Listen, I get that it's private, but last I checked, "gay" wasn't contagious. It's not like somebody's gonna sneeze on you, and the next day your gonna like dudes.

Sarah-3043284: Ever hear the saying Monkey see, Monkey do??

Kids do things they see and say things they hear. If you want your children exposed to abnormal life styles then, that is your choice.

Telling Children being gay is OK is going to make them think its ok then. These kids might not become gay as described today, but be BI-Sexual. Why they were taught its ok to love a women or a man.

So tell me Sarah do you think its ok?

Telling Children being gay is OK is going to make them think its ok then. These kids might not become gay as described today, but be BI-Sexual. Why they were taught its ok to love a women or a man.

Telling children being gay is okay, will make it so they DON'T END UP KILLING THEMSELVES and being victims of systemic bullying, both from peers and society.

Plus, being gay IS okay.

Tell me, Leatherneck, how has "gay" ever hurt you?

Yes Sarah-3043284 i did 26 yrs in the FD and They tend to Spread Aids They Can Hurt Even when we were trying to be Careful Treating them !!!!

Leatherneck - Being gay is OK - that's the point. You're position is based on the assumption that gender preference is a learned behavior. The science doesn't support your position. As an example, if you expose a female animal to testosterone at the right point in early development, she is going to demonstrate "lesbian" behavior the rest of her life. Gender preferences are wired into the brain (hypothalamus) at a very early age of development (we are talk neonatal) due to higher or lower exposure to testosterone - thus homosexuality is a congenital condition.

Interestingly left vs. right handedness is of a very similar origin - excess testosterone slows the growth of the left hemisphere of the brain, which leads to left-handedness. At one point, left-handedness was considered sinful and lead to people being burned, stoned, etc. Amazingly, we've moved beyond that belief structure - just like society is gradually migrating to an appropriate understanding of the origins of homosexuality.

Unfortunately, you are on the backside of that learning curve and prefer to let the incorrect, ignorant societal teachings guide you.

Joe,

You're paranoid. First, even IF a homosexual male scout leader had AIDS, how would it then be transfered to the kids? You also can't get sneezed on and catch HIV. Second, AIDS as a gay disease is a myth, perpetuated by paranoid people, i.e. you...

http://www.thebody.com/content/art32330.html

This policy is and has been in effect for ages. The BSA, being a private organization has the right to make such policy so if this board member is conflicted, he should resign.

Besides, this country affords gays and others the freedom to establish their own organizations but they would much rather to continue harassing the BSA. That's their agenda.

Wet Willy - Private organizations are comprised of people and I can only assume that just like in society as a whole, the makeup of the BSA executive board is comprised of more than one viewpoint on this issue - beyond just one member. I love the "private organization" attitude that many of you expound - it is based on some monolithic, homogenous group of people that all think like automatons. Real groups don't actually function like that and the BSA is no different. The BSA's policy will change eventually - just as society's position has changed over time. The BSA is just trailing public sentiment - as are you. (You are now in the minority regarding belief on the topic of homosexuals (http://www.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx) The link says it all - the Gallup poll has been conducted since 1977 and the trend is hard to ignore.

James Turley, global chairman and CEO of consulting and tax firm Ernst & Young, said late Tuesday that his experience had led him “to believe that an inclusive environment” was “important throughout our society.”

Time for a new board member. Just what the Boy Scouts need. Someone that would advocate for homosexual Scout leaders. Open invitation for NAMBLA. Back to CEOing your accounting firm full time there James.

I could say the same thing Sarah about kids that are bullied for being small, weak or other. It is called PARENTS FAILED there kid or kids.

Right, even if their kid is gay.

Yet tell kids being gay is ok is not doing that that is letting them know to follow a sick and perverted life style. Saying its ok to be gay, might as well say to them as well its ok to be a pedophile, its ok to rape a women or man, its ok to be a necrophiliac, its ok to be a bestiality.

Oh, Leatherneck, you still don't understand the difference between your opinion and a fact. Please show me some substantive, credible evidence that shows how homosexuality is destroying society. And, no it wouldn't lead to beastiality. We've been over this, it's called INFORMED CONSENT.

Leatherneck, how has "gay" ever hurt you? Its a Perversion SARAH

That doesn't answer the question. How has it hurt you? How has it caused you substantive harm?

Being gay is the same sickness as a necrophiliac or bestiality.

Informed consent. Informed consent. Informed consent.

Its a perversion of human brain that says its ok to **** someone of the same sex or dead bodies or animals Sarah.

Evidence?

You may want to check the mirror, your tin foil hat is showing.

Leatherneck - Homosexuality is a function of the neo-natal development of the hypothalamus. It is congenital. Is a congenital heart defect a perversion too?

Ok, here we go again. I thought I was going to explode over yesterdays ignorant comments. Why are people SO afraid? What on earth do you think these "homosexuals" are gonna do if they are allowed to be part of the Scouts. Leatherneck says "monkey see, monkey does". Ok...do you think there will be orgies or something? That is SO wrong. I mean really come on. They will see Scouts and Scout parents doing Scout things. That's what they will see. I don't think I would mind my kid seeing and doing that. and I don't even have a kid. God people come on. You people should be ashamed of yourselves......really

Don't be a moron 1.9

You misunderstand my position, which is not the debate over the BSA not allowing gays, but rather the larger picture of forcing private organizations to adopt positions inconsistent with their beliefs. This extends far beyond any issue of whether the BSA or any private organization should allow gay membership.

As another example, the BSA employs the term "God" in its oath that's taught to the scouts. Should they be forced to remove this reference because it might offend a theoretical scout that may have atheistic proclivities?

Also, homosexuality is not a perversion. It is a defect like any other defect of the human condition, i.e. downs syndrome, immune system issues, deformities, etc. Society doesn't revile people with any other birth defects so why should homosexuals be treated differently?

Leatherneck said:

Kids do things they see and say things they hear.

And when they grow up, as reasoning, thinking, logical human beings, they are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what they believe and what they want to do.

If you want your children exposed to abnormal life styles then, that is your choice.

Who defines what is normal? Practitioners of my belief system consider homosexuality to be normal.

Throughout the ancient world, both heterosexuality and homosexuality has been practiced. Incest was common in ancient Egypt--in order t keep the line pure, the Ptolemaic dynasty that ruled Egypt after Alexander rolled through married sister to brother. Cleopatra herself was married to two of her own brothers. 'Normal' is subjective, and in a day and age and country where there are so many people who believe so many different things are 'normal' in one society, one group who believes one thing is not 'normal' should not be able to make rules for another group who believes that these things ARE normal unless they can prove that this is harmful to EVERYONE.

Telling Children being gay is OK is going to make them think its ok then. These kids might not become gay as described today, but be BI-Sexual.

My Dad was Irish Catholic. I went to Catholic private schools when I was young. They all taught that homosexuality was wrong. Yet, when I got older and started actively thinking about what I was told, questioning what I'd blindly believed, things didn't make sense. I am bi, I suppose--I've only found one man in my life who I love and I had the good sense to marry him, but as he is much older than I we have had discussions about what I'd do if he died and left me a widower, and I have told him flat out that he is the last man I will ever let in my bed.

And no, he has no problem with that. He has no problem with the Maxim magazines I bring home. He has no problems with the NFL cheerleader calendars I hang up on the wall. He has no problem with me clipping photos out of Victoria's Secret. We go through the catalog together and pick out the girls we like and discuss relative merits of each one. (Not in front of our kids, however. Our oldest, who is ten, has just discovered this year that girls are not icky and was in fact suspended a half day for being caught exploring in the girls bathroom this past school year; and my youngest is autistic and still thinks girls are icky (except Mommy.)

Why they were taught its ok to love a women or a man.

Your spelling and punctuation leave a bit to be desired here, but I'll take it to mean that kids will be bi because they were taught it is ok to love a man or woman. First off, I am not bi because I was taught it is ok to love either a man or a woman. I just...am. I cant explain why I find other women attractive, I just do.

My upbringing in Catholic schools actually said only man can love woman, only woman can love man. And yet I'm bi. I have no doubt my Dad and Mom, if they were alive today, would have a whole litter of kittens over my sexual preference, my break with the Catholic church, and my choice of husband, but I also trust that they would understand this is what I believe, what I think, what I feel, and would love me no matter what.

Leatherneck...

What's your address?

Tee hee hee

Wet willy said:

Besides, this country affords gays and others the freedom to establish their own organizations

Yes, they do, but then we are not afforded the right to be treated equally.

Leatherneck,

Sarah I never said being gay leads to bestiality. I said if you think being gay is ok then you must think being necrophiliac or doing bestiality is OK too. Why its the same sick and twisted perversion.

It doesn't matter. It would only be logical to assume those who support gay rights also support beastiality, IF AND ONLY IF, those who support gay rights have no respect for informed consent. Homosexuality has informed consent, beastiality doesn't.

Is it really that hard?

It's beyond illogical to make that assumption, leap, conection, in any way shape or form.

Leatherneck,

You're totally confusing orientation with sexual acts. Do you define being in a hetrosexual relationship strictly by the sexual acts? If so, I feel bad for the person you're in a relationship with! A relationship is much more than sex. It's love, support, providing strength and inspiration to grow as a person and its much much more. Yes, sex is a part of it, but I never hear anti-gay people talk strictly in terms of the sex acts when it comes to hetreo couples, but they sure do that when it comes to gay couples (even though the sex acts are the same)! Don't you see that being gay or bi-sexual is not just having sex? It's being in a loving relatiaonship with someone, who might just be the gender as you. Yes, expression of that love through sex is part of it, but you're making it sound like all there is to being gay or bi-sexual is having sex. One cannot change their orientation, which is innate in all of us, just by being told someone else is ok the way they are. If the person isn't already gay or bi-sexual, they're not going to "turn" gay or bi-sexual. You don't just change who you're attracted to and want to form a committed relationship with. And do not go on about beastiality etc, because any rational argument concedes we're talking about adults in a consenual relationship.

It's a tough decision as far as the scout leaders, but, as far as the scouts themselves, why are 11, 12, and 13 year olds saying they are 'gay'? Kids that young shouldn't be having sex, so they are too young to be claiming they have a "sexual preference". Any kid at that age claiming to be gay or straight needs to be looked at for signs of abuse.

It's amazing the mental gymnastics Leather will go through to justify discrimination. I'd hate to see him fifty years ago during the civil rights movement.

while I'm all for equal rights and signing kumbaya around the fire, private organizations should be able to include or exclude anyone they want. big gay al would want it that way.

Actually, Jed, it depends what sort of relationship you're talking about, a plutonic non-sexual relationship also can provide:

love, support, providing strength and inspiration to grow as a person

But a sexual relationship can give that, plus the benefit of sex.

Just a generation ago, people would have said keep the blacks out or keep the Jews, Irish, or Italians out.

Every generation, America realizes that a hated, misunderstood group is actually just like everyone else. And all those fears were completely incorrect.

Gays are just like everyone else. Worried about children learning that homosexuality exists? Why aren't you worried that children will learn heterosexuality exists? Yes, they are BOTH normal.

I have no problem with the Boy Scouts discriminating against anyone, they are as the say a "private organization" just as the Masons (which discriminates against blacks, in the south anyway). They should also recieve NO federal/tax money (which they do) and should pay back any they have received.

Ever hear the saying Monkey see, Monkey do??

Kids do things they see and say things they hear.

Yes Leatherneck... "monkey see, monkey do."

For instance, when I was younger I watched the Empire Strike Back. I saw Luke Skywalker get a sweet robot hand after his real hand was chopped off. Well, I was a child and... "monkey see, monkey do"... right? Long story short, I now have this awesome robot hand that looks real.

Because, like you said, every child copies everything they see. Now, let's have a moment of silence for the millions of children who watched Looney Tunes and died to tragic anvil related accidents.

as a parent i teach my children that being gay is wrong, I was brought up that way and will continue to believe that. For all you folks that wanna push queers and lesbians down my throat just remember ..i have the right to teach my children correct moral values no matter how hard you push

Jed7: I guess you missed a few headlines in the past few years.

Burly rugby player has a stroke after freak gym accident… wakes up gay and becomes a hairdresser

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2058921/Chris-Birch-stroke-Rugby-player-wakes-gay-freak-gym-accident.html#ixzz1xgmsPz3F

Derek Amato, Denver Man, Becomes Musical Genius After Head Injury

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/07/derek-amato_n_1577768.html

Also might want to look at other sites about people who have had a major head injury or medical condition that effected the Brain. You will hear people say they just are not the same person I knew, how they changed just from something as simple as hitting there head.

Why the brain chemistry was affected do to an internal injury.

To say: You don't just change who you're attracted to and want to form a committed relationship with.

Really its as easy as hitting your head and causing your brain chemistry to change. It affects how you act and perceive the world to who you might want to fall in love with. It all goes into brain chemistry.

Prohibition

why are 11, 12, and 13 year olds saying they are 'gay'? Kids that young shouldn't be having sex, so they are too young to be claiming they have a "sexual preference"

You didn't know that you were straight at 11, 12, and 13? I did... I remember having little schoolyard crushes on girls at that age. It wasn't sexual in nature, but it did allude to a preference.

It's amazing the mental gymnastics Leather will go through to justify discrimination.

And it is equally amazing the mental gymnastics you will go through to justify homosexuality and claim that it is natural and normal when in fact it is not no matter how you try to twist and spin it.

Prohibition, every gay person I've ever known (and I've known several) knew they were gay by about 8 years old. LONG before they knew anything about sex, they knew they were attracted to the same gender. And these are folks who were raised by loving, hetero parents and were not abused in any way.

So all of you who claim "gay is OK," is it OK to be schizophrenic(sp)? Many of these people are nice people with odd quirks but we try to help them understand and fuction. How about alcoholics? Should we just let them be because it is OK to be an alcoholic? Being gay is the same way. Having those feelings is one thing. Acting on the feelings is something different. We all have different feelings at different times. We may want to literally kill someone or hit someone's car with our car because they are being jerks but usually we don't because we control our feelings. We, as a society, need to help people understand that being gay is not normal but find a loving way to do it, and electric prods or beating it out of someone is not loving.

Someone posted that kids who think thay are gay committ suicide because they are confused. You're right, they are confused. They have friends or family telling them its OK and then they have friends or family telling them its not OK so what are they supposed to do. And please don't blame just one side or the other because they both play a part in the problem.

And for those that are bisexual, your life style is definetly a choice. Gays can claim they were born that way but for bisexuals you are chosing to have sexual relationships with both men and women, so really you folks need to keep out of the conversation.

The BSA should remain straight, not anti-gay because the Scouts are taught to be courteous, kind and friendly, and choose to teach those priciples. If you don't like it then start the Gay Scouts of America and keep out the straights.

Are the BSA teaching prejudice against another due to a personal sexual orientation???

Sounds like it for some.

However BSA and GSA are about teaching leadership skills and having adventures, whiledeveloping social skills -----but it is not about racial discrimination, religious discrimination or sexual preference discrimination but about teaching children, all children about being a good person and a leader!

And when adults battle over BS such as this based on their fears and imaginations for the time has come for BSA and GSA to find some new leaders for they are portraying a poor sport attitude and personal prejudices have no place in these organizations developed for all children.

Telling Children being gay is OK is going to make them think its ok then.

That's because it IS OK!

is it OK to be schizophrenic(sp)? .... How about alcoholics? Should we just let them be because it is OK to be an alcoholic?

Your analogy is not only flawed, it demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between reality, and your understanding of homosexuality. It is NOT an AFFLICTION, it is not something you can 'control' through behavior or drugs, or by making different choices.

Mguy/Prohibition,

When I was about 12, I thought I really, really, liked the movie Newsies. Turned out I just really, really, liked Christian Bale.

It's just always been present, even before we knew what it was, right?

BLT,

Schizophrenia is found in the DSM-IV, can you find me homosexuality? I can go on and on, about the substantive negative effects on society that schizophrenia and addiction have, you have no credible evidence that homosexuality causes any harm.

If being straight doesn't lead to the end of the world, and the only difference between being gay and straight is the gender of one specific person that the other person is attracted too, what is inherent to that one person's gender that will lead to societal harm?

Actually, homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom (ie. nature) has been very well documented. You only have to put the bible down and pick up a science book.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

There, argument/debate ended.

Now, let's have a moment of silence for the millions of children who watched Looney Tunes and died to tragic anvil related accidents

Not funny, I'm 44 and still waiting on my package from Acme!

Telling Children being gay is OK is going to make them think its ok then. These kids might not become gay as described today, but be BI-Sexual. Why they were taught its ok to love a women or a man.

Leatherneck ... what do you find so attractive about sex with other men that makes you think that the only reason that it doesn't occur more often is because people are taught that it's not "OK"? Are you wrestling with some "inner demons"?

"Monkey see, Monkey do"? So it's okay for heterosexuals to f*ck in front of the children? God forbid a "fag" bangs someone in front of the kids but it's okay for straight people.

And so, in teaching your children that it's wrong to be a homosexual then if by some chance they do have homosexual inclinations then they'll supress that and end up hating you. And if one of your kids turns out to be gay are you going to disown them? Is that what Christ would do?

Some of you would cite the Weekly World News to make your close minded, empty headed, ridiculously retarded thoughts valid. That doesn't make you any less stupid than a @!$%# flinging monkey but if you want to maintain your hateful, bigoted ways then feel free. It doesn't make you right, it just makes you a fuc*king a**hole.

I'm not trying to be insensitive I am trying to make as direct a point as possible.

A gay man is attracted to men which is the thought process of a woman. A gay male has an option it's called Girl Scouts. Boys can't become Girl Scouts and viceversa. The boys are separated from the girls for more than one reason and curiosity would be high on that list. Girls don't camp with the boys and boys who like boys also should not camp with the boys.

The purpose of scouting is to teach the boys how to become men. It's not a social club it is designed to teach. If you don't want to be a man why would you want to be a Boy Scout?

As for leaders being gay, we have enough curriculum to teach the boys, we don't need to stop for a moment to explain why Billy has two moms. That should be taken care of outside the organization. The BSA is structured in a certain way and has been for for 100 years. Is there nothing sacred anymore? Augusta doesn't allow women even though it has been challenged over the years.

I have no problem with the Boy Scouts discriminating against anyone, they are as the say a "private organization" just as the Masons (which discriminates against blacks, in the south anyway). They should also recieve NO federal/tax money (which they do) and should pay back any they have received.

You're exactly right, falconer. I would add that their tax-exempt status should also be revoked. If an organization wants to discriminate, fine. But, don't expect to be subsidized by the tax code.

Mguy,

I lost my sister when she ran into the side of a cliff that had been painted to look like a tunnel. :(

Barry may have something Leatherneck. Look at the news, the most vehemently anti-gay types turn out to be....gay.

Sarah

When I was around 11 or 12 it was Saved by the Bell... well, Kelly Kapowski to be more specific. But that damn Zach Morris kept stealing her from me. But the point remains, we were all very well aware of our sexual preference, even before we were actually having sex.

Sarah, while I don't agree with your conclusions, your arguments are cogent and well considered. However, I really think you miss the more salient point that is being threatened here by corporate pressure which has nothing to do with the BSA.

The Boy Scouts of America are an autonomous, fraternal organization that has religious (Christian) roots and rules. They are granted the right to exclude and include based on their Constitutional right of free association. Would the ACLU, or the GLBT, or Planned Parenthood want pro-life, anti-gay evangelicals demanding their right to associate with them? Why can't gay parents just let their kids associate with Gay friendly organizations? It seems mean spirited to try to change the tenents of the BSA just because of sour grapes about the fact that it opposes homosexual behavior as aborrant because of its obedience to Scriptural doctrine.

It isn't about whether gays have the right to join the BSA...its about the BSA's constitutional right to exclude them.

falconer

Not funny, I'm 44 and still waiting on my package from Acme!

The giant rocket you strap to your back to chase road runners? Ya... mine is apparently on back order.

Leatherneck,

You seem to be conceding that it's not a choice, but rather has physiological roots. So if it's based on brain chemistry, how is it a choice? However, I was referencing your statement that just by seeing a same sex couple or being told it's ok, someone is going to become gay or bi-sexual if they were straight to begin with. Do you think that could happen to you? Didn't think so. So, why would it happen to someone else who isn't already gay or bi-sexual?

The Boy Scouts of America are an autonomous, fraternal organization that has religious (Christian) roots and rules. They are granted the right to exclude and include based on their Constitutional right of free association

Correct, and as such should not receive any federal money. Happily they are quickly losing these funds.

My biggest concern here is that the BSA gets pressured or bullied into a decision that was not made on there own. I know that is probably never 100% possible but it is more possible than when you have additional outside pressures beyond the normal trying to get you to change (the media, large special interests groups), which I admit is not always a bad thing either, depending on the outcome you want who you are trying to change - but I don't think applies here.

Granted its not a great thing that the BSA has done with having this policy but it was established in different times and to that end what else have they done that is really negative? They have been a rather stellar organization that still have great values and has taught so many kids to become leaders and passed on other skills to help them in life. Not to mention the various community and charity projects they take part in. In other words they aren't some evil empire but a group that has done a lot of good but unfortunately just has not updated one policy that is no longer in line with the times.

I don't agree with the policy, and think it is time to make a change as well, and believe me this is going to get changed, if not now, then in the very near future. I just hope people will respect whatever decision they make and not start condemning the BSA as some evil gay bashing organization (like oh the KKK) which it is not. In fact for those not familiar, this is usually not an issue (as it shouldn't be since sexual orientation is not the purpose or topic of scouts) and most of the time troops are rather autonomous from the national level and only if someone contacts them or brings it up does the national level get involved. As for regular weekly meetings ect, no one would know. Especially if one is an assistant leader vs the actual scoutmaster. Otherwise there is no preaching of hate against gays or other groups going on.

As to everything on the national level of gay rights, marriage ect, fine by me. Doesn't hurt me and I don't see any vaild reason they can't marry and hold the same staus in the eyes of the law. But on this level, I do agree with the rights of a private organization as if they choose to stay the course then that is there choice. Anyone can start their own club should they choose, that is a fact and a great thing about this country.

Another thing not mention or seemingly overlooked is who backs the scouts the most, churches. And that will also likely have to weigh heavy in the decisions as well. Even though if they change the rule it won't be like they are openly supporting gays or really anything like that, just saying they don't care, which is what is needs to be but some of the main churches who support them likely won't see it that way. The BSA needs those supporters and should they stop supporting will the gay community come to their aid if the BSA needs it financially or will they leave the scouts high and dry and move onto their next target?

So in the end all I'm saying is I think it is time they change, that change will come at some in the near future, but there are many factors and most importantly whatever happens needs to be in the best long term interest for the BSA, so it can maintain its goals and mission, and for its main member group, which are young boys; of whom most of this debate means nothing too. I hope that whatever they do decide that all will respect it and that most importantly the BSA can continue on trying to full fill its main mission. If that means tabling this for a couple more years then so be it, I will give on that since no real hate is preached or goes on and the BSA has plenty of other high values and acts that more than make up for this one black mark.

Revelator7 said: It isn't about whether gays have the right to join the BSA...its about the BSA's constitutional right to exclude them.

Precisely. The problem is that the U.S. Supreme Court in the Dale case only upheld that right in a 5-4 decision. The BSA's right to free association precariously hinged on one justice's vote. If the BSA ever voluntarily changes its policy on homosexual leadership or if it is compelled to do so sometime in the future, it will mark the beginning of the end for the Boy Scouts of America as there will be a mass exodus of troops sponsored by organizations that do not support the "normalization" of a homsexual lifestyle.

It's NOT private, I don't care how it's listed!!! They use taxpayer's buildings AND they accept federal subsidies (more taxpayer $$$$$)!! A truly private company does not do that so if they wanna have their rules, stop using taxpayer $$$$ and PUBLIC buildings!!

Kids that young shouldn't be having sex, so they are too young to be claiming they have a "sexual preference". Any kid at that age claiming to be gay or straight needs to be looked at for signs of abuse.

Slight difference, at very young ages you can find sexual attraction. It may be indicative of eventual sexual preference, but not always as qualities for attraction can be confusing at that age. Higher development of a person's sexual maturity will tell what their actual attraction is, removed from non-gender qualities.

why are 11, 12, and 13 year olds saying they are 'gay'? Kids that young shouldn't be having sex, so they are too young to be claiming they have a "sexual preference". Any kid at that age claiming to be gay or straight needs to be looked at for signs of abuse.

That's nonsense. You base that idea on what? The popular, unsupported theory that to be gay, you had to be sexually abused as a child? Sexual orientation is constant. It does not change, nor is it determined by the sexual acts you engage in. I had my first crush on a boy at 8 years old. I was gay before I even knew what being gay was. When I learned what it meant, I realized it identified me. I knew I was gay nearly a full decade before I was sexually active.

I was never abused. I was raised in a stable, two parent home. My parents will soon celebrate their 40th wedding anniversary. Kinda shoots your theory to hell, doesn't it?

Look, lots of people used to believe black people were unclean and if you let them swim in the same swimming pool as whites, the whites would catch diseases. They really believed there was medical evidence to back this up. There wasn't.

It's the same situation. There is no evidence to support the claim that being gay is a product of childhood abuse. You've heard it repeated time and again, so you think it's true. It's not.

Falconer and daundadog - private companies get money from the government all the time, and the BSA is not directly funded or supported by the government. While I agree in most cases it needs to be eliminated it still happens but at least it is going to a group that actually does some good. Take out the issue of this debate and the gay policy they have, are they a bad group? Do they preach hate? Tell me what else is so bad about them? Oh they don't let girls in the regular troops, I guess that's it (but they do have female leaders and other groups like venture crew that does). All I'm saying is look at the bigger picture and don't let one single issue bog you down. I think they need to change too but as I said above many other factors at play here. And besides, how much money do you think they really get? I'm guessing a drop in the bucket compared to other companies, and groups of individuals, out there that are really screwing over the taxpayers by not either paying taxes or by receiving large tax breaks, subsidies, or other incentives. Those are the ones we should be worried about, not the BSA which is a small fish.

I like how a lot of these people talk about how the Boy Scouts shouldn't have to change for people outside of the organization. Well I am an Eagle Scout and I also have a good friend who also got his Eagle Scout and (Gasp) he is gay. He didn't come out until after High School, but we knew was gay. And guess what, being around him growing up not a single one of my other friends turned out gay.

@ Prohibition Doesn't Work

"why are 11, 12, and 13 year olds saying they are 'gay'? Kids that young shouldn't be having sex, so they are too young to be claiming they have a "sexual preference". Any kid at that age claiming to be gay or straight needs to be looked at for signs of abuse."

What are you talking about? 13 year olds are in the 7th grade. I was all about trying to french kiss and finger bang girls at that age.

@Leatherneck918

I'm trying hard not to insult you, but if you think being gay is the same as screwing animals and dead people I don't think we can even have a reasonable discussion and you have already proven you're so closed minded that you think any opinion but your own is wrong. I'm not gay my self but as I said earlier I have a good friend who is and my wife's aunt is also gay. I have never seen anything from them being gay that has hurt my life. So I don't see what the big deal is as long as they are happy.

Study: Homosexuality Linked with Childhood Trauma DUNEDIN, New Zealand, July 26, 2010 (LifeSiteNews.com) -- A recent Otago University study has found that homosexual or bisexual individuals are more likely to have undergone a variety of of traumas in childhood, including sexual assault, rape, violence, and witnessing violence in the home.

"People who either identify themselves as homosexual or bisexual, or have had a same-sex encounter or relationship, tend to come from more disturbed backgrounds," said Research Associate Professor Elisabeth Wells.

The study analyzed results from a New Zealand Mental Health study that surveyed about 13,000 people between 2003 and 2004. 98% of the participants in the study identified themselves as heterosexual; 0.8% identified as homosexual; 0.6% identified as bisexual; and 0.3% identified as "something else."

Of people who reported certain traumatic childhood events, 15% were not heterosexual; of those without such experiences, only 5% were not heterosexual, suggesting that such experiences TRIPLED the chance of later professing homosexual or bisexual inclinations.

Sexual Identity Confusion (Transgenderism, Homosexuality) Caused by Emotional Trauma -----

Peter Dimrock (MSW) said: "Many men who were sexually abused (especially those abused by other men), are confused about their sexual/affectional preference." (The National Organization on Male Sexual Victimization (NOMSV) website)

We Must Promote and Pursue Healing and Wholeness, NOT Political Activism -----
It DOES matter whether people are born gay or not. True and correct science matters.
And since homosexuality is caused by emotional trauma, ignoring this SCIENTIFIC FACT will result in more gay suicides. Emotional trauma requires healing and resolution and much love and understanding, not politics.
Telling someone who is gay that they didn't experience any emotional trauma and that they're just fine is completely insensitive at best and mean-spirited at worst.

Rev,

I've never said that the BSA doesn't have a right to pick and choose membership. However, that doesn't make their policy on homosexuality logical, nor does it add credence to any of the paranoid drivel being posted on this vine.

And I agree with Falconer, if you're going to discriminate, you should not have tax exempt status or any access to public funds. Or whatever it is the BSA gets. We shouldn't as a society, be sanctioning discrimination by any means.

Revelator,

You are right that the BSA has a constitutional right to exclude homosexuals. However, this article is not about the government, or even outsiders, trying to make them change. This article is about board members, internal members, who want to change the policy.

Even more, the petition and the Eagle Scout who want to change this policy. I'm not about to force BSA to change their policies and I would stand right next to them if the gov't tried to impose its will on them. But since it's an internal debate, I say have at it.

Falconer and daundadog - private companies get money from the government all the time, and the BSA is not directly funded or supported by the government

Ok, I'll bite. First, name one of these companies that discriminates against anyone. Oh yeah, they can't because of anti-discrimination laws. As far as direct funding in 2008 an Alaskian group was set to receive $1 million dollars from HUD. Problem here is to receive said funding they can't discriminate. OOPS! Lets add tax-exempt status that they and churches shouldn't have, discounted or free use of government buildings, the Pentagon forking over some $10 million over 10 or 20 years to help fund their jubilee thing. Please, try and be honest.

We Must Promote and Pursue Healing and Wholeness, NOT Political Activism -----
It DOES matter whether people are born gay or not. True and correct science matters.
And since homosexuality is caused by emotional trauma, ignoring this SCIENTIFIC FACT will result in more gay suicides. Emotional trauma requires healing and resolution and much love and understanding, not politics.
Telling someone who is gay that they didn't experience any emotional trauma and that they're just fine is completely insensitive at best and mean-spirited at worst.

Anyone know what this person is on about?

Falconer,

It's a spambot. We've reported it, but feel free to do so again. Super annoying.

Anyone know what this person is on about?

They are a bot that appears on any article mentioning homosexuality. They post their drivel over and over, but will never answer anyone else.

Its a spam bot for some company, can't remember which.

Thank you, explains alot.

Are any of you familiar with the term systematic de-sensitization? It is how our society has arrived at it's present set of mores. It happens when there is an absence of absolute values in a society, organization, family etc. Not judging. Just saying.

"Systematic de-sensitization, in its traditional sense, is the process of gradually introducing yourself to something that you feel anxious about, bit by bit, so that you eventually experience it in its entirety over a period of time. The reasoning behind the method is that people normally feel anxious about something because they experience the full situation at the one time or over a very short period of time (e.g. suddenly being thrust into speaking to a large group of strangers) so by expanding the exposure time and gradually introducing them to it, small chunks at a time, it is not as overwhelming and they relax because the situation becomes more and more familiar and they build confidence with each step."

Thinker,

If you're saying those of us that are sane trying to end discrimination against homosexuals there is one problem. Homosexuality has been around as long as recorded history and probably before. It is found in cultures from the Spartans to the samurai, nothing new. Its about one group of people, we know who they are, that like to make people different from them second class citizens.

If not, ok.

Leatherneck, the greatest neurobiologist on earth!

"its ok to be a bestiality." (sic...and sick)

I can't stop laughing! You really made my day with this one! Thanks for sharing your profound stupidity with everyone.

Here's the thing. I work for a non-profit organization that would LOVE to host events for Boy Scouts of America. But we would have had to sign affidavits attesting to knowledge of the private actions and activities of not only our employees but also our vendors and other visitors. With 600 employees and tens of thousands of visitors each year there was no way we could declare we basically are a "gay-free" environment. We're not demanding that BSoA change their rules - but I would imagine it gets harder and harder to find companies that can comply. They can shield them all they want, but there's no guarantee that in 20 years the sweet little old lady a Boy Scout helps cross the street isn't Melissa Etheridge.

Seeker. I'm not making a judgement on whether homosexuality is right or wrong for anyone. Nor are my comments intended to be discrimitory. None of us are worthy to pronounce a "judgement' on anyone else. Discernment...that is another matter. I am simply discerning how the homosexual agenda has been taken out of the closet and has been mainstreamed in modern society, mostly by the media, films etc.

Brilliant strategy and, so far, well executed actually. The technique is also in play across several other social values with others that have similar agendas. Only time can tell whether any of this influence will be good or bad for our society.

Suggested prescription - less consumption of multi-media without applying "critical thinking" techniques. Mindless robots are too easily controlled by the systematic de-sensitization method.

falconer - well got to be honest hard to find right off but believe it or not those loser KKK guys appear to have got some to help support breast cancer screening or something. And there are groups that don't openly admit it but behind closed doors they do discriminate and the money they get goes to support only select groups or it's very hard for others outside of those groups to access that money.

But whatever the case, anti-discrimination or not my point was money is wasted on many groups, that one could argue don't do anything really positive, by our government that could be better spent and or groups that actually could pose a threat or not have Americas best interest at heart. Assuming you were indicating this was a waste for the government to spend money on the BSA, if not and only because of this one policy they have I admittedly see your point that they probably shouldn't give them money, if only looking at that point. I was at least trying to bring attention to the fact that the BSA still does alot of good regardless of this policy so even though this one thing is bad, there are groups that are way worse, so don't condemn them for this one act. You say "jubilee thing" so that to me indicates you have no real experience with them and are jumping on a band wagon writing them off as a hate group which they are not. Please see the bigger picture and look at my whole post, not just part.

I'd say your point about churches and the tax exempt part is more right on since there have been several that have openly preached against gays and whould along the lines of what you suggest. This being something the BSA has never done nor have I seen, and again this whole thing is something thats on more of the national level as it usually is not brought up or a concern on local troop levels, which as I've said or more or less autonomos most of the time from the national level -not some direct interaction or weekly orders given out.

But as my other post said, I think they need to change, and it will happen (sooner than later), but I want them to do it on there own as much as possible and doing what we can to tear them down or condeme them now until they change there policies (bully them) is no better and when weighing the pros of scouting vs the cons I'd say its easily in our best interest to keep supporting them and allowing them some extra benefits from time to time. Even until they finally change this.

But to one of my other points, and this isn't trying to be negative and is really a legit question, BSA says ok anyone can join we won't limit openly gay people anymore, are there that many gays who want into scouts? If this has other major issues like churches dropping support ect. and forces reductions in what the BSA can do/does for financial reasons (hopefully that won't happen if they do say yes), is the gay community or special interests groups going to step in and help promote scouts or leave them high and dry and look for another target? Also the media circus aside, how many in the gay community really see this as a driving force or target to get them equality? Are the boy scouts really that big of an issue to them? To me this has importance but is not really going to change anything like say federal approval of gay marriage.

btldriver said:

And for those that are bisexual, your life style is definetly a choice. Gays can claim they were born that way but for bisexuals you are chosing to have sexual relationships with both men and women, so really you folks need to keep out of the conversation.

As a bisexual person, I'll politely disagree with you on that.

I'm not 'choosing to have sexual relationships with either men or women'. It MAY be true of some bi's, but not all. I have sex with people I love. It doesn't matter to me what gender they are. I don't choose who I fall in love with, it just happens, and they can't choose their gender, so for me, being bi is not a 'choice'. My husband is the only man I have ever fallen in love with, but there have been several women.

There are clubs for black only. There are clubs for white only. Maybe they should creat The Gay Scouts of America.

But to one of my other points, and this isn't trying to be negative and is really a legit question, BSA says ok anyone can join we won't limit openly gay people anymore, are there that many gays who want into scouts

Thats exactly my thought also, but would you really want to be a part of something that discriminates against your parents?

As far as the KKK thing, there is a difference between getting some type of grant or something (whatever it was) and being tax-exempt. The KKK doesn't get free use or discounted use of government property for example. Churches dropping support....guess they would be showing their true colors.

There are clubs for white only.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I doubt that contributions to the KKK are tax-deductible.

Sarah, after reading your responses on here. I came to the conclusion: I think I love you.

WHY ARE ALL THE CONSERVATIVE VIEWS COLLAPSED AND ALL THE LIBERAL ONES STAND OUT? IT MAKES ME THINK THAT MSNBC HAS THEIR OWN POLITICAL AGENDA ON THIS.

Another thing, does SARAH work for MSNBC? Why are her views up top the only ones that are NOT collapsed?

The Boys SCouts of America does not have to let gays serve. All the political pressure done by MSNBC and the LGBT community will not change that. They receive no federal funds, and they have a right to run their organization as they see fit.

I don't see MSNBC catering to the Christian community? Afterall, wouldn't it be nice if they had Christians in their editoring room where they have an equal say as to what gets published? Furthermore, it would be nice if they too did not discriminate against the christian community. I think MSNBC should allow Christians to determine what gets printed on their site!!!!!!!!! WHO'S WITH ME? Afterall, isn't that the gay community is doing?

Too much pandering to those on the Left Wing is all this story is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For those who keep mentioning Girl Scouts - please be aware that the GSA does NOT discriminate based on sexual orientation. As for whether the BSA has the right to deny membership as a private organization, well, yes, they do. The debate here is based on MEMBERS of the BSA who feel this policy is outdated and are asking the organization to change. This is not being imposed on BSA externally. In the case of a boy with lesbian parents whose mother was removed as a den leader - if kids seeing her and her partner were at risk, then are they not just as much at risk if this boy attends Scout-sanctioned events with his family? Do you then kick the boy out based on his parent's sexual orientation? That would seem to deviate from the goal of "helping boys become men". Or should he just be written off as a lost cause? I know many youth in Boy Scouts who are gay - they've been Scouts their whole lives, from heterosexual families - and yet they are who they are. I think all boys (and girls as well - girls can join BSA as Venturing Scouts) benefit from what the BSA teaches. That's why my kids are members, but we have always been open with the kids about how we disagree with the policy on homosexuals. We recognize that we'll never agree 100% with any organization, but this is a pretty big sticking point.

I feel the need to bring up a little American history again. It's relevant and it bears retelling. I'm not actually thinking that my narrative is going to change anyone's mind, but it will give some of you some food for thought. Maybe help some people cope psychologically with what's going on and how this whole "gay rights" situation is going to turn out.

Before and during the Civil War Christian denominations, mostly south of the Mason Dixon line, used Bible verses to justify slavery as a holy and righteous thing. If you go back and read books like Leviticus you'll see that there are scriptures in the Bible that actually say it's okay to own slaves, beat them, and even physically mark them as your own territory. Southern white Christians in particular justified the owning of black people by saying that their skin color was the "mark of Cain".

Skip forward a bit. Women's sufferage. Up until the 1920's women were denied the right to vote. This basic civil right and other rights like equal pay for equal work were repressed by a Christian majority. They quoted dozens of Bible verses from the Old and New Testaments stating how women were inferior to men, should be subserviant to men, and should not be allowed to teach or hold any position of authority over men. Yeah, those verses are in there, and a lot of Christian opponents of women's sufferage made all kinds of arguments and rationalizations as to why and how women should not be allowed eqaul rights to men because it says so in the Bible.

About the same time in history as women's sufferage we have the Prohibition era. Evangelicals cited Bible passages about how drunkeness was a sin and extrapolated from that the idea that alchohol was at the root of all criminality in the world. They then got the idea that if alcohol were made illegal and weren't sold anywhere that no one would drink it and crime would dissappear. They managed to convince congress of this and as a result it became a federal crime to possess, make, sell, or drink alcohol. In spite, or because of, this law the production, sales, and consumption of alcohol boomed across all parts of the nation from the rich to the poor and the Italian Mafia experience a golden age in the USA.

Fast forward to the 1960s. Civil Rights movement for black people. Most visibly this was opposed by a powerful organization of white protestant Americans known as the Klu Klux Klan, whose membership was at 4 million at the peak of its power. Racism against black people is a carry over from the days of slavery, but the arguments against the equal rights of African Americans is less grounded in the Bible than they are on stereotypes of black people, even though the "mark of Cain" is still referenced. Much of the discrimination was carried on until the late 1990s by such Christian organizations as the Southern Baptist Church.

I may be off on one or two minor details, but they are minor and do not detract from the overall historical accuracy of my narrative. Some may want to deny that these positions were held by Christians, some will claim that the Christians who did these things weren't "true Christians". Whatever the case anyone here who has had a high school education in our nation's history will know how these situations turned out and the negative impact that the positions held by these Christian groups had on countless people.

Contemplate the outcomes and consequences of these chapters of our nation's history. Whether you agree with the direction of my narrative or not, contemplate these next words carefully: the gay rights issue is next.

First things first, I have no problem with gay people. I support their right to marriage, and I don't even care if they use the word "spouse". To each his/her own.

That being said, I do not think BSA should change its policy. I would not send my son into the woods with a group of gay men for the same reason I wouldn't send my daughter into the woods with a group of straight men. This is setting the stage for sexual assault and rape. Straight and gay people alike are capable of these things.

Sarah,

Do you mean deny funds to groups that discriminate against....oh, I don't know....unborn children....like Planned Parenthood?

Unhappy,

I'm going to make you even unhappier! First, do a very simple search on government funding of BSA and you will see you're wrong. Period.

As far as you poor persecuted christians, I think you should read this. It's written by a christain but still spot on.

http://witnesstograce.com/2012/05/29/the-christian-victim-complex/

Rev,

Just as soon as you can scientifically prove when humanity begins, and that the fetus is an "unborn child" and not, well, a fetus. Now, I'm assuming you're speaking of abortion, in which case the Hyde Amendment prohibits any and all public money from being used on abortions.

Now, before you give me that, "money is fungible" crap, think of it like a bank. You don't get the same $100 bill you deposited back, when you withdraw $100, but the loss to the bank is the same.

Money is fungible, math is not.

Scen,

Thanks, buddy!

Princess Bride....you are right, the GSA doesn't have restrictions (in fact it welcomes and encourages lesbians to join) about sexual orientation. However, the GSA doesn't have the Christian background that the BSA has. In context, the GSA is but a pale shadow of the original.

On a happier note, the state of WA is going to overturn the gay marriage law that Christine Gregouire unleashed on her unsuspecting constituency. The overwhelming response is already demonstrative of how galvanizing this issue could be for social conservatives. The referendum to repeal the gay marriage law got more than twice the necessary signatures. When will liberals and gays, in particular, learn not to pull on the tigers tail? If North Carolina can do it, Washington, with a much broader rural/conservative base will overturn this bad law.

Happily rev churches that still have the dark ages mentallity are hemorrhaging people and will go the way of the dinosaur.

NEW YORK (CBS NEWS) - A new study that finds that children of a gay or lesbian parent may be more likely to have social and emotional problems. The study has sparked controversy on both sides of the same-sex marriage debate.

The study, from Mark Regnerus, an associate professor of sociology at The University of Texas at Austin, surveyed more than 15,000 Americans between the ages of 18 and 39, asking them questions about their upbringings. Its findings are published in the July issue of Social Science Research.

One survey question asked whether a parent had been in a same-sex relationship during a child’s upbringing. Regnerus wanted to see whether there were differences between kids raised in a household by a parent in a same-sex relationship compared with those who were raised by biological parents who were married and heterosexual. The survey results were measured by a set of 40 outcomes on social, emotional and relationship factors. Outcomes included whether a child had grown up to need public assistance like welfare, were more likely to have anxiety or depression, were more likely to be abused, or were more apt engage in unhealthier habits such as having more sexual partners, smoking or using drugs.

The analysis identified 175 now-adult children who said they were raised by a lesbian mother, along with 73 who said their father was in a same-sex relationship. Focusing on the larger sample, the study found respondents whose mother had a same-sex relationship fared worse on 24 of the 40 tested outcomes, compared with children of an intact heterosexual couple.

Yet overall nationally more and more people are realizing that there is nothing intrinsically or pragmatically wrong with homosexuality in an of itself. It is a matter of time before the people of the country bring it to the federal level and get a constitutional amendment put in place to protect gay marraige and gay rights in a way that supercedes the ability of states to ban gay marraige. Give it about ten years. Maybe twenty.

Bill,

Does the study go into how the children were treated by their peers? My thought being if you're treated like garbage by your peers (no matter your family) you suffer from it.

Man,

Look at the "racial purity law" that prohibitted whites from marrying non-whites. That ended in 1964 I think.

falconer - it is an interesting question and does make me wonder. But yes I don't disagree that not having a parent involved could be hard for a kid and its always good for the parents to be involved, though not overly at the same i.e. helicopter parents. At any rate the BSA doesn't openly preach against it and even in my experience just a parent attending (who is gay) or participates is usually not a problem. Its if they try to join and be a true active adult leader then more can come off it but depending on the troop and how seriously active the parent still usually not a problem. Just stating what I know not defending the policy or trying to downplay it but that there can still be involvement unless someone in the troop is D*ck and really objects. But this will change in time and we will just have to see how this plays out, I just hope the BSA doesn't get kicked harder than they should eitherway they decide.

I think Princess Bride has it right in the most practicle terms, and kinda like I've been saying, this one issue aside the BSA is still a great group and good for kids, but she seems she actually acts like a parent and explains this policy and what is wrong with it to her kids. I know doesn't directly help someone who is getting denied but at least it does reinforce the understanding of something that is wrong and not having to fully support an organizations beliefs but at the same time still trying to focus on the core values of scouts not some of the other stuff that is really not part of the everyday scouting experience. The last part about trying to find 100% is true, sometimes there is some compromise and thinking about it, can you really ever be 100% in line? Surely there will always be something you might not agree with, big or small.

I've got one thought on this matter: if the Boy Scouts of America rescind the anti-gay policy, that's a whatever in my book. Next, of course, will be those who practice bestiality (spellcheck), then polygamists, then necrophiliacs.

Now I've got a question: where does "acceptance and tolerance" end and common sense and good judgment begin?

Now I've got a question: where does "acceptance and tolerance" end and common sense and good judgment begin?

Not with posting that obviously! LOL!

National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency

In June, NGA honors the many contributions its of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender employees.

Just thought I'd throw that in there. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, want to work for these guys!

leatherneck, while most people are bisexual, that has been proved in scientific studies, being gay is not a choice. Being bisexual, well then you can choose, that is very nice for most of you. Nice that you can choose to comply with society. Studies have also proved that most homophobic attitudes are from laden homosexuality. It's terrible to hate your self and worse to inflict that misdirected hatred toward others. There is counseling out there.

Sarah, you are a breath of fresh air, I wish there were more people like you in the world . My wife and I think you are awesome {{{HUGS}}}. To the man in the article, I think this guy is showing what true morals are if even considering that he puts as just an opinion. Here we are, well into the 21st century and bigotry still has us denoting who we are as people, whether by ethnic classification or sexual orientation. People are just people and more importantly, love is love, it can't be challenged.

NoahDenver, did you even read the article? This is about the Cub Scouts. The boy involved is 7 years old. Cub scouts do not go out to the woods to camp. And homosexual does not mean pedephile.

Leatherneck said:

if you think being gay is ok then you must think beingnecrophiliac or doing bestiality is OK too. Why its the same sick and twisted perversion.

Whoa.

I volunteer at an animal shelter. About a year ago, we got a call from the police dispatch unit asking for Animal Control's help with a dog. The AEO got there (Animal Enforcement Officer) and found a medium-sized pug mix who had been molested by her owner. Six people in the apartment building herd this dog screaming and called police thinking it was a child; police got there and found this guy tied down his dog and molested her. She was terrified and had a major hemorrhaging rectal prolapse, refused to allow anyone to touch her and just screamed the whole time.

The AEO brought her back in the truck as a medical emergency but there was absolutely nothing anyone could do. That dog was so traumatized she refused to let anyone near her, howled when anyone tried to touch her, and cowered in a corner whimpering and crying. It took nearly an hour for a female vet tech to get close enough to her to pet her, and another half hour to get her calmed enough to slip a needle with euthanasia drug into her foreleg to put her to sleep.

I can't even begin to describe what it was like to have to stand there and watch that. So I take STRONG exception to your equating bestiality with being gay/lesbian. Don't even go there.

"It isn't about whether gays have the right to join the BSA...its about the BSA's constitutional right to exclude them."

You are right, but along with that right should be the right of the American people to end their tax exempt status. If you discriminate, you don't deserve MY tax money. I was an Eagle scout, and I refused to allow my sons to join the BSA because of their archaic rules.

It should come as no surprise that predators are seeking access to an organization where they can prey on young boys! There seem to be a lot of people who now see homosexuality as a ok. Next they will be pushing for the right to marry their pets and claim that animal love is the same as that between a man and a women and they will be wrong on that too!

Steve is trying to pass himself off as a self-appointed expert on pedophiles. He assumes that all homosexuals have a penchant for preying on young boys, and then takes a huge leap into suggesting that people who don't condemn homosexuality will then push for "the right to marry their pets".

Tell us, Steve - are you a member of the GOP? I suspect so, because it's this type of binary logic that is so prevasive in that party...

After slogging through all these comments, it is apparent that NONE of you were involved in Scouts as an adult leader. I was for 28 years; weekly meetings, weekend campouts, summer camps, training courses, you name it I did it. And I wholeheartly support the ban on gays, lesbians and pedophiles being a member of Boy Scouts of America. And since a few national board members do not favor the ban, it's time to replace them.

It's very hard to control a group of boys aged 11 - 17 when hormones are raging. Add to the mix a homosexually oriented individual, boy or adult, things will and do happen. I have seen it happen up close and personal. Luckily those folks were either ferretted out or placed in a state institution with bars.

The whole purpose of the ban is to "nip-it-in-the-bud". Keep the predator away from the prey and vice versa.

And for you folks that think that BSA gets a bunch of money from the Feds, think again. Thanks to the Obama administration, BSA has lost money, meeting places and the National Jamboree site just because the US Supreme Court ruled BSA COULD exclude gays, lesbians and pedophiles. BSA is not PC for the current adminstration.

And a personal comment to Ourdoc. I noticed you spoke of being an Eagle Scout in the past tense. I am very sorry you think your WERE an Eagle Scout. I always taught my Eagle Scouts that once you are an Eagle Scout you are ALWAYS an Eagle Scout, never was or were an Eagle Scout. Nothing and nobody can EVER take that away from you. You earned that rank and you deserve to be an Eagle Scout for the rest of your life.

And I wholeheartly support the ban on gays, lesbians and pedophiles being a member of Boy Scouts of America. And since a few national board members do not favor the ban, it's time to replace them.

Your problem is you confuse homosexuality with pedophilia. They are not a guaranteed inclusive, just like heterosexuality and pedophilia are not a guaranteed inclusive.

You are merely fearmongering.

And I wholeheartly support the ban on gays, lesbians and pedophiles being a member of Boy Scouts of America

This is why my boys will never join, and I stopped taking my birds to scout events.

And for you folks that think that BSA gets a bunch of money from the Feds, think again. Thanks to the Obama administration, BSA has lost money, meeting places and the National Jamboree site just because the US Supreme Court ruled BSA COULD exclude gays, lesbians and pedophiles. BSA is not PC for the current adminstration

Yes, and I couldn't be happier. One move this administration made I support!

texasbluedarter, how convenient for you to lump all into one nice package: gays, lesbians, and pedophiles. Afterall we all know that all gays and lesbians abuse children, right?

I now see why they are addressing this now. It doesn't work....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-boyscouts-abusebre85d1a1-20120614,0,2923822.story

They work so hard trying to keep gay/lesbians out they open the doors for the pedophiles! This also explains why they like to lump them together, an attempt to blur the issue. Another reason to keep my boys far away.

tyler is a god amongst Newsvine!

falconer .. regarding the Masons, what you say was true at one time, but no longer. We have had the privilege of sitting in lodge with many Brethren of color .. many colors .. many faiths ... and all at once. This is something we are most pleased to be able to say.

There are still Lodges which are primarily African American ... and it will take a long time to fully combine them, as not all wish to be combined ... and there are many ... but the AF&AM ... as far as I can tell, is more concerned with the integrity of the man within ...as are we ...

No I Do Not , If I Did HeShe SheHe would be on their own

What a sad sad little man you are. I'd prefer that my children grow up heterosexual (because I'd like to have grandchildren of my lineage), but I'll be there for them regardless of their preferences.

No I don't. And I wouldn't think any less of them if I did! I don't care if being gay is something that happens at birth, in early childhood (environment), or as a maturing person: It is not evil, it is natural. It is part of what we are (as a people) and denying it (being homophobic) is the worst thing that can happen! YMMV

No I Do Not , If I Did HeShe SheHe would be on their own

Then you are a failure to your own god.

Joe Quint

I bet you do. We ALL do. I wouldn't want to come out to you either. You're horrible

Joe Quint

"No I Do Not , If I Did HeShe SheHe would be on their own"

You sound like a real peach.

that would be their business, not yours or mine.

My guess is that Joe Quint is a rather aged man...and in complete denial about his family.

OR a Friend who is gay? Does that make them so much different than you---not at all!

Do 2 lesbians raise a gay child--not usually and 2 gay guys could raise a non-gay son or daughter

Me too Bart. He's clueless

Ed, why do people assume that because someone doesn't accept homosexuality as normal is homophobic, not saying you do but your post brings up a question in my mind? I'm not afraid of gay people, if I were I wouldn't work where I do. I, and others like me, have no problem with gay people. They are generally nice folks. I just don't agree with their lifestyle choice and don't think gay people need special treatment. I know there are people who are truly afraid of gays and think its a disease they might catch but I think these people are fewer than suggested.

@ed peters, it is not NATURAL!

If youre talking about animals then something wrong with that, reason being that animal are lower form then humans, animal go by instincts, while human have reasoning. if you cannot control one then you have a mental problem. think about it. oh wait you cant.

why do people assume that because someone doesn't accept homosexuality as normal [then that person] is homophobic[?]

Because there is no rational reason not to accept homosexuality as normal. It occurs naturally (i.e. throughout nature); ergo, it is normal. More to the point, it causes no harm. Therefore, resisting it is an irrational response and is therefore most logically characterized as an irrational fear (i.e. a phobia).

Or can you anti-gay types identify any harm caused by homosexuality that isn't the direct result of social ostracism? ("True LGBT string-of-numbers" is merely a copy/paste troll, and need not apply.)

Mister Whoops,

It is natural because it occurs in nature, the very definition of natural. As a matter of fact, to suppress your desires is unnatural. So, if you'd like to go find yourself another man, stop being so repressed and find one. Really, you'll feel much better and less stressed.

@Mister Whoops - if you're going to reject anything that's not natural then gay people are the least of your problems. For starters, you're going to have to jettison that PC or mobile device you're using to post here.

@Mister Whoops:

"it is not NATURAL! If youre talking about animals then something wrong with that, reason being that animal are lower form then humans, animal go by instincts, while human have reasoning."

I've got news for you, Mister Whoops. First, as you imply, yes, humans are animals, too. Second, humans, being animals, also have instincts. Third, sexual attraction among humans is an instinct, not something that involves reasoning. When you see (I presume) a hot woman you're very attracting to, do you stop and reason about the attraction before you feel it, or is the attraction instantaneous? Yeah, thought so, you animal!

Ask your self do you have a family member that is Gay

Well I feel like I'm a woman in a man's body who is a Lesbian so I still like women...........does that count?

The ONLY perversion is the hate & fear people choose to promote...........

Right on Peace

its not about hate, its about knowing whats right and whats wrong, you gays, will always think its right, its okay to love someone, just dont MAKE LOVE to them!.

You love your animals right?? Just dont MAKE LOVE to them!

See its a mental issue. just because you have two person of the same sex with the same idea, doesnt make it right.

[it's] not about hate, [it's] about knowing [what's] right and [what's] wrong

OK, then. Fair enough. Assuming "right" and "wrong" relate in some way to causing harm / doing good, then, what harm does homosexuality cause that is not purely the result of social ostracism? If something does no harm, then by what definition is it "wrong"?

I can correctly assume Mister Whoops is basing his belief on the bible. Shall we start a list of social harm the bible has caused?

thFan - That is just wrong and inflammatory. You obviously were not a Boy Scout. There is no teaching of hate, ever. Like a poster above said, the BSA focuses on positive values. Don't remember homosexuality ever coming up, and if it did, the correct BSA response would be one of respect for your fellow humans, even if you have different beliefs and opinions.

You do realize the majority of pedophilia incidents are straight men, preying on female children, right? You also realize that there is no link between homosexuality and pedophilia, correct?

You know, I'm sure, that pedophilia isn't about sex, per se, but power and control, whereas homosexuality occurs between two consenting adults and is about sexual attraction?

Sarah-3043284: majority of pedophilia incidents are straight men, preying on female children, right?

Wrong, the Majority of Pedophilia are BI-Sexual and Pray on boys.

Leatherneck,

Source?

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

You might actually learn something.

You do realize that the vast majority of homosexuals are not pedophiles, and the vast majority of pedophiles are not homosexual, right? Most cases of child sexual abuse are by heterosexual relatives or close family friends of the victim. To say that allowing homosexuals to be scout leaders would increase pedophilia is frankly offensive. And what about the scouts themselves? Gay kids are kicked out the same as gay leaders. Do you think they're going to molest their friends? To suggest that these kids are going to be any more predatory to their male friends as the straight scouts are to their female friends is just silly.

Leatherneck, the word you are looking for is prey, not pray - unless you are talking about Catholic priests.

Sarah, Rodents, etc. - Sadly we are trying to educate the intentionally ignorant.

Don'tBe,

Alas, it's a slow day at work and I ain't got anything better to do. :)

Sarah - LOLs - fair enough. It is still amazing to me that these kinds of vitriolic reactions still exist - I'd say ignorance is bliss, but in this instance... apparantly ignorance is hate.

LOL! Leatherneck is getting his ass kicked by a girl!!! No offense Sarah, I find you posts to be some of the best I've read.

Hey average Jane

"ia few bad apples can and will spoil it for the rest"

Let's ask straight man Jerry Sandusky......SEE?

JTM,

Thanks, lol. If you think my internets ass kicking skills are impressive, you should see me in a bar fight! ;)

I am of the mind that they should not be in the scouts, it is a scout legacy that has been in affect for years. Now that scouts is a private entity it does have the right to have its own laws. Listen all of you that are for gays being in the scouts if you do not like, you do have a choice not to put your boys in the scouts. The boys may not like you for it. I am getting sick of people trying to force their beliefs on others.

BROOKE IN FT LAUDERDALE:

Let's ask straight man Jerry Sandusky.. HMM very contradicting there since his victims are BOYS and he is a MALE. That alone would not make him straight and since he is married to a WOMEN. That alone would make him BI-Sexual would it not?

The definition of BI sexual is no preference between male and female.

The definition of Straight is if you're a male you like females and if you're a female you like males.

The definition of Lesbians is you're a female and you like other females.

So for all the articles that say married man has sexual contact with a boy. That alone would not make him straight it would MAKE HIM BI.....

You know, I'm sure, that pedophilia isn't about sex, per se, but power and control, whereas homosexuality occurs between two consenting adults and is about sexual attraction?

Not always "legal" age, consenting youths also engage. As far as pedo's they all everywhere in society already, they care not what the organization is and can easily be in the BSA or the schools or even child protective services. We also use the term pedo too loosely see cases where the 18 yr old boy gets a label for life because of his 16 year old girlfriend. They were both consenting and nothing would have happened to the boy if he was 17yr 364 days old.

Sarah, read the article you posted, good article but when people say things like "On further examination, however, its central argument – that 'the evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls' – doesn't hold up," they need to add the caviot that they really don't know. One article suggests that men are raped at a higher rate than women but are afraid to come forward and report it, so the information in your article may be wrong, we don't know.

Oh Leatherman....... STOP.

Here's the link

Let's ask straight man Jerry Sandusky.. HMM very contradicting there since his victims are BOYS and he is a MALE. That alone would not make him straight and since he is married to a WOMEN. That alone would make him BI-Sexual would it not?

Pedophilia does not focus on gender. Regardless, he is merely a media sensationalized choice. Pedophiles follow societal trends for their % of heterosexual and homosexual numbers.

SO glad to hear BSA is examining their exclusionary policy! If they are trying to teach life skills, tolerance and acceptance should top the list. I understand they are a private organization, but if they accept federal funds, they need to be more inclusive.

For you closed minded posters...equating being gay to mental illness? Bestiality? COME ON! Nearly everyone I know who is gay knew who they were attracted to before they even knew what sex was. And being gay isn't solely about the act of sex, no more than it is in a straight relationship.

I am of the mind that they should not be in the scouts, it is a scout legacy that has been in [effect] for years. .... I am getting sick of people trying to force their beliefs on others.

Just thought I'd put those statements side-by-side and see if you notice anything.

Dave: LOL-thank you!!! (There are none so blind as those who just wont see..........)

LynrdSky - an 18-yr old with a 16-yr old is called statutory rape, not pedophilia.

You have to be considered prepubescent for it to be considered pedophilia. If it's with a sexually mature minor past the age of puberty it's considered statutory rape or "sexual assault", "rape of a child", "corruption of a minor", "carnal knowledge of a minor" etc. depending how it's defined in a given area.

From the BSA website: The BSA is a "values-based youth development organizations" that "provides a program for young people that builds character, trains them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develops personal fitness."

I think it's sad that they believe someone's sexual orientation somehow makes them less capable of teaching those values or responsibilities, or makes them less deserving of learning them.

It's not as if a gay leader is going to try to promote homosexuality; general tolerance and acceptance maybe - and why would anyone argue that those concepts are damaging?

It's not as if a gay youth is going to try to seduce his peers just because he's gay and they happen to be the gender he prefers. After all, do heterosexual men constantly try to hump women's legs in public just because they're there? Why is it that the homophobes think every gay person wants to hit on them.....because they're such a catch?

You can argue over whether homosexuality is genetic or a "choice" if you really want to (I don't), but you can't argue that judgment and intolerance are NOT choices. Nobody is born that way, they are taught those concepts. Chances are, the kids in BSA wouldn't even notice or think much of any perceived differences, if they weren't made into an issue by parents.

Why must everyone tolerate behaviour they don't deem acceptable? It has been said the being gay is OK...with whom? not me. That is simply an opinion, even if a million people think it is ok, that does not make it so. They knew the rules when they joined, don't like it, go down the road.

Why must everyone tolerate behaviour they don't deem acceptable?

You fail to differentiate between behavior that is harmless and behavior that actually hurts someone. Does homosexuality cause some harm that gives you a rational reason to believe it's not OK? If you can't articulate any, then your refusal to "tolerate" it is irrational.

Being GAY and attracted to MEN does not mean you're a PEDOPHILE and attracted to BOYS, they're two completely different things. So there's no logical reason to keep homosexuals out of (and completely isolated from) the Scouts (unless you're a homophobe!).

... so much of this has been well discussed ... so we do not enter the fray except for one point ... The Boy Scouts of America is a private organization ... but ... does this private organization accept any public funding? If so, how private is it? ... that makes a big difference in whether their policies are open to outside examination, one would think.

Sarah ... always nice to see you in action!

I'm not quite sure "sexual deprivation" is what you intended to convey? But then again, it makes about as much sense as the rest of the post. I have a son in Boy Scouts, and I have no problem with allowing "them" - as you put it - to be leaders. My son already knows adults who are in committed homosexual relationships. And he knows many people who are in committed heterosexual relationships. Scouting has a strict two-deep leadership policy in place to eliminate the possibility of sexual misconduct. And that's because "perverts" and "pedophiles" are not the same thing as homosexuals. Children need to be protected at all times, but they need to understand who they should be protected from. I would love to see Boy Scouts reverse this policy - it has long been an issue for me, but there is no comparable organization for my son to join. Thankfully Girl Scouts has a much more tolerant stance on sexuality.

Why ajcave

TYFYBS!

Was already opened centuries upon centuries ago. Irrelevant fearmongering.

Pandora's box? weren't we warned of that when they allowed blacks, jews, Italians, and Irish in too?

Fear mongering.

Dumb. Why do the uneducated think gays are pedophiles?

Yes, ALL the science on this shows that straight people are FAR MORE LIKELY to be pedophiles than gay people. If that's your fear, straights should be banned from the BSA.

If the BSA is receiving any sort of support from public agencies, such as government or lowered rent on city-owned buildings, support through organizations like United Way, etc. then they are opening themselves up to public support. When an organization opens themselves up to public support, I say they lose their right to be selective in who joins and they must therefore open themselves up. Want to stay private and selective? Then support yourself. Otherwise, let others in. Simple as that.

Your "let's be real" statement is not even close to being real. Predators don't always come in the form of gays. In most cases, it's straight men who are preying on children. Get your facts right if you want to "be real." You make it seem like letting a gay scout or scout leader in is going to spell the end of the road for the organization, and that by gays' presence alone, there will be no other safety nets in place. Most scout organizations have multiple leaders, and the safety of children is always a top priority. Do you really think predatory behavior is going to happen because someone gay got in? "Be real," Jane, and pull your head out of the sand. Gay people being in the scouts is not going to have an impact at all, just like allowing them to serve openly in the military hasn't brought the mass-hysteria and destroyed the cohesion of the team people predicted, being allowed to marry in 6 states hasn't impacted the "sanctity" of marriage and people aren't racing out to marry their dogs, cadavers and siblings. Denying anyone the same rights as someone else based purely on a manufactured difference is wrong, plain and simple. THAT'S being real.

Oh, and by the way, Jane....gays DO go into the scouts. I was one for years. Sexuality was NEVER a topic that came up. With the amount of exposure to the world kids get today from cable TV, the internet, etc., I have little doubt a gay person in the scouts today would even make an impression. Kids are a lot smarter than adults give them credit for.

Guess what everyone? It is a club and they don't want gay's, queers, homos, whatever you want to call it. Why does everyone and everything have to include all? It is called freedom of association

Please change your name. I'm a Hoosier and don't want to be associated with you nonsense.

Yes they are a private organization, and nobody here is saying that they "Have to do something". What is being discussed here is if they should change their view on gays. As the BSA is composed of board members that promote, alter, update the rules of the organization: The Rules are not written in stone, and are open to change. Also, as a national organization that relies on donations, ect. from many (including the US Government I believe) and volunteers, an open dialog is paramount! "My-Way or the Hi-Way" is a person with hatred's best friend.. YMMV

Yes, a private organization can do what it wants but it also needs to stay relevant in the modern age. If it stopped blacks, jews, Italians, and Irish from entering, would you join BSA?

If BSA stops gays, I wouldn't allow my kids to join a hateful organization.

The BSA is a private organization that has a right to tailor it's membership to those that fit their ideals and lifestyle.

Sure, it has such a right. But, it shouldn't receive any benefits under the tax code, and that includes allowing donors, such as AT&T, to receive a tax deduction. If they want to discriminate, it should be on an after-tax basis.

if its a private firm donating then thats the orginization problem, not the government, and if you dont want your kid joining a hateful orginization then thats yours. when people start telling company what to do with thier money and how to spend it, heck might as well not have a company at all.

just because the BSA thinks gay is wrong so be it, just dont join whats the big deal, its not a life or death situation. its just showing what it believes in.

The organization continues to receive public sponsorships. It claims to be a private organization, but receive public funds, and has used the courts to protect it's public monopoly as "scouts". Since they block the formation of other "private" organizations (scouts), they are a monopoly, and need to be treated as such.

The arguments here are exactly the same as separate water fountains for black kids and segregated schools. Notice alot of the former and current military posters REALLY hate it, their last bastion of finding someone they can look down from has been dissolved (Don't Ask Don't Tell repeal). Truly disappointing to see people who protect our freedoms show such a level of ignorance. Civil Rights would have never had passed had it been voted on. White men still need to have someone who is the <insert N-word here>. But in spite of them, we continue to make progress. We're lobbying to remove public funding for Boy Scouts in several states unless they have a serious dialogue on this discrimination.

Pedophiles are by nature bisexual, they do not differentiate between male and female. They are all about "any port in a storm".

Pedophiles can be of any sexuality, given that their focus is on age. However a psychological case can be made that all children (at a certain age) share similar visible physical characteristics that may be the key to the attractiveness to pedophiles. A form of visual androgyny. Could be worth investigating.

I agree with you, Bob, 100%.

Children are very impressionable at that age. It is bad enough that perverts sneak into this critical foundational institution to prey on the innocent....we certainly dont need to dignify the personality disorder they seek to promote as "normal"....which for many of us will never be normal.

Children will see that it is an acceptable lifestyle. They will discover their innate sexuality on their own, being around only heterosexuals has never prevented homosexuals from discovering themselves, and being around homosexuals will not prevent heterosexuals from doing the same. Completely idiotic fearmongering.

Lets not destroy one more pillar of America with perversion that has beccome glorified in our decadent age.

The only one destroying a pillar of America is you and your ilk: the pillar of equality.

allswell

Normal is subjective.

Natural is objective.

Homosexuality exists in over 1500 species in nature, hence it is natural.

#1096.1 - Wed May 9, 2012 1:23 PM EDT

@allswell - Here is one of your pillars you feel vehemently about!

Ah good, I was wondering when I'd hear from you again. Still wishing to repeat history?

What in my statement (from another article no less) do you believe I think is a pillar?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssssssssssuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupppppppp!!!!! (just like the beer commercial) Long time no see!! I see we are still debating the gay plight. This will not be solved on this forum or for a while, but since we was here I just wanted to say 'hi'....toodles!!!!

TSSB!!!!

Natural is objective.

Homosexuality exists in over 1500 species in nature, hence it is natural.

So you are saying youre asn animal, and not have evolved yet??

Feel sorry for you, i really do.

So when do you start killing your young since animals do that in the same amount of species that kill their young. Hmmm what you say about that??

See?? Hmm Not right?? hmmm

So you are saying youre asn animal, and not have evolved yet??

Humans are animals regardless of our evolution or intelligence. The point of the original statement is to refute the claim that homosexuality is "unnatural".

Mister,

We are animals. All humans are animals. The only difference is that we've developed consciousness. Stop thinking being human makes you so special.

There was a homosexual boy in my troop - same age as myself - but he hadn't really realized what his preferences were at that time. We went on many trips together and nothing ever happened - EVER. As an adult leader of a troop, I can attest to the fact that NO LEADERS I've ever been around are "getting it on" during trips, regardless of their orientation.

Later in Jr/Sr years of high school he had some trouble coming to grips with who he was and how society would view him...and though he had some difficulties with this, he still turned out to be a well rounded and respectful individual to everyone around him - and a very good friend. He didn't "come on to everyone" like so many Hollywood movie stereotypes want to present this, and that has never been my experience with anyone of LGBT preferences, and I grew up in California where many people don't hide their orientation. 40 years ago, there were probably local chapters where kids of "mixed-race" parents probably wouldn't have been welcome (hopefully that has become a thing of the past), because the "miscegenation" was considered sinful by some. Thankfully people and society can change over time, discarding antiquated ideas, and it is up to the BSA to keep up with where it's presently at.

If people leave Scouting because it no longer discriminates about sexual orientation, then they never understood what Scouting really is about. Period.

you dont want your kids be coming home and say.

"Johnny was touching me there in my private part. mom and it felt good"

then what will you say?? hmmm

its okay son if you like it them its okay.

Umm no!

"Johnny was touching me there in my private part. mom and it felt good"

I'd tell them is ok to like it but they shouldn't be doing that at their age, and go into a long discussion on sexual conduct.

If it was contact they did not agree to ("Johnny" grabbed him or some such), or this "Johnny" was an adult, then I'd get legal involved.

If the policy is changed, there will be a quiet exodus.

Good! People who can't get along with others who are different from themselves shouldn't be interacting with others. Moreover, I would guess there would be quite a few new members as well. My son, for example, agrees with me that because of their discriminatory policies, the Scouts are nothing he should be involved with. If the policy changed, I'd be happy to sign him up, and he'd be happy to join.

"Johnny was touching me there in my private part. mom and it felt good" ... then what will you say?? .. hmmm ...its okay son if you like it them its okay.

Well, depending on your son's age, that would the right response (assuming that "Johnny wasn't an adult and the touching was consensual). It would also be the perfect opportunity to discuss safer sex.

You do know there are female Boy Scout leaders as well as male, don't you? If ANY Scout leaders engaged in the behavior you describe, they would be booted - wouldn't matter if it was a man getting it on with a man or with a woman. Inappropriate behavior is not tolerated. Just like drinking of alcohol is against the rules. And really, if you're worried about your child being molested, what would be safer than having lesbians lead the troop? They're not interested sexually in males, so your boy would be safe!

when did you decide to be what ever you are?

I don't think our government CAN stay out of it...

To wit: I hear many of our fine military traditions place recruits with BSA experience at a higher rank than just a "joe off the street". As such, the Gov't is providing preferential treatment to a subset of our population (better pay, advancement, more responsibilty, etc) which some are excluded from due solely to their sexual orientation, which is morally wrong - and DISCRIMINATION.

Colleges and industry both look upon Scouts with a preferential eye when admitting & hiring...this to a subset of society based on adherence to a single sexual orientation...again discrimination.

As a Scout who learned that we need to speak up for those discriminated against and against "moral wrongs", I cannot stand by silently while this debate goes on. Remember - qui tacet consentit - "he who is silent, consents by that silence".

Also @AH-2100314, I think your argument of "opinions not being discrimination" was used by the bigots during the 60's to try to quell the Civil Rights movement, wasn't it? Time to step into the 21st century, dude...

Always,

Ooooh!! Latin! You sure know how to make a girl-geek's heart go a-flutter!

You are a credit to Scouting, and I hope you stay involved.

Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur.

... et Google facit eam omnes ita multo facilius, Non vobis videtur? :c)

Amen, brother!

Gays always seem to be on the attack. Why is it so wrong to be normal ?

well, zipper .... for years in their own country they have been put down, told they would go to hell, beaten up, and sometimes killed for being who they are ... now we do not know about you, but were someone to treat us that way, we would get downright mean ... but of course your perception is not any sort of reality ... there is no attack ... you have been told by those you trust ... ministers, whomever ... that that they are a threat to you ... so you see them that way ... that is just plain silly ... you have been misinformed ...

Good job MAX.

LET THEM HAVE THEIR FU*KING CLUB, WTF people? Why do a lot of you think you can tell a PRIVATE club who their members can be?

Complete nonsense. You know nothing of what those terms and oaths truly mean.

What's more we could use the removal of "duty to god" anyway. As an openly agnostic Eagle Scout, I never declared reverence to any god. I was respectful to those who did, and followed my own faith, which was an eclectic mixture of concepts without a "higher power".

A big part of "reverence" is the acceptance that No One Group has a monopoly on what god is/does, or even if there IS a god (yep, I just went there and played THAT card!)...

As such, agnostics and even athiests should be respected and welcomed. That's reverence...

Kudos, too, @allswell above for your repect for others! That's exactly what Scoouting should be teaching...

If the Boy scouts change their stance on Homosexuality it means they have caved to peer pressure and forgot the meaning of what it is to be a Boy Scout.

Being a leader means having the convictions and strength to be able to make a decision and stick to it and standing by your convictions. If the Boy scouts cave to this pressure then what makes them think they have the ability to train future leaders.

They will train a Bunch Of Obama's that will sway to whatever direction the wind is blowing next, whatever poll says is the most popular and expedient course, not what is right.

Brave. Yeah right. Cowards change their convictions at other peoples whim.

Boy Scouts fight your fight and do the right thing.

Vote to Toke!!!

@allswell,

you still cannot claim to know any 'deity' exists but you believe they do (for those of you that missed it he claims to be Agnostic Theist with a hint of Chaoism) . It is my opinion you are a liar and you should crumple your current 'hungry' 'powerful' soul <LMAO, still funny> and start anew.

I can't believe you spent all that time with that response. You, my dear man, are so far out in left field GPS is useless. The Boy Scout Law will remain in tact without any need for change. Now if there were sections that included "Intolerance to others", "Like it or Leave it", "Ego is the only way", "Ignorance is Bliss": Yeah, they would need to be changed! YMMV

Thanks David Noah! You nailed it. If you don't like the principles of an orgainization, join a different organization or start your own. Stop trying to change the one we have and love as it is.

I don't have any problem with these people acting or believing as they do. Just don't make me change what I have and enjoy because you want me to be different now. If the board wants to have this discussion, so be it. Then, I suggest they ask this man to leave the organization if he disagrees with the values and standards that have helped it become what it is today.

Yeah, me either just don't ask for tax allowances, government hand outs or discounts for building leases if you are an organization who does exclude.

@David Noah... Bravery is the ability to stand up before all, admit that what you have created is flawed, and for the good of all needs to be changed. This change needs to happen, not because "it's popular", but because "it is just".

The original 1910 BSA handbook suggests making a tent canvas waterproof and long lasting by soaking it in solutions of alum and "sugar of lead" (lead acetate) which was clearly toxic. Should that provision still be in the books, or did they "do the right thing" by changing their procedure after wisdom of experience and experiment proved it harmful? Is not new evidence how we change ourselves and improve our lot & society? Is this not the same as any changes we make to admissions based on new evidence?

If the Boy scouts change their stance on Homosexuality it means they have caved to peer pressure and forgot the meaning of what it is to be a Boy Scout.

To be a Boy Scout means to be capable of adjusting your reasoning when shown where it is wrong. I believe you have forgotten, if you ever knew, what it truly means to be a Scout.

you still cannot claim to know any 'deity' exists but you believe they do (for those of you that missed it he claims to be Agnostic Theist with a hint of Chaoism) . It is my opinion you are a liar and you should crumple your current 'hungry' 'powerful' soul <LMAO, still funny> and start anew.

Still stalking with the same tired dribble are you? I should be flattered that you were so injured and threatened by my statements to need to follow me around and repeat them, yet cannot provide a single useful comment to the subject at hand.

Thanks David Noah! You nailed it. If you don't like the principles of an orgainization, join a different organization or start your own. Stop trying to change the one we have and love as it is.

So long as the BSA accepts public funds they must adhere to public discrimination rules.

Always a scout...what really saddens me is that you totally missed out on what Obedience is....a scout's duty to God isn't something that is interpretive or subjective. His Word is clear cut. He says in the New Testament that "if you love Me, you will obey My commandments." You have the right to disagree but it is the backbone of Scout theology, the fulcrum by which all the other codes make sense. Any erosion of what the Scriptures clear intent about homosexuality changes the original vision of the Scouts. Why would homosexuals who don't embrace those codes want to associate with the Scouts in the first place. David Noah is right, if you don't like the rules, don't be a scout. If you want to be a scout than don't support homosexuality. The Constitution's absolute law of free association makes it clear that the BSA has the right to exclude people based on its belief system. If I volonteered at the ACLU or Planned Parenthood and still held my beliefs about gay marriage being wrong, and abortion being murder, I would expect those organizations to excise me from their ranks as well.

@allswell - you should know by now you and I will continue to have history together, and my comments are meaningless and insignificant just as you. For you to even blast anyone's comments you need to have some credibility and when you cannot even be credible to yourself, then again to remind you of who you are is just and fair for all who express their views. So, just keep on reading...Im sure we will have more to share.

Do you have access to the financial records of the BSA and can you determine the exent of 'public' funds which are funneled into this all powerful organization? Seems they are throwing stones at the gay males, like the chinese did at the mongols while building their wall. The thing is the Chinese won, still.

@Revelator7 - Yes, yes, yes "duty to God" IS SUBJECTIVE and how it's interpreted depends on which tradition you follow.

I don't expect the Bhuddist scout to follow what the Jewish scout believes, or the Anglican what the Hindu does either, etc. BSA embraces all these, and has room for them - even those who do not read the same book as you. And specifically teaches respect and tolerance for those of other religious views.

Always a scout...what really saddens me is that you totally missed out on what Obedience is....a scout's duty to God isn't something that is interpretive or subjective. His Word is clear cut. He says in the New Testament that "if you love Me, you will obey My commandments."

BSA does not require a belief or adherence to the Christian god, nor any god. Those articles that explicitly mention god can be left out.

David Noah, give it a rest. I find this fear of gays laughable given my own experience in the Boy Scouts. During my first two years, I lived in fear of being sexually assaulted by older members of my troop. Fortunately it didn't happen, but the threats were there, and worse, I was afraid to report it to anyone because I thought that the threatened acts were part of the "initiation" process and I'd be coonsidered a coward or a liar if I came forth. And my dad wouldn't let me quit. So I stuck it out.

Well, the people who would love to pervert the scouting organization are speaking out, even on this blog.

Check Leviticus 20 and 18, Deuteronomy also. No, Allswell... the requirement is that you have a belief in God, there is no call out on which RELIGION you chose as a scout or scouter.

Here is where this perversion starts.... that politically correct people who think everyone should think and act as they do ...regardless of the perversion of their thoughts and lifestyle. That's why the BSA is a private entity.... to keep out the perversion of ethics and morality....just like the board members who should quit because they are wolves and have made them selves known to the flock...kick them to the curb. A well known Scoutmaster,about ten years ago or so, bribed a 15 year old into not telling about his rape by the Scoutmaster....he gave the scout a shotgun, and the scout used it to remove the pervert from the planet....seems after the Scoutmaster had his day in court, it was found he had molested over 100 scouts...yet the scout was given 10 years in jail for removing the threat.

Seems you scientist types don't have a clue that SIN in your life causes this type of disaster. to the

detriment of everyone....everything can be explained away by science! Yet you cannot realize that God made the rules to keep this gay BEHAVIOUR from perverting the whole human population, Gee....maybe that's why he gave you a brain and free choice.. to believe in Him as your creator ..or to not believe in Him.... in you believe in HIM....then you believe HIS WORD..is true ,and you follow His Word.. . You cannot sit on a picket fence without harm. Again..Leviticus 18 and 20.

@ NOTBD

The Book of Leviticus is an ancient book of Hebrew laws. Last time I checked this was the United States of America not ancient Judea. The United States is a Democratic Republic not a Theocracy.

Have you ever eaten shellfish? Have you ever cursed at your parents? Have you ever eaten pork? Are you a man who doesn't wear a beard? Have you ever worn clothing made of a poly-cotton blend? Then you have broken one of many rules in the book of Leviticus.

Apparently, eat shellfish is even more of an abomination then gay sex because it is mentioned three times opposed to twice. Oh and lesbians are okay because Leviticus only mentions men.

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

_________

The book of Leviticus also condones slavery something outlawed in this country.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

Check Leviticus 20 and 18, Deuteronomy also. No, Allswell... the requirement is that you have a belief in God, there is no call out on which RELIGION you chose as a scout or scouter.

Leviticus states its requirements in terms of cleanliness (original word that has been translated to "abomination". Deuteronomy speaks against prostitutes in its original wording, not homosexuality in general.

Learn the truth.

Your kind are rare these days, and I thank you for following the truth of your savior.

Your a joke. A man putting his penis up another man's sphincter is not a loving Godly thing. Your sick.

@joethejust - allswell is all about supporting same-sex genital smashing which happen in over 1500 species which view him as an 'Ace Ventura' figure, thus he spends many hours observing and possibly participating in. Just ask him.

Your a joke. A man putting his penis up another man's sphincter is not a loving Godly thing. Your sick.

God never actually speaks out against homosexuality. He speaks out against prostitution and rape. The only laws that are clearly anti-homosexual are the Leviticus Laws, which Christians were told not to follow anymore (and even these are focused on the use of a word that, while translating to "abomination", is related to cleanliness more than anything else).

@joethejust - allswell is all about supporting same-sex genital smashing which happen in over 1500 species which view him as an 'Ace Ventura' figure, thus he spends many hours observing and possibly participating in. Just ask him.

Sad attempts still. And here I'd hoped you'd learn.

No ... America speaks out against homos every time we are asked. Stop believing the liberal hype machine gay boy. You're in the minority for a reason.

@allswell - look you brought the rest of the creatures who engage in homosexual acts in to this mix. So I assumed you had some type of skills related to the fictious character 'Ace Ventura', but I did remember you do practice hints of Chaoism, or magical something or other. It could be you have the ability to pull rabbits out of your hat and that it is possible for it to engage in homosexual activity. Just reminding you again.

Back to the story, it speaks volumes when a board member merely expressed his opinion. Why is he wrong for saying his peace?

So true Tom.

TO GOD AND MY COUNTRY. Can a LESBIAN OR GAY ACTUALLY STATE THIS AND ACTUALLY MEAN IT? I DO NOT THINK SO. Most of them are living in sin and are against GOD. SO once in, what is the next step, to take out GOD IN OUR PLEDGE TOO? Sorry but this organization is always been about GOD and religion and faith.

So, go make your own organization that only GAYS CAN JOIN and BE LEADERS TOO. Boyscouts is based on religion and this is a perversion and has no reason to be in the Boy Scouts of America. God has never condoned homosexuality ever. Sorry but even in the Bible it is a perversion. Why should the Boy Scouts of America an organization that was orignally built on faith allow them in their organization? Girl Scouts should not either even though they do. Go start a Gay group and name it Gay Scouts of America or something.

Why is it we heterosexuals have to conform to whatever you have to say? Why do religious groups have to give up their freedom of religion for the gay community to take over? I am so tired of them trying to ruin religious organization. I am so sick of the gay community saying we have to except their way of life. Go start your own gay organization and have troops. Leave this wonderful organization alone. THIS IS A CHOICE. YOU ARE NOT BORN THAT WAY SO STOP TRYING TO SAY YOU ARE???? You have a choice. You picked the wrong one if you want to be in this particular organization. SO GET A CLUE!!!

Why do you have to be in everything: every show, every movie, and in everything every minute of the day? Why is it promoted so much? Sorry but it is wrong. A major sin. A major perversion. Because even to God it is definitely wrong. Read the Bible and find out for yourself.

Here it is:

"Nowadays homosexuality seems to be
everywhere. It seems almost fashionable to be homosexual or at least bisexual.
If you say anything is wrong with homosexual behavior, people will label you
homophobic or say that you are judgmental." (I am not homophobic, I am religious and I believe that it is wrong and this organization is one organization that still promotes faith and religion so leave it alone). "There are so-called gay pride
parades, gay pride rainbow stickers and license plate frames, TV shows with
homosexual characters. The world has even come up with some wonderful sounding
terms for the people who participate in this activity. "Alternate lifestyle,"
"Life partners." Yes, the world will tell you that homosexuality is totally
normal and something to be proud of." ()

"But God's Word tells us something totally
different about homosexual behavior. And no matter what the world says about
homosexuality or how "open minded" people of this earth become, God has not
changed in how He feels about men lying with men, and women lying with women. So
if you have traded in God's standards of living and begun to believe what this
world tells you, look out!

Yes, homosexuality is a sin. Leviticus
18:22 reads, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is
abomination." That is stated as plainly and clearly as you can get. The
Bible commands us that we are not to have intercourse with people of our same
sex. It is not only a sexual sin, but it is an abomination (something that is
impure and illicit in God's eyes)." ()

"Sodom and Gomorrah were places where all kinds of sexual habits were practiced.
The people of that place had turned their backs on God's laws and did whatever
their wicked minds told them to do. God eventually destroyed Sodom and
Gomorrah for their wicked ways." ()

This is an organization based on God and faith. It is in the pledge. So, sorry you should not be members.

TO GOD AND MY COUNTRY. Can a LESBIAN OR GAY ACTUALLY STATE THIS AND ACTUALLY MEAN IT? Of course they can, although I know it's impossible for homophobes like you to accept.

Original translations and intents of the bible's words show that homosexuality was never against god's word. Only rape and prostitution.

allswell

Original translations and intents of the bible's words show that homosexuality was never against god's word. Only rape and prostitution.

#25.3 - Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:40 PM EDT

According to...you? Nearly two millenia of scholarly study on that issue disagree with you, but don't let that stop you. Kudos to you for making the effort.

According to...you? Nearly two millenia of scholarly study on that issue disagree with you, but don't let that stop you. Kudos to you for making the effort.

Actually scholarly study by language experts shows biblical scholars to be heavily influenced by their own traditional decisions on how to interpret, not by actual facts on language origins.

Out of curiosity...which is it you're claiming to be the "originals" as far as text? Greek? It seems to be, from some of your statements, but the language of the disciples and Jesus wasn't Greek. Those are themselves translations...

Out of curiosity...which is it you're claiming to be the "originals" as far as text? Greek? It seems to be, from some of your statements, but the language of the disciples and Jesus wasn't Greek. Those are themselves translations...

The earliest known surviving documents are in Greek and Hebrew, particularly Greek for all New Testament works. Jesus himself likely spoke Aramaic, but no text exists to confirm this.

Until you can find written documentation in Aramaic, the Greek texts stand as the originals.

allswell, yes, the majority of the oldest known works of the New Testament are in Greek and the language ... ΕΛΛΗΝΗΚΟΣ (the language of the area of the time, Hellenic) is critical to any understanding of the works. If one does not know a bit of Hellenic, and also the Isopsephy, then one cannot begin to understand the deeper meanings of the works ... and most especially of the Apocalypse of Saint John the Divine.

It is said that Jesus is the Word ... in Hellenic ... Λογοσ Εστι (literally 'the Word .. Focuses' or makes manifest) this being the Word referenced ... the Logos ... resolves by the Isopsephy to 888, which was also the Number of Apollo, so that to the ancients, they were the same ... as the Mysterious spelling (with the old Stigma as 'st') Ϛαυρος (cross) resolves to 777 ... This is all tied to the most ancient Mysteries as laid out in the Vision of Ezekiel, Daniel and the Book of Numbers ...

Now any of the great Christian Scholars of the Fourth Century CE would have known this to be so, as they knew the Number of the Beast to refer to Λατεινος (Rome, not to advertise when you are the Roman Church) and one who does not, has not become acquainted with the Mysteries of Christianity as it was known to its founders, and one wonders how it is that they even call themselves Christians ...

But we know that all may believe as they see fit and are free to declare, so perhaps those who are unaware of such things (and we do not here refer to you, alliswell, but to Dee) should just simply refrain from attempting to teach Christianity to others until they at least know some of the basics ...