YES....this is called having a reasonable doubt......therefore no convition....!!!!

Just the facts 'mam

FACT: one has a criminal record of battery on a police officer and domestic violence

FACT: the other is a teenager. No police record. Period.

FACT: There is no record of battery on a police officer because charges were lowered and eventually dropped....

FACT: The teenager was caught with 12 pieces of women's jewelry, a man's watch and a screw driver in his backpack. He claimed the items were given to him by a friend he refused to name. He also was suspended from school 4 times, the latest because of drug possession and paraphernalia.

those are FACTS that your facts fail to acknowledge....

Fact... the charges against GZ were reduced as he was going to the assistance of a friend. The officer in question was undercover and NOT in uniform.

Fact... Domestic violence? Both his girlfirend AND GZ had restraining orders against the other. but a restraining order is quite different than a conviction for abuse of any kind don't you think?

Fact... TM's records have been sealed by the court as any prior history was as a "juvenille".

They were BOTH idiots and wrong. One died and the other has his life torn apart.

But, regardless of what you or I think or believe, the only opinions that matter will be those of the 12 on the jury.

• FACT: An Internet thread of public opinion will NOT determine the results of this case.
• FACT: A jury will make the decision on who is/is not guilty.

Time for the media to chill it and publish only the final results of the trail.

This is starting to sound like the testimony from the movie, "My Cousin Vinney"....my contacts were out, maybe it was just one guy running, after I read stuff...my night vision improved.....

And as far as his "tone being casual"....subjective at the least, Zimmerman, as anyone who felt forced to shoot, was in shock...the last 2 minutes had to be a spinning blur the moments after...

I'm certain experienced interogators from the Prosecutors Office are quite skilled in getting someone to answer the question the way they want them to.....

Only (MS) NBC is still really pushing the hard line on this.....Even after they were caught editing the tape between dispatch and Zimmerman .... to fire up the racist claims they were just dying to make.........The rest of the National news outlets have softened their stance and headlines.....

"was going to the assistance of a friend". You mean an underage friend in a bar.

Fact: Being in a neighborhood WATCH program is exactly that. WATCHING, not stalking, confronting, and killing people you are suspicious of. If he was on WATCH, he should have left his gun home, as is the rules for neighborhood WATCH programs.

Fact: GZ disobeyed many rules, including instructions from 911 NOT to pursue TM. Anyone who has gone thru neighborhood WATCH instruction knows they are only allowed to WATCH. (duh!)

If GZ had followed the rules, TM would be alive, and GZ wouldn't be heading to prison (where I'm sure he will get along just fine in GP).

Anything TM had done prior is irrelevant to this case. This is about GZ overstepping his authority, stalking, and killing a minor. If some moron stalked and cornered me, I would do my best to beat him to a pulp. Too bad GZ is such a pussy and couldn't fight man to boy(?).

GZ gives ALL gun owners a bad rep, and that pizzes me off. Control freaks should not be allowed to own firearms.

This case screams "reasonable doubt".

Fact: A defendant's prior record has no bearing on current charges.

Fact: A victim's prior record has no bearing on current charges.

Fact: Most of you people have made up your minds a long time ago, and actual facts make no difference.

At TM's age, GZ had no record of interaction with law enforcement at all, so the comparisons of history between the younger TM the older GZ are futile.

If this doesn't end with a conviction for Zimmerman there will be riots just like after the Rodney King beating. Either way Zimmerman's life is over.

Yawn. Isn't this over yet?

The truth is that a lot of these so called witnesses did not see much of anything and were trying to defend their buddy Zimmerman. Many are apparently having second thoughts and are now coming clean, particularly as more evidence contradicts their stories, like the voice analysis that says it was Martin screaming for help not Zimmerman.

The reality of this is that there had been a number of robberies in the neighborhood and Zimmerman wanted to be the neighborhood hero and catch the crook. When he saw Martin, this prompted Zimmerman to try and play vigilante and he went after Martin even after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to. It turns out that Zimmerman got it wrong and Martin was just an innocent kid heading back home to his dad's girlfriend's house where he had every right to be. Zimmerman was hyped up on an adrenalin rush thinking he was going to be the hero and catch the burglar so he confronted and then ended up shooting Martin. Unfortunately Zimmerman got it wrong and Martin was not the neighborhood burglar, he as an innocent kid heading home. This is the reason that vigilantism is wrong and that law enforcement should be left to the professionals like the police, not cop a wanna-be like Zimmerman. Zimmerman caused the confrontation that resulted in Martin being shot and regardless of whatever else happened deserves to be charged for his actions.

Hi Sane Central,

So far as we know from what has been reported, Zimmerman has, in fact, violated no rules of any kind. It may turn out that way in court since it will be 12 jurors listening and watching the evidence presented by the DA, rebutted by the defense, who will decide, but maybe we should wait to make those kinds of conclusions until they have had their chance?

Still, until then, there isn't a single rule broken by Zimmerman. He was able to legally carry. He was able to legally observe, even follow, Martin. He was able to defy the suggestion of the dispatcher (theirs is a rote suggestion anyhow), and even though he didn't defy the dispatcher and did in fact stop pursuing Martin (which you can easily hear on the audio) he still could have. He was even able to use deadly force if one of two situations were present--either self-defense (which the story above seems to support) or SYG (which the story above seems to support, or at least not contradict).

Needless to say, none of us should be taking any kind of legal advice from you. Which brings up the larger legal point here. The DA has a sworn duty to seek justice, regardless of the political concerns of a case. It seems to me that there isn't just ample reasonable doubt in this case to not try it, but there is actually large amounts of exculpatory evidence which exonerates Zimmerman entirely. If all we've seen so far is part and parcel of the rest of what the state has, then the judge ought to dismiss the case with prejudice and allow Zimmerman to go free. Even if a trial is condicted which completely exonerates Zimmerman, there will always be people, such as you, who will maintain he is guilty, so why go through with a trial just to convince people like you of the rightness of a verdict?

Sane Central -

GZ gives ALL gun owners a bad rep, and that pizzes me off. Control freaks should not be allowed to own firearms.

Nor should anyone taking the medication George Zimmerman was taking at the time. Unfortunately, no one will know for sure what he had taken that day because no drug test was done after the shooting, but anyone who has been trained by a serious professional would know you don't carry if you're drinking, doing drugs - legal or not - or in a heightened emotional state (angry, out for revenge, etc.) because mistakes are made. Zimmerman was an idiot on many levels.

no matter what happened, a kid should not have lost his life at 17 years old. there's still no justification for murder.

This guy did what he did in self defense..everything is backing him up galore from very first interview with police six minutes after happen..The black community just made this a national cry of racism ( which its not)... like most times.

The guy is innocent..and will be found innocent..like it or not!

This is the fact. He's not going to serve much time. I've seen this before. If they was going to throw the book at him, they would have already did it. Even Al and Jesse are quiet.

Unfortunately, because of ALL the news media and the negativity this has been brought on, with the black panthers and such, I feel that there is ONLY one decision for this man. I really do not think he will get any fair trail maybe go through the motions? At the end there might be only one verdict and that will be guilty or else we will have another incident on our hands like we did with Mr. Rodney King, which is REALLY scary. It is against the law to advertise your self to hire out a gun for hire, etc. but then again, the black panthers set up a bounty for Mr. Zimmerman and nobody was arrested for that?! Thanks for listening.

Rich-281385...(#1.15)..."The DA has a sworn duty to seek justice, regardless of the political concerns of a case."

I just wanted to add that at the Press Conference, the Special Prosecutor in announcing the indictment, said she was seeking Justice for Trayvon Martin.....Not Justice...but Justice with the outcome she wants.

I live 900 miles away, and when i looked out my window the night of the shooting, in the rain, i saw the same thing the witness' saw.... NOTHING but darkness :-)

We do know what happened, this "apprentice" police man shot and killed the other man/boy, for no other reason than to please his friends with guns!!--That is why he was not even arrested for a month!

And we now can see that even an apprentice police man apparently can get away with this, like real ones about 1000 times a year!--We are in the USA, where anyone with a FREEDOM gun has his killer rights, according to his wishes!--I have no idea why we have a court system, that is just a joke as well, where everyone is coached to get the "opinion" the leaders/money of the trials want!--Just look at the donations!

Wow, the witness tampering has begun in earnest, I see. If their story changed, their credibility goes If this keeps up, it will be dismiss due to lack of evidence.

This is all about damage limitation now. Not justice. IMO I bet this case has people from the Whitehouse all over it.... once wrong decision and they'll be riots in every major city! Sad. Martin was no saint like the media first portrayed him to be and zimmerman has issues too. Martin, 17? in 9th grade? Zimmerman on meds, carrying a gun? surely a doctor issuing meds should revoke any fire arm license? or suspend it atleast? Anyway, the case is a mess, from what the media tell us Zimmerman should go free because there's no factual evidence... now these witnesses are changing their stories!!! WTH! This should be a movie! and one I wouldn't wanna see!

The question no one asked: Did the robberies stop after TM was killed?

JS in SD

The truth is that a lot of these so called witnesses did not see much of anything and were trying to defend their buddy Zimmerman. Many are apparently having second thoughts and are now coming clean, particularly as more evidence contradicts their stories, like the voice analysis that says it was Martin screaming for help not Zimmerman.

The reality of this is that there had been a number of robberies in the neighborhood and Zimmerman wanted to be the neighborhood hero and catch the crook. When he saw Martin, this prompted Zimmerman to try and play vigilante and he went after Martin even after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to. It turns out that Zimmerman got it wrong and Martin was just an innocent kid heading back home to his dad's girlfriend's house where he had every right to be. Zimmerman was hyped up on an adrenalin rush thinking he was going to be the hero and catch the burglar so he confronted and then ended up shooting Martin. Unfortunately Zimmerman got it wrong and Martin was not the neighborhood burglar, he as an innocent kid heading home. This is the reason that vigilantism is wrong and that law enforcement should be left to the professionals like the police, not cop a wanna-be like Zimmerman. Zimmerman caused the confrontation that resulted in Martin being shot and regardless of whatever else happened deserves to be charged for his actions.

You sure do like to assume.

Time for the media to chill it and publish only the final results of the trail.

So Ido just curious where were you when the Casey Anthony case/trial was going on? Was it okay for the media to give their constant twitter reports on that...........

Here's an idea! You are sick of hearing about this story?! There's this fascinating little button called "FAST FORWARD". It works great when you don't want to hear or read something. USE IT.

Some of you are confusing the claims being made. The DA claims Zimmerman murdered Martin. The DA must prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman, however, has claimed self-defense as an affirmative defense. This defense must be proven by the defendant. So if you're thinking we're not sure what happened, then that is bad for Zimmerman since the burden of proof is on him to prove it was self defense.

If there is reasonable doubt to whether it was self defense then a jury should convict Zimmerman, because he did not meet the standard required to prove his affirmative defense. If he fails to prove any single element of the self-defense claim then the judge should grant a directed verdict in favor of the DA.

Stand your ground did not create a new affirmative defense. It adds to the standard self-defense statutes on the books. A self-defense claim under SYG must still be proven by the defendant.

So, in other words, reasonable doubt, as some have confused it here, is where the defendant uses a negation defense to cloud whether he or she did the crime. That is not in question here. The only reasonable doubt in this case is the affirmative defense made by Zimmerman which he must prove.

Bundgaard-1210892

We do know what happened, this "apprentice" police man shot and killed the other man/boy, for no other reason than to please his friends with guns!!--That is why he was not even arrested for a month!

And we now can see that even an apprentice police man apparently can get away with this, like real ones about 1000 times a year!--We are in the USA, where anyone with a FREEDOM gun has his killer rights, according to his wishes!--I have no idea why we have a court system, that is just a joke as well, where everyone is coached to get the "opinion" the leaders/money of the trials want!--Just look at the donations!

What???

sure hope my over zealous heat pack'n medicated neighbor hoodie watch guy...pay'n close attention...i blame no one...but i wish i had some skittle's ...maybe i'll send my kid down to the store...better put his hoodie on it's get'n cool outside...

When i was 17, i didnt think was a kid. I thought i was a badass and if u crossed me, I d kick ur ass. But I was young and very dumb. Im lucky i didnt end up dead or shot up like TM. IF U PLAY WITH FIRE, U RISK GETTING BURNT. HOW SEVERE THE BURN IS, is up to God.

JD in SD - I think it may have more to do with these witnesses fearing internet persecution should they be on the wrong side of the public's verdict.

Too many times have people been persecuted by the ignorant masses because the media loves a fire storm. It increases ratings, thus pushing up the cost of advertising. Then when the people who are now "outed" are blasted on the news continuing the fanning of the flames. Most stories like this, and how out of control they get, can be directly associated with the media and the direction they want to take in. What sells? The media should be ashamed as to what they have become, but they don't care. It is making them money.

The poor witness statements only weakens the prosecutors position. GZ is not there to prove innocence, the prosecutor MUST without a doubt prove intent (state of mind) or prove George was perpetrating another crime while shooting Trayvon. There doesn't seem to be ANY evidence of any of this, so far regardless how minute or subtle some of the evidence may seem... it all substantiates George's statements.

What this looks like, and I'm sure that JS in SD will agree 100% whether he admits it or not, is that Zimmerman was innocent, the witnesses supported that, and now they are being threatened so they are afraid to tell the truth. The special prosecutor is letting them know that she can ruin their lives if they say something she doesn't like.

This case has new developements day by day I don't think anyone should comment until the full transcripts of the trail are available. All I know is a young man is deceased and another man's life is in tatters and from what is coming out it sounds like there is more to this than we know or will ever know. All we can do is pray for both parties and remember this man is innocent until proven guilty and I hope people can refrain from making this racial. The race thing in this country is way out of hand to the point where common sense doesn't even factor in anymore.

FACT- cases like this should not be tried by the media or the court of public opinion. I am all for freedom of the press but in this instance it will clearly impact the outcome of this case. The rights of those involved, both Zimmerman and Martin's family, to a fair trial should trump all else. That simply can not happen in this day and age of 24/7 biased media coverage, speculation and sensationalizing.

Hey, wait just a minute ...... this case is in Florida right ....?

Not Guilty ....... NEXT .....!

alright it sounds like they didn't really change their stories but added more detail

JS in SD... As for leaving it to the professionals in Florida google "Palm Beach Sheriff 'Forced' to Shoot Unarmed Man". It seems the difference between a professional and vigilante is that it takes four shots versus one!

Now the stories change. Wonder if any of the witnesses are getting death threats?

@Yeah?

This is directly from the Florida Murder 2 statute:

perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life

In a court of law, it doesn't matter what you think happened, it matters what you can prove. The DA cannot prove these two elements. The DA cannot prove that GZ did anything illegal or reckless. The prosecution might think it. They might know it. But they cannot prove it.

who the heck knew, there were five witnesses, all the story's agree a fight was in progress, Martin was shot from a close range, while zimmerman was on the ground; how on earth did the prosecutor come up with a 2nd murder charge, a terrible tragedy but not a premeditated murder.

This is a sad place for the country to be because it makes all the bad in people come out. I do agree with one comment on here where it was said that there had been homes broken in in that neighborhood and Zimmerman wanted to catch someone so he could be a hereo. There is just one problem in playing a super hero, you have to be fair and in Zimmerman's case, he was hunting young black men, which makes this not just murder but it is a hate crime too. The people in the neighborhood might be the reason why this all happened by boosting up Zimmerman because the dude had a big ego brought on by the very people that were willing to lie for him until this week. I want justice to be done in this case because if it's not done this may give people the wrong idea when it comes to killing black men especially young black men. Everybody keep saying all sorts of bad things about a 17 year old that was guilty only because he was black in a neighborhood where break ins had occurred . The 17 year old was no different than any other 17 year old, so what the hell, he smoked marajuana, so do must teenagers even I did it in the 1970's same age. His smoking marajuana didn't kill anybody so why comment on it, now if he had smooked marajuana and then shoot up a school like it has been done many times by white kids I would understand yet this didn't happen. I just feel like we have a sad case where an innocent 17 year old precious black child was taken from his family and it was done by a person that hated blacks especially black men or ass holes as he called them. Yes this case screams bloody justice and if justice is not served, I do believe that our country will have days of pure hell and I would expect that.

can I ask a question of your supreme intellects. Since so many of you know that happened that night.

If you watch the video of Trayvon in the convenience store. Do you notice that he is unsteady on his feet? Do you notice the cashier moving back to be able to get away from the customer if something goes wrong? Do you notice that the cashier watches him all the way out, even doing a few stretches to be able to observe the customer a bit longer? Sounds to me like Trayvon was on something at the time. Those of you that already have convicted Zimmerman, please take a second to read all the news, not just one source. You want to now why all those people have started changing their stories, look at the sensationalized headlines and ask yourself if this goes either way, will someone try to hurt me for giving out the honest truth since it does not agree with what they believe.

Yawn. Isn't this over yet?

Not even close. It's interesting to see people like this isn't it?

@JimP1969

I know how things work in court; I'm an attorney. Killing someone, without a justification like self defense, meets both elements in your quote. That's why his affirmative defense is all that matters. If you want to know how to interpret that statute look up the case law and don't go by your gut feeling on what it means.

first of all, for those who have kids or thinking about kids in the future...would you be so quick to call george zimmerman innocent if it was your kid he murdered....he is not innocent....he took a childs life...if you notice on the 911 tapes he kept saying the word black...he said and he's black in a matter of fact way....all of you all are going to reap what you sow who had anything to say about it being justified a young man lost his life.

Seems to me the prosecution is pressuring the witnesses to change their original statements. Sounds like witness tampering to me. If the facts don't fit the prosecution's case, then by all means change the facts.

Nicodemus1946:

You are mistaken! The changed story witnesses were witnesses for "Z." With them dropping like flies now, how do you think they will look to a jury???? "Z" will lose his collaboration and will be found guilty 2nd degree murder. Justice is bliss!

To those that keep saying the dispatcher/operator told Zimmerman not to follow Martin. She did not such thing. She said that they did not need him to do that. Big difference. Your come home and your neighbor mowing your lawn. You say that you did not need him to. But he continues and finishes mowing your lawn. So you call the police because he has mowed your lawn. You tell the police that you came home and found him mowing your lawn. They ask if you asked him to stop. You say, no, but I told him that he did not need to mow my lawn. Do you think the police would do anything? You did not tell him not to mow your lawn, you just said that they did not need to.

Also, the dispatcher/operator uses that wording for a couple of specific reasons. They have no authority to tell you to not do it, because it is a perfectly legal thing to do. The second reason is for liability reasons. If they know you are following someone and are OK with it and do not tell you that they do not need you to do it, then they could be sued because you were working on their behalf. So they tell you that they do not need you to do it, so that if you do, it is YOUR choice and it covers their butts.

Against Union Thievery "If this doesn't end with a conviction for Zimmerman there will be riots just like after the Rodney King beating. "

So you're saying he should be convicted, even if he's innocent?

I wonder if you'd feel the same way if the dead victim was Hispanic and the shooter was Black?

I think we all need to just give this case a rest - It will be sorted out at trial, and nobody's opinions matter on this vine.

Yeah?

So you are saying that if the jury thinks 50.0001% that it was not self defense and 49.9999% that it was self defense that they should convict him? Just sounds wrong.

They are changing their stories because they are being asked to take lie detector tests. No, not admissible...sure as hell embarrassing.

If Zimmermans scratches make it ok to kill someone in self defense, half the children in Kindercare can shoot the hell out of the other children in class, boy or girls......

If this doesn't end with a conviction for Zimmerman there will be riots just like after the Rodney King beating. Either way Zimmerman's life is over.

His life isn't over...either is Casey Anthony's life. They could move to another country and no one would know who they are (for the most part). How many Hondurian "tot moms" can you think of, off the top of your head?

And those who riot will go to prison, justly. You can't riot as a lynch mob everytime something doesn't go your way. Either you want a justice system or you don't...no justice system is perfect. It'd be better if the state didn't hold a geographic monopoly on law...but that's another debate entirely.

Rodney King was a much bigger deal. We had video f cops beating a men half stupid for no good reason. He wasn't posing any threat to those pigs. How they weren't convicted boggles my mind to this day. And Trayvon is no Emmett Till. That kid was lynched for whistling (supposedly) at a white woman after the alleged "transgression" he "commited". The lynching did not occur when the incident took place...it happened at a later time in another place...he was sought out specifically to be lynched. Trayvon was shot (not lynched because of his race) by a half white half latino guy in a one on one confrontation that happened immediately at the scene.

There is no comparison with Till or King. To do so shows ignorance, or just how good race relations have gotten that we need to stretch the comparison to find such a "similarity".

BTW..if this is a white/black issue, since Zimmerman is half white, does that mean Obama is a racist white President continuing the drug war? Logically it would...hence why making this a black/white issue is not logical.

This case isn't about race. This case isn't about permits to carry guns, or laws that allow for self defense without fleeing when one feels their life is threatened. These are political footballs morons seek to make the case about out of selfish political reasons. This case is about one thing:

This one incident.

Fact...the person screaming for help could not be the person getting beaten up. If the GZ was on the bottom screaming for help each time TM hit him then there would have been some kind of change in the sound. Either the pitch would have changed or a scream would be cut off, but we do not hear that. What we do hear is the pitch change right before the shot like whoever was screaming for help was terrified to the point of almost not being able to speak. Like they just saw a gun and their balls got sucked up into their body.

Fact...GZ had 2 1/2 minutes to get back to the truck and did not.

Fact...Had GZ wanted to do anything like "talk" to TM he would have done so early into the call when TM went to check him out.

Fact...GZ should have taken his a$$ beating like a man.

Fact...Had GZ not had a gun I would bet $ that he would not have gotten out of his truck and chased after a 6 foot tall black athlete in the prime of his life. A 6 foot tall 17 year old white athlete would have beat his a$$ too.

Fact...fighting has been around before MMA.

Hi american,

Presume that Zimmerman's story is largely accurate. The evidence so far seems to support his claims. Are you seriously arguing that either one outcome, that of defending yourself, is murder and not self-defense, or that the other outcome, allowing yourself to be pummeled, is your obligation?

Is it sad that Martin is dead and that his parents and family will never be able to spend time with him again, except in their memories of him? Sure. Who would dispute such a sentiment. But how is it murder to kill someone attacking you who is of an old enough age to know better?

This is what happens when you have witnesses, they make errors and sometimes later remember (or forget) details. The fact that one person shot another is clear.

I wish each state would make laws governing what neighborhood watch can and can't do, but I do not think any of them should carry firearms.

Fact...the person screaming for help could not be the person getting beaten up. If the GZ was on the bottom screaming for help each time TM hit him then there would have been some kind of change in the sound.

Oh goodie, another amateur sonic forensics "expert".

Please stop, you have no clue what you're talking about.

I have no clue...lol. According to you all GZ was beat to within an inch of his life yet the scream NEVER changes until the end. Let me hit you in the face and I bet $ your scream will change, that is if you are still awake.

Fact...TM had a lighter, I wonder what he could have used that for if he did not smoke cigs? I mean just look at hippies those are some violent people there. The deductive power of some people is absolutely amazing.

so sick of hearing what a good guy the 17 year old was. why was he kicked out of school. pot in his system. out at night with a hoodie on. knowing there had been 18 break in,s there. and all black males. i dont agree with killing someone on neighborhood watch.!! but we wasnt there.!! i dont believe we know the whole true story. people have made this racist. even our president has. and ones like spike lee, and the black panthers should be arrested. if the white supermicst made remarks like spike lee did , and the black panthers the news would be all over it. especially msnbc.!! they are so one sided. spike lee tweeted and elderly couples home address to be zimmermans. the poor couple had to flee, scared for there lives. if this was reversed we would still be hearing it on the news.!! well when is justice going to be .... arrest spike lee, and the black panthers. sick of this freedom of speech crap.!!!

This is what happens when you have witnesses, they make errors and sometimes later remember (or forget) details

Any psychologist or cop will tell you, witness statements get less accurate over time, not more, as a general rule. It's not unusual for memory to be partly or completely inaccurate from the start, and only gets more inaccurate over time.

This is why cops rush to get witness statements immediately, and prosecutor's and defense attorneys "prep" witnesses before testifying by reminding them of their original statements.

Eye witnesses are the least valuable evidence one can have in a case...despite popular misconception. It's when there is a mass of witnesses with similar stories that something has any real weight. There are some mass agreed-on witness "facts" it appears, but very few of them.

Corey. What would Martin be guilty of? Fact is he was just walking back to his dad's girlfriend's house after a short trip to the store. This is undisputed. Martin was NOT breaking into homes. Martin had no stolen goods or burglary tools on him, also undisputed. Another undisputed fact is that Zimmerman was following him. Also that Zimmerman had no reason to be following Martin since Martin had every right to be on that street at that time and was doing nothing wrong. But the fact is also known that Zimmerman refused to stop fallowing Martin when told to. The excuse Zimmerman gave for this was that there had been break ins in the neighborhood and he expressed disgust that "they always get away with it", since he had pointed out that Martin was black we can put 2 + 2 together and come up with another fact. And that is Zimmerman was of the belief that the break ins were being committed by black youth and that because Martin was black he must be one of them. But Martin was not stealing. He in fact, was visiting with his dad and taking a short walk as explained already. He only had the bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea! Please explain what Martin would be guilty of. When you take all of the KNOWN FACTS the police have about this case, and look at them without prejudice, you will only be able to conclude that Zimmerman killed an innocent young man. I find it entirely possible that Martin would have fought back against Zimmerman when confronted with a gun. Would anyone like to explain why Martin should not have reacted in self defense when facing a crazed stranger holding a gun???? Corey??? Zimmerman has a violent past and had been on drugs. He was a firecracker with a short fuse and a nightmare waiting to happen to the Martin family. They want justice for their son. Why is that so difficult to understand?? In any other state than Florida or one of the other "stand your ground" states, Zimmerman would have been arrested and held and an investigation would have begun right away. The place of Martin's death would have been treated as a crime scene and secured. Zimmerman would then have been charged with FIRST DEGREE MURDER. Some of you still want to ignor all the FACTS I listed here. You can't be serious. If it were your loved one walking down your street and stalked then killed you'd be thinking differently. You'd want justice to be done.

so sick of hearing what a good guy the 17 year old was. why was he kicked out of school. pot in his system

And I'm sick of pro-drug war tyrants acting like impuning someone's character for engaging in an activity that is less harmful than over-eating is in any way relevant to the case. He has pot in his system..so the F what?

It's irrelevant to the case. It doesn't make you a "bad guy". It doesn't make you a "criminal" (for any sane standard of what crime is; crime = harm; crime /= non-compliance with unjust laws where no one else but willing participants are harmed). Also, there is no evidence he was high at that time...it stays in your system for 30 days. And EVEN IF he was high at the time, weed makes you LESS violent, not more.

The entire idea that him smoking weed has any relevance to this case shows a fundamental propaganda brainwashing on the part of those that bring it up.

As time passes memories fade, distortions creep in--especially under pressure from those who are preparing the prosecution. The details become less definite as aggressive interrogators ask leading questions out of the public eye. As noted above, eye witnesses are considered to be generally unreliable sources of information for these very reasons. A harsh and threatening questioner can get these people, unprepared as they are, to qualify their stories and fuzz over previously significant details.

All this chatter about witnesses, and witnesses changing their stories, is only going to help Zimmerman. Eye witnesses are notoriously inaccurate in recounting what occured, and eye witnesses who change their stories are of even less value. What will matter, ultimately, is whether Zimmerman can prove he was defending himself, which seems fairly clear even if you think he initiated the original contact, if and only if his SYG claim is rejected by the trial judge.

Zimmerman gets three bites at the apple, so to speak. He first will assert, properly, a SYG rationale. If the judge agrees then the case will be dismissed. If not, then Zimmerman gets to present evidence that the shot he fired was in self-defense. He merely needs to show that he was in fear for his life (the witnesses all seem to agree it was Zimmerman being pummeled), and that he did not initiate the altercation (no witness seems to argue Zimmerman began the fight). But even if both of those defenses fail, and both ought to succeed unless there is much more damning evidence the state has not yet revealed, then the state still must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted with depravity and disregard for human life in killing Martin. And there isn't ANY evidence, so far, this is true.

If you are inclined to riot when your legal demands are not met I suggest you get yourself ready to be gassed.

ps--there is ZERO chance that Yeah? is a practicing attorney in any criminal justice system. His claim that Zimmerman must prove his innocence else he should be found guilty violates every fundamental basis of our jurisprudential system.

According to you all

See this is called ingroup/outgroup psychology...you're suffering from what is called black and white thinking...a symptom of psychosis. Don't worry, all the fans of DemoCrips and RepubliBloods suffer from this symptom of psychosis as well..the whole country is in a mass psychosis.

But I'm not "them" and you aren't "us". We're individuals...so stop acting like you or I are apart of some Borg collective mind. I'm an individual, and I expect to be judged on the content of my character...not anyone elses. So don't label me "you guys" again, or I'll consider you delusional. I never said most (if any) of the things you asserted "you all" said.

And you're playing amateur forensics audio "expert" and are not an expert in the field...so you actually don't know what you're talking about. Admit it, or be delusional, I could care less. You say "FACT" followed by amateur conjecture. I could easily do the same nonsense:

"FACT : the guy on bottom in a fight is always the one yelling for help"

But that isn't a fact, nor am I an expert on street fight behavior or pleas for help in combat...so it's BS for me to call that a "FACT".

See how that works? It's called LOGIC. It's a branch of philosophy. Try it out, you might find it useful.

welly well well- looks like the so-called witnesses eyes are turning rather brown all of a sudden. The prosecution boat is taking on more water. Matter of time before it sinks and GZ becomes a 'not-so-free man'. Maybe he can find a nice South American country to take up residence in.

TM had a lighter, I wonder what he could have used that for if he did not smoke cigs?

Probably weed, but who cares...it's irrelevant.

Let me tell you what else you can do with a lighter when you don't smoke...you place it in the palm of your hand and ball your fist around it and punch someone...it makes the impact of the punch much harder and it does more damage.

You didn't grow up in the 'hood, did you? I did, I carried a lighter in each pocket until I was 12...then I got my first pistol.

Bic lighters are ideal, BTW. Nice round form fitting shape. Nice hard, thick plastic.

BTW..I'm not suggesting that's why Trayvon has the lighter...just pointing out your specualtion is just..speculation. It's not a "FACT".

FACT: Anyone filling their posts with the word fact, needs to replace it with the word OPINION.

FACT: Anyone filling their posts with the word fact, needs to replace it with the word OPINION.

Winnerrrrrrrrrrrrr!

When Zimmerman is found not guilty the @!$%#'s gonna hit the fan. I feel really sorry for anyone living in or close to an urban area.

Wow Britt, don't hurt yourself reaching soooo far out with that one!

Just realizing now after reading over Ms. Cutcher statement the following comment, “from the distance I could not tell the color of his skin. I also could not tell if he was trying to find something in his pockets”. When I initially read this I thought she meant GZ was looking for something in his own pocket. But now it makes perfect sense why, after he ‘frisked’ Trayvon’s body(which he certainly had no business doing!), he stepped back, put his hands to his head…then walks back over to look at the body, realizing in that very moment, “OH SH^T, I dun F’d UP NOW!”

After looking at the body for few mins, he walks away toward the road but the cops showed up…I wonder, if for a split second he thought about fleeing, but then remembered he was one that initiated first 911 call. Delusions of grandeur out the window…no news headlines to read, “NW Captain, a Hero! Shoots armed criminial!”

Bundgaard-1210892

We do know what happened, this "apprentice" police man shot and killed the other man/boy, for no other reason than to please his friends with guns!!--That is why he was not even arrested for a month!

And we now can see that even an apprentice police man apparently can get away with this, like real ones about 1000 times a year!--We are in the USA, where anyone with a FREEDOM gun has his killer rights, according to his wishes!--I have no idea why we have a court system, that is just a joke as well, where everyone is coached to get the "opinion" the leaders/money of the trials want!--Just look at the donations!

It is this type of person that will a juror on this case and that is a shame since this person has no idea what the hell they are talking about. It is people that can not form a thought without you saying WTF are they talking about. It are these people that serve on our juries for all kinds of cases everyday. That is where the Justice system is flawed if you can not make any sense when talking you should not be able to have someones life in their hands.

When someone like "Tired" says that Zimmerman had an obligation to die that night and that he should "take it like a man," I am not inclined to believe any other "facts" he might claim.

Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable in the world. I wonder how many more times they will change their stories.

All of this is completely transparent: wannabe-Birchers, wannabe-KKKers, random bigots, and more than few of the more psychotic gun nuts all think Zimmerman should get off. Before he was finally arrested, they all thought he should not have been arrested. They all have exactly the same reason, and none of them can make a case for their opinions using the rationales they are forced to use. One of them came up with the absolutely brilliant opinion that it was Martin's fault because he was wearing a hoodie.

Think of it this way: If Zimmerman had been followed by Martin, got shot by Martin, and ended up dead, they'd be screaming for a lynching tomorrow at sunrise.

Yes TM had a right to walk in the street. GZ also had the right to check him out and make sure he belonged there. I do that for a living.

For the person talking about having to prove self defence. You only have to prove all aspects of self defence to avoid the trial. Once it goes to trial the burden of proof solely rests on the prosecution. What would be the point of a trial if he could prove it was self defence.

Zimmerman went hunting. He chased down another man while carrying a legal firearm an altercation happened and Zimmerman shot and killed his target.

Are we promoting chasing people down at night because we have a feeling? I hope not, maybe it will be your kid next.

I see this case completely different than others.

I am surprised no one said its TM fault for not being armed.

@Pvblivs

Tired is a thug just like Tryvon, He's mad that someone didn't put up with their bull crap and defended their self.

@ProIndividual-3906907

Sorry man but Pot is illegal since its not legal. so technically he was a criminal.

but that's my opinion, hopefully Zimmermen gets a fair trial but chances are he wont because of the racist blacks that started all this crap and turned it from a guy shooting a child into a white killing a black.
(and Tired, I bet you $$ if you hit me in the face, you gonna get a bullet to the chest just like Tryvon did)

@Yeah,

Yeah we're all doctors who possess multiple PHD's in legal studies on the internet.

At no point in time does the burden of proof rely on the defendant in a criminal trial. The burden of proof is always on the prosecution. That your even attempting to argue this shows your trial knowledge stops at the last CSI, L&O you watched.

Ultimately the prosecution must prove that GZ had an intent to kill prior to the engagement happening otherwise it's just manslaughter. Before they can do that they must defeat the self defense claim which is itself backed by their own SYG law.

In order to convict the prosecution needs to convince ALL of a jury the two following.

#1 GZ was not defending himself against an attacker

#2 GZ had an intent to kill prior to engaging in the altercation with TM.

They got a snow balls chance in hell of proving either of those, much less proving both. They know this already, that's why they went for Murder 2. Their case is weak and will most likely be acquitted, to protect the Governors and all the other politicians collective a$$'s they will try on a change with the term "Murder" in it.

I hope Zimmerman gets off like he should as it was self-defense. the Prosecutions case is falling apart because the witnesses keep changinmg theitr tune. I wonder how many more tunes we'll hear before the case starts. Everyone's playing the armchair lawyer here....why not let the case run it's course then when he is found not guilty then you can weigh-in on how unfair it is and Martin didn't get justice...whatever...whatever....cue the violin music

I hope he gets off with this and then we'll see how the Black 'community' reacts....you know, the peaceful Black 'community' the ones that put out a bounty on Zimmerman Dead or Alive....the same peaceful Black 'community' that tweeted WRONG the address of where Zimmerman supposedly lived the same peaceful Black 'community' that will accept the outcome of the case, only if it goes their way and if not they will act like they cannot help and react violently and stupidly. If he is freed and the Black 'community' reacts in violence and destruction I hope the National Guard is brought in with shoot-to-kill orders for all rioters, anything less is unacceptable.

Are you another one of these wannabee cops that cant pass the psych test , someday you will check out the wrong person and she will slap the piss out of you

Here are a few things I'd like to know....if anyone keeping up can tell me I'd appreciate:

1. Have the break ins in the neighborhood ceased?

2. If Zimmerman hunted down Trayvon as many says he did, how was it that Zimmerman wound up with cuts on the back of his head, and a broken nose?

3. If Travon was suspended from school for drugs/paraphanelia, why was he allowed to be walking at night in the neighborhood, rather than be grounded, with cell phone taken away, and being given a heavy dose of chores?

4. If government appointed officials, voted for the "Stand Your Ground" law, then why are those very people judging Zimmerman, saying he had no right to shoot?

5. Why has The New Black Panther Party been able to place a bounty on Zimmermans' head, and nobody taking legal action against that?

This is what confuses me....why aren't we finding out if the break ins have stopped? Why aren't we holding Trayvon's parents lawfully accountable for not disciplining their child? Had he been properly disciplined by his parents, like grounding, he would probably not have been able to walk the streets at night, thus would have prevented Trayvon's ability to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

And if a government official votes for a law, and it is passed, then why aren't they standing up for what they claim is a law that protects the people? Why are these officials making this about race? And why are we allowing The New Black Panther Party to discriminate on radio, saying that all whites are bad people and since "they took one of ours, now we must take one of theirs".... how is that not a deathly threat?

My biggest concern, and something we seem to be missing is that we, as parents, have the responsibility to keep a close eye on what our kids are doing.....there is no reason why Trayvon should have been allowed to be out at night. A parent is a parent....and as a parent of four kids, I know where my kids are, and even at 17, if they messed up (like being suspended from school), then you can bet your ASS, that my child would be grounded....they would have a TON of chores to do, and they would be going to drug counseling....my child would not have been shot, that child would be bitchin' cause their cell phone was taken away.....my child would still be alive.

Have we as a society just lost all thought of accountability.....especially to our own flesh and blood? And this isn't about race, this is about doing the right things in the first place! I am so sad for Trayvon, and so sad for Zimmerman. It didn't have to get this far.

It boils down to discipline, love, law, and accountability....not race! Let's use our heads people!

Thanks

Which will sell more; the Country Western version of this story or the Rap version... sing it boys.

It's plain to see where this is headed. Unfortunately Zimmerman hasn't got a prayer.

All you people out there with your theories and logic--they don't mean squat. All that matters is what is brought up in the courtroom. If witnesses' stories are changing then those witnesses will probably be worthless (it'll introduce doubt on both sides) and it's all going to boil down to what Zimmerman's side says. In other words, does the prosecution catch him in some kind of inconsistency, etc. Martin isn't around to give his side. No one in this life is perfect but Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. Good luck proving it. Kinda like the O.J. trial. In my opinion, O.J. was guilty but they didn't prove it or the jury didn't want to believe he was guilty. What might hurt Zimmerman is if some on the jury don't want to believe he's innocent.

Whats with the posts threatening violence if Zimmerman is not convicted? In all "urban" areas? Yes because guns are more illegal there for the law abiding citizens to defend themselves and these people know they can act like the animals they are. What a bunch of babies. Did you riot when OJ got off? Or are you just racist brats that feel its ok to get a new TV or beat an innocent person of a particular color because something did not go your way in your pathetic minds? If these needless "riots" continue in these cases I predict a lot more of the "oppressed" criminal rioters will be slaughtered in the streets by the people they will be trying to terrorize. Legally in self-defense. And remember it only takes 1 juror to say innocent in these cases as well.

JoeCal,

I hope it doesn't come down to a guilty verdict, just because of race. I dont understand why people can't follow the law.

"JoeCal", You are just as shallow as those statements if you think this is anything like the Rodney King incident. This guy is a "wannabe" cop not a real cop. we all didn't tear up our neighborhoods, just those in the South Central LA area did that. It's pretty funny how cowardly all you people try to evoke the spirit of fear that all black people are going to riot. 1 person said that a few weeks ago in the comments about this case and now so many of you keep bringing it up as if you think you can try reverse psychology to get Black people to do exactly what you think they will do. I don't think so dude! Black folks aren't dumb and aren't going to fall for the baiting that all you poser posters are trying to invoke into their actuality. The only thing that even the Black leaders asked for was that GZ be treated just as all the other "Stand your Ground" defendants were treated. Every last one was arrested, given the option for bail and tried. Some were found not guilty and others found guilty. no one on here is going to fall for your idiotic statements that blacks are going to riot nationwide or even locally in Sanford because you say they will.

"Son-of-Anulbis" It wasn't the "Black" community that did these things just individuals and in the Case of the LA riots it was only South central LA not all Black communities across the U.S. Only an idiot like you would take the actions of an individual and blame it on a whole population...how dumb is that? You hope for Blacks to do what your cowardly self would only wish you could do.

If one spouse disappears they will ask the other spouse to take a lie detector test to check out his/her story. Why didn't they ask Zimmerman to submit to a polygraph test to prove his side of the story since the other person cannot contradict his version of what really happened. If he refused then there should be doubt as to the verity of his story so therefore should be subject further investigation. If he had passed the polygraph test it would have been the end of the story.

It has been my theory that Zimmerman chased down Martin because he told the girlfriend on the phone that he wasn't running. He would walk fast but not run. (Besides running makes a person look guilty) Zimmerman pursued Martin because the scene of the shooting was between two rows of homes hundreds of feet from Zimmerman's vehicle (news reports here in central Florida) which indicates that Zimmerman lied about being attacked by his vehicle. When Zimmerman "tackled" Martin he suffered abrasions from hitting his head on the sidewalk so as they shuffled on the ground Zimmerman pulls out his gun and shoots Martin because Martin was not as easy as first thought. Now this is my theory that fits the evidence of Zimmerman saying these """"" always get away while informing the 9/11 dispatcher that he was following Martin. Although Zimmerman said OK when the dispatcher told him he didn't need to do that, the evidence points to Zimmerman not only pursuing Martin but confronting him in an aggressive manner. (Witness now says one man was running) If Martin did punch Zimmerman, (ring finger) he had just as much right to defend himself as Zimmerman said he was doing.

What would you have done as a 17 year old if someone you didn't know stopped his vehicle and was stalking you after dark? Not knowing if the man intended to do you harm. Run?? Stop and confront him? Or whimper down and the ground and ask the Lord to protect you? Martin chose to walk fast but it cost him his life. It's easy to say what Martin or Zimmerman should have done but the fact is Martin is dead and Zimmerman is walking with a story that is so full of holes it wouldn't hold jello.

LOL, Phineas J - look up the phrase "cognitive dissonance" then try that post again, dude. You might also rent "Forrest Gump"; he has some great advice for you on the correlation between stupidity and activity.

Corey's right

@Ophotfoot

No, it takes all 12 of the jurors to say innocent or guilty. One juror can cause a "hung jury" which in some cases is not a bad idea.

It will come down to who threw the first punch, and since Z's injuries are documented and fit his version, and Martin didnt have a mark on him, its obvious who struck first, and Z has just as much right to defend himself against an attack as Martin does.

Why are the "numbered" witnesses changing their story re: Zimmerman and Martin?

Because they do not know what happened either. Maybe they wanted the Media's attention, or did not get paid for their story..

After all is said and done, the Trial Over, Zimmerman may spend a few months in jail, because there is such pressure on him by everyone who wants to believe it was a premeditated murder. The other Civil Right Leaders behind all this, want to make a statement--why does the US need a Racial or Hatred Statement "again". No one will forget Sharpton/Jesse Jackson--they are always worried about how they will be forgotten. Where's Farrakhan in this?

Zimmerman will be put up there as the "Example".

Nothing comes of putting these people like Zimmerman in jail. The Racial Issue is always front and center here in the US---even if there is an incident that doesn't warrant the accusation.

Sharpton and Rev Jackson need to move on---to the present, not the past like the 60's. Who believes them anymore. They are in it for the $$$$---for self-promotion, trying to keep Black People further down the ladder. Otherwise they would not have a job to do.

Black People have come so far these days, education, racial intermarriage accepted, Politicians, Lawyers, Doctors, and a Black President. Having a Black President is the ultimate success.

There is a LOT of pressure on the witnesses in this case from several sources, starting with Sharpton and gang interviewing them then on to the special prosecutor etc.. We have know idea how many of these "witnesses" have had their homes, families, livelyhoods and their own lives threatened if the outcome of their testimony doesn't = the prosecutions and the Revs' and the Martin family's notion of justice. This whole thing has been blown up into a black/white racial issue wich is far from truth of the matter. But, you got the media, the Revs', the panthers and other racial groups pandering to the nation and especially to Martin's family to draw attention to themselves and their causes. If you were to take an HONEST poll of what many people think of calling a hispanic male "white" you'd have a whole new media circus to promote. How about we get over the bs speculations and let the courts do their jobs?? Isn't that what the family said they wanted in the first place????? So, let the courts deal and stop trying to influence the potential jurors.

I bet you that the witnesses with visited by punks in hoodies. Of course we and not allowed to mention the race of the visitor otherwise we will be accused of be raciest.

You 'FACT' finders are forgetting the one fact that many ignore here: NO ONE has all of the facts. Less than half of what the DA and Defense Attny has found is actually out for public consumption. Surmise all you want: but there are a LOT of bloody holes in your 'facts' that you use to arrive at your assumptions. Assumptions that do not really rely on the totality of the facts are usually wrong. If the assumptions are wrong, then logic would dictate that the conclusions are not likely to be very good.

Some here claim that only the jury will have all of the facts: actually - even they might not have them, depending on what is quashed and deemed 'inadmissable' and kept from the jury.

Because of all of this, it really isn't worth revisiting this story until there is something (more compelling than witness testimony) that was previoulsy unknown (doubtful) or the attnys rest and there is a verdict. EVEN SO -and regardless of whichever way it goes - that still doesn't mean that anyone will have the 'facts' in the end. At the core: An aquittal or a guilty verdict may entirely depend on which side was able to suppress and/or introduce more evidence than the other and who was able to turn the jury's feelings more their way.

Funny how all of a sudden witnesses are changing their stories.....I smell a rat....can you say pay off the witnesses from Martin's side? What a joke. I hope Zimmerman wins and is found not guilty.

Larry-2260635

See wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back

For all of you spouting facts, the only fact that matters in this unfortunate incident is that a young man is dead. Instead of walking away or waiting for the authorities another young man decided to take action. This is the fatal error in this tale. Zimmerman wasn't protecting anyone or anything, he may have thought he was but he was 100% in error. All other actions resulted from Zimmerman's poor judgement. All of you immortals out there have no concept of death or forever.

"It's a hell of a thing killing a man, you take away all he's got and all he'll ever have".

William Munny

Larry:

Why didn't they ask Zimmerman to submit to a polygraph test to prove his side of the story since the other person cannot contradict his version of what really happened.

According to at least one of the posters on these threads, he took and passed a lie detector test. I admit that that's not the sort of thing that msnbc, wanting a lynch mob, would publish.

You may not necessarily like the New Black Panthers but you must admit they are the most efficient organization since the Brown Shirts.

Pvblivs, thanks for the info on the lie detector test. Yes, MSNBC is so biased in this case it is sickening. Incredible for a news organization. Walter Cronkite where are you?

Have you seen those pics of Trayvon from his Facebook page? He's flippin' the bird to the camera (in stereo) and he looks mean as a snake. He didn't look like that little angel he was at age 12.

Of course that picture is not of Trayvon! Check Michelle Malkins "twitchy" website, where they admit its not him!

The best way to convince me that those pictures are not of young Mr. Martin would be for msn.com to realease actual pictures of him at 17 -- not at 12. Until then, they do not dispute that those pictures are of young Mr. Martin.

Your opinion of who is in the picture is of no consequence. The picture is the picture. Something about this reminds me of the "Birther Idiocy". They too had some theory, some touch of lunacy, which could not be satisfied either. No matter what was asked for, provided, confirmed - verified viewed by their own representatives - there still remain deniers.

Is there any consistancy in the Ultra-right?

Headscrather, I agree with you. Let's hope that there are people on the jury who can look at the evidence and not be swayed by prejudice.

Phineas, how your argument follows from what I said, I have no clue. Possibly you have an agenda and are sensitive about any arguments that make you feel uncomfortable. It is individuals who have agendas that we need to keep off the jury.

You may not necessarily like the New Black Panthers but you must admit they are the most efficient organization since the Brown Shirts

Comparied to the "old KKK" The New BPP hasn't even gotten out of the diaper wearing stage yet? The KKK, was so good, they had "open" members in Congress and several "suspected" members, sympathizers - associates elected to the highest offices of the Executive Branch.

The Facade of equality remained after the Civil war, but, by deed and custom - nothing was done to limit the atrocities through out the country, North as well as the South.

Lets not get too free with the False Praise, there were way better Candidates for the Award you are offering. Burn a few Church, Rape a few babies, Pull a few White men who married "out of their race" and beat them to death in the streets ---- then the depths of their Terroistic intentions will be worthy of notice.

So far, they are nothing but braggards - with little to no real support. It takes a genuine atmosphere of privlidge, exclusivity and disregard for human life to Mature into the Satanic Halls of shame you are prematurely allowing them to acsend.

Give it at least 30 - 40 years or so - if they are still around... Then nominate them again.

MSgt.... eye witness accounts are about as reliable as tits on a bull, or REMF's of military fame.

XD, seems the witnesses were very important in your defense of GZ a few months ago! Remember "John"?
Oh, I forgot, you don't take sides.....

I think Trayvon had it coming...........

Xd, go re-read your posts!

This looks like witness tampering. The witnesses are afraid to speak the truth. The truth helps Zimmerman and various agents are stepping in to threaten and ruin lives for anyone who says something that doesn't help get a conviction.

Ret_MSgt says

Are you trying to change the conversation because you know Zimmerman will be found guilty? Are you afraid to face the fact the Zimmerman took a life and will not be held accountable?

Just another confirmation that more stripes doesn't necessarily mean more smarts.

Well buying this is being stupid again. Jo-an Please make sure you know what happened before you ever open your mouth about anything involved with this case. And denver you get a thumbs up.

zimmerman will serve time either way, either in jail or in the streets end of story

Evil never Win

hey ret MSgt:

Don't worry we all mis speak so the white judges of the world will try to convince us. We have a white presidential candidate that misspeaks all the time, so he says???? But, white judges would never bring that up! What say ye The White Judge????

Charles If you think my name means I'm a controlling racist thug you're wrong. (My name is from a game I played a while back). And when did we start to bring politics into this? Only if it's actually relivent though.

Hey Denver are you jealous? So I misspoke and that makes you smarter? If that is all it take to make you feel better about yourself man are you shallow.

I hate to repeat myself, but what the heck:

All of this is completely transparent: Birchers, KKKers, random bigots, and a big bunch of the more psychotic gun nuts all think Zimmerman should get off. Before he was finally arrested, they all thought he should not have been arrested. They all have exactly the same reason, and none of them can make a case for their opinions using the rationales they are forced to use.

One of them came up with the absolutely brilliant opinion that it was Martin's fault because he was wearing a hoodie.

Think of it this way: If Zimmerman had been followed by Martin, got shot by Martin, and ended up dead, they'd be screaming for a lynching tomorrow at sunrise.

And you wonder why people are wrongfully convicted? It's an example of the game you play in first grade, you whisper in the ear to the right and by the time it gets back to the person on the left, it's a story about unicorns from space.

but am I wrong? LMAO.

I don't know, but it seems to me that changing and contradicting accounts raises more questions than answers. As well as creates more room doubt. I f I was the defense I would be questioning those 4 witnesses hard to find out why if they lied at first, that they lied, then charge them with obstruction of justice. Or find out if their new answers were co erst, and if so who pushed them into the new answer. To point out this one point there are major differences just with in the testimonies, can any one say "Reasonable Doubt" ...Sure you can, but who wants a court system that actually assumes innocence especially in this case that would have the whole country throw out that precept. At watching how this story unfolded, I would be more willing to believe that the witnesses were threatened (lets not forget that The new black panthers called for the death of Zimmerman), than I am willing to believe that the witnesses originally tried to obstruct justice.

lckmibills: your the one that needs to be sucker punched, with such a dumb, ignorant remark.

Innocent until proven guilty?Nope not by a bunch of people that don't know the law or the facts of the case.

I am pretty sure that is a sign of ignorance.

My guess is witnesses are so tainted now by the bullying tactics of the "social justice" crowd that any credibility they may have had is now in the ol' @!$%#teree.

I find it both depressing and interesting how this has become a racial fight rather than a quest for actual justice. No one in this nation cares about facts any more, we just take sides based on the color of our skin.

We are no further along in race relations than we were 100 years ago. Both sides are at fault. Again, depressing. And some other people we have to thank for this is the media, both right and left, who love to dowse flames with gasoline and sensationalize everything. We don't have news anymore, just entertainment.

You guys do realize that they didnt really change their stories as much as they made them worthless as witness testimony.

I dont think I could be vaguer about something I saw.

I also, and I mean no disrespect just making an observation, that when this was a normal, albeit tragic, shooting in a middle class neighborhood witnesses came forward as normal. Once the "black community" got involved it became more like a shooting in a black neighborhood. Witnesses recanting testimony, making very vague stories.

So whats the deal? Is it common place for their to be violent repercussions on witnesses? Have they made dozens of movies discussing what I just described?

Im just amazed that Zimmerman's plan of finding a black youth and getting him to jump on him worked out so well. What patience it must take to let someone bash your head into pavement before getting your victim in the right distance and angle. Letting some unknown person get his hands on the gun before finally pulling the trigger.

This Zimmerman is up there with the Manson and Jack the Ripper. Truly deserving of hate crime designation and profiling.....

Amazing this comes from the same people that released a baby killer.

Pvblivs said

"This looks like witness tampering. The witnesses are afraid to speak the truth. The truth helps Zimmerman and various agents are stepping in to threaten and ruin lives for anyone who says something that doesn't help get a conviction"

It does look like witness tampering. It looks like Zimmerman or his daddy paid or threatened those folks to lie in the first place. People recant their testimony all the time once they realize they were wrong or realize they will go to jail for telling a lie on the witness stand.

So Chris minutes after the shooting Zimmerman and his daddy lined the pockets of witnesses. That is what you are saying?

Yeah, see, this is why witness testimony should be treated as bull@!$%#. The more witnesses you get, I suppose if they have similar accounts, you could say there is a higher statistical likelihood that they account is correct, or has fewer errors.

But people are imperfect, police questioning is often anything but impartial and unbiased (studies show that lineups are some of the most fallacious methods of identification in most cases, unless conducted properly i.e. double-blinded), and the brain is a really funny thing. It can go back and put memories in that weren't there. Because the brain is not some continuously-operating mechanism that simply records information as it processes. There's a whole different world inside our heads, and it's kind of scary how much of that world @!$%#s itself up because different parts fight with each other.

I don't know whether or not George Zimmerman will be found guilty. Personally, I think he should be, because he disobeyed police instructions and that led directly to a confrontation that could easily have been avoided. Not only that, but as I understand it, since Martin was running away (shot in the back), he was retreating from the encounter, and the stand your ground law (I believe) states that once the confrontation is over and there is no more imminent danger, self-defense no longer applies. But I'll wait for the facts.

The one thing I do know - the bastard should have been arrested immediately. It is not up to the police to allow a suspect to go free based on his claim of self defense. That is for a judge to decide, not a cop.

I read the initial story but forgot what I read, then looking at it again it seemed different so I didn't really understand what I thought I read so my nephews neighbor's mother told me what happened and I'll stick with that. I swear.

Yes, we only give a crap what color the granddad is if we are talking about slavery or money... don't you know that???

FYI Janstince - "disobeyed police instructions"

Please enlighten us when he disobeyed police instructions? are you referring to the 911 dispatcher? They are no more police than you are I.

"(shot in the back)," Are you even aware of the case we are talking about?

"arrested immediately" You do know the police brought him into jail that night?

Ignorance is not bliss and in your case it makes you look real dumb.

Hey awesomealex As far as your opinion of me, it is just like arzeholes everyone has one and they all stinks. You too must need to go around trying to insult people in order to feel good about yourself. However, just so you know I will continue to post here and everywhere I feel like it. Now go play with yourself somewhere and let adults make comments here.

Janstince: You had me in your corner until I got to the part where you said you understand Martin was shot in the back...that's simply not true. It was a chest wound at close range. Other than that, I agree with the rest of your assessment of the situation.

What's going to be really difficult to determine is whether the witness' original stories, or the revised versions, are closer to the truth. Even so, the eywitness testimony is contradictory: One says Martin was on top, one says Zimmerman was on top. The next item for investigation is the reason behind changing their stories. Were they threatened by one "side" or the other? Has money changed hands? If I were on the jury, I would have "reasonable doubt" that either version of the stories these witnesses are telling is 100% actual and truthful.

I, too, would change my story if I thought Spike Lee and others of his ilk were going to put a hit out on me.

When Zimmerman is found not guilty the jurors and witnesses will all probably need to move and/or hire personal bodyguards...sad but true.

And the verdict goes to - Zimmerman on points.

Remember, the State still has the burden of proof. Once Zimmerman makes the afirmitive defence of self-defense then the burden again shifts to the State to disprove the self-defense claim and they will not be able to do that with a well-qualified and impartial jury.

I so wish we could all stop collapsing comments just because we don't like them! Very frustrating trying to follow a line of debate!

Anyway...Pvblivs, I agree. There's so much speculation and outright falsehoods flying around that it would be difficult to imagine someone NOT being affected by it and becoming confused or frightened. I'd be reluctant to put very much stock in anything these witnesses are saying. We know literally nothing right now that can lead us to cut and dried conclusion and anyone that thinks they do is loopey!

Tom-Plymouth...good point...well made

Tom - Plymouth -

Firstly, he did disobey a standing order by the police in the instructions of the Neighborhood Watch program - primarily, the members of the Watch are not to engage suspects themselves, merely to keep watch and call the police if a suspect is identified. Nowhere in there will you find anything about confronting possibly armed and dangerous people. So yes, he did disobey a police order.

I had read somewhere that he had been shot in the back. My mistake, should have verified. However, I don't buy the close-range argument, which still makes my point valid. Martin was unarmed, he was most likely at medium range (possibly 6-10 feet) according to the coroner. Facing toward or away, the fight was most likely over unless Zimmerman wished it to continue. And, if that is in fact the case, then Zimmerman should be found guilty of murder and not be able to apply for self-defense. Because of the way the law is written.

Also, I was unaware that he was arrested. He certainly wasn't arraigned or put under house arrest until the special prosecutor got involved. The part I read was that the police took him to the hospital, but no charges were laid against him, and he was allowed to go home. If they took him to the station and released him, that would still be equally unlawful. He should have been charged, and bail would be set by a judge before releasing him to home arrest or a relative's custody. That's the way the law is supposed to work. The cops don't get to enforce it selectively, though they do all the time.

So, please, enlighten me. And learn the law.

Edit: Also, the law states that force should be met with only enough force to prevent injury or harm. If Martin was not threatening with deadly force (i.e. no weapon), then what business did Zimmerman have in shooting? Threatening to shoot would most likely have been sufficient. Remember, once the fight is over, any argument of self-defense goes away. There is no middle ground.

The law also states that an aggressor cannot use the self-defense law. If Zimmerman started the fight, he is guilty of murder regardless of what happened afterwards. Period.

Tom, innocent until proven guilty applies to both sides in a legal dispute where actions are a justification for some kind of physical altercation. Most of the argument for or against both Martin and Zimmerman took place when Zimmerman was not even going to be arrested period; justice was not being carried out correctly. Now that he has been and he is now standing trial I think most people are waiting to see what happens and just regurgitating what has been said since April. Sure there are a few that still say they think this or that but I do not think they are in the majority.

XD, seems the witnesses were very important in your defense of GZ a few months ago! Remember "John"?
Oh, I forgot, you don't take sides.....

That "Friend"... was so obviously a mercenary that it was actually painful to watch him on TV. His validity, wasn't even rehearsed enough to pass the tests of Favorable interviews on "Faux News". He was torn to shreds, on National TV by every syndicated source he had the huevoes to appear.

I hope he got paid well, cause anywhere "Mr. Oliver" goes in future ... he'll be known as the "Step'in Fetchit" of 2012. His name is "MUD", his deeds were despicable - eventually even The Zimmermann's had to disavow his unsolicited, "assistance".

Wasn't his name "Joe Oliver"... a common mistake, John, Joe. Easy to make, people routinely self correct the difference when reading. Don't even consciously notice it.

Oliver said he stepped forward to join the team because in his words, Sonner was inexperienced in dealing with the media, and Oliver, a former news anchor with NBC affiliate WESH in Orlando, who also worked for CNN, “was aware of what the media storm that was brewing was going to be like, having had 20 plus years experience both local and network. As a friend, acquaintance — however you or anybody else wants to define it — it was my obligation to offer my expertise to his counsel in dealing with the media.”

Oliver characterized his assistance to Zimmerman’s team as “pro bono,” saying, “I didn’t’ make any money off this. I didn’t expect or intend to get paid. This was all intended to help someone who had no media experience, especially in the media they had to deal with,” referring to Sonner.

Oliver called the hiring of co-counsel “preparing for the worst,” though he insisted that he and Zimmerman’s team “all feel very confident that there will be no charges.”

“And so now that it’s become public that Craig has co-counsel on this, in case there’s a trial, it’s easy for me to pass this on because [Uhrig] actually has a staff that can be more efficient about getting information to” the media.

“This now allows me to go back to my job, which I was never fired from and never quit.”

Joe started out lying and got worse at it as time went on.

Oliver said he wanted to know if it was okay to “speak on George’s behalf,” and he wanted to reassure himself that he would be doing the right thing if he did so.

And he said he wanted to quell the notion that Zimmerman’s killing of Trayvon Martin, 17, was a “racial incident.”

Oliver said he has known Zimmerman since the 28 year old began dating his now-wife, whose mother is friends with Oliver’s wife. In his initial television appearances, including on MSNBC, he was introduced as a friend, not a media adviser, though Oliver insists he made his role clear from the start. After an appearance on MSNBC’s The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Oliver admitted that he and Zimmerman were co-workers, and O’Donnell, with New York Times columnist Charles Blow and Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart strongly questioned how well he actually knew Zimmerman personally.

What do you mean "he isn't black?" Zimmerman's grandfather is black.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.americanclarion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Zimmerman_Grandfather_sm2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.americanclarion.com/7814/2012/05/17/information-wrong-inaccurate-public-conviction-george-zimamerman/&h=219&w=324&sz=40&tbnid=gsJWC46_M-9omM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=119&zoom=1&usg=__s9CbopTpqAutcGOZIj-j2ei74KM=&docid=V5ZSnD60lpasKM&itg=1&sa=X&ei=VFa8T8qSE4e69QSvuZxJ&ved=0CGMQ9QEwAw&dur=5955

Let's all use common sense. The only reason these people are changing their stories is out of fear. If they come out and say something that helps Zimmerman, then the moronic Panthers, or someone else will attack them. Spike Lee may even give out their addresses. What happened is a tragedy. But I doubt he will get a fair trial. And if he is found not guilty or pleas to lesser charges, there are gonna be people who will act out of anger.

Its amazing how clear a person can be at the scene, but they arent exactly sure now. Granted I wouldnt want to live my life looking over my shoulder, having rocks thrown at my house, and my kids beaten up on a daily basis at school.

This story just gets better and better when exposing our broken justice system.

I wonder if Spike Lee took it upon himself to visit the "Retreat". You dont need to directly threaten people when they all live in the same community and have to drive through the same gate. I can imagine the choice slogans on display outside that gate.

NOT GUILTY!

Cheri I dont think there will be a trial or jury, this kinda changes things in that the whittnesses changed their stories based on who they talked to. That currupts and discredits their testimony. I smell an aquittal or dropped charges.

Actually, and I have no idea if this is true, but all they really need to do is station five 6'5" black panthers outside the gate with one holding a sign saying, "Are you as guilty as Zimmerman?", and I bet all of the witnesses will come up with stories detailing Zimmerman hunting Trayvon Elmer Fudd style.

Julian in Dallas, the most racist people in this country are black and worst yet, are allowed to get away with it.

People liike YOU are pathetic, you hide behind excuses while the truth is slapping you in the face. The Black Panthers put out a bounty for this man, Spike Lee tweeted an address that he thought belonged to Zimmerman. These are FACTS not conspriacy theories. Sorry that the facts are ruining your day.

Julian,

It doesnt matter what the witnesses said or didnt say. The 911 calls and the forensic evidence is all that matters.

Also, I would like to point out that no one and I mean NO ONE, will care what you have to say beyond the "White Racist" part of your rant. You have been landed, like a big stupid fish, by the hate generated on the first days of this tragedy. The only BLACK individual from your post that didnt have anything to do with it is Obama. He only, unwittingly, backed the hate crowd because of those stupid pictures put forth by the media. Little adorable 13 year old Trayvon could be Obama's son, 17 year old gold toothed thugged up Trayvon..... crickets.....

You need to take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you could be so gullible.

Julian, are you saying the Black Panthers haven't put out a bounty? Are you also saying Spike Lee didn't try to give out Zimmerman's address? Are you trying to say PBO didn't stick his nose in this case?

Because if you are you are WRONG, ignorant, and maybe are in need of some help for your anger and hatred.

Innocent until proven guilty is the American way!

I am so tired of the media making "news". Let the justice system do it's job and also report about the white couple that were attacked by a group of African-Americans. If you are going to report it report it ALL!!!

@Demar.....Your kidding RIGHT????? The most racist people in America are Black?? Where you been for the last 400 years of American history? Black People REACT to racism, white RACISTs perpetuated hatred, murder, and violence for centuries all across America for hundreds of years! Oh, and if your waiting for the Balck Panthers to show up, it's not going to happen!!

Conspiracy theorists = hilarious! I seem to remember one of the witnesses parents complaining that the police lead her son when they took his statement. Given that, I'm not really surprised that the stories are changing.

Here's the thing. It's not that eye witness testimony is unreliable, but when an eyewitness changes his/her story it casts doubt on which story is true. If it had gone the other way and witnesses originally said they saw Trayvon begging for his life, then heard a gunshot a few seconds later suddenly changed their testimony and said "You know, I'm not sure who was begging for his life, I didn't really see I just heard it...It could have been Zimmerman now that I think of it." It would be just as wrong in the reverse. My inclination is to believe that eyewitness testimony is most accurate in the immediate aftermath of a crime. Afterwards our recollection can be clouded by countless re-tellings to family and friends, discussions that followed, dislike for the persons/people involved, etc. I don't think they changed there stories with intent to mislead, I think they likely had several conversations with people (friends etc.) who have already put them through cross-examination. I can see how it would go -

"Bob, are you sure you saw Trayvon throwing MMA punches? It was raining and you said you only looked for a moment...maybe he just had the guy pinned down, you know? I mean you're going to testify and this guy might get off because of what you think you saw, I'd just say I wasn't sure if I wasn't sure... What if the family includes you in the civil suit or something, I mean Christ this could follow you for the rest of you're life and you're not even sure what you saw..."

Personally, I think in any trial if an eyewitness changes his testimony significantly then his testimony should be made inadmissable as tampered evidence. Not because I particularly like Zommerman or feel any sympathy for his case. But because I can see how this would affect other defendants trying to defend themselves. I believe that everyone is entitled to a fair trial, and if people are lying about what they saw, either to the police or on the witness stand; that doesn't allow for a fair trial IMO. Purjury is a crime, so is lying during a police investigation, it's called obstruction of justice.

17 year old gold toothed thugged up Trayvon..... crickets.....

Who was a different person entirely.

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY! What is it about it that you just dont get? This is NOT a race crime. It is not a White on Black, or Black on White, its an American on American an we have a justice system set up for this. It hurts my heart when we start putting bounties on peoples heads, thats what they did 100 years ago and later. We should be PROGRESSING and not REGRESSING. No matter guilt or not, we lost a young soul that night, and I'm sure his family still needs our prayers.

Object lesson in why eyewitnesses are mostly worthless.

i would like to chime in on the comments made by America Today-Anthony and Demar and also Julian in Dallas. things you said have a lot of validity however, Blacks in this country is not racist we're in a country that discriminated against us for years. study your history it wasnt Blacks that kept your forefathers from being what you wanted to be in life only rich, white people that held political offices and those who supported them for years. now ask the question are black people angry that answer will be YES. not to give an excuse you cant blame those who wants equality for their families its no different from women rights or now gay rights or should i say rights for homosexuals. we were lynched, crucified, murdered, raped, mentally divided, and that's just the tip of the ice berg. if you thought images of passion of christ was hard to watch then you can only imagine what took place on our own soil when it comes to slavery! now back to this case the only reason why anyone got involved with this is because when someone was shot (trayvon) and murdered there was no arrest, even if it was to question the testimony of the alleged shooter. i will honestly say if there was an initial arrest and the proper thing was done by investigating the murder it wouldnt have gotten so much attention. all this talk about black panthers and obama etc etc is just plain ignorant. dont allow the powers to be to keep us down and divided. its never (or should never) be about black and white but the fact of the matter is that we have people living amongst us that hate you for being you. whether its because you're black, white, rich, poor, male, female, straight, gay, christian, none christian, republican or democrat these people are in my opinion are evil and we're distracted about what is really going on in our country. people we're fighting a spritiual war and all these issues are distractions by satan. no one should be homeless in this country, no one should be told they cant have equal rights because they may be black, white, straight or gay etc etc, no one should be rich by preying on the lack of knowledge of man. the reason this country is failing is because WE'RE FAILING! yeah yeah i know no one wants to be considered part of the problem but the fact is we are part of the problem from corp greed to the common man. we all want something for nothing, more for less. we took prayer out of shcools, we project images of what suppose to be a better life style so now both men and women have to work chasing the american dream which is a joke. look basically guys i can go on and on about what i feel the problem(s) maybe but the fact is no one would probably care about anything i just typed or try to point out all the things i said in disagreement. LOVE PEACE AND HAPPINESS. LOVE PEACE AND HAPPINESS. LOVE PEACE AND HAPPINESS. (now answer the question how do we get it?!)

mackman-912848@Demar.....Your kidding RIGHT????? The most racist people in America are Black?? Where you been for the last 400 years of American history? Black People REACT to racism, white RACISTs perpetuated hatred, murder, and violence for centuries all across America for hundreds of years!

This is what I am talking about. This person obviously doesnt care to talk about any facts of the case. He, like quite a few other people, are only here to vent their opinion on the state of things.

I dont believe that all 100% of the black community feels hatred towards their white neighbors. Why would they? I also believe that most of the black community that does feel hatred towards their white neighbors are a product of a systematic targeted campaign to create a voting base for the more liberal side of the Democratic party and keep them there.

They are also targeted by others within their community that have developed ways to make vast sums of money by keeping their brothers ignorant and destitute.

I would be angry too.

Forget about the prayers, keep sending the checks. Momma needs some spending money! This is a full time job!

Just think about the movie rights.

not to give an excuse you cant blame those who wants equality for their families its no different from women rights or now gay rights or should i say rights for homosexuals. we were lynched, crucified, murdered, raped, mentally divided, and that's just the tip of the ice berg. if you thought images of passion of christ was hard to watch then you can only imagine what took place on our own soil when it comes to slavery!

Is that why black women drive slow in the fast lane?

I get it. It is alright to use the history of your ancestors as an excuse for your "hatred". That hatred really just means you want sympathy and free money.

Ok. I like it. Im Scotch Irish. I will be headed for the nearest English embassy and give my list of demands. Considering that my ancestors were persecuted for a much, much larger amount of time I will hope to get a few billion dollars and my own personal serving wench.

Sounds pretty pathetic, doesnt it Teddy?

Demar white people wrote the book, chapter and verse, on racism. There will never, ever, ever be a more a more racist people than white folks. Not all of them but too many of them to just write it off as a few white folks. Slavery, Jim Crow and segregation, Civil Rights Act of 1964, three-fifths of a person, Ku Klux Klan. When have you ever heard of a Black person, Latino, Asian or Native American refer to a white person as only 60 percent of a real person? You have no effing clue what it feels like to be discriminated against on the basis of your race. I have one question that I've always wanted to ask you racists: How does it feel to know that ALL of your rights are protected? If white people, as a whole, aren't racists then why did we need the 14th Amendment and Civil Rights Act of 1964? Just like you pass down your DNA, stop acting like you didn't pass down those same views to your children today.

Demar white people wrote the book, chapter and verse, on racism.

Champ does not know his history, at all.

But he does bring up a good point:

Just like you pass down your DNA, stop acting like you didn't pass down those same views to your children today.

You cant live in the past. It isnt healthy.

You White racists are absolutely pathetic. Now that the witnesses who first gave statements in support of Zimmerman, realize that they can be prosecuted for lying under oath at trial, they are not so sure about what they saw.

The witnesses gave accounts BEFORE this case garnered national attention. If it wasn't for the media, it would probably not even have gotten past local news. One would think that the accounts were honest, since at the time there was no pressure, or race baiting.

If a Black person were to believe that Zimmerman deserves a fair trial is he a White racist?

Three cheers to everyone that wants to discuss the miscarriage of justice known as the Florida judicial system.

Please leave the racist rhetoric at the door or at least give equal billing to Zimmerman's Hispanic heritage.

Thank you.

Why do you have to compete about who was more poorly treated and for how long? The fact that both of your ancestors (and mine, and pretty much everyone else's) have all been through this at some time or another in history just shows how much we have in common. Nothing mystifies me more than a group comparing their poor treatment to another's, as if suffering MORE or LONGER means worse. Isn't the suffering of the weak (poverty of the mind, checkbook, or voting card) at the hands of the strong (those who had power at any given time and misused it) just plain wrong no matter how you package it? The longer you divide groups into segments of suffering, the longer the suffering will continue. Haven't you ever heard of "united we stand, divided we fall?" Don't you think that your posturing about ANY marginalized group does a disservice to every other group? Vow to accept, celebrate, and defend the worth and dignity of all human beings no matter how different they are. What a boring and senseless world if everyone was alike.

Witness number 6 had an especially amusing change regarding his story by saying that Martin may have merely pinned Zimmerman to the ground, thereby implying that Trayvon didn't strike Zimmerman.

I suppose Zimmerman's cut lip, facial bruises, blackened eyes, and broken nose just magically appeared.

Are these witnesses being threatened?

Some info for those of you that are google challenged.

(CBS) SANFORD, Fla. - The lead investigator probing the deadly shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin wanted neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman arrested and charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, ABC News reports.

Investigator Chris Serino of the Sanford, Fla. Police Department wanted the 28-year-old Zimmerman behind bars, but the state Attorney's Office said there was not enough evidence to lead to a conviction, sources told ABC.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57405716-504083/trayvon-martin-lead-investigator-wanted-george-zimmerman-arrested-the-night-of-the-fatal-shooting/

I'm always amused but never surprised when some ignorant person uses the "three-fifths of a person" meme as an example of racism.

Here's the TRUTH in a nutshell:

Prior to the "three-fifths" proclamation, Blacks had NO LEGAL STANDING AS HUMAN BEINGS. They were just considered to be PROPERTY.

The anti-slavery Abolitionists in Congress initiated a resolution that recognized Blacks as HUMAN BEINGS.

The pro-slavery contingent in Congress used that resolution to claim that, if Blacks were to be deemed "human", then the Southern, pro-slavery states could count them in their census as "citizens". That would have given the pro-slavery states MORE representation and power in the Congress.

The Abolitionists countered that, since the slaves were not allowed to VOTE, they would only count as "three-fifths of a person" for CENSUS purposes.

So, the "three-fifths" thing was NOT racist. It was used to gain for Blacks the designation of being considered "human" for the FIRST TIME in America, while simultaneously preventing the pro-slavery states from gaining too much political power.

When will all you silly American's finally realize that for at least 2 generations now, there has been more and more mixing of the races. The chances of anyone being 100% something is pretty slim these days. More and more are becoming "muts"

foolishness abounds, what are you missing about the law being based on race. You're just rationalizing racism, not disproving it.

@AmericaToday...I'd like to hear your comments if the tables were turned and Zimmerman was black and Trayvon happened to be white. Would you believe that the KKK would be lined up outside the courthouse to protest? Or blacks would fear retaliation to their homes and families? Then you have the nerve to say leave the racial rhetoric at the door. You're an idiot.

For me, this changes nothing.

Witness 2 saw someone running but cannot tell who? How does this help T or Z?

Witness 12 changed her opinion based on what, a news report! This is a credible witness?

Witness 13 saw a bloodied Z and said he was getting his a$$ beat, this is a bad choice of words that will most likely come back to haunt him.

Witness 6 now say T was on top of Z but may have been just holding him down? I guess is it was to stop Z from breaking his own nose and beating his own head on the sidewalk.

I still am not convinced one way or another and all of this speculation means zero. People say Z should have taken his beating like a man! At what point do you decide someone is trying to do more that beat you up. I think that point came when Z heard his nose crunch!

Did you know that the word slave comes from the word Slav because of the number of Slavic people enslaved by Otto the Great and his successors? Since my family is of slavic descent and arrived in the US well after the civil war, I'm requesting exemption from "white guilt."

My family didn't enslave or oppress anyone, in fact if anything, I'm likely descended from slaves myself!

That's wonderful Xina. It doesn't change the fact that blacks in America are living with the descendants of the people who enslaved us. And many take pride in keeping their long held family beliefs and social policies alive.

Brain Candy - the point is that it's assinine to jusge white people simply for being white just as it's idiotic to judge black people for being black.

Most white people in America are not decended from slave owners.

A lot of black people in America are not descended from slaves.

Many white people come from historically oppressed peoples as well.

A lot of what's perceived as racism against the black community is actually a reaction to the gigantic chip that so many carry on their shoulder. I remember as a 16 year old working in a fast food restaurant where a very large African American jumped down my throat and really scared me near to death because I dropped a quarter while giving him his change. He was accusing me of being racist because I didn't touch his hand when handing him his money. White people get tired of constantly having to defend themselves as not "racist".

I've lived with blacks, I've lived with gays, I've lived with black gays.

What do I have to do to stop being the object of suspicion and having my motives questioned? Isn't there a tee shirt or sash or something I can get that says "she cool"?

Or maybe people of all colors need to stop judging each other based on what they think their great great granddaddy was or wasn't.

I don't judge anyone just on race. Ive lived in a lot of different places. Always had as many white friends as black. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the same racism towards blacks still exist today. It doesn't just still exist, but it's still defended with the same tired arguments. Some type of socially acceptable rational to legalize bigotry. These aren't concerns of some time long past. These are the things that blacks and others still have to contend with on the day to day now from white America. There's a difference between your 'suspicion' and being aware of the environment in which we live. That view only seems unreasonable to people who don't experience racial profiling and discrimination on a regular basis, and believe it to be a non-issue. If you want blacks to stop judging whites on the color of their skin, blacks would have to at least be to a point where they aren't constantly subjected to that themselves.

Most white people in America are not decended from slave owners.

But most supported slavery. Even if they didn't have slaves themselves, most didn't believe it to be wrong.

A lot of black people in America are not descended from slaves.

Do you think that matters to someone who is just racist towards blacks?

Many white people come from historically oppressed peoples as well.

But it's no longer a part of their daily lives. Blacks still live with a lot of thf

Many white people come from historically oppressed peoples as well.

But it's no longer a part of their daily existence. Blacks still live with a lot of the racism and the superiority complex that many in America have. And it effects us with jobs, housing, fairness and justice in court and in the eyes of the law, etc. Your argument isn't relevant if you don't even consider these obvious things.

I don't judge anyone just on race

I do not know if you meant to imply this, but to use "just on race" would denote that there is some component of your judgement which is based on race? If that is the case, how is that not any different that the wrongs that are done against you? Is it not the case that if you make any component of a judgement based on a color of a person skin, you have just made a racist judgement?

What Xina the Awesome stated is true. Even if it is a fact that my great great great grand-sire some how abused or done something against your great great great grand-sire, how does that mean I have done something against you? I am sorry that some where in your ancestry your family has been wronged or that there are presently people in the world who may have done you wrong. But I am not going to take the blame of what others did to you or your grand-sire as though they came from me. I did not enslave you. I am not preventing you from attempting to succeed in your life.

Do you people really try and miss the point or is it something you do automatically? The point is that racist white people make up a large component of American society. When some injustice happens you hear a lot of negative comments and assumptions made towards a black victim. You have people throughout these post on this case from people practically cheering about another black thug/punk/etc of the streets. You have white politicians legalizing racial profiling. White politicians passing legislation limiting rights or personal decisions based solely on race, gender, or sexuality. All of these types of things come from the conservative right faithfully. And the conservative right, even though they would like to believe they represent a diverse slice of the population, is made up of 98%+ whites. Think I'm exaggerating? Look at footage of any campaign rally similar setting where the actual base supports are out together in numbers. Unless it's someone affiliated with the campaign, you don't see anyone but white people at a republican event. At a democratic event you see every color and race imaginable represented. Now when look at that and consider the rhetoric, and that if legislation aimed at negatively effecting a select groups' civil rights is always going to come from the right. If you look at the vast majority of racist statements and general hatred towards anyone outside their race. When you look to who tries to rationalize inequality, it's always from the conservative right. The effective party for the white man. And they have a huge membership. Now why wouldn't a minority in this country take that into consideration in many circumstances. To not would mean we really are genetically inferior in mental capacity. Why is it so hard for you to grasp a concept that's not even beyond the understanding of your average house pet?

Braincandy, I'm starting to think you've got a major bug up your backside since you seem incapable of putting your view across without making degrading remarks yourself. People, white black or purple have good and bad apples in the barrel. Hate to tell you, but there IS no discriminatory legislation currently on the books. Learn to live and let live. The point people are trying to make to you is that there is NOBODY alive that can't trace their roots to an ancestor or three that was persecuted for something. Give it up already. And your statement that the whites who weren't slave owners tacitly gave their approval is full of bs, or have you forgotten what the civil war was fought over?

Gotta agree with gotta be kidding. Briancandy, isn't it about time to pull the stick outta of the backside of your attitude?

Everything I said can be seen daily. You can close your eyes to it, you can try and come up with some type of rationale for it, but to ACT like that isn't the case? Well, history books and your daily news source will support what I said. You're not going to change history (or daily events) by ignoring it.

@braincandy-33... Post #3.46 - below

Many white people come from historically oppressed peoples as well.

But it's no longer a part of their daily existence. Blacks still live with a lot of the racism and the superiority complex that many in America have. And it effects us with jobs, housing, fairness and justice in court and in the eyes of the law, etc. Your argument isn't relevant if you don't even consider these obvious things.

This is your race laced world where everything and everyone is occupied with race matters and in matters of race you are always prejudiced against overtly or behind the scene the bar is raised for you. You are the equivalent of the white mild mannered racist to me. Your world is view is always filtered through race lenses your world is one in which raciest views influence all of our decisions and on and on you go all has a race hue to the subject.

That there is not a serious race pathology in many American minds is ignoring some salient features of our society and culture, here we agree. I can guarantee you I and many tens of millions do not wake up and start thinking of black Americans in any negative way and I can say do not think of black people at all. I think I could very easily listen to a legal criminal case and be unbiased and able to render a judgement based in the evidence and nothing more. I was born in Southern California have spent some time out of the state but for the most part have lived all my life in SoCal the South Bay cities.

I really pity you and your white counter part that have race always a factor in everything you do even the ordinary items you mention in #3.46 what a pitiful people you are in a way you deserve each other. I really find much of what you say already self-evident and full of self-pity and most likely self-loathing with a veneer of Black Pride as evidenced by all sorts of African artifacts and possibly not a book shelf with many books of black writers describing "The Black Experience" in America...a recent title of a book I do believe I could be wrong there is always one claiming to present an expose of this social phenomena I am sure you have many such books.

Your mild mannered "black racism" and playing the victim card is really just so nauseating I can only read your posts once just so mentally lopsided and pointless: for example the number of black men in prison or some form of jail, I did not catch you opine on that maybe I missed that? Here is something of substance you could use to give yourself some credibility for the other hog-wash you put out as facts of all of our lives hahaha too much. The injustice of breaking up families with these insane mandatory sentences, jury nullification, disproportionate sentencing, proper professional council, job training in black communities where the jobless rate I understand is more than triple the national average, along with Hispanics lots of material but you only complain and whine and as your counter part the mild mannered average white with seething racial hatred boiling just below the surface (all their troubles are because of some phantom black person or people...they are sick) comes off in public as just so color blind why race is no factor in his or her thinking or no not them.

What a bitter laugh....you all excuse the rest of us that are trying to live and let live are so busy trying to make ends meet we have no time to vent racial prejudice and try to be role models of fair play in all aspects of life to our children....you and your likes (racists of any color) we have no time for and in this regard I have wasted more time with you than I intended.

Pitiful existence............really sorrowful.....

The prosecution has its work cut out to get a conviction. But juries are unpredictable, almost as unpredictable as witnesses.

Very true. If there is a choice of manslaughter listed, they may have it easier. That was a mistake made in the Anthony case ... no option for manslaughter.

You are definitely correct on the unreliability of eye-witnesses. You just need to look at the number of people falsely convicted and exonerated by the Innocence Project. Convicted by eye witness testimony yet exonerated by DNA.

Plus that one lady who lives right near where this happen..had to correct the police report when she told them what happen..she said my seeing eye dog saw it all..not her!

Here is the likely senario:

Prosecutor: Mr.X on the night in question, you stated that you saw abc. Now Mr.X now you are trying to say you saw xyz. Which one is it Mr. X? Are you a liar Mr. x? You said on the night of the incident you saw abc, was that the truth? Now you are changing your story, isn't that right Mr. X? You have lied one time before Mr. X by your own admission, Isn't that correct? Please tell the jury why they should believe you now???? This will get an objection from the defense and the prosecutor will withdraw the question and not having the judge rule on the objection. The jury will be scribbling like hell and saying under their breath: it's a shame that some low life person would come here and lie in order to try and save this murderer. He is guilty as sin!!!!

The problem is that all the eye witnesses are pretty much changing their stories to be negative for Zimmerman based on media coverage. One even clearly admits she changed her story based on 'reports'. The Florida Department of Law should be charged with witness tampering.

The only thing you would consider truthful is that first account when it was fresh in their minds and they had no pressure telling their story to police. After GZ became an overnight evil villain celebrity on every major news network it's complete trash.

While we may never know if Zimmerman even talked to the kid and instigated anything, (he will clearly say he didn't, and prosecutors will say he did) one thing I do know is it's not A-OK to start beating the crap out of someone regardless of if he has 'words' with you or not. Martin had only wounds on his knuckles and Zimmerman had all the wounds on his person. He was getting his tail end handed to him. Unfortunately for Martin, Zimmerman had a gun. It's self-defense and at the end of it the prosecutor is going to lose the case. Because the forensic evidence all points to the same thing: Zimmerman first getting an ass beating and not landing any blows, then Martin getting shot.

Everything else is complete supposition and made up rhetoric by the prosecution. She doesn't have an eye witness stating Zimmerman accosted the kid. She doesn't have video or any other evidence of Zimmerman being the aggressor. She is pulling it all out her back side, and simply trying to slander him to the point that everyone goes 'Oh he's an @!$%# he HAD to have done it.' That's not how it works in a factual court of law and because she has no evidence of any confrontation that's reasonable doubt.

Exactly, this is not surprising at all. It is extremely difficult to get to the absolute truth in any case because of those statistics.

The influence of the black community and Sharp tongue Al has gotten to the witnesses. Apparently MSNBC has an agenda of finding George Zimmerman guilty in the Media.

The truth is that none of these witnesses saw enough to make a difference. None of these witnesses change the fact that Zimmerman was attacked by Tyrone Martin. Evidenced by the damage done to G.Z. that's clear to see.

It makes you wonder: Were they lying originally or now? What fact makes them change their story?

As is known from the past, you remember what you said when telling the truth, but when lying you can't remember what you said the first time.

Yogiman,

Im not sure if a fact made them change. I would imagine driving home through the media circus known as the front gate of "The Retreat" would be a better bet.

The witnesses must know that eventually their identities will become public.

I have read, as they must have, what the New Black Panther party has stated, brought to you by MSNBC. Would you want to be a witness in this case? I certainly wouldnt.

Ever notice how popular it has become to hate Zimmerman? I doubt half the people posting on this board care a bit about anything other then the hate they felt on the first days.

Hate brought to you by Jesse Jackson, Spike Lee, and Al Sharpton. These guys are very good at profiting from the anger and fear brought up by their empty, ignorant, rhetoric.

They are and always will be a huge lead anchor around the necks of the black community.

I would hope that everybody will learn a serious lesson from the Travon Martin case. Let his death as tragic as it is, been a stepping stone to improve Race relations, rather then tear them apart. It is probably the only gift that we could give Mrs. and Mr. Martin, the true losers in this sitiuation. They lost there son. When any parent loses child we should make a big deal about it, not in a media sense,but with outrage. When we are in our youth we don't alway's make the best decisions. This would cover most all races and creeds. I made many a decision in my youth that put me in harms way, I just got lucky and nobody shot me. There are allot of problems in our Country, but we all are American's and " We Can Fix This" Now is the time to travel the road less traveled. There is a reason our money says " In God WE Trust" and it always should be that way. The Road less traveled in this counrty is the road to our Lord, Period!!!!

John,

Well said.

Everyday you hear of black on black crimes. Do you hear such a fever to linch the person if it's black on black, no. Only to blame the white man for putting them in that position.

@America Today-Anthony

It's sad that you say they are the anchor around the necks of the black community when it is the white community that gives them weight to drag us down. Whereas the majority of the black community ignores them, the white community constantly watches, comments, and is ignited by their words and assertions. They then ascribe all the things said by Jackson, Sharpton, and Lee as speaking for, from the eyes of, or in lieu of the black community.

The day the white community (and others) stop "tuning in" to them, so to speak, will be the day that they will no longer be able to weigh anyone down with shock value, ignorance, and irrelevance.

P.S. Before it comes up, I am black and I have lived in multiple black communities around the country.

rj2029x: The problem (as I see it) is that those are the individuals who are granted the "platform" in the media to express their opinions, and the tendency is for the white population to consider their rantings as representative of the black community as a whole. Between the eagerness of the media to stir up controversy, and the eagerness of the general population (both white and black) to allow it to happen, biased media coverage has done great harm to the state of race relations in this country.

A news headline should not read "A black man killed a white man", or "A white man killed a black man", or any other reference to race. That type of reporting only serves to fan the flames of racism, and those flames don't need fanned!

Charles, UH those witnesses are witness for the prosecution as it is the prosecutor that presented them as evidence, so your little scenario will be played out by the defense and not the prosecution. That scenario just casts doubt left and right, and in a perfect world we have justice 'beyond a shadow of doubt'

How do you know someone is lying? Got proof..if so..tell the courts that!

You are definitely correct on the unreliability of eye-witnesses. You just need to look at the number of people falsely convicted and exonerated by the Innocence Project. Convicted by eye witness testimony yet exonerated by DNA.

That's right Beth! Troy Davis executed on the testimony of witnesses where 7 recanted (or what I like to call LIED) YEARS later.

mike277: I think in this case, it's not a question of whether someone is lying...it's more a question of WHEN were they lying? Were their initial responses to police questioning on the night of the incident accurate (true), or is their revised version accurate? They both can't be true.

Several possible explanations: 1. Truth was told the first time, and due to either threats or bribes, they're lying now to protect themselves or their families; 2. They lied the first night (maybe to try to protect Zimmerman?), and now due to the thought of being forced to lie on the witness stand, they've changed their story to the truth; or 3. Maybe they've simply come to a different conclusion of what they saw that night.

No matter how I look at it, since the eyewitness accounts vary so widely from one another, I wouldn't place much credence on what these eyewitnesses provide.

I thought the exact same thing. Next we are going to hear the timeline might be incorrect because the 911 operator was cooking grits or something!

Thanks for making me laugh. I feel sorrry for the guy.

Be prepared for roits cause if Zimmerman is found not guilty, look out!

Jo-An, you have absolutely no right to say anything to anyone about being prejudged. You have had this case decided since you heard the 'edited' version of msnbc tapes. Let's just let the court and jury decide this. As I said before, I think the prosecutor should have requested manslaughter as a charge, because I do not think they can get a conviction for murder 2. Too much hate already people. Stop fanning the fire.

LOL...you have a right to speak, but I don't?
Oh..okay....

Navy, You are correct. I do not understand how supposed civilized people can be so vindictive and blood thirsty. People, your hate is not required nor wanted.

Jo-An, I never said you didn't have a right to speak. All I said was you were going off on XD for prejudging the case when that is all you have done since this whole mess started.

zimmerman will serve time either way, either in jail or in the streets end of story

Evil never Win

Got to agree with Navy. Jo An has been very obnoxiously opinionated through out this whole case and has consistently put down and demeaned any and all who have disagreed with her. On a few of the stories on this most of the general public had stopped commenting but for several days Jo An and a couple of others continued to post like it was their personal site or e-mail discussions.(I save stories that interest me and go back and check out the comments from time to time) Way over-kill and predjudiced in my opinion to be regarded as any serious source of factual or fair information.

James... Actually sir, "his" name is NOT President Obama. His NAME is Barack H. Obama. His TITLE is President. Just sayin.

zimmerman will serve time either way, either in jail or in the streets end of story

Evil never Win

On what planet do the words"You don't need to do that" means go get that son of a b...and shoot him!

You never got the look from your mom or dad ?........that was a verbal look........meaning get your ass back to your car and wait for the police fool!.....oh..that wasn't a direct order....the HELL it wasn't!

Zimmerman will claim that when the dispatcher said "which way is he running" Z took that as a request to follow him and see which way he went, and when the dispatcher realized that Z was out of the car is when he said "we dont need you to do that". Long and short of if is going to be did Martin strike Z first, and all the evidence says he did, after that, Z has every right to defend himself.

Star -

While a reasonably valid point to bring up, everyone must realize that instructions, epsecially non-specific instructions ('You don't need to do that' vs 'don't do that') from a 911 operator are not the same as being given a specific, lawful order by a law enforcement officer. Z was under no obligation to follow the 'request' of the non-sworn 911 operator.

While a reasonably valid point to bring up, everyone must realize that instructions, epsecially non-specific instructions ('You don't need to do that' vs 'don't do that') from a 911 operator are not the same as being given a specific, lawful order by a law enforcement officer. Z was under no obligation to follow the 'request' of the non-sworn 911 operator.

This logic doesn't work any more past age 5 or 6... or you stop being 'baby cute".

Sorry Mike... "We don't need you to do that" is quite different than saying DON'T do that. It was just the dispatcher noting that the action was NOT necessary, not that the action SHOULD NOT be done. Very big difference.

"we don't need you to do that" is hardly a legal order..... It was probably given as an advisory to Zimmerman for his own safety....

You need to listen to the whole 911 transcript. Msnbc and other news media conveniently left that part out. He was told not to follow him and Zimmerman replied "OK". How many times does that have to be told?

@ Dee Dee-2887849, I did listen to the call and the Operator of the Non Emergency Line that Zimmerman called asked if Zimmerman was following Trayvon and Zimmerman answered Yes but I lost him, The Operator then said Well We Dont Need You To Do That in responce to Zimmerman saying that yes he was following Trayvon, So now tell me how many times will this have to be said to you before you let it sink in.

Big Difference between Mommy telling you not to hurt kitty and someone telling you not to follow someone, But thats not even what was said. The Operator first off had No Legal Authority to tell Zimmerman to do or not do anything. But the words that she did use where we dont need you to do that after she asked zimmerman if he was following trayvon and zimmerman said yes.

Jo-An-4354969

LOL....we don't need you to do that....
So if your mommy told you she never wanted to see you do that again (ripping ears off kittens) and you continue, out of her eye sight? It okay?

A parent has authority over a child. Take that a step further an ADULT has authority over a minor. CONTEXT has meaning. The dispatcher has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY. Even your HERO Corey states that the dispatcher ADVISED George not to follow in her charge sheet. So far she has shot you down on "f---ing ???" being punks and now stated that dispatch only provided advice not an order. You sure backed off of Marissa Alexanders case when you learned Corey was the prosecutor there and gave her 20 years.

Zimmerman's intent is what should decide his guilt or innocence. Zimmerman does not have a history of killing people. I doubt his intent was to kill Martin. For 2nd degree murder Zimmerman needs to have known his actions would have harmed or killed Martin. Again, Zimmerman's history does not point to a man who intends to kill people. He wanted to protect not kill. Intent should be the deciding factor. 2nd degree murder is not likely to stick. Manslaughter should have been the charge.

If Zimmerman did have a history of killing people, he likely would have been behind bars already (maybe) and thus Trayvon would not have been killed. It's no longer a question of "if" he had a history; now he "does" and because he does, he should be behind bars.

Trayon's history did not point to a kid who intended to burglarize houses. But, Zimmerman wanted to "protect" the neighborhood from him. You know the rest.

The point is it is not 2nd degree murder. Manslaughter. The wrong charge was laid.

"we don't need you to do that" is hardly a legal order..... It was probably given as an advisory to Zimmerman for his own safety....

Yes, because as everyone knows 28 year old adult male should be in fear of a 17 year old kid. Regardless, the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon, to keep @!$%# like this from happening, and protect everyone involved. Including people in neighborhood, in their homes. Zimmerman ignored it completely. What would do you think would have happend if Trayvon had not have gotten shot, but say that bullet went through a window and hit someone on their couch watching tv, during the altercation?

There honestly is no creditable eyes witness to this case. I doubt that Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon. Scare him with the gun, after provoking the situation by continuing to follow Trayvon, yes. This is not a self defense case, nor is it murder. This is clear case of manslaughter and Zimmerman needs to be held accountable for his actions.

Ross - You are right. 2nd degree murder will not be prosecutable. That's the point. As attorney and law professor Alan Derschowitz has emphatically stated, based on law- (you all remember the law)- the case of 2nd degree murder has zero merit. It is meant to appease a specific 'group' (which is unConstitutional to manipulate by grouping people - it's intent is to use them) all for political gain, not to be a 'win' in court. Justice in this case is insignificant - it is about political manuevering, group pandering (voting blocs), POTUS overreach, egos, emotions, pious rhetoric, and one fall guy for a nation sadly reflective of far too many of the power mongers, the self-serving, the ill-educated and the misinformed. It's not about justice, it's about the overreach of government. It's not about freedom, it's about control. AND sadly and most importantly, it's not about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, race, or guns - those are just 'tools'. It's about how the government can manipulate the People into believing government must be the administrator of virtually everything. Out of all this internal division, cynicism, manipulation and deceit, this is how governments take power over the People. The smarter and more wary the People are to protect their individual rights - not group rights - the less likely a government can become a dictatorship. We are moving closer to a dictatorship than at anytime in my memory.

Foxhead-there are plenty of communities around this country where you'd be stupid not to be fearful of a lot of teenagers including 17 year olds. Heck, in some neighborhoods you'd be smart to be fearful of some of the 7 year olds with gang banging older siblings etc..

If someone on the other end of the phone tells you to jump off a bridge will you do that too? You don't have any legal obligation to obey the 911 operators. The police never enter a house and arrest you for disobeying the 911 operator.

Are you truly that ignorant to believe that? I'm sure this is just selective obedience on your part as it is for all of those that are "claiming" to be law abiding down to following the orders of a 911 operator. If that were the case we wouldn't need the police, would we?

Does anyone remember when a bomb was set off at the Olympic Venue in Atlanta, and one guy was targeted, persecuted, had his life ruined - and had nothing to do with it? Of course, that didn't come out until years later, and by then, no one really cared anymore. He was innocent, but everyone was ready to have him executed at the time. Sound and feel familiar?

None of us were there. We don't know what happened, everything here is pure speculation. Post whatever you want, but it's all personal opinion and doesn't mean squat when you look at the big picture. The court will decide guilt or innocence based on evidence and testimony, and it seems the testimony is suddenly shifting on the wind to the point it's prejudiced by the media at worst and unreliable at best.

And no matter what the outcome, will any of it really change the life of anyone on here? I know it's not going to change mine, one way or another. I'll still get up, go to work, gas up the car when needed, clean the house, and do everything the same way I have before Zimmerman and Martin made headlines.

-MeatPopsicle

How is the the end of the story? 'He had no legal authority to follow' - How so? There's no law saying he couldn't follow Martin at the time. Perhaps, in a long term situation Martin could have convinced authorities that Z was stocking him, but that's a non-starter here. Also remember, this is a private community, not a public shopping mall. It's a bit like saying you own ten acres and you notice someone on your property, you would be perfectly legal to follow that person and see what they are doing. The private community is the same way, members of that community have similar rights to control ingress and egress to that community and challenge anyone on that property. Might not be the best way to make good friends and neighbors, but it is legal.

I love it when people toss out the "This is the fact "blahblahblah" end of story/discussion over" line. Like what they say is the final word on the subject. Then they turn around and are wrong on top of it.

Yes, because as everyone knows 28 year old adult male should be in fear of a 17 year old kid. Regardless, the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon, to keep @!$%# like this from happening, and protect everyone involved. Including people in neighborhood, in their homes. Zimmerman ignored it completely.

5 seconds on Google and I can give you a list of at least 100 people over the age of 28, that have been killed by someone younger than 17. So what's your point? Where did you get the "Zimmerman ignored it completely" line from? The edited 911 call? How about the part of the call that showed GZ saying "ok" when the dispatcher said he didn't have to follow TM. GZ claims he started back to his truck at that point, and there is no one, you included, who either saw him continue to follow, or saw him return to the vehicle.

Then why is it that police are routinely given 72 hours after a shooting to make a statement. The emotions and adrenaline of the moment tend to cloud issues and the mouth is in motion BEFORE the brain.

If Zimmerman is found innocent under law and he is subjected to any intimidation, manipulation, coersion or physical harm, evil will have won.

Zimmerman will be found guilty only because Sharp Tongue Al and Hairlip Jesse have brought publicity to the case. These witnesses have changed their statements for the same reason. They're probably be afraid of being murdered by the N.B.P. after testifying in court so they'll change their story now.

So much for justice for either party involved.

You don't know that GZ confronted TM, you assume it. In fact, in audio recordings, it is TM that is first heard, asking "Why you following me?"....

GZ can just as easily claim that he was keeping TM in sight so he could update police as to his whereabouts..... and then was confronted and assaulted....

Yes GZ can claim Trayvon attacked him because he is alive and Trayvon is dead! Yes "they always get away" to me sounds like I'm tired of this bs and this one won't get away he sure didn't! "Why you following me" sounds like a teenage kid that was scared! It sounds like Trayvon was standing his ground from a self appointed watchman with 2 different types of anti depressants in his body who had a gun and that made him a tough guy. Lock him up!

There is no audio recording of Martin at all, which makes identification of the screams impossible. That was Martin's girlfriend who claimed that Martin asked "Why are you following me?" That corroborates Zimmerman's account.

One theory is that there were 2 encounters before the third encounter that started with a fight and ended with the gunshot.

Encounter 1 was caught on Zimmerman's 911 call.

Encounter 2 was after Zimmerman walked back to his vehicle, and Martin followed him back to ask "Why are you following me?" to which Zimmerman said no.

Encounter 3 was after Martin walked away from the vehicle and out of sight. Zimmerman walked around the corner of the building to see what direction Martin had gone only to find him right there. Martin was angry that Zimmerman followed him a second time so punched him and the fight was on.

GZ can just as easily claim that he was keeping TM in sight so he could update police as to his whereabouts..... and then was confronted and assaulted...

Then I guess Trevon could have "stood his ground" because he was in fear of his life because he was being followed? Oh wait, HE wasn't the one with a gun!

He should have stayed in the car!

Beth-440386

Then I guess Trevon could have "stood his ground" because he was in fear of his life because he was being followed? Oh wait, HE wasn't the one with a gun!

Except a reasonable person would not reasonably believe they were in imminent danger of bodily injury or death once words were exchanged. There is NO evidence that the gun was visible prior to the fight. Once the fight was on then BOTH of them had reasonable belief that they were in danger of imminent bodily injury. So SYG would apply. Under Self Defense though George was within legal requirements as he met the requirements... He could retreat no further... being on the ground under trayvon and he was receiving severe injury, broken nose counts. Trayvon had the option to retreat and George was NOT hitting him back.

Tim Bertonvia Facebook

I thnk you are confused. There were 2 encounters not 3.

1. George observed Trayvon and Trayvon eventually went around the corner out of sight and george attempted to follow.

2. George and Trayvon encountered each other for a second time. That time a fight ensued.

White mentality! White looking Zimmerman has the right to stalk a black kid and question him, because he is white. Black kid should be subservant and shuffle and flechit at the beck and call of the white stalker, becuase he is a black kid, with no rights same as a white man!! Did I interpet that right????

Except a reasonable person would not reasonably believe they were in imminent danger of bodily injury or death once words were exchanged.

T-V, I was merely showing how easily words could have been twisted from the former remark. However, I would say it would depend upon what words were exchanged.

There is NO evidence that the gun was visible prior to the fight.

Of course there was no evidence the gun was visible -- there were only two people there. One dead, the other certainly wouldn't say.

Dean, who were you raised by, the KKK. Why don't you get some balls and try to take 20-25 out by yourself instead of being a coward and hoping a vigilante like Zimmerman would do it for you.

You're out to lunch, Dean. Martin wasn't being a smartass if Zimmerman had no right to accost him and certainly no right to be respected. If Zimmerman had come at me asking questions I would have told him where to put his questions and I'm a white man older than him and Martin combined. You prove you're not even a sorry excuse for a man when you're "Glad he's dead" and wish he shot more unarmed kids (the presumption being - all black).

That's nonsense.

Charles: Get that chip off your shoulder. George Zimmerman had a good reason to follow Tyrone Martin. There had been a string of burglaries in this neighborhood and Zimmerman wanted to know if Martin was the perpetrator.

As evidenced by this case it's the black that's always the violent one and G.Z. was right to carry a weapon to protect himself. Tyrone Martin was not a "kid". It's too convenient to label a grown adult as kid when you want sympathy for him. He was adult enough to start a fight and that's not a "kids" behavior.

Witnesses changing their stories after sudtle inferences from the black community about retaliation only shows how cowardly these people are. What are you so afraid of?. The intimidation and the instigation behind this and any other racially related case has to stop. Let the facts of the case bear the truth. Understand how Florida's stand your ground law works and stop trying to apply a common sense approach to justify hanging zimmerman for this act. Yes, the kid was killed. If the kid is found to have been justifiably killed based on the standards of the law then all you pandering rabble rousers should just deal with it and swallow it like the country had to swallow OJ's aquittal. At least in that regard Karma has placed him where he belonged to begin with. If the facts of the zimmerman case bear out that he wasn't responsible for 2nd degree murder then i guess Karma has done it's job. Of course i am quite sure there will be a re-trial and a new media circus. It won't end until we get the POTUS to call for a national holiday.

Elle,

Yes, he is 'guilty' of shooting TM. However, the question is whether is was justified. Z, or anyone else, is under no obligation to find out the entire life story of someone they feel is a threat before acting. If TM met the criteria (aka the 'triad')of intent, proximity, and means to cause harm (with or without a weapon, this was not a 'child', but a full size human being), then Z was justified in the shooting. If not, as a CCW holder and strong supportor of SYG myslef, lock his a** away.

Z's choice of actions in following TM may not have been what you considered appropiate, but they were legal and even reasonable to some. Is Z a coward? A racist? Perhaps, but it really doesn't matter. In this case, the prosectution would have to prove the rest (not meeting the triad of self defense I stated above) and then throw the racist card on top to help seal the case. If the case is decided (whether guilty/not guilty) merely on the fact that Z is/is not be a racist and not on the merits of the case, then justice will NOT have been served.

Charles-1820634

"White mentality! White looking Zimmerman has the right to stalk a black kid and question him, because he is white. Black kid should be subservant and shuffle and flechit at the beck and call of the white stalker, becuase he is a black kid, with no rights same as a white man!! Did I interpet that right????"

Black mentality! No matter what the scientific statistical data indicates it should be thrown out the window and called racial profiling. No matter that more black men are convicted of felonies per capita than any other racial group in America it is not because of a culture of violence that is generational it is because "the man is keeping him down".

The facts are

1) that community was being hit by a rash of break ins committed according to witness' by black youths.

2) Al Sharpton showed up to sell tshirts and with his track record Zimmerman is more likely to actually be innocent.

3) Zimmerman does not look white he is Latino so tell President Obama that as a Latino I have a son and he looks like Zimmerman.

4) 20 something black men gang raped an 11 year old Latina girl in Texas and no one says anything about that.

Victor

20 something black men gang raped an 11 year old Latina girl in Texas and no one says anything about that.

Youre absolutely wrong. Brother Quanell X of the New Black Panther Party had plenty to say about it, he said it was the little girls fault that the brothers raped her.

It's too convenient to label a grown adult as kid when you want sympathy for him. He was adult enough to start a fight and that's not a "kids" behavior.

Seriously? Starting a fight (going with your assumption Martin did) is not a "kid's" behavior? When was the last time you were on a school playground? Fights start all the time! Some of them are VICIOUS! I would say just the opposite ... a fight *IS* kid's behavior. Not getting into a fight is adult behavior.

I agree somethings up.

Yup! The facts of the story. That's what's up! Doesn't make GZ look so innocent now huh? On a side note the black panthers are like 20 deep they aren't scaring anybody except you two it seems.

Lol....yes those new black panthers are terrifying!

Rachel3673200,it happens all the time,even victims change their testimony,one man just got out of prison last week after serving twenty years for rape because the so-called victims said that they were forced to lie,I take it that you do not watch much news.

Perhaps these people have changed their stories because they don't want to be charged with perjury once they are called to the stand SHOULD there be a trial. It could also be possible that they were asked if they were absolutely certain, without a doubt, that they witnessed what was stated in their original testimony? After reflecting on that night, they realized that they were not absolutley certain, and the stories were then changed. This, in and of itself, raises questions to the credibility of these witnesses, and may or may not hurt Zimmerman's case, because I'm sure the Prosecution will use that against these witnesses, again, SHOULD there be a trial.

It is the threat of violence that's influenced all of them. Look at the facts: The New Black Panthers put out a death threat on George Zimmerman and the police/prosecutors did absolutely nothing. So if you're a witness you have to be thinking the N.B.P. will be at the trial and be stalking you if you testify against the black mob.

It's a form of perjury to change their statements this late in the game. I hope the police remind of them that. Witness tampering charges should be brought against whoever is doing this. It's got to be a pro-black individual like the Martins attorneys.

America Today-Anthony

Its amazing how clear a person can be at the scene, but they arent exactly sure now. Granted I wouldnt want to live my life looking over my shoulder, having rocks thrown at my house, and my kids beaten up on a daily basis at school.

This story just gets better and better when exposing our broken justice system.

The only thing which has changed is someone "listened" to the witnesses - instead of couching or coercsing them to the conclusion they wanted to hear. Refer back to the background information which marred the begining of this odessy - and taints every subsequent facet of the case.

Sanford Police Department has a volumous recent history of witness manipuation, outright neglection of facts. They have gone through at least 3 changes in leadership in the last ten years - two in the last three. We are not talking about skimming money from parking meter collections either. People have been killed, maimed and witnesses beaten ... to allow corrupt officers to remain on the force after committing Capital crimes.

In this case, witnesses have complained that they were ignored or their testimony changed to fit the script which aided George.

The only difference in what is being posted now is the unvarnished version which was garnered by "Listening " to the witnesses, with out leading them to a conclusion beneficial to either for or against either George's explaination, the police version or totally agreeing with version which confirms the version of evidence which was reconstructed based on evidence, observation and character evaluations of the main parties.

These witnesses have nothing to gain in retelling their verisons of events. Except to see justice done.

America Today-Anthony

Its amazing how clear a person can be at the scene, but they arent exactly sure now. Granted I wouldnt want to live my life looking over my shoulder, having rocks thrown at my house, and my kids beaten up on a daily basis at school.

This story just gets better and better when exposing our broken justice system.

The only thing which has changed is someone "listened" to the witnesses - instead of couching or coercsing them to the conclusion they wanted to hear. Refer back to the background information which marred the begining of this odessy - and taints every subsequent facet of the case.

Sanford Police Department has a volumous recent history of witness manipuation, outright neglection of facts. They have gone through at least 3 changes in leadership in the last ten years - two in the last three. We are not talking about skimming money from parking meter collections either. People have been killed, maimed and witnesses beaten ... to allow corrupt officers to remain on the force after committing Capital crimes.

In this case, witnesses have complained that they were ignored or their testimony changed to fit the script which aided George.

The only difference in what is being posted now is the unvarnished version which was garnered by "Listening " to the witnesses, with out leading them to a conclusion beneficial to either for or against either George's explaination, the police version or totally agreeing with version which confirms the version of evidence which was reconstructed based on evidence, observation and character evaluations of the main parties.

These witnesses have nothing to gain in retelling their verisons of events. Except to see justice done.

Because they are cowards who have become minorities in their own communities. Because angry blacks apparently scare these cowards to death. It's because so many liberal white people have some form of self hatred toward their own skin tone and compensate by idolizing people of color to the point of denigrating their own selves. I did not participate in any slavery related activities and as far as i know, no-one alive today has either. The history of slavery was a vile stain on the world but when are people going to stop apoligizing for ancient history. This is why racism won't go away. It is constantly regurgitated daily. If all things are truly equal, then why is their a latent fear in this country of upsetting the minority community. Every community matters and every issue matters. to place more importance on a case based on anything but the facts only keeps the racism wagon rolling. This country has become an embarrasment.

Beowolf,

you supposition about the validity of the revised statements is just that, supposition. Both the defense and the prosecution will have a field day in court with it. Should be, at the least, entertaining.

"These witnesses have nothing to gain in retelling their verisons of events. Except to see justice done."

Having dealt with testimony before, I must say I find that statement a bit naive. I have seen changed statements/testimony range from the absolute truth to complete fabrication, with little (other than non-witness evidence) to help decide which is which. Many things play into changing one's statement/testimony and, unfortunately, in my experience, the truth has little to do with it.

In Texas 20 some black men gang raped an 11 year old Mexican girl and zero mainstream coverage on that story in fact the New York times was accused of blaming the victim an 11 year old of asking for gang rape by 20 year old men. When the case is mentioned race is kept out of it.

As a Latino I feel zero "white guilt" towards the Black community.

Enough is enough.

At some point whites and browns are going to push back hard and that will be tragic because a lot of people are going to be hurt.

The media and this government need to realize they should quit playing with matches before they burn the house down.

Yes, I'm sure that, the very night it happened, looking at a dead black kid and a beaten up Hispanic guy ('cause that's what Zimmerman looks like) in an area of break-ins and crime, they decided to commit pre-perjury to the police. Four independent witnesses.

Not get involved would have been more like it. But lie to the police? Much more likely they're lying now.

Check out the video of the Black Panthers prowling outside the polls to keep whites away. Would you want to live with that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4MTQVMatW0

.... At some point whites and browns are going to push back hard and that will be tragic because a lot of people are going to be hurt...

Poor deluded fool...

Just who do you think is building the Border fence?

Whites and Browns? Really? Say something in Spanish then see how many Friends you have left?

Must be something in the water...

No I think that those are Four Smart People, They change the story now so now what they said is no longer credible, That means they do not Help or Hurt the case so whatever side someone is on there is no reason for these people to fell threatened.

Again these were witnesses favorable to Zimmerman!!! When they are questioned and they admit that they have in fact lied in their original questioning, the jury will only see that they lied to try and save Zimmerman. That leaves no corroborating testimony and we have seen what a pathetic lier Zimmerman really is. Guilty and done!!

Charles - Zimmerman lied? When? Proof? Any? Uh oh.

I don't think bank accounts as much as being threatened.

Zimmerman will get off simply because the police let him go immediately after the shooting. If the police didn't think he was guilty the defense will restate that over and over again. The jurors have to be influenced by what the police found to the truth.

Charles

Why would they lie to save Zimmerman, they didnt even know him. The evidence will show that Martin was the attacker, and Zimmerman has every right to defend himself.

The unfortunate facts of this case are the regretable failure of Sanford Police in properly investigation of this case.

The reality of this malfesence ... is the state was called in to correct a matter it should never needed to be involved in the 1st place. Somehow, Sanford has gotten the reputation that Justice has a price, you pay the price and you get "favorable" justice.

Its past time that all the citizens of Sanford were represented by the Officers, agencies that are supposed to serve their needs.

Take the inititive, research Sanford PD over the last 10 years, you see why the failure to prosecute George was not an accident and likely not even due to bungling, inept policing - This case was genetically modified to fit a preconcived outcome.

Even the imagery of small town corruption has a basis in fact. Sanford deserves a real police force - one which the citizrey can trust. over the last few months, since Trayvons death - they have made strides toward cleaning up the septic remanets of past misdeeds. Its a difficult decision, but I'm thinking The State prosecution will need to rip the bandaid off and let the sunlight in. That may be what is needed to get ultimate justice for Trayvon and possibly expose the "justice for hire cult which had existed before and was called upon once again to deny justice for Trayvon, and all the others who suffered before him.

Beowolf -

I haven't done any research on the goings on of the SPD. But, i must ask, what happens if the State investigates and finds exculpatory evidence finding favor for Zimmerman? I ask, because, the arguments you put forth in early posts do not seem to center around merely finding the truth (whatever that may be)but in your unwavering assertion that Z is guilty of unjustified homicide.

I think the reality is that we will never know what happened. Right or wrong, I think Z will walk unless some new, credible, uncensored, untainted evidence shows up proving hi guilt. Unless that happens, I think reasonable doubt has been cast (even withan affirmative defense such as this one).

I lived in a small town in the South in the late 80's...it wouldn't surprise me if Beoweolf is right on the mark. The "joke" there was that a newspaper reporter was interviewing the sheriff whose divers had just pulled the body of a young black man out of a canal. It was wrapped in heavy chains from shoulders to feet, so the reporter asked, "What do you suspect happened here, Sheriff?" To which he replied, "Looks like that boy stole more chain than he could swim with"...

When you combine prejudiced police attitudes and questioning, racial bias on the part of the "eyewitnesses" who may have tried to protect Zimmerman on the night of the shooting (after all, didin't he just get rid of one of the obviously guilty criminals who had been breaking into homes in their community?), and poor police investigation....well, this is what you end up with!

Of course, the other possibility is that the accounts of the events that were told by the eyewitnesses the night of the shooting were the truth, and they have since been threatened (or bribed) by one side or the other, and decided to change their stories either for personal gain ...or personal safety for them and/or their families.

Either way, it looks like a lot of "reasonable doubt" has been introduced into the mix. Guilty or not, it will be difficult for the prosecution to prove its case.

Exactly. I think it was Cutcher.

She got 20 years for firing a weapon in the commission of a crime and the warning shot she fired was directed towards her ex and her children.

So I take it you have no plans to visit our wonderful state anytime soon,

KevinH

She got 20 years for firing a weapon in the commission of a crime and the warning shot she fired was directed towards her ex and her children.

Commission of what crime? She fired the gun into the ceiling and not toward anyone.

KevinH:

Wrong! She fired at the ceiling. But even if she fired at him and the children, he admitted he abused her and other women he'd been in relationships with. The children lied for him; did they help him abuse her too???? Just wondering????

Actually all he had to say was "go f*ck yourself, cowboy" - that's what he would have heard from me. Zimmerman had absolutely no right to interrogate, harrass, stalk, or shoot anyone.

'Interrogate', 'harass', 'stalk' are words that don't appear to apply per the evidence so far. There is no evidence of any interrogation, no harassment, no stalking - look up the definitions and how they apply to the lawful description. It may be easier to throw words around, but it is not accurate - it serves no one and it certainly doesn't serve justice. 'Shooting' came about because of an assault. Let's wait and see who instigated that assault. Make sure you are interested in justice based on facts, not on vengence based on emotion.

Following someone without a legitimate purpose IS stalking and that IS harrassment. Whether Zimmerman interrogated Martin is unknown now but I responded to a post that suggested Martin should have been a good little boy and explained his presence to someone who had no right to follow, no right to question. YOU have now assumed that an assault caused the shooting - there's no proof of that without looking into the mind of Zimmerman. The serving of justice begins at home, too bad Zimmerman didn't stay there with his hypnotic prescription (temazepam) and its serious side effects.

In the real world...

All Trayvon had to say is "Are you following me, - why?". At that point, if he didn't like the answer and The stalker didn't present a reasonable answer, he could have either ignored him or offered a request, "Don't follow me any more, you are making me nervous!".

In the real world...

Zimmerman had absolutely no right to interrogate, harrass, stalk, or ultimately shoot anyone.

In the real world...

If you have a "Gated community" you need to enforce those rights, with posted signs, controlled access. Roaming, uncontrolled guards are not an asset - they are, as seen here, a liablity. Nothing noted so far shows that George was indentifiable as a "Guard" ... even as a "watcher" - he was never ID-ed.

Beoweolf-Can't you come up with anything new to say?? You repeat the same things over and over again on every single story that is written about GZ. It's really getting old! Haven't you and Jo An exchanged e-mails and phone numbers yet so you can have a ginormous bitch fest 1 on 1?? WTF is you dog in this fight anyway?? Pure boredom and no discernible life beyond the internet??

No, actually, Trayvon was taller, but not bigger in the weight aspect of it. I've seen many a short men, take out taller men. It's nothing for a 200+ lb male to trip up 158lb 17 year old. In the video preceding the incident, there is no indication that this young man was looking to cause harm to anyone. He went to the store, spoke with the cashier, paid for his items, and went on his way. One would have to ask, if this was your 17 year old, regardless of his/her behavior in school, what would you do if this happened to them? Would you not defend your child? Would you agree that your child deserved to be hunted and gunned down like an animal? Just as one says Trayvon should have spoke up, Zimmerman could have very well done the same. Telling the young man that he was a part of the neighborhood watch, had not seen him before, and just wanted to know what business he had at the complex? At that point, Trayvon could have then explained to Zimmerman why he was there, and where he was headed. We all can say what could have, should have, or might have happened, but none of us truly knows what happened. There are 3 people who know what happened. Zimmerman, Trayvon, who is decesased, and GOD, everyone else, is only speculating. I feel sorry for some of the people that says this 17 year old got what he deserved, and pray that God has mercy on your soul, because hate is not welcomed in the Kingdom of heaven, and you better hope he doesn't punish you with the same kind of situation. God doesn't like ugly, and some of you adults have such cold ugly hearts, and are so filled with such hatred it is sad, and I'm absolutely certain that you are molding your child to continue with that hatred. We can't move forward, if adults like you, don't lay down your hate, so that we, as a Nation, can focus on what's really important. In this case, let the evidence or lack there of, speak for itself, and stop speculating. We have a judicial system for a reason, and Zimmerman has the right to due process in spite of what we may think. Please, just give it a rest!!!

Some things to think about, Neighborhood Watch is not "Neighborhood Watch and Pursue" for a reason. After calling the police Zimmerman had done his job. He was a wanna be cop and he was carrying a gun. Trevon Martin was a 17 year old that was just walking while black. Witnesses are not very reliable. There have been many studies that have shown this. Witnesses changing their stories is nothing new. Most likely it is not due to fear, just the simple fact that they are not sure of what they saw or heard said. There will never be any true "closure" in this case.

stop blowin smoke up my ass. the pd would not make a person go in harms way. 2012.....not the movies buddy.