How about setting (and enforcing) standards for academic achievement instead. And, just for good measure, toss in teacher requirements more stringent than "belong to the union" and "get a certificate".

Denver Bill 2, how about setting requirements for parents to be engaged in their children's education? Kids learn a lot more at home than they can possibly learn in a classroom. I could read when I started kindergarten because my mother read to us every day. We were also not allowed to slack on our school work. If we brought home a bad grade, it wasn't the teacher whose butt was going to get blistered.

Deb P.,

Good point, and one which I neglected to throw into the mix.

Love the photo of the teachers bitching and up in arms about working a little longer day for 2% more. Notice the girth on most of them, fat as the town dog. "Teacher Unions" are all about teachers, to hell with the students. Public sector unions should be completely abolished, you work for "us" not a company or corporation.

Deb. P, with you in spirit, but not in reality. Today's children are the most neglected in history. Many single parent households and double working households today. I would like it to be different but it isn't. Many children are just ignored at home, and treated like bling. I used to sponsor several children in big brothers big sisters, 99% of them have never been read to in their life. You take them to a restaurant and they have never seen a waiter or waitress in their life, they thought they had to take their dishes to a trash can to empty. That is America, sad to say, we are right on the abyss.

Nowadays they have to worry about being SHOT instead of bringing home a bad a grade!

It shocks me how illogical all of this is. This is not the fault of teachers, it is not the fault of not enough time in school. The fault lies SQUARELY on our culture - on the children themselves, and on the parents that don't put their foot up their kid's backends. Back in the day, teachers were MEAN. There was no grading on the curve, there was no self-esteem boosting, and there was zero tolerance of rudeness and disorderly conduct. You got your knuckles rapped with a ruler for whispering to a friend, and you got an F if you didnt study hard. When you got home, you would get a whoopin' from dad for being disobedient, and you DID YOUR HOMEWORK - because your parents made sure of it. And the ones who didnt do all of that, didnt have the PRIVILEDGE of going to school - they had to work the farm, and they dreamed about being able to go to school.

Yes, those times are gone. But our overly lenient and indulgent society is the cause of these insolent little twits we call our children. They are wanting to dress like sluts and gangstas at 10 years old. Parents should do their kids a favor and get rid of the television, unless you have very strict control over when they can watch -

More time isnt the answer, unless of course, our only desire is to find alternative babysitting arrangements because our society is SO SCREWED UP that mothers have pretty much abdicated the role of being a mother. Women should be doing one of two things. Working, or raising thier children. NOT both. It doesnt work, and sooner or later, we will figure this out. I think its going to take another couple of generations of the dark ages before we have another renaissance and get over all of this ridiculous mass-self-esteem issue. Women, motherhood is not something to be pushed aside. Careers are overrated. Our whole culture needs to hit the reset button. Economically, socially, psychologically, spiritually. We are beyond messed up.

HEY! This looks like yet another good place to post the words of a very smart man! But before I do, let me just add - theres nothing more that the establishment wants, than to have our children in "institutions" (in this case an educational institution) for as long as possible. Its training. No creativity, no time outside to while away the summer hours.. because the fields our kids could romp through have been paved over, and they have to go directly home and sit in front of tvs and violent xboxes, waiting for mom to come home with a pizza, or something that can be tossed in the microwave. Welcome to our post-modern dark age. Now for those wise words....

------------

George Carlin
(May 12, 1937 - June 22, 2008)

"The American Dream"
Theres a reason why education sucks and its the same reason it will never ever ever be fixed. Its never gonna get any better, dont look for it, be happy with what you got. Because the OWNERS of this country dont want that. Im talking about the real owners now. the REAL owners. The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You dont. You have no choice. You have owners. They OWN you. They own everything. They own all the important land, they own and control the corporations theyve long since bought and paid for the Senate the Congress the State Houses the City Halls they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all the news and information you get to hear. THEY GOT YOU BY THE BALLS! They spend BILLIONS of dollars every year lobbying, lobbying to get what they want. Well we KNOW what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else. But I'll tell you what they DONT want. They dont want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They dont want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. Theyre not interested in that. That doesnt help them. Thats against their interests. They dont want people who are smart enough to sit around the kitchen table and figure out how badly theyre getting f***ed by a system that threw them overboard thirty f***ing years ago, they dont want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers. People who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly sh***ier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime, and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And NOW theyre comin' for your social security money. They want your f***ing retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They'll get it! Theyll get it all from you sooner or later because they OWN this f***ing place. Its a big club... and YOU AINT IN IT. You and I are not in the big club. By the way, its the same big club they use to beat you over the head all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head in their media telling you what to believe what to think and what to buy. The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged. And nobody seems to notice.. nobody seems to care... Good honest hard-working people. White-collar, blue-collar, it doesnt matter what color shirt you have on, good honest hard-working people continue - these people of modest means - continue to elect these rich c**k suckers who dont give a F*** about them. They dont give a F*** about you, they dont GIVE a F*** about you. They dont CARE about you. At ALL, at ALL, at ALL! Man...You know? And nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care... Thats what the owners count on - the fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red white and blue d**k thats being jammed up their a**holes everyday because the owners of this country know the truth... Its called the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it.

Love the comment by toldin-2366624. He is spot-on. I am familiar with a situation in a school district in which the exact same thing happened. Same teachers, same administrators, the demographics changed and suddenly the test scores went in the tank. Discipline issues increased, attendance became more of a problem and test scores went down. Nothing is going to change until parents and students are held responsible.

Educators now are by far more highly qualified and knowledgeable overall than they were 20 years ago when I was in school. What's the difference? Parents 20, 30, 40 years ago were far more involved in their children's education at home. They taught their kids how to read when they were 3 or 4 year old. They read to them every night before they went to bed. They would do little simple math things with them when they were pre-school age. They also sat down with them every night and made sure the kids did their homework and helped them with their reading, spelling, math, etc. That just isn't happening with the regularity that it should anymore and no amount of money you throw at it and no magic bullet you fire is going to solve the problem until parents are once again held responsible for the education of their children.

Parents. They are the key to good education. It doesn't matter how many or few hours, it doesn't matter how much funding, how qualified the teachers, and how much they are paid. The single most important factor in education is parents doing their job. The poor state of our education is directly related to the poor state of our marriages and families. The government has tried to make up for the problem in our homes and is failing miserably as there is no way to replace a stable home.

So complain all you want, but if you cannot keep a simple marriage vow, then don't complain how your kids grow up. Actually, they probably won't grow up. They will become "adult children" just like many other Americans, who lie and cheat on their spouses and families, and look out only for themselves and what feels good.

Oh, and just because your partner breaks his or her marriage vow doesn't give you the right to break yours.

All the the politics of crime prevention and education improvement are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. If our families are not repaired, our once-great country will fall.

Parents. They are the key to good education. It doesn't matter how many or few hours, it doesn't matter how much funding, how qualified the teachers, and how much they are paid. The single most important factor in education is parents doing their job. The poor state of our education is directly related to the poor state of our marriages and families. The government has tried to make up for the problem in our homes and is failing miserably as there is no way to replace a stable home.

So complain all you want, but if you cannot keep a simple marriage vow, then don't complain how your kids grow up. Actually, they probably won't grow up. They will become "big children" just like many other Americans, who lie and cheat on their spouses and families, and look out only for themselves and what feels good.

Oh, and just because your partner breaks his or her marriage vow doesn't give you the right to break yours.

All the the politics of crime prevention and education improvement are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. If our families are not repaired, our once-great country will fall.

How do you teach a kid with discipline problems who refuses to learn, answer, you dont, you take them out of the classroom so they wont be a hindrance to other students, put them in a school where they are taught reading, writing and basic arithmetic for 3 hours, and the other 3 hours are spent digging ditches to give them a little insight as to their future careers, maybe their attitude will change about learning.

Denver Bill - I'm not a teacher but my wife and mother are. I don't know what extra requirements you are wanting, but teachers in Kansas are required to have a college education, and then have to pass a test and have what is basically and internship to get their teaching certificate. Then once they have their teaching certificate they have to get continuing ed points and if they don't teach for a certain amount of time they lose their license.

I don't know what other jobs are that stringent, maybe a lawyer or doctor? What more requirements are you going to place on a profession that is required to have a college degree, when new teachers will probably barely be able to afford their student loans.

I don't like the union aspect either as far as district having to retain low quality teachers, but don't they have a probationary period? Also, and I could be wrong, I think alot of the teachers in the unions may be in there because it offers coverage to the teachers in case they are sued by some nut job parent, not that all parent are nut jobs. You know what I mean.

To my knowlege my wife isn't part of her local teacher union because she doesn't like the stances they take on issues she feels passionately about, but I could be wrong, that may be some other teacher organization.

An for those that are curious, she is k-8 art, and does professional artwork as well. So she is one of the few that is a teacher and a professional in her field.

The three months off were established during the one room school house days... This was because of gardening and harvesting and calving because most kids lived on and walked miles to school from a farm where if they didn't bring in a harvest they didn't eat. Those days are long gone and so should the three month vacation be gone. Who ever heard of such a thing...The teachers get paid for these three wasted months just as if they were working..wasted money...

Lillipop,

Where do you come up with 3 months of summer vacation? I am a teacher. The last day of school last year was June 28 and the first day this year was August 28. According to my calculator, that is 2 months. Two months that we are not paid for, yet most elementary school teachers in the town I work for, spent 2-3 weeks (with no pay)over the summer at school getting their classroom ready for their new students, spending their own money on supplies, book shelves, books, etc. As a matter of fact, school has been in session for just 2 weeks, and I have spent over $600.00 of my own money to set up my classroom, even having to buy my own fan for these hot humid days.

It is so sad that teaching, once such a respected profession, has experienced such incredible teacher bashing and disrespect in recent years. I know that there are teachers who deserve these comments; there is deadwood in every occupation, but the majority of teachers that I work with spend more of their own money and work far beyond the end school day than people in other jobs.

Previous posters are correct. Education begins at home. Teachers and parents have to form a partnership and be on the same page. Unfortunately, parents who view teachers in such a negative light pass on that attitude to their kids, and if kids are not invested in their learning, they cannot possibly reach their potential.

The problem with that is the money. No one wants to pay the teachers for longer school days and longer school years. No one wants to pay the extra wear and tear on facilities. No one wants to pay the administration costs.

All that money comes out of taxes.

If I was a teenager, you would be my least favorite person in the world.

i agree, a longer more productive school day and add back in arts/pe/electives. Teach something other than the "test" and allow for more creativity by the teachers. No more twiddling thumbs because the teacher has "gone over all the material the district wants her to cover".

I would also like to see less time off in the summer - why do they need 3 months off.

The problem with that is the money. No one wants to pay the teachers for longer school days and longer school years. No one wants to pay the extra wear and tear on facilities. No one wants to pay the administration costs.

All that money comes out of taxes.

Let's see...teachers keep saying that "it's about the kids!" Well, is it really? Chicago teachers are paid reasonably well to work about 5 and 1/2 hrs per day - 9 months per year...private sector employees who make the same salary have to work 8+ hrs per day - 12 months per year! If it were TRULY ABOUT THE KIDS, the teachers wouldn't be fighting a request that they work an add'l 1 and 1/2 hrs per day for a 2% increase in salary....this situation basically proves to me that teachers aren't in this profession because of their concern about our nations' youth, they are in it for the convenient (aka short) work days, the summers off, and the pay/benefits! I respect individual teachers but their union leaders are POND SCUM!!!!

Uh...No:

Teaching is NOT a popularity contest.

It's a good thing that teenagers don't rule the school. My favorite teachers, as in the ones I remember were the ones who demanded that I work hard. They were the ones who taught me what it takes to succeed. The teacher who was easy and just wanted to be friends did nothing for me or any other student. If the teenagers are running a particular school, the staff needs to be looked at.

I wasn't saying it was. I was just empathizing with the students. I agree students need to be held to high standard. I'm not advocating for easy teachers. I'm advocating for more education in less time. 7.5 hours is enough time in school to receive the instruction that you need to succeed.

Teaching is a lot harder than it looks. I am a teacher, and many of my friends that are outside of the profession would give me subtle cajoling saying, must be nice to be overpaid babysitters, or the 3 best things about teaching are June, July, and August, and you get paid well to only work 6 hours a day for 9 months. I kept track of my hours for 2 school years of time spent on my teaching. In the 9 months of teaching, I accumulated an average of 2,120 hours of work. Compared to a person who would work 40 hrs per week, it would appear as though I earned my time off in the summer. Not to mention I take classes to keep current in educational philosophy and methods, and also prepare things for the next school year. Oh, and the best response to those who complain that teachers have it easy and are overpaid for what they do, I simply ask them if they'd like me to get them an application. That shuts them up.

What Chicago really needs is a good community organizer.

We need to replace teachers with computers. This has been shown to be extremely effective and a fraction of the cost of teachers.

The real issue is not length of school day or ear, but the lack of motivation, parental involvement and general lack of importance placed on education. And... Shame on all of you teacher-bashers. Degrading teachers only tells your children that you don't value education.

Not going to happen. Conservatives want lower taxes. There's no money for education. We need more bankers and lawyers and less teachers, firemen, and policemen.

Let's see...teachers keep saying that "it's about the kids!" Well, is it really? Chicago teachers are paid reasonably well to work about 5 and 1/2 hrs per day - 9 months per year...private sector employees who make the same salary have to work 8+ hrs per day - 12 months per year! If it were TRULY ABOUT THE KIDS, the teachers wouldn't be fighting a request that they work an add'l 1 and 1/2 hrs per day for a 2% increase in salary....this situation basically proves to me that teachers aren't in this profession because of their concern about our nations' youth, they are in it for the convenient (aka short) work days, the summers off, and the pay/benefits! I respect individual teachers but their union leaders are POND SCUM!!!!

I am a school psychologist for the largest school district in my state - so not a teacher per se but knee-deep in public education (and paid on a teacher's salary schedule though not a dues paying member of either AFT or NEA). There is such a common misconception that teachers work the same hours as students attend school when that is not even remotely the case. Teachers need to be at school at least 45 min before students come to school and are contractually obligated to stay AT LEAST 45 min after school dismisses for students. I say "at least" since teachers (and I) are usually there much, much longer. Teachers are obligated to attend faculty meetings, participate on school committees, stay late for conferences to accommodate working parents, and are *strongly encouraged* to serve as faculty advisors for extracurricular clubs/teams. Starting at third grade, they are required to offer at least 45 min of afterschool tutoring 3 times per week (and one of my schools also mandates 4 hours of Saturday school when test time approaches). "Planning periods" are built into the schedule to encourage grade level team collaboration, but often teachers lose that time because they are being pulled into IEP meetings or have to cover classes. Then there is the time spent after hours to write lesson plans, grade papers, etc.

I absolutely love my job and cannot imagine doing anything else. However, I resent the lack of respect afforded to all educators. We are expected to wave our magic wands and get all kiddos on grade level with little to no support from families or the community. I work a 207 day contract and since my district is year-round, I have a 5 week summer vacation (not 3 months as many assume). No, I do not get any "extra" time off during the school year as we require those in the lowest 25% to attend school during the longer "intersession" breaks where teachers also work. We are bound by laws that are passed by legislators with no background whatsoever in education - like the disaster that is NCLB. My state just passed a law that says if 3rd graders do not pass their state tests in reading, they can be retained up to 2 additional years at that grade level (yes, that means is it is possible for students to spend at least 3 years in 3rd grade!). Sounds great on paper - I would love all of my students to be on grade level - but that will never happen no matter how many laws are passed. There are circumstances school has no control over no matter how "good" a teacher is deemed to be. For example, I was asked to evaluate a 1st grader for special education that had missed 30+ school days this year. Ethically, I could not because federal regs force us to rule out lack of instruction when considering spec ed - however, is anyone surprised that this student is so far behind missing this much school? Are schools now obligated to pick up each student from their homes each day and drag them to school? When we refer to truancy court (which was done with this student) and the news publishes that a family has been fined for truancy, educators are then strung up for adding additional financial difficulties for the families. So all you brilliant people out there who think they can fix public education with a snap of their fingers, please share how it can be done without increasing resources? Expelling students is not allowed by law.

Why is there such outrage when teachers expect additional compensation for additional time? If any of you out there had a job and your boss increased your workday but did not increase your pay, wouldn't you be a bit miffed? So why is it that teachers are not allowed to fight for their own rights as well? Lawyers are paid by the hour for every phone call, memo written, research time, court time, etc. and nobody balks at that. Imagine if teachers charged like that - asking for pay for every minute of interaction with their students, including lesson planning, grading, etc. The system would be broke for sure.

I work 55-60 hour weeks and get paid for 35. I can go into private practice and triple my salary at any time. However, I *choose* to work in the public schools because that's where the students are that need the most help. If a parent cannot get their kids to school how would they get them to therapy? I tolerate the conditions of my employment with public schools because of my love and concern for the children. However, I will not apologize for having 5 weeks off during the summer to recharge for the next school year. Many jobs offer incentive pay or stock options - that's how I look at my extended vacation time.

Where is this outrage for multi-million dollar companies and CEOs who have needed bailouts or declared bankruptcy yet continue to receive bonuses?

Uh-Oh I actually have a 15yr.old who starts High School this year after summer, I am SURE he agrees with you but. I had some WONDERFUL electives and some very highly attentive good teachers in California. I even had economics and wall street classes my senior year that taught me so much about revenue stocks and general US buying traits, my Mom could have NEVER taught me that so I was very thankful and willing to learn it, I worked to so by senoir year I ONLY went to school for 6 hours and left by 1pm but I had an early class at 7am. I took a lot of CP and honors classes but trust me to succeed in these classes your time well exceeded the school traditional day and if you are not dicipline you didn't do what was reqired of you so you failed. Today at least mine and others I've seen have very little will power and dicipline, so to inforce a longer day will get some less motivated students going in the proper direction. My kids go from 8am to 3pm, with I KNOW an hour lunch that is only 6 hours, plus roll call bathroom visits, computers, these are not studying or learning times I say they get a good 5 hrs or less of that.

mrk-3060962 In the 9 months of teaching, I accumulated an average of 2,120 hours of work. Compared to a person who would work 40 hrs per week, it would appear as though I earned my time off in the summer.

I don't know any individuals in Professional jobs who work just 40 hrs a week, most work on average 60 hrs if not more which means they accumulate an average of 3120 hrs a year. If you can find a Doctor, RN, Attorney, CPA, Police Officer, Fire Fighter.. etc etc that works just 40 hrs, I'd say they are considered retired. They are lucky to get their 2-3 weeks off each year and they certainly don't get every holiday on the Federal list off either.

Not to mention I take classes to keep current in educational philosophy and methods, and also prepare things for the next school year.

And they all have to take courses each year to keep up their license, technology and advancements in their area. CPA's have to prepare for the next tax year while they are working. Not only that, most above have the expenses of having to pay for malpractice/liability insurance because they, unlike public school teacher can get sued for doing a lousy job.

Oh, and the best response to those who complain that teachers have it easy and are overpaid for what they do, I simply ask them if they'd like me to get them an application. That shuts them up.

My response, if you think you work so hard and have it so bad then go fill out an application to be one of the individuals listed above. Do their job for a year and I would bet that would shut you up. Teachers in comparison to other Professional jobs do have it easier.

Well I'll say this. Our Education system is in need of some dire reforms, something I think most can agree on, but it's not so bad either that we can't fix it and get the ship righted if we all work try to work together for a change.

To this topic in general, while I don't think the longer days will be a cure all by any means, I do think it will help (as far as Chicago goes they should've at least been near the average, geez), yet if you go to long it could backfire as well. If we go this route, like I said there are other issues, we need to make sure we are doing what we can to improve those other areas as well. Things like:

• Include some classes that were cut and expand the time spent in others (math and science specifically).
• Reviewing curriculum's as a whole and doing more for those kids who are gifted. Part of the reivew means excluding special interest groups; tired of "their" version of history and what they think is right ect.
• For those in High School do a better job preparing them for secondary education; traditional college and votech.
• Let kids start putting more focus in their later years towards areas that they see themselves working in after secondary education, or high school I suppose.
• Stop undervaluing teachers and pay them right but stop letting unions protect the bad ones
• Athletics are great but not the focus of school! Money goes to academics first.
• Start getting serious about trouble makers and those who really don't care, kick them out or send them to alternative learning centers, don't let them distract those who want to be there and learn.
• Administrators stop overreaching your with your authority and focus on the school not what kids do online on their own time for example
• Actually give schools proper funding, (educated citizens are the key to our future, not bombs or policies that only benefit a select few) plenty of other waste that we can cut, schools shouldn't even be an option - but making sure schools spend the money wisely is part of that.
• Finally start holding parents accountable. No more teachers fearing parents. Parents don't like the truth then remove your kid and send them to private school. This isn't daycare. Time to setup to the plate.

I know there are more issues but I think these are a good start. Add to them if you like.

In fact I will add one more since this article is dealing with schedules and such. Not only some longer days but switching from the traditional schedule as we know it. The long break in summer is no longer needed for most now. In some places it still matters, but I'd say in the cities they need to look at spreading out the breaks and shorting the main summer one. Might seem radical but the only reason we have what we do now is a carry over from when many where still working on farms or the kids where expected to have jobs of some type in summer to help the family. Colleges could follow suit in someway to but I see here how it may not make as much sense but worth looking at. But for regular public school I think it would really help alot and avoid some of that summer break memory lose.

Again, something we can and should be doing. I think so of the answers are very clear we just have to admitt it. Add to this if you like.

It is time

"We need to replace teachers with computers. This has been shown to be extremely effective and a fraction of the cost of teachers."

Dick Scott is that you or Jeb???

clb-462357

I'm sorry you got the impression that I didn't like my job. I love it. I have a chemical engineering degree and worked for industry where I was well paid. I took my savings, quit my job, went back to school to get my teaching certificates for Chemistry & Physics, and found a nice job teaching. I say again, I love it. I'll never go back despite being paid only half the salary. That's the critical point of contention, in order to get excellent, knowledgeable, and top level people teaching, there needs to be a balance of money. I know many other professionals, that are hourly paid. I often worked more than 40 hrs. per week at my previous job, but not by much and I always took my vacation. I'm glad CPAs and other professionals keep up with their fields as well. I'll be sure to watch who isn't so I know who to sue if anything goes wrong and affects me.

Dr Tonya...newsflash! Most private sector salaried positions are based on 40-45 hrs per week; however, most SUCCESSFUL salaried employees work 50-60 hrs per week. And to assume that teachers are the only ones who take work home with them in the evenings (without "compensation") is pretty naive....virtually every private sector salaried employee I know does the exact same thing and spends the occasional Sat am in the office (after working 8-12 hr days during the week). I don't degrade teachers' responsibilities or credentials - I degrade their union's greed and commitment to the students.

Dr Tonya...newsflash! Most private sector salaried positions are based on 40-45 hrs per week; however, most SUCCESSFUL salaried employees work 50-60 hrs per week. And to assume that teachers are the only ones who take work home with them in the evenings (without "compensation") is pretty naive....virtually every private sector salaried employee I know does the exact same thing and spends the occasional Sat am in the office (after working 8-12 hr days during the week). I don't degrade teachers' responsibilities or credentials - I degrade their union's greed and commitment to the students.

jwilson - My point was never that educators were the only professionals who work long hours during the week and take home work on nights/weekends. My point is against the common battle cry when articles like these are published that teachers should consider themselves lucky because they *only* work 6 hours a day, have weekends off, several vacations, etc. The other professionals who put in those longer hours are well-compensated for their time (CEOs, doctors, lawyers, policemen, etc.) and nobody begrudges them. However, it is such a huge deal when educators ask for more money when asked to work longer hours. Why is that?

Again, it comes down to lack of respect for educators in general. There is this perception that it is so "easy" to fix public schooling. My post was to illustrate that unless you are in the trenches there are a lot of misconceptions about what is expected of educators. There are comments that say if we were focused on the children, we shouldn't complain about salary and that we are selfish. Again, name another job where you would be looked down upon for asking for more compensation for your time?

For those advocating performance pay - do you really think that would parse out the good teachers from the bad? Really? Basing pay on a single or maybe two data points (one day on one state test - at the beginning and end of the year- though NCLB calculates AYP on ONE single data point which is the Spring testing) is fair? Name another profession that is paid that way? All of the research out there says that ELL students can learn conversational English in 1-2 years but need 5-7 years of immersion to be fluent in academic English. Yet NCLB regs only allow 2 years of ELL exemptions. How is this the teacher's fault if the regs were written without consulting research? The national special education population is approximately 12% and yet only 5% of special ed students are allowed to take modified tests per NCLB without the school/district/teacher being penalized. Again, how is this the teacher's fault? Those students who have been diagnosed with various disabilities will be counted against the class scores because again non-educators did not look at simple statistics before putting this legislation that "sounds good" into law.

My district has 90% of its students qualified for free/reduced lunch and over 50% are ELL students. Truancy is a huge issue. Lack of parent involvement is another huge issue - to the point that students turn to gangs to get the support missing from home (and there are over 80 gangs in the city I work in).

Just like any profession, there are "good" and "bad" seeds. I choose not to be a member of any unions and have felt no pressure to join (so we are not forced to be dues-paying, FYI). All I ask is to take a step back and look at education objectively. Is the answer really to fire everyone and hire all new teachers? Or to judge who is effective or not based on a single test score (and you wonder why teachers feel pressured to "teach to the test")? Really? I don't see anyone calling for lawyers to be fired or to quit if they lose a court case or for doctors to quit if a patient dies on the operating table. However, teachers should quit/be fired/not be adequately compensated if all of their students are not on grade level despite the fact that many of the reasons for that are out of educators' control. If a doctor prescribes a medication for a patient and they choose not to take it and dies (or their illness worsens), do we advocate suing that doctor for malpractice? Of course not! So if teachers show up, do their jobs, but do not have outstanding test scores due to factors beyond their control, how is that their fault? How does that not show commitment to their students?

All major professions have unions - including doctors, policeman, firemen, etc. yet nobody says anything about those.

Teachers are not miracle workers. Most I know work their tails off. There are tons of success stories out there - but they are deemed to be not "newsworthy" so they don't get national press like this one here.

I don't have the answers but at least I'm open-minded to finding a solution. All I ask in return is for you is to show respect. You may not like educators but sheesh there are so many disrespectful comments on this thread it is astounding. Really - the weight comments? How can you expect kids to respect the authority of teachers when there are a bunch of parents and other adults on here bashing them - not even based on their performance but simply on their looks. That shows *tons* of respect.

CLB Your entire arguments is a logical fallacy. This nation does not allow indentured servitude. If you think you work too may hours, quit. The point was people think teachers don't work. Are you working 60 hours a week for 35k? Do you expect to raise someone else's kids while they don't co-operate, fight EVERY attempt to fix a broken system as a knee-jerk reaction, or deal with some armchair cowboy telling you that you don't try hard enough because someone in his state didn't do it?

Let me paint you an analogy. You have a sore tooth. You go to the dentist. He pulls it. Later you get another. "That dentist sucks!" You complain on the internet. "Overpaid unionized lazy jerk!" You find another dentist and he promises to do the job right. This repeats itself over and over. How long does it take you to wonder if the problem isn't the dentist?

And for the record, I HATE the union. The only thing worse than having a union is not having one. It should say something when there is a need for a bloated, high-spending, influential organization to keep you from being screwed by your own neighbors.

Heh, you think it's an easy paycheck? Let's see you down in the trenches, then, if it's such "easy money."

50% of new teachers quit in the first four years. Fifty percent.

If your family is full of teachers and they agree with the above, you either live in a crappy area, or your family is filled with crappy teachers.

My family's filled with teachers, and they resoundingly disagree with your assessment. I smell a troll.

No trolling here wilson. Just speaking from experience. When I was in school I had teachers who played games all day on their computers. I had teachers who when a kid asked for help they told the kid that they would be better off if they learned it themselves. And like I said I lived in a NICE area. I was in the second largest school system in the state of IN. Don't get me wrong, there were some teachers that were phenomenal and inspired me like you would not believe. They deserved every cent they got and then some. My teachers in my family are by and large part of the private school systems. They work their butts off and they love what they do. I'm not hating on good teachers as I'm sure your family members are, I'm saying there are plenty of bad apples that are kept in place thanks to their union membership. But ultimately I'm saying that this is a bad idea to extend the school day. Quality over quantity. But if they do the teachers should be compensated union or no. btw, I liked your comment.

Also, this speaks to a larger problem about the family structure in this country. Too many kids don't have the support at home that they need in order succeed. As a result they don't have the guidance or the focus to excel.

Why do private schools get better results? Because the parents are more involved and because any behavior problems get kicked out. Comparing private to public schools is apples to oranges.

Mug,

I disagree. You are right parents are more involved but the teachers are as well. It's a fact, the responsibility for the success of the students lies neither entirely on the teacher nor the parent.

Uh...No, have you been to a private school and seen the classes? Yes they do better because they are smaller classes. As a teacher, I can tell you it is easier to teach math to a class of 20-25 students instead 30-35 students. The same goes for English, science, history, electives, etc.

You also talk of parent involvement, I know that many private/charter school require parents to be in the school or participate in activities so many hours per week/year, so this make the parents more involved in the students education. The parents are also more involved because they are paying for the school so little Johnny better not fail or there will be some consequences. If these things, parent involvement and smaller classes, were in present in all of the schools you would see a dramatic fall in drop out rates and the money would be better spent.

As it is now, you blame the teachers but when do we start blaming the parents who see school as a babysitting service. I know some parents struggle either as a single parent or both parents working long shifts and odd schedules so there is little family time but I also know that some make the necessary time and if I call them they know about assignments or projects and they are at conferences. Many of the students of these parents are doing well and some students are just knuckleheads and school is either a social experience or the student is biding his/her time until they can drop out and not be bothered by it.

What about society? How is school portrayed on TV or in song? Is school seen as a time to work and be better prepared for life or is it portrayed as a burden that interrupts video game time or time that could be better spent hanging out with friends. I know some parents feel school is a waste of time for various reasons and so that attitude carries over to their kid who then doesn't do well in school and usually ends up dropping out.

So please don't just blame the teachers because there is a lot more that goes into teaching a child than just a few hours at school.

btldriver, you hit the nail right on the head.

Problem is, it's really difficult to regulate "good parenting." Culture shifts are agonizingly slow and I doubt elected officials want to wait around for parents to do their job (or lose their vote by talking about it). So teachers and their unions make for a more realistic target, if not an ineffectual one.

You cant teach a kid anything unless you get his attention first, and trying to reason with a kid isnt going to get his attention.

It reminds me of the old joke where a farmer was telling his buddy about his new mule and how the mule obeyed his every command, the buddy says to the mule "sit", the mule just stands there, he says "sit" again and the mule just stands there, the buddy says "this mule wont obey anything" the farmer picks up a 2x4 and smacks the mule across the head and says "sit", the mule immediately sits, the farmer says "first you have to get his attention".

Uh...No -- You're full of bull. I've taught in both private and public school (an excellent one) and there is a vast difference. In private (high) school, students had to pass an entrance exam to get in. Parents were VERY involved and as a general rule, wanted their kids to get the best education possible. In public school, I had students ranging in IQ from probably 70 to 150 and on parent night, maybe 5-10 parents showed up. In one case, when I tried to discuss a problem student with a mother, I was literally told that "[she] didn't give a sh@#t; it was my problem." Another student regularly came to school with nothing but a brown crayon (he was a "mainstream student") and probably had an IQ of 70. He needed special help but with 40 kids in the class, what could I do? And for those people screaming that teacher's should tutor kids and give them after school help, no sane teacher ever wants to find her/himself alone with a student. In both situations, I spent many hours after class prepping, correcting papers, going to meetings, attending classes and workshops. In both cases, I met good teachers and bad teachers; but isn't that the same in any profession? The key to good education is involved parents. I'm not talking about parents who come to school with a lawyer because the kid's cell phone has been taken away, but parents who make sure the homework is done and teach their kids respect for education and the system. Then and only then will the educational system improve. Unions have nothing to do with it.

Capt. I do agree with you I give my 15yr.old son a lot of help with Science and English, and Social Studies but I am afraid he has surpassed me in math already. I did buy him a $100 calculator for his math class and I can get on-line and find someone to help him if he has questions but that is all I can do for him at this point. In his younger years I was right there for him I am very active and attentive to my sons schooling also my 6yr.old daughter I bought her a leap tablet to help with sight words (I, am, the, see) I also provide food during Teacher week and I give all my children's teachers gifts and thank you notes I donate items to the classroom as well (donated a stationary bike for the gym for disabled students) I am NOT a teacher so my abilities are limited.

I also read another article that it doesn't help a child to do homework for them that to supervise let them make mistakes so they can learn from repeating them. That is where yes as parents it is our responsiblity to get them to the school but to do it for them wouldn't make them indepenant or adult ready, I LOVED school I shined had a high GPA but unfortunatly my children both now a High Schooler and a 1st grader tell me they do not like school and no matter how much I try to reassure them it will get better they still think I am lying. My son is too far along now to change his mind but we'll see High School is so different from Gade School Jr. High maybe these will be his best years I am hopeful, and the younger has a way to go so her opinion is invalid to date in reality, I can only hope they both find some aspect of it to enjoy.

The best thing a parent can do early is to teach their kid to read, and make him read until he is proficient, a child who struggles to figure out what the words are will never be able to understand what the paragraph means.

Ahsleyaddams

Im with you, when my daughter was in about the 6th grade she said "pop, no offence but youre going way too slow, Ill take it from here".

I commend you ashley and Steve.

My son at 3 could count to 50. He knows his ABC's by rote. I'm working with him on reading (he's 5 now) I'm also teaching him manners *gasp* and everything else he needs to know before he starts school this fall. I never had him in daycare or preschool. This is my responsibility as a parent to teach him the essentials, not a teacher.

Parents have forgotten what their duty is really all about.

AshleyAddams -- My hat off to you. Keep it up. I think a lot of kids say they don't like school because it sounds "cool." Maybe you can get them in some classes in which they are particularly interested, like music, sports, yearbook, whatever. Also, get them interested in college then they have something to work toward. Believe me, college can be lots of fun with lots of classes to choose from. You may stress that if they think going to school is a drag, wait till you have a job. My last boss was the most miserable human being on earth, and compared to working for him, school was heaven.

Actually lots of kids get jobs, internships, or play on traveling sports teams during those months. There's more to life than school ppl.

I'm a proponent of the year round school, 3 months on, one month off. That way there are reduced kids on the street with more kids in school.

Uh No

There's more to life than school ppl.

When my daughter entered high school I told her she can either have fun for the next 4 years, not get into college, and work the rest of her life, or work for the next 8 years through high school and college, and have fun the rest of her life. She is now having lots of fun. There may be more to life than school, but school will give you more to life.

Not disagreeing, but wouldn't it be the quality of parents that's the issue then not the quality of the students?

You do realize this school district is pushing forward a roughly 25% increase in work time for a 2% increase in pay, right?

I'd strike, too.

Well, their average salary is $76,000. My work day is 7 hours already and I make barely $50,000 at my teaching job. I haven't had a raise since Obama came into office, so 2% looks good. My salary increased $18,000 during the Bush administration though, so I'm doing fine, even without a raise.

Where in the world are you getting $76,000 from? Teachers making anywhere near that much money have to have been in the field for years, since the average US starting salary is $39,000. The average teaching salary in the US is somewhere around $51,000 and about $58,000 in Chicago. (And keep in mind that Illinois has one of the highest--if not the highest--pay rates for teachers.)

And I can promise you, teachers work far longer hours than just those that students are there. They show up early, leave late, attend meetings, tutor, sponsor extra-curricular activities, hold parent conferences, and grade homework and make lesson plans at night. My mother is still required to take education classes, attends conferences once every month or so, and had to learn Spanish--on her own time and her own dime--to get her ESL certification. (Had to. It wasn't a request.) And something else that doesn't get talked about is how much teachers usually end up paying out of pocket for their classrooms. Every year, my mother has to buy school supplies for at least five or more students because they show up without them, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I hate the idea that teachers have it easy. It's telling that I have never, not once in thirty years, heard an actual teacher say this. They're usually too busy getting screamed at by parents, trying to corral students who don't care and/or know that there's really nothing the teacher can do, or being forced to teach their students to parrot back info for a standardized test.

I'm a teacher myself, but I went the private, one-on-one route. I come from a family of educators, and I've seen all of the issues that go along with public school. Way too big of a clusterf@ck for me.

One thing I learned in school is how a simple word like "work" can be either a noun, or a verb, depending on it's usage in a sentence. I always like to keep this in mind as I hear people criticizing other's jobs.

For example, when used in a sentence begining with "Your work", it is a noun, as it denotes something that requires no intellect, concentration, or effort for which "you" are overcompensated. When used in this manner, the word "work" denotes a thing, not an activity.

But, when used in a sentence begining with "My work", it is a verb, as it denotes someting requiring extraordinary intellect, concentration, and effort for which "I" am undercompensated. When used in this manner it denotes an activity of Herculean effort.

I hope this helps clear up the arguement regarding how we perceive teaching jobs.

Have a nice day :)

@mary313646....If my salary had increased by 18k from 32k to 50k in the 8 yr Bush term,($2.250 per year avg.)...i WOULDN'T COMPLAIN TOO LOUDLY!... not too shabby! What, exactly is your point regarding the counter juxtaposition of GWB & Obama? Do you think Bush, while paying for 2 wars & trashing the housing industry made it possible for you to glean these salary increases? Do you think Obama, while attempting to unscrew the Bush debacle is deliberately depriving you of further unlikely inflated increases....REALLY?

Precisely.

I grew up in a country where when I went to school I still had to attend on Saturday's too. OK it was only half a day, but it made for a mess. Particularly as there was no such thing as schoolbuses and public transportation ran on a different schedule on weekends.

They then changed the hours when I started High School by amending the hours so I was in school from 7:10AM until 5:15PM. I can tell you by my senior year I was amassing lots of absentee hours...

Seriously! I know I'm being mean, but c'mon! Those women are not inspring confidence! UGH...

Exactly right, KH. My father, who has a Ph.D. in Special Ed, has voiced that same thing for years, but the PC "Mainstreaming" proponents shouted him down. He is retired now, and has no real confidence in the public education system. Teachers want, and are able, to do the right thing. Same with most principals. But the Departments of Education, and their Administrators, along with the unions, are more interested in protecting their turf. Too bad.

Lastly, let me offer "prop's" to the Mayor of Chicago and the board.

Faer:

Excellent!

Faer

One thing the Japanese children have that American children dont is pride, they also havent been told from birth that they are special and that somebody owes them, that they are entitled to everything they want and should not have to work for it. Lawyers and unions have combined to form the perfect storm for the downfall of the American public education system.

I used to have a shop teacher who made it perfectly clear on the first day that it was going to be his way, the reason, your a$$ couldnt take the wear and tear if it wasnt his way. He was also a gambling man, he'd bet you a dollar that he could take his custom made paddle and lift you all the way off the ground. It sounds harsh, but he got results.

The teachers that let the kids run the classrooms were a joke and nobody took them seriously. The teachers who were hard asses and didn't put up with the crap were in the end, highly respected and their students had better grades than the mamby pamby's.

With ever decreasing funding for schools,under achieving students, ombined with unqualified teachers and violent kids the solution is to keep them in the building longer ? How about better quality spending of their

money more teachers and a revamped teaching system that actually helps kids learn or was that just too hard to do ?

John:

Agree completely.

"In the average teachers college such as New York State any half wit can go student teaching and graduate and get a teaching certificate. I went to one and I found it incredible how dense many of the future teachers were academically"

For a time in college I lived with an education major and I could not even believe how lame her classes were. I too know many teachers and not only are many the least intellectually curious, they are plain dumb. And those MA degrees in Education, what a joke. Diploma mills churning those out. ANYONE CAN GET AN MA IN EDUCATION. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS PAY THE MONEY. But anyone can pass those tests.

And to think they people are the teachers. The entire system should be canned and ANYONE, that has a love for learning and a love for kids, and hopefully had an actual job where they actually worked in the world of say business or technology or whatever they think they can teach, some real world EXPERIENCE, should be able to apply to teach, and then be judged on the results, NOT HOW LONG THEY'VE BEEN SHOWING UP.

Right now, once a teacher get a certificate, that's it, they can be a teacher for life. So says the system that they are qualified. Some of the biggest burnouts are in front of kids everyday. And the unions protect these unqualified teachers everyday. That's the mission of unions; to protect the members. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE KIDS.

My girlfriend has a masters of engineering from U of I. She went back to school for teaching, took on more loans and makes far less with no chance of ever making what she could in the Engineering field. She is now teaches advanced math (calc, algebra, trig) in a very good district. She did this purely to make a difference in kids lives. There isn't a single other reason.

Now, she is a great teacher and the kids love her. So, in turn, they put more kids in her class, expect her to volunteer time to the prom commitee, ladies club, etc. The better she does and the harder she works, the more responsiblity and time it costs her. Because there is no incentive based raises, the teachers that do nothing extra, still get the same raises and incentives.

Tell me....what is her incentive to stay at a lower paying wage, with a ton of work she has to take home where she works with a lot of 'entitled' people? A job where a calculus teacher is deemed less valuable then a gym teacher? A place where if you do well, they burn you out with additional work. Do away with the unions and you'll have a better system within minutes. A lot of teachers are very educated people and deserve more. It's too bad the lazy ones and the union keep dragging them down.

Anita--I'm about to start my 20th year teaching at a public high school and I LOVE MY JOB!

Nice to read your response....truely it is.

What many posters here fail to realize is that nationally 1 in 3 kids are from a single parent household. Thus, there are not two parents to share the load of an outside job, washing, cooking, cleaning, and sitting down with the child to help with homework. And that assumes it is a one child single parent household.

Many two parent households don't have time any more. Both parents have outside jobs, and, due to the economy, the number of hours they need to be at those outside jobs to show the "company spirit" has increased. Work an 8 hour day anymore, and when the employer is looking to lay someone off, they're looking at you.

If the parent(s) aren't home, but are at work, who is to supervisor junior to get on the school bus, and to start his homework when he gets off the school bus? More than likely junior is getting into something he shouldn't be when he's unsupervised.

longer days is not the answer....studies show that the attention span of kids, especially in the intermediate grades, is not very long to begin. Quality and not quantity is the key

If their attention span is not expanded as a youth how do you suppose that when they explain to there employeer that they can't do their job for 8 plus hours a day....Are they destine for a PART TIME JOB.......Education in schools is preparing them for THE REAL WORLD...Your info on STUDIES is BULLCRAP....Look at the children in MOST civilized foreign countries work load 9 to 9.5 hours 6 days a week 50 weeks a year.....Look at the STANDINGS of the good old USA....19 in the WORLD.....GO back and see who wrote the STUDY on attention span...I'm more than sure that more than likely it was written by a first year college student that has NEVER WORKED a REAL JOB IN HIS OR HER LIFE....Thats generally who comes up with this FOOLISH DATA

You are right, but teachers and school administers have been pushing more and more authority over children and creating more and more homework which means that parents have less time to teach do parental teaching. I say do away with all homework. If a teacher cant teach basic knowledge during the school day then they are doing something wrong or administrators are doing something wrong. Save homework for special projects and not the daily extra work. Also, as a society we need to begin to shift away from focusing on things like art classes and football. These can be done after school I am an artist and never once took an art class in school. The problem is school itself, not just teachers, not just parents, not just funding or administrators but the entire system of education in America. Adding more hours in a failed system will only produce more hours of failure.

Advocates love to point to Asia as proof that more education, longer hours, etc works but it doesn't. Japanese school children have lower self esteem, higher suicide rates and they will graduate into a work force that simply is not capable of sustaining the sort of all encompassing commitment to the job that worked for a very few brief years.

It's been going on so long in chicago that 83% of the parents can't read at adult level. Yes, parents are suppose to be of help but in some areas, they do not have the social or educational skills to help.

without homework the system has no way of judging how the kids are doing. Rahm Emnauel's plans should be tried

KEY WORD PARENTS.......PLURAL.......single parent children are disadvantaged from the GET GO