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Subscribe to RSSEpiscopal bishops approved a resolution to create a liturgy for same-sex unions Monday during the Church’s 77th General Convention in Indianapolis, with 111 votes in favor and 41 opposing.
The resolution known as A049 will now move to the House of Deputies, which is made up of both clergy and lay people.
“It is the Jesus thing to do in our time,” the Rev. Michael Louis Vono of the Episcopal Diocese of the Rio Grande said in the meeting in support of the resolution.
In the proposed rites, each person would make a vow to the other, exchange rings and be declared "bound to one another in a holy covenant, as long as they both shall live." The resolution also asks that the liturgy be approved for provisional use starting the first week of Advent -- beginning on Dec. 2, 2012 -- and calls for a review process before the next General Convention in 2015. Congregations and clergy wishing to use the liturgy would need the permission of their bishops.
Some of the bishops who spoke against the resolution worried the decision would put the Episcopal Church out of the Christian mainstream, while the Rev. Steven Andrew Miller of Milwaukee asked whether the proposed blessings would create a second-class of LGBT people. Several bishops also worried that adopting the same-sex blessing legislation will be interpreted as an endorsement of same-sex marriage.
If the blessings legislation is approved, it would make the Episcopal Church the biggest Christian denomination in the United States with rites for gay unions. The United Church of Christ, a mainline Protestant denomination with about 1.3 million members voted in 2005 to support full civil and religious marriage equality for same-sex couples.
Earlier Monday, the resolution was passed by the General Convention Prayer Book, Liturgy and Church Music Committee key committee.
“This is clearly a work in process, and there is a place in that process for all Episcopalians, whether or not they agree with the action we are taking today,” Deputy Ruth Meyers of Chicago and Vermont Bishop Thomas Ely, chairs of the subcommittee on blessings, said in a press release.
The resolution was amended by the committee to specify that “no bishop, priest, deacon or lay person should be coerced or penalized in any manner, nor suffer any canonical disabilities, as a result of his or her conscientious objection to or support for the 77th General Convention’s action with regard to the Blessing of Same-Sex Relationships.”
In states that currently allow same-sex civil marriage, such as Massachusetts and New York, Episcopalians may already bless same-sex marriages, but there is no formal church-wide liturgy. Commitment ceremonies for gay couples are allowed elsewhere in the church at the discretion of the local bishop.
Nearly 40 people testified on the proposed resolution during a Saturday hearing, and supporters outnumbered opponents, according to the Episcopal News Service, the church's officially sponsored news source.
Among them was Jonathan York, a sophomore at Duke University, who described the conflict he said he and many young gay Christians feel.
"So many gay people feel like they’re being forced to make a choice: They can have their place in their church, or they can have their identity," York said, according to ENS.
If the resolution is passed, York said, it would show gay Christians “that they do in fact have a place in God’s home.”
While expressing support of York and other young gay Christians, the Rev. Danielle Morris of the Diocese of Central Florida went on to ask that the resolution be struck down, as she believes it could endanger Christians living in predominantly Muslim countries.
“We know people who live in terror of our decision," Morris said, according to ENS. "Let us sacrifice not the blood of new martyrs but our own personal desires, all for the good and betterment of the world.”
Others urged for more time to consider the resolution, adding that the decision should not be taken lightly. The Rev. Sharon Lewis, alternate deputy of the Diocese of Southwest Florida, said the resolution is more than a “pastoral provision,” according to ENS. “It is really representing a different definition of marriage," Lewis said.
On Saturday, the House of Bishops approved a proposal that would give transgender men and women the right to become ministers in the church, if it survives a final vote.
The House of Bishops voted to include "gender identity and expression" in its "non-discrimination canons," meaning sexual orientation, including that of people who have undergone sex-change operations, cannot be used to exclude candidates to ministry. The move comes nine years after the Episcopal Church approved its first openly gay bishop.
The Episcopal Church is an independent U.S.-based church affiliated with the worldwide Anglican Communion. The Church has about 2 million members mostly in the United States.
It is not the only major U.S. denomination considering same-sex marriage issues.
The U.S. Presbyterian Church on Friday narrowly rejected a proposal for a constitutional change that would redefine marriage as a union between "two people" rather than between a woman and a man. The church, with around 2 million members, currently allows ministers to bless gay unions but prohibits them from solemnizing gay civil marriages.
Reuters contributed to this report.
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Good for you, Episcopal Church leaders!! It was the right thing to do.
Watch how many perfectly christian gay people flock to the Episcopalian church. $$$Cha Ching$$$
Uh... We.... You have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention, but following what we honestly thought was God's calling to us have resulted in many leaving our denomination. Yes, many GLBT people have joined us in turn, but the truth is that this has been a very hard decision for us. Moreover, this is only the most recent battle that the Episcopal Church has fought to expand civil rights. We were busing people to the south to march beside Reverand King. We were ordained women back in the 1970s and began ordaining gays and lesbians almost 20 years ago. We have been in conflict with most of the other Anglican churches because of our stance.
I invite you to come to an Episcopal Church and see the work that is being done. In my small parish, we feed the poor with a soup kitchen and a food pantry, we provide a coat closet during the winter, we help run a homeless shelter for families. We recently raised funds to provide school fees for 40 children in Haiti and provided more than a hundred mosquito nets to Africa. And that is only a fraction of the things we are doing. I gather you are very cynical, but money is not what we are doing.
On the larger scale, at this General Convention, the church has decided to sell several of our large properties because they were sucking money away from our mission work. These prestigious properties did nothing but enhance our image and the money from the sale and that which will be saved from their maintenance will be allocated to mssion work.
Can anyone show me where in the following support for marriage corruption is vindicated: Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:8-10, I Corinthians 6:9, Corinthians 6:18-20, I Timothy 1:8-11 (NASB), Revelation 21:8, Revelation 22:14-1
By my readings they have just counted themselves among the Godless.
"When you belong to me you will hate what I hate."
Randy can you show one place where Jesus mentions homosexuality? Furthermore, since you cite two passages from Leviticus do you abstain from pork and shellfish? Do you where clothing only made from one material? Do you nor trim your beard or shave? Do you nor cut the hair on the side of your head? Do you not eat meat and dairy at the same table? If you are doing any of these plus the numerous other prohibitions of Leviticus then you are violating the Law of Moses as well. Furthermore, have you looked the Greek meaning for "homosexual" in the New Testament? It is almost always a the term that connotes child molestation rather than the term used to identify two consenting adults in a committed relationship. "Do not judge or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1. "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 1 John 3:15. I am an Episcopalian and am rather pleased with the what my church has done today. You and your type will be remembered along with those who used the Bible to justify slavery and segregation.
You're right, Randy. The Episcopla church is now related to the church of Laodicea, as mentioned in Revelation. Lukewarm, and God will spit them out of His mouth.
RandyEK well said. I simply do not understand who these so called churches can condone two people of the same sex acting as man and wife. God and nature are repulsed by these so called unions yet these people, who profess to follow Christ call it holy. I am but a simple Christian, or Christ follower, and I know Christ could not abide sin. He loved the sinner, but condemned the unrepented. He has not changed and yet these people say He did. On what do they base their theology?
Vince, your questions show you know nothing about what the Bible says. First of all, ALL of the Bible is God's word ... Jesus quoted from it constantly. Just because Jesus didn't address that or many other issues directly is of no consequence. Either you believe in the Bible or you don't.
Considering the age old argument about the eating of shellfish (or any other Old Testament requirements), the New Testament confirms that those laws were required of the Jews, to set them apart as God's people. The law was to direct people to Jesus Christ ... who is the ONLY One who met those standards. Read Galatians 3:24, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:6, Galatians 3:19, Galatians 5:18.
The word "Homosexual" was coined in 1869 by one researcher in reference to a theoretical individual spending their entire life exclusively attracted sexually to members of the same gender. Jesus said nothing about "Homosexuals" because the notion of an exclusively same-gender sex addict did not exist in Jesus' day; and it only exists in theory today.
Jesus did say to leave the sin and sin no more; not embrace the sin as just a unavoidable fact of life.
To Richod: They are not related to the Laodicean church, but to the church of Thyatira:
"Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways."
Replace "That woman Jezebel, who calls herself a phophetess" with, reverend, pastor, teacher, preacher, evangelist, deacon, etc. etc. Any church whose authorities are living a same-sex life style, along with those within the church who are supporting and tolerating this, their faith is in vain. People keep saying, "Jesus never said anything about homosexuality" yes he did! The entire bible is the word of Christ, for he is the spoken word of God made flesh. He is the "I am" who spoke with Moses. He is the one who met Abraham at his tent with the two angels prior to destroying Sodom and Gomorra and the surrounding cities for their same-sex activities. The word of God says that Jesus created all things and by him all things are held together.
As if creating love in life and celebrating life as a fact needs approval from any religion. In Afg. it is men killing women over 'honor' and here we sanction social murder through judgment powered by our 'Christian' religions. I question if we are any better than the Afgnis we are killing. Our hypocrisy is amusing at best.
Peter Jacobs ( :, --devil smiles on you!!!!!!-- if you read Don-816006 you SHOULD leave with the 'impression' that you have encountered "greatness". None-the-less, YOU, You are someone who is "spaced out" AND "appeasing to THEMSELF/ Only". But, it's O.K. ["FOOL"], 'greatness' in -limit- as-it-is! ( : "stupid".
God will not be mocked by the foolishness of these churches giving in to the wickedness of the sin of homosexuality.
RandyEK - Get your nose out of your neighbor's spouse's crotch. Gender proud is fine, but gender obsessed has gone the way of the dinosaur (that is if you believe in fossils and reality).
Timothy1Mil - Perhaps your hateful 'god' but apparently a whole lot of people
believeknow their god is simply better then yours. Oh well!John, and may God smile upon you and all good things shower you with blessings in your life. What you pray for others will manifest in your life. Power is knowing where you can make a difference. Force is trying to change something outside of you and it consumes vital energy.
John, The devil does not exist. As long as your intention is good, your heart is pure, any interpretation is just that. In Nature, destruction is a part of creation, as the end of a cycle and the beginning of a new one. Even super stars go nova showering others with specks of gold. Where exactly is the devil in that? I say the devil exists only on a weak mind.
THAN WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEP CITING IT ?!?!?!?!
It's absolutely ridiculous how ya'll cite Leviticus and then when challenged you say 'oh, but we follow the new testament'... How absolutely obtuse can a person be? That's WHY people ask you the 'age old' shellfish question, because you keep blabbering about Leviticus yet turn around and say it doesn't count with the sort of insane level of hypocrisy that only the ultra-religious are capable of.
I didn't know "God's calling" demanded people to judge gays and lesbians, and then (like a number of posters here, not you specifically) make long debunked arguments (lies) and strawmen (more lies) to make a point. Isn't it Islam that's constantly berated for saying it's ok to lie for the sake of Islam? It seems the Christians aren't lost on that teaching either.
Could you explain just wtf you mean by 'it only exists in theory today' ? Lol what nonsense.
Rather presumptive to think you speak for God and Nature.
No. You are a Paulite, like the rest of your ilk. You don't know Christ.

What do they teach you in Church these days? You believe any ol' thing the preacher tells you? It's clear if you actually read the passage yourself without the hate-goggles on that the cities were destroyed due to the rape, abuse, and inhospitality of the inhabitants. The meaning of "sodomy" has changed over the years, and like any good ol' bigots - they have began using it as a deragatory term for homosexuals.
Gay/Lesbian is a 21st century political construct that has no basis in the laws of nature. The very fact that you have to change the meaning of words just to lend an appearance of acceptability to your depravity speaks volumes of who you are and what you represent.
Hating what God hates is not only proper; it also happens to be divine.
"When you belong to me you will hate what I hate."
Nature is full of examples of sex changes and same sex co-existence. The fact that your morality can't handle it means that your evolution is on-going and is still maturing. Finally, the fact that you have to call in ANY BIBLE, written by man, citing it as the word of God, in order to force others to accept a limited view of what nature is, or could be, simply means that a limited mind, blinded by false morality, is feeling the tail of an elephant instead of the whole animal.
Different
I John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."
Proverbs 10:24
1"0 If you faint in the day of adversity, Your strength is small."
I keep asking myself, and God, why the world seems to have gone so crazy. Now I know why. When the basis of your existance for some 2000+ years is ignored, you are no longer what you once were. And the world seems to have run amok.
If people choose to practice homosexuality, then they are not christian. And that is their right. It is not their right to force it upon the rest of us.
I'm not a homophobe. However, aside from religion, it's not natural. The two sexes were created to make more of themselves. It goes against nature.
And there you have it. Nobody is forcing anything upon anyone. You have free choice of your sex. Allow others theirs. If God gave man free will, who are we to take it away from one another? Why would a gay man or woman not be a Christian. Does choosing a religion require a choice in sexuality? Or color? Or height? Maybe those who judge others are the ones suffering the most?
In the first place, the world existed -- including homosexuals -- long before anyone believed in any "god".
Second, no one "chooses" to practice homosexuality, unless you can tell us when you "chose" to practice heterosexuality.
Third, who are YOU to determine what makes a Christian?
Fourth, exactly what is being "forced" on you or anyone else?
Who is forcing homosexuality on you? Tell me how it affects your marriage or your life in any way shape or form. I am asking for just one way a gay marriage affects your world any differently from any other marriage.
Then perhaps you can explain why, if homosexuality is "not natural," it has been documented in approximately 1,500 animal species (besides humans).
Episcopalians have always been ahead of the learning curve in relation to the other Christian denominations. This is especially surprising given that they are a protestant denomination.
Shucklack, you made me do a slow clap. The whole "Leviticus doesn't count unless we want it to count, and then only specific parts that we want to count" is a tired string of BS! I hope more and more people call them out on it. It's nothing but a cop out and a way to justify hatred.
If you look at gay people as being intrinsically evil, then you will treat them as evil. In treating someone as evil you will visit upon them all manner of oppression, persecution, harm, and segregation. These things are themselves an act of evil, especially when visited upon people for no other reason than the fact that they exist.
Oh, be careful ErinNJ, I've heard them counter that argument already. Their counter argument goes something like this: "Well, other animals in nature eat their young, old, and wounded. Should we start doing that too just cause it's natural?"
Makes a lot of sense doesn't it? /sarc/ Especially coming from people who argued against homosexuality because it "wasn't natural".
We eat our young all the time by sending them into wars we ourselves wouldn't go into. We eat our young all the time by increasing National debt into the future. Etc, etc. We are part of the animal kingdom but would like to think that because we think we are above Nature.
Erin,
Were you there? Do you have any real proof? Do you know at the current life expectancy, two people can become 7 billion in about 2000 years?
One thing the ice cores show us is that the earth has a pattern of ice ages and growth periods ranging from 13,500 - 15,000 years on length and total between 600,000 years and 750,000 years of history? We are at about 13,000 years since the last major ice age. The Bible timeline, and their is a traceable one, shows us that our existence on earth to be 6000 years, that the "creation' took place over 7000 years. It also shows that the Earth was already here and actually re-formed to it's current state.
How do we know that creatures survived all those ice ages? Dating systems are only so accurate and have various known limitations in time. How do we know that some of the creatures we dig up were from other creations?
And you wish others to accept your word that homosexuality existed before there was any god, religion?
Really? So, I didn't choose to get married to my wife? So, I didn't choose to have sex with my wife. Heck, I could have chosen many other people that would accept my advances, couldn't I? I could have chosen to be celibate and ignore sexuality all together. Desiring sexual relations is natural, but you chose when and how you exercise it. Couldn't "help it" is a cop out!
Good question! If man is the one who decides, the highest standards are pretty low. Man can chose to tell you his heart on the matter, but man doesn't have to tell the Truth.
Man perform all the laws and rites in the Bible, and still not be a "Christian". "Christian" is a term that was given to people who appeared "Christ-like" by people who did not believe or follow Christ. God's terms are do you believe in what I did, and will you do anything I ask.
BTW. Christians aren't perfect, but they are forgiven for their imperfections through Jesus's sacrifice.
DB, were YOU there? Do you have any real proof that the events described in the bible actually took place? You obviously do not know -- or do not care -- that nothing in the bible has been proven, but evolution has. Furthermore, hieroglyphs were uncovered that showed the existence of homosexuals long before there was any bible.
Did you "choose" your attraction to your wife? Did you "choose" your attraction to anyone else? Would you want to marry or have sex with someone to whom you were not attracted? You can choose your behavior -- like marriage, having sex, making advances, being celibate, etc. -- but you cannot choose your innate orientation. However, like so many ignorant bigots, you confuse behavior with orientation.
DB if you chose to be strait. I as a strait man have some bad news for you...
DB, views on homosexuality are opinion, but it you deny science, we will just laugh at you.
It is Stated , man on man , is Wrong , Yesterday Today and ,tommorrow. And the Almighty is the same Yeserday, Today , and Forever!
Who stated it, when was it stated, where was it stated and most importantly, was it stated before or after Nature came into existence? Me thinks you are judging based on opinions written by narrow minds. Could homosexuality have existed even prior to language? If so, where does that leave your argument now? Judgement always has its root in not understanding and unwillingness, maybe even hatred, and only the bearer feels it. The object of judgement doesn't even know what the bearer is feeling.
Well, that didn't take long. The homophobes were quick to respond. If you don't like what the Episcopalians feel that they are called to do (support civil rights), then don't be an Episcopalian. As a cradle, and hopefully to grave, Episcopalian, I'm proud of my denomination. We were right about the Civil Rights movement, and we were right about Equal Rights for women, and we were right about equality of the GLBT community, and in a decade or two, I'm darn sure we will be prove right about marriage equality.
Civil rights and Christian values are different animals sometimes, differnet. I would be disgusted with my denomination if I were you. Equal rights and Biblical (clear) rights and wrongs are not the same. You and your misguided brethern are contorting what is clearly wrong. Proud? Pride goeth before the fall.
I want to clarify for those who are not Episcopalian. This is just an formalization of a Liturgy that will be eventually in the Book of Common Prayer for same sex marriages. Many priests and diocese have officiated where there is legal marriage equality for some time now and where it is not, they frequently perform a blessing over such a union.
Well, Chuck, I'm pretty disgusted with denominations that discriminate against the LGBT community. So, I guess were equal. Thank goodness you aren't an Episcopal.
Christian values are not secular laws. I am glad that our government is a not a CHURCH.
I'm glad the government isn't a Church either. The government is about power and Christianity is supposed to be about humbleness. A man cannot serve two masters at one time. Either you worship God or you worship power - the power to oppress other people being one of those things. Our forefathers were very smart, they understood that men cannot help themselves and will happily use religion to oppress their fellow man. When politics and religion combine, it is ultimately religion that looses, since it becomes about power and not about God.
Gay people should be afforded similar rights as straight people whom are not married. They should not be afforded insurance advantages over straight people under the guise of "Significant Other". Nor Human Resources advantage for fear of zealot attorneys, and no special recognition for deviant behaviour. There is nothing special about a gay person and they should be afforded reasonable rights under reasonable expectations of the law. But---they are not more special than a Heterosexual. They deserve no special treatment. They are different and nothing more.
If a gay couple chooses to marry, the State should afford equal protections under a legal blanket for each partner in that bond. It is not for the Church to confuse the will of God in accepting what the Bible, Torah, and Koran do not accept. Ask the simple question.
Where would we be if it was Adam and Steve? Gay people do not deserve special rights above straight people. They are only different, not special
Please.. show me one example from a legitimate source in which gays/lesbians have "special rights" over heterosexuals. I think its the other way around right now. Heterosexuals can be legally married and receive all the benefits that go with it. Reverse discrimination at it's finest.
A gay couple can claim "Significant Other" relation status and receive health care benefits as a couple and under "Group Insurance Plans". I as a straight person could never make such claims with my "Significant Other" because we are of opposite sex and it is assumed that we have more rights only because the laws of this land found under the guise of a Judeo/Christian society considered it a Christian Act to marry and pro-create. That touches on the argument of Adam and Steve. It didn't give us a right to grab ass in public, massage each others heart with our tongues in public, or other related obscene acts beyond reasonable and acceptable acts of affection that should be shared in a more intimate environment, not as an act at a Circus Show. As a gay, you have more rights than a straight person. if you don't believe it you have led a severely sheltered life.
Raging
IdiotCapitalist,The story of Adam and Eve is allegorical, not historical. That means it is a story meant to offer the reader a lesson, not historical fact. Therefore, your reference the story of Adam and Eve has no meaning.
Gay people do not want different or special rights, they want exactly the same rights that heterosexual couples have - to get married to the person that you love and to have the rights and benefits that society and the government have choosen to grant married couples. It is because the state and federal governments bow to the will of the religious right and refuse to legalize gay marriage that others have taken steps to grant gay couple commensurate rights with married heterosexual couples.
Churches have every right to interpret the Word of God as the conscience of the teaching authority of that Church sees fit. If the Episcopalian Church chooses to interpret God's Word as permitting the performance of that liturgy that so be it. If you are a member of that Church and don't agree, there are other churches to join. If you're not a member of that church then it should make no difference to you as it has no bearing on your life.
Raging Capitalist
Does the federal government recognize this for gay/lesbians? No, it's the private sector that is offering same sex benefits. Read up on exactly what it takes to make that happen as well. Trust me, the benefits are NOT cheaper than a married couple, or I would have personally taken that option. Why are they offering them? Because gays/lesbians CANNOT be legally married in most states or even recognized by the federal government. Even then, there are MANY bigoted corporations that will NEVER offer same sex benefits. You can marry a member of the opposite sex and NO corporation can deny you benefits because of it.
Yes, you can. It's called "Marriage". If you marry a woman you are immediately entitled to the same benefits. Please do not reply that "you shouldn't have to get married" either. That's a cop out. Many heterosexual couples marry for financial benefits such as 'cheaper' insurance. Leave Christianity out of the entire argument. There is no established religion in the United States and there never will be. God is not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution and never will be.
Why are you focused on the gay sexual aspects of a relationship. There is a lot more to it than those things. Quite frankly, we see heterosexuals doing all of the things you commented on and its also a CIRCUS show. Those things should be done in the right setting. If it's wrong for gays to do it, then its also "WRONG" for heterosexuals to do it as well.
Gays do NOT have 1 special right. Post a source with an example of where a gay/lesbian has more rights than you do. In this country, you have a special right.. it's called, the ability to legally discriminate against gays/lesbians. It won't last long though.. SCOTUS will rule against that soon enough.
Differnet, as a fellow Episcopalian, I want to echo what you said and I would like to say that I am please with our bishops. Chuck, since you are not an Episcopalian, I suppose this is really none of your business. Why don't you worry about your own church and let us worry about ours. I'm disgusted with your bigotry and narrow minded beliefs.
Vince, well, I'm very proud of the Episcopal Church. We've made some hard choices over the years and I'm glad to say that we've always been proven right.
As for the same sex marriage and the Episcopal Church, no on forces anyone in the USA to marry and no one forces anyone to belong to a particular faith. If they don't like same-sex marriage, fine. They shouldn't get married to someone of the same gender and they can skip the weddings too. If they don't like the Episcopal Church's decision, fine too. You wouldn't be comfortable in our denomination and we probably wouldn't be all that comfortable with them. We are doing just fine with the believers we have right now. We go where we feel God is calling us. We answer to God first, last and always.
To differnet:
This is not about civil rights and civil rights doesn't override the word of God. Those who want to engage in this same-sex activity are free to do so, but we who belong to Christ, hate what God hates.
We cannot support, nor tolerate, nor vote in favor of what these people are doing. We are merely doing what Christ told us to do and that is to let the world know that their is salvation in Christ and there is also eternal consequences for rejecting Christ and his word. Contending for the truth of God's word is not judging them, for they have the opportunity to repent and be saved just as we are. If we were to say to them, "you're all going to hell no matter what," then that would be judging. We are saying that this life style is sin and unless they repent and receive Christ, this will lead to condemning judgment and the lake of fire. This is guaranteed, because all who have not received Christ are already on the road to destruction. You don't have to do anything to get on that road because, all people are automatically on it when they come into the world and that because of Adam and Eve's disobedience and because of our own sins. The only way to get off that road is through Christ.
People talking ill of their neighbors in here... wonder what the bible has to say about that...
Your leadership has YOU in -BIND- (at "differnet")
If you believe that, then your are ignoring the facts (aka ignorant). There are no 'gay' federal tax forms, they must file separately, they cannot easily reflect common transactions like home sales or anything else a married couple would. Tell the IRS to not listen to DOMA, because gays DO pay more taxes then you.
Don - Civil Rights ARE Christian values. They are from God. i'm really sorry you don't understand that.
raging capitalist, are you actually complaining about gay people getting something you can't(insurance through a significant other) cause of denying them something you get(marriage)? if so, you should be for gay marriage as it would take away their special rights and your special rights and make you equal. your argument is a stupid one.
Don,
"This is not about civil rights and civil rights doesn't override the word of God."
Ths is the most anti-American statement I have ever read. Your civil rights are guaranteed to you by the constitution of these United States of America, and that supercedes and transcends any religion, including yours, mine, and everyone else here. That's where Christians get mixed up. The constitution is gos in this country, above all others.
Chris
Anything that supercedes god, becomes god. Since Government, created by man, who creates "rights", then government is god, and is man's creation. How can a creation of man be God?
DB,
You assume there is a god. But, since "God" is merely an unproven hypothesis, the physical, written Constitution of the U.S.A. definitely supersedes it.
That doesn't make government a god. There really is no need for one.
DB Akron:
God does not create rights. Man creates rights. God is not mentioned anywhere in the Declaration of Independence nor mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution. The founding fathers were smart enough to include Amendment #1 and prevent the establishment of any national religion in this country.
SCOTUS Rulings about Religion in the United States.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html
Actually, you mean that everyone who doesn't accept your particularly narrow view of "what God wants" is condemned to eternal damnation.
I suspect if that is true the total population of Heaven will always be under a million.
it is poop on weenies, and that is a fact!
Let's show how adult we can be.........
So?
You need to get off the computer and only use the Internet with the supervision of your parents. I'm sure it must be passed your bedtime now, so you better log off or you'll end up spending your entire summer vacation on restriction. Night night.
And people wonder why we think gay-bashers are immature mental midgets?
How sick a comment on the moral state of the "church" that it would as an institution try to legitimize what is so clearly condemned by the Sciptures. Bowing to the perverse propensities of society vs. God. You are the false prophet of the last age.
There are a lot of things so clearly condemned by scriptures but you do it anyway.
Do you wear linen? Eat cheeseburgers? Are you circumcised? Do you eat shellfish? Do you every disobey your parents? Remember Onan?
The Bible lists numerous abominations and prohibits many behaviors. It also allows behaviors that are wrong like owning slaves and forcing rape victims to marry their attackers.
Care to quote chapter and Verse, Chuck? And before you quote Leviticus, make sure to list all the other stuff that book condemns as well.
Don't need to quote the Old Testament, religious humanists.
Jesus Christ described marriage in Mark 10, Paul describes the sin of homosexuality in Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6. There is no dispute about what the Bible says concerning this particular sin or what a marriage looks like.
The issue is really about who is in charge and who has the power. On both counts, any rebellion against the Word of God and His demand of holiness and moral living for His people will result in death for the lovers of sin.
Oh, and don't forget that the so called Episcopalian leadership will be held to a much stricter and severe judgment.
You should consider loving Christ more than your own opinions, Episcopalians.
Chuck McMahon
Believe what you choose to believe. However, it has absolutely NO bearing on our secular laws. Its simply wrong to deny ALL Americans Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. IF you prefer a country that is based on religious scripture, I hear Iran is a good place to live.
Harold,
Which is it? Strict punishing god or loving Christ? BTW, "so called" is a judgement, should you be judging others, just curious if there something in your religion about judging others?
Herald9 - You say that 1 Corinthians 6:9 condemns homosexuality. The Scripture says, (King James Version) "9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
This does not refer to homosexuality. It may condemn effeminate men, but there are effeminate straight and gay men just as there are masculine straight and gay men.
Also, you need to Paul's letter to the Romans in context. In Romans 1:21-28, Paul talks about people who refused to acknowledge and glorify God (v. 21), the worshiping of idols (v23), people who were more interested in earthly pursuits than spiritual pursuits (v.25), people who gave up their NATURAL, innate passion for the opposite s e x in search of pleasure (v. 26-27), and people who live lives full of covetousness, malice, envy, and hatred of God (v. 29-31).
None of these apply to most gay people (except v.26-27), and since gays DO NOT CHOOSE to be gay according to the American Psychiatric Association, even this does not apply to most homosexuals.
Chuck, marriage was around well before Christianity. So if one sect takes a more civil rights-based view on it, what's the big deal?
Jesus never once mentions homosexuality - fact. He does however say, "Do not judge or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1. He also says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:30-31. Tell me how your attitude reflects the attitude of Christ in the Gospels? Jesus went on to condemn the religious leaders of his day for establishing ridiculous, rigid rules and not caring for other. "Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them." Luke 11:46. This is exactly what you are doing in your hatred of homosexuals. You are burdening them with loads of guilt and hatred that you yourself will not lift one finger to help them carry.
So many false doctrines being spewed by people who really don't study the Word of God at all ... but only boast their opinions.
WE - Almight God is BOTH a Holy God, and also a forgiving God. Without Christ, you will find punishment. With Him, you're already forgiven.
Spydergirl - Read your Bible. To get answers to all your false arguments, ready specifically Romans and Galatians. The law was for the Jewish people, to set them apart and direct them to their coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. Only Jesus met the Law's requirements - none of us can. Thus we need Him for our salvation.
To Toasty:
Marriage was not created by the church. It was created in the beginning by God himself when he made Eve for Adam and joined them in marriage. Seeing that they were the first couple, I would say that marriage superceeds religions and goverments and that because marriage was established by God before there were governments or people for that matter. For this reason a man will leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife and the two will become one flesh.
Yes, Chuck! You are wise,
That passage you refer to is in response to a question about divorce. Two flesh becoming one (via a child) makes a marriage permanent, whether you divorce or not - the marriage is forever. That's the meaning of the passage. It has nothing to do with homosexuality.
You know, when ya'll start misrepresenting the meaning of Biblical passages to fit an agenda, it really calls into question the validity of your stance - you realize that, right? You do realize, I hope, that LYING is not only a sin, but is a pretty solid indicator that your position is indefensible.....
I'm sorry, but your allegorical creation myth has absolutely no legal bearing whatsoever - not to mention no bearing on reality.
Convenient, Chuck, that you feel compelled to judge others with such hostility, and then disappear. Com back and tell us how you follow ALL of the laws of Liviticus to the letter. If you do not, then you are in fact guilty of sin.
pmdww2
There are no precise translations from Hebrew to English, nor Greek to English. Translations are an attempt to capture what is meant. By using a word or a phrase to capture the meaning often only captures part of the whole. Here is a couple of other versions of the same verse.
I Corinthians 6:9 - various translations
the circle is the less common word "catamites" - a roman term for a young boy kept as a sexual companion.
People of the day have a tendency to pick translations that they agree rather than what they can understand or it's accuracy.
Some translaters are like Paul who's actual words were quite frank, cutting, to the point, and others seek to smooth over someone like Pauls words to eloquence or soften for "innocent" or "civil". Being Paul was the author, Catamite is probably what he used.
Shuklack
Marriage is for life on earth. There is no marriage in heaven.
Understanding the scriptures is from the Spirit of God. As long as you dismiss what is there as a myth, then you cannot receive the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit will not go in where he is not welcome. If he does, then you have no choice, and that is the whole point here. God gives you everything and would like you to willingly recognize that, and let him have you back, all of you, not just what your are willing to give up.
Obviously you have spent some time looking, so, what if it is true? Can you afford to be wrong about this? If you truly unreserved open yourself to him, he will come and you will never let go.
DB, what if it is not true? Can you afford to be wrong about this? What is you live your whole life according to the word of god, and are then cast into nothingness. Then what? Then we are both equal once again. Both of us will have taken separate paths to the same place.
And that's a bad thing how?
This misguided decision as well as others clearly takes the "Episcopal Church" out of the Christian mainstream entirely. So sad, so many misled willingly in the final days.
The Christian mainstream is a historical bloodbath. Talk about being misled. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. I know blah blah blah when it doesn't align with your motive - just skip over those pages.
Note that the final vote was 111 to 3. Discussion about what each choice we make does not mean that we don't go ahead with it. There is an old saying about Episcopalians, you can always find someone to disagree with you in the Episcopal Church. Open thought and discussion are pretty much a prerequisite to be an Episcopalian.
You know what's really sad. The big burning issues that are before the General Convention do not even get a mention in the news. We have chosen to sell off many posh properties because the cost of maintaining them was cutting into our mission budgets. We are discussing resolutions on Israel and the Palestinians. We are discussing an open table theology. Does that get mentioned?!? Nope. *sigh*
Mike-32658799,
Too many people who don't study the word of God speak about judgment, yet, they don't understand what kind of judgment God is speaking of, which is condemning judgment. When a mere man passes a condemning sentence, that person sits in the place of God. Making a judgment based on seeing a person committing sin, is not condemning judgment. We as Christians are to make judgments and tell those who are committing the sins about the error of their ways and that for the sake of bringing them back to walking in the faith. For living in the flesh leads to death.
So to recap, the type of judgment that we are not supposed to be doing, is passing a condemning sentence upon an individual. There is nothing wrong with telling someone that they have wandered away from the truth or that what they are doing will lead them to condemning judgment if they continue in it. Consider the following Scripture:
"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins."
If we were not able to make a judgment, that is, to form an opinion, how could anyone ever bring back someone who had wandered away from the truth?
Geezzzz ..... no one gets it right. We go from hating the sinner to glorifing the sin. Hate the sin lover the sinner.
Huh?!? Creating a liturgy to unite two people into a loving committed relationship is a sin? I would think that the high divorce rate would be a more worrisome problem for Christians to worry about. By the way, I'm pretty sure no one is forcing you to be an Episcopalian or attend one of our services.
differnet: stop commenting about Christianity. Once you left the Bible out in it's reasonable context, you entered the realm of feelings driven conjecture and subjective opinions.
This is fatal, spiritually. Stop adoring yourself and start loving the One who died for you.
Ahh... Heraldo, you have no idea what the Episcopal Church is. But like many who profess Christianity, you are probably very unschooled in theology and probably relatively unchurched. I would bet you could not even identify the doctrine of most of the denominations in the USA without looking it up.
Thank goodness THERE IS NO GOD, so none of this matters anyway.
America First means freedom first...gotta love reasonable believers like Episcopalians.
Ah ... WE - now we know your true feelings. Your Bible quoting was only to try to make it fit your sinful desires.
Differnet - Some us think that deciding what is sin is God's decision alone. And I don't hate homosexuals, so I'm not a hater. But I will not support a sinful lifestyle, or I would be hating them ... by not speaking the truth to them.
Richod,
Since you think deciding what is sin is God's decision alone, how can you define gay marriage as a sinful lifestyle? Here's my true feelings - comments like yours only serve to demonstrate the illogic of parroting the sermons read to you by whatever preacher you listen to on Sunday mornings. Jesus lived with and loved all of his fellow men. Give it a try, why don'tcha?
Richod,
No one is asking you to support what you consider a sinful lifestyle.
Are you Episcopalian? If so, leave the church.
Do you think same-sex marriage is immoral, sinful and distasteful? Don't have one.
Really, it's simple.
No wonder the Episcopal church is declining, the bishops have become a bunch of Sodomites. From ~3,600,000 in 1966, to <2,000,000 today.
Funny, church attendance is up at my parish and from what I gather across or diocese. Church attendance is off across the USA overall. Even the Southern Baptists are in a panic about their dwindling numbers. You see, mammon has won over most Americans. So, Spike, were you in church this past Sunday?
yeah, i'm sure in 1966 people knew that this was happening and stopped coming then. lol.
clue for ya - membership in mainline denominations in the US has been falling for decades. Your membership decline has nothing to do with gay anything.
vermontguy.... In 1966, the state I live in had blue laws. On Sunday morning, stores could not be open. That's my point. Consumerism won. Yes, the numbers are down, but that's not neccessarily a bad thing. A lot of people use to go to church because that what was expected, not because they actually believed. Now, at least, on Sunday, when I share the peace with the people in my parish, we do so with the full knowledge that we all want to be there. That being there on Sunday means something for us. Is it better to have full pews of people who don't really care or have fewer people who care deeply. That's hard to say.
vermontguy,
I do not think any other major denomination has declined ~50% in 45 years.
My family have been Episcopalians for generations. To my knowledge, very few are still members.
Northern Baptists, Congregationalists, the Catholic Church (even if you no longer attend, if you were baptized they still count you. The Episcopal Church only counts people who are actively attending AND have been confirmed into the church. My own parish has many people who attend but have not chose to be confirmed. As a result, they do not show up on the rolls of members). You kind of have to know how each denomination actually does their own counting.
spike: again, what does a decline from FIFTY years ago have to do with a decision made today? Quoting irrelevant statistics is, well, irrelevant. :)
and I won't even get into any discussions of how many real members there are, etc...the point is that MOST (if not all) non-evangelical major denominations in the US have been declining for decades..well before gay became an issue.
try again?
"...try again?"
Why? The Episcopalian membership has declined more than any other denomination. The reason? Simple, the ultra liberal direction the bishops have taken.
Spike, so let me get this straight, you equate numbers with being right? Considering that the numbers sent Jesus to the cross, I would much rather be among the minority that actually follows his word, then be among a large crowd who lives by the letter of the law, rather than the spirit. You go with your numbers. We've been right for the last 50 years when it has come to civil rights and history will prove us right on this one too.
Thank goodness you aren't an Episcopalian.
"Spike, so let me get this straight, you equate numbers with being right?..."
I equate the falling number of members with their disgust with the PC stance of the bishops. As far as being right goes, sodomy has never been acceptable in Christian churches. Until, of course, the "leaders" buy into the "Emperor's New Clothes" idea of acceptance of deviant behavior. What next? Bestiality? NAMBLA?
Uh, Spike? Church attendance is down all over. I suspect you'll find that it's actually down less in the Episcopal churches.
Well Spike, in the past maybe 5 years in my area. The Roman Catholics of this area had to completely halt construction of a new, unneeded cathedral and closed half of the parishes because attendance dropped so much. I think that's a bit worse than a change over 50 years.
And in the words of Jesus: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:19
We were given the authority to make the rules, God has to follow them.
Tom, I would disagree with you. We believe that God continually reveals himself to us. That while the bible contains all that we need for salvation, it is not the end word from God. He continually sends us prophets, even today. He is active in the world and he is constantly leading us to a closer walk with him. He did not just leave us a list of things we should and shouldn't do. He wants us to grow and be better people. Episcopalians believe that supporting civil rights and equality are as much a duty as Christians serviing God as feeding the poor and visiting the sick.
differnet-9.1- Though I agree with some of what you're saying, it is these words from Jesus that gives the Pope his authority. If a protestant, it is the claim of authority for those governing bodies from synods and communions to parish and local church officials.
differnet - you should question your qualification for being a pastor. You preach from your own "wisdom" instead of preaching the Word of God. Reread the book of Hebrews, and you'll discover that God's final word was the Bible and Jesus Christ. Sure, he'll still speak with us through His Spirit when we pray, but God's absolutes do not change, and Jesus is God's final Word to us.
Richard, I'm not a pastor. I'm a lay person. But, of course, the Episcopal Church believes that all of its members belong to the eternal priesthood of God and that we should all minister and witness to others. Moreover, the Episcopal Church does a great deal of education to its members. This can lead to some very dry sermons, where history, philosophy and theology are taught. You see, this is the thing about Episcopalians, we think ALL of our members should know what we believe. In fact, most of the attendees at the General Convention are lay people and our layity have voting rights, just as the clergy do.
When did the Episcopal Church vote on the relevance of the Bible? What was the vote count when it was decided that, in these times, it is okay to rewrite The Word of God to make it more contemporary? Has The Book of Common Prayer be completely rewritten to complement the, if it feels good – do it modern scriptures? The Episcopal Church has taken another step toward a partnership with the church of scientology.
You conservative ranters don't even read the Bible. You depend on backwoods, flunked-out-of-4rd-grade "Evangelicals" to read it for you.
I think I just found my new spiritual home! Thank you Episcopal Bishops for living and modeling a Christian way of life.
Iowa Girl, if you are interested in the Episcopal Church, you may want to check out the YouTube videos by Father Matthew (search for Father Matthew presents on YouTube). And don't forget to check out the Episcopal Church's website.
Forget Jesus. Just follow the money...
Meek and mild Jesus will slay them all.
Sounds more than a bit contradictory. But then, most religious doctrines are self-contradictory and nonsensical.
To quote Sir Thomas More before the Episcopals helped chop off his head, "And it will all fall out as in a complication of diseases, that by applying a remedy to one sore, you will provoke another; and that which removes the one ill symptom produces others."
The Episcopal Church is entirely SEPERATE from the Church of England. *sigh* I know you don't really understand the difference, but the Church of England has kind of been in a snit with us for the last 40 or so years, since we started ordaining women.
Congratulations, Episcopalians. You are on the side of compassion and fairness-- God's side.
Romans 1:26-27
King James Version (KJV)
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet
Ta-deu - Paul's letter to the Romans needs to be read in context in order to understand what it is really saying. In Romans 1:21-28, Paul talks about people who refused to acknowledge and glorify God (v. 21), the worshipping of idols (v23), people who were more interested in earthly pursuits than spiritual pursuits (v.25), people who gave up their natural, innate passion for the opposite sex in search of pleasure (v. 26-27), and people who live lives full of covetousness, malice, envy, and hatred of God (v. 29-31).
Homosexuality is a natural part of human sexuality (for verification, check out the APA website). This reference is talking about heterosexual people who gave up their natural orientation to have s e x with
people of the same gender in what Paul calls, "Their search for pleasure." It is not talking about gay people whonaturally are attracted to people of the same gender.
Well, if you were to take that scripture literally, then it means that God made them Lesbian and Gay.
Who are you to defy God's will?
pmdww2 - I don't know what you've been smoking, but Romans 1:26-27 is quite clear and definitely speaking of homosexuality. Or try Timothy 1:10 (some translations say "pervert", others "homosexuals").
Yay!!! I've never been more proud to have been baptized an Episcopalian, even if I am an agnostic. Maybe it's time to give it another shot?
This is great news and I hope others follow suit.
It's something to be proud of. Congratulations.
Redhead Ranting, and be sure to try more than one parish. They all tend to have very different ways of living the message. I've been to Episcopal Churches that were a bunch of people sitting around on couches holding their mass together in a group and at others, it was full=blown ceremony including incense.
Redhead - You should seriously consider why you go to church. To worship God, or to support your social morality. A true believer would never consider themselves an agnostic. But if you want to go to church for social reasons, the Episcopalian church is the right choice. They follow what seems good to them at the time, not following God's Word.
This is a good common sense decision, A step in the right direction for fairness and equaility for all.
the bible is not about fairness its about god's law
You have made the bible your God. God is not inside a book. He is an active part of the world and is constantly revealing himself to us. The bible contains all that is necessary for salvation, but it is not the last word from God. He is here with us and is sending us prophets if we would listen to them. Biblical inerrency is the greatest herecy of all time.
Why does God have to contact me through a third person or "prophet" exactly? I never did get that.
RTypo, he's talking to you all the time. You probably aren't listening. As for the prophets, they are his teachers. The prophets often have the hard truths we don't want to hear and we tend to kill them. It's usually only after their death that we recognize them.
Name some prophets.. Any.. I'll research them and maybe gleen some wisdom.
differnet "Biblical inerrancy is the greatest herecy of all time."
That statement alone proves why he/she should not be a pastor of a church. The Bible is God's Word, and is final. If you do not believe that, you have no business leading a church. The Episcopalian Church is one of those liberal churches described in Revelation as the "lukewarm church". They do good works, but have lost their first love - Jesus Christ. God does not change with the times, and you are harming those by telling them their lifestyle is not sin.
You worship the bible and not God, Richard. That is the heresy. Woe to you who use the letter of the law to burden your brother and sister (Mark 2:3–28, 3:1–6 and 2 Corinthians 3:6).
RTypo, there are, of course, the biblical prophets, but you are talking about more modern ones. Many people in the Episcopal Church would site Martin Luther King as a modern day prophet. And many consider Ghandi a prophet of God too. I believe that others would site CS Lewis. Those are just a few examples of people within the Episcopal Church have sited as possible recent prophets of God.
Another thing you might be interested to learn is that we are in the process of sainting Thurgood Marshall, the great Supreme Court Justice. When we say saint in the Episcopal Church we are talking about a person who lived their life in such a way that they examplify a Christian value. In the case of Marshall, it was his lifelong dedication to civil rights and justice that have earned him this honor.
One more newzday tuesday ((morphine carnival) - The Bible was never meant to be read literally. It is the spiritual history of the Hebrew and early Christian communities. It is inspired by God, but it was translated by men who were influenced by the culture around them. Jesus himself did not interpret the Bible literally. Jesus interpreted scripture using reason and compassion. Using reason to understand the cultural influences in the Bible is what allows us to differentiate between cultural norms which no longer apply and spiritual truths which do. If we did not use reason when reading and interpreting Scripture, people would still use Scripture to defend slavery.
I whole heartedly disagree, so here is the truth pmdww2:
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
"I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."
Can you hear me now?
Ahh, morphine, you finally say something that makes sense.
oh i just love these debates,we christians are throwed to the lions again , all because of sin. they say oh your a judge, no but we can read , and the bible speaks against this as SIN , meaning DO NOT DO IT, god does not hate sinners but he hates the sin, if you do not like this tuff its gods rules or the lake of fire you pick where you want to go.but what if in the future some wants to marry two other people would that be ok . its nothing but lust .note to all athiests ,i don't believe in you, i believe you are god haters. now throw a fit.
p.s. bishop you are wrong.show me the bible that makes this right. you can't
r u wade - Where does the Bible condemn homosexuality?
r u, I'm guessing here but what, 8th, maybe 9th grade level education?
pmdww2 - Try starting with Romans 1:24-27.
r u--atheists don't believe there is a God. How then can they be God haters? You can't hate what you don't believe exists.
I cannot address this subject much longer as I have picked sides to the debate and am about to take confirmation into the Roman Catholic Church.
Being a widow and free to marry an opposite sex partner/spouse I decided that I will stay a widow and be consecrated to Christ instead. My life will close out like it started, single.
In the church I attend we do not accept that particular lifestyle and consider homosexuality to be sin.
However, I personally DO accept equality before the law'. Under the 14th Amendment of the U.S. So I figure people should be allowed to choose whoever they will to marry. It's just that they cannot marry in a same sex marriage in a Roman Catholic Church, are technically not allowed to take communion in one or even be baptized in the Catholic church until any one or more involved in that lifestyle consent to repent, and change their way of life.
Personally, I don't see that happening to any noticeable degree among most gays but Catholics, as a rule, will not change or shift their doctrine away from this stance anytime soon. Other then priests who have lost their way and their common sense concerning their pedophile behaviour I think this stance to be appropriate for the Catholic church.
Call Catholics names and disparge them what you will, there will be no exceptions to this for quite sometime to come..
Plenty of other churches and a couple or three Protestant denominations have little or no problem with this so...have at it...I hear that Episcopalians are working on a liturgy for same sex marriage....
I'm not a homophobe and am not anyone's judge in matters such as this...It's just that I personally cannot be involved with it. I truly do find homosexual sex to be very detrimental to me. Can't have anything to do with it, it's a personal choice and I think we all must have our freedom intact to choose one life or another.
I have gay friends and I work around a few, they are not 'bad' people per se and we get along well. I don't bother them with religious arm twisting...which almost never works anyway. They don't hustle me or make fun of me, etc.
To each his own.
If you have found a way to serve God that fills you with love and joy, then you are doing right. Each of us has to walk with our Father in our own way. Bless you and I hope that you are filled with the Holy Spirit always.
Karla - Your post is very thoughtful. As a Christian gay man, I agree that churches should not be forced to marry couples if it goes against their beliefs. Churches have always been free to marry or not marry couples as they see fit.
I thank you for supporting civil marriage for LGBT couples, and I agree the 14th amendment protects this right.
Congratulations on your upcoming initiation into the Catholic faith. I am Catholic, and while I disagree with the Church on numerous positions, it will always be my home. Take care and God bless.
You have a well thought out and good outlook on this whole gay marriage thing that's got a lot of other people all tied up in knots...
Hope you get to share your insight with others in your walk through this life...
To Karlagolay:
"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
What a bunch of hypercritical dumba$$es! You can really tell who needs money badly by the way they ignore there own religious book! Oh well, I sure hope there is a lot of gay people going to church to support your sell-out @$$es!
Gay people are much smarter than that.
Hey Rocco...seems you missed a few English classes in Appalachia High School...it's "hypocritical" not "hypercritical" and it's "I sure hope there ARE..."...not "I sure hope there is...". And you expect to be taken seriously? *rolls eyes*
OilmanMD - Well, it's quite obvious you're a smart-ass punk talking a lot a smack. I bet you if I was standing in front of you, you would be quivering like a little bitch, crying for your mommy to save your nut less butt, when I asked you to say it to my face like a man and not a bitch, right? Only a punk would correct someone's grammar or spelling in the childish manner in which you did. That's why I am giving you a verbal bitch slapping that you deserve like a child who has misbehaved.
Hey Rocco...if you're going to lecture someone about being childish then you best move out of that glass house you're living in. You sound like some grammar school playground thug. Now go stand in the corner with your dunce cap and let the big people talk ya dumb f'n neanderthal.
OilmanMD - And you still sound like a little smart-mouth punk that yelled for mommy when he ran his mouth until the playground thug asked the little beech to repeat what his sissy-@$$ said! And your response was to wet your pants!
Another church going to hell in this politically correct age. God created male and female and bade them be fruitful and multiply not be fruits and divide. You'd think Episcopalians being quasi Catholics would take a strong stance against abomination.
Another church recognizing that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality when it is put in historical and cultural context and read using reason, as Jesus did.
Say What? Since when Jesus change His mind about doing the will of His Father and keeping the commandments. Where in the world does Jesus say that? Sorry, I don't understand.
serenity-1238411 - Jesus did not interpret Scripture literally. If he did, he would have stoned the woman caught in adultery and would not have allowed his apostles to pick wheat on the Sabbath. Jesus applied Scripture using reason and compassion. Using reason to understand the cultural influences in the Bible is what allows us to differentiate between cultural norms which no longer apply and spiritual truths which do. If we did not use reason when reading and interpreting Scripture, people would still use Scripture to defend slavery.
Reason is one thing. Jesus forgave sinners but he never accepted sin. On the Sabbath, it was allowed to glean grain if one was hungry. Jesus' enemies made a thing out of it by twisting the law around. He forgave the woman cought in adultry because she was sorry for what she had done and no one condemned her. Under Jewish law, there must have been at least two witnesses against her for the stoning to be done. When Jesus asked is there anyone left to condemn her, she said 'No one Lord" Then Jesus said "Neither will I condemn thee. GO AND SIN NO MORE" The woman repented of her sin and He forgave her. Read your Bible and understand it before it's too late.
serenity-1238411 - We are likely going to have to agree to disagree. I have read and prayed over the Bible for many years, and I have come to understand that God made me gay and loves me just as I am. There are many Scripture scholars who agree that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. Some of the books supporting this include "The Children are Free", "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality", "Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality", "The Bible, Christianity, and homosexuality." Ultimately, I have to follow my conscience. Good night and God bless.
pmdww2 - "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3
Wrong pmdww2! God expects you to repent of your sin, not justify it and embrace it just becausea you have those desires! You deceive yourself just as God's word says not to:
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit will reap eternal life." (Gal.6:7-8)
With this attitute you are deceiving yourself and are sowing to the flesh by being gay, for by doing so you are sowing to the sinful nature.
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; dolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
The word there in the verse for "Sexual immorality" is "Porneia" which is where we get the English word "Porno" from. It is basically defined as:
"used a. properly, of illicit sexual intercourse in general."
In other words, any type of sexual immorality whether it be adultery, fornication, male or female prostitutes, men with men or woman with women. The word covers all types of sexual immorality. I hope that you come to your senses sometime and reliaze that you are not going to get by God living this kind of life style. No one who wilfully lives after the flesh will inherit the kingdom of God. What's more important, fulfilling the desires of your flesh in disobediance to God's word, or eternal life? Because you're not going to attain it the way your going.
Episcopalian clergy = stately homos of England
*sigh* The Episcopal Church is not part of the Church of England. Your ignorance basically releaves people from any need to entertain your remark as nothing more than rampant homophobia and religious bigotry.
Angelican, okay sigh
Well, so-called 'real' christians? What's the master plan if this so offends you?
Most of you go bleating-on about 'glorifying sin', and rejecting the teachings of God, the Bible and Jesus. Most of you also don't have a clue as to often the scriptures contradict themselves many times over, but let me get to a point and a question.
The Episcopal church is moving forward with the evolution of society and into the future sure of their ideas of reconciling faith with modernity and reality, and therefore remaining relevant and open to all peoples.
Neo-fundamentialist christians keep losing, maybe only in small and incremental steps, but they do, with the regard to their venal and seriously angry judgementalism when it comes to gay people, relationships, and their struggle for equal civil rights. The generation coming up is already majority pro-gay rights and marriage. You are not going to return to the days of this being perceived as a shameful 'sin', and most younger and many middle-age people support their gay brethren.
So, what's the plan? Are you going to stage a fundamentalist junta, and overturn our government, constitution and bill of rights in an effort to institute a well-understoof "dominionist' theocratic ruling party, and then do what?
I see either a civil war, or worse. Given the way the world runs, were right about on time for the crazy and frustrated so-called righteous to stage another civil war against their fellow humans since they are seriously on the losing side of history. If this happens, it will go into the history books as another lovely moment in time where the 'truly faithful' feel as though they are committing crimes in the name of god. Given the tantrums on here and on any news of gay advances in society, you rarely show deference, and more often, violent and angry vitriol.
We've seen this movie, and we know how it has ended in the past. Don't seem surprised that those of us who love and support our gay friends and family are now working overtime to stop you from harming another society with your resolute, yet demented theocratic worldview.
Translation = Stately homos of England
JPArch - Well said!
JPArch - The master plan for us is this. Proclaim Christ until the day He comes back. That is all. We already know we will lose this battle (the world declining deeper into sin), as the Bible is clear on that. The road to salvation is narrow, but the road that leads to destruction is wide. But we have ALREADY won the war. Christ will return, and all of us who believe and trust in Him will reign with Him forever. Those who reject Him will eventually die in their sins. During their short lifetimes, they will remain to see some very ugly days, as the Holy Spirit will also be removed, leaving the world with no restraining influence to sin. Judgement Day will soon follow ... and without Christ, those sad souls will be forever separated from God.
To One more:
No we are not going to "stage a fundamentalist junta, and overturn our government, constitution and bill of rights in an effort to institute a well-understoof "dominionist' theocratic ruling party, and then do what?"
What we are going to do, is to keep proclaiming the truth of God's word regarding this and all issues that separate men and women from God. People are free to live as they want, but the consequences are the same. Regarding this issue here, the consequences are eternal separation from God and eternity in the lake of fire. Anyone who thinks that they are going to inherit eternal life while living this life style are deceiving themselves. We who know and study the word of God and do not attempt to circumvent to satisfy our own desires, will continue to remind people that there are eternal consequence to this life style, as well as proclaim forgiveness of sins through Christ.
Also, the only thing that the Episcopal church is accomplishing by "moving forward with the evolution of society and into the future" is circumventing the word of God, by embracing sexual immorality and they will be accountable for their decision. Neither God nor his word changes to adapt to the future! This is a false teaching. All will be held accountable for ignoring his word for the sake of pleasing their flesh, which is exactly what they're doing by living a same-sex life style.
Bye carnival! Ha ha ha.
Well, the Episcopalians have shown us all that they are more intelligent and more progressive than Baptists or the Catholic Church. Look at the number of homophobes here on the vine. This decision will not effect any aspect of their lives yet they are intent on controlling the lives of others as they think they know better. How arrogant can people be. Rhetorical question!
To be more intelligent than Baptists or Catholics is no mean feat. To be more progeressive simply hark back one hundred years.
Just because someone doesn't agree with homosexuality does not make him/her a homophobe. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Homophobe is a way overused word which was started by the GLBT to make homosexuals appear as victims. Actually, people who believe homosexual sex is a sin and should never be admitted in any religious litergy because it is a sin, are the victims. These people, who believe in the Bible and the commandments of God, are very persecuted for their beliefs.
Oh yeah. I see persecuted Christians by the thousands suffering at the hands of those sinful homosexuals. You would almost think the Roman Colosseum was being rebuilt and gays were busy training lions to hear these poor persecuted Christians talk.
Oh lol. :) you are funny.
To William:
We are not controlling, only speaking the truth and warning them of the consequences for this life style.
serenity:
I believe you are correct. It's when you try to deny them civil rights that it becomes bigotry and hate. I don't agree with breeding, but I don't condemn breeders.
don:
If you are not a part of the multitude of christians trying to deny the civil rights of homosexuals, then you are not controlling. But you're still being appallingly judgmental. For instance, I don't approve of the parenting life style, yet I don't run around warning them of the consequences, nor do I condemn their decisions.
Hardly "truth," more like YOUR version of "truth". As far as consequences are concerned, everything has consequences, whether good or bad.
BTW, homosexuality is not a "lifestyle," any more than heterosexuality is a "lifestyle".