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Rachel Held Evans, a Christian writer, fears that a renewed culture war over the issue of gay marriage could alienate young Christians.
As the battle over gay marriage heats up in this election year, one evangelical Christian writer is calling for a truce, fearing that the outspoken opposition to gay marriage among some church leaders could alienate an entire generation of religious youth.
“Evangelicals have been so submitted to these culture wars for so long, so that’s hard to give up,” evangelical writer and speaker Rachel Held Evans, 31, told msnbc.com. But “the majority of young Christians really, really, really want to stop with the political emphasis.”
Held Evans, who regularly speaks at Christian colleges, said the young Christians she meets are much more open to gay rights than are older generations, an observation backed up by polling data.
A 2011 survey by the Public Religion Research Institute shows the generation gap between young Christians and their elders is large, with 44 percent of white evangelicals aged 18-29 in support of marriage equality compared to only 12 percent of those 65 and older.
According to the same survey, nearly 70 percent of young Christians also agree that religious groups are alienating young people by being too judgmental about gay and lesbian issues.
“For young Christians, having gay and lesbian friends is just a part of our life,” Held Evans said. “It’s just really hard for us to see them as mere issues to debate, because we’re talking about our friends here.”
The shift is manifesting itself increasingly on Christian college campuses, including at Biola University in California, where, about two months ago, an anonymous group of students announced the presence of the "Biola Queer Underground," asking that the LGBT community on campus “be treated with equality and respected as another facet of Biola's diversity."
Underground gay group emerges, shaking Christian college
At Wheaton College in Illinois, a group of alumni known as OneWheaton coalesced in 2011 to express its support of the LGBT community on campus.
“OneWheaton understands that LGBTQ issues are difficult to process at Wheaton College,” reads a statement from the group. “We desire this to change for current students and wish to create such an environment, a safe place for them to process these issues and develop into the people they are meant to be.” In response, school officials have said they are open to having a conversation about homosexuality on campus.
To Held Evans, American churches’ attitude toward gay rights will play an important role in the retention of young Christians. In an article she wrote following North Carolina’s recent vote to ban gay marriage, Held Evans points to data mentioned in David Kinnaman’s book You Lost Me, which shows that 59 percent of teens who were raised Christian abandon the church when they become adults. One of the main reasons, the article says, is the church’s attitude toward gay rights.
Fellow Christian writer Matthew Lee Anderson, 30, agrees that there is a generational shift taking place in Christians’ support for gay rights, but he is less convinced it’ll lead to any profound changes in the near-term.
“Those of the conservative side aren’t going away. They’re just going to be a lot more careful in terms of how they frame their positions,” Anderson told msnbc.com.
He also doesn’t think younger Christians are going to embrace more liberal views on matters of sexuality, including homosexuality.
“There’s going to be a large, less vocal, at least a substantive minority – it’s not an outright majority – of younger evangelicals who are going to take a broadly conservative position on sexual ethics,” he said.
That position stems from the conviction that God defined marriage in the scripture as between a man and a woman, Anderson said, and Christians don’t believe they have the right to redefine it.
Jeff Hawkins Photography / Courtesy Northland Church
Joel Carl Hunter is the senior pastor of Northland church in Florida.
For thousands of years the definition of marriage has been the same, said Pastor Joel Hunter, a spiritual advisor to President Obama. “And so, there’s some reason for the apprehension that says this thing is moving so fast that I wonder what the next 10 years will hold,” he told msnbc.com.
In Hunter’s view, the word “marriage” cannot be used to characterize a same-sex union, but he believes having this debate on a national stage offers a unique opportunity.
“We really have an opportunity to raise the level of respect, to raise the dialogue to where no rights of one group trumps another group’s rights,” he said, adding: “The scripture has certain listed sins, and we want to dissuade people from those behaviors, because we think in the long run if it’s in scripture then that’s not something that God approves of.”
Hunter, who leads a Florida megachurch, said he believes the government could establish a kind of civil marriage, which would not fit within the definition of Biblical marriage.
”We don’t 100 percent equate this as a part of the civil rights movement because for us at least a part of this is a matter of choice, it’s a behavior, and so it’s a different category than skin pigmentation,” he said. “Having said that, we want to be sure that all Americans do have citizens’ rights to enter any legal relationship that they want to.”
But finding compromise appears unlikely, Anderson believes, as most players on the national stage treat the debate as a zero-sum game.
“It’s winner-take-all, and there’s sort of no middle ground between the two positions,” he said.
While young Christians may be divided on whether gay relationships should be celebrated in the church, Held Evans said, they’re increasingly unified on their stance against legislative action, such as North Carolina’s gay marriage ban and others that will be up for votes this fall.
"Even young Christians who think that gay relationships are not God’s design, a lot of them will still say ‘but I think it should be legal for gay people to get married, because this is America,’” Held Evans said.
“I think the main problem we have is that a lot of the folks voting about homosexuality, voting about gay marriage, don’t know any gay people,” she said. “And I’m certain that if they did, it would change their attitude.”
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Organized religion, your days are numbered - and this article touches on precisely why. Tell young people their gay friends are worthless sub-humans, and they will spit right in your face.
As a Christian, I am told to love all people regardless of their sin. Christ never told anyone to treat other people as subhuman or worthless. But, he also told his followers to sin no more. And sexual sin is only one of the many sins I have been forgiven of. I am also glad to hear that you think organized religion's days are numbered. Read Jame 1:29 to see what the Bible has to say about religion that God actually respects. BTW, never underestimate the people who follow Christ's teachings. If someone can actually love their enemies when those enemies kill and persecute them, then that love will transform even the most spiteful and mean spirited people. One last thing, please keep in mind that homosexual behavior has alot more to do with lust and self-gratification than love. Have a good one....
But you're overlooking the fact that homosexuality is an inborn trait. How can being born a certain way be a "sin?"
I support religion as a whole, I think each brings something positive to the table. However, many of them are thousands of years old - anyone who takes something that was written that along ago (even by "God" or "Allah") is willfully ignorant. Men have shaped those words over the years, to deny that is foolish.
Organized religion is downright evil in my eyes. They're more of a business than anything these days. The fact that they'd support actions based on hate says it all.
As for people who reference what "God" approves of, like the person at the end of this article, your "God's" belief only restrict those that worship him. To hold others by the same standards is downright stupid. Christians don't like it when Muslims do it, and non-Christians like me don't like it when either group does it.
For reference, I'm a heterosexual 23-year college graduate. I majored in an engineering field.
Alex, the fact that organized religion supports actions based on hate of any kind means they should have no influence on the politics or policies of this country. I'm in favor of taxing religious institutions like any other business.
The fact is, it's not just young people that would spit in your face. I'd like to see someone tell Dick Cheney his daughter & her new spouse are worthless and subhuman. I'd really like to see them do it when he's out shooting Quayle.
- please keep in mind that homosexual behavior has alot more to do with lust and self-gratification than love
So basically you are stating that 2 gay people could not possibly be in love. I see more lust and self-gratification in the straight relationships vs. homosexual ones. They feel the same love, lust and self-gratification needs as everyone else straight or gay.
Hate has nothing to do with it, big dave; it's a biological abberation. I mean, a simple visual examination of the physical "parts" of the two sexes makes it quite obvious what their intended purpose is, and how they are meant to function naturally. And while one is born with the homosexual compulsion, one doesn't have to act on it....and certainly, one doesn't have to shove it in the face of straights who don't approve.
Dan Quayle?......or did you mean "quail"? LOL
I am a Christian...I don't believe true Christians are saying anyone is sub human. Being a Christ follower we must share the Word and what it says...with a heart that loves. I am sorry if you hate me for sharing God's Word...my heart is to love others even at the expense of being hated and rejected. If this were not so...I would say nothing. Blessings.
Toasty,
The thing is the religious right does NOT believe it's an inborn trait, they just see it as an immoral choice.
The Bible says we are born into sin. All the sins of man are detestable in the eyes of God which is why He sent Jesus. Out of love for man.
Your point. Look at someones mouth, it is clearly "intended" for eating. Do you feel the same way about people kissing as you do about gay people?
We use our bodies in all sorts of ways. You placing special emphasis of gay relationaships is absurd.
If all the current horrors happening within the church haven't already driven you away, I doubt the marriage thing will make much difference.
Briteb
Really? So... because the passion has cooled off from the early days of my relationship (of the past 15 years,) I should just throw aside my partner because, I mean obviously, it's about 'lust and self-gratification'... not a partnership, a mutual respect, and yes, I will dare say it, a LOVE for one another?!
It amazes me that people can think like you.
For the record, I didn't wake up one day and say, "Hey, I think I'll start dating men today..." I have never been sexually attracted to women; nor, though don't think it's any of your business, have I slept around. My 'straight' friends (male AND female) have had more sexual partners than me (and it has been by choice, thanks.) Also for the record, I am not the stereotypical 'gay male'. I'm 6'6" tall and built like a linebaker (yes I played in school).
I still cannot believe this is an issue. But, there we have it. The economy is falling apart, children in this country are starving, the education system is in shambles and by G-d we are worried about what the neighbor may or may not be doing in the privacy of their own home. Seriously? We really need to grow up and deal with some of the bigger issues here… This, in my mind, isn’t one of them.
There are many open and affirming churches. The vestry of my own parish has 2 gay males, each in a family. If you are gay and seeking a home try out the Episcopal, Unitarian, the United Church of Christ or many other small parishes. I've recently become aware of a few "breakaway" Southern Baptists churches who are welcoming gays and lesbians. If you are interested, check out the Believe Out Loud movement: http://www.believeoutloud.com/ .
In addtion, I want to add the words of Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori of the Episcopal Church on homosexuality when interviewed by CNN: "I believe that God creates us with different gifts. Each one of us comes into this world with a different collection of things that challenge us, and things that give us joy and allow us to bless the world around us. “Some people come into this world with affections ordered toward other people of the same gender, and some people come into this world with affections directed at people of the other gender.”
spider-737231
And yet as a geneticist and evolutionary biologist I see how it all fits into the bigger biological picture. Your anecdotal comments don't have any weight in these areas.
Also this is about love and commitment, and in closing, if you are sick of this "being shoved in your face" don't click on the story.
This is exactly why I left the Church ( I am still a Christian) Too much Politics, too much trying to break IRS rules on 501(c)3 too much hatred too much theocracy (Yes they really are trying to turn the United States into a Theocratic Dictatorship).
The Church should be taxed and it should ALSO be BACK TAXED to when it was created or when the USA began under the current Constitution. I suspect the Church had a hand in the vote to keep Dictator-Fuhrer Scott Walker in power in Wisconsin. Now Walker is cutting all benefits for Poor, Disabled and Seniors.
I will never go to a church that preaches hate or tries to force you to vote for The church approved candidate or follows a leader who says "Liberal Christians don't pray, they prey meaning that there are no such thing as Liberal Christians. I find this extremely offensive since I am a Liberal Christian. The man who said this should had been fired!!!
And thats my opinion.
To Briteb: Hogwash.
How can you sit there and pompously proclaim that homoesexual behavior has more to do with lust and self-gratification than love, when an entire cross-section of the population - gay and straight - are out there on the front lines fighting for mariage equality every day of their lives? We are fighting for equality exactly for the reasons you place in your post, which is to actually remove the notion that gay people are all about lust and self-gratification, and to let people know we're more about creating loving homes and safe places for our children.
Yes, Briteb - our children. We have children, and we raise children. When the blessed day comes that marriage equality finally lands on us, and rest assured it will, then at least according to you we will be less lustful. And, apparently, we will also practice less self-gratification. Thanks for the lesson in Sex Education. Obviously you missed the class in High School.
I am so sick and tired of hearing people jumping up and down, quoting a book written by a man, claiming how my life is sinful.
People are born gay. Some people also misinterpret what the Bible really means (and it was not written by God, it was written by men). Basically what religions are saying is that God was wrong when he made gay people gay. I personally think that it is a test of humanity and that most organized religions FAIL. How we treat people is our biggest test.
Institutionalized religion answers for far too many atrocities, its moronic obsession with sexuality being just one example.
It's one thing to believe that the universe is more complex than our species and our senses, and that it might even have mass consciousness. It's one thing to fashion moral codes that discourage humans from causing harm. It's one thing to have a personal spirituality that enables you to take comfort in sorting all this out on your own or within a community.
And then there's religion, which too often calcifies into rules enforced just for the sake of controlling the faithful, promoting fear, and punishing outsiders. No thanks. I'd much rather hang around a prairie dog village.
I just want to say that it is not just young people who are leaving the churches. It is many, many older people as well. These so called "christian religions" just pick and choose what they want to believe. I thought you were supposed to love thy neighbor. What a bunch of hypocrites. We really do need to start taxing the churches. They have not lived up to their end of the agreement with the IRS to stay out of politics. They are just big businesses now anyway. It would be a great way to bring in revenue that this country needs.
Well, then usn, would you give us a tax deduction for the work our church does that saves you tax dollars - like the soup kitchen we run, or the food pantry, our homeless shelter, the free site for AA, NA, OA, ACOA and numerous other groups and all the work we do teaching? I would gladly give up my work if you would do it. I've yet to see a soup kitchen run by someone other than a church.
Briteb, thanks for the chuckle on "One last thing, please keep in mind that homosexual behavior has alot more to do with lust and self-gratification than love.".... REEEEAAAAALLLLYYYY?!?!... and what makes you the high authority on what love is and who can love who?.... I'm a gay man and have been madly in love before... you know... the unconditional kind (the kind many Christians don't know anything about)... so keep your 'love' comments to yourself... it's truly irritating when ignorant people speak of those they know nothing about. If your not gay...then don't speak about what it may or may not be like being gay!!!
Krestov
It's not just the story it has to do with television shows, work, school etc. Just sayin
Can you say "entombs doulos" and "Pais"? It means roughly honored servant and young companion (Aramic to Greek). Marriage in the Greco Roman world (and right up to the 19th century and in many cultures) was more a matter of aqusition then what we now think of as being mutually contractual. A Roman Centurion ask Jesus to heal at a distance his "male lover" and Jesus (and I'm paraphrasing) said "it is already done because of your faith"! Apparently the Son of God was only concerned about the health and well being of the party in question... all the while impressed with the Roman's faith! This appears to be the only time Jesus had an opinion on homosexuality in the New Testament... and that of having no opinion at all!
For my fellow Christians I have several questions:
(1) Do you believe sin is a matter of fee will and choice?
(2) Do you remember when you chose to be Hetrosexual?
(3) And by that do you mean you were opting for a prefernce (or something more culturally and religiously preferable) from among your multiple inclinations and or orientations?
I happen to think homosexuality is an aberration too, but I also think it doesn't matter, any more than being born with 6 fingers or toes matters. Obviously a society can't survive if most of its members are gay, but it's not like we're having any problems populating the planet. Maybe a few more gay couples would be helpful.
usn, the pendulum swings both ways. Homosexuals need to practice "loving thy neighbor" and stop with their hatred toward believers.
@Briteb . . . speaking of sin . . . have you ever been to an evangelical potluck meal? Are you saying gluttony is hunky-dory and should be overlooked? What about backbiting and judgmentalism?
When you ar Gay or become Gay, know that you have broken every laws of the Christianity faith
Maxeemas
When you judge others, know that you have broken laws of the Christianity faith
klwesley
I still don't get the problem. I guess its a case of demographics, why should a group of people, who's life is not illegal, not be represented on main-stream media. There is a lot that bugs me on TV but life is too short to do two things (1) Worry about it, its not hurting either of us, (2) push other people in the mud because we may not like it.
Ever wonder how gay people get sick and tired of the wedding shows that are spewing out of the TV, or dating shows showing only Straight couples.
How about a couple who can not conceive, I bet they are sick of couples who can have babies constantly "shoving their reproductive success down their throats" along with baby ads on TV
In other words there are always things out there we don't like. No one is honestly shoving anything down your throat to annoy you. We are all having the same experience with many different topics that annoy us for one reason or another. I just shrug and ignore those things.
BriteB,
Homosexual relationships have as much to do with lust and self-gratification as heterosexual relationships. "Love" is a chemical reaction in your brain caused by the linking of a person to positive stimuli, such as friendship, inter-dependence, and cooperation. The common idea of "love", when the term is used in the frame of a relationship, is the coupling of that reaction with the chemical reaction that creates sexual desire, i.e. "lust". Without the "lust" factor, what you get is "platonic love". Saying that a homosexual relationship is less about love and more about lust and self-gratification is like saying that homosexuals can't have platonic friends, because that type of connection can't possibly be why they are having a sexual relationship with their partner.
spider-737231,
Just because tab A fits into slot B doesn't mean that any alternate sexuality is a "biological aberration". Thousands of species exhibit homosexual behavior, self-gratification, and even inter-species sex. And homosexuals have as much right to shove their sexual preference in your face as you have to shove your bigoted, narrow-minded, and poorly researched opinions in my face; all the right.
Woman 1959,
I'm not sure how you define "true Christian", but the fact is that the mouthpieces for the Christian faith have stood up, and denounced homosexuals as willingly evil and full of sin, and have equated their relationships to two animals giving into their lust, rather than two loving people who are sharing an intimate bond with each other. You were very vague on where you fall on that discussion. However, if you agree with the mouthpieces, then your claim that "[your] heart is to love others" is disingenuous at best, while if you disagree with the mouthpieces, then you should take the time to stand up against the people who claim to speak on your behalf as a "true Christian".
Everyone Else,
I would like to point out that the same arguments being used to denounce gay marriage were used during the civil rights era. The Bible explicitly condones slavery, and celebrate slaves who revere their master second only to God, and serve their master as they would serve God (as long is that service doesn't defy service to God). And if you are going to use the Old Testament vs. New Testament argument, slavery was condoned in both books; you should go back and read it again.
The Bible is an anachronistic book written over the course of thousands of years, it's most recent additions are in the neighborhood of 2000 years old, and regardless of claims of divine inspiration, it was written by man, interpreted by man, and executed by man. Whether you are religious or not, the concept that man is fallible is near-universal. Can we simply accept that this book got some things wrong (like we have about other subjects, e.g. slavery) and start worrying more about being a loving society, rather than a divisive one?
Anyone who thinks homosexuality is forbidden by the bible is ignorant of the bible's original text and translations.
The only section that ever explicitly speaks of homosexuality is Leviticus, and the word it uses (translated modernly as abomination) means "unclean"; it speaks solely to the physical act between males and is also used to describe the eating of shellfish. If this is the statement you wish to use to justify your bigotry, then you must follow every other Leviticus law as written
Some people said in Christianity we re suppose to love one another! that is correct but is this mean we love criminals too.. like Hitler for example and millions like him. God have made it clear that dirty people like Gay and Lesbian are not welcome to his kingdom and hell shell be their place. So how do expect to love someone who is not loved by God! some people make no since!
differnet - You made this point before I could. I agree. The church willingly drops untold millions (not knowing, perhaps billions?) into support of the things you list, but also into "poor relief", like paying a gas bill for a widow who can't afford it. Or making a rent or mortgage payment for an unemployed or "under"employed person. Or paying for a doctor visit for a sick person, or taking up a special offering to cover the health care expenses of an uninsured person. Etc... Etc... Etc... These aren't the occasional exceptions, they are the RULES!
People I church with gladly give up this money, or time, without being forced to. This money is used in society to take care of those who are less fortunate. People who might live right next door to those who rant against the Church for taking care of the "least of these". After all, it could be YOU who is in need next time! Hit the Church with business-like taxes and see how quickly these people, being helped by willful people, are forced to go on the government payroll, to be supported by the unwilling supporter!
Bless you. May the light of the true G-d shine upon your soul and wash away the igrnoance.
Your god never spoke against homosexuality. He spoke against rape (barely, at other times he condoned it), prostitution, and those who used prostitutes. Only Leviticus speaks against homosexuality as a cleanliness matter, and even then only men.
Krestov : Educate yourself or I should say stop fooling yourself! God already Judged whats right and whats wrong! I am not judging.. I am following God Judgement which is already been stated long ago! Gay is a sin
God forgives our mistakes here and there! because we are not perfect and he knows it.. But God made limits to where can we go with our sin! God does not forgive what he has forbiden on us
Know when You pratice Gay, you have seperated yourself from God s Merci and Forgivness
I'm a Christian, too. Straight to boot. Married, two kids. Yet, I reject a lot of what organized religion has taught me about homosexuality. If fact, when I started reading Scripture for myself, I found that I think so much of what was taught to me on the subject seems to be just flat out wrong.
When it comes to a lot of those rules in the Old Testament (especially from Leviticus), the key is understanding that, as argued by many theologians, the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on us (Christians) today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). That’s why we can eat pork and lobster and shave and wear cotton/polyester blends and also disregard the whole “thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” rule, too. As such, folks who like to cite Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13 as Biblical justification against homosexuality really have no leg on which to stand.
This line of thought could also rule out Genesis 19. However, if ya wanted to get nitpicky about it, a strong case could be made that the cities were destroyed because the men of the town wanted to RAPE the angels. Seriously, go to http://www.biblegateway.com/ and check it out a couple different versions. If ya ask me, it seems like the attempted angry sexual assault is what really doomed them, not homosexuality. And actually, you don't have to ask me. Ezekiel 16 (ESV) tells you EXACTLY what the sin was:
"49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it."
Yes, it says "abomination" but go read Ezekiel 16 as a whole. It goes through a whole laundry list of all the abominations of which Jerusalem is guilty. Guess what? It focuses all on heterosexual sex. Homosexuality? Not mentioned!
When you get into Corithians, it’s a stickier wicket to navigate. However, in a recent conversation I had with a LCMS minister friend of mine, I was told it’s important to go back to the original Greek text, so I did. From what I can gather, the two terms used in reference to sexual immorality in this particular letter to Paul are malakoi and arsenokoitai.
The problem with arsenokoitai is that before 1 Corintians 6, the word wasn’t really used anywhere. That makes it difficult to figure out the exact meaning and put it into proper context if you don’t have any previous examples on which to go. It’s kinda like, if you don’t understand a word, you’ll ask someone to use it in a sentence. Well, we don’t have that here. It’s just slapped into a list by Paul. That doesn’t mean he invented the word. It just means it’s the first time we’ve ever encountered it written down somewhere.
When I Googled it more, it seems that the word appeared in a bunch of writings, but they usually seemed to be in reference to Paul’s writing. Whole lotta help that is. In the Latin Vulgate, Jerome translates it as a “male concubine” but he doesn’t do us the favor of saying whether the concubine was involved with a same-sex or opposite-sex partner. It’s pretty much just left as a male lover, period. And if you break down arsenokoitai by looking at the two separate words that form it, it combines arseno (men) and koitai (bed), which would then literally mean “male bed.” Who is in that man bed? I dunno. Maybe it's another man. Maybe it's a woman. It doesn't say. If you can pull man-on-man action out of that, more power to you as I cannot.
Conversely, you can find malakoi, all over the place in the Greek language and there's a long history of its recorded use. For the longest time, malakoi was thought to mean masturbators, but now that’s widely disputed, especially when you start looking at how it was used previously. Jesus used it when talking about "a man dressed in soft (malakoi) raiment" (Matthew 11:8). And because of that association to softness, it was also apparently used to imply a moral weakness. It also seemed to be repeatedly used within ancient Greek culture to define those who were considered effeminate or to describe, as Aristotle used malakos in Nicomachean Ethics, a lack of restraint and excessive enjoyment of bodily pleasures. When you look at the larger context of 1 Corinthians, Paul really hammers on excessiveness. Take 1 Corithians 7 for example:
“8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry THAN TO BURN WITH PASSION {the emphasis is mine}.
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.”
I purposely threw in 10 and 11 because if you want to use 1 Corithians to justify outlawing same sex marriage, then you better be willing to use it to outlaw divorce via a constitutional amendment, too. I’m just saying.
Lastly, I also found some instances of where malakos was used as a descriptive word for eromenos which is the passive partner in a relationship between an older mentor and the younger boy (which in some instances refers to pedophilia and in other instances is in reference to a sex slave). If that’s the context, then when malakos and arsenokoites are used together, malakos points to an effeminate call-boy, while arsenokoites would allude to the active partner who keeps the malakos as a "mistress" or who hires him on occasion to satisfy his sexual desires.
Do you see how complicated it can get when ya have to rely on people translating ancient languages hundreds of years removed from the source?
Anywho, if this argument is correct then Paul is only condemning exploitative sex and prostitution, not necessarily homosexuality (although he very well might be). From what I’ve researched it’s very difficult to discern one way or another. This reasoning would fit in well with 1 Timothy 1:10 since arsenokoites is placed right between pornÄ“s which are prostitutes (which depending on the Bible version can be interchanged with whoremongers or adulterors) and andrapodisths which would literally translate to menstealers (which depending on the Bible version can be interchanged with kidnappers or slave traders). See? From sex seller, to sex slave owner to slave trader. Flows, doesn’t it? And it makes sense in context to boot.
I could get into Romans I, but this post is long enough as is. Maybe I'll post on that later. Plus, I could go on about what Jesus said about homosexuality (here's a hint: NOTHING), but again, that's a post for a later date.
Ultimately, the only homosexuality that I can find the Bible outright condemns, when looking at the original text plainly and literally, are those acts which are hateful, degrading, subservient or lustful in nature which seek to satiate base, carnal desires. And since the Bible neither condemns NOR condons LOVING homosexual relationships (which I cannot find referenced in any Scripture), I don't think anyone can speculate on God's actual stance one way or another. If you do, you put yourself above God and presume to know what only God can know. And that, my friend, is dangerous water to tread. What, then, are we to do about the instances of loving, caring, monogamous, homosexual relationships? I dunno, guess? Personally, I view such relationships based on their own merit, each in their own unique context, as I think we should view any relationship, gay or straight, and probably just leave the ambiguity of the Bible out of such discussions.
Krestov
I agree with you in the sense that there will always be something that makes someone upset on tv lol I have a laundry list and some of them have nothing to do with religion or anything else. I really hate those toilet paper commercials with the bears lol but I don't make a big deal out of it. My mom and I complain and laugh at each other about it.
I don't think homosexuals have as similar contempt/disdain (whatever) as some Christians although I understand your point. It just seems unfair that the only way that Jesus can be said is by swearing or insulting Him.
I don't think many of us care one way or the other so much about what's being shoved down our throats until we get these opportunities to voice our opinions. We talk about it with our families and some of us get to go to church and share our feelings but like Bobby Brown (use to be a fan lol) said it's my prerogative. :)
Maxeemas
Sorry you loose again my friend. The bible is implicit. God is the only one who can point out the sin in another.
klwesley
I lost the entire note I wrote but I agree! Finding the middle ground is difficult! I would hope I have been respectful to others religious beleifs if you see me not doing so, please. call me out on it.
It is difficult for both sides to agree when both sides seem at polar odds. For the record I have no problem with religion or religious people. I have no answer to what this middle ground may be. However you have the right and I do too of course, to voice our views, even if some may not like what we have to say.
Lets agree on this, I get annoyed by those bears in the woods ads as well...
Hate begets hate. I don't personally know any gays who express hatred toward believers, only against those who condemn abd hate based on personal beliefs.
There may be some out there, but it's hard to find fault with those who hate those who hate them.
I am a Christian, an Episcopalian, and get really tired of evangelical fundaMENTALists speaking for me. My Church ordains openly gay clergy and is in the process of finalizing rites for same-sex unions. We approved the blessing of same-sex unions three years ago and are not implementing how to go about bestowing those blessings. The FACT of the matter is Jesus said absolutely NOTHING about homosexuality. He was concerned with much more important issues like how we treat one another, helping the poor, standing up for the rights of the oppressed, and challenging the rich. Even though he spoke nothing about homosexuality, he DID speak a lot about the religious establishment passing judgment on those around them. He made it clear that he HATED hypocrisy.
I wish the gays would stop rationalizing their behavior and just admit, it IS all about the sex. A man can love another man or woman love another woman, no biggie, that's normal. It is acting upon the sexual desire that is an aberration.
The notion that the gay community has that they can dis all opponents of their lifestyle as religious freaks who hate them is not correct either.
Since sodomy has been conveniently struck down to facilitate the current gay issues, I propose we work on polygamy next. It fits all the gay criteria for a convenient change of laws. 1. It's a 'moral' law (and moral laws are downright disgusting, vile and evil 'religious' rules), 2. It's inconvenient to many people and how they 'want' to live, 3. It is between two consenting adults, 4. It's 'in the privacy of my own home' and 5. I'm 'not hurting anyone'
For that matter, why don't we go over ALL those horrible nasty 'moral' laws, and strike them all down! That would be a wonderful step forward for everyone!
There are quite a few 'religiophobes' and bigoted gays on this forum today as well.
Krestov :you make no since at all! if you are Gay! you should not worry about me neither what I said! you should worry about God Punishment. All we can do is Pray for guidance for us and for those who doesn't know what s coming to them! I hope it s not too late! once in Hell.. there is no going back! use commonsince! Gay is a disease and a microbe and it s very dirty job Gay people perform under the watch of God, ask the gay people of Prophet Loot.. they pay with their life for not stopping what they were doing to each other, their prophet warned them but again! people like you are making the same mistake they made until it s too late!
I love when the Christian right says gay rights are not a civil rights issue because being gay is a choice. Well, why does the media let them get away with that. Believing in God IS A CHOICE! Does that mean that we can stomp on religious rights? Hmmmmmm????? Where is the journalist who is SMART ENOUGH to ask that question? Obviously they don't exist...
There goes MSN again, trying to pressure churches into preaching lies. Regardless of what any church decided upon, what is written is what is written.
Bible is quite clear, you aren't going to change what it says. It has been around a whole lot longer than MSN, USA, or just about any nation or political idea. It has survived thousands of years, it will continue.
Maxeemas if your punctuation, grammar, spelling and obvious command of the English language is any indication of cognitive abilities... you're a GENIUS in some quarters! Ironic how little some Christians no about their own faith! There seems to be a direct corelation between the more vocal and misinformed a loudly, indignant and righteous (I'm using this word in the negative sense) professing Christian is and how unchristian they act!
The article is only partly accurate. Children who grew up in the Church are far less likely to leave over subject of gay marriage than those who grew up outside the church. It is politics who needs to stop intereferring in the Church. This is a 2 way street. It is not the govt.'s place to force Churches to accept and support practices that are against Biblical teaching. (Gay marriage and abortion are the 2 biggest offenders, but there are more.)
Whether you "think" you was born gay or straight, it is what you choose to pursue is what is important. That is where the sin comes in. Everyone is born with the ability to commitall sorts of sins, it is whether they choose to do it or not. We are not mindless amoebas, floating around out there, we were given the ability to choose. God expects more from you than an amoeba.
Christ commanded us to love the sinner, hate the sin. You can go right ahead and be friends with gay people all you want; that doesn't mean you embrace the sinful activity they commit, any more than you would approve of, say, your child getting into drugs. You still love your child, but you hate the drugs he's doing. See the difference?
Also, I've seen many people on this thread (as well as the author of this article) suggest that Christians should compromise on this issue of homosexuality in order to keep membership up and appease those who might otherwise leave. Absolutely not! Not once did Jesus EVER compromise on important values, and neither should we! If we do, we have given in to evil.
It's sad how people's morals and values are so flexible. It's depressing the number of people who will compromise their values to avoid offending someone. This is exactly what Jesus warned us about in Revelation. It's coming to pass...
The sheer number of fools who don't even know what their own bible said original is ridiculous.
An agnostic ex-Catholic knows more about your bible than you.
That is sad.
Christianity has been "evolving" for a long long time. Slavery was acceptable to "good" Christians in this country at one time. Not so much now. Divorce was seen as a one way ticket to hell because to undo the will, plan or sanctity of God's sacrament was sinful. Okey dokey now. Racism, just an extension of the thought process allowing slavery to persist. Still in the hearts of too many Christians. Heresy was punishable by many means both mentally and physically. Want to go back to that? So anti-gay will die off in a few generations and the world will better off. Here's to evolutionary thought.
The Churches have more problems than just their gay rights policy. Satan has moved in to the church and is sitting with his feet up on the desk. We'll say a prayer for them
Vince, just because some men in your church have developed rites for same-sex unions does not mean the Lord is going to bless them as He would a marriage. The Lord intended for marriage to be between a man and a woman. Period. No man, regardless of his status in any church, is going to overrule the Lord. You should warn your church leadership to be very careful, as they are on a very slippery slope. Homosexuality is sin; for a church leader to bless that sin is even more sinful.
Fundamentalist Christians continue to marginalize themselves with their irrational beliefs and, unfortunately, use their political power to deprive other citizens of their Constitutional rights and undermine our educational system.
The laws in the United States allow churches to refuse to marry any couple without sacrificing their tax exempt status or any of the other benefits they receive from our country and our government. That is not good enough for them. They insist that no one be allowed to marry these people in spite of the fact that the non-criminal sexual activity of other people is none of their business.
The same fundamentalists choose to reject science and in many areas of our country are still successful in eliminating the teaching of evolution and banning books from school libraries. Their insistence that their own children believe the unproven, unprovable and impossible aspects of the Bible under the threat of rejection, punishment and eternal damnation is nothing short of child abuse.
Far too often the fundamentalist churches continue to promote the superior role of men in society as a birthright and the superior position of Christians in our country. They are wrong on both counts.
Briteb, homosexuality is no more about lust and self gratification than heterosexuality is. It's that kind of narrow-minded, egocentric bigotry that is causing so many problems.
future generations will look back on this time in history and will equate the struggle of gays to gain their rights as similar to the treatment of the american indian and the atrocity called slavery. some of us are just farther along on the jouney of the evolution of man and we'll just have to tolerate the ''religious slow ones'' 'til they catch up. my generation did not accept gays and the thought of gay marriage was not even discussed. gradually we came to know gays as our friends/co-workers as just everyday people with family problems and money problems and had lives like ours-----being gay became a non -issue. the ''coming out of the closet'' was a good thing.
Wow if I only had a dollar for every time some nut case said that Christianity's days were numbered: I would be a billionaire. Do a little research about the "God is Dead" movement (which is about 60 years old now) that predicted that organized religion (actually Christianity) would soon die out. It is now the number one growing religion in the world having overtaken Islam.
I don't see this as a complicated issue at all... I think the church is starting to understand that these "young people" can see through their BS.
Warhammer, please look at Romans Chapter 1. It clearly describes homosexuality as a serious sin that separates the sinner from God. Be careful about throwing out what the Old Testament says about homosexuality. That God says in several places that it is an "abomination" is clearly important and we are instructed to learn from the Old Testament even though we are no longer under the law.
As for your references to heterosexual sin, well duh! Of course heterosexual sin is an important issue and is destructive to our nation. Look at Samson, David and Bathsheba and dozens of other stories in the Bible which say this ever so clearly.
Just because heterosexual sin is serious in the Old and New Testament, does not excuse or lesson the extreme seriousness of homosexual sin.
"How can being born a certain way be a "sin?""
Because the only way to hook people into religion is to brainwash people, making them believe they are sick or diseased and religion is the treatment.
Tank Carson : Jesus did not go to school but he was able to deliver a clear Message from God, I may not be as good as you Tank in wrtting / spelling but I know one thing for sure! Jesus never approved Gay pratice at all! I dont need to spell it right for you to approve it.
God doesnt care about my spelling / Grammer but he cares about human quality and one of them been clean from dirty Homosexuality and what follows.
People like Elton John and others like him have chose a nasty dirty path of no return, they will end up in Hell with the rest of people of Prophet LOOT. Sorry but I have no respect for people who have no respect for God when it comes to this!
wall oj and the others who quote your silly book like someone you name lord had anything to do with it - silly men wrote this book - its filled with fairy tales and miss truths and is only the ancient thoughts and lunacy of superstitious minds - the first page is a joke - you cant even get passed the first page without howling with laughter - they were simple ignorant early humans - and science disproves all of it - bring the writers of the bible here today - put them in a dark room and turn on the light switch - they would scream in horror or get down on their needs in praise ... yeah thats who i want to get my perspective of the universe and truth from - men who if you turned on a light switch their heads would explode - they knew nothing and were infants compared to what we know now - ill go with present day facts and perceptions thank you very much - you go read about your talking snakes - amazing
@j70141 in Colorado...
You do realize, don't you, that saying that "the bible is quite clear" about something is the same as saying that Grimm's Fairy Tales are quite clear? We're not going to change what Gimm's Fairy Tales says either, but, really, what sane person GIVES A $HIT about what a 2000 year old book of fairy tales (the so-called bible) says? Seriously.
For the record, Jesus never said anything about sexuality (homosexual or heterosexual). As a matter of fact, he hung around with 12 single men and a prostitute.
Speaking of respect, you need to open your heart a little more. It appears that a demon has settled into your soul. The bible clearly states to love thy neighbor, which means respect him/her with all their faults - it's what Jesus did. If you were a true believer, you would know and live these principles.
Honestly, I couldn't care less if your education is lacking (if you are ignorant you can be taught,) but you appear to have closed your mind and your heart to understanding. To me, that signals that you have lost respect for yourself as well. The world and heaven is a much larger place than you dare imagine, I would suggest getting out and seeing some of it while you are still on this wonderful (sometimes awkward) ride we call life. Peace to you and yours.
Cynisturb - I agree with you. Organized religion is brainwashing, with the goal of controlling the masses.
Most "conservative Christians" know very little about King James, yet many of them flaunt his Bible at every opportunity as if it is THE WORD, and the way they should live their life.
King James was either homosexual or a very active bi-sexual. That is not my opinion, it is historical fact.
People should read several of the books about the history of Scotland, to get a better view about King James. He believed in the divine right of kingship, and that he was answerable only to God. Therefore, he could do as he pleased. He was a firm believer in, "do as I say, not as I do."
When he got the idea to print a Bible, it was for the purpose of supporting his own views. He hired a total of about 58 scholars from Cambridge, Oxford and Westminster, to "translate the ancient languages." They worked hard to translate ancient Greek and Aramaic into “the King’s English.” However, they did that in fear of their own life, because if one did something, anything, to displease King James, one went among the missing.
The scholars knew that King James enjoyed flowery praise. So, in the preface of the Bible, amid flowery adulation for King James, they wrote: "We recognize this as the King’s own work.” More than likely, King James thought they were being kind. In fact, the scholars had planted a warning to all others – this was not their work, it was the work of King James.
My oldest Bible is from about 1865. The preface clearly states that warning. However the other 18 Bibles I have, do not say the same thing. Over time, other people have amended and edited the Bible, to either delete or change the meaning of passages. From the 1865 Bible I selected Psalm 121 – “I lift up mine eyes…”(because that passage alludes to reincarnation), to compare Bibles. The other 18 Bibles have a different wording, and in some cases, a completely different meaning.
Jump forward to today, and nearly all the Bible toting preachers who are thumping a King James Bible probably have no idea about his sexual behaviors.
Speaking of that, there is very clear evidence that sexual orientation is a genetic determination – it has nothing to do with choice.
I grew up with 4 gay siblings in my family and we were pulled from religion when the pastor attacked them verbally.
In college, I met a lot of gay people and they were just fine. I saw nothing wrong with them, and their sexuality is not of my business.
As for the younger generation pulling away from religion. I can see that happening as church and religion becomes bigger and bigger and raking in over 72 bil a year and then they see just how bad the economy is and people struggling, and yet not one of these churches or religions is coming to the people's aid to assist them financially. Keep your prayers for yourself, because I and millions of other younger people know that prayers are empty and do nothing for mankind. It's just the cheapskate way of doing things without doing anything for those in need.
IMO, church and religion is a sham and should be shut down or made to pay taxes like everyone else has to. All church and religion seems to do is dummy down their sheeple and pick their pockets.
People help people. Save your money and personally help those that are in need. Don't give it to any religious charlatan, because the money won't buy the poor food or help them with their financial needs.
:)
Interesting that folks on here in opposition to "God" capitalize proper nouns, until it comes to the words "Bible" and "God". Just so you know, when God & Bible are used in context, they are proper nouns. You use capital letters to begin proper nouns...
Caligula writes: "the bible is quite clear", and "Gimm's Fairy Tales". In one place, the grammatical etiquette is followed, and in another it is ignored (certainly out of intentional disrespect, not poor education, I guess).
By the way, I can think of about 2.3 billion (with a "b") people on this planet who give a crap about that book of fairy tales (as you call it). How many atheists and agnostics are there in the world today?
People should be judged by the contents of their hearts not on how and with who they bump fussies with.
Doesn't the book say "judge not lest ye be judged"? Doesn't the book say "cast not the first stone"?
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' [tell him of his "minor" sins] when all the time there is a plank in your own eye [that there are greater or the same sins in our own lives which we do nothing about or think we are above]? You hypocrite* [pointing out the sins of others while by pretense thinking of ourselves as above sin], first take the plank out of your own eye [sincerely ask the Lord for forgiveness and learn and live the Truth and Light by His Word], and then you will see clearly [be in a righteous position] to remove the speck from your brother's eye [to judge and to help him out of his bondage to sin]."
Actually, that 'fact' was planted by his enemies AFTER his death. Funny how it came out AFTER he couldn't say anything about it. Not the first time something like that happened to a king.
Actually, I had read some very interesting articles on that 'fact' as well. What was most interesting was that there is NO conclusive evidence whatsoever that anyone is 'born gay'. To date, ALL studies done on the subject have had major issues with their 'findings'.
In fact, from the readings. I would certainly believe that any report found providing contrary evidence, done in the same manner as those that found otherwise, had been released, the media would have laughed it out of existance immediately. But since the same reports were ENCOURAGING homosexuality, the inconsistencies were swept under the rug.
I like the one that was done only on men with AIDS, but had no documentation that the men with AIDS were actual homosexuals. Or the one that was testing hormone levels, and the one that checked brain size and brain waves. All bad studies.... AND the one where they found NO DNA evidence so far... hmm...
Religion scares the hell out of me. It has been used as an excuse to curb societal progression for thousands of years. Not just talking about Christianity here. Why do you all feel like you need to be in our day to day business? How about you keep the crooks and creepers out of your own cult houses before you go on a tirade in to everyone else’s affairs. It just really boggles my mind that something that was designed to give us all good morals and to teach us how to be model citizens is the number one thing that brings out the hate and evil in people.
The bible doesn't teach that anyone is "subhuman" just the opposite in fact. God loves all His people. What He hates are actions. God is very specific about ALL sexual immorality and that includes sex outside marriage (including adultery) and homosexuality. As to religion’s days being numbered – they’ve been numbered since the day Jesus Christ was born. I don't believe that God wants "religion." He wants a people who love Him and all of His children and who serve each other.
Why is this the point that keeps coming up today? If you do this, in my mind you have to do it to any group who is self supporting.
Do we currently tax the Boy Scouts of America, the NAACP, Public Broadcasting Corp, the National Endowment for the Arts, etc...? Just wondering because I'm not sure. But it seems to me if you do it for one, you must do it for all. Otherwise, you are targeting a specific group unfairly.
Maxeemas: You are seriously deranged and sick. I don't know what Bible you read or what Jesus you follow, but I figure if something's not mentioned in the 10 Commandments or doesn't come out of Jesus' mouth, it can't be too important. Why don't you spew some of your hatred to adulterers and the divorced. There's LOTS more in the Bible against those two things than anything concerning homosexuality. And give me chapter and verse where Jesus doesn't approve of gays. Otherwise just shut up.
concernedone
Please tell me the last time you saw the Boy Scouts influncing polictical agendas with the massive amounts of money they have at their disposal...... don't worry I will wait......
That is the difference between those groups and religion, if the church wants to do their thing in their house, fine. But once they step out and try to influnce polictical agendas, you now have to be taxed just like any other business that does the same.
I picked my daughter up from 4H camp this weekend, and we were talking on the way home about how it went.
In the course of the conversation, she said, "You know what, we had a die-hard Republican and a hard-core evangelical in my cabin. And we all agreed that there should be gay rights and that they should be able to get married."
There is hope, after all. The "old guard" need to get with the times or get left behind.
Jesus, Joseph, and doggie-style Mary, when will the religious right go away?
@FL-1064284 Post #1.61
In Romans 1, Paul states the men and women have allowed sex to become their god. They worship lust before God. That takes natural love and turns it into something unnatural. Again, as I stated in my previous post, it seems to me it's the lack of love God abhors.
Read it for yourself here:
"For even though they knew God, they did not honor God as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful...."
Romans 1:21-21 (New American Standard)
In context, this passage says that those who know God and do not give God credit, God gives over to all kinds of depravity: they become lustful and unloving and gossips, among other things. But funny thing, only one part of this passage is pulled out. You cannot take one or two verses out of a whole story and interpret them apart from the story. Yet people always cite verses 26 and 27 and leave out the rest. Convenient, right?
Now, let's go back to the original Greek. First, in Romans 26, Paul uses the term "para phusin," which means "against nature." It is this phrase that gave its name to the "Crimes Against Nature" laws. But Paul also uses the same phrase in other places.
For example, in Romans 11:24, where God grafts the gentiles "contrary to nature" onto the Jewish olive tree; Galatians 2:15, where he says Jews are Jews "by nature"; and 1 Corinthians 11:14, where he says that nature teaches that "...if a man has long hair, it is a shame unto him," in spite of the fact that Leviticus says for a man never to cut his hair or round the corners of his beard (Leviticus 19:27).
By Paul's use of this phrase, it appears that "nature" to him is "a matter of training and social conditioning," in other words, what is proper according to custom. As such, Paul describes men as naturally preferring women. For men whose natural preference is for women, to have sex with a man would violate this. Further, it says these men must "katergazomai" the act of sex with other man. In Greek, that means a whole lot of extreme energy is required to accomplish the deed. That sounds an awful lot like rape. And that's what heterosexual males would do to degrade those captured in battle; it was a pretty common practice actually. And in those recorded instances, the word katergazomai was often used to describe such instances. See? Just as in Genesis, it's all about lust, rape, violence, hate, LACK OF LOVE.
Further, some scholars have interpreted the passage in Romans 1:26 to refer to people who have consciously chosen to have sex in some manner which is not normal for them. (And certainly, there are people who do so choose, even today. Every gay or lesbian I have ever talked to, however, have told me they have never consciously chosen to be attracted to a member of the same sex.) The use of another Greek word "aphents" strengthens the image of a conscious choice. So yeah, choosing to have lustful, degrading homosexual interactions when you are clearly heterosexual would definitely not be looked favorable upon.
Paul in this passage appears to believe that this unnatural homosexual activity was a result of idolatry ("Therefore God gave them up..."). God punished the idolator by allowing them the consequences of their own choice, giving up on them, if you will.
The whole point of the first chapter of Romans is that God's power and reality are obvious to anyone who looks around and that people must consciously choose to turn from God. God's anger is directed against those who deliberately choose to turn away from worshipping God to worshipping or giving magical power to objects, animals, other people, or even to "self." And that's recurring theme in ALL of Paul's letters. He's trying to point out all the things like physical desire, lustfulness, excessiveness of any sort, erects a barrier between people and God. As such, anything a person loves more than God is an idol and lust is love horribly misdirected.
That probably wouldn't be the case for two homosexuals in a loving, caring relationship; especially two committed enough to take vows of marriage. I would, however, go so far as to state that a heterosexual man and woman engaging in the act of sex out of lust rather than love would be more abominable to God than two homosexuals who have intercourse founded out of deep love and affection for one another.
If ya really want to harp on a truly LITERAL interpretation, check this out: http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_126-27.htm Then, get back to me.
On more thing to chew on. I spoke of Romans II earlier. It's important to always note Romans II when using Romans I to speak out against homosexuality. In this letter, he is concerned with trying to bridge the gaps between Jewish Christians and Greek Christians who were judging each other and putting each other down.
Paul starts by talking about those "awful pagans" - a group which both Jew and Greek Christians felt superior to. He gives a laundry list of "sins" and the Christians are probably going "Yeah! Yeah, those bad people! We are better!" Then, after having caught them in their judgment of others, he says, "by judging, you pass judgment on yourself." By using a pagan example of sins, Paul could go on to say, in effect, GOTCHA! Do not judge! He said, "God shows no partiality" (2:11).
See? By using Romans I to condemn homosexuals, or even lust filled sinners, according to Paul you are condemning yourself. We're all sinners, and as such no better than anyone else. So, if people are in a loving relationship, whether gay of straight, we should support that love. If they are acting strictly out of lust, putting sex before God, let them to their own devices so long as it is consensual and no one is getting hurt. God will judge them in His own good time.
Homosexuality is a sin, plain and simple... just like stealing, murder, lying, etc.
I don't care what 1000 liberal churchs do... I will obey God instead of man and their rules.
I love homosexuals and I went down to the Pride parade and shared the Love of Christ with them... I want them to be saved and repent of their sins... just like everyone else...
Stop lying and saying that the bible doesnt say homosexuality is a sin... when you do that you discredit the bible and TRUTH...
These people who are leaving the church are no longer christians. Does it have something to do with gay rights? Probably not. Most likely these are people who are falling away from the church. Jesus warned this would happen in the last days. ( Mathew 24:5-14)
Unlike other "religions" once the relationship is gone with Jesus then there is no more christianity. The bible tells very specifically in those cases to treat these people as unbelievers. However, there is hope for them found in James 5:19-20.
As for gay rights, despite what all you liberals think, Jesus supported man and woman relationships. Do I need to quote those verses too? Look at Mathew 19:4-6 .
Hate to break it to you, but the Bible is not near what it was when it was written. It has been altered, poorly translated edition after edition and parts the church didn't want you to see, have been removed.
Not to mention, most of what is in the Bible was taken from other cultures or beliefs.
NyMike: You are obviously catholic which is where you get your stance. I hate to break it to you but you are the reason the bible was translated into a newer edition. Would you have read the Original King James Version of the bible( first translation into English)? Could you even understand it? The newer translations were made for people like you to help you to better understand it. But if that doesn't satisfy you, I'm sure we can scrounge up a copy in hebrew and latin for you to read.
Quick ? If you're a young Christian, how do you support gay marriage, or being gay period? No, really? If you base your salvation and eternity on the written word of God, how is there even a question? There's not a book, verse, or chapter in the bible that supports being homosexual. In fact, homosexuality is condemned in both the old and new testament. Is there some kind of new gospel, because I don't remember there being one. Even if an angel appeared preaching anything other than what's in the written word of God, scripturarlly, you're supposed to count that person as a curse. What does the bible have to say about it?
Gal 1: 8, Eph 5:1-7, 1 Cor 6:18-20, 1 Cor 6:9-11, Rev 21:8, Heb 13:4. The list goes on and on, but yet, young "Christians" think that somehow Christianity is some kind of democracy. I dare anyone to read those verses and still buy into this propaganda. Do you get to vote on how you get saved? Do you get to vote on how you get into eternity? No, so how do you get to vote on your opinions concerning being gay? Like sharks in the water, the liberals, feeling puffed up from their "victory" in health care, have once again decided to push other agendas down our throats: this just in "young Christians really favor gay marriage, and if you stand against it you'd really be turning them away, so can we allow it already"
Biblically, you're not even supposed to eat with another "Christian" who engages in fornication, so, where did they get this idea that God is okay with homosexuals? Anything connecting homosexuality to love is mainly liberals playing verbal gymnastics, and it ain't even been scientifically proven as natural. The ApA just threw up their hands and said, "We don't know where sexual orientation comes from, but believe it to be the product of environmental, and "possible" biological causes." Ahem...Ahem...Ahem.
Does the ground really have to open up in church on Sunday before people start to get the message? Maybe the pastor needs to open his sermon with: 'Bwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwh" *retains composure after vomiting* "Sorry guys, just felt a bit nausious", to accurately represent how God feels. Saying you're ok with something is one thing, but don't, on unsubstiated grounds twist scripture to support your delusion. Technically, sex outside of marriage isn't even supposed to be mentioned among Christians. All these people saying God this or God that, show me one verse in scripture where the God of the bible approves of same sex marriage or has ever said that marriage should be between anyone other than a man or his wife. For that matter, show me where God says sex has any place outside of marriage. Just because human beings cave in to certain desires, where has God changed in all this?
Retention of young Christians? Has the church become the boyscouts? *over the intercom*: Memberships are really low this week, we need to start caving in on our position about homosexuality. Give me a break. If the youth in church are really there for God, then their homosexual friendships won't matter, more than their relationship with God. Did no one else read "broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many there be that find it" Jumping on the bandwagon fallacy is stupid!This is a prime example of the deception plaguing the world today. People seem to think there are no longer any absolutes. I knew it wasn't going to be too much longer, after the health care battle, before "gay" articles started popping up again.
It amazes me that so many "finger pointers" can attack Christians for a standard they can't even live up to, and ain't even trying to. Yet, the hypocrites calling Christians hypocrites based on their perceived standard of perfection. Most people have no idea what it means to be a Christian. When was the last time you prayed for anyone who stabbed you in the back or despitefully used you? When was the last time you forgave, from the heart, up to 490 times a day? When was the last time you loved your enemies? If you can't do those things, how in the heck are you going to talk about people that do as though your better than them?
Warhammerthree: Where do you make this stuff up? Haven't you read my above post about JESUS talking about male and female relationships( Mathew 19:4-6)? Not male and male.... not female and female..... Jesus did dealt with the subject of marriage as you can see.
Stop twisting the bible to suit your beliefs. Jesus would condemn those two homosexuals in the same way he would condemn two fornicators. He considered both to be sexual sin. Talk about being equal? Well there you have it....
No where else does Jesus confirm other types of sexual relationships.... only male and female (and only on the condition of marriage). It's time you got through your head.
uw_db14 Thanks for waiting!
You missed my point. If you decide to tax one group, you have to tax them all. You can't tax one specific group because you don't "like" them. THAT would be unconstitutional!
But since you bring up a point, how about the others I mentioned? They all have money, and they all clearly promote a leftist platform - absolutely no doubt about it. Google it yourself and find the 100% truth to my assertion. NO ONE will doubt it.
Gotta run! Peace!
@Warhammer Three
Should we continue in sin that the grace of God may abound? Nope!
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:9-11)
The key phrase there is "were" as in not anymore. Two wrongs don't make a right, in essence, you're saying that without repentance they both burn, so what's your point?
dave's the name;its your days that are numbered, i do not say this to bash you,you desire to be god, so the world can live by your rules, in some ways at one time or another we have all tried this foolish approach. the truth is god is god and he always will be god, if you were thrown out of a plane with no shute would you cry to your self or call out to god, dave you know the truth, all of us know the truth, but yet the old flesh wants to pretend it is god, as far as gay 's god hates the sin not the sinner, serving god is not like burgerking, you don't get it your way , you get it god's way or not at all,i know some will hate me for writing this, but its the truth , god help you to find the truth before its to late
I get a kick out of those who know nothing about the Bible try to tell us it cannot be taken literally. And to those who say we need to come into line with man's current ways of thinking I say prove to me that mans way of thinking is anything but destructive! And don't give me the tired old excuse of "Well there are a few bad eggs among us." Death and sin are in all of us.
I'm not a Christian, so I could be wrong, but here goes anyway:
The doctrine appears to be based on a belief that God has created a world of blessings, but also of challenges, and that if we face the latter successfully, following its tenets, so sweeter shall be the former, on earth, and later in heaven.
One form of challenge is to overcome your inborn libidinous temptations (e.g., sex drive) in a manner consistent with those tenets. That means no hanky-panky for heteros before marriage, but for gays, it's even more daunting--no hanky-panky ever, because that is the challenge God has given you. So you're not sinning by being gay, but by indulging in gay sexual behavior.
I suppose at one time, it was fervently desired by many gays--and their contemporaries--that such yearning could be eradicated through counseling and praying and electric shock treatments and whatnot. There is still a cottage industry that claims that this is your responsibility to do, in some circles, although electric shocks I believe have plummeted drastically.
But as science seemed to be uncovering data that supported the idea that such sexual orientation was inborn, it panicked many hetero Christians since it contradicted scripture and could dangerously evolve into a civil rights issue that history had shown would undermine their stance. So claims that it was a "lifestyle choice" were put forward to keep the onus on the gay individual (suspenders, and a belt), sometimes accompanied by the insistence that fulfillment of a "gay agenda" was where the movement was really headed, and that society would eventually become a latter-day Sodom and Gomorrah.
So that's how many Christians can be reconciled--loving your gay neighbor (the sinner, like all others) and hating the sin (outside of marriage sexual expression). That marriage isn't open to these people isn't their fault, they can claim, its what God wills. Life isn't fair or long; but you'll be rewarded through the power of Jesus' redemption like the rest of us who conform.
That sexual expression is difficult, if not impossible, to squelch for long, is immaterial. It's your duty to resist, and pray for forgiveness when you (almost inevitably) "stray". If such a program results in repeated failure, you can pray to be relieved of any feelings of shame or self-loathing that may result, even if many believe that the former is useful as an inducement to behave. But God doesn't want you to hate yourself, because scripture says to "be joyful in the day that God has made".
Well, good luck with that.
ItIsWhatItIs: can you point to the direct part of the bible where Jesus, the Christ, condemned homosexuality ? No ? Neither can anyone else. If homosexuality were important, wouldn't Jesus have taught about it ?
I don't care which version of Christianity you belong to, so long as you do believe. I happen to believe that God, through Jesus, has saved everyone who believes and accepts His freely given grace. No one is excluded from God's grace, not prostitutes, not thieves, not tax collectors, not even Republicans. Those who condemn homosexuals and exclude them from their church do not do the work of Jesus Christ.
Shirley : Been Gay or encouraging it or supporting it is same sin as been Gay.
That Demon you just mentioned will take you down to hell
if Jesus was around 11 or 12 or 13 guys it doesnt mean any of them is gay you stu p i d B i T c
Jesus never had any affair with That Prostitute you mentioned you du mp a s . you watch too much movies. Shame on you. You should ask God for forgivness
wow, this is something thats very serious and I must say for the Christians and "liberal" Christians(whatever that means, b/c i thought there was only one kind of Christian and that was the one who believed Jesus Christ was the son of God and God raised him from the dead. and by profession of our faith we became one in Christ who believed and teached the same things as did Christ) What apparently some Christians dont understand is that hating the sin of homosexuality is not hating the sinner for it is written any man who loves God, hates evil(sin), it is not about hating anyone, its hating evil. Gay rights explain that to me, i understand there are rights that have been established by the government but i promise you no right will slip through Gods perfect and just judgement, Christians are not trying to condemn or "hate" anyone or change anyone but deliver the truth that was given by God, for Jesus never said well u have the right and I dont want to impose on that but he said repent(or turn) from your sinful ways or you will PERISH(die and spend eternal life in hell) as for the person who tried to make the argument God made someone gay, that would contradict what he says, so if he hates sin which he labeled homosexuality a sin, then why would he make a person gay, didnt he say himself that a man was to be united with a man and give a man to a woman that they may reproduce and multiply, how is that possible for a man/man, or woman/woman to do. its not. and another thing Romans 1:26-27For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error., last thing Christians dont speak out against homosexuality so that people will be like us but b/c there is a way that God designed for us to have relationships, imagine if everyone was gay none of us would be here, and as far as "hate", we teach these things b/c of love, if i see you running in the street and a car is about to hit you, could i say i loved you if i let the car run you over or would i love you b/c i said hey turn from what you are doing you are about to die, love is not agreeing with something that will surely bring you death, love is saying hey i dont want you to die so get out of the street, so from this standpoint love is saying hey God promised death to everyone who does not repent from sin and give their lives to him. that is all my friends be blessed, and the reason america is falling by the way side is because we dont live in the spirit of God we live in the spirit of America and its beliefs. Wake up people the time is coming.
The entire argument against homosexuality is that they say it's a choice, that you choose to be with the same sex. Technically, you DO choose to be with them. You don't choose who to be attracted to, only to follow that attraction. This entire debate is going to spiral into free choice vs. God's absolute law, even though God has several other absolute laws, but for whatever reason, we don't follow those. Yet for some reason, being gay is seen as just as bad as the sin of murder. I don't see town hall meetings over wearing poly-cotton blends, keeping the sabbath sacred, or stoning children who disrespect their parents.
My own thoughts? I agree whole heartedly with the article. This generation is growing up with folks out of the closet, gays are just part of life. They're friends, neighbors, parents, teachers. The older generations had them posed as the boogey man, the great evil that would lead us to destruction, brainwashed into blind hatred. Some overcome it, some are still brutally bigoted against it. Heck... this is the very reason I stopped following Christianity. I never felt the love of God, and I was told no matter how good a person you were, you'd burn if you weren't Christian.
Would you follow a group that sentenced eternal pain and torment to your friends based on who they loved, or what religion they were? I don't want to run around worrying about everyone's souls, thinking that our very bodies are evil and polluted and corrupt. I lost my faith in the Gods above, and the more and more hatred I see, I lose my faith in humanity as well. We're not only breeding the next generation into faithless, but into hopeless cynics, and that's going to hurt them in the long term. I doubt gays are really the gorilla in the room we even need to focus on if we want to help these kids, but it's not really about the kids, now is it? It's about people thinking gays are icky.
@themonkeh, i will have to disagree with what you say, why does everyone think that this is about hatred, Christians dont teach people to hate gays, the bible says if you love God you hate evil, not evil doers, but evil. And just as the government sentences people to death not out of hatred but out of law breaking is it not just for a God who offers you clemency and says i will take your place in hell will you allow me to, is it not just for the creator of the earth to sentence you to death. Not for sinning for we have all sinned but for not accepting your "plea bargain" so to speak. i hate to refer to it like that but i use it that way b/c most of you can only understand these things in the form of worldly talk. so he says all you have to do is give me your life and follow me, for i have "better" things for you, not worse or the same but also eternal life, and all you have to do is turn away from the same sin which causes so much pain and turmoil anyways. think about extramarrital affairs, does that not cause great pain and suffering to relationships, so what God tells us is to save us from these heartaches and pains and sufferings and offers us a life that has so much more promise and hope. So with that said just understand sin is not acceptable, sin is expected but not acceptable, and I cant change my views b/c the world changed theirs when God said long before the "constitution" do not conform to the ways of the world b/c he knew that the world who is influenced by satan would ask that we change our stance and accept evil instead of teach repentance, well my friend I cant do that, for Jesus said repent(or turn from your sinful lifestyle) or you will perish(die and be sentenced to hell). thats truth, how you take it is up to you, and i would love to not teach repent or die but Jesus never said well let me be nice to these guys and just go with the flow, he said repent or you will perish, and that my friend is truth.
All this bible quoting...I guess I try it too...in my bible jesus sucks hard on a donkey and then gets a big surprise...why is not my version just as valid? I'll wait.
I think it's in Donkeys 1:12, and I believe it says "And the donkey did cum on to he who sucketh for our sins...."
Briteb you are wrong about that. My aunt is a lesbian and she has been with the same partner for over 30 years. Their relationship is built on love and trust and is one that I have modeled my own marriage on. My mother is straight and has been married 6 times, her brother has been married 7 times, her other sisters have both been married 3 times each. The only one of these 5 siblings that has been in only one serious relationship is the lesbian. On my fathers side of the family my grandparents were both on their second marriage when they married one another in the 50's, my father has been married 3 times, my uncle 2 x and my aunt swore she would never marry after her 1st fiance turned out to already be married with 3 children and her second fiance left her for another woman. She finally ended up marrying a man that had been divorced 3 times prior to her.
The lesson I learned from this is that it does not matter if you are straight or gay it only matters if you find the person that will support you, love you, stand by you even when you are being a complete @ss, tolerate you when you are being a bore, lift you up when you are down and soar with you when you are up. That is not self-gratification or lust, it is love.
I wish if Jesus was send to the Muslims, none of you guys would talk s h i t or make fun of him, too bad!! Christians dont have the stomana to stand to those who make fun of Jesus, shame on you
Unhappy (Post #1.85)
First off, I'm twisting nothing around. I am reading the Scripture EXACTLY as it is written in its original Greek. Are you doing the same, or are you simply relying on what you've been spoon-fed by others? I'm also presenting it in full context, as opposed to just picking out one or two key verses. You'll see how that's important when it comes to eunuchs and marriage in just a bit.
Anywho, Jesus only spoke of marriage when he was confronted by the Pharisees on the subject of divorce. I'll refer to a generally accepted translation rather than post the original Greek, but I will refer to the Greek later.
From Matthew 19 (NIV):
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Really, the main point here that Jesus seems to be hammering home is that divorce in a HUGE no-no, but he framed it in the context of God's ideal for marriage between a man and a woman. And the apostles are all like, "Well, geez, if you're gonna put all these limits on divorce, then its better to just stay single." And Jesus is says, "Well, kinda, sorta. Those who can get married and fulfill God's ideal should (The one who can accept this should accept it) but there are obviously some folks who really aren't cut out for the whole marriage thing ( Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given). He goes on to note three exceptions, involving eunuchs (who physically can't have sex), or clergy (acting like eunuchs) who devote themselves to the Lord (which promotes celibacy – and I'm assuming is the justification for canon regarding Catholic priests). Jesus goes out of his way to provide exceptions to marriage, including the ONLY justification for divorce (from the Greek "pornes" which is translated to sexual immorality as a broad brush to include a whole host of activities such as prostitution or adultery). I also want to point out that I've found several derivatives of "pornes" attributed to the original Greek and I'm having difficulty nailing down the EXACT form of the word used in the original texts.
Regardless, I have to wonder that if the over all issue of marriage and divorce was such a huge, important issue, why did only two of the four authors (Matthew 19 and Mark 10) include it in their Gospels. I don't have an answer. It's just something to think about. Further, if gay marriage was such a big taboo, don't you think Jesus would have taken the time to explicitly outline it like he did for eunuchs (which, by the way, is only in Matthew)?
Instead, He said NOTHING. He has remained a theological Switzerland in a cultural World War. Please, show me where Jesus condemned homosexuality. Not Paul. Not the Old Testament. Jesus. SHOW. ME. THAT. SCRIPTURE. It might be tough to do. Out of the 31, 173 verses in the Bible, only about 9 directly address this issue.
I said this before, and I'll reiterate it here: since He neither condemned NOR condoned LOVING homosexual relationships (which seems to be the case for all of the Scripture I cited in previous posts), I don't think either you or I or anyone can speculate on His actual stance one way or another. If you do, you put yourself above God and presume to know what only God can know. And that, my friend, is dangerous water to tread.
Ultimately, the only homosexuality that I can find the Bible outright condemns, when looking at the original text plainly and literally, are those acts which are hateful, degrading, subservient or lustful in nature which seek to satiate base, carnal desires. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IT STATES OTHERWISE IN FULL CONTEXT WITH THE REST OF THE PASSAGE.
What, then, are we to do about the instances of loving, caring, monogamous, homosexual relationships? I dunno. Guess? Personally, I view such relationships based on their own merit, each in their own unique context, as I think we should view any relationship, gay or straight, and probably just leave the ambiguity of the Bible out of such discussions.
ItIsWhat!t!s (Post #1.87)
First off, your translation my not be accurate. The actual word "homosexual" was not introduced into the public lexicon until the year 1892 in the English translation of Krafft-Ebing's original German publication "Psychopathia sexualis."
THE ACTUAL GREEK USED IN CORINTHIANS WAS ARSENOKOITA. It's a word that Paul MADE UP. His use is the first use of it, so folks aren't 100% sure what it means. It stems from arsen = “male,” and koite = “bed,” which translate the Hebrew for “lying with a male.” Notice, it doesn't specify which gender is lying with that male. Could be a guy. Could be a girl. For a while it was translated as Sodomites. And if you read my previous post, the sin of the Sodomites (from Ezekiel 16) was their greed, sloth and unwillingness to help the poor and hungry. The rape of the angels was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
The point is, all of Paul's examples here are of relationships that are HATEFUL, DEGRADING, DEBASING, SUBSERVIENT or LUSTFUL in nature which seek to satiate base, carnal desires. Whether you are straight or gay, if you engage in those acts, you need to repent.
My point is that I don't believe for one instant, and I can find no Scripture to the contrary (you are more than welcome to try), that a mutually respectful, loving, caring, compassionate, monogamous relationship, whether you are straight or gay, is a sin.
Love is love. And acting on love, in my belief, is not wrong. That, dear What, is my point.
Maxeemas:
Wow... . Just wow. I would like to point out that nowhere in my post did I say that any of the apostles were gay, nor did I say Jesus had an affair with, and you’ll pardon me but I’m quoting you here, “That Prostitute,” those were your words and your assumptions. My point was that Jesus did not condem even a lowly prostitute.
Though I must admit, I am dumbfounded by your personal attack on my being in response to a simple post. There is obviously a lot of hatred in your heart; I pray that you can make peace with yourself.
Oh and a random fun fact for you: the last movie I watched was in 1982, I do not watch movies, nor do I own a television.
Maxeemas, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
...
ShirleyJ., that simple post was also unnecessarily personal, with the demon prognosis. Follow #1 as well.
Actually, the word ARSENOKOITA comes from the greek version of the Bible which reads:
The people that Paul was writing to when he wrote that letter were Greeks and were thus using the Greek version of the scriptures and knew perfectly well what he was talking about.
Um ... no.
If Paul was truly concerned with making a clear point to the Greeks, there were a number of common Koine Greek terms he could have used. The word "arsenokoitēs" never appeared in any known Greek texts prior to Paul's use of it.
If Paul meant to paraphrase Leviticus, reaffirming the ancient laws, then you fall into the logical problem of having to justify capital punishment for cursing your parents, committing adultery, and banishment for having sex with a woman during her menstrual cycle.
Again, I do not dispute the right of a person to hold whatever beliefs he/she chooses, but claiming clarity where none exists is just dishonest.
Regards
That's silly.
"He didn't use the word that I approve of, so it doesn't count."
Is that really your argument?
He took the word and mixed it together directly from the scripture that he wanted it referred to. I even provided the direct quote. If he didn't use the word you like, that isn't going to change it's meaning.
The word specifically means, "men bedders", and comes directly from the scripture talking about men being with other men, as they would a woman. Just because he coined the word out of scripture doesn't make it an excuse to ignore it. Besides, there are PLENTY of MANY other scriptures that speak on the same subject which add even more clarity to the subject.
And no... just because he grabbed the word out of Leviticus DOESN'T mean we have to do any of those things. He was talking on homosexuality, period. Not on the rest of that nonsense. You are trying to argue that since he used the scriptures that were available to him (New Testament didn't exist yet), and that they studied those scripture, then we are under Levitical law. Nonsense.
No, it's not.
Further dishonesty on your part. I never spoke to any personal judgement, but to the lack of empirical information regarding the etymology and provenance of the term being examined.
There are respected members of the academic community who have spent decades studying language and history, and you sit back in your computer chair with your high school education and declare you have some learning or wisdom beyond such people?
I never said the word or the scripture should be ignored. Is lying your only defense?
No, there aren't. Apart from the 4 passages already mentioned (Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10, and Leviticus), I defy you two name two others.
Yes, you do. If you make reference to a body of laws, but then say "Well this law counts, but this one doesn't, and this one is out-dated...," etc., you're being nothing less than disingenuous and hypocritical.
Regards
Of course it is. Denying it isn't going to change that fact.
Of course you did. You said that he didn't use the exact word that you approve of, so you don't want to accept it. If I had said gay instead of homosexual, it would be the same issue.
Said the pot, calling the kettle black. You are the one that refuses to accept the translation provided by these 'respected members of the academic community who have spent decades studying language and history.' Who do you think translated the Bible to begin with? Bartenders?
You deny me 'two' name two others? This coming from someone sita back in his computer chair with his high school education and declares he has some learning or wisdom beyond the respected translators of the Bible?
What incentive can you give me to bring up the other translations? From what I have read so far, you are just going to cover your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and deny you see or hear anything.
Tell you what, you send me a $25.00 research fee to my paypal account, and I'll provide them for you.
Oh okay, if you say so.
The word ARSENOKOITA has also been translated as "pimp", and alternately as "those who use male prostitutes".
Congratulations, you've damaged your own credibility. Anyone reading these posts can read back and see for themselves that your claim is a lie. :-)
John Boswell says "arsenokoitēs" does not refer to homosexuality, but to any form of anal sex. Richard Hays says Boswell is wrong. Robin Scroggs says it likely refers to a form of pedophilia, but Charles Scobie disagrees.
Since some of the foremost experts cannot agree, with what mental gymnastics are you proposing I am refusing "to accept the translation?"
I stated plainly and simply that no one translation has proved itself to be any more accurate than another. I have rejected nothing.
Which version do you wish to discuss? KJV? AB? ESV? NAB? NIV? NLT? CEV? Good News Bible? The Living Bible? The Douay-Rheims Bible? Since you are equally unqualified to speak to any version on an academic level, you can choose. Then we can discuss accuracy.
Now where is your proof that Boswell, Hays, Scroggs, or Scobie is any less qualified to interpret ancient Greek than the writers of the aforementioned Bibles?
Oh, wait, I forgot: You don't provide references or proof, you just shoot your mouth off.
See, I knew you couldn't do it. So your statement:
...was just another lie, wasn't it?
Not even close. :-) But I thank you for admitting to nothing more than a high school education yourself.
Your posts might sound less ignorant? Education is an honorable goal.
I've heard and addressed every trivial, ignorant, and fallacious comment you've proffered. Do please list any that I may have missed.
How typical. You make a deceptive, fallacious claim, then refuse to back it up. ::yawn:: I'm stunned.
Oh, I do. I do indeed. :-)
Regards
“I think the main problem we have is that a lot of the folks voting about homosexuality, voting about gay marriage, don’t know any gay people,” she said. “And I’m certain that if they did, it would change their attitude.” AMEN.
Mike,
I am in my 60's, and have worked with a gay person I respect for about 24 years--we have disciussed the difficulties of not being in a union like a marriage and the restrictions that puts on the relationship. While I very much respect this person and others I know, I cannot change God's word--so I remain committed to defining marriage as one man and one woman. I am not against civil unions--but I would definitley not call them a marriage.
Ladybug, you can have your own opinion about a lot of things, the question is do you think the Law should be based on your religious beliefs? Do you believe that people who don't follow your religion should be legislated into abiding by its tenets? Would you happily submit to Sharia law as you expect non Christians to follow laws based on Christian ideology?
You do realize there are around 8 forms of marriage found in the Bible, correct? The most prevalent being Polygamy .... but let's not forget the pearl of selling your daughter into sexual slavery, too.
My god man ... have you ever even read that little book of yours ... or just blindly follow what your preacher tells you?
" I am not against civil unions--but I would definitley not call them a marriage."
Silly and illogical.
Thankfully Ladybug, marriage was around well before your religion was invented, so changing its boundaries is in no way determined by your god's word.
If the gay marriage debate hasn't driven you from the church yet, just watch the first 1/3 (or more) of Zeitgeist.
I truly do not understand the hang-up about the word marriage from the religious perspective. Can you explain that to me? Because as far as I can see whether you call it marriage or civil union, the nature of that couple's relationship is identical. Does it stop being a sin if you call it something different? Does it affect your own marriage in any way? What is it?
I can at least understand why gay people don't want it called something different as it still carries the stigma of exclusion in their eyes. I'm neutral on that point, but at least they seem to have a valid argument for the word.
Toasty, still spreading lies about God?
Jesus invented the institution of marriage in the Garden of Eden. When He came to us in the form of mankind, He stated this fact and that it is not changeable.
No amount of leftist, Godless attempts to redefine what God created and defined will stand the test before Him.
Ladybug,
The whole problem is that the rules against gays in the Bible are a man's word, not God's word. Can you tell me of a passage in the Bible that actually describes Jesus condemning homosexuality?
The definition of marriage has changed from OT times.
No more polygamy, remember?
Larry, are your bags packed? Since you are going to be leaving when Obama is reelected, this won't be your issue anymore. Since homosexuality is such an abomination to you, perhaps you'll move to a country that treats it that way? May I suggest Uganda? Or Iran?
It is not an embraced "attitude"...that would be of your own choosing. It is a submission of ones own thoughts and will to God and His Holy Word...even without understanding.
Most of the problems around gay marriage arise from the fact that marriage is both a civil and a religous institution, and the civil benefits of marriage are given to those couples who are in a religious marriage. At the same time, it isn't fair to demand that religions change their beliefs regarding marriage so as to accommodate changing views by non-members.
The solution is to separate the two types of marriage. Civil benefits of marriage would be granted to anyone joined in a civil marriage, and to be recognized before the law as married, even religious couples would have to perform a civli marriage. Church members would also be free to perform a religious marriage, with the limitations dictated by their beliefs and no requirement to modify those beliefs or accept things they feel are sinful.
Break the link between religious and civil marriage and the whole problem goes away.
Ladybug, so you are saying that YOUR god is a Bigot and you support him being a Bigot.
Larry Robinson-1323081, you have shown you know absolutely nothing about what the bible says. Jesus wasn't even around, according to the bible, when the garden of eden was around so how could he have created it then? It just shows that many bible thumpers are totally ignorant of what is in the book they are using to justify their bigotry and hate.
For those who are hung up on the words 'marriage' and 'civil unions':
How do you define the act of a couple who go before a civil authority to 'marry'? Is it a civil union regardless of the sexual orientation of that couple, or a civil union only for same sex couples and a marriage for straights?
An attempt was made recently here in Colorado to pass a civil union law. It would have applied equally to both homosexual and heterosexual relationships.
It was defeated because "it would legitimiize the homosexual lifestyle."
I agree with what you are saying Robert. I am a Christian, but I think the worldly view of marriage is different that the Christian view. Should the laws of man be such that anyone can get married? Yes, I believe so. I think Christians need to realize that in order for God to "bless" a marriage, it has to be man and woman. So if a man and woman get married, it's legal in the eyes of God and the eyes of man. If two men or two women get married, it's legal in the eyes of man only. Christ did not teach us to be judgmental. I do not see anything wrong with everyone being able to have the same rights in regards to man's laws.
The Bible states that we are to follow the laws of man as long as it doesn't interfer with the laws of God. In this case, Christians can follow the laws of man and get married and it doesn't interfer with God's laws. If other people get married and live in what we consider a sin, it is their own right and does not interfer in God's laws.
Another issue to consider. Christians are very quick to jump on the laws of marriage because of what the Bible says in regards to homosexuality, but yet still continue to get divorced. Why are these same Christians not jumping on the "no divorce allowed" bandwagon?
Wow, just wow. So having sex with your rib clone is the "true" definition of marriage. lol.
People who take the bible literally should have their head examined. They are obviously sick and/or damaged.
AussieRob
Our country was founded on Christian Biblical values and principles.
If I don't follow the laws of God why should I follow the laws of man?
If it feels good and we like it why shouldn't everything be legal?
Simpest way to fix this:
Define "Marriage" as a religious ceremony, and therefore subject to the laws and practices of the religion, but one that has no legal standing.
Define "civil union' as a legal contract between consenting adults. Period.
If you want to get 'married', then find a church willing to do the deed. Religions are not subject to state or federal law, so if your particular religion doesn't condone same-sex marriage, you are out of luck. Go find one that does or work to change the beliefs and practices of the religion. But reguardless, your 'marriage' has no legal standing in the egovernment, so dont try filing joint tax returns.
If you also want all the rights and privlidges under state and federal law, you will also need to get a 'civil union' certificate from your local government. No ceremony involved, just a contract signed by both parties and witnessed by the clerk. And as a legal contract it must be recognized as such by all.
You can be 'married' or in a 'civil union' or both: Up to you.
Yes, we will still get into the nonsense of religions that do not recognize same-sex marriage wanting to deny benefits to employees in same-sex unions, but 'marriage' and 'civil union' are two different things, so they have no legal standing.
Sandy Missouri
The Bible says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." It also says that, "I and the Father (God) are one" and that was Jesus talking so we can obviously deduce that Jesus was "there" in a manner of speaking.
"Simpest way to fix this:"
You call that "simple"?
We already have civil marriages. They're called "marriage" and Jesus is not required.
Churches/religons can define it any way they want.
"If I don't follow the laws of God why should I follow the laws of man?"
Because "man" will put you in jail. You didn't know that?
"Our country was founded on Christian Biblical values and principles."
Really? Like what for instance? Separation of powers? Bicameral legislature?
Name one. Try to pick one that wasn't used by the Greeks or the Egyptians or somebody before anyone ever heard of the Bible.
And the first heaven is in the throws of death pangs. Gotta maintain the body count in the pews to fill the offering plate, but... OMG whatever shall be their options on Judgment Day? Catering to what itching ears want to hear instead of the word of God. Like a clever politician, Christianity has flopped around to conform to the lattest youth trend for some time now. Two-faced hypocrites, when it suits them they ramble on about not yolking one's self with such sinful riff-raff that will not be forgiven of their blatant sins when they knew better on that fateful day, then turn around and go on at length about how even at death Jesus will forgive them if they acknowledge his name, blah, blah, blah. how quickly everyone forget not that long ago virtually all Christians despised Jews for killing Christ (When according to scripture that's what they were supposed tyo do or Jesus couldn't be Crucified and their lot be saved by his precious blood, yada, yada), but now all good with the Jews and Christians try to cozy up to them. What a crock! WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY??? But most all Christian organization treat it like they don't really believe what they themselves are preachin'. The first heaven condition, encompassing all the primitive religions that subversiverly or outright seek to dis one another will indeed pass away due to such. Being a former 'devout atheist' I must admit I'm gloating over this evolving internal unraveling of Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Religion has no supernatural effect where God is actually concerned whether you go to Church or not. Oh, but don't dare say this to a brainwashed believer. There are huge holes in the theological logic that holds religions together, and how few recognize it? It's a well established fact in the medical community that homosexuality or being gay is not a lust driven choice one can decide to make or not. To put it in a more accurate perspective, it can't even be argued that people are attracted to the opposite sex by choice. They just are from birth, period! In fact believing there is such a choice to be made backfires to make folk wonder if you made the right choice or not. In fact revealing they all have potentially such sinful drives themselves they want to ignore or cover up. "Believers" will certainly feel deeply violated on that day as their little world of faith crumbles around them. What did we really think, "Behold, I come as a thief iwas supposed to mean? C'mon now, let's see that 'Jesus eye roll' (just look at most all the portraits and statues of Jesus for yourself).
klwesley
Actually the country was founded on the Declaration of Independence and more importantly the Constitution.
The Constitution which does not mention God once but implies we all have certain freedoms which I acknowledge allows you to practice your christian region, and others to practice their non-christian regions.
Today our laws are based on civil matters not religious.
Corrections added, sorry folks.
klwesley
Actually the country was founded on the Declaration of Independence and more importantly the Constitution.
The Constitution which does not mention God once but implies we all have certain freedoms which I acknowledge allows you to practice your christian religion, and others to practice their non-christian religions.
Today our laws are based on civil matters not religious.
Ladybug: The Constitution governs us, not the Bible. Our forefathers (who were forced to live in the closet by the way - homosexuality is nothing new) contructed the Constitution to protect people against religion and religious prosectution, among other things.
Roadrunner 2.17 -
I agree 100%. It is very frustrating watching the church focus on one sin and ignore so many others. Scripture is SO clear about there not being a hierarchy of sins. Where is the anger over the divorce rate and adultery? Absolutely nowhere in the Bible are we given the right to condemn anyone else. I do believe homosexuality is a sin, but not worse than adultury, lying, pride, etc. I am so grateful that God maintains sole responsibility for judgement and that Christ gave his life to intervene on our behalf when we are found to be falling short.
Seperating a church defined marriage from the legal definition is a great solution. Let the things of this world stay in this world. You can apply seperately to the state/government to recieve any benefits. Then if you choose, you can get married in a church and say your vows before God.
Even C.S. Lewis, modern era's most famous Christian apologist, makes the argument for civil marriage separate from religious marriage in his work "Mere Christianity". In a secular government, there is no room for religious tenets to be codified-unless they represent all segments of the secular population. I think we would see the streets filled with angry Christians if our government chose to base law on Sharia law...how is this any different? While you are at it, which Christian denomination will we use to base our laws on...Catholocism, Southern Baptist, Pentacostal? Religion has no place in politics. That is why, even though I am not young and I do love Jesus, I have left organized religion because it bears little resemblance to what I believe the Lord calls us to (Is. 1:11-17).
Freedom of religion is our first and most important Civil Liberty; all others flow from it. You can no sooner deny Christians the right to vote their conscience than you can deny said right based on race, or gender.
The three recognized immutable class of people under the U.S. Constitution; in order of importance:
1) Religion
2) Race
3) Gender
Sexual depravity does not even rank an honorable mention. Claiming you are predisposed to rub your reproductive organ against a same-gender companion only serves to prove that you yourself are incapable of providing a coherent defense of your proclivity.
If it is not a self evident truth then it is not a Civil Right.
note: the U.S. Constitution recognizes religion as a self evident truth.
Some of you are soooo wrong. Separate is NOT equal and marriage is NOT religious...
Let's start with the basic civil rights involved here, and by now I'm hoping we all know that we don't vote on civil rights.
Loving v Virginia, which is applicable because the defense used by the state is the same used to justify the anti-equality case, and PSSST IT DIDN'T HOLD WATER...
Lawrence v Texas, which deals with our right to privacy, implied through the 4th and 9th Amendments...
On top of that, one could make a case regarding the 1st Amendment and the 14th Amendment, which could also encompass gender discrimination in contract law.
Question #1-
So, if you can, please give me that LEGITIMATE STATE INTEREST, the court needed in Lawrence, which would enable the government to limit, at least the 14th, 4th and 9th Amendment rights of an entire group of people?
Continuing, the act of marriage essentially falls under contract law, it has never simply been between one man and one woman, and it predates organized religion. It shouldn't be confused with HOLY MATRIMONY, which is the religous sacrement or sanctifying, or spirituality that's been added over the years.
This is why the STATE issues the license, not the church. Why the court oversees divorces, not the church. And, why tons of people are married everyday, without stepping foot in a church. On top of that marriage comes with over 1000 benefits for those who enter into the contract.
That being said...
Question # 2 -
Since the only difference between a gay marriage and a straight marriage, is the gender of a single party, what is inherent to that single party's gender which would lead to bestiality, incest, polygamy, pedophilia, or marrying inanimate objects? Remember, you're ONLY changing ONE person's GENDER, so logically, it must be something within that one person's gender, which would lead you to believe gay marriage would open the door to any of those things, so... WHAT IS IT?
Question #3-
AND, since marriage is a legal contract, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH HOLY MATRIMONY, why then, does that one thing from the paragraph above, NOT ban those parties from ALL contract law?
NONE of the bestiality, pedophilia, incest, polygamy, or inanimate objects arguments WILL EVER WORK, logically or legally, until you can answer those questions.
KWesley,
Hate to break this to some of you, but the 1st Amendment doesn't just guarentee freedom TO relgion. It also guarentees freedom FROM religion.
After all, you can't have complete freedom to practice a religion, unless you are completely free from ALL OTHER religions.
All marriages are civil marriages. All couples have to get an marriage license from the government to be legally binding. A church marriage is not legal unless the couple gets a marriage license from the government. Churches can not be forced to perform same-sex marriage nor do same-sex couples legally need the churches approval to get a marriage license from the government. Marriage equality only includes same-sex couples in government civil marriages. Couples then are free to perform any kind of marriage ceremony like a church wedding, a non-religious wedding, going to vegas, or doing nothing at all. The system we have now does not change at all. The wedding industry just gets bigger.
Krestov...
Sam...
Just because the Constitution or Declaration of Independence doesn't say "God said..." does not mean the principles of the Bible aren't clearly evident or at least foundational.
There are many many Biblical principles in our government; many people would like to change that which I understand and respectfully disagree.
Many of the founding fathers of our country were "religious men" they were preachers and theologians. I'm just sayin.... No disrespect or holy war or even smart-alec comments intended it's just a fact.
Sarah...
I haven't stated that this country was "founded on Christian religion".
Kwesley,
Otherwise known as, CHRISTIAN RELIGION. Unless of course, your Christian religion doesn't follow Christian Biblical values/principals???
That's not a fact. It's your interpretation.
I'm assuming you're talking about things like murder, theft, yada, yada, yada. Here's the point you're missing. Anything that is legal/illegal in our nation is based on compelling state interests. If some of those also, happen to coincide with passages of the Bible, it is merely coincidence. That's why adultery, or shell fish eating, or HOMOSEXUALITY AREN'T illegal, but ARE prohibited in the Bible.
Exactly. The notion that Christians deserve to have some kind of moral authority over the rest of the world is breathtaking in it's hypocrisy.
Hell, even homosexuality isn't prohibited in the bible except in Leviticus, where its a matter of cleanliness only.
Sam
The problem is that 'marriage' is a loaded term. Yes, states have 'marriage' but they are actually talking about a civil contract:: property rights, custody rights, legal obligations, etc. For most religions 'marriage' is a faith-based ceremony and is about continuation of religious practices: Intonations that the couple will be fruitful and multiply and raise their children in the faith. One of the objections to same-sex marriage raised by the Catholic Church is that the purpose of marriage is to provide a stable home for children. Technically, an infertile person could not marry within the Church. The state doesn't give two hoots (or even one hoot) if you intend to raise your children within your faith. The state just cares who gets custody and who pays to support the children if everything falls apart.
@Sarah,
Enough with all the blatant falsehoods and half truths:
Treaty of Paris (1783):
In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch- treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America
George Washinton's Thanksgiving Proclomation:
Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.
Most everyone at that time was outwardly religious because it wouldn't have been acceptable to denounce God - especially in a public position. But, there's a ton of evidence that Jefferson, Madison, Washington, etc. did not want religion in government and often spoke out against its abuses of power. One of my favorites:
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"
klwesley
I agree with you in part however, we should look into the reason religion is not included in the Constitution because the writers did not want the Country's laws to be decided or influenced by religious views.
They recognized even back then there were many "flavors" of Christianity and even people who may not be religious. This was one of the reasons there was a separation of church and state. Meaning a separation of the creation of laws and influence by the church.
I respect religion however, religion must also respect the civil matters of law which are separate from religion.
Randy,
You say a treaty, ratified by congress, isn't a governing document, yet a Thanksgiving Proclamation is? And where in the Treaty of Paris, does it define "divine providence" as Judeo-Christian? Where in the Treaty of Paris or your Thanksgiving Proclamation, does it declare the U.S. a Christian nation, based on Christian beliefs and governed by Christian law?
Direct quotes please.
Randy,
Now that we've gotten your irrelevant, religion that has ZERO GOVERNING/LEGAL POWER out of the way, can you please answer my questions, thereby actually making a legal case for why only certain adults should be allowed to enter into contracts?
Here you go...
So, if you can, please give me that LEGITIMATE STATE INTEREST, the court needed in Lawrence, which would enable the government to limit, at least the 14th, 4th and 9th Amendment rights of an entire group of people?
Since the only difference between a gay marriage and a straight marriage, is the gender of a single party, what is inherent to that single party's gender which would lead to bestiality, incest, polygamy, pedophilia, or marrying inanimate objects? Remember, you're ONLY changing ONE person's GENDER, so logically, it must be something within that one person's gender, which would lead you to believe gay marriage would open the door to any of those things, so... WHAT IS IT?
AND, since marriage is a legal contract, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH HOLY MATRIMONY, why then, does that one thing from the paragraph above, NOT ban those parties from ALL contract law?
Oh, and here's one more...
Seeing as we already have laws banning polygamy, pedophilia, and beastiality, what is inherent in that one party's gender which would lead our legislature to repeal those laws?
The compromise that needs to be struck is grammar. How to differentiate the religious marriage of heterosexuals and a secular (insert word for marriage) of homosexuals. It is unconstitutional to give legal rights to one group of people and not to another minority group of people. Heterosexuals are afraid that giving homosexual unions the title of marriage equates their relationship to their own relationships. It is unfortunate, but hopefully we can find a way around that fear.
Krestov
And so we come to the end of our "debate" :) Here is where we agree to disagree. Actually I do understand and agree with you but there are some things however "ignorant", "small-minded", "archaic" they may seem to others as a Christian I must stand on what the Bible says.
Btw thanks for not calling me any of those afore mentioned titles ;)
MRK,
We've already done that. Holy Matrimony is exclusive to religions, and they may be as bigotted as they want in granting that sacrement. Marriage is solely legal, and has ALWAYS been solely legal...
This is why the STATE issues the license, not the church. Why the court oversees divorces, not the church. And, why tons of people are married everyday, without stepping foot in a church. On top of that marriage comes with over 1000 benefits for those who enter into the contract.
klwesley,
So you are saying that the Christian religion is not based on Christian Biblical values and principals? That's like saying that just because you base something on Sharia law, it's not necessarily Islamic. By it's very definition, a religion is based on the values and prinicipals that make it up. The Founding Fathers, the Framers of the Constitution, specifically created the concept of the seperation of church and state, so that the state (read that as "government" if you missed civics) cannot compel its citizenry to adhere to religious doctrine.
Now, I realize that this may come as a shock, but there are "Christian Biblical values and principals" that can be considered as applicable in a secular society. I'd like to highlight the "no murder" part. It's a widely held belief, regardless of religious affiliation, that depriving a person of their life against their will is a particularly egregious act. That doesn't mean that "anti-murder laws" are based on "Christian Biblical values and principals". Instead, they are based on the prevailing belief that murder is wrong.
And as for Christians who are "voting their conscience" in regards to marriage equality, you are forcefully imposing your religious beliefs on others, in violation of the U.S. Constitution. It's exactly the same as if a state were to enact a law requiring women to wear burkas all the time. Unless you can show a secular reason that homosexual marriage should be outlawed; some sort of explanation as to why it is in America's best interest to rescind the rights of two people to commit to each other in a legally binding way, then you are no better than the Islamic terrorists who try to impose their religious beliefs on everyone else.
And that apparently hasn't changed.
@Sarah,
The Treaty of Tripoli is not a FOUNDING U.S. Document; and Article 11 does not exist - it was subsequently removed. Additionally; the Treaty of Tripoli was rendered inoperable when the Arab nations were found to be in violation of said treaty. Furthermore; Article 11 states that the United States Government was not founded on Christianity; it said nothing about the nation.
Lawrence was concerning the unequal application of the law; in that only same-gender sodomites where being prosecuted for the crime.
Finally: Procreation is the Rational Basis difference between the pairings in question; where as opposite-sex pairings can do so naturally and same-sex pairings cannot.
What is it about self evident truths that cause you to go all mush-brained...?
To the true Christians " those who believe that the Bible is the Word of God and trys to live the way it teaches" you are fighting a loosing battle against the men and women whores who practice this devient act of homosexuality. And as for the children, if they were raised in the faith and belief in Christianity they cannot just block out the truth. They can fall into the gutter of sin and not come out tho. Homosexuals cannot be changed by man, only by God, and when they refuse him then they are lost forever. The thing is even they know that what they do is wrong. The word "gay" was changed from its true meaning to describe their devient life because there is no other word except devient to describe it. The meaning of gay in the dictionary always meant to describe a person who was happy and full of joy. The children will not stray from their Christian teachings if they were taught according to the inerrant word of God. Homosexuality is an abomination to God first and then to nature, there can be no such thing as a true marriage in this evil union.
Sigh... We the people... can't even debate or agree to disagree without insulting, belittling or making light of one another collectively or individually. smh
Secularism is a religion; it is a Godless religion, but it is a religion none-the-less. The United States Government was in no way founded on an ideology that did not even exist until one-hundred-years after its founding. Do you actually believe the self identified Christian fonding fathers based this nation on an ideology that was coined in 1851 by one man who was attempting to articulate a form of governance he had yet to full define?
Marriage corruption supporters cannot find support for their ridiculous assertions any where in recorded human history so they are fully dependent upon the changing of the meaning of words that paint their proclivity in the proper light.
Randy,
A ratified treaty is a governing document whether it's founding or not is moot. None of the SCOTUS case law is a founding document. None of the US Codes is a founding document. But they ARE GOVERNING DOCUMENTS. And can you please provide a source for your claim that article 11 was removed? Also, please answer...
You say a treaty, ratified by congress, isn't a governing document, yet a Thanksgiving Proclamation is? And where in the Treaty of Paris, does it define "divine providence" as Judeo-Christian? Where in the Treaty of Paris or your Thanksgiving Proclamation, does it declare the U.S. a Christian nation, based on Christian beliefs and governed by Christian law?
Yes, and Texas lost because the state didn't have a compelling interest to invade the privacy of citizens, so please, answer the question...
What is the compelling interest the state has to invade the privacy of citizens in regards to contractual law?
So anyone who is infertile, doesn't want children, or is too old to have them shouldn't be allowed to get married?
You also didn't answer question number two...
Since the only difference between a gay marriage and a straight marriage, is the gender of a single party, what is inherent to that single party's gender which would lead to bestiality, incest, polygamy, pedophilia, or marrying inanimate objects? Remember, you're ONLY changing ONE person's GENDER, so logically, it must be something within that one person's gender, which would lead you to believe gay marriage would open the door to any of those things, so... WHAT IS IT?
Or question number three...
Seeing as we already have laws banning polygamy, pedophilia, and beastiality, what is inherent in that one party's gender which would lead our legislature to repeal those laws?
Now here's the easiest one of all...
Can the government make laws based on a religion???
Christians (well, basically the religious in general) really make it hard to be civil sometimes.
It's like your ignorance of history, world-religion, and cultures that predate your own little sects, never even existed.
You are cultural relics ... dinosaurs of a time that has long past you by. You just don't realize your archaic views (whether Biblical, Koranic, or the like) have long gone extinct and replaced by a true morality based on the human condition.
It's no mystery why religious views are rapidly deteriorating all over the world. It's really not that shocking when you see young people abandoning the faiths and dogmas that they were brainwashed into. Church after church ... pew after pew ... It's getting tougher and tougher for ignorance to transcend science and secular reason.
The religions of our parents are dead. It's the youth of this land that will build a secular society based on the human dignity and sovereignty forged through reason, science, and intellectual advancement. The future of a New Enlightenment is quite bright, we just need to get over the hump of this past generation's propensity for the Dark Ages. A future where true spirituality can be explored, minus the dogmas and false-revelations of our ancestors. There will come a time when "faith" is looked upon with the contempt it deserves. The challenge is to keep the numinous, the transcendent, and the spiritual ... but turn away the superstitious and the supernatural.
The real world is so much more beautiful, awe-inspiring and majestic than anything we can read in some book.
Carry on.
I am not interested in what any court of Man says, the judge is not God. Here's the difference between a marriage and a civil union:
Marriage: a union of a man to a woman, blessed by God
Civil union: a union of a person to another person (of whatever gender), recognized by the government (Man), not blessed by God. Not likely to stand the test of time.
There you go.
Wall,
There you go, what??? All you did was post your opinion. Our country isn't run on your opinion (mighty presumptuous by the way). Or your belief. Or your God. Or your religion.
It's governed by OUR LAWS. You got a legal argument (i.e. answers to the questions I've posted numerous times), or just your fallacy of proof by assertion?
Sandy,
Jesus is God appearing to mankind in the form of man. This is a cornerstone of Christianity.
Secondly, it isn't bigotry when God condemns different behaviors as immoral. He is the definer of what is moral, not mankind.
As a Pastor, Theologian, and former Missionary, I think based upon your response, that I can safely say I am more informed on the Bible and theological issues than you are.
Rev Larry Robinson
Sandy,
Thank GOD, we're free from Larry's "God"!
Larry {aka} Jolly Santa
In your opinion. Ask a Muslim, and they have a different opinion. Point being, your religious view has absolutely no baring on my individual rights as a sovereign Human Being.
Um, no.
He is the "definer" of morals in your tiny, Christian wold-view ... but I don't believe in your "morals" or your god. That's why we don't live in a theocracy where Biblical law is National law, get it?
Actually, no.
I'd say it's actually the opposite as you are obviously biased towards your particular dogmatic predisposition.
I've studied both the Bible and the Koran/Qu'ran in a significant manner, and I've moved onto other older, Eastern religions. So I bet I can say "I'm more informed than you are." Hence, I'm unbiased and can speak objectively about your religion with unbiased context.
{aka} Jolly Santa
The "Treaty of Paris" (1783) wasn't even signed, let alone ratified, by the "United States of America" since that country didn't yet exist, while the Treaty of Tripoli was. Ratified treaties become part of our law.
There is no compelling government interest in changing the meaning of the word marriage so as to include a reference to sexual deviants. The Treaty of Tripoli was a document that, at one time, governed comerce between Christendom and the Muslim nations; it was not a document that governed the population of the United States within her boarders.
Doesn't it bother you that you are completely dependent upon half-truths and bald-faced-lies in defense of your proclivity...?
- this whole discussion is a joke and sarah - love ya .. but you give them too much credit - the bible is not the word of god - it was written by the same type of people that are superstitious today and just need or want to believe in something - that does not make it creditable - just whatt their weirdly wired brain tells them what to think - men made up this god not the other way around - let them prove past that point before we even have a normal discussion - you heard of apples and oranges well this is fantasy verus reality - no point
Randy,
Exactly. That's why DOMA is unconstitutional. See, we went out of our way to pass a law to "define marriage" and limit rights in regards to it, which means the burden of proof is on those who support DOMA. You know, YOU. I don't have to come up with a compelling reason to expand rights. YOU HAVE TO COME UP WITH ONE TO LIMIT THEM.
Soo...
Please answer my questions.
You say a treaty, ratified by congress, isn't a governing document, yet a Thanksgiving Proclamation is? And where in the Treaty of Paris, does it define "divine providence" as Judeo-Christian? Where in the Treaty of Paris or your Thanksgiving Proclamation, does it declare the U.S. a Christian nation, based on Christian beliefs and governed by Christian law?
Yes, and Texas lost because the state didn't have a compelling interest to invade the privacy of citizens, so please, answer the question...
What is the compelling interest the state has to invade the privacy of citizens in regards to contractual law?
So anyone who is infertile, doesn't want children, or is too old to have them shouldn't be allowed to get married?
You also didn't answer question number two...
Since the only difference between a gay marriage and a straight marriage, is the gender of a single party, what is inherent to that single party's gender which would lead to bestiality, incest, polygamy, pedophilia, or marrying inanimate objects? Remember, you're ONLY changing ONE person's GENDER, so logically, it must be something within that one person's gender, which would lead you to believe gay marriage would open the door to any of those things, so... WHAT IS IT?
Or question number three...
Seeing as we already have laws banning polygamy, pedophilia, and beastiality, what is inherent in that one party's gender which would lead our legislature to repeal those laws?
Now here's the easiest one of all...
Can the government make laws based on a religion???
You are free from Larry's God.
For now.
But you WILL face Him one day.
Don't be so naive. Christianity has lasted thousands of years and outlived people who had similar thoughts as those expressed here. Each generation had one thing in common; they thought they knew better than God.
As any sane person can see; the Paris Peace Treaty - the treaty that established the United States independence from England - and the George Washington Thanks Giving Proclamation are in complete agreement with one another.
The Paris Peace Treaty is the Founding Document of these United States; the George Washington Thanksgiving Proclamation was offered to establish intent by identifying the commonality of the language used and their respective intent with each acknowledging that their rights and powers were bestowed by "Providence" "The Holy and Undivided Trinity" and "All Mighty God."
The Treaty of Tripoli is not a founding document of these United States. Said treaty governed commerce between nations at one time, but has long since expired. You did not find a loophole and you are not as clever as you think you are.
note: Your "infertility" meme has already been exposed by appealte justices as "Nothing more than a theoretical abnormality that has no effect on the tradition intent for marriage; procreation."
@P.Wawk
Hinduism is thousands of years older than Christianity and still alive and well. Does that make it true?
Yeah ... pretty irrelevant, huh? That's what I was thinking about your comment.
It's actually more like: Each generation had one thing in common; they all thought they believed in the correct God.
The difference, my friend, is that information, science, and technology grows exponentially. It's taken a few thousand years to see secularism break through the prison of religion, but it is happening at an ever-exceeding rate. Look at where we've come in just the last 150 years .... Exponentially speaking, we will have gone this same VAST distance (culturally/socially) in a mere decade or two.
Theistic religion is a dying breed ... it will most likely be gone completely in a generation or two.
"God", and other such philosophical underpinnings will always be prevalent concepts within the human condition (and rightly so.) But the god of the Bible ... the Quran ... he will be layed in the same crypt of mythology as the thousands of gods who came before him.
Again, rightly so.
Have a nice day :)
@Chad,
The Judea/Christian Religion (3000 BCE) is much older than Hinduism (1500-500 BCE.) Christianity is the belief that the prophecy of the Christ foretold in Judaism has been realized. You cannot be a real Christian without having a faith in Judea.
Fun fact:
Every single recognized founding father of these United States was a self identified Christian - ie there where no practicing hindus in the U.S. at that time.
Additionally:
Secularism was coined in 1851 by one man in reference to an as yet defined system of government; a system that has yet to receive a universally accepted definition.
All of my gay and lesbian friends were raised by straight parents. I do not know any gay individuals raised by gay partents.
Sarah,
What is your solution? You do a wonderful job ripping other people's statements, but you offer no alternatives. I'm assuming you are in favor of gay marriage, but it's hard to tell at times. If you are saying that a definition of marriage should be enacted throughout the nation that it is between two consenting adults, I'm all for it. We do vote for civil rights, when they are absent, and I'd be happy to vote for allowing homosexual couples the same rights and privileges as heterosexual couples.
@RandyEK
Wow,
Just wow.
The earliest evidence for prehistoric religion in India date back to the late Neolithic in the early Harappan period (5500–2600 BCE)
Among its direct roots is the historical Vedic religion and, as such, Hinduism is often called the "oldest living religion" or the "oldest living major religion" in the world.
---------------------
Sadly, this is what happens when people get their history from Glenn Beck :(
Yikes ... this really couldn't be more of an uniformed comment if you tried, my friend.
Paine, Locke and Jefferson just threw-up in their graves.
---------------------
So use quotes from the other founding fathers. It's funny how liberals forget to quote the other founding fathers who were active members of their church. Conspiracy for you to believe something else? Absolutely!
Hunter believes this is "a matter of choice, it's a behavior." The ignorance of the far right is beyond belief. This is why young people are moving away from religion. Instead of being inclusive, religion is excluding as many people as possible. I remember as a young girl my father asked our minister what he would do if a black family came to our church. He said he would preach such hell fire and brimstone they would never come back. That's the point I realized that organized religion has no place in my life. I believe in God - just not in church. The ignorance and hatred is stifling.
@Unhappy
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
- Thomas Paine
Is it not a species of blasphemy to call the New Testament revealed religion, when we see in it such contradictions and absurdities.
- Thomas Paine
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
- Thomas Paine
Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.
- Thomas Paine
-------------------
This is a mere fraction of quotes I could pull.
ALL the founders commented about religion quite often.
Some were Christian,
Most were Deists ....
But almost ALL were governed and influenced by The Principles of The Enlightenment (not the Bible).
They were wise men, men who loved and respected science and intellect. In other words, men who would absolutely despise Glenn Beck and the current Conservative movement.
Fundamentalist Christians who want to have sexual relations as the sole issue concerning marriage should consider some truths about sex and marriage.
If certain (legal) sexual behavior does not meet your approval, don't do those things. But bear in mind that large portions of the Bible were written with the express purpose of controlling the behavior of others. If you wish to be controlled by your church and the Bible that is your choice, but quit trying to make my choices for me.
The Paris Treaty is not the "founding document" of the US. That would be the Constitution (we were a confederation of independent states before then) or it could be argued that it was the Declaration of Independence. The nation did not come into being merely because it was recognized by foreign powers. The Treaty of Tripoli, on the other hand, was properly ratified under the provisions of the Constitution.
@chad-1841583
In face of all evidence to the contrary your instance on holding to your falsehoods and baldfaced lies in defense of your depravity only proves that you are on a disinformation campaign designed to lend an appearance of acceptability to that which you yourself know to be wholly unacceptable.
You stated that:
To which I countered with:
And you attempted to rebuff my response by referencing a non-Hindu religion; seriously...?
"I am a real Christian; that is to say a deciple of the docrines of Jesus Christ; I have little doubt that soon our entire nation will be rallied to the unity of our Creator" Thomas Jefferson
"It is in the religion of ignorance where tyranny begins" Benjamin Franklin
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams
"Procreation is a rational basis to limit marriage to one man one woman pairings" SCOTUS
I love what ladybug 46 said. I can't change God's word. That's a classic. Yes because God wrote the bible right? You are just like every other Christian. You pick and choose the scriptures you want to follow and ignore the one you don't. I have one for you,
1 Timothy 2:11-15
New International Version (NIV)
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Sorry ladybug. I can't change gods word. Maybe you could read all of leviticus instead of cherry picking. Be sure to stone your children if they curse you.
Matthew 15:3-4
New International Version (NIV)
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a]and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[
I don't believe in God anymore now that I have grown up (no I'm not being a smart ass). But Imagine if there was a God that for a time marveled at his creation until human kind began to tear itself apart over which version of God was right and who the truly chosen people were. So sad.
Love and Let Live
Randy
That statement has no bearing on the argument to deny marriage rights to same sex couples any more than you should use that statement to deny marriage rights to people who are past the age of conception or people who choose not to have children.
If the small-minded, intolerant "christians" do not want gays to marry in their church, gays can find a church that will or have a civil union. Who would want to belong to a church that promotes this type of hateful attitude anyhow? How simple would it be for the government to say that civil unions regardless of sex are legal. As long as they are consenting adults, who marries whom is nobody's business but their own. Really, whether my married neighbors are gay or straight, does not affect me in any way shape or form. If at some point your children ask questions, just tell them that they are two people who love each other. Sounds perfectly simple to me.
Wow,
You do realize you just quoted a well known "composite" of Jefferson's words, right? I sure hope you didn't knowingly do this my friend.
So to bolster your argument that the founders were Christian ... you use Jefferson?
The one founder who actually created his own Bible and cut out all of Jesus' miracles and revelations?
Regarding my Hindu references ... I'm not really sure what you're confused about. I can only guess that your critical reading skills are as bad as your history.
You, my friend, are a pretty despicable liar (and you're not even good at it) ... I've grown bored with you.
Ok, Randy. Let's see some more:
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes in nothing, the he who believes what is wrong." - Jefferson, Notes on Virginia
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear"
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent"
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State"
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills"
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Shall I continue? Ok then:
As the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence, Jefferson articulated a statement about human rights that most Americans regard as nearly sacred. Together with James Madison, Jefferson carried on a long and successful campaign against state financial support of churches in Virginia. It is Jefferson who created the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" in his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut. During his 1800 campaign for the presidency, Jefferson had to contend with critics who argued that he was unfit to hold office because he did not have orthodox religious beliefs.
I realize the last one is from Wikipedia, and that will taint its authority, but I think I've proven my point. You are free to worship your God Randy, but our government was not founded on your God, as you see him. It was founded on the power of civil authority. To argue otherwise is woefully ignorant.
MRK,
The solution is simple. Repeal DOMA, and follow the guidelines of contract law, as we do with ALL OTHER CONTRACTUAL ISSUES.
ModernPuritan,
I'm shaking in my boots.
Randy,
You do realize that quote from the Treaty of Paris is describing the English delegates, right?
Thank you!
Ain't religion grand? All it brings to the world is hatred, intolerance, war, misery and suffering.
Dang, and here I thought it was human beings that did that.
mrk
Actually, it was human beings AND religion ...... human beings using religion to control other human beings. And just imagine - people have actually volunteered to be controlled! All they have had to do is set aside their rational minds.
Duh...wow you really have a bug up ur *$$ about religion. Certain vile human beings will find any way to hate, be intolerant, start wars and create misery & suffering. Just so happens that religion has been the recent convenient method. Political affiliation or declaring onesself conserv./liberal will be the next mode of destruction!
I do not have any problem with religion in general. What I do have a problem with is religion that insists on belief in the impossible and religion that uses ancient writings to justify their presumed right to control other people's behavior.
I'm just going to say that prejudice is something that you learn, not something that you are born with.
Religious conservatives are all for limited government except when they want the government to prevent two people who love eachother, from getting married. Or they want the government to interfere with a womans right to choose. "OUR bible says this is the way it should be...so you have to live according to what OUR bible says".
But the certerpiece of their beliefs is that there can be no such thing as love in those circumstances. Funny how when it suits them they seek to make relationships look like they're all based on lust or sex alone and nothing else just to try and establish their argument. Sex is simply no big deal, but OMG don't dare try to tell a devout Christian that.
This is NOT a political emphasis - it is 100% a MORAL emphasis. This is NOT about religion - it is about what our GOD says is right vs. wrong. If you don't want to be a Christian, that is fine - do not be a Christian - but do NOT call yourself a Christian - you are something else and it's up to you to determine what to call your faith. Christians follow what the Bible teaches - they follow what is in the New Testament and the fact is that the only two commands given by New Testament leaders were to abstain from drinking blood and refrain from sexual immorality - that is what replaced Old Testament theology. Those are the only two actual commands given by the church leaders when the Christian faith was established. Yes, I love gay people, I love people who do drugs, I love people who smoke, I even love people who hurt other people. But I live my life according to New Testament theology and nobody, but nobody can tell me that God approves of a man being married to another man (or woman, or whatever). And I don't believe that letting this kind of theology creep into the church would be pleasing to God. If we can't even get those TWO things right, then Lord save us all because there is no hope left.
This is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever read in my life.
Let's be painfully honest here M.
Christians cherry pick their beliefs everyday. Yes, homosexuality is condemned in the bible, so is divorce. How many Christians are divorced?
I'm still waiting for a logic-based argument as to how same-sex marriage is immoral. People tend to stop replying after I ask that...
A lot more are divorced than are gay. This is why they ignore the part thats about divorce, it might actually affect their lives. Much easier to decry the "sin" that does not effect you.
"the only two commands given by New Testament leaders were to abstain from drinking blood and refrain from sexual immorality"
I can't even believe that you can say that with a straight face. God "wrote" the old testament, but then needed a do-over, so he wrote the new testament to guide humanity going forward, and "drinking blood" and sexual morality were the only two things he was worried about?
Drinking blood? Is that worse than "coveting your neighbor's ox"?
I love idiots who believe in magic.
I asked this before an I'll ask it here again because I am really fascinated by this new phenomenon (at least to me) that I've noticed lately: why do christians want to distance themselves from the old testament?
Does that mean that the 10 commandments are out? Does it mean that Genesis is BS - no talking snake, no 6000 year old earth? The flood and Noah never happened? Abraham, and therefore 12 tribes of Israel, are out? Is it that you can't make your 21st century life mesh with all the rules in Leviticus?
Is there still a holy trinity? Are god, jesus, and the holy spirit still one and the same? Cause if they are you would expect consistency from a diety about what he said before and after he sent himself (in the form of his son) to earth.
I really, really want to know where this denial of the old testament is coming from.
And it's good to know that you have been given the authority to determine who is or is not a Christian. Must be an awesome responsibility!
The next time I need a determination made I'll be sure to get in touch with you for a final ruling.
OMG! Does this mean that I CAN "covet my neighbor's ox"?!?!
E does not equal MC squared. Most of science is a fairy tale.
Toasty
I would venture to say that any answer a "religious" or Christian person gives you would be shot down because you don't seem to view the Bible as "logical".
Um, yes it does. That is why a nuclear bomb makes such a large explosion. A very small portion of the mass is converted into energy exactly according to that formula.
Science has areas that are soft, but is always empirically or mathamatically supported. Your little book, not so much.
JM 6.7 -
Before Christ came, the law of the Old Testament was part of God's covenant with His people. That law was a away for people to show their devotion to Him and to show they were different than the rest of the world - they were God's people. When Christ came, He changed the world. He presented Himself as a new covenant. No longer did people HAVE to abide by the old law. Christ's teachings changed the church forever and made a personal relationship with Christ possible. What a beautiful thing.
While the old law is no longer necessary to achieve salvation, it is important for Christians to remember and understand the history of God's people. Under the law, Gentiles (non-Jews) were not allowed. How much more grateful does that make me, knowing that I can now be co-heir to the kingdom of heaven alongside Christ? Salvation is now determined by the choice to embrace Christ as your Lord and Savior or to deny Him.
The Old and New Testaments are both important but I think what's throwing most Christians these days is not understanding the different vein of significance each one has. I hope this sort of answered your question.
Another perfect example of theological brainwashing. "It's NOT about a religion" Uh, the Bible is only associated with religion and no other spehere of influence. "our Bible"-?, now this is rich. Just which Christian group, of which so many disagree on such matters, are you claiming to be "our[s]"??? Morals are in the eye of the beholder alone. And this is what makes a good preacher. The ability to go on at length with plausible sounding arguments, right up till someone actually tries to think it through.
Well it is one sexy ox. I say covet away!
"How much more grateful does that make me, knowing that I can now be co-heir to the kingdom of heaven alongside Christ? Salvation is now determined by the choice to embrace Christ as your Lord and Savior or to deny Him."
Yep, you're co-heir to a kingdom full of other Christians, almost none of which agree on what that consists of. None of you actually think about what the results of your faith mean in practice. In 1953 the World Council of Christian Churches gathered for a convention in Chicago to finally begin working together to bring about Christ's kingdom of heaven on earth. Barely 5 days into deliberations the entire conference ended early and everyone went home due to heated theological arguments that embarrased many groups present. The bottom line is they were all concerned about who was going to be large and in charge and all that Christian brotherly love and respect suddenly flew out the window.
The word is only a word, not action in the real world. The second heaven condition is deviod of such preachin' All Christianity does is preach, preach, preach. It's all about the word, the word, the word, and little else except a bake sale on Sunday. I sound harsh, but the fact is the little good the Church does is outwieghed by deeper problems that are not workable in the long run.
@jm I'll try to answer you-briefly, I hope. Many Christians want to ignore the Old Testament and just the New Testament "counts", but that is an inaccurate viewpoint. First, there is a scripture that states all the Scripture is truth and useful for teaching. Since there are some pretty problematic themes in the OT and they do not seem to understand the way ancient peoples used hyperbole to make sure their Truths were passed down, they try to distance themselves from the OT. The way I see it, the Israelites had a very gifted way of getting their point across, but they got it wrong too and therefore Jesus had to show up to teach people the right way to treat each other and what true religion is (showing God you love Him by loving His creation-your fellow humans). Someone explained it to me by equating us to fish in a tank and God to the human who takes care of the tank...not exactly a good comparison but maybe not so far off after all.
M-Numbers,
Neener, neener, neener, your God doesn't mean jack all in our laws.
Did you know that Muslim also believe in Old Testament and the same God as you do?
If you actually spend times to learn more about Muslim, you will know they don't believe Jesus is a son of God. They think Jesus is just another prophet and that pretty much throw out the New Testament.
If you actually use Old Testament into your argument, you are basically more similar to Muslim than you think.
The behind is made for one way action to eliminate human waste. Currently, there is an epidemic of human waste related diseases among gays including gay bowel disease in which human waste is compacted in the body because of gay activity. There are other diseases associated with this practice, all including bacteria and disease from contact with human waste.
One in five gay men currently has aids according to WebMD.
Anyone thinking that is natural and moral is nuts.
No humans are "born that way" into
Uh Timothy, Aids doesn't come from gay butt sex. Also, plenty of heteros have anal sex.
K.Stu/Sonbeam,
While I'm not on board with your explanations since a deity in human form (Jesus) decries the his own dicta (the word of god to his people). I have a little bit (a lot) of trouble believing that an all-knowing, all-present god would be so inconsistent.
Having said that, I do appreciate you taking your time to shed some light on your point of view. Thank you.
And many gays do not. So, I'm not sure what point Timothy is trying to make.
@Sarah, my God means more to your life than you understand, and to everyone who thinks that Christians only cherry picks, let me explain and try to kill some of the hypocrisy, I hate that the view of Christians is so distorted only b/c we as Christians do a very bad job of leading by example, in the context of Chrisitans divorcing, my sister who is Chrisitian is with a pretty horrible husband and a dead beat dad, and it kind of hurts me that I cant advise her to get a divorce b/c its my family, but b/c we have the promise of God meaning he knows our troubles and have promised that if we continue in our faith and abide by his commands he will prove faithful, and so yea Christians are humans, and yes we do sin, the difference is at least for me, I dont hate your sin anymore than i hate my sin, whether it be saying a curse word or anything else I hate it all the same and i would hate for my sister to get a divorce b/c its just not God honoring, one thing that is certain, whether you choose to believe it or not is that you will stand judged, after this life on earth, and while you value your cival libertys on earth, that will be the only thing you will be able to enjoy, b/c unless you repent and accept Christ you will perish(go to hell), and i kjnow alot of ppl are going to be very sarcastic b/c its not something you believe in anyways, and thats ok, just know i dont judge people or their sin, but i hate their sin, not the person, and im not here to change the world or anyones beliefs but share truth and show them through my actions a Christ who used me a sinner of the worst kind, but he granted me mercy and grace thankfully before i almost lost my life twice in two car accidents where my vehicle flipped multiple times and all i got was one broken arm from one accident and nothing out of the other. Thank God I decided to give him my life before the next time, for he may not have been so generous. May you all be blessed and i pray that the spirit of God be felt by all of you, and that you accept it over the spirit of america which will lead you to a certain death. Be blessed
McKenna,
You just wasted your time. Keep your religion to yourself and out of my life and our laws. If you do that, I won't have any problems with it or you. When you cram it down my throat, it is inevitable that I will vomit it back up all over you.
This is just so unbelievable. We all get one turn on this planet and you would rather see your sister suffer throughout that turn, than to move on and have a shot at happiness. If that's what your God has intended with his supposed "love" than that's just sad.
@Mckenna ... until either 1) the right-wing stops quoting Leviticus in its attacks on gays or 2) the right-wing obeys all the other admonitions also in Leviticus, a great many of us will still consider Christians to be hypocrites. Nothing in your posting has convinced me otherwise. In fact, Christianity must be a pretty hateful religion to condemn your sister and her children to such a home life.
God's word!!! How do you know it's god's word? Because a man told you???
Yes, exactly. The same 40 men spread over 1,500 years on four continents in three different languages who were all told part of a story that fits perfectly together although only four the men knew each other.... and they wrote what was told to them by God, as the Bible clearly describes.
Timothy, the writers of the bible weren't told what to write by God. Believe in God all you want but do not lie to give more creedence to your beliefs.
The Bible fits together perfectly? Not even the four main gospels of the new testament are in agreement.
@barry, let me give you a scenario, as they didnt sit on each others laps, if we are on an intersection four of us and we see an accident, how many viewpoints do you think we will have. just the one i saw, that doesnt mean yours isnt true, we saw the same thing and what we both say is true but we had different angles, and yes the bible fits perfectly together, do you believe in julious caesar, if so you would be surprised to know that the bible historically and Jesus' accounts are are historically more accurate than what you were taught and believe in most of your history classes, ill bet you didnt know that the accounts of caesar were recorded some hundred years after he died and jesus' life was recorded within 50 years of his death therefore making the possibility of his accounts very true b/c the people who recorded them were still possibly alive. i only say possibly for you, i know the truth but thats just something for you to think about historically its more accurate.
Good, it is time for the church to die. It's beneficial effects on society has been greatly overshadowed by it's negative results and just breeds hatred, ignorance, and violence. If God actually exists, then he needs to provide some other form of proof than an ancient book that man has perverted to serve it's own vanity, greed, and lust for power.
The church will never die. Whole armies have been crushed throughout history trying to "kill" the Bible and Christianity, and yet it is still the number one religion in the world.
You will die, and the enemies of the Bible will die, still wishing the Bible would die. Ain't gonna happen.
Yes, and whole Christian armies have died and killed trying to rid the world of the Muslim religion, yet they still survive just as strong. Christianity is not the number one religion in the world, in fact only about 1/3 of the world believes in Christianity. The majority of the world does not.
Keeping being ignorant sheep and trusting that your fellow man has your best interest at heart when he is reading from the ancient book. I mean look at the Vatican, they surely have no lust for power and care about everyone so deeply.
DarkShadows,
As much as I hate to admit it, Timothy1mil is right on this one.
Cosidering that Thomas Paine wrote "The Age of Reason" over 200 years ago, here we are arguing the very same things. Back then the British government would prosecute anyone who printed a copy of the book for fear that it would encourage or engender revolutionary ideas. Now ignorance is fostered by the self-censorship of the true believer. I'm afraid that part of human nature will never go away.
This country hates muslims because of what they stand for but they too says gays are wrong so don't think that our religion Christainty is at its end, it is OUR RELIGION SAYS ITS WRONG ALSO, so believe what you want and move on to the end of time and then we will see whos right or wrong. baptist or methodist etc does it matter?
annefl, no one knows what awaits after death until they die. For anyone to state that they do know is a lie.
It's time for the lunatic religions to die already. They have outlived their usefulness. Let us have an age of rationality and reason for once. Ancient fairy tales have no relevance to matters of public policy.
Below is a list of the 8 books everyone should read according to Neil Degrass Tyson. I love his reasons for why these books should be part of every thinking man's library. To those who would seek to enlighten themselves, they will be happy to know that these books are available for free on Amazon (the e-book version that is). Here's the list:
1.) The Bible (eBook) - “to learn that it’s easier to be told by others what to think and believe than it is to think for yourself.”
2.) The System of the World by Isaac Newton (eBook) – “to learn that the universe is a knowable place.”
3.) On the Origin of Species by Charles Darwin (eBook – Audio Book) - “to learn of our kinship with all other life on Earth.”
4.) Gulliver’s Travels by Jonathan Swift (eBook – Audio Book) – “to learn, among other satirical lessons, that most of the time humans are Yahoos.”
5.) The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (eBook – Audio Book) – “to learn how the power of rational thought is the primary source of freedom in the world.”
6.) The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith (eBook – Audio Book) - “to learn that capitalism is an economy of greed, a force of nature unto itself.”
7.) The Art of War by Sun Tsu (eBook – Audio Book) - “to learn that the act of killing fellow humans can be raised to an art.”
8.) The Prince by Machiavelli (eBook – Audio Book) - “to learn that people not in power will do all they can to acquire it, and people in power will do all they can to keep it.”
Ultimately sexuality will not be what defines you but how you treat others. Gay or straight or other if you beat or bully you are on the downside of life. Organizations divide and conquer to justify their existence. What would happen if we didn't divide and conquer? The ever elusive Peace perhaps? All for one and one for all. Never happen though as their are those amongst us who thrive on beating and bullying. The human dynamic as complex as ever. And so we carry on as best we can and hope that the beaters and bulliers do not carry the day.
I used to be a "young Christian", till I I got older and realized how silly it is.
Don't forget Hypocritical! :-) Have a good day!
"I used to be a 'young Christian', 'till I got older and realized how silly it is."
-all I have to say about that is '..no argument here.'
Sam, if it was that easy for you to do, then you NEVER had a relationship with God. Your loss.
Sweet-
Typical oversimplified judgment call and a jump to extreme conclusions accordingly. If it was that easy? Who told you he said that? It just sounded too easy to you. You know for sure what his relationship with God was, eh? Your loss...
Children of most Christian Families are indoctrinated to believe in a God and whatever goes with it. If you at any point start to disbelieve, you are threatened with hell and a lake of fire. So by the time you get to an age where you can question if it is "your" real faith versus what your parents and society believe, it becomes more difficult as you start to feel like an outcast if you reject religion. If children were not indoctrinated and threatened at a young age, Christianity would have few converts.
"Children of most Christian Families are indoctrinated to believe in a God and whatever goes with it. If you at any point start to disbelieve, you are threatened with hell and a lake of fire. So by the time you get to an age where you can question if it is "your" real faith versus what your parents and society believe, it becomes more difficult as you start to feel like an outcast if you reject religion. If children were not indoctrinated and threatened at a young age, Christianity would have few converts."
Yeah, sure. Tell that to the christians in China.
@moderndaypuritan - 25 Million churchgoers do not translate to 25 million Christians.
leave the church and tax the church . the church HATES people who think freely and they will kill to get what they want if you don't think so look at history the earth is flat no the sun goes around the earth no do you go to a doctor well you would think the church would want every one to go to a doctor because life is so important and is the church for free health care for all no or free food for all no they want your money god does not need money and god would not ask for money?
The very last thing I want, as a gay man, is a bunch of Christians trying to take over gay culture. Everything Christians touch turns into a fight, a dissension, a break. etc. I could care less what Christians think of me or any other gay person on the planet. Just stay in your churches and leave the gay world alone, Christians. We DO NOT need your approval nor are we dismayed by your hate. Just butt out.
To me, it is more than issues involving LGBTQ that are driving people from the church. To many self-styled Christians have become so full of themselves that they actually have enough hubris to claim that they know the mind of God and are able to speak for God. These kinds of Christians believe themselves to be infallible. They do not drive me from Chrsitianity but do drive me further and further from organized churchs.
" that they actually have enough hubris to claim that they know the mind of God and are able to speak for God."
There is no evidence that ANYONE ever "spoke to God".
All the "authors" of the Bible said they spoke with God. Pat Robertons says he spoke with God. It's all the same to me. When are they going to add the "Book of Pat"?
Now if they would only stop speaking for God...
Sam-
I agree. It sounds like these "self-styled Christians" that claim to "know the mind of God and able to speak for God" are probably very similar to the people who wrote the book in the first place. However, back in those days it was much easier to convince people to follow, as little was known about the world we live on (it was still believed to be flat). In modern society when people claim to speak to God or try to create a new religion, logically thinking people can conclude that they are either mentally unstable or seeking a position of power over weak minded individuals.
1. I was wrong, there are not 2 things to abstain from, there are 3 - these 3 things were put into place by the founding fathers of the New Testament Christian church:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (I suggest doing an in-depth study back to the Greek on the definition of "fornication").
2. The entire Old Testament points to the New Testament. The Old Testament point to Jesus Christ and was to teach mankind that no matter what you do, you will sin and you need a savior. You were born with the sin nature because of what happened in the Garden of Eden and you can't escape it. You must atone for that sin in some way, shape, or form eventually. Lots of the Old Testament laws were either for a specific period of time (something meant something in that day/time, but doesn't mean the same thing today), or for a specific people (the Jewish people who were supposed to be the light of the world to all other peoples who dwelt on the earth), or lastly, as a ceremonial gesture (as time went on God Himself said he was sick of these ceremonies because they had become just another ritual and not a heart-felt time of praise to their creator).
3. I'm not speaking for God - I'm only telling you what He has already said.
4. Yes, divorce is hated by God. And yes, I am divorced (I didn't have to tell you that, I'm making a point). My spouse cheated on me. He left me. There is nothing I can do about it. However that was 10 years ago and I have never dated once because for a woman, a husband is a husband until he dies and I'm not free until that time. This is how I interpret New Testament scripture, however, many interpret it another way. I can only go by my conscience in gray areas. God expects us to follow our consciences.
5. Which leads me right into the final comment I'm gonna make: your conscience is your guide if you are a Christian. If your conscience is telling you something, it's up to you, and you alone, to continue doing what you are doing or change your life. It doesn't matter what others say or what society says. I won't let society tell me that the gay lifestyle is acceptable because my conscience tells me otherwise. I accept that you think differently, yet your influence can hurt me, my family, or my friends.
In the end, you will pay for what you do and I will pay for what I do. In the meantime, we should all strive to get along. An extensive Bible study of the ENTIRE Bible would be recommended. Prayers go out to everybody in the world.....
M-6"""""""" Have you done an in depth study of the Bible, and would you tell me which form of Greek you used? I wonder too if you studied any of the pre Christian writers and who they might have been. Excited to hear back from you et220
The greek word is "pornea".
Homosexuality was not considered "pornea" in the original greek/hebrew. In addition, the roots of "fornication" from the same source:
I have already decide no matter who makes it into the sin of house we call THE WHITE HOUSE, I will leave society and go my way quietly until I l die, So sick and tired of all this being shoved down all of our throats. Its doesn't really matter what any of you say in print odds you don't believe one way or the other. What is popluar at the time ........
That's fine, society really doesn't need people with Bronze-Age beliefs anyway.
Good. One less ignorant Bible thumper.
Far more non-Christians die every second than "Bible-thumpers." Better pray you're not one of the next ones to go. At least they will enjoy where they are going.
Timothy, I am sure God approves of you threatening people and being nasty to others. Do you get gold stars for that?
Cya! Don't let the door hit your @$$ on the way out.
Can you prove to me that Jesus said these things? No! The bible was written by the catholic church and you only get to read what they wanted the masses to know. They threw out books that they disagreed with. The bible is not the final word and until someone can prove it is there will be questions and doubt. Evangelicals are ignorant bigots who hate the LGBT community. Until they can overcome their ignorance the exodus will continue.
The fact is that belief in Jesus as the Christ and as God in the flesh as He declared is based not on circular logic but examination of the evidence, experience, and faith.
Blind faith is faith without evidence, which would be superstition. The Bible does not call us to blind faith. The Bible calls us to faith in evidence. We submit that various truth claims, including Christianity, should be evaluated on the evidence.
On the other hand, because the atheist must attempt to prove a negative, circular reasoning is the only avenue available.
Some of the Greatest legal minds have examined the evidence for Jesus as having resurrected as He promised (therefore validating His claims).
Dr. Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, "A Treatise on the Law of Evidence", considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf was an atheist who believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection -- Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, "An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice." In which he emphatically stated:
"it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ."
Greenleaf concluded that according to the jurisdiction of legal evidence the resurrection of Jesus Christ was the best supported event in all of history! And not only that, Dr. Greenleaf was so convinced by the overwhelming evidence, he committed his life to Jesus Christ!
Professor Thomas Arnold, former chair of history at Oxford, and author of the famous volumes, History of Rome, was skillfully educated in the study of historical facts. Professor Arnold, stated, "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is PROVED BY BETTER AND FULLER EVIDENCE of every sort, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."
After investigating the evidence of the resurrection, Lord Darling, former Chief Justice of England, stated, ". . . there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true."
Hugo Grotius, the father of International Law and the author of "The Truth of the Christian Religion".."Arguing against the theory that utility makes right, Grotius says that men may not simply seek their own advantage because we are social creatures and need one another. He then shows that we are also bound to limit our behavior because of God:
"Since we are assured [of the existence of God] partly by our reason and partly by constant tradition, confirmed by many arguments and by miracles attested by all ages, it follows that God, as our creator to whom we owe our being and all that we have, is to be obeyed by us without exception, especially since He has in many ways shown himself to be supremely good and supremely powerful. Wherefore, he is able to bestow upon those who obey Him the highest rewards, even eternal rewards, since He himself is eternal; and He must be believed to be willing to do this, particularly if He has promised to do so in plain words; and this is what Christians believe, convinced by the indubitable faith of testimonies."
John Warwick Montgomery (Ph.D., Chicago; D.Théol., Strasbourg; LL.D., Cardiff; Dr. [h.c.], Institute for Religion and Law, Moscow) is Emeritus Professor of Law and Humanities, University of Luton, England, and Director, International Academy of Apologetics, Evangelism & Human Rights, Strasbourg, France. His legal specialty is the international and comparative law of human rights and he regularly pleads religious freedom cases before the European Court of Human Rights. He is a U.S. and U.K. citizen, the author of some fifty books in five languages ( www.ciltpp.com ), and is included in Who's Who in America, Who's Who in France, the European Biographical Directory, Who's Who in the World, and Contemporary Authors.
Dr. Montgomery is the author of more than forty books in five languages. He holds ten earned degrees, Including a Master of Philosophy in Law from the University of Essex, England, a Ph.D. from the University of Chicago, a Doctorate of the University in Protestant Theology from the University of Strasbourg, France, and the higher doctorate (LL.D.) from Cardiff University, Wales.
John Warwick Montgomery once told Contemporary Authors: "My world-view was hammered out at university; there I became a Christian. . . . Like the late C. S. Lewis (one of my greatest heroes), I was literally dragged kicking and screaming into the Kingdom by the weight of evidence for Christian truth."
Montgomery asks people to consider several things: the "ancient documents" rule (that ancient documents constitute competent evidence if there is no evidence of tampering and they have been accurately transmitted); the "parol evidence" rule (Scripture must interpret itself without foreign intervention); the "hearsay rule" (the demand for primary-source evidence); and the "cross-examination" principle (the inability of the enemies of Christianity to disprove its central claim that Christ resurrected bodily from the dead in spite of the motive and opportunity to do so). All these, writes Montgomery, coalesce directly or indirectly to support the preponderance of evidence for Christianity, while the burden of proof proper (the legal burden) for disproving it rests with the critic, who, in 2,000 years, has yet to prove his case.13 We must, then, emphasize that to reject the New Testament accounts as true history is, by definition, to reject the canons of legitimate historical study. If this cannot be done, the New Testament must be retained as careful historical reporting.
Please provide ANY evidence. All you provided was a bunch of smart people who say they believe in christianity but also who provide no evidence.
If you want a pissing contest of smart people's beliefs just notice how many of the Nobel laureates are non-religious, and the substantial rate of atheism in the sciences.
Wow PR, the irony of you railroading an entire group of people into a negative stereotype is especially striking (in this thread) given the common accusation leveled at evangelicals regarding homosexuals.
Well I am a young evangelical Christian. I hate nobody. I have gay friends, and I think they are awesome. Do I believe they have the unalienable right to "get married?" I don't believe that it is even possible. Marriage, in its essence, is between a man and a woman. Call gay marriage "marriage" if you want, but I rely on the divine interpretation for its definition. Similarly, My marriage to my wife is one characterized by a covenant with God and my wife. No legal document granted by the government defines my marriage. It just gives me certain worldly benefits and rights. I don't care if homosexuals are given the same rights-sure, why not?. In my book, that doesn't make them married.
Your assertion that nobody will ever be able to prove it is correct. However, the opposite is true as well. Nobody will ever be able to prove otherwise. Good luck with that.
Agreed. Just like nobody will ever be able to prove a gigantic invisible meatball gave rise to us all. Regardless of logic and probability, the existence of the spaghetti monster cannot be disproven!
Let me guess ..a "CUT and PASTE-ATHON" .. gee Larry ..don't you have any ORIGINAL thoughts?
Haha agreed. I cannot argue with that. Where I differ is the idea that having no faith in a divine being of some kind (not even necessarily the Christian God), is somehow incredibly logical and rational. With how little we really know about our universe, at least in this age of humanity's story, I still feel like a creator is the more rational belief between the two. Life forms as complex as man, with brains, nerve endings, creativity and emotions, just doesn't scream out to me that we were all formed from single cell organisms around big bang times. Note: I'm not saying that is the common argument, just using that for illustrative purposes. To me, it seems much more likely that something as complicated as life was no accident. I don't see the illogical side of that at all. Just my $.02.
Fair enough Alex. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of "god/creator", but neither would I be surprised if there is not. Most of us atheists are this way.
What we do believe is that none of the gods worshiped today are very probable due to the condition of our world and the inconsistencies in the religions that follow them. Simple logic precludes the existence of an all-just, omnipotent and omniscient being. A god could be any two of those things, but not all three, which is what christianity claims.
Oh, and the big bang and the origins of life on this planet are seperated by 10+ trillion years.
Interesting, EngEsq. I have never heard that argument (2 of 3, but not 3) before. What do you mean by that?
Haha that Big Bang illustration wasn't meant to provide a scientific argument, just a representation of the theory that we have all evolved from nothingness by happenstance.
EngEsq - Wouldnt that make you agnostic then? At least you are open to the possibility. :)
I don't see how the Church even matters.
Marriage is not a religious institution, it's a civil one. Hence the tax breaks.
If you want to call Marriage a religious institution then remove all federal consideration for the act and give me my money for my marriage license back.
Unfortunately far too many pastors no longer teach the Word of God, desiring to be popular and acceptable to the world. Thus, young people have no teaching on what God directs them to do. So they don't understand why accommodating the lies of this world harm their souls.
Jesus declared concerning believers and this world
God calls Christians to be separate from the world and not to live like the world.
Jesus asked a critical question which I pose to believers weekly:
Larry, the world is real. Your god is an ancient myth. Believing that myths are factual is illogical and insane.
And this has value?? (roll eyes)
Move to South Carolina and build a wall to keep the rest of us out. Please.
"Move to South Carolina and build a wall to keep the rest of us out. Please."
Fill it up with water too!
Young Christians have access to computers and the like. As such, through sites like YouTube they can access lectures given by other religions, Atheists, Economists, Historians, Anthropologists, Jurists, Sociologists, etc. They can listen to Stephen Hawking's evaluation that there is no God because there was no time in the beginning, to the concept of other's that Jesus was a Buddhist monk at one time. Young people, Christian or not don't need a church pew on Sunday morning, or an evangelical camping retreat to get information to form their thinking, all they have to do is escape web based music and entertainment. They don't need the guidance and advice of old preachers, nor old preacher's values and dogma. The US is a secular country, not a Christian country, and as such " faith plays second fiddle " in a political debate, at best.
Young people are finding out that once they are adults, if God is answering prayers, apparently the answer is mostly no. Many aren't going to be following a second fiddle player ( at best ) who only answers in the negative. As a result Church attendance is going to decline as these young people realize they have alternative life styles they might lead which have broad social acceptance. There are more than adequate explanations of things without having to rely on the churches or religious leaders concepts of faith.
Good Post. Who will Jesus find when he comes back? Only a faithful few......
Larry, you have the right to believe anything you want but there are thousands of beliefs to choose from. To be convincing, you have to tell me what special gift for "choosing" makes you right and all these others wrong. You can't skip that step! To do so is arrogant, self-righteous, and devoid of validity. Your beliefs aren't right unless you are right.
Remember, believing something does not make it true and that which is true, will be true, whether you believe it or not.
Perhaps the wisest prayer would be,"God, forgive me if I have chosen the wrong religion."
Larry, people used to use the bible to justify racism too.
Exactly. Choosing to disbelieve in the theory of gravity, for example is ultimately counterproductive.
Mandy,
Anyone who says they can use the bible to justify racism is a liar. I challenge anyone to show me a single teaching in the NT that condones much less justifies racism.
They won't find anything and we all know it.
Amen Larry!!
So obviously the "eternal" plan of a "loving" god. What horse@!$%#!
But people did, and history is wrought with it. Now, you do the same thing with homosexuality. you are on the wrong side of history larry, And I will bet that your god will be disappointed in you
People have done a lot of bad things saying that their religion allowed or promoted it, but I can still confidently state there are ZERO words in the New Testament condoning or promoting racism.
Secondly. Jesus clearly addressed homosexual behavior and all other sexual behavior that He said will send you to hell without repentance. I am pretty confident if I continue my final years as I have lived them since I made Him Lord of my life, that He will not be disappointed. I base that on HIS Promises.
So being intimate with the person you love will send you to hell... even if you are a great person in every aspect of your life. Yea right. I'm sure they'll wait at the pearly gates and Jesus will say "Yea, gee, you were a great person but... well @!$%#, you had anal sex. Sorry" Whereas you he will say "Well... you were judgmental against your fellows and did not support equal rights for your fellow man. You discriminated and fostered hatred... but hey, you never put anything up anyone's bum! Congrats!"
Jesus never speaks of homosexuality in the original Greek. Only Paul uses a word that is sometimes translated to "homosexuals", and other times to "pimps".
Larry I am also a Christian. Tell me where in the Bible does JESUS say anything about hpomosexuality?
Larry, what is clear is that you believe only the parts of the Bible that support what you already WANT to believe, and draw specious inferences from the rest. Do you understand that? It would be just as easy to ignore Leviticus's strictures against homosexual behavior as it is to ignore its strictures against eating shellfish and pork, and everything else. But you choose to cling to this one piece for one simple reason: because you WANT to. Because it supports your existing prejudices. To claim that it's for any other reason is an insult to God.
The fact that you feel this desperate need to consider homosexuals to be morally inferior to yourself says very ugly things about you as a person. I hope and pray that you learn to get over yourself, listen to logic and reason, and treat all people with respect.
well said ash!
When you truly ARE a Christian. It's hard to be a hypocrite at the same time. The young folks have figured this out. We don't want to be fake and phony to everyone like our baby boomer parents. We were taught the message of Christ as kids and throughout our lives. The problem occurs when the same establishment that preaches loving one an other but then spouts a message of hate to a specific group as if there are no other sinners in the world. True Christians see the flaw to the hateful value and remove it from their lives. Hence they stop going to church and celebrate the Lord with a little more rest on Sunday morning for the upcoming 40+ hour work week.
Come on Mike. Who are you to say what "true Christians" are? That sounds just as judgmental as the folks you are accusing of being hypocrites. What on earth is a "true Christian?" Every Christian is on a walk with Christ. Every single one is at a different stage of that walk. Some are spiritually weak, others are spiritually mature. I know Christians that are intolerant of homosexuality that are incredibly giving, caring people, but their ideology has been framed in a time where homosexuality was more rare, or more hushed. But you are not one to be calling these people false Christians. Your judgment is just as disgusting as theirs.
It's not limited to the young people. My wife and I are in our mid-50's and we stopped going to Mass and giving money to the church. When the church gets out of politics and the MN Marriage Ammendment, then we'll consider going back to church. I'm not holding my breath. Could be bye-bye to the big church.
hector. I am in my early 50s. I have had very dear friends in my life that are gay. God loves us all in spite of our sins. And one sin is no greater or lesser than the other. A sin is a sin. God has always had a plan for our salvation. Jesus did not come to confuse us. The bible is very clear on where God stands with the sin(not the sinner) of homosexual acts. Homosexuality has always been around. We may think we are more enlightened, more knowledgeable, more intellectual. Do we know more than God? Does the word of God change? Does the truth change? The church is not involved in politics. It is politics that is trying to define a religious institution. Marriage is a religious institution and sacrament. And believe it or not between one man and one woman. The government needs to step up and do the right thing. keep religion out of it. The state of Washington accepts and recognizes civil unions between homosexuals, and their rights are protected. Civil unions have nothing to do with religion and marriage( a religious institution). We are all loved by God and are called to love one another. The sad reality of this whole situation is that all people will never agree on this. Religious or non religious. In that case, resign yourself to learn the faith if it matters to you. And if it doesnt matter to you, that is your right. In any case, Peace be with you and with all of Gods people!!! Peace is what we should hope for all!!!
Isn't that what our Muslim president wanted
Wow that was worth at least one NO VALUE click.
Yes, because Muslims are lefty, liberal, fascist, communists who love gay people.
Sam, fascism is actually a right-wing phenomenon.
" fascism is actually a right-wing phenomenon"
That was BEFORE 2008. Now, apparently, fascism and communism are exactly the same thing. Karl Rove and Fox News said so. You must not be getting the nutty emails.
I'm not sure why Germany and Russia were fighting each other in WWII, since they shared the same "liberal", "lefty" philosophy.
Sam,
I got the sarcasm. Funny!!
NOOO! I will NEVER allow gays or lesbians to dance around my totem pole, or sacrifice a goat at my alter!!!
Altar, you moron.
In my religion, it's "alter".
God told me. How do you know God told me? Why....because I told you he did, of course.
Oh no, watch out, the spelling police are here.
Will not allow gays to dance around my "pole" either, just extremely HOT lezzies who will do each other afterwards!
I hope that the issue is fought successfully and that religion also suffers -- best of both worlds!
Justin just maybe you need to read the definition of Bronze-age beliefs. go to genetic Fallacy another speaking out his left ear,
The writer poses the question "Could gay marriage debate drive young Christians from church?"
And the only reasonable answer is "We can hope".
Organized religions are polarizing influences on modern society, and one with which we could readily do without. There is, or course, tremendous social and sociological benefit to like-mined peoples congregating in fellowship and mutual support, and at one time Religion likely had some survival benefit, but that time is passed.
People demonstrably need places of free association, and our Constitution recognizes that need. What 21st century society does NOT need is multi-millennial old belief systems parading around as universal truths when they are, in fact, neither universal, nor, depending on who and what you believe, even true.
Today's youth are more educated (largely) more sophisticated (would that it weren't so) and less willing to put up with blatant B.S. (hallelujah) than generations previously. I see this as a Good Thing, and if the downfall of organized religion is collateral damage, well, I won't lament the loss too much.
Nope, it's the way the crappy "Christians" are treating people who are gay. Young people are figuring out what they stand for. I'm straight, and I *HATE* being called a Christian. I'm open minded, and I don't feel like my religion should damn my friends to hell. I reject those age old dogmas.
Then you don't believe in God's word. A sin is a sin that can't be measured. God hates sin but not the sinner.
And homosexuality is not a sin, by god's own word.
The word of God does not change with the ways of the world. Christians don't hate gays, they simply believe thier lifestyle is a sin. Just like adultery, murder, lying, etc. etc. If you really are a Christian, you know that homosexuality is a sin. If not, you are deceiving yourself. No one I know ever said gays are subhuman or anything of the kind! I'm all for equal rights just don't make me accept that homosexuality is right or normal. And quit telling me I "hate" anyone!
How exactly are we treating them? How are they treating the Christians? The HATE speech comes from the gays and non-Christians. Open your eyes and see things the way they really are.
"and I don't feel like my religion should damn my friends to hell. I reject those age old dogmas"
you don't "feel" ? LOL, Guess what, You're not the one who came up with the Word of God, only GOD came up with the Word of God. lol you can "reject" all you want and you can "feel" what should and shouldn't be followed all you want but that doesn't make you right. Nor does it mean you actually have any authority to change God's Law.
LOL.
So I suppose you follow all of those rules in levitucus and stuff then, right? Do you wear blended fibers? do you eat shellfish or pigs? Do you have a tattoo? Sleep with your wife while she is on the rag? I could keep going...
Excuse me Duckie . . .first, the Church decided what books were in and what books were out of the Bible; second the Bible is NOT the Word of God, it CONTAINS the word of God; THE word of God is Christ and as far as I know he never condemned someone for being gay. Third, you have declared you know what Jesus would have said - you know his mind? Then go and sell all you have and give it to the poor. ignorant Christians are a dime a dozen and what's worse is that there are too many preachers who would not recognize the gospel if it bit them on their arse.
Those two comments show that you are someone who is most likely reflecting what someone told you rather than as a result of actually reading the Bible and studying to show yourself approved by God.
1. Among His teachings Jesus clearly condemned homosexual behavior along with all sexual immorality. He made it clear that fornication (pornea in the Greek text) which is ALL sex outside of the marriage of a man and a woman defiles a person (Matthew 15)
2. The go and sell verse applied to the rich young man and to anyone else who places their material possessions and wealth the Lordship of God. God blesses people with material blessings so that we can meet the needs of others. But when we are self centered with our blessings we are worshipping the blessing instead of the One who blesses.
Rev Larry Robinson
+1 to you, Larry.
And +1 to you, CWater. You've hit the nail on the head, although the anti-Christians on this site will ignore what you actually said while trying to spin it at the same time.
You do hate gays. Otherwise you would not select that small part of the Bible and ignor the ones about divorce. (one of many examples)
Larry, that is by no means an objective interpretation of Matthew 15. You choose to interpret it that way because it fits in with what you, personally, WANT to be true. You want to believe that Jesus was just as prejudiced as you are. Well, like many young Christians today, I happen to have a higher opinion of Him than that.
Ash! I just want to pretty much wrap this up with what you said. Someone way up the page made a remark about homosexual men being born gay. Let me say this much about that. If anything your born sinful but gay no. If homosexuality was not a sin then God would have never destroyed Sodom and Gomorra. Just like someone who kills is a murder. Maybe someone who looks at killing as being a greater good is okay but anyway you look at killing is a sin. No matter how much time has passed accepting same sex marriage now or in the future will always be the same. Its funny how know thinks about why gay marriage is being pushed so hard now. Why wasn't it being pushed for 100 years ago or 1000 years ago? For the simply fact that anyone who believes in good would have fell to their knees if they felt this way! Now we accept whatever we feel is right! All I can say is America better wake up before its too late. Sin will consume this nation and nothing will be left of it.
Ignorance abounds.
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of: inhospitality, attempted rape, idolatry. This is clear to anyone who reads the original texts.