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Subscribe to RSSThe U.S. Episcopal Church became the biggest church in the United States to approve a provisional rite for blessing gay unions after its House of Deputies gave its final approval Tuesday.
The resolution passed with 78 percent approval in the lay order and 76 percent in the clergy order. The House of Deputies is made up of both clergy and lay people.
In the lay order, 86 deputations voted in favor, 19 against; five were divided. In the clergy order, 85 deputations voted in favor, 22 opposed the resolution and four were divided.
The proposed blessing liturgy was initially approved by the Church's House of Bishops Monday during the 77th General Convention in Indianapolis, with 111 votes in favor to 41 opposed and three abstentions.
Deputies of opposite views spoke in alternate succession Tuesday afternoon, with those against the proposal urging more time to consider a decision of such magnitude.
The Rev. Sharon Lewis, alternate deputy of the Diocese of Southwest Florida, said the liturgy is more than a “pastoral provision.”
"Let us move together in the heart of Christ, not turn this great big old church that I love so much on a dime,” Lewis said.
Speaking in favor of the blessings, Deputy Jenna Guy from Iowa said the resolution is important to the younger generation of Episcopalians, adding that passing the resolution would bring more people into the Church.
"It’s always with great pride that I tell [people] of the inclusive nature of this Church,” Guy said.
A deputy from Alaska added, "There is never anything wrong with celebrating love.”
The new Episcopal same-sex liturgy is called "The Witnessing and Blessing of a Lifelong Covenant."
In the proposed rite, each person would make a vow to the other, exchange rings and be declared "bound to one another in a holy covenant, as long as they both shall live." The liturgy is expected to go into effect for provisional use starting the first week of Advent -- beginning on Dec. 2, 2012 -- and will undergo a review process before the next General Convention in 2015. Congregations and clergy wishing to use the liturgy would need the permission of their bishops.
In states that currently allow same-sex civil marriage, such as Massachusetts and New York, Episcopalians may already bless same-sex marriages, but there is no formal church-wide liturgy. Commitment ceremonies for gay couples are allowed elsewhere in the church at the discretion of the local bishop.
Episcopal bishops approve resolution to bless gay unions
The Episcopal Church is an independent U.S.-based church affiliated with the worldwide Anglican Communion. The church has about 2 million members, most in the United States.
It is not the only major U.S. denomination considering same-sex marriage issues.
The United Church of Christ, a mainline Protestant denomination with about 1 million members voted in 2005 to support full civil and religious marriage equality for same-sex couples.
The U.S. Presbyterian Church on Friday narrowly rejected a proposal for a constitutional change that would redefine marriage as a union between "two people" rather than between a woman and a man. The church, with around 2 million members, currently allows ministers to bless gay unions but prohibits them from solemnizing gay civil marriages.
Reuters contributed to this report.
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apparently the literal interpretation of Scripture has been altered by Lucifer.
The gospel according to Chuck.
Episcopal = Pergamum?
Actually he is correct. The Scriptures specify clearly that homosexuality is a sin. It is the Epsicopal Church who is in error
I am especially proud to be an Episcoplalain today!
God loves those who love.
We don't do HATE in the Anglican Church!
To those who are spewing their hate over this, I doubt any of you are Episcopalians anyway. That is yourr loss.
If you're going to start citing Leviticus and Romans, parratrooper, then cite the whole thing. You can't just pick and choose the pieces you want to hurl at those you don't like. Why don't you cite all of the Biblical passages that talk about divorce; Americans seem to be pretty good at keeping *those* numbers up. If we're all damned, we're all damned; but you can't pick 8 passages out of the 1300+ in the Bible and make a case. Sorry. I think there's a book you need to go read...
The "scriptures" as interpreted how many times and by whom?
The scriptures also say not to eat shellfish or the meat of animals with cloven hooves. Time to shut down Red Lobster!
It's time for people to quit using the mythology of bronze age desert dwellers to justify their personal hatred & bigotry. There's nothing holy or righteous about that.
Frankly True how do you get hate from following Gods word. It clearly says same sex relations are wrong. No church who follows Gods word is going to condone what he clearly tells us is wrong. That has nothing to do with loving them.
Here in lies the problem with the credibility of some churches, the reason there are so many different flavors Christianity is the interpretation of the bible.
The bible was written, in my opinion (See I am not making this out to be fact) as a guide book. However the finger print of humanity are all over it and unfortunately humans a fickle flawed creatures. Who are you to say this church was not directed by god, who gives you he right to point and judge someone a sinner or judge a churches direction is wrong. How about looking after your own soul and not presume to know the mind of god.
The Episcopal Church (aka Diet Catholics) decided to accept gay marriage. Again- Protestant Church- manmade laws. Catholic Church will never accept gay marriage because it violates Natural Law- God's Law- not manmade laws. The Catholic Church is not bigoted- contrary to popular belief- it does not bend its laws to fit man- It urges man to conform to God.
"The Catholic Church is not bigoted- contrary to popular belief- it does not bend its laws to fit man- It urges man to conform to God."
So you are blaming the bigotry on God?
John Hughes Catholic and Proud:
When the catholic church stops swapping priests around after they have raped children and apologizes for the endless lies and cover-up, then they might regain a shred of credibility on this issue or ANY other.
Until that happens, the Catholic Church's opinions are worthless.
"how do you get hate from following Gods word. It clearly says same sex relations are wrong."
If "God's word" is hateful, then following it is hateful. And when "God's word" is something written by an obscure Middle eastern cult 3000 years ago, is this really surprising?
Hi Chuck, you mean the literal translation of the King James "cut and paste" version of the Bible that the "Anglicans" gave to the world? One of the reasons King James initiated this version (although he never authorized it) was to suppress the uber conservative Puritans who, as a result, mostly fled to the American shores. Passages of the two Bibles popular at the time, the Geneva and Bishop's Bibles, were in fact directly lifted and placed in the KJ version leaving only a small percentage translated directly from the original Greek and Hebrew. The original printed version went through 15 editions in the first three years and was never accepted by many of the leading theologians at the time. It took a few hundred years (1881) before the revisions were completed and the version that most of us read today. So, those of you who take the scriptures literally are in fact taking the thoughts and interpretations of other generations rather than a literal translation of the Bible. King James preferred the company of men, by the way.
I must admit, I am floored.
I didn't realize that the Evangelical, American Taliban, had an Enlightened bone in its money-worshipping body.
Truly amazing, and hesitatingly optimistic.
And then there's Never Stop Asking Questions, a religious bigot.
Organized Religion is the root of all evil.
Spirituality is a whole different issue, something that Christians know nothing about.
Why is telling the Truth; that Fairy Tales are Fairy Tales...bigoted?
Would Christians subsequently base their lives around Fairy Tales like Jack and the Beanstalk (although Jack was largely an Ayn Rand, John Galt-like opportunist)?
I'm floored, too! After all these years, a church where the whole family is welcome? It seems un-Christian... though strangely Christ-like!
Equality for ALL peoples is being ethical, respectful and 'Christian'. Blessing GLBT Unions also makes perfect business sense for the church as doing so will generate more tithing, wedding profits and overal monetary support for the church as most GLBT citizens have money and are generous. Plus, when those rich (& childless) GLBT church members die, their loving/supportive church will inherit vast Estates and monies! :)
What exactly is meant when people use the "natural law" argument against gay people? It seems
to me that if homosexual behavior has been observed and studied in over 1,500 species of animals
(humans included) that it is anything but "unnatural". This would suggest to me that religion is
what in fact is against natural law and furthermore that religion has a flawed theology pertaining to
human sexuality that has caused immense suffering in the world. What could be more unnatual and
harmful then that? Sorry scripture quoters but George Bernard Shaw once wrote the "all great truths
begin as blaspemies." My apologies for thinking for myself.
The Catholic Church is nothing but cocksucking child molesters.
Your god gets flushed in toilets around the world every day.
Heaven forbid that we should follow the OT and the NT. God is very direct about this and other subjects. Instead everyone is moving toward the world and its beliefs and Christians are being ostracized. Tolerance only applies towards Christians toward others and not others toward Christians.
And why is this surprising?? The Episcopal Church has a long history of accepting the Catholic Church's rejects. I myself am proud to be one of them! Where else is the product of a Catholic Mother and a Jewish Father supposed to get baptized????
Why don't all you ignorant a** liberals leave America if you hate it so much, and take all your Fa**ot friends with you. Its obvious that all you bastards that are talking about the bible have never read it because you know absolutely nothing about whats in it. Hey I know what lets make it legal to be a rapist and a child molester or what ever else makes all you liberals feel all warm and fuzzy since you say there is no God why do we have to have any morals at all lets just do what ever we want.
Here we go, the persecuted christian meme. Christians wave their bibles in the air claiming that gives them the right to discriminate against, bully, & spew the most hateful, vile things against their fellow humans, but the moment someone calls them out on their BS they scream "We're persecuted!" I'm really tired of hearing sanctimonious, judgemental Aholes force their mythology on us all.
3000 years ago? Christ was born only 2012 years ago. At the time that the bible was written it was about 100 years after. The original whatever it was called(church, gospel, etc) had about 300 members, that is a rather large number considering that communication was pretty difficult for them, as it was a crime for many kingdoms to be a christian, I think you need to get out of the year 500AD, or should I say 3100 AD...
@frank ummm, religion has been here since the beginning of man, homosexuality(in humans) has been around for ALOT less time than that. I think that the first recorded instance was in 2400 BC, according to wikipedia... so, what came first?
We'll seeing as how the Catholic Church has over a billion followers it's opinions obviously aren't worthless. You just don't respect them.
Yet another religious denomination is realizing that supporting equal rights for ALL Americans is the right thing to do.
As for the bigots in the world who do nothing more than spew your hatred....the wave of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness cannot be stopped. Soon enough SCOTUS (in accordance with amendment #1 and amendment #14) will rule it's unconstitutional to restrict marriage to the heterosexual community. If you prefer to live in a country where religious doctrine is the law, Iran is always looking for more citizens. Please feel free to move.
Who wrote the bible? It wasn't Jesus. It's tales of many people and has been twisted and turned over the years. Who cares who gets married? What does it matter? I feel that it's none of my business who wants to be married to each other. Who the hell is anybody to judge who gets married? It's one of those things where you need to concentrate on what is really important and quit trying to call the shots for everybody else. Usually the biggest hypocrites are yelling the loudest.
The bible is not law. If the christian god wants to force his rules on man, let him do it in person.
Again, the bible is not the law of this country. One reason we have any freedom, keeping church out of goverment.
All churches should support gay rights. They should support anything that gives people the choice to do as they will. Does not matter if they think it is a sin. Speeding is a sin when you get right down to it, they are not kicking people out for speeding.
The Bible does not state that homosexuality is a sin. Leviticus calls it an abomination. In order to meet that designation an act must violate at least 3 of the 10 commandments, at least one from each of the three groups religious, personal, social. Meaning if you steal gold from your family and go to a temple to one of the Egyptian gods then use the gold to make an offering to that god in order to have sex with a temple prostitute in the form of a teenage boy dressed like a girl then yes you have committed an abomination; 2 adult men ot 2 adult women getting married don't even come close. As far as Romans; a much better translation into modern standard American english reads; Men of Rome, stop gang-raping your teenage male slaves, it damages their soul and that's Gods property even though you may own their body.
I believe "man woman". Strickly personal. I believe same sex is sin. We are all sinners. In THIS country ... where freedom rings the LOUDEST, these people have got to be dealt with. In THIS country ... where freedom rings the LOUDEST, these people should be loved as any other neighbor. Regardless. In this country they should have the freedom to marry. I believe eventually that their numbers will never rise above any significant numbers as they are now. Individuals will make the right choices when witnessing and living dysfunction. Eventually. What are all you people so insecure about. It is here and always has been throughout history. We can not be polarized over something we are already dealing with and something EVERYONE is going to have to deal with forever. For me, it is the only rightous thing to do. Let the ignorant ba----ds marry, they're unstoppable.
Um, Frank
You mispelled Episcopalian pretty severely. Do you really belong to that church? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Derek
There is no evidence that this happened with every church or is currently the practice.
Frank-2576991
It seems to me that if homosexual behavior has been observed and studied in over 1,500 species of animals
(humans included) that it is anything but "unnatural".
Just curious, I wonder how many of those 1500 species that you are so very proud of saying that was observed performing homosexual behavior can automatically switch between male and female genders if the environment has the lesser of the two genders? If there is then the arguement about the observation of the 1500 species is null and void.
DB Akron
It's happened in more than one church and that's enough for me. The catholic church HID it's sins and crimes against humanity. A thousand good deeds do NOT atone for the damage inflicted upon another human being in the name of god.
The evangelical right is all about having the freedom to persecute others.
Actually, I guess that would describe the right in general.
@Male Christian Feminist- thank you. So few know that the KJV isn't a "literal" translation of the Bible!
However, the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT do speak out against homosexuality. Bear in mind though, they also speak out against adultery, divorce, envy, greed, ignoring the needs of the poor, etc. And yes, seafood or meat from animals with a cloven hoof are forbidden. BUT- Peter was shown by God that all "foods" are ok to be eaten, so Red Lobster is safe. Christ also said "Let he (or she (sic)) who is without sin cast the first stone. None of us is without sin. None of us!
All are worthy of God's love and forgiveness; all are the people for whom Christ died and was resurrected. Yes, even homosexuals, Catholic priests, football coaches, and unbelievers. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
I am a United Methodist minister, and many of my dearest friends are gay. Do I believe that, without repentance, they are doomed to Hell? Yes, but how do I know that Hell isn't here on earth? I don't pretend to know God's mind, I just try to live in a manner that brings Him glory and helps others to know Him.
I pray I am doing what He would have me to do, whatever that may be.
Lady Rev, maybe reading Scripture will clear your mind. Hell is not here on earth. The Kingdom of God is here and those living in His love KNOW that hell is not on earth.
John Hughes, I totally agree with your post. I am also proud to be Catholic and I know that the Church will never support gay marriage. Those of you that condemn or Church should know that ALL people are accepted, gays included. What is not accepted is living in sin and still receiving the Sacraments. Love the sinner, hate the sin, even within myself.
You just can not make up " Scripture " as you go along. Scripture is not there to be changed to anyone's opinion of right and wrong. You either live it and believe it, or you don't. When and how one person loves another of the same sex does not mean the church can just change Gods rules as they see fit.
I am neither for or against same sex marriage. It is not my right to judge anyone who wants to marry someone of the same sex. Judgment is in the hands of a higher power.
Frank-2576991:
Just because it is observed in nature makes it "natural. It does NOT make it normal - get the distinction? Using your logic if everybody steals then it is OK to steal (please don't get any ideas...)
Finally, a church doing something right...
No - it urges man to bend to the Church's impression and interpretation of their God and how they think the world works. It's just men getting other men to believe in something invented to explain the unknown. The hope is that if enough people believe in something it will become reality...highly unlikely given what tiny percentage of the universe man and his planet represent in the scheme of things. I see religion as really thinking small. Even the attributes they give their God are really small and petty; jealousy, demanding to be loved or else condemned to death forever, absolute obedience...sounds like a spoiled brat to me.
It clearly says in the bible that, tattoo's, eating pork and rabbit is a sin. And it clearly says that if sex crazed men come a knocking on your door, do not give up any men, no, give up your virgin daughter and any concubines. All those who disobey this word of GOD will burn in hell, so says the bible.
Only thing I remember in the bible about homsexual acyivities was when Jesus told the jews they would have to stop the practice so they could fill the earth or something like that. Since the jury is out on whether Jesus was a son of god and thereby god himself we cannot ake that as the word of God Lviticus has his own OPINION on the subject but that and a dime used to get you a cup of coffee. We go back to the original God created us all thing. If that is so the homosexuals are also Gods creations and should be loved and respected just like the rest of us. Right now they are being used to garner votes for one of the political parties and that is just wrong no matter what your view is on the subject. This country claims you have the right to life liberty and the persuit of happiness. I have never had on life altering experience when a gay couple married so leave them alone and take care of your own business. I salute this church for finally doing what is right in this matter.
God wrote but one book and one book only and it was in stone and his ink was fire. That book contained his ten commandments. His ten commandments were all his book contained and almost each and every one of the differant churches around the world fell short of heeding his commandments beginning with his very first law. "Thou shalt worship no God but me for I am a jealous god." "In Jesus name amen".
I did not read anything about same sex relationships in this book that God wrote other than to not commit adultery
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
-----1 John 2:16-19-----
I'm loving how all the SINNERS are the ones to say the Word of GOD is BS from men. The only reason for that is if GOD Truly Does Exist. Then Just Maybe I WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FFOR MY SINS. And as far as a church condoning gay relationships, God Says for his children there is no church hre on earth that will suit you! He has one waithing for you in Paradise! And Beware of Wolfs in Sheeps clothing. And for those Church leaders who lead people astray they make them Worse Proselytes of hell than they themselfs are. So We should love the SINNER and Not the SIN! These men have condoned the SIN and in so doing Clarify their Stand Against God. So all you sinners MOCK away, the day will come WHEN EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW before GOD! You Mockers and Scoffers are the ones Christ mentioned on the Cross when he said FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO! SO Turn from your evil ways while there is still time.
Yay for butt sex!
Oh wonderful, another contard! Tell you what, Bill, there's a country out there made just for you - North Korea. You can go there and never see a gay person, and you can worship the Dear Leader all you want. He's like God over there! Leave America to the progressives, you regressives can leave by the back door.
Gay people exist, get over it. No amount of violence, animus & fear is going to change that, it's a simple truth. They are our brothers & sisters, our sons & daughters, our family & friends. Quit dehumanizing them, quit discriminating against them, & knock off the irrational, barbaric hate. There is NOTHING godly in that.
all I know is that catholics need to keep their say to themselves. You've got priests raping boys for decades! This is far worst than homo-sexuals. Robbing young children of their childhoods. then alot grow up to offend others, its horrible that these people hides behind (and under) their robes, they should all be lined up and shot
Chuck: Literal interpretation? THOU SHALL NOT LIE WITH A MAN AS WITH A WOMAN! And the literal interpretation is? It's ok to lie to a woman, but not to a man? Does it mean that if you lie (have sex with) a woman, that you shouldn't with a man. Should all women be lesbians?
Also, isn't love and understanding better than hate and condemnation?
Couple of things here...
To those saying being gay is a sin, what happened to God making us in his own image? Would you say God is flawed then? if what you say is true, then god is all of us, we all represent god in different forms. We are all his children so how is it against his word to be how he created us?
Going back to this church, I am not a religious person, but a spiritual person. I know have more faith in humanity knowing that SOME churches are seeing that, despite what those extremists believe, love is above all. God wants us to love one another. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with people wanting to get married.
To quote a good movie...."Wuv! TRWOOO WUV!! Is what bwings us here togethar.....today"
Ahhh, The Princess Bride....so true...
Bill-2558745, you're suspended for a week for violating #1 and #5 of the Code of Honor. Don't slur fellow commenters or all gay people. Also, you can spell out words like 'ass' and 'faggot' - though it's obviously advisable not to use them this way.
Leviticus, I see. The word used for "abomination" actually more closely translates to "unclean", and is the exact same word used to describe the eating of shellfish and the touching of a woman who is on her period. It is a matter of cleanliness, and given the sanitation habits of the time is a prudent matter.
Leviticus Law, also known as the Cleanliness Code, was abolished for the Christians by Jesus' own command. It is irrelevant.
My only beef with this, is that I'm a single mom and when I tried to get my son baptized, the Episcopalian pastor (who weighed at least 250lbs) told me I was a Jezebel that surrounded herself with godless heathens.
This isn't against the entire church, but maybe they should fix their own problems first before they try to be the good guys.
I have found another denomination that isn't nearly as hypocritical as that guy was.
I do not understand why people want to be members of a religion and then NOT follow it's teachings. I am not just talking about gays, I also mean the ones who eat pork and the ones who have been married multiple times, etc. If you want to follow the bible, then do it ALL the way, and stop being hypocrites.
If you do not agree with ALL the rules of the bible, find another religion; one that accepts you as you are:-)
The episcopilian church has been headed toward destruction for quite some time now. There is a huge difference between loving and caring for a homosexual and encouraging them to continue in sin. This denomination has now become the church of satan and all God fearing Christians should be leaving. There is no such thing as a pick and choose which sin I will continiously do and even hope to see heaven. We are born as sinners and only thru the grace of God will we recieve forgiviness thru the belief and exceptance of Jesus as the Son of God, Jesus said to the woman who was a prostitute your sins are forgiven you, go and sin no more. You cannot be a Christian and live the homosexual life, the two will not mix. The word of God explicitly states in both books of the KJV that sex between the same genders is an abomination unto God and nowhere did Jesus say that the teachings of the Old Testament no longer applies, as a matter of fact he said that he came to increase these OT teachings or to expound upon them. The jews and the gentiles had taken the Word and changed it to fit their evil life even then. America is doomed, this evil sin has infiltrated so far into our society that there is no going back. God is going to and will destroy this country as he did with sodom and gomorrah. Those who believe that he is against this sin and one that I believe he abhors more than others must continue to fight the good fight so as to teach your children that this is wrong. The homosexual agenda has now infiltrated the public school system and are teaching that it is ok if your brother or sister or father or mother is a homosexual and that it is a normal thing. Stand up the true children of the Lord and speak out against this abomination is not only against God but against nature itself. The disease of aids is a God sent punishment againt this lifestyle and because of adultery in the marriage between a man and a woman it has now even spread into the heterosexual people. I will no longer ask God to bless this country but will pray for his judgement to come quickley before as the Word saids even the very devout would fall prey to eternal damnation.
Frank, do you follow man or God? Just because it fits in with man doesn't mean it fits in with God. If God says it's wrong, whom am I to question it.
Sorry previous post was for Frankly true
According to original translations and texts, god doesn't say its wrong.
allswell, so you've read the dead sea scrolls?
Most christian churches welcome all people, but it does not mean they accept the sin. This church blesses gay marriage and has openly gay priests. I don't believe there have ever been female priests either. I think is must be Satan's church. I have a right to my opinion
Yes you do, no matter how asnine it is!
Why wouldn't you?
Sin is a religious concept and one which not everyone believes in, nor does it apply to everyone.
Even if that were true, it would still be just as valid, recognized, equal, and protected in the eyes of the government and law as yours or any other religion. That must stick you in the side like a thorn, eh?
Why would anyonoe need to fear god? If you fear god, then maybe god isn't so worthy of worship.
Do you eat shellfish or pork? That's a sin too.
Speak for yourself!
Guess what? Not everyone is a christian.
Yeah, ok. (insert Twilight Zone theme here).
What exactly is the "homosexual agenda?"
Considering homosexuality has been observed in over 1500 species in nature, I'd say it's more natural than you think.
AIDS was first introduced by a heterosexual. But don't let facts get in the way of your hateful ignorance. Besides, your rant is just getting nonsensical now!
Considering you want everyone to suffer damnationspeaks volumes about you!
Personally? No. I study the writings of more intelligent men than I who have far greater experience in language and biblical history.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html
Above is a very interesting and in depth study of the Torah and Dead Sea Scrolls by a Rabbi. Something of great interest that is noted is the requirement that every male, regardless of sexuality, is commanded to marry a woman and reproduce. That would make homosexuality (and celibacy) social sins, as neither procreates. But they were not god-condemned and the requirement not god-commanded beyond a rather strict interpretation of the phrase "be fruitful and multiply".
Quote as many verses as you like to support what is ultimately a personal opinion. The fact is that every religious text is essentially a work of fiction. Take stock in the scripture it if you want, but you are wasting your time. God may exist, but don't hold your breath for an accurate list of what He wants.
Jesus didn't write the Bible. A bunch of dudes who didn't even attend his sermons or were even alive at the time did. Mohammed didn't talk to God either. He got stoned, locked himself in a room and wrote a bunch of crap down. And Joseph Smith.... well.... is the last dude to get away with speaking on behalf of God and starting a major denomination from it successfully. If someone attempted this today it would not have the massive following that Christianity or Islam does because the age of free flowing information prevents us from being so gullible... or it should anyway.
Think about it. These were all just prophets who essentially carried similar messages about how to live righteously. And fantastic, miraculous stories about their super powers are nothing more than typical mythology. Because in ancient times that is what made you worship the messenger.... make them a demi-God. Jesus is Christianity's Hercules.
The truth is that clerics used these stories to pander their own beliefs to society. If you even try to go further than simply reading the Bible you could try to do a bit of research on the socioeconomic status in those points in history. How else do you convince people to eat what you want them to, pay what you want them to, think how you want them to and especially mate how you want them to? You back it up with a claim of religious value!!! Tell them it will put them in God's favor. Because for the most part that is what motivated people in those times. It does now too for some folks, but not nearly to the same degree...
You have to consider the number of gospels that were written and the amount of time that passed from the crucifixion to the First Council of Nicaea, which was about 300 years, plus the amount of translations these canonized gospels have gone through over 2000 years and it is unrealistic to believe that zero manipulation occurred during this whole process.
Anyone who isn't taking the scriptures with a grain of salt is only fooling themselves. So why believe your opinion is absolute? It's just naive!
The hard truth is that we may never truly know what God wants. Those words you keep quoting are not proof of anything, so why waste time in your short life trying to exclude people and label them as an abomination? Focus your time on things that are actually important vs. the 2 homos down the street that make you feel "icky"!
So, you're still a jezebel who consorts with heathens and you just found someone who won't hurt your feelings about it?
As an atheist, I find it hilarious that people "shop around" their religion until they find one that doesn't make them change a damn thing about themselves.
Fear makes you do many things. If it is because of fear, what truly do you believe.
LOL! Anyone that has ever had sex before or outside of marriage, masturbated, watched porn, or gotten a divorce has already followed Lucifer's alteration of Scripture. And please - no denials; you only dig the hole deeper when you claim it's not as big a sin to have sex before marriage or to masturbate. It's going to be mighty crowded in hell.
I have turned away from evil by rejecting the bible and religion.
For all of those who have rejected the bible and the teachings of God I can only wish you well when you cross over. I wonder if that famous atheist changed her mind upon her death. None of us remember the other side and for those who are so sure there is no God I wonder why you KNOW so much more than the rest of us. If we all turn to worm food then you were right, but it will be far different if we are right in our beliefs.
The good news is that if we become worm food then we won't have to hear you say I told you so.
Dear Atheists:
I never claimed to be perfect and for sure I am a sinner. The difference is that I know when I do something wrong and I don't try to convince God or other people that what I have done is NOT a sin. That would be the difference between gays trying to change everyone's morals as God's laws should change because they want them to and me asking for forgiveness.
No one is trying to change your morals, PatriotJane; in order to do that, you'd have to get some morals.
I'm an atheist and I know when I do something wrong too. Except I actually admit my error and attempt to correct it rather than appeal to some imaginary being in the sky.
God's laws do not make up or override our laws and not everyone believes in your god, nor are they required to.
Intimidation tactics and threats from your cosmic boogeyman is hardly persuasive or convincing.
By all means, prove there's a god! Or do you believe simply out of fear?
A Pascal's Wager is a flawed and illogical argument.
Won't really matter. We'll be worm chow.
Click here for the full, Biblical foundation for gay unions:
http://waltuu.newsvine.com/_news/2012/06/14/12216600-god-and-gay-marriage-what-the-bible-really-says-about-marriage-equality
In a nutshell: The Bible doesn't say anything that prohibits same-sex marriage. That's just something that self-righteous humans made up to rationalize their homophobia or intolerance.
As a cradel Episcopalian who really loves our church there is one point I want to make.Why are some of us not seeing what is the outcome of this inovation in the long run.Apart from the fact that same sex couples have been members as long as I can remember and no one seemed to mind.The future minstry and social outreach of our church is going to take a direct hit by this.Most Episcopalians marry in our church bringing their partner into the church,these famlies support the church and help it grow in numbers and influence in the social task of the ministry.Our once standing room only Sunday services are past history as are our bursting at the seams Sunday school classes.People opposed to the this avant garde regime have been run off yes run off,chased out of our Church where we received our baptism,holy communion,confirmation marige and last rites.Millions have been spent or should we say wasted in court litgations to keep properity instead of using it to feed and clothe and house the victims of the present state of masses of Americans now in need.The House of Bishops is willing to sacrifice a million or so members to their own fate Iam shocked beyond words.Iam staying put regardless of the fact that we now have to change our weekends to attend the early morning services shorn of hymns and incense to pray as we always have to avoid the monkey see monkey do 11am hootnanny blue plate special service.I wil never discriminate aganist another member because of the way God made them or show them the least disrespect.But rest assured you will never get another red cent from me again until I see the Episcopal Church back on tract !
Same thing I ask every other christian:
What are you going to do if you're the one who is wrong?
LOL. Religions.
First they say it's against "gods" will. Then they become smarter than their "god", and change the rules. LOL.
Who is 'they' exactly?
What the Bible says:
(Leviticus
18:22) 22 “‘And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.
and to show the Bible is in complete agreement, from the "New Testament" aka the Christian Greek Scriptures: {1st Corinthians 6:9, 10) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.
So, the question is, why are the milking down God's Word and agreeing to do this?? Because they fear man more than God.
Deb: do you eat shellfish or the meat from animals with cloven hooves? Because that's in there too...
deb, it may be all about FEAR to you, but to most people religion is about compassion and love and fairness. If we are enslaved by the least-charitable literal interpretation of a 3000 year old book, why even bother having a brain or a heart?
Puck: "THEY" are a small group of really strange people with a huge giant computer in a cave in Arkansas. Such as ..."they said"; "they saw", etc.
Deb, ask yourself what kind of a god demands that you fear him & hate others.
deb-282212
Come on Deb care to answer, after all it is you who threw the gauntlet down, the books you have quoted on have some other rather heavy laws, do you follow them? Would you kill your children if they cursed at you as you are instructed?
SacredFire do you know that in the New testament they ate chicken and in the Old Testament they were told not to eat dirty animals which the chicken was considered to be. They also sacrificed animal in the Old Testament to make atonement for their sins to God. They don't do that in the New Testament. If you're going to pick out something at least read the entire bible to understand it. Same sex relations is referred to in both books and in both it is wrong. In revelations they are even referred to as dogs.
Krestow it is you who should read both books to understand what each book means. If you are a true believer then you do your best to live by it. We are not perfect and we all sin but we don't keep repeating the same sin over and over if we truly want to one day be with Christ. You repent for sins and leave that lifestyle behind, you don't keep living it. No church that believes Gods word is going to condone what he says is wrong. We are to love them but we are not to condone what they do.
I must admit, I am floored.
I didn't realize that the Evangelical, American Taliban, had an Enlightened bone in its money-worshipping body.
Truly amazing, and hesitatingly optimistic.
Krestov and SacredFire: Hope you're not waiting for an answer from deb-282212. The bigots never...NEVER...can answer what you're asking. That's where the conversation ends, always. They're awfully big on the passages that support their bigotry, but on the ones that would cause them personal inconvenience, not so much.
SacredFire: Thats old testament law and it was "lifted" in the new testement.
There you go! As long as they do it standing it's OK!
Since the younger generation is far more supportive of gay marriage and LGBT rights overall, this will end up being a non-issue in the near future. In the end, the only thing that matters is people treating others with dignity. You don't need dogma or a belief in some deity to understand that.
Swan37
That cracked me up. Standing, sitting, hand stand - it's all good.
Deb isn't answering because she made the comment and moved on with her life. Unlike many of you she doesn't keep coming back to the same old forum responding to comments. She probably has things to do.
Deb and all the others quoting Leviticus...any of you have tattoos? Leviticus 19:28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord."
Leviticus 19:19 also prohibits sowing more than one kind of seed in a field or wearing clothing made from more than one type of fabric...any of you ever grow more than one kind of plant in the same yard or wear Cotton/Polyester or other blended fabrics?
See, this is called "cherry picking", when you carefully select one item to justify your position from a whole group of other items that you ignore because they would also condemn you. Or, we can just call it by what it actually is...hypocrisy and a cynical attempt to justify bigotry and discrimination through religion - again.
See, much of this same type of argument was used to try to prevent inter-racial marriage, as well as the fight for civil rights for minorities, voting for women and a whole host of things throughout history. As with this case, there were some religious groups who were on one side - and condemned the groups who were on the other side. It's a powerful example of why we can't let religions make the laws, since we would then be at the mercy of whichever religion was in power.
Of course, most Christians think it would be great for religion to make the laws...because they live in a country where Christianity is the largest religion...even if it's splintered into multiple groups who can't agree on lots of stuff. If you were a Christian living in most of the Middle East, Africa or Asia - I doubt you'd be so enthused about having the local dominant religion making the laws. Same thing if you are NOT a Christian and living in this country.
Instead of being angry about not being allowed to make everyone else live by your personal interpretation of your personal religion - you should be thankful for the fact that nobody else is allowed to impose that type of tyranny on you.
Believe what you want...but your personal beliefs don't supercede other people's rights. Get over it.
Medina if you new anything about the bible which it is obvious that you don't you would know that the scriptures that you are quoting is old jewish law from the old testament and that when Jesus died on the cross the old laws where finished and that we now live in the new testament and live by faith not works, now go look up the definition of faith because I don't have time to fully educate you here but before you start quoting scripture to justify your point of view it would help if you new what the hell you where talking about.
On the subject of Leviticus, what was his stand on deep-fried calamari?
Bill-2558745
So, when the King James version was written, did that also replace every other bible prior to the 1600's? Do we get to have a new version in 10 or 15 years? Seems to me, the bible has been written and re written by the ruling party in power at the time to control the masses. Enjoy your religious beliefs as guaranteed by the first amendment. However, those religious beliefs are NOT and never WILL be the secular laws of the United States of America as also guaranteed by the first amendment.
P.S. Allow me to educate you.... God is not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution.
Frank-2576991
It seems to me that if homosexual behavior has been observed and studied in over 1,500 species of animals
(humans included) that it is anything but "unnatural".
Just curious, I wonder how many of those 1500 species that you are so very proud of saying that was observed performing homosexual behavior can automatically switch between male and female genders if the environment has the lesser of the two genders? If there is then the arguement about the observation of the 1500 species is null and void.
To all the sheep repeating the tired old line that Old Testament laws are no longer in effect (even though that doesn't stop you from quoting them), OK fine. I'll take at face value that you actually believe that the Old Testament isn't the Word of God(TM), because how could it apply then, but not now when Jesus himself said that he didn't come to abolish the old laws.
But if that's true, why the hell are you opining about the dastardliness of other people's sex lives, yet never uttering a word about divorce? Most churches will remarry someone if they've divorced, though some are actually consistent and don't. Jesus never said a word about homosexuality (it was Paul who had that particular obsession), but he did have a lot of condemnation for those who divorce. Where's your outrage?!?
They know that they're on the losing end. This is an attempt to compromise before the Supreme Court gives the churches a whipping.
There are too many Scriptures, both OT and NT, to quote in this short space re the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuality is no worse, or better, than any other sin (adultery, divorce, stealing, murder, etc.). What makes this decision by the Episcopalians so tragic is that it is an attempt to make something that is wrong appear to be alright. Jesus told the woman taken in adultery that He does not condemn her, but then He also told her to go and sin no more, i.e., leave behind her sinful lifestyle. That is the danger of Christians accepting the practice of homosexuality, not that it is necessarily worse than other sins, but that there are those who would say it is no sin at all. The writer who talked about Paul's 'obsession' apparently does not appreciate that Paul wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit who Jesus promised would guide believers in all truth. Yes, the church does accept sinners, since we all have sinned all fall short of the glory of God, but the thing about accepting God's gracious forgiveness is that we must demonstrate our appreciation for that forgiveness by trying, through God's Holy Spirit, to live lives that are morally upright.
The only species I've read to have a homosexual or adult child sexual relationship was a species of Penquins as observed by an explorer who wrote so in his journal, but did not reported the observation publicly.
There is a book published in 2007 by four scientists that allege 1500 species practice homosexuality. This flies in the face of the following scientist.
The reason the behavior goes away in animals is there are extremely few animals that except such advances.
You just can not make up " Scripture " as you go along. Scripture is not there to be changed to anyone's opinion of right and wrong. You either live it and believe it, or you don't. When and how one person loves another of the same sex does not mean the church can just change Gods rules as they see fit.
I am neither for or against same sex marriage. It is not my right to judge anyone who wants to marry someone of the same sex. Judgment is in the hands of a higher power.
Most of you guys sound truly pathetic. Cherry picking? That is what you are doing when you cherry pick verses out of the old testament that no longer are in effect in order to try and show why you dont like Christianity, or why you think it is wrong. Also, you are taking today's moral standards and placing them upon ancient society of a different culture completely. You think it was stupid not to eat pork back then? If so, you obviously ride the short bus. You have no understanding of the Bible, or of the spirit of God. Christianity is not a religion. Not in its true form. It is acknowledgement of God and his gift to mankind and giving reverence and honor to God. It is about truth and reality. It is not to fear God in the way that you think of fear, it is to revere and deeply respect God. That is the fear of God, that is the beginning of wisdom.
Others of you talk about animals having gay sex, so that means it is natural. Let me ask you this. If a man wanted to marry his male dog, many would say that the dog cannot give consent, but one could argue that the dog tries to hump his masters leg. That qualifies as consent. You may say, "The dog doesn't really know what he's doing, dogs just hump anything, it is not consent." Okay, so if a dog will hump anything and doesn't know what he is doing, how can a dog, who is smarter than many other so called "Gay Animals" be considered to be acting in any sort of gay manner? Animals dont get to be gay, they just hump on things and would just as easily hump a tree. This is not proof of gayness being natural. Animals aren't consciously being gay. There are no gay animals. If you say that same sex intercourse happens in nature from time to time, i would agree, but aren't we humans above animals? Are you really condoning such a base carnality in humans? If so, you should marry your dog, or help fight for those who wish to. As long as the animals wants to have intercourse with the other and has humped on their leg at least once. Pathetic argument to equate gayness with animals. You are merely saying that Gay people are like animals in their sexuality, unable to control it and unable to understand natures construct enough to embrace it.
And to whoever says that the Bible has been re-written too many times, go back to school and stop believing everything idiots tell you! The different translations of the bible are not very different. You have the Old and New testament and the differences in the translations ore things like; One translation says the word 'You' and the other says 'Thou.' One says 'Went here' the other says 'Walked here.' Read and compare them all. We still have the direct Greek and Hebrew translations where the words are side by side in Greek and then English. Word for word you can look at the translations directly from the Greek and Hebrew and you can match them up with the king James, the NIV, the American standard or whatever one you want. I guarantee you that the meaning has not changed. Even the so called lost books are available to read and those books do not add to or take away from what was kept at all. They are books that were either un-verifyable, or proposed nothing in light of what was already there. I know for a fact that you haven't taken the time to actually study these things. If you did, you would not speak what you speak. You could not. i guarantee you that those who do the translations are honest men who work extremely diligently to get their important work done right. They are certainly way more honest than someone like you who spouts ignorance as if it is fact when you know that you haven't studied such things and are just jumping on the christian bashing bandwagon.
Face it people. Carnality is sinful. Homosexual sex, drunkenness, heterosexual fornication, lying, stealing, murdering etc, etc, etc... It is not by goodness or wisdom that people do these things. You will receive within yourselves the due consequences for your actions. Everyone will even if you don't believe in God, or don't believe it is wrong. You cannot escape the truth.
darthfrodo maybe the supreme court will whip religions, but God will whip all who disobey him.
also, thank you Deb for your comments. those who disagree with you, i feel sorry for them. they do not know God if they don't follow his commandments. God says no to gay unions and marriages. we love gay people, but not their sins.
For some reason, this comment was deleted.
I attempted to resurrect it.
Unfortunately, the rest was deleted.
Organized Religion is the root of all evil. Spirituality is a whole different issue, somethsing that Christians know nothing about. Why is telling the Truth; that Fairy Tales are Fairy Tales...bigoted? Would Christians subsequently base their lives around Fairy Tales like Jack and the Beanstalk (al …
Why does the Reichwing hate critical thinking, confrontation, and debate?
Boy just think I live in the same country with some of these nuts. I will still put my trust in the Bible and when I take that last breath and if I was wrong then it does not matter. If i was right then I have every thing to gain and you have every thing to lose. I believe in Gods laws and the Bible tells me there is a Heaven and a Hell and I am sure I do not want to go to Hell with a lot of you people. Sit down and think if you can or you have the mind to do it with. I ASK THE QUESTION CAN YOU GAMBLE WITH THE ODDS?????
It clearly says in the bible that, tattoo's, eating pork and rabbit is a sin. And it clearly says that if sex crazed men come a knocking on your door, do not give up any men, no, give up your virgin daughter and any concubines. All those who disobey this word of GOD will burn in hell, so says the bible.
So, Bill, do you eat pork or shellfish? Do you wear clothing made of two different types of material? Do you shave? Do you eat meat and dairy at the same time? Then according to a very literal interpretation of the Bible you are unclean and will burn in hell. I am an Episcopalian and am very happy with what my church has done.
The way I see the Bible is no more than God's historical record - a reference book, rather than a book of law. He gave us free will - if he truly wanted us to serve him and be under his heel and boot and punish those who sin, he would've done things much differently.
God knew the consequences of giving a race free will - and one that has THAT much power. If he didn't step in, I would not say he doesn't love us, but I would say he might have other issues to deal with (remember, the Earth is NOT the center of the universe).
Since the Bible itself has had no additions to it by any "divine prophet" we can truly say that the Bible's in its final version. But I believe we should exercise discretion and common sense when interpreting the Bible.
God also hasn't done @!$%# as far as intervening in the lives of those who believe in him and yet die anyways. If he has to tear families apart and offers no explanation to the loved ones of the deceased, you have to wonder if he even cares at all.
We call that swooping and pooping.
You post something and scamper off. Never defending what you typed.
Arizona Tumbleweed
LOL. Religions.
It's all about the money. They see this as a money making venture, and money is their true God.
From every one of the previous posts I see arguing about the bible.. This is why I do not believe in religion. First, you have two bibles... one doesn't say or leaves out what the other has written. Then, You gotta know that the first bible was written a couple hundred years after Jesus death. Ok, now we have people who weren't even alive writing what Jesus said. You people don't even know what most of that book means because it is written in such a way that it is interpretation that changes what is understood.
For me, I will believe in God, not some proffet that was portrayed in a book. And if you think that Jesus was gods "only" begotten son, you are on drugs. There is very good scientific evidence that Jesus was just a man and that he even had a family (a wife and child).
Let everyone learn to celebrate love and compassion, not sling regurgitated mythology at each other.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
-----1 John 2:16-19-----
I had an aunt who was one of the least judgemental people on the planet, and a GOOD Christian as well. But, she wasn't perfect. Nobody is. But, there's something in the Bible about removing the big object from your own eye, before trying to remove the speck from somebody else's eye. I mean live it before you question somebody else's life choices. Having homosexual tendencies is part of nature, and therefore it's not a choice. The choice is whether you act on them or not. As for the endtime, I'll believe it's here when there is some actual evidence. There were wars, and rumours of war throughout the history of man. When I was a small boy, people were saying that the end of the world was upon us. I'm 56. Get a new routine, or just shut your piehole.
For all you liberals who keep quoting the books of Leviticus as what Christians should ultimately follow( such as eating pork, shrimp, tattoos,) , let me remind you that if those laws were still in effect there would be no need for Jesus to die on the Cross for the sin of mankind. We would still be trying to keep a bunch of rules in order to please God. Afterall, isn't that why Christ came to Earth in the first place? Because we couldn't keep ALL THOSE LAWS?
I can see the Episcopalian church is following in the footsteps of another known cult in the US known as United Church of Christ; in which there are some things very wrong with their theology.
DOCTRINAL SUMMARY OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
Any atheist would not know the difference which is pretty obvious on this site.....
After reading all these posts up to this point, I've not found one statement referring to what I believe is happening - simply, the younger generation is leaving the churches at an alarming rate. The churches are trying to find a way to get them back. The younger generation believes that homosexuality is okay. The churches are trying to get the people back by allowing homosexuality into their church. They'll have to cut out a few pages from the Bible, but that's okay, since churches are big business.
The Old Testament and the New Testament say the same thing - homosexuality is a no - no. Period. If a gay person comes into a church, declares his desires to be a sin, and works to correct it, he/she should be accepted by every church. Same as every sinner, of which we all are. But if a church says it's no longer a sin, it is going against what the Bible teaches, and in my opinion, will cause the church's collapse.
As another poster, the Bible gives me hope and direction to Heaven. Without the Bible nothing is offered me, so I'm going with the winner. We're only going to know for sure once we die. That's too late to change your mind. So, live your life the way you want to, and let me live my life the way I want, and we'll talk about it on the other side.
@Mark,
People love quoting Matthew 7, but forget about Matthew 5. There's also something about: If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
@Spicy,
Ask yourself a question, where did God say to hate anyone? You won't find a scriptural reference for that, it's mainly homosexuals who think anything that doesn't agree with them being gay is hate. Since when has God been inclusive? That's the question they should be asking themselves. Also, since gays aren't statistically, exclusively, monogamous in relationships, how do they figure this is a "lifelong" commitment?
The fact that you conveniently overlooked is that sexual orientation is inborn and immutable. Nobody chooses to be gay, they are just born with it. As we saw in the Civil Rights Movement, it is wrong to discriminate against people because of how they were born.
it is debatable as to weather people are born Gay. Scientifically it has NOT been shown, proven or demonstrated. What is not a question is that there is a propensity toward attraction to the same sex. A propensity toward over drinking does not mean that one should over drink. It may mean that they should never drink because it is unhealthy for them.
Millions have died from Aids caused by gay sex. Many from irresponsible strait sex. Wholesome things do not end in death. Aids in these cases is the direct consequence of immorality. No buts about it. When we engage in certain behaviors we may have extreme consequences. Sin comes from the Greek, it means (roughly) "To miss the mark" the term was used in archery to describe missing the bullseye. In context of morality, sin means a similar thing. It means to fall short of the ideal morality. The ideal being perfection. Good is the absence of bad. Nothing with even the slightest bad in it can actually be categorized as good. It must by virtue of the word good, fall into the bad category. Everything that is "bad" or sin, has attached to itself a certain set of effects that it will have on the lives of the people involved. Anytime you are involved in anything other than the Ideal/Good morality, you expose yourself to negative consequences, and you also can expose an entire society to negative consequences. If you follow the bibles model concerning sexual relationships, you will not have negative consequences and society will likewise be healthy. The Bible contains the Ideal and God must hold us to that in truth wisdom and love.
We all have a propensity toward desiring sex, but that does not mean that indulging our sexual appetites is healthy, safe, kind, spiritual, or God/ Truth honoring.
We must love our fellow man enough to stand up against sexual immorality. The divorce rate, unwed mothers, homosexuality and promiscuous sexual lifestyles have devastated our culture in the past 50 years especially. Millions have died from aids and abortion alone. Crime has skyrocketed, the family unit that is so vastly important to a society is crumbling around us.
Love your friends enough to tell them to go and sin no more!
Sacredfire said:
"Deb: do you eat shellfish or the meat from animals with cloven hooves? Because that's in there too"
It is obvious that you have not studied the word of God because of the statement above. You are speaking about the food law, that is, food that was deemed as unclean under the Law of Moses. News flash! When Christ came he fulfilled the law perfectly and it was nailed to the cross as fulfilled. We are under a new covenant, the covenant of salvation by grace through faith in his blood and not by works and this not of our own doing, it is the gift of God, so that no one can boast or take credit for salvation by their works. We are 2000 years removed from the law and are under the covenant of grace through faith.
That means the forgiveness of sins and eternal life cannot be obtained by observing feasts, holy days, abstaining form specific foods, Sabbath's and the like. In fact, anyone who seeks after salvation by observing the law have been alienated from Christ and have wandered away from the truth. The reason for this is that, when a person is counting on his/her own efforts, the focus is put on thier own works for salvation instead of on Christs sacrifice. Here is what the word of God has to say in regard to abservance of the Law of Moses:
"Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law."
"You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality."
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
So, all of you who that don't study the word of God, please stop quoting Scriptures that you nothing about. Thos who are in Christ are under a faith covenant through his blood and we are not under the Law of Moses. We follow Christ and are led by the Spirit, not by the Laws given to Israel. For the law could never save anyone. Salvation has always been through faith. The Law was put into place to show us how far below God's righteous standards we are and it was never ment to save anyone.
For Mans Heart continually does evil, and if GOD does not end This Corrupt World when he does NO ONE WILL BE LEFT WORTH SAVING! REPENT and TURN from your evil ways.
@ Deb. The Bible verse you quoted, in addition to 'men who lie with men', also mentions 'greedy persons'.
So, here's my question: why do you conservatives always support greedy big business when your holy book includes such people in the same list as gay people? The entire republican platform is based on the premise that greed is a virtue. How can republicans support that while regarding it as 'destable' for two men to marry each other?
to ItIsWhat!t!s: I agree, I don't believe God demands that his followers hate others. That's was my point. So why do SO MANY people hate, discriminate & judge others & justify it with their interpretation of divine law? Saying that gays deserve no equal rights, scorn & all the vitrol one can muster, & in the same breathe also claiming not to hate is contradictory at best, evil at worse.
Isn't it funny how everyone's god hates all the same people they do.
I am Episcopalian and I went to Catholic grade school and HS. I had a Franciscan Brother asmy religion teacher my sophomore year. I questioned everything he taught us and thought he hated me for it. The end of the school year he told me that he enjoyed having me in class because I did question his teachings. He also told me something that made me look at Religion in a whole new light. This Franciscan Brother says "The bible is a book of faith, NOT facts."
Hey Unhappy:
The UNITED Church of Christ and the Church of Christ are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT denominations. Get your facts straight. Also, if you are going to post about a denomination's doctrine, why not get it directly from their website instead of citing what is clearly someone else's propaganda.
So many posters with their heads screwed on backwards or any direction they chose to be their 'normal'. Ah well.
Don,
First off if Christians don't like the OT being quoted back to them perhaps they should stop using it as justifications for their hate. Just a thought. As that hasn't happened yet I'm afraid they will continue receiving the rebuke of your holy book.
Second while I realize Christians enjoy cherry picking their religious texts there is some danger in it for you. First its yet another contradiction. God we are told within the sacred text is: "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow." Yet suddenly he has taken to wild changes in how things should be handled. Eating shell fish = abomination, then suddenly shell fish is totally cool. Those people who did it before and ended up in the "grave" cut off from the comforts of Abraham's Bosom? Oops sorry about that.
Then we have Jesus himself. Now Jesus specifically says that none of the Law is to be done away with "not one jot, or one tittle" yet after his death Peter and Paul suddenly get visions and dreams that he was just kidding about all of that and now its totally fine to ignore the law. Heck Paul goes so far as to say its alright to have food dedicated to a Pagan god just so long as it you don't make it a problem to other believers. Hard to see how the god of the OT would be cool with that. I mean this is the deity that so feared the influence of paganism to his people that he commanded all women, children and livestock to be slaughtered when Israel went to war.
So first decide if the OT can be used to justify a position (and stick with it).
Second, decide how it you can use a book to justify a position when it seemingly bounces all over the place in terms of what is expected.
Just a thought- hey catholics-guess why the church doesn't want women to have access to birth control would be because think of all the new (boys) victims that would be born into this world for them to molest.
Unhappy, there is a difference between the UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST and the CHURCH OF CHRIST. One is a liberal, mainline denomination, the other is a conservative, evangelical denomination. You obviously have no idea what you talking about.
Junicon - I am a republican that happens to be pro-choice, Episcopalian, pro-gay rights, etc. I believe in the welfare system when used properly and not abused. What this country needs is more moderate voters and less extremists on each party side.
It is all about treating people fairly, kindly, and justly in all we do. Why should I be able to legally marry the opposite sex; when my son is unable to marry the man he loves? Kindness and consideration, fairness and just behavior towards all people will go a long way towards making the world a peaceful place to live.
It always amazes me that people all the time quote things from the bible-- a book written by a bunch of men. No, the guy in the sky did not write it. Then they quote Jesus "Jesus said". Who recorded what he said? You can't quote someone as saying something unless what you said is a word-for-word quote. Which they aren't.
Yes, I used to be a church goer, a good gal. I'm still a good person-- in how I live my life and the volunteering I do. Not for the church I attend or how often I read that book written by men.
medina? banned, rereg of banned user izmee.
@Seewhat I mean 188 - This discussion is about the Episcopal church, not the Catholic church. If you want to bash Catholics, find a forum that is actually ABOUT Catholics.
I fail to see how a conversation about the Episcopal church's compassionate and Christ-like decision to bless same gender couples equates in your mind to Catholic priests who have abandoned their morals by robbing children of their childhood. Child molestation is a tragic atrocity that has been happening in every walk of life for thousands of years. Is is NOT a problem strictly limited to Catholic priests, despite the media's sensationalism of the sad topic.
Toasty:
Please provide the information that you have discovered that supports your claim that being gay is not a choive - anyone? anyone? Bueller?
http://www.livescience.com/7056-mom-genetics-produce-gay-sons.html
Just one of hundreds of studies that support the possibility. It has neither been proven nor disproven.
Happy,
The best evidence is those of us who are actually strait know we didn't chose to be. We just are. If you had to chose to be strait guess what? You're not strait. Its your business either way, but honestly anyone who isn't confused about their sexuality knows that orientation is innate.
unhappy,
you make me unhappy. I hope the book of revelation comes and takes you away, cause I have had enough of ignorance and foolishness. You will never learn, you will never adapt. You are the same who said the earth was flat, and that the earth was the center of the universe. Next time i see a 7 headed dragon, I will send him your way.
If that's so, why do christians keep quoting Leviticus and why do that want to have the Ten Commandments posted in Court Houses?
I was taught that in our pre mortal existance there was a huge war in heaven and Lucifer and 1/3 of the people were cast off and 2/3 of us choice to follow Jesus. We all have free agency. We choose between right and wrong every day. In the last days it is my understanding that about 1/3 of the inhabitants of the earth will be evil. I believe that homosexuality is a sinl (will find out after I die and so will you) and the churches that choose to cater to the wishes of people so they can increase their congregations would not be churches of God, but of Satan. We can argue until the end of time, but it will do no good. There are those of us that believe homosexuality is a perversion and those of you that do not. The one thing that is true is that we should love the person, but not the sin.
Course, your beliefs ignore the fact that the original text of the bible never condemned homosexuality outside the cleanliness code of Leviticus, which does not apply to Christians.
Huzzah!!! It's a great day for the Episcopal Church and for equality!!
Never, they are Episcopalian, not Evangelical. BIG difference.
What a sick denomination. If you are born again you should run from those so-called churches and never return. God will not be mocked. Ever hear the term "I never knew you"?
Religion is religion is religion.
And, Epicopalians are Evangelical.
Never, if you keep saying that Episcopalians are evangelists, they most definitely will not let you join the country club. You are an atheist and that is fine. But a duck is not a chicken. That's all.
Never Stop Asking Questions
Yea! A queer is a queer. Period. They ruined the word Gay. People used to be happy and gay. The only happy queer I ever knew was one with D76K in his mouth or up his A$$. Now they are making a mockery of marriage
It is a great day for all believers for now we know where a good portion of the apostasy dwells.
It clearly says in the bible that, tattoo's, eating pork and rabbit is a sin. And it clearly says that if sex crazed men come a knocking on your door, do not give up any men, no, give up your virgin daughter and any concubines. All those who disobey this word of GOD will burn in hell, so says the bible.
Never, you need a basic education. There is a BIG difference between an evangelical and an Episcopalian. Your saying they are the same thing only demonstrates your ignorance. That would be like saying that a German and an Italian are the same thing or a biologist and a geologist are the same thing. All you are doing is broadcasting your bigotry and your ignorance.
So the over 50% divorce rate among heterosexuals is OK? Or perhaps the spousal abuse among heterosexuals is fine?
Heterosexuals had sullied that institution a long long time ago.
So NY Mike. If the institution of marriage is sullied, then it is ok to sully it further? Two wrongs make a right then?
Ever see the movie "Invasion Of The Body Snatchers"?
That movie is a great analogy of what has happened.
Over time, those with a liberal, pro-homosexual
political bias infiltrated the Episcopal Church, systematically
taking over positions of authority, until they had the
numbers to take over! And so we are left with today an
institution that is a Christian church in name only, having
abandoned the teachings of Christ and His Apostles
regarding the sinfullness of homosexuality. We should not
be surprised, because these actions were foretold by
the writers of both the Old and New Testaments...
---------------------------------------------------------------
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
-----1 John 2:16-19-----
DanZ: Ever actually read the bible? I could tell you to look at Acts Ch. 10 and 11, but we all know you won't read it.
It is just the liberal left once again perpetrating a lie over and over so that more people become indoctrinated.
Who gives a sh** about the episcopal church or what they agree or disagree with??? Just shows what idiots they are!!!
A true idiot claims he/she knows what's best & all others don't.
Hey Unhappy,
The UNITED Church of Christ and the Church of Christ are two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT denominations. Try to get your facts straight before posting.
Vince actually Episcopalians/Anglicans are largely evangelical. There are exceptions of course such as the Anglo-Catholics. Now if your a really low church Baptist or Assemblies of God it may be hard to fathom since your worship style is different than a fixed liturgy. However Episcopalians do historically fall under that heading (at least partially). Indeed most of today's evangelical denominations can trace their origin to the Episcopal/Anglican communions (Baptists, Methodists etc.).
All being Evangelical means is that biblical authority is held in high esteem, active evangelization is practiced, and acceptance of the concept of personal conversion. All of which have a strong presence and history within the Episcopal/Anglican communion especially after the Wesley's.
Seta banned, bad history, never rehabbed.
unhappy,
I was raised a roman catholic I read the damn bible. i see the false hoods the lies, the ignorance. I woke up, when will you.
I can't wait for you to tell God you read the DAMN bible. In case you didn't know the bible is not the property of the Catholic church.
In case you didn't know, PatriotJane, the bible never condemns homosexuality outside the cleanliness code of Leviticus, in the original texts and languages.
Good Job!
Jesus blessed the gay centurion and his lover, from Matthew 8:5-13 & Luke 7:1-10,
Severus of Antioch, in the sixth century, explained that "we should not separate in speech [St.Serge and St.Bacchus] who were joined in life, in the definitive 10th century Greek account of their lives.
The U.S. Episcopal Church is recognizing a centuries long tradition.
How do you explain Sodom & Gomorrah. Was that just a mistake that God made, or was He really discussed with their filth?
No, that was an ancient Jewish allegory that the elders used to try and influence "their" people to live more moral lives, as determined by them, the elders.
James, you done bumped your head, NOWHERE in those verses does it say ANYTHING about a gay centurion!. The man had a servant which was common in those days, not a gay lover. Get it right.
Dave, if you're going to go with old testament stories, how do we explain snakes that talk, bushes that spontaneously burst into flame, holy spirits that kill only first born male children, and all the incest, rape and murder that seem to be sanctioned by God?
I'm sure he was discussed, Dave. I'm sure he sat down with all sorts of people and discussed Sodom and Gomorrah. They might have even had a few drinks around a table, maybe had some munchies, and totally just discussed the whole situation.
Discussed. LOL
You know what dude? You are out of your mind. Jesus doesn't ever condone lust at all EVER. And all those who have not accepted his pardon of Salvation are burning in their lusts. That includes justifying your sin by your sick interpretation of scripture.I am a sinner saved by grace. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father interceding for me. I confess my sin before Him. I do not justify my sin EVER. That is the horrible shortcoming of the rapid movement of these sin groups. They deceive themselves by taking God's word out of context to justify their sins.
Dearest James, How in God's name you gather that the centurion was gay and his servant also, is a miracle of misguided understanding! George Washington had many servants whom he loved dearly. Human love and gay lust are very different things.
James
I have multiple translations and several commentaries. NONE support this relationship to be Homosexual. Being you reference a greek account (not reliable) and it is long after the first Apostles had left this earth, I would put no stake in it.
I church history after the death of John, the church fell even further into attack from all sorts of groups made their own alterations for to suit their own purposes.
As I posted earlier Episcopal church = pergamum?
The story of the centurion in Matthew 8 and Luke 7 tells of the centurion's concern for his ailing servant and seeks out Jesus to heal that servant. Only by addition, invention or imagination could any association with the gay lifestyle be drawn from that text. When we approach the Bible with the view of standing above it then such conclusions as the article reports are unavoidable. But when we allow the Bible to teach us and enlighten us and give it the authority it truly has then many a misguided, confused and destructive notions will be cleared away. Bad theology hurts people.
They are stories, my friends. We take what we wish from them, and hopefully we grow. Or we enslave ourselves to words written by a 3000 year old Middle eastern cult.
Sounds to me like someone needs to get laid...
I'm sorry, but I just both passages and it says NOTHING about sexual orientation/relationships. All it says is that the centurion asked Christ to heal his servant that had fallen ill, and Christ did. Just because they use the words "dear to him" doesn't mean they were in a committed sexual relationship. I have many "dear" friends of the same sex and I'm not physically attracted to them at all.
You've taken the vagueness of this story and filled in parts that don't exist to try to support your personal views. There are several passages in the Bible, in the Old and New Testament, that clearly explain that homosexual relations are an abomination before God. With that said, so is fornication, adultery, lying, stealing, worshiping idols, killing, jealousy/coveting, dishonoring our elders, and taking the Lord's name in vain. No one in this life is perfect. We are all sinners, therefore we shouldn't hate or shun those who sin. We should be trying to better ourselves and try to align our will with God's. We should not advocate sin just because it has become politically incorrect to do so. You don't have to accept the sin in order to love the sinner.
I agree 100 percent.
DB Akron,
Wait, the Greeks aren't reliable? But the Bible was translated into Greek from the Hebrew, itself from the Aramaic, and then into Latin, followed by German, French, English, etc. ...then it was "updated" a few times...
And the "Greeks" aren't reliable...
Gee, my versions of the Bible don't talk about the centurion's servant being his lover in either of the passages you cited. Is there a gay version of the Bible that I haven't heard about?
Mommyof3activekids
PS and so is judging others and pointing out their "sin". So shhhhhhhhh. :)
Also stop being so mean spirited, I hear what you are saying but as a sinner stop pointing it out in others and presume you know what is right and what is wrong, simply it is not your right nor your place. Your words can hurt and show very little love and kindness.
Just read mathew 8: 5-13 and luke 7:1-10 and didnt read anything that said that about the centurion. Just saying. Since when does tradition mean it should be right? Jesus said cast the first stone, was that not changing tradition of stoning people. They were all sinners like us as well.
Who is to say Jesus wasn't gay to begin with, Since people don't seem to want to admit he may have sex with Mary, rember how hard the first Christians churches & Bible writers worked so hard to protray her as a harlet. Thirty three year old male virgins in days of old, unlikely if they had the equipment.
Mark 10:7, Jesus says that marriage is between a man and woman.
Homosexuals and their supporters have no need of facts to qualify their perverted positions. One utters a foolish lie and rest cheers them on. They'll be cheering and agreeing out of the other side of their mouths in eternity.
Oh, Dave, how virtuous of you to condemn the rest of us to hell. How it could be worse than what human beings can do to each other is beyond me, but I'm sure you have an informed response. Any photos?
Ryan,
It was the Jews who wrote the new testament in Greek. Not the Greeks. Some of the Greeks were pretty resistant to Christianity and worked to spoil it through confusion and compromise. You read Paul's letters enough, you can get the full gist of the problem.
Tom, what they are insinuating is that the young man was actually a catamite (young man kept for sexual relations) for the Centurian. Just people trying to bend things to agree them, that's all.
You are saying that these verses somehow show Jesus condoning homosexuality? Whatever planet you are on, don't go back. You will die there. Stay and learn from those more learned than you.
7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
James-1634879, because of people like you, who take it upon themselves to make their own interpretations of scripture, is why we have this U.S. Episcopal Church story today. I don't believe Jesus would have said, "Let's vote on it, if you agree it's not a sin I'm sure our Father will be okay with that."
Fact : Jesus NEVER mentions homosexuality once. Fact: Jesus mentions hatred, hypocrisy,and judgmentalness many times. Fact: Jesus commands us to love our neighbors as ourselves. He also didn't put qualifications on who is considered a neighbor. Just look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaritans where dispised by the Jews much like homosexuals are by the evangelicals today. Given all of this, I have no doubt where Jesus would line up on this issue. I am an Episcopalian and am very happy with what my church did. As for Sodom and Gomorrah, please show me the passage where it says that God destroyed those cities for consentual homosexual behavior between adults. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for failing to show hospitality to strangers and for over-indulgence while not caring for the poor. "'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." Ezekiel 16:49 (NIV).
Mike, you said,
How very humble of you. I guess you missed that day in Sunday School when they taught James 4:6 "But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: 'God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.'"
Actually, I did some research on this and this is a valid interpretation, but a contraversial one. When the centurian asks Jesus to heal his "servant" the Greek word for "servant" used in both the Matthew and Luke account is "pais." This word can mean "servant" as we understand it today, but it can also mean a younger homosexual lover. Older gay men would sometimes take young men or teenagers as lovers and refer to them as their "pais." While I'm not 100% convinced that this is what was meant, James does have a valid point. If so many of you evangelicals would look beyond your own bigotry and do a bit of research, you will see that the Bible is not as black and white as you claim it is, and there is room for multiple interpretations. I'm very happy to be an Episcopalian and think what my Church did today is great!
The irony here, is that some would have had something not all that different to say wrt emporer Constantine's recorded "conversion" to Christianity, along with the influence he, and certain church councils had on the developing religion, vs some of what came before. But then many of the debates, extending to Origen of Alexandria, the then church councils vs the gnostics, and other matters are a bit beyond the scope of the article here. Not everything was necessarily always exactly as it had got passed onto future generations leading up to the present however. The discoveries, such as those at Nag Humadi had also demonstrated that there was more then one side to the story, back as the church which had been passed down to us was being developed.... Other manuscripts (and earlier translations of the canonized books which weren't always in complete agreement among themselves as to what was printed there) which has given archaeologists more to consider in recent years, starting with just how the process of settinng the canon was, and how things were decided as they were.
Whatever was however, I for one wouldn't suggest that the Greeks had to have hidden motives, while at the same time consiering Rome to have been beyond reproach from the days of Constantine, onward....
IT'S OBVIOUS THAT JAMES IS GAY! Only a gay person would get that understanding from that verse.
James, as fascinating as your version is, I think you've taken poetic license a bit too far.
What I'm getting from this discussion is that the interpretations and translations that support a given position (whichever one that is) are the 'true' ones, and the ones that contradict the desired position on the subject are 'suspect'. Am I following? Hasn't it occurred to everyone yet that ALL the translations and interpretations are subject to the 'spin doctors' of the period that the translation dates to? And as such, ALL are suspect?
No, merely describes what a man and woman do in marriage. It does not restrict it to only a man and woman.
Nothing in the bible condemns homosexuality per the original texts and translations.
Again, Jesus NEVER mentions homosexuality. If it were so important, don't you think he would have made a statement about it in the Gospels? However, Jesus did mentions hating other and judging other - and it was pretty clear how he felt about those.
I would love to talk to anyone that was a witness to what all is being discussed. were you there 3000 years ago? I don't think so , It's all hearsay
Pedestrian-in-SF, not on-topic, violation of the first rule on the site:
You're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
It is one thing to say you don't believe in the teachings of Christ AND his disciples as a homosexual. I can accept that and maybe even respect it, however, it's an entirely different thing to say that Christ was homosexual and/or that neither HE nor His disciples condoned or ever even touched the topic.
DKJ, VINCE and ALLSWELL...you are entitled to your own opinion but NOT your own facts. Same goes with Episcopalians.
Firstly, not one of you can prove to me that Jesus Christ was NOT the God of the Old Testament. God destroyed cities and entire races due to sexual perversions such as homosexuality. He has never commanded that people engage in homosexuality for any reason. Besides that, I won't even mention the plethora of OT scriptures...let's just stick with the New Testament (KJV): Romans 1, (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Timothy 1:9–10, Matthew 19:12, Acts 8 and the list goes on. These were doctrines taught be Jesus's closest disciples!
The very fact that you would even suggest that homosexuality was condoned or even endorsed by Jesus of Nazareth completely disqualifies your credibility to even discuss this issue. Your claims here simply violate the common sense/common history test.
I can destroy your interpretation of every single one of those verses, and have multiple times across this and other threads.
But it is painfully obvious that to do so would be to cast pearls amongst swine.
CaballeroKid, as you said, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The FACT is that Jesus never once mentions homosexuality in the Gospels. If it were that important you would think he would mention it at least once. The FACT is the same Old Testament passages that prohibit homosexual behavior also prohibit eating pork and shellfish, wearing clothing made of two different fabrics, doing any kind of labor on the Sabbath, men trimming their beards, men cutting the hair on the sides of their heads, women going to church during their monthly cycles, two different types of crops being planted in the same field, meat and dairy being served at the same table, tattoos, and a whole host of other things that most Christians don't question today. Are you keeping all of those laws with the same zeal and venom that you are bashing homosexuals? Does God approve of your hatred and bigotry? Are you the judge of others or did he tell you, "Do not judge or you too will be judged"? Didn't he say, "Treat others the way you want them to treat you"? Why do you ignore the words of Christ in order to justify your own hatred and bigotry of others? The Bible in both the Old and New Testaments teaches how slaves are to treated and how they are to interact with their masters. Are you in favor of slavery? It's in the Bible. You said Jesus would never condone homosexuality. Well, we can't say for sure because he never mentions it. However, we can say for certain that he would not condone hatred, prejudice, and judging others. Those are the FACTS about Jesus that we know. His views on homosexuality are speculative at best. I am an Episcopalian and think what my Church did is awesome.
It doesn't surprise me that the Episcopal and the United Church of Christ have adopted and approved Homosexual Marriages. Both church's have Abandoned their calling years ago. They have gone to the liberal side and sought out approval from the liberal left side with all their anti- Godliness. But that's ok. For God has a plan for those who have fallen back and refused to stand up for Jesus.
It's called the judgement seat of Christ.
Oh Dave, and when did she last reveal to you her plan?
ty Dave are we friends ? ? ?
Dave is Gods Own Messenger I guess.
Who are you to speak for God?
Seems to me that the Episcopalians are doing exactly what Christ would have wished- shining their light upon all men, leading by example, loving unconditionally, judging not.
Pedestrian
Christ in his revelation to John, took the conditions of the church very seriously in his letters to the 7 churches of Asia Minor. He singled out Pergamum because of it's sexual immorality and it being "the seat of Satan". Interesting how sexual immorality (fornication) and the seat of Satan are in the same spot.
It is quite funny that those who either don't believe or know Gods word is somehow capable of telling us what to believe. Pedestrian you are right. Christ does tell us to love as we are all sinners. But nowhere can you point out that a church is to condone what God says is wrong. Tell me how you get hate out of something when someone doesn't believe as you. As much as you would like to distort our minds some of us are very clear on what the bible tells us. We don't hate, we just aren't going to condone something that is wrong. We are all sinners. The difference comes in when the sinner knows they are to repent. God will forgive if you ask. The other sinner never repents and feels he is doing nothing wrong even though God says it is wrong. God gives us the free will to choose on our own and our decisions in life will determine what our judgement will be. We can't make you believe.
TC, I spent quite a few formative years in the Baptist Church, being threatened, frightened and cajoled by the stories of hell-fire and brimstone if I didn't behave in exactly the way the "children of god" thought I should. I saw more hypocritical, judgmental, backstabbing, dishonest and cruel treatment of people by the members of the congregation than I'd believed was possible. At some point, I realized that it was all bull@!$%# - the stye was cast from my eye, so to speak. It was then that I started researching religions, their history, their similarities and differences. My conclusion is that your God, like every other diety down through the ages, is a fairy tale and religion is used to manipulate and control the masses - the church from earliest times was a mechanism to extract wealth for a few from the pockets of many, it was used to inspire armies, it was used to nation-build, it was an excuse for genocide many times over. It's a political, money-making machine, nothing more. There is no devil in my ear, there is no old white man in the clouds spying on me and sitting in judgement, there are no mansions, no lakes of fire, no pearly gates, no pitchforks. It's up to me to decide how I want to live and how I want to treat others, not because I fear the consequences, but because it's the right, humane way to live.
Don't be too hard on 'christians' who spew bible passages and religious stories - they've been brainwashed as very young children: by their parents, grandparents and then all the religious fairy tales were reinforced in bible school & church sermons. To control people and their pocketbooks, donations and sweat-labor (to build bigger and more churches to get more $$$), churches want people to have fear and superstitious beliefs. Churches don't want people to think for themselves or question why things happen (or don't happen). The first version of 'the bible' was created long ago (before scientific explainations) when people used 'gods' to justify hate, slavery, killing and a male patriarch. 'Churches' are a Pyramid business and 'members' are made to think they're part of a 'family' so they donate $$$'s and do sweat labor and spread the word (missionary work) to help make their 'family' grow. Pretty nice business concept and the CEO's (Pastors, Priests) just have to do a Sunday Dog-n-Pony Show for weak-minded people who need to hear happy things!
Consumer
Did you have a heavy Bible fall off a shelf and hit you on the head?
Superstition is usually associated with witchcraft, you really don't know what you are talking about here.
Poor they are at their hypnosis. They are fortuneate to get 2%, not the 10% they preach, and it is more fun for a pastor to get a root canal than to ask for money.
This was priceless too. I've been through several denominations. The only time they build a bigger church is when are close to reaching or have passed the seating limit on the Sunday morning Service or have to offer multiple services to house the followers they have.
I'm sorry you have obviously been forced to attend somewhere you didn't want to as a kid. But give your parents a break. They got nothing for dragging you there and probably couldn't afford a baby sitter either.
DB Akron.....................I pay taxes.....................I am in the 33% tax bracket.............What was the original purpose of tithing? To support the elderly ( Social Socurity), orphans ( government supported), to assist the needy ( Medicare and welfare).......the list goes on and on! If I contribute 10% to the church that now places me at 43% of my income......................and there is always a "love offering" about 2-3% a year so the preacher can go on "real" vacation ( he has worked so hard!!!!) or the building fund, and again.....................the list goes on and on.
Now didn't the catholic church just purchase the Crystal Catheral from the Scheulers for 54 million cash........and where did the Scheulers get the money to build it...............Hmmmmmmmmmmm..............the list does indeed go on and on.
I am a Christain and I believe in God BUT the God I worship doesn't wait for me to screw up so he can cast me in the fires of Hell. It is sad but churches have scared people so long with fear that the leaders can get away with anything by saying when they get caught - " It was not me . NO, I was controlled by Satan. " When did they get the strength to reject Satan? After they were caught!!
Pedestrian, your story of how horrible the baptist church was to you was a lie and you know it. If I had a dime for everyone who spewed that story I would be rich. You are judging them by the immature mind that you had back then, and you are reading into their actions in a major way, if their actions were actually even remotely wrong. What you probably weren't telling us is that you might have been a drug addict then or living in some other destructive way and the church was attempting to help you, but rather than accept the reality of your errors, you called them hypocrites and ran off bad mouthing them out of your deep seated shame.... Give me a break...
Yeah, poor you who suffered receiving food when hungry, clothing when cold, instruction when you were astray and love when you only hated. Keep whining.
And consumer. I was never brainwashed. God revealed himself to me in a vision of heaven. I stood in the midst of his glory and power and several of his glorified ones. Some have been indoctrinated to their benefit, others of us carry the message out of experience. Talk to the hand buddy.
Martin Luther King said; " I have been to the mountaintop! Mine eyes have seen the Glory!" He wasn't joking either. I hear and recognize the spirit within him when I watch the recordings of him speak. He was one of the ones who experienced God. Do you want to call that great man an indoctrinated fool? A stupid sheep?
Gosh, Mike - do you think we're all telling the same story for fun? Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. I was hardly a drug addict seeking handouts - I was a young adult who had grown up in the church, attended their private school because my parents thought it would be a better education. It was an education all right - I did everything they told me, I prayed, I witnessed, I knocked on doors and spread the word that sinners would burn while we lucky few sneered down at them from the footstool of a vengeful god. I watched how they treated people outside their narrow world, I watched how they berated other kids, and I finally understood. If they couldn't break you, they would do their best to keep you away from the flock. If you asked the wrong questions, you were influenced by satan. Their emphasis wasn't on education and it wasn't on helping the sick, the old, the poor or the lost. It was on control - women should be subservient, whites were superior, spare the rod, tithe, tithe, tithe, blah, blah, blah. They were nuts, and so are you.
Dave, what gives you the right to speak for God? I'm an Episcopalian and am very happy with what my church did. I am also a Christian and follow Christ. The fact is Jesus never once mentions homosexuality, but he does call us to love one another. He also commands us not to judge one another. Before you try to remove the speck of sawdust from someone else's eye, remove the plank of wood from your own. Does that sound familiar?
I have been to churches also that had some backbiting (stabbing) power plays, cliquey crap and the like going on. I found that churches are filled with people and these people are from every walk of life and are there in church for a myriad of reasons. Sometimes these reasons do not involve worshiping God. I have seen pastors act as unbelievers, teaching false doctrines and being cold to the needy. I have seen all of these things. i have also seen love, met some wonderful people who i love dearly, had fellowship with honest hard working people who would give me the shirt off their back if i needed it. I have prayed there, worshiped there, sang there, played music there, gotten jobs there, been fed clothed and loved even when I was unloving.
You say that the church is why you stopped believing in God. No way. That may be your justification, but it is not the reason. All churches are imperfect because they deal with imperfect people. If I ever find a perfect church, I won't go there because I will screw it up.
Dealing with God and the existential questions of your heart as a young man is a rite of passage. Either you give up and conclude no God and hopelessness, or God intervenes so that you embrace the innate knowledge that there must be more to life than suffering and death, that there must be meaning and purpose, that there simply has to be life after death. Maybe someday you will be given the gift of spiritual re-birth into the light and become aware of the presence of God.
You can keep pointing out the flaws of Christians, use my harsh words in my previous posts as example if you want, but that does not make God any less real, or the fact that we are all flawed human beings any less substantiated by the Bible. In fact, it could be said that your experience proved the bible rather than contradicted it.
JulianDD: You are obviously not a "cheerful giver". I hope you don't think you can get to God by just doing "good works", right?
As for those other corrupt preachers, you should have been aware that not every one who claims to be a messenger from God, is one.
I find it funny that you hold superstition and witchcraft to a different standard than your own fairy tales you preach.
Here's a clue - you sound/look just as silly
well here in the south I see alot of preachers driving pimped out cadi's and lincolns, I don't see them using the money for children the old, or to improve their community! It's all about them-and just like the catholics they also have abused children in the church, but it's grown teenagers (girls) not 5 year old boys, most of the young women are consenting, but still under age, southern baptist
Carter(4 yrs)-1 trillion / Reagan(8yrs) - 1.6T / Bush Sr(4yrs)- 1.5T / Clinton(8 yrs-1.5T
Bush Jr (8 yrs)-4T / OBAMA 3 yrs- 5 trillion ($16077.17/citizen/yr with 311 million citizens) A family of 4 gets $64K/yr for 3 yrs to pay their mortgage, student loan + food. - SAD! isn't it?
Yes it is sad :( ... but it's their own fault .. that's what you get when you elect republicans :(.
Just wondering though ... Can you read? Did you go to school .. ever? Do you know this article has absolutely nothing to do with Carter Reagan etc ... It's NOT about politics .. it's about faith.
All churches are a crime against humanity. All they want is your $$$$ Anyone who buys into a mythical person (God) and gives money to the church are dumb morons. I really don't carry if a church approves of anything, because at the end of the day they are just a church; people who are brain washed and retarded. Most raised retardedly by retarded parents. So they don't know better. My Grandma tried this crap on me and I said NO! Concentrate more on living on EARTH, and less on heaven or hell. I can write a stupid book, and say god inspired me to write it, but I would be deemed crazy, so why do you stupid people believe in this stupid book, that was written by men who were supposedly inspired by a God? C'mon people. Don't be stupid. Believe in what you can see with your own two eyes. Not some false belief that you force yourself to believe in. So all you suppressed little kiddies out there, go ahead and masturbate. It is good for you. Eat all you want! Drink all you want. And you even more freaky Episcopolic weirdos who don't celebrate anything, go ahead and celebrate your Birthday and whatever other holiday you want. Its your right!!! Don't let some stupid church or parent tell you you can't. You only live ONCE! If you are lucky, your energy may reincarnate into something else, but you will not remember this life. Your memory will be erased. SCIENCE tells us this. Not God!. Have a wonderful day all you moron christians, stupid Muslims and cheap ass jews! I hope there is another holocaust and it wipes out ALL religious people, so that only the smart people are left. And if that woukld happen, there wouldn't be much War because most wars are do to conflicting religions! THere would be peace on Earth. Now that's something I can believe in.
Bringit, this post is the reason know one takes you seriously. You start off by name calling which is something you should have outgrown in Middle School. But then again it sounds like you may still be there.
Its not our place to judge people. Let gays marry, god will judge them in the afterlife. If you hate on gays, god will also judge you for your hatred!
Well, except God will judge the nation-- I don't hate gays. I have a friend who just celebrated 20 years with his, uh, husband-- they love each other. They're raising a daughter. I've loved him since high school-- I just don't believe the definition of marriage should be altered....
jt4ya, He will also judge you for the bonehead idea that gay is ok by Him.
Really bama? Maybe you should worry about yourself. I don't see how you are affected.
And what exactly is the 'definition of marriage', Marla? A 50+ percent divorce rate and loads of kids who have had their lives turned upside down by parents that wanted a tax break? Puh-lease.
That's some god you've got there. Judging millions for the actions of a few who have decided to be themselves as they were born to be.
jt4yu
If you know someone is doing something wrong don't you realize that if you say nothing, you also condone it? If you condone it, doesn't it make you a participant in it?
DB Akron,
In that case, by trying to force your personal beliefs on an entire group of people you haven't even met and restricting them from a voluntary association, you are doing something wrong.
I don't follow your church, so why on Earth should I have to live by your church's rules?
Marla-3071717
You say you love him.. but yet you won't let the definition of marriage apply to him fairly/equally? That's not love..... love is equality...
the definition of marriage DOES apply to him fairly and equally-- he is free to marry a woman just like any other man. And you're wrong about love-- love is many things....
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
love is not equality. I love him, but he is living what I believe scripture clearly teaches is a sinful lifestyle. It's God's place to judge him, not mine. I'm simply calling sin that which scripture calls sin. Man says love is equality-- those aren't God's words, Time.
I can't see why you people get your panties in a wade over other people who want to get married. Seriously, are they making you marry someone of the same sex? NO? Then why are you so bothered? You gotta be honest with yourself about why it really bothers you. Maybe you are a closet homo/lesbian? Perhaps your jealous? If not, then let them get married and stop your belly aching about it.
Boy you're full of gems today arent you?
I know banks continue to use derivatives and shady lending practices in screwing over people even though they have been identified as a major contributor to the economic collapse of 08. Does that mean I condone it? You have some of the most disjointed logic I have ever seen.
Marla-3071717
That is conditional love. Meaning, if he wants to marry someone, in your eyes, it has to be a woman only. If someone extended the same kind of love to you, would that be real love or conditional love?
When I love someone, I don't have any conditions, I love them for who they are and respect their rights/beliefs even if they do not agree w/my own.
Marla, you can't say I love someone but they don't deserve the same rights I enjoy or that they only are allowed to love the people I approve of. That is hate, not love. There is no justification for bigotry.
BIGOT - A person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. ~Merriam Webster Dictionary
Time-- it's not conditional love-- it's biblical love. Jesus himself said, "He that obeys me is he that loves me." THAT'S conditional love. Now, of course, everyone will say, "Jesus never said...blah, blah, blah" while of course forgetting that Jesus = God-- "I and the Father are one" and elsewhere in scripture, which if you believe as I do that they're the words of God, homosexuality is forbidden.
Bluto-- your views, with all due respect, are colored by your own intolerance. I don't hate these people. I don't hate Bob, my friend. I'd just prefer to keep the standard, "biblical" definition of marriage. I'd like to continue to raise my children in a nation where these things are not deliberately skewed to cater to a specific group who wants them skewed to fit their lifestyle.
My love for my friend is the biblical love I mentioned above...it is patient, it is kind.... I personally can't abide his lifestyle, and have a hard time looking at his pictures....but he was a friend that I cared about years ago, and still do.
obviously, this issue is moot to discuss and debate-- both sides are firmly galvanized in their position. My hope is always that people can discuss and disagree with civility and manners.
How upsetting this is for all of you. A denomination, THAT YOU DON'T BELONG TO, has made a decision to change their OWN liturgy and it causes you so much pain. Here's an idea, worry about the "log in your own eye."
Marla-3071717
Agreed. I do respect you and your opinions even if I don't agree with them. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs as its part of being an American and freedom of religion. I just do not agree that those beliefs are over the secular laws of the United States. Marriage can and will become available to all americans regardless of their sexual orientation. However, it doesn't mean anyone has to like it or respect it. Hopefully though, people will practice another religious value of tolerance.
You are absolutely right, differnet. I am an Episcopalian and I am very happy about what MY church has done. If you are not an Episcopalian, then this really doesn't concern you. Why don't you worry about yourselves and let us worry about ourselves. This is ultimately not about you who would judge us.
Marla, how fortunate your gay "friend" is that you're willing to tolerate his existence while denying him equal rights. You're no friend of his. Love is unconditional, your bigoted version of it is not.
Bluto-- say it enough times, it must be true...I guess. Whatever.
Time-- I agree-- marriage at some point will most likely be redefined. It will be what it will be. I am against abortion, yet it is legal. It is what it is. I don't protest in front of clinics, or chain myself to cars. This issue will be the same. I hope and pray that the traditional view will be upheld....if it isn't, oh well.
And Vince-- your view that no one should care what goes on inside the denomination is short-sighted if it affects society-- which same-sex marriage does. I don't doubt there are good people inside the church-- however, they are misguided scripturally if they sanction something forbidden in the scripture they profess to be their truth.
Marla, I have determined that there is no way that we can change homosexual behaviour with arguments, they will do anything to justify their behaviour. I will not argue with them as I know it will do not good. I will ask them to not to indoctrinate my children who I raise to believe that this lifestyle is wrong into believeing it is acceptable. I will allow God to judge them as long as they do this. When my children reach the age of reasoning as to what they will accept as right from wrong it will be their choice. Sexual orientation should never be taught in school, they are there to learn reading, writing and arithmatic, nothing more. I will fight these people to the death if necessary to stop them from spreading their lie to the children. There is one thing about Christianity that is good and that is the freedom to choose if you believe. Christianity is not forced on anyone. I will never understand why the black people are so quick to embrace islam, as this government religion has murdered more black people than any other religion and it continues even today. The arab muslim's today in Africa are commiting genocide against black African people every day, and it does not matter if the black people in African are muslim, they still murder them. The black people in America do nothing to support their ancestors in Africa against the arab muslims.
Show us how, other than to make it better, and makes us better humans for being inclusive. Same-sex marriage causes no harm to anyone.
Sounds like you confuse behavior with orientation, like so many bigots do.
No one's children are being "indoctrinated" into anything; you cannot catch "teh gay". Furthermore, homosexuality is no more a "lifestyle" than heterosexuality is. And homosexuality IS perfectly acceptable -- to rational and intelligent people, who realize that the bible does not make our laws in this secular nation, and who understand that homosexuals and gay marriage do not harm or affect the rest of us in any way.
Unfortunately, people like you force our school systems to teach tolerance and anti-bullying strategies, since you and your ilk seem determined to lie to children about these things.
Yet you seem to find it perfectly acceptable for YOU to do so.
WRONG. You and your kind are determined to force your so-called "Christianity" -- which is, in reality, nothing more than christo-bigotry -- on the rest of us.
Erin, I believe, obviously as a Christian, that it harms society by sanctioning something that is clearly forbidden. It confuses something that nature pretty well established-- a woman's body is for a man-- children being taught that it's okay to have two moms, or two dads.
Obviously, my viewpoint is Christian based-- I believe there are other fiscal harms-- companies being forced to pay benefits. But quite honestly, someone smarter than me would have to take up that issue.
Yet not everyone who lives in society is a Christian, nor does everyone (whether Christian or not) believe as you do. So why should everyone have to live according to your beliefs?
"Nature" has also "pretty well established" that homosexuality has been documented in approximately 1,500 animal species (besides humans) -- so the "woman's body is for a man" bull@!$%# is just that. Furthermore, homosexuals have existed in approximately the same percentage of the population since humankind has existed, so women's bodies have NOT always been "for" men.
Why shouldn't they be taught that, when it IS ok to have two moms or two dads? The major medical and scientific organizations have spoken out in support of same-sex parenting rather emphatically.
Since homosexuals work and pay taxes just like the rest of us, why is that wrong?
why would it be wrong for them to collect spousal benefits? Well, 'cause they're not spouses.
And as many studies that one can point to to validate the "benefits" of children being raised in a same-sex parent household, could no doubt be refuted by an equal number of studies from the opposing camp. Anyone can find any study to bolster their position. The abortion/breast cancer debate is a great example-- "this" side says abortion has no link to breast cancer-- "that" side says of course abortion increases the breast cancer risk. So pointing to medical and scientific organizations to bolster anything is silly, in my opinion.
I have a friend who is raising a daughter with his husband of 20 years. The young lady, nearly 10, has her uncombed hair hanging in her eyes, and wears oversized t-shirts and boys shorts. Who is going to teach this girl to become a woman? How to dress like one? How to do her hair? She is not a boy. She shouldn't be forced to dress like one. Mommy is supposed to teach her. I have a 10yo daughter. I do her hair every day. She is learning from me how to dress and behave like a lady. It's how it's supposed to be, Erin.
Finally-- let me just say, Erin-- I'm not forcing anyone to adhere to my beliefs. I'm simply engaging in conversation here. As a Christian, I fear for our nation because it is falling so far away from anything remotely pleasing to the God I know from scripture. I can't force anyone to see it, to fear it. I have one vote, so I cast it for the persons whom I believe will uphold the values upon which our nation was founded and thrived.
At the end of the day, it is God who will judge all of us. If laws change, I roll with the punches. I continue to teach my children that same-sex marriage is wrong in the same vein that I teach them abortion is the murder of a child. They will understand, as they do now, that man has fallen away from the laws of God, and these things are now legal. However, what's legal isn't always what's right. It's legal for a judge to grant custody of a child who'd been with his adoptive parents for over four years to his "real" parents who got back together and decided they wanted their child back. It was legal. It wasn't right.
To me, this will be no different. Having said that, I am not a Westboro Baptist church supporter, nor do I support anyone in these forums or anywhere else who spews venom towards gays "in the name of Christ." I can disagree with you, and live in peace with you.
You seem to think the laws of this country should reflect them, and thus force them on the rest of us.
YOU believe that, but that doesn't make it true.
And it is people like YOU who force those of us who work in education to undo the damage caused by such misinformation and lies.
Then it is you who force your beliefs. It isn't your place "in education" to push your values on anyone's children. You are why I home school, quite frankly. What gives you the right to push your beliefs on anyone's children? And who are you to decide what is misinformation? Someone has a biblical view they teach their children, and the almighty Erin is to decide they're lies, and "undo" what a parent teaches? I love your honesty, though-- however shameless your stance may be.
You are the one who wants laws to change to force your beliefs on people. People like me simply want the current laws to stay-- the laws that were a no-brainer for generations. Everyone has the right to marry. No one is "disenfranchised..." which is the buzz word for liberals when they want something they can't have. You have the right to marry. You just can't marry a woman. It's the way it's always been. Now you want it to change, and force us to accept it.
Which one of us is intolerant?
Marla-3071717 Your nutty religious believes are showing. There is nothing wrong with two people loving and married to each other regardless of their sex. Your ignorance of the subject is astounding. Fortunately the number of people with your mentality are growing smaller every day.
Greg-- that would be "nutty religious beliefs," my friend. You say there's nothing wrong. Okay, works for you. I say there is. I don't think our numbers are growing smaller. I think they're just politically incorrect, so "your" side gets more air time and "our" side gets mocked for our Christian "believes" because the people with the most public voice gets their message out.
It is what it is. If laws change, they change-- I hope they don't.
The non-christian society members would like you to keep your christianity to yourself, and not try to dictate what the rest of us do.
Welcome to a secular nation.
Carter(4 yrs)-1 trillion / Reagan(8yrs) - 1.6T / Bush Sr(4yrs)- 1.5T / Clinton(8 yrs-1.5T
Bush Jr (8 yrs)-4T / OBAMA 3 yrs- 5 trillion ($16077.17/citizen/yr with 311 million citizens) A family of 4 gets $64K/yr for 3 yrs to pay their mortgage, student loan + food. - SAD! isn't it?
Carter(4 yrs)-1 trillion / Reagan(8yrs) - 1.6T / Bush Sr(4yrs)- 1.5T / Clinton(8 yrs-1.5T
Bush Jr (8 yrs)-4T / OBAMA 3 yrs- 5 trillion ($16077.17/citizen/yr with 311 million citizens) A family of 4 gets $64K/yr for 3 yrs to pay their mortgage, student loan + food. - SAD! isn't it?
What in the world are you ranting about? It must be important to you since you submitted three times.
The Episcopal denomination has been dead for a long time-- this comes as no surprise.
Reading your comments here Marla, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that you are an incredibly hideous and shameful human being (or should I say demon).
I'm sorry you feel that way. I believe I conduct myself with integrity and civility in this forum. If you have evidence to the contrary, lay it on me. If my views, which are biblically based, convict you, that is your problem, not mine.
I speak my mind politely, and share my Christian convictions with respect. If that hits you between the eyes, then take it to the man upstairs.
Really, Marla? I am an Episcopalian and I can tell you that OUR Church is alive and well, thank you very much. I attend church weekly, serve on various church committees, am involved with ministries through my church that feed the hungry and help the homeless and do the work of Christ in general. Great things are happening in the Episcople Church. So, Why don't you worry about the log in your own eye and not worry about whether or not we have a speck of saw dust in our eyes. And as far as your views being "biblically based," I suppose you must have skipped that part about "not judging lest you be judged" or "loving your neighbor as yourself." Try reading the New Testament sometime, especially the Gospels. You'll be amazed at what you learn. The Sermon on the Mount is a good place to start as well as the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Well, Vince, I gotta tell you-- with all due respect, the New Testament that I read teaches against a woman pastor. It also teaches against homosexuality. Both are found and acceptable in the Episcopal church. If your church wants to accept it, go for it-- but they should at least have the honesty not to call it a bible believing, Christian denomination.
And I totally love the misuse of the "judge not lest you be judged" that goes on here. People, we can judge what scripture judges. Anything scripture calls sin, I can most definitely call sin.
Marla, I for one am enjoying your truthful and Bible based comments. The homosexuals will distort anything that condems their sinful life and the reason is clear, they know that what they do is wrong, the Word says that even without ever hearing about God he has instilled into our very consciencs as to what is right or wrong. Our conscience will convict us of sin, and this happens to the homosexual, that is why they fight against those who try to tell them it is wrong. God Bless You for trying.
Unfortunately for you and your cults, Jerry and Marla, your bible is irrelevant to our laws.
well, actually, it kinda is relevant-- our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values by biblically oriented men.
Man has changed, therefore he is trying to change laws. God hasn't changed.
Sorry Marla you're wrong (lack of knowledge from what I suspect is home schooling). We were not founded by Judio-Christian values.
Also you don't have a clue what laws are. They reflect what society thinks is right at this time. It changes as society changes. Laws weren't written to be in stone.
Laws weren't written to be in stone.
Tell that to Moses...ha. We were absolutely founded by men interested in preserving a "Christian" ideal for our nation. Many of them were deists, which of course explained the use of the term "Creator" instead of God in some places.... They were also supremely aware of the need for a separation of church and state, lest we have another Anglican church of England, forcing itself on all citizens.
You make good points, however-- laws have changed to reflect the change of society. It was against the law at one time blacks to vote, women to vote, and for blacks and whites to marry. To that end, I'll definitely concede your point-- and agree with the change. There was nothing scriptural commanding their prohibition.
And I'm sure at the end of the day, because current laws of marriage are biblical they will be overturned. As a Christian, of course, I just hope they're not. I'm sure the Founding Fathers never envisioned a day when men would stand and fight for the right to marry other men.....
Your mythical story of Moses is irrelevant.
We are a secular government. The fathers of this country fled the prosecution of religion and so this specifically separated church and state. This is in your favor. Why? Because if you open it up you open it up for every religion (myth). Some things you wish for might not turn out the way you wanted it to.
Your god yahweh is a personal god. To my understanding that means you keep it to yourself. So I ask you why do you feel the need to have your mythical believes constitute the law?
My Moses reference was a joke, Greg-- obviously you're not a "Bible believer," so I threw that in tongue in cheek.
What separation of church and state was guaranteeing was the freedom to practice any religion, or no religion for our citizens. But we obviously had to have something-- some set of values guiding us. All the major religions have at their crux regarding marriage, that it's between one man, one woman.
regarding Christianity, and my wish that it be at the heart of our laws....well, gosh, Greg-- isn't that an obvious one? I obviously believe that obedience to scripture blesses individuals, and nations. That's a no-brainer.
I appreciate the conversation-- with the exception of the word "nutty" you've been a pleasure.... I need to rustle up grub for the family-- have a great night.
WRONG AGAIN, Marla.
John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli, 1797
STILL WRONG. Civil marriage predates organized religion by thousands of years, and in this secular nation, legal marriage is -- and always has been -- a civil contract. What your cult, or any other, chooses to do regarding marriage is its own business, not the government's.
Try documents like the Magna Carta, because documents and values like THAT are what "guided" the Founding Fathers.
But Erin-- just as with the abortion/breast cancer issue I referenced earlier, I can find you a quote from Adams... "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United-- John Adams, June 1813
To varying degrees, these were all men of faith. Nearly half of the original signers held seminary or Bible degrees, for heaven's sake. They may have not been the fire and brimstone preachers, but they were all men of faith....to some extent.
Quite honestly, I'm still very interested to hear your justification for undermining the religious and moral upbringing of children by parents who teach things of which you disapprove. How do you justify trying to "undo" anything a parent teaches his child? What gives you the right? What makes YOU, Erin, the moral compass by which these children must navigate these waters??
It's the educators like you who give "education" a bad rap, and make people like me choose to home school-- at least through the elementary and middle school years. I'd rather not have your social engineering, thank you, very much. Stick to reading, writing and 'rithmetic which you're paid to do, and leave the moral upbringing of our children to us. Unbelievable gall, Erin.
Sure, let's see what the Founding Fathers had to say about faith and religion:
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor
"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor
The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." -- Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." --- Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816
"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." --- Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819
The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. Thomas Jefferson
Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible]. Thomas Paine
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. Thomas Paine
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. Thomas Paine
Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions. George Washington
Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]
Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists.... George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority. George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)
I have examined all the known superstitions of the World, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world...The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. Thomas Jefferson
It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. Thomas Jefferson
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. Thomas Jefferson
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, 1785
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." James Madison, letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." James Madison, 1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." Benjamin Franklin
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England." Benjamin Franklin
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." Benjamin Franklin
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin, in Poor Richard's Almanac
Quite honestly, Marla, it's because of the bull@!$%# people like you feed your children about such subjects as homosexuality and how to treat others. People like YOU are the ones who raise monstrous little bullies who delight in poking fun at the children with two mothers or two fathers, or the ones with only ONE parent, or the ones who may not dress as nicely as the rest of the kids, etc. WE have to teach them that such things don't matter, since we all have to get along and live and work with each other, no matter where we come from, or what our individual circumstances may be.
I would gladly do that -- IF you actually taught your children any "morals".
Talk about unbelievable gall -- you have it in spades, Marla!
No such thing.
Demonstratably false! Our nation is founded on the Constitution, which makes NO reference to any religious ideology. I defy you to prove otherwise!
Also false! The Founding Fathers wanted to preserve individual freedom and liberty as an ideal of our nation.
Wouldn't that be contradictory to the idea of our nation being founded under "judeo-christian" ideals?
False again! Marriage is a civil institution under the perview of the law. The religious aspect is merely ceremonial with no legal weight. Furthermore, there has NEVER been, in the history of civil or common law (which predates christianity), a requirement for religious approval for a marriage to be valid or permissible.
And many religions and their societies and cultures also recognized and allowed same sex marriage too.
Separation also means religion cannot be used to influence the government or be the basis of secular law.
Good thing it's not, as the Constituton prohibits just such a thing.
And I obviously believe the exact opposite. But you are free to believe whatever you want.
Spurious quote. Adams never said that. Try to get your references from other sources besides christian revisionists.
Immaterial! Their faith had nothing to do with the drafting of the Constitution or the basis of the founding of this country, save for the freedom to have any faith one wished.
Morality is quite subjective.
Here is the entire quote which Marla erroneously used (no surprise):
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/adams-and-the-general-principles-of-christianity/
No surprise, and no credibility for her either!
Erin-- while I am tempted to prove my abilities to cut and paste, too, by posting Christian quotes from the Founding Fathers ad nauseum to illustrate my point that one can find anything to try to bolster their beliefs, I will refrain. From a time standpoint, it's just not prudent and wouldn't do anything to sway you...just as yours do nothing to sway me. Suffice it to say, our Founding Fathers would no doubt roll over in their graves if they knew where our country is on a bevy of levels.
Gordy-- agreed to an extent, morality is subjective. However, parents, not teachers, are responsible for the moral upbringing of their children.
Erin, I don't know what grades you teach, but I'm sure your job grows harder every year. But it isn't because of "people like me." I would all but guarantee you don't have children of people like me in your school, for there aren't very many people like me anymore, my friend. People like me are less concerned with their wealth and material comfort than they are the spiritual and emotional health of their children, and so they stay home to raise their children. People like me don't dump them in daycare and your elementary schools, for others to raise. People like me find the discipline and moral upbringing of our children paramount, and take the commands of scripture to teach them "when you walk, when you lie down…" very seriously.
People like me have spurned church attendance because they realize churches aren't filled with people like me. People like me have suffered greatly, and witnessed enormous pain at the hands of professing Christians, who are leaders of their churches. So people like me look at all professing Christians with a skeptical eye. People like me know that Christians will be known by their "fruit." Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. People like me train our children to treat all people with kindness, believing the scriptural command, "In humility, consider others as better than yourself." People like me teach their children that when they're out in "the world," they are ambassadors of Christ, and of their family.
People like me have put their children in high school, and have gotten nothing but thumbs up for having well-behaved, respectful, friendly, attentive children. People like me have raised children who have as their best friends openly gay classmates. People like me teach their children to show their faith by example-- to live it. People like me teach their children that they are to, "love their neighbor as themselves," and that they are not to be unkind to anyone. People like me would knock in the head of any child of mine who "bullied" anyone. People like me teach their children to stand up for themselves, and defend themselves, but if they cause trouble for anyone…they're toast. So, please get off your high horse about "people like me." You know nothing of people like me.
As a parent, I've made mistakes by the dozen, and will no doubt continue, dope that I am. But one mistake I'll never make is to turn my young children over to "people like you" who presume to step into the role of parents. Maybe your hands are tied because parents have dropped the ball, and you feel you're doing the right thing. Who knows? Like I said, I'm sure your job (assuming you're a teacher) is harder than ever. Little Johnny can do no wrong, and if he gets hostile in class, teachers can't do anything about it... You have a tough row to hoe, no doubt.
But it isn't because of people like me.
Go right ahead. We've posted original and valid documentation, which proves the US was not founded on Christian principles. The Constitution alone is the most authoritative in that respect. You can post anything you want from the FF, but unless it has something directly dealing with the drafting of the Constitution, our laws/government, or the actual founding of this country, all you have is personal expressions of faith and nothing more.
While I agree, teachers also had a direct influence on children. probably second only to actual family members.
Agreed, Gordy-- but, if teachers undermine parents with whom they disagree, by pushing their own beliefs on another's children on "sensitive, and/or hotbed cultural issues," that's where a line should be drawn.
no one has to agree. But someone else's child is off limits.
my kids at the high school level have had some incredible teachers-- some that have totally changed their lives, due to finding and encouraging a passion...music, for example.... And teaching that child how to hone a skill, et cetera. I don't mean to bash all teachers-- many are dedicated to their profession, and do an incredible job. My beef was simply her statement that she purports to "undo" anything a parent would teach a child with regard to homosexuality and/or gay marriage. Not her place.
Appreciate the conversation-- have a great day.
The problem here is the definition of such issues. If a parent teaches a child to be racist, will not the parent claim the teacher is undermining their parental rights if the teacher tells them its wrong?
I suppose the question is, who's to say it's wrong? Don't get me wrong...I say it's wrong. But that's just me. What would give the teacher the right to tell a child that anything his/her parent has taught them is wrong? A parent has the right to teach his kid anything he/she wants. It's a scary reality, but I personally believe parents have total sovereignty in the moral education of their children-- for better or worse.
A teacher obviously can and should maintain a culture of respect and good behavior in their classroom from all students to each other, simply because we're all human beings. I realize people have labels...white, black, conservative, liberal, Democrat, Republican, straight, gay-- but shouldn't the teacher simply attempt to maintain a culture of mutual respect, without addressing what a parent teaches a child?
I have a dream.....
I agree, but what if the child wants to know why they should be respecting these groups? Can a teacher explain then?
Sure-- how 'bout this..."Because I said so. This is my classroom and this is how everyone must behave in this room."
I know that answer may not be politically correct anymore-- but it still works in my world with my kids. Because I said so. You will behave 'this way' in my classroom, because I said so. It doesn't have to address anyone's personal moral or religious beliefs....it's not "because your parents are wrong." It's simply because that's how I insist all people behave in my class.
And to be fair-- if that's all Erin is talking about, then no harm, no foul. If she is simply correcting behavior without criticizing one's parenting to their child, no biggie. Again, I'm all for the rights of parents. Muslim parents have the right to teach the kids what they teach their kids. Christian parents, heck-- gay parents. My friend and his husband adopted a child. They have a right as parents to teach that kid anything they want about homosexuality and gay marriage, et cetera. I don't have to agree with anything. But it wouldn't be my place to try and undo it, should the opportunity ever arise and I find myself in that child's presence.
Rambling, I know-- sorry.
Have a great day.
I suppose on that my disagreement is personal: as a child I hated that answer. In fact I hold that sort of answer as one of the main reasons I renounced religion in general.
Well, it's not a religious answer-- it's simply an authoritative answer. Someone has to have authority. In the home, it's supposed to be the parent. In the classroom, it's the teacher. Maybe your problem is with simply authority, and not religion-- meaning no disrespect. Food for thought. As a kid, I don't know any of them that like that answer. I want candy when I want candy. I don't want to hear "because I said so." As a parent, I totally get it.
No disrespect taken. My problem was more with the lack of intelligence in the response, at least to my mind. I was inquisitive. I wanted to know the "why" and found that such copouts merely stifled my growth. The two copouts that led to me leaving the church were "the bible says so" and "the church says so", without even providing context or reference to where or why. That of course led to questioning the validity of the christian god, since the only evidence of his supremacy is "the bible says so".
Well, now you can find, if you're so inclined, where and why "the Bible" and the Christian God says so. As for "the church?" Meh-- not my bag, either for a lot of the reasons already stated. There is no validity of the Christian God that anyone can point to as "proof," unless in all honesty, one is open to it. Scripture says quite frankly the proof is all around us-- "If every tongue was still, the rocks and stones themselves would start to sing..." and quite honestly, I believe God helps those believe when He wants them to believe. Yeah, I know-- so why share with you what I believe-- why not leave it all to God. Well, that's also part of the package-- to give an answer for the hope that is in me. I'm supposed to do it with gentleness and respect-- to that end, I hope I have succeeded.
getting back to the response-- I said so-- in an effort to be respectful to my kids, I try to give them a reason. As a former child, you and I both know there is often no reason that will satisfy a child who wants what they want. "yeah, but, Mom....." Sometimes, when all is said and done, "Mommy said no." At that point, the authority has spoken....they can either respect it, or grumble.... I can't help how they handle it. I suppose I'll see how they all turn out one day. So far, my eldest has a problem with authority-- my others seem okay with it. It'll be interesting to see how he is as a parent one day... he very much enjoys when his little brothers and sisters respect his authority.
See, and that same argument falls on every other god worshiped across the globe. So I ask, how does one pick which is more true? Hence, I am Agnostic Theist, rather than Atheist. I see no singular proof in supremacy for any religion's god(s). And if that proof someday comes, I'll test as I test all things, and accept it if it comes out clean.
To me that's not quite the same as what I was implying, cause you are actually trying to give a reason. My beef was with those who don't bother to.
From watching my parents handle my siblings, I'd say stay firm but supportive. They've all turned out well despite their authority problems in their teens (mostly my sister, who now teaches kindergarden and holds two jobs while donating her time to kids).
allswell-- personally, I don't believe we pick. I believe God picks us. But that's a whole 'nother theological debate.
I think parents of our generation-- well, I'm not sure you're "my" generation, so I'll personalize it-- parents of my generation weren't terribly interested in being respectful. Parents today, however, have gone the other direction and somehow find it disrespectful to insist their child do anything...such as (gasp) obey or God forbid behave at a restaurant, or something. My kids know the deal. We're Tarzan, you're Jane. I "could" give them a "because I said so," because I'm in charge. But it's not respectful, so I generally refrain...unless they keep whining and nagging.
Oh well-- it's been a pleasure.
I believe that obedience to scripture curses nations. We only have to look to how awful it was living under purtitanical christian rule in the colonies or to the extremist muslim nations to see what a curse it is
Never did care for Episcopal Church........still don't. They will have an opportunity to ask for forgiveness, of that I am certain. Lots of things have happened under the guise of "Christianity", not all of them Christian. Same sex marriage is definitely in that category..........not to mention misguided. Those who lead the charge for this deception will not be held guiltless.
Tapado - it's interesting to hear these remarks from someone whose profile picture looks amazingly like President Obama - the most un-Christian politician to attack religious freedoms and show very little respect for the sanctity of human life while he's playing president. Oh - he just came out in favor of gay marriage JUST in time for election year! What a co-incidence!
Tapado - It is interesting to hear these comments from someone whose profile picture bears a striking resemblance to President Obama, the most UN-Christian politician to trample religious freedoms while showing an appalling lack of respect for the sanctity of human life during his term playing commander-in-chief! And (wait for it), co-incidentally, he just came out in favor of gay marriage JUST IN TIME for election year! So I'm sure the Episcopal church loses no sleep over your lack of support.
Uh, Outta? Obama IS a christian...
Judging by your post - Ol' jesus wouldnt condone the venom you spew. I find your post to be the most UN-christian like post I have ever seen.
Tapado, I am an Episcopalian and whether or not you care for us or not is between your and God. But if you are not an Episcopalian, then why should ANYTHING we do concern you? Outtathesem, President Obama is a Christian and one of the greatest Presidents we've had in a century. In fact, he is one of the best Presidents ever of the United States. Your hatred is not very Christian.
@ Toasty McGrath
Of course he's Christian - and I'm the Dalai Lama! Oh, that's right. For the 20 years prior to the 2008 election, President Obama's personal pastor was the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who spewed statements such as "Blacks should not be saying 'God bless America', they should be saying 'God DAMN America!'" Interesting choice of a 'Christian' minister to align oneself with.
@ Dandy 416
I'm so impressed that Jesus chose you to speak for Himself! I was merely pointing out that Tapado is obviously anti-gay, and its ironic that his profile pic is the image of the most powerful politician in the nation who just came out in favor of gay marriage (one of the few things this administration has done that I'm happy about). But I find his timing awfully convenient. Oh, and if mine is the 'most un-Christian posts you read, you obviously haven't read very many. My 'venom' is docile in comparison to many.
All of the nasty comments just make me realize how glad I am to be an Episcopalian. Those that spew hate *are not true Christians*. Jesus would never condone your actions. I hope *you're* ready for *Him* in the afterlife.
Me too. Maybe one day they will get a clue what Jesus was all about:)
A049, Its not hate, can;t you see that???? It is Bible teaching, God said it is wrong, you gonna argue with God?????? I guess the Episcopalian bible is different than the KJV.
bamaboy65 - no, for many years the KJV was the common Bible used in the Episcopal Church. Common practice (in western NY, at any rate) is the NRSV (New Revised Standard Version), although I have also seen the RSV used.
Always liked the Episcopal church -- where I grew up, they were the go to church for us catholics that had it with the male-centric papal dogma. I'm currently not into organized religion but I'm glad to hear some enlightened thinking has been put in action.
But you're not god - nor are you jesus. So please sit down and worry about your own little, self deluded world.
Dandy you tell bamaboy65 to sit down and worry about his own little self deluded world? REALLY? You should worry about your own self deluded little world and quit trying to tell other people how to think!!!
To peeps like bamaboy, hate IS religion. I believe Jesus would not agree.
To: A049
I'm sorry, but you are NOT a true Christian. From all of what I have read, no one is spewing hate.
It makes me sad in my heart to think that being gay has become accepted. In the eyes of Jesus and God, (one in the same), this is NOT accepted. Your Church scares me, we are truely in end times now.
Every one of us, EVERY one us! Has to be responsible for our actions, our temptations. In our hearts we know what is right and wrong. We fall short, we sin. We ask for forgiveness thru Jesus, he is the only way.
No one hates you! I certainly do not hate homosexuals!
Where did morality come from? Where did our laws come from? It came from the Bible. The Ten Commandments. Rather anyone of us like it or not, our lives are based on those commandments.
15 deleted, joeyokum exclaiming:
Keep the slurs to yourself. You're suspended for a week for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
WRONG, suekrose. Morality is subjective, which is why it is not legislated (for example, adultery is not illegal, nor is fornication). Whether YOU believe it nor, our laws did not come from the bible; in fact, only two of the 10 commandments are even codified into law: murder and theft, and they are only included because they involve victims who cannot or do not consent to such actions. Please show us where the Constitution mentions either God, Jesus, the bible, or any other religious deity or text.
Well there you go. That is the difference between you and I ErinNJ. Morality is subjective, but in your heart you should know right from wrong. Acting on your temptations and somehow justifying them is a sin. And we are all guilty of sin. How did you know that murder or stealing was wrong? You just know? Homosexuality is wrong. If you are a Christian that is how you think and feel. These rules, (laws) are put into place by God. We have to abide by them. There is no other way. Again, if you are a Christian that is how you think and feel.
Except your god never speaks against homosexuality in the original texts and translations.
"Knowing right from wrong" and "morality" are two different things. I consider your ignorance immoral, but that doesn't make it wrong.
So when I eat too much chocolate it is unjustifiable?
BTW, I am a straight, married woman who supports equality -- and there are many millions of heterosexuals just like me.
I certainly did not need a book of fairy tales, written by men, to tell me they are wrong. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would understand that something that harms another person(s) is wrong.
ALL Christians obviously do not think and feel that way, and just because YOU interpret Christianity in a certain way does not mean that YOU can decide what makes a Christian.
I can't argue with you. You are way to smart for me ErinNJ.
I should've known better from seeing some of your other comments.
You really think common sense has anything to do with it??? Wow! There are alot of really intelligent people out there that lack common sense. Hmmmm.
suekrose - On your comment to me: "From all of what I have read, no one is spewing hate."
Are you kidding me, really? Some of the comments here just show how vile and stupid America has become. We're no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave; we're the land of bigotry and ignorance. You and all of the lowercase 'christians' are everything that's wroing with our country because you actually seem to believe that this kind of hatred and sheer ignorance is good for America.
You said to ErinNJ: "These rules, (laws) are put into place by God. We have to abide by them. There is no other way. Again, if you are a Christian that is how you think and feel."
No, SueKRose ... Not all Christians are bigots like you. Your 'law' is the law of man, not God.
No Christian dares to claim they know the mind of God because they have been indoctrinated in the twisted and dumbed down version of the Bible that hypocrite churches use to hate others. True Christians, SueKRose, do not judge -- and try to speak for God -- they do not discriminate, hate and spew vile.
True Christians, SueKRose, do not teach their children it's OK to hate the gay kid. True Christians, SueKRose, feed the poor and clothe the homeless. True Christians, SueKRose, don't eject illegal immigrants. True Christians don't support Wall Street screwing over middle America.
True Christians don't claim global warming has nothing to do with man and pretend it doesn't exist. True Christians don't blame the teacher before looking to see how their kid might be screwing up. True Christians want laborers to work in the safest conditions possible, aside from corporate profits.
True Christians don't hate the poor, they feed them. True Christians do not lobby against those beat down by the rest of society, they stand with them, stand behind them and fight for, "All men are created equal." True Christians fight for what is right, even if it is not what's popular. True Christians don't write discrimination into the Constitution.
True Christians want everyone to have access to health care. True Christians always want peace; they don't police the world and look for war. True Christians practice tolerance and preach love and respect for all people, creatures, and living things.
You are not a true Christian, SueKRose, because you think it is OK to hate other people and discriminate against them, and try to orchestrate laws to restrict the freedom; life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that is every American's birthright.
True Christians don't stand behind a book that's been warped and twisted by humankind's selfish need to supress and control other humans and justify crimes against others - christians do that, SueKRose, because they are cowards and hypocrites that have used 'the Word of God', they claim, wretched out of folktales written in a different age. True Christians haven’t turned the Bible into a manual for discrimination.
Yes, there is another way, SueKRose; the true Christian way which does all things modern America christians do not.
You, SueKRose, are a christian with a lowercase 'c'. The Episcopal Church, by this courageous action, has shown it is a Christian church in the truest sense.
Can some Priest kindly explain to me why GOD's Word, Jesus's comments and warnings do not apply to the Episcopal Church ? I will be waiting with open ears why the Bible is ignored in the Episcopal Church.
judge_bill@hotmail.com
I can't because Jesus never ventured an opinion on gay men nor does God .. only some crazy guy named Leviticus. BUT judge bill .. I can help you find many places God and Jesus warn us about JUDGING OTHERS.
Judge Bill, the Bible is not ignored in the Episcopal Church. On most Sundays, you will receive a lesson from the Old Testament, a lesson from one of the letters of Paul (or one of the other apostles), a Gospel Lesson from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John and one or more Psalms. I don't call that ignoring the Bible.
gods word huh?
like the hell worthy trespass of eating pork or shellfish? lending and borrowing money with interest? rich people giving all their money away? is that what we are talking about?
Well Bill, they pick and choose which parts of the biblical texts to take literally, just like you do. The difference is that their interpretation puts them in line with civil rights, while yours is in line with the racists and sexists of yesteryear.
"Dead" is in the eyes of the beholder, dear Marla. Such a pooh pooh attitude. I am delighted to be an Episcopalian, the only Church that truly embraces the diversity that was taught by Jesus of Nazareth.
Rev Vincent-- at the end of the day I guess we'll learn if God has a problem with churches embracing that which is forbidden in scripture. Your denomination has women pastors-- which is forbidden-- openly gay bishops-- which is forbidden-- and now has approved same-sex unions. Dead refers to your obedience to scripture, as a denomination-- not meaning yours personally.
I am always curious as to how a denomination as a whole can throw out parts of scripture, from the top down, that they don't find palatable. (and before anyone goes with the "you eat shellfish, don't you-- you don't leave the country when you have your period, do you" argument-- Christ came to fulfill the Old Testament laws...no longer are we required to obey the old Mosaic laws for our salvation....)
Oh well-- in any event, I'm sorry that I offended you with my adjective or attitude.
Hey Dave, God may have been "discussed" with their filth, but I know he's "disgusted" with narrow-minded hatred. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, my friend.
Hey gogobill888, thanks for joining the discussion with a post that has NOTHING to do with the topic. Way to spam!
~~~~~~~~* FIRST
You forget that after He said "cast the first stone" He went on to tell her "go now, and leave your life of sin." We are not to hate or "judge" (judge in the sense of doling out punishment), but we are to acknowledge sin for what it is and try to guide someone away from it. It is not loving if, for example, I see a friend acting in a way that God condemns and simply ignore it just to be PC or something.
Finally, a religious denomination that does not discriminate... What's next? Bigfoot is captured?
I don't believe the Episcopal Church or condone their actions, I believe in God, Jesus and the holy spirit.
You mean Jesus, the guy who said "judge not, least ye be judged"? That Jesus?
Pedestrian,
It is not up for us to judge...God will do that just fine in His own due time, but for now, I think Judge Bill is simply trying to fall back on basic Christian doctrine and calling out the Episcopalian church for straying from that.
God destroyed the gays eons ago so now this gay church ok's the unholy union of them. Close this church down and forbid it to do this. They are no longer a church just a building without biblical basis. Pull their rights as they are now a cult.
good thing you aren't in charge of anything. Close down things because YOU don't like it? sad.
PS - god destroyed the gays eons ago? doubtful that he eradicated every single gay, but if you have proof, go for it.
Which religion isn't a cult?
cult (klt)
n.
1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
You want to make a church ILLEGAL because it doesn't prescribe to your own personal doctrine? That is probably the most blatantly unconstitutional THOUGHT that could ever occur to someone. You should be embarrassed to call yourself "An American."
God must have poor aim then, as there are still gays around.
That's their perogative.
Perhaps you're unaware of the US Constitution or the separation of church and state?
The only difference between a religion and a cult is the amount of real estate they own.
Doesn't the Bible also claim that people shouldn't eat shellfish or meat from animals with cloven hooves? I wonder how many of these commenters on the "filth" of gay marriage also follow those prohibitions? Hmmm
Certain OT restrictions were specifically lifted (the one you cite was lifted in Romans 14:20). Others are simply rendered unnecessary by Christ's death and resurrection. Many OT practices were the previous imperfect methods of attempting to make oneself clean and righteous before approaching God in the temple, such as animal sacrifices, scapegoats, etc. When Jesus became the one all-sufficient sacrifice, those methods were no longer necessary. However, if it's not specifically lifted or made unnecessary, it would obviously still be in effect.
Incidentally, Leviticus is not the only place that God's word makes it clear that He does not condone homosexuality. You can certainly say you disregard/disbelieve the Bible and for that reason don't have a problem with homosexual behavior, but to suggest that it can be a legitimate belief for a true follower of Christ is actually the "cherry-picking" of which so many are quick to accuse Bible-believing Christians.
Read like a friggin Dr Suess story. You people are nuts.
Dandy...that's an easy cop out but poor way to understand or refute lyds6382's point about old testament laws/practices.
Incidentally, it is the only place. All other current instances of homosexuality in modern translations are misrepresentations and purposefully false translations of the original greek and hebrew.
Do you have to be gave to join a union now?
its easy to make your own religon nowadays ..no diffrent then re-writing the black hole book
just to throw in a few bashings to gay peoples parents... let boys be raised by men, seems to me mamas boys are only doing what they see mamas do. waxing the pole or bending over for daddy. there s a cure for everythging try that
Got any, you know, peer-reviewed data to support your little theory there, Professor?
How unholy can you get a Church that condones SIN, and SIN is against GOD'S will..
There's more sin in the world and it's NOT two loving people joining in union. God would not judge unlike the sinful who find fault with everyone else besides themselves.
How about the Catholic Church aiding and abetting the clergy abusers? Is that not a sin and contrary to God's will? Yet gay marriage is a problem? This world is nuts...
Judge so is self righteousness....and you practice that in spades.
God made only one requirement tio enter heaven
John 3:16
Note it says WHOSOEVER ... Not whosoever straight, Just WHOSOEVER. No limitations except that you beleive in Jesus and accept him.
ACEEPT...anbother workd you should learn.
People select the passages that they believe makes their case. Then they use them to discriminate against others. Because when you point to another passage, they clam up...
Judge Bill, the reason we are not as oppressive as the Taliban is becuase we have freed ourselves from enslavement to ancient Middle eastern texts. If you want to live in a theocracy, try Iran.
it doesn't mean you can do whatever you can either. If you want to live freely, try desert.
Frankly - you are absolutely correct, "whosoever BELIEVETH in Him". He explains in the rest of the Bible how we may know if we truly do believe in Him. If we legitimately believe in Him, we will want to please Him by following His commands out of love. He specifically clarifies in James 2 that believing in the sense of acknowledging His existence and even His sovereignty is not what he meant by the term "believe" in John 3:16. He points out that even Satan and the demons believe, but obviously that's not enough. What is the difference between their knowledge that He's the Sovereign God and a Christian believer (to use today's terms) with the same knowledge? Obedience that demonstrates He is our Lord, that we love and serve Him. We'll fail, certainly, but the Bible is clear that it's a heart issue...do we acknowledge when we sin and strive to move past those sins with His help? If so, we truly believe. If not, it's just an acknowledgement of His existence.
Dont use the Whore of Babylon (CATHOLIC CHURCH) as an example. they have sold their wares to the world. the older i get the easier it is to see what God means by many are called but few are chosen. just by reading all the athiest bs here about how non christian it is to not accept gay relationships. Christ said GO AND SIN NO MORE. not believe in me and you will be saved even if you continue to live in sin. so stop with that lie you cannot continue in sin and believe in CHRIST at the same tie that is another delusion you carry to continue in sinful worldy ways.
SacredFire...your reference to Catholic clergy abusers is a Red Herring argument. I agree that the hipocrisy exists however that does not in any way support an argument for gay marriage. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Frankly True...You are correct that "Whosoever" invites ALL to come unto Christ, but then you say "except that you believe in Jesus and accept Him"... how do you believe in Him but not "accept" what He and His disciples taught? Believing in Him does not involve a buffet acceptance of which of His teachings you accept/reject. You can't have it both ways.
SacredFire and others here try to point out that Christians simply select Biblical texts to support their position but ignore those that don't. That may be the case when discussing specific tenets of Christian doctrine but certainly NOT when it comes to homosexual lifestyle. In short, there are numerous verses throughout the old and new testament speaking against it, but you will not find one scripture to support homosexuality. If you find it, please let me know the book, chapter, and verse...I'd love to see it.
As I said earlier, this decision that the Episcopalian church made was a MARKETING decision, not a Christian-based doctrinal decision.
This is why I'm proud to be an Episcopalian!
Because you are gay?? Or do you accept anything ?? Can I marry my sister and join your church?
why do you care what other people do Harold? i have always suspected that many of you that are so hell bent on bashing gays. have some gay tendencies. in other words it wouldn't surprise me if i heard that you were arrested at a highway rest stop.
This is why every American needs to know the effect of infiltration our political system. If the church can be corrupted by gays and lesbians, just think of our country. Our country is constantly being infiltrated by foreign countries such as Mexico. Mexico is the best example. I mean just look at what our federal government bureacrats continue to allow as far as illegal entry and taking American citizens jobs. Our government keeps suing states that want to stop illegal immigration. Hello!! Wake up Comrads!!
Tracey...Have to agree with you. Most gay bashers are closeted gays that think that if they curse other gays then they cant possibly be gay themselves.
why is it that gay people just cant come to grips with the fact that ordinary since christ was man and woman and now 2000 years later gay people want us to accept this over night. of course people that are use to doing things in a certain way are not going to accept this as ok but gay people want this to happen over night. and no every person that does not like this wants to be gay why would anybody want a foot long hotdog in their rectum. does that seem normal considering you take a crap out that same hole. but my thinking is mess up come on be real.
Well Mew, the mouth hole is for eating, but I suspect you also use it for breathing and talking. How unnatural...
Besides, marriage was invented well before your religion was. You have no claim to possession over it.
Because being gay is akin to incest. Dolt.
Eveyone just needs to calm down and understand that nothing is the matter with gays or gay marriage. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has been "blessing" gay unions for trillions (or possibly thousands) of years. The FSM, in His Noodly wisdom, commanded us to accept gay people. Going against this commandent is going against "His Will". So accept the FSM, quit hating one another, and enjoy a beer.
Go in Peace and Saucyness!
RAmen
Tracey-638709...Do you really not care what other people do? Isn't that a little too broad?
guy-2789881..."Most gay bashers are closet gays"...really? That's got to be the "hastiest" of all generalizations. Your argument says more about you than those you attempt to mock.
Toasty...marriage has religious roots long before political roots. It started as a religious institution and was adopted by the state.
Marriage predates organized religions, particularly the monotheistic ones. The civilly defined union was crafted to control physical assets and recognize lineage. God was irrelevant.
WRONG. Civil marriage predates organized religion by thousands of years; in fact, religion did not involve itself in marriage until around the mid-1500s.
Well responded, allswell. I appreciate your intellectual response.
Western culture never had to define marriage until this generation. There are different accounts of the etymology of marriage: we have a historical and a biblical account. I'll assume you don't care for the religious so we'll stick with secular. From history, we learn that marriage was a social contract that controlled the distribution of acquired property like you said. I believe it was the Republican France that was the first "modern/western" government to break from Rome and the Pope, by saying the Catholic church would no longer control and ordain marriage in France. When France broke away, citizens then had to register at City Halls or the marriage was meaningless." They also attached a fee or marriage tax. Now regardless of the location of the marriage, a civil record of the marriage was made in the form of a license (from the Latin to permit, allow) and a fee or tax.
Parallel to this development is the idea that morality cannot or must not be legislated. Most laws in the Anglo-Saxon/American community were and many still are based on the law givers' moral compass but that's another discussion even though there are some here who would claim differently.
At one point or another in the history of this nation and its various states there were laws based on the ten commandments - it was a crime to blaspheme, it was a crime to shop on the Sabbath (which ever day that might be), it was a crime to disrespect your parents, it was a crime to commit adultery.
Then comes the "enlightened society" which claims that blaspheming is protected speech, closing stores on Sunday infringes on the rights of those who do not care about worshiping God, children do not need to obey parents because it diminishes their self esteem, and of the last few decades - the state has no right to interfere with an individuals sexual indiscretions. These laws were all set aside by the argument that morality should not be legislated.
Currently it is still immoral and illegal to murder, perjure yourself, steal, and conspire to take something that is not yours. What happens when these crimes are no longer considered immoral by the enlightened masses?
Regardless, even when land agreements have been involved in marriages, if no child resulted from the marriage relationship to inherit the resulting combined land from dowries, etc., who did it go to when the couple died? From history: without a child, the marriage could be disputed and the land agreements nullified. Often wars would ensue as former land owners would attempt to retake possession of their land. Alliances would be destroyed. This demonstrates the gravity of what a "marriage" is and should be regarded as from a secular standpoint - leaving out the religious argument altogether.
Marriage is certainly not just whoever loves each other. It has much deeper societal impacts...all of which we will feel over the coming decades as the definition radically changes and homosexuals adopt.
FAIL ErinNJ...the earliest religious marriage was Adam and Eve who built an altar and their relationship was ordained of God. Hence the redneck argument of "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve".
From the religious perspective, the old testament shows men/women relationships ordained of God although I don't expect most of the readers on this website to give the religious perspective any credence here...that's why I addressed the secular perspective as well.
FAIL CaballeroKid your god, book, stories are all make believe. Try again. Religion = myth. That doesn't count. I suggest you tattoo the capital letter L on your forehead.
That's nice. Prove it! While you're at it, prove there's a god!
An argument which certainly fits the intellectual capacity of a redneck.
Since not everyone is religious, nor is religion required for mariage, that particular aspect is irrelevant!
What you fail to take into account is that the christian churches had to insert themselves into the marriages of the non-nobility. The peasantry were getting married without the church (indeed, without religion in some cases, an insult to the church's control) for centuries before Catholicism spread its icy fingers across Europe through the Roman Empire and squeezed.
Why should people who don't accept christ have to live by christ's or the bible's rules?
First of all, there a PLENTY of heterosexual couples who engage in anal sex. Anal sex is NOT specific to homosexuals. I've heard there homosexuals don't engage in anal sex.
Secondly, I would rather insert a footlong hotdog in my tuches than sit in church listening to the teachings of christ and rubbing elbows with christians who judge others. Inserting a hotdog in my tuches is a far more pleasant prospect.
in spite of the fact that i stopped believing in god long ago. i am kinda proud of the church i left.
it certainly was never a hate filled church, never once heard a sermon about the gays. it's a religion that's so secure with itself, it doesn't feel the need to vilify others.
female priests, priests that marry, a gay bishop, and now this. it's like a religion not based on a stone age mentality. the rest of christianity is about as advanced as the taliban.
I stopped believing in God for a few years .. then I realised that God and religion have nothing in common and I maybe was mixing the 2 up. So I stopped believing in religion and went back to God :).
...and the Presiding Bishop (Schori) is so very, very proud that she said...cricket...cricket...cricket