That's no different than civilians who are told NO when they seek mental health treatment. It really underlines the precarious state of the mental health system.

I have experienced what you describe in my family, as a civillian

the difference people are trying to point out is that their military service CAUSES the wound, just like a physical wound, then they can't get it taken care of properly or have negative repercussions if they try to. They got the wound (I'm talking psychological) in service to our country.

it's a double whammy...I especially sad/unfair/terrible and since I am a citizen I bear a bit of a feeling of responsiblity/guilt as they are supposedly acting, in the military, in OUR name collectively. THough we didn't want them to go to Iraq, many of us, enough people voted for the dude who sent them there that the election was disputed and he slipped in thru the door in 2000.

Gore as VP was very tested and proven. People didn't think he was "cool" or he rubbed them the wrong way a bit. So they voted for this other guy.

At the time most people thought Afghanistan was a good idea, but there was no exit strategy nor adequate troops for a very long time...so the HOW got screwed up by the same dude so many people voted for in 2004.

I think - on average - the mental pain must be multiple folds stronger for military personnel than civilians. It's especially sad considering that it was mostly avoidable.

Laurali, what does your fourth paragraph have to do with ANYTHING relating to this article? Are you implying policies would be different if Gore had been elected? This is not a forum for your political sulking and is not the point of this article.

Mental Health issues can manifest them selves in so many different ways, and there is no scale which you can use to say which are more traumatic than others.

Mental Health is a game of dollars, we have elected people in the last 10 years who think they are doing what they got elected for, those elected officials represent two major groups; citizens who place their tax burden above human health (physical and mental) and Insurance companies.

The Insurance companies have doctors convinced that the doctors are miracle workers and can get a one legged, blind, half human half goat, back on the job in 3 days. Oh, don't forget to put them on 17 different drugs either, big pharma has to get their cut.

I better stop here, this hits way to close to home... I wouldn't do my self in, I'd make a political statement and take out those who denied me the benefits their little pamphlets said I was entitled to (lying bastards).

Congratulations laurali...you were the first post to blame bush....Bush wasn't even weaned when i came home from vietnam....there were and are still thousands of these veterans having mental problems, and you want to blame him to?...Gore, that sluggo is an idiot... besides that, what the hell do you know about this "mental health" issue....get a life....

Ken it doesnt'

sorry about that...I digressed. Only on a few hours sleep. Normally I think about how things are related but I don't type them (blush)

Whats really sad, is that there never were any weapons of mass destruction.

They died for Corporate America and the lie they were fighting for freedom.

The soldier just tried to be good men and women who were duped.

So sad...How many politicians sons and daughters were killed?

Pittard didn't change heart, he just got caught and he will never understand the crushing grip of depression. Reporting won't change until patients are treated like humans and not immediately stripped of their shoelaces and addressed like three year-olds.

Hey CoyoteHunter.. interesting that you brought up GW Bush and vietnam and lied about him not being "weaned". Correction pal.. at the beginning of US ground forces arrival in Nam.. Bush was 19... and consequently his father got him into the air national guard so that he would not be drafted... during which Bush went AWOL for ONE YEAR. Try again.

What a lot of people don't seem to get, is that the depth of despair is so great that the instinct not to do something fatal to oneself is overcome. Most psychiatrists try to put a label(s) on a patient and dispense the "right" pills. The practice is also to hold patients at arms length and not get involved. A more holistic approach is needed. These soldiers need a good friend they can trust that can help them get through their agony without having it all put on paper.Psychiatric files should have two parts, one only a mental health professional can read and another for documentation about the illness. If you have something that needs to be said, but don't want everybody and their brother to have access, you may well keep it inside where it will kill you. Trusting some aloof doctor with you nightmare(s) just isn't going to happen. These guys need a person with warmth and a caring attitude that can get "impossible" things done and are empowered to really help. Someone that can help them through the process of coming to grips with their problem(s) and modify their environment in any way necessary. The hell with the cost, if every soldier was put on leave periodically for a mental health evaluation, not only would they have access without seeking it, the whole force would be better equipped to handle the rigors of war, some of the atrocities might be avoided too. Pre and post deployment evaluations should be routine and include everybody.Discussing ones mental state should be elevated to a professional duty, rather than being stigmatized. Our evolution did not prepare us for bullets and high explosives and as humans, all soldiers would benefit from a period focused on dealing with the effects that war has on their minds.

Tinco--You are correct. No different than civilian mental health problems. Families need to buck up to reality. Sad that these things happen, but they do.

I haven't been there and call me cold but I do believe it's the easy way out and a selfish act. They transfer their pain upon their loved ones giving no consideration of the years of grief they will have to endure.

As a member of the Armed Forces we volunteered to give our beloved nation a blank check. From my experience, the war overseas is not the real war. The real war is at home. I served in Iraq 2009-2010 and my deployment experience was a piece of cake compared to what I'm enduring right now.

Let's focus on the war back home and I'm going to use my self as an example. Like a large number of service members, I'm too facing a divorce. I opt to get out of an abusive relationship. The person who I was married to used to abuse me verbal, mental, emotional, and it also got to physical. I was in fear of calling 911 because I was under the threat of him taking my daughter to overseas. Now I don't have any visual evidence of any domestic abuse because I cried for help too late. To make matters worst, this man was awarded unsupervised overnight visitation without posting any bond, without collecting passports from his family or at least collect a copy so I can show to law enforcement. The judge's decision hurt more than when this man sodomized me with I still have stiches in my vaginal area from giving birth. Once my daughter is abducted, I can't go overseas in attempt to rescue her because I will be considered AWOL and face UCMJ actions but the other party can walk freely in his country.

Talking from other service member's experience, I know soldiers who their spouses or a greedy family member clean their bank account while they were serving overseas and then divorced them or abandon them. I know soldiers who have to pay BAH to their cheating spouses while they have to live in poor conditions. I know spouses who use and abuse the term PTSD to take the children away from the service member when the service member is capable of taking care of their children. I know soldiers who has to go back to an abusive relationship because of the fear of lossing their children or losing their Security Clearance. I know service members to can't cry for help because of lossing their job, security clearance, and their children. These are just examples.

To make matters worst, only UCJM applies to the service members and not to the family members abusing them. Leaving them vulnerable to a civilian court with little or without support. For example: How in the world can they afford an attorney when their family member has cleaned their bank account? In most states a service member won't qualify to hire a bona-fide attorney because of their income.

With this being said, the war is not just overseas. It is not adjusting back to their lives because with these examples, the life left behind prior going down range is not the new reality they are facing now.

Why would we treat suicide the same as a combat death? Suicide is the opposite of doing your duty. In fact, the act of suicide is giving the other team a win. Couldn't we call that treason. To say the military should treat them the same as someone killed while in combat is offensive. The military has (if the tax payers only knew) multiple programs, facilities, and personnel prepared to help suicidal people. Yet, you blame them because the person with suicidal tendencies doesn't have the courage to reach out for help. The armed service is no place for the mentally ill, so getting treatment may be difficult and may even result in discharge. Coping skills don't come with the uniform. I have lost friends to the enemy and I have lost a friend to suicide... I loved them all, but I know why their deaths were treated differently by the military. Anything else would be an insult to those dying in the line of duty.

Forward he cried from the rear as the front flanks died.

It would be ironic if Dick Cheney got his new heart from one of these soldiers...

"Bring the boys back home.

Bring the boys back home.

Don't leave the children on their own.

Bring the boys back home."

Pink Floyd - The Wall "Bring The Boys Back Home".

Mr. moore,

"Coping skills don't come with the uniform." True but the skill needed to kill DOES come with the uniform and the military is the sole provider of this skill. The fact that by their very existance they put people at extreme risk of personal injury or death but have no responsibility for what those experiences PRODUCE is the same as saying the person who pulls the trigger of a weapon is not responsible for what the bullet does.

john dilla,

Please learn to spell and control your stupidity before you post crap like you did. Your ranting and raving makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

Mr. Moore.

What hasn't been said is that the treatment of service men and women is done with medications that actually make them worse. They are given sleeping pills which have been shown to put a person into a state that is not aware but functioning. They can get up, move around, and yes shoot themselves without being aware of what they are doing. Amebien does this. Then they are given anti depression meds that can actually cause depression to get worse, and cause suicidal thoughts. There are so many cases of ptsd that the army can't see them all. When help is sought out, it is unavailable. Soldiers are often on hold for up to two hours trying to get help, only to find there are no appointments available. Many of these soldiers come home after being on duty 10 on and one off for an entire deployment. They have been on an adrenaline rush for a year and come home to an Rx solution to a problem that is only made worse by the
meds.

"The military has (if taxpayers only knew) multiple programs, facilities, and personnel prepared to help suicidal people." Really? The Army sent a Major to Ft. Hood to walk in the footsteps of one of their brightest and best who committed suicide after serving in Iraq, a West Point Apache pilot. The Army gave him meds which caused the situation described above. He sought help three times the day he shot himself, after taking Zoloft and Ambien . As you can tell this is personal for me, I married him to his wife who now lives with his actions and the lack of care he received. I believe the combination of combat, lack of treatment, improper treatment, and a "tough it out" attitude found in the military destroyed a great man’s life. And yes this has been going on for a long time. The Vietnam vets have had to find their own meds to survive what they went through, because no one cared. It is time for us to put pressure on the
spending cutters and give our soldiers the care they need. They are making huge sacrifices while we ask
for more tax cuts, and a smaller military. I believe that those who want to lower taxes and cut back need to check their patriotism at the door.

I remember a town hall meeting when Obama and McCain were asked this question, “Our service men and women are making great sacrifices for us, what sacrifices would you ask us to make for our country?” I remember saying that whoever answered that question would get my vote. Neither one did, they both skirted the question, as are the rest of us.

@jos-3790481

The weak person here is you jos. For you to jump on a comment board during memorial day weekend (when people are mourning their lost) and to make such inflammable remarks such as those takes a coward. I hope you dont call yourself a christian because a true christian would understand the meaning of loss and wouldnt act like a selfish punk like yourself. If the country is to fall, its because of simple minded bafoons like yourself who seek to divide our nation.

P.S. I believe you belong to the westboro baptist church aka (ignorant minded cult of loonies)

@john dilla

Like your a real man for jumping on a comment board and spewing your BS? Do you always hide behind a computer when you talk out of your rear? I take it your a republican and a racist? Your just another loser behind a computer who thinks they know how to run the world because they play video games. You should get real! Go to your local Veterans Hall and say that junk and see if they dont hang you outside for it.

What I find telling is in the cases cited in this article, the suicide victims had mental health problems long before they were ever deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. There problems were not related to their military service but to other factors. To treat them the same as those who were truly injured and died as a result of their service is wrong. It is not that I do not feel for their families, but there is a point where you need to look at the real cause. I also did not see in any of these cases where the families made any attempt to have these people committed for observation. They simply allowed the person to not get help for themselves and then choose to blame it on the military. Much of this blame is coming from their on guilt at the feeling that they themselves did not do enough to help their loved ones. Their guilty need to assign blame elsewhere should be looked at very carefully. The military has many programs to help soldiers with mental health issues. The military does conduct evaluations of soldiers before and after deployments. If some soldier choose to hide their problems and not seek the help that is offered because of some fear that it will effect their career it is hard to place the blame on the military. A lot of people suffer a lot of problems because they put their career above their own needs and their own health. This is not exclusive to the military. As the old saying goes, you can not help those who are not willing to help themselves. Until people recognize that their own health and well being is more important than their career there will continue to be these suicides and there is little the military or anyone else can do to stop it.

While there has been considerable improvement in how the military deals with mental illness and suicide, the fact is, there is still a lot of work to be done.

While not all soldier or veteran suicides are a result of service related incidents that the individual couldn't deal with, far too many are, and will likely to continue to be.

Just as I explained when discussing Junior Seau's recent suicide, part of the problem is their fellow team members want NO PART of dealing with those whose bodies or minds need repair or simply can't continue to deal with the stress and demands of such a physically and mentally demanding lifestyle, because they are afraid it could happen to them (my friends called it the Superman complex, and it is part of why far too many soldiers get killed in accidents from reckless behavior AFTER combat deployments, because they think they're invincible), instead of accepting the reality that IT WILL happen to them (at the very least the physical part) and trying to prepare for that day (I know I didn't, but have accepted the fact my body is no longer capable of playing Rambo since my separation) is far better than pretending it will or could never happen.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends of all who have made this tragic decision on this Memorial Day weekend, because far too many of them are casualties of war, even though their names will never be inscribed in stone on a war memorial.

Mr. (Rev?)Long,

Yes really, but I never said they were perfect programs, facilities or people. If you are going to use perfect as measurement, you've won this discussion. By the perfect standard we have all failed. I am sorry for your loss, but my point stands. He isn't a combat casualty and to say so diminishes the significance of those losing their lives in combat. We do not give the Purple Heart to service members almost sustaining wounds in action. You can show this downed pilot your respect any day of the year, but Memorial Day isn't about him.

Perhaps I am beating a dead horse here as I have not read every single posting on this page. But as a former member of the military I can only say that mental care is as available and as free in the military as is medical and dental care. And there is no reason that these men and women that kill themselves in the military could not have sought help. I served in Operation Desert Storm / Shield and mental care was something that after the war was pointed out to us as readily available. I also had the misfortune of having one of my best friends die while I was serving. After his death I received care without being asked. I am not belittling the pain of these losses or that it is a serious problem. But help is available in many forms.

And I do have to agree with those here that are saying that it is not the same as a combat death, it just isn't. It is a simple case of apples and oranges.

wouldn't it be most like a heart attack during strenous engagement (then the person is found to have heart disease as many would be)? That seems most analogous. Something that might have been ongoing but not treated or caught by military doctors while it possibly could be dealt with. Rather, for some or many it might have been preventable/treatable if caught and treated in time.

except that one could argue that military service itself might more directly cause the disease (depression/PTSD) that lead to death, unlike heart disease. Sometimes the PTSD is more apt to develop in those that have a prior suseptibilityand/or family history. What other life threatening conditions (physical, for analogy purposes) are triggered by military service even if there were an underlying suseptiblity. (there isn't always, I'm not sure of how often there is) That would be a perfect analogy..

Pending that, an accident/friendly fire incident is the best. Being in the military caused you to have the condition (being in wrong place wrong time) that caused your death. Your service killed you.

Does the military distinguish accidental deaths from those in combat (gunfire etc)?

If the recruiters would be honest enough to disclose the carnage expected from these guys during their service, there would only be the gun-ho natural killers staying in the military. Killing is murder unless one fears for his or her life or the lives of unharmed civilians they are protecting. Whatever military orders may be, I suspect many ethical young men have issues when killing innocent civilians ( expected casualties ) by military standards. These poor unfortunate guys have been mislead and not told the truth. They certainly deserve what ever benefits may come to their families or their memory as they are victims, just like the others. No difference.

Laurali....go to the spa, get your nails done....leave the ptsd issue for those of us who live it...

JayEll, You're right! I wish the military and politicians would agree with you. When I was a WAC (Vietnam era) two things we learned really, really fast - don't use Military doctors for mental problems or suspected STDs because they would affect your career negatively. (If men got an STD, they got a shot, a stern look, and were sent back to work. If a woman got, or suspected she had, an STD, she got a shot and booted out of the military! And if anyone went to the Army shrinks for anything, it did not bode well for them!) And now, the military is busy reclassifying PTSD into a Personality Disorder so they don't have to pay for help!!!

I used to think serving in the Military should be a condition of Citizenship. There was a time when I bought the package that the Military would take care of it's own. No longer. And it hurts. They will take care of their own at their convenience. Period. What a sad comment on our Country!

Isn't war great! You can thank Bush and his war crimes for this. No war is a good war. EVER! I still remember the idiot(Bush) standing on the ship and telling the world that we won the war against Iraq. Smiling and clapping going on. No one wins a war. LOL He has to be one of the stupidest leaders this world has ever seen. Who do you really blame? The man that sent these kids into arms way. Its that simple for me. And i'm sorry for all those families that had husbands, fathers, brothers, sisters, uncles,etc die for in my opinion only.... for no reason. They're are plenty of other ways to bring justice to the corrupt without the killing of innocent people. Again its my opinion and no one needs to comment or ridicule my faith that all people are held accccountable(Bush)for their actions. When is this guy(Bush) going to be brought to justice and pay for his crimes against the innocent. As for suicides in the service...although sad indeed and understandable, expect more of the same. PSTD equals weak minds and warped minds without consequence.

laurali,

"Does the military distinguish accidental deaths from those in combat (gunfire etc)?" In actuality - yes they do.

"Sometimes the PTSD is more apt to develop in those that have a prior suseptibilityand/or family history." Of all the stupid remarks I've read in all the posts on this site, you and you alone have managed to hit rock bottom! PTSD is NOT GENETIC! Good God!!!!! (Oh ya, that's only for "analogy purposes").

Laurali: I tend to suspect that you are a psychologist that works for the VA. The VA killed off more people that the VC and NVA ever did. The most casualties of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars happened right here in the US, by a multiple of ten. Good job VA!

John Mitchell, your comment makes no sense.

It's really disgusting what they do to you guys. I hope that you feel better and getting all the help that you need now.

I am so sorry it was like this for you!

thank you for your service--I know it sounds cliche but I want to acknowledge it somehow. And for your sacrifice.

I just watched that 1946 War Dept John Huston documentary, linked above I think, that was rereleased. It was about treatment for PTSD and surpressed by the military. Im not sure your up to it, but it is somewhat sanitized so might not be triggering.

It might make you angry though. In almost 70 yrs as a country we have not moved on this AT ALL, seems to me. These men were treated reasonably compassionately (within the confines of the way doctors were bossy back then I think) and taught they were injured in war. ON discharged they thought society should accept them ok, they were hopeful/positive. Perhaps naive.

we are not more accepting about mental illness, seems to me, now than they were then. We as a society have not moved. THe military seems not to have moved, reflecting us. Instead, they could have LEAD society to acceptance.

In my very close family there is PTSD from civillian causes. It is not understood, and stigmatized and the person does not tell people they have it because then you get into having to explain if what happened to you justifies your issue. IT has been impossible to get the correct treatment. It sucks. 70 yrs after this film was made, society has not seemingly moved at all.

You deserve better. You were wounded in service. I am so sorry, it is so unjust xo

Never regret reaching out for help. You did the right thing.

In time, you will heal yourself without the help of these sub standard clinics. When in the military, you no longer belong to yourself. Your actions are dictated by others therefore, no guilt is on your shoulders. As to the bad memories or guilt...you must let them go as a bad time. Move on and do not look back. You are now free I hope and able to make your own decisions.

@JohnMitchell - Normally, I can empathize with a person to an extent, even if I don't fully agree or understand, yet you are so insentient, I feel sorry you. It must be a terrible life - living in apathy, always angry because with you it's "always someone else's fault" that they don't like you.

There are times when I wish that I could resurrect my friends who passed away too young, using your breath, because from where I sit, seeing you bully a person you don't even know, you don't deserve the life you have, better people are buried and gone, yet you are here to put others down. Shame on you.

@Julian - I'm glad you are still here, your voice, telling your experiences will help many people who, like you have thought of suicide and have not found the VA to be a benefit (if it was VA). Keep raising your voice and take one day at a time, thank you for sharing your story.

Laurali....PTSD in civilian life...take off the rose colored sunglasses you idiot!!!... what can cause that in civilian life?...go live in combat for 6-9 months, after that life is a peice of cake....

Coyotehunter: PTSD does happen in civilian life for rape and assault victims, etc. However, going into combat or seeing those around you injured and killed is definitely a cause for PTSD. I doubt that life is a piece of cake after going to a combat zone for 6-9 months.

Coyotehunter

PTSD has been around for years before it was named during the Vietnam war. When women suffered it, it wasn't even named. When men started having the exact same symptoms as rape/abuse victims, well, it had to have a name, and so it became PTSD. (During WWI & II it was 'shell shock). So, yes, PTSD is in civilian life. And has been ever since men began raping/abusing other people! Trauma is trauma.

Julian, Without knowing your AFSC or rank, it is difficult to respond completely, but I'll give it a try. I am sorry you are mentaly ill, but that is your problem and it shouldn't allow you to put my life in danger. If you were too short, fat, old, weak, intellectualy challenged, unable to shoot straight, or have a miriad of other short comming, you would be unsuitable or disqualified from service. I am pleased you self-identified, because it is tough job taking care of fellow service members and people with suicidal tendencies are nearly impossible to detect (even with the annual training). You may complain about the "poor excuse for a rehabilitation clinic" and the constant observation (suicide watch), Weeds-and-Seeds detail, and losing your clearance, but you are alive. You cost the tax payers and the USAF plenty, but it looks like your life was saved. I would say it is time for you to once again take responsibility for your own life and stop fretting about being unsuitable for the Armed Service... It isn't as easy as it looks on T.V..

Coyotehunter,
PTSD has existed in civilian life for many years. Police officers get it, firefighters get it, rape victims, bank clerks who stare into a bank robbers gun at close range......they all can show symptoms of PTSD. What goes through the mind of a train driver when someone stands in front of a train deliberately? Stop thinking that the only "valid" PTSD case comes from military action. It is a problem for all of us that needs to receive the proper treatment. Afterall, all soldiers eventually enter civilian life, so wouldn't it be more helpful if PTSD had wider recognition in our communites?

rain,

"And has been ever since men began raping/abusing other people! Trauma is trauma."

Rather a sexist remark since you imply that only men cause trauma. Or are women capable of the same?

laurali,

"Im not sure your up to it, but it is somewhat sanitized so might not be triggering."

So I can conclude by your statement that you actually saw the ORIGINAL version of it? If not then you haven't a clue whether it is or isn't. The problem with these forums is that people can make rediculous statements about anything and not know what they are talking about thus becoming "experts".

john doing,

Real intelligent comment! Consider making more like that when you get out of mommy and daddys' basement.

Unfortunately this so called 'Treatment' was rather typical for those in the military who tried to get help in various Mental Health Clinics; especially if they experience more sever mental health problems. It seemed to be a mandate to be rid of such costly patients when I finally retired from the military ... near the end of the Clinton years. I only added that last comment since I know for a fact from personal experience that neither Political Party treats our military people any differently.

Yeah, sure, why not? We've completely bastardized everything else in this country.

You sir are part of the problem. Stay classy.

I'm sorry your statement just landed on me like a toddler stamping her foot "now!"

I think the calculation is that it would in the long run cost more lives to bring them home tomorrow then next year when many/most are coming home...arent' we supposed to be totally out by 2014?

I don't know the facts on the ground, no one does...the facts that Obama does know becaues he is President. The assessment by experts overall probably is that staying another year will keep Afghanistan from collapsing completely (or enhances the chance that it won't ENOUGH to make it worth it) and if A. collapses El Quida might reserge in the area. Don't think that Romney would bring him home faster...no way (he was my governor).

Obama is not a hawk, Dean M. He's a President and he knows things we don't know when he makes strategic decisions in which he feels, based on ALL of what he knows, that are in the best interest OVERALL AND IN THE LONGTERM for our country, even UNPOPULAR ones.

Mr. Paul, if he'd been President, might make decisions out of principal that were against the US longterm best interest, including the interest in protecting lives against terrorism.

I completely agree with the sentiment. My heart says GET THEM OUT NOW. ANd most of my being. But I see the other side as well, obviously.

Go vote for Paul DM, waste your vote. He'll never be President and I think even if some of his views like on war are laudable in the idealistic way overall they may not work in the actual world...where countries and economies are interlinked.

Laurali....Just what does Nobama know?...and what does he know about the best interest and overall good for this country?....He hasn't even come close to doing anything worth while in 3 years, whats he going to do in another 4 years?....You better get out of the house and turn off pmsnbc....

For the Military Industry it is worth to send 50-100 thousand young men to their death every 20-30 years. There's plenty room in our cemetiries.

Coyote,

I'll telll you what obama will do in the next four years - he will make more money; his wifey will make more money AND more rich people contacts to better serve THEM. Other then that - he (and it) won't do anything except change is mind more often then he changes his drawers.

doing,

"...it is worth to send..." and "...men to to their death"?! HUH?! First part makes no sense and try men is plural therefore it would be deathS not death. I see we've wasted enough money on your education that could have been better spent by the military.

Diana,

On Monday I will be attending mass, as everyone should on memorial day, and I will pray for your brother and every other veteran whether living or deceased. It is only a small token of my appreciation but I believe it makes the greatest difference in the world, especially in these times.

Thank you for his service.

My brother took his own life. He was a Marine combat veteran of Vietnam. I don't agree with what he did, but I certainly respect him and it doesn't diminish my love for him. I am my brother's keeper, and I keep a warm and loving memory of him in my heart, just as I keep warm and loving memories of others in my heart. Hearts are not all that small. Those that serve their nations, their state, their community, their family, their friends, even if their personal burdens are maybe too much for them to bear shouldn't be cause for us to not love and respect them.

sorry about your brother

it's horrible

I was a child when those vets came home, I remember not understanding why people seemed to not like them. At seven I picked up on that and it seemed strange to me even then.

I'm glad that our country does seem to have learned a small lesson on embracing returning troops from that fiasco of how we treated returning Vietnam Vets. I can easily imagine wanting to kill myself in such circumstances, to be honest, after so much of a sacrfice being spat on by those you were told you were serving

no wonder so many have alcohol and mental health problems.

Wish we'd learn the lesson quicker in respect for mentally injured vets, and give them excellent medical care as well. We've been there for 70yrs.

Really Optimist. Can you support any part of your statement. A link, a reference, anything? Anything other than political bashing. While your at it, maybe you could tell us how the current administration has contributed to this situation. Just the facts please, no more unsupported rants. I do applaud your political transparency though, it's quite telling. Your up. . .

I wish Obama would explain the exact rationale of why we need to stay until next yr (pull out starts late this yr goes thru 2013 out by 2014, I think)

That I agree with. He's not great at messaging and it's screwed him up before when the message would have been FINE or helped things.

For example. what would happen if we leave now that would effect US interests or even lives in the longterm? I presume that's why we are not pulling out.

I agree that the poster using Repug...brings the level of discorse down. Someone called Obama "Obummer" a moment ago and it pissed me off. Then again, he's the President of the US and it bugs me. It bugged me even when they mocked Bush in certain ways (Im a Dem)

Really Ken - Here are the links for you....

http://www.vetvoice.com/diary/4934/gop-budget-doesnt-even-say-the-word-veteran

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/28/gop-looks-at-cutting-veterans-health-benefits-for-2011-session-to-fulfill-pledge/

Sorry, I didn't cut and paste, you'll have to do your own reading. Both parties let our service people down, in my opinion, but if the GOP ever passes a bill like they proposed, then they really will have done something dishonorable (again) to our veterans.

Laurali....He's not obummer...he's "the skunk" he's half white, half black? and his policies stink...

Laurali, even a simpleton would immediately know you are an Obama democrat without you feeling the need to admit it?

@Black Kettle & Sand Creek,

Appreciate the links. No need to apologize for the no cut and paste. Also no need to suggest I'll have to do my own reading. It's kinda of understood, don't ya think.

However, the statement from "optimist" was not supported with any facts and focused the blame to be "much of" one political parties actions. Then stated that veteran's would get no help or sympathy, only contempt. Presumably coming from the republicans only. To state one party is to blame and to insinuate (intentional) contempt is irresponsible, unfair, and was unsupported.

Once again, I did appreciate both links and read both articles and comments associated, both very insightful.

@Laurali Actually, according to President Obama's latest agreement with the Afghan government, there will be a few thousand U.S. troops remaining in Afghanistan until the year 2024 as well as giving them 2 billion dollars a year.

@Ken - no problem and while it was easy to find the links blaming the GOP, I agree, wholeheartedly, with your comment :

To state one party is to blame and to insinuate (intentional) contempt is irresponsible, unfair, and was unsupported.

Your tone threw me off a bit, but I understand why you stated it that way to Optomist... I read his comment to fast and missed the "Repugnican" - I do not like name calling on either side, sorry I missed that or I would have found a link about the Democrats who voted against veterans - I'm sure there are plenty of truthful links in which both parties are responsible for what went wrong. I have given you a few checks for your statements as well :)

Not so. I served for 25 years and all of my Presidents were about the same. Most social type programs are a mirror of our North American society. I have to say the greatest positive changes (in health care) came under President Reagan and President G.W. Bush. I didn't vote for either one of them. President Carter probably set us back about 7 years on all programs... I voted for him. President Bush (the 1st one)... I voted for him too and he cut the military to the bone. Then President Clinton got my vote... he was a little busy with cigars, an intern, and lying to us. I voted for President Obama and if the only way to defend him is by saying President Bush was worse... I'M still on a losing streak. So, as you can see, politically I haven't gotten it right yet. But You have just given me a way to win. I am going to vote for whatever Republican candidate is running against President Obama. I just cancelled your vote, because you shamelessly politicised this topic.

I never said that the Repugnicans are the only source of the problem, but at least Obummer and his cohorts aren't trying actively to reduce or eliminate sources of support for military families. The Repugnicans are doing this under the pretense of "reducing government spending," even when the spending is fully justified and even crucial. In their eyes, wealth should be controlled and leveraged by the wealthy, not by the government or lesser classes of society.

Haliburton profitted a quarter of a million dollars of of every U.S. soldier who died in Iraq with only one of their contracts (and they had dozens of contracts besides this one) and they even were the cause of some of those soldiers' deaths.

And you know that the torment will live on via the soul....how? Have you been dead before?

Brain dead.

Thanks for YOUR version of "the truth". You've been watching too many episodes of "celebrity ghost stories" bro.

Another "bible thumper", who knows nothing, but reads "the good book", and continues to spew the nonsense out.

Ichanee- You need to learn about true compassion and understanding. You won't find it in your bible - it's in your heart.

If the anguish is overwhelming and distorting reality, then how is the act of suicide "selfish"? Many sincerely think their families will be better off without them. Is that distorted? Maybe. But it is true to the suicidal person.

Yah he was so correct, that he retracted his statement and apoligized for his statement. The general was incorrect. I also dought you have ANY stats to support your statement of how quickly survivors recover based on how their loved one passed. Quinn covered the rest.

It is not good /accurate to call it selfish for a few reasons, though I understand what you mean. No word in English gets at the truth. It SEEMS selfish when you look at the data we do have. How bad it was for the suicide, how painful it was for the survivors. We see the survivors pain and feel it much more easily I think than understanding the suicide, though. We cannot know the pain of the individual person is going thru who opts to end it. We CANNOT KNOW.

It would rationally be selfish if we thought that the pain was at all bearable compared to the suffering enacted on the surviving family. That is one of the judgement we are making when we call suicide "selfish". BUT WE CANNOT COMPARE we don't KNOW their pain.

Secondly to be selfish one must be aware that one is disregarding the impact on others and choosing benefit for oneself (obviously). It's more oblivious or clueless than selfish, isn't it, otherwise?

I am sure that most if not all suicides have diminshed, often vastly, awareness in the moment of how much pain they will cause. In fact, there may be some if not many who think it will be an overall BLESSING to their loved ones that they are gone.

this is a distortion of thinking that Depression (usually part of PTSD, and also Depression itself) causes. A man can no longer work to support his family, fights with his wife, is jumpy, can't have sex...easily you can imagine he thinks his family is better off without him now that he is damaged goods because of his service (he thinks that)

So, are you selfish if you do not realize in the moment of action that there will be a catastrophically negative effect on others if you act for (what you think is) yourself in killing self? In fact if you think it might make your familie's life better?

By the time someone kills themselves it's easy to imagine they think the world is better off with them dead, certainly that their family does. Many feel worthless.

I don't think that's really being selfish. It's just hard to discribe without that word. I understand all the pain suicide causes a family having seen it first hand. I've known the suicidal also. Most aren't selfish

perhaps it's best to say "innadvertantly selfish" or "unknowinly selfish". I am sure there are some who ARE being self absorbed (one hallmark of depression!), especially teenagers. It's hard to imagine peopl with family who love them thinking this way...I think instead many think they are better off dead.

Ken - and you have no ideas as to the amount of politically correct BS that military leaders have to stomach in order to have a career. The general retracted his statement when he realized the hounds of PC would make an issue of it. It does NOT detract from the very truth in his statements. Suicide IS selfish, oftentimes cowardy, and oftentimes secondary to mental illness. If you want to wallow about suicides - do it on Suicide Prevention Day; if you want to recognize veterans that committed suicide - do it on Veterans Day, but DON'T do it on a day that was consecrated on the battlefield of Gettysburg to honor those killed in COMBAT.

Ken....you are an idiot.

Very bold. Seriously doubt you say that in person(and get away with it) Coward

I would say it to your face loudly and clearly.

These people do not feel they have a choice. You may want to research it in the journals of Psychiatry.

so someone might think twice...the shame they'd bring on their family?

it's possible..

and it'd be possible to study it to see. They have a captive numerous crowd sadly....servicemembers who have contemplated suicide.

THey could ask them and see

Suicide is such a heavy decision - so long though out - that you can't change it with minor arguments. Furthermore, a death some time after a physical wound is still related to the instant injury.

Yes I agree that acknowledging it as exactly the same as combat death and honoring their suicide would indeed lead to more suicides.(this is separate from honoring their service). That is the opposite of what we want although it may make the survivors feel better and less ashamed. Suicide should always be considered a terrible thing or it will be more acceptable. Which is more important?

It took the photographer 3 hours to set it up, Great job. Worth a Pulitzer hand down, maybe two.

Much appreciated Robert.

Thank you for your stand in serving your country/us. Hope you don't mind me saying.

Many of you didn't get much of that on return, which sucks.

You certainly enjoy the freedom of being a troll.

who's the troll, are you trolling for trolls?

Selfish you say because "the person is not thinking of the ones left behind..."

Don't understand Depression do you?

it effects COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS, it distorts them. IT sucks people into a black hole and many CANNOT see outside of it and those who do it is very often distorted.

Many if not most suicides think they are doing the world and their families a favor by killing self...they loathe self so much. PTSD changes people, makes them jumpy angry volitile. Sevice members come home, have trouble holding work, can't sleep, fight with their spouse, scare their kids...are jumpy. ...

it becomes a spiral of selfhatred because PTSD is STILL not accepted. Society AND THE MILITARY feed into the self-stigmatization that it is the FAULT of the person with PTSD, their weakness. Leads to worsenng spiral of depression and self loathing...

by then they think everyone will be glad they are dead. Not all, but many perhaps most.

I re read your post and find it very upsetting in it's depth of loathing and judgement. It's clear you've never been seriously depressed enough to contemplate suicide. Something like 20% of people have.

After WW2, 20% of casualties (I think this means injuries but am nto sure...it's in the War Dept documentary linked in article made in 1946) were MENTAL not PHYSICAL. Funny, that's the same statistic I am hearing for Iraq!!

so clearly war Causes mental damage...clearly there is not a huge difference in terms of these two wars to take WW2 and Iraq in terms of situations that cause PTSD. YOu do not have to see DIRECT combat, they KNOW how PTSD is caused...you have to FEEL your life Threatened. It also matters how much support you have whether or not you get PTSD. There is a whole HOST of factors besides "direct combat" that cause it, and mitigate it. There MAY HAVE been some mitigating circumstances for example in protecting troops from some PTSD in WW2...the nature of the war, the reason for being their and the support of the entire world behind those fighting on allied side and that everyone was going to war not just a few, for example. One might feel less alone and precarious then in Iraq.

I knew someone who deployed only to Kuwait but it took them a month to be told WHERE THEY WERE. They were in a desert and the locals were middle eastern. Lots of fear of the unknown. The THREAT against your safety can cause PTSD or lead in that dirction. They could have been in Iraq..didn't know. And finding out they were in Kuwait...last war in Iraq that was target and heavily involved. Not a feeling of safety (20/20 hindsite available only to us, not them). Safety is the antidote for PTSD. Lack of Safety makes one suceptible so lesser things can cause it.

Knowledge is power and keeps one from hateful judgement.

there IS a specialness

they die because of serving their country.

Just like a road accident in Afghanistan...those dead Americans died in service. Unlike the road accident down the street from me yesterday.

All tragic, those in the line of duty have an extra obligation for notice and commemeration. Or so many of us think

Wrong again laurali...they died for each other...for the guy on your right and left...not for your country...unless you've been there done that seen that, you don't know spit.

USARMY RVN 70-71-72

Unfortunately, the Military Complex is rather duplicitous as are some civilians. Yellow magnets on your car will not save a life, the Military is not in the business of saving lives - it never has been. You cannot have commanders sitting in the Pentagon, working 9-5, commuting to their home and family at the end of the day, completely out of harms way - telling the Lt., Captain, Sgt.,Private, etc who is actually in the field, what is the best strategy. We knew this method didn't work after Vietnam, yet the Military didn't learn - as long as there is enough fodder for war's fire, most of the top leadership doesn't care - those that do care are often disgraced or "relieved of their position."

If you remember, our troops were sent with gas masks and bio hazard suits galore, but not enough armored vehicles or state of the art (actually stop a bullet, shrapnel, etc) vests. Many of our soldiers asked their families to send them better vests, better plates to go in them and everyday supplies - because the military didn't have tampons or pads for servicewomen. A soldier gets shot, the medic immediately takes off the vest to monitor vitals, it's a small injury, the soldier returns to his/her team a few days later - only to find out that they have to pay for a new vest because they "lost" theirs (no joke).

We view our servicemen and women as humans, but they are numbers, disposable and replaceable to the President & Congress who sent them to fight (do not derail this as a Republican or Democrat parties fault - both parties have sent our young to die in a foreign land at some point in time). Servicemen and women do not see their fellow soldiers as disposable, they are a family in every sense of the word - yes, they signed up for service, but they didn't sign up being told they were as disposable as rotten milk to the Military Industry - they were told they would be taken care of....I know this personally.

Civilians thank the soldiers for their service, a pat on the back does not heal the wounds. Soldiers who have been in combat understand soldiers in combat. A VA therapist who is a civilian will never understand - there are many nuances to being there as your friend dies (or multiple friends die), that is your last memory of them, they may say their last words to you, your senses are smelling, hearing....10 years later, the same smell, you are back holding your dead friend, why did they die & not you, you were inches apart, you cannot help someone with PTSD if you haven't gone through it. That is also not the only problem the Complex puts on you - separated from family (children, etc), even if you were never wounded, you saw things that change you, you may not get your benefits on time, bills stack up, their is job discrimination when you leave the military - some employers are afraid of you, so many nuances, these are just a few.

Every life is sacred (suicide or not & I'm not talking about religion) but our soldiers were let down in the field, after being wounded physically and/or wounded mentally - do you really think the Military can handle this? Again, the Military Complex is in the business of killing (whether the Commander's war was right or wrong), it is not in the business of healing. There must be a solution for our veterans, one that doesn't stigmatize, does not go on any record, a safe place. A safe place were one is not judged for suicidal thoughts, not told to suck it up.... civilian foundations need to grant money to service combat veterans who are qualified therapists, grant scholarships for veterans to become therapists....but it must be outside the reach of the Military, employers, etc.

I had forgotten about the vest shortages until this comment. And clearly remember the plight. In a word, disgraceful. Absolutely gives perspective proof to the disconnect the top brass seem to have toward the welfare of our troops on the battle field.

Your comments seem well researched and very credible, thanks(again) for the perspective.

Well stated. Glad you weathered the storm(s) and are still on board, and are contributing through your experiences. Much appreciated.

If it's any concelation about that fool of a General, when I, a civilian, read his statement and that there had been six suicides under his command (it seemed to imply that was a lot) I said to self 'wonder why?" ironically

given his judgemental statement.

No one on his base will ever come forward. ANd his retraction wasn't really one. SOrry I caused your pain...I acknowledge that what I said was not what the military SAYS I should say.

ANyone under his command can see what he thinks. Still. If I had some mental health problems there, I'd just have learned to keep my mouth shut.

he probably has caused more deaths sadly. FOOL

Just because he's a general doesn't make him right or wrong, he's just as fallible as any person, fact is he's probably more so...rank has a way of isolating men from each other..in my time in service i found the two most dangerous people were the 2nd lieutenant in charge of a rifle company, and a 1 star general...one wants to impress the brass to get promotion..the other doesn't want to do anything or accept responsibility to jeapordize his position..both have gotten more men killed than all other ranks combined...

Well stated COYOTEHUNTER...both #24.3 & #23.2

During Vietnam, we had the draft. Many CO's went to Canada. Now, we have volunteers. No matter who the president is and what wars he inherits from the previous guy, military guys and gals went freely. I grant the fact they are not told the gruesome truth but nonetheless, they were not forced to go. It was their decision.

thank you for your service

though I disagree strongly with some other things you say you are entitled to say them.

alumette....During vietnam they had the draft, and the lottery...Now they volunteer, If they don't know the "gruesome truth" thats their own fault, this isn't like 1968 where we watched the vietnam war during suppertime news we knew what we we're getting into... theres stil plenty of info out there today for these "volunteers" to know what they may be getting into...

Coyotehunter: I think it is difficult for a teenager to truly understand the "gruesome truth," until they have experienced it. Seeing it on TV or reading about it in a book is much different than experiencing a horrible event.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you in general but experience always trumps a "story." Some of these kids think it's going to be like in the movies, where they are the hero and all ends well....

alumette: recruiters promise the world, make you think that you will be charting your destiny - even the Military commercials say that, "you want to be a doctor, join us and we'll pay for med school," - they skip the "if you are not dead" part. For a kid in a struggling community, or who cannot afford college, or who wants to become an American citizen - those commercials look great, so sanitary.