I couldn't care less about the medals. But for them to have a ceremony with Afghans where they lower the American flag and raise a white flag. Well, that makes me want to puke. A symbolic surrender? Wait until the Taliban gets those pictures. Way to give aid and comfort to the enemy. Our losers are giving them a recruiting gold mine.

there wont be a "10 years from now" in which they would ask for them back.

cheetah-822547, What Draft? These soldiers enlisted, they volunteered to go. Are you thinking Viet Nam? Schooldog,Let's hear your whole plan for that one! You must be baking in the sun outside McCormick Place in Chicago!

Onermailliw- perhaps your moral compass on stealing and patriotism is not quite pointing in the right direction.

To acquire wealth by the process of transference by having huge tax breaks for the wealthiest few while they finance the build up of countries that are willing to work the cheapest while demanding fellow Americans to accept huge wage and benefit cuts while marginalizing the political process for working people, this to me is the definition of Treason.

Our Constitutional government is under attack by the wealthiest few who are trying their best to reshape the country into a third world country to benefit their desires for further wealth and power at any price.

What??? Chicago is one of the biggest cities in America and no one works???? As someone who lives in the suburbs and husband works downtown- Pulease grow up and quit stereotyping- how ignorant!!!!

Shaking my head-2479300, the problem with wearing that tn-foil hat in the sun is that it can roast what little brain you do have.

My god, are Americans really this dumb?

Illumination- my moral compass is spot on, your issue is policies set forth by elected officals of this nation. If you don't like the policies, there are instruments in place to try and change it. You should use a less liberal dictionary for your definitions

My hat's off to American citizens who engage fully in democracy by making their views and voices heard. Perhaps people wouldn't protest if our elected officials actually represented their constituents instead of the corporate donors.

For many, we are still undergoing a Depression caused by Criminal Banking Activity in which Banks ripped off an entire country. I wish law enforcement would infiltrate the Banks as zealously as they infiltrate protest groups. If they can catch a terrorist, why can't they catch a Criminal Banker?

Thanking them for doing something that they later regretted and denounced is a form of ridicule. Don't play head games with them like that.

@Shosyn:

Pry your gun from your cold, dead fingers, eh? Well, go ahead and point that gun at some soldiers, police officers, or federal agents, and that is *precisely* what they will do. If you imagine that your grand-daddy's shotgun is any match for an Apache helicopter, a dozen trained men in body armor with full-auto rifles and grenades, or a 200,000-pound M1A1 Abrams tank, you are delusional. Welcome to the 21st Century, where your grand-daddy's shotgun looks good as an antique in a showcase but won't do much good against anything meaner than a bunny rabbit!

@Shandril: your mom says to put Call of Duty away: it's time to go out and play.

@Shakingyour@!$%#inghead,

What a Drama Queen! Was there too much Bran in your muffin this morning? Spreading @!$%# such as yours is not helpful.

About time!

What does marching against conservatives over human rights for women have to do with NATO?

What does anything have to do with anything when it comes to these protesters? Any and all axes that they want to grind will be drug out and bandied about.

1968 all over again.

1968 all over again.

Indeed.

There's a very good reason why Vietnam Vets - like me - oppose war. The last time our country involved itself in a justifiable conflict (WWII) was probably the ONLY time that we fought a justifiable war. Period.

Anyone who disagrees better have their own combat credentials. Armchair warhawks have no business voicing their 'opinions' here. If you didn't care enough to walk the walk, you should have the humility to refrain from talking the talk.

This former specialist Jerry Bordeleau is a self proclaimed marxist he's been laying around occupy for a year in an interview he said he"wouldn't take any job that does not pay mare than 10 dollars an hour" I guess he is just to good for that

schooldog

That's an awfully bold statement from someone who is afraid to type certain words on the internet.

Give up their benefits? They entered a contract, they are entitled to benefits. Medals are like a bonus, you can choose not to accept them.

chris,

Everybody is too good for that. Minimum wage needs to be doubled. The income disparity between the 1% and the rest of us is our biggest domestic problem. Half the country doesn't owe taxes and are on food stamps because their dirtbag employers don't pay them enough to feed themselves.

So how much are you making per hour?

cheetah: "End the draft now!"

I think cheetah's point is no one forced these guys to join. They knew what they were getting into when they signed up. And now they object? They only had to look at our history to see what kind of wars they were likely to fight in.

SonofMollyM

You have to start some where I made 250$ every 2 weeks when I started out in 1996 and I worked hard and made it work and now I live the American dream, so can he.

I_VI_I

Your full of BS the army does not hand out campaign medals any more they just go in your file on paper if you want real medals you have to buy them from clothing and sale. You would know that if you ever earned them. So what did you throw away other then your integrity?

Physicist-retired ~ thank you. U.S. Army myself. The war machine has gained too much power, the propagandists have honed their craft. We're pretty much screwed, I think. Look what we get with a nobel prize winning peace president. God help us when we get another hawk in there.

"The U.S. is slipping into a fascist system" ~ Ron Paul

"Everybody should acknowledge that Fascism is making strides on our planet. What they did in Libya is nearly identical to what Hitler and his armies did against Poland and then Russia." ~ Colonel-General Leonid Ivashov

You're obviously a demented know-nothing shill then... go crawl back under your rock.

*sigh* Humanity could be such a beautiful thing....

Onermailliw- actually my issues are with a system being reshaped by bribery where the people elected to protect the interests of the many are being bought out by the corporate citizenry to pass legislation which is detrimental to the interests of the many people within this country.

I believe if you re-read the Constitution of this country you will see the preamble with the first three words being 'We the people'. It is not we the corporations, we the Bilderbergs, we the international bankers.

I'm not actually as liberal as I am pragmatic. I would vote for any person who sees the current system for what it is and feels the need to change it to what it could be. For instance, maybe one of the phony Conservative politicians could draft legislation that would eliminate the revolving door policy between politicians who oversee corporations by committee from taking a job from within that same group of controlled corporations. You see , that's not so liberal is it ?

I would also see the cause and effect relationship of paying people at a minimum wage salary and then letting the top wage earners have huge tax breaks hasn't worked over the past 30 years. Whether you call it Voodoo economics, trickle down or any other euphemism it makes no sense to any rational person. We need to paid a fair and descent family supporting wage to maintain the integrity of our political system.

I feel the fundamental beliefs in the founding of this country are being destroyed by persons with an agenda of bringing down the standard of living along with real access to the actual political process. The puppets of these multinational scum are unworthy of anything but contempt for them and their treacherous policies for the benefit of a few.

Boys and girls, this is much ado about absolutely nothing. The Chicago Tribune said there were 4000 people in Grant Park. This article said 2800. A crappy high school basketball game can draw that many people!

Go to one of the suburban movie complexes and you will find more than 4000 people. These people have a right to protest. God Bless them. God bless the cops out there on a hot day.

But this is simply not news. This is same old same old being reported by silly reporters dying for a rerun of 1968!

I don't care if you agree with these protester or not but the last time I checked, they have every right to assemble, speak against the war and protest against the war or anything else. After all, some of them served in the military which is probably more than can be said about the majority of the people on this post who are condemning them. It would probably be a different story if we had fought in a war since WWII that was honorable or just.

@Gary 420

Boys and girls, this is much ado about absolutely nothing

I don't think so,Gary. If you study revolutions and rebellions throughout history, the most common denominator is a severe inequity in wealth distribution. There is no reason to think that this country is exempt to this social law. The French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, the unrest in Central and South Americas...the list goes on and on. Almost always, the trigger is extreme concentration of wealth in the hands of a few. If we haven't reached that point yet, we will soon. This isn't a tempest in a teapot. It is,IMO, a harbinger of what's just over the next hill. Poor, hungry, and sick people won't just lie down and down because it would be convenient for the rich to do so. In fact, the few remaining in the middle-class would do well to recognize that they also have a bulls-eye on their chest and eventually, the rich will try to eat them too. I don't espouse rebellion and bloodshed but if this trend continues, it will happen. The only real questions are where the tipping point is and what will actually trigger it. It says something about human nature and the nature of greed that this has already happened so many times and is preventable and yet, here it is unfolding right before our eyes and so many either deny it or think it can be constrained. Human nature, in the end, cannot be constrained. If the rich continue their chevy to own everything, it will end with catastrophic results for almost all.

I find it truly disturbing that so many posters on this very site either don't understand what OWS ia all about and therefore state that the protesters themselves don't know- which is incorrect- or are simply in denial and are trying to discredit the protesters. But, my fellow citizens, if we reach that point, it will be like Z day.

rachel, please toss your keyboard out the window, you will be doing us a favor. Those men and women fought for those benefits and that money so whiny, guns blazin' people like you don't actually have to lift a finger to do anything. Afterall, it's not you marching out to invade another country. I'm sick of the disrespect these soldiers get because they're sick of fighting. It really is Vietnam all over again, and the results are just going to be the same.

We haven't had a truly "won" war since we fought the Axis, and we're desperately fighting to try and get back that glory and prestige... yet the world is seeing us more and more as the beast whose blood we shed in the first place. We could chalk up the Gulf War as a victory, but Saddam stayed alive and well, and in complete power after it.

Schooldog:

Spoken like a truly pathetic useless body sucking up good oxygen! You are no American and unfortunately, your parents spawned you. What's really sad is you are probably one of those non-showering occupiers living on the dole with a big bad corporate Apple gizmo in your pocket.

Take a shower and get a job!

"wouldn't take any job that does not pay mare than 10 dollars an hour" I guess he is just to good for that.

Why? Just because he wants to be paid what he's worth? Even fast-food employees make $10 an hour.

Thomas Blue,

You have a very good comment/response towards Gary420's downplaying of these events in Chicago. I do pose a counter to your argument. You suggest that that the concentration of wealth is the start of the recent civil wars/unrest in history. I would agree with that statement for the conflicts in which you mention, French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, the unrest in Central and South Americas... I think current day America has a major difference from those events. I read a recent article that said America is the most obese society ever with more than 43% of our population as obese. The demographic with the largest amount of obese people was the poor and uneducated.

I found it odd that the people at poverty level in America have too much to eat and have a weight problem. If this is true, I think we need a re-definition of the term poverty level. I believe that in previous civil war conflicts, people were worried about their safety or providing for their families. With our current welfare state, (and poverty level people having weight problems from having too much food) I do not think we are even close to civil war protests. The liberal party knows what they are doing by buying votes with food.

This is just my opinion from articles I have read and I welcome a healthy (non-obese) debate.

The OP is a moron. "Don't ask for them back in 10 years?" Uh, you know they can go to any base and buy new ones right? I don't have any of the medals I was given, I have my ribbon stack somewhere though. Either way, a medal isn't something that if you throw it you've suddenly lost it and can't get a replacement. Rofl. Also, "don't accept them?" Yeah, because it's easy to just go "Eh, I don't want that." Even if it's possible it would be a pain in the ass with the paperwork and the fact that Admin are usually terrible at their job.
Personally I couldn't make the march and if I did have any of my medals or found them I'd have no issue throwing them. I earned them AND bought them (the majority you aren't 'given' a medal, you just rate it and need to go out and buy it derp derp.) If you don't like it then go enlist, earn your own and do w/e you want with them.

When you're in the military you do as your told. If you're told to be somewhere and dressed a certain way, you do it, whether you think you should be or not (to include accepting medals). All those vets saying that they didn't have to accept the medals are #ucking liars. And I still don't understand the whole left wing right wing BS. The media and the government are yanking us all back and forth. They want everyone to point the finger at the other, so we aren't pointing the finger at the ones responsible. Wish we all could see.

Actually northern cities used to be big. Now the big ones are all in the south. Houston DFW Atlanta, Phoenix are ec;ipsing northern cities and The states with the largest population one is in the west and the other is in the south. All of you in the northeast and upper midwest your time has passed. Thanks to the invention of AC.

Go America ~

Your argument is ridicules. The poor are fat because they can't afford good quality food, they live off the dollar menu.

@Go America

That's a good point,Go. And I said almost all rebellions. Actually, I don't think the original Amer. Rev. was about wealth inequality and if you read the Declaration Of Independence- a truly inspired and inspiring document IMO, it seems clear that wealth inequality was not the issue. But as to obesity, as Risha pointed out, that is part of the problem. I am not obese but am a few pounds heavy and now in middle age, find weight loss quite difficult. The cheapest foods- and foods that I love,BTW, will definitely make it hard to lose weight and easy to gain it. Foods like rice,beans, and grains, bleached flour. These are also the foods that are often dispensed in WIC too. Butter, for example. A good diet contains things like some meat, fresh veggies- broc. aint cheap, nor is asparagus, fresh beans or fresh turnip greens. The food given to poor is filling and fattening but not a healthy diet. A big part of the problem is, as conservatives are fond of pointing out, that everyone needs to be self-reliant and self-sustaining. However, as long as most employers are trying to squeeze more work out of fewer people for less money and 8$/hr jobs proliferate, it seems unlikely that the poor will be able to afford to shop at a grocery store for high quality food.

A hypothetical question: if you were absolutely desperate to feed your hungry kids, i.e. they hadn't eaten in 2 or 3 days and were emaciated, would you let them starve or would you do whatever it took to get some food for them? Would you rob or steal if there was no other way to get food? I am not suggesting that this is the case now, but it has been the case in some places in the world and who's to say it could never happen here?

The OWS crowd is very diverse and divergent. I think that it is the tip of the spear. If the TP is successful and if Romney is elected, the poor will absolutely be thrown under the bus. They won't be fat anymore from eating unhealthy foods. They will be very hungry and even starving. Speaking for myself, if I were 25 or 30 Y.O. and had 2 or 3 starving kids at home, I would do whatever it took to get food for them. I would not let them starve as long as I were alive. Some rich guy would have a bad day when I found him. Things here are not at that point yet. But it's heading in that direction. Some see it, some don't. Some just deny it. But it's coming.

returning medals? Please avoid extremism -

but I know life can be tough coming back to civilian life - best wishes.

Learn how to cope, you won't get a medal for succeeding in coping, but it's vey rewarding, don't give up.

How many relocated Occupiers in the bunch? This is a whole new warm season.

What does anything have to do with anything when it comes to these protesters? Any and all axes that they want to grind will be drug out and bandied about.

That is what democracy is all about, getting your voice heard. If you don't like something you have the freedom to assemble and get your point across. It is scary how many Americans don't understand basic democratic principles.

I thank you for your service. I welcome your right to protest wars you feel were unjust. You, more than any of us who were not there, deserve to be heard!

>>A symbolic surrender? Wait until the Taliban gets those pictures. Way to give aid and comfort to the enemy. Our losers are giving them a recruiting gold mine.<<

I agree. The enemy (Taliban\islamists) were abusing women and children. They will eat this up, to the detriment of all.

Are the women & children better off now, or before we arrived? Your service was good, and you did good things. If the Afghan govt. screws it up, well, we gave it our best shot.

Were mistakes made? Of course, as they always will be. Should we stop trying to get it right because we aren't perfect?

But we did what was right, and you should be proud, not ashamed, of your service.

And I agree with the poster who stated that if you are so enamored by the enemy, go and become one of them. You also have that right. I'll bet you do not, because you "don't want to live that way". You should think about what you do today in relation to what your wishes amount to for the poor future victims of the Taliban . . . .

Shaking my head-2479300 Comment collapsed by the community

Has it occurred to anyone that this is falling right in line with Obama's executive orders (aka the king's proclamations) to give him an excuse to declare martial law before the election and lock up anyone who protests.

How damn stupid can people be. We heard the exact same thing about Clinton and about bush. Pull your head out of your rectum. Maybe what you need to learn about is the deal bush signed with Canada about a year before he left office that allows the U.S. President to ask for Canadian troops to help put down civil strife in this country. Canada can ask for American troops.

I love ALL the comments above. They remind me of the exact same mindset of both sides during the latter stages of the Vietnam War. Some of you must be related to the steelworkers of the late 60s.

I was attracted to this article by MSNBC's headline which reads;

US veterans return metals at NATO summit

I love how the republicans cry "support the troops." That is until the troops wake up and stop supporting their lust to use our troops to secure recources and carry out political favors. How about you support the troops by paying your fair share in taxes so we can support them with decent wages, health care and an education.

I think the war hawks duped a lot of people with lies to the media and the media were too lazy to investigate what was true and what were lies. Speaking of FAUX News, it's no wonder so many people are so misinformed about what is happening in the world but in all fairness to FAUX, the other news stations are no better. They report as fact something that is disproved later yet they fail to set the fact straight with the same enthusiasm they had when reporting the lie. They're all guilty.

It's a proven fact that if you prove a person wrong on something they believe, they will go back to believing the misinformation since it was put in their brain first. So by telling people things that are not true, the lie has been planted as "fact". Same with "tell a lie long enough and people will believe it's truth". The point is...people were told that Iraq was manufacturing WMDs which was proven wrong but some people still believe that Iraq was making WMDs. When those people are given the truth they usually change it to Iraq had WMDs. That was not the reason we went to war with Iraq. We knew that Iraq had WMDs because we sold them to Iraq in the 1980s when they were fighting Iran but those WMDs, the ones that had not been used, were useless.

Now with that being said, let's get back to these vets that are protesting. The reason many of them are angry at the government is because they believed the lie and joined the service to fight an evil dictator set to kill many innocent people with WMDs. After they got there they found out they were fighting a lie our government told them and since they were already in the service they had to do as ordered. They saw first hand the killing of innocent people and the fighting from the insurgents who were trying to drive the invaders from their land. Meaning us. It's no wonder many of them are upset with NATO who, just like our own military machine, tries to find reasons to exist. Eisenhower tried to warn America about our military but evidently it fell on death ears and our media allowed it to happen because they were too lazy to investigate the truth.

"I choose human life over war," Jerry Bordeleau shouted through a microphone, before tossing the medals onto the street.

Too bad the islamic extremists didn't! What a slap in the face to the families of the 9-11 victims! Try them all for treason! They don't deserve medals.

He is a fool getting wrapped up in the islamic propaganda. The strategic objective is to unite all of the Islamic countries of the world and lead them into “holy war” or Jihad. Their first declared effort is to focus on driving the west out of the Middle East, then to destroy Israel, liberate Palestine and reestablish muslim authority over holy Jerusalem. The final goal is to replace the Judeo-Christian world order with muslim based world order. Islam has replaced Marxism as the number one ideology and power in the world to destroy western civilization.

Wow! Just WOW! For those that say "if they dont want the medals they can just say no", have you served? Do you know what you speak about? Just curious. You may be able to say no to the physical medal in your hands for presentation (if you want some undue attention) but it will be in your service record and it BETTER be on your uniform for inspection or you are out of uniform. So.... what do you have now?

Also:So what was done as a solution? Throwing medals out in the streets? What was accomplished? DId the Summit stop? NO. Did someone halt the crowd and say "Wait a minute! Why are we all fighting? I understand it all much better since the medals have hit the ground"?. NO. Instead it makes the news, people get to see their name in the paper and on tv and they have a story to tell. But to whom? Others that are doing the same thing? Where does it end? It wont. What does it get them? Nothing but wasting their time and looked at as those that do not appreciate things.

What about actually doing something such as gather signatures and change laws? How about gather signatures and run for office so you can "make a difference"? How about you stop yapping your gums and start positive action that can lead to change for the good? Oh? Dont have time for that? Too busy protesting wanting to "take your ball and go home". Figures.

fenderbluesjr,

You are in serious error with your comment. The soldiers didn't volunteer to go wage wars. What they did was volunteer to serve the Nation in the military- trusting the civilian population and our elected representatives to not send them into ridiculous fights and to not piss away their lives. If anyone has failed anyone or if anyone should be ashamed its sure as hell not these soldiers. It is US, the American people and our elected representatives who have failed them by not standing up to a grandstanding president and his crew. Only ONE person in either the House or the Senate had the balls to stand up and call "BULLSH/T!", and in the next election millions were invested by the republicans to deprive her of her seat in the House of Representatives and have their 'Yes Man' put in.

Its too bad that you don't know or understand the difference between volunteering for military service and wanting to go to war.Someone who lacks an understanding of this basic principle doesn't deserve a vote because they have no idea what the hell they're doing to begin with.

Sorry Friends. This hogwash from the far far left and far far right is way out there. Both sides have those who talk of revolution. YOU are the problem. This unwillingness to work for change within the confines of the law is the problem on both sides. The multinational corporations are killing the U.S. but both sides fail to see it. Laws and court decisions which treat these huge businesses as humans are absurd. If you love your country, this must be addressed. The cause of liberty will be lost to a faceless, nameless, bunch of corporate thieves if we do nothing.

I was in the Army and retired from it. I have several ribbons on my Class A's. I may have second thoughts about some things that I had done now a days. But, I got them for what I had volunteered to do. I will not strip off 1 of those awards no matter how I feel at this time. I look at my uniform and I see my history, my life, my foot prints in the sands of time. I take great pride in my history even though my thoughts on some subjects may have changed.

Donruss original comment collapsed by community? What a joke this "community" can be sometimes.

His comment is "spot on" for how many of us feel about this. I guess; "don't go away mad, just go away," should be this communities mantra.

There are two kinds of morons in this country.

Those who only vote on the extreme left.

And those who only vote on the extreme right.

Replace the Afghanistan vets with these two camps, please, because those vets gave this country their best, while the extremists gave it their worst. Since neither the extreme left or right wants to actually think about anything at all.

My hat is off to all vets, regardless of the medals.

Physicist-retired

1968 all over again.

Indeed.

There's a very good reason why Vietnam Vets - like me - oppose war. The last time our country involved itself in a justifiable conflict (WWII) was probably the ONLY time that we fought a justifiable war. Period.

Anyone who disagrees better have their own combat credentials. Armchair warhawks have no business voicing their 'opinions' here. If you didn't care enough to walk the walk, you should have the humility to refrain from talking the talk.

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#1.28 - Sun May 20, 2012 5:03 PM CDT

Everyone has their OWN opinion but I don't call the American Revolutionary War or World War I unjustifiable. And just because you serviced in the military does NOT make you an authority on the matter. Thank you for your service, but the military is NOT the only way to service your country. I have ancestors who have served in everyone war, battle or conflict the U.S. or pre U.S. has been in since the early 1600's and your statement dishonors their service. Is not just about YOU.

I understand protesting NATO, but isn't the summit about ending the war anyway? So you're protesting during talks about ending the war???? Why wouldn't you have protested earlier? Sounds like a politically motivated game to me.

gc,

I don't call the American Revolutionary War or World War I unjustifiable.

We disagree, then.

Canada didn't fight a Revolutionary War, and they seem to be doing just fine (you'll remember that the Royalists from the Colonies resettled up there).

And what, exactly, did we accomplish by involving ourselves in WWI? We helped to create the environment that killed 50 million people just 20 years later. And it wasn't even any of our business in the first place.

Think about it.

If you personally are willing to lay down your own life for the reasons that were used to justify the RW (taxes!) or WWI (selling arms to England), you have every right to support those wars.

But I certainly wouldn't willingly die for those reasons. Or ask anyone else to do that, either.

Baloney. They earned it. Unfortantely, the cause behind it is flawed. When folks start turning against the troops, you know that the whole thing will eventually crumble. Both political parties are in for blood money so what you gonna do? Whine. March? Each side enjoys and loves the killing. Its about money. Not the troops or whatever people think it is. For every troop in these countries, there is a big company with huge political ties. We have some very sick and twisted people living in congress and the white house. If these troops want to return their earned medals. Good for them. Its not yours or my business. They earned the right to protest. Ala star ship troopers!

Most medals are meaningless anyway now a days.

That's BS. I'm not pro military but I do understand that receiving a symbol for acts of bravery, sacrifice, heroism, and the like are very important for a whole variety of reasons. What have you done to earn the respect of anyone?

The vets returning their medals in protest is hugely symbolic. The Vietnam era vets did the same thing; it was one of the few moments of protest against the war that Congress actually noticed. Back then though their were a lot more representatives that had been in battle themselves and they completely understood how difficult it was for other vets to give up their medals. I'm hoping that the same message isn't lost on a Congress that is now largely made up of Ivy League brats, lawyers, and other entitlement types that don't have similar experience to reflect on.

They earned them. they gave this country their service and they earned the right to voice their opinion on this issue. who knows the facts better than those who served?

as a recipient of several medals and other awards, they are meaningless. what matters is the truth, which drove me from the service anyways.

The truth is that it don't mean nothin'.

Gee Winthrop, I served 22 years, and "the truth" and I enjoyed every minute of it... or maybe "the truth" never revealed itself to me, and I just plain missed it. Why don't you share "the truth" with me now; who knows, maybe it'll make me give back my medals after all these years!

you enjoyed the "truth"? if you enjoyed every minute of it, i take it you havent served in combat. If you enjoyed that then you have a screw loose.

You want the truth, here you go:

the whole financial system is based on the idea of infinite supplies of energy, which isn't the case. There are multiple documentations verifying that oil, the most energy dense resource in the world, has peaked and supply is decreasing. This will effectively change our society 180 degrees over the next 30-50 years.

War is a racket, being a amalgamation of banking and defense industry interests. USMC General Smedley Butler refuted the "war is not for profit" bull@!$%# nearly 100 years ago.

9/11 was not orchestrated by the taliban. The government had every interest in 9/11 occurring because it could justify a gargantuan defense budget and military adventures into central asia. to understand this better, i suggest you read a book called "The Grand Chessboard" by Bigniew Brezezinski. Think of it as a modernized version of Mein Kampf

The compilation of the evidence can be found on fromthewilderness.com

anyways. yes you did miss it.

Sarg is right. Most service medals are pretty meaningless. Now the ones higher up the chart do mean something, but most medals are awarded just for being there, not for any acts of bravery, etc. The article doesn't say what medals the vets returned.

When a sheep is indoctrinated by the US military the only truth they can see is the one they are taught to see.

not radical

bet you never served so you get your info from what TV. You may not be a radical but you are a joke.

Cindy, are you thick or what? Do you think Pat Tillman joined so he wouldn't have to follow orders? Try using that big sponge between your ears for a minute. Almost all who join the military do so because they love their country and want to serve. What they don't love is being lied to and deceived and manipulated. Pat Tillman turned down a million dollar contract because he wanted to serve his country when it was attacked. For his service, he was lied to and eventually killed by his own superiors incompetence and even after his death, the Army and DOD (bushco) continued to lie about how he died and tried to make him a hero dying in a ferocious firefight who believed in what they were doing, none of which is true. His own generals betrayed him. If you talk to military men you will hear them say much the same as was said in "BlackHawk Down": "It's about the man next to you. These men have been betrayed by the MFs who signed them up and used them to the bone. The vets are not ashamed of their country or their fellow vets. They are ashamed of our leadership and that they allowed themselves to be used. The SOB general who politicized Tillman's death was promoted by bush for figuring out how to turn his embarrassing death into a recruiting tool. The MFs owed his family the truth.

Sir Winthrop,

You lost all credibility with your conspiracy theory's. No way did our government plan or allow 9/11. I do not believe that anyone on either side (dem or rep) would want distruction of our country for their polital gain, that is just dumb. BTW I served as well in the military, during the gulf war. I met my closest friends I have now while in. I would do it all again. My only regret is that I couldn't stay in. I was medically discharged. It angers me when I see anyone badmouthing our military. It is upsetting to see people that have served give back their medals because they do not understand why they served.

Thomas Blue, being someone whom obviously never served you know not what you are talking about. You are obviously a left winger whom doesn't much care for the military anyway so your opinion (while is free to give) is meaningless. Have a nice day.

Maybe he can give the medals to Romney, word is that Mitt's campaign needs a boost.

Next thing you will see is 3000 marching down Pennslyvania Ave. Kinda of deja vu for me. 1968 police riot in Chicago at Democratic convention followed by a large march in front of the White House.

War is the tool of the weak-minded. Destroying another nation and its people for profit isn't just anti-freedom and anti-American. it's anti-God and anti-christian. These brave and peaceful people tossing their medals at the NATO summit are the TRUE heros of freedom and justice.

@Scott

I'm a "liberal" combat vet, but you don't have to be one to say what you want. Winthrop and T. Blue have points. Debate the points. You trying to ridicule them is unamerican. Pipe down.

Scott, No I didn't serve. My son did. Most of my nephews. My dad, all my uncles. I have much respect fopr the military but I have no respect for any leader who betrays his men. That general did just that. Liberal? Maybe, maybe not. I don't care what I'm called. I love my son and his buddies. I love the grunts who put their life on the line and it's bad joke how they're treated by the VA after their release. We owe them. But many high up in the DOD and the WH seem to forget that.

Thanks Fianchetto. Thanks also for your service and Scott's. It pisses me off to see our soldiers disrespected. My son spent 2 tours in Iraq- infantry, Indian Company, 3-3. They deserve better. Thomas suffers every day from his time in Iraq. Most of his buddies do too.

We need to GTFO of Afghanistan. The Taliban are protected in Pakistan and we will never win.

9/11 : Osama executor not a commisioner , i m afraid .

most were afraid of Chicago cops and a heat + 97F .

No, Thomas Blue; Pat Tillman Had IT ALL But he wanted More: A War hero returning to the grid iron. Life does NOT work that way. You get what you get and play the cards dealt to you...Pat Tillman was Not Drafted, he volunteered into a dangerous game played by 4 star clowns who would give the whole show away if necessary. Pat Tillman did NOT Know that, if he did, he probably wouldn't have JOINED Up.

For those who DON'T KNOW what is going on behind the curtain at the White House, they need to do their homework. There are MANY EDUCATIONAL VIDEOS on YOU TUBE that planted a very logical scenario as to why ALL WARS MAKE MONEY.. and if the truth be known. The United States, are the MEGA-MONEY WAR MACHINE OF THE WORLD... but look out America.. China is coming up on your hind-legs, in military, monetary, and educated.. and VERY STRONG..as far as MORALS, and very intune.. WITH WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS DOING "THROWING US UNDER THE BUS, IN THIS WORLD".. The women and men, who STAND FOR WHAT IS RIGHT, AND TRUE, are the ones WE SHOULD HONOR AND SALUTE. FOR THOSE WHO CHOSE TO DISGRACE THE THIS COUNTRY WITH SADISTIC, AND HATRED DEEDS AGAINST INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS. Other countries all over the world KNOW THAT OUR GOVERNMENT TREATS US LIKE @!$%#!! and some of them are laughing at us, and some are feeling sorry for us, and some of those countries, KNOW THAT it is possible that we have asked for what we deserve for being greedy, liars, and cheaters, and lazy..and myself included. Our televisions, cell phones, computers, etc. desensitize OUR MINDS, TO THE POINT THAT we ignore the tell-tale signs and we are NOT INFORMED THE TRUTH, if any truth from the media, and the local news. Do the best you can, to RESEARCH FOR THE TRUTH, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH, IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH... THEN YOU HAVE ONLY YOURSELF TO BLAME, WITH ((((ALL))) THAT IS OUT THERE..ON THE INTERNET, INSTEAD OF MAKING THE YOUNG BLOOD OWNER OF FACEBOOK, POCKET MONEY TO FILL HIS BANK ACCOUNT. *THINK FOR YOURSELF* PEOPLE.. LET'S STOP BEING SLAVES...!!

Sir Winthrop,

You lost all credibility with your conspiracy theory's.

What is conspiracy theory? I deal with conspiracy fact. Before you embark upon your "conspiracy theorist" crusade, read the book "Crossing the Rubicon" and get back to me. I can only point you in the direction so many times, you have to do the homework yourself.

No way did our government plan or allow 9/11. I do not believe that anyone on either side (dem or rep) would want distruction of our country for their polital gain, that is just dumb.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZNvSX3A7pc

here's the tip of the iceberg. There's no way? LOL sure...prove it or shut up.

BTW I served as well in the military, during the gulf war. I met my closest friends I have now while in. I would do it all again. My only regret is that I couldn't stay in. I was medically discharged. It angers me when I see anyone badmouthing our military. It is upsetting to see people that have served give back their medals because they do not understand why they served.

You are mistaking the badmouthing of the military, government, and banking system with badmouthing veterans, which i am not doing. Like many soldiers before and with me, I naively believed for so long I was serving my country and found out that things were not the way they seemed. Reality rears its ugly head like that. General Smedley Butler, USMC, also learned of this apparent reality so colorfully described in detail by the book "War is a Racket".

Those veterans that gave back their medals knew exactly why they served. I knew why I served. To secure the dreams of imperialists vying to control the Eurasian continent for the world's last recoverable reserves of dwindling petroleum and natural gas supplies. These are facts that are irrefutable. But I suppose its just easier to wrap ones self in the flag, singing jingo songs, clinging to the anachronistic belief in the mythical unlimited growth paradigm.

Thomas Blue, being someone whom obviously never served you know not what you are talking about. You are obviously a left winger whom doesn't much care for the military anyway so your opinion (while is free to give) is meaningless. Have a nice day.

Ohhhh, here we go. Left, right, it doesn't matter. were all in this mess together. The ideological division in this country is the very reason why this mess will be, well, messy and bloody in the near future. God forbid we cut the bull@!$%# and recognize we have a huge @!$%#ing problem.

Thomas, you are absolutely correct on Pat Tillman. Like him, I believed naively that I was committing a great deed for my country by taking up arms in its defense in uniform. What I found out was the ugly truth, and he paid the ultimate price for it. There is extensive documentation about Pat Tillman from the site Fromthewilderness.com, which uncovered the enemy fire myth and was instrumental to Rumsfeld losing his job.

holy @!$%#. god forbid you stop listening to the main stream media and government long enough to do some credible research.

2000 people. Not as big as the news article is making it out to be.

These veterans act like they didn't volunteer for the service during a time of war, they act like they accidentally ended up in these countries.

I know, there are the few exceptions that were already in when the war started. But a majority of the veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan signed up during the conflict, knowing full well that they'd likely end up in these countries.

This MSNBC headline attracted me to this article;

US veterans return metals at NATO summit

"Metals"?

Really?

Way to write MSNBC. Pathetic.

Wait! I KNOW! Let's give the writer a metal! A lead one.

As the dumbing-down continues....

John doe,

people wake up sooner or later. Mine was after six tours in those damned countries. awakening doesn't precede enlisting in the armed forces. That is stupid and illogical.

They earned medals for what? A country that doesn't care about anything but money?

I am not surprised since my kids were kidnapped by cps for nothing but money. Politicians lie constantly everywhere. Anything happens in this country and if you fail to see it I feel that you are uninformed and duped by the scum that get elected with the interest to get more cash to rob from the American People. You elect the very scum that get into office!

They dumped Military Persons in a landfill. That's how much this country really cares for you.

Get off the glue!

What a shame-4044782

Get off the glue!

Congratulations for the stupidest comment on the board. You have nothing to add so you insult people having a debate with a stupid comment.

Anyone interested in what the war profits are being used for??? To buy an election and take over the country so they can start another war for more profit. Let's all join in choir and sing the "Bomb bomb bomb Iran" song.

Just look at the money being poured into the super pacs from anonymous donors. They aren't pouring that money in without expecting a return on their investment. Wise up people.

Sir Winthrop,

I'm sorry, but you ARE a conspiracy theorist. 9/11 was NOT a government inside job. Trying to "prove" otherwise is as laughably absurd as it is factually untrue. To try and claim "the government did it" is to ignore basic logic.

And no, I don't have to prove the government didn't do it because you can never prove that they did. Give me a break. Ignorance must be bliss for people like you.

You see cupcake, unlike you and the so-called "experts" that the 9/11 conspiracy theorists like to trot out, I KNOW what it takes to set up an operation like this and I KNOW how impossible it would be for the government to plan it, execute it and most importantly HIDE IT.

And by the way...trying to use a YouTube video clip as "proof" does NOT help your credibility. I could post a YouTube video that "proves" aliens are here on Earth...but that wouldn't mean it's real. Same thing with some guy's book (And yes, I've actually read Crossing the Rubicon and the author wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground)

As for these soldiers throwing their medals on the ground, personally I think it is little more than an emotionally driven action that is a slap in the face to their immediate superiors. You know, the people who thought they deserved the medal and put them in for it. If I thought a soldier deserved a medal for their actions, I would be thoroughly disgusted with them if they turned around and threw it in the street.

While I respect their right to do so...I cannot and will not admire them for it.

They want to hate the government? Fine, I don't exactly have much use for them either...and that means both parties. However, when people allow that hatred to blind them to other facts and points of view...well it only makes them look like fools in the end.

And unfortunately, the world is full of fools.

The most effective place to voice protest is in the voting booth.

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012

"sir?" Winthrop::: You get your information off YouTube? That is for entertainment, not information.

The Wizard of Wisdom

I'm sorry, but you ARE a conspiracy theorist. 9/11 was NOT a government inside job. Trying to "prove" otherwise is as laughably absurd as it is factually untrue. To try and claim "the government did it" is to ignore basic logic.

Pearl Harbor was not an inside job but history now says that it was avoidable and the US kinda let it happen as an excuse to go to war. They just didn't think it would be that bad.

Who are you to say that 9/11 did not fall into the same category. I believe they knew that an attack was imminent on 9/11 and allowed it to happen as an excuse to go to war. If they didn't know after the PDB August 2001 then they truly are the dumbest people to ever hold the office. They too could have not believed that it would be as bad as it turned out to be. Maybe in a hundred years the files will be unsealed for the truth to be told. That is if the country survives that long.

Anyone that does not believe that G W Bush and his administration had an agenda to attack Iraq are as Woodard would say...is in a state of denial especially since it's a fact that Rumsfeld wanted to attack Iraq on Sept.12, 2001 but was dissuaded by Colon Powell. Hell, they attacked Afghanistan without any proof that Osama bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11 and even with him dead they still don't have any evidence he was responsible for 9/11. Don't believe it?? Google "obl not wanted for 9/11 attack" and take your pick. OBL also denied responsibility for the 9/11 attack which is believable since he owned up to the other attacks he was responsible for doing. So if the 9/11 attack wasn't OBL then who did it? Certainly not Iraq. So again, why did we go to war with these countries? Oil?? War profits?

After “retiring” an American flag they carried through the streets and giving it to a woman whose soldier son committed suicide, they began hurtling their war service medals into the air -- a rare form of protest that was last done on a large scale by 900 Vietnam veterans in 1971.

Hurtling? I heard there were dozens of "veterans" "hurtling" their medals into the air. Not much of a protest if you think about it. Over 2 million service members have deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. 24 or so "vets" protested. I think you'd find a far larger percentage of nutters in the general population than you see representing the military at this so-called protest. How many showed up, 2000? Kids these days.

Hundreds of thousands of our brave young people served in these wars. Thousands died. I don't blame any of them for being angry that defeat has been snatched from the jaws of victory by our current administration, but what a few (dozens if not exagerated) do cannot be allowed to reflect on our troops, the best in the world. Since the entire occupy thing was supported and encouraged by the Obama administration and the Unions, I have to suspect that this is all a set up for some plan Obama is hatching to keep himself in power.

And Larry, it is sad how mixed up some people are.

I'm not only proud of every award I received in two branches of service, but I have a serious issue with "anti-war" protestors who attack police lines (hint: once you start attacking police lines, you aren't "protesting", you're rioting) !!

The Wizard of Wisdom

Good post and I would add, given the constant "leaks" not even classified information seems contained in this government, much less any plan large enough to cause 9-11. It is indeed worrisome that some people actually believe this stuff. I do think the Narwhal Room of Obama is behind not only a lot of these posts but also the things occupy does. It has been proven that they spent the entire Obama presidency collecting every bit of data on Americans from every source they have access to in order to determine who would want to hear what. I'm sure that included what demonstrations would be most effective. Their problem is that they have gone so far off the cliff that we don't believe anything coming from them now.

OK, so these soldiers threw their medals in the street in protest. Fine...the medals were theirs, so they can do what they want with them. They've now received their 15 minutes of fame and can now fade back into anonymity. Simply put: they volunteered for their service. Whatever their reasons for volunteering may have been (pride in country, college tuition, family tradition, etc), they had to know that, by enlisting then they did, they would be called into active duty in a war zone, a war zone where the enemy fights without a uniform and blends in with civilians, which means that there would be situations where innocents were killed or wounded. That's war. If they didn't want to be a part of it, they shouldn't have enlisted. If they're so ashamed of their service, then they should now take the next step and relinquish whatever Vet benefits they have coming to them.

the one and only,

I wouldn't hold my breath with this legislature having representatives who listen to anything but lobbyists and PACs. They seem to be "representatives for hire" more then anything close to the real thing. Decades ago perhaps, some actually saw themselves as civil servants for their constituents as a whole. These days, constituent is reserved for the biggest corporate donor (in the name of corporate personhood), and those lobbying firms who can throw the most money at their campaigns. I wouldn't hold my breath on the members of this legislature leaving their bi-partisan bickering long enough, to listen to anyone who doesn't come bearing a big fat checkbook....

Hookay Wizard of Wizdumb, Explain how the towers droped in free fall, meaning without any resistence. If you look at official explanation the buidings didn't even fall the way discribed, it just all came down at once. The buildings fell in on themselves on their own foot print similar to a planned demonlition. Why there is no debre out side the pentagon just a circular hole where the plane supposidly hit, the hole should have been widder since planes have wings, and if only the front part entered the pentagon then the rest of it would have to dematerialized since there is no sizable debre. Building 8 exploded and fell in on it's self at the same time and much like the towers and no plane hit it, people were inside and killed. The government says it's not related, did not include it in the 911 report and will not talk about it. They dont' have to hide it, they can do it right infront of our faces and the people buy their story. All they have to do is make up whatever they wantand undermine anyone who speaks against them and lable them crazy or unpatriotic. People telling you these things are not crazy the system is crazy.

What the government had to gain? We completely backed a war with Iraq which we know now was never a threat, and had nothing to do with 911, or Osama. Corporations made money off of the stolen resources and contractors paid by us to rebuild what we just blew apart. The government was able to convince people they weren't safe and passed the Patriot act which has lead to several other cival liberty killing legeslations like the NDAA which is very vague in what the definition of a terrorist is so basically anyone who disaggrees with the government is a terrorist including the 99% protestors.With the NDAA you can be DETAINED INDEFINENTLY WITHOUT TRIAL.The president can now order assasinations on american citizens.The president has power to seize resources in a time of war and now in peace. Police can write their own warrants without going to a nuetral Judge. These are just a few examples but basically the government is seizing complete control over us thanks to this initial attack and the ensuing war on terror that cannot be won because there is no clear goal. Killed Osama, not even in Iraq, and it's still not over. We are now told we should attack Iran because they might use the Nuclear Isotope we gave them to threaten Isreal that has a ton of Nuclear weapons of their own. So Romney wants to go back to Iraq and is mostly vague on why Obama is a terrible president, he's not saying he'll actually repeal anything. Obama signed in the NDAA that was presented by John McCain. Republicans and democrates are all the same they are puppets. By all means look up everything I pointed out here and vote RON PAUL 2012!

Just MHO but I can not tell you what a pi$$ poor act, I believe these pi$$ poor ex-soldiers did by throwing their medals in. Just like the pi$$ poor soldiers back in 1968 did during Viet-Nam, my War. Someone said in another post that it made congress, 'stand up and take notice', notice of what, you mental midget. The Viet-Nam war lasted until Mar. 1973! I'm a two tour Combat Veteran.

kaybee: Just curious, if you are one of these vets, who do you vote for? It couldn't be Obama because he's expanded the wars and didn't keep his promise to get us out.

I sure wish they'd stop with these ridiculous and purposely misleading headlines. These vets didn't "return" these medals. They can throw them away or give them away or whatever, but they aren't "returned." I also suggest that these vets, who I am grateful for their service to the US, might want to do more than protest and apologize for their actions. If they are truly sorry for what they did in Iraq and Afghanistan, then I think they should go back over there and do what they can to make amends. Imagine the good they could do as they work to make their situation better. I'm sure they would appreciate it much more than just idle words of apologies.

Some of these vets will always feel as they do now, but many will also look back on the day they threw their medals away as having been foolish. Life is a journey. All these men and women signed up. Many signed up to get a wage they couldn't get elsewhere and benefits and the opportunity to later get a college degree. So in many cases it was a business decision. Some went into the service to find their way in life. Many parents encourage military life to get control of kids that are floundering. Many join to find other "brothers" and feel a sense of belonging. There are a host of reasons and there will always be some that regret their decision as these men feel now.

I have known a fair number of people that served in the military. I don't know anybody throwing medals, but I do know some that found the solutions lacking. I think we all could agree on that.

IMO, the use of NATO during the Libya civil war was way over the top. I am usually a hawk, but to actually target a leader and those supporting him and kill them and in doing so destroy cities etc. seems long-term a very senseless decision. If the Libyans wanted their leader gone they needed to take care of it themselves. Using aircraft to blow up people and infrastructure just to create a regime change was wrong IMO. We already did that in Iraq against a much more equipped military and against a regime that had in the past used WMD on their own people. We should now know that creating democracies is extremely difficult and so far largely unsuccessful. We should not be nation building. We tried, and it has bankrupted us and so time to accept our limitations. It cost billions to help the Libyans, but meanwhile cities like Detroit are dying. What about helping ourselves first?

It's great that there are still people brave enough in the US to challenge the people who control our government but they are going against the wrong target. NATO is just a puppet, just like the US, of the people who want all these wars. If there were leadership in the groups that are protesting, they would be attacking the things that give our enemies the power to control our government. While the rich can buy and control politicians nothing will change.

I've never earned a medal for anything in my entire life. Which is why, those in the military who do, make me so much more aware of my sense of honor for my country. A person who serves in a manner deserving of a medal is an American from their soul. Only real idiots would bash military medal of honor recipients. It may not mean as much to the recipient, but what about their families who lived in absolute terror until their child was returned home safe and sound?

What the hell has gone wrong with some people in this country that now even military people are attacked? Asses out of joint these days because they can't have their way. Get a life and soon. Or you'll all be on the outside looking in.

my kids were kidnapped by cps for nothing but money

Are you kidding me? You either didn't pay your child support, so your x has your kids or you are a horrible father.... CPS does not take your kids away for no reason!!!!

Everyone of these gentleman were volunteers. Did they think that they would not have to serve in combat. What idiots they must be, did they not know that they would have to serve at the countries demand. The sole purpose of the military is to fight and protect this country in whatever way possible. By now returning there medals they are showing , not only disrepect to their own service , but disrepect the their country.

Larry,

Your correlation of Pearl harbor and 9/11 is wrong. Though an act, any act, is proved to be preventable in hindsight, does not mean it was purposefully allowed to occur to achieve an end. Yes we had indications that Japan may attack the US interests in the Pacific, but intelligence then was far more primitive than it is now. We also had indications that Al Qaeda was planning something, but the connections were not made in time to act, to prevent it from happening.

sir winthrop,

I agree that you are a conspiracy theorist. The amount of people alone that would need to be in on a plan like 9/11 to make it happen and point the finger elsewhere has always been the fatal flaw of conspiracy theory. Blowing up a building after hours when it is empty might be able to be silenced, running two aircraft full of people into two buildings full of workers is quite different. Someone would have talked. Whether they were bragging about the great caper they engineered or full of remorse at the deaths of innocent victims, someone would have talked, especially by now.

Unlike the two of you, I saw the necessity for the wars, I also saw President Bush give both countries, Afghanistan and Iraq, opportunities to prevent the bloodshed and devastation that comes with armed conflict. Both countries reject offers of peaceful settlement, so like so many other conflicts, it was not a one sided affair. As for the length of time each has taken to unfold, I say this; In many previous conflicts we have taken action and then left the vanquished to wallow in the bile of being beaten, in many cases without the innocent citizens even knowing why their country was destroyed. In Iraq and Afghanistan we tried something different, we tried leaving the country able to stand on it's own and defend itself. We tried leaving the country in at least a better situation than when we came. Whether that strategy works or not is up to the future leaders of these countries and will not be known for years. Personally I think it is better than the kill em all and let god sort em out strategies from the past or that many who wish to strike in anger or revenge seem to profess.

Yes there are those who profit from war. They are a very small minority, but even those people don't revel in bloodshed. I do not believe that any country is ever driven to war by a balance sheet. The reasons are always more than dollars and cents. Those on the outside only see what they wish to see, and I do not separate myself from that group, but even when it is motivated by strategic interests or logistical necessity, there is always another underlying reason.

These soldiers who protested by throwing away medals that had lost any meaning to them were voicing their displeasure for personal reasons. That is their right, which I assume some have actually paid for with their own blood. We should consider their arguments and allow them to be heard. What I don't agree with is behavior that is unbecoming any human being, especially of those who claim to be arguing against conflict, than evoking violence in their wake.

just a little history lesson for those that think that 911 wasnt allowed to happen or wasnt an inside job.

ww1,,the american people wanted nothing to do with the war, and didnt want to get involved.then the sinking of the lusitania happened and the american people DEMANDED that we go to war.the american government knew EXACTLY what was going to happen and ALLOWED it to happen so that we could be pushed into a war that would make massive proffits to but a few.

ww2,,agian the american people wanted NOTHING to do with the conflict over seas. then pearl harbor happened, and the american people DEMANDED that we go to war.again the american government had the knowladge before hand and choose to do nothing because they knew that it would be the perfect excuse to make sure that we would have to enter the war,,agian making massive profits to the few.

this happened again in vietnam.

and then there was 911.

i honestly cannot understand how people cannot see or at least suspect that the information was manipulated by our government but you can easly see the end result was a further occupation of another country. i say this because what we are doing in afganastan IS NOT a war..a declaration of war was never made by the united states government (the president AND congress)

to me people that believe that some guy living in a cave on the other side of the world with very limited technology could pull off something like 911,,reminds me of how the american people were so easily convinced that a MAGIC bullit killed JFK.

look at how many people would loose so much money if there was no war to fight,,follow the money and the politicl ites and the ones that not only gain massive wealth but also great power and you will find SOME of the answers.

the american people need to understand that the government is corrupt and cares nothing about the welfare of the american people..and untill we stand together as one unifide force agianst them nothing will ever change.,we all need to forget the notion of republicans agianst democrats or independants.

they are all just different sides of the same coin,,and they will all manipulate the american people to their own ends.

they realy on us fighting each other over trival things in order for them to keep control and use us as their slaves to meet their own ends...so untill we can all learn to stand together as one with one single purpose then we make our own doom

The two most insidious forms of stupidity infecting the airwaves and the internet are birthers and 9/11 truthers.

Here's the "inconvenient truth" the " the U.S. and Western civilization governments are controlled by the banksters / Bilderbergers / Trillateral commission, etc.,etc." drones of conspiracy theory profit factories like Infowars always conveniently ignore. The attacks that destroyed the Twin Towers on September 11th, 2001 were the SECOND on the complex, not the first.

Just like a car repaired after a serious collision may not act as the engineers that designed it intended if it is involved in a second serious collision, a multiple building complex whose base was blasted with 1500 lbs. of explosives is almost certain to not perform as the engineers that designed it intended if TWO JETLINERS slam into its' towers at 500+ mph eight and a half years later !!

J J,

You obviously have no idea how medals are awarded or earned (not necessarily one and the same). Campaign medals, service medals and bronze stars without the "V" can be awarded for being in the right place at the right time. Bronze stars with the "V" and above are awarded for valor, most often in combat against an armed enemy. In neither case are they awarded for killing unarmed people. But you probably already knew that and just prefer sniping (trolling) from a distance to engaging up close and personal.

"It's not the things you don't know that make you ignorant. It's the things you do know that just ain't so." ---Mark Twain

John..saw you on another post with some BS post also. Tell me . ......do they award medals in the ghettos for all the murders there?? Also, if you did not serve in the US Military , STFU.

Obviously you know nothing about war, only what you see on x-box. Whether civilians or enemy soldiers get killed remember, war is hell.

No SH** ?? Been there personally have you?? Many of us have.

Idiot

As I mentioned in another news article, I always agreed that Iraq was a waste of life and resources, a Bush venture under the guise of WOMD but for oil interests. Afghanistan, on the other hand, was perhaps justifiable since this was the hiding nest of a group, who's leader is now dead, that caused death, destruction and havoc to the American nation, and indirectly, to the world as a whole. Returning a war medal, perhaps it should have been done during the Iraq conflict. Now it's too little too late.

Iraqi nor afghanistan was justifiable. We could have easily put up 1-2 basis in afghanistan and bombed the cr ap out of them every day via drones or aircraft. These were 19 hijackers with a few drug addicts backing them. Our press made it out to be a global war. It started this giant war machine that no-one wants to shut down because its making too much money. Love the blood money! They love getting paid by the limb and the mayhem. No different than the roman empire on its way down. ..Writing checks that no one cash. And yes, I am a conservative and anti war. Its called being 16 trillion in debt on your way to 25 and eventually watching one day where no one wants to by your bonds unless they are 6% or more. The us has the top 15-20 militaries of the world combined. WHo is paying for it? I certainly don't want to give uncle sam a dime. Eventually, it will be come like italy where 25% of GDP is off the books.

Tho shalt not kill...

You obvisously didn't win any spelling bee medals either Lib boy.

john julius let me make myself PERFECTLY CLEAR GO @!$%# YOURSELF

@John julius

Go ahead and say that over the internet because i guarantee you aint man enough to say it to a combat veterans face. Your just a internet @#$% talker, no courage, no honor, no respect, coward of every degree. the world would be better off if some thugs were to curb stomp you out infront of your house.

I bet 90% of them were POGs

I disagree that these aren't real medals and that these vets haven't served. There's the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal that separates recent vets from Reagan-era vets, for example. These days, even cooks and other REMFs take risks beyond those of American civilians. Ask anyone at Ft. Bliss. All vets deserve to be recognised, whether support or infantry.

I won't be returning any of my medals, and am extra proud of that blue braid that now hangs from my rear view mirror. But, I respect today's REMFs and, like you, their freedom of expression.

Welcome to Newsvine Tom. You might want to re-read that code of honor to which you agreed.

All you idiots talking about unjustified wars...hindsight is 20/20 and raving about it just shows your stupidity. No one knew the truth about anything after 9/11, what would Obama's policy have been on terrorism? No one knows but we could not do NOTHING, this was a unique situation that happened on our soil...remember?

Tom Frederick the POG comment is because there really is a difference in jobs over seas I honor all my brothers and sisters who serve with Honor no matter what job they did in the service. I am how ever sick of seeing these whiners on TV talking about how bad it was when they were warehouse clerks that never left the wire. There is a lot of BS floating around these days. People at home should ask why is it that there are more soldiers(and I use that term loosely) from admin jobs that never left the wire with PTSD then Infantrymen. I have heard one to many "War stories" at the bar from finance clerks to take these chuckle heads seriously

@ justredd64

Keywords in your statement ". . .happened on our soil...remember?"

I remember.

When we could have improved airline and port security, when we could have reduced or eliminated our dependence on foreign oil, when we could have reduced or eliminated greenhouse gas emissions, when we could have improved internet security, when we could have created half a billion jobs, when we could have re-built our entire road and bridge network, when we could have built bullet trains between every major U.S. city, when we could have gone to the moon and built a base and gone on to Mars, when we could have. . .

Instead, we interjected ourselves into the civil war in Afghanistan, created a new war in Iraq, and spent two trillion dollars, 6,000 lives, and 40,000 permenantly wounded in those places for nothing.

What was it Bush said on September 27th (~two weeks after 9/11)? Bush said, "Get on board. Do your business around the country. Fly and enjoy America's great destination spots. Get down to Disney World in Florida. Take your families and enjoy life, the way we want it to be enjoyed."

No sacrifice. No stake in the war for the public. Not even some taxes to pay for the wars. Just travel advice.

We could have changed everything for the better, as you say, on our soil.

We chose not to.

We chose wrong.

Imagine. John had it right and we need to remember that the foolishness we call war is just to allow parasites to suck.

Remember what this was all about - getting AQ - WMDs - regime change - building democracy - what a lot of horse crap. If you are a self called "patriot" then you just go ahead and enjoy your little snacks.

The nation building is pure BS (with money in mind) We started the entire thing after ww2 and cant get out of it. When attacked we should respond in kind and get out. The worst thing ever is the term "limited engagement). Play high stake whackamole and let them rebuild them selves.

Thanks Proud, I don't even know why this "protest" is even news. As far as the vets, yeah, they are probably guys who were pissed off all the time when they were in. Whatever.

Oh, these days the cooks and remfs are civilians. All that @!$%# is sub-contracted out. As far as PTSD- it is almost an option you can check off a list and you automatically get classified- just tell the "docs" you think you have it.

Are we trying to win the minds and hearts of our enemies with guns and bombs again? Didn't work last time.

I was an active duty MARINE for 8yrs.I have recieved 2 good conduct awards 3sea service deplyment ribbons and 2 combat action ribbons among other awards.Iam very proud of my service to this country,and would never consider doing what these individuals are doing.And if I could make an educated guess I would almost guarantee that the majority of these clowns were not honorarbly discharged. And they are using this form of protest just as a way to to "get even"or" grind thier axes".They have no honor.

'

str8jkt82

First things first. Thank you for your service and I know many service men like yourself who are proud of their military service.

Now for the second part. To think that everyone believes like yourself is shallow. The war is a very big organization and everyone are not subjected to the same situation. To disrespect your fellow servicemen by typecasting them with dishonor only shows me that you are not torrent of anyone that has a different opinion than yours. Not a good thing and could lead to problems in the future. have a good day.

I received two medals besides my ribbons they are still neatly wrapped and have never seen daylight neither has my uniform-I will not wear it in public. I also got some padded like recogion folders with nixons copied signature. They did to give out ribbons with the madals. People like chis must not have ever been in the army,at least the veitnam I was in.

I am not a verteran so at some level I am certainly not qualified to say. However, I have lost family members to war. I don't understand this statement:

May they be able to forgive us for what we have done to them, may we begin to heal and may we live in peace from here till eternity,” he said.

Really??? When exactly have we EVER been at peace with the middle east? They were making suicide attempts on our embassys and bases long, long before they ever decided to kill thousands of innocent civilians. When you did that, you changed the game!!! Sounds like we have a bunch of kids on the college program that had to go to war.........!! I don't remember. Were these people drafted???

Oh, don't you see? If we're nice to the crazy, radicals who absolutely hate the Western Civilization with all their being.....well, if you're nice and say please and thank you, they'll love us and not try to kill everyone and everything American!!! Gosh, what's not to understand???!?!?!?!??!?!?!?

The National Defense Service Medal, the Vietnam Campaign Medal and the Vietnamese Service Medal were given to all who left country, if not with your orders, then at the airport when you left Vietnam. Everybody who served in-country left with at lease three medals. Some more, none less. If the Army has stopped issuing medals the troops earned they are getting pretty chincy. Veterans, Thank You for Your Service and Welcome Home. One more thing, you are entitled to one free re-issue of your medals after you leave the service. So if you change your minds contact the DOD. Peace.

Observations.

1.) Some of the protestors have been arrested for making bombs, planning voilence, and the media mentions it like no big thing. Imagine if a Tea Party protest ended up like this, how would those in the media portray that?

2.) You have every right to protest and throw your medals away if you want, fine with me. But Iraq has no more Saddam and has many elections, do they have problems and a long way to go? Absolutly. Was it worth it? Maybe not, but maybe the next 100 years of elections and liberty in Iraq who no longer is a threat to America was worth it, only time will tell. Afghanistan was being ran by the Taliban, a group that murders anyone against them, beats and oppresses women, and sold drugs for their main source of income. Again we can argue if the price we paid was to high and we ccan argue on the what our goals should of been and what they should be now, but I think we did do some good getting rid of the Taliban and Saddam.

3.) I like specifics, what exactly are the concerns that they are protesting, and what exactly was their role in the war. Not to belittle anyone's service, but I would listen very carefully to the concerns of a man on the front line compared to a desk jockey in the states. Are they against the wars, or the way the wars are being fought? Were they ever for the fight? And if yes what made them change their mind? The simple beating of an anti war drum isn't enough for me, I want details, I want everything put out on the table, grievances, agendas, ect...

4.) Voilence and distruction of property should be CONDEMEND by all no matter what the cause. Protest all you want, but do not do it in this manner.

Our government has been sending our young men and women over seas to fight wars (that were mostly started by lying to the public) for decades now.

Good for these soldiers to finally stand up for themselves and all the innocent people our government has killed, injured, and starved over the years. Now it's time for the rest of the population to wake up. Judging from these comments, we still have a long way to go!

Good for these soldiers to finally stand up for themselves and all the innocent people our government has killed, injured, and starved over the years.

Hey BB-2858666,

Do you just worry about the "innocent people" killed by us, or all innocent people? Iraq had hundreds of Mass Graves filled with "innocent people". The Kurds watched as Saddam gased thousands of "innocent people" to death. What about these innocent people? What about the innocent people being killed in Syria right now by a Tyrannt government? What about the innocent people in China being arrested and tortured? What about the innocent women being beaten and killed in the middle east? I would have more respect for these people if they were concerned with all "innocent" suffering, not just that of one group that helps push their adgenda.

We have an all volunteer military now, so these clowns have no one to blame except for themselves for being involved. This Vietnam vet, originally drafted into the Army, would never think of using his service medals in protest. What exactly is their point? Hoping to get a few pats on the back from those that would never volunteer to serve their country and thought anybody that did volunteer was stupid?

Exactly what I feel! These people weren't drafted, they joined. Many of them after 9/11 - it's a bit late to rethink your position, especially if they're using their GI bill benefits. Throwing your medals is a childish way to protest and it denigrates the service of those who served with you. Lanikai Ron, thank you for your service & sacrifice - may you have a blessed Memorial Day.

logic required:

These soldiers were duped into fighting these wars. Now that we actually have a free press (the internet) people are learning the truth about these wars and regretting their part in them.

Yes, I am concerned for the innocents everywhere, but our country has a lot of blood on its hands. And please give me a break, the United States can't fight against all the injustices of the world. Lets start with our own injustices. Also, you have to admit that there is an ulterior motives for being in the middle east. Why didn't we stop Rwanda?

Major General Smedley Butler (USMC) fought in WWI, Haiti, Nicaruaga, Mexico and Cuba in the early part of the 1900's. He recieved the Congressional Medal of Honour twice as well as many other decorations.

Here is a speech he gave to the American Legion convention in 1933:

"....War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag. I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket. There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism. It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

the reason there is allies is to protect our nation in all aggression and to help some other nation to protect there rights. if the USA wont help other nation the possibility will be there are many war would happen and many colonization will occur and possibly the fall of USA. Just think of China where they are so aggressive in colonizing all ASIAN country India, The Philippines, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia and all other ASIAN country for them to get all the natural resources, If this would happen and USA is not helping and other country do you think USA could stand alone??? Try to think about it and ask yourself is protesting help me and my country?? Think the positive and the negative of your act before its too late.. Thank you...

the reason there is allies is to protect our nation in all aggression and to help some other nation to protect there rights. if the USA wont help other nation the possibility will be there are many war would happen and many colonization will occur and possibly the fall of USA. Just think of China where they are so aggressive in colonizing all ASIAN country India, The Philippines, Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia and all other ASIAN country for them to get all the natural resources, If this would happen and USA is not helping and other country do you think USA could stand alone??? Try to think about it and ask yourself is protesting help me and my country?? Think the positive and the negative of your act before its too late.. Thank you...

Old Gimlet eye was a good Marine but he was a Quaker and as such it's not a great surprise what his views on war were. However, the geopolitics of the times were much less complicated so i really don't see how his views in the 30's apply to todays dynamic.

One thing i can promise you. He would have been the first one in line to go after the people involved in in 911. Take it to the bank.

Jon-998022. Major General Smedley Butler may have been a Quaker, but that does not automatically invalidate his statements as they are based on reason and not faith.

What Smedley Butler said has been echoed by every honest man through the whole 20th century. Eisenhower (another military man) warned us about the dangers posed by the military-industrial complex as well. It appears we failed to heed his warning.

9/11 was truly tragic, and there is no justification for it. There was likewise no justification for the many acts of terror and atrocities committed by the US or with US backing in Indochina, Central America, and other places in which many more thousands of innocent people were destroyed. We shouldn't be too surprised when our karma comes home to roost.

War is big money. That's why we fight them. Everyone with a brain knows you can't send a uniformed army to fight a shadowy enemy that doesn't even have uniforms. When these so-called stable ( US lapdog) governments have been established and we've left the middle east, the terrorists will get back to business as usual. The only difference is, there will be a central government that we can control, which will make all the resources of the region available to US and Chinese business.

This should have been a covert war from the beginning, if the real objective was to fight terrorism.

Eisenhower (another military man) warned us about the dangers posed by the military-industrial complex as well. It appears we failed to heed his warning.

Even more apparent is the failure to apprehend what Eisenhower really said.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government.

We recognize the imperative need for this development.

Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

Major General Smedley Butler may have been a Quaker, but that does not automatically invalidate his statements as they are based on reason and not faith.

No but his politicking, the Mussolini affair, and being passed over for Commandant do make his motivations questionable. Sour grapes are as likely a candidate as altruism. Advancing his post-military career is also up there. When you read his speeches or book take it with a grain of salt.

From post above: No but his politicking, the Mussolini affair, and being passed over for Commandant do make his motivations questionable. Sour grapes are as likely a candidate as altruism. Advancing his post-military career is also up there. When you read his speeches or book take it with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't say that those things make Butler's motivations questionable at all, quite the opposite, they demonstrate consistency and integrity. He was past over for promotion because of the Mussolini affair.

Let's tell people what that was: Butler passed on an anecdote told to him by Cornelius Vanderbilt that showed El Duce' in a very critical light: That his touring car ran over a little boy in an Italian village and he didn't stop.

Butler didn't like European fascism and many rich powerful people did so he was court marshalled and that's why he got passed over (plus he was alway a maverick)

Likewise he may have stopped a fascist coup aimed at taking over the U.S. government being cooked up by Wall Street Tycoons. He ratted out their representative who had approached him about joining in the coup.

I think all of these things demonstrate he was a patriot (in the best sense of the word) who actually and really believed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights rather than the many military people and politicians of both parties we had then and since who merely pay lip service to it.

The court matial charges were dropped and he was given a reprimand after h apologized. Hoover didn't like him before that, and he made more enemies with his parting shot against his boss the mayor of Philadelphia when he was reassigned. So you can't rest his being passed over entirely on the Mussolini afair.

He didn't start speaking out until after his failed bid for the senate and the Business Plot was nothing more than contemplation and talk of a hair brained scheme. Funny how the American Legion kept getting dragged into kooky plots. There was an addition written to FDR's inaugural speech that had FDR using the American Legion to become a dictator. Butler may not have liked fascism, but it like Mussolini was popular in the 1930s and not just with people that opposed FDR. FDR even indulged in a little script editing for the movie Gabiel over the White House. He kind of liked that dictatorship fantasy.

I still think his motivation is questionable. His conversion is akin to a cardinal becoming an outspoken atheist after losing the papal election.

Ain't been a draft in forever man you been freeze dried or what?

I think that is his point....!!!

Now that is the best statement yet. You are correct. They all volunteered but like many they think that all they have to do is parade around. It never occurred to them that the uniform means you may have to fight. Ironically, NATO is not running this war, we are. They were asked for support and they gave it, and not all of nato is even involved in it. If these moronic idiots did not want to got to war, then they should not have volunteered to go into the military. What a bunch of pathetic losers.

I see people volunteering for Military service because they love their country and want to make a contribution. All good motives. Then they get sent to some sorryassed place like Iraq -2 who did nothing to the US and were already under an 8 year no fly zone keeping them under countrol. They see their buds killed and maimed, and the gubmint admitting - oh yeah, there were no WMD's but hey - it's a good war anyway. and the damage being done to Iraqi people. And the head injuries the military denies, and they finally realise the whole thing was for the benefit of the defense corporations. Not all come to the correct realization, that they were used, and want to protest. Many come to the realization and just quietly go about their business. Some Vets never realise they were used this way. These protestors are few. The vocal minority. But they did go into service as volunteers and they earned the right. Their opinon is just as valid as anyone elses, and in some cases, more so.

Exactly...these people all enlisted...if you didn't want to do the job, why sign up? And the gal protesting about her homeland....all I can say is GO BACK HOME! Freedom isn't free people!

It DOES take the wind out of your sails when you protest something you volunteered to do.

Perhaps they didn't know that they were going to be asked to kill, watch their fellow soldiers die, and possibly get killed themselves over false pretenses when they signed up. It's one thing when a war has a just and righteous fustification. It's a soul shattering thing when it's all founded on a lie.

By the by, why am I not surprised that this message board is filled with collapsed comments that were neither inflammatory, of no value, nor were advertising, or in any other way a violation of the COH? People seem to think that because you don't like what another person says that it gives you the right to publicly gag them even if they don't say anything wrong or offensive.

ManFromNantucket - I agree with you 100% on the collapsed by the community thing. Seems like some people believe in the 1st Amendment as long as it goes along with THEIR view. As long as a comment does not go against the COH it should have to be left on-line. You have a nice day. Peace.

Who is this "community" anyway?

They don't have to serve in combat to earn schooling.

joncar,

That would cost them too much.

many have already bolstered their point. Im one of them. I pay taxes, deliberately dont take VA disability or benefits (GI bill), simply meaning i dont owe the government anything. And there is more than one of this type than me.

I'm shocked that the people responding to this article would rather believe the news media and support the belief that war is good. It's time that the money making business of war is STOPPED. Stop killing our children and the children of the world! Stop robbing us to fund the war! Stop this nonsense of policing the world. My GOD people, wake up to this insanity...

All this B**S*** takes me back to heady days of the 'Nam war!!!Les the servicemen forget!!!!! You take an oath at the time of your enlistment! I was drafted in the Army and lived thru "TET" and other stinking places that most of y'all wouldn't know! Like they say..."WAR IS HELL" but..COMBAT IS A M****f*****!!!. Anyway I earned my medals and I'm proud of them! All of the other winny little turds.."SHUT THE F*** up"! Lets ask our buddies in the body bags, blown all over the Jungle or street how they feel! Bet your butt...THEY wished they could be in your shoes!!"ALIVE" You are dishonoring the Brotherhood!

HI Killer: Did they not serve ? They fulfilled their obligations. They followed their orders. Then afterward they protest. ISn't that the way it should be ? They are not deserters. No military was harmed in the making of this protest !

Just don't get too big for your britches friend.

Pull your head out of your britches.

They should also surrender their genitals. Apparently they have no use for either.

for LiarsInPolitics=duh

So which campaign did you serve in? I'm guessing not one.

Wow Madison!

Have you been to a VFW (or AMVETS or American Legion) lately? The majority of the members are "social members" who never served a day in their life.

Throwing your medals down in a VFW would likely get you a free beer and a slap on the back.

Moderate in madison....I feel sorry for you having to live in that circle of insanity...but I agree throw your medals at the feet of some of those old vets that will be standing proud next weekend, look them in the eye, and make your statements.....then run like hell!

Us old vets would listen and laugh at them. WE had the nuts to fight for their right to do the wrong thing and they could feel all fuzzy warm for spiting on us. Just like the draft dodgers during 'Nam.

@Capt Jack --- UNFORTUNATELY you are correct. I live 23 miles away from Marine Corps Base Camp LeJeune and our local VFW is just as you described.

The message is the war is wrong. Nato is in both of those and technically we are fighting under Nato of which we are a mamber.

How about Operations: Desert Storm, Deliberate Force, Deliberate Guard, Deliberate Forge, Allied Force and Southern Watch. They're all on my DD214. I was in a staff position during OIF and retired before Afghanistan. You, the one and only?

Captain Jack::: You are probably right about members of those organizations. I belong to an organization that doesn't have members like that. Through my dad's service. I belong to the American Ex-Prisoners of War. Sad to say, an organization that is losing members-- but not everyone can be a member.

LiarsInPolitics=duh, How were you in a staff position during OIF but retired before OEF? OEF started 7Oct01 and OIF started 20Mar03. Your story doesn't jive.

LiarsInPolitics, I'll repeat the question, how could you have been in a staff position in OIF (which started in March of 2003) but retired before Afghanistan (OEF), which started almost a year and a half earlier (Oct, 2001)??

2BCT 1AD OIF 05-06 (a sliver, most of my service time during the second deployment of 1AD's 2BCT was in school or in the rear with the gear participating in memorial services for our fallen) 2BCT 1AD OIF 08-09 (full pull, from April, 2008 to June, 2009).

Memo to the brave or foolish, throw down your medals at a VFW Post while this dual service combat veteran is present, and I would advise you to be skilled in martial arts because I'll be suffering some PTSD induced "temporary insanity" in the form of a martial arts demonstration featuring you as the guest of honor !!

Joachim....sounds like you don't know crap about serving in the military, I agree medals mean zip....but what about those that died that don't have a voice anymore? do you think this is a way to honor them?...Oh yeah i forgot you never had honor, just critizism...

These medals are NOT meaningless. They are a symbol of a persons willingness to sacrifice and to put their lives on the line for the rest of us. They are a way of recognizing a person for their service and courage. Even the ones who never leave the wire .I was Airborne Infantry and I respect the cooks and fiance specialists who served, without them I could not have done my job, especially the riggers who packed our chutes. Their duty is often dangerous and unpleasant too. When the @hit hits the fan, they are infantry too. During the Battle of the Bulge in WW2, many holes in the line were plugged using clerks and cooks. They deserve their service medal as much as anyone.

But I have lived long enough to know he is right. At the end of the war your enemy is your friend and nothing much changes except for those who never return at all and those that will never be the same. I honor all vets but that doesn't mean I have to honor all leaders who send them to fight. Milgram my Uncle John was Company C of the 501st of 101st. He jumped at Normandy was wouded in Holland and missed the Bulge because he was still in the hospital.

viewer_ready

Clearly a gutless coward you are. You didn't have the balls to do the job so now you are attempting to slam those who did. Why not just say thank you? One of the costs associated with serving is that in order to serve we had to defend cowards like you. Its worth it if it means we serve those who are also grateful.

Jerry.

I love people who jump to conclusions.

You make my day, and make me smile.

I am a 33 YEAR VET.

Retired now, AND was an all volunteer since 1976.

THANK YOU.

Viewer, Thank you for your sevice to our nation. And since when does 30-50 people out the 10's of thousands that have served make news?

It should not make news Bill.

It just pisses me off.

Jerry didn't get his ass massaged today. Thank you Jerry - you're more special than the other twenty six million vets.

I agree with you 100% Viewer_Ready. And thank you for your service.

Viewer - the word tratitor is bandied about by some people with undue casualness. the word has a meaning. Not one of the guys protesting ever (as far as you and I know) betrayed this country although the country may well have betrayed them.

War these days is mainly only good for the leaches who feed on the blood of patriots.

Joe.....maybe they didn't betray this country, but they betrayed a themselves and those that served with them...maybe they should put what they did down on their resume when looking for a job and see how far that gets them...

Viewer Ready, thought about that myself. Since the draft ended all members of the military are volunteers. So why volunteer knowing that you could be sent to places like Iraq, Afghanistan. Heres to ya, retired USAF.

Wrong about Viet Nam Protesters, it ended the war. It saved more lives. No one regrets protesting to save more lives. Lies were exposed causing soldiers to see the truth. We saw it on tv, taking hills losing lives then giving it up after they were taken. The soldiers who can't handle the truth of being lied to call everyone else gutless, unpatriotic. This is the only way they can deal with being used and lied to. Others protest to prevent people like Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeldt from getting elected to do it all over again. 75% of Romneys foreign advisors are Bush members of his failed cabinet. Here we go again.

It don't see the difference. I joined the Marines in '05 (0311) because I honestly believed in the whole WMD b/s and all the lies they were spewing. Do you think most vets and active duty think we should be in Afghanistan? If you do then you either don't know anyone who has served in OIF/OEF, you do but don't know anyone who has been in combat. If you do then they have issues and are probably a lifer anyways, so of course they need to believe that. I couldn't make it to Chicago but I'd have no issue throwing my medals. 1) A lot of medals are b/s anyways, National Defense, OIF/OEF, 'Good Conduct' and so on. Not to mention except for the more important ones you need to buy them yourself to begin with. I think you'll find most Marine post 9/11 vets have more pride in their CAR (combat action ribbon) which doesn't even rate a medal!
Also how is this betraying their friends who died? What an ignorant POS you are. What would be betraying them is to spew the propaganda we know is b/s and allow future generations to die in these stupid wars. It's not saying they died for nothing because they died for their buddies. I would never say any of my friends who died died for 'freedom' or 'spreading democracy,' and you're a fool if you think that's true. Wonder why suicides are at an all time high?

You are so right !!!

In about 20 years those men will be in Military Chat Rooms claiming to have been Special Forces, Force Recon, Rangers or SEAL's.... even now its rare to meet a mail clerk or truck driver that served in Vietnam.

its rare to meet a mail clerk or truck driver that served in Vietnam

Here's one.

In 1966, he was drafted into the United States Army. On his 1980 resume, he said he served as a public-information specialist who "wrote and edited the battalion newsletter and wrote news releases."[11]

In a 1987 profile on Churchill, the Denver Post reported that he was drafted, went to paratrooper school, then volunteered for Vietnam, where he served a 10-month tour as Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol (LRRP), one of a six-man team sent out to track down the enemy.[12][13] The Post article also reported that Churchill was politically radicalized as a result of his experiences in Vietnam. Churchill told the Post that he had spent some time at the Chicago office of the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) in the late 1960s, and briefly taught members of the Weather Underground how to build bombs and fire weapons.[12]

In 2005, the Denver Post reported that Churchill's military records show he was trained as a film projectionist and light truck driver, but they do not reflect paratrooper school or LRRP training.[11][14] The 75th Ranger Regiment Association found no record of Churchill having been a member of the unit, or a LRRP team.

Thank you for your service Bill.

Keep what you have and be proud.

Some did more than others.

I was the crew chief on a C-130 who might have kicked your ass safely out of my plane.

I hope you landed where we took you.

Some people like me worked for years and never received squat.

While the guys in the AC offices wrote thier own medals and promotions.

ANY medal you have, you deserved.

KEEP THEM.

Ess Vdb,

under O'bamas new NDAA law he signed on New Year's Eve when few people were watching--or caring.

Misinformation again from the right--you gotta stop sitting on FIX NEWS

On May 15, 2012, a U.S. District Judge blocked section 1021^[2], which its critics claim allows indefinite military detention^[3].

The 2013 bill is currently being debated in Congress ^[

It is not a new law, around even in the Dubbya daze

AH,Viewer Ready, Crew chief on a Trash Hauler, explains a lot. Just jawing ya Former Pig Crew Chief (F-4). If it aint leaken its empty!

Bill, you do realize the vast majority of troops who are in combat don't rate medals. Well, maybe in some branches they do, but in the USMC a Combat Action Ribbon doesn't rate a medal. That being said, the only medals many many many combat vets have are campaign, national defense, good conduct and so on. It still sends a message either way.
LOL, viewer Mr. Hardcore Military who is so upset was a POG. That answers a lot of questions.

NO NATO NO WAR, WE DON'T WORK FOR YOU ANYMORE!

Dominigo

Does anyone who is a career military person even care?

The people who bitch are the ones who only collect a paycheck.

Some of us were in for the pay and the patriotism.

If they don't want to be in, they will be weeded out.

Or in the case of today's military, you can just quit.

If you don't understand or object, GET OUT.

We do not want you.

Yes, dont worry about it and opt out when you can on taxes. Eventually the system will crash. Also, there will be no revolution as long as americans have guns. If they go away, I guarantee we will all be put up against the wall by the feds. The government is a giant hydra that needs it's blood drained.

Dingo is pretty well bent against violence except for the coup that he wants others to fight for his benefit.

Tell you what, Domingo let's assume #3 is the next step. Who do you think wins? The tye dyed panty wearing, non-violent mofos like you crying about how their friends were used as pawns in a capitalist killing game? Or the capitalist killers serving to really protect and defend the Constitution who have no intention of letting said Communistas take down the country?

My money isn't on the pony tailed, tye dye, won't touch a weapon types.

Wisconsin issued 600,000 deer permits last year and Pennslyvania issued 700,000. The largest group of armed people in the world are American hunters. Added together they are larger than the armies of most countries.

To all of you who faithfully served, my sincere thanks for your service. As for the rest of you bleeding hearts, your spineless kind will be the defeat of this country. Those who do not understand the concept of "424" Death Before Dishonor are destined to die as cowards. If I have to die for a cause, let it be on my feet fighting to my last breath. This is the greatest country in the world. Can't say I'm real pleased with our government either, but at least honor the men and women who fought, suffered injury, lost their lives, and those who returned home safely by not spitting in their face. What a bunch of Commie Cowards, go live in Baghdad. Disrespecting the medals given you as a thanks from the American people makes me want to BARF!!!

It is the duty of all military members to promote democracy.

This is what built America.

And NO, no one in the US military will fire on US civilians unless fired upon first.

NOW a question for you.

WHAT constitutes a "warranted justified revolution"?

Do I since anarchy in your message?

thomas jefferson said there should be a revolution every generation. We are way past due. Anarchy, or loss of power and the paradigm as we know it, will continue, despite the governments of the world clinging to power.

"To defend against ALL enemies, both foreign and domestic". Stated right there in the oath taken by all who serve

Viewer Ready...

Do you actually believe the current Washington Establishment resembles what was originally intended for the Republic and the American people by our Forefathers? You can omit the standard references to slavery.

As far as your question as to what would be considered a warranted or justified Revolution, I will repeat, '...any government that becomes oppressive or corrupt. If you disagree with that premise, than you disagree with the countless numbers of populations across the Globe that have revolted against oppressive and corrupted leadership throughout History, and the many populations currently attempting to do the same.

My question back to you is, 'How far do we, the American Citizens, allow corruption and oppression to go before we, the people, should consider putting a stop to it by any means.?

Domingo....eat sh$t and die you pogue....Every government we've had since day one has been "oppresive or corrupt" to one group or another..thats what makes this country so great, we either work out the problems or rehire (vote) in new oppressers...get with the program, read your history...

Domingo, in answer to your question. As a vet, if I thought that the revolution was justified, I would join it, if not I would indeed fire on the rebels. In the Civil War I had relatives on both sides just like many Americans. But I do not think our government has reached that point yet and all governments are considered oppressive and corroupt by someone. In some ways we in the US have a peaceful revolution on a regular basis. Fire your shoot at the next one, it is called an election so go vote and then accept the results like most of us vets.

That is the reason the indefinite detention didn't bother me as much as the removal of Posse Comitatus from the military code. Milgram it ain't far from it. Any government where the judiciary gives a teenage kid a gag order for 15 phrases he isn't allowed to say or someone else will be arrested. That is very scary and it happened in Texas in January.

add the U.N. to the list.

Hey Gary..The US doesn't love war, but without it we wouldn't be the country that we are. Oh, and before you say anything I'll explain. This country has thousands of people every day trying to "get into" because they want a better life. Why? Because America has stood up for what is right, until recently, and fought for everything that the people who don't live here want. It was a war that won our independence, it was a war that gave freedom to people who were unjustly held as slaves, it was our participation in the wars of Europe that prevented wholesale genocide. What's your issue with Israel? They are surround by Arab states that want to wipe their country of the face of the earth, they have every right to defend themselves. Genocide of Arab nations? Your delusional! Genocide, not even close. Got it! Noted! You are a coward who believes that everyone should just love each other and then things will be peachy, but when in the recorded history of the human race has that ever happened? If you are not willing to fight for your self then some one else will make you do what they want you to do.

t-1964 u sound brainwashed to the max dude. 911 was a lie and that's why we are in the position we are in. The FED Reserve is bankrupting the dollar on purpose and the entire country in being poisoned by design. The America you worship is not who u think it is. Start researching this countries policies. Pure Nazism.

oh and 1,000,000 and counting dead Iraqis, that's GENOCIDE you f u c king idiot. HTMUOTBF.

Thrill22 more Iraqis were killed in Iraqi on Iraqi violence than by Americans, you would know that if you were ever there.

Obama ..... "liar, liar ... pants on fire" You said you were getting us out. Just another promise that has been broken!!

If you shut down armament manufacturing, Military Aircraft, Navy ships, Army and Marine tank building, the results would be the loss of work for millions of American workers. This is manufacturing that has the lowest level of outsourcing of any industry. For security reasons, probably 80 percent of military equipment and arms manufacturing for the American military is done inside the United States.

We found out in WWII that the manufacture of war goods finally got us out of the Great Depression. To eliminate all of that production without replacing it with something else will bring back a "great depression".

The solution is to replace construction of War goods with rebuilding infrastructure. Repair and replace roads, bridges, neighborhoods in major cities, manufacturing plants with hightec production lines, etc. There are many ways in lieu of war goods production, that we could, by using the budget for war materials, to create new industries and new jobs.

The politicians are afraid to try something like this because of the power of the military/industrial complex which President Eisenhower warned against in the 50"s.

Gary, your anti-Zionist ravings are not helping the protesters at all.

US Army fights the wars of Zionists. Average Joe borrows mortgage. Banks create money when they make loans. They don't lend existing money. Joe works for a lifetime to pay it with interest. If he can't, bank takes his home even though bank did not put a dime in the transaction. Homes would have been cheaper if the loan was not available in the first place. This is world wide financial slavery. The MATRIX is real. You are only a battery to them. Islam is the enemy, because it prohibits interest.

Thrill 22 actually our fiscal policy with the current administration sounds like Mexico in the 80"s just before the Peso devalued. Our current leaders are saying what the leaders of Mexico did then too.

Who killed those 1 million, it was not our troops. It was Saddam, and Terrorist groups. What purpose does bombing a market place serve? The only fear the Iraq's have is from terrorist groups.

Israil is the only democratic country in the area, we should support them, They do not ask for troops, just support. Get a life.

The problem is in building roads, and other infrastructure, don't bring in income to support the costs of the building projects. We already pay gas taxes for them. Government should create the enviorment for job creation not job creation itself, someting they are not good at. A healthy economy creates more taxes, then the government can use that to improve infrastructure.

Banks own your home until you have paid for it. If you take out a 30 year loan and stop paying after 10 years, it's still the banks because you have not paid for it. They have all the risk, until it is paid for. People buy cars under the same conditions. People pay intrest because they do not pay cash for homes and cars. When you use other peoples money (the banks depositors want something for loaning you their money) you pay for the convence.

Who killed those 1 million, it was not our troops. It was Saddam, and Terrorist groups. What purpose does bombing a market place serve? The only fear the Iraq's have is from terrorist groups.

Yeah I quess it was the Iragi's who destroyed all the apartment complexes and hotels. They also called in all those fire strikes on the villages due to some gun fire. They killed all those people that were killed by 5.56, 7.62x51, .338, 30 mm and 50 BMG along with all the ordnance used by our troops.

Israil is the only democratic country in the area, we should support them, They do not ask for troops, just support. Get a life.

The problem is in building roads, and other infrastructure, don't bring in income to support the costs of the building projects. We already pay gas taxes for them. Government should create the enviorment for job creation not job creation itself, someting they are not good at. A healthy economy creates more taxes, then the government can use that to improve infrastructure.

Yeah and War brings in huge bucks as the enemy are paying the us to Kill them. The money it brings in is paid by the government just like building roads/infastructer would. So with your thinking by creating war is the enviroment in which they create jobs. This also goes along with the War on Drugs also as it creates millions in Jobs-Police, DA, prisons, FEMA residential centers and such.

Banks own your home until you have paid for it. If you take out a 30 year loan and stop paying after 10 years, it's still the banks because you have not paid for it. They have all the risk, until it is paid for. People buy cars under the same conditions. People pay intrest because they do not pay cash for homes and cars. When you use other peoples money (the banks depositors want something for loaning you their money) you pay for the convence.

No after approvong the mortage the bank has it insured or sells the debt and also collects on the closing costs. When the repo/forclose on a house they then collect on the insurance and resell it. The crash happened due to there being way to many houses to sell so they sat on them. Seems funny all these banks which were to Big to Fail never had there books gone through(Audit), they were just taken for there word. The government claims they can't go after many banks and wall street investment firms as they had lost all their files from the 90's in that Free Fall collapse of building 7 where all the SEC records were kept. You know Building 7 which fell at almost terminal velocity due to a couple small fires. Why don't you just ask Barry Jennings what he saw and heard in Building 7 shortly before the collapse-oh wait you can't as he was murdered. The day before 9/11 Rumsfeld annonced that the governmet could not account for $2.3 trillion in military spending, well lets have a probe- Oh snap we can't as all the records were kept in the Pentagon right where the coughPlane hit it, darn how convenient.

Yeah go ahead and give me crap about wearing a tinfoil hat. Well for you jokes that say this, get a clue as tinfoil was replaced by aluminum foil around 60 years ago. The real nuts are people that believe everything because the heard or read it in the news and the government said so. I'm not saying what happened happened one way or another but if you know construction and saw these buildings fall, looked into the evidence and lack of then you may also have questions that are not answered like why did NIST never look for explosives-their reasoning make no sense as explosions were reported. Where are all the video footage from all the cameras as there are more CCTVs covering the Pentagon than any other building on the Planet. Yet all we get is 5 frames that show nothing. Along with a real answer how 3 buildings, the only steel buildings in history to fall due to fire fall almost in their own footprint.

How does hijacker Satam al-Suqami's passport get blown(boom) out of a plane that hit the trade center through all that fire and destruction to be found intact on the street blocks away from the Towers. Not in/with a jacket, pants, bag or body part but just laying there. Also a razor knife made to look like a lighter found in field in PA from flight 93, when there was hardly any debris. Also flight 93 also only made a round hole not the one that looks like wings. If you look at history on google earth and go before the crash you can see the marks(scar) that they claimed were "wings" in the sat. image.

Problem is many people won't look for any evidence as they claim others to be conspiracy theory nuts. Well there is also someone that is known/labeled as an Anti-Conspiracy Nut and these folks will call anything/one crazy because the news and government reported otherwise. For me there is enough things that just don't make sense and this causes me to question it. Because of this I look for other evidence, reason and or answers

Fishman you sound like one of those crazy islamic terrorist supporters. and to blame our brave troops for the acts of those islamist exstremeists .That shows you been on drugs to long and reading islamist propoganda to long. You have no idea what your talking about.

Was there lies put forth during the war. Of course there was. Did our Government cover up wrong doing . Yes. This is what happens when the politicians call the shots and not the Generals and Admirals. Just like Vietnam it was controlled by the politicians which cost thousand of lives on our side.

I support the throwing of the medals. Its telling Obama and Congress that our faithfull soldiers are also tired of their crappy lies.

Maybe that is why the Military want autonomous robots in the future. They can kills us without feelings