then RAN to avoid confrontation. Zimmerman then LOST him.... not on purpose, but lost him in pursuit (according to the 911 tapes).

Now if Martin actually did double-back (for some reason) to attack Zimmerman, he's in the fault. But I find that whole story and ridiculous movie-quality dialogue to be just downright fishy. It has 'gullible' written all over it.

According to the 911 tapes, Zimmerman before hanging up was instructed to wait for the police by his truck - he said to instead 'call him on his cell when they get there'... why? What was he going to do instead? Oh I dunno... maybe continue seeking out Martin? (another missed opportunity to avoid confrontation)

I'm sorry, but it was Zimmerman who brought confrontation down on Trayvon in the first place, and likely twice...

If you're going to go by that line of logic - you must apply the same standard to Zimmerman.

Larry, He was the agressor by just walking home huh? 911-- do not pursue Zim-- They always get away. Who always gets away? People that go to the store and walk home. This dude got exactly what he wanted a confrontation so he could use his gun. You people are defending a murderer. He got his ass kicked and got mad and shot someone.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57434757-504083/fla-woman-marissa-alexander-gets-20-years-for-warning-shot-did-she-stand-her-ground/

Black woman - sentenced to 20 years in prison for "Standing Her Ground" - no one was maimed, hurt, or killed in the incident.

This case is much bigger than George Zimmerman - whether he is white or non-white (I am black and think he is non-white). It is a case about SYSTEMIC RACISM - where because of his white judge father, and the fact that Martin was black, this whole thing was covered up. To the dispicable media response...White people have really circled the wagons here and added a lot of confusion to what is really the issue.

The issue is the APPLICATION OF LAWS in regards to certain people of color. George Zimmerman is on the "right" side of this issue simply because his father is a white southern judge - and he executed someone who is lower on the racist hierarchy than he is.

I would expect that George Zimmerman will be acquitted of all charges here.

Tek - no question there is a huge disparity in a way these two 'stand your ground' cases were treated. It is very troubling but I want to see more info on the Martin case before I make up my mind.

I hope that you guys that are defending Zimmerman don't end up in the black list of people like him. People who shot to kill first and ask questions might be influenced by the race of their oponents but in a pinch will shoot anyone regardless of sex, age or race.

Shuklack, there are plenty of maps out there that show where this occurred. The NY Times and www.wagist.com both have the whole thing timestamped out. From the time that Zimm hung up on the police, there is a 2 1/2 minute window till the start of the confrontation. From the spot of the fight, it's a 45-60 second WALK to where Trayvon was staying. It's a straight line. In fact, the spot where the fight occurred is only 15-20 seconds WALK from Zimm's car.

If Trayvon had simply kept going, he'd have been home. He had already lost Zimm, because Zimm is overweight. There is no footrace that Trayvon could lose.

Intermediate Range infer distance between the two. Close Range infer near. What is the most probable distance did the coroner stated Zimmerman fired his weapon? Intermediate Range clearly shows that Zimmerman was not being attacked at the time the weapon was fired. There was distance between the two. Zimmerman lead people to believe that he fired while being attacked and while the kid was banging his head against the ground.
The medical report written by Zimmerman's doctor the next day does not match recorded evidence on the police tape: Separately, a medical report on Martin’s alleged killer, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, prepared by his personal physician the day after Martin’s shooting in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp.
On the police tape; did anyone see two black eyes or a broken nose? Did anyone see any swelling hours later when the police let him go?

Tek,

So where are all the posts of outraged "stand your ground" advocates demanding justice for this woman who only fired a "warning shot"? Oh, I see, she is black. She got her justice. I guess Zimmerman didn't want to risk getting 20 years by firing a warning shot. Smart kid.

I just can't buy the "Zimmerman chased down Martin"arguement. From the time on the 911 tape that Zimmerman is told he doesn't need to follow Martin, and tells the operator that TM ran and he lost sight of him and Zimmerman stops pursuing, to when the 911 call ends is 80 seconds. Looking at the maps online of the areas in question, there is no way that a 6'2" 17 year old athlete Martin could not have been home, sitting on the couch eating his snacks and watching basketball telling his dad some weird guy chased him long before Zimmerman even hung up the phone. It also doesn't make sence that Martin felt threatened enough to feel the need to fight back, and again waited almost a minute and a half minimum for Zimmerman to get off of the phone before he was confronted? It just doesn't make sense, even in a straight out footrace I see no way that Zimmerman would have been in the physical condition to catch Martin at all, with a 80 second head start, only if the left out that he had rode a jet pack to confront Martin.

Thanks, thinker, I was thinking the same thing. Intermediate sounds like farther than a few inches. I think they purposely left that out, it's MSNBC's style.

I'm confused! What is the race of a person half black and half white like Obama? Can one just choose either?

Alfred/Skiddy, intermediate range just isn't point blank. It's anywhere from 6-8 inches to 1.5-3.5 feet. GSR will still hit the target but is more scattered.

As for the police tape, it's simply too grainy to see the scale of his injuries. You cannot say one way or the other whether it supports or contradicts his injuries.

As for that other case, another sad tale, but the circumstances are much different than this case.

Really,

I see you got 6 approvals for your post #4.17. LMAO

The illiterates on board here must think there is safety in numbers. Sorry guys, it just shows there are more illiterates on board is all. It does not change the fact that Really doesn't understand how to use his own language very well.

But that's OK. We all know that when we let emotions do our thinking instead of reasoning and logic we are prone to make such mistakes.

Really,

Zimmerman "white Hispanic"- According to Al Sharpton. I would assune Obama would be a White Black.

The truth usually comes out in pieces. I've no doubt GZ did follow T because that neighborhood had several robberies, I believe 8 or 9 in the last 15 months prior to this incident. GZ was doing what Neighborhood Watch patrons do. Now when Mr. smart mouth T approached GZ for following him instead of acting like a man, he acted like the punk he was and thus the physical turn of events. GZ happened to be prepared for smart mouth and aggressive punks and used his rights to protect himself instead of becoming the victim. GZ will walk regardless of all the racists acts provided and provoked by Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson. Those two are right up there with Oprah as being some of the most racists blacks who walk among us.

Pran,

And who is to say Zimmerman didn't come up behind the kid and say something like, "Hey, nigga, what you doing in my neighborhood?" No one really knows, huh? And if so, if you were Martin you would have turned and punched him too. Point is, no one really knows except Zimmieboy at this point. Certainly you or I don't and can only speculate.

Also, a little speculation on my part. Might as well jump in with the rest of you. Zimmieboy had run out of adderall and couldn't sleep so decided to do his playcop game. Coming down from the adderall made him a little angry at everything and everyone (a common side effect of adderall withdrawal it seems), and being a little overly aggressive (another side effect) followed Martin even though the 911 operator said it was not needed. Came up behind Martin and being in an angry and aggressive mood mouthed off to the kid. The kid, not taking any BS from some wierd looking white boy turned and attacked him. Perhaps he saw the gun and thought maybe it was a robbery. Police said they took the gun from Zimmie's waistband if I remember right.

Speculation, speculation, speculation. All we are doing is writing our own movie script about all this because none of us really know.

Space, the problem is that with your story, the fight would never have occurred where it did if that was the sequence of events. How would you explain that Zimm is on the phone for 2 1/2 minutes with the police after he got out of his car, while Trayvon is only 1 minute walking distance to his house?

actually it has been reported in other media sources that Travon's knuckles were bruised also. Doesn't fit your P/C/N's does it?

All kinds of people have been caught in lies concerning this case. There was a neighbor that stated he saw Travon on top of Zimmerman while Zimmerman was doing the screaming. Until the voice experts proved it was not Zimmerman screaming. Don't act like this is the first time white people have circled their wagons and closed ranks. They have had plenty of practice. Centuries of practice.

Fed Up- Yes , I am also tired of the racial bias that exists in this country. Notice that there are not any White History Months?, Notice that there aren't any White Miss America Contests. Notice that there aren't any White Entertainment channels? Now I used the word White, but it goes for all the other races as well, so get your head out of the sand.

The video when the brought Zimmerman into the police station immediately after the shooting clearly showed an officer walking up behind Zimmerman and looking at the back of his head. The police report said they had treated him at the scene.

I got a broken nose in a fight when I was young and it didn't bleed very much at all and I did not get black eyes although that is common when you get a broken nose but does not necessarily happen.

And, the 911 operator did not tell Zimmerman not to follow him .. he said " I don't need you to do that " according to the transcript I saw. Far different that being ordered not to. Besides which, the 911 operator doesn't have authority to give him orders.

Let's not forget that they have been publishing a picture of the kid when he was 12 to make him look nice and innocent. They don't publicize the fact he was now 6' 3". Nor do they talk about the fact the kid was previously charged with assault.

fed up - Broken noses have very immediate and noticeable signs

So what are those immediate and noticeable signs? Bloody nose maybe? What do you think happens? You think that they are supposed to look like a boxer after 12 rounds? A broken nose doesn't necessarily swell up but obviously you know a lot about them.

The court of social media is now in session - come forth and spew your opinions, comments, condemnations, so called facts, thoughts, feelings, biases, hatred, etc, etc, etc.....

What pisses off most if not all of the people commenting on this story as you think and want to believe that this type of "thinking" aka profiling is below you, that you don't do it and of course any of your friends who do wouldn't be your friends. You think that the world is as far as what you can see and anything beyond that is "uncivilized".

The tortured lengths MSNBC is going to in effort to keep stoking the racial fire is truly amazing. I have never heard the term, " a white man of hispanic decent" before. It really should not matter nor should it be a point of discussion until after the verdict is reached.

The voice experts proved nothing. They didn't even have a sample of Martin's voice to use in their analysis. That screams reasonable doubt.

It was reported that the voice expert who used voice recognition software is the one selling the software at $5,000 per license. That is a clear conflict of interest.

delmar - what an idiotic comment.

there is BET because all other television and movie entertainment is clearly an overwhelmingly white majority. then you go onto rag on black history month? you should learn something from black history month. educate yourself and learn it's a reminder of what African Americans have had to struggle with since being shipped over here to be slaves for the white man. Maybe you think yeah thats all in the past and they should just let it go. It was less than 200 hundred years slavery was abolished; it was 1963 when people with black skin were given the same equal rights as those with white skin. 1963 pal... buddy, that makes you 49 today. People in this country ARE racsist because that is what society has taught them.

Was GZ? I don't know. But you sir, sure sound like one angry white one.

sebastion, you're right , MSNBC calls Zimmerman a white man of hispanic descent, not a Mexican -American. But yet Obama, a white man of African descent is referred to as a African-American. MSNBC is nothing but racist, hypocrite trash.

Joe,

I agree with you 100% , we cant even watch the news anymore without the Media Choosing sides, They MAKE News everyday with their opinions, they have caused more problems with their "opinions" and Sensationalizing than even Jesse and al have , I have no respect for them anymore and have lost interest in watching anything on their Channel .

Joe,

Many Hispanics dont like being called Mexican. considering that his daddy is a white man you would normally call that person white wouldn't you? and a White man of African Descent is a White African. They have a whole lot of them in Africa. WE are Called African Americans because White America would not allow blacks to be just considered American.

The problem with this case is Zimmerman is the son of a Retired Judge and the city tried to cover it up. Since this kid was some black kid it wold look like a classic stand your ground case. The Problem is Zimmerman was wrong. I would not want some gun toting fool patrolling my neighborhood. It doesn't matter that some homes have been robbed before. Your Gun is to protect you and your family. I need all Americans to understand that Trayvons civil rights got taken from him for being black at night. nothing else. Please answer this question. If Trayvon was another white kid in that same hoodie, would he have been followed?

Or better yet had Trayvon shot Zimmerman would you still claim SYG? Baasicallly some of you are letting race be the issue. that is clouding the judgement. We dont know what happened and will not until some Witness comes out and says who started the confrontation. Just remembe SYG goes both ways!!!

i wouldn't descibe it as being racially biased. i myself am tired of being called racist just because i'm white. i'm tired of being made to feel that i should respect black people just because they're black. i have met very few blacks that have ever earned my respect, mostly because they're to wrapped up in the thinking that the white man is keeping them down, and that i owe them something just because i'm white. i'm tired of taking the blame for something that happened way before i was born. i didn't have anything to do with it. ya know what would be a better way of handling the situation, pull up your pants, get a job, and quit urinating on the sidewalks like a bunch of farm animals.......

White Hispanic ??.....Zimmerman's Great-great Grandfather was black ( on his mother's side)......So, Zimmerman is a lot more black than Elizabeth Warren is Native American.....

White Hispanic ??.....Zimmerman's Great-great Grandfather was black ( on his mother's side)......So, Zimmerman is a lot more black than Elizabeth Warren is Native American....mike in delray #5.14

and he's a lot more white than he is black (1/16?). have you heard of the book dna/usa? it states that most americans have dna originating from africa. most are in southern states. the least are in new england.

live with it.

delmar-2271700

Fed Up- Yes , I am also tired of the racial bias that exists in this country. Notice that there are not any White History Months?, Notice that there aren't any White Miss America Contests. Notice that there aren't any White Entertainment channels? Now I used the word White, but it goes for all the other races as well, so get your head out of the sand.

Are u kidding me ?

White history month ??? Open your history book and u'll learn about it. It's taught from elementary to high school as a required course. Go to college and more than likely u will need a western civilization course as requirement for your degree. It includes pretty much nothing but white history. So on top of all the history u are already aware of, u need a specific month to let others be aware of it.

White ms america, look at the history of it and u let me know how long it's been around and when anyone other than white began appearing in it. White tv shows. U obviously don't watch tv much. Look around and u tell me the number of shows that don't have a single minority or the one token blk. There are plenty.

Lastly, blks folks are like australia. It's a country and a continent all in one. American blks are a race and an ethnic grp all in one. When blk history month is celebrated it is the blk ethnicity we all have in common that is celebrated kin to st paddy day.

Really good post, Really.

The MSNBC thought police are out in full force on this one. Any comment not towing the party line is being collapsed or removed.

The facts are beginning to support Zimmerman's account and I'm sure once found not guilty MSNBC will defend Zimmerman as passionately as they attacked him and falsified the 9-11 tapes.

I'm sure this will be collapsed.

If in fact it was intermediate range, it clearly shows he was upright and standing apart, he had every chance to stop it then and there, he pulled his gun and killed a young boy.

anyone who has ever been in a fight, clearly more than just a cut will be on your knuckles, they get all messed up, this is big. He will have to testify or he will be convicted

The problem with this case is Zimmerman is the son of a Retired Judge and the city tried to cover it up.

Actually...His father was a magistrate in Fairfax County Virginia. NOT a retired Judge.

If in fact it was intermediate range, it clearly shows he was upright and standing apart, he had every chance to stop it then and there, he pulled his gun and killed a young boy.

Just how do you reach that conclusion based on the fact that it was intermediate range?

MSNBC is a really a piece of work with that headline. Why don't you include that "INTERMEDIATE" was 2 to 4 inches which was part of the report. Trying to keep the natives incited is a joke. Pathetic.

Mhart,

Intermediate range just isn't point blank. It's anywhere from 6-8 inches to 1.5-3.5 feet. GSR will still hit the target but is more scattered.

As for bruising and whatnot, those injuries won't show up on Trayvon because he's dead. Injuries before/after death are different.

Intermediate is 1 inch to 18 inches. Less than 1 inch is contact and over 18 inches is long range. The report indicates 2 to 4 inches. It also describes a 4 inch powder burn. Nice lack of reporting.

That definition is severely problematic indeed. You may want to look look up what legally this means.

sounds like a lot of distance between the two..intermediate sounds like he was far enough from Trayvon, to not have to shoot...no threat, that's why Trayvon was hollering..not close, not far, but intermediate..

"Intermediate range" means there is visible tatooing arround the entrance wound. Travon's clothing may have prevented tatooing on the skin. There are variables. I'd like to know the angle of the trajectory. Was there an exit wound? I would also like to know the make and model of the gun Zimmerman used and the bullet grain.

From what I have read in legal publications an intermediate gunshot wound is one that leaves "powder tattooing"at the wound. Personally I would say that if a gun powder residue was left on the wound it would be a relatively close shot.

In my honest opinion the media specifically posted "intermediate" not because this was the legal definition but because it makes everyone who is not educated on the subject believe that Martin was shot from a distance, making it more controversial.

When talking to my dad who is a retired police chief what a maters degree in criminology, he said it was midway, that they were not at close range nor far way.

Some one upthread said "immediate" is point blank to six inches, whereas "intermediate" is six inches to two feet. By that, two feet is still arm's length or easy lunge. Powder burns, also reportedly found, don't generally show up at a range.
A shot to the chest from between six inches to two feet isn't that great a distance nor indication of lashing out for the sake of.

Gunshot wounds are classified as Contact, Intermediate and Ranged.

Contact means the gun was so close that there is usually a muzzle imprint of the gun on the victim.

Intermediate is also called close-range and has powder tattooing of the victim's skin. Powder tattooing can begin at a distance of 1 cm for handguns, which is very close.

An intermediate gunshot could certainly be consistent with self defense.

B-Realistic

I have been trying to look it up for the past 10 minutes and I can't get an actual definition of intermediate range. The only one I can find is:

Hot powder grains accompany bullet to wound site & are driven into skin, leaving small red marks on skin - stippling/tattooing

If you have a better definition, would you be kind enough to link to it? Thanks.

In forensics there are four types of gunshot wound: Contact wound - The muzzle
of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting, Close Range - The
muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting, Intermediate
Range - The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away, and Distant - The gun was over
3.4 feet away at the time of shooting. In the case of a fatal shooting it is
often debated whether it was murder or suicide.

An intermediate gunshot could certainly be consistent with self defense.

...assuming that Martin was the aggressor.

I think the prosecutor made a mistake with the murder charge. Probably thought they could plea down to manslaughter and make everyone 'happy'. Manslaughter would be the correct charge - Zimmerman acted irresponsibly and his actions led to the death of someone else who was not doing anything wrong.

bull @!$%# ,

bob thomas, intermediate range is not right up against the body, but close enough to leave powder burns on the skin.

mike-1125760

An intermediate gunshot could certainly be consistent with self defense.

...assuming that Martin was the aggressor.

I think the prosecutor made a mistake with the murder charge. Probably thought they could plea down to manslaughter and make everyone 'happy'. Manslaughter would be the correct charge - Zimmerman acted irresponsibly and his actions led to the death of someone else who was not doing anything wrong. mike #6.10 - Wed May 16, 2012 8:54 PM

unfortunately i never had faith in this special prosecutor from the word go. from the evidence so far there's no way a smart lawyer would be afraid of this overcharge and cop to a reduced charge. i think she brought this phoney murder charge to appease trayvon's family and advocates. she knew it was probably going no where.

Cynthia's point said:

I would also like to know the make and model of the gun Zimmerman used and the bullet grain.

Have no idea about bullet grain but here's what the partial police report said about the officer taking Zimmerman's gun:

Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9semi auto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman I could observe his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head.

A little bit further on in the report he states:

Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD [Sanford Fire Department] While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state "I was yelling for someone to hep me but no one would help me.' At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place. Once Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD, he was transported to the Sanford Police Department.

Zimmerman was placed in an interview room at SPD where he was interviewed by Investigator D. Singleton. Zimmerman was turned over to investigations and this was the extent of my involvement in the case.

The Kel Tek hand gun that I collected from Zimmerman was placed in to evidence under TS-1

Hockeyguy-MSNBC has made a living out of misinforming the un & undereducated. Why should this be different?

Bob Thomasvia Facebook

What the hell is the official definition of intermediate range?

Forensics say intermediate is anywhere from 8" to 3.5 ft.

What intermediate means is that Zimmerman had his gun out and pointing at Martin before they collided. Zimmerman is a coward with a gun who shot a kid needlessly but, because his father is connected, he will get away with it. So much for justice and the law.

What intermediate means is that Zimmerman had his gun out and pointing at Martin before they collided. Zimmerman is a coward with a gun who shot a kid needlessly but, because his father is connected, he will get away with it. So much for justice and the law.

Were you there? Do you know for a fact that Zimmerman had his gun out prior to any confrontation? If he did...why in the world would an unarmed teenager not turn and run for cover?

Zimmerman's father is a retired magistrate from another state...hardly 'connected'.

Jibaro...(#6.17)....It's clear by your posts you have never taken a Defensive Shooting class. In the event you must draw and fire....one doesn't take the time to extend their arms out as if they are at a gun range....

1. The assailant is most likely within that distance

2. It would give them the opportunity to knock the gun out of the way or out of your hand.

If, as I suspect, Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman drew his gun from its holster, he pulled it out, turned it up and fired while his hand was still at his side.....THAT puts it well in the "Intermediate " distance of greater than 6".....Ever hear the term " Shooting from the hip" ???

I hope it does go away. Some people are so afraid to look prejudiced toward blacks that they end up being prejudiced toward every one else.

I wish they'd stop using the old picture of a younger Travon and use a more current one. A current one would bring less sympathy.

The most current one of him would be the one of him in his coffin. I don't think that would do any less for the sympathy case. Or would the one of his head stone due?

@Laura - Tell me, can you send me that picture? I want to know if you're actually just going to copy pasta a pic of, say, 50 cent or Lil' Jon and say that's Trayvon.

Lemme see that "recent pic" of Trayvon, eh?

@Laura...And I wish that George Zimmerman's wife or other family members would have given a more up-to-date photograph of George Zimmerman to the media rather than the 2005 booking photo that the ORANGE COUNTY POLICE chose to give to the Miami Herald. In that SEVEN YEAR OLD mugshot Zimmerman was TWENTY-ONE YEARS OLD, not 28, the age he was in 2012 when he shot Trayvon Martin dead. So why the double standard? Why didn't whites get angry with and question the motives of the ORANGE COUNTY POLICE, who released the old picture to the media (The Miami Herald), or Zimmerman's family, who would not provide a more recent photo? There were all kinds of pictures available ONLINE of Zimmerman and his family and friends. But for some strange reason Zimmerman's brother Robert, Jr. said something about, "Oh no, there are pictures and stuff" that the family and others did not want the public to see, so shortly thereafter the fb and twitter accounts were shut down. What were they trying to hide? Why didn't someone hack into THOSE accounts and splatter Zimmerman's business all over the internet as was done with Trayvon Martin? How was it possible that those pages were still active as late as April 11th before they were taken down? In that 2005 photo Zimmerman was obviously obese, his hairy face, earring and unsmiling features above the collar of his orange jail uniform looked very menacing. Surely there were better photos of him available, so WHY this one? Why were people allowed to speculate that based upon Zimmerman's out-of-shape appearance (5'8", 250 lbs) he could not have possibly chased down young Trayvon Martin? And for the information of certain people, no matter if a 17-year old is 3-feet tall and weighs 75 lbs. or is EIGHT FEET TALL and weights 500 lbs. in the eyes of the law he/she is still considered a child whose parents are responsible for their care until and unless some legal action says otherwise. So those using Trayvon's height to determine his maturity are way off base. After the uproar had been going on for awhile the family finally came out with a totally different photo of Zimmerman. In this more recent photo Zimmerman had lost weight, and he was smiling, clean-shaven, and wearing a suit. So if the family had this one all the time, why didn't they release this one that gave a more recent idea of what George Zimmerman REALLY looked like? Since that time more photos have trinkled out, but even they are misleading. They all show him when he was younger and he is always fully dressed. None of them show him with bare arms or chest. Why? Because they don't want the public to see his TATOOS. Oh yes, Zimmerman has tatoos. They are mentioned in his 2005 arrest reports as well as the 2012 one. According to them he has tatoos on his left arm and chest and he got more while he was in jail recently. But that's okay, right? Pictures of Trayvon Martin taken from his fb account show him in a sleeveless shirt with tatoos on his arms. And according to certain people that made him a fire-breathing black gang-banging monster who bit the heads off of live chickens and ran around at night in his grey hoodie looking for poor scared white people armed with guns to overpower and beat to death with his bare hands. There were other pictures of him, pictures of him happy and smiling with his parents and family members, pictures of him in places enjoying experiences that certain other people wish they could. Experiences provided by loving parents who are still working on jobs that they have held for over a decade each instead of "pimping/draining the system" as certain uninformed people have claimed.

I realize that there are reasons why Zimmerman's current photos are being kept from public view, but I am SoSic&Tired of the double standard whereby certain people continue to say such idiotic things as "I wish they'd stop using the old picture of a younger Travon and use a more current one. A current one would bring less sympathy." So let me get this straight. Certain types of people find nothing whatsoever wrong with the fact that there were no current pictures of George Zimmerman showing what he really looked like at age 28, only "old" pictures showing him in 2005 when he was 21, SEVEN YEARS YOUNGER and even high school pictures when he was at least TEN YEARS YOUNGER, or 18. But they have a problem with photos showing what Trayvon Martin looked like when he was SEVEN YEARS YOUNGER, or 11-12 years old? Do the math folks and you will find that George Zimmerman is 11-12 years OLDER than Trayvon Martin, and no matter how you try to twist it around, in 2005 when Zimmerman was a fat surly-looking hard-drinking troubled college student who was getting in trouble with the law, Trayvon Martin WAS an innocent, sweet-looking young kid. But certain people don't want to see that truth. Instead they would rather hack Martin's fb account and dig through his photos until they could find a picture of the 17-year old BOY who had not been arrested but in their minds looked equally as menacing as the 21-year old MAN, who HAD been arrested. A current picture of the 17-year old black boy next to a SEVEN YEAR OLD picture of his killer. How does that even begin to make sense? Or is what certain bloodthirsty people REALLY want the most recent picture of Trayvon Martin showing him dead and bleeding on the ground with a bullet through his chest, or a picture of his cold lifeless body lying in a casket placed next to the old picture of George Zimmerman smiling and wearing a suit? You hypocritical monsters...may God have mercy on your souls.

Crimson Cujo, this group of photos with Trayvon Martin was made 9 days before the shooting and was posted on Global Grind by his family.

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=0#gtop

Is that satisfactory?

Somewhere between one inch and ten yards??????? an absolutely useless statement.

Anything between 2 miles and intercontinental.

Form what I can find out, it means the gun was 13 to 36 inches away from the person that was shot.

Forensic science defines it as 8 inches to 3.5 feet away.

3 feet sounds like close range to me. Unless he was shot within inches of the barrel where powder residue was found on Martin's body, there is really no way to tell exactly how close he was. The damage done by a 9mm jacketed hollow point is the same whether he was shot a foot from the gun or 20 feet away. The muzzle velocity is 1170 feet per second for a typical load. At 25 yards, it is 1100 feet per second, so there is little energy loss the first 25 yards, and the penetration is the same.

I am seeking legal advice on this but I suspect in legal terms there is a formula which includes the caliber of the weapon .... in other words intermediate with a .22 is somewhat different to intermediate with a 357M, makes sense to me.

Between 12 and 36 inches is intermediate range.

Apparently no one viewed the video embedded in the article. Had they done so, they would have heard the estimate by the Texas medical examiner that, based upon the pattern of the wound, the shot was fired from 2 to 4 inches away from the victim.

FXTSTC, Thanks!!!

Most of us are at work, stealing internet time from our employers, so can't watch videos. :)

What mistake did Martin make? He was walking back to his Dad's house minding his own business. Only in America is that a mistake.

C...I think the mistake may have been hitting someone that was armed. When I was growing up, you were allowed to hit someone back if they hit you, but I guess now you can just blow them away?

First, big mistake stopping, turning and confronting a total stranger in the dark. You assume any stranger following you at night is armed. Second, you never engage in physical combat with a total stranger in the dark not knowing if the person is armed. Acting tough can get you killed, no matter how strong you are. Professional football players find out all the time fighting in bars and getting shot by much weaker foes.

So it's OK for Zimmerman to disobey the instructions of a 911 dispatcher and leave his vehicle and follow Martin on foot,with a loaded gun? But it's not OK for Martin,when maybe he feels threatened (we'll never know since Zimmerman made sure that Martin will never have the chance to tell his side of the story...),to defend himself?

The guy with the gun that pushes the issue is innocent and the unarmed kid is guilty for standing HIS ground. Is that what you're saying?

I guess in this effing Fantasy Land world you've concocted "acting tough" was never what was going through Zimmerman's mind,huh?

Tell you what...if Zimmerman walks on this after that woman was sentenced to 20 years for NOT killing someone when she "stood her ground" in her own house,and yeah...she was black,there's no escaping that fact...if that's what they call justice in Florida and that state gets burned to the ground in the aftermath let me be the first one to say justice will then be served to BOTH sides.

One of them paid with his life! There is a huge difference in how the 2 suffered.

kennyw-2983735 - First off let me say your just another person on the internet has NO FACTS at all about EITHER case and lives in a "fantasy world". Let me try and enlighten you (Sorry I'm sick of these racist comments by the uninformed)

1. Zimmerman had already LEFT his vehicle when asked "Not to follow". Why is it most people cannot understand this. Yes MOST NW people do not "watch" from a vehicle. They OBSERVE from a distance.

2. The dispatcher asked if he was following. He said "Yes". He said "we don't need you to do that" and George said "OK" and STOPPED FOLLOWING TREYVON. (Which let me explain for the people MEANS NOTHING. He was asking him not to not TELLING him and EVEN IF HE DID ITS NOT A LAWFUL ORDER and you have EVERY RIGHT to "follow" someone in public especially in a gated community)

3. No its NOT OK for Martin to ASSAULT George Zimmerman for "following him". You cannot assault someone because you "feel threatened" simply because they followed you. Try it and see if you don't get thrown in jail. Its not a black thing but I've noticed that most black people I've asked this question too think its PERFECTLY fine to do this and yes you will get arrested for it. Not because your black but BECAUSE ITS AGAINST THE LAW.

4. Treyvon doubled back and confronted George. Period all there is NO OTHER logical way he was killed at the other end of the complex. .I find it rather deplorable that people want to equate ASSAULTING someone with "Standing your ground". You really need to LEARN what self-defense and SYG really is. Its not "Hmmm im going to come up and get in your face and start punching you cuz im mad you 'profiled' me".

5. No acting tough was not going through his mind. He had no idea that Treyvon was not armed and had about 7 inches on him. No I don't for ONE SECOND believe GZ had ANY intention of confronting him. He just wanted to tell the cops which way he ran.

6. Let's not forget all he LOST Treyvon and talked to the dispatcher for over 90 seconds. Do you realize how long that is? Treyvon could have WALKED home in that time. Can you explain how he is killed up at the OTHER end of the complex if he had taken off running? Oh yeah GZ could easily catch Treyvon right? pfttt.

7. There are so many facts that prove GZ statement I'm sick of talking it. Let's not forget the funeral director and CRUMP and his family who stated time and time again that poor old Treyvon had NO MARKS ON HIM except for the gunshot. So now knowing they misled everyone about this (I mean can you say anything else? Crump had the report and im certain the family could see it as well) why does this not anger you or anyone else who can rationalize a thought.

8. First its "Poor Treyvon was just an innocent 12 year old walking home". Hmm yeah in the COLD AND RAIN in a community that has a ton of breakins. He is HANGING OUT BY THE CLOSED CLUBHOUSE and looks suspicious.

9. Then its "Poor Treyvon did not have a mark on him but a gunshot. That means GZ is LIEING he had to shoot him from a distance in cold blood". Whoops looks like that was not true.

10. Then its "Look at the video GZ has no injuries he is LIEING". Wow we get to see photos and doctor reports that confirm this as WELL as the fact Teryvon had messed up knuckles which confirms again GZ is NOT lieing.

11. Now why didn't Crump / Jackson and Martins just use the script they are trying to sell now from the beginning? Now its "Treyvon was fighting for his life thats why he is marked up!" - Hmmm really you spouted over and over that he was NOT marked up and that GZ was NOT injured. Both have been proven to be FALSE but no one calls them on it? Why did they LIE about this?

12. Anyone who has paid attention why is it that the Martin and Crump story seems to change every week but yet GZ's hasn't?

13. That "Woman" who got 20 years DESERVED the sentence she was given. You realize it only took TWELVE minutes to convict her right? Know why? Because she went out in the garage, got the gun, came back and SHOT AT HER HUSBAND AND HER KIDS. That is no way shape or form SYG. The husband LIVED there and had EVERY RIGHT to be at the property. Once she went out to the garage and came BACK with the gun she was now the aggressor and lost ALL rights to SYG defense. It's amazing to me that this is SO HARD for people to understand. You cannot claim "I was scared for my life" and then turn around and go BACK into the lions cage especially when the person your assaulting LIVES there. It wasn't some random mugger/rapist/stranger. If she had waited for her husband to come out into the garage she could have blown his head off and been justified. Otherwise just because your mad and him and tired of him hitting you does not give you the "right" to shoot at him. You do realize he said he was begging for his life and she still pulled the trigger and shot at him AND her kids right? She was offered a plea deal and REFUSED it so she got what the law stated. Again its not a black thing its the LAW.

14. Its great to know that so many uninformed people want to condone RIOTS because your understand of the law and "Justice" is plain WRONG. Everyone screaming for "Justice" seems to me they really just want "revenge". Learn the difference.....

@dan123123123:

Excellent analysis and logic, for sure . . .

For sure! :-)

Just because following someones not ILLEGAL, you do NOT have the RIGHT to PURSUE anyone who has committed no crime, and do NOT have a right to STOP them, and you do NOT have a RIGHT to interrogate them.... Neighborhood watch Protocol is reflective of this, and its AGAINST Neighborhood watch protocol to patrol while ARMED, and AGAINST protocol to engage. 2 rules from the start broken...... Tho they aren't rules you get ARRESTED for, you do NOT have a RIGHT to do them. You do NOT have the right to be a vigilante.

The death happened so far from the vehicle you have NO claims to back up that Trayvon doubled back... you're just making crap up at this point. There was NOTHING in the back Alley for Trayvon to hide behind unless someone came along and REMOVED large obastacles from the area. Its is a WIDE well maintained section of the complex with all the homes connected, no additional alleys, no large bushes, NO trees. IN order for Trayvon to DOUBLE back, he would have had to be standing invisible in plain sight of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman simply couldnt see him as he melted into the Shadows....unlikely.

George did not bother seeing a doctor the night it happened from these "life threatening" injuries, Trayvon has ONE small abrasion on ONE finger by his ring, so... did Trayvon simultaneously punch Zimmerman in the nose, both eyes, and face all in one blow? Thats some special talent right there. Then slam his head repeatedly to the ground without any other abrasions to his hands? George saw the "family" physician 24-48 hrs later... and then STILL did not do ANY follow up treatment with ANY other doctor, despite the "family" dr telling him to do so. Yes how about those LIFE THREATENING injuries????

Since when is it OK, to use a gun on the STREET because youre losing a fist fight?

So youre saying if you get into a fight on the street

ANd you clearly do not have an understanding of FL stand your ground... you Simply have to "feel" threatened to be able to stand your ground. Being followed, pursued, chased at night by a man in a car, who got out of his car, continued through a public alley to a back of the dwelling, caught up to him, and began interrogating him, is enough for ANY average person to feel in Danger. Are you trying to say a woman in the same situation, shouldn't feel in danger until the man has her on the ground trying to rape her?

You do NOT have proof Trayvon hit him from behind. You have NO proof George was trying to get to his vehicle. You have NO proof that George didnt try to detain Tray further, hold him, or grab him in any manner. You have NO proof in which the manner George used to ask his line of questions. You are in NO position to discredit the supposed witness who was allegedly on the phone at the moment of contact.

So the woman who decided to STAND HER GROUND deserves the sentence, yet the man who PURSUED the ENTIRE SITUATION gets to claim self defense???? What are you smoking??? You cant go LOOKING for trouble then claim self defense....... Bottom line... if he didnt go LOOKING and PURSUING an INNOCENT person he thought was SUSPICIOUS none of this would have happened.

Dan, you bring up some valid points here. Let's address them one by one:

1. Zimmerman had already LEFT his vehicle when asked "Not to follow". Why is it most people cannot understand this. Yes MOST NW people do not "watch" from a vehicle. They OBSERVE from a distance.

And if they are doing it right, you'll never know they were watching at all until a cop comes up to you and asks. I have a neighborhood watch in my neighborhood, which I didn';t know when we moved in. I take my swords out to the field by the neighborhood church to practice Kumooyeh--Korean sword disciplines and a cop stopped me and said Neighborhood Watch called about a crazy kid waving a sword. I explained it was a form of martial arts, asked if it was going to be a problem, cop said no as long as I'm not threatening anyone with them and the sharpened swords stay home (my practice swords are blunt) it was fine. This happened twice. The third time the responding officer took me over to meet the neighborhood watch captain and formally introduced us and explained to the captain what I was doing and I have had no further problems. So yes, Watch volunteers are supposed to observe and report. Not follow or make contact.

2. The dispatcher asked if he was following. He said "Yes". He said "we don't need you to do that" and George said "OK" and STOPPED FOLLOWING TREYVON. (Which let me explain for the people MEANS NOTHING. He was asking him not to not TELLING him and EVEN IF HE DID ITS NOT A LAWFUL ORDER and you have EVERY RIGHT to "follow" someone in public especially in a gated community)

George said 'ok' but there is some heavy breathing afterward on the call that could possibly lead some to believe he may have continued on his current course. We don't know for certain. And while you are correct, there is no law against following someone (unless you have a restraining order, or are involved in some legal situation in which contact is inadvisable) in certain situations it can be construed as negative.

3. No its NOT OK for Martin to ASSAULT George Zimmerman for "following him". You cannot assault someone because you "feel threatened" simply because they followed you. Try it and see if you don't get thrown in jail. Its not a black thing but I've noticed that most black people I've asked this question too think its PERFECTLY fine to do this and yes you will get arrested for it. Not because your black but BECAUSE ITS AGAINST THE LAW.

As I understand it, this is the problem with the 'Stand Your Ground' law. It allows you to take action if you feel you are threatened without giving you the legal responsibility to retreat from the confrontation. A few years back I was walking in a park in my neighborhood when a guy came up behind me and stuck his hand between my legs. I yelled, he took offrunning. I called cops on my cellphone as I pursued the man, they told me to stop following him, I did not, I continued to follow him while keeping 911 apprised of our location (streets and alleys), and after the cops caught up with us I found he's a registered child sex offender just touched down out of jail. I am 5', was wearing my niece's Hannah Montana shirt and had my hair done in two braids, and he never saw me from the front, only behind, so he assumed I was a minor.

4. Treyvon doubled back and confronted George. Period all there is NO OTHER logical way he was killed at the other end of the complex. .I find it rather deplorable that people want to equate ASSAULTING someone with "Standing your ground". You really need to LEARN what self-defense and SYG really is. Its not "Hmmm im going to come up and get in your face and start punching you cuz im mad you 'profiled' me".

There is one entrance into and out of the complex from what I saw on Google Maps. The 7-11 Martin was coming back from was outside that entrance. The crime scene was in a grassy area between two rows of the condo buildings, one row faced Twin Trees Ln and one row faced Retreat View Cir. There is a sidewalk that runs the entire length of the rear yard/grassy area between both those rows of buildings and the crime scene was between two of those buildings halfway toward the ungated, dead-end rear of the gated complex, reportedly 75 yards away from the building in which he was a guest. Reportedly, his father had been seeing the woman who lived there for several years, Martin and his were regular visitors/overnight guests, and Martn felt comfortable enough to get up from the basketball game at halftime and go to the 7-11 for Skittles for father's girlfriend's young son and tea for himself.

5. No acting tough was not going through his mind. He had no idea that Treyvon was not armed and had about 7 inches on him. No I don't for ONE SECOND believe GZ had ANY intention of confronting him. He just wanted to tell the cops which way he ran.

The police report describes the male subject lying facedown, in the grass, with his hands under his body as a black male, 6', 160. Zimmerman identified himself to the responding officer as Zimmerman, George michael, DOB 10/3/85, white male, 5'09", no weight, no DL, and that height would have been verified when they got to the police station. So there is three inches between those two males, not seven.

6. Let's not forget all he LOST Treyvon and talked to the dispatcher for over 90 seconds. Do you realize how long that is? Treyvon could have WALKED home in that time. Can you explain how he is killed up at the OTHER end of the complex if he had taken off running? Oh yeah GZ could easily catch Treyvon right? pfttt.

Zimmerman called 911 at exactly 1917 hours. He spoke on the phone with the dispatcher for 4 minutes and 21 seconds, wrapping up the call at approximately1921 hours. Paramedic Brady from Sanford Fire Rescue 38 declared Martin deceased at 1930 hours--after three responding officers, plus the paramedic himself, attempted to resuscitate the black male subject lying on the grass. If we assume that the officers spent about a minute each on attempting to resuscitate Martin, and we know that the first officer on the scene made no immediate attempt to render aid to the prone subject as he was busy securing the upright male subject in the red jacket, that can take as much as four minutes off the gap between 1921 and 1930 hours. So it's a reasonable assumption to believe that Martin was shot between 1921 hours and 1926.

Is those 6 minutes long enough for everything that Zimmerman said happened to happen?

Anyone who has paid attention why is it that the Martin and Crump story seems to change every week but yet GZ's hasn't?

.

It hasn't?

It went from "just got out of truck to check street sign and he jumped me" and the gun went off on accident....

to - Ok, I was following him but I wasn't chasing him and was walking back to check the street sign when he jumped me

to - Ok, I wasn't checking the street sign, and I WAS chasing him, but I stopped and I was walking back to the clubhouse to meet the police.

to - Ok, I was walking back to my truck...

to - Ok, I was at my truck - he's a ninja and snuck up behind me and said a sweet line "You got a problem? Now you do!" because that's totally believable.... and began beating me up, because apparently I'm helpless. This time I intentionally shot him though, forget about that accident thing - it was on purpose.

Oh btw, Martin is dead, he doesn't have a story of his own.

@dan123123123:

Excellent analysis and logic, for sure . . .

hardly. Half of his points are pure conjecture on his part.

He should contact the SPD as a witness, considering he knows for certain that Zimmerman stopped pursuing Trayvon upon direction by 911 dispatch and that Trayvon doubled back, as well as many other facts only one privy to the encounter would know.

@Amanda, your last line is easily explained,

those 6 minutes long enough for everything that Zimmerman said happened to happen?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-oQQGThfuY&feature=autoplay&list=PL11B38221826AEA4B&playnext=2
you can also find other police (trained personnell in hand to hand close combat) videos of both good and bad
police situations from 50 seconds to 5 minutes. The link above also shows how quick it can change in a courtroom, and other arenas as well. 6 minutes is an eternity in a fight.

Keep being a vicitim. Avoid taking responsibility. Stop looking at the truth. The black community has been doing this since the civil war.

@Lloyd S-3714865

You're a perfect example of a bitter white guy who is resentful because even with a 400 year head start you finished near last. J.ews got their reparations after the atrocities of WWII. Isn't it wrong that after building America into the richest country in the world there wasn't a red penny paid to the slaves after emancipation? Instead they were treated like animals for another 100 years or so. Not even an "atta boy" for a century of Olympic glory (Jesse Owens was only American for 10 seconds, then he became a black guy again). America owes a debt of gratitude for jazz, swing, rock&roll and rap. The whole world copies African American style.

You and bigots like you sound like perpetual victims to me. Blinded by your own ineptitude.

Racism has existed and exists. So does poor white trash. Black people, white people, brown, yellow. doesn't matter. What matters is what socioeconomic group you belong to. Poor people regardless of color have way more in common than a rich white with a poor white.

I have many Black people that I think the world of as fellow human beings but the truth is, their are many Blacks, proven, that do not wish to join the main stream America. They want their own dress, speech, and life styles, which is fine, but don't complain if that isn't accepted by others. You can't want to be a non-conformist and then bitch because others don't like your style. The same values that create dress originality and music originality can come in conflict with the main stream, no matter what color the person is. I have seen Black managerial people challenge other Blacks in stores who look and act suspicious, but if a White did that, it's racist. Make up your mind what you want to be and live with it, without the race card. It's old hat.

Cool Karen,so next time a white dude gets the living crap stomped out of him for being and dressing "white" in a black neighborhood we aren't going to hear a mumbling word from you,right?

Right?

Picture :

Lloyd,Blacks have also been fighting and dying for this country from the Revolutionary war.Do you know who was the first man to die on the bridge at Lexington Cocorde?His name was Crispus Atucks,he was a free black man who made his living at sea.Thousands of blacks died in the civil war fighting for the Union to preserve your freedom and yet they've been treated as 2nd class all this time.I cant imagine why they would feel ill served.

@mikeb

Love the sentiments of your post but just so we can be factually correct here...

Crispus Attucks was killed on March 5,1770 during the Boston Massacre,near the Old State House in Boston. (Interestingly John Adams actually was the lawyer for the defense,representing the British Redcoats,during the subsequent trial.)

The Battle of Lexington-Concord,which started the American Revolution,took place a little over 5 years later in Middlesex County,Massachusetts,on April 19,1775.

Agree with what you're saying completely though.

Mike Josephenie said:

Even worse is to turn your back and be jumped by the No_limit-N. thug.

The Trayvon Martin with the 'No Limit Nigga' handle is not the same Trayvon Martin who was shot. There is more than one Trayvon Martin in America.

[citation needed]

Tex,

Your post doesn't surprise me at all. From your handle you either live in Texas or wish you were a Texan. Just one more reason to "pre-judge" Texans as being illiterate racist bigots. I'm so happy to see that soon your state anthem will be mariachi music and your kids will all be eating tacos for school lunch.

Tex,

I'm a Texan. Born and raised there. Grew up in the east Texas farmland and the south Texas oil patch. I happen to love good tacos and speak Spanish very well, although I must admit I don't like mariachi music. Maná is so much better. Oh, and I'm a white boy. I just took offense at your post #11.13 because it showed to me the typical ignorant redneck outlook on life that I have stood up against all my life and regret that many Texans who are good fine folk get branded that way. Nothing personal. If you noticed I pointed out that many "prejudge" Texans to all be ignorant racist bigots. Didn't say that you are one. Sorry if it struck too close to home.

texie,

I guess you could say I am a european mongrel with Cherokee on both sides of the family. Dutch, English, French, German, Swiss............pretty much a white American. Family was burned out in North Carolina during the civil war and moved to Texas. Most Americans whose families have been here several generations are like that.

Please show me where I called you a name. I kept it in general terms.

Just a sampling of your post above that shows either bigotry or outright ignorance besides being very incorrect in substance.

As far as building America more credit should be given to the mule,

White men saved the African slaves from eating each other.

As slaves the White men took good care of them and kept them healthy.

And I responded as I did because as a Texan your post was an embarassment to all good hearted Texans.

And you really shouldn't be approving your own posts like that. Shows lack of self-confidence.

He's white. PERIOD. Now, since he is not of European heritage, he is of Hispanic heritage. Obviously, you've never filled out a census form or form regarding race. White is a race. Hispanic is not. It boggles the mind that people of European heritage cannot get that through their thick skulls.

No, some folks just can't stand it when someone of an ethnic heritage other than white commits a crime against a black person. It makes their heads explode.

Contrary to popular belief, Hispanic means of Spanish or Portuguese descent. Spain and Portugal are both in Europe.

Since george has an Afro Peruvian Grandfather, is he Black/White Hispanic? partly Black Hispanic? Or just a White man to aid race baiting?

Hispanic is not a race. It's never been a race.

And yeah, I guess if you're lazy and stupid, you call him Mexican. But you've already demonstrated you've learned everything you know from the message boards at Stormfront.

African-American is the PC for black or Negro...a race. You can be both white and black of mixed race. Why is that so confusing to you? It's the 21st century. Come join us.

How is that weird? White is a race, Hispanic is an ethnicity. There are Hispanic blacks, too, and yes, Asian Hispanics (albeit there are very few of them). There are many white Hispanics in this country—not all of us are of the complexion of George Lopez. What do you think Cameron Diaz is? If she snatched your briefcase and ran away, would you tell the police that a "Hispanic woman" stole your briefcase? No, you'd probably tell them that a white woman did so, because that'll allow them to physically identify them more easily. That doesn't make her any less Hispanic.

toopac, mary and co. to bad so sad... u man lost, learn the constitution and u will live and learn longer.

Sooo... you're either white or your black? That's it?

This has nothing to do with black, White or Hispanic this is about a boy who was walking home and because of certain stereotypes and misconceptions a guy thought hey he looks suspicious. He should have listen to the police and stayed in his vehicle and this story would have never come about. I think Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his car. This would have never happen. Do anyone think that he would have follow a white man the same way? That's the million dollar question

tameika, yes i do think he would have followed a white, chinese, black, or american indian. lets not forget he was spending his own free time to help his own community that had a rash of break-ins. this is a person trying to help others. if your theory is gz was gunning for, and attacked tm, why would he have called the police beforehand? if i was an ego-maniac as gz is portrayed, why not hang up the phone and attack when tm came toward his car? if gz was hunting tm with his gun out i don't feel tm would be that stupid to attack someone with a gun. as was heard from the tapes gz lost tm and was heading back to his car to meet the police. so from what i can deduce gz did not have the gun out,(if gz was attacking it would make sense to have the gun out) he did not attack tm, tm attacked gz, and gz was at that point fighting for his life from an unknown assailant who had already hit him and knocked him to the ground. if it was me, i would be glad that i had the gun and it was him dead and not me. please tell me where logic would point another direction

Ed,

Let's also not forget that Zimmerman was taking adderall and that adderall users claim a period of senseless anger and rage when the drug wears off. Don't believe me just search it. Plenty of cases.

I never said zimmerman was not attached what I said was had he did what the police told him mabe there would have never been an attack. I feel that zimmerman felt that this time he wasnt gonna let another one get away after calling the police an not getting any help. He just went about it wrong way and now a life has taken, so sad not just for travon mother but for zimmermans father.

And Obama is a white man of African heritage.

He is a white man and he is of Hispanic heritage. What's so wrong with that? Here, grab a dictionary and look up the words "race" and "enlightening." MSNBC might not be able to help itself, but your ignorance does have a cure.

Andres, you people are just grasping at straws. You know, "race" "culture" "heritage," what ever you do or do not want to call it, under any normal circumstances, someone who is of Hispanic background is referred to as such, and never normally called "White Hispanic." I don't care if it is technically correct or not, in common language people refer to those of Hispanic origins as "Hispanic" not white.

For instance, in threads about illegal immigration, many of you like to say "you white people are just racist against Mexicans," for instance. Well by your logic there is no such race as "Mexican" or "Hispanic," so by your own words it is impossible for an "Anglo-European, White" to be 'racist' against a "Hispanic or Mexican," because by your logic they are exactly the same and there is no difference.

But the media doesn't even refer to Zimmerman as "White Hispanic" because they are playing off of the fact that "Hispanic" is not legally a race, they say it because his father is white and his mother is Peruvian. Your kind are just making crap up to try and defend the media. Zimmerman is in fact no more "caucasian, white, anglo, ect" than President Obama, and yet you don't refer to Mr. Obama as the nation's first "White-African American President."

But whatever you have to tell yourself to be conviced the media is not distorting your perception, you just go on with it.

Intermediate range by forensic definition is 8" to 42". I would say that qualifies as "close range"