This proves in spades that Scott Walker was right to do everything he did. IL. is a fiscal disaster area, yet the teachers don't want to do their part. How typical.

So much for teachers actually caring about the children right?

cheap shot

Sounds to me like it's just a high price day care that the tax payer pay for anyways. Does it matter if the students miss out on a few days of school?

Why is it that the Chinese who have a one Billion more people than we do can have a better education system: Better teachers who have respect from their students/parents, a salary than is in line in their educational system and an honor system that rewards the best teachers. Students in China have to compete for their classroom seat every year or be dropped. Their schools are not pretty to look at, have no air conditioning, none of the luxuries our children have and yet the Chinese children out score us every year easily. You can't buy teacher/student commitment, you have it or you don't-- the biggest slice of the of the states funding goes to the school system and they always want more—so what are the schools success rate..

Says the person who doesn't even know that CPS is not a "district".....I have a daughter in a Magnate School in CPS and trust me, it is BETTER than ANYTHING where you are. She is reading and writing at two grade levels above her age, thanks to the teachers who TAUGHT her. She has access to a gifted program and wonderful supplements like iPads and computers in the room.

I will GLADLY pay for a pay raise for these excellent teachers.

Tigerboy you're ridiculous. If we did what 99% of the world do with their underperforming students we'd be crushing their scores. In most of the world if you're underperforming in 5th grade you are shuffled into a trade school instead of being afforded the opportunity to continue your complete education in a middle/high school.

The teachers (at least in my state) have been punched to the point of needing to fight back. A teacher in a normal year takes a 1.5-2% raise. That is supposed to be the case regardless of the economy. 4 years ago when the economy was gangbusters I was getting 15-20% raises with 15-25% bonuses (accounting 4 year degree). The teachers at that time took 2%. Why now when the economy is down and people are taking less raises should the teachers not get their 2%. I'd love to hear your ECONOMIC argument as to why a group of people who have a college degree and are certified to teach are treated as if they work as unskilled laborers making lollipops in a 3rd world country.

Do I think 24% makes any sense: no, but I also don't know what kind of givebacks they've agreed to over the last few years in terms of taking pay cuts just because the government didn't plan to have lower revenues in the good times.

@ChicagoT wait did you say EXCELLENT? Did I read that right? In Chicago? Are you serious? Wow. I am just shocked.

Until teachers agree to merit based pay and allowing under-performing teachers to be fired, I'm against any pay raises. We need to do what's right for the kids - and part of that means ensuring we have the best teachers.

@basedrum777- How do you expect Chicago or even the state to pay for a raise? Oh I know, let's raise taxes on everyone in the district. Won't most of the teachers live in that district? This is called an inflationary spiral. As taxes are increased, the cost of living rises. As the cost of living rises, people demand higher compensation to keep their present purchasing power. As employees are paid more, the cost of doing business increases. When that happens, the business must raise its prices to continue to stay in business, which raises the cost of living again. Repeat from demanding higher wages.

You have an accounting degree so you should already know this.

How about breaking the teachers union and continue to pay the teachers what they are currently making. When you add back in the union dues, the teachers will get that raise they want.

This is why charter schools are a much better deal for everyone involved. Teachers are paid what they are worth, and you aren't stuck with ineffective tenured teachers that you can't get rid of.

Didymus: do you live in that district to know whether they have great schools? I know teachers in NJ are being attacked left and right and we have some of the best schools in the nation by every statistic available. I think its also worth noting that the schools and jurisdictions which pay the most tend to have the best scores in those reviews.

Todd: Why should the teachers be stuck being the only people in the state NOT getting a raise? Pricing are going to rise for the teachers regardless if THEY"RE THE ONLY ONE NOT GETTING A RAISE. What makes you think the world will suddenly forgo raises because teachers do???? There are plenty of times when the state could have had surplus if thy didn't spend like drunken sailors. If you want to bitch about teachers getting a raise then you should have been arguing at the same time that you shouldn't have gotten a signficant raise when the economy was great because teachers at the time were taking 1-2-3%.

Charter schools require ZERO in the way of background checks and certification to be a teacher. In some of them in our state janitors are teaching math classes due to lack of candidates. I'm sure you want your kid taught by people who used to be janitors and very well could be pedofiles.

How would merit based pay work for special education teachers?

basedrum777,

Directly from the CPS, the average teacher salary is $74,839 per year. That's a pretty good gig for the area. During the last 3 years, many private companies had pay freezes in effect while the public employees continued receiving their raises (even 1-2-3% was better than most).

Says the person who doesn't even know that CPS is not a "district".....I have a daughter in a Magnate School in CPS and trust me, it is BETTER than ANYTHING where you are. She is reading and writing at two grade levels above her age, thanks to the teachers who TAUGHT her. She has access to a gifted program and wonderful supplements like iPads and computers in the room.

I will GLADLY pay for a pay raise for these excellent teachers.

Which union are you in?

Todd: Why should the teachers be stuck being the only people in the state NOT getting a raise?

What planet do you live on? Some people have gone years without any raise, your story about getting a 15-20% raise every year and an equal bonus was adorable, but it is also quite clear that you are public sector and dont know anything about the real world.

Armurray,

I don't disagree that 1-2-3% is good when the economy is going bad. But what about when the economy was good? I was getting 10-15-20% raises when my company was doing well. I may be somewhat the exception but you're talking about 10% of 75K and 15% of 92k. They're asking for (even using the average) 3% on 75k. AND you're also not factoring in that many salaries in teaching are capped as in my town the MOST a teacher with a masters can make is $110k. That's not that much in a metro area. Its middle class where I live. (and yes i know in some areas that's upper upper middle class including where I'm from).

trudat: not everyone who sees the value of public education is in a union. In my town the residents pass the budget EVERY YEAR because the alternative to a great public school is to pay $25-30k a year to send their kids to a good (not great) private school...

Base, the only people not in public unions that are for public unions have a relative or spouse in a public union. Now go look up your city's school budget, ill bet about 3-5% max of the funds goes to actual education, probably somewhere around 85-90% goes to salaries, pensions and benefits.

Paying teachers more isnt the issue, firing the crap teachers and giving incentives to good teachers is what is required, more pay will just bury the taxpayer in more debt and they arent getting a return on their investment.

No it's about parents feeling insecure in a high tech society and they feel they need to blame everyone that is either smarter than they are, or better off then they are.

They know they won't get anywhere blaming the wealthy, because they all dream of being wealthy (even though they will never get out of their trailer courts or apartments.

So they blame the level above them, the ones that own their houses, are secure in jobs that aren't effected by the economy - which is something they don't understand, except what they see at the pump, grocery store or Wal-mart. They savings is the loose changes found in the washer and stored in some jug.

And after they bring this great country down to a 3rd world nation, then they will feel comfortable because they won't be forced to challage their thought process and their children won't be smarter than they are.

It's time to end this GOP/teahadist Bullcrap and move this country back into leading the future of the world - where it belongs.

The teahadists have done nothing but waste the last four years.

And yes, i work for a local government and make $ 17,000 per year with no benefits - other than I get to take Fridays off.

How could you ever begin to measure the return on investment?

I don't disagree that the structure of the pension is hard to justify but consider it this way: if a teacher was paid what those with comparable educations were paid in the private sector without a pension the jurisdiction would be doing WORSE according to every study ever done on this area. This includes the fact that even when you include benefits (including pensions) private salaries have been outpacing public salaries over the last few years. So basically any government that isn't funding its pension obligations are litterally arguing that they'll figure out a way to weasel out of it even though they're getting the benefits upfront.

basedrum- It's great that you got such huge raises when the economy was good. You must work for a private company that can reduce your pay or lay you off when the economy is bad. The problem with automatic pay raises in a publicly funded organization like CPS is you are stuck giving raises even if you can't afford it.

Use your accounting skills and figure out where the school district can get the money from? No new hires? Cuts in other programs like public housing, EBT, Welfare, ElderCare? Tax increases? Is it fare for the state to get involved at the cost of taxpayer out of that district? I'm not against anyone getting raises, but public employees should be dealt with in a way that the tax payers can stomach.

I'm a federal employee (military) and my wife is a civilian federal employee. Her pay has been frozen for 2 years with no real chance of any more raises for a few years. She makes far less working for the Army that should would in private practice, but she understands that the government shouldn't spend money it doesn't have on automatic pay raises.

It's funny, every charter school I've seen conducts background checks and all teachers must be a college graduate. Some charter schools require masters degrees. We also have a magnate school that students compete to get into and must maintain a B grade is every class to remain in that school. The one in my town has a college rate of over 90%. It's funny, the teachers there don't go on strike or complain about longer hours.

I would be willing to pay much more in school taxes to get more schools like those. But we continue to lower the standard at many public schools to the point that some graduates are functionally illiterate, and we are OK with that. That my friend is a direct result of teachers not teaching, and parents not caring. Give the teachers raises if they deserve it, but don't make it automatic, ever...

During the last 3 years, many private companies had pay freezes in effect while the public employees continued receiving their raises (even 1-2-3% was better than most).

That's not true. Govt employees had their wages frozen back in 2008 after the banks fizzled out. People lost jobs. And they weren't getting any big raises before then.

Have any of you people ever been a teacher? You really think your work hours are confined to the time you spend in a classroom? Do you have any idea what it's like to manage an oversized class of 40 students, most whose parents won't lift a finger to make sure their children are doing their homework?

Chicago has a billion dollars to spend on paramilitary weapons and other kinds of security, but trying to upgrade the educational system beyond adding even more hours for no pay is not worth the effort.

The average teacher in Chicago gets $70,000 yearly? How much should a teacher make? $10 an hour? Do you know how expensive it is to live in Chicago? You can't even qualify for a mortgage on an average house making $70,000 yearly.

I do agree that there are problems with the educational system. But consigning all teachers to an hourly wage is not a solution.

Chicago T, the term is "magnet" school, not "magnate"school. Guess you learned to spell in Chicago public schools.

A 24% raise is ridiculous in this economy. Teachers should be happy they have steady jobs.

Karen Lewis,the communist that is in charge of the teachers union announced last week:" We reject merit based pay." This is why Chicago public schools are among the worst in the nation.

The unions don't care about the kids,only themselves.

Take a Strike Rahm. Break this union once and for all.

Todd,

If the district had planned to spend their money then they would have the money to cover the raises that had been planned and agreed to by the distict. Your argument is that the teachers should bear the brunt of the district mismanaging its funds. You don't even argue that the budget related to the schools should be differentiated from the rest of the budget. I see city administrators in my jurisdiction making more than every teacher in the district. And that's without a degree or skill.

In Chicago only 75% of the teachers at a charter school need to be certified and they have 3 years to get to that level meaning they can continually cycle out the teachers who are not certified to avoid the requirement. (http://incschools.org). Illinois Network of charter Schools

And as I've noted in other posts I think its telling that the states which pay teachers the highest salary have the highest test scores and most schools rated as high performing in school rankings. Maybe you should consider funding the public schools in your jurisdiction so that they do perform up to your standards?

basedrum,

I can tell you haven't been following Chicago or Illinois politics.

Not only does the average teacher in the CPS make about $75k per year, the current pension for retired CPS teachers is over $42k/year. Note that this is average and includes all teachers from K-12 and not administrators.

Illinois is broke because of past negotiations with public unions which includes the teachers. Income taxes in Illinois were increased 50% and corporate taxes increased 66%, but the state is still running a huge deficit.

Congress shouldn't be able to keep giving themselves raises either.....

Todd - if you applied your logic to the military about lowering pay when times get tough, what type of military would we have? I don't believe there has been a single year where the military didn't get at least a 2% raise (I have been out for a couple years and haven't followed it since 2008)

If teachers were the military, they would be getting everything they asked for and even stuff they didn't want - all in the name of Homeland Security....

Well isn't better to spend more on education, then to just breed "cannon fodder"??

I am retired military and there are very damn few fields that don't require a good education and to make rank, require collage degrees.

I have sat on both sides of the bargaining table. If the teachers want a 3% raise, the board would say no. So they ask for a 15% raises and the board offers 3%. Just because the teachers asked for 30% doesn't mean they want it ( oh, I am sure they would take it, if it was offered) and the way the states are attacking pension plans and even raiding public pension plans, I can see why the teachers asked for 30% - but want the board to deal in "good faith" and if the school board wasted their budget on some "mega sports complex" that's the board's problem not the teachers union.

In my state, the public employee's pension plan is self funded, but every year the state keeps trying to raid the billion dollars with promises of "paying it back " don't it doesn't happen.

If the states promised the retirement plans and didn't fund them - that's the state's problem and I would expect a few law suits over "broken contracts" in the future.

And as I've noted in other posts I think its telling that the states which pay teachers the highest salary have the highest test scores and most schools rated as high performing in school rankings. Maybe you should consider funding the public schools in your jurisdiction so that they do perform up to your standards?

That's a product of minorities not being able to afford to live in the tax burdened liberal states, it's the liberals way of keeping the rift raft out i guess, the liberal states tax out the poor and foreigners, then they dont have to worry about everyone not speaking english, real inclusive arent they.

If teachers were the military, they would be getting everything they asked for and even stuff they didn't want - all in the name of Homeland Security....

Theyve always gotten this where they are now.

We tax out the trailer trash too. Why do you think NASCAR is only big in the south? Pay to sit there and watch a bunch of cars go in a circle..... sheez even my cat gets board with that toy.

My daughter is in a top school in Texas. My nephew in a Chicago Public school. I wish my daughter was in CPS. In Texas we have far better facilities. My nephew's school building is over 100 years old. Ours is 15 years old with a top end athletic facilities. We are producing better football, they are producing better students from the middle down.

BlueBurner,

Chicago does not have the cost of living in Santa Clara, CA - the heart of silicone valley, but the teachers in CPS are paid $$8,000 more per year (at the median salary level).

Chicago has to pay these high wages because the union has requirements like to teach in the CPS, the teacher must live within the CPS boundary. This makes it impossible to hire teachers who don't want to live in the city and would prefer to commute - an artificial measure to increase wages.

Trudat: my state (NJ) is one of the most diverse in terms of population in America with foreigners, poor and rich. And its very liberal and it has the 2nd best schools in the nation. Where do you get your ideas?

armurray couldn't you just as easily say that the teachers who live outside of the jurisdiction won't care as much leading to worse teachers?

basedrum777

Tigerboy you're ridiculous. If we did what 99% of the world do with their underperforming students we'd be crushing their scores. In most of the world if you're underperforming in 5th grade you are shuffled into a trade school instead of being afforded the opportunity to continue your complete education in a middle/high school.

The teachers (at least in my state) have been punched to the point of needing to fight back. A teacher in a normal year takes a 1.5-2% raise. That is supposed to be the case regardless of the economy. 4 years ago when the economy was gangbusters I was getting 15-20% raises with 15-25% bonuses (accounting 4 year degree). The teachers at that time took 2%. Why now when the economy is down and people are taking less raises should the teachers not get their 2%. I'd love to hear your ECONOMIC argument as to why a group of people who have a college degree and are certified to teach are treated as if they work as unskilled laborers making lollipops in a 3rd world country.

Do I think 24% makes any sense: no, but I also don't know what kind of givebacks they've agreed to over the last few years in terms of taking pay cuts just because the government didn't plan to have lower revenues in the good times.

I'm sorry, basedrum, but who's ridiculous? You sound like your own brand of ridiculousness. If you think that teachers are the only college educated workers who are underpaid, then think again. Be glad you got a 1.5%-2% raise. Most of us in the private sector haven't had raises of any kind in years, so go cry in your cereal bowl somewhere else. You want an economic argument as to why the teachers shouldn't get a raise? How about this: the money isn't there!?! With a $700 million shortfall, what part of "no money" do you not understand? It's ironic that you claim to have an accounting degree. I have 4 friends who are teachers and none of them have ever received 15-20% raises every year with bonuses. You must be speaking of private schools, not public ones. Either that, or you're making things up. I'd like to hear your ECONOMIC argument as to why taxpayers who haven't received raises because of the economy should pay even more out of their already-too-light pockets to make up for a budget shortfall and give the teachers a 2% raise?? (And let's forget that the teachers are asking for 24%!!) Hint: the whole "teachers are responsible for the next generation's education" argument doesn't apply here. Not only is that a purely emotional argument, but if the teachers cared that much about educating kids, they wouldn't be voting to go on strike--even my public-teacher-union-member friends agree on this. And if you think that making a living wage and giving up raises and bonuses for a few years because the city coffers can't afford it is being treated like "an unskilled worker making lollipops in a 3rd world country", then I'd say that not only do you have a serious flair for the (over)dramatic, but that you've been paid too much already and as a result expect far more than what you should be earning. Having a college degree and a teaching certificate doesn't equal a $150K/year job. If you and your brethren wanted to make that kind of money, you should have chosen a different profession. And that, brings me to my last point: there's not a teacher out there who didn't know what kind of money they would make being an educator before they made that career choice. Give me a break!

You want an economic argument as to why the teachers shouldn't get a raise? How about this: the money isn't there!?! With a $700 million shortfall, what part of "no money" do you not understand?

The only way 'the money isn't there' could be true is if the teachers were being paid 100% of the entire economic capacity of the area.

basedrum777,

I live in the near suburbs of Chicago (next town in fact). I know teachers in my district who would love to work in the CPS but are excluded because of the living requirement even though they live closer to the school than teachers who already work there. You could live 40 miles away and work as long as you live within the CPS, but could live 1 mile from school and be ineligible because you are in a different district.

No other Illinois districts have this requirement.

Al- I didn't join the military for the great pay! I'm eligible to retire any time I want with 23 years and counting, but I still enjoy it, so I'll stay in a bit more. Sure, my retirement plan is pretty good, the benefits too, but I would be willing to take a pay cut if necessary. I've managed my money well and am not living paycheck to paycheck anymore. I wouldn't want to fight next to someone who joined the military for the money only. They will be the first ones to turn and flee when things got rough. Teachers shouldn't be teachers if they are only doing it for the money. Teaching the next generation is a sacred trust and a privilege, just like serving in the military. I'm not saying teachers shouldn't be paid well, I'm just saying that the teachers shouldn't be paid more than the district can afford.

Basedrum- Tax revenues went down and money went away. The citizens of Chicago decide where to spend money, sometimes years before that money is realized. Budgets are planned using estimates and predictions, which are sometimes a little overly optimistic and end up falling short when it's time to pay. It's just a fact of life, and public employees should be no better than private employees. When a business doesn't generate predicted revenues and falls short, costs must be cut or the business goes under. Sometime those costs can be cut through new technology, but mostly it's a reduction in either jobs, pay, or both. That is the sad reality of economics. The federal government is not required to balance its budget, but state governments are. The scary part is that states have been using federal funds to balance their books by allowing some of their sovereignty to pass to the feds. Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it say "Education or School", meaning that education is a state responsibility. Legislation like the "No Child Left Behind" act allowed federal funds to be used to support state education. The Federal Department of Education should be closed for being unconstitutional and all federal education legislation should be repealed. Let the states fund and run their school systems.

Getting rid of the Teachers Union would be a great place to start. Allow teachers to negotiate for their own pay and benefits based on education, experience, and abilities. It's not fair that bad teachers make the same as good teachers, and threatening strikes is akin to extortion. Schools that pay and perform well will attract the best teachers, and under the current union system, there is no incentive to perform above your peers. Teachers in private schools don't have that "security blanket", and therefore try harder because they know their job, pay, and benefits depend on it. Just like a normal employee in a right to work state.

Why would I want to be a teacher and help your kid for peanuts when I can be a stock broker and get paid millions for setting fire to the world.

Yeah....we have our priorities straight.

Football players get paid millions of dollars and sue over concussions - Marines get paid minimum wage and you vote to remove their benefits when they come home.

You people deserve what's coming!

Look at the muslim world, look at Afghanistan and Somalia - that is what an uneducated population does.

ARMURREY- That is so stupid. Why would a district limit access to better teachers? Sounds like good ole' Chicago politics at work there!

Byron- Obviousely the teachers are not being paid 100% of the available economic output of their district. So where would you cut to pay them more? If there is no increase in revenue, and you are already spending everything you have, there can be no increase in spending without paying for that with either additional cuts in other areas, or raising taxes to increase revenue. So I guess Chicago could cut police, fire, and EMS spending to pay teachers more. Considering the shooting sprees that happened last weekend, I don't think Chicago can do that, so I guess you lay off the newest teachers (the ones fresh out of college) to pay the old ones more money?

How do you propose to pay them more?

Todd-651965,

Exactly! That is why I am so concerned about Chicago/Illinois politics moving into the White House!

Trudat: my state (NJ) is one of the most diverse in terms of population in America with foreigners, poor and rich. And its very liberal and it has the 2nd best schools in the nation. Where do you get your ideas?

Do you truly believe NJ has more minorities and non-english speaking than the southern states? Where do you get your ideas?

Just because no one can understand what people from jersey are saying doesnt actually mean they are non-english speaking, they are just kind of ESL.

Tod,

That is how you grow an economy. When you increase the standard of living people by more things which consumes products and drives demand. This in turn leads to higher profits, more jobs, higher wages, and that gets put back into the economy again.

When you do not increase your standard of living or intentionally depress it you enter into a recession when less things are bought, less money is made, jobs are cut, salaries are reduced. The only form of Capitalism that works is Consumerism. A true Capitalist economy cannot exist in this world without creating a massively huge poverty class which collapses the economy through social spending by the Government.

armmurray--you must not live in Chicago. The collar suburbs are even more expensive! Live further out and whatever gains you make are wiped out by time & commuting costs.

Salaries of teachers, police, firepeople aren't the problem, though there are some politicos who are pushing that myth. It's not teachers, police, or govt people who threw this country into a depression. The problem is that some wealthy elected officials want more money for corporate welfare and defense. The problem is that Corporate America recruited millions of illegal immigrants and stuck the bill for their health, education, & welfare benefits to the local govts.

And these wealth elected officials, who increased their wealth while the country was tanking, is doing everything they can to get you to slit your own throats.

"Who needs health care? If I need health care, I should pay for it out of my own pocket! Employers shouldn't have to provide health care."

"Who needs teachers? If I can't afford to pay a tutor for my child for 18 years, that's my fault."

Think about it.

Always skeptical of people who want to talk percentages.

Why not talk real numbers?

Well, because then it would be easier to figure out who's kidding whom.

Amid a dispute over pay and longer school days, Chicago teachers have voted to authorize a strike, the union said Monday.

Meanwhile, when the "teachers" (probably with tenure) strike and are on the picket line in front of a T.V. camera, they will say:

• "It is for the CHILDREN."

Yep, MILLIONS in the hole but they NEED that $$$ and shorter workdays.

basedum, You insult all american workers with your dribble. Every American Worker is important and while you degrade them wonder how your house will be built, wonder how your healthcare will be. You an ass.

Please, union workers, (especially teachers) tell us again how greedy the 1% are.

If the 1% are so greedy then why are parasites like o'really always trying to suck off them? Totally eliminating government public education is the answer to obtaining better schools.

Mmmmm.... I still believe unions have a purpose in this country, but a 24% raise in 1 year plus 5 in the second year? That's definitely a bit much considered the avg CPS teacher salary is already 78K.

As for the budget shortage, perhaps we should spend a little bit less on campaigns in this country and have that money used to things that really count.

David Stutz

Yeah right.. eliminating public schools? I wouldn't send my child to some private religious school if I was the richest man on the planet. Its time to reform America's schools, but closing them completely... get real.

Avg Chicago Salary: http://www.cps.edu/about_cps/at-a-glance/pages/stats_and_facts.aspx
Avg National Salary: http://www1.salary.com/Public-School-Teacher-Salary.html
Avg School Year/Length: http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pss/tables/table_15.asp

I want more money, and I don't care if it screws the middle-class or the poor who pay for it is more like what these so called intellectual schmucks are asking for.

"Totally eliminating government public education is the answer to obtaining better schools."

Better schools for whom? Seriously, that's your solution? If you think that's the answer you're on crack.

Totally eliminating government public education is the answer to obtaining better schools.

Great idea! Everyone can get the all education they can personally afford. Just like health care.

On a related note, why pay teachers at all? After all, they should consider it a privilege to be allowed to impart knowledge to others. Just let' em sit under a tree and teach whoever comes along.

40 kids in a classroom isn't safe.

They have just increased the school day by a couple of hours.

ItsAboutTime-3704531: mean and median are not the same thing, so that is not an accurate comparison.

Denvertronic, thank you and thanks to your Geometry teacher for teaching you that fact.

dude in the 1950's the average class size was like half the size it is now and we still did poorly then as we do now. It isn't the class size but of course the union scum will try to make us think that so that we get distracted.

Regardless, they do not need a 24% raise... Thats unrealistic in 1 year and for an entire school district? I support unions, but greedy ones need a dose of reality.

They are all Greedy!

I have two teachers in the family and was originally trained as a teacher. Even in my best year in the private sector I never received more than 10% in any given year, and that was in a profession that had a major shortage of people. 24% is absolutely ridiculous! I know, I know: teachers work hard; you should see how hard the gal in the next room from my daughter works. She shows up about 2 minutes before start, takes no extra duties, and explodes out the door exactly on the close. Her students can barely score the minimums on state tests and the kids have to be split across 6 classes for the next year so they can be caught up to grade level.

I am so happy to see that the teachers unions are all about the education of children and not about the money!!! Really? And in a district that already has a $700 million shortfall! Did the union bosses fail remedial math in college or does becoming a union boss just automatically make you stupid?

In defense of ItsAboutTime, the mean and median are often used together to analyze data. The fact that the mean salary of CPS teachers ($74,839) is higher than the median salary ($50,491) of public school teachers in the U.S. shows that more CPS teachers are paid substantially higher than the national median. Otherwise, the mean and median would be a lot closer together.

ChicagoT- The article stated that they increased the school day by 10% In order to increase it by "a couple of hours", that would mean the current school day was 20 hours long. So if the previous school day was 7 hours, the increase would be 42 minutes. That's essentially adding a single period to the day.

One thing the article doesn't address is that the school year is around 9 months long. So, the teachers are making about $75k a year for a 9 month year. That translates to $100k a year. Not too shabby by any standard. Many of them work summer jobs or attend higher level course during that break, they get a bunch of paid holidays, sick leave, vacation time, and other benefits. They are pretty decently compensated.

Jane: while you are correct in your assertion that mean and median are often used together, using a national median and a Chicago mean is pretty disingenuous, and does not necessarily prove that a substantial amount of CPS teachers are making substantially more than the national median. For all we know, there could be a small handful of teachers making exorbitant, $200k+ salaries with the vast majority earning substantially lower than the national median.

In order to make an informed decision on this matter, we would have to know a lot more information, such as accurate mean and median salaries for both CPS teachers, Illinois teachers, and US teachers. In addition, if those numbers could be adjusted for cost of living and broken down into classes of teachers, such as degree level, years experience, area of expertise, etc, it would be helpful. One other handy piece of data to have would be the changes in pay of administrators over time.

In essence, I am arguing not for one side or the other in this matter (although to be fair, I do lean to the left), but rather an informed, level-headed approach. It would seem rational that most workers should receive pay increases commensurate with cost of living and performance. Although it is probably difficult to judge performance in the teaching profession because of socio-economic factors such as student demographics and striking a balance in between teaching students to perform well on tests and also to think independently, which is a far more subjective thing to evaluate.

As in all things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, however throwing out disingenuous numbers does not help achieve an informed decision on the matter.

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s320x320/432179_299994243399988_2024562566_n.jpg

Well, I agree on the union, part, but this isn't about replacing assembly line workers.

Sure it is. You don't need education, training, or experience to be a teacher.

After all, look at the push for home-schooling. Any idiot can do it.

Now if you want the kids to learn something... not so much.

I say that its not hard for 2 reasons..

A) a lot of ppl still goto school to be a teacher.

B) Look at how many stories we have seen this year.. X district lays of Y teachers.

I dont think it would be very hard to find replacement teachers who WANT to do the job.

Would you work 10 extra days and a 10% longer day and let your boss take away your contracted 4% raise from years ago?

Do the math buddy, and then ask yourself if you would just sit there at take it.

What I don't get is why the public would rather fight battles over something that at most is going to cost taxpayers a few million a year, while simultaneously letting too big to fail banks continue to operate in ways that create systemic risks and require bailouts to the tune of $750billion from the taxpayer and $16T from the Fed. The real cause of budgetary problems is the fact that the economy is in the toilet and revenues are down because of the systemic risks introduced into the system by a small handful of under-regulated banks. This problem still hasn't been solved. A 24% raise is paltry in comparison to the raises and bonuses the bankers that tanked the economy have received courtesy of the taxpayer. Yet, here we are blaming unions for the mess.

Jeremy the problem with your argument is that unlike jobs outside of education there is no correlation between the quality of work a teacher does and their boss's ability to keep a job and/or "do well" at their profession. A teacher who has a classrooom full of kids who do great on exams is not necessarily doing a better or worse job than a person who has a room full of kids barely passing or barely failing exams given by the state. Just think about it: you probably had a sibling who did worse or better than you in school. If your teacher was judged based on your sibling doing better or worse than you do you really think it was the teachers' doing or the fact that you were better or worse than your sibling?

Seg- If the alternative was to be layed off or fired, you bet I would work longer hours for less, or find another job.

If the district doesn't have the money to pay for what the teachers want, they will have to lay off teachers, police, fire, ambulance, etc. if they are forced to comply with the pay raise. States can't print money like the federal government.

Todd, then you don't tell them they are working 20% more! The mayor made this mess because he thought teachers could not get teh 75%. And the district has money.. look up tiff funds and cps fraud under micheal scott.

Todd: in most circumstances, take a paycut or go find another job works. However, the public school system has a near monopoly on teachers. If they are fed up with their job, it's not as easy to quit and go somewhere else. This is due to lack of competition, but that's not an easy problem to solve because every solution creates an entirely different set of problems.

There are a crap ton of out of work teachers in the United States. Finding replacements wouldn't be that difficult. If the teachers don't like getting a pay cut that brings them to the level of everyone else in the US, then I guess it's time to find another job.

I don't think public servants should be allowed to unionize. We keep forgetting that taxpayers are the ones who must ultimately pay, and using union thuggery to extort the taxpayer should be illegal. There are ample federal, state, and local employment laws that already protect the public servant, unions are only about the money at this point.

yep just need a babysitter for the spoiled rich brats, this whole convo is disgusting

If teachers are so great then why doesn't most industry recognize an education degree as any degree at all? If teachers grade and even promote kids using the results of standardized tests, why do they resist accepting standardized tests when we rate them? But cutting their unions or their compensation packages is wrong. Just giving them any more when the money is not there should not be done. They will understand. They're teachers. They say they are smarter than us.

YES lets be just like China and make labor unions illegal!.... Employers will look out for us and wont short us our value in labor to make a quick profit....... we will have 35 cent wagers, 35 hour work days, and workers jumping off the buildings in no time!

Adolf Hitler May 2, 1933:

"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike"

Hey GOP, get that war chest warmed up with the Koch's Brothers. Thanks to Citizens United, you can crush this union for about 100 million.

Unions are criminals.

Holding your employer or State hostage to get personal gains.....CRIMINAL

Dont' like you job......get another.....

Entitlement victim mentality. Everyone thinks they are owed everything.

Somebody get Walker to comment on Chicago, and Emanuel to comment on Wisconsin.

Would be interesting.

Unions still have a purpose in this country... but they need to set more realistic expectations. If Corporations did what they were supposed too as well as the federal government, then we wouldn't need unions at all.

So you finally realized that unions are punishment for companies that once upon a time mistreated workers. Foreign companies knew that all along. That's why the japanese and german auto plants in this country wont unionize. They're treated too well and thanks to obama, their entry level workers now make more than entry level union slobs in the "US" auto plants.

MireV03, that is just a ridiculous claim. We have federal laws that prevent the wages and hours you are suggesting. Unions did have a huge hand in establishing our current labor laws, and for that, they deserve credit. But all they are doing now is being greedy. They have outlived their purpose.

Mike, Outlived it years ago!

private sector unions should stay but public sector unions have to go. No more tax payer shake downs.

Greg

Holding your employer or State hostage to get personal gains.....CRIMINAL

Planning on bringing back slave labor are we??

But I would agree to back all Wall Street bankers out and have them shot at dawn.

I think public employee unions should be illegal. I don't like private unions either, but that is between private business and the unions. My tax dollars should not be extorted to pay for exceptional benefit packages and higher than average salaries that your average private employer would not be able to afford.

I'm not sure what planet some of you folks are from, but if a state is 700 billion in the hole, spending cuts not increases are needed. Where do you make the cuts?

Al-

Planning on bringing back slave labor are we??

That is exactly why the federal government needs to stay out of education. When states are allowed to run their own education programs and public service unions are a thing of the past, teachers will migrate to wherever has the best pay and benefits. Politicians from School districts that fail to attract good teachers will be voted out of office and replaced with school board officials that understand you have to offer good pay to attract the best and brightest.

Protecting under performing teachers wouldn't be possible under this system. Rewarding the best and removing the worst is a win win situation for not only the students, but the tax payer as well.

no, it's only a reason to privatize the system. Same with those idiots who want to privatize the military with over paid / under trained contractors. Like you said "anyone who only does it for the money........."

Dick RIGHT ON..... Unions are really nothing more then Legalized Mobsters.....

Anyone who thinks any employer, state or private, is going to treat his people fairly is crazy. You make money by cutting costs. If in the public sector, you stay in office by cutting costs. What's the easiest cost to cut? What cost is your competitors cutting?

They don't expect to get 24% increase. That is just a number they start at the bargining table. They are prepared to go lower and accept lower.

Right, unions only want one thing--- MORE

What other professional sector increases hours by 10% and increases work days by 10 days and then offers a 2% raise? What other profession can take back a contracted 4% raise and then think no one will fight for it?

What other profession mandates added education hours in order to be re certified but not not pay for it. What other profession fires thousands and then does not follow state laws in order to re hire those who were fired? What other profession works 2-4 hours when they get home and asks for nothing? What other profession indeed.

Go teachers!

The beauty of free enterprise is the opportunity is there for you to do something else. If teachers have it SO bad do something else for a living. No one is going to cry for you, plenty of folks on this blog I am sure work 50 hours plus, some I am sure work two jobs. I am confident there are those who have not had a raise in several years, who have no real "security" with theirjob. I have respect for teachers they are valuable I had many wonderful ones (some dudes) BUT your city and state IS BROKE!

Graduation rate is a ridiculous measure. If you want 100% graduation, that's easy to get. If you want graduates to have learned, that's tougher. Not everyone deserves a diploma.

seg-2909833

The current CPS union contract for a teacher workday is 5 hours and 45 minutes. While they may spend more time than that at school, a 10% increase doesn't seem out of line since I've never seen an exempt position in a private company that requires less than 8 hours a day...

You've got to be kidding me I earn less than 85k a year and I work all year plus and I live in Kali with rents that would make you sick. If I can make it on my salary there's no reason she can't either.

Hey...um...Gary...sarcasm?

The teachers are sure acting like children. They want their money but dont want to work for it or be graded-- how ironic.

Do you even HAVE a kid in CPS????? Or are just waiting for another Millionaire / Corporate Tax cut?????

You always get the best teachers when you denigrate them and pay them as little as possible. In addition, it helps to undermine their credibility with their students by calling them names.

I wanted to be a teacher and actually student taught in the early 1970s. What teachers get is bad pay and bad treatment. Good teachers make way too little and bad ones make too much. Personally, I wouldn't teach for less than $150K per year. Good luck getting good math and science teachers for less than $80K per year - and that's probably not enough to hold on to them after a couple of years.

Finally, Mitt makes over $500K a day in retirement and you're complaining because the teachers don't want to teach your little darlings for 8% less than last year? Pay your taxes or watch your city/state go down the drain.

ChicagoT....how are teachers supposed to live relative to others in your district? Upper crust? Middle class? Beemer or Buick? Vacation in Europe or driving the Greyhound?

Good point, but you're comparing apples and oranges. One gets paid by capital gains, the other gets paid by tax dollars. The public schools in of itself are socialist organizations, not capitalistic.

CPS charter school are. And CPS choosed to funnel more money into charters than to children's neighborhood schools. We owe the teacher this raise. If they don't get it, why would a teacher bother staying here to teach our children? They had a contracted 4% raise and that was just stolen from them. Work 10% more and and on 10 more days a year? Yea, if they didn't fight this, I would think they didn't deserve to be teachers.

Now let's get back to reality. Most folks who earn a raise, actually earn it. It's not something to be negotiated in a contract. 24% raise......ludicrous.

If you ask someone to work 10 extra days and increase their hours 10% on top of that... the reality says 20% is not far off from what they deserve. Add the 4% contracted raise teachers had stolen from them and then add a cpi increase (look it up) and you come to over 24% Or are you the kind of person that would just work for free and cower?

Republicans are pining for the days when only women were teachers because the pay was so bad, and women had few other career options, and it was assumed they didn't really need the money or benefits becasue their husband was the breadwinner.

..you know....the "good old days".

yes, don't give it to the teachers who you are asking to work 10 extra days and a 10% longer day. Spend it on alcohol or just steal it.

Hey Seg.. Why would an employer 'ask' anything. An employer can 'tell' their employee what the terms of employment are - and if the employee doesn't like it, they should find another job! Also, why are there guidance councilers at all? Does anybody know what they do for a job?

"why are there guidance councilers at all? Does anybody know what they do for a job?"

They're there to help students plan their curriculum and plan for college. If you had gone to college, you would probably know that, as well as how to spell "counselor."

They signed contracts for a certain number of teaching days. If you require more days, you have to pay them more.

Guidance counselors are racketeers. The big drive by teachers once established in a tenured slot is how to get out of the classroom. Like a cop wanting to get out of the bag and into a desk job. Law removes most options from students. And if the teachers are so great, the students can figure out their own options from documents.

We value education. We just want our kids to get some of it for all the money we pay. The wealthy push vouchers cuz their businesses need workers ready to work.

The wealthy push vouchers because their kids don't go to public schools, and they want the taxpayers to fund their private schools and religious schools.

That is all.

Many here comment negatively because the job the teachers have done on them or their kids has been somewhat lacking. Education as a result of this process (what goes on in Chicago schools) is a goal that in many cases is missed. When folks see teachers sponsoring expensive, fictitious commercials showing how good they are, how they help the kids, how they are struggling on their $75K pittance, folks struggling on a heck of a lot less are irked.

Sounds like education is not your thing.

@Thepunisher.....how the hell you come to that conclusion based on my comment is beyond me, but please, allow me to clarify. I am a strong advocate of education. What I do not condone is paying a pervert to sit at home on his a$$ because it's "in his contract".

Now, is there any part of that is not clear? Do I need to go over it again?

It's based on the CEO model. Do a good job, get paid. Do a bad job, get paid. Get fired, get paid.

Capitalism at work.

What if the teacher was found innocent. His/Her career is already destroyed, while you take their last paychecks away? Ever heard of due process? I don't condone paying child molesters either, but shouldn't judgement be past after at least an initial investigation has been concluded?

They need a Scott Walker!

They stole a contracted 4% raise. They want them to work 10 extra days and a 10% longer day. Do a cpi check and see what their real raise based on the economy should be. Do the math. What the union is asking for is right inline.

Unless you would cower and work for free and let appointed board members take away from you what you were contracted to get...the union is in the right.

I imagine you couldn't read too well. Strike every year? Not in 20 years, buddy. You don't take a strike vote unless your contract is up. Way to make stuff up and not even appear to be intelligent!

You dropped out, didn't you?

Went to the Chicago Public Schools in the 60's and 70's. Every year they threatened to strike or went on strike. School was to start one week after my birthday. seg your right not in 20 years, and I moved to another State and the Governor here who now heads HLS just gave our teachers raises every year, you know what we have the smartest children in the world because money makes better teachers! I give you 10 to one odds if you gave a teacher a million dollars an hour and one student that teacher still couldn't teach and wouldn't teach any better than they do now!!!!!!!!!!! If money were the answer I pay every gramer school kid $100,000,000.00 then they wouldn't have to go to school they would all ready know it. No sam I learned the hard way!

Well, you go ahead and do that. I think you should take 15% of your take home pay and donate it to the Chicago Public School System so they can give it to a teacher, however, you need to LEAVE MY MONEY alone, as I don't make near what they make and I work everyday.

Get out YOUR check book and mail em away, Im sure Government takes donations.

Do you have a Master's Degree in Education????

Well most of these teachers do. Furthermore STOP comparing YOUR pay with others. What do you do? Do you expect to get paid the same as a Doctor or Lawyer just because you put in 40 hours????

OMG

I expect them to teach the children for what they get paid. When they can do that than and only than they can ask for a pay raise, they will have earned it ChicagoT until then they are worthless and do not do the job they are being paid to do. Yes I went to Chocago Public Schools from Kindergarden Morrill Gramre School and Gage Park High Scholl, 60's and 70's so don't tell me I don't know.

So you would work 10 extra days and a 10% longer day for free? I have a garage that needs painting. Mind if I don't pay you?

Sorry I missed spelled School. See what I mean

seg, what are you talking about, a teacher knows what they are getting paid for a year just like everybody else they don't work any harder then they want to, those that work hard a dedicated and would deserve more it's those that the UNION won't let you get ride of the non-performers we won't pay. The school system will give money to the administration the union and under performers.

The mayor took away their contracted raise from the last contract. The board has policies to get rid of underperfoming teachers. Look up your local lsc if you want to see what they are doing. You cant ask someone to work 20% more during the year (hours and days) and not expect to pay them. I for one would not want my child going to a school where the teachers don't know their basic math.

Pay the teachers what CPS owes them, or don't tack on the longer day and extended year.

Bubba,

you misspelled "missed spelled".

The best teacher in the world can't teach a moron to spell.

seg you must be a teacher, that explains a lot. You shouldn't call you students names you should just molest them!

ChicagoT

Take your MS in education to GM, Boeing or the phone company and they won't even consider you a college graduate. All college educated people recognize a teacher's degree is what you get when you fail some other program but want to stay in school. What is so great about that degree when laymen with no degree excel in producing well educated kids and without the whining, too.

You call yourself a great mom???? Please. Nannies get paid more than that.

These teachers are severly underpaid for what they do. For crying outloud, they have our kids for 8 hours a day EVERYDAY.

@ChicagoT......a lot of babysitters and daycares keep kids 8 hours a day? Should we pay them $75k?

You might want to check what teachers actually make in Chicago. And, did you factor in what they have to pay for their education in order to keep their certification up? Oh, and they don't get social security and their pension has not been paid into from CPS like the law says it should. Maybe you don't care about the quality of teacher that your child gets, but I for one want the best they can get. And we are not going to get good teachers in Chicago when they keep screwing with them.

If the teachers are not eligible for Social Security, it is probably because they don't have the privilege of paying 6.2% of their salaries into the Social Security Trust. Teaching as a profession has never paid well and yet tens of thousands get degrees in Education and go into teaching thinking things will change and teaching will pay better. Surprise, you were wrong, just as those who went before you. I thought about teaching for maybe two seconds and then decided to study Math and Science in college. I have a Masters degree and make a great salary in the private sector. If the teachers don't like the pay, then move into another field. This is America, you can be what you want, just do not expect it to pay as well. This isn't the old Soviet Union.

And, did you factor in what they have to pay for their education in order to keep their certification up?

Its a good thing teachers are the only people that have to go to college to get a high paying job.

Before you libs keep posting this argument, please think about how negatively that argument affects the argument for police, fire, and then the total leeches in the public sector that arent teachers, fire and police.

I know libs like the teacher, fire, police talking point, but there are many other public employees that make it so we cant pay them more.

But what if they DON'T earn or deserve it?

ChicagoT what Union do you or one of your family members belong to?

"But what if they DON'T earn or deserve it?"

...then they have a lot in common with Mittens.

Uhhh- can we guess why your monicker is ChicagoT???

And you call what Walker is doing to Wisconsin not a mess? Who would want to live or work in your state under those conditions? I sure do not believe in the Republican philosophy of economics. It has taken President Obama almost his entire first term to straighten out the mess from the last Republican president. If you research history our country has always done better for the majority and not just the 1 % under Democratic leadership.

Called Reform.

LOL, you have the worst job creation record out of ALL 50 states.

Go read and learn.

Hmmm Ill unemployment is higher.

Bread and Circuses!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, in your view, what is an appropriate salary for someone with a bachelors degree and a teaching certificate?

My wife has a bachelors degree in Biology and a masters in Science Education. What do you think she's worth?

Just ballpark.

Hey sam, with the BS why won't industry have her? She'd be getting about 140K at some pharma house if she'd been an A student...it is obvious why her master's is in education.

Because she wanted to teach.

Why is that no matter what I post on here, the conservatives can't answer without throwing out insults? I asked a civil question. I didn't insult the original poster. I just asked a question, and what do I get from "tom343".

"Why won't industry have her?"

"it is obvious why her master's is in education"

..and you still didn't answer the original question.

Did you attend private school/church school as a child, tom343?

Waiting for you to insult me without answering.

I'm curious if you have the same passion for the teacher in CA that's not allowed to teach because he molested one of his students. AND he still draws a paycheck. I'd rather my tax dollars buy the man a bullet, but we all know that's not how the real world works.

I don;t support the ruling class, their political allies, or the rich who take and take and take....But as far as working people go, teachers have it OK. I wish I could get more pay and less work and more than 10 vacation days a year and come close to what they get in salary. I wish.

What's his name? Can you provide a link so I know you're not making it up?

I can't help but think that there is more to the story than you're telling us.

Thanks in advance.

Chicago T- Corporate taxes in the U.S. are the highest in the world. That is why businesses are shuttering their U.S. operations and moving to China and Mexico. They keep offshore accounts and don't bring the money into the U.S. to avoid paying those taxes. This not only reduces tax revenue, but also payroll taxes as jobs shift to other countries. The only way to reverse this trend is a greatly reduced corporate tax rate and other incentives for companies to bring their operations back to the U.S. and create those jobs. Collecting 5% corporate taxes from a company currently not paying any is far better than chasing those companies currently paying 35% out of the country.

More jobs equals more tax revenue. More tax revenue equals greater spending power for school districts. You sound pretty smart, what would 100% employment do for the CPS? Don't blame business for this mess, it's the government's sticky fingers that is driving this recession, and until we invite corporations back into this country, we will continue to see our standard of living drop. Being a public employee shouldn't protect you from this fact.

You are not very smart, Romey does not collect a salary. Teachers collect a salary. Learn more about what you talk about before showing your a__

Please look into taxes on salaries vs taxes on investment income-you will first see that income is taxed at a corporate level and then again at a individual level so this "millionaires and romney don't pay taxes is total BS." Also if you are paying a higher tax rate than the avg millionaire (which for last year was 29%) then it is no one's fault but your own-you need an accountant or a new one because the avg middle class American paid 14% last year so you are clearly doing something wrong. The millionaires that paid lower than 29% are less than 1% of the "1%" so please educate yourself before spouting bs left wing propaganda. (oh and by the way since you seem like an Obama fan-he and romney paid alomost the exact same tax rate and combined tax and charitable contribution percentages of total income so bashing one without bashing the other makes you look pretty stupid).