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Subscribe to RSSCary Feldman says it was unpleasant enough to be knocked off his motor scooter at an intersection in Chicago Heights, Ill., by the car behind him. But what added insult to his injuries was the $200 bill that came in the mail a few months later – for the fire truck response.
“It was astounding. I thought I was living in North Korea. I had the audacity to fall on their pavement,” said the 72-year-old retired clinical psychologist, who lives in nearby Matteson, Ill.
Feldman tried unsuccessfully to get Chicago Heights officials to rescind the fee stemming from the June 2010 accident, in which he says the other motorist was deemed at fault and there was never any need for a fire truck to respond along with police and an ambulance. When he couldn’t get the other party’s insurance company to cover the bill, Feldman wound up paying it out of pocket.
“If you’re the victim of somebody else’s negligence, why should you have to pay? It’s crazy to me,” he says.
Citizens and insurance companies cite stories like Feldman’s in their intensifying crusade against so-called “accident response fees,” also known as “crash taxes.” Cash-strapped municipalities and cities across the U.S. started imposing such fees around 2006-07, when the U.S. economy started to falter, to raise money to help fund local police and fire departments.
Some local governments have since done an about-face and voted to rescind the fees, saying it’s given their city a black eye.
The city council in Oceanside, Calif., for example, last year voted to repeal the crash tax it charged to out-of-town drivers who get into car crashes that require emergency help from city paramedics.
"We're talking about a program that hasn't worked, that isn't successful and has hurt us," Councilman Jerry Kern said at the time. "I think for PR (public relations) alone, we should drop this program and tell people we welcome them to this city."
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According to the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies, municipalities in as many as 34 states charge accident response fees or are considering ordinances to allow them. Thirteen states prohibit such fees.
Municipalities often contract with a third-party vendor to collect the fees, which vary widely but are typically a few hundred dollars. Some local governments charge for police response to car crashes, some for fire response. Some target the fees only at out-of-town drivers.
The fees are usually billed to a motorist’s insurance company. In some cases, like Feldman’s, a collection agency winds up trying to collect from the individual.
The NAMIC is among the insurance organizations that vigorously oppose such fees. Joe Thesing, assistant vice president-state affairs with NAMIC, says most auto insurance policies don’t cover non-medical accident response and thus won’t pay the fee. The result, he says, is that municipalities wind up collecting only a fraction of what they’re billing for.
“These fees are a form of double taxation applied only to responsible citizens who follow state law and carry auto insurance,” Thesing says. “It’s our belief that responding to investigative accidents is a function of police and fire departments supported by local taxes.”
Thesing contends third-party vendors have been “duping” municipalities into thinking that the insurance industry is the “cash cow” they can use to prop up their ailing budgets.
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One of the largest such vendors is Cost Recovery Corp. of Dayton, Ohio, a collection agency that has contracts with hundreds of municipalities in 16 states. Its president, Regina Moore Jones, disputes Thesing’s contention that “responsible” drivers are being hit with unfair bills.
“We never bill for an ‘accident.’ There has to be some sort of negligence. There’s never a victim that’s ever assessed a fee. Only a negligent party and their insurance provider receive a bill,” Moore Jones told msnbc.com.
She said negligent drivers – not taxpayers – should rightfully foot the bill for police or fire response to car crashes.
“Tax dollars should be used for core services. Core services do not include subsidizing for negligence,” Moore Jones said. “Is it popular with insurance? Absolutely not.”
Thesing says more local governments are shying away from such fees as they learn more about the insurance process and as a result of negative publicity.
In the past five or six years, at least 40 municipalities have rescinded or voted down accident response fee ordinances, according to Thesing. That includes New York, the nation’s most populous city, where Mayor Michael Bloomberg last year dropped plans to charge motorists involved in accidents as much as $495 for emergency-response services. The proposal was shelved following an outcry of opposition from citizens, city council members and others.
“The Fire Department doesn't charge for its response to structural fires, and the Police Department doesn't charge for patrolling a block," City Council Speaker Christine Quinn said at the time. "Charging for responding to the scene of an accident is a slippery slope, and I don't want to see us begin to go down that road out of a desperate desire to find sources of revenue."
Carol L. Schlitt, a New York personal injury attorney, said the Bloomberg administration's idea was wrongheaded from the start.
“These are basic government functions that the government is supposed to provide to its citizenry,” she told msnbc.com. “The reason we have government is to provide services for the common good. When you impose these types of fees or taxes it is a destruction of the communal bond.”
For Feldman, the $200 bill he wound up paying hurt more than the cuts and bruises he sustained in the scooter accident. He got an insurance settlement for the damaged bike, but never got relief for the first-responder fee.
“This is not acceptable to me. You have to come up with another way (of raising revenue) without exploiting people,” he said.
“I don’t go back to Chicago Heights anymore. I’ve told everybody I know, ‘Stay away, they’re going to find some way to get money from you.’”
Chicago Heights Mayor David Gonzalez did not immediately return a call for comment.
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The original taxes we pay to the state pays for such service. Any other taxes imposed should cancel out the prior taxes. otherwise why should we pay taxes or even want to visit the cities in question. We would be inclined to spend our money and vacations in other states and or countries.
Yep...we pay state and local taxes to cover...guess what...police and fire services.
That's why we pay taxes. If there is going to be a fee, then I want my taxes reduced.
Regardless of what we do the powers that be can never have enough taxes to pay for the services we need and the graft they need. We've wasted so much money in this country over the past 50 years to corrupt practices and outright fraud that had we prosecuted and recovered the misappropriated funds, we'd be in much better shape now.
Almost right workingpoor - there's not enough money to cover the services we allow government to provide that are beyond the basic required services.
Correct. Government is only supposed to cover basic services. The issue is they've created a lot of other services the private sector should be handling, along with bloating up the workforce that we have to cover pensions for state and local officials.
Most are tired of paying taxes and having them raised to cover things that were never meant to be covered by taxes...lavish retirements, salaries and benefits being a few.
I don't know what state all you folks are from but here in AZ only the very basic services of the pd and the fd are covered by taxes. Yup it ticks me off when I see a cop texting while driving while not wearing his seat belt. I have had the priviledge of being treated twice by FD EMT's, they were thorough, gentle and expediant. I have no problem in paying a higher tax to cover the pd and the fd. What I hate is a tax hike for public schools when the $$ never gets to the students.
These fees are absurd. These services are what we pay taxes for. As for the specific case in the article, the guy should take the other driver to small claims court to get the fee back if the other driver was found at fault in the accident.
A couple of reasons local govts find themselves impoverished: 1)They were forced to provide HealthEducation&Welfare benefits to illegal immigrants recruited & employed by local business. 2)People aren't working, those who are working aren't making much, therefore spending and sales tax monies are down.
In addition, local govts are so busy rebating taxes to large corporations that when they run out of money, they turn to the barely making ends meet working person to cough up more dough.
I bet if these govts took a good, long look at their own system and purged the fraud and corruption from it, they'd have more money for normal operations.
Quite the bill for crashing a scooter.
I'd hate to see what they would bill you for getting raped.
I would just tell the municipality to deduct it out of my prepayment - because that is what my taxes would then be. What is next - a fire tax? If you are unfortunate enough to have a fire at your home you will be charged a fee for the fire department to come to your house to put it out? Or, a domestic dispute and you will be charged for the police to come out and ensure your safety?
The quick fix if you are at fault for an accident is this: If the at fault party's insurance refuses to pay that fee, then threaten to take their insured to small claim for that fee. If they refuse, file and have served. Then they will pay because the law is clear, they have too. And they have to pay all our court fee's too. If they don't, their insured can sue them for hundreds of thousands of dollars for failing to represent them.
Just because the law says they have to pay, insurance companies (an others) will refuse to see if you will push them.
"If you don't know your rights, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!"
this is the republican wet dream. you choke government of all funding, and then have people start paying for public services a la carte.
then the next step is, naturally, privatize it. privatize roads and education, privatize basic infrastructure, privatize police and fire departments.
and once everything is privatized, we can just watch all the lazy people starve, burn, and rot, lest the charities step in, of course.
That is what people get when you elect Democrats..dont whine!
LostFlorida,
Perhaps getting raped IS the bill?
Michael AKR
No, this is what you GET when you elect REPUBLICANs. Why should anyone pay taxes for these kinds of services. Privatize it right.....
*Note to Self. If you get in an accident.... REFUSE fire truck assistance. If you don't, you will have to pay for it, even if you didn't cause the accident. Unbelievable.
There was a case in Tennessee where the fire department sat by and let a woman's home burn to the ground. Why did they do this? Because she did not pay the extra $75 fire tax. The fire department was there to protect her neighbors homes who paid their tax. They had plenty of time to stop the fire when they arrived but were ordered not to because she did not pay the fee. The family had to run into the burning house to try and retrieve as much as they could before it was gone. The local government stated that if the fire department put it out, then there was no incentive for people to pay the extra $75 fee.
i agree with zaruski completely, i work for the only Big city in Il and was injured while working and recieved the bill from the fire dept emergency responders. Look waht happened in Wis pretty soon we will have only two classes of people rich/poor then this will be a great country if the republicans and all their special interests have their way 48 million on a recall election
The taxes we pay goes to city employees so they can retire earlier then 65 and get full benefits for rest of their life, and also for illegals - their kids go to school, go to colleges and for their welfare . When we going to wake up?
already happening, but they just let the house burn if you don't pay the upfront fee
@zaruski,
That is certainly one way to look at it -- Republican wet dream.. But the fact is that property and state taxes cover these costs - fire, police and EMT. And just like the excise tax on a gallon of gas, these all go into the general fund of the municipal and state. Choke down? Hum, how about some level of government start to act fiscally responsible!! See San Diego and other town in California lower retirement funding due to non-receipt of necessary tax money to cover what they had.
If not the city, then the state and federal government all have to act responsibly!!
Endeavor - the case you are posting about was regarding a home in the county, outside the city limits. The county residents had the option of paying an annual $75 fee for the "just in case" event that there was a fire. The county did not have a fire department. The homeowner located in the county refused to pay the fee to contract with the city fire department, hence the city fire department not putting the fire out. Might want to compare apples to apples instead of to oranges.
Mrs. Regina Moore Jones is an outright liar or Mr Feldman would not have gotten a bill for getting hit by someone else. The other party was responsible so Mr Feldman should not have been billed at all. She is just a scam artist that is making a quick buck while she can. Hopefully, the cities and states will shut her scam down.
@ jfl1971
That is correct. The residents within the city did not have to pay the fee; only exterior residents in the county. This is the outcome to direct "excess taxation". Do the homeowners outside the city limits deserve to have extra fees added to them for the same service others receive for free when they are within the same coverage area of that fire department? I would suspect the homeowners paid county and state tax. The government there; in my opinion, shows a lack in responsibility by allowing this type of incident to occur when it had the ability to prevent it. The fire department where I live is volunteer. The local government needs to go to this type of measure as evidently they haven't the finances to support a salaried one. For the fire department to "let it burn" while they were already there...to me is inhumane.
when you hear Chris Christie or another republican cut taxes... you should know they aren't suddenly taking it out of their salary or firing aids, IT IS ALWAYS THE POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENT TAKING THE HIT. My little brother works for the FD, and they elected to build a new stadium and swimming pool (NEW, they had others available) for the school instead of building a new department for the 50 year old building that was infested with rats, couldn't fit the equipment, and was downright dangerous.
The FD should just sit and watch it burn if they don't pay, that's what these jerks ask for by electing these officials and not paying the fee. Your stealing from fire fighters that risk their LIVES for you. You want private companies doing it? They won't do it for free, this is what you get.
You don't suppose that these "cash strapped" communities got their gouging ways directly from someplace like the Airlines?.........Maybe?? God forbid if they have to use the booster hose off the fire truck to wash your blood off the street. Maybe charge you for the water out of the truck too! That means they'll have to install a water meter on the hose and I suppose (then) there will be a water meter tax too. Of course cleaning service for the soiled fire uniforms and a traffic control tax by the police also is a no-brainer............How about we all just stay home and boycott 'em for a week?
I can actually feel desperation in the air in this country...................................................................
Well Endeavor, I'm not sure about everybody else but I pay county, state and city taxes which gives me city services such as fire & police protection. I'm in Phoenix and it is the same thing with the fire departments. If you are on a county island or in an area where there is no fire department then you have a fee for outside or city fire departments to come in. Now I know at least here, if you do not pay the annual fee then you can choose at the time of the incident to pay the cost of the services which ranges in the $10k+. In addition, for our EMS & fire system (in Phoenix) there is no charge for fire to come for a fire or to arrive on scene for medical but if you are transported then you have to pay for the cost of transport. Police is of course free; well unless you get a ticket but that's something completely different, lol.
Hey, when you've got guys retiring in their mid-to-late 40's at up to 90% of their highest annual pay (in many cases that means six-figures) additional revenue is required.
and the oil companies, wall street, the banks, enron, etc.
Great point Isee.....................
mg979, where the hell are you getting your figures from? Most departments have a "rule of 75" where you must be at least 55 and have 20 years of service to retire on 50% - 70%. Please cite your sources for your inflated retirement figures. And let's look at their cancer rates and other things like divorce and alcoholism compared to the rest of the workforce. Yeah, great deal.
And if most people weren't so stupid and would actually solve some of their own "emergencies" police and fire wouldn't be responding to the point they need to charge. People are getting more and more ignorant (or dumb) and think 911 is ALWAYS the solution. You've got every knucklehead with a cell phone reporting everything, regardless of the situation. Of course, they are too busy to stop and help or find out what's going on, but hey, that's somebody else's problem, right? We are a nation of people who can't take any responsibility for ourselves, so let's blame the first responders. What a joke. 9/11 is long over and they don't seem so much like "heroes" when they ask for money, eh? How bout you all run down to your local fire department and volutneer or apply or you're so concerned? Not so much, I bet. No no. Much easier to sit back and blame people who are doing things we either can't or outright refuse to.
And Apple.
It is a terrible situation indeed. I feel that the fire department, rescue services and the police should all be covered 100% by government. There should be no extra fee for their services. It is the responsibility of the controlling governments to make sure the tax revenue they receive covers this. Public meetings; at least where I live, help to point out problems in the community to local officials so proper allocations are made.
These government entities that support "fee based" service are showing their lack of leadership by allowing vital services to be diminished. I voice my thoughts in my community here and have open discussions with other community active participants to help find resolution to problems addressed at these meetings.
Several men; whom my children went to school with, are apart of the volunteer firefighters here. They are dedicated and professional in every way. I just don't understand what could be more important than these services. If terrorist attack your town I just can't see the military charging the locals a fee for protection from property damage to saving their lives. I feel an outcome like that could be in the near future.
How in the hell do you morons figure double taxation is a "republican wet dream"? You brainwashed fools have no idea what personal responsibility is and couldn't identify a copy of the US Constitution if it was labeled with a sticky note. Corruption and greed will ALWAYS exist. Republicans believe that smaller government and less taxation reduces the occurrence of it in our government. Democrats just think that they can somehow eliminate it from the human condition, but in the meantime, Make as many regulations, laws and taxes as you can. Did your momma ever tell ya that too much of a good thing can be bad? Government regulations are like medication for the elderly. One day, you wake up and you're taking 50 pills a day and most of them treat the side effects of the pill you took right before it. We need a clean install of America's Operating System. We are so jammed up with Malware and spyware, our processes are dragging down our performance.
Sounds like our "elite" politicians are finding "junk" means to "increase" City/State revenues to cover the costs of their "employees" pension and health care plans or to fund their "pet" projects.
Example: Washington State voters passed an initiative to keep car tabs near $20/year. They certainly tossed the results of the vote in the trash can. One of my vehicles was recently re-registered and the total cost: over $ 78.000. And, they INCLUDED a plate replacement fee because the plate's "luminosity" was deemed inappropriate after three years.
Yep, you guessed it.....Democrat controlled City and State.
He is pretty stupid for a clinical Phsych. The person responsible for the fee is the guy and his insurance company that ran into him. We my sons and I were struck in an accident and received an ambulance bill for being transported to the hospital. I called and they refered me to another person who took the name of the person and his insurance info and told me that they did not have that info and that insurance co paid for it. Of course you pay taxes in small communites for fir and police protection but neither I or the driver of the other car lived thesre so we got charged. My lawyer said we were about 300 feet insid eo ftheir area and had it happened in my community I would not have been charged. I just got to say this. Many of us love to tell people we live in the greatest country on earth. Alot of us then turn around and bitch about taxes which helps in making this and others great countries. The hype from the right is ruining this country. The first time I made money I had to pay taxes on my dad helped me. I asked him why we had to pay taxes. He explained and I never gave it a negative thought after that,
No one is responsible for a fee thats these fat fools job to be a fireman or a police man. they get paid a good amount for a govt slave. They live in decent to nice houses drive decent to nice cars. Now they want more money after they are getting paid to do the service they are trying to charge the citizens. there is a reason a small percentage of the higher ups are furious about it. Who wants to live where the cops harrass you and your kids, Ambulances and firetrucks wont show up unless you pay them on the spot, Doctors will turn you away from a hospital because you cant afford insurrance. Nobody with money wants to live there everyone wants to leave that place. therefore the counties are losing more and more money because they have dick cops @!$%# firemen and @!$%#ty doctors not to mention a city council that allows it to all happen. You well off people make me sick how you live in your own little box to shut your mouth and do what your told and not use common sense. Dont worry the world is on to you and one day believe it or not or even now some of the problems you face in your life are because of the action you allow to happen to the people you are supposed to be protecting and serving.
Hype from the right? lol. You're delusional. I suppose those black guys were just whining before the civil war started. They should have just shut up and went on as normal. Or hell, the Boston Tea Party was just a bunch of complainers with no real axe to grind. Though, your horribly typed opinion regarding taxation is welcomed, your ignorant comment about "the right", who are mostly good people trying to prevent people like you from turning this country into the next failed communist regime. Taxes ARE a necessity, like potassium, iron and magnesium, but if you take too much, It'll kill ya. We have taken too much for far too long. That's why we are in the position we are in.
ldo
I assume you are referring to the rich GOP politicians right? I mean if they were going to lead by example, they would CUT their own pension, health care plans, and salaries first right??
Isn't this similar to allowing phone companies to charge their 'hidden' fees? Or how about insurance companies that charge their little hidden fees, because of a 'change in policy'. Or how about ATM charges that are from the banks? All companies that use their lobbyists to get corporate welfare from the GOP.
Yep, you guessed it, the Fleecing of America by both parties right? Or is it only Democrats in your world.
P.S. As so many righties have said... don't like it, then you can move.
Surprise, surprise that this is happening in the liberal cesspool state of Illinois, where taxes are already thru the roof to support the massive population of career welfare rats.
More tax cuts for the 1%, smaller government, WTF do you expect? This is capitalism, baby! Fire departments, policemen, public education...all socialist constructs. This is exactly the GOP teabag vision, and is apparently what Americans want because they keep voting for it. And if you didn't vote, you voted for it too.
How does a government agency charging fees to people for services that it was the governments responsibility to fund equate with the "evil 1%" who have little or nothing to do with determining how much manpower, equipment, is needed to insure the safety of the citizens????? We have government corrupted and bloated looking for ever increasing ways to siphon more money away from those of us who actually work for a living and produce goods and services....Exactly what does government produce? Laws, regulations (most of which are not enforced), taxes, levies, millages, fees....(all forms of taxation and ways to separate us from what we earn) I simply am amazed that people who do work, who claim to be part of the 99% cannot see this same simple fact. Look at a utility bill.....how much of that bill is going to taxes??? How much of the pump price of gasoline is going to taxes???? Property taxes continue to increase but property values continue to fall???? When do taxes get adjusted down? Ever notice that taxes (even those claimed to be temporary) never get smaller and never go away? For those who are in Illinois, I give you the tollway system which just doubled the tolls, a system that was only going to take payment long enough for it to pay for the construction-back in the 1950's when Eisenhower pushed for a unified interstate network. Almost 70 years and we are paying more tolls than ever before....And the temporary income tax hike in Illinois isn't going to be temporary-everyone knows that, but politicans will continue to lie and sugar coat things to make the bad taste go down. Who is most invulnerable to unemployment? Government and government workers. Who has the best treatment in terms of vacation and paid holidays?...government workers and public school teachers, who are in fact employees of a governmental body. Who has the biggest pensions? Government workers again.....Who is guaranteed raises and cost of living increases? Is anyone seeing a pattern here? Wake up, this isn't about the 1% not paying sufficient taxes-as far as government is concerned, there is no such thing as sufficient taxes from any of us, and after they have driven the wealthy and their wealth from this country, the will feed on what is left of the working people. Government is the parasite and the dead weight, needing to be put on a strict diet, curbed into a shape that serves us better. And we need to be willing to listen to the inevitable whining and moaning and "Henny Penny, the sky is falling" messages of doom cried out by a government that doesn't want to give up any single one of its perks or its programs to live within a budget-Heck, they can't even manage to write a budget.
I think we havent taxed citizens enough for these services. Domestic dispute and you call the police to save you? $200.00 bill sent out. Your liquor store got robbed? thats $800.00 bill (robbers gotta gun so it raised the cost) If he used a bat it wouldve been way less. Say your house is on fire? oh man, big time bill there. Heart attack happenin to your father. the ambulance costs money, actually i was billed 1000.00 dollars for a ride in one. anyways most of the time insurance would pay for this right? yeah right.
I'm having difficulty determining whether or not "Simply put" is being sarcastic or not. Maybe I'm thick headed but not taxed enough? you have to be joking.
I wonder how various local governments are expected to keep providing such services when we perpetually keep voting for reducing pay of public employees and for reducing our own taxes?
This is what you get when on the path to a 'government so small I can drown it in a bathtub.' Eventually, this will be all be provided by private companies, who will then feel free to charge you whatever prices they feel are right.
Everyone, including governments need to live within their means. The only time you raise taxes is if there is some unforeseen disaster and you need to cover that.
Spending like drunks and idiots isn't an unforeseen disaster..it's just stupidity at the highest level of government.
Well said James! And as the stories have started to show in St Louis - many of our police and fire fighters file for disability and then are found to have taken other jobs with other police or fire departments or jobs in security. So it's not always because we're paying less as Byron would like everyone to think.
As a conservative, I have 4 things to say to this
1) You can't get something for nothing, firefighters expect to get paid
2) It is unfair socialism to expect the tax payer to pay for a fire response that you are using because of your own personal negligence
3) As a victim of an accident, I wouldn't pay for something I used to get for 'free'.
4) You can't expect insurance companies to cover all expenses relating to an accident, they need to make a profit as well. We are a capitalist society, how do you expect the shareholders and CEO's of insurance companies to keep the lifestyles they are accustomed to if they have to pay for every cost associated with claims made against them, and pay for all of the lawyers to dispute those claims. Something has to give, unless you made all insurance companies non-profits or something.
What everyone needs to start understanding is that everytime you want to pass a law, a new order, a new requirement there is a cost associated with that, and we the tax payers are getting sick of this mess!!!
So to all of those leaning to the left...
Want medical benefits for everyone? 1 trillion dollars per year
want everyone to drive Environmentally friendly cars 500 Billion per year
Living wage for ALL? trillion dollars per year
and for those leaning to the right...
Want a war on drugs? 1 trillion dollars per year, tens of thousands dead anually, and tens of thousands arrested, that committed no crimes against anyone else.
War in Iraq? 500 Billion dollars per year
Want to take away birth control options for women? Bankrupt!
Everyone needs to come to their respective senses, only then can we get our fiscal house in order and our taxes in line!
In the event that your government taxes any citizen in excess of 10% the citizenry has the right to revolt. (Ben Franklin one of our founding fathers)
As a fiscal conservative in response to your points...
1) They do get paid. It's called State and Local taxes to cover the cost of their services and salaries. For Departments to continue to 'ask' for Donations and other things either means that the State/Local isn't allocating enough funds or they are government overspending and need to redirect funding. I will never say we shouldn't pay well or Firefighters and Police..they do DANGEROUS work and deserve it (I do think any Police or FF that is caught double dipping or committing fraud with injury should be barred from all future payments). But when I see them on street corners asking for donations, it pisses me off because they shouldn't need to do that. The idiotic officials need to put money where it's needed.
2) If it is caused by stupidity, then there should be a additional charge. Otherwise again, all responses are covered by taxpayers already.
3) Agreed
Byron,
If we are truly reducing the pay for public employees (and were are not) then wouldn't that increase the funds available for the local government thereby decreasing the need for supplement bills for things like this? You mention that we keep reducing our taxes. What taxes are being reduced? When was the last time you had a significant reduction in state/local income, sales or property taxes?
Every year like clockwork my school taxes increase. My property taxes have done nothing but go up since I bought my home a decade ago. When are my taxes going to go down? I have no children in the school system, nor have I ever. I will pay a fair base tax for supporting a school system, but parents who have children in school should foot the bill when they want to make expensive upgrades for appearances. Like the 1 million dollar plus renovation of one near by high school's athletic field and bleachers. The paper quoted some of the parents complaining how another area high school had a better athletic field & they thought it was embarrassing to have a lesser quality athletic field.
So, if I follow your logic, hypocrisy1776, you think that I should have to pay for the FD's response to my house fire, if it is determined that it my negligence that caused it (i.e. I left a towel on the stove)? Wow, what a great new source of revenue for the government! Well, it must have been faulty wiring, I gotta pay the 'response tax'! That space heater I bought got a short in it and burned the house down, I gotta pay! My kid got a lighter & caught the place on fire, I gotta pay! etc, etc. Please define a situation, at least relating to house fires, that couldn't/wouldn't be construed as some type of human negligence (including something in the way the house was built), such that I wouldn't be charged this 'response fee.' I can't think of one off the top of my head, so basically we could be saying you better whip out your credit card before you ever call the FD.
Why am I even paying taxes for 911 response, if I'm also going to get slammed with a bill if I have to actually use them?
RNC Chair Reince Priebus: "I don't think laws can circle around what's right and wrong"
You are right on the money..Everyone wants more and more never satisfied with what they need
.Everything is going to be turned over to corporations and exchanges to run.
Anybody ever think of Michigan the great experiment state. The citizens have even lost their right to vote, but they are suppose to cough up that tax money.
Sadly, insurance companies rake in millions from people forced to buy insurance and only pay out thousands by comparison.
Robert-2302414
applause from texas. Great comment.
Byron wrote:
When have we done that? Maybe it has happened a few times, though I don't know of an instance, but it's hardly rampant, and certainly not "perpetual". Regards....
How about pay freezes for several years? while health insurance and other benefits costs go up? I believe THAT counts as a pay reduction. Anybody here realize that getting a paid FD job is one of the most competitve things to get next to professional sports. Nationally, only 1% of applicants are hired. Of those, about 17% don't even make it through the academy. Anybody working at a bank or 7-11 have to go through anything like this? Here are a few more facts about paid fire departments (P.S. about 70% of all firefighters are volunteer, so they get no monetary compensation.)
Firefighters do not receive Social Security. This is a cost savings to the cities and counties that employ firefighters (the employers do not pay the 6+% payroll tax for Social Security), but also means retired firefighters can't collect this benefit. The lack of Social Security benefits and the payroll savings to local government is rarely mentioned in discussions about public employee benefits.
Firefighter retirement benefits are not paid by the "taxpayers," cities, counties or state. Benefits are deferred compensation, and are paid by the employee funded retirement systems, such as a 457K deferred plan. These funds come from employee and employer contributions made while the employee was working, and the vast majority of benefits paid come from market growth and interest from the investment of those contributions. Out of every dollar that funds a firefigter's pension and health insurance plan, 100 cents comes from the workers because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. Taxes are paid upon receipt of these funds.
Thank you JS69 for this insight. I think too many people rush to demonize public employees without ever knowing anything about thier jobs, job requirements, pay, and beneifits. Public empoyees are working class people, just like most americans and like most americans are hard working and deserve better.
I have doubts about a "crash tax" although I can't completely disagree with fining neglegent people for crashes they cause. Really why should they not be fined to help compensate the tax payers for the money they wasted for thier neglegence?
I really don't think that people are disputing the need to pay our emergency personnel properly. Nor do I think that anyone disputes the need to care for an emergency responder who is injured protecting others. What the complaints seem to be relating to are abuses. Money not being directed into the programs that people paying taxes expected the dollars to cover. Those claiming disability and collecting, but being well enough to earn a living elsewhere at the same time. Early retirements with outrageously high pension and benefit...(and this would not apply to the first responders, but to the administrators, who are never directly in harms way.) It is also easy to make extreme and ridiculous examples whenever anyone suggests that we as a nation need to assume a greater personal responsibility role in assisting our police and firefighters and paramedics....simple stuff like properly functioning smoke detectors, making sure that we have fire extinguishers in our homes, having escape plans and drills, just as they might do at school or work....These sorts of simple things might prevent alot of emergencies from getting out of control and costing our communities. What about neighborhood watch groups to be the eyes and ears of the police (we used to have police call boxes in neighborhoods) Why do we need so many police, because people expect them to be able to patrol every single foot of the community which translates into more manpower on the streets....
Wow, so no one got the fact that the four points I mentioned contradict each other. I also love hearing constantly about abuse when it comes to the public system, but you never hear about it in the private system even though we end up paying for/bailing out those who rob/cheat and steal from the private system. If you support publicly financed fire fighters/police/military, then on some level you are supporting socialism. I never hear the far right wanting to completely privatize these, or to privatize health care for our troops. They think the troops deserve , "The best health care we have". Then, if you are a Republican and the private sector IS ALWAYS better than the government, shouldn't you be pushing for private insurance? And if you are saying that they currently have the best healthcare, provided by the government, then are you admitting that the government can do some things as well as or better than the private sector? Also, if there are some of you out there who really think there isn't fraud and abuse in the private sector, then why did we have to bail out several private companies, and if there is, do you think that somehow you are personally immune from paying for it?
Oh gee you want me to do something thats going to cost you extra. Ridiculus to have to pay additional money to government for things they are all ready get paid for.
We deserver this Cr^p. Cutting taxes without thought to needs has gotten us where we are now. Thanks GOP and tjhose that ascriber to their stupidity. The trickle down theory was just a way to p!ss on us.
It's true, cutting taxes means less money for emergency services, but it doesn't give the County a right to become an ambulance chaser and charge for services it didn't render, especially when Mr. Feldman did not call nor was he at fault.
Cutting taxes has nothing to do with this...get real.
Why don't you go look at the salaries of those local officials and see where the bloat is and where the additional money can come from...along with their books...I'm sure they are over-spending and wasting money everywhere. Along with pensions that are far too generous.
The country is waking up. Why should private sector workers pay for the lavish retirements of public officials and workers. They already get ridiculous benefits.
Many of the cities that have charged these stupid fees are controlled by DEMOCRATS. They have spent money way beyond what they have coming in. It's reduction in revenue because people are leaving the cities and aren't paying the taxes there anymore.
Agreed. There are Republican ones also but the worst off are by far the Democratic ones...especially in California.
I'm glad San Diego woke up and voted to cut pensions and benefits for many officials that were lavish to begin with.
What taxes are being cut? Get real
Maine was the same with Democrats but now we have a republican governor and the state is starting to turn around. People don't like the fact that you have to cut spending in some areas to keep moving forward. You don't necessarily have to increase taxes, just be responsible with what you have.
What taxes have been cut? Name one. Just one. Please, any one. Just one tax that has been cut. Even if it's small cut, microscopic even. Just one?
The problem is that nobody is willing to cut out the fat, the graft, the corruption, to make a budget meet with a reduced income (Yet every American family is asked to do that time and again) Why shouldn't government have to prioritize and allocate the reduced funds to the most important aspects of protecting the community.....Not sure that we really need street cleaners as I have never been able to tell the difference after they have passed through the neighborhood, and they only clean the curb and gutter....why can't the property owners all agree to sweep their own front sidewalks? The only reason that anyone "needs" street cleaners is that it is somebody's cousin, sister, brother-in-law or best buddy who is being paid more money than I make to ride this crazy machine around.....Nepotism is alive and well in government. A day doesn't go by that you don't hear about some politician hiring some relative in an outrageous type of "make work" job at a ridiculously large salary...with benefits of course! And we have become immune to it and don't demand that it stop, nor do we vote the offenders out of office and take away their benefits and pensions for bilking the public.
Somebody should have to pay but it shouldn't be the victim. Don't ever believe that you are anything but an adversary in the Govenment's eyes. They are out to extract every dime from the public that is possible.
Joe Public - the ultimate cash cow.
Jan...they already pay..it's called LOCAL taxes.
Thanks for your permission to charge Jan. The next charge will be when you call 911 to say there's been an accident and you get charged and you weren't even in the accident - you were just the good Samaritan that called it in.
Calling 911 already costs money. I don't remember how much, but it's added to your phone bill.
I've seen where an emergency call was billed to an individual when he was deemed not to be in need of emergency services, which I find entirely appropriate. However, I find it appalling that the at fault motorist wasn't billed for this and the city/collection company went after the victim. I guess now he has to sue for that $200 since his insurance covered the damages and medical.
I agree...false alarm, charge them, but legitimate calls...You are paid via taxes. Even if the person is from out of town, they are bringing business to your town and paying taxes to your businesses.
There was another story a year or so ago where the fire department sat and watched a house burn to the ground because the people were late in paying their tax bill. They were only there to keep the houses around it from going up in smoke. I find that despicable as well.
I agree Berenerd - the story I remember was in Tennessee and it was a dispute between two different taxing authorities. I question the professionalism of any firefighter, policeman and others that respond to any scene and sit by and watch.
berenerd
It wasn't because they were late paying their tax bill. It was because they didn't pay the fire fee. It was the same type of situation that this article is based on. The states cut taxes and then the state and local government comes up with these fees's to make up for the tax cuts. That is so the positions can say, "I cut taxes".
It would be refreshing to learn if other communities with a fee for fire protection were flooded with money from people who re-thought the risk they were taking. I suspect that was not the case. Every one of us knows someone who would rather keep their up-graded cable of phone system (or whatver they spend their money on) rather then pay for something they hope to never use. That is probably a poor example because fire and ambulance protection fees are generally very, very low. The free ambulance annual fee in my community is only $50.00. This whole thing presents the old problem; people are allowed to demand services after deliberately avoiding responsible adult behavior.
We see things like this around us frequently. I don't have to study. I don't have to graduate. I don't have to be to work on time. I don't have to save. All these statements are based on the smug attitude that someone else will always be there to 'help out'. Some people are finding that is not always true. There are times when people must take some responsible action for themselves.
Oh, they probably went after the at-fault guy too. Just that the article wasn't about him or quoting him. Why settle for $200 when you can collect $400?
paco
Those communities are. It's call property tax. Most people dislike paying twice for the same thing.
Communities support their fire fighters in a variety of ways. That's why I used the example of ambulance service in my town. The ambulance service is not supported by taxes. Although it works very closely with town government it is not a government function. I can either pay an annual fee for unlimited usage or take my chances and be billed, a very high bill, if I opt out. If fire protection is provided through taxes then everyone is covered in the same way and , yes, double taxation is wrong.
There are some towns so small they don't have any fire department at all. As I understand it the residents can elect to pay a fee in order to be covered by the fire department of a nearby town, where they do not pay taxes. So it is a case by case basis with these towns and these people.
Liberals want government to pay for everything forever, even if we are broke and many locales are dead broke.
justredd, I don't think this is a liberal issue. How would you like to have to pay for someone knocking you off of your motorcycle from behind...not be hurt..and yet have to pay for the fire department response? I don't think that is liberal thinking at all. If anyone should pay it should be the party who hit the guy. Not the guy himself. Hell, he didn't even need treatment.
Justredd, this is the exact OPPOSITE of what liberals support. Tea-party, GOP morons who argue for "small government" and lower taxes want this EXACT type of government model. They want to lower or remove taxes and have citizens pay "a la carte". Meaning, you pay no taxes to the city, but you pay separately for your garbage pickup, tolls for road usage, hire-out if you want fire coverage, etc.
I think the biggest problem in the United States is people like you, who don't understand what "small government" really is, having the right to vote.
You're an imbecile. These are services we already pay for. You republicans don't know if you're pro, or anti-tax these days. Americans, not 'liberals', want what we pay for - we want taxation WITH REPRESENATATION. And don't forget, "red", you republicans are the reason America is broke, you're the reason we're trillions of dollars in debt. Why aren't you republicans for eliminating the middle class payrole taxes? Why aren't you republicans for eliminating taxes like the "crash tax"? I think it's evident: you're too dumb to know what you're for or against, red. You republicans are woefully undereducated - you can blame that on the policies you voted for in your 'red states'. You rely on fox news to tell you what policies you should be for - and against. You don't know what Real Conservatism is, red. You neocons are destroying America. And you're too stupid to know it.
Just responding to the nitwit comments above blaming it on the GOP...bull@!$%#. I vote and voted for teaparty conservatives...government is running aground in debt. Just look at many cities that are dead broke due to overspending and welfare. of course the guy at fault should pay and in no way would I pay if someone hit me, screw em.\
See u @!$%# liberals know nothing but name calling as usual from a bunch of libretards.
I agree justredd64 - I'm tired of the liberal crowd trying to tell the world what I support and don't support. I pay all of my taxes and I'm absolutely fed up with liberals saying that our push to implement tax cuts say we don't need essential services like Police and Fire. What I don't need and don't want to pay for are Daycare Centers, subsidized bus fares and a host of other services the liberals want to classify as essential.
In all of the cities I've lived in in MO, FL and WA my garbage bill, sewer bill and other utilities were just that BILLS and not part of the taxes that I paid.
just
hmmm,
Well let's cut some more taxes then. That will help right?
No, flnobody - let's cut SPENDING!!! That will help.
Okay, Wakeup, let's cut a few hundred billion a year from the "Defense" Department. That ought to be a start; then we can cut a few billion from Congress's budget and pension plan.
To update Sen. Everett Dirksen's comment, "A trillion here, a trillion there, pretty soon you're talking about real money."
wake
I don't know of a state that hasn't cut spending. In most cases, they have cut the wrong spending. Like in Florida, they have laid-off thousands of teachers, closed schools all over the place. They have doubled the cost of your driver's license and the cost of you tags. Added fire fees and in some areas, they charge you to have a fire truck to show at your auto accident. The fees will run from about $250 to $1,500. It depends on if the fire department just shows up. Or if they have to help you, or the top fee if they after to cut you out of the vehicle. They also added a little thing that says your insurance company is not responsible to pay that fee either. But now if you own 2 or 3 or more homes. You get a tax cut on each of those homes. If you have only one home, you don't get the added tax break. But you do have to pay those fees. So you tell me who are those tax breaks are for? And who gets screwed with those fees?
taxation without representation - double taxation - more and more tax
Sounds an awful lot like a story from the 1770's
Who we gonna revolt against? oh wait before we can revolt against anything there must be cooperation among the people.
We (all of us) have made our bed - now we must sleep in it.
NOT FUN SLEEPING IN A MESSY BED IS IT !!!!
RNC Chair Reince Priebus: "I don't think laws can circle around what's right and wrong"
isn't this a great way for the GOP to decide the laws that govern the American people.
According to the GOP there is nothing wrong with anything that happens in peoples lives.
They are not saying it is right either..
I wonder what their bottom premise is that defines how they decide and draft the laws for us.
They certainly have taxation laws down to a fine art form of unknown origin.
There should be a option to "opt out" of the fees which of course means that no service is provided either.
To be charged the emergency response personnel must communicate with the consumer and validate that assistance is needed. The only exception is if the consumer is not able to respond or their life is in jeopardy, under these circumstances assistance should be rendered. Otherwise if the situation is not a viable emergency the consumer must sign a bill acceptance form to receive assistance. This will prevent the so called "drive by" assistance where the emergency personnel see a incident and drive by but do not exit their vehicle or communicate with the consumer.
That's a great idea dj. No government at all unless you call and request it and then you pay for it. We can get rid of all government employees and make them contract hired when you call. I really do like that idea because then my city can get rid of their code enforcement official that they pay $40K plus benefits per year for to drive around and measure the height of grass in the town. They can get rid of the Arborist they pay $60K per year plus benefits for to tell you a tree is either alive or dead and if you can or can't or have to cut the tree down.
djwilson2.....What if no one at the scene called for the assistence. Bill the caller? And what if the caller borrowed a phone to make the call, or used a business' phone, is the caller or the phone owner responsable for the bill. This whole issue is NUTS.
Lisa am i nuts or is this nuts.
RNC Chair Reince Priebus: "I don't think laws can circle around what's right and wrong"
sheilanwp,
You're not nuts!
You just realize that Republicans talk and talk and talk...and nothing they say makes any sense.
I wonder if this happen more where the government official are more liberal or conservative?
Since Illinois tends to be more liberal, I would guess it happens more when the Government is liberal.
I am cutting and pasting a response I used above:
This is the exact OPPOSITE of what liberals support. Tea-party, GOP morons who argue for "small government" and lower taxes want this EXACT type of government model. They want to lower or remove taxes and have citizens pay "a la carte". Meaning, you pay no taxes to the city, but you pay separately for your garbage pickup, tolls for road usage, hire-out if you want fire coverage, etc.
The biggest problem in this country is people don't even understand what "small government" really means.
Except as pointed out - it's the liberal areas that are imposing these fees. So if there's been any tax cuts it would have been done by the liberals and not conservatives.
Facts: Illinois was ranked among the top 5 states in the nation to encourage and attract business growth as recently as five years ago......and guess what, with Springfield and Chicago dominated by liberal politicians, who keep spending, spending, spending.....and selling off income producing assets like the Skyway or the parking meter contracts in Chicago proper....everything is about the quick buck, the quick fix, but nothing really changes. Except for a 50% increase in our income taxes, and property taxes skyrocketting all around the state despite falling property values that are expected to have fallen another 3-4% by year's end.....We are now dead last in the nation-behind even Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania who have been the pity capital of the nation after the collapse of our domestic steel industry, and auto industry calamities in the 1970's and 1980's......In five years, from one of the best to one of the worst. Companies are fleeing the state, jobs are fleeing the state, anyone who has anything left is trying to "get the Hell out of Dodge" Vacant properties, properties in foreclosure are not generating tax revenues, shuttered businesses are not generating tax revenues, nor providing jobs so that folks can pay their tax bills...Yep, the liberals have done wonders for the state of Illinois........And no, we don't really need Obama back here to further complicate life in a miserable place....
Sue...I have family up there and wanted to tell you I think everything you said was dead on !
p.s. I enjoyed your last line :)
These types of fees only breed corruption. Pretty soon the police will encourage unsafe habits and behaviors because it's more profitable.
Police in Mexico already charge "fees" when they respond to a call and find a non-Mexican/non-taxpayer from north of the border.
And if you don't pay the Mexican officer the "fee" immediately, don't be surprised if you wind up in jail.
Isn't charging "fees" for police and fire services just a wonderful future for our society?
Common union thuggery. The FD not doing anything else, show up on the scene and "fine" the person. Happens all the time, goes straight to their pensions you'll be paying for for the rest of your life while they're on a beach.
SW has a point you know, hope all of you were watching...
Case in point, got a ticket recently, 78 in a 55. Got off with court costs + $1.00, as long as they got your money they could care less I'm doing 78. In the public's best interest? I think not...
In AZ, we get to pay for cameras taking pics of your plate and face (yes, I'm a leadfoot). I got one for 71 in a 45 (love my Cobra) and it was criminal from a real live cop. But, like you said they just wanted the $250.
I remember reading last year another California town...think it's called Loma Linda...charges out of towners $400 on their cell phone bill if they call 911. Remedy for that: Just don't call 911 until you leave the city limits. Or better yet let a resident call instead.
Maybe you should research that first for making an accusation.
Just leave me alone. Let me be. I don't call 911. I don't want an ambulance. I don't want the fire dept. I sure as hell don't want the police. They will probably shoot first.
We as citizens are already paying taxes for these services.... A double tax..... Insane, wake up America.
Tea Party Heaven!
Lets talk about crooks :
Cops in Parma , Ohio and local court . If you don't speed or couse an accident you still can get booked for ...all kind of traffic offences , know only by them. That's a place /city that you need to avoid at any cost
We all pay property taxes which are supposed to include fire and police protection. If taxes aren't enough, the real solution, as many municipalities are discovering, is to require "public employees" to pay for some of their benefits as those of us in the private sector do. Another way is to get their salaries more in line with the public sector.
The people responding to the accident are getting paid if they respond to the accident or sitting on their A$$ at the station...charge them for the gas at most.
Police & fire are not "core services"?! These local governments that don't even maintain streets & sewers but have great union benefits & retirement plans should have their incorporation taken away from them by the state. They don't deserve to be cities if they can't provide the basics on their property & sales tax revenue.
Republicans have not cut your local state, city and county taxes. At least where I live, the Democrats have raised our taxes through the stratosphere to pay for their tax and spend political philosophy. What most of the peons dont understand is that you cant keep pileing onthe debt without a way to pay for it. Only those dependent on the taxpayer get mad when taxes are cut. Slavery is doing well today. Slaves now are called taxpayers.
Hi Dennis - that's similar to the comment I made regarding Buffett's comment about Europe could not survive with half of the people being slaves and the other half free. That's where we are in the US today - half pay taxes and the other half live off it.
The "tax and spend" phrase has become really tiresome. Don't you realize that's one of the jobs of govenrment? Seeesh.
OK, Regina Moore Jones says " Negligence drivers not tax payers should rightfully foot the bill". Well is it not negligence that starts FIRES and they respond without a bill YET. She also said There's never a victim that's ever assessed a fee. But yet the elderly gentleman on the scooter was. A bunch of lies from the insurence companies and local governments. There are local governments, that send you a bill for the time it took to write you a ticket. What are they using our tax dallors for besides lining pockets. Oh YEAH, they are REALLOCATING the funds to their special intrest projects or using them to try and balance or hide their misapropriatons.
We never bill for an ‘accident.’ There has to be some sort of negligence. There’s never a victim that’s ever assessed a fee. Only a negligent party and their insurance provider receive a bill,” Moore Jones told msnbc.com
I fainted at a local grocery store in Seminole Co. FL and was transported to the hospital and was charged $450. Now how was I negligent. I did not ask to be transported to the hospital. Next time I will take a taxi. Next time somethings happens, I will think again before I call 911 for anything!
Police, firefighters, educators and most "government workers" are paid less than the national mean. The excess goes to line the pockets of the Administrators like your governor, lt governor, superintendents, and other elected officials. Those actually hired to work don't really get paid what their required skills and education should allow. There is no educational requirement or specialized skill needed to be governor. Unless you count the ability to smooze in the good ole boy network.
I don't understand the comment "paid less than the national mean", the national mean of what profession? They are probably paid less than a heart surgeon, but more than a produce shelf stocker. If you compared their salaries to the salaries of other police or firemen within a 250 mile radius, then you would have a valid statistic and a geographical boundary. For instance, a firefighter in Arizona who's primary role is to fight fires in single story residences, is yes professionally a firefighter. A firefighter in New York City who's primary role is to douse fires in high rise apartment buildings and towering office complexes, is yes professionally a firefighter. But certainly it wouldn't make sense if in a high rise apartment fire in New York City, a tanker aircraft flew over and dumped fire retardant on the entire city block, as they might do in a forest fire.
So, one of the first questions to ask is "Who are the residence of a particular community (type) and what are their primary police and fire fighting demands?" If the residents moved close to a city, but are not in the city's incorporated boundaries, did those residents move to the outlying districts in part to avoid paying for police, fire protection, libraries, municipal waste pickup, water, schools, close proximity to health care, civic and social events, and do they have affiliation with non tax paying organizations such as churches and other tax exempt organizations. Do they live in a state where senior citizens might avoid paying property tax, or have reduced payments. Do they live in a community ( what was it Loma Linda, California ) where the City Manager gets a $400,000+ pension, and the number of residents is less than $10,000?
Are there hospitals around with lots of empty beds? Do they have a school system with an athletic program disproportionate to the population of the tax area.
NATIONAL MEAN is a worthless number for any analysis.
If he doesn't pay, what will they do? It's like the fire department watching people's houses burn because they didn't pay the responder's fee (whatever it's called).
Any way they can get into our pockets they will try. This is the lowest of lows.
They will use the FICO system and credit agencies to screw up your credit if you have any. You know how hard it is to clean up a bad score? Really sucks!
Politicians love to levy taxes on folks who cannot retaliate against them in the voting booth.
The ultimate absurdity of this is we will all be paying some kind of 'non resident' taxes wherever we go, and once again the politicians will be out of control because they have found a way to escape accountability for their actions.
Many people do pay out of town residence fees. Many cities make hotels charge both the sales tax and also a specific hotel tax. They know that most hotel guests are tourists and its' just one more way for them to dig more out of the tourists pockets. There are many other such fees around.
Don:
Ever see the taxes on a rental car? In many places, the taxes are 1/3 the cost of the rental.
The rationale of hotel taxes etc seems to be that visitors need fire and police protection just like the local residents do. That makes at least a little sense. But why here in the Kansas City MO area I pay a tax on rental cars to build a stadium for a bumbling baseball team makes no sense at all.
Orlando, FL is famous for their hotel taxes.
RNC Chair Reince Priebus: "I don't think laws can circle around what's right and wrong"
I believe that this statement explains a lot of things about taxes and regulations.