This does not really change anything. An FBI lab said the findings of the voice analysis was inconclusive.

What the released evidence does show is why Ms. Corey elected not to present the evidence to a Grand Jury. She would have been lucky to have an indictment returned but definitely would not have received an indictment for Murder 2.

I'm sad that my country is failing at finding justice for this kid.

mr. z had a reponsibilty, as the adult and weapon holder, to do so many things he did not.

hmmm?? it was suggessted to not carry a weapon, wait for officers, etc...

All of those suggestiions, if followed properly would have possibly saved a life???

Zimmerman mean mugged him and Travon bowed up just like you would expect from a atheltic teenager. Travon dropped the first licks and when Zimmerman got his @ss whipped he pulled the gun and put a cap down. Both have fault, one is dead, and the 50/50 tie on guilt will go to Zimmerman as there is too much evidence to contradict his version. Florida could not convict Casey Anthony, they have no prayer winning this case against Zimmernan..........

Well, who knows why they changed their story. Maybe they have just decided it's a very risky trial to be a juror. I'd do it though. If I was an eye witness, I'd tell it as I saw it.

He assumed like a juror would assume that the guy getting pummeled would be the one to cry for help.

I am sorry DOLITTLE never seen or heard anything about he should not carry his gun, and after the 911 operator told GZ they did not need him to follow TM GZ was on his way back to his SUV to meet the police, then TM came back to ATTACK GZ, that is when he got shot. If TM would have just went back to his dads GF's house we would not be having this discussion.

All the want in the world will never that TM is DEAD, why do we want to punish someone that was only trying to save his own LIFE.

The fact that he is changing his tune on one part of his story makes the rest of his testimony suspect as well. This is definitely not a good development for Zimmerman. The only witness that could support his claim to being attacked at all has now been shown to have credibility problems.

The reality of this is that there had been a number of robberies in the neighborhood and the wanna be cop Zimmerman tried to play hero. He thought that Martin as the burglar and went up and confronted him, instigating the entire thing. When Martin would not comply with Zimmerman, Zimmerman instigated a confrontation that resulted in Martin being shot. This is not self defense or "stand your ground," this is a vigilante who got it wrong and shot an innocent kid. Period, end of story!!!

Only thing about it JS is that every other testimony follows this guys when he says that Martin was on top of Zimmerman hitting him. It only paints a better picture.

Well I sure am glad you have it all figured out. You should be the D.A. Of course, it could be completely different from what you say. Zimmerman, correctly suspicious of a member of the target suspect group for the neighborhood burglaries, asked Trayvon what he was doing around there. Trayvon could have just explained he was staying at his dad's house at (addresss) but he didn't, choosing to run. When Zimmerman, who lost track of him, was returning to his truck, Trayvon decided to beat up on him. Period, end of story!!!

just saying it like i see it said

after the 911 operator told GZ they did not need him to follow TM GZ was on his way back to his SUV to meet the police, then TM came back to ATTACK GZ

Oh, were YOU there to see exactly what happened -- including what started the fight? If so, why the hell haven't you stepped up and done the right thing by telling the police/DA/Special prosecutor!?! But I'm betting that you're just spewing what "GZ" has been trying to sell to everyone else: HIS version of what HE wishes had happened.

Mark H-915213 said

Well I sure am glad you have it all figured out. You should be the D.A. Of course, it could be completely different from what you say.

Yes, it could very well be EXTREMELY different from what you say -- Mark H-915213.

Martin was never hit. Martin had to start the fight because there are absolutely no other injuries other than the gunshot wound and an abrasion on his knuckles.

doolittle13

That is crap. The injustice is that GZ was charged due to public pressure.

GZ won't even go to trial based on provable facts.

If my family member was being hit like GZ I would hope he would shoot him !

The only facts that matter is that TM was pounding hi GZ& at that point GZ can use lethal force ! All the rest has no bearing on the right of self defence.

I have heard nothing that changes my legal opinion !

Now all the hype over this story is starting to die down as morsels of information about what really happened starts trickling out. As due process unfolds more facts will come out and how different the story will look from what people originally jumped to conclusions over- that this kid was the victim of a racial crime. Jesse, Al and the protestors can all go home now- the story doesn't fit in with your biased views

Only thing about it is the FACT that nobody -- NOBODY -- saw or heard the beginning of the fight.

NOBODY can say definitively whether it was Trayvon or George who started it all, yet all you "Zimmerman was only defending himself against a thug" people have decided to be Judge, Jury and Executioner, with Trayvon the guilty party.

The Quacked One

That is exactly what happened !

GZ said OK to stop following TM. He then said TM was approaching him with his hands in his waist band. He also said he didn't know what TM was up to as he approached GZ.

You should try listening to the tapes before commenting !

45charlie; If you or one of your family members were to grab me by the shirt, trousers, or hair (or whatever) -- they or you WILL get "beaten to a pulp" by me. It's called SELF-DEFENSE.

p.s., unless YOU were there to see what started the fight, you have no idea at all what REALLY happened.

The Quacked One

This is an easy case ! The only thing that matters is GZ was on the bottom & TM was attacking according to witness Joe Oliver & the injuries that are real.

Speculation is not evidence !

45charlie;

YOU should try not jumping to conclusions based on your own personal bias.

GZ said OK to stop following TM. He then said TM was approaching him with his hands in his waist band. He also said he didn't know what TM was up to as he approached GZ.

Got anything from between the time "GZ" hung up and the end of the fight? No? Then stop playing at being Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Evidence shows that Martin was not hit. Hard to start a fight and not even land one blow, one scratch, one bruise. Martin obviously started the fight.

45charlie;

Speculation is not evidence !

And here you are speculating.......

NavyVet81;

I suppose that if someone grabbed YOU, that YOU would just let them do whatever they want....... No, I'm not saying that Georgie grabbed Trayvon -- just that IT MAY HAVE HAPPENED THAT WAY.

I was not there. Neither were YOU.

The Quacked One

Not speculating at all. My legal opinion is based on experience & the Law. The know evidence clearly shows TM was beating GZ.

That is all that matters. The 911 tapes are just icing on the cake !

45charlie;

Show me the evidence that "GZ" did not grab "TM". Oh, right -- nobody saw the who started the fight, so THERE IS NO EVIDENCE PROVING WHO STARTED THE FIGHT.

The only way Zimmerman will get convicted is with an all black jury.

Nothing important. GZ will still be acquitted of Murder 2.

Quack - If he was grabbed there would be blood pooling in that area. This is why an autopsy is important. It states clearly that the only sign of a struggle on TM was that he had an abbrasion on his knuckles and a gun shot wound to the chest. GZ is the one with all the evidence of someone getting attacked. In investigator would call his wounds from an attack and not from self defense.

That's pretty harsh Suzie and it is apparent that you didn't read the witness testimony.

Attacking me only shows that you are grasping at straws. GZ is not my hero. I unlike you read the testimony of eye witnesses to draw my conclusion of what happened that night. Everyone who wrote or was transcribed said that they saw one man on top of the other punching the one on the ground. Clearly if Zimmerman was on top Martin would have evidence of this on his face and/or head. So it is safe to assume that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and therefore Zimmerman would be crying for help. Prior history means nothing when eye witnesses paint the picture.

This is totally a "non-story". It changes nothing. Unless you want to believe that GZ, lying on his back with a broken nose was the aggressor.

What next? Assuming that there is a conviction, Zimmerman will be a HERO, not a punk, in prison. White prison gang members have NO RESPECT for Blacks, not even seventeen-year-old Blacks. Indeed, there are plenty of those in prison, and they kill them quite frequently. Zimmerman will probably become a member of a White prison gang, admired for his willingness to kill Blacks. Sorry to burst the bubble of your sick fantasies, folks, but no, Zimmerman will not "get his due in the shower room." He will be pitching, not catching, as they say on the Inside.

dictionary72

Sadly there is a lot of truth in what you say. Yes TM should have continued to his ad's house rather than approach GZ.

However, the only relevant facts are Joe Oliver's statement that TM was beating GZ & the Injuries that back GZ's account.

This really has nothing to do with race . GZ is a minority & is know for helping under privileged kids.. He & his wife fostered 2 Black kids & did community work.

This will all speak to character if it miraculously goes to trial.

Shandril

GZ is Hispanic so how is your bubble ?

There was nothing unreliable about the change of testimony. It actually shows an increase in reliability due to the fact that it is more realistic. The original statement was based upon the rationalized process that the person on bottom and being beaten would be yelling for help. The amended statement is based upon the reality that the mouths of those being observed could not be seen in the dark from those distances. The end result is the same, just worded in a realistic manner.

George Zimmerman will not have an all white jury, so justice will have a say in this case. GZ claims he was on the way back to his truck and was attacked from behind, that being the case and the ass whipping he was suppose to have been receiving would have render him unconscious with bruises all over his face and a pounded in head. If TM had jumped him from behind, not knowing who he was, common sense tells me he would have kept him face down. No, Georgie was facing Martin and probably shoved the boy like his girlfriend heard Martin say before his phone went died. GZ was afraid another A$$ hole, was getting away so he was in hot pursue. The sad thing here, is he was far more of a criminal than Trayvon could ever be. He had a felony record and trayvon did not. They checked trayvon's body for drugs, but they didn't check Zimmerman, he definitely should have been checked; any fool bent all following a person because he thinks them supcious is a nut. He had call 911 and the police was on the way, there was no reason for the idiot to leave his truck in the first place. If Trayvon had been a criminal the police would have taken care of it, they did not need George's help. The "Stand your ground law", does not hold true for you pursuing a person, that have no idea who you are, or why you are chasing them. Trayvon I'm sure thought George was a kidnapper or a murderer, how was he to know the idiot was a wannbee cop that could not pass the test for the force. If I was being pursued I'd defend myself too and so would anyone of you on these pages, I'd just hope that I had been the one with a 9mm instead of a can of tea and skittles. GZ made walk, but he will forever have to live with his conscious. I know GZ was angry about the A$$ whipping he was getting, but he bought that one, and shooting Martin in the chest from angry was wrong. We, all, have our views about what happened, but George knows the truth, and so does God. Trayvon is dead but Zimmerman has to live with what he has done, there will be no riots if he gets off, There will be no need, what he has done will come back to haunt him everyday of his life. We kill in battle because we have to, but don't anyone think, that we ever forget. The nightmares and the daymares are always there... Some fools will say it doesn't matter I can live with my guilt, but can you really???

An apparent stalker is following you all of the way home in his vehicle. He is not in uniform to establish his authority. His vehicle is not marked. You fear for your safety as you hurry home. The stalker then exits his vehicle for an obvious confrontation. The man is a definite threat by this time. If you are female, you run screaming to the first apt. with lights that indicates somebody is home.

You are a young agile male. Your stalker is clearly older, overweight and out of shape as he exits his vehicle. You refuse to run for help like a girl. You realize there is something obviously wrong with this guy. He is watching and tracking you. You can't bust butt for home and lead this crazed man to your little brother that is home alone. Your best bet is to double back on him and meet his aggression with your own. You punch him in the nose and knock him to the concrete. My God, he has a gun and he's going for it. You try to wrest control of the gun as you feel that deep and final pain in your chest.

This may have played out differently. None of us will ever know. Young Martin will never be able to tell his story. We only have the word of the killer and a botched police investigation that easily dismissed some witnesses as they depended on some unreliable witnesses to support their actions. I don't fault an unexperienced police force. I don't think they were motivated by racial bigotry.

The facts are that most murderous crimes are clearly committed by blacks on blacks or sometimes blacks on whites. That must never negate the fact that numerous other crimes have proven to be whites on whites and whites on blacks. Each and every case must be judged on it's own merits, regardless of race, in the interest of justice.

All of the facts to date tell me that Zimmerman was a want-to-be cop for a long time. His own criminal history and lack of smarts kept him from realizing that dream. The next best thing was a licence to carry a concealed fire-arm(that should never have been granted because of his record), the stand your ground law and his participation in a neighborhood watch program. In his mind, he became the cop he always wanted to be.

Young Martin was black. That seems to sway the opinion of many. Not me. One of my own white sons developed an attraction to pot. He dressed in baggy jeans and sweatshirts or Hoodies. His musical interest was mostly rap. How many of you can relate to this same situation? Pot is illegal and I forbid him from bringing it into our home. His choice in clothing and music disturbed me as I remembered my own shaggy hair, raggedy jeans and Rock music disturbed my own parents. I grew out of it. So will he.

Young Martin will never get the chance to grow out of his rebellious teens. He could have been my son or yours. We may find fault with some of the actions by his parents. In my opinion, they are very constrained, generous and forgiving compared to the rage and contempt that I would surely use towards the murderer of my son. How 'bout you?

In other words this confused person is no longer a key witness..but another witness with hearsay!

NEXT!

The eyewitness said one completely clear statement, the fat guy was on the bottom being hit by the black guy. If you had a gun, what would you do?

There really was nobody who saw what happen..they might of heard screams..thats' just about it.

Its night..its raining..(its Florida who cares then)!

mike277 sounds like good advice. Take it.

*SMH* Seriously dictionary72- you think it's okay a woman is raped because she was partying? Take women back to the stone ages why don't you. And slightly racists and hateful.. Your rants are rather horrendous and I don't understand why newsvine hasn't ripped your vocal cords yet. Just disgusting to read but what more can I expect from a troll derailing with politics and any black woman partying deserves to be raped BS. AND why couldnt Zimmerman call security or wait for the cops, you lay all the blame on a dead kid.. Once again PATHETIC!

I have followed this case and I see the same comments and ride the fence because we cant say who attacked who, evidence points that Martin had attacked Zimmerman, but then again was he provoked by being followed, was he grabbed, or threatened in some manner.. Did Martin attack Zimmerman for GP (gangster pride as my cousins call it). No one can say besides comparing several different facts and making a good guess..

Looking at the facts, Zimmerman had facial wounds, Martin had knuckle wounds and a bullet hole, we can assume that Martin was laying the punches to Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot Martin.. However we can also say by conversations, Martin was walking away, while Zimmerman was pursuing him and with that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Who was screaming for help, the only witness i have heard now recanted- not sure if it was Zimmerman and i have read articles that stated with of use of voice recognition it was Martin's voice.

My personal opinion is Zimmerman is a woman beating coward with a gun. The gun gives him power and so for gives him the ultimate control. He has been in and out of trouble and I assume this time around he thought he was going to get out of trouble like all the other times. Zimmerman followed when told not to, the kid took on the aggressor and Zimmerman knew he was getting his ass kicked, and to take the control back was by pulling the trigger.. I don't think he went in with intention to pull the trigger, however, I think he went in with the knowledge that at any time he could pull the trigger.

Btw people with mental health issues in our state don't get permits to carry guns, I can see why now.

indeed! not guilty... point is injury was all being done on GZ. he is the only one who can can say the most, but to me his side is more believable.

had he not followed him this would yes have had a diffrent outcome, but still. whats all going to happen is this. because the jury has nothing other than this imho...

Did GZ have the right to follow, TM?

way i see it is, TM saw GZ following him. GZ really doesnt fit the cop look, so he might have set him up thinking bad stuff was going down. So ya, he might have done something suspicious to anyone that could warrant some sort of altercation, in a position that even on the sideline, we know isnt the safest.

some areas, i would agree it might be a good idea to keep a little bit of heat with you, if are within the capacity of the law to be given the right to.

so now lets hear it for those who want to ban, and promote gun/anti-gun laws.

so in all i would have to say, let GZ go, evaluate his C/C permit based on a reputed therapist, at GZ's exspence if he wants to keep it.

there is no witness testimony and we have also heard about the online college scam to obtain free degree's, im even in enrolled in a couple. (ya, seriously) they hold the same stature in our government. even a slope like myself can get them. so calling in a exspert criminologist, i would have to take serious look at actual credentials this person vs the state/local exsaminer, lol.

Why is everyone stopped mentioning the conversation Tray was having with the young lady on the phone. Zimmer invaded young Martin's space and well being.

For instance, if you enter an elevator on the first floor and is the only person there. On the next floor one other person enters and comes and stand close to you, at this point any human will realize their space is being invaded. You back away and the person inches closer. At what point is pushing the person off is your fault because you are the one who made first physical contact.

Whats the big deal?

This witness was under tremendous pressure to go along with the "official Story" a decent honorable person would do and state the reasons that are absolutely plausible and not reliable dark of night not really sure of his statements upon reflection did the honorable action and stated the most plausible statement which is was too dark way to dark and rain for any definite statement on his part: an honest man standing up for the truth and American justice if we truly are going to be a country of law and not prejudices that condone murder.

Thank you for your honesty and integrity you help to bolster our tarnished image of a land even a country we must say for on the behalf of current and future generations that The United States is truly a beacon of hope for all the world to behold: The United States is a country of laws - no one is above the law in these United States.

PS: we must over look the Scooter Libby's, the Dick Cheney's the Oliver Norths even presidents Nixon, Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton too many financial Wall Street Graft banksters to mention...trillions missing and not one Wall Street Billionaire under indictment or in jail not one....fellow citizens...men and women above the law - the law for us and then the "get out of jail card" for them the 1% their families and friends and their so innocent pledged to protect the consumer I refer to our mega corporations and all those tax breaks - we owe it to them to be above the law...two countries two set of laws...

And yes I have been on the losing end of a fight years ago, and I was on the bottom. However I kicked up between my attackers legs with enough force so that he bent over double to hold his testicles. I then got up and kicked him as hard as I could in the ribs, which made him fall to the ground and gave him a second kick to the head.

He never bothered me again. So I know what it is to be attacked and the force necessary to stop an attack when one is on the bottom. We were young about 15 or so and that was 50 years ago. There were no cell phones and in the woods next to the ball parks, one was alone and used his wits and abilities. Had I bat or a branch of a tree, I would have used one of those too. But as he was on the ground, moaning and bleeding, I saw no need to inflict more damage. Strange but true, once you kick the s*** out of someone, they don't come back for more.

the stand your ground law and his participation in a neighborhood watch program.

There was no Neighborhood Watch program in his community. He had not been trained to do so and had no authority to pursue anyone. It is also against Neighborhood Watch policy to carry a firearm or to engage anyone. A neighborhood watch official OBSERVES and REPORTS to the police. His options as a concerned citizen were to call the police and let them handle it or go all vigilante... and we definitely know which route he took. The point at which he left his vehicle is the point at which he lost his "stand your ground" protection. If you pursue another person in an unmarked vehicle and disembark the vehicle with a weapon to follow on foot you are the instigator. All Zimmerman did was afford Martin the "stand your ground" protections as he created the situation that resulted in Martin's death. Angela Corey has enough evidence to get a 2nd Degree Murder conviction, if he pleas he may get manslaughter.

Who was on top at any moment is irrelevant. If Zimmerman, knowing he was armed and using deadly force was foreseeable, initiated a confrontation resulting in the use of that weapon, then it wasn't self defense.

I can't walk down a dark alley, begging to be mugged, only to shoot an assailant to death.

@ dictionary72 #1.44...

your low life bitter attack on trayvon and his parents are an indication of how much your bad experience with blacks has caused you to possess the irrational attitude of a rabid racist who is quick to label most african americans as violent thugs.

how many males do you know in their late teens that would react to being followed in the same way they would when they were small children? what was trayvon supposed to do yell 'fire'?

however, the fact that trayvon did try running to get away does indicate he was trying to avoid confrontation so obviously his parents taught him something.

yeah, dictionary, running through the complex while talking to his girlfrnd on his cell phone, really sounds like he wanted gangland respect and an opportunity to kill whitie. do you know how completely asinine that sounds?

what does trayvon have to do with some blacks you saw shoplifting in a store. trayvon was filmed buying skittles and iced tea in 7-11 and he stole nothing.

All these cry babies about poor Martin make me sick. Seeing blacks shop lift in the stores, being present at a smash and grab at Sears, being threatened in a hospital by a black, having my car surrounded by blacks and being rocked until I got the cell phone out and called 911, getting ridiculous calls by blacks demanding jobs when I put advertisements in the paper for help, "I ain"t goin all the way down dere, til I know I got the job! I ain't comin in for no fuc***g interview!" Really doesn't reinforce a positive view.

what is it about you that has attracted all of this negativity from blacks? people like you who want to label most blacks as ignorant hood-rats, thugs and criminals "make me sick".

if i allowed myself to come to inane nonsensical conclusions as you do, i could convince myself that most whites are racist as you seem to be, are serial killers, child killers, child molesters, ones who abduct and murder young women, constantly killing or hiring someone to kill their husbands or wives.

are you sick yet?

The Quacked One

Only thing about it is the FACT that nobody -- NOBODY -- saw or heard the beginning of the fight.

NOBODY can say definitively whether it was Trayvon or George who started it all, yet all you "Zimmerman was only defending himself against a thug" people have decided to be Judge, Jury and Executioner, with Trayvon the guilty party.

Including yourself, but you think Zimmerman is guilty. Sharpton ensured that all blacks became the judge jury and executioner against Zimmerman from day one. I’m waiting for your explanation of the black panthers putting a hit on Zimmerman! Look up GULLIBLE in the dictionary!

Since when does one doing the punching call for help? If his parents had spent as much energy on parenting as they have on this, their son would still be alive.

I can’t wait until Zimmerman sues the parents for defamation of character for every penny they made off of the death of their son…despicable!

Originally, witness #6 stated that it was Zimmerman calling for help.

Now this witness has changed his or her story.

Maybe this person changed his or her story for fear of being charged with perjury.

@dictionary72 and 45charlie for people that love to call people names you should spend you time doing some research instead of being trolls. I am thankful that people like you are not allowed to be judge, jury, and executioner.

#1 Why did GZ not roll down the window and ask TM what he was doing when "He is coming back, he is checking me out" Therefore TM did give GZ a chance to confront him and say "hey I am the watch captain", but GZ was scared to do that, even though he was on the phone with the police. It was only after TM gave GZ a chance to say something that TM decided to walk quickly or run. Maybe TM thought GZ was a mexican/spanish gang member that was calling up his buddies for back up. If you believe TM's GF's story then TM was the first one to actually open his mouth and say anything before the fight broke out. Why was GZ the responsible armed ADULT not the first one to open his mouth and talk?

#2 When did TM put the hood of his hoodie up? Did he have it up or was it only after GZ had started following him that he put it up? It was only after he was being followed, so GZ could see his face before he made the call.

#3 Even as a watch captain in a gated community you do not have the authority to stop, detain, arrest, search, etc. anyone. You may ask for ID and ask them to leave if they refuse, but that is it. You do not have the right to FORCE them to anything unless you caught them in the act and even then a "citizen's arrest" is not the smartest thing to do depending on the situation. GZ did not catch TM in the act of anything before he called the police. That is what the police are for, and the reason we pay taxes.

#4 GZ had 2 1/2 minutes to get back to truck. Hard to say that TM circled around to get the jump on GZ when GZ had 2 1/2 minutes to get back to his truck. TM was on his phone talking to his GF and making noise, it is hard to sneak up on someone or lie in ambush when making noise. Even an old lady like yourself could make it back to the truck in 2 1/2 minutes.

#5 What 911 tapes show that TM was approaching GZ with his hands in his waistband? Hoodies have two pockets right in front by the waistband, a perfect place to store some candy and a can of ice tea. The only 911 calls were made after the fight started. Who called 911 BEFORE the fight? No one is who. GZ called the non-emergency line, TM was on his phone with his GF up until the fight broke out and less then 10 seconds later the first 911 call started. Therefore both 45charlie and dictionary72 must be on something better then weed, they must be on those good doctor prescribed pills. Hate to break it to you but, but pills are abused by more people then any other form of drug besides caffeine. The founding fathers grew and smoked weed, George Washington had one of the largest hemp farms in the U.S. You would think that 2 older people would know their history better, but considering you cannot even get the facts right in this case I am not surprised.

#6 How did GZ and TM get close enough to each other to talk to each other right before the fight broke out? Was is TM or GZ that snuck up? Who was on the phone making sound/noise again? I find it HARD to believe that GZ was ambushed or snuck up on by someone talking on the phone, that is B.S.

#7 Maybe TM did not want someone that was following him to know where he lived? Maybe since he was scared he ran past his father's house (not like he lived there for long and knew the area like the back of his hand, all the condos look the same too) before he even knew it and was not going to turn around right then since he was being chased. Maybe that is why he circled back because he knew that he had ran past the house, but GZ was still there 2 1/2 minutes later when TM came back. Why was GZ still there 2 1/2 minutes later? Maybe had GZ not been there 2 1/2 minutes later TM would have just went back to his father's house. Maybe had GZ not gotten out of his truck TM would have just went home. Maybe had GZ not been so OBVIOUS he could have followed TM to the address. You would think that someone with "training" and that had taken classes on the subject would be better at following people without being seen. GZ was seen by TM right before the fight broke out, who was stalking who again?

#8 What are children told to do in case of an emergency? Call for help? What did one person do once the fight broke out, call for help. Could TM have been on top of GZ screaming for help? Yes

I keep telling myself that I am not going to post on this story anymore until the trial, but I keep finding narrow minded people that need educating. If either of you knew anything about police training you would know that police go through an exercise after a pursuit or chase to CALM down and to be able to THINK and ACT LOGICALY. Do you think GZ did this after his chase? Even if GZ did not have his past history, a logical, rational person can be irrational and do illogical things after a chase/pursuit. "What are you doing here" does not seem like a very logical or rational follow up question to "Hey man, why are you following me for?". Why did GZ not say something like "I am the neighborhood watch captain", of course if GZ had really wanted to talk to TM he could have done that back at the very beginning when TM came to check him out. GZ acted in self defense...B.S.

Martin should have called the cops telling them that someone was following him and continue on his way.

If Martin was white, he probably would have. Being a black kid in Florida, he knew he'd get nothing but more trouble if he involved police. Sorry, but that is just a fact.

We all know that Trayvon's parents were the ones screaming on TV.

No one on this media board really knows enough to seriously judge who was guilty and who was at fault in this case period. If Travon has no injuries showing that zimmerman in fact was the only one getting beaten up than that shows zimmerman was defending himself period. If Travon has injuries as well and even if that vocal tape doesn't scientifically prove it was Travon, anyone can tell by the voice it was him yelling for help, then zimmerman should be charged. Although I would think he would be charged with manslaughter, it was definitely media and politics that got him charged with man 2 because I don't see how you can say he intended to kill the kid, if that was the case he would have no injuries and would have just shot him before he even got close enough to punch him.

I always thought neighborhood watch was done by people in their own neighborhoods. As such they should be knowledgeable who lives there or are having visitors. I just don't understand why he did not do what the police told him to do. Which was not to follow Treyvon.

Well, Terminator Martin did not pack much of a punch because if he was on top punching Zimmerman in the face, then Zimmerman's face should have shown clearer markings. Too bad for Martin, he should have chopped one to Zimmerman's neck, then he would be alive today facing murder charges because he did not have a judge in the family.

Zimmerman had a broken nose. How much more "markings" do you want. It is unfortunate that Martin had to die, but I guess he was stupid enough to attack an armed man. The prosecutor really flubbed this up with murder 2. If Zimmerman was out to kill Martin, the gun would've been out before he was attacked. The fact that Martin was not shot until AFTER Zimmerman had a broken nose clearly demonstrates that Zimmerman was not intending or trying to kill Martin.

How do you know Zimmerman did not pull out his gun the second he decided to run after Martin? How do you know that Martin stopped running because he saw the nut had a gun in his hands? How do you know that Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest, a shot meant to kill, as Martin charged him (Football player) and that Zimmerman's scratches were obtained as Martins body hit him and that the screams heard were Martin's desperate cry for help as he was dying?

I like the comment about with Treyvon on top that maybe he was holding down the other guy and yellig for help. I thought with the pictures of Zimmerman didn't look much like someone was beaten too badly. I was sat on by my ex boyfriend one time and beaten and I had an obviously broken nose, a black eye and various other bruises on my face and upper body. There may be things we can't see in the pictures of Zimmerman, but he doesn't look like he's in too bad of shape.

I am amazed by how many people post ridiculous comments! First of all GZ was told not to follow TM which was his first mistake. If he had remained in his car TM would still be alive. TM felt like his life was in jeopardy and ultimately he was right. Hell yeah I am going to fight if some strange person is following me in the dark. So, it is TM fault I guess that GZ was a punk and he was getting his ass whipped. If GZ would have stated that he was the community watchman there would have been no need for a fight and another senseless death could have been avoided!

No matter what anyone says...Zimmerman is a vigilante none of the hotchas would want in their neighborhood. Ask any white man what he would do if Zimmerman stalked him. I dare you to find a single white guy who'd stand by and let a vigilante stalk him without defending himself.

Unless you all have begun to approve of vigilantism in your own neighborhoods, one person is dead and the self-appointed vigilante is alive. What other conclusion can anyone possibly draw from that?

Anyone with brains knows that a vigilante has a death mentality at its deepest core. This is why we put them in jail. Zimmerman wasn't defending himself. Not when he was armed and his opponent wasn't.

Give up the attempts at trying to play down what Zimmerman did. Do that and no one in this country will be safe from another copy cat vigilante who arrives in your neighborhood...even if you ARE armed to the teeth. He'll shoot first and you'll end up like Martin.

Multiple witnesses changed their story at least a little. Funny that this is the only one MSNBC publicizes.

Jibaro, what you propose goes against every bit of evidence we have available to us. From Zimmerman's call to police we can tell A) Zimmerman stopped pursuit almost immediately after the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that."; B) Zimmerman had lost Martin (Zimmerman says "Oh shoot. I don't know where this kid is.") That Zimmerman lost track of Martin is corroborated by Martin's girlfriend.; C) Zimmerman is headed back to his truck to meet with responding officers. Eyewitnesses also place Martin on top of Zimmerman in the struggle throwing "MMA-style punches". If you are going to comment, please have at least a cursory knowledge of what you are talking about.

Mary, as noted in the paragraph above, your fantasy that Martin was just holding Zimmerman down is just hogwash. Multiple eyewitnesses have Martin actively beating Zimmerman. Also try to imagine how differently you might of felt if the beating you took was at the hands of a complete stranger who you had no idea of their ultimate intentions. How would you have felt if that stranger had broken your nose was now slamming your head on a concrete sidewalk. You know, it's usually that last slam of the back of your head against cement that will fracture your skull and turn you into a vegetable.

"After receiving many threats, I am no longer sure of my story..."

Jibaro

How do you know Zimmerman did not pull out his gun the second he decided to run after Martin? How do you know that Martin stopped running because he saw the nut had a gun in his hands? How do you know that Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest, a shot meant to kill, as Martin charged him (Football player) and that Zimmerman's scratches were obtained as Martins body hit him and that the screams heard were Martin's desperate cry for help as he was dying?

And how do YOU know? YOU DON'T! Stop speculating! Are you really THAT desperate?

Possibly the reason the witness changed his account of who's voice he heard from GZ to "I'm not sure" could be due to another witness stating that the voice she heard sounded young. So what? GZ is only 32 and the witness was in her 70's. Of course his voice would sound young and most cries of help sound young as it is out of desperation and usually a response from your youth.

I read the 183 page evidence report including witness statments. He did have a laceration on the back of his head, and his nose was flattened and possibly broke. Some people saw the video of him coming into the police station that night and couldn't see blood coming from his nose or the laceration on the back of his head because of poor quality video and it did not show the back of his head. He also recieved treatment from the paramedics I'm sure they stopped the bleeding from his nose.

For all those who think the death of TM could have been avoided if GZ didn't follow him after 911 dispatcher said he didn't need to follow him any more. GZ was positioning hmself to meet the police when he was attacked by TM.

Tm was shot at point blank range. within few inches as the powder residue was on his hooded garment. The examiner could dispell all doubt of how he was shot by explaining the angle of entry. If the Mickey Mouse Media was exclude from this trial it would end sooner with it being trown out of court due to overwhemlming evidence of self defence.

It is a sad story a young man shot dead, another trying to be a good citizen and another trumped up racial fiasco.

All could have been avoided by TM's parents doing a better job at raising him.

There is one thing for certain that is apparent from the posts on here, none of us were there. It is hilarious to read these posts of the Monday morning judges on this vine.

Those against Zimmerman all say, if he hadn't done this or hadn't done that, Martin will still be alive. Put the shoe on the other foot, if Martin hadn't been in the neighborhood, he still be alive also! If wasn't dressed as a thug, he might still be alive. All specualtion.

That neighborhood has been the target of multiple burglaries, ever see a video of persons robbing a store? What are they wearing? Zimmerman did profile Martin, and had just cause. And it went downhill from there.

The only reason Zimmerman is being charged is because of the pressure of the media, the White House, the Race baiters Al and Jesse. The Sanford police department might have gotten it right at the beginning. But nooooo, the Martin family saw their son as an angel who was shot down, and played the race card. Martin was far from being an angel. And Zimmerman was far from being level headed.

Thus we have a tragedy.

Zimmerman is screwed no matter what. He will be acquitted of the charges, but because of the media pressure and because the race card, he will be charged by the feds of civil rights violation.

I'd probably change my story too if my family and I were threatened by the Black Panthers.

What PATHETIC reporting.

Headline: Key witness in Trayvon Martin shooting changed story

Story: "The witness stuck to his account that he saw Martin, 17, straddling Zimmerman and pinning him to the ground before Martin was shot."

Yes, it's entirely reasonable to think the person on the ground, being beaten, is shouting for help. When was the last time you saw a fight when the person was beating the crap of the person begins to call for help. Help for what, for a brick to finish the job?

The main stream media, and MSNBC are guilty of journalistic malpractice and their conduct has been despicable. I'm just surprised they didn't show a photo of Martin in Kindergarten, or report that he once earned a B in Phys Ed. Anything possible to continue to fan the flames of this race baiting story. If Martin suckerpunched Zimmerman and assaulted him so viciously, as reported by eyewitnesses, then Martin got what he deserved.

MSNBC is out of control, reporting Martin was shot from "intermediate range" without even bothering to determine just WHAT THAT MEANS. Is Intermediate 10-20 feet or 6-12 inches?

Instead of bothering to report facts, it's much more important to MSNBC to fan the flames with asinine reports.

.

Both the state and the defense should be extremely excited. Looks like lots of MSNBC fans witnessed this incident.

I'de love to hear the audio of the "follow-up" witness interview.....or more like interrogation...." Are you 100% sure it was Zimmerman calling for help ??...."Is it possible it was Martin ??"... "How could you tell who it was ??...it was pretty dark out"...."So, it is a slight possibility it was Martin yelling....I see"

BREAKING NEWS.....Witness changes his story !!!!!Zimmerman is Guilty !!!!.....What a croc !!!!

The problem with "stand your ground" is that within a misunderstood situation, someone can end up dead. I've no doubt that in this case, each thought the other the aggressor. Ultimately, Zimmerman is to blame; he disregarded instructions to wait for police and delivered the fatal blow. Trayvon's already paid a greater price than he deserved.

Two of you have pointed out flawed "facts". GZ was NOT a felon; he wouldn't be allowed to own a gun, much less have a CC permit. The same with the claim of "mental illness". Anxiety is not a mental illness, neither is depression. They are easily treated disorders and neither tends to contribute to violent action. Sounds to me like you are just some more Brady Campaign trolls.

Chill out. There is not enough evidence to convict. You may as well deal with that fact.

First of all, between the two, Zimmerman is the one with the history of violence. Felony assault on a police officer. Resisting arrest with violence. Resisting arrest without violence. Domestic violence charge, and you have a former co-worker who said that Zimmerman had a violent temper demonstrated by picking and throwing a drunk woman at a party in which he was supposed to be providing security for.

It's most likely that Zimmerman, filled with rage first shoved Martin because he though he was a criminal. Unfortunately, he proceeded to get a beat down because he start a fight with someone willing to fight back. Keep in mind people, that Zimmerman was a complete stranger to Martin and I have no doubt that Martin was in fear for his safety. He already tried to get away from Zimmerman, only to have this stranger get out of his car to continue following him. During their confrontation, they ended up on the ground and Zimmerman pulled his gun. After seeing this gun, Martin began screaming for help. During the 40 or so seconds that we can hear on the 911 call, Martin is attempting to keep Zimmerman from pointing his gun at him. Zimmerman ultimately wins this struggle and shoots the kid in the chest. Of course this is all speculation on my part, but it's just as likely a scenario as any other. We won't know the truth because of the sloppy police work of the Sanford police. I'd like to know if Martin's fingerprints are anywhere on the gun and if there was any gun powder residue on his hands.

No matter, in the end Zimmerman had the ultimate responsibility of avoiding this situation. Anyone who knows anything about concealed carry is that you have a higher responsibility because you now have the power to take someone's life in your hands. You don't have the right to go charging into a contentious situation as Zimmerman did. All Zimmerman did was escalate tensions by aggressively going after Martin. He should have stayed in his vehicle and let the police handle the situation.

I'm speculating here so don't go insane.Suppose z catches up with TM with gun in hand,TM feels cornered and starts swinging knocks Z down TM fighting for his life loses control of Z and is shot dead.At this point in time Z has had plenty of time and coaching for the statements he has made and of course his family like any other family will back him.I'm NOT saying this is how it went down but it is a possibility

STOP. JUST STOP. It was all the speclating that turned this into a media circus. TM's parents went out before the body was cold to copy right his name. Jesse and Al jumped on the hate train and there they went. GZ innocent or guilty is ruined for life. All his community involvement is history and he and his family are receiving death threats, The evidence will all be brought to trial. ALL be brought to trial. Because of the speculation there are Haters who will never acept the verdict no matter who is found at fault.

Yes GZ could have stayed in his car and gone home leaving his neighbors to fend for themselves.TM could have run home and told his Dad he was being followed. Didn't happen. Can't change what happened. We can be reasonable adults and let the courts do their job.

Dictionary, I love how you are so sure that Trayvon was the aggressor, but here is where your argument is flawed. Zimmerman was the aggressor simply because he did not comply with the 911 operator, He was the aggressor in that he confronted Trayvon when he knew the Police were on their way. He was trying to be a cop, not his job. Zimmerman's job was to observe report, not confront. Zimmerman was at fault for not following proper neighborhood watch protocol. Oh Yeah Trayvon also has the right to stand his ground. Just Saying!

When one chooses to dress,
Live and, act like a ghetto thug, one should also expect to die like one. Case
close; we do well to remember that the worst gangbangers are usually teenagers.
TM was not some innocent well behave little kid, he was spelled from 3
different schools, and he also beat the crap out ZM. Enough said, and again
case close.

I agree with Brett294987, nobody knows all the facts yet. But we will as soon as Nancy Grace gives them to us. :D

Why isn't Zimmerman's lawyer playing the race card, he's 1/2 Peruvian and that makes him a minority?

it appears no one caught the most important part of the witness statement, Zimmerman was on his back on the ground, Martin was on top of him, that folks is a classic jury instruction on self defense .(since there are no other witnesses to see how the fight started,), the prosecutor overcharged, bent to political pressure, instead of being a professional.

What do you call it when 2 guys stand their ground. Mutual combat. Zimmermans role was to observe and report. He had no business following any one anywhere. It was preventable by him.

A Kangaroo Court of public opinion will NOT REPLACE the jury.

It is suggested everyone chill out and wait for the jury's decision. It would be nice for the media to chill out. Another suggestion, next article on this case....don't make any comments and see if the media continues to publish articles on this case while others go un-reported.

The media is once again manufacturing "big news."

The media have acted like prostitutes with this story.

cooch - Bring your fists to a gunfight? Are you suggesting that martin was high on PCP?

Rufusthedog, just wondering, how doe one just observe and report if they don't follow?

Cmbmsquick, just curious, isn't the one on top the one in control? Perhaps you can enlighten us on how the aggressor can be on the bottom? After all, in wrestling, the one on the bottom is the one in trouble. When police make an arrest are they in control when they are on the bottom?

Like sands through the hour glass so are the Days of our Lives.

Again.....Here is the Florida Statute:

"The new law codified in Florida Statutes 776.013(3)(2006) states:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Nothing Zimmerman was doing was "Unlawful Activity"...He was walking or standing on a sidewalk of the "Common Area" of the Community he lived in. Looking to see where the person he was telling the Police about went was not unlawful. He was the ONLY one that knew the Police were just minutes away from meeting him at that location....When asked by the dispatcher to give his home address, Zimmerman started to give it to him and hesitated saying..."I don't want to say it out loud, I dont know where this guy is"....They made arrangements to meet the responding officers where he was, the call ended......Moments later the deadly encounter began.

Many of you are suggesting that Zimmerman must have thought something along the lines of...." I better shoot this guy quick before the cops get here....cause I just feel like killing someone tonight"....

"Ultimately, Zimmerman is to blame; he disregarded instructions to wait for police and delivered the fatal blow." - HN

"Zimmerman was the aggressor simply because he did not comply with the 911 operator," - cmbmsquick

These statements are lies. In the tape recording of Zimmerman's call to the police, there are 3 things that are clear about Zimmerman following Martin: A) Zimmerman stopped pursuing Martin almost immediately after the dispatcher said "You don't need to do that."; B) Zimmerman had already lost track of Martin saying "Oh shoot. I don't know where this kid is.". (This is also corroborated by Martin's girlfriends story -- which has also greatly changed, BTW); C) Zimmerman was heading back to his vehicle to meet responding officers. The area of the altercation is such that with the apparent volume of Zimmerman's voice, if Martin was ducked down hiding, he very likely would have heard Zimmerman talking to the cops -- perhaps that was the problem.

Add to that the fact that an average man walking at an average pace (> 5 ft/sec) would make it from the community's gate to Martin's door (~850 ft) in 2 3/4 minutes. The Zimmerman call was over 4 minutes. If Martin was simply walking home -- even if Zimmerman connected to the police the moment Martin crossed the gate -- Martin would have been safely in his house a full minute and a half before Zimmerman even got off the phone with the cops -- and that's without any running. Using Google maps you can see that the layout of the community shows that it is almost all straight lines and angles. There are only two turns from the gate to Martin's house. Again you can see by the layout of the community that if Martin had been simply walking home he would have been outside of Zimmerman's sight-line nearly a minute before Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle to follow. This shows that Martin wasn't "just walking home" and also wasn't just running home. With Martin ahead of Zimmerman, all he had to do as a 17 year old football player was to beat a slightly pudgy guy running straight home...if that was Martin's objective.

The idea that Zimmerman should have just stayed in his vehicle is also idiotic. If I see somebody suspicious in my neighborhood -- of any color -- you can be damn sure that I will make sure they know I see them. If that means I leave the relative security of my home or my car to do that, then so be it...that's what I'll do. To condemn a person for doing that is ridiculous.

Oh yes MSNBC, I totally concur with your analysis of the event.... a young innocent black boy, who looks very much like Obama, was screaming for help as he rained his fist down on top of a nosy neighborhood crime watching Zimmerman. Makes perfect sense doesn't it.

Score 1 for the Lawyers; Justice 0.

Irene and Walker which part of my monologue don't you like, Martin not beating up on Zimmerman, Martin calling the police, Martin talking to Zimmermand or Martin going to his father's house and calling the police?

Of course Martin's parents didn't teach him how to handle a situation like that. Look what happened. The parents are separated as most black parents are. Sharpeton and the other lawyers in the Brawley case were sued and lost. One lawyer lost his licence. Not one of the participants apologized to the six innocent WHITE PEOPLE who were accused and found innocent.

The black community has a terrible problem with crime against themselves and crime against other races. There is not one black voice telling the children how to act and be model citizens. Look at today's headline one black man fathered 30 children from 11 black women. Psychologically you are going to have 30 psychologically damaged children growing up to 30 black psychologically damaged adults.

Yes it is time to take the gloves off and tell the black community to take care of its own and grow up! Become responsible children and adults.

It is being done on small scales. Urban Prep Charter Academy from Chicago, gets all its graduating seniors into accredited 4 year colleges. Blacks are not inferior intellectually or intelligence wise. The majority of the parents are incredibly selfish and irresponsible. Having a child doesn't stop the responsibility of being a parent. There is a very long tough hard 18-22 year road ahead.

Truth is that sex is not for procreation. Sex is for having children and then giving the parent the responsibility of teaching and taking care of the new life so it can be a good citizen in our society.

Martin was not a good citizen in our society. Good citizens don't use marijuana, don't get suspended three times from school, have no job future or prospects and don't go around beating up people. You don't like what I said, tough s***!

My two children don't smoke marijuana, both started businesses, both I nurtured and taught to be good citizens, both have children to the people they married and both do not go around dressed like thugs, beating up people.

It is your leader Jesse Jackson who said: "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."

Dictionary72:

There are several elements of Zimmerman's behavior that created this entire situation:

• He followed Trayvon in spite of being told by the 911 operator that he did not need to do that.
• His description of Trayvon asd being suspicious, up to something, reaching in his pants etc. were all prejudgements that proved to be untrue. Yes, Trayvon di have a trace of marijuana in his system, but in my opinion that is irrelevant. Although preceribed drugs, I understadn that Zimmerman was taking uppers and downers himself.
• Trayvon's girlfriend says that she heard Trayvon say "Why are you following me?" Then she heard Zimmerman say" What are you doing here?" THis is critical because that would have been the appropriate time to explain to Trayvon what Zimmerman was doing. He did not. He asked a question that certainly in today's enviornment could be seen as a threat. What did Zimmermna mean? Was Zimmerman in a gang that was protecting his turf? Who knows. We do not that Zimmerman does not even claim to have identified himself.
• The police report states that Zimmerman followed Trayvon and that Trayvon was clearly on the path back to where he was staying.
• Zimmerman claims to have been beaten within an inch of his life, yet he was able to muster up hte strength to get a gun with Trayvon on top of him and shoot Trayvon. Huh?
• All Zimmerman had to do was wait for the police to come and handle it.

When it is all said and done, we do not know what was in Zimmerman's mind, but he could have been setting Trayvon up for this shoot. But, maybe not. What we do know is that an adult male with a 9mm in his pants went out and engaged Trayvon in some way, shape or form and An innocent teenager ended up dead.

The fact that Trayvon is not here to offer his version of events requires that all questions be explored and satifactorily answered. Just teh fact that the arresting officers, with experience in this kind of thing, did not believe Zimmerman should be enough to give us all pause.

Personally, I don't see how Zimmerman should get anything less than manslaugter.

Hopefully, this case will be instructive for all cop wannabe vigilantes who want to dispens their wild west brand of justice teh next time they see someone "suspicious."

Were I the prosecutor, I wouold hammer away at Zimmerman on why he thougt Trayvon was suspicious. We know now that Trayvon was doing nothing that merited his suspicion. He wasn't in the act of committina crime, leaving a crime, looking into windows, walking on private grounds, or anything else. He was going to where he belonged with some Skittles and iced tea while talking to his girlfriend on a cellphone. A teenage behavior goes, that is pretty threatening and suspicious. Are you kidding me?

No, Geroge Zimmerman determined from the beginning that Trayvon was a criminal. Thus his aggressive behavior. That action was taken by Zimmerman. No Zimmerman, no dead Trayvon. Simple as that.

By the way, it is altogether possible that Zimmerman threatened Trayvon either verbally or physically. Personally, I think that is what happened. Then when Trayvon got the best of him, he shot him.

I know, if Trayvon were your son you would be leading a protest march to exonerate Zimmerman.

Al, you just don't get it. Yes, Zimmermann was dumb but that is not the same as a murder.
Just chill and the courts will sort it out. Time to give this one a rest for awhile.
Savvy?

Why does MSNBC keep using the 12 year old picture of Trayvon? Racebaiting? Why did they lighten the picture? Why is Obama not defined as a White-African as Zimmerman is a White-Hispanic? Agenda? How blind is the LEFT?

Hispanic is not even a race, it is a cultural reference. An Hispanic could be from one or more of three races. People don't even know what they are bigoted towards.

Jeez Louise, this is ridiculous. When the dispatcher said following TM wasn't necessary, GZ said OK, and his heavy breathing was reduced, signifying he had stopped his pursuit. Not that it makes a difference, GZ's neighborhood had been victimized by people matching TM's description recently. He had every right to follow him.

GZ also told the dispatcher he had lost sight of TM, giving TM over a minute, according to the timeline, to make the short 15 second jog back to his house. The only way the shooting happens is if TM feels like a punk for running away and decides to go back and attack GZ.

TM's girlfriend's statement isn't reliable. She's biased and didn't make a statement until after she was coached.

Witnesses said TM was on top, throwing punches. It's was most likley GZ calling for help. Evidence on TM clothes say he was shot point blank. TM was wearing two thick layers of clothing that may have altered the autopsy results.

GZ had a broken nose, black eyes, a cut scalp, and a sore back. TM had a cut on his knuckles and a gunshot wound.

TM was a thief (caught with stolen women's jewelery and burlary tools at school) and drug dealer (according to his friend's Twitter account) and had been suspended from school 3 times that year. Reading his tweets paint a clear picture of what he was: a thug.

Mary-2046384 You like being hurt and being a masochist? You like getting your nose broken and eyes blackened? You haven't told us yet if you like having your head slammed into a concrete side walk? I am breathlessly waiting for your answers!

I do have a bit of news for you everything you said is illegal. No one has the right to touch you, give you black eyes or break your nose. If you want someone to do that to you, you have grave psychological problems that require the aide of a psychiatrist. Either way whether you allowed it to happen or wanted it to happen disqualifies you from commenting. If you didn't want it to happen, then you should have reported the person and it appears you didn't. If you wanted it to happen then you are mentally ill and also not allowed to state your opinions.

It is evident here, that Mr. Zimmerman did not ask to have his nose broken, get two black eyes and have his head slammed into the sidewalk. He could not stop Martin from doing it as Martin attacked him so he took the gun he legally owned and shot him.

Glad that you will not be on the jury. You would probably state that Mr. Zimmerman demanded that Martin attack him. Jesus isn't MSNBC.COM great. A very ridiculous stated is not collapsed but all the thoughtful, considered opinions are!

Al-2739446 You would have let Martin kill you when you had a gun on you? I can kill you in one second. I can push the bones of your nose up into your brain or I can raise you head up and slam it down hard on the concrete sidewalk. Which do you prefer? Which method of execution would you wait for?

Speak up AL! All the world wants to hear your reply! I am breathlessly waiting for an answer. Or if you had a gun would you shot your attacker who is ruthlessly hurting you and in any second kill you?

Come on Al "THIS IS YOUR LIFE!" we are talking about. Quick make your decision, you may have a second to live!

BTW, talk about a changed story. Martin's girlfriend's story has gone from the phone going dead immediately when the scuffle ensued to now her being able to hear Martin calling out "get off, get off" even though eyewitness accounts show that it was Martin on top of Zimmerman.

Trayvon was in the middle of a 10-Day Suspension from school.....that's 2 weeks, with at least 1 weekend in between....His father made him come to Sanford, getting him out of the hood in Miami....He's already ticked-off about being there, no booty-calls for days, running low on weed, Girlfriend may be not so trustworthy....I don't believe a word of her everchanging "phonecall" recounts....I'll bet she was egging Trayvon on,"Don't be letting that ___— get all up in your business" ....She'll never tell the truth about what they were saying on the phone...maybe she just broke up with him....found a new thug while he was away....Seems this Trayvon may have had a lot of pent up energy and went all MMA and took it out on Zimmerman....

That's as good a "fairytale" as the one the Prosecutor came up with...."Stalked, "Profiled", Racist"

Ya see, you can take some facts, mix it up with some theories add in a little pure speculation, some bias and you can come up with a scenario for just about anything.....Just like the " Oh, So Special Prosecutor" and her "Investigators" did......They didn't even interview Zimmerman themselves, yet signed the Probable Cause Documents.....After they were altered by other staff....Alan Dershowitz, says she's guilty of Prosecutorial Misconduct.....

"Dershowitz: No Jury Would Convict Zimmerman Of Murder Unless Afraid ‘New Black Panthers Might Kill Them’"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dershowitz-no-jury-would-convict-zimmerman-of-murder-unless-afraid-new-black-panthers-might-kill-them/

cmbmsquick show me proof that Zimmerman went up to Martin and said anything. Remember this is a gated community. There are rules for the protection of the residents. There is a citizen's watch. You made up a story out of thin air. Zimmerman was observing Martin and waiting for the police. Martin turned around and attacked physically Zimmerman. Now try telling your version to the police and jury and contradict all the other people who saw it happen and the telephone call.

Martin had options to avoid a confrontation. He could have called the police, TALK to Zimmerman or go to his father's home, call the police or wait for the police.

It is bigots like you who cause problems. Were you in on the Tawana Brawley case too, testifying for her?

Al...

"He followed Trayvon in spite of being told by the 911 operator that he did not need to do that."

Lie. In the tape recording of Zimmerman's call to the police, there are 3 things that are clear about Zimmerman following Martin: A) Zimmerman stopped pursuing Martin almost immediately after the dispatcher said "You don't need to do that."; B) Zimmerman had already lost track of Martin saying "Oh shoot. I don't know where this kid is.". (This is also corroborated by Martin's girlfriends story -- which has also greatly changed, BTW); C) Zimmerman was heading back to his vehicle to meet responding officers.

"His description of Trayvon asd being suspicious, up to something, reaching in his pants etc. were all prejudgements that proved to be untrue."

Lie. An average man walking at an average pace (> 5 ft/sec) would make it from the community's gate to Martin's door (~850 ft) in 2 3/4 minutes. The Zimmerman call was over 4 minutes. If Martin was simply walking home -- even if Zimmerman connected to the police the moment Martin crossed the gate -- Martin would have been safely in his house a full minute and a half before Zimmerman even got off the phone with the cops -- and that's without any running. Using Google maps you can see that the layout of the community shows that it is almost all straight lines and angles. There are only two turns from the gate to Martin's house. Again you can see by the layout of the community that if Martin had been simply walking home he would have been outside of Zimmerman's sight-line nearly a minute before Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle to follow. This shows that Martin wasn't "just walking home" and also wasn't just running home. If he wasn't just walking home, he was likely doing something that would be considered suspicious, like meandering around in the rain looking into peoples' houses as Zimmerman stated in his initial call to police.

"Trayvon's girlfriend says that she heard Trayvon say "Why are you following me?" Then she heard Zimmerman say" What are you doing here?" THis is critical because that would have been the appropriate time to explain to Trayvon what Zimmerman was doing. He did not. He asked a question that certainly in today's enviornment could be seen as a threat."

Wrong. Even if we accept Martin's girlfriend's statement at face value -- her story has changed by the way -- this would show that Martin in fact initiated contact, not Zimmerman. And the question "What are you doing here?" even in "today's environment" is certainly not a threat.

"The police report states that Zimmerman followed Trayvon and that Trayvon was clearly on the path back to where he was staying."

Lie. Please see my response to your lie #2. Martin would have been fairly far ahead of Zimmerman with the path to home clear. With Martin ahead of Zimmerman, all he had to do as a 17 year old football player was to beat a slightly pudgy guy running straight home...if that was Martin's objective. It is obvious that Martin did not take anything close to a direct path home.

"Zimmerman claims to have been beaten within an inch of his life, yet he was able to muster up hte strength to get a gun with Trayvon on top of him and shoot Trayvon. Huh?"

Use your head. The strength required to pull most triggers is less than 10 pounds and unless Martin was sitting directly on the gun. It should have been no problem accessing and lifting (typical 9mm handgun weighs around 2-3 pounds, loaded).

"All Zimmerman had to do was wait for the police to come and handle it."

As I said before, if I see somebody suspicious in my neighborhood -- of any color -- you can be damn sure that I will make sure they know I see them. If that means I leave the relative security of my home or my car to do that, then so be it...that's what I'll do. To condemn a person for doing that is ridiculous.

cmbmsquick I have news for you, it is illegal to touch anyone without their permission in the 50 states of the U.S., Washington D.C., Puerto Rico or any entity that belongs to the U.S.

It is legal to talk, discuss, ask questions and have a conversation. At any time it is legal to stop any form of communication and walk away.

Just for your edification. As you have difficulty in understanding laws, I just briefed you. The second that Martin touched Zimmerman he was in violation of the laws of Florida. Zimmerman was fully in his right to stop the attack on himself by any means possible.

Try reading the statutes of Florida Law. This case is 100% politically motivated. If it wasn't for the fear and danger to Mr. Zimmerman, it would be laughable.

Wow! I've never seen so many collapses. One thing for sure, there's two very heated sides to this incident and the news media's consistently throwing gasoline on it. Hummmm, maybe that's a good thing??? Great for entertainment. Oh, man, that was a bad statement, sorry.

"

doolittle13

That is crap. The injustice is that GZ was charged due to public pressure.

GZ won't even go to trial based on provable facts.

If my family member was being hit like GZ I would hope he would shoot him !

The only facts that matter is that TM was pounding hi GZ& at that point GZ can use lethal force ! All the rest has no bearing on the right of self defence.

I have heard nothing that changes my legal opinion !

Your legal opinion is not based on law.

So you're saying if you have a gun and go start a fight and you end up getting your ass whipped you then have a right to shot the person? LOL

It wa Martin that had the right to defend himself. Let me ask you a question. If you were confronted by a stranger you didn't know and that person had a gun do you just smack him and say bad man bad man, or do you fight for your life and try to disarm him?

I apologize. I just recalculated the distance between the gate and Martin's house. It is not ~850 ft.. It is roughly 700 ft. Meaning if an average man was walking an average pace he would be able to go from the gate to Martin's residence in 2 1/4 minutes...not 2 3/4 minutes...making it even more likely that Martin was doing something other than "just walking home" and shoots the idea that Martin was trying to get straight home out of the water.

This guy actually has a pretty interesting take on things:

This happened in my gated community. My daughter and her husband visited me. There is drawn on the street lines so that the street area in front of every house is clearly marked. After my daughter and her husband had been in my house for 20 minutes or so, a security guard came and politely told us that the front wheel of my daughters car was OVER the line that separated the next house and my house. The other house owner COMPLAINED about two feet of her car passing into his empty street area!!!!

My daughter who does not live in the gated community had registered with the gate house people, who came to my house to tell me I had a visitor and was she allowed to visit me!!!!

Jesus Christ almighty. I have seen security escort many people out of the community. Children who misbehave are told to leave with their parents. Noisy people are told to leave, former owners are told to leave, owners of houses who don't have a right to visit their rented properties are told to leave as they have no business on the grounds.

There is a six wire high voltage electric fence around the property which would stop no one intent on entering the property. There is a large main back entrance which is not patrolled. The whole idea of a gated community is to stop people who do not have a legitimate reason to being on the property from being on the property.

I am a renter. I had to register and I have made myself known to the administration and to most of the security people. I ask them to stop in for a rest or refreshment. I chat them up and give Christmas bonuses. I make sure that when I need help they come and they do come.

Every gated community has different laws and regulations. Whatever was in play at Zimmerman's he still called the police. Most security people do not carry guns or pepper spray or even wooden batons. The community does not want to risk law suits. Let the police come and handle the nasty stuff.

There is a bone in the way of the brain :P... I say he should be convicted of manslaughter, not murder 2. The definition of manslauter is: the crime of killing a human being without malice, forethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder... The definition of murder 2 is: a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility.... so all of you are saying that GZ assaulted TM??? Even though GZ was on the ground? RIIIGHT???

Mike Fillmore

The media is once again manufacturing "big news."

hahaha...isnt that what THEY accuse FOX of doing? No double standard there huh?

msg post #1.4

With all the threats coming from the black community, I don't doubt that some weak people would change their statements... Pretty damn sad that a class of people in a community can put out threats like common criminals. Why doesn't the FBI investigate the folks who threaten violence and charge them with witness tampering? For that matter, how in the world does the "New Black Panthers" get away with issuing a hit and not have the feds round them up?

It is because they are black and would call it racism, what hypocritical BULL S**T. In tell we start treating these racist ni88ers as just that the same thing will keep happening. Should a WHITE group do the same it would be a hate crime. These double standard has to stop the blacks can have all black collages while if the WHITE MAN was to do that it would be rascally motivated. What is behind the blacks mans motivation to do this it is simple they want the double standard to stay in place it gives them the upper hand in most cases when they say it is a race issue. Until we do away it this and say we are all equal and one man of one color assaulting one man of a different color is just an assault, then we will always have this double standard BS. How many blacks are convicted of hate crimes for black on white crimes, I know of none at this time. So the double standard is always in favor of the black man regardless of the actual motive of the crime. Once these wealthy black community leaders say it is about race it seems that is what the case is based on; not on right or wrong but on the base of our countries bad history and to prove we are not racist. So we will over look all the facts to show we are not for racism but it does not go both ways. I am sick and tired of this and until we stand together and say NO MORE. It will continue to happen. For gods sake Zimmerman is not white he is Mexican, but that doesn't seem to matter with these NI88ERS.

FedupwithFed...(#1.136).....Hey Fed.....No matter how much evidence is released, some will never accept....Reminds me of a song from 1978...

"What a fool believes, he sees

No wise man has the power to reason away"----- The Doobie Brothers

Nearly every major media outlet except for the New York Times and (MS)NBC has "softened" its headlines with all this information being released.....in anticipation that there will either be no trial or an acquittal...

And just as a reminder....it was the Judge at the end of the Bail/Bond Hearing that told both the prosecutor and defence that he was putting together a "product" to release to the media after both sides had a chance to review and make requests for changes.....They are NOT leaks as the Martin Family Lawyer is moaning and groaning about.....

Hey Mike!

MSNBC is just fueling the fire to keep their messiah in office. Good thing Barry wants a son just like Trayvon, pot smoking thief that likes to beat up on people.....looks like the apple didn't fall far from the tree!

Does it ocurr to anyone that witnesses in this case could possibly be getting coerced by certain parties to change their stories?? We've already seen the results of Spike Lee's tweet followers when the elderly couple was run out of thier own home. Sharpton and others wanting to hang Zimmerman out to dry has ALSO had conversations with many of the witnesses. What about pressure from the NBPP and others?? Intimidation and flat out fear are all reasons people can change statements. Some good points have also been made about Sharpton. How does this instigating racist keep his job on MSNBC???

Susie-pretty twisted calling out people as racist then making completely racist statements your self calling people half-breeds. Somebody asked if you call the President half-breed?? Didn't seen a response to that one?!?!?!

After all the legal proceedings and Tawana Browley's friends coming forth and telling everyone she lied about the incident and her boyfriend admitting that Tawana talked to him and admitted it was a big hoax and after the grand jury and the civil cases came out in favor of the six accused a lot of the black community still want to believe Browley.

Now that shows that the black community is out of touch with reality. The leaders are pouring gasoline on the fire. The last thing they want is to say that Martin should have gone home and called the police and not started a fire.

How else would they be leaders if they didn't want to lie and start a riot? MSNBC.COM knowingly hired the biggest liar of the Tawana Brawley problem. They have no trouble hiring liars and troublemakers.

Of course I am referring to Sharpeton.

Where is one black voice calling for justice for Zimmerman??????

Where is one intelligent black person saying this is all a farce, lets go on with making blacks more responsible and reasonable?

The silence is deafening!

Remember there would have been no black slavery in the United States if the black chiefs in Africa did not sell their own people to the white men! The blacks were sold into slavery by their own people. Look where it started. The white man did not go out to the tribes and capture blacks. The chiefs waged war on other tribes, captured the people of other tribes and even sold people of their own tribes. Put the blame where it belongs and get off the whitie is responsible for slavery.

It is exactly like the Central American Native Indian Tribes, the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas. They waged war among their own tribes and other tribes. They captured prisoners to be slaves and to sacrifice to their gods.

There is nothing inferior about blacks but their respect for each other. According to the Official Federal Statistics of the more than 10000 murders last year, 9400 were by blacks, mostly against their own people. How little has changed in 500 years.

Checking on Sanford, Florida crime rate where all this happened, I found that 97% of the rest of the cities in the U.S. are safer than Sanford, Florida.

Out of 100, with 100 being the safest, Sanford Florida ranks "3".

You still think that Zimmerman is paranoid about crime in Sanford, Florida?

In comparison Watts California rates a "4" and Newark, New Jersey rates an "11". Paterson New Jersey rates an "18" and Washington D.C. rates a "6".

Therefore the crime rate in Sanford Florida is worse than in Watts, California, Washington, D.C., Newark, New Jersey and Paterson, New Jersey.

You have to search high and low to find a city more dangerous. With those statistics, it is not a question of why Zimmerman was carrying a concealed weapon, it is a question more of why he didn't use it sooner!

Why isn't Zimmerman's lawyer crying the race card? Zimmerman is half Jewish. Talk about a race that is hated and maligned all around the world and especially here in the U.S. Even more than the Blacks. The Wall Street Protestors hate them!

Africa is a continent there are about 52 countries in Africa. Our ancestors were not a part of the africans that sold us. Also just because they were selling didn't mean they had to buy and to add to that to treat another human being less than an animal. The truth is out there all you have to do is search for it.. You all need to stop spouting crap about blacks like you know. A few from many... Zimmerman will have his day in court, bottom line a young man was killed, investigate as you would do any other case. Whether it turns out to be SYG, manslaughter, murder or not guilty either way someone is not going to be happy. None of you on here really gives two cents about either of these young men, all you want to do is argue and prove your point and to say all the things that you truly feel about each other. Put each other down, talk about TV parents, talk about GZ parents, spouting off about things you know absolutely nothing about. Gotta have something to argue about. There's no love for either one. Everybody wants to be the winner, just to one up each other. So sad! I bet any of you on either side of the fence would change your minds, if the scenario was reversed. Be careful what you say people, because whether you believe it or not life has a way of showing you the other side. Grown a$$ men and women acting like animals, growling and gnashing calling each other names, just a shame.

coach,

What do you coach, square dancing? A fat 28-year old catching up with a 17-year old football wide receiver? Are you serious? If someone was chasing me with a gun in hand, I would run like a rabbit.

Let the witness tampering and intimidation begin. If a witness saw things differently than some would like seem millions of death threats. What next? The NBPP and Shabazz putting out rewards for witnesses that differ with their views? Probably and Eric holder will again refuse to charge them.

Once again, let us remember that Zimmerman called 911 and was told not to get out of his car...he did it anyway. He IS at fault, he COULD have avoided the entire situation if he had done what he was told. But of course if ifs and buts were wishes and nuts...

Not Guilty. Marches and race riots and random racial killings coming soon to a city near you. That will be the new news. Sad.

Basicly we still have the lynch mob lying because the truth supports the claim of self-defense. The dispatcher didn't "order" Zimmerman to do anything. But the lynch mob lies. It's largely a moot point (other than the lynch mob lying) because Zimmerman stopped following anyway. But the lynch mob lies. Then the lynch mob says that Zimmerman was the aggressor because... well, because he was able to prevent Martin from killing him; that's why.

None of you were there when this happened, but you all know exactly what happened. Well, you're all wrong. I wasn't there either, but I know exactly what happened. GZ saw TM and thought, "HHMMM! Here's a hooded dude, I'll bet he has some weed I can score. GZ approached TM and demanded that he turn over the weed. TM, told him that he had taken the last batch the day before and, even if he had some, he wouldn't give him any. This angered GZ. So he called TM a "Fcging Goon." Well, TM didn't like that so he called GZ a bald headed, neo-nazi fascist. This continued until GZ got the best of the name calling and drove TM to defend himself against such blatant verbal abuse. He Stood his Ground and defended himself by pushing GZ. GZ, not backing down, stood his groung also and tried to kick TM in the gonads. But, TM, being younger and faster, caught GZ's kick and flipped GZ around making GZ hit his head on the ground. GZ, seeing that he was out-matched, physically by the younger man, went back to calling TM names to buy himself time for his next move--the sweep around, front leg kick. TM, again being younger and faster hopped out of the way and on his way down he stopped himself by placing his fist on GZ face. GZ didn't like that, so he bit TM's knuckles. TM seeing that this guy had the bite of a savage leopard, yelled for help. He then grabbed GZ nose and squeezed it hard in the hope that GZ would stop biting his knuckles. Well, GZ couldn’t breathe and thought he would be asphyxiated. No matter, how hard he tried, he couldn’t get TM to let go of his nose. So, now we had a standoff: GZ still biting TM’s knuckles and TM still squeezing GZ’s nose. Well, you can see that GZ was getting the worst of the situation. He could have simply let go of TM’s knuckles. But that would be wimping out. Since he didn't want to be asphyxiated to death, he pulled out his gun and shot TM.

That's how it happened. Anything else is pure CRAP!!

You don't believe me. My version is as good as any that's been listed in this blog. And, my version gives everybody a motive. And I'm ready to testify.....Any book editors out there? I'm ready to publish my story.

@dictionary

If you say that Sanford is rated with a 3 out of a hundred fir safety what is there to say that Martin had no right to fear the area?

also if we take the face value of the statement(not saying it has not been tampered with, most witness statements are tampered by pressure from the lawyer(s) present) saying that the conversation went

Martin - "Why are you following me?"

Zimmerman - "What are you doing here?"

As a 17 year old teenager myself if I am ask this question by a stranger I would either A) Not tell them or B) Tell a complete lie.

Also I am not picking side I felt this counterarguement had to be stated through a 17 year old that lives in similar situations

Also before you try to argue that I haven't been in similar situations, I have a group African-American, one was of Mexican descent (Also my best friend), and my 14 year old Caucasian brother. I ahve also been assaulted by a Caucasian-Hispanic 18 year old, I did not retaliate, either way he was not taken into custody or talked to about his behavior at all.

There I think my post has no holes in it, if you find one let me know and I'll be sure to fill it in a young adult's view.

Have a nice day

-Ginga4Life

*FIX Something screwed up in posting*

after it says I have a group in my post, it should read:

I had a group of young men of HISPANIC descent attempt to jump me in the pressence of witnesses two of which were AFRICAN-AMERICAN...(to the end)

We do have an ear witness now - Trayvon's girlfriend - who could have embellished her story, but did not. According to her, Zimmerman WAS the aggressor, which makes more sense, considering that he was the one pursuing Trayvon during his 911 call. What doesn't make any sense is that Trayvon would suddenly turn around and pursue the guy he was running away from. And yet, that is what Zimmerman would have us believe. What doesn't make any sense is that Zimmerman would be the one screaming for help when he had a gun. What makes more sense is that Trayvon saw the gun and started screaming for his life. And yet, Zimmerman would have us believe that HE was the one screaming. What doesn't make any sense is that Zimmerman feared for his life because he was getting the crap beat out of him, considering that Trayvon only has one small cut on one of his fingers. What did he beat him with? His elbows? Yet, that is what Zimmerman would have us believe.

Zimmerman has proven himself to be a liar - and a bad liar, at that - yet, there are so many who would rather believe his unbelievable story than to believe what really happened: A hate crime that began with racial profiling and would never have happened at all, if only Zimmerman had turned around and let the police handle it, as the 911 operator told him to.

I am perplexed why Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital.Therefore, there is not a sample of his blood to test whether Zimmerman was under the influence of drugs. As well, the witnesses did not see the very start of what Zimmerman did when he reached Trayvon . The first physical contact could have been from Zimmerman. He followed Trayvon for reason & that was to start trouble. Also, these are people that are friends with Zimmerman that may not be givving honest statements. They possibly saw Zimmerman strike Trayvon first or pull his gun on Trayvon. At that point, I would fight for my life as well to the best of my ability. Every one is saying those tiny little scratches on Zimmerman are injuries. Trayvon suffered the ultimate injury and that was death. Death is a very final injury that doesn't disappear within a few hours and in Zimmerman's case they were gone in less than a few hours. Everything on Zimmerman was very superficial. Could zimmerman have gotten the scratches from being on the ground. Were Trayvon's hands processed to see whether Zimmerman's DNA were upon his hands. Zimmerman was following behind Trayvon saying racial slurs, provoking this child, tracked him, couldn't keep up with on foot as Trayvon ran from him, so he drove to catch up to him in his vehicle.

All this was avoidable had Zimmerman drove his car home and went inside to his wife. Trayvon would have made it to his father's house and there would not be a tragic murder for us to be discussing. Zimmerman created this situation on tape he was intent that Trayvon was not going to get away from him. I guess because all those other little black children he followed were able to outrun him. That's why he made sure this one didn't get away like all the others.

When someone uses a firearm or kills someone period, there should be mandatory drug testing of the perp. Obviously, he was not thinking with a clear mind to continue following Trayvon when he was told to cease the pursuit.

(This is also corroborated by Martin's girlfriends story -- which has also greatly changed, BTW);

Mike in SA-1507704 #1.116

i heard both of trayvon's gf's interviews and heard no significant changes or additions to her story. what are these allegations of changes you're asserting she made?

i absolutely hate it when viners collapse comments unless they're obscene and viciously attack other viners.

expression of racist stupidity should not be censored because it's aids in the covering up of racism.

the number of up votes that dictionary has received for his bigoted comments is astounding shows the attitudes (certainly not all) of many on this site. hiding behind collapsing them changes nothing.

Dictionary,

For the most part I agree with the majority of your comments. You should, however, take note that you cannot kill someone by driving their nasal bones into their brain; this is just an urban legend. There is no such thing as nasal bones. Your nose is made up of cartilage, not bone.

Dictionary:

Here is the answer to your question. I would not have been following Trayvon in the first place. Zimmerman's actions made this event possible. had he stayed in his truck and let the police handle it, none of this would have happened. You cannot get around that basic fact. He was in pursuit of Trayvon by his own admission, and followed him almost to the door where he was staying. Zimmerman never once, by his own testimony, said who he was or what he wanted.

Even if Zimmerman gets off, he should have many sleepless nights because of this. He took someone's life for nothing.

Now, you and others want to ignore what led up to the altercation between Trayvon and Zimmerman, but that is critical. Trayvon was not stalking Zimmerman. Zimmerman said on the tpae that "they always get away." he had already profiled Trayvon as a criminal and he was not going ot let him get away.

Perhaps this all just stupidity on the part of Zimmerman, but it led to the unnecessary death of a teenager. Zimmerman should be charged with something because Trayvon's death is a direct result of his injection into something that could have been handled by the police, or certainly differently.

MoonWolf:

She wouldn't be much of a girlfriend to him if she admitted that Martin was the aggressor, would she. The people wanting Zimmerman's head were saying that the witness who identified Martin as on top and bashing Zimmerman's head "must be" a friend of Zimmerman's and therefore "unreliable." So far, no one has been able to establish any relation. And what do you do? You produce someone with an obvious, known bias.

It does make sense that Zimmerman would be screaming for help -- even if he had a gun. The gun is intended as a last resort, not a first. But help was not forthcoming. I guess there was just too much chanting of "Go, Martin, go. Kill that *****." So Zimmerman exercised the only means of defense available to him. And Martin is dead for that.

Al:

If your neighborhood was being robbed blind and you saw someone that you thought (rightly or wrongly) was one of the thieves, I am sure that you would follow him so that you could identify them to the police. I do not believe for a moment that you would welcome thieves and ask them to steal everything you own. So, answer the actual question now. Martin is beating down on you. He wants to kill you. If you do nothing you will die. You can either shoot in self-defense, or die. Which is your choice. If you try to deflect again, I will have to assume that you would do exactly as Zimmerman did.

Martin was casing the neighborhood. This is why he didn't go straight home. Some report seeing a crowbar hidden under Martin's hoodie. Martin likely hid this so as not to get caught with it since he knew he was being followed. Where did he hide it? Most likely in a trash container with the plan to retrieve it later that evening. The cops searched the trash bins but not for three weeks after this incident. Of course by then the trash has been emptied.

"Once again, let us remember that Zimmerman called 911 and was told not to get out of his car...he did it anyway." - mrkingsbury71

Again...this is a lie. How many times does this lie have to be corrected before idiots stop regurgitating it? Zimmerman was never told to stay in his car, in fact the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that" only after Zimmerman was already following Martin on foot. Zimmerman stopped pursuit within seconds of the dispatcher saying that, Zimmerman had lost Martin anyway and Zimmerman was heading back to his vehicle to meet responding officers. All of this is on the recording of Zimmerman's call to police.

irene46, Martin's girlfriend gave ABC an exclusive statement (of course with a lawyer's protection) before speaking to the police. In fact Martin's lawyers made a point of noting that police had not interviewed her yet. In that statement she said she heard Martin say "Why are you following me?", then Zimmerman saying "What are you doing here." She said Martin then must have been pushed because the phone immediately went dead. (How she would be able to tell why Martin's earpiece fell out is beyond me. It could have easily have happened if Martin threw a punch.)

Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

After that, the line went dead, she said. According to ABC News, other than screams on 911 calls as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words Martin said.

Her story now is that the phone did not immediately go dead, that she heard Martin crying "Get off! Get off!", then the phone went dead. This runs counter to multiple eyewitness accounts (and forensic evidence) that it was Martin who was on top assailing Zimmerman.

#.T7ka08WwUTU

I attempted to link to documentation earlier and for some reason it didn't take. I am hoping that by using MSNBC's own links that they will be allowed. I am trying again, but if it doesn't show up again, you'll have to Google it.

Incredible that they do not allow links even when they point back to MSNBC's own articles. What a piece of junk.

Ginga4life:

"what are you doing here" in today's environment could have menat a lot of theings, not the least of which could be " why are you on my turf." What Zimmerman should have done was to identify himself and explain why he was asking the question.
What are you doing here" comes across as beligerent and certainly indicative of a previous mindset. There are ways to approach people without controversy. Also, remember, Trayvon had seen Zimmerman trailing him before this confrontation.

Consciously or unconsciously, Zimmerman actions were designed to create a confrontation.There were othere things he could have done to get a better result. Stupidity, intentional, or mistake, Zimmerman should pay fo his actions according to the law.

My limited experience with blacks is stay away from them. Even Jesse Jackson says the same thing:

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."

LMFAO, the racists can't even contain their racism anymore. I guess their feeling of anonymity on the internet has made them now comfortable enough to announce their racism to the world. It reminds me of people who get drunk and all of a sudden are full of liquid courage. How brave of them.

Again...this is a lie. How many times does this lie have to be corrected before idiots stop regurgitating it? Zimmerman was never told to stay in his car, in fact the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that" only after Zimmerman was already following Martin on foot. Zimmerman stopped pursuit within seconds of the dispatcher saying that, Zimmerman had lost Martin anyway and Zimmerman was heading back to his vehicle to meet responding officers. All of this is on the recording of Zimmerman's call to police.

The thing that bothers me about this is that in the phone call you can hear the car door close and it's only a few seconds by the time GZ's breathing gets heavy and he is told they don't need him to follow. This doesn't seem to be enough time to get to the place where the incident actually happened. So, I don't believe he stopped trying to follow him. I don't believe that at all.

Also, I keep seeing references to GZ saying that TM was coming over to look at him, as if that was immediately before any confrontation. The only time I'm aware of him saying that is when he was still in the car and observing him.

pvblius:

The problem with what you are saying is that Zimmerman never said that he thought Trayvon was one of the people who had burglarized homes in the neighborhood. But, your inference is a part of the problem. You want to leave race out of this, yet you insist that Zimmerman thought Trayvon was one of the burglars. On what basis did Zimmerman believe that fallacy? It would have to be race. So, without getting into any details he just assumed either that Trayvon was one of the burglars, or Tryavon was about to commit a crime because of what? it is inescapable. Race is ubiquitous in this story.

Having said that, even if the victim and the perpetrator were of the same race, there are more than enough questions here to merit a full trial.

Rob40, from Zimmerman's description in the call about where his car is, the car is less than 100 ft from where the altercation took place. Exactly how slow do you think Zimmerman is?

Thanks Tyler.... I appreciate the line up.... especially seeing the comments.... it gives me pause.... what I guess (and you restored most of them.) that bothered me.. is the "wanton" collapse of comments that are just opposite views.... Thanks. Also on a unrelated note... here is a article that I wrote but MSNBC and Newsvine have not "picked up on a NY. Times story (un related to TM's case) Please read and vote/comment and see if you can bring attention to this:

//flame77-71.newsvine.com/_news/2012/05/20/11777957-naacp-votes-to-endorse-same-sex-marriage-ny-times-article-source-politics-section

"Consciously or unconsciously, Zimmerman actions were designed to create a confrontation.There were othere things he could have done to get a better result. Stupidity, intentional, or mistake, Zimmerman should pay fo his actions according to the law." - Al

When I see somebody suspicious in my neighborhood -- of any color -- I will absolutely make sure they know I see them. That is even if it means me leaving the relative safety of my home or vehicle. If they are traveling down the alley in the back, then I make sure they see me in the alley in the back. I heard one of my neighbors' back doors getting kicked in...I called police and then went over to look. Am I looking for a confrontation? No, I'm looking to have this person second guess what his/her next actions may be if they are there for bad intent and I'm looking to give the police a better description of the suspicious person for them to look for. Sure, haul me off to jail for being a good citizen and good neighbor.

"On what basis did Zimmerman believe that fallacy? It would have to be race." - Al

Shockingly -- to you I'm sure -- no. Maybe Zimmerman saw a kid meandering around in the rain looking at peoples' houses and thought that was suspicious. After all that what he says in his call to the police. In fact, some accounts of what Zimmerman saw that made him initially suspicious have Martin off the sidewalk walking between the townhouses...in the dark and rain. I mean really, who would find THAT suspicious, right? Give me a break.

trayvon had absolutely NO responsibility to respond to this person following him in any way!!!

the ONLY thing i like about the story is that zimmerman got his face smashed, cause he deserved it. trayvon was the one "standing his ground!"

a wannabe cop, who doesnt listen to the police, nor work for them, follows and confronts an absolute stranger in the dark and got just what he wanted: a confrontation.

Believerof:

Martin had absolutely no right to start a confrontation and smash someone's face in. Anyone who says Zimmerman "deserved" that should volunteer to get beaten to death like Martin was trying to do to Zimmerman. Martin had no reason to act the way he did. Seriously, think about what you're advocating. If you really think it's such a good thing, volunteer to take that place. But I will accept if you just change your mind and say it's not so good after all. It's not something I would wish on anyone. Zimmerman did have a reason for what he did. He was saving his own skin.

Zimmerman didn't want a confrontation. Martin did. It was a foolish choice and he paid for it with his life. What Zimmerman wanted was to identify someone to the police. It's rather hard to identify someone to the police if that person is long gone before the police show up. So he followed at a distance. Martin didn't want to be identified to the police. Suspension for drug posession and theft gives us some insight as to why he didn't want the police snooping around.

Someone who wants a confrontation does not call the police. Zimmerman called the police. It is a given that he was not looking for trouble. He was looking for police protection in regards to someone he thought might be a threat to the neighborhood.

i admit that is a change. i guess when you described it as her story changing greatly i expected more.

on the other hand several different versions of geozim's story have been relayed through family members and friends. one is that trayvon approached him and asked "do you have a problem?" geo responded "no". then allegedly trayvon responds "well you do now" and punches him. another is that during the verbal back and forth geo reached into his pocket for his cell phone and trayvon then struck him.

another story contends that while geozim was on the ground trayvon had his arms pinned down with his knees while he was banging his head on the concrete. how was geo able to reach his gun? there is a version that as geo wrestled his way from the sidewalk to the grass (with his arms pinned down?) trayvon saw his gun and stated "you're going to die now/tonight". trayvon's prints were not on the gun.

when geozim's stories aren't changing, they sound quite questionable.

irene46, that's a pretty significant change. The distance from "The phone immediately went dead so I tried to call back", to "Oh yeah, now that I've had time to think about it and talk to the family's lawyers the phone DIDN'T go dead. In fact what I heard proves mean old Zimmerman to be the aggressor" is a fairly long stretch. Certainly much farther than this article is promoting with a guy saying "I was just making the educated guess that the guy on bottom was the one yelling for help. Now that I think about it I suppose it is possible that it could have been either one."

As for the "changes" in Zimmerman's version of events -- as relayed through second parties -- do you really find it significant that one family member remembered that Zimmerman said he reached for his phone while the other didn't...or just didn't include that somewhat trivial action in their second-hand account?

"another story contends that while geozim was on the ground trayvon had his arms pinned down with his knees while he was banging his head on the concrete. how was geo able to reach his gun? there is a version that as geo wrestled his way from the sidewalk to the grass (with his arms pinned down?)"

You're somehow making the ridiculous assumption that Zimmerman was making no attempt to escape. Martin had Zimmerman's arms pinned. Zimmerman was able to free one or more of his arms. Zimmerman accessed his gun. You've never wrestled before, have you? Not even with your brothers or sisters? People pin you, you try to wriggle your way free. That's how it works and rarely does it stay in one exact spot.

"trayvon saw his gun and stated 'you're going to die now/tonight'. trayvon's prints were not on the gun."

Again, what's unusual about this? Certainly not the fact that Martin's fingerprints weren't on the gun. Maybe Martin's eye-prints were, seeing as how there is no version that I've heard from Zimmerman's family nor anybody else that has Martin touching the gun at any point. This goes back to the mothers' warning, "You see with your eyes, not with your hands." Had Martin actually touched Zimmerman's gun, we may be talking about Zimmerman's death.

"trayvon had absolutely NO responsibility to respond to this person following him in any way!!!" - believerof

In every version -- including Martin's girlfriend's -- it is Martin who initiated contact.

" Suspension for drug posession and theft gives us some insight as to why he didn't want the police snooping around."

False. He was suspended for having a plastic bag with marijuana residue on it. He was never charges with stealing anything. He apparently was holding a bag for a friend. The bag contained some jewlery and a burgalry instrument. The school believed Trayvon'e story and he was not suspended for that incident.

But, here we go. We could have anticipated the criminalization of Trayvon just as we anticipate teh sun rising in the east. The irony here is that it is Geroge Zimmerman who has an arrest record for violence. It is George Zimmerman who was fired froma security job for being overzealous. Seems to me Zimmerman's record is more relevant here.

Again, let's not get too far away from the facts. The bottom line is that if Zimmerman had followed police instructions, there would be no issue. The bottom line is that the death of Trayvon Martin served no useful purpose. The bottom line is that George Zimmerman is still alive no matter how "life threatening" he claims his injuries were. Franklly, the medical evidence does not seem to support that conclusion. The bottom line is that if Zimmerman was able to get his gun out and shoot Trayvon, he could have gotten it out and held Trayvon at bay until the police arrived. The bottom line is that Trayvon was targeted by someone who was out to prove a point-"they always get away."The bottom line is that Zimmerman engaged in reckless behavior with a 9mm in his pants. It seems to me that with that kind of firepoweer at your disposal you would be expected to operate with much more responsibiltiy than Zimmerman.

If Trayvon was not one of the people who had burgalrized a home in the complex before, and was not in the process of committing a crime, what was the sense of urgency that Zimmerman felt to follow Trayvon? As it turned out, had the police arrived before Zimmerman could play a motiveless vigilante, they would have discovered that Trayvon belonged there, bid him adieu, and gone on their merry ways. Instead we have a homicide.

Al, you've never been around teenagers have you? When I was a teenager and got caught with some pot, do you want to know what I said? I said it was somebody else's and wouldn't say whose it was. Of course it was mine the whole time.

As far as who is lying, your statement "The bottom line is that if Zimmerman had followed police instructions, there would be no issue." shows that you are. It is well established by now that Zimmerman stopped following Martin within seconds of the dispatcher saying "You don't need to do that."

"Franklly, the medical evidence does not seem to support that conclusion." Frankly with a broken nose and contusions and lacerations on the back of his head where he was getting his skull slammed into the concrete again and again, the medical evidence DOES support the conclusion.

"The bottom line is that if Zimmerman was able to get his gun out and shoot Trayvon, he could have gotten it out and held Trayvon at bay until the police arrived." This is ridiculous. You're concluding that Zimmerman had the battle won just because he managed to wriggle free one arm while Martin was on top of him. And if Martin's strong enough to be on top of him banging his skull on the sidewalk, why would Zimmerman believe Martin wasn't also strong enough to take the gun away while on top of him?

"It seems to me that with that kind of firepoweer at your disposal you would be expected to operate with much more responsibiltiy than Zimmerman." You mean by stopping his following of Martin when asked to? Well what do you know...he did!

"If Trayvon was not one of the people who had burgalrized a home in the complex before..." You say this with certitude even though Martin was caught with stolen jewelry in his possession.

"...what was the sense of urgency that Zimmerman felt to follow Trayvon?" As per Zimmerman's call to police, Martin was wandering around in the dark and the rain looking at peoples' homes, then Martin starts running when he knows he is being watched by Zimmerman. Frankly if the same thing happened in my neighborhood, I would also do the same thing. I may not have followed him as far, but I certainly would have followed and tried to ascertain where he was running to.

Funny that you're not mentioning Zimmerman also has a history of mentoring blacks and defending the civil rights of blacks, lashing out -- in a public forum and on public record -- at the Sanford Police Department for their "disgusting" behavior and demanding that the police chief not just lose his job but also his pension for attempting to cover up the beating of a black homeless man by the son of one of the officers. That was a year before this incident. If you want to bring up Zimmerman's history, then bring up his whole history.

Mike,
GZ was by mailboxes when he spoke to police, if he stopped following, how did he end up behind those houses?
The body was found nowhere near the sidewalk, that is another lie!
Trayvon was in Miami when the homes in that neighborhood were broken in to!
Who cares about GZ supposed mentoring? It's not relevant to his murderous deeds on that night!
Frankly your entire post is nonsense!

Dictionary:

Stick to the facts Avery, you story sounds like Alice in Wonderland helped you with it.

Alice in Wonderland is a work of fiction it is incapable of writing a story.

Additionally, one cannot push the bones of the nose into the brain, quite simply because the nose is composed of cartilage. A sharp blow to the skull can kill, but not in that manner. It is physically impossible to kill someone using non-existent anatomical features.

It usually does not help one's argument to use false and nonsensical examples to prove it.

JoAnn, it is obvious you have never laid eyes on the layout of that community which, by the way, is easy to find were one to be more concerned about basing their opinions on the facts of the case instead of believing any clap-trap they heard that fits their world view. So let me help educate you with an overhead aerial of the immediate surrounding area. Got to www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/martin_1000.jpg

Interestingly in the aerial view a truck is parked right where Zimmerman's call says he was parked, at the cut-through by the mailboxes. This map likely has his position marked wrong. Zimmerman clearly states he is parked at the cut-through [sidewalk], which is where the truck is parked in the photo. We can also make the educated guess by the detail of his description of Martin in the dark that he is facing Martin, not watching from his rear-view mirror meaning his truck would have to be on the other side of the road. Also supporting the positioning is the fact that had Martin simply been walking at an average pace he would have been out of Zimmerman's line of site before Zimmerman said "Oh sh*t, he's running." The circle with the 'F' is where the altercation occurred...less than 200 feet from the truck...behind the homes...by the sidewalk...out of the line of site of responding officers. You got it???

BTW, Martin's home is down that row of homes where the yellow line goes. As noted on the image by simply jogging -- not sprinting -- Martin would have easily made it safely home by the 2 minute 40 second mark based on what we know from the call. That is nearly 1 minute 25 seconds before Zimmerman ever gets off the phone with the police and Martin could have made it there simply by walking at an average pace also before Zimmerman got off the phone. Ergo, a thinking person should be able to tell that Martin did not attempt to go straight home. For your theory to work Zimmerman would have had to suspend the laws of physics and transport himself -- a la Star Trek -- in front of Martin to confront him.

"Trayvon was in Miami when the homes in that neighborhood were broken in to!"

I'm not accusing Martin of the break-ins, but I'm not sure how you can make this conclusion with any certitude. Martin was reportedly a fairly regular visitor to his father.

"Frankly your entire post is nonsense!"

My entire post is based on the facts, not some dogmatic fantasy that goes out of its way to ignore the facts, like yours is.

Yes mike, I have looked at this map...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

I do not believe an ounce of fiction that wagist posts! I haven't seen any official comments from police as to where GZ's vehicle was parked, my understanding is GZ's wife moved it before they realized he was driving, they thought he was walking.

I know many people assume the truck in the map is GZ's truck, at least you admit that is not true! I will wait to see where he really was when he called the police, and not speculate as others are....wagist especially!

You might want to look at the map again and see how many "cut throughs" are in the area! First you tell me you are making an "educated guess" followed up with your "entire post is based on facts".....lol.....

Keep fantasizing!

"I do not believe an ounce of fiction that wagist posts!"

This doesn't have anything to do with wagist or whether one believes him/her or not. That IS the aerial map of the immediate area and a thinking person can conclude a location of Zimmerman's vehicle from what Zimmerman said in his call and the layout that we see on the aerial shot. That conclusion is just as valid using your aerial shot. I used that one because you apparently couldn't figure out how Zimmerman could be by the sidewalk and/or behind the homes. Either that or you purposely ignored maps showing it.

"I know many people assume the truck in the map is GZ's truck"

BTW, I have not heard one single person say that the truck in the aerial shot is Zimmerman's. That would be ridiculous and impossible seeing as how this image was taken during the day and the incident happened after dark.

"...they [police] thought he was walking."

I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion at all, considering the Zimmerman recording clearly has him saying "they'll see my truck" when giving directions of how he would meet with responding officers. Police knew he had a vehicle there.

"You might want to look at the map again and see how many 'cut throughs' are in the area!"

There is one -- and only one -- cut-through left of the clubhouse as driving goes...again as stated in Zimmerman's call. If you're alluding to the spaces between the buildings, then Zimmerman would have had no problem giving an exact address of his location to the police.

What don't you understand about the word based??? My opinion is BASED on fact. Yours seems to be based on some sort of "white man wrong" dogmatic suspension of fact that needs to revisit Occam's Razor.

Those baby scratches are "beat to a pulp"? Drama much?

He approached a child for no reason, got his ass handed to him, then got even. He's a weak man. If imprisoned, his ass won't just be handed to him, it'll be handled for him.

This case has been tried in the media. And the media these days are generally all about sensationalism and profits... at least that's how it feels. Unless you were there, front and center, how can you judge either Martin or Zimmerman? All of the evidence needs to come out, not just the cherry picked bits and pieces. And in that respect, our media has failed.

Zimmermans scratches were all self inflicted. Guilty. Death sentence.

Hard to say he was the agressor when he never threw a punch.

Wannabe cop, but too stupid to pass the entrance exam! And, too dumb to take the 911 operator's advice. Sad. He was the agressor because he stalked an innocent person lawfully walking on a public sidewalk with a GUN! Sheesh.

Martin obviously never knew Zimmerman had a pistol. You don't punch someone with a pistol. Zimmerman had every right to follow any individual he did not know in that gated community. As a matter of fact the community elected him for that very purpose.

Zimmerman harrasses this kid by following him around, gets his ass busted for it so he decides to shoot him like the coward that he is. I can't wait for them to lock his punk ass up like he deserves

There is no law in this country that allows someone to beat someone up for following or harassing them.

There is no law in this country that allows someone to beat someone up for following or harassing them.

Sure there is. It's called "Stand your ground". As far as Martin knew, Zimmerman was the armed thug coming after him.

Stand your ground means that you don't have to walk away. It doesn't in fact mean that you can throw blows.

So, y'all are so dead-sure certain that Trayvon actually started it.... So -- y'all were actually there to see it happen? Well, how about y'all STEP UP and be eye-witnesses in court!

p.s., NavyVet81, according to that Florida law -- TRAYVON had the right to stand his ground instead of leaving, too. But you were there to see it, weren't you..............

Stand your ground means you can use force if you are threatened by another, it even permits the use of lethal force, it certainly permits the use of fists.

@NavyVet81,

There is no law in this country that allows someone to beat someone up for following or harassing them.

I don't know what country you live in, but if an aggressive person is following you at night you have the right to kill them. That is self defense generally (even in states that don't have "stand your ground" once you try to retreat you can protect yourself). You don't have to wait for someone to attack you first -- once some weirdo gets out of a car and chases you down you have the right to stop them even it means kill them, and definitely have the right to beat them up.

Wrong you have a right to stand your ground and challenge them verbally.

I would get freak out if someone follow me. If the person is smaller than me, I would take my chance and "stand my ground".

This entire situation can be avoidable, the problem is someone want to be a wannabe cop and provoke to start the whole thing.

Martin was clearly ahead of Zimmerman and if Martin was scared he would have run home. Saying he would have turned around and fought if he was scared goes against logic.

@Navy

Like I said, if someone follow me and if I see a chance, I would rather confront than run away. Martin is a teenager with good build, how often you see a teen with good build run away? He stands his ground expect a brawl, not a gun fight to the death.

Assuming that TM was 'standing his ground', once GZ was on his back TM should have gone home. Once he got on top of GZ, he was then the aggressor and GZ didn't know what TM was capable of, ergo, he felt his life was in danger.

Zimmerman wasn't on citizens patrol - he was headed to Target when his temper got the best of him.

Martin was headed to his dads girlfriends house when his temper got the best of him.

50% of all posts on Newsvine are submitted because their temper got the best of them :P

I love how all those Scratches (you ppl DO realize Head wounds, even light ones bleed a LOT!!!!!!) evidence of fighting for your LIFE?????? An Ass whipping isnt always a case of "OMG IM ABOUT TO DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". He had a bruised nose (easy to break), two scratches on the back if the head that ID NOT NEED STITCHES!!!!, black eyes that didnt show in the photos at the police station. Didnt need to go to the hospital.... what part of this spells LIFE THREATENING wounds????

Was his head BUST open???? Nope

Did he need a SINGLE STITCH???

Did he have a cu cushion???? Nope

He wanted to go to work the VERY NEXT DAY, and went to the family dr to get cleared for work. Doesnt sound like someone beaten so bad was about to lose his life to me.

Did he follow his Drs instructions and go see a Ear, Eye, Nose specialist??? Nope

Was the Family Dr truly his Primary Care? I'm Curious.

What I dont get is, in that grainy photo that was supposedly taken from an officers cell phone, that he forgot to upload until days later.... shows a big swollen nose. But the Photo AT the station that is clear, shows only a few scratches... Which one was taken first?

What evidence are ppl pulling to say Tray turned and FOLLOWED George back to his vehicle... even though the fight took place no where NEAR his vehicle???

We know through Georges own supposed Story relayed by his family and "friends", that he CONFRONTED MARTIN, and asked him "WHO ARE YOU?" "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?" as they used the argument that "If only TM would have just answered his questions, and not gotten aggressive, it never would have happened". NO ONE here has ANY idea HOW GZ asked the questions, if TM attempted to tell him to F*** off, and kept going, and GZ grabbed him. We don't know HOW the fight started, so i don't get where ppl think just because you were beaten up, You did NOT start the fight. There are THOUSANDS of Youtube videos that show otherwise, that MANY MANY ppl who start fights get beat up. TM didnt have any bruises... well DUH... clearly GZ was more interested in grabbing his GUN then throwing punches... TM had ONE small bruise on his ring finger.... If he was pummeling GZ SO badly that he was going to lose his life, his knuckles would have been in ruin... If he was slamming GZs head into CONCRETE he would have more then a few scratches....

How can you start a fight, and then claim SD when you start to lose??? GZ broke TWO neighborhood watch protocols.... carrying a weapon on patrol, and CONFRONTING. Just because neither is ILLEGAL, doesnt absolve you of RESPONSIBILITY if something goes WRONG!!!! Just because they are not ILLEGAL, doesnt mean you have a RIGHT to do them. He CHASED after TM, and that was proven by the audio tape where he is breathing HEAVILY, unless he is so fat he has to breath heavy to step out of his car.... That was afterall how the Dispatcher knew he was chasing someone...

NONE of this would have happened if ZM followed protocol, AND listened to dispatchers. Just because what he did wasnt ILLEGAL, wont rid him of RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT HAPPENED. I dont get how you people dont get that. The best you can say is "its not illegal to follow".

Dictionary 72, Blacks vote for a person they think will be a good president for all the people. They were behind Clinton 100%. They were a big help when he was being impeached. They were behind Carter, and Kennedy. They even liked Johnson. Everyone regards of color expects a president to represent all people, America is not just a white country, there are many different colors here. How can you judge other people's view points because they are different from yours?? Obama won the presidentency because he was the right man for the job, had Hillary Clinton won she too would have been good for the job. John McCain was a traitor and gave Americans over to Hanoi. Blacks do not care about skin color, incase you hadn't noticed their colors run from white to jet black. If you think that is a lie, check out Louisiana and see for yourself. Color is only skin deep but racism is to the soul, and you just can't help being what you are... Obama did not screw up this country, George Bush,Jr. did. Obama's only fault was in thinking that America would work with him to clean up the mess Bush had maded. No way, like you, most can't get pass his being half black. That is really pathetic, had he not propped up our economy with government money. America would have gone into the deep depressions of the 30's, and doubtful never recovered. The only real thing holding America back and preventing job creation, is your Republican, TeaParty, KKK bigots. We, ex military, who served this country, and depend on our comrades in battle to have our backs, worry about what has happened to America since Obama, and why so much stinking racism. We fight as American together, not as black, white, brown, yellow or red. This country belongs to all of us, and a black man, a half black man, white, or any other color as long as he is an American can be president. women have the same rights, also. they fight for America too. Americans have really given other countries something to talk about, the pettiness against the first black American president has brought racism to a new level. Most of the countries of the world are non white, and by 2030, America on the path, we are going, will have 50 % of it's population that is non white. You will really love that, and may the "FORCE"be with you, because you will need it.

Hard to say he was the agressor when he never threw a punch.

Pursuing someone on foot with a firearm makes you an aggressor. Zimmerman never saw a crime being committed and had no authority to intervene even if he had. That is the job of the local police.

Zimmerman had every right to follow any individual he did not know in that gated community. As a matter of fact the community elected him for that very purpose.

Zimmerman had no right to follow an individual he had not witnessed commit any crime. He had the right to call the police and report a suspicious person, he did not have any right to follow Martin. Doing so made him the aggressor in the situation. Furthermore he was not a "Neighborhood Watch" official as there was no such program for him to be elected into in his community and he had not been trained by law enforcement to do so.

Stand your ground means that you don't have to walk away. It doesn't in fact mean that you can throw blows.

There were no eye witnesses to say who initiated the first physical contact, however we have ample evidence the entire situation was put into motion by an overzealous wanna be cop and could have been completely avoided had he complied with the dispatcher. From the accounts of Martins girlfriend and the corresponding times of the phone calls we have more than enough to get this case to trial and to land a 2nd degree murder conviction... unless of course he pleas to manslaughter. We also have a documented history of violence on Zimmerman, all in all, he would be wise to to take the plea if offered.

Stand your ground laws are meant as a defense for people who are forced to defend themselves from an aggressor. We don't know if Zimmerman threw a punch or not. If he didn't trow a punch it was because he is a bigger wimp than obvious but maybe he didn't because he had his gun out from the moment he left his vehicle. Perhaps that's why Martin decided to defend himself. You can't out run a bullet.

By the way, if a nut is following you at night and he runs after you, then it's time to use violence. A Navy Vet might try to risk talking to a guy like that but I would try to kick him in a couple of sensitive spots and then call the police. Martin did not know how to defend himself and now he is dead.

Chris

I think youre going to find a history of violence with Martin also. If you see a suspicious person in your gated community you have every right to call the police and then try to keep tabs on him until the police arrive.

There's just one serious flaw in that "Stand Your Ground" law...perception. One man's perception of "standing his ground" is like Zimmerman's. HE was standing HIS ground because HE believed Martin was a threat to HIS neighborhood. Sorry, but that law is as NY's Mayor Bloomberg stated, a license to kill anyone you believe is a "threat". What threat did Martin present that wasn't caused by Zimmerman NOT minding HIS own business?

You stick your nose into a pedestrian's business when they are not doing anything wrong and you bet your life they'll beat your nosy asses.

Steve...Your post is indicative of how some men try to hide the real reason for their lack of objectivity in major issues. Wouldn't it be simpler just to admit that you hope Martin has a criminal record, that he is a druggie and fits all of those lame-brained stereotypes some white males have about black men? Wouldn't it be simpler to get to the root of your lack of objectivity and see only the facts of this issue instead of injecting biased opinions you hope will smear a dead victim to save a nosy Zimmerman's ass?

What's with American men today? Did you all grow up in nice little cocoons with handmaidens and McMommy bending over backward to give you guys whatever you wanted just because you all whimpered? Is this why today's men look at everyone else as a demon or criminal but themselves? Meanwhile, some of today's American men have yet to get through a single honest day in their lives?

The pot calling the kettle black? You bet.

Have any of you actually read the Florida Stand Your Ground Law?? It is a self defense of last resort not a disrespect me and I will kick your ass.. I am glad that people with such low moral standards do not live near or interact with me.. Just because you think violence is #1 on your list of responses to any situation does not make it acceptable.. George is being subjected to a show trial to appease people like you who think threats, riots and vandalism are the way responsible people act..

What PATHETIC reporting.

Headline: Key witness in Trayvon Martin shooting changed story

Story: "The witness stuck to his account that he saw Martin, 17, straddling Zimmerman and pinning him to the ground before Martin was shot."

Yes, it's entirely reasonable to think the person on the ground, being beaten, is shouting for help. When was the last time you saw a fight when the person was beating the crap of the person begins to call for help. Help for what, help for a brick to finish the job?

The main stream media, and MSNBC are guilty of journalistic malpractice and their conduct has been despicable. I'm just surprised they didn't show a photo of Martin in Kindergarten, or report that he once earned a B in Phys Ed. Anything possible to continue to fan the flames of this race baiting story.

If Martin suckerpunched Zimmerman and assulted him so vicisouly, as reported by eyewitnesses, then Martin got what he deserved.

.

ewent

Yea, Mr. No Limit Po Little Trayvon was a real choirboy wasnt he, how many times was he suspended? When they finally show a recent picture youre going to see a grillmouthed tatted up wannabe thug.

With the Stand Your Ground Law you have to prove that you were in danger or thought you were. You people act like it is an episode of South Park where all you have to do is yell "It's coming for us" and then you can legally shoot someone. I think Zim had no chance of a stand your ground defence but he does have a chance of self defence. No one saw who started the fight. He may be guilty but there is no way anyone can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zim was not just defending himself.

Hasn't anyone heard yet about Trayvon's girlfriend's testimony? According to what she heard, Zimmerman WAS the aggressor. Makes more sense. Why would someone who is running away from someone else suddenly turn around and attack him? Makes more sense that Zimmerman caught up to Trayvon and attacked HIM, and Trayvon defended HIMSELF - not the other way around. And, considering that Trayvon only had a small cut on one of his fingers, it's hard to believe that he was able to do much damage at all to Zimmerman before he shot him. As for who was screaming, doesn't it make more sense that the person being confronted by someone with a gun would be the one screaming? Why would Zimmerman be screaming? All he had to do was pull out his gun and shoot Trayvon - which is exactly what he did. As for who was on top, I'm sure they were BOTH on top at one point or another during the struggle.

Zimmerman has proven himself to be a liar - and a bad liar, at that - yet, there are so many who would believe his lies, rather than believe this was what it was: A hate crime that started with racial profiling and could have been avoided, if only Zimmerman had listened to the 911 operator and stopped pursuing Trayvon.

The fact that Zimmerman never threw a punch (absence of the relevant injuries on Martin) indicates that Martin was not "standing his ground." He was not being attacked. The "stand your ground" law means the prosecution has to prove it wasn't self-defense. Had Martin been successful (e.g. if Zimmerman were unarmed) he wouldn't even have the gunshot wound. A complete lack of injuries (other than those caused by attacking) will prove that self-defense does not apply. Zimmerman's got injuries showing he was attacked.

Once again for people who can't seem to get it, injuries do not prove that you were not the aggressor. He could have pushed Martin, he could have grabbed at Martin, he could have attempted to restrain Martin. Martin was being pursued by a stranger and he had no idea what Zimmerman's intentions were. Even when given an opportunity to identify himself, Zimmerman chose not to. When asked why he was following him, why didn't he tell Martin that he was the neighborhood watch and was wondering what he was doing in the neighborhood instead of trying to be aggressive and demand to know what he is doing there? Even the police have to identify themselves to someone that they are chasing and/or attempting to subdue.

Obummer got 96% of the black vote.

He also got the majority of the college-educated vote.

The prosecutor is releasing tidbits of evidence to keep her name in the news so she can get political support.

The media cant resist sensationalizing anything that will get ratings(actual news is secondary). I wonder if there are any real journalists left.

Zimmerman"s lawyer said he hasn't seen all the evidence yet so the prosecutor is releasing evidence to the media before discovery.

It would be nice not to hear any more about this until the actual trial when we can see ALL the evidence from both sides.

vote for hitting on the head Rtypo.... Sick of MSNBC (AKA Most Support News for Bama Channel) Mixing and matching the truth.... editing 911 tapes, Showing a 7 year old pic of TM, Refering to Mr Zim as "White Hispanic"????,,, whats that. As been said... This will not Bring TM back and I feel for his family.. I also think the Race baiting (Al Sharp and Jesse need to appologize) I'm not a lawyer but Ive seen lesser "self defense" stick and the evidence keeps mounting that TM was the one at the Wrong place and time. The time line places the call and the shooting less than Five minutes apart and they was near his truck.... That alone shows that if Zim chase TM... it wasn't very far or fast. My prayer goes to the family and to Zim's because he and his family has also been threatened.... This whole case just is'nt right... I guess Ill just pray and watch this train wreck of justice.

Flame77-7, a 17 year old is not going to look like a 28 year old man. Trayvon was a guest in that complex, so he was not at the wrong place at the wrong time. Zimmerman could not have known everybody that lived there or who might be visiting. He was a volunteer neighborhood watch not an elected one, meaning he was no wanted. I hope you noticed how quickly they had him move from the community. His truck was not near by, it was several streets away, so he had to run to keep up with Martin. The boy was standing near the office in the shadows, not far from his destination, and that clown Zimmerman was still looking around. Anybody would approach a person chasing them for no apparent reason. You are not suspcious because you are black and wearing a hoodie, because it is raining. All complex look a like at night in the rain, and when you don't live there it's only natural to look around and find your directions. Zimmerman had no damn business following Trayvon, the police was on the way, and he was only walking and talking on the phone. He did not see the boy trying to break into any windows or doors. He only noticed that the kid was black and wearing a hoodie. Had the kid been white or hispanic, would he have followed, probably not. In his small mind only blacks commits crimes, Fla. is full of latino criminals but he only saw "Black". Jeese and Al helped to get the justice department invoived to prevent another black kid's death going unnoticed. It is ridiculous for anyone to think that black parents do not love their children as much as any other race. George Zimmerman has a record but his parents loves him. Someone here mentioned Trayvon's school record and character but remember now he was only 17. Yes, the school suspensed him for being late, for writing on a building and for what they thought was a small amount drug. Now here is George Zimmerman fully grown man, in a bar fight with Sanford police, and he and his ex-girlfriend having a knock down drag out fight and gets arrested. He tooked the course to become a policeman but wasn't smart enough to pass it. The person on this post that mentioned Martin's schooling and abiiities really should have read up on Zimmerman. It is much easier to catch up at age 17 than it is at 28. Zimmerman moved to Florida from somewhere else because of trouble, so his records should be checked. I think the man has a mental problem and a problem wth black men.

"Now here is George Zimmerman fully grown man, in a bar fight with Sanford police, and he and his ex-girlfriend having a knock down drag out fight and gets arrested. He tooked the course to become a policeman but wasn't smart enough to pass it."

Zimmerman was NOT "In a bar fight" with Sanford PD,Zimmerman also was NOT convicted of domestic violence-and there is no evidence of any "knock down drag out fight"

You can be charged with domestic violence just because your girlfriend tells the police you yelled at her-charged and convicted are two totally different things.

You know for a fact that Zimmerman didn't pass the police exam because "he wasn't smart enoug to pass it"?

A LOT of people-who are now police officers- did not pass the exam the first time they took it.

"Jeese and Al helped to get the justice department invoived to prevent another black kid's death going unnoticed."

That's hilarious-Jesse and Al didn't say a word about all the black people who were shot in Chicago over St Patricks weekend,or say a word about the 6 year old black child shot and killed in chicago that weekend did they? NO-Jesse and AL only show up when they think they can get their names in the papers,or get on the news shows.

You are putting down those who say Zimmerman is innocent-yet you assume Trayvon Martin was innocent-guess what-unless YOU were there-YOU do NOT know what happened.

Avery,

"He was a volunteer neighborhood watch not an elected one, meaning he was no wanted. I hope you noticed how quickly they had him move from the community"

And where did you get that from? Most of his neighbors thought he was a nice guy and apprecaited him trying to help them. Did you look at the officially submitted evidence? He is repeatedly referred to as the Neighborhood Watch Captain in the neighborhood's newsletters, with his name and phone number available, looking for help from other neighbors. There is even a dialogue between him and the local PD about a neighborhood crime watch seminar and Q&A that he helped put on between concerned members of his community and the officers, and apparently (according to the police evidence) it was successful. So the actual evidence being used to try the case suggests the exact opposite of your statement, along with prior interviews of neighbors in his community by the media.

"volunteer" is simply the official designation given to someone who is doing something in an UNPAID role. it doesn't NOT suggest that people didn't want him because he wasn't elected. that's a silly conclusion to draw.

This ongoing mess should cause all, no matter the side they are on, great stress. We again allow media and crooked politicians to fire the population up for various reasons, certainly for their personal reasons. Lets face it, the kid is dead and GZ is not going to be convicted. The Feds are looking at charges for a hate crime which will further divide the country only to present the black community with a reason to vote for the current president. The current administration uses this type of situation to hide its lack of any success for the past 3 + years and build support for the Bum in office. And yet, our country goes along for the ride forgetting what this is really about. Enough of this! Are race wars really where we are headed? Do we want this? Get ready if GZ is let off. Buy your black rifle and learn how to use it. A revolution is coming and it will not be pretty.

Zimmermann had his problems but was a decent sort.

The teen was on his way back to the apartment he was visiting after going to the store and purchasing (not stealing) items he wanted. He had committed no crimes, he was talking to his girlfriend, and minding his own business, until George Zimmerman decided he looked "suspicious". When a grown man starts following a teenager, that teen will either take off or "stand his ground"..... ohhh doesn't sound right when anyone says Trayvon had that right, does it?

George Zimmermann (a) had no business taking a gun with him and (b) should never have gotten out of his car and followed anyone. Calling in to report any "suspicious" person(s) was all he was supposed to do. He was not a security guard or a police officer.

People trying to call Zimmerman a "hero" for defending his apartment complex and/or standing his ground are only looking at one side of the picture. They need to understand that as an invited guest, Trayvon had rights as well; and when Zimmerman decided to get out of his car and follow Trayvon, he violated Trayvon's rights.

@navy . . . . . In Oregon the law is called "harassment", it is when someone starts a fight by throwing the first punch. After that you can protect yourself.

all thats known is that GZ followed TM with a gun after he was told by police not to follow.he obviously caught up with him.if there was a fight(we don't know),then stand your ground laws would work for TM.i seriously doubt GZ turned around to go back to his truck or that TM followed him to confront him.all this is told by the man left standing so you cant believe it(trying to save his hide).thats why his story gets better as time goes on.if an unarmed black kid tried to get away from a stalker that would not change if the stalker turned around to go back to a truck.he would still try to avoid the stalker.he chased him knowing that gun was a factor."these a-holes always get away"that was his frame of mind as he chased the kid.i thought cops didn't take any photos of GZ.boy,if i was in that kind of trouble,i might pop myself in the nose or scuff my head too.make it up as you go the other guy cant speak up.

I live on the west coast and I call the little bastards that like to sneak around in the dark, break into homes, steal things from your yard, tag your neighborhood, stare you down when you walk the streets etc A-HOLES too. And way too many of these A-HOLES, of all colors, are getting away with it every single day. IN the Salem-Keizer area that I live the gangs are predominately made up of Hispanics, then, blacks, Asians, and whites last. In Portland Black and Hispanics gangs are prominent. Unfortunately the gang situation here in Oregon continues to grow as that type of population moves up from California right along with the hard working decent citizens trying to get away from the problems there. It has to start with parents to stop this crap!!! Keep your hooligans off the streets and pay attention to what the hell they are doing. But I guess that goes to deaf ears when the parents grew up the same way! Don't care what color they are. Scumbags are just that, scumbags!

Trayvon was well on his way to a life of crime.

BS zimmerman is the real Gangster Thug.

sniff... my comment was collapsed by "community"... well chalk one up for freedom of speech and opposing view points (no harm done just find it funny)

Blondeness:

Let me ask you something. How do you identify someone to the police if, by the time they get there, the guy is gone and you don't know where he is? I can understand why Zimmerman was following someone he thought was suspicious. But, no, you're saying that Zimmerman should have been happy that places were getting robbed. You don't think he should have tried to do anything that might lead to the police catching the perpetrators. (The police certainly weren't interested in more work.) And you think that he should have been unarmed so that he could be dead.

I'm not calling Zimmerman a hero. I'm saying he shot in self-defense -- because his life depended on it. And I'm saying his actions are understandable in light of a police department that doesn't want to get there fast enough to see whoever someone thinks is robbing places before they are long gone.

That is not what she is saying. His job was to observe and report. Once he got out of his vehicle when Martin attempted to get away from the stranger following him he overstepped his bounds. Zimmerman did not observe Martin doing anything illegal. Unless walking down the street in the dark in the rain with your hoodie up is illegal. He had already described Martin to the police while in his vehicle and observing him. Zimmerman was not a police officer or a security officer and he basically had no right to pursue anyone who has not committed a crime to him or his property with a weapon. As a matter of fact, there was no indication that Martin had committed any crime at all. He just decided that because he matched the general description (young black male) of the perpetrators of previous crimes, he must be one of them and he was not going to let him get away this time.

Calista Ballistic, I agree. This is a very brave person, to come forward, tell the truth and not bend to the popular racist opinon.

He also said it was dark, so maybe Travon wasn't on top.

The witness, isn't changing the statement tha Trayvon was on top...only about who he heard was yelling for help. John (W#6), is finally realizing that it's not going to look good for him in the end to lie for GZ. Remember, this very same witness was quite 'adamant' in both written and recorded statements to the police about who was yelling for help. He gives the impression that he's right outside his door, so even though it was dark, he had the best 'hearing' advantage of any of the other witness. He made it seem like he could clearly hear GZ's voice calling out. Which if you think about it...if he was that close, unlike the rest hearing from 'inside', he couldn't tell the difference between a grown man's voice and the screams of a teenager.

If Trayvon was still on top at time of shooting, it's my guess that he was screaming for dear life because GZ had already pulled the gun, and he had a good enough grip on Trayvon's hoodie that he was unable to free himself. Could also explain why GZ didn't have any defensive wounds to his hands. Gun in one, and holding on to Trayvon with the other. If you think back to father and brother Zimmerman's account, as given by GZ, he was being beaten so severly that he nearly lost consciousness and Trayvon had his hand covering GZ's nose and mouth. So at what point was it that the witness, in his inital statement, heard GZ yelling?

The witness wasn't lying for Zimmerman. The prosecution is of the mind that the truth hurts its case. So we see a little witness-tampering going on. Martin had no reason to cry for help. He was the one doing all the attacking. Now, Ethnicbutee might want you to believe that Zimmerman was a wizard who cast a spell on Martin making Martin beat Zimmerman (resulting in the injuries we see) while screaming because he can't stop himself. But it just doesn't make sense. Martin beat Zimmerman of his own free will. And he was on top of Zimmerman of his own free will. What he didn't know was that Zimmerman had a gun to get Martin off him.

Sorry, the witness was lying. They figured that he would get off with the SYG statute and they wouldn't have to testify in a court of law so they wouldn't have to worry about perjury. I have said right from the beginning that I could not believe that someone was close enough in the dark and in the rain to actually see who was screaming and did not even attempt to help his neighbor but ran away to call the police. But then I also find it very suspicious that from the time that Zimmerman started following Martin to the time that he shot Martin, the only witnesses that claim to have seen anything, all saw the same part. Not one person saw Martin walking down the street and being followed. Not one person saw Zimmerman pursuing Martin as he tried to get away. Not one person saw Zimmerman walking back to his vehicle as he claims. Not one person saw Martin attack Zimmerman. Not one person saw Zimmerman shoot Martin. But for those few seconds when Martin was supposedly on top of Zimmerman beating him, there are a few witnesses. But he has injuries you say? What if he pushed Martin? What if he attempted to restrain Martin thinking that he could hold him until the police arrived? Would either of those be reason enough for Martin to defend himself?

Zimmerman brought it on himself. He wasn't bullied when he approached Martin with a gun. If he can start the fight, then he can see it to the end too.

Green???? If he can start it....you DO realize your testimony is probably under gag order. Better shut up before you're found in contempt. Feel free to email me the details I missed that are CLEARLY not matching up with the details they used to charge him. Zimmerman is SO going free, even if not for stupid people like.....well, idiots who can't see the circumstances for the color...must be bright.

GreenHulk,

Moral of the story: Don't bring two fists to a gun fight.

greenhulk,

If that's your plan, you better make sure the other guy doesn't have a gun first.

If they have a gun then I'll go to plan B. Turn green and mean and rip my pants.

Nice job of trying to justify this but the fact remains that Mr. Martin was attacked by this punk and this punks daddy who is a judge and no doubt a corrupt one at that, protected his punk son just like any other loser. Sorry, your logic is non-existent.

Byron Allen

Who had the broken nose? black eyes? lacerations on the back of the head?

Who started the fight? That's all that matters for the conviction. Getting your ass whipped in a fight you started does not give you the protection of 'self defense' nor 'stand your ground.' Arguments like yours are futile.

Zimmerman's father was not a judge. He was a court magistrate. There is a difference.

Byron Allen -

Are you freakin' kiddin? PLEASE think of what you just posted. Number one Trayvon Martin was unarmed. Number 2 George Zimmerman was carrying a loaded gun - how can an unarmed person defend himself against a loaded weapon? Number 3 Trayvon Martin is a minor, who was walking home minding his own business. During the 911 call the dispatcher told Zimmerman NOT to follow Martin, but Zimmerman ignored the order and pursued Martin anyway. Number 4 Martin was trying to defend himself by fighting off Zimmerman, but Zimmerman knew he had the upper hand because he had a gun and used it, not to wound Martin, but to KILL him - I call Zimmerman a coward because he knew he had the advantage with his gun.

If you continue to defend George Zimmerman, then this world has more closed mind people than I could ever imagine or are you all bigots? It is truly sad.

From the evidence released, there were no witnesses who could determine who started the fight. I understand that Zimmerman was stupid for getting out of his car and wanting to play police officer. But, that isn't illegal. There is about 80 seconds of time in which no evidence has been released yet, that can shed some light as to how the confrontation happened.

If a police officer was being beaten "MMA style" he would be justified in using his fire arm. The fact that Mr. Martin did not know that Mr. Zimmerman had a fire arm is irrelevant.

I agree. This is a case of an avoidable loss of life. But, this is clearly not murder 2.

Byron Allen - What makes you think Martin wasn't defending himself from Zimmerman?

who was the adult with a gun?

Byron Allen

Who had the broken nose? black eyes? lacerations on the back of the head? There is no doubt that Trayvon was beating Zimmerman and that Zimmerman defended himself with his gun. There is ZERO chance that there will be a conviction on any charge and I hope that Zimmerman sues MSNBC, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton , NBC, CBS, and ABC. This case is just like the Duke rape case...a fraud perpetrated by racists like Jackson and supported by the media.

Good luck with that LoL It's hilarious how the "stand your ground" only seems to apply to George Zimmerman. From Trayvon Martin's perspective he was being followed and harrassed by an armed thug and decided to "stand his ground" and upon doing so he get's shot and killed. Zimmerman needs to get locked up as he is a menace to society.

The law as it is written: pay attention to 2a, it may not be the spirit of the law but it is the language of the law.

FLORIDA CHAPTER 776: JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

That Zimmerman had a gun, and they Martin did not...actually proves nothing. Everyone posting that this proves Zimmerman started it- is smoking crack. One had a gun. one did not. That in and of itself proves nothing.

If Zimmerman was being beaten- as evidenced by photos, Dr report, and eyewitness accounts- Zimmerman can defend his life, with force if necessary. It is unfortunate that someone died- that does not mean Martin does not share some, or even a great percentage of the blame here.

That Martin was a pot smoking kid suspended from school, acting strangely darting in an out of cover- does not put the blame on him...it only gives credence to Zimmerman's suspicions. Martin acted strangely, was unknown in the area. Zimmerman did the right thing calling the cops.

Should Zimmerman have remained in his vehicle- probably, but that doe not make him an instigator or aggressor.

An misunderstanding led to an altercation, which lead to Zimmerman being injured...and Martin dead. I can't blame one man more than the other in this...how can you?

@T-Rex

Someone can start the fight thinking they have upper hand and when they got beaten, they would use the last resort. This entire situation can be avoidable, but Zimmerman chose not to and provoke the confrontation.

He shot Martin to the heart, yes, not arms, or legs, but straight to the lethal zone. In most fight, you only shot to the head or heart when you are close or near mid range with high confident, which showed that Zimmerman decide to kill, not injure.

Waiting to see a photo taken of that broken nose. That scratch...... about as serious as picking his nose or a zit. What is clearly shown by this blog is there is too many rascist out there that have no clue that this is not the civil war era. If you served in the armed service, you see first hand the color of blood is the same red in each race. Don't like a kid because he was black period...... so you try and find something in his past to justify his being murdered. Nothing....absolutely NOTHING in Trayvons past has anything to do with being murdered. He was stalked by Zimmerma WHO IMAGINED Trayvon was guilty of something and said so, "They always get away." His mind said Trayvon was guilty and he had to catch Trayvon. NO he had no right to stop Trayvon.

Anyone who carries a weapon should know that you are not allowed to shoot to wound. You are not supposed to draw your weapon unless you intend to kill that individual. Furthermore you are allowed to continue firing until the threat is nuetralized.

Star sailing--have you ever HAD a broken nose? I've only known two people who did--one was my daughter, whose airbag went off in a car wreck, and the other was a friend of hers who got kicked in the nose during dress rehearsal of a play she was starring in. NEITHER of them showed any more 'symptoms' than Zimmerman did in the pics the police took that night, but the NEXT DAY was a WHOLE different story. Both had considerable swelling, and two black eyes, and had trouble breathing. The actress (a high-schooler) eventually had to have surgery to repair hers, my daughter wasn't hit by anything as hard as a foot or fist, so hers, while really sore, healed on its own, with only being taped up by the doctor--the NEXT DAY, by the way--she too didn't think she needed to go to the ER, but after lying down all night, and the blood draining into her eyes, and waking up in pain, she, evidently like Zimmerman, changed her mind and DID go to the doctor. So don't pressume to judge whether Zimmerman's nose was broken by the cop shots.

And you seem to not think anything about the cuts/blood on his HEAD. If I had a broken nose, and a banged head, I SURE wouldn't be thinking of ANYTHING but how to 'make it stop'--certainly not stopping to consider whether an 'arm shot' would do it. As NavyVet says above--my dad taught me to shoot a gun when I was 12, and taught me that IF I ever pulled the gun out, I needed to shoot to KILL, because too many times when someone does NOT, the gun eventually gets turned on them afterwards.

Just stfu, stupid.

nobsartist

Zimmermans wounds were self inflicted. Had this jackass not had a corrupt judge for a dad, he would be in jail.

Zimmerman = GUILTY= DEATH SENTENCE

No comment here has merit, except non thinking a$$wipe.

I get it, Zimmerman was beating poor little Trayvons fists with his face and that makes him the aggressor.

I remember when I was a kid back to my country, After school other kids were always trying to attack me. Since I was a quiet kid, the aggressive kids always thought that they could just came tome and beat me up. I would never let that to happen, I would fight them and beat them up. Everyone who got beat up by me, had a lot of respect for me and never tried to attack me again. My point between Zimmerman was man to man fighting, there was no point to pull a gun a shoot the other person. This didn't make any sense, unless the other person had a gun or a Knife. That way I would called that "Self defense". Even though you wanted to shoot the person, you could avoid the death. Once the person saw that you have gun, he would be afraid of you. Scratches on the face and head, doesn't make any difference. George Zimmerman needs to go in jail for life.

Myohmy - What bearing does martins age have to do with it? Keep seeing martins press picture when he was 12?

What bearing is it that martin was unarmed if he knew zimmerman was? Rather pointless for someone to not backdown from a superior force... Oh I know, martin really wanted to commit suicide and zimmerman was his weapon of choice.

I am content to wait for the presented trial evidence and results, if the DA pursues just a murder2 conviction, zimmerman will walk. Then again I do like making spot checks on people who can't follow evidence.

If Martin hadn't been a drug user he would still be alive.
I can't believe how bent out of shape everyone is over this one single case.

@Teenfighter You are obviously in the wrong country; we aren't required to submit to a beating here.

nobartist

Zimmermans wounds were self inflicted.

I think Martins wounds were self inflicted, he grabbed the gun and was too stupid to figure out which end the bullets came out of.

I think Martins wounds were self inflicted, he grabbed the gun and was too stupid to figure out which end the bullets came out of. steve 2081387 7.22

trayvon being a 'hoodie wearing thug,' of course he knew from what end of a gun bullets come . all 'thugs' do, don't they, steve?/sarc

That child beat Zimmerman's fat pathetic ass.

So Armyguy, but if you are in a fight with another person....shooting them is self-defense??

That "child" was bigger that Zimmerman. At 17 he was already a thug.

The evidence states that GZ never hit TM.

You have to remember that according to the law once you gain the advantage you have two options which are to back off, which maintains one's status of self defense, or to continue in that altercation, which then means you are the aggressor. How it started I, nor any of you know, but we do know when Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman and at such time at the very latest he was legally the aggressor. Like it or not, that is the law.

@verno: Depends if my life were in danger. If I was on the ground with an individual on top of me smashing my head into the ground I sure as hell would. Would you? And don't give some bs answer, would you yes or no, if you were in a physical alteration in which your life was at risk shoot the individual inflicting the grievous bodily harm to you?

Armyguy-3910615

Yes, the guy beating the crap out of the guy on the ground was screaming "help." What an idiot.... Whatever the circumstances leading to the altercation, it is clearly evident that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman smashing Zimmerman's head onto the ground. That isn't self defense.....

I see, so because the guy defending himself ends up overpowering the agressor he is no longer defending himself?

I can't believe the people here that don't understand self defense or the self defense laws. If someone follows you aggressively, even in states where there isn't stand your ground (you just have to try to retreat), you have the right to self defense.

What would you do if a stranger cruising by in a car, stops, gets out aggressively, then chases you, in the middle of the night? There is not a man alive (and women too) that wouldn't beat the crap out of a weirdo following him at night.

The right to self defense goes to Trayvon. Just because Trayvon started winning the ensuing fight doesn't mean Zimmerman gets any self defense right.

The first person being aggressive here was Zimmerman, and anyone in Trayvon's place would have done the same as him (i.e tried to get away, called a friend to say a weirdo was following you, then tried to beat the crap out of the guy when he kept following you).

Even if Martin attacked Zimmerman in self defense. Once Zimmerman started yelling for help it was Martin's job to cease the attack. He didn't and therefore got shot.

Wait a minute: If you fight with your fists your required to give up when he calls uncle????

But if you draw a pistol you shoot to kill????

What is wrong with this reasoning????

When do you quit then smart guy? When the person you are beating stops breathing? There is a line, and Martin crossed it Zimmerman cried for help and Martin didn't stop. Did you know that if someone had came to Zimmerman's aid and shot Martin it would have been his legal right?

Nothing is wrong with this reasoning. It's about the show of deadly force, and if Martin didn't stop when Zimmerman cried for help, Martin was showing deadly force.

Julian

"The first person being aggressive here was Zimmerman, and anyone in Trayvon's place would have done the same as him (i.e tried to get away, called a friend to say a weirdo was following you, then tried to beat the crap out of the guy when he kept following you)."

But that is clearly not what happened if you look at the evidence. On the call between the dispatcher and Zimmerman, he reports Trayvon running, is told he does not need to follow, Zimmerman stops running, and stays on the phone with the dispatcher for over 80 seconds. If Martin felt threatened or fear from Zimmerman by the time he had even hung up the phone with the police department Martin should have already been home by a long shot, and certainly very far away from Zimmerman, who clearly on the tape was no longer in pursuit. The most you can possibly argue is that Zimmerman continued to walk after Martin, and unless he found a segway to jump on during the tape without anyone knowing, I don't see how he could possibly have kept up with Martin during that time. But clearly Martin did not run away and go home when he had the opportunity, and within a minute and a half of Zimmerman's call ending, the first 911 call came in reporting a fight, and in the general area between where Zimmerman lost Martin, and where his truck was. This seems to indicate that for whatever reason, Martin and Zimmerman met on the way back to his truck, in the opposite direction of where Martin was staying, and easily could have gotten back to had he wanted to. So the question becomes why didn't Martin run home if, as you say, he felt he was being chased by a dangerous unknown figure and was threatened?

You keep saying gz was calling for help when it was Travon calling for help, also until cross examination we really don't know who was on top.

John Sixty

That child beat Zimmerman's fat pathetic ass.

And he got his dumb thug ass capped for it didnt he.

verno - So Armyguy, but if you are in a fight with another person....shooting them is self-defense??

It depends. If the other person started it and it looks like you are at risk of serious injury, yes. If you are on the ground with a person on top of you landing mma style ground and pound blows on you, you will not last long.

Perhaps you don't realize how many people each year die from nothing but punches. On average, about 6% of all murders are limited to punches. Those are the ones that it can be proven no other blunt trauma was used and they didn't fall and hit their head. Many of the deaths are from a single punch. Quite a few have no visible bleeding or broken bones.

Commander McBrag

Armyguy-3910615

Yes, the guy beating the crap out of the guy on the ground was screaming "help." What an idiot.... Whatever the circumstances leading to the altercation, it is clearly evident that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman smashing Zimmerman's head onto the ground. That isn't self defense.....

I see, so because the guy defending himself ends up overpowering the agressor he is no longer defending himself?

You can't defend yourself until you have either been attacked or threatened. There is no proof that Zimmerman did either. There is proof that Martin did punch and assaulted Zimmerman in terms of both injuries and eyewitnesses.

Grandpa-2986035

You keep saying gz was calling for help when it was Travon calling for help, also until cross examination we really don't know who was on top.

How do you know that Trayvon was calling for help? Testimony from one witness was that it was Zimmerman calling for help. Zimmerman's father and family said it was Zimmerman. Martin's father says it wasn't Martin. The FBI said it is not possible to tell from the audio with certainty. Logic says that the person on top beating someone into the ground would not be yelling for help.

Multiple witnesses put Martin on top of Zimmerman. No one has said they saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. All injuries show that Martin was on top hitting Zimmerman. Grass stains and wet back of his jacket show that Zimmerman was on the ground with his face up. Lack of grass stains and wet back show that Martin was not on the ground underneath Zimmerman.

Are you even following the case?

And that witness has recanted. What else would his family say when he claimed that it was him? Martin's father said he was not sure, not that it wasn't him. Martin's mother said it was him, but then what else would she say. They were not there so they have no idea.

Wow, there are a bunch of people that put Martin on top of Zimmerman for a few seconds, yet there is not a single witness that saw Zimmerman following Martin, Zimmerman chasing Martin, Martin actually attacking Zimmerman or Zimmerman shooting Martin. How convenient that the only witnesses there are (all his neighbors of course) only saw Martin getting the best of Zimmerman. Martin's back wasn't wet? How did he achieve that since it was raining and he was found lying face down when the police arrived? How did he manage to end up face down if he was shot at close range while he was on top of Zimmerman? Wouldn't it be logical that he would have to be rolled off of Zimmerman which would place him on his back?

Initiating the contact doesn't matter. You don't have to wait for the other guy to actually shoot you before defending yourself. As soon as someone aggressively follows you and you feel sufficiently threatened (weirdo stops a car and chases you at night) you are allowed self defense (in any state even without stand your ground laws).

Also, even if Martin had seen a gun (I agree he probably didn't) he would probably fight for his life anyway.

Anyway, people here don't understand self defense laws if they think you only get self defense after a person actually hits you or shoots you.

Um yes it does. It determines attacker and defender. Martin would have never initiated contact if he thought Zimmerman had a pistol. No one in their right mind would.

NavyVet--the thing I always wondered about this case is why would Trayvon attack Zimmerman, and the only POSSIBLE reasons I can think of was that he thought Zimmerman was trying to ROB him, or ARREST him.

And the second seems more likely, to me, given that Trayvon had already had run ins with authority figures.

IF he had, despite being suspended for drug use, recently used MJ again, he might have been afraid that this time he might have to face police rather than school officials.

It is also fairly believable to me that it is as simple as Trayvon, being a football player, a good looking kid, who had no problems in the past with defying authority, decided to 'teach a lesson' to the smaller "old guy", and misjudged Zimmerman.

Either way, it is sad. Kids seem to feel like they are invincible, and the results are often tragic.

It is. I don't know why people have a problem with authority. When you aren't doing anything wrong, what is there to be scared about. Furthermore if Martin had thought his life was in danger or that he was going to be robbed, why not call the police? Why not bang on someones door? Too many questions left unanswered.

He's dead, so I guess he had something to be scared about.

NavyVet81 - I agree completely. I can't see a kid who was so into gangbanger culture (which is not illegal) thinking that the guy had a gun and would move into range for a fistfight. He would have had to be out of his mind on drugs to do that. Which of course, if he was out of his mind on drugs, would be a reason for him to attack someone.

As you say, it is very clear that the physical confontation was started by Martin just due to the injuries that each had.

JulianAb - Initiating the contact doesn't matter. You don't have to wait for the other guy to actually shoot you before defending yourself. As soon as someone aggressively follows you and you feel sufficiently threatened (weirdo stops a car and chases you at night) you are allowed self defense (in any state even without stand your ground laws).

That is legally incorrect. Think about what you are saying. If one of your neighbors gets out of their car and moves towards you which is also the direction to their front door and you can legally shoot them in self defense? That is the logical follow through of your statement.

To claim self defense, you must have either an attack against you or a threat of such attack. It can't just be they are behind you, talked to you, made you angry, etc. So where is the proof that Zimmerman either attacked Martin or threatened him? That's right, there is none. The only injuries Martin suffered were injuries to knuckles and the fatal gunshot that ended the conflict. And you realize that bruising of his knuckles would be less than evident because the heart stopped beating immediately. What are the injuries that Zimmerman suffered? All of them are on the head and face with none to the hands.

MOmaid, I am sure that Trayvon did not think that Zimmerman was a cop that is going to arrest him considering that if it would have been a cop pursuing Trayvon he would have had to identify himself as such.

Don, you don't think that a person would have a reason to believe that someone may be attempting to attack them when that person has been following them in their vehicle and when they attempt to get away that person gets out of said vehicle and chases them? He was not just behind Trayvon, he was actively pursuing Trayvon. Where is the proof that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and if he did attack Zimmerman he did it without being provoked? That's right, there is none.

CHRISMIL-The existence or lack of an organized neighborhood watch does not have any bearing on the situation. Zimmerman had every right to be there, be armed, and monitor the actions of a suspicious looking person in his neighborhood.

or as an "incredible" witness, as it were.

Both of you have a point there ... MSNBC is baiting this story every day. The witness changing their story should be something MSNBC is used to hearing and seeing, since they only hear and see what they want ... instead of evidence. The pleasure some of the people at MSNBC experience with stories like this one, must be like losing some of their sperm count on a weekend date.

if it wasn't for race baiting and Obama worship MSNBC would cease to exist.

I have said right from the beginning, how would anyone know who was actually screaming for help in the dark in the rain unless they were close enough to actually help out the person that was screaming. And if they were actually close enough to help why did they run away and call the police instead of assisting their neighbor? I mean he shot Trayvon only seconds later yet the same witness didn't see that.

#1, TM wasn't a kid. He was a young adult, bgger than Zimmerman, and a football player.

#2 Where is the evidence to suggest that Zimmerman did not heed the dispatcher's advice not to follow?

#3 Where is your proof that Nazi's and KKK support GZ?

#4 assaulting a police officer? That would be public record and you are the first I've heard this "fact" from..

#5 He drank a lot and used drugs? Who had the THC in their blood?

#6 Do you have a clue what a magistrate of the court is?

You are entitled to your own opinions of course, but presenting them as fact is a little bit misleading dontchya think?

Ray in Jax::: Where is the evidence to suggest that Zimmerman DID heed the dispatcher's advice? Oh, that's right-- he said "OK". GZ can lie like many other males do. Bet you lie to save your ass.

Why don't you read other things besides this to find answers. Yes, he did assault officers-- record closed because GZ is an asskisser.