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Subscribe to RSSA woman who beat her 7-year-old daughter with a belt, leaving her with lacerations and bruises on parts of her body for at least a week, was not within her parental rights to mete out punishment that went beyond a “customary spanking,” a New Jersey court has ruled.
The court’s decision reverses an earlier one in which another judge found the punishment was not extraordinary or excessive by K.T., the girl’s mother. (Only initials of family members were provided in the court documents.)
The girl, S.T., told a family services caseworker that her mother struck her with a belt after learning that she had kissed a boy during kindergarten class. The Division of Youth and Family Services had been alerted to the injuries on the girl by a teacher on June 7, 2011. The agency determined the beating occurred around May 31.
Pictures submitted to the court showed bruises on the girl’s arms, back, buttocks and thighs. She also had lacerations to her buttocks and right thigh, probably caused by the prong of a belt buckle, the Appellate Division of New Jersey’s Superior Court said in its decision issued Tuesday in favor of the family services agency.
“We hold that K.T.'s acts against her daughter are excessive corporal punishment and support a finding that S.T.'s ‘physical, mental, or emotional condition ... is in imminent danger of becoming impaired as the result of the failure of (K.T.) ... to exercise a minimum degree of care,’” Judges Mary Catherine Cuff and Alexander Waugh said in their decision.
In a recorded interview, K.T. said she struck her daughter with a belt for "a couple of minutes" because she had been sitting on a boy's lap and had been disruptive in school. K.T. said she only meant to strike her daughter’s buttocks, but the girl’s squirming around led to the other bruises. She also said she had used a belt to discipline her daughter in the past, according to the judges’ decision.
When asked if she knew what she did was wrong, she replied, "No, because that's pretty much how I was raised," the court documents said.
K.T., citing a prior New Jersey court case, said her actions fell within her constitutional right to use this type of punishment, and the record was void of “any objective evidence” that she had, in spanking her child, “recklessly created a risk of serious injury to S.T.”
The court said the law didn’t prohibit corporal punishment, and that a parent could inflict reasonable moderate correction, but that was not the case here.
“Multiple strikes with a belt to a seven-year-old child, which left bruises and marks all over the child's body that were visible seven days after the incident, is hardly the occasional discipline of a wayward or incorrigible teenager condoned by the Court” in an earlier case, the judges said. “Neither the school nor K.T. asserts S.T. exhibited other behavioral problems or was generally a difficult child. The punishment inflicted by K.T. is hardly a ‘customary’ spanking.”
The earlier trial judge, identified as Union County Superior Court Judge James Hely by the New Jersey Law Journal, had granted physical custody to the girl’s father, M.H., and joint legal custody to both parents. It’s not clear if the custody arrangements have changed with the appellate court’s decision. The family services agency said confidentiality laws prohibited it from commenting.
K.T.'s lawyer, Justin Walker of Piekarsky & Associates, told the law journal that she "may have been angry but I don't believe (her actions) crossed into the realm of abuse."
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One leaves VISIBLE marks such as laceratons, cuts etc that to me is way out of line. A red hand mark on the ass of a child is one thing but actual wounds? Come on...mom's got a bit of a temper that needs to be put into check.
I'll put this freaking child beater in check. Hand me that effing belt!
Jersey....
If you could see the marks even a hour later it was excessive.
p.s. romanm - your an ass
GimDan--do you live here? What makes this all the more shocking is that DYFS is typically overzealous in Jersey. The Jersey courts normally support the actions of DYFS.
The child's behavior did not require this type of lazy parenting. Remove her privileges, teach her a lesson and supervise the punishment. But to beat the child is just taking shortcut because one does not have the ability to endure or participate in actual parenting.
How many times have you heard some idiot say, "Yeah, that's why we have all these problems. The government won't allow you to spank your kids."? Same thing with, "Country's gone to hell since they won't let our kids pray in school." This is the right-wing bull sh!t that is treated as fact.
The truth is you can spank your kids, but doggone it, that damned government says you can't beat 'em to death. Truth is, your kids can pray in school. Lot of 'em do it, just before a math test. Nothing's stopping 'em from praying any time they want at home.
This is one of those cases that went too far, and for every one that is reported like this one, there's many, many more that aren't. Ask any cop, and they'll tell you about cases that were reported AFTER the child was dead. Ask any teacher, and most of them have a story that will curl your hair.
Maybe, ten or twenty years from now, some of the folks who know the particulars of this case can look back and say, this abuse was nipped in the bud, and the child managed to survive without too many scars, both mental and physical. Maybe not.
She's 7, and she's in kindergarten? I guess we can see what such strict/conservative/backwards parenting does to a child's development. Very sad.
I think the courts should beat the mother with a belt and see how she likes it! Poor child. What a good for nothing biotch!
Only god could justify beating for such a natural act as a kiss.
This woman has no business being a parent.
Child Protective Services - DEDICATED to the defenseless EXPLOITATION of INNOCENT Interests. Innocent in Spirit Guilty "by law" THEIR Exploitation KNOWS NO BOUNDS!!!
i do see the bleeding hearts are at it again...coddle johnny, take away the video games and everything will be just fine...what a load of crap...
It's about time Parents RECLAIM their role as parents as this woman did citing that was how she was raised. While it may have been a bit excessive, Go a bit easier next time...there is NOTHING NATURAL about 7yr olds kissing one another in that manner...ever heard of teenage pregnancy...
@David Walker, You make no sense in stating that it's "right wing bull@!$%# being treated as fact" that had anything to do with the poor choice the parent made. Abuse doesn't really pick a political party does it? I hope the child is safe now.
LOL This is New Jersey. The child beater is probably some inner city Obama-voting libtard who has no idea about meaning of true famuly values.
There is a difference between spanking your child and beating the child. Besides, there were marks on her back and legs. I think this woman took it to far. If she wanted to punish her spank her butt not her legs and back. People can see that this was a year ago. So she was 6 when this happened.
Go a bit easier next time? There is NOTHING NATURAL about a mother who is willing to inflict such pain on her child. Seven year olds still have pretty soft skin, did she really need to wear bruises for a WEEK because she kissed another little boy?
"A bit excessive" is an understatement. While we do want to do everything we can to prevent these children from becoming 13 year old mothers, this is just simply way too far.
You really think this kid is going to look to her mother for guidance when she's faced with situations that are above her head? Not after her mother BEAT her like this. This mother is PUSHING her child away from her and into bad situations.
And just because someone BEAT THE MOTHER AS A CHILD DOES NOT MAKE IT OK NOW.
STOP THE CYCLE OF ABUSE!!
Oh, and by the way, this article is about a mother beating her child.
Obama, Bush, the Republican Party and Democratic Party (and the Whigs, heck throw them in here too) were NOT PRESENT AND HAVE NO PLACE IN THIS DISCUSSION.
You people are ridiculous.
No problem with spanking your kids. Trust me a sit in time out doesn't quit always cover it. But you have to know the limits. The point isn't to injure the child and you should be smart about when to use it. I agree that too many "parents" are failing in the discipline dept but you certainly can't go this far either. All over a kiss? This lady is nuttier than squirrel turds. She needs an evaluation and I think good case to say the kid needs relocated. And yes I wondered about the 7yrs old and in kindergarten part as well. Maybe she has a handicap or something; even less of a reason to beat the crap out of the kid, but maybe it is also do to her clearing lacking parenting skills. Whatever the case hope they get this straighten out and do what is best for the child.
Agree with thedeb, drop the political BS and save it for another article that actually has something to do with politics. Stop making everything into a political argument. Geez. Bunch of kool aid drinking sheep.
It is time
Depending on when the child's birthday is, it may not be that unusual for her to have been in kindergarten at the age of 7. Keep in mind that this is summer now - school year just ended. Granted, if that's the case, the girl probably should have started earlier.
Or, if she already has some sort of developmental issue, she may have been help back. I knew a kid who was held back in kindergarten because he didn't learn the alphabet.
well actually politics kind of does. its a known fact that liberals are less likely to use harsh parenting or as republicans woiuld say are"too soft" and conservatives are more likely to use "tough love" that's just each other's view points on almost everything
You shouldn't be posting here. You are to reasonable and make to much sense.
Child torture of any kind is not the answer to preventing teen pregnancy. In fact, as someone who has worked in this field, it often leads to teen pregnancy. When the children feel unsafe and are abused at home, they turn to things like sex at a much younger age.
This could have been handled with a simple conversation. I am glad this person is being held accountable. I hope the court will do the right thing and remove the child from that home permanently.
Discipline should be teaching and guiding, not physical torture. This parent is no capable of guiding a child. The child is not safe in her home.
Lost and Found @1.10
Every one is a judge and jury. When the little girl is 13 and has child number 2. Thank the courts for my tax dollars now paying for welfare and food stamps. Charity begins at home!
******************************
Don't worry L&F, at the rate the mother is beating the little girl she'll not live to see 13 and therefore not have to worry about having kids of her own. Charity might begin at home but so does child abuse!!
Beating a seven year old (or anyone else for that matter) with a belt and buckle is battery. I'm sure if Mom was beaten equally by her boyfriend or husband, he's be sitting his butt in jail for domestic battery. It's only worse if the victim is a small child. A smack on a child's rear with an open hand is spanking, thrashing with a belt and buckle is not. It's abuse, plain and simple.
Ah...the American Taliban speaks. That's right...God would turn her into a pillar of salt for such an offense as kissing a little boy. And I'm sure now she's condemned to a life of prostitution and welfare. You should move to Afghanistan, you'd love the culture and discipline.
"When they show you who they are...believe them"
Why do some people have to bring politics in to every article written in the media. Nowhere did I read that the parent was a conservative or a liberal. The beating was excessive. The mother should be charged. End of story! Trolls everywhere just to piss people off.
C'mon, this is all ridiculous. Is this what we need our governments spending all of our money on. Some bratty little kid got hit a bit hard with a belt. It's not right, but really, is it necessary the judicial system get involved?
Now we've got a million people reading this, like myself, that will worry that some government office will come to my house one day because I've disiplined my kids, with a spanking, with my hand.
A belt is the type of child rearing tactic that produced some of the greatest generations of people that have ever walked this earth. Employed from the dawn of time. Can it go too far? Of course, but parents worrying about the government coming into their homes if they spank their child that doesn't care if you give a time out, ground, take their TV, talk to them, etc.... is much worse than one bratty kid who is disruptive in class getting the belt. Calling what this child got criminal child abuse, instead of overly-strict punishment, does a disservice to those who are actually abused. This is not abuse, getting the crap kicked out of you by some alcoholic father, with his fists or even worse some weapon is child abuse. Getting raped is child abuse, this is overly strict discipline. The parent was trying to correct, was overzealous with it, but I'll tell you what is worse than what she did......DOING NOTHING LIKE A BUNCH OF PARENTS, MANY WHO ARE LIKELY CRITISIZING THIS WOMAN ON THIS BOARD!!!!
I'm not liberal, but I am definitely not a conservative either, I usually vote democrat. But on this the liberals who want the government to raise our kids are wrong. Who want us to treat our kids like prized little angels, and not what they actually are, which is extremely selfish little people who don't have morals, since morals are a learned trait. Kids should have some fear of discipline from their parents. Some don't need that but many do.
There is a reason that from gen X on (which I'm a part of) is the biggest bunch of lazy, low effort, entitled group of people this world has ever seen. There is no discipline within my generation, no tenacity, we are soft and appethetic, we don't have drive and will. Involved parenting, a parent who's will will never be won over by the child is how a child learns to have that drive, spanking, for some very defiant and rebellious children who don't respond to other things, must be a part of that.
I'm not saying this parent was acting correctly, but if you punish her, if you call using a belt child abuse then you are at risk of making a lot of active, involved parents, who are in this for nothing but the best for their kids, child abusers as well. You are also demonizing a child rearing tactic that has been used for millenia, and quite successfully at that.
Are people today better than people of the past? I personally don't think so, and I think how we raise our children is a big part of that.
Good grief, I chased a boy on the playground, caught him and kissed him when I was 6 and in the first grade. That was over 45 years ago. And I didn't have any children as a teenager. How some of you can jump from a childish crush to teen pregnancy is beyond me. For the record, I was married before I had any children (not to my first grade crush though). So this type of behavior doesn't necessarily lead to anything.
Beat a kinder gardener for giving a kiss? Hello?
That's just? WTF?
Wow!!?
in some ways it is a little scary that more and more people are taking any subject there is and blaming it either on religion and/or politics. Before President Obama took office I never realized how many white people in this country hate black people for extremely stupid reasons. The problem is that it will never end as they teach their kids hate. I have a neighbor a little ways down that actually thinks dogs think link we do believe it or not.
I have 4 children (youngest is now 26) and do believe that an occasional spank for dicipline is necessary at times, but ...
when you must strike a child more than once or use a weapon (belt, wooden spoon, etc) to do so, it is no longer a spanking nor is it dicipline - it is an out of control person who doesnt have the maturity to parent.
When you spank a child, it should bruise no more than that child's ego, not that child's body. Anyone who uses a weapon to "inflict pain" isnt diciplining anyone, just someone who is out of control out and venting rage upon the body of a defenseless child.
Spanking should be so rarely done, that when that one smack impacts that rump end or hand, it should be a total shock and be all that is necessary. Other parts of the body (face, back, legs, arms, etc) of a child should never be assaulted.
Anyone who "needs" to spank more than once or use a weapon to do so isn't disciplining anyone, just merely venting the rage they are experiencing onto a helpless victim.
My children have never been in trouble with the law, are well educated and are loving individuals who lead their own lives ... not followers because they cant make their own decisions or social outcasts.
1 is a rocket engineer, another is a civil engineer, another is in restaurant management and the 4th is at UPS. Not bad if I do say so myself.
Many of you that are complaining about this as excessive either don't have children or will be the same ones complaining about the actions of this child when she's older. My mom beat the hell out of me enough times for me to know that the child will live well past the age of 13. And yes the schools and courts got involved in our upbringing. Were we taken from my mother? Temporarily. And I can tell you this, The ones of us that my mom beat the hell out of turned out just fine. The ones who didn't get the hell beat out of them are using your tax dollars incarcerated or living off of the dole.
So which would you prefer? Uncle Sam using your well earned tax dollars to "care" for this little girl when she's older or her mom doing her job now to make sure this little girl can take care of herself later?
You kinda got to wonder what some people see as "abuse". I am not opposed to corporal punishment; I used it many times on my own children, and now, they on their children. I even took a 1x6 and made a wooden paddle, complete with air holes, like the ones that were used in Junior High so long ago, but, we don't leave bruises, especially ones that last several days. Leaving welts and other visible signs of physical trauma is not punishment, it is abuse.
Spanking = good
Beating = bad
This article makes me wonder. When I was 7, I was sitting in class when a girl, quite unexpectedly, kissed me. Other than surprise, it didn't bother me. She was taken to the office. The thought of her subsequently being beaten with a belt is rather disturbing.
@screwdallas2
It is never ok to hit a child with a belt. That is abuse. As far as everyone that claims that children who are not hit will be spoiled, lazy, etc. that is also incorrect. Those are children who were nevr disciplined. One does not need to hit in order to discipline. This is why we liv in such a violent society. We hit our kids. Remember folks, violence begets violence.
Sadly this woman believes that if it was done to her it's Ok to do to her own!
Lock her up and ask her after a few months if she still feels it is OK to beat a child with a belt buckle?
Please know that children learn from thier role models/parents----if you think it is Ok to beat on your child---then please know that the same child may beat on your grandchild and generational Beats keep on going per generation!!
Echo you are a liar. Period. You do not come out just fine from constant hittings and beatings. So go some place else where you might get an audience.
From the sound of it, she already knows what that feels like because she was raised that way, too. You'd think she might have remembered what it was like for her as a child and figured out some better way to discipline her own daughter.
Any idiot that thinks that is disipline must also think the mother who made the child run until death was a good example of proper parenting. If yoyu can't see the differnce, then you probably shouldn't be a parent.
How proud you must be. When you hear cries of agonizing pain from your young grandchildren and you KNOW that you're the one who passed that down, do you feel like a big bad man?
I will forever be thankful for my military father who felt hitting women or children was dishonorable. There was never violence in our house toward anyone...ever. I own my own business, employee 70 people and have never had a problem with drugs, alcohol or the law. Our three kids were never once hit. Three out of three earned academic scholarships and one was a Presidential Scholar award winner. All three are educated, kind and self sufficient.
Discipline should be teaching and guiding and it should be happening daily. Consequences, when necessary need never involve the torture of a child. It's this mentality that leads to way too many unnecessary deaths.
Those of you who support the mom should still get hit by a belt until you bleed.
The rest of us sane people will enjoy lives that makes sense and sending you to jail when you do it to another.
You could, alternatively, move to Afghanistan, where you will meet a lot of people who think like you. In fact, if you aren't moving, you are FOS.
nonsense. the mother was well within her right, but this is just the next step in the liberal wet dream.
I've seen many a child who could benefit from a swat across the butt, but this is abuse. She's only 7 and probably learned about kissing and sitting on a boys lap from watching tv with mom and dad.
When I was a kid I got the belt. Never the buckled end and it was done over our clothes, yeah it stung a bit, but it never left a bruise or mark for more than a couple days. I have also spanked my son with an open hand. Again, never hard enough to bruise, just enough to get his attention. What this lady did was wrong.
I think I'm equally offended by the reason she got beaten. For a kiss when she was 6 or 7 years old? My son is 4 and has a little girlfriend at school. She gave him a kiss on the cheek as I picked him up from pre-school yesterday. It was sweet and innocent and I thought how nice that he has friends who like him at school. At that age it's a way for kids to show affection, it's not sexual. Think about it, you teach your kid to kiss mom and dad and grandma and grandpa and cousins and siblings... it's natural that they extend that to their friends at school. My son has even been kissed on the cheek by another boy. We didn't make a big deal about that. They're 4! they don't have a sexuality yet!
Spanking a child is discipline. Spanking her with a belt is walking a fine line of discipline.
Spanking a child with a belt until she is bruised & bleeding is plain and simple ABUSE!
I agree with you Lolly1192; people that can't understand that reasoning are complete morons and are just a phone call away from being on Jerry Springer, if they haven't already been on for sleeping with their own family members!
I spanked both my children (one son and one daughter) with my hand when they needed it, and a few times with a belt. With the hand it was 3-4 whacks and the few times I used a belt (like when my daughter told me to shut up) it was no more than two swats and I never left bruises. I dont think I could even imagine using a belt buckle to spank my child with. I do know some parents when I was a kid, who used paddles with holes drilled in it that made it whistle in the air. Nothing wrong with imediate severe punishment to make a point and to teach a lesson. However when you hit because your mad you will always go overboard and thats not ok. Just take the anger out of it and remember why you are meeting out this kind of punishment. Is it to teach a very important lesson or because your mad?
A mother spanks her child for being out of control, then becomes out of control herself... hitting the child with the buckle end of a belt is not an accident. The mother needs some serious help and the child needs a safe place to live until such time as mommy dearest gets well.
Awwww some Bleeding heart liberals didn't like my previous comment...These are ALSO the SAME ones who believe that recidivism NEVER happens and that with more "tolerance" the offender will be "cured" BULLS**T...those that for get the past are destined to repeat it and be killed in the process as they do NOTHING to change it...how sad...:::waits for the community to collapse THIS comment as well.
I think the Teacher from The Breakfast Club [ut it best about "those" individuals..."Gutless turds"
L.J. Rhodes,
You don't attend kindergarten in NJ until you are 6. So it is entirely possible to turn 7 if your birthday is in the 2nd half of the school year. Has nothing to do with bad parenting. It's just a New Jersey thing.
Oh, so the little girl kissed a boy, and now the Universe is going to end because of it. Hey, mom -- it were just a freakin' kiss!
And to Blipvert23: Your hatred for all things "liberal", as shown via your virulently anti-liberal comments, shows that you have some anger management issues that you really need to get help with.
This is a scene out of 'Airplane' where the righteous line up to whoop the whooper, who is really 50/50 in the courts.
I can't help that your momma is a psycho
Me too.
For everyone questioning the child in question being 7 yo, when this happened in kindergarten, read the article! This was a higher court overruling the decision of a lower court, the incident happened over a year ago. From the article: "The Division of Youth and Family Services had been alerted to the injuries on the girl by a teacher on June 7, 2011. The agency determined the beating occurred around May 31." The child was 6 yo when the incident too place, towards the end of the school year. Not at all unusual for kindergartners to be 6 from January on.
This Mother who hit her kid w/ a belt and left visable marks should get the same treatment only 10 times as worse!! the way i look at it is this an eye for an eye, so the little girl kissed a boy in her kindergarten class what is the big deal?? she is only 5-6 yrs old and probably didn't think nothing of it, until she got home and her mom beat her sense less, to where the poor kid can't even sit down, now that is what i call going to far. Someone needs to take the mom and beat her w/ something more than a belt and leave marks on her like she left on her own daughter.
I see a distinct lack of parenting skills. One way or another this kid is going to have a hard go of life. Hope she can grow up normally.
Severe beating for kissing a boy? Irrational hysterics and mental illness clearly infect mom I would say the little girl's chances of not being traumatized by this emotional basket case are impossible. Mom's making headlines for her cruelty now, kind of makes it a done deal already. Poor kid.
"What? you KISSED A BOY? How dare you?".... mommie dearest couldn't find a wire hanger stiff enough.
Really sick woman I think.
Way out of line............
There is nothing moderate about lacerations showing a week later, not to mention the bruises. Of course the kindergartner was squirming, Mom. You were trying to beat her to death over an inconsequential offense. A nice discussion on not sitting on any males' lap until she is an adult for her own safety would have been a good idea, not trying to do physical harm to her.
The mom's excuse of "that's how I was raised" doesn't wash either. Reminds me of a friend who had her first child and her mother and grandmother told her to keep baby oil on the scalp of said child w/ a baby cap over it to prevent "cradle cap" (irritation and peeling of the skin). Kids head starts tuning red and peeling. She takes kid to pediatrician and he tells her that the baby oil and cap are causing the problem. Sure enough, she quit both and the problem cleared up. Moral: Just because it was done before doesn't make it right.
Those that think children should be beaten with weapons should be subjected to corporal punishment in the work place. There are plenty of asses I would have beaten if I could of for being stupid, rude and incompetent.
People who can't discipline without hitting are bullies. It's a failure on their part, not the child's.
Kate, I'm fine with that... but if you yell in anger at your child, that causes far more long-term damage than a proper spanking (I'm not talking about beating like that reported in this article). I had a parent who spanked and one who yelled in anger, and the latter is the one who caused very real, long-term damage into my early adult years. A parent who yells in anger is far more of a failure than one who spanks in a proper manner and circumstances.
I totally agree with you Kate. Violence is truly the last bastion of the ignorant. Poor kid. I once stopped a woman from beating her 3 year old at the market by grabbing her arm. She then screamed at me to let her go or she would call the store manager. I told her if she did not stop beating her child I would call the police. Ahh......she stopped.
I came from the generation that received spankings. First rule was to never strike in anger. Another was to only strike the buttocks. And then there's the one where you only strike enough to get their attention. NEVER leave marks. That crosses the line to beating.
Bernardo, you make great point; Verbal abuse isn't the answer either.
this little girl seven years old is in kindergarten ?? she kisses a boy and her mother frealks out and beats her so bad she had lacerations and bruises for a week later the school says she is not a problem at school .
sounds like the mother has some big time sexual issues and anger issues and wants her daughter to have the same issues that is sick . I am glad the little girl is no longer in her custody and hope the father gets her some counseling . the mother is one sick woman maybe that is why she is divorced.
I agree with Bernardo. The problem was not that she used spanking as a punishment, the problem was that she was angry, and used punishment as her outlet. If she'd waited until she had calmed down, and thought about what sort of punishment her daughter deserved and how she would understand what she did wrong, she never would have given her a beating like this. She might have still spanked her, or she might have given her a talking to, and taken away a privilege or something else but she would have been in control while doing it, and would not have harmed her daughter physically or emotionally. I too was spanked many times growing up, and never had any issues surrounding it. What I had issues with was the time before my parent's divorce when after a fight, my dad took me out and taught me to parallel park for an hour, yelling at me the whole time, and wouldn't let me go home even though I was crying. I was so afraid he was going to hurt me he was so angry. I still think about it every day. I'm 5' 5'' and 120 pounds. He's 6' 4'' and not exactly skinny. I don't think this caused my anxiety issues, but it certainly didn't help them.
K.T.'s lawyer, Justin Walker of Piekarsky & Associates, told the law journal that she "may have been angry but I don't believe (her actions) crossed into the realm of abuse."
And apparently the mother was represented by a sociopathic moron. How is it that there is even any debate over what this woman did. She left LACERATIONS from a belt on a 7-year-old who kissed another child, and she doesn't see anything wrong with it. Terminate her parental rights, already, for god's sake!
you can't blame the lawyer. that is what defense lawyers do, doubt he was a sociopathic moron. But, I agree the woman may be.
So in order to become a lawyer, you have to give up your sense of justice and compassion? No wonder lawyers get a bad rap.
To JrzWorld : Also terminate her lawyer's parental rights, obviously he is cut from the same cloth as her!
Lay off the lawyer, he can't come out a say 'she's a crazy bitch', he's getting paid to represent her and I'm sure he could get into legal trouble if he didn't back his client. Plus, is 'lawyering' legal lying?
I believe strongly in the accused's right to a strong defense, and I believe strongly in the integrity of what defense lawyers do. HOWEVER, these were not remarks made in court, but outside to a law journal in a context that presented them as the lawyer's personal beliefs. The remarks would have had no bearing on the case's outcome, from what I can tell, but appear to have been offered independently. Being a lawyer means arguing your side's case as effectively as possible; it does not mean handing over your humanity and common sense when you are outside of the courtroom, contrary to popular belief.
I'm wondering how it came to the mom's attention that the girl kissed a boy. Did it happen in school? Was this the kind of school that gets all weird and over-reacts to ordinary child behavior? As whether it was abuse legally (as opposed to opinions, which do vary), most states allow parents to use corporal punishment, including punishment with an object such as a spoon, a belt, a paddle, or the like. The legal issue to be determined is whether the punishment is severe, persistent, or otherwise beyond what the law permits.
That mother is way out of line for punishing her little 7 year old to this extent. Maybe Mom needs to get a grip on her obvious anger issues & take some parenting classes. I hope the little girl is ok & has some love in her life & someone that cares for her.
If she does get "some love in her life", her mom will probably beat the sh*t out of her again.
The daughter will be knock-up and living on welfare by age 9.
Are you speaking from personal experience? This shows how much you know. Most girls can't conceive by age 9.
How does this even relate to anything in this article. A child is dealt a severe form of punishment and you come back with that comment? Absolutely pathetic.
romanm What makes you say that?"? Are you stupid?
Geez, lighten up people. Just a little joke. The whole kissing thing, ya know?
Thing is, seems some people actually believe that that is the real issue.
A 6 year old being BEATEN leaving marks, drawing blood, is absolutely NOT a subject to be making jokes about. Totally inappropriate and feeds into a very vocal, hateful segment of sciety which has made it's prescence well known in these posts.
OMG, it was a child! A kindergartner, at that! Children do these things without malice. It was an innocent kiss...have the child apologize to the other child and explain that she is to keep her hands and body parts to herself and move on. Beating a child for this is BEYOND crazy! Poor child, she will now be traumatized about ever kissing anyone or showing affection, thanks to her sorry excuse of a mother.
My son hugged a girl during a recital in kindergarten multiple times. When he heard people in the audience giggle, he kept doing it. The girl started to cry. We showed the video to him explaining it was just too much love and he got the point. Some people don't have the education or creativity to parent.
What was the girl doing, tonguing the boy? I got several whippings as a child, but my dad did NOT beat me for being stupid. There is a major difference between a "whuppin'" and a "beatin'."
I have no problem with a good old fashion spanking, but this one is way over that. A true spanking may leave the skin a little red, but it should not be beat red or break open the skin in any way. Spankings should also be only used for a few severe misdeeds, not every thing one does wrong. I am 52 years old and still remember the four times I was spanked. I shall not steal, I shall not sneak out of the house (not even to the cow barn), I shall not talk back to my mother, and I shall not lie. Worthy of a spanking each and everyone of these. A 7 year old may not realize it's wrong.
Justin Walker of Piekarsky & Associates, told the law journal that she "may have been angry but I don't believe (her actions) crossed into the realm of abuse."
Apparently, Mr. Walker does not believe that beating a 7 year old for "several minutes" with a belt constitutes child abuse. Mr. Walker is entitled to his opinion, but under the law, he is wrong. Except for some who "were raised that way" the vast majority of us recognize that beating a child is abuse.
I was raised that way, as well as alot of people my age. I have NEVER raised anything more than a hand to a child! And esp not for something as innocent as a kiss!
Geez, the only reason to raise your hand to a child is to slap their hand if their are doing something dangerous, or maybe their butt, or to slap their face when they are mouthy, smart-ass teenagers. Even then, you DON'T leave marks!
amye, it is never okay to slap a person in the face for any reason. EVER.
So the lesson is it's OK to beat a person, just as long as you don't kiss them?
*snort* That was funny. Thanks :-)
Yes, this went too far, actual wounds and lacerations are a beating which is a crime, not just a punishment. The mother should have to go through the same thing now or worse, then she might understand what she id was wrong.
Some days I wonder why we don't allow public whippings out behind the court house. That might curb a lot of "antisocial" behavior.
I think I would squirm too you stupid mom. You need help!
Holy crap, excessive much? I'm all for a swat on the ass, (if warrented. lord knows I received my (deserved) fair share as a kid) but this is just ridiculous. All for kissing another little kid. Mom seriously needs to get her (obvious) anger management issues in check.
Growing up I got a spanking if I did something really, really bad. And if I covered my butt, I would get a 2nd spanking.
What a vile and disgusting way to "discipline" a seven year old. This mother needs to be taken out of the realm of parenting entirely, and forced to attend many lengthy counseling sessions until her attitude changes. If she still maintains that she doesn't see anything wrong with criminally abusing a defenseless young girl, then her parental rights should be summarily removed, permanently. It's idiots like this that raise tomorrow's criminals and sociopaths.
I find it interesting your comment. Some might argue that a lack of physical discipline leads to sociopathic crimminal behavior. I was abused as a child by a screwed up mother, but where do you truly draw the line? Do we really want our government forcing us to be reprogrammed. The woman was an idiot I agree, but yeah take her kid from her but what kind of foster care enviroment will she end up in? I am not sure if I have answers, but then when almost all religious holy books describe specific ways to punish or kill people-where do our ideas come from?
Mymon...the mother should never, ever have here child back or have another one. No matter how much she is counseled eventually she will say what they want to hear.
Douglas, your are right and wrong. Foster care or being beat. You decide which you would chose. I know which one I would.
Some might argue anything.
If you're an employer and your employee does something stupid, do you feel the need to slap him in the face? If not, why is it ok to smack kids but not adults?
Our ideas for the rule of law don't come from any holy book. Our founders were clear on that. Sigh.
Evolution. (in America, parents getting dumber with each generation)
Why is a child, 7 yrs old in kindergarten instead of 1st or 2nd grade? American Education system is falling (failing) and regressing, fast and furious.
jwfun, the child was not in kindergarten when this happened, the article stares: "The Division of Youth and Family Services had been alerted to the injuries on the girl by a teacher on June 7, 2011. The agency determined the beating occurred around May 31." This incident happened when the child was 6, at the end of the 2010-2011 school year. A higher court overturned a ruling made by a lower court, which is what the article is about.
How did Mom find out? The school ALSO thought what she did was inappropriate enough to notify the parent then I say she had the right to give her a whooping, but I also say she took it a little too far by leaving marks on her for a WHOLE week.
'whooping" should not be a right for anyone to give out, especially a child. It kills me how many people justify child abuse...
You ever stop to think that everyone is different. A spanking on the ass open handed, one time, is needed sometimes. Look around, tell me if not spanking kids when they get out of line has been good for society? When I was a kid I got the belt, I don't think that was right. But you know what, I never made those mistakes again. Time outs and grounding and getting "on my level" when I was a kid didn't work and I know that it doesn't work well for a lot of kids. I'm sorry but kids should respect and fear their parents. Respect them for taking care of them and raising them, and fear them to some degree over the punishment they will get when the get out of line.
My mom never had any issues about whipping us with a belt or switch, but you COULDN'T see the marks the next day, much less a WEEK later. If I beat you with something, anything and left marks that lasted a week, you'd be after the cops to put my a** in jail for assault with intent to grievous harm. Just 'cause you're a parent doesn't give you that right. (Or someone's spouse or lover or child ......)
I agree - some kids react differently to different situations. I both feared and respected my parents. My only son is now 18 and has only been spanked once when he was around 8. After the first spanking I never really felt that he was not getting the "message" with just explaining what my expectations of him were and what would happen again if an unacceptable behavior was engaged in. Of course, there are many "experts" out there with plenty of opinions. I say whatever your child responds to best as long as instances like this story do not happen.
for Kvorshk
You yourself said you didnt feel like getting spanked with the belt was appropriate but yet it kept you from doing things again...was it because of the fear of getting spanked or was it because you actually learned a lesson or realized right from wrong? these are reasons why I am against spanking because it only instills fear instead of actually communicating/explaining with your kids why its wrong.
It's not like she stole anything. The way I see it, spanking's only a good idea when it's meant to correct a serious character flaw that leads to crime.
What a b****' The mother should be beaten with a belt for punishment for the crime!!
Anyone else wondering where the little girl learned that kind of behavior??
People that abuse kids make me sick, and should never even have kids if they cannot handle them in a loving way. There are so many loving parents out there that want, but cannot have kids, and people like this douche bag just knock them out with no problem!
What a world :/
Ok, lets take a belt, with a buckle, and hit both the mother and the lawyer for two minutes "or so" and see how they respond. In order to get the full impact we will need someone that is at least four times the strength of the mother and the lawyer since we want them to feel the same impact as the child. Dumb a$$es. This women does not deserve to be this child's mother.
Getting beaten for showing affection...conservatives are soooo weird.
Just goes to show that just because you can procreate, doesn't mean you should.
LOL. That's awesome. Unfortunately, those who least need to procreate end up procreating the most.
These are the same people who want to give tax breaks to millionaires but cut funding for programs that help the poor. They don't mind giving out tax subsides to big oil, but don't have the money for school lunch programs.
Go get the belt and let the child beat Mom with it for "about two minutes", leaving welts, bruises and cuts a week later and we'll see who cries abuse.
I spanked my children, but I never beat them with a belt and left marks for days.
And, who the hell spanks a 7-year old child for an innocent kiss at grade school--that's childs play.
Mom overreacted big time and has serious issues here--Dad needs to keep custody.
And that lawyer needs disbarred.
The incubator (her actions are NOT those of a mothering human being) has mental isses even beyond anger management. Anyone who freaks out about an innocent kiss has some seriously twisted social/sexual issues. Her actions sound lik something the moter in Stephen King's "Carrie" would do. IF the father is capable, mentally and physically stable enough, he should be the custodial parent and the mother should only hve supervised visits once she has under gone some intensive therapy.
Not someone who should be having children. Or pets. Or a position of authority. Or friends, for that matter.
Agreed! She does need a therapist, though.
She needs mandatory parenting classes
There's discipline & there's abuse. When a child misbehaves & a spanking is needed (yes they do, and yes it is), you need nothing more than your hand to get the point across. Anything beyond that causes irrevocable psycological damage. What will happen to this little girl as she developes emotionally? As she grows to maturity, she just may associate love & affection with traumatic & physical pain.
This abusive mother deserves everything that's coming to her.
It never ceases to amaze me that people condone hitting of any kind as okay. So, if you make a mistake at work, I have the right to humiliate and hit you? No, of course not. But yet, somehow, people justify it for little children who cannot protect or defend themselves. Most parents are just too dang unimaginative or lazy to find creative ways to discipline that doesn't physically or psychologically traumatize kids. The worst parenting issues I see that leads to bratty, misbehaved kids isn't non-spanking, it's lack of consistency and follow through on punishments. I see kids who are "smacked" constantly and their parents complain loudly about how they just can't get their kids to behave and spanking is the only thing that works, but two seconds later, they're running them off for ice cream or to an activity. Give me a break. If people don't want the hard work of parenting, they shouldn't procreate, it's that simple.
Hitting is hitting regardless of what it's called. Calling it "spanking" just makes an abuser feel justified about their type of hitting.
Well said Jen =)
Excellent post, Jen. When are we going to learn that hitting our children teaches them little but anger and aggression.
I have to disagree Jen. When my kids attempt to go into the street after they have been warned not to, you bet I will give them a quick swat on the butt. When my kids are trying to climb up on the stove after being told the burner is hot, then yes I will swat their butt to get their attention. There is a huge difference between abusing and spanking. Also between hitting and swatting. Do people take it to the extreme? You bet! That doesn't mean parents who choose to yell at their kid or send them to time out for an hour aren't also going about it the wrong way. Being yelled at can leave many emotional scars.
If you are at work and have the mentality of a child and are making mistakes that the rest of adults don't make because they learn to function in society then maybe you should get a swat to wake the heck up. (I certainly don't mean those with disabilities who are on the level of children.)
It is our jobs as parents to raise children who will be productive, intelligent and aware of things in life and what can happen to us if we don't pay attention or behave correctly. While I certainly agree there are more instances then not that a good talking to would be sufficient and do the best job teaching, that certainly doesn't mean that there aren't moments where the sting of a spanking doesn't teach you somethings as well.
Far to often now a days I see 12,13+ children in COMPLETE control of their parents. They have no respect and don't care to because it isn't EXPECTED of them. While people certainly need to deserve respect it isn't always that way in life. Disrespect your boss and see if he cares whether he earned it or not.
Kabbima, I have to disagree with you. These parents you describe whose children have no respect, that's not from not being hit, it's from bad parenting. Children can be taught many positive behaviors without being hit. Vilence begets violence.
Now when exactly did I say that in my previous post gman61? Where did I say a child needs to be hit to learn respect? Because I certainly don't see it, however I can understand your confusion.
I am referring to the fact that children now a days seem to have no one teaching them how to be responsible adults, or teens for that matter. You certainly don't have to spank a child to accomplish that. It really does fall to bad parenting, or parents wanting to be their child's friend instead of the role they were meant to fill: Parent.
However I certainly don't believe for one moment that if a child is spanked that will cause them to become violent. All of the generations before this time where spanked and more throughout their childhood life, and I can think of several of them that turned out just fine.
What this woman did is inexcusable. It was abuse. However comparing this woman to any parent that spanks is a far cry from truth.
Kabbima- I understand your position; it's a common one. How about if your significant other just "swat" you to get their point across? Would that be acceptable to you? I am asking that as a honest question, not being flippant. I understand what you're saying, and especially with the road example, I can see where parents may feel like a spanking is the lesser of two evils when life is on the line. That may work with some kids. But that's NOT what spanking proponents mostly talk about. They talk about their "right" to hit a human being a third or less of their size as a means of control. I'm sorry, but that is sick and twisted, and completely unnecessary. With some children, when spanked, instead of "learning" anything, they become more belligerent and act up. It depends on the personality of the child. I have seen kids who have been severly abused because "spankings" quickly escalated into beatings, since the child "wasn't getting the message". I agree, yelling can be just as damaging, which is why I said physically and psychologically.
Calling hitting fancy words, or softer words, does not change the fact that you are inflicting pain on a small child. The fact that we have multi generational abuse of children in our society clouding our collective consciousness does not excuse the fact that you ARE hitting a child. Because something has endured for a long time does not make it right. If that were the case, woman couldn't vote today, blacks would still be enslaved, on and on. At some point, our society needs to take a step back and call spanking what it is: lazy, bad parenting.
Jen, my husband wouldn't need to swat me to get a point across or to have me do something. It is because I function on an adult level, not the level of a child. Children need a firm reminder every now and then, to listen, to pay attention, to show respect and much more. Whether the parents chooses to spank, as I do in certain cases, or if they prefer to have a firm talk with their child. I don't spank my children as punishment, though you may believe that I do. When my children are disobedient they are talked to or put in time out. As I stated I do and will continue to spank my children if it takes that to get their attention. While it is difficult to get across on the computer I do not strike my children, I get their attention. You have every right to disagree with me.
Yes with some children spanking can cause the opposite as what is intended. That is why it is so important for a parent to be aware of their child and what their child is feeling and thinking. I have never hit my children the way I was hit as a child. However I do use it when I deem it appropriate, which no one on the internet would ever be able to comprehend unless they want to come to Utah and spend the day with my family.
For some spanking can lead to abuse, but to even pretend that is accurate in every case is ridiculous. There are a lot of people who spank who are capable of self control. It takes a family together to come to what will work best for them.
I appreciate your view point on this, it has been wonderful to speak with someone calmly and swap views, even if we don't agree. I understand your point of view and I respect you decision in how you raise/would raise your children. I know I am far from a perfect parent, I will continue to learn and grow along with my children. My only hope is that my children know how loved they are and can become good members of society.
Please excuse any errors or trailed off sentences the chaos when my husband get's home is comparable to a zoo at feeding time.
Katie
Anyone else wondering why a 7 year old is in kindergarten?
Her parents may have started her in school late?
Hardly the point though...
It is a big point when talking about the parenting and the home life. My son started at 4. Most kids start at 5. What is going on in this family (other than the beatings)? That girl is a solid two years behind in school. Someone really needs to look deeper into this family situation.
Wondering, Good Point!!
Depends on the district. A few kids in our kindergarten turned 7 at the end of the year.
I'd say if she gets beat often it's probably led to behavioral and academic problems, poor child!
Nope. When I was 6 (7 by the end of the year) I was in kindergarten. Depends usually on the time of the year the kid was born and how they've matured. Starting kids as young as 4 IMO is too young.
4 years old with a late birthday in my son's case. top of his class heading to fifth grade. I'm glad we sent him when we did.
Good point in 22.2, Wondering. I hadn't thought of that aspect.
I will wholeheartedly agree that this fam needs to be looked into though. KT's reaction is just a bit to much to not (look deeper).
Sometimes they have to wait an extra year because their birthday doesn't come before the cutoff date ..That happened to my niece and she's so far ahead of her classmates that she stays totally bored.
Cutoff dates are different in different states and also many private/parochial schools will have their own cutoff dates. Where I live, cutoff is 12/31 so many kids start at 4 if their birthday is September or later; some of these parents will choose to hold their kids back a year, completely depends on the kid. Regardless, 7 does seem a bit old to be still in kindergarten - even if she just turned 7, that means she was 6-1/2 before she started.
Part of the issue is the growing expectations we put on kindergarteners - the K curriculum is much more like the 1st grade curriculum was when I was a kid.
No, I didn't wonder, because I actually read the article. For everyone questioning the child in question being 7 yo, when this happened in kindergarten, read the article! This was a higher court overruling the decision of a lower court, the incident happened over a year ago. From the article: "The Division of Youth and Family Services had been alerted to the injuries on the girl by a teacher on June 7, 2011. The agency determined the beating occurred around May 31." The child was 6 yo when the incident too place, towards the end of the school year. Not at all unusual for kindergartners to be 6 from January on.
Whether you believe in spankings as discipline or not, NEVER hit a child while in an angry state. You are not in control of your emotions, and you are teaching them that lashing out physically is an appropriate way to deal with anger.
If you are going to spank your child, calm down first, inform them of why they are getting a spanking, and then do it.
And several minutes of beating with a belt is NOT "normal" discipline.
glitter1017,
I agree. You are a breath of sanity.
Like hell, the government is not gonna tell me how to discipline my child. The only problem here is that the mother beat her to the point of lacerations. Other than that, a bruising is nothing more than if a child falls off the bike and gets bruised or gets in a fight and gets bruised. Sitting on a boy's lap and kissing the boy at age 7?? Nip it in the bud now or that little girl is gonna be a harlot by the time she's a teen. This child will grow up normal..so long as "individuals" will keep thier opinions about how THEY were raised to themselves. I work in the school system and see how bad these children act and a lot of times it's white people that behave outrageous about a child getting chastised. Aint nothing gonna happen, mentally, to this child. I bet she won't do it again.
well....it looks like the "government" is telling this chick how she can discipline her child. Whack yours around and they'll tell you too.
It's possible to raise a child into a responsible contributing member of society (I've done it) without hitting them, but it takes...what's that....EFFORT.
Lazy parenting.
Did you really use the word "harlot"?
I'm glad you weren't in my children's school..You are a bi**h and have a filthy mind.
Really? A harlot?
Why not punish the boy, too? He should be taught that such things are inappropriate. Train them while their young to be better men. Not some jack@$$ that gets girls pregnant and runs as soon as he finds out.
Ayana, "ain't nothing gonna happen"... I hope you are not a teacher and you sound like a racist "sometimes it's white people" really?.
You need help and should not be around children.
If you are a teacher, Lord help the children in your care. Why don't you go to a community college and take a psychology class and ask the instructor if abuse to children can screw them up mentally. I bet he would be able to properly educate you.
My husband was raised in a home where his father was a drunk and abusive both mentally, physically and emotionally. Is my husband a person with severe issues? No he's not, but that doesn't mean in any way shape or form that the abuse he suffered didn't affect him mentally. You obviously have no clue as to what can happen to a person mentally when they are abused so perhaps you should keep your uneducated mouth shut before you look any more inept.
That the OP says she works in the school system should worry us. That she thinks this is reasonable is despicable. And that she used the word harlot is inexplicable.
Ayana thinks beating a child until bruising occurs is acceptable. Well it isn't. It's abuse.
I was beat on till I was 14yrs old. Then I killed his ass. Noone has the right to beat any child
why are the names abbreviated ? maybe because the names are Kaquesha If they were white name would be released! how about that no one has played the race card (jessy jackass)
@okienomore54
110% with you on that one.
Remarkable to me that if someone walked up to a stranger and did the same thing, they would be behind bars for years, but an adult does it to their own child and it is 'punishment'.
Twisted world it is.
How maladjusted could this child possibly end up, knowing that the person they rely upon as a caregiver is capable of acting against them in a manner that would otherwise be considered a felony assault? Then again, why should the child accept it?
This amounts to sending a message to the child that he or she is less important than a total stranger, and the law will back it up. Absolutely pathetic.
That it took a review of the case to overturn an earlier decision really shows what laws and this world have come to.
I guess it is a 'Welcome to the Cycle'.
I hope children's services is removing this child from her home until her mother undergoes some parenting classes. I quit spanking my oldest (hand only, never with a weapon) when I saw that whenever someone else did something she didn't like, she hit them. I decided I was teaching my child that hitting was an acceptable response when things didn't go her way. She still grew up to be a great, caring, compassionate, intelligent and thoughtful adult. As did her sister who benefited from the lesson I learned.