The BSA can choose for themselves who to accept and who to exclude. As a PRIVATE entity they have that right. If Gays and Lesbians want to start their own Gay Scouts of America- feel free to do it today! I have no problem with it.

What I have a problem with is this: Outsiders that are attempting to dictate to a PRIVATE entity just what their own rules must be- this is absolutely WRONG in every conceivable way! This goes for ANY private group- leave them the heck alone and go start a different group- one that conforms to your own set of rules. But to force another group to bend to the will of the prevailing winds of the times is wrong- period.

Pressure from outside is lame, but the BSA needs the kick. MANY members have spoken out for this change and they have been ignoring it and using procedures to get around the wishes of the MEMBERS. THIS IS AN INTERNAL DEBATE NOW.

Eagle Scout for Gays!

Look - Yes, they have the right to exclude anyone they want to and nobody is forcing them to do anything. But societal pressure is something we consider in every choice we make. What society thinks matters, not only because that is where their membership comes from, but also because we learn from the rest of society about values.

I thought males and females were equal. Why are we restricting sexes at all? It should be one group. Scouts.

@ TheOverlord:

"I would be much more concerned with my kid being alone with a priest than with a gay Boy Scout leader."

And watch out for those coaches too. Look at Sandusky and his enabling pal Paterno.

Those boys in the photo with their three moms don't look very happy about being made poster boys for gay rights.

yes!!

Jock- why do we have to consider societal pressures? Just what difference does it make? If a group wants to stay where they are- they have that right- and pressure from outside influence is not right.

Look at it this way- if you don't like the station- change the channel. If you don't agree with the organization- don't attend, or form your own, but leave that one alone- they don't have to bend to every will or whim. I personally don't like the (insert group name here)- so I don't go, but I don't stand outside and try to make them change what I don't like so I can attend- I just don't go- and I'm good with that!!

Somehow- our society, in its quest to make everything equal and fair, overlooked the very idea that made this country great- that we recognize each others strengths and what makes us unique. We have forgotten that its okay to be different. But to homogenize everything (and that IS what's really happening in America these days) is to forget who we are. And that is sad...

Why don't gay activists just create their own organization. They can call it the Gay American Scouts (GAS).

But seriously, why do they feel compelled to force their own immoral conduct on the BSA. Just go out and create your own program, don't try to force your own beliefs and conduct on others.

Eagle Scout, '82

.

"Societal pressure" in this case translates to pressure from a very small, but loud, minority group. So, BSA, ignore them and continue to march.

If you gays want to form a GSA, nobody's stopping you. Form your gay group, but quit trying to shove your agenda down everybody else's throats. You're not changing anybody's mind, and the more you try, especially with the in-your-face tactics, the more self-defeating antagonism you generate.

In all honesty would it matter...each troop has multiple patrols which basically run themselves anyway so you could just let them make their own patrol and run themselves and use their parents as their leaders...I really don't see where it would be that big of an issue. Each patrol is responsible for planing their meetings and running it and the leaders are just there for help when needed. Not such a huge issue.

"Societal pressure" in this case translates to pressure from a very small, but loud, minority group.

Straight and gay people who despise discrimination and think scouting should be available to all boys of scouting age? Not sure that's a minority, and I'm pretty sure it's not quite loud enough.

Yakmilk There is more chance of a homo[sexual person] being a pedophile

/citation needed. Everything I've seen on the subject indicates WAY more straight pedophiles than gay ones.

You all can argue about this until kingdom come...submit petitions...ask for a policy change at the BSA national level, etc. It isn't going to get them to change their policy against allowing homosexuals to be leaders. 2 reasons.

First, the Supreme Court says they don't have to change their policy...the ruling states they are private organization with an established policy and a first amendment right of speech and association...it is a policy they've had for a hundred years.

Second, look up who the top ten sponsors of BSA are in terms of numbers of scouts, troops, and donations. Six of the top 10 in the U.S. are Christian Churches. With the churches representing two-thirds of scouts, troops, and money donated...BSA has little motivation to change. Unless Christian denominations experience very profound changes regarding homosexuality on a very large scale, it isn't going to change the relationships they have with BSA. The national leaders of BSA are representative of their membership...which means the vast majority of national board and committee members are going to be members of these Christian Churches. They are not going to change their philosophy. If the BSA were ever forced to change, it would probably spell the end to that organization. My guess is 75% of their troops and donations would disappear overnight. The churches would simply organize their own scouting programs under the umbrellas of their church youth programs, and dissassociate completely with BSA.

Game over. Argue about the right and wrong of it all you want. Wring your hands, write angry letters, post on message boards, and call each other "bigots, conservatives, right-wingers, liberals, homos, etc." all night long (I'm just re-posting words I've already seen posted here). It isn't going to change anything in any of our lifetimes. The SCOTUS already decided this. It'll be at least 3 generations before they might consider taking it up again in another case, and the BSA policy hasn't changed for a century and they have zero motivation to make any change. Get over it.

The best hope that homosexuals have for participating in scouting anytime soon is to start their own, independent group.

Regarding the matter of choice; choosing whether or not you are gay or not, I would like to say that as a gay man, who is 31, has been in a committed relationship for 5 years, owns a home, has two dogs, has a good job, is very close with his friends and family, and has two adopted sons, this is not a choice. My life plan was to have all of those things I just mentioned, but it is harder to come by at times when you are gay. If those were my goals why would I choose to put obstacles in front of me, just because I wanted to have "sex" with a man. It is not about that. It is disappointing that my life is diminished to nothing based on gay agendas, straight agendas, liberal/right wing, etc. However, to say that I had a choice in who I am attracted to and then be with is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Someone also commented that the attraction may not be a choice, but to act on it is. So, because I am made this way, I should never have sex, or I should be in a sexless relationship? Trust me, if a naked women next to me in the bed was what got my juices flowing, I would have done that years ago, and I would be straight. I am not. It does nothing for my mental or physical. Try as I may, I just doesn't work. And regardless of it being a choice or not, has no bearing on how "out" you are. There is still so much hatred, confusion, ignorance, and drama that comes from society, on both sides, with being gay, that it can still be difficult to announce. This world is so overwhelmingly sad. My partner and I will just do our best to make sure our boys are happy, confident, good people who contribute to the world around them and to their families in a positive way. Boys Scouts or no Boy Scouts. I don't think about gay parents and if they can be leaders in the organization or not, when I a reading all of this. I think about the little boy who is 8, in a troop, and he is gay. How does he fit into this equation? He obviously wouldn't be allowed to be himself, but also be part of a group that he has bonded with and grown to love. If you focus on the right things, and doing the right thing, which is what BSA is about, then that boy should be fine. Let's just stop talking about things that we know nothing about, and start focusing on things that really affect our kids. Show them what it is to be a true positive force in this world. That is what God really wants us to do.

The problem here is that too many people equate child molestation with homosexuality. Child molestation is a separate issue that is found among both gay AND straight men. The perceptions that gay men will automatically molest boys is a bigoted, prejudiced viewpoint that stems from ignorance and fear. Your children are at just as much risk of being abused by their straight leaders.

No child "learns" to be gay by being around a gay man. That is insanity. Sexuality is determined by biology, not by simply being around gay or straight people. Children can be brought up surrounded by the most macho environment and never meet a gay person - and still be gay! The same is true of children brought up with same sex parents - they can turn out straight. It has nothing to do with what they are exposed to. Kids know who they are.

So all this griping about allowing BSA to make their own choice is fine - some of us just want them to actually have the facts before they do!

Everything I've seen on the subject indicates WAY more straight pedophiles than gay ones.

Huh? So are you telling me Sandusky is straight but likes little boys? Or all those priests who molest alter boys are straight? It's all gay just a different age group.

I think we should let every sexual orientation excercise theri own sexual freedom. Because what I'm hearing is that we are not allowing gays their freedom of rights. So by that same argument we are not allowing pedophiles their rights either.

The fact of the matter is that it is not their right, it is a sexual CHOICE. This is all about sexual choice and always has been. Gays can scream all they want that their rights are being violated, but then so are the rights of every other person who chooses to exercise a different sexual choice.

Protect the kids and keep the gays out of the Boy Scouts.

"The Boy Scouts of America is considering a resolution that calls for ending a 102-year-old policy they’ve grappled with in recent years: banning gay scouts and scout leaders"

I was not aware that the scouts excluded "gay" scouts, only leaders. If true (which I doubt) they should re-think that aspect. Bottom line; I would not be comfortable with my son being in a boy scout troop with a homosexual leader, and I won't be PC'd into believing otherwise. I don't believe the scouts should be either.

Put it to you this way, if you wouldn't want a straight man going camping with your daughters, then I don't want a gay man camping with my son. No bigotry about it. Just rational common sense. I wouldn't want someone or two someones that are attracted to the gender of my child go camping with them.

I love this line from the Boy Scouts Association, it shows how naive they are:

The [proposed] new policy would throw out the national ban and allow local chartering organizations to decide whether or not they would accept gay youth and leaders.

Local charters already do this!

I believe that there should be an organization for hetero sexual scouts and one for homo sexual scouts. The group fo the homosexual scouts could be named :The Fantastic American Gay Scouts.

WCF1957

Ahhh you are probably chuckling at that aren't you. All I can see is a sad individual.

BSA is a private organization. It is their choice. Just as the GSA has chosen to support Planned Parenthood and many of their supporters will be dropping them. All these choices are rights of American citizens. If you want respect for your rights you have to respect the rights of others even if you do not agree with them.

BSA is also discriminatory against sons of single mothers. What can you expect from an organization modeled after the Nazi storm troopers?

I agree that a new organization needs to be formed that is more inclusive. Whether or not a parent is gay, straight or a single is no fault of the child.

Gay people have existed throughout the ages and in every corner of the world in numbers too large to be a mistake of nature.

Can a leopard change its spots? Can you trust a fox to guard the hen house? Trusting gays to lead our children without bias is foolish. They like to claim that they are just like other races, well I disagree. It has nothing to do with race, it is a way of life, belief or philosophy that they follow that is not appealing to many. It is the philosophy that is worrisome, the philosophy that a person can just do whatever they want whether it goes against any social codes or not. There has to be some restraint, 'anything goes' is not what we need to teach our kids. What are we exposing kids to this controversial concept for anyway? That just makes even more confused people down the road.

If you want respect for your rights you have to respect the rights of others even if you do not agree with them.

That's rich. Go tell all the "Gays can't get married" folks.

Listen, no is FORCING the BSA to do anything or accept anyone. They're choosing to review what many consider a discriminatory policy, specifically in light of the progress we've achieved pertaining to gay rights. Either way, it's their choice, AND SHOULD BE THEIR CHOICE.

I really love listening to some of you go on about how, "If you don't like it, look the other way or don't join." Well, take your own advice when it comes to gay people, and stop whining about them forcing their lifestyle on you or getting married.

Although they are a private organization, and thus the choice will ultimately be up to them, they also have the right to "review" any of their rules, at any time, for whatever reason. That is what they have decided to do.

I do find it ironic, however, that this organization teaches young boys to be strong, confident, assertive individuals who stand up for what they believe in. But as soon as some of these older scouts do just that... stand up for what they believe in (equality for homosexuals)... many of you condemn their actions. You have trained them to stand up for what they believe is "right", and now you are upset because they are doing just that.

Perhaps you would prefer the scouts to take on a more religious indoctrination approach, where they brainwash young boys into doing exactly what they tell them... instead of thinking for themselves. That way you can maintain complete control over their actions, and you will not have to worry about them deciding for themselves what is the "right thing to do".

Phil-3222496

Trust me when I say this your best friend is more likely to molest your children than a gay man or woman. A relative is more likely to molest your children that a gay man or a gay woman.

Like the majority of adults on earth gay men and woman like other gay men and woman not children.

It is a shame that we allow minority groups and/or organizations dictate what everyone should or should not do. What happened to majority rules? Let the Gay community stay in their community and not inject their beliefs and lifestyles in ours. By making this an issue, that is exactly what they are doing.

Can a leopard change its spots? Can you trust a fox to guard the hen house? Trusting gays to lead our children without bias is foolish.

What harm has a homosexual done that you cannot trust them like any other human being? That has been specifically a result of them being homosexual?

Yakmilk There is more chance of a homo being a pedophile

Really? And how many pedos have you seen that identify as gay? Most have straight adult relationships. Pedophilia isn't about gender; they are attracted to children. Like all rape, it's about power over someone weaker, not sexual orientation. They prey on children because kids are easier to control and less likely to tell.

Regarding the matter of choice; choosing whether or not you are gay or not, I would like to say that as a gay man, who is 31, has been in a committed relationship for 5 years, owns a home, has two dogs, has a good job, is very close with his friends and family, and has two adopted sons, this is not a choice.

And I am willing to bet if your sons turn out to be straight you will be just fine with that. I have yet to see gay parents that are angered by or ashamed of their straight children; I wish all straight parents could be the same way. I am straight, as are my parents, but I was fortunate enough to have a mother that believes in tolerance and has no problem with homosexuality.

I thought males and females were equal. Why are we restricting sexes at all? It should be one group. Scouts.

Yes! This, btw is also why I oppose this gay agenda.I think it doesn't really solve the problem. Scouts is for learning skills, but we not only divide males and females (robbing young men of the chance to interact with women), but we perpetuate a sexist division of skills (oh, I don't need to know how to sew, cook, or clean, this is "women's work"). As long as the two groups are two groups, simple interaction with females (which there is less of than you'd think) gets delayed even more, causing an even greater rift of sexism.

The point of Scouts is to learn to cope with the natural world, something that needs to expand in this climate of overindustrialization, not stagnate with backwards gender segregation. Also, gays in a primarily Christian group (which Boy Scouts is), has a tendency to water-down the basic mission of the group.

Type into a search engine: "The Boy Scouts and Girls; a changing relationship" and read some of the comments.

Oy! Always with the "gay agenda". Please, tell me, do the gays meet in some shady, underground cavern and plot out this agenda, like some secret society? Do they elect other gays to go to some global conference and decide what should be put on this agenda? Do they vote on delegates? Like, how does this "agenda" come to be?

Thomas Hooker

I understand what you are getting at, however why should I not be allowed to help my son in his scout endeavors, or his friends?

I am concerned about the lesson of leadership and responsibility this would teach them, if the BSA head-office decided to force me to quit. Right now head office does not know. The other parent's know and frankly don't care.

Bohn,

Unfortunately common sense gets thrown out the window on issues like these (especially in MSNBCland).

Rad; "No child "learns" to be gay by being around a gay man. That is insanity. Sexuality is determined by biology, not by simply being around gay or straight people."

How do you account for the "fact" that children raised by homosexual parents are much more likely to be homosexual than those raised by heterosexual parents? Also, you are right that being homosexual does not mean you are "automatically" a pedophile, however it should be noted that there is a correlation between homosexuality and having been molested as a child. It can not be denied that molestation has a profoundly bad effect on children. If homosexuality is one of the bi-products of molestation, what does that say about the "normalcy of homosexuality?

"Figures don't lie, but liars sure can figure"

There's a major issue here that people seem to be forgetting and that's analyzing the arguments made on both sides.

Liberals - You call on the BSA to "get with the times," to not be "discriminatory or homophobic." The problem with these arguments is another argument you like to make and marinmom most recently pointed it out here: gays have existed throughout the ages. So the "gay rights" that liberals call for now, they weren't being called for when this country was founded, certainly not when the BSA was founded. So "getting with the times" is faulty because gays have been known for a long time and the time to make these arguments was then, not now. And "discriminatory and homophobic" where's the hotline that a straight white natural-born American cizitzen like myself can call when I hear all these arguments of how people like myself are so evil to other people, even though I am not like that at all? Where's my group to tell me that I'm fine just the way I am and I don't have to make people change, just make them understand and accept me for being me? Btw, the first person to say "go join the KKK" should be suspended on ignorance and stupidity alone.

Conservatives - BSA is a private organization, but so are the major corporations that you all seem to love and support. They are not allowed to discriminate, based on gender, age, race, sexuality or anything other than their own abilities, and if they are caught they'll be spending that year's profits, and likely then some, in litigations and it's possible they could lose their license to operate a business. And I get the difference is BSA is like a volunteer organization vs other businesses where you are paid for services rendered, but you've already set the bottom line as not making that differential in this argument. I don't know why the Supreme Court would have ruled the way it did just because it's a private organization when that Supreme Court would have ripped into any other such organization for similar offenses.

So what path should BSA take? Honestly, it's what I said before. The arguments of inclusiveness should have been addressed during its founding or shortly thereafter. Clearly, they were not. It's a sad tale, but that's an issue for people who lived in the time to deal with, not us in today's world. So the BSA does not need to change, but founding a similar organization, perhaps one that suits your desires, is perfectly acceptable. Yes, it's a lot of work to get started, but if you're so dedicated, it shouldn't be a problem to get the proper licenses and whatever else may be required. Just remember this day because one day there's gonna be a new group of people who will want in and they will be different from what you had in mind when you founded your organization and how will you react when that day comes? A warning to BSA and people who go founding another organization, we all know what the road to hell is paved with.

SSPERFECT,

Wow.

So "getting with the times" is faulty because gays have been known for a long time and the time to make these arguments was then, not now.

Okay, so basically your logic breaks down to, "If we haven't done the right thing from the dawn of time, we should never do the right thing, seeing as we should have addressed it at the very start."

WTF??? If we lived by your logic, we'd still have the societal layout of cavemen.

"Well, the time to allow women to vote was back then and we didn't address it, so now they don't get to."

"Well, the time to allow black people rights was back then, so now forget about it. It's too late."

"Well, the time to ban child labor in sweatshops was back at the start, so why change it now?"

I could go on...

And "discriminatory and homophobic" where's the hotline that a straight white natural-born American cizitzen like myself can call when I hear all these arguments of how people like myself are so evil to other people, even though I am not like that at all? Where's my group to tell me that I'm fine just the way I am and I don't have to make people change, just make them understand and accept me for being me?

Oh my God, stop whining. Do you really think white, men are persecuted minority? You wouldn't last a DAY as anything other then a white guy, if you whine this bad now.

Tod-2791955

That sir is a unmitigated lie.

Research after research have shown not differences in the frequency of sexuality identification in children with heterosexual parents or those with homosexual parents.

Let them (the men) be girl scout leaders.

SS

Gotta agree with Sarah on this one (which pretty much never happens); your long diatribal (yes I made up a word) attempt to straddle the political fence on this issue, makes no sense, no matter which side you're coming from?

Just so everyone knows, TrueLGBT is a computer generated response, I believe put out by NOM.

Sally/Tyler,

Can we ban it or something? Really annoying and repetitive.

Echoing Sarah's request.

This is nothing more than a spamming bot.

Aaah, that explains a lot.

Krestov, 1st up on google search; http://familieslg.org/_comun/bibliografia/pdf/golombok_1996_2.pdf

Extremely long and convoluted (science jargon) but you may want to take a look. It is important when researching any studies having to do with homosexuals that you follow the money (both sides pay for results). The premier study (often still quoted) on a homosexual gene (Nature vs. nurture) was a paid for study done in San Diego in the late eighties The study showed that the hypothalmus in autopsied homosexual men was found to be enlarged. An obvious but unreported fact was that many of the men autopsied died of aids, which enlarges the hypothalmus.

The above article has lots of charts (unfortunately mostly comparing single mothers to lesbian parents) not much on male homosexual parents and sexuality of offspring (which has a higher rate of homosexual children). Here's a quote from the 1st paragraph:

"Psychoanalitic theorists believe that relationships with parents in childhood are central to the development of sexual orientation in adult life"

Like I said before; "Figures don't lie, but liars sure can figure"

Please think before you call someone you know nothing about an "unmitigated" liar!

Tod

It might help to read the article you post, before reporting on it. Let me quote the results of the study that YOU posted:

"...the large majority of children who grew up in lesbian families identified as heterosexual...

Results ... there was no significant difference between adults raised in lesbian families and their peers from single-mother heterosexual households in the proportion who reported sexual attraction to someone of the same gender."

Furthermore, you quoted only the psychoanalytic theory, which differed from the biological theory... which was the entire point of the study.

If anything, this entire study basically states that children raised in more open environments, where their parents love them regardless of who they are, are more likely to "consider" a same-sex relationship. As opposed to those raised in close-minded environments, whose parents will not love them if they are gay, are less likely to "consider" it. However, regardless of what they "consider", there is no significant difference in those who report sexual attraction to the same gender.

That means that those children are willing to "consider" it, but that consideration does not lead to actual attraction. That is common sense. If you are raised in an open-minded environment, you consider more things... if you are raised in a close-minded environment, you consider less things. Neither of which has any significant difference on sexual attraction.

So you either lied about the study, or you do not posses the intelligence to understand this extremely simple research. Which is it?

@LookForTheTruth Private or not, when any entity asks for public contributions and advertises for membership. being discriminatory is just plain wrong and should be reviewed, even constitutionally. Not only that, they are a federally chartered organization operating under tax free status. If they want to be private and be exclusive, pay the taxes. Churches/religious organizations get away with the very same clap-trap No entity should get that status and be so exclusive.

@Sarah-3043284 My wife and I want to say we love you :D. You are so spot-on with your replies :D:D:D:D:D

I used to be a boyscout and everyone in my unit knew I was bisexual. Want to know why they didn't do anything? Because they didn't give a flying @!$%# about sexuality when I was in the scouts. Christianity spreads so many lies about us that it has given all homosexuals a bad rep when we haven't done @!$%#. And before anyone even says god wrote in the bible that homosexuality is a sin is either deluded or just desperate to find a reason to hate us. If god wrote the bible how come it's all written in tile script? Did they have computers back then? No the simple fact is the bible is a book written in a dead language and the closest we could come to deciphering it was listening to idiots saying what they wanted to say and not what that book says. To this day we still know nothing of what that book says. If man can avoid death and have eternal life or be able to walk on water you're either lying or completely off your rocker.

Why not? What do they stand for? Discrimination?

Being gay is not a choice. It's mother natures work. Per wikipedia homosexual behavior has been observed in up to 1500 species. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals While I'm heterosexual, I had two roommates in college that were gay. And somehow the last few words of the pledge to allegence "with liberty and justice for all." seems to be lip service on the part of scouts by disenfranchising gays. Yes they're a private organization, but they accept money from the United Way and I no longer donate to the United Way because of the Boy Scouts discrimination.

saying you "don't back down" is like saying, "we don't change our opinions."

If you don't change, you don't grow. If you don't grow, you stagnate and rot.

Right now there is something rotting in the Boy Scouts...stubborn, immature and ignorant opinions.

Root out the hate and you will start being an organization that matters again.

Think about what you just said: homosexuality is inherant. How could it be inherant?!

If you don't believe me just ask someone with a gay person in their family.

funny- I have one in my family- and they say it IS a choice! Sorry, the science just isn't there to complete the burden of PROOF.

The BSA can say and stand for whatever they want to- period. Why should they bend to the gay community?? What do they have to gain? If they want to stand firm in their belief- fine- do it. If the succeed, great. If not, so be it. But it is their choice to do so and no outside influence should make that choice for them.

Spades, I think you are confusing sexual orientation with sexual behavior. A gay person has a homosexual orientation, in that they are attracted to the same sex. That part doesn't seem to be a choice in most people. Obviously we all have a choice in our sexual behavior, but people are not going to choose romantic partners that they are not attracted to.

@ Spades - dumb comment - based on what you believe, feel, think, etc. Not everyone shares your same distorted beliefs (or mine for that matter). That's why it makes more sense to rely on science, not just your "icky" feeling about gays.

If BSA refused to allow African Americans to join, would that be a problem? It is the same issue...it is a civil rights issue. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with one's ability to be a good leader. Hopefully they step up and do what is right.

childrex: Separate but equal?? No, don't think so. Smell that? Its the winds of progress (and it's blowing away the stench of bigotry). Here's one heterosexual parent who would never, ever allow my children to enter the scouts as long as this discrimination stands.

fubar77, just curious. Were you sexually molested as a child? Most experts agree that can effect a person's "sexual identification."

LookForTheTruth

funny- I have one in my family

People lie about themselves on the internet all the time.

and they say it IS a choice! Sorry, the science just isn't there to complete the burden of PROOF.

Homosexuality deals with attraction, the same way we define heterosexuality. Were you heterosexual when you were 8? How do you know? Because you were attracted to the opposite sex. Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex.

Attraction is a result of the chemicals dopamine and serotonin being released in your brain, triggered by external stimuli. You have no control over the release of these chemicals, it is a physiological reaction... not a conscious decision. Thus, you do not make a choice between who you are attracted to, the chemicals in your brain dictate that... and you have no control or choice over those chemicals.

I just provided the "PROOF" that homosexuality is not a choice, with scientific evidence.

You and your "family member" - if they even exist, which I doubt - are either liars or you do not posses the necessary intellect to comprehend this simple concept. Regardless, "PROOF" has been provided. You must now provide counter-evidence, both measurable and scientific, to prove it is a choice. The uneducated opinion of someone who lacks any factual data to back-up that opinion does not count.

Good luck.

I think the gay agenda has finally reached its point. The gay community always said there was no gay agenda, and this just proves that it is false. Now even PRIVATE organizations are not left alone because of them. When are these gays going to stop?

Everybody knows gays have a choice to be gay or else they would have shown themselves to be gay from the start. But obviously they have to wait a few years before they finally come out? Please!!!!

It's just more lies spread by the gay community, to make you think they didn't really have a choice. Nobody believes that bull@!#$T anyway.

By the way, I saw those studies that gays constantly keep referring to, on this newsvine. Almost all of the scientists had a bias, in favor of gays saying that it wasn't a choice but biological, and they looked for reasons to back that up. They also tended to disregard the other conflicting data that was opposite with what they had anticipated.

The gay people want in on everything! They want t run the world and yes they love converting people who are normal. They do have an agenda. They would love to have our children evolve into gays because then they would have more potential sexual partners. Obviously they do not care about keeping life going. only to quench thier sexual desires that overwhlem them daily! EWWE!

Jack Dulouz, how is it the same as discriminating against African Americans? Discriminating against someone because they are a differnent color is ridiculous. This is totally different; it is unatural and just plain gross.

they love converting people who are normal.

They must have super-human powers if they have the ability to "convert" the release of chemicals in the brains of other people. Seeing as how you do not have control of the hormones and chemicals in your own brain, this feet is even more impressive. Given the fact that attraction is governed by the release of chemicals in your brain, it is amazing that they hold control over these chemicals... and even more so that they hold this control over the chemicals in your brain.

Tell me, do you think it is telekinesis? That seems to be the only way they would have the ability to psychically alter the release of chemicals, at the exact right moment that an external stimuli is triggered. Of course, once they break their telekinetic hold, your psychological response will return to normal... so naturally they would need to maintain this super power over the extent of your lifetime.

Now are there any reasonable people around?

I don't know if to be homosexual , travesty or bisexual is genetic or acquire, nobody agree in this issue, but if kids are going to sleep in tents like all scouts do, they must have separated tents from the straight kids, the sexual behabor of those people are different any anything can happend. Scout need to have another group, Boy-scouts, Girl-scouts, Homosexual-bisexual-travestyscout.

@ mguy:

"Attraction is a result of the chemicals dopamine and serotonin being released in your brain, triggered by external stimuli. You have no control over the release of these chemicals, it is a physiological reaction... not a conscious decision."

That's exactly what happens to children who are sexually abused and makes them feel the abuse was their fault. You actually provided "evidence" and "proof" that child sexual abuse has a profound influence over a child's developing sexual identity. Including the decision they are gay.

Dear fubar-

BET ME!

mguy- yeah, my family member very much exists and I love him dearly- I will not dishonor him here. But we had this discussion. He said that it was a choice for him and he liked it that way. He also said some may not have that choice, but for him and many of his friends- it was indeed a choice.

You know... just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's any less relevant. Call BS all you want to- I know the reality in my life MUCH better than you do.

It's a private organization that can do whatever it pleases. Welcome to the US. Freedom for all is also freedom from all. Get over it.

Mguy: Did you really have to take up all that space for nothing? This is just another ploy by the gay community, making it seem that what they do is considered "normal" and that we are the ones who are overreacting. If any of us really believed that, then why the push to put their gay agenda out there constantly. Afterall, wouldn't people just come to their senses?

Another thing, the gay community should stop thinking they are a minority. THEY ARE NOT A MINORITY!NO ONE BELIEVES THAT! Gay people can hide their sexuality if they wanted to, otherwise they would have no need for a "coming out". Funny thing is, you don't hear of a Black person coming out and saying that they're black, do you? Same thing with an asian person and the same thing with a hispanic person. Why? Because for them, it is something they cannot hide.

One of the reasons, a majority of people think that the gay community is a brain dead!

Attraction is a result of the chemicals dopamine and serotonin being released in your brain, triggered by external stimuli. You have no control over the release of these chemicals, it is a physiological reaction... not a conscious decision.

If all is about chemistry why homosexuality can't be treated. I guess there is no economical benefit to produce drugs that help homosexuals to behave normal, man like man, woman like a woman.

@ JustOlJoe:

"Being gay is not a choice. It's mother natures work. Per wikipedia homosexual behavior has been observed in up to 1500 species."

So has maternal abandonment. Are you saying child neglect isn't a choice?

...and the one thing the boy scouts needs more of, it's gay people LOL

First, to RevSpinnaker - really? Now you being abused makes you homosexual? There is no scientific evidence to back that up.

Now, for "Unhappy" - do you have any references for those scientific articles? Where were they published? Were they peer reviewed? The ones that state homosexuality is a choice, how did they come to that conclusion? Was it a survey? Who funded the study? Trust me, I have worked in the scientific community for two decades now, and we can go back and forth about "scientific research" all day.

All I know for certain is that I never had to chose to be heterosexual, the same way that my friends who are homosexual never chose that, either. Did you chose to be heterosexual? I doubt it.

People (bigoted people, mind you) like to insist that the BSA is a "private organization" and thus, they can allow or disallow anyone they like. Yeah... but that's not exactly true, though, is it? We do have anti-discrimination laws in this nation and even private companies must abide by the laws if they wish to operate in the United States. Now, it may be that sexual orientation is not a protected classification where the BSA are concerned; if that's the case, then yes, they are legally permitted to be discriminatory and bigoted. But can you imagine a retail store -- indeed also a private enterprise -- having a sign on its door saying, "No gays or black people may shop here"? Would you find that offensive or illegal-sounding? They're just as much a private organization as BSA, right? Shouldn't they be able to choose who patronizes their store?

Now... See how foolish you sound?

Homosexuality is a behavioral choice, not an inherant trait. I don't know about you but to me homosexuals are kinda weird. Look at the "lady" in that picture...doesn't something seem wrong with her to you?
being intolerant to immoral behavior is not a vice nor is it undemocratic.
And you know what proves my point? People don't "accept" homosexuality still! They "tolerate" homosexuality as if it some disease or disability at no fault to the individual. They know the action is immoral (thank God or we would have no families) but they tolerate the diseased and debilitated people infected with this horrible affliction.

False, it is not a choice. I'm gay... Think I chose to be gay? Really? You think I wanted to live a life where I would be treated like a second-class citizen, not receive equal rights, and see all kinds of hatred towards me? Right... Glad I signed up!

I think the gay agenda has finally reached its point. The gay community always said there was no gay agenda, and this just proves that it is false. Now even PRIVATE organizations are not left alone because of them. When are these gays going to stop?
Everybody knows gays have a choice to be gay or else they would have shown themselves to be gay from the start. But obviously they have to wait a few years before they finally come out? Please!!!!
It's just more lies spread by the gay community, to make you think they didn't really have a choice. Nobody believes that bull@!#$T anyway.
By the way, I saw those studies that gays constantly keep referring to, on this newsvine. Almost all of the scientists had a bias, in favor of gays saying that it wasn't a choice but biological, and they looked for reasons to back that up. They also tended to disregard the other conflicting data that was opposite with what they had anticipated.

There is no gay agenda. We just want to be treated equally. Plain and simple. Again, being gay isn't a choice, just as you did not choose to be straight (assuming you are straight).

The gay people want in on everything! They want t run the world and yes they love converting people who are normal. They do have an agenda. They would love to have our children evolve into gays because then they would have more potential sexual partners. Obviously they do not care about keeping life going. only to quench thier sexual desires that overwhlem them daily! EWWE!

I wouldn't want to wish being gay on anyone, let alone try to "convert" them, which is impossible anyway, because, for the final time, being gay isn't a choice. And I have no desire to run the world... Sorry, I don't think I have what it takes.

I don't know where you people get some of this stuff, but it provides for a good laugh!

Correction: the BSA USED to stand for something: citizenship. But since it's been hijacked be the far right it's moved away from that into something dark. Hopefully they will return by ending discrimination.

MJ1986: Were you sexually abused as a child?

Racism is wrong because it is based on something that is a physical characteristic rather than a chosen behavior. Sexual orientation may have a biological component, but acting on those urges is a choice. It's like alcoholism- there is a genetic predisposition, but the individual is the one making the choice to drink rather than to abstain. Is it fair that some people can indulge in alcohol while others should abstain completely for their own wellbeing? Perhaps not, but that's life. The same goes for homosexuality.

"Freedom for all is also freedom from all."

Not entirely. There is no right to a freedom from criticism. Yes, as a private organization we all agree they are free to make whetever rules they want to. But they exist in society and not in a vaccuum, and they need to decide how they want to be perceived, as well as what is best for themselves and their members in the long term.

@ West Chester:

"First, to RevSpinnaker - really? Now you being abused makes you homosexual? There is no scientific evidence to back that up."

Try the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA). Look up 'sexual abuse boys.' There's all sorts of adult ramifications.

My issue with this stems from the fact that the Boy Scouts are a private organization. While I am all for equal rights, I also feel that people have a right to decide who they want to associate with and one way they do that is by joining clubs and organizations of like minded people with similar interests. The Boy Scouts have always been about traditional family values. I think that they have a right to say that gays do not fit in with their organizations views or mission. I am tired of minorities in general, and gays in particular, trying to force there way in everywhere, even in private organizations where they are not wanted. There is this attitude in the gay community that they are going to try and force everyone and every organizations to accept them and their lifestyle choices. If the Boy Scouts were public, then they would have a right to push for membership. However, the Boy Scouts are not public and the organization does not agree with the lifestyle choice gays have made and do not want that influence on the children in their organization. As a private group that is their right. If gay want to form their own scouting group that accepts everyone let them, that is their right. But please stop trying to use the courts to force your way into private organizations where you are not wanted, it only hurts your cause. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with the Boy Scouts position, only that they have their right to it.

No Rev, do your own homework.

Toasty's back. The Phil Donahue of the newsvine.

*ponders* Reading the above commentary, I find myself asking which is worse? A bigot who doesn't realize they are a bigot? -or- A bigot who acknowleges their bigotry and doesn't care?

I'm so glad that so many of you turn to the Bible as your absolute, perfect, moral compass. I'm not sure how those of you that believe in the Bible as such eat shelfish, wear mixed/blended fabrics, cut your hair, shave, etc.; but I'm sure it isn't because of the crazy ---- that appears in books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Seriously, isn't it hypocracy to claim that the Bible claims homosexuality is a sin, but ignore other defined sins from the same Bible?

Ah, 'bigot', one of the catchphrases of the day. Use that word and you feel you have won, hands down.

I have been. I never said all gay people were molested. But there has been little funding to study sexual abuse of boys until recently, because of feminist and other social biases. Recent studiesfrom JAMA indicate it does have a profound effect on a child's sexual development. Prostitutes and child molesters also have a very high incidence of abuse as children.

All of the "gay animal" studies have been found to be inconclusive at best. ie - No solid evidence.

Show me a "closeted" African, Indian, Persian, Mexican, etc. {Though a bit simplistic, the point is made.}

Statistically in a normal healthy population, homosexuals make up less than 3% of the population. (the Centers for Disease Control’s National Center for Health Statistics. The number they listed was 2.3%. According to this survey, only 2.3% of the males surveyed considered themselves to be homosexuals; 1.8% considered themselves to be bisexuals. Among men ages 18-44, 92% said they were attracted “only to females”26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy." and 3.9% “mostly” to females. Among women, 86% said they were attracted only to males, and 10% “mostly” to males.)

Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals
.....
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
.....
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
.....
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
.....
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
.....
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
.....
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
.....
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The one who does not remember history is bound to live through it again" -- George Santayana

Facts are facts. Dispute them if you like, but I will NOT bend!

Scout Oath

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and
To obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

BTW - Former BSA / current Deist.

Toasty @ 2.32, NO the BSA have not been hijacked by anyone... yet. However, the gays are certainly trying just as they are trying to hijack many things such as marriage.

If anyone can come up with a valid reason why homosexuality is immoral without referring to a magic book, I'd love to hear it. There are hundreds of other species that have been known to exhibit homosexual tendencies within certain environments that those species inhabit. What do those species in those environments have in common? TOO MUCH reproductive success. And here we are with exponential increases in technology which have lowered our mortality rates and raised our birth rates to un-natural levels and yet we wonder what's with all the gays. Obviously we don't have all the answers yet, but the evidence is telling us that THERE IS A LINK BETWEEN HOMOSEXUALITY AND OVERPOPULATION. Oh no, God forbid that the religious actually practice some reproductive restraint once in awhile.

Really, 333, REALLY? So even though gay marriage doesn't prevent straight marriage, making it legal is "hijacking" it??? Once gay marriage is allowed, you're trying to tell us that straights won't be able to get married? When black Americans won the right to sit anywhere on the bus a white person could, did they "hijack" the public transportation system???

Barry: Did you really have to take up all that space for nothing? Another ploy to bring the bible into a discussion because that's how all gay people respond when we question their lifestyle?If so, then why don't you address the verses the bible has on homosexuality?

We are not talking about gay marriage, we are talking about the boy scouts.

The Boy Scouts were founded on religious principles. It is impossible to separate the two. Since it is a private organization, there is no need for the argument of separation of church and state.

Second, nobody wants their children to pick up the ideals that only 2% of the population seem appropriate. Children want role models so they can grow up to be like their parents. I know it is hard for you to understand, but no parent will willingly allow their children to be put into a situation where they don't trust the adults 100%.

Thirty, the Boy Scouts used to stand for all the best things in our country. Now they're one of the few organizations soiled by supporting its worst. Discrimination is disgusting, and there is no place for it in what was once an honorable organization.

What is with this "gay agenda" crap? Gay people are forcing their views upon America?!

Right...the "gay agenda" is a myth. These people have always been here. They have always been part of our community and families. They are just now standing up and demanding some recognition and respect for their goddamn humanity and you @!$%#ing bigots call that an "agenda?" You smear them by calling them child molesters or sexual deviants, you marginalize them, beat them up, bully them, fire them from their jobs, kick them out of your families, even murder them - and what has all that achieved? These people are still here and they are standing strong.

Their only agenda is to find out if YOU have any @!$%#ing humanity.

The BSA has always required a belief in "God", although they do not specify which god people choose to worship or how they choose to worship. Most major religions, including Islam, have strict prohibitions against homosexuality, and that is across cultures world wide. How did the majority of religions in the world come to the same conclusions about homosexual behavior? In any event, to fulfill the requirement of "honoring God and Country in the Scout pledge would also indicate a commitment to avoid homosexual activity....kind of like a pledge to remain a virgin....Are we going to start criticizing children, adults, and organizations that would advocate chastity as goal?????

Reading these comments...we've finally went absolutely insane as a people. I just don't know if I can take it anymore. Really people? Converting "normal" people to being gay so they have more partners? It's obviously a choice because otherwise they wouldn't wait to come out? Have you all lost your minds?

If my son was gay and wanted to be a boy scout but wasn't allowed that would be one of the saddest things I could imagine. In fact, my son isn't gay but I have no intention of having him enter such a den of religious and homophobic bigotry. And I WAS a Scout, thank you. I made it to 1st Class.

The vast majority of homosexuals are NOT rearing children, so unfortunately, in their zeal to push their agenda they forget about the protection of children. Sorry, children come first.

Many psychologists have concluded that homosexual tendencies arise from both nature and nurture. Anyone who has read anything about the homosexual experience knows that there are psychological elements to it.

Therefore, if people can slowly evolve homosexual tendencies - most without even knowing they are evolving that way - then we cannot expose our impressionable children to an environment that might confuse their young psyches.

Common sense is common sense whether or not you have lots of money, have lots of power, have a high IQ, or have all kinds of social connections.

RevSpinnaker

That's exactly what happens to children who are sexually abused and makes them feel the abuse was their fault. You actually provided "evidence" and "proof" that child sexual abuse has a profound influence over a child's developing sexual identity. Including the decision they are gay.

Child abuse has a wide range of affects and consequences, and has not been proven to cause homosexuality... as many heterosexual individuals were also abused. You are grasping at straws and trying to correlate one single cause to the resulting identity. All scientific data indicates that there is not one single cause, so your theory fails.

The release of dopamine and serotonin in your brain is not the result of child abuse, as everyone experiences these chemicals. The only difference is what triggers their release, and you have no control over that. Thus, attraction is not a choice, instead it is the result of the physiological response that releases these chemicals.

Perhaps you would like to post a picture of your wife, and we can decide if it is "normal" to be attracted to a woman with her physical features. There may be people that find her repulsive and do not understand how you can be attracted to her. But the truth is that she caused the release of those chemicals in your brain, and thus you were attracted to her... homosexuality is no different. They experience the same release of chemicals as you, the only difference being the features trigger this release.

Not being a boy I don't know everything from your side. But I know there are organizations on the female side of the scouting question beside GSA. Have you looked into the male equivalent of Campfire girls? Or is this just about forcing an organization to bend to your will.

Or is this just about forcing an organization to bend to your will.

It is not "forcing" anything. There are no laws, bills, or regulations being drafted.

They are private organization who have decided, on their own, to review their own rules. They have the right to do this.

Oh sigh* I could care less who a person finds attractive or chooses to sleep with at the end of the day as long as the person is of age and a willing partner. What does it have to do with whether or not a child or an adult should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts. It's so silly that people have such boring lives that they feel afraid of "gay" people, same people who would have been afraid of "colored" people 50 years ago, they just need to feel afraid of something or someone, because they don't have a purpose in life to keep them occupied. I just wish everyone would stop yacking about who they are banging or in a relationship with because it doesn't matter and shouldn't matter. What does it have to do with anything? And that comment about gay people converting strait people to create more partners ...excuse me but are you on Crack? That is just discombobulated conspiracy theory Enquirer-esqu crap. reminds me of my kids book- "the Sneetches." People will always hold different ideas, values and opinions...whether you have a star upon yars or not - in the end we are just all human beings.

mguy: The only reason they are considering doing this is because the gay community is forcing their hand publicly. Can you say hypocrite? I hope the Scouts stay strong in their convictions and beliefs. If being a scout is really that important to the mom, why doesn't she start her own scouting club? Because she wants others to be tolerant of her and doesn't give the same consideration in return. Why should they have to accept her? Because she's gay?

The only reason they are considering doing this is because the gay community is forcing their hand publicly

First off, they're not FORCING anything. They can't. Which is as it should be.

Second, yes there's light being shined on this. If the BSA truly believes that banning homosexuals is the right thing to do, what does it matter how much light is shined on it??? If they're feeling iffy, or doubting themselves, it's because they see a flaw in their convictions. I know, it's so much more convenient and easier to justify bigotry when no one is calling you out on it, right???

If banning gays is the proper thing, like so many of you claim, you should welcome the chance to stand in the light of your "proper" judgment and morals, not be whining about it. The rightous have nothing to hide, right?

Why should they have to accept her?

Again, no one is making them accept her, but if they did...

Because she's gay?

Because she's HUMAN.

I've sent an email report in to Newsvine on TrueLGBT's spamming.

I can't believe it. To allow Gays into the BSA would be a violation of both the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. This is not a issue of discrimination, or constitutional right. THis is a issue of SIN. These people are wanting approval to have this immoral SIN legalized. The word of God forbids this lifestyle and God even destroyed three cities because of it. BSA keep your stand for what is right ! The wages of sin is death and if you want to die before your time just keep on doing it. You will pay the price. You will have to stand before God someday. Yes, He is still alive contary to belieif !

violation of scout law???? What is that exactly...thou shalt be a bigot and a homophobe??

The only one paying a price here are pathetic throwbacks to age old bigotry and hatred and if you do believe in a judgement day, you ought to be the one to fear it.

Terry J Carter, many in the psychological field have noted the correlation between child sexual abuse and "sexual identity issues." If sexual molestation can make some people think they are gay, what specific condemnation does the Bible have for sex offenders? What cities destroyed? When is it ever even mentioned. Cite the chapter and verse please. I have yet to find any commandments against it.

violation of scout law???? What is that exactly...thou shalt be a bigot and a homophobe??

AP: This is just another way to bully people! Where did you learn that, from the liberal left. If being called a bigot and a homophobe is supposed to be bad then I"M PROUD OF IT! As are the thousands of other people who are forced to read this garbage on the news because MSNBC has decided to turn itself into a gay magazine rather than report real news.

Terry J Carter: I'm still waiting for that "thou shalt not sexually abuse children" commandment....

Why does God explicitly condemn homosexuality and not child molestation? Especially since child sexual abuse can cause homosexuality. I'd think he'd be more clear about that.

AP (post 3.2)

violation of scout law???? What is that exactly...thou shalt be a bigot and a homophobe??

I would list the Scout Oath for you, but why don't you just Google it. Do a bit of research before you make such foolish rants. Maybe you'll learn to do some critical thinking for yourself instead of making vapid and foolish comments.

.

The Bible says this about child abuse I don't know the exact scripture but it in there. it is better to have a mill stone tied around your neck and be cast into the sea then to hurt a child. What about our civil rights we are constantly bombarded by Gay this and Gay that. My daughter is gay she chooses to be.

I've heard that one about the millstone too. Not much considering all else the Bible condemns.

I know I wouldn't feel comfortable undressing and sharing a tent with a gay. Join the girl scouts!

rev, where do you get your info from ? child abuse/ molestation does no cause homosexuality ( LOL !) I have a cousin who was molested and he is not gay. homosexuality is a choice and anyone who believes that it is not , is full of it. i had another friend ( now deceased ) who use to date girls and then she later went on to marry a man and also have a child with him. i think a lot of gays say that they cannot help it so they do not get beat up or something, not that i believe that anyone should harm them physically anyway.

Mr. Binkie

I know I wouldn't feel comfortable undressing and sharing a tent with a gay. Join the girl scouts!

Well, I wouldn't feel comfortable undressing and sharing a tent with a guy who calls himself "Mr. Binkie."

Mr Binkie...uh nobody is really interest in your winkie.

Do you think every gay and every woman drops to their knees at the sight of you?

How delusional

Your 'uncomfortable-ness' is a YP, not an MP

I go to the mens room every day at work, I have no interest in seeing any of the men in the mens room, and that includes the other gay people who work there. Our company is very gay friendly, I have a pic of my hubby on my desk as do a large number of others (gay & straight) and it is not a problem. I don't see my co workers in any sexual way.

I also don't lust after my nephews or their friends, In fact I don't lust over just about anyone. And that includes the Boy Scouts who I counsel on merit badges, they may or may not know I am gay...but if they come to my office and look on my desk they would...if they cared or noticed the photos of my hubby and I.

This is not a issue of discrimination, or constitutional right. THis is a issue of SIN.

That's your opinion. Not fact.

The Bible, when read literally, calls for the execution of children who are willfully disobedient to their parents, for those who worship false gods and for those who commit adultery.

Bigotry is not innate and I don't think it's right for it to be taught to kids.

I'm comfortable with my heterosexuality, so homosexuality doesn't bother me in the least. How someone chooses to be Reverent should be up the the individual's belief and not dictated by the BSA. Change the policy, Eagle Scout 1983.

Its difficult for me that a person of the opposite sex would think I'm not sexy when I am..It tears away at the fabric of Nature, God predicted these days coming forth.

So true Keith Brackett!!!

Finally a smart and intelligent response ! ANY man that is ok with their own sexuality certainly isn't worried about any body's Else's life. The only man that yells the loudest has probably had issues in their closet that they are trying to hide.

has decided to turn itself into a gay magazine rather than report real news.

Unhappy-1583758

You nailed it..Also homophobe is a ground out word, never mentioned in any civil text form..

But . . . but . . . but . . . I don't believe in your god or religion. The scouts don't require anyone to be of the Christian denomination; however, they do require a following of a belief system. My belief system says nothing about condemning a person for his/her gender identity.

Being gay does not make one a sexual predator. Sexual predators come in all shapes, sizes and genders. Simply because someone is gay doesn't automatically mean s/he will rape you at her/his earliest convenience. As a matter of fact, most of the gay people I know are extremely conservative and live an all-American, monogamous, "apple pie" lifestyle. (Now that I think of it, most of the straight people I know will have sex with about anything that will hop into bed with them. Funny how that works.)

The ignorance regarding homosexuality (on this vine and many others) is astounding. How sad that in this day and age, folks really have no clue.

As for the Boy Scouts, it's their organization to make their own rules about. However, they really need to move out of this mindset that gay equals pervert. If they examined their records, they would discover that most of the pedophiles within their organization were straight. Opening eyes is sometimes a very difficult thing to do.

@ Sandra:

"rev, where do you get your info from ? child abuse/ molestation does no cause homosexuality."

The Journal of the American Medical Association. Note I never said all homosexuals were molested. And most children who were molested don't become gay, prostitutes or child molesters. However sexual abuse has a profound and negative effect on children's "sexual identity" and can influence their behavior in adult life. A very small percentage of the population, 1%-2%, is born sexually ambiguous, sometimes even possessing rudimentary genitalia of the opposite sex. A far greater number, at least 1 in 6 were molested as children. We need to seriously address that issue.

Hey it's this simple. If they allow these gays to join or lead the scouts and your kid is molested or worse, don't go sueing them or blame anyone. Personally, if my son was in scouts and I was told that his new leader puts from the ruff then I am pulling him out of there as fast as I can.

It is really simple people, parents don't want thier kids to have a scout leader that makes them come home and ask questions that involve sexual preference or any kind of sex questions when they are so young, especially the youngest scout groups. Yes, kids will learn there are people who live in different ways but it is part of life that kids don't need shoved in thier faces when they are too young to really understand it. It is a rule to protect the kids and those who have altermative lifestyles should stop trying to shove it in everyones faces, especially when it involves kids.

And by the way this must be how MSNBC gets their polls to come out the way they want. This article was not front and center last night and there is no way to vote now so once they get what they want, I guess they just shut down the voting!!! Now they can say it is as close as it looks but it won't be true because the vote was cut short.

You have the right to not belong (or have your children not belong) to any organization that you wish.

My family has decided that our boys will not participate in the Boy Scouts, as we don't wish to support an organization with discriminatory policies. The bigotry only helps to reinforce hate and misinformation (which you have clearly bought into, since you mention "kids being molested or worse" as if it has relevance to whether or not gays are permitted in the organization.)

Troops around where I live are barely staying afloat due to lack of participation. Perhaps if they came into the 21st century more would participate. Or perhaps you think that instead of moving forward in time, they should roll back the clock to where the laws and nonsense spewed were virtually the same... just substituting terms referring to those of African decent rather than those who are gay.

The BSA is sponsored by christian church groups most of the time, and christian beliefs state that being gay is a sin if you take it as a life style, they're just being cautious.

Shaking, et al. For those of you worried about sex and scouting, you should read the new scout book. I was quite surprised by the content regarding sexual activities. It was all very proper, but I was surprised (in a good way) to see the matter addressed in the manual. I'm not too sure that my 11-year-old grandson will understand, but in time, I'm sure he will.

Again, gay does NOT equal molestation, perversion or pedophilia. It's simply a different gender identification. People need to get past those old wives tales.

The Scouts must know by now - by watching what is going on with the marriage corruption movement and their Civil Union Trojan Horse - that once you open the door to these miscreants they spread through the system like cancer.

The Boy Scouts our a Christian organization. Why else would the Godless want to join a Christian organization other than to undermine the tenants of its beliefs.

BSA is a private organization, they have the right to accept and deny who they want. Homosexuals need to stop bombarding everyone, trying to force acceptance into society and organizations. Honestly if I have a son in boys scout and they give him a gay scout I'd pull him out simply because children are very impressionable and I wouldn't want to confuse him. BSA stand by your policy! Next thing you know gays will want to edit the Bible to take out everything negative about them.. smh..

Have any of you defending these miscreantsa looked up "Pervert" in the Dictionary:

Pervert:

:a unusual or abnormal sexual act that is nabitual; to use something incorrectly or improperly

What these miscreants do is the very definition of a perversion.

Miscreant:

: unbelieving, heretical

: depraved, villainous

Shaking my head-2479300

You are right on with your comment..our children's ears don't need to be thinking about this BS in our schools either.

Boy Scouts of America is a private organization that is founded/chartered on STRONG morals and principals which is then taught (Not INDOCTRINATED onto the children ). The parents and the children then decide if the Scouts are for them or not. These morals and principals are well grounded and proven to work (for them and many other families & children). They DO NOT nor should they CHANGE to meet the whim of a very small minority who do not posses the same views. I truly am very tired of ANY minority group trying to infiltrate another group to change or impose a policy change or a view. The simple solution would be to start up your own group. Now as far as having a Homosexual leading or teaching children - yes I have a very big problem with that. There is a close tie (Statistically) between homosexual behavior and pedophilia. Yes this is the unspoken truth. I am not saying all Homosexuals are this way but if their is a higher likely hood of bringing a pedophile near a child wouldn't we want to try to protect the children versus trying to get our agenda passed? Makes total sense to me.

Randy: "Why else would the Godless want to join a Christian organization" Why would a Christian (Love Thy Neighbor, Judge Not, Forgive 70 times 70) want to join an organization that is Godless (full of hate & fear, EXTREME JUDGEMENT, and condemnation ????) Christ taught LOVE and I'm just not feeling the love from some of the Christians (?) posting here.

" homosexuality is a choice and anyone who believes that it is not , is full of it"

When did you choose to be a hetero? Or were you born that way? Have you ever battled with yourself over it?

My guess would be, you've always been straight. You never had to make the choice, you just knew you were. Same goes with homosexuals.

And yes, homosexuality has also been linked to being molested.

Peace: The Christ taught that we should leave the sin and sin no more; not embrace and accept the sin as if it were a unavoidable fact of life. Christians are supposed to turn from sin; not accept it with open loving arms.

Shaking my head

MSNBC has an agenda , there is no doubt about it, part of their agenda is promote the culture liberalism , that include, homosexuality, legalization of marijuana, late term abortion, atheism, bigotry against Church and push their own level of morality . This attach against our values is part of a big agenda in order to establish a liberal society, remove God and replace for government, where the values and moral can be changed at expenses the degradation our society. We have more divorces than ever, dysfunctional families growing, single parents growing, more childs out of wedlock, more drug addiction and more corruption.

Whether or not someone believes in the true God and His Son Jesus Christ doesn't change the fact that those who do have a God-given (and civil) responsibility to protect children from abuse/neglect/and the influence of immoral conduct. God has made it clear in Romans 1 that He doesn't make people gay, it is a choice and He loves them enough to not control them, but in fact, hands them over to their sinful desires even though they're hurting themselves by their decision (seared consciences and disease). Even athiests who believe in the Big Bang theory and natural selection have to consider that if people are born gay, they'll become extinct. Athiests - if you have a desire to kill someone and you meditate on it all the time, you will likely carry it out. Should society eventually just change their laws to accommodate you? It's an extreme comparison but consider the principle. God decides what is right and what is wrong, when people turn away from God and call evil good, the decay of civilization is inevitable.

I
have to say that it is a private organization and but all you people that are
against gays in BSA then what would you do if they decided to let everyone but
Blacks or Asians? You bet there would be a law suit against them. Just because
a person is gay doesn't define their character. And that is what it should be
about. If we take people out of work place just because of who they have sex
that is just wrong and frankly I don't want to know who you have sex with or
what you do with them. It isn't any of my business and it isn't any of your
business to dictate who I am with either. Also those would quote the bible take
in account how long ago it was writing and what the world was enduring at that
time. A lot of stuff has changed and so should we. The old testament had only a
couple sayings about same sex relation but everything I have read in the New testament
I haven’t came a crossed it once. Just one thing I want to point out is that we are so quickly to use the bible for one or two passaages instead of reading everything that was written before and after that passage for example " King James Verision of the bible "" Leviticus 19:27-28 YE shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." SO that being quoted from the bible we should have everyone one arrested or even killed because of the way they cut their hair or have tattoo on their skin. Doesn't make sense in this day in age. So read the whole portion of the scripture and think why it was written for that time period and then think does it make sense for this time period.

Thank you for your time

why do we have to have a policy regarding SEX for BOYS in the first place ... whether it be anti or pro ... how about no sex policy.

The Catholic Church allowed Gay to become Priest thinking that was a good thing ... I am sorry but Gays in the Church didn't work out so well.

Hey, Peace322 ... In your eyes ... to be a good Christain we have to serve up our sons to some preverted homosexual transgender cross dressing as sexual things to be abused ... then you can count me not a good Christain ...

First they teach that homosexuality is an ok lifestyle in our schools. Now they want to infiltrate the Boy Scouts. Aren't our children safe anymore from these perverts? It is not wonder our country is going down the drain.

Hey redvirginia,

Keep your god and religion out of my government.

Signed,

Rational Thinking Human Being

Sorry I cannot watch while the Bible is twisted yet again. Jesus and the Bible for that matter taught Love yes. The definition Jesus taught about love is very different than what you are trying to spin here sir. You are trying to project your definition onto others. Its very simple. Jesus teaches to Love the sinner but to hate the sin. Jesus destroyed two cities because of Homosexuality. Homosexuality is an abomination in his eyes. We are just supposed to sit back at be told we are to TOLERATE it? I think not. The GREAT DECEIVER (Satan) is at war for each and every soul on earth right now. We ARE at war as Christians. As a Christians you should be pointing out the sin or at the very least praying for theses people. I would suggest for all True believers to put on your Armor of God (Ephesians 6: 10-18).

Jesus never said it was an abomination. That is a misquote.

In Leviticus, it is called an abomination. So is eating shrimp, wearing clothes made of multiple materials, slavery is okay, and touching the skin of a dead animal is a sin...

Do you ever eat shrimp pasta? Or watch football? Mmmmm, you just sinned.

But that's the old Law of Moses isn't it? It isn't enforced by God anymore? Oh... well, then why is homosexuality still an issue?

Okay, folks, here's the clear quill on the origins of homosexuality:

Sexual orientation is a continuum. Not preferences or choices, but pure objective sexual orientation. If a person says he is 100% heterosexual or homosexual, that person is absolutely wrong. No one, dspite their protestations, is entirely one or the other in sexual orientation. It is a scale and every person falls somewhere on that scale even most people claim to be clustered at either end of the scale. This is because people confuse choices and preferences with sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation is made up of hundreds, if not thousands of components --- individual switches, if you will. These switches are set before birth, or by parenting, or by environment. Current research on twins indicates that overall, the environment shared by twins (including familial and societal attitudes) explained 0–17% of the choice of sexual partner, genetic factors 18–39% and the unique environment 61–66%. It is an extremely complicated issue with no clear or definitive "cause".

But two things stand out in ALL research on the causes of homosexuality: a) there are different mechanisms at work between gay men and lesbians --- what holds true for one does not necessarily hold true for the other. This would be expected because of the huge cultural and genetic differences between males and females. b) sexual orientation can be easily measured before puberty. Most homosexuals relate that they knew they were "different" well before they knew anything about sex. Essentially this means that sex itself plays a very minor role in sexual orientation.

Homosexuals are not in society where people expect them. For example, the military and professional sports have about double the percentage of homosexuals as is found in the general population. This isn't because homosexuals like to be with other homosexuals so much as when a child discovers that he is different, usually before puberty, a natural reaction is to concentrate on gender-based activities such as playing soldier, cowboy, or sports. Often, for homosexuals, these can take the form of over-compensation. Then, when the person grows to adulthood, the need for over-compensation disappears as sexual orientation becomes fixed, but the interest in the military or football remain along with developed skills and knowledge. Florists, on the other hand are virtually all heterosexuals.

So why do people get so upset about homosexuality. There is no one forcing anyone into homosexual relationships, so what is the big deal? The issue is that from puberty until around the age of 26 for men and 24 for women, sexual orientation is still not fixed. If you combine the "loose" nature of sexual orientation with the fact that it is a continuum rather than an off/on switch, you get a lot of sexual angst. It isn't the homosexuals who are a threat. It is the unresolved sexual issues within the individual that threatens that individual. It is incredibly characteristic of both closeted homosexuals (such as both Congressmen Craig and Foley) and people wrestling with their own sexual identity issues that they "doth protest a bit too much" as Shakespeare said. In psychology it is called "transference" or "deflection." But if I wanted to search NewsVine for those I suspected of being gay, I would make a list of the loudest protesters.

But the bottom line is that gay people do not threaten a well-adjusted person. It is not a disease that can be caught or a life lesson that can be taught. But at the end of the day, gay people add value to the human race by adding diversity. Diversity is the greatest single protection that the human race has against all outside forces. And diversity is what keeps life from being boring.

But seriously, why do they feel compelled to force their own immoral conduct on the BSA. Just go out and create your own program, don't try to force your own beliefs and conduct on others.

@ John-2006106, there is NOTHING immoral about loving the person your heart leads you to love, no matter their sex, race, religion, creed or disabilty. And there is NOTHING stating that there is anyone trying to FORCE their own beliefs/conduct on anyone in this case. If this is how you feel, remove your blinders, open your eyes to tolerance and go speak to the countless Christians who feel the need to FORCE others to believe in their "god". There is nothing telling Christians to force anyone to believe the way they do, they are told "to witness" which means to just share their experiences and hope that draws people to their beliefs. No gay I have ever met has tried to force someone to be gay against their will, but every Christian I've ever met tries to force their faith upon others. Asking, or even demanding, to be accepted as part of an organization does NOT mean you are forcing your beliefs on others. I guarantee you there are countless gays in the Boy Scouts at this very moment, it's just that as of right now they are forced to remain in the closet about it; just like the military's old "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". So, pull your head out of your house and seek enlightenment before you try to sound like you know what you're talking about, because I sure as hell know you don't have a clue.

However sexual abuse has a profound and negative effect on children's "sexual identity" and can influence their behavior in adult life.

Indeed it can, but that doesn't make it the cause of homosexuality - I know many homosexuals that were never abused.

These people are wanting approval to have this immoral SIN legalized

News Flash, Terry: It already is legal

Yes, He is still alive contary to belieif !

And with followers like you? Lucky guy....

@ Chris-749391:

Well said! Well said, indeed! But, while most florists are heterosexual, you did forget that most male interior decorators are homosexual :P j/k. I couldn't agree with your entire statement more!

For the yeasayers: We scouts have our own f****** right to decide wether we shall allow homosexuals in the BSA. The SUmpreme Court has upheld this right. You faggots are not and never were Socuts and therefore have no right to comment. I have no problem with homosexuality, but these resolutions in Socuting, Congress, and the White House are too far. It now appears that discrimination is most likely against straights than gays. You fags would think more clearly if you got your partner's d*** out of your mouth. You are not Scouts, you can not comment. Being a boy can be defined anatomically or sexually. Shouldn't boys be able to have a weekend away from girls and dating? Yes, but now there's going to be a homosexual two inches away from them who is afraid of dirt and one way or another wants to get in their sleeping bag. A gay kid would only join scouts to flirt with a straight kid. Any straight scout who reads this, pos HELL NO!

As a straight and proud Eagle Scout I have only this to say to you:

You are a disgrace to the Scouts' purpose, and a blight on the ass of humanity. Get ye hence.

terry j carter homosexualty is not a SIN because the bible is not real and nether is god so u can shove the holy book up ur a$$! have a nice day :)

We scouts have our own f****** right to decide wether we shall allow homosexuals in the BSA.

I don't see people telling you that you don't have the right. A private organization has all the right in the world to be as bigoted and discriminatory as it pleases. The KKK has that right as well.

But just because you have the right, doesn't make it right.

The twelth law is to be Reverant Before God. How are scouts supposed to act when the Bible both Old and New Testiments do not condone this sort of behavior yet a person in there troop or crew is one of the lifestyles that fall into the catagory of homosexualaity? In my opinion it would basically tear the orginization apart. I held basically ever position in the scout level of leadership from the patrol leader to junior assistant scout master. I made Eagle Scout and was the 4rth in my family and was the 9th Yonce to recieve it. I believe in all the values of the Scout Oath, Motto, and Law. I am not a perfect person. There are groups and clubs all over that do not allow certain types of people in there group. I believe in equality to a point. Not everyone is entitaled to everything they want. If everyone got there way then the world would probably be a worse off. If I offended then I am srry that I did. I believe in the Christian Bible. I believe in the Foundations that Lord Baden powell started this great association on. I will be tried and persecuted for these belief and i will find joy in all of this. For Jesus said that I will be persecuted in His name. God Bless all who reed this. Delete this if you want to but by doing so, you show I win. Jesus loves you all. My he have the glory and never me. God Bless.

The twelth law is to be Reverant Before God. How are scouts supposed to act when the Bible both Old and New Testiments do not condone this sort of behavior yet a person in there troop or crew is one of the lifestyles that fall into the catagory of homosexualaity

Which God? Your God? My God? It doesn't say to be reverent to YOUR God, does it? My God doesn't believe in discrimination. Is my God less relevant than your God in a country founded upon Freedom of Religion? Is my God illegitimate, then, and only your God can make the rules? Does your God just so happen to conveniently agree with your ideology?

Isn't it often the excuse that "God" in context of the Scouts and 'In God We Trust' is a generic higher being that can apply to all religions? Isn't that the whole (bullsh!t) explanation used to justify it? So how come this generic all-encompassing "God" suddenly becomes your specific God with your particular petty dogmatics when it comes to denying others equality?

Jesus loves you all.

Except whoever the Bible is being used to discriminate against at a certain point in time.... be it Jews, or Blacks, or Women, or Gays....



I believe in the Christian Bible.

Some folks should try believing in Christ before worrying themselves about the Bible.

The twelth law is to be Reverant Before God.

It does not specify a god. I went through Boy Scouts and became an Eagle Scout as an agnostic.

Great post!

There is a close tie (Statistically) between homosexual behavior and pedophilia.

WRONG. In fact, approximately 90% of all pedophiles/child molesters are heterosexual, married men (like Jerry Sandusky).

WRONG. In fact, approximately 90% of all pedophiles/child molesters are heterosexual, married men (like Jerry Sandusky).

Wrong: Same-gender sex addicts are more than (40) times more likley to molest children than their "heterosexual: counterparts.

Jerry Sandusky is accused of molesting boys Erin; 98% of the Catholic priests caught up in the molestation scandal are self identified "Homosexuals." The co-founder of NAMBLA was also the founder of the very first New York based "Homosexual" rights organization.

The actuals do not support your ridiculous assertions to the contrary.

When did you choose to be a hetero? Or were you born that way? Have you ever battled with yourself over it?

My guess would be, you've always been straight. You never had to make the choice, you just knew you were. Same goes with homosexuals.

And pedophiles? Or is it a choice for them? Just curious how you feel about pedo's? Are they being trampled on and their rights being discriminated against?

there is NOTHING immoral about loving the person your heart leads you to love, no matter their sex, race, religion, creed or disabilty.

Again, does this include pedophiles?

I know gays hate being compared to pedophiles, but that is because they don't want people to see that it is all about sexual choice (or being born that way). Whichever you choose you still have to classify pedo's in the same category.

I can love anyone without making it sexual and that is perfectly normal. I love many men, women, and children, but the minute I introduce sex into the equation I become gay, straight, or pedo.

We need to stop this insanity NOW!

Go be gay, but don't force everyone to accept who you are for it. Just as I don't accept pedophiles for what they do I will never accept gays for what they do.

"The Boy Scouts of America is considering a resolution that calls for ending a 102-year-old policy they’ve grappled with in recent years: banning gay scouts and scout leaders"

I was not aware that the scouts excluded "gay" scouts, only leaders. If true (which I doubt) they should re-think that aspect. Bottom line; I would not be comfortable with my son being in a boy scout troop with a homosexual leader, and I won't be PC'd into believing otherwise. I don't believe the scouts should be either.

The difference between homosexuals and pedophiles, is children don't choose to be molested. Homosexuals are consenting adults.

For you or anyone, to compare the two is ignorant.

Reading through many of these messages (pro and anti) is disheartening. I understand that homosexuality is a make-up of a person and I do not believe God will condemn a person for being the way that individual was made in God's eyes. Remember, most Christians believe in preditination i.e. everything has a purpose and Gad has a bigger plan. So none of use should condemn a person for who they are.

I've known many gay men and women and although I disagree with their lifestyle, I understand them and accept them. However, I ask them to understand my [and others like me] opinion and beliefs. BSA is a private, Christian based organization and includes God in its teachings. Those teachings as well as the Oath and Law of BSA is against homosexual practices and we cannot teach young men one thing and then practice another.

Additionally, in scouting young men share very close quarters and at this age (10-18) they are emotionally not prepared to confront the feelings they will encounter. This is simply a situation that should not be forced on anyone.

If those who are gay and lesbian wish to establish their own private national youth program and not allow heterosexuals to join, I fully support their position.

I don't care if homosexuals are scout masters or if gay kids are in scouts. Chances are the kids joined long before they knew if htey were gay or not anyway...

That being said, I would hope that a gay scout master would not be so in your face "I'm here and I'm queer" that the younger scouts would be coming home asking questions.

I'm okay with answering why Mr. Smith lives with Mr. Jones and Bobby calls them both daddy.

I'm not ok with answering why Mr. Smith likes to wear lipstick and slaps Mr. Jones on the rear when he brings out brownies from the kitchen.

The knee jerk reaction is a backlash to the gay pride demonstrations that have put flamboyant over the top homosexuals in the public eye. For many people this is the only side of Homosexuals they have ever seen. Guys in pink boas and high heels gyrating on top of a float lipsynching Pointer Sisters tunes. They haven't seen the gay family man, living the exact same way his heterosexual counterparts do except with a man as a partner instead of a woman. IMO - Gay activists need to put this "normal gay guy" out there now as their poster boy and lose the party boy image.

Heterosexuals and homosexuals have different sexual preferences [surprise], just as males and females -- of whichever group -- do. If homosexual males are admitted to membership in the boy scouts then what about females [of whatever preference]? Only for 'boys?' Well why stop there?

Why??? Well the thought of young boys and girls sharing close quarters on camping trips -- for instance -- is going to take a little getting used to, just as the thought of ANY young individuals with differing sexual preferences sharing close quarters would.

Most of us could get used to most social change --- but it's going to take a very long time.

@shuklack

Reverant to God, Captialized rather than to "a god" is the distinction here. "a god" could mean budda, Allah, Alcohol, etc... , "God" captialized has always referred to the God of the Bible and Christianity. Therefore, in order to be reverant to that God, you cannot allow the leadership to be comprised of people that are blantently going against His Laws. He has commanded us to be separate from sin, Ep 5:7 "Be not ye therefore partakers with them" Also, the rest of that law concerning to be tolerant of other faiths, can only be construed as to mean other denomination in the Christian Faiths, not other gods, otherwise the first part of the law would say to be reverant to "a god" instead of God.

@Tod2791955, I do believe that you are correct, they do not exclude gay scouts(children) only gay leaders. there should never be a reason for sexual orientation to be even asked in a scout function.

RandyEK NAMBLA is a canard you right wing zealots use to attempt to make a point, but a national organization (If you can even call them that) with under 100 members worldwide is simply a tiny fringe group fr which you will never find any support for in the mainstream gay community. In fact at the Stonewall 25 March in NYC they were banned, they took to the streets anyway with only about 10 people and physical altercations broke out. (I know I was there when they jumped out and started it. THe regular Heritage of Pride March which organizes the annual march in most years allows them to march, not because they support them, but because they will allow any group that applies and attends the training session (March Marshalls who are taught where, when and how to participate for each group) is allowed to March. This was clearly proven the year a homophobic hate group called Straight Kids USA applied and was approved (They failed to actually show up). There was one NAMBLA member who was a member of Heritage of Pride, Some people would speak to him during the meeting on march business matters, but once the meeting was over I never saw anyone talk to him, and he was never invited to go out to eat with the rest of the group, IE he was shunned. He tried to talk to me once after a meeting and I told him to GTF away from me. I do not know if he still attends, but he had the national member list once with him for mailing labels, it was 2 1/2 pages long in total, with 30 labels on each page.

The person you refer to as a founder of NAMBLA, Harry Hay, was never been a member at all. He said he supports their rights to participate in Gay Pride events after they had been banned from doing so. He was not himself a pedophile. What he was was the very radical element of the gay community, though he dropped out of most of it in the 1950s & 60s. He was a character, played an important early role, but got out when he felt the push for our rights was too 'assimilationist' IE that the overall vast majority of us are just average everyday people...just with a little more taste which is obviously acknowledged by straights.

Also Jerry Sandusky is straight and married with kids. Most Pedophles only have relations with adults of the opposite sex, their attraction to children is one of control, and those pedophiles are mostly molesting kids of the opposite sex (About the same percentage as the percent of gays in the population) Most molesters are family members or close family friends. The rare stranger who molests kids of the same sex is married to a member of the opposite sex, they are attracted to the 'feminine' quality of young boys (I know gross) which is the opposite of most adult gays who prefer a more masculine person. We adult gays might watch a drag queen doing a show, but we have our eye on the hot guy in the T shirt and Jeans.

By the way...GAY Eagle Scout with two Palms here (To those who don't know you earn "Palms" by earning more merit badges after becoming an eagle. Only 1 in 200 who begins scouting makes Eagle (Number may have changed since I was a Scout--I think they made it easier). I also served as a Cub Pack Assistant when my Mom was a Den Leader (I have forgotten what the name for that was)

Discrimination will exist as long we have people of different colors , differed sex. In Congress Bakck discriminate against whites, they have a black caucus for blacks only, Negro Colleges fro blacks only and so, Woman discriminate against man, having pep squad, cheerleader only for woman , so everibody is discriminate in certain level, will the black caucus alowed white members, will cheerleaders will allowed mans in their group, will girlscouts alowed trasvestys sleep in the same tents with girls.

Ok some of you will read my opinion on this and agree and some won't, DUH.

The BSA issue:

So here's the deal. As a private organization the BSA has a right to stand by whatever set of morals and principals they believe in. Weither or not you agree with that is fine. You get to choose to participate and/or support BSA based on your beliefs. If you decide you want to be a part of an organization with a different set of morals and beliefs you can start/join one and I sure as heck am not going to demand you change them to fit with mine. So I disagree that BSA should have to change their stance. You have the freedom to agree with their stance or think their Bigotted for it-that's the beauty of America we have the freedom to follow our own beliefs. Forcing a private organization to have a Universal set of beliefs is a total impingment on our freedom. Scary stuff will start to happen if we start demanding political correctness in every aspect of our lives as Americans.

The Beliefs Issue:

Ok here is my personal belief system so you understand where I'm coming from. I am a born again Christian who has trusted Jesus Christ as my savior. I believe that I was in a state of sin against God that I was helpless to get out of, but God in great generosity desired to make a way to restore relationship with me soJesus Christ humbled himself as God and took my place to my sins on the cross. I didn't deserve it in the least bit but Jesus did it for me-that's love. I believe as a Christian the Bible spells out a set of principals to live by to help me maintain closeness to God. Like a parents raises their kid to follow a set of principals they believe is for their child's best, God has a set of principals that He knows is for my best. So I choose to believe and follow the Bible as God's inspired word. Now I don't agree with every single thing about BSA, but enough of it that I was proud to have been apart of it and have obtained my Eagle Scout. Now your beliefs may be so different from mine that you decide BSA is not for you. Well that's completely ok. You have the right in this country to say all the negative things about BSA and I have the right to agree with BSA.

The Bible Issue:

Ok there has been some confusion on what the Bible says about homosexuality so I thought I'd post some verses and references. Now some of you may not agree with the Bible and that is your choice. But for those of you choosing to quote it or choosing to use it as a standard here are some of the things it says about homosexuality:

Old Testiment:

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"

Now its important when looking at old testiment passages to realize the context. I think there has been significant confusion as to the context of the old testiment on post I'd read here. In the old testiment God gave Israel (His chosen people and nation) a law to live by to keep them from straying from them. Often times the punishments were severe and some things seem to make little sense. Some of this is thought to be God trying to protect peoples health etc. In the case of other nations he often required Israel to leave no one alive or still around from nations they conquired. He did not want them intermingling and desensitizing the people from God. The times Israel disobeyed and allowed other nations to mingle you see them following other Gods. Some of the nations Israel conquered too were just plain evil (human sacrifices of children etc) and allowing them to survive would allow that evil to continue into Israel. Now whatever your beliefs on the Old Testiment, God clearly does not condone or allow homosexuality in the Old Testiment. The destruction of Sodom and Gomora is another example. The people tried to have sex with the Angels God sent to lot possibly implying homosexuality.

New Testiment:

Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the mean also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Here this verse is written to believers saying if you have made Christ the savior of your life your identity no longer rests in the sins but rather the righteousness of Christ. But those who are unsaved and are living by the sinful things listed above (including homosexuality) it says will not inherit the kingdom of God. So here's what I believe. I believe that God made us so that natural relations are for a man a woman to be united in marriage. But because of mans sins and desire to be away from God, God has allowed unnatural relations as mentioned in Romans to run rampant. I think that we all have different sins we struggle with or are tempted by and I think homosexuality is one of them. But I also think lust towards and opposite sex person is sin as well. Now when I decided to repent and accept Christ into my life to save me and change me my flesh and its desires did not just disapear. My spirit is not washed clean and desires to follow God and pursue the things of Him but my flesh is at war with my spirit and still desires to satisfy itself. I then make the choice to live by the spirit or live by my flesh and I choose to make my identity in Christ in the one God has given me or to make my identity in the sins that I sometimes stumble into. Now again these are my personal beliefs and many will agree. But not everyone who follows Christ and the Bible is out to hate Gay people. I don't hate homosexuals at all. I hate the sin, the act of it, what it does in creating rifts between people and God. But I love the people who stuggle with it, even the people who believe that is their identity and so does God. But just because you love someone doesn't mean you accept everything they do as ok. When I talked back to my parents as a kid they didn't say "oh thats ok because we love you and accept you". How ridiculous! No they disciplined me BECAUSE they love me. If I see a friend engaging in something distructive to their life it is not love for me to say "ya man go ahead bro, its all good". But its also not love to say "What the %^&$ is wrong with you? get your act together! Clean yourself up!". What is right is to say "hey bro I can't stand by watching you do this to yourself. This is distructive to your life. I will love you and be your friend despite disagreeing with you but I can't say nothing and pretend to agree. Thats not love at all"

So theres my long explanation to a lot of things. But I think the base issue comes down to BSA holding set of beliefs and they should be allowed to. And you should be allowed to agree or disagree with them. I will never put my future kids in scouts if homosexuals are allowed to openly lead. Why? Because I'm a Bigot? NO! Because there's already enough out their telling my kid whats contrary to what God says and so why would I further involve him and allow him to be influenced by putting him in and organization that openly says its ok to do what God says is not. That's the reason! It would have nothing to do with me hating the leader at all! But I would also have a problem with a Stripper leading the boy scout trooper because I don't want my kid to think that's ok either. The thing that makes this such a difficult topic is that people are so divided on weither its natural or unnatural to be homosexual. But forcing it one way or another on a private organization is not right. BSA gets to choose and I hope they stick with their decision.

The BSA issue:

They must give up all publicly granted funds if they violate public discrimination laws.

The Beliefs Issue:

I am an openly agnostic Eagle Scout. There is no requirement to follow the Christian god.

The Bible Issue:

Do not ever quote Leviticus unless you live and follow every rule it states.

Romans: "inflamed with lust"; the sin is lust, not homosexuality.

Corinthians: "homosexual offenders"; this term is open to a lot of ambiguity as to its meaning, but several translations believe it speaks of the same issue of Romans, which is lust and other sins unrelated to specifically homosexual sex.

Finally, Jesus himself never spoke against homosexuals, after undoing the Leviticus laws by his words. Only his followers and others who had never met him claim that.

"God" captialized has always referred to the God of the Bible and Christianity.

There are lots of different kinds of Christianity - many of which are pro-gay.

not other gods, otherwise the first part of the law would say to be reverant to "a god" instead of God.

So you're saying the official line from legislators who defend "Under God" and "In God We Trust" who say that it means a generic all-encompassing "God" for all faiths are.... gasp... full of bullsh!t?

"God" captialized has always referred to the God of the Bible and Christianity.

I missed this comment, which is a complete and utter lie.

@Bob-3215303 - What would it end? except discrimination of course.

Only if those who disagree maintain their "head up the butt" attitude. Just what is it that you think will happen with gay scout leaders? That they will "recruit" kids to a gay lifestyle? Nothng could be further from the truth (anymore than heterosexual scout leaders doing recruiting), or do you fear the kids will be perped. on by "gay pedophiles"? Still so untrue....more heterosexual individuals are pedophiles than gays, that's just cold hard statistics. What is it you fear exactly...get it out there and then take a look and see if that makes any sense at all.

Not allowing gays to serve as scout leaders is discriminatory. If the BSA wish to be known as a discriminatory organization, they're well within their rights. Times change. Attitudes change.

Both the BSA and the GSA are Congressionally-chartered organizatione, not private "clubs." As such, just like the Post Office or other Congressional Chartered organizations, they need to be held to a higher, more Constitutional standard. If they want to deviate from the "highest standard available, then let them yield their charters and take their chances as a non-profit organization. As Harry Truman said, "If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

"If blacks can use the same water fountain as us it destroys society."

"If Whites and Blacks can marry it'll end marriage."

"If gays can get married it will destroy marriage."

The only thing destroyed is the idea that you can discriminate because its a personal club, and mormons control it. And this is not encroaching on the BSA, this was filed by members to change their own organization. I stand with this change as a proud eagle scout.

Times do change, and now we're changing away from an ideal of human society into a waste of atheistic decay. absolutely disgusting. Sodomy is disgusting, prostitution is disgusting, loose women are disgusting, fornicating men are disgusting. All of you people need to learn who God is before we lose our country for good.

(Maybe you should start by NOT assuming that I am a Christian...)

And thats funny sarcasm H&M because, if you haven't noticed, marriage IS being destroyed!

BobW,

"If gays are allowed to participate that will be the end of the Boy Scouts. Just fact."

I think the same sort of argument was used against repealing "Don't Ask; Don't Tell" in the military. So far at least, I have not seen an end of our military.

Chris-749391

Both the BSA and the GSA are Congressionally-chartered organizations, not private "clubs." As such, just like the Post Office or other Congressional Chartered organizations, they need to be held to a higher, more Constitutional standard. If they want to deviate from the "highest standard available, then let them yield their charters and take their chances as a non-profit organization.

Chris, your comment is an opinion, not a fact. The Supreme Court has clearly ruled that they are a private organization. Whether you like it or not - this is the fact, not your opinion. Do what you want, but don't make crap up to support your stupidity.

The influence of Scouting on American society is frequently cited by both its advocates and critics. Critics have called the BSA's membership obligations unfair, resulting in litigation in various state and federal courts. In 2000, the Supreme Court ruled in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale that Boy Scouts, and all private organizations, have the constitutionally protected right under the First Amendment of freedom of association to set membership standards

Not allowing gays to serve as scout leaders is discriminatory.

No, it's not. The BSA is a PRIVATE entity and as such can make any rule they want.

No, Bob W, that's just a dumb belief. Beliefs aren't facts. Just ask anybody who tried to walk on water.

Bob: That's what Truman was told when he desegrated the Army. He was told the "facts" were no white soldier would serve and fight next to a black one. You might want to revisit that "fact" of yours in a few years when people are incredulous that there ever was such blatant homophobia masquerading as "private" rights.

@bahska it would end because parents will stop supporting and allowng their chidren to enlist in the organization!! Therfor it will nothing more than a place for The gay people to fly thier rainbow colored flag. Kappesh?

I totally agree, that will be the end of boy scouts. Also, I taught my family that practicing this sick lifestyle is wrong, and I will never change my mind about that.

@jenjune7

First of all, the debate is on whether to allow chartering organizations to have their own policies on allowing homosexual leaders, instead of a blanket national ban. Trust me, if this passed, any troop that would lose members if there was a gay dad or lesbian mom as a leader wouldn't allow it. And yes, the BSA has the right to determine their leadership and membership requirements, which is why this is an internal decision prompted by a call from many scouts, adult leaders, and scouting alumni.
Are there some GLBT people who would make poor scout leaders? For sure, just like there are some straight people who would make poor scout leaders. The fact that my scout leaders were or weren't married had absolutely no effect on their ability to teach me the skills and values of scouting, and neither would the matter of who they were romantically attracted to.

The BSA needs good leaders, and sexual orientation has nothing to do with what kind of scout leader someone could be.

-John Elder, Eagle Scout class of 2006

Jen: Absolutely true. No parent wants their child to be surrounded by ANOTHER gay agenda. It's bad enough that we have to endure it if we send our children to public school, but now a gay agenda from a recreational activity is being forced upon us?

The world doesn't revolve around 2% of the people who claim to be gay. So get over it!!!!!!!!!

The point is this is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION. So why should this even be a factor?

Both the BSA and the GSA are Congressionally-chartered organizatione, not private "clubs." As such, just like the Post Office or other Congressional Chartered organizations, they need to be held to a higher, more Constitutional standard. If they want to deviate from the "highest standard available, then let them yield their charters and take their chances as a non-profit organization.

What decade would you like them to quote? The 1910's? Either way, gays lose. You just solidified their argument for restriction.

STATUTE-
      The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through
    organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of
    boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in
    scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance,
    and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by
    boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

Nothing in there about civil rights or inclusiveness. Good luck.  

IDIOT!

Girl Scouts is thriving even with their *GASP* non-discrimination policy. Plus, the gov't is not "forcing" this change, Boy Scouts are looking to change the rule due to pressure from other boy scouts, and those who want to support boy scouting now and in the future. BSA is going to have to eventually change their rules or they will die. Will some people quit for it, yes, but others (like me, an active leader for my daughter's girl scout troop) will become active in BSA.

If it were up to me................I would give the Gays a jar of Vasoline and shove them back into their closets. You Creeps are not Normal. Start your own Gay Scouts of America. Leave the normal people alone already.

for all you people who accuse other people of not accepting gays, as bigots and discriminatory, it also applies to people criticizing normal people for not accepting their ( gay ) lifestyles .i guess we can call you bigots and discriminatory.

BobW-3215303

If gays are allowed to participate that will be the end of the Boy Scouts. Just fact.

No, that's an opinion. A statement does not become a fact just because you call it one.

Girl Scouts is thriving even with their *GASP* non-discrimination policy.

Speak for yourself , West Chester. I don't buy cookies from the Girl Scouts anymore!

By the way, they use to have a claim to fame because of all the other female scientists who were once scouts, but no longer. Little girls don't have be told anymore how having sex might interfere with their dreams. Now it's just a question of whether they used protection.

I say that in the next 20 years, you will see the damage Planned Parenthood has done to the Girl Scouts. So much for their non-discrimination policies.



If the boy scouts can't survive without teaching bigotry, then we are better off without them.

I've been hit on by homosexuals before, and being straight, this has left me feeling very uncomfortable. Maybe you gay-rights advocates can see where we're coming from- it's not just about the bible. We don't like being fantasized about by homosexuals, and if homosexuality started spreading as a result of these countless proposals being passed, I'm sure riots would start and such. Ultimately, it's the Boy Scouts' decision, but if their policy has worked for over 100 years, I'd say it would be safest to keep it.

Cinamod, I too have been hit on by a guy. I wasn't offended, I just politely told him that I was married and I wasn't interested. I was flattered though, he was a handsome man. Just made me feel better about myself knowing that people still find me attractive.

A few of my wife's gay friends have been hit on by women, but my wife's friends don't get offended. They just politely tell them that they're gay.

To each their own though.

@Bob,

Do you know how many of Alabama's football players are gay? LOL About twice the percentage as the university's student body. Roll, Tide, Roll. Did you know the outgoing President of UA was gay? Or that he was involved in a scandal in his early days at UA when he was caught sodomizing an underage employee's son? Pretty common knowledge on campus. And for that matter, watch how Saban walks and dresses and get back to me on his orientation.

It would end everything that the Scouts stand for.... Its basically like saying an imam in a mosque was openly gay.

BobW, you're an idiot. It wouldn't end anything. Do you know the number of people you encounter on a daily basis are likely gay and you have no clue? People as idiotic as you (and Igor above my comment) might as well just be shut-ins, because you have no clue of the functionality of society and the true number of gays "hiding" within it. Psshh...

And LMAO @ Cinamod, you're apparently extremely uncomfortably with your own sexuality, and have likely, based on your statements, had homosexual thoughts yourself. Not saying that's fact, I'm just basing that assumption on the knowledge that the louder one speaks out against homosexuality and the less comfortable they are with someone else's the more likely they are to have "tendencies" themselves. My husband has been hit on multiple times by gay men, and while he tells them politely that he is straight and married, he finds it extremely flattering. It actually makes him feel like an even more attractive man than he already is to know that not only women, but men as well find him attractive. Don't be such a prude and realize that it's actually a compliment to be hit on by someone of the same sex, whether you're male or female lol.

Awww  Cinamod, were you made to feel uncomfortable?  You know that if you were secure in your own sexuality it would not make you feel uncomfortable, right?  You'd just do what Scenester said, 'thanks but no thanks'.



I say that in the next 20 years, you will see the damage Planned Parenthood has done to the Girl Scouts. So much for their non-discrimination policies.

Unhappy - In the next 20 years, people with your attitude will be looked at in the same way that those old racist dinosaurs are looked at today.

for all you people who accuse other people of not accepting gays, as bigots and discriminatory, it also applies to people criticizing normal people for not accepting their ( gay ) lifestyles .i guess we can call you bigots and discriminatory.

Lol, deft twist of circular logic there - you are a true mental giant! "People who are against bigotry are bigots for being against bigots!" lol.... it's just that sort of mindnumbing stupidity that comes from those with your point of view that only further convinces me that I'm in the right.

Shuklack is right Cinamod.

Its the same for people who say orientation is a choice. If at some point they had to make a conscious decision to be "strait" then that means their own orientation is in question. I'm strait but I never chose to be. I just am.

I think it could be a good thing to let men become girl scout leaders, and to let women become boy scout leaders, this way boys and girls would have both examples to compare with in their young minds, to make choices that will mold their lives! both girls, and boys would have men and women in both groups to kind of balance the training field; men have daughters, women have sons, it might be a better way to work out things in the long term scheme of it all!!!

You know, in reading some of the extremely bigoted comments on here, one thing is clear: bigots cannot spell nor use proper grammar. (LOL) Those of you who are true Christians and/or just decent fair minded human beings, there's no use trying to change the minds of these people - ignorance has clouded their judgment. They will believe what they want to believe. Frankly, I believe that civil rights are for everyone, not just for straight, white males, but I'm sure some of the people who are so against gays having the same rights as everyone else are some of the same people who voted for the Republicans who just voted down the "Fair Pay Act" for women; also I believe that there is a separation of church and state for a reason. I do believe in God and the New Testament; the "laws" against homosexuality, eating shellfish, eating or touching pork, a married woman discovered not to be a virgin is put to death, as well as disobediant children; wearing blended fibers (think polyester), etc. etc. were in the Old Testament - when Jesus was crucified, the old "laws" were thrown out. It is not up to us to judge others - that's God's job - it is up to use to love one another - that's all. A lot of the so-called Christians on this blog aren't full of love, they're full of hate, which is an abombination to God and they will have to answer for it on Judgment day just as we all will for our own sins. God also tells us to obey man's law; discrimnating against anyone for any reason is just plain wrong. By the way - just in case you were wondering, I'm a 52 year old straight white woman who tries to do my best to live as Jesus would want me to - so I always ask myself, "What would Jesus do?" Sinner or not (and that's not up to me or to you or to anyone else but God) he would love that person and ACCEPT them - so that's what I try to do. Even you bigots!

On my honor, I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

morally straight.

Prove to me it's immoral.

On my honor, I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I believe in homosexuals and I know homosexuals who are more morally straight than the majority of Christians. Morality is not universal.

A lot of angry fems out there!.....Whether your Christian,Jew,Buddha,Hindu,Muslim,agnostic,atheist,Darwinist etc...for you freaks lets take morality out of it, so you can understand.Is it "NATURAL" of course not and even your twisted logic can't explain that.If you violent fems were in charge and outlawed HETEROSEXUALS and made a law that all men be with men and all women be with women could humanity survive???Even if you were born that way, It doesn't mean you have to act that way,get over it you selfish depressed deviants!

Is it "NATURAL"

Yes, it is. It exists in nature without human interference. It is documented in 1500+ species of animal/insect.

Also reported for your numerous personal attack attempts.

As a former Republican, the idea of banning Republicans from public office sounds like a very rational policy.

The lie of WMD's in Iraq in 2003 would never have been tolerated if G. W. Bush had been a Democrat. Neither would the rip-off of the US economy by the banks via the end of the Glass-Steagle act. The Democrats who voted to go to war against Iraq in 2003 did so only because they believed the Republican (and Faux News) lies.

@electronicottage - YES smart post - time to leave behind our need for an invisible man in the sky to blame for poor crops and lightning.

I heard that the feisty readhead was banned. Just sayin'.

Mike VL- I hope that on the day that that invisible supernatural man reappears to separate the wheat from the tares and burn the tares, that I get a glimpse of the "oops" moment that you and so many like you experience. Take a look around you my friend, this incredible universe didn't just come together by accident, and it didn't just evolve without some planning and order. The glory of God is intelligence, so God posseses all of the understanding of that science that you and so many would try to use to prove that he doesn't exist. We are and must be accountable for our beliefs, decisions and our actions.

mikerowe: and if you believe we are accountable for our beliefs, decisions and actions than perhaps you might believe that hatred and homophobia is hardly the stuff of the "glory of God".

AP, I'll go out on a limb here and say mikerowe is Christian. According to the Bible, God finds homosexuality to be wrong. Pointing it out is not homophobia and hatred. Calling it immoral is not homophobia or hatred. We are called to point out sin so as to save the sinner.

Now, if anyone is being rude or violent towards homosexuals, I'm totally for locking them up. That is the wrong way of going about things.

Hey Ap and ccmnxc (?). So much for freedom. We can't even have a boys and girls club without the new world politically correct agenda and lifestyle being forced upon everyone! And keep your catchphrases like 'homophobe' and 'discriminatoty' and shove them up your overused a**. There, no bible quoting here<

Why do LGBT groups always join an organization they disagree with, and then feel the need to change that organization. Be it the Church, college, BSA, or what have you. Don't like it, start your own.

And another thing, if someone disagrees with you. That's one thing. But to make fun of them, their religion, their beliefs. Is wrong.

Isn't that what you are supposed to be??????? Open minded. Respectful of other people idea's, belief's, wanting to be just left alone?

All I see from some of you on here, is wanting your gay pride acknowledged, and respected. While at the same time you make fun of and ridicule those that disagree with you.

They have a term for someone like that, it's call a Hypocrite.

Respect, Like trust. Is earned. Some of you on here fail miserably.

And if I believe in God. That should make no difference in how you address me.

Unless you wish to degrade me.

On that you would be stooping down to a level of again, being a hypocrite.

Remember, You want to be accepted by other people, that means not shoving yourself upon them. But asking to be treated with the same respect that you yourselves would expect. Is that asking too much?

Your preference doesn't bother me, but some on here shove. That, I don't like.(I tend to shove back).

Peace. And may God have mercy on all of us. We all fall short, each and everyone of us. God Bless.

Unbelievable, no you are right pointing that out is not any of those things, they are your opinion. When it turns into bigotry and hatred is when you say stuff like "allowing Gays to do/have will destroy society", and a poison well fallacy for that matter. When you use your own personal opinions to create laws that are set up to discriminate against Gays, that bigotry and hatred.

It seems too hard for religious people to understand that your beliefs based of your religion are your personal opinion. Just because it is your opinion does not make it law nor correct. As a matter of fact it cannot translate to law, period. The majority does not get to decide the civil laws and rights of the people of this country, only the Supreme Court has that power. Currently these anti-Gay laws are being passed despite the fact that marriage is a Constitutional civil right under the 14th Amendment. This is why all of these laws in Colorado, West Virgina and else where are going to be found unconstitutional when/if they reach the SCOTUS.

I am personally not Gay but I do think they deserve to have the ability to do all of the things that Heterosexuals do because I believe in an America where everyone regardless of sex, race, or sexual preference is equal under the law. I believe in an America where religion does not get to decide who is equal and who is not. I believe in an America were everyone gets that same rights, the same shot at success, the same chance to succeed, and the same resources.

Do I really like a lot of the Christians on this board? No, but I do not think that they should be silenced. It is as much their right to post here as it is mine and all I can do is keep stating my opinion without trying to get them banned or in some otherway closed out of this system. This is what a lot of you Anti-Gay people need to learn, it is alright to have an opinion but that opinion, no matter if it is the majority opinion or not, cannot be used to enact a rule or law against those that you personally hate.

And yes you do hate Gays; to hate the sin is to hate the sinner. You cannot hate a sin without also hating the origin of that sin. I have seen that line, hate the sin not the sinner, more times then I care to even try to count. It is a lame personal excuse to tell yourself that you do not hate them, it is also a lie because of the reasons in the first sentence of this paragraph.

If you truly hated the sin and not the place that sin comes from then you would not be advocating for beating down a minority, of repressing a minority. You would vocally admonish it but it would go no further then that.

mikerowe organism, are you a re-reg of MikeRowe? I ask because of the similar name.

Anyway on to your post. So you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists? Let's see that proof then.

Though so. There is no proof that God exists nor does not exist. The reason you believe that he does is because you have put blind faith into your religion and have trusted that what the Bible and the preachers say is true.

This is the first mistake of many religious people. Belief in God and belief in the Bible are two different things. You do not need to have religion to have faith. Faith is a illusionary concept and what I mean by that is that faith is not based on truth it is based on assumptions. You can only assume that the Bible tells the whole truth and nothing bu the truth, there is no way to prove that is is actually true. You can only assume that God exists because there is no proof that he does.

Most religions are based on assumptions and not facts. When you have something that people will believe in without the need for actual truth you have a very powerful weapon at your disposal. How do you personally know that the Vatican is not manipulating you (if you are Catholic) or that your Church is not manipulating you? Can you prove that they are not?

Religion is like politics. There are promises made but almost never are they ever true. The basic precept of Heaven is that if you lead a virtuous life that you will be rewarded after you die. No one can verify this claim, you just have to assume it to be true. Jesus was a real person but there is no way to verify that he was capable of the miracles the Bible said he did.

The Bible is full of assumptions, statements, and opinions which no one can claim to verify and those that can do so are lying. So why put your faith into something that could be a complete falsehood? Why put trust into something that you have no clue about the validity of? If a strange came up to you and said that God sent him to deliver a message would you believe that person? If he told you that God wanted you to go somewhere with them would you get into their car?

If you put blind faith in the fact that God does exist you would have to because you would, by logical process, have to assume that this person really was a messenger for God. He has as much validity to his words as the Pope or any priest does in relation to what God's will is. The Pope is also just a man. He wields enormous power because he can dictate the beliefs of over a billion people but he is still just a mortal man.

It is not Man's place to judge, it says that in the Bible itself and so true Christians keep their thoughts to themselves or vocalize their dislike but they do not act on their opinions to restrict the free will of others. Because they know they are not to judge anyone lest they commit a sin themselves.

Christians believe what they want because they like to believe those things. People join groups because they like the groups. For instance, I joined the softball team because I like softball and all that go with the game. I would not thry to change the rules of the game so that I enjoy it more. If I dont like it for some reason, I can go do something else. It is not right for the gay rights community to try and force their opinion onto groups like the BSA who have had the same traditions since they were formed.

Geowil dont people have a "Blind faith" whan it comes to evolution as well? It is not PROVEN. It is an opinion as well. Scientist cannot PROVE where we came from. Right?

@MikeRowe,

I only have one piece or religious advice for other people: Make sure you worship a God that you wouldn't mind spending an eternity with. A capricious silly god would not be a good choice. A god that is not quite as smart as you are --- one that you have to notify of things by public prayer --- would not be a good choice.

Christians have what I call an 87% God. This is a god that is not quite as smart as Pat Robertson and is definitely quite lazy. A real underperformer at best. When all the cards were on the table he only worked for six days and then he took a day off to admite his work. Imagine what a betterwould this would be if he had given 100% and worked that extra day. No war, no childhood disease, no plagues, no religious warfare, no cultural hatred and women's plumbing and termostats that actually worked! Or imagine for a moment if we had had a god that gave 110% and really went above and beyond --- there would be no need for a future heaven. But instead Christians, starting in the early to mid-1800's, adopted a god that was silly, inconsistent, cruel, and decidedly stupid. If there is a God, I would be certain that he is grossly insulted by Christianity.

Geowil dont people have a "Blind faith" whan it comes to evolution as well? It is not PROVEN. It is an opinion as well. Scientist cannot PROVE where we came from. Right?

Evolution for all intents and purposes is proven, and is often applied (applied meaning that evolution is used in science to meet desired results, such as vaccinations, genetic engineering, hybridization, etc). Evolution is not an opinion, it's a reality with a scientific theory backing it up.... the entire science of biology is BASED on evolution theory, and whole schools of science and technology are entirely dependent upon it. Your ignorant statement is like saying that "electricity is just an opinion, it's not proven'....

The theory of evolution explains the hows and the whys of evolution. Much like the gravitational theory tries to explain the hows and whys of gravity, or heliocentric theory tries to explain the hows and whys of the earth orbitting the sun. Those theories are all applied as well for a variety of predictive uses (like sending men to the moon) and has proven themselves to be accurate and reliable (but still being tested, as all scientific theories are tested)

As far as "where life came from" that is not addressed in the theory of evolution. Evolution deals with the process of speciation - not with the origin of life.

@Shuklack

Evolution has not been proven a fact.

There is no evidence for evolution in the fossil record of the past. Evolutionists do not have one real or proven example of evolution beteween any two species in the entire fossil record, ot one! Professor Louis T. More, a vocal evolutionist staes, "the more one studies paleontology (the fossil record), the more certain one becoes that evolution is based on faith alone." (The Dogma of Evoluton, p. 160)

Also, "the known fossil record fails to document a single exampl of...evolution.." (Evolutionist Steven M. Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, p. 39)

There is no evidence for Evoluton in the present. There is not one example of real evolution in all of human history.

Evolutionists appeal to the idea that evolution is too slow and gradual to be observed. However, if thre is not evidence for evolution in the fossil record and no evolution being observed today, on may freely choose to believe eolution by faith, but he should not try to call it science, which deals entirely with what can be observed.

Evolutonists still have no working theory of how evolution actually takes place:

a) The theory of the passing on of acquired characteristics or Lamarkism was disoproven by Gregor Mendel's genetic studies in the 1850s and 60s.

b) Darwin's Natural Selection indeed proposed a theory of the Suervival of the Species, but it never proposed any mechanism for the Arrival of the Species.

c) Genetics likewise discredited the theory of Sexual Drift. Mutations have been shown to be regressive, not progressive. Neo-Darwinism only combines tow earlier discredited theories. punctuated Equ9ilbrium only claims that evoluion happened rapidly; it proposes no real theory of how it happened.

d) Evolutionary scientist thus do not even hae a working theory of how evolution could have taen place.

Lastly, Evolutionists have no explanaton of the Origin of Life. The spontaneous Generation of life from no-life is condisered absolutely impossible by science and yet it is also considered to be where all life originated. Evolutionists attempt to resove this paradow by invoking unknown processes in unkown conditions. They can only believe this by faith, therefore it can not be taught as science.

I could go on and on with more scientific facts that disprove evolution and proves that you have to believe in it just as you would have to believe in God, but my post is probably too long now that people won't read it all anyways

KS - you are so incredibly misinformed, and wrong, and downright ignorant that I'm not sure where to begin. I won't waste much time on you, because your reply indicates that you do not even comprehend the basics of evolution theory, much less are capable of arguing against it.



Evolution has not been proven a fact.

It's a more robustly understood and complete theory than gravitational theory. Do you deny gravity?

There is no evidence for evolution in the fossil record of the past.

What? The fossil record IS the evidence. There is not a single fossil that disputes evolution theory, quite the contrary - the have only proven to support it.

Evolutionists do not have one real or proven example of evolution beteween any two species in the entire fossil record, ot one!

What are you talking about? Do you even know what you are asking? This makes no sense. All fossils are transitional species because all species are in transition.

"the known fossil record fails to document a single exampl of...evolution

Again, wtf? This is a nonsense argument from a person who doesn't seem to even understand what evolution is..... what do you mean a 'fossil example of evolution' ? Would homo erectus count?

Evolutonists still have no working theory of how evolution actually takes place

Lol what - there are volumes upon volumes regarding the working theory of how evolution actually takes place... your ignorance does not suffice as proof of anything.

The theory of the passing on of acquired characteristics or Lamarkism was disoproven by Gregor Mendel's genetic studies in the 1850s and 60s.

Are you seriously citing someone from the mid 19th century regarding modern genetics? You know, genetic science has moved well beyond the 19th Century, right? And that pretty much every modern geneticist utilizes evolution theory on a regular basis?

Lastly, Evolutionists have no explanaton of the Origin of Life

Strawman - evolution makes no attempt to explain the origin of life, so it's irrelevant as a 'talking point' regarding your disbelief of evolution.

could go on and on with more scientific facts that disprove evolution

Then please do, because you've provided none so far. Where did you copy and paste this from, by the way? The Discovery Institute? You should provide the source.

Genetics likewise discredited the theory of Sexual Drift. Mutations have been shown to be regressive, not progressive. Neo-Darwinism only combines tow earlier discredited theories. punctuated Equ9ilbrium only claims that evoluion happened rapidly; it proposes no real theory of how it happened.

Bunch of nonsense that tries to sound scientific and makes unsupported claims that really are seem to be just pulled out of thin air.

There is no evidence for Evoluton in the present. There is not one example of real evolution in all of human history.

Human history (homo sapiens) only have fossil records going back to about 0.2 million years. Not a very long time. Remember, evolution is a gradual process - it's not like a species just ups and changes in one generation. Is that the sort of example you are looking for? Because you won't find one like that because that is not how evolution works, and it betrays your lack of understanding on the subject (or your willful ignorance) - I'm not sure which.

As far as examples of evolution: Try the fish in Lake Victoria, or Lenski's project with e. coli - if you want examples of evolution in action.

First off, I cited 2 different sources, which you convienently chose to ignore. Secondly quoted an evolutionist that specifically said you have to have faith to believe in evolution which is what you were arguing against.

The point of the fossil record is that if scientists are tying to use the fossil record to prove evolution, where is the fossils of the in between (transitional portion of the species) there is none, becuase what we have in the fossil record are simply two different species, not an evolution of one to another.

Also on the subject of accepting evoltion by faith rather than science, I will quote some more with references:

1) Professor D.M.S. Watson, a famous evolutionist, made the remarkable observation that evolution itself is a theory universally accepted, "not because it has been observed to occur or can be proved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternatie - special creation - is clearly incredible." (Why I believe, pp. 50-52)

2) A famous British evolutionist, Sir Arthur Keith, is just as famnk in his admission. he states, "Evolution is Unproved and Unprovable. We believe it because hte only altenative is special creation which is unthinkable."

3) Robert T. Clark and James D. bales woret an interesting and heavily documented book entitled Why Scientists Accept Evolution. It contains numerous letters written by Darwin, huxley, Spencer, and other early evolutionists. it points out that these men indicatd in their letters, by their own admission, that because of their hostility toward God and their bias against the supermatural, they jumped at the doctrine of evoluton.

4) Sir Julian Huxley, one of the world's leading evolutinists, head of UNESCO, desendent of Thomas Huxley, Darwin's bulldog - said on a talk show, "I supposed the reason we leaped at The Origin of the Species was because the idea of God interfered with our sexual mores."

There is also the Second Law of Thermodynamics (which is one of the best proven of all of the laws of all science) tells us that any system left to itself move downhill;

a) From Order to disorder.

b) From Complexity to Randomness

The theory of evolution violates this Scientific Law by claiming that the universe and ofe have moved uphill from disorder and randomness to order and complexity.

There is also a former evolutionist, Sir Fred Hoyle, that calculated the odds of life forming on Earth as being only 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power (that is one followed by 40,000 zeros).

a) by contrast, there are less than 10 to the 78th power of atoms in the entire universe!

b) He further calculated the odds of live forming by chance even if every star had a planet capable of supporting life.

c) His conclusion was that life could never have formed on Earth or on any other planet. Faced with the facts, he abandoned his atheism and accepted that life cold only come from a Creator.

Evolutionists have no real evidence from Geology. all of the best evidnce indicates that the strat or layers of the so-called geologic column were laid down rapidly by a global flood, not gradually over millions of years.

a) The geoloic Column is often pictured in textbooks and is called by may, the best evidence of evolution.

b) The trade secret of Geology is that the Geologic Column exitsts onlly in theory. it exists no where in the real world. Diffeerent layers are found in different parts of the world and stacked in a theoretical column.

c) The layers are determined and dated by the fossils found in them which are in turn dated by the layers in which they are found (circular reasoning at its worst). All of the strata and fossils are actually dated by the assumption that Evolution is true and the assumed order and time of the evolutio of the creatures found in the fossil record.

d) Evolutionist conveniently ignore th fact that creatures from the top to the bottom of their evolutionary time table have been found in the same strata, indicaing that trilobits, dinosaurs,a nd man all lived simultaneously.

e) Many question whether the Flood could have produced the hlundred of fee t of geological layers nad stratawe find world wide.

1) Tghese questions actually arise from our lack of knowledge concernig both the power and rsults of water movemets on the scale of the golbal flood.

2) Hydrology experst rather than geologists should be our authorities in this field.

3) These experts on the power and products of massive water movements tell us that hlundreeds of feet of layered strata is exactly what would be expected after a global Flood.

First off, I cited 2 different sources, which you convienently chose to ignore.

Ignored? No. Dismissed? Yes. Try citing a source that's from this century, I might even accept one from the second half of last century. Do you think science stopped in 1950 and no progress has been made since?

there is none, becuase what we have in the fossil record are simply two different species, not an evolution of one to another

Sigh.... Please, try to get your info from somewhere other than the Discovery Institute.

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, I hope you realize. You got this totally fubar'd idea of what evolution theory is, so much so that I can totally understand why you don't accept it.... I wouldn't accept your totally whacked out version of evolution either.

Evolutionist conveniently ignore th fact that creatures from the top to the bottom of their evolutionary time table have been found in the same strata, indicaing that trilobits, dinosaurs,a nd man all lived simultaneously.

Nonsense. Source please.

Evolutionists have no real evidence from Geology. all of the best evidnce indicates that the strat or layers of the so-called geologic column were laid down rapidly by a global flood, not gradually over millions of years.

Flooder as well? Hahahahahha omfg.... ok.... this obviously will not go anywhere. Move that goalpoast more, please.

As for the rest of your points - they've been debunked over and over and over again. I have an inkling that they've been debunked to your face a number of times as well.

lolololol!

A question for consideration and discussion:

Would forcing BSA to change it's basic policy after 100+yrs in order to "avoid discrimination" be tantamount to reverse discrimination?

BSA has a well established policy; if you are unable to abide by BSA rules, regulations and policy, find another organization to align with, don't try to take over what others have worked to establish for over a century.

Same argument for religious beliefs. BSA does not dictate which religion you must follow, but to be a member you MUST be reverent; if you aren't or can not be, DON'T JOIN! Find another organization to affiliate with.

If you can not be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly curteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BECOME A BOY SCOUT. Pretty simple!

Yeaaa!! Not as stupid as you think. How right you are

Would forcing BSA to change it's basic policy after 100+yrs in order to "avoid discrimination" be tantamount to reverse discrimination?

It IS a stupid question, because there is no such thing as "reverse" discrimination -- discrimination is discrimination, period.

If you can not be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly curteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BECOME A BOY SCOUT.

And what do any of those things have to do with homosexuality? Homosexuals can be -- and are -- all of those things, too; they are not dependent upon one's sexual orientation. (BTW, the word is "courteous," not "curteous".)

You are (intentionally?) missing the point Erin.

Homosexuals can be -- and are -- all of those things, too

Fine and dandy. Now abide by the rest of the BSA rules, regulations, and policies or go somewhere else. If you can NOT be "all of those things, too" - join some other organization that doesn't require them.

Get It??????

Now abide by the rest of the BSA rules, regulations, and policies or go somewhere else.

So if I want to "abide by the rest of the BSA rules, regulations, and policies," I would also have to harbor pedophiles, because that's exactly what BSA has done -- and covered up their actions.

Get it???????

how can a homosexual be reverant to God, and participant in an action that God finds detestable. That is the true problem here.

how can a homosexual be reverant to God, and participant in an action that God finds detestable. That is the true problem here.

Numerous churches and beliefs do not believe that homosexuality is a sin or immoral. The BSA Oath does not specify which god you are being reverent to.

ks1971... Really? God personally told you that? That's odd. The last time I spoke with her (she's black, you know) she never mentioned that to me. It sounds, to me, like you have "true problems" of your own to deal with. "Methinks thou doth protest too much."

she never mentioned that to me.

Did she by chance tell you to read the book of Leviticus, or did she tell you to read the Quran instead? Maybe she instructed you to read the Book of Mormon... which is it Sam, 'cause My God told me that homosexuality IS considered an abomination in His view.

I would also have to harbor pedophiles, because that's exactly what BSA has done -- and covered up their actions.

Get it???????

No I don't "Get it" Erin... where on earth did you come up with such non-sense?

I sense you are ranting about something, but I am in the dark as to what, exactly, it is bothering you. Can you please clarify? What I have read from you makes no sense.

I did not say that God told me that personally, but his WORD, the wholly Bible tells us all that! Try reading it someday!!!

And How DARE YOU INSINUATE that God is FEMALE, God the Father tells us that HE is Male!

But Tim, isn't that what this is about. Asking to see if the organization is willing to make a change. They are not saying that it is a must, but they are asking for a review and the leadership is considering it. With each successive generation, socially acceptable behavior changes and new mores take their place. Seeing an organization as old and trusted as the BSA look inward and ask hard questions is a good sign. Now perhaps they will come back and say they do not want to accept people of a certain lifestyle and that would be fine too. But to suggest that because something has been done in one particular way for a long time means it shouldn't change is short-sighted. After all, some of the greatest ideas came about by having people ask why are things this way and is there any way we can do it differently. It works for business, it works for government, it works for individuals, because it not only strengthens resolve when you come to the conclusion we were right, but it also, hopefully, allows us to see our flaws when we are wrong.

Many times that private organization meets at public property, like schools, park districts and libraries. They feel that they absolutely must approve and allow all requests from the scouts to meet on their property. I had a lesbian neighbor once, for ten years. My wife did to switch sides and my daughter has been and is straight. Gay is not communicable. Most churches would be surprised exactly how many "sickos" are in the pews if they actually knew .

Do you also support the right of private golf courses to exclude blacks or women?

This is NOT a private organization. It is a Congressionally-chartered organization --- a much different thing.

Ray makes a good point but I'd like to point out that this was submitted by members under the rules of the organization. It may have outside pressure but there isn't going to be a law by the USA saying YOU MUST ACCEPT GAYS. It is a lot of members of THAT ORGANIZATION changing the rules of THEIR ORGANIZATION.

I am an Eagle Scout and I support this!

You're not asking Loki, because you already have asked and they said no! So really, you are using pressure to exact the change that YOU want.

LoK1

"Now perhaps they will come back and say they do not want to accept people of a certain lifestyle and that would be fine too."

Seriously, you don't really believe that statement do you?

This hypocrasy and bigotry will fall...whether it falls now, or when the old bigots die out, it is inevitable...

Just as it is inevitable women will play at Augusta.

I'm predicting the sky will not fall.

Chris - first off your statement about the congressional charter and not being a private organization is totally incorrect. A congressional charter doesn't really mean anything, mostly symbolic, and certainly doesn't mean that congress has any say in the organization (THANK GOD) or that by some means this puts the organization into the public realm where they are subject to laws that would not allow this discrimination to happen.

With that being said I do agree that the concept behind not allowing gays in scouts is flawed and should not continue. However, I also believe in the organizations right to set their own rules and I also respect that. I hope too that the scouts will change but I want them to do it on their own accord, not be pressured into it or bullied by special interest groups. Its going to happen before long but I will say there is the issue with the main sponsors of the scouts which are Church's so one must understand that (lose that and you may just lose scouting and then what does that do for anyone?).

We can't continue to allow special interest groups to continue going around and bulling others into conforming to their beliefs. In this case areas like allowing gays to be married is perfectly in the realm of where these groups should be fighting for a change, one that should happen. However, a private organization like the Boy Scouts is not is not of those areas, regardless of how wrong their stance is. If gays want an organization that accepts gays openly, create one. In fact make it gay only. Totally within their rights.

Like it or not those are my thoughts and we have to be careful to respect everyone's rights and this black mark aside the scouts are an amazing organization that teaches kids great values, and even though they don't let openly gay people in they don't teach kids to discriminate or anything like that, its known and is there but mostly ignored as sexual orientation is not focused on nor should it be as that is not the point of scouting. I can attest to this first hand because I was apart of Scouts (call me biased if you want). I was(am) an Eagle Scout as well, with four palms and a Vigil member of the Order of the Arrow (not tooting my horn but like a four star general for those who aren't familiar) and I can tell you for the most part troops are rather autonomous from the national level, so it's usually not a big deal, and as I said their is certainly no gay bashing or anything like that going on and outside of the leaders I can tell you there were at least a few kids that I wager to guess have come out or were questioning their sexual orientation while in scouts.

So bottom line, again I think the policy is wrong but we must also respect the rights and views of others and organizations like this and try to bully or force them to change. That is wrong and I'd say much worse than not allowing gays in because otherwise the scouts have not preached against gays and have mostly done nothing but good for alot of people and kids.

It is time

Having been around scouting for almost all of my childhood, I don't think it would be bad for gay youth to be in the Scouts but I think it would be exceptionally challenging for the leaders to deal with. Boys become sexually aware of themselves and often active during their youth. It can be very confusing for both heterosexual and homosexual boys. I think a big issue is how can Scout leaders deal with that issue because it will come up.

The interesting thing to me is this young man from Iowa standing up for what he thinks is right is VERY much what the Boy Scouts teach. I doubt BSA will budge, but it is interesting that they are considering the petition.

@Tim Baker, @It is time

The BSA and GSA are NOT private organizations. They, like major league baseball, are Congressionally-chartered and are answerable to Congress for their actions. And, like used to be said about baseball before all the doping and drugs started, Congressionally-chartered organizations are intended to be held to a higher, more Coinstitutional standard than even Congress itself.

Major league baseball tried to use the "symbolic" argument in testimony before Congress on doing and drugs and it was rejected. Now a bunch of well-known sports figures have had their achievements trashed and their careers ruined and the reputation of baseball sullied forever because they did not follow their Congressional charter.

Congressionally-chartered organizations are intended to be held to a higher, more Coinstitutional standard than even Congress itself.

I do not know where this comes from Chris, and you haven't supplied any authority for the such a statement.

What I DO know is this:

The first and foremost consideration of the Boy Scouts of America is the safety, protection and well being of it's members. Maybe allowing homosexuals to be leaders and take the boys over-night camping, swimming, etc. would have no effect; but it could place some boy in danger in some circumstances. Therefore, it should be avoided.

Now I have read the arguements that having gays as Scout leaders would make no difference at all, and in most cases I believe that to be correct; however, in that 1 case in a thousand where a boy is seduced or raped, or even subjected to sexual misconduct MANDATES THAT B.S.A. KEEP IT'S POLICY as is. Even the potential must be avoided if at all possible.

If it wasn't important or didn't have a purpose, it wouldn't be a rule to begin with.

Extreme emphasis upon youth protection is an important part of the Boy Scouts of America, and must remain so.

Love that posting a peaceful non hate filled post gets me a one way ticket to the racist bad guy group. But My point was poved that them who want the most are those who want to deny what they want. The Boy Scouts is the thing to happen in my life. Put me up with all the Eagle who took flight an soared. It taught me so much. All that I am is all that I could ever want to be. If being a scout makes me this racist evil baby eater then so be it. The God that I love and respect is with in me. I now I have a place in Heaven. Am I human? fersure. I respect everyone. I believe in the Scout Oath and Law and there ever lasting value. I am saddened by all of the twisting of the His Words that I see here but He told us that this would come. Not surprising. God Bless those who persecute me for my words and may only you punish me for my misdeeds. For You are The Way, The Truth, and The Light. No one shall go to the Father but through the Son. God Bless You all, my brother and sisters in Christ.

Chris - Let me say this, I respect your posts as usually you seem pretty moderate, intelligent, and not stuck in one of the outer rings like some of the nuts on here tend to be. But I posted specifically to what you said because I can't find anything where that actually means anything other than something symbolic. More or less saying what that group does is in line with something that is benefiting to the public and is more like an endorsement (non financial) than anything. MLB brokes serious rules in the organization which brought into question the charter, yes, but more over a public impact and if there were other real laws that may have been violated. So I'd say that was a much more extreme issue that happened to call for those hearings, well that and I think the dummies in DC didn't have anything better to do and distracting the public from their failings in priority #1.

But I do also agree that because of that charter that is more a less a requirment that the scouts should be on higher standards and moral grounds than others (congress and high standards in same sentence..hahaha). But I still maintain they are a private organization none the less.

Again all this aside, I don't think anyone can argue that as a whole and thruout its history, the scouts (BSA) have done great things and continue to do so. And for the most part this whole argument is dealing really with the adults not the kids themselves (the ones that are the key part and make up the scouts) or the actual mission of the Boy Scouts. My biggest worry is the kids are going to be the ones who suffer the most. Again don't support the stance, and I want to see the scouts change this on their own not be forced, but I have to say attacking the scouts when there are so many others that take a much, much, more venomous and openly negative stance against gays just seems a little mis-sighted and will/is drawing hatred towards them that is completely unjustified.

Yea, but she isn't swallowing oxy by the handfull like the MR. Tub of lard in Florida.

You're just jealous because she is a better man than you are. I see right through your insecurities,having to tear someone else down to feel better about your own pathetic self. Go sell your wares somewhere else you hack!

Question:

Why would you even want to join an organization that doesn't want you and is diametrically opposed to your basic lifestyle?

Is is a matter of attempting to control someone else? Of attempting to legislate morality?

BSA is not saying you can not live the lifestyle you choose... they are only saying that these are our rules, regulations and requirements; if you want to be a part of our organization you must abide by them. Otherwise, join another organization = we are not for you.

I never knew loving other people was destructive... @!$%# I've been doing things wrong all my life?!

I'm not gay BTW, I just think your being completely and utterly ridiculous.

@ Walter - dumb comment - I never had to "decide" to like girls. What makes you think any boy could be convinced to like other boys? Can you be convinced to like other dudes? Of course not.

Yes Mike VL, I've worked in a position where I've seen the effects of boys or men convincing boys to like other boys, and it wreaks havoc with them for years. Especially without some counseling and guidance. Some even become suicidal. Don't be so sure.

I think Walter makes a very valid point!

Man these comments took a turn, I thought Walter was talking about taking your kids to church

They are the "way God made them"...straight/gay/lesbian/transgender alike. Unfortunately, some folks "cherry pick" the Bible -- hey, not "the Bible" but "The Old Testament"--to find reasons to exclude non-straight people from participating in a great organization.

God also made sinners, prostitutes, pedophiles, murderers, criminals, and thieves. No, I don't believe He messed up. I just think that the tendencies people have shouldn't be given free reign over their actions. Also there are references in the New Testament against homosexuality. Paul wrote about it. Even Jesus, though he didn't directly say homosexuality is wrong, said how men and women were created for each other, would become one through marriage and creating life, and should never be separated.

CCMNXC: It is a fact that the gay community refuses to recognize. In the same way, the gay community "cherry picks" the bible into what they want to hear.

It doesn't convince anyone else but themselves. And let us not forget, that all other religions feel the same way as we do.

You really would have to be void of any God for thinking a gay lifestyle is normal.

By the way, doesn't the Boy Scouts have religious badges they could earn as well? How will that fit into the gay lifestyle? Or will they suddenly have to get rid of that in order to not discriminate against any gay scouts? Or perhaps, gays will say its okay to accept it, thereby warping the boys sense of what God expects?

Kstate, your argument doesn't hold any water. Firstly, I would also be opposed to men leaders bringing girls into the woods for sleepovers. That's why all the dens I know are women leaders. Secondly, you talk about kids 'that age' not knowing what gay is. What age is that? Scouts goes on through and past puberty. And nowadays with homosexuality being shoved down everyone's throats, it appears Everywhere, and kids today know what it is.

When are we going to get it that God didn't make you that way or nature made you that way. You chose to be that way. Life is all about choices. Good or Bad you made them.

Unhappy, which religions? The only three I know of that are against homosexuality are Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Most other religions actually have some homosexual major deities (like Hinduism, I believe that Shiva during one of his reincarnations loved another male deity. Hinduism itself claims that Homosexualism is a natural act of expression the same as Heterosexualism) in them or do not teach morals but instead philosophical lessons.

3 Huge religions Geowil.

Openly gay or lesbian individuals are comfortable enough with their own sexuality and preference that they are far less likely to be abusing the children they lead. Those who hide behind the shroud of secrecy and denial are the ones we should be worried about, because they are the ones who will worm their way into positions of trust or "friendship". When you look at the demographics of pedophiles, it is almost always those who claim they are not gay and many of them are married. How many times do we hear about clergy, coaches, teachers, child care workers or others in trusted positions being arrested for child sex abuse? On the other hand how often have we heard of openly LGBT individual being arrested or accused of child sex abuse? Personally I have never heard of an incidence of this occurring.

Lauran50 - you don't hear about it because the media doesn't talk about it.

Homosexuals make up approximately 5% of the general population. 3.6% of Catholic Priests were accused of homosexual molestation.

Heterosexuals make up approximately 95% of the general population. 0.4% of Catholic Priests were accused of heterosexual molestation.

Wrong. His grandson was gay, and even attempted to start another version of Boy Scouts that included gay participants.

mike, where do you get your info from ? that's news to me.

Mike McKeon Sr.

Your statement has no facts to back it up. It is just a belief by people who read between the lines and think these things up. He was married to Olave for 29 years, raised 3 children and later took in 3 nieces and raised them. Don't make statements you can't back up with truth.

Baden-Powell was not quite the saint that he is portrayed by the BSA. He took his ideas from someone else and claimed credit for them. He was a facist and admirer of both Hitler and Mussolini who even used the swastiga in boy scout activities in the 30's.

Whether he was a homosexual or not is a matter of debate. It is known that when he married that he was immediately beset by severe and disabling headaches that only stopped when he began "sleeping apart" from his wife in a makeshift bedroom on a balcony. Early discussion of Baden-Powell's sexuality focused on his relationship with his close friend Kenneth McLaren. Tim Jeal's later biography discusses the relationship and finds that there is no conclusive evidence that this friendship was physical. Jeal then examines Baden-Powell's views on women, his appreciation of the male form, his military relationships, and his marriage, concluding that Baden-Powell might have been a repressed homosexual. Jeal's conclusion is shared by some biographers and disputed by others.

But Baden-Powell did bring to scouting a real hatred of homosexuality. I personally would compare it to the legislation sponsored by Congressmen Craig and Foley which emphasized anti-gay strictures. This sort of violently anti-gay rhetoric is, unfortunately, characteristic of repressed homosexuals.

Anyone can be a pedophile though gay or not.

Most pedo's are married and have children. Are they gay?

I was in scouts as well and had a wonderful time participating. I didn't know I was gay at the time I joined Weblos, I was too young. Scouting didn't make me gay. I am sorry that you had a bad experience though.

Clearly if they like young boys, they are at least bi-sexual.

Not stating any particular opinion on this article, just pointing that out.

Even if the scout leaders were bisexual, that doesn't make it okay.

And since the LGBT community claims that as one of their own, the problem should lie with them.

kj-3627676

Clearly if they like young boys, they are at least bi-sexual.

Not stating any particular opinion on this article, just pointing that out.

I have read a study that the group least likely to molest children are out gay men. In terms of sexual preference the difference between a MAN and a prepubescent BOY is massive. Take it from the gay man who was an eagle scout: Pedophilia is just as disgusting to me as it is to you. Also trust me: NO ONE wants to look at each other naked at camp-outs! The usual system (for us) was changing in your sleeping bag.

A lot of the people here are posting in defense of the BSA because they are a private institution. There's nothing in the article to suggest that this is anything other than an INTERNAL matter brought up by an EAGLE SCOUT on behalf of one of his parents.

Homosexuals make up approximately 5% of the general population. 3.6% of Catholic Priests were accused of homosexual molestation.

Heterosexuals make up approximately 95% of the general population. 0.4% of Catholic Priests were accused of heterosexual molestation.

Any molestation is unacceptable, but the statistics show a clear correlation between homosexuals and molestation. Who, in their right mind, would allow a homosexual of same gender to go camping with their child?

Any molestation is unacceptable, but the statistics show a clear correlation between homosexuals and molestation. Who, in their right mind, would allow a homosexual of same gender to go camping with their child?

Your statistics are fundamentally flawed. Rape and molestation are most often caused by a desire for power, which does not care for gender. What's more, most of those molested held some sort of position in the churches that permitted the priests regular access to them. Until very recently, these positions had been deigned to be solely for boys.

This is a twist on the truth, what you have posted.

Rape and molestation are most often caused by a desire for power, which does not care for gender.

Why do you believe this? You are claiming that people who want power molest children? Show some statistics or something for this absurd belief.

What's more, most of those molested held some sort of position in the churches that permitted the priests regular access to them.

Yes, this is why gay scout leaders is a bad idea.

Everyone, approximately 90% of all pedophiles/child molesters are heterosexual, married men, NOT homosexuals. Pedophiles and child molesters are attracted to the AGE, not the gender. Furthermore, a large part of their "attraction" is the power they feel they have over young people -- which is what allswell is referring to.

I have presented very real and very verifiable statistics. The problem of pedophilia was studied in depth in the case of the Catholic Church. Male victims, who traditionally were embarrassed to come forward, gave their stories openly as victims (of both genders) were sought out by the prosecution. It was once thought that the majority of victims of molestation were female, but that was because females are more likely to report the abuse.

Pedophiles and child molesters are attracted to the AGE, not the gender.

If this were true, there would have been an equal number of male and female victims.

Furthermore, a large part of their "attraction" is the power they feel they have over young people

Why do you believe this?

Pedophilia is a separate sexual orientation. Those who experience attraction to children generally have no interest in adults. Therefore, very few pedophiles are homo- or heterosexual.

Like Erin said, they are attracted to age.

Hambone - What evidence do you base this on? Please link to a study that supports your theory.

Pedophilia is a separate sexual orientation.

This is not strictly true, because of definitions. In order for something to qualify as a sexual orientation, it must relate to an attraction between sexes. Pedophilia's focus on age does not qualify it as such. However, it is true that many pedophiles have more bisexual tendencies in their focus on age, but most will also have a leaning that reveals their true orientation. Most often, this is heterosexual.

Are you just making this stuff up or do you have some sort of evidence?

A common question among heterosexual males when they see a young pretty girl is, "is she legal?" This would imply that they have an attraction to a possibly underage girl but would be unwilling to act on it based upon the legal definition. Those same men don't look to young boys and ask about their "legal status". Obviously this isn't a scientific study but it happens enough to call BS on your theory.

I wish you people would stop bringing blacks, and women, and now Jews into this. You're just trying to get more numbers. It's not the same thing and alot of blacks, women, and Jewish people would take offense to you saying it is!

I am Jewish, straight, and a former boy scout; and I take offense that you would suggest that it is NOT the same. It is EXACTLY the same.

I was born Jewish, and while I could hide who I am and not practice that would be denying my identity. Exactly the same as gays. My people have been persecuted for centuries for who we are. We were sent to the ovens along with homosexuals. How is my situation any different from gays?

Hatred exterminated most of the Jews of Europe. Every Jewish family lost family members (including mine). I have made it a personal point to not treat anyone like that. I have asked myself whether my heterosexuality was a choice in order to make certain I was not displaying any unconscious prejudice; could I choose to be gay? The answer is "no". I cannot choose to be gay, anymore than they can choose to be straight. Therefore I REFUSE to show anyone the same hatred that almost wiped out my people along side many homosexuals.

We are in this together.

_____________

Now, do the Boy Scouts have the right to discriminate? Of course they do. Just as the KKK have the right to parade through the streets. I just hope that the Boy Scouts will change their policies in my lifetime. In the mean time I will not allow my kids to join. I will not support prejudice in any form.

Thank you Brian! "Unbelievable" (good moniker for you, I think): I am a straight white woman, married to a black man with black children, 3 straight and 1 gay and I also take offense also to your assertion that it isn't the same thing - yes it is (and who died and made you an expert in anything but being the white male I assume you are from your posts?) - discriminating against anyone for any reason is wrong! The God I love and believe in (not religion - God), in my humble opinion, would not want me to hate anyone nor discriminate against them. Of course, the BSA is a private organization, and as such, they have a right to not accept who they choose, as those of us who find it discriminatory have a right to not support such an organization. Perhaps gays should start their own organization - however, then wait to hear some of you say, why do they get their own thing? Just like Black Miss America - people didn't want blacks to participate in the Miss America contest, so they started their own, then people got mad about that. I would like to ask you all something, though - religious or not, how do gays getting the same rights as straight people hurt you personally in any way? And all this teaching your children to hate others - what's wrong with you people?

They are normal people like you are not. Your sick in the head.

Did you choose to be straight moron? Can you switch over to gay if you want?

Idiot

Wow, you make a really good point, Steve Scharfe. Really well-considered and wise. Please don't tell me you've spawned any young.

I. Cannot. Stop. Laughing.

A really good point.

When are you all going to get it that Pedophilia and homosexuality are two different things - the majority of pedophiles are straight men.

"Krafft-Ebing mentioned paedophilia erotica in a typology of "psycho-sexual perversion." He wrote that he had only encountered it four times in his career and gave brief descriptions of each case, listing three common traits:

1. The individual is tainted [by heredity] (hereditär belastate)
2. The subject's primary attraction is to children, rather than adults.
3. The acts committed by the subject are typically not intercourse, but rather involve inappropriate touching or manipulating the child into performing an act on the subject.

He mentions several cases of pedophilia among adult women (provided by another physician), and also considered the abuse of boys by homosexual men to be extremely rare. Further clarifying this point, he indicated that cases of adult men who have some medical or neurological disorder and abuse a male child are not true pedophilia, and that in his observation victims of such men tended to be older and pubescent. He also lists "Pseudopaedophilia" as a related condition wherein "individuals who have lost libido for the adult through masturbation and subsequently turn to children for the gratification of their sexual appetite" and claimed this is much more common.^"

I must be the 2% cause im not gay and i would totally let my kids be friends/boy scouts with gay people or straight people.
I think your math is a little off, or based on old times. times are changing more and more people don't care whether people are colored, jewish, straight, or gay. People are people. All your doing is pushing your bigotry values on your kids.
Who if smart will revolt against you anyway.

TMACK-Can u take a spelling course before you post again. Lack of skill is showing yet again. Thanks Genius.

TMacK, ur an idiot! Plain and simple! it's a fact and it's the size of ur IQ. 0!

Homosexuality violates the laws of nature which is a fact the homosexual community can't argue.

Really? Please tell us how homosexuality "violates the laws of nature," especially since it has been documented in approximately 1,500 animal species (besides humans).

The common psychological profile on homosexuals is loaded with emotional as well as mental disorders.

Cite the proof of this.

Homosexuality was considered a mental illness until removed from the list of mental diseases in 1973 due to political pressure on the American Psychiatric Association.

WRONG. It was removed because it was found that there was never ANY evidence to warrant its inclusion in the first place.

Andy, for the record I have a bachelor and graduate degree in two difficult majors. Architecture (engineering) and aerospace engineering (rocket science). I doubt your IQ comes close to reaching that level.

And I have two bachelor's and two master's degrees -- so I doubt your IQ comes close to mine. What's your point? Your IQ may be high, but it is clear that you have never studied sexuality -- and that you cannot perform the simplest research.

Bahska, would you send your 14 year old son on a 2 person campout with a gay, pedophile, registered sex offender? Yea man we gotta love everyone! You have to love your child enough to have the common sense to protect them. Thats all!

I just wanted to say that I was a gay scout growing up. There are LGBT people in all aspects of life, and scouting is one of them. I became an Eagle Scout when I was 15, as well as becoming actively involved in the Order of the Arrow, eventually attaining Brotherhood, but not Vigil since I lived too far away from scout camp to reliably make the events required to obtain that rank. My mother was my Scoutmaster, and she remains the Scoutmaster of that same troop to this very day, over 15 years later. I also served as an Assistant Scoutmaster after I turned 18, and continued on to help many other Boy Scouts attain merit badges and progress through the ranks of Scouting. BSA may or may not change it's policies in the near future, but no matter what happens, people like myself will continue to be actively involved in Scouting and will endeavor to teach Scouts the be compassionate towards others, respectful, and to never tease or bully someone for being different. All lessons that most of us took to heart in kindergarten or preschool. And for the record, if you ask any of my relatives or friends, they would completely define me as "physically strong, mentally awake, AND morally straight." I've never been drunk, never done any type of drugs or smoked, never been pulled over by a police officer, never arrested, and never in trouble with the law or authority whatsoever. I'm 31.

Coach, while you may have a high intellect, I feel that you are lacking common sense. Homosexuality is not a violation of the laws of nature; it is a mutation that develops in many species over time, and often develops as a result of overpopulation. Also, not all gays and lesbians are sexual perverts. Sexual perverts can be found in all sexual orientations: gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or what have you, and they are a small portion of the population of that orientation. Perverts will be perverts regardless of sexual orientation.

Erin, I highly doubt your credentials are what you boast, That being said, please provide proof(not an opinion) to support your "Wrong" diatribe. You being a staunch gay rights advocate, seem to take these comments too personally, lighten up!

MsPiven and ErinNJ--It may not be a 'violation' of nature but it's certainly not natural. If an entire community was gay exactly how many generations would come out of it. Exactly 1. The first generation would die out childless. I guess if I were to tell you how to run your 'private' household and you disagreed with me you'd be 'Rickophobic', huh. It's your home, your rules, but if I felt they were unfair to me somehow I would have the right to have you change your rules, right!

Uh, Rick? Let's look at that concept. Ok, overnight, everyone is gay. OMG there won't be any more children, whatever will we do? Guess we have to just die out. Do you really think that people can only have sex with people they are attracted to? That if there was a need for procreation (not that there really is at this point considering the current world population), it would happen no matter who the participants choose to spend the rest of their time with? They may find it distasteful, even abhorrent, but they would get the job done.