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Subscribe to RSSThe suicide rate among U.S. troops has surged this year, and Pentagon and military officials studying the current spike have found no apparent reason or developing trend.
There were 154 suicides in the first 155 days of the year – nearly one a day.
The Army convened its suicide prevention group this week to study the alarming numbers, but could not pinpoint a cause.
“There’s obvious concern but we’ve seen the number spike and fall before,” a senior military official told NBC News, particularly during the past three years when the number of suicides among active and reserve forces skyrocketed.
Related: Survivors of military suicide victims come together to grieve
Army data suggest soldiers with multiple combat tours are at greater risk of committing suicide, although a substantial proportion of Army suicides are committed by soldiers who never deployed, the Associated Press reported.
A joint military-civilian task force including some of the nation's top mental health experts has been investigating military suicides for a couple years, military officials said. The group will unveil its findings in 2014, and has yet to pinpoint a specific catalyst.
For the previous three years, the number of suicides among active duty and reserve forces has hovered around 300.
The unpopular war in Afghanistan is winding down with the last combat troops scheduled to leave at the end of 2014. But this year has seen record numbers of soldiers being killed by Afghan troops, and there also have been several scandals involving U.S. troop misconduct.
The 2012 active-duty suicide total of 154 through June 3 compares to 130 in the same period last year, an 18 percent increase. And it's more than the 136.2 suicides that the Pentagon had projected for this period based on the trend from 2001-2011. This year's January-May total is up 25 percent from two years ago, and it is 16 percent ahead of the pace for 2009, which ended with the highest yearly total thus far.
Related: Controversial Army policy makes it difficult for soldiers to get service dogs
Suicide totals have exceeded U.S. combat deaths in Afghanistan in earlier periods, including for the full years 2008 and 2009.
The suicide pattern varies over the course of a year, but in each of the past five years the trend through May was a reliable predictor for the full year, according to a chart based on figures provided by the Armed Forces Medical Examiner.
According to one military official, their finding so far is that the problem is "complex … There appears to be no single cause." Most appear to involve domestic issues such as marital problems and money, but it's also clear that combat exposure can exacerbate the problem.
In a "vast majority" of the cases among the 1.4 million active-duty military personnel, the individuals have not have sought help or counseling. "There's still fear among the forces they will be stigmatized if they seek help. We're still trying to change that attitude," the official told NBC News.
Related: Military women and suicide: Home safe but not sound
Jackie Garrick, head of a newly established Defense Suicide Prevention Office at the Pentagon, said in an interview Thursday that the suicide numbers this year are troubling.
"We are very concerned at this point that we are seeing a high number of suicides at a point in time where we were expecting to see a lower number of suicides," she said, adding that the weak U.S. economy may be confounding preventive efforts even as the pace of military deployments eases.
Garrick said experts are still struggling to understand suicidal behavior.
"What makes one person become suicidal and another not is truly an unknown," she said.
Dr. Stephen N. Xenakis, a retired Army brigadier general and a practicing psychiatrist, said the suicides reflect the level of tension as the U.S. eases out of Afghanistan though violence continues.
"It's a sign in general of the stress the Army has been under over the 10 years of war," he said in an interview. "We've seen before that these signs show up even more dramatically when the fighting seems to go down and the Army is returning to garrison."
But Xenakis said he worries that many senior military officers do not grasp the nature of the suicide problem.
Last month, Maj. Gen. Dana J.H. Pittard, commanding general of Fort Bliss in Texas, retracted a blog piece he posted on Jan. 19 in which he called suicide “an absolute selfish act.”
“I am personally fed up with soldiers who are choosing to take their own lives so that others can clean up their mess,” he wrote.
Dennis R. Swanson, a public affairs officer at Fort Bliss, later told msnbc.com that the post was written in an emotional moment after Pittard had attended two memorial services for soldiers who killed themselves, and then learned of a third suicide.
In his retraction, Pittard apologized for his "hurtful statement," which he said was "not in line with the Army's guidance regarding sensitivity to suicide."
"We must continue to do better each and every day, reaching out, encouraging and helping those in need," he wrote.
His remarks drew a public rebuke from the Army, which has the highest number of suicides and called his assertions "clearly wrong." Last week the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, said he disagrees with Pittard "in the strongest possible terms."
The military services have set up confidential telephone hotlines, placed more mental health specialists on the battlefield, added training in stress management, invested more in research on mental health risk and taken other measures.
The Marines established a counseling service dubbed "DStress line," a toll-free number that troubled Marines can call anonymously. They also can use a Marine website to chat online anonymously with a counselor.
The Marines arguably have had the most success recently in lowering their suicide numbers, which are up slightly this year but are roughly in line with levels of the past four years. The Army's numbers also are up slightly. The Air Force has seen a spike, to 32 through June 3 compared to 23 at the same point last year. The Navy is slightly above its 10-year trend line but down a bit from 2011.
As part of its prevention strategy, the Navy has published a list of "truths" about suicide.
"Most suicidal people are not psychotic or insane," it says. "They might be upset, grief-stricken, depressed or despairing."
In a report published in January the Army said the true impact of its prevention programs is unknown.
"What is known is that all Army populations ... are under increased stress after a decade of war," it said, adding that if not for prevention efforts the Army's suicide totals might have been as much as four times as high.
Marine Sgt. Maj. Bryan Battaglia, the senior enlisted adviser to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently issued a video message to all military members in which he noted that suicides "are sadly on the rise."
"From private to general, we shoulder an obligation to look and listen for signs and we stand ready to intervene and assist our follow service member or battle buddy in time of need," Battaglia said.
The suicide numbers began surging in 2006. They soared in 2009 and then leveled off before climbing again this year. The statistics include only active-duty troops, not veterans who returned to civilian life after fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. Nor does the Pentagon's tally include non-mobilized National Guard or Reserve members.
The renewed surge in suicides has caught the attention of Defense Secretary Leon Panetta. Last month he sent an internal memo to the Pentagon's top civilian and military leaders in which he called suicide "one of the most complex and urgent problems" facing the Defense Department, according to a copy provided to the AP.
Panetta touched on one of the most sensitive aspects of the problem: the stigma associated seeking help for mental distress. This is particularly acute in the military.
"We must continue to fight to eliminate the stigma from those with post-traumatic stress and other mental health issues," Panetta wrote, adding that commanders "cannot tolerate any actions that belittle, haze, humiliate or ostracize any individual, especially those who require or are responsibly seeking professional services."
Msnbc.com's Rebecca Ruiz and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Leave a Comment:
You can only pour so much stress into a human being before the nervous system starts to boil. Why is this hard to understand?
The reason is simple...Obama is president.
WW2 troops were deployed with a reasonable expectation that there would not be a country to go home to. These people deliberately enlist for the pay and benefits. Why not compare the horrific stress of this conflict with stress suffered in other wars, such as the Civil War?
Mark Taft you are drinking too much of that mad hatter tea party brew. Cheney/Haliburton and their puppet Bush Placed our troops in harms way for the past 10 years all the while making sinful profits for oil companies and defense contractors.President Obama is drawing down our involvement and still having more success in the field than Bush ever did.Another thing you should chew on If Paul Ryans budget get passed how will Vets fare when instead of a Veterans and Military /military families healthcare system we'll get vouchers. I'm a 20 year Vet of the US Navy and am sick to death of you yellow bellied draft dodger teabaggers tearring down a man whos only crime is being a different color than you. Help out at the Local VA hospital and leave your hate at your klan meeting
Hello folks, killing, maming, and displacing millions of people is not a natural act! When young men and women are forced to committ and view these atrocities of course it is going to adversely affect them. It's surprising more suicides aren't being committed.
Since World War II, 90% of the casualties of war are
unarmed civilians. 1/3 of them children. Our victims have done
nothing to us. From Palestine to Afghanistan to Iraq to Somalia to
wherever our next target may be, their murders are not collateral
damage, they are the nature of modern warfare. They don't hate us
because of our freedoms. They hate us because every day we are
funding and committing crimes against humanity. The so-called "war
on terror" is a cover for our military aggression to gain
control of the resources of western Asia.
This is sending the poor of this country to
kill the poor of those Muslim countries. This is trading blood for
oil. This is genocide, and to most of the world, we are the
terrorists. In these times, remaining silent on our responsibility to
the world and its future is criminal. And in light of our complicity
in the supreme crimes against humanity in Iraq and Afghanistan, and
ongoing violations of the U.N. Charter in International Law, how dare
any American criticize the actions of legitimate resistance to
illegal occupation.
Many of our soldiers don't fight for America,
they fight for their lives and their buddies beside them, because we
put them in a war zone. They're not defending our freedoms, they're
laying the foundation for permanent military bases to defend the
freedoms of Exxon Mobil and British Petroleum.
I’m not asking you to hate war,but to love peace? War, what is it good for, absolutely nothing!
The military has lowered their standards in order to meet enlistment quotas. The Basic Training stress has been reduced also , I guess to make sure that " little troopies feelings do not get hurt". The answer is get people who succeed in Basic Training under severe stress and you will have less suicides (and I don't have a p.h.d). US ARMY 10 years Desert Storm Vet, Alpha Co. 1/41 Inf 2AD(fwd)
There are many tremedously brave men and women in the Armed Forces , but not as many as there were in the 80's and 90's.
Yep, the leftys and homos are about to run into the law of unintended consequences.
They got their way and the good people quit volunteering. I don't blame them I don't want to live cheek to jowl with the homos, either.
With in the next two tears, the draft will have to be reinstated..
Can't tell you how much I will enjoy that leftys and homos drafted, that is as good as it gets.
Uncle John it isn't hard to understand, unless you are an Obama, who has never been there..
I spent 22 months in Viet Nam, it was worth your life to get in my face, about, anything, when I left there.
Basic training for the military has not been shortened. Army Basic training is nine weeks, and when I was in the Marine Corps 15 years ago the Army Basic training was only eight weeks. I joined the Marines because it was 13 weeks and it changed to 11weeks when I was serving (I would not join today and serve with faggots in the open). The ASVAB AFQT at that time was a 31, now you have to score near 50. Simply put: It is the girth in young boys being depleted with every passing generation! The public school system is "pussifying" these young boys and the more sensitive our young, estrogen filled, boys become the less they can handle the rigors of men! As a father of two, I will not encourage my children to serve with service women breast feeding for the cameras to protest women health, homosexuals serving up first kisses after deployment for the cameras, and women in combat roles who try to be men.
Call me names I don't give a sh#*!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the reason these boys aren't the men we expect them to be and it doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to figure it out!
"Puzzles Officials"??? Is this some kind of a JOKE??? These kids have been education dumbed down, certainly Not Stanford, so they cannot logically reason. Typical as Hitler put it: "We teach them WHAT to BELIEVE, Not how to think. This is what the Rommel wants when he Invades Iran and So many Naive Americans "BELIEVE" Him. This is some thing for the Naive Voters of America to think about because if you think putting Rommel and his cronies in the whiteHouse is gonna' create jobs, prosperity, and "We're In The Money" Think Again; Romney loves Romney and his seed not you "lowlifes", as Rommel REALLY thinks of you; Our Country is MISSING A LOT OF MONEY From OUR US Treasury and You KNOW who has it?? Right!!! the 1-8%ers aka Rommels pals and the Corporations who do not pay any decent taxes. Now Try THIS ONE on for size!!!!!!!about the willard, like The Donald, Like The Gangrene: IN 1966 during the Viet Nam war, Rommel aka Rommney, attended Stanford University in California and while hundreds-of-thousands of young Americans across the nation were protesting the war and the ever-expanding military draft, Willard was PARTICIPATING in A PRO DRAFT Demonstration to SUPPORT YOUNG AMERICANS TO FIGHT AND DIE in South East Asia. While Romney's classmates were protesting a test designed to help authorities decide who was eligible for the draft, he joined 150 other conservatives to show their support for expanding the draft. And Rommel HAS PLANS For THE INVASION OF IRAN!!!!!!! Anbody, ANYBODY, ANYBODY!!! Considering putting The Rommel in the Tank Commander's seat had better seek help with a Competent Psychiatrist. Who do YOU think COOKED UP $4.00+ p/g of gas and oil?
Now PhantomBeast KNOWS There are many many Planted RepublicanCrimeCartelShills and Moles here so it will not surprise PB if one of these miscreants blasts away. BUT! The truth is the truth about your master Count Dracula and he is gonna' hook up with Christy!!!! EGADZ!!!!Straight Out Of a Hollywood Horror Movie!!!! Dracula and Goring controlling America!!!!
Here is What IS: Rommel is War, poverty and Death. You put Rommel and his george bush cabinet in the WhiteHouse Your gonna' get what you asked for..............
When I was in Navy boot camp, we had numerous suicide attempts the first three weeks. Many guys come into the Navy instead of going to jail/prison. Many have serious problems which are NOT caused by being in the military. The socio-economic level of the enlisted men in bootcamp is much lower overall than the US population.MSNBC is just looking for something to fill space, when the actual cause is already known to Military psychologists. I dealt w/them all the time, and unfortunately there are men who have psychoses and can last for months w/o medication, but eventually they either 'act out inappropriately' or are forced to see an MD for medication, then released from active duty.
It's a no wonder these troops are commiting suicide. They do not want to kill anyone most of them. Some have seen so much bloodshed and despair with no hope, children being murdered innocent people. troops being killed. They see no other way out. Some of this is psychosis, Deep deepression. Nothing to look forward to. No hope. People living in poverty. How would anyone see those little kids eyes with no hope in them. Sadness and darkness
Its very sad that suicides occur at all - those who enter military service
do so with hopes fo contributing something to our common good.
More than anything the use of military power and those who provide it
(defense contractors & the politicians to who support them) have used
foreign policy and the fiction of fear and international terrorism to justify
bloated defense budgets and a conversion to a police state mentality. Somewhere
along the way Americans have lost it - what the government is doing in the name
liberty and ecnomic freedom has only relavance to the so-called 1% s - the
rest are screwed which they'll only realize when its too damn late to matter.
Archie M (aka Bunker) "With in the next two tears, the draft will have to be reinstated.."
Freudian slip or are you weeping 2 tears?
"Can't tell you how much I will enjoy that leftys and homos drafted, that is as good as it gets"
Ok. Then can you tell me how much you'll enjoy that righties and heterosexuals will be drafted too? How about you just enlist yourself and come back and tell us how much you enjoy it then? And by the way, if "that is really as good as it gets" no wonder people consider suicide.
I have been reading some of the comments about this terrible occurance with our young troops. This is not a subject to politicised or to blame anyone. What is needed is compassion and sympathy for the families of these unfortunate troops who took their life. This problem is escalating but has been happening to other vets as well. If you have never been in combat to experience the stress and emotional upheaval you will never understand what combat troops feel or keep inside. Those unfeeling comments only help to make the troops feel that much more pain and worthless. I would never try to infringe on anyone right to free speach, which is what we vets fight for, I would just say to think about what you are saying and if it is relavent and not harmful.
Hey sunshine, the righties are in the miltary now, lefty dweeb, they are always the ones that volunteer, it is the lefty and homos that sit on the blogs Because, "the homos are not being treated fairly" There probably hasn't been a lefty or homo in the military since the draft was stopped.
Already did lefty dweeb, 6 years in the Corps, left 10 inches of my right leg and foot in Nam., You have to admit that when leftys and homos commit suicide, it's no loss.
There are no jobs for these individuals.
They come back from a very disciplined and daily oriented life to basically being cast astray with no guidance.
Add on top of that PTS and it's a recipe for depression and disaster.
Archie you are not the only one to have left a part of yourself in Viet Nam. It was only after years of pain and heartache and counseling to be able to deal with it and not be ignorantly angry about it. Try it!!
@TrustVerify...agree war/killing etc is not natural. This article also says some suicides had never been deployed. The source for this article doesn't mention that 40% may be linked to combat in Iraq...but, "nearly a third never saw combat." Side effects from anti-depressants and substance abuse (plus even a little alcohol)can also lead to suicide. PTSD is horribly real, as is the crummy job market. And anyone who knows active duty military or recent vets has probably heard of the not uncommon substance abuse among lower ranks, where the majority of the suicides are.
To verify with better/clearer stats, here is a link: http://healthfinder.gov/news/newsstory.aspx?Docid=662537
A GREAT LIFELINE FOR VETS suicide hotline for vets and their families: 888-777-4443
from nvf.org , National Veterans Foundation. Great website, great service for those who served/serve and their families.
Archie Murter:
...I can't even begin to express how uninformed this statement is. I mean... is actually reading the news a new thing for you, or something? How could a person possibly not know about there having been gay people in the military?
Wow. Republicans are really vile, hateful scum, aren't they?
This isn't Obama's fault - you fools! Romney never served in the military either and neither have his 5 healthy sons. Blame the folks that got us into this mess.
Horse crap Bill. I served in the US Army 20 years, 80s and 90s. I was also on a National Guard Reintegration Team as an Army contractor after I retired. These young soldiers are as good as I've ever seen, perhaps better. Multiple deployments, divorce rate at about 90%, high unemployment for Guardsmen and Reservists between deployments and Active Duty when they ETS. I'm surprised we don't have an even higher rate.Perhaps you should get to know these young soldiers before you judge them too harshly. obviously you don't know them or you wouldn't have made that comment.
I thank every soldier for their service. These young men and women signed up to help others. It is very difficult when that help is not answered with accessible VA medical care; I know of a vet who can't get to a dentist. If you think that chronic pain won't cause stress, think again.
About PTSD: Combat is one of the causes, as is being a victim of violent crime at home. There are too many facing PTSD these days. In WWII it was called "shell shock," and many died of it, or at least were given honorable discharges for it. According to studies (see Kramer, the Dr. who wrote about prozac), if a person has ever experienced serious depression, a major life setback will trigger the depression again much faster than for a person who never experienced depression. Therefore, a short-term financial setback normally might stress a family but they could find a solution with a little help, but in a person with PTSD, they could be triggered into such a deep depression that they cannot find or see the help they need, and they could rapidly spiral down.
Not to be political, but please folks, consider when you vote, who will try to add jobs and how: by either expecting people to help themselves (which won't work for PTSD sufferers), or trying to fund jobs? The simplest act of voting for candidates that provide jobs might save lives.
As an OIF Veteran who was a not so young Soldier (I enlisted in the Army at 43) in the late '00's after being a young Sailor (I enlisted in the Navy three weeks after I turned 18) in the '80's, I agree and disagree with your post,Ol_Doc. There were some fine Soldiers and Senior NCO's in the Army, but there were plenty of lifers who performed their last day of work the last day they were an E-4, something I strongly disagreed with (I believe in being a WORKING supervisor and in leading by example, which is leading from the front IMO) and am glad to be away from now (as a Civilian).
As far as the article, I am sorry to hear this and hope our Military leaders will do everything they can to get this unacceptable number down !!
They are killing themselves because they go join, believing they are fighting for a good cause, only to find out they were bull-@!$%#ted the whole way. They then realize their error and have no way out but Leavenworth Prison. They say screw that and kill themselves.
They kill themselves because they realize they cannot change humanities atrocities as one person. That includes there own humanity.
War is a disgusting ugly brown stained mark on humanity... always has been always will be.
Remove from the troops any national pride or any religious dignity and hire mercenaries and there might be a problem. Reinstate the draft and accurately reflect a cross section of our society in our military.
Lilian, you want to draft people into the Armed Forces who do not want to be there? Brilliant suggestion, do you have a solution for the US Economy and cold fusion also?
Draft got us out of Vietnam, could work today.
Agreed restart the draft, I want the lefty handouters in the military, I want to see if any of them come back.
To Archie
I just got out of the Marine Corps after having served five years (2005-2010), with two deployments to Iraq. There were gays when I went in (just not openly), and many lefties (what 'normal' people call liberals). There were some gay people in my unit, most people never knew; and if they had, it would have made no difference, they were professionals at all times, just like most 'Hetero' service members(all drug pops, UA and attempted suicides we had were all Hetero by the way). I would consider myself to be Independent. I do not believe in either party to be honest. They are one in the same, when you get to the bare bones of it.
Archie Murter - I think it would be even more interesting to watch the right-wing, neoconservative chicken hawks in a uniform.
lilian 101, you have no idea what so ever what you are talking about.
Ol_Doc...
Yep. I want to see a guy in a suit put on a uniform, shut up for five minutes and get his hands dirty.
When I served in a forward infantry unit no one discussed politics. It just doesn't matter when you are deployed (you're a little more concerned about stepping on a landmine or getting shot in the face).
The reason for the suicides is a combination of the reasons given in the posts above. Some can't handle it because they are not prepared for the reality of combat. Some can't handle it because modern warfare is a dirty business (this isn't like World War II where the enemy posed a significant threat to the United States as a nation). Some can't handle it because Army policies (I don't know much about the others) have become ridiculous. I have nothing against gays or women in the military (there were gays in my unit, no one cared and no talked about it), but when you politicize the military, an organization where politics can get people killed, you add greater stress to an already stressed force.
The big problem is that most Americans no longer understand what makes the military work. Strong leadership, a strong NCO corp, discipline, hard work and focus. Even when you have all of those things, it is a hard business.
So what happened - leadership (officer corp) has been eroded as many leave for lucrative defense sector jobs. The ones that remain are all trying to get promotions (and away from combat). The NCO corp has never had a chance to develop because everyone has been at war for the last decade. The older guys all transitioned out and the younger guys are probably hoping to god they can get out of there.
Its because they're sick of being deployed for 18 of every 24 months and damn sick of getting shot at and blown up!!! Lets get our people out of afghanistan!! its way worse than vietnam was!! watch the movie 'restrepo' and you'll see whats really going on !!!!
Exactly Michael, Restrepo should be watched by every single American.
Air Force Vet and mother of a Combat Soldier...HOOAH!!!
Another good one is a documentary entitled "This is War, Memories of Iraq" It's a first hand account of the 2/162 Inf Bn deployment 2004-2005.
I really get tired of older vets badmouthing OEF/OIF vets like somehow they aren't as good. Try 6 deployments to combat, divorce after the second, unemployment as a NG or Reserve soldier between deployments, estrangement from your kids. I'm not justifying the act of suicide but try living with that for the last 10 years.
A lot of young soldiers have known nothing but war since they graduated high school. Among NG and Reserves there's a term "deployment bums". After deploying a couple of times and coming home to a broken family and unemployment it isn't long before you realize you're better off in-country. At least you know what to expect. So many of them work whatever jobs they can find, try to get on temporary Title 32 orders at the Armory and wait for the next rotation. I'm not speaking from personal experience, I'm speaking as a former member of a NG Reintegration Team and a retired REMF.
Vets, let's hear from you. You know what going on, and what you're talking about. Peace to all that have and are serving.
Dahly-1755482:
This is not new. This is coming out into the open because of increased pressure from parents and advocates. I served in the military for 23 years and suicides were common on major bases. It was kept as quiet as possible from the press. When members complain about stress or ask to speak to a therapist or even the unit/base chaplain they are met with immediate criticism and are ostracised. Service members often suffer in silence for fear of the treatment they will receive from fellow members and especially OIC's and Commanders.
It takes a kick-@ss macho personality to even make it through boot camp. Then these tough guys (and girls) see, hear and do things I cannot even bear to imagine. They live in an alpha environment. But they are still just people; just kids, in many cases. And inside every last one of them is a scared little kid who cannot believe what they just survived. It's time to put aside the bullsh!t tough-it-out attitudes, and stop bullying and belittling people when they need to talk. The only decent thing the armed services can do at this point is to make it mandatory to receive counseling.
When I was in the Marines, fighting in Nam, I got a letter from a guy who was supposedly a "friend", telling me that he had found my fiance to be a really great "piece of a$$". There I was, going thru hell to begin with, serving my country, with all kinds of dirtbags yelling "hell no I won't go", movie stars siding in with the enemy, and then I find out I really had nothing to go home to. I gave suicide serious thought, but talked to a couple of friends who helped me to understand that she really wasn't worth it, and that I was lucky to find out about her before I got stuck in a failed marriage with her. So here I am almost half a century later, with a good wife, a good life, and glad I had some friends to talk to. But some service people don't talk about that stuff, and keep it bottled up until they crack.
OK. PhantomBeast is saying CLEARLY: These kids do NOT know what this "war" is all about. They have been very very very POORLY Educated and taught What To BELIEVE and NOT How To Think. Aside from the Recruiter and the Army video arcades which HOOKED Them with "Virtual" war Games, They THOUGHT War to be Wondrous, Heroic AND, as they were led to believe, "An All Expense Paid Hunting Trip OF THE BAD GUYS". We Knew Better during Viet Nam and We Knew what was inevitable, which is what will happen here. Our Politicians and 4 Star Clowns were gonna' give the whole show away, WHICH THEY DID. And to get out, we Cut and Ran; A Smart Move, IN THE END. That is what will occur here. FOR the TWO, Rommel and Christy aka Count Dracula and Hermann Goring, It is an EXPEDIENT Political Oppty. As their Bosses, The republicanCrimeCartelCorporationSoldiers Count the Billions While Young Men and Women's Blood soaks into the ground. Bob Dylan "Now You Masters Of War" Listen to it via you tube and You'll Catch On. As a VietNam vet I see what is coming down the line. It can be STOPPED. First off, DONOT vote in Rommel and Goring, with them WAR is OnGoing ESP an IRAN Invasion. Secondly, with Prez O, Who has VERY SERIOUSLY MESSED UP Lately, There is a chance he will do something heroic for America WHEN He is elected for a second term. With Rommel and Goring? War, Poverty, Death and very Possibly A New ARMED American Revolution Like The French Revolution in 1789. HEY!! Maybe that is SUPPOSED To Happen!!!!
Phantom, as a retired military guy myself, you scare the devil out of me. You are so one sided, you can't see the forest for the trees.
There is more going on here than even your lopsided thinking can begin to perceive. A couple of posts have mentioned clues regarding the possible causes, such as an ignorant electorate, lack of support at home, a non-supportive political structure at home, a military senior leadership so out of touch with the real problems in the trenches, a lack of a real future, and non-stop deployments to every blasted little new hotspot in the world. We are NOT the world's police force, as ALL our political leaders seem to think we are. Our troops are trained to fight wars, not be civil police forces, especially in foreign countries.
Phantom
I agree with your post. But why mention the French Revolution instead of our own? I remember we were armed against the British. Unless I have my history mixed up.
Yes, there are multiple causes. Suicides are increasing in all segments of population. The conditions at the armed forces, add various stressfull items, to the numerous ones, faced by all. Please consider some: the unwillingness of the powerfull vested interests to allow the knowledge available, to cure cancer, aids, heart disease, but all diseases could be mentioned, and also include suicide. If you want details, email us at: cancer.cure@live.com
The situation I was most afraid of at the end of my time in Vietnam was going back to the States and the life of a soldier in the stateside Army. After flying combat missions that meant little supervision and a freedom not available to stateside soldiers would have been unbearable. So, I extended for six months to get out of the service at the end of my tour. I had plenty of problems with civilian life and 22 years later ended up in a PTSD program, I'm not sure I would have survived life in the military in garrison.
I agree. I found the time spent in garrison to be worse then deployments; oddly enough.
Same here. I would rather be on a battlefield than in a formation.
I wonder about the possibility of a certain proportion of enlistees having a predisposition towords suicide: that maybe the original goal for some was death by war. I knew a soldier who was killed in Iraq that I have suspected wanted his life to end that way.
As stupid as this may sound, the military bans smoking and discourages alcohol and substitutes excessive exercise as the cure for stress relief. You're out in the field, coping with sniper fire and IUD's, you bet, give me a smoke, followed by a stiff one after duty hours. What do you think went on in Vietnam, WWII, Korea? They're all up in your credit and home life more than ever.
What other stress relieve programs do they offer?
They added having to live cheek to jowl with the homos, they watched as all of the homos were placed in non combatant positions because they were afraid of what would happen if they sent the homos to combat positions.
That's what I've been saying for over five years. Bring these poor kids home. No booze? No pot? No short-time? What kind of a war is that, anyway? A soldier needs to do more than just fight and wait to fight, or he's got nothing to fight for. When you're 19 and all you've ever known was home and school, there's not much in the way of an anchor to your life, back in the world. It fades fast. It becomes a dreamlike memory.Then all you have to look forward to is a plane back to fantasyland some time in the distant future, or your next opportunity to get wasted and chase tail. They've taken that second one away. It's no wonder these kids are losing it.
There have always been gays in the military. I knew of 2 in my unit 40 years ago. They just didn't let their guard down around you, unless they were sure you didn't give a damn. That's not it.
I keep hearing that, I spent 6 years in the Corps, didn't see a one.
I would never have known, if one of them wasn't a galpal of a WAC I dated.
You had your eyes closed.
Archie Murter: Look in the mirror.
Archie, you must think all gay men are obvious, the vast majority of them are not & act no differently than heterosexual men. I bet you know & interact with gay men all the time & never realize it, you bigoted piece of chit.
I knew at least one gay man in every unit I was ever in. I served mostly in forward infantry units, but also spent some time in a forward support battalion. It was in the support battalion (rear bitches) where they actually cared about that kind of stuff. In the forward infantry units, no one cared at all.
The per capita rate of military suicides are less than the general population, including the age demographics. Yes, the problem is a serious news item but this falls back to the human and financial cost of carrying out the U.S. role as global police.
Couldn't these suicidal soldiers fear being discharged as much as any stigma? Losing your job, that sense of identity, of belonging, often providing for a family, would seem to be a huge barrier to seeking treatment.
Lol, never been in the military, have you?
I have mixed emotions when it comes to this because i had to deal with this my self.Please do not give him a physiologist who has not been threw the same experience. Because the physiologist the VA had me talk to i wanted to smack in the face everyday because he did not have a clue . I found out on my own the more i had talk to vets from Vietnam the more they understood me. I got better with time, and i am still dealing with issues but the list goes on.When people came back i gave them names and numbers for people to talk too, people who understood them and where they were coming from.Because if you have never been to point A or B how can you tell me how to get to C.
you are perfectly right! I am sure the Military & Co. know the reasons, but "officially" they don't.
Ordinary people call HEROES the returning soldiers, but being on war-ground for 50+ hrs without rest, taking pills given to you by your superior, and go kill women and children it might not be so heroic. And the usual debriefing.............
You make a very excellent point! They don't need doctors who don't know squat about squat they need others to talk to. Ones who have been there and understand how make their way out of the emotional hardship. Just because you have a degree in Mind fuc sciences doesn't make you knowledgeable in the field.
I am a military wife. While I've never been deployed, I have talked with my husband about his deployments. I've also talked with other wives and soldiers and have heard of many of their experiences. Deployment takes it's toll on even the most resiliant of men. There are so many reasons that a soldier may resort to suicide, besides what they've seen during depolyments. I wish that we would stop fighting everyone else's battles and focus on taking care of our own country. I have a sticker that I keep on my wallet, it says "all gave some, some gave all". That was a popular quote in the WWII era - back then, it was true. Not anymore. Less that 1% of Americans serve in the military (all branches combined). The rest of the country, for the most part, doesn't even give it (deployments, the war, military life, etc...) a second thought. There are no rations like in WWII, you don't go through town and notice that all of the men are gone, back then everyone felt it. I'm not saying that we should draft, I'm just saying that more people should do more, volunteer, send care packages, cards, etc... Consider military issues when voting. The cut funding for spouses schooling and nobody really cares or notices, except us. Military pay and benefits should be the last thing to be cut. If it wasn't for our soldiers, we wouldn't be here.
The un-sung heroes: military spouses. I thank you, ily77, for supporting the man who keeps my free speech flowing. You're so right, too; people should do more. There are so many ways, and many of them only take minutes. One great way is through operationpaperback.org. They are a grass-roots organization dedicated to serving those who serve our country.
Suicide in the military is just a great story line. People want us to get out of the wars we started and so everybody can sweat and stew about "the problem". DOD and especially the Army jump to and loudly declare that it has recognized "the problem" and is seen to be serious by creating programs and spending big money for staffing and outreach programs. HOWEVER, I have seen no data to suggest the service members are committing suicide at statistically significant higher rates than are civilians. The Army data disputes repeated deployments are the cause, or even a factor in many cases, as the majority of suicides never went to war once, let alone twice or even directly faced a combat tour. Look at the rates of teenage suicides. Is it true that part of the problem is greater reporting of deaths as suicide rather than "accident" or unknown causes? Not too long ago, there was great reluctance to tag a death as suicide.
So I don't know the scope, cause or nature of "the problem" and it seems the military is having a hard time figuring that all out. I do know that the General who slammed suicides as selfish and "leaving it all to others to clean up the mess" spoke for many people who have suffered through or had to "clean up" after a suicide. But then, saying such a thing is non-PC and the condemnation of this senior officer for expressing his view seems counter to the idea of encouraging service members to expose their feelings by seeking help. And perhaps somebody of a certain maturity or with familial obligations would be deterred by thinking about what the General said.
When your commander-in-chief is a dimwit narcissist it is time to get out. How can the nation permit the US Military be led by a person who lacks all leadership skills! He couldn't lead a dung beetle to his own dump!
Jamie...could you be anymore of a misinformed douchebag or is it just your mantra to blame Obama for everything? Judging from the pathetic "everything is Obama's fault" diatribe you continuously post on here I'm guessing both. Do you EVER take the time to dig into the details before you open up your pie hole?
This country has a sore history of not taking care of combat vets when they return to home. I've been through 4 administrations during my military tenure (both active and reserve duty) and I can tell you from first hand experience that it hasn't changed one single bit.
DSP CAPT/USNR - Desert Storm Combat Veteran and Bronze Star (V) recipient.
Welll dippo, I'm a former marine, who left 10inches of his right leg and foot in Viet Nam ,holder of the Silver star and Navy cross and I agree with Jamie, you should have joined the military instead of the fing Navy..
LOL. I thought Marines were just Navy, that don't dress as pretty.
Jamie Alverez, you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Suicides have been a problem in the Army long before President Obama came along. Most soldiers don't care (and many don't even know) what political party the President belongs to. I served 20 years in the Army, most of it during peacetime, and suicides were an issue the entire time. People that have never been in the Army don't understand what it is like. Some people can adjust to it and thrive, others simply can't.
Archie Bunker...you are no more of a combat vet than I am a ballet dancer. No combat vet would talk to another one (especially a senior officer) in such a disresptful manner. Get lost poser.
Id kill myself too if I had to work for this sh*t country and be a pawn for the as$clowns that run it.
Eric...you're more than welcome to leave this "sh*t country" if you don't like it. Nobody is forcing you to stay here.
There will be no better place to go if our Socialist/Communist president gets re-elected. This is the greatest country on earth (for now), but if he wins another term he is going to continue destroying the constitution and continue to take us down the same failed socialist road as Europe. There will be NO better place left on earth to escape to. Obama needs to go and we need to bring our troops home to take care of our own borders. Terrorists are pouring over our borders and with Obama appointing muslim brotherhood people to positions within the Dept of Homeland Security we are in big trouble.
Against Union Thievery
Really? Vote for the other guy, you know, the fascist and you can forget about bringing our troops home. And if they do come home it will be to prepare for their deployment to Iran, or some other sh!thole country. Got to keep those General Dynamics, Halliburton, Colt and Rockwell bucks roll'in in!
don't understand why?well theres one reason! lets take these clowns that don't understand and send them into harm's way over and over again and see then if they can figure it out!This great country has a history of returning vets being treated like outcast's, ask any vietnam vet!lets try something new,treat these people as tho thier service is a debt that can never be repaid fully! billions for war,nickles and dimes to treat and help our vet's.
There must be some sort of morale problems knowing their world class high-tech training keeps getting beaten by handfuls of thugs with pop guns who hang out in mountain caves.
really?
the government is suprized and taken back?
rofl i find that hard to believe
more like the government who is making these soldiers sick just doesnt want to take responcibility for their actions
what does one learn when they join the forces?
how to kill others just like yourself!!!
this is not a natural state of mind for 95% of recruits
but its what is taught and taught hard
quote: kill or be killed
what else does one do when dropped in a war zone with enemy combantants trying to kill you
you stop with common sence and go for a mad state of mind so you can override your common sence
in which is the mistake made by the government
forceing others to kill in the name of USA
and the government is puzzled ?
what a lieing bunch of idiots
sadsadsad
every politician wants his/her name in history
but they never take responcibility in their actions
unless it turns out good
but bad actions
not me no never
what does one learn when joining the forces? how to kill others like yourself!!
Sorry to disappoint , but I learned how to work as part of a team, how to push myself to my potential and how to prevail in the most difficult of circumstances. It's easy to kill people if you're so inclined or if they force your hand, but far harder to be part of keeping potentially explosive situations from becoming deadly ones (which is what the majority of our Soldiers do).
My son is in the US Infantry and I can attest to the fact that the Army treats these guys like crap. he has been to Iraq 14 months and Afghanistan 12 months and is told by his superiors that he is one of the best soldiers they have and yet they treat him like crap....meaning things like giving these kids a date for when they can go on leave then changing it at the last min for some stupid reason. Do you know what stress that is???? They have to change their airfare, their family has to change all it's plans etc...and this is just a very small thing to most but it's a big deal to a soldier who has not seen his family in 8-9 months. how about when they were in Iraq in 140 degree heat they were told to go outside with all their gear on and do pushups till they passed out just because the TL was bored. I heard about one kid that suffered brain damage from this!.....Couple this kind of treatment with being around explosions, seeing your buddy get blown up even seeing the enemy getting blown up, months and months away for your family, living with flight or fight everyday, extensions of deployments, family problems, money problems....well you get the picture.
Now he knew going in to this that it was no bed of roses but it is no holly wood movie either. I am very proud of my son that he is still hanging in there and still performing top notch in his job even though d/t his weight he has NOT been promoted in 3 years. ( He lifts weights and so has a lot of muscle).......I know he is suffering from PTSD and after he got back from Afghanistan he met a girl and asked her to marry him ( He had been skyping her for a year) and she said yes...well he was on the top of the world..bought her an expensive ring took her on several vacations and when the money ran out she dropped him like a led balloon and kept the ring. Now with his PTSD he is also depressed even though he will not talk about it. Part of the reason she broke up with him though was due to one on my relatives wives said something to the family about her that was told to her in confidence...something that his GF did not want her "new family" to know and that started the whole downward spiral. It was a terrible mess and I felt so bad for my son that this whole thing got so screwed up because of gossip.Now as a mother do I worry that he can be pushed beyond help...Yes...I do worry..everyday I worry.. But what is a mother to do? if I try talking to him he get's irritated. If I say anything to his command , he'll get's labeled a psych case. So all I can do is pray and hope that he get's out of the Army soon and then he can go to college and get on with his life.
beanne Welcome to the U.S. Military! That is why the directionless join. The rich well counseled kids join the Ivy league because every generation breeds suckers into the military! Yes, I served for college money because we were poor! I am saving money for my two children so they don't have to be treated like this to get a college education.
Do you suppose it has anything to do, with fighting a war, twit?
Wars don't run on schedules.
I will pray for your son also. I think it is like trying to transplant a pine tree, you can't. The taproot can't be disturbed. Remind him of who he is and how important he is to the people that love him and that he has more control over his future than his past.(through your actions not words) He has to put himself first...It shouldn't be God and Country it should be God, self, country. I think they give all the good within themselves away and lose hope. God bless them all.
Lying to and expecting soldiers to be heartless weapons for corporate growth might have something to do with it.
Maj.Gen.Dana Pittard should be busted to PVT and put on the front lines.
And they don't know why????? Hmmnnn...maybe it's this war, military force reductions that's shoving these soldiers into continuous combat rotations that are not giving them the time to calm down the stress and anxiety of PTSD. They are leaving their families and homes to often and more than should be required of them, then come back to try to be "normal." Also, instead of helping these airmen, marines soldiers & sailors, the majority of their treatment consists of being put on anxiety and anti-depressant medications. I saw it first hand. That is not the answer of how to take care of our sons and daughters. Also, this not the way these men and women want to live their lives. The AFG war is not worth it!!!
A friend of mine rants that the feminization of America is causing a lot of problems even for girls. His view is that kids are being brought up to be too sensitive and scared. I was there recently when friend told his 13 year old son to walk home -4 blocks away-and the kid said "it's too dangerous." This is a small city in N.Y.S. Between the media, school and their mothers he and his friends are afraid to be out of their parents sight for more than a couple of minutes. Then 5 years or less later they might go to another country and have to kill and witness killing in a constantly dangerous environment? I'm surprised the rate hasn't gone up more than it has. Or, like my father said to me when he was a Colonal/Army and I was going to recruitment, "don't believe anything they tell you." "They will lie to you."
When the judge says, "one year jail or join the military" the answer is obvious. The military ends up with the problem. Agreed, no one wants the draft but in order to increase the quality of the military, a draft would allow a selection process.
I am sure the powers that be know the primary reason behind the rise in suicides. Refusing to openly discuss the problem only makes matters worse.
The gung-ho attitude only works for certain men.
They quit doing that a long time ago.
The war is winding down and troops will be home by 2025. I mean come on, the stinking politicians have been promising mission accomplished since the coward chimp dubya stood on the aircraft carrier to say mission was over.
And war? What friggin war? It was a slaughter of Iraq people and people in Afghanistan. Let's get serious. Who the hell do they think they are lying to,....a bunch of dumb sheep that will believe anything.
Kick odumbo out of office, and vote in Ron Paul. Or you can vote for the cult member romney and watch america go in the toilet. Your choice.
None of the above.