Because they are environmental groups-if they sue in federal court-the taxpayers pay their legal expenses.

The Center for Biological Diversity has already filed petitions with the EPA-TWICE-to try to ban all lead ammunition-using debunked "junk scince " so-called "studies".

Apparently-they didn't understand the fist time their petition was denied that ammunitionm,and ammunition components CAN NOT be regulated under the toxic substances act-or any other environmental law.

Since one group failed-now every other enviro group out there will try-using the same debunked studies-NOT credible scientific studies...

Other species of vultures,plus hawks and eagles scavenge from gutpiles-and NONE of these species are suffering from ANY form of lead poisoning.

Modern hunting bullets do NOT fragment when they hit game animals-they retain way upwards of 90% of their weight-I know hunters,myself,and my family included that have eaten game shot with lead bullets for over 40 years-NONE of us have elevated levels of lead in our bodies-the very,very small amount of bullet fragments from modern hunting ammo would be more likely to be contained in shoulder meat than in a gutpile anyhow-if you shoot an animal with a rifle bullet-and it didnt'lodge in a large bone mass-like a shoulder-it will pass all the way through the animal-leaving NO PART of the bullet in the gutpile.

This nonsense just shows that these people have no clue about hunting,ammunition,or what a bullet does when it hits game.

good post Larry, even the slugs i use are easily found and retrieve in the carcase...people do not realize just how much us hunters take care of the land, after all if we don't then there wont be any land to hunt on

@ larry1959

1) We, humans, weight about 5 times as these birds, 2) I'm no scientist and I'm too lazy to look it up but logic says lead residue can be absorbed by the 'gut piles' these birds are eating, and 3) This is the 'leading cause of death' in these birds. Now, they could be getting the source of the lead wrong. But, I don't think they're making this up.

Why the denial?

...and hawks and eagles are birds of prey. Just sayin.

If you have not seen or spent time with this magnificent bird, your're missing out. They are huge, and I suspect, quite intelligent.

Is it really asking too much to request hunters not to use bullets that their lead and other chemistry do not kill other living animals and birds? Why sacrifice the threads in the fabric of all life when we do not have to?

The condor was a bird native to the entire western United States; how sad, we are now struggling to sustain just a few in California?

Are we really placed on the Earth to devour every thing in our path or should we be the loving, caring gentle shepherd of the holy flock?

These birds are not intelligent. They have to many times after releasing them, re-capture them because they built their nest where it won't be sustainable. They eat the pennies people throw into the grand canyon, why? Cause they aren't that bright. I know, cause the rangers told us these things listening to the Condor presentation at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. They are scavengers and they all kinds of things that are not good for them including trash. I would be willing to bet that lead from hunters is the least of their problems. Crows are definitely smarter as they eat trash and survive.

Larrry -

Your post is factually incorrect.

Hunters put 3,000 tons of lead into the environment each year, killing 20 million birds via lead poisoning EVERY YEAR.

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/zeroing-in-on-lead-in-hunters-bullets/

This is solved by becoming a bit more self-aware and buying alternatives to lead bullets. Very easy fix to end a lot of horrific suffering.

its ridiculous how these right-wing clowns whine about personal responsibility until it comes to things they don't want to be responsible for.

Lead fragments killing birds is obsurd. They wish to ban lead bullets because they are cheaper than alternative ammunition. Its obummer and the lefts way of slowly taking your second amendment right away. So they can continue to destroy the country with their backwards liberal ideals.

I don't really care what kills them or who's fault it might be. I am just damn happy that they are not as endangered as they once were. I say bring back those condor eggs on my Vegas buffet.

wow, and there comes joe mama with not only an attempt to dodge personal responsibility, but a paranoid conspiracy theory too (with zero facts to back up said nutcase conspiracy theory)

Everyone here missed my point. I think condors are great and wonderful and their recovery is spectacular. My point though is that the CBD is suing the Forest Service who has no regulation over hunting, meaning it's not their place to say what type of bullets do or do not get used. It's all regulated by the AZ Game and Fish, who the article points out encourages and provides lead free amunition.

CBD have a political agenda and are using the condors to try and push their Grand Canyon Watershed National Monument. The lawsuit is frivilous and an attempt to politically manuever in favor of the monument. If they REALLY wanted to support the condor they would be going after the AZ Game and Fish. Just saying, be careful about these articles that don't give the whole picture.

I'm amazed at the naivete of many of the contributors who don't understand where the funding comes from to maintain many of these programs. We wouldn't have CRP programs to restore habitat without the fees from hunters and other outdoorsmen. As a lifetime member of Trout Unlimited, I'd really like to see some of these token environmentalists get involved with pulling trash out of our waterways, including those in public parks and small rivers in rural and suburban settings.

Lip service is cheap, pony up or shut up, and buying a Prius doesn't count. I've paid the premium for solid copper bullets with the intention of leaving the gut pile for scavengers. Part of hunting is in the experience of being where the action takes place, be it watching foxes and crows dancing over entrails or the sight of a condor soaring overhead. All of this makes the meat taste sweeter should I be so fortunate as to fill a tag and take home venison, or take a hatchery trout for a meal because that's why we fish. I prefer to enjoy these sights in the wild, not on an LCD screen, that's why I hunt and fish.

Mike 1088947

Your post is factually incorrect.

Hunters put 3,000 tons of lead into the environment each year, killing 20 million birds via lead poisoning EVERY YEAR.

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/zeroing-in-on-lead-in-hunters-bullets/

This is solved by becoming a bit more self-aware and buying alternatives to lead bullets. Very easy fix to end a lot of horrific suffering.

Your reference is from a Conservation Advocate from the Center for Biological Diversity. As this group is referenced at the front of the comments area for being environmental gadflies they hardly qualify as being unbiased and passing on legitimate statistical data.

The CBD Conservation Advocate cited in the NY Times blog refers to hunters as being responsible for the release of 3,000 tons of lead causing the death of 20 Million birds per year.

Might I say, Poppycock and Balderdash; quick math reveals that this alleged "fact" 3,000 tons of lead = 168,000,000 ounces of lead.

Now... If we break that down further into "grains" of lead used in 30-06 hunting bullets and assume that we're all using 165gr bullets (compromise between 140gr & 180gr)

We're talking 160 million ounces times 437 grains per ounce, divided by 165 grains equals 423,000,000 bullets!!!

Those are some rather astronomical figures and don't suggest any real research with viable unbiased statistics as a result.

BG, it might not be such an unreasonable number when you include shotguns and throw in target shooting, the target shooting certainly accounts for the lions share of lead vs hunting (where you only take the shot that is likely to get a kill)

http://www.census.gov/prod/ec97/97m3329f.pdf

see table 6a

these are 1992 and 1997 numbers, for 1997, 3 billion rimfire rounds manufactured, roughly 1 billion shotgun shells, and around a billion centerfire rounds of various calibers annually

and i seriously doubt that everyone is just simply stockpiling every round since then

hmm, that 3000 ton number doesn't seem so outrageous anymore.

dan, I agree with your responses; my criticism of this figure goes to the statement whereby the people from CBD are saying that hunters are the party responsible for the depositing of this amount of lead into the environment.

Nobody else, just hunters.

CBD is one of the organizations which has tied up the USFS, FWS, and EPA with gadfly lawsuits that have strained the budgets of these departments with the compensation of legal fees. I'd prefer to see the money going to habitat recovery and most especially the recovery of the Potholes Region and other wetlands in the midwest.

LOL - I was waiting for the punch line!

http://instantrimshot.com/ classic/?sound=rimshot

It doesnt matter..as soon as there are a few more. the farmers will complain about the flying over their land and pooping. The Fish and Wildlife Dept will start the hunt themselves i'm sure.

Maybe it's not a problem because they're not eating it? Oh, and it's vast not vats and maybe you meant "ANY kind", ARE not AR, unless you're a pirate.

I too am a hunter (and a Life Member of the NRA), but maybe I have a conscience, I DON"T use lead ammunition in my .30-06, I use either Remington Copper Solid or Hornady GMX. For those naysayers like Matt Blackwood, VH Navy and Larry1959, I suggest that you look at the link from a RESPONSIBLE HUNTING group....and I use similar rounds in my other weapons too....lead free.

There are comparably priced alternatives to pumping tons of lead into the environment be it target shooting or hunting. By the way Larry, make sure you click the link "lead in game meat" and see the x-rays of the fragments found in PROCESSED game meat.

Unfortunately, it is you Larry1959 who is one of those poor misguided souls who propagate the myth that lead ammunition is safe for the environment...and NO, I am not a tree hugger, I just tend to try and be a bit more responsible and aware that there are other animals out there that may ingest that bullet that passed through my game, smells of blood and may just possibly have bits of tissue on it...come on, "smells like chicken, must be chicken"

Phil, yours is an intelligent and thoughtful post. I am no doubt at odds with you philosophically, as I am a supporter of strict gun CONTROL - I emphasize that word because I do not think it's necessary to BAN guns, but there needs to be much more control. I found your post to be convincing and I can buy what you have said. I believe all hunters should be as responsible as you seem. Thank you.

Phil-

Thank you for your integrity. There are frequently avenues that result in win-win, unfortunately they seem to be out of favor in politics and debate these days.

sarita, the "control" of which you speak merely needs to be self-control, which certain paranoid, whiners don't believe in, and phil certainly does

phil, thank you for your responsible actions

Phil -

Thank you!

Bald eagles primarily eat fish. If it were possible to shoot fish, I'm sure Larry would be out there doing it. Predatory birds were dying off because of DDT poisoning, not lead ingestion. Condors eat dead animals. I suggest Larry conduct an experiment: add a teaspoon of lead shot to every meal and see if the harmless hypothesis is true.

Likeits1999

How many gut piles are there? How many does one condor get in a year?

I know they can't get one everyday Lucky to get one a month. What did it eat before it found a gut pile?

I would think it must eat at least every 2 days. Once a day would be best. I think they need to find a different source. Water may be.

Incorrect, Liketis. Bald eagles are scavengers and will eat carrion. Here's what happened to one bald eagle after doing so. Lead poisoning is the worst death known to man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyZLxobg5k0

Larry1959...your statement is excellent in the push for NON-Lead ammunition, though I don't see the "science" behind the percentage...anyway you stated that modern rifle ammo retains "over 90% of it's weight-even after passing through an animal-the chances of lead fragments being in gutpiles is next to nothing".

While 10% or even 5% of that bullets weight would be nothing for the amount of contact we as humans have with the ammunition, that same 5% or 10% in a 40 or 50 pound bird, ingested regularly by that bird can and will be fatal as it builds up over time.

@Mike-1088947 " Lead poisoning is the worst death known to man" I beg to differ, radiation poisoning is way worse.

Larry1959-

90% weight retention under ideal circumstances and provided it doesn't hit bone. If it does, all bets are off.

D, it is proven that using lead shot to hunt waterfowl does harm the birds... they scoop it up off the bottom for use in their craws to help digest food, and do suffer lead poisoning. Lead shot fired over land has no effect whatsoever... you do know that lead comes from the ground in the first place right? The proof, hunters have been using lead shot for hundreds of years... and until man started using DDT, and taking over their habitat, the condors were fine. Now if all you liberals would just leave California and go to China the birds would do very well indeed.

Ask the men who served in the Gulf War. Lead ammunition is downright behign compared to spent uranium.

Condors ingest trash (glass, aluminum foil, metal, etc) and regurgitate it to their young, who then die. Condors are being trapped and this trash removed (Goggle it if you don't believe it). Thousands, if not millions of dollars are being spent for this "research". This (trash & litter) is a far bigger problem than lead bullets, a fact the animal rights anti-hunters overlook. So if Condors do this, does it make any difference if the bullets in gut piles are lead or copper? Will you shut up if they start dying from ingesting copper (or any other non-lead) ammo? I think not. You are really just looking for a scapecoat to "blame".

With it's higher mass, lead is much more effective ballistically. And less effective loads DO wound a lot more birds without killing them (see steel shot and waterfowl). Liberals often get results just the opposite of what they profess to want, because they're often ignorant of the facts regarding wildlife management. Several areas in the country have banned hunting, thinking that was the compassionate thing to do for the animals, only to find that the deer populations explode. That results in a much higher number of deer/car encounters, and in deer getting old and dying of starvation when their teeth are ground totally down. The problem, no wolves or coyotes to keep the populations in check. Sane wildlife management has been working for nearly a hundred years, and has brought many species back from near-extinction. The article said that even the Condors were coming back... despite the anti-hunting nutzos....

Bob - very faulty thinking. Unless, of course, there is a similar tax imposed on all hunters and NRA members who insist on using ammo that can, and often does, decimate many different species.

Sorry Sarita, that tax of which you speak is already in existence and has been for many years. The monies spent by sportsmen have done more to fund habitat and species recovery programs than the environmentally responsible can apparently grasp.

What should be of greater concern is the leachate from the tailings piles of the abandoned mines which are all over the greater Southwest; including the Sierras, which are central to the historic range of the Condor. These tailings piles are a greater hazard than all the hunters and NRA members as the leachate goes into the ground water and affects absolutely everything, be it fish, fowl, or fur-bearing.

BG, no argument that the tailings piles are yet another threat source

Dan, the recording of lead contamination in rivers and stream on the western slopes of the Rockies and the slopes of the Sierras began in the early 1900's and was evidenced first by the decline of fish populations in the drainages below abandoned mine sites. Most notable is the area where silver mining was done through the Sierras, an area where we find the historic range of the condor.

If a deer is stupid enough to eat a natural element that can kill it (meaning it has not evolved one bit since the invention of deers), dies, gets eaten by a condor, and then the condor dies from this natural element, I see your point.

If said deer gets shot by a bullet (unnatural), dies, gets eaten by a condor, and then the condor dies from this unnatural element, it's bad for the environment.

Fishermen deposit a great deal more lead in every lake, stream and sea side resort than has ever been fired. Ban evil evil fishing it is noisy, messy smells really really bad, and pollutes the waters of all of California with hazardous lead lead lead. Lead in your fish, lead in your water from evil nasty smelly fishermen,

So, for some reason they are trying to correlate that a hunter wakes up in the morning, goes hunting for hours then shoots a deer "in the gut" then leaves it to die instead of breaking the animal down for food? Thus some other creature comes along and eats it with the lead round.

I suspect a wolf or coyote is going to chew through the meat and swallow a large hunk of metal as well.

Hmm, I always though that hunters stalk and kill a dear by shooting it in the neck or head if possible, gutting and storing the meat.

You do need buck shot for birds, very hard to shoot a bird with a single round.

Also, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of acres and not being hunted 24/7.

The numbers and retarded theories don't add up.

I would say go eat your vegi-burger and just shut the hell up.

Damn Hippies should have stayed in college and taken math and statistics.

so let me get this straight..we are going to ban a natural element that comes from the earth because it is bad for the environment...

well hell, that arsenic in your well water can't be that bad...

You beat me to it, danwill. ALL SORTS of natural elements that come from the earth that I, personally, wouldn't want to eat. Maybe VH Navy is just more gustatorily adventurous than most of us. Maybe he/she would like to chase that lead and arsenic with a cool, refreshing glass of mercury...

So, for some reason they are trying to correlate that a hunter wakes up in the morning, goes hunting for hours then shoots a deer "in the gut" then leaves it to die instead of breaking the animal down for food? Thus some other creature comes along and eats it with the lead round.....

......Hmm, I always though that hunters stalk and kill a dear by shooting it in the neck or head if possible, gutting and storing the meat.

......Damn Hippies should have stayed in college and taken math and statistics.

Nooooo, I believe they're trying to say that when some hunters gut their kill, they leave behind a pile of unwanted guts, which may contain lead. The birds then eat this "gut pile" and get lead poisoning.

Damn non-Hippies should have stayed in high school and learned reading comprehension.

@lilian101 You can tell you're from California.

Mary Ann-4288089

It is also very hard to hit a bird with buck shot. There just aren't that many pieces of buck shot in a shell...and oh what a mess you will have if you do. Buck shot was made for shooting deer (Buck, male deer). Your hunting knowledge seems to be lacking.

actually jeff. lillian is a right-wingnut just making stuff up

and lillian, lead in the streams is a huge problem too, I know this from experience when I pan for gold in various streams, some popular fishing streams are full of lead (which I take and recycle)

and I think CA actually has banned the sale of lead weights for fishing

@ danwill - California has, (or is trying to), banned panning for gold as well. (It disturbs the aquatic environment, silt, etc.)

actually, I think it was everything except the pan (Ie, sluice, dredge, etc.)

I know that they haven't issued any dredge permits for over a year

I'm not an NRA member but I sure ain't about to give up my guns. But I would be happy to give up lead bullets and undermine anti-gun sentiments and--far more important--keep lead levels from increasing in the soil over time. It is not a major compromise for me even tho lead is the best cheap bullet.

This article is all about liberal anti-gun propaganda

gee, what other response would one expect to hear from a name like "christian warrior"

someone who thinks big daddy will fly down and clean up his mess, so much for "personal responsibility"

What moronic crap. The lead from gasoline that has imprinted itself on every square inch of this state is well beyond the imaginings of any possible residual lead from firearms, further lead is natural in this state.

lilian, where is your proof for this and the fishing argument?

Radon is also natural in parts of CA, but I don't advise people to keep their windows shut.

lilian101,

That is why we removed lead from gasoline. It's natural for infants to eat lead paint chips too and it makes them very stupid--naturally. If it's still true that lead is killing condors I think most hunters would be happy to avoid it if they knew. Why don't you go chew on some fishing sinkers for a few months and report back--if you can still talk/type by then.

What is your proof of this? Are you referring to this?

"In 1988, the Fish and Wildlife Service began a three-year reintroduction experiment using Andean condors as stand-ins for their endangered California cousins.

Between December 1988 and January 1989, thirteen female Andean condors were released, equipped with radio transmitters for monitoring by biologists. Only females were released to prevent reproduction in the wild—accidentally introducing a new species into a new habitat. These birds helped scientists perfect release techniques and to identify environmental threats before California condors were reintroduced."

US Fish and Wildlife Service

Not exactly the same thing.

lilian has never been one for little details like "facts"

Want to see a bunch,go to Mexico or the Grand Canyon! They are like flies!

Lead is something to be reduced, period. Reduce your exposure to radon, arsenic, etc. also. Just because it's naturally occurring never means it's definitely "OK." Lead in gasoline, paint, etc. has been banned for very good reason. If you don't understand why lead is dangerous, do some research.

Prioritize what the worst environmental exposures for humans as well as animals, and focus on ways to reduce/eliminate those exposures (don't mine asbestos, use lead paint, etc.).

I heard these stories for years.Use to be exposed to lead,nothing happened.Use to take mercury from old utility boxes and play with it,nothing.Have an IQ in excess of 130,nothing!It's all BS!

mas, I don't understand what you're saying. What does "Use to be exposed to lead, nothing happened" mean? Are you saying something about lead?

DDT is not still banned from all countries. In 2006:

"Environmental groups had a mixed reaction" when the World Health Organization reversed a 30-year-old policy and declared its support for indoor use of the pesticide DDT to control mosquitoes in regions where malaria is a major health problem.

"Given the severity of the malaria epidemic now in Africa and parts of Asia, it is reasonable to be using limited amounts of DDT for indoor use," said John M. Balbus, a physician who heads the health program at Environmental Defense. He said DDT "is not the single answer, but it can be part of the solution until we find a better alternative."

-Washington Post

DDT has saved hundred of thousand lives if not millions and is just another example of envirmentalism gone crazy.These people want control nothing else!Thrity years ago the the earth was going to be a vast wasteland of ice because the next ice age was rapidly approaching.They found out,that wasn't working so now the earth is warming!I already hear the cries for more regulation form them because of this years warmer than normal winter.If one could determine the future of climites based on one year,on one would ever have to worry about dying in a hurricane.They sit around salivating everytime something goes they way they claimed.Next year ,when everyone is trying to unbury themselves from a near record harsh winter,they will claim that too is a representation of lcimite warming! If an iceberg was spotted off the coast of Florida,it wouldn't change these nuts beliefs!

People are still allowed to use DDT to save lives.

Regarding climate change (or any issue involving science), no one should argue that scientists are never wrong. On the other hand, to insist that they are always wrong, or that your intuition "tells" you they are wrong because you don't like what you're hearing doesn't make any sense. I don't see any arguments you make here that are supported by reliable sources.

DDT isn't banned worldwide, and is used in many places around the world to this day. It's lost a lot of its effectiveness due to mosquito resistance in many places.

But hey, I wouldn't expect a conservative to actually know or care about facts. You can just make things up (like a worldwide DDT ban) and pretend you care about dying children in Africa, when you're probably on another message board complaining about US foreign aid or other help to struggling children.

Sorry, it's liberals that lie through their teeth. All the fear mongering is NOT backed up by the raw numbers and it's absurd fear mongering that creates deniers. People can smell BS a mile away so when they catch you in one lie, they naturally think every thing you say is a lie.

Using fear mongering techniques makes you your own worst enemy. Even the IPCC has backed off their dire predictions since they found CO2 was greatly over estimated in it's effects.

Valhalla,

In the article "Despite Climategate, IPCC Mostly Underestimates Climate Change" from Scientific American, James McCarthy, faculty of the Harvard Medical School Center for Health and the Global Environment, states:

“If you were to go back and map the IPCC projection for sea level rise and temperature in 1990, look at it in 1995, look at it in 2000. In retrospect you would find that they were conservative. So we talk about errors. If you were to do two ledgers—here are IPCC overestimates, here are IPCC underestimates—over the 20 or so years that these assessments have been running, the underestimate ledger would be much larger than the overestimate (my italics). Even with glitches—clearly erroneous editing or sloppy editing that led to these erroneous statements that got us in trouble recently.”

What are your sources?

You are insane!

What are your sources here?

That's about the grammar, maturity and intelligence level I'd expect from an Ayn Rand cultist.

well gee galt, aren't all those mexican gang-bangers illegals anyways? so it's not as if you care about them

so do you have a point, or are you just making noise to hear yourself make noise?

"I'm pretty sure the condors don't eat bullets."

The article explains that they are able to eat fragments of lead bullets in what's left behind from a shot animal.

Yeah I read it, but how rare is it that a random condor will swallow a random fragment of a random carcass left by random irresponsible hunters? One bird might die from lead poisoning over the next year. I've been watching the condor thing since I was a kid. I thought John Hammond from Jurassic Park cloned a flock of these!

So you disagree with the deputy conservation division manager at the Oregon Zoo, who says "Lead poisoning from lead ammunition is the one thing preventing them from becoming a self-sustaining, non-endangered … wild population"?

The article "Ammunition is the Principal Source of Lead Accumulated by California Condors Re-Introduced to the Wild" from Environmental Science Technology states, "In conclusion, our results indicate that incidental ingestion of ammunition embedded in carcasses that condors feed on is the principal source of elevated lead exposure that threatens the recovery of condors in the wild. (my italics)"

Both these sources are saying not only is it not rare that this happens, but that lead ammunition is actually threatening condors' recovery. Do you have nay sources that show otherwise?

Blah Blah82,

It's not about 'gun control', maybe it's about projectile control--"ammo-control", or perhaps it's just about awareness such that hunters may make smarter choices. Depleted uranium is far denser therefore better for bullets then lead--should we allow that also to be spread about the landscape?