Visionary fined $200,000 for home 'improvements'

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LAGUNITAS, Calif. -- David Hoffman is not your typical outlaw. For one, every conversation veers toward the inevitable topic of conservation and sustainability. He can’t understand why people need things like septic tanks – or why they use perfectly good drinking water to wash their cars.

It’s not Hoffman’s ideas that got him into trouble. It was the execution. Forty years of it.


Four decades ago, Hoffman started some home improvements on his house in the wooded hills of the Marin County town of Lagunitas. He harbored ideas and theories of how people could live more sustainably. He started building.

Joe Rosato Jr. / NBC Bay Area

A concrete boat in the middle of a homemade pond houses a 15-foot-deep well, powered by solar power.

He dug a massive valley near the slope of his home and installed a pond. In the middle of it he built a concrete boat to house a 15-foot well. The groundwater would refill the pond, through a sun-powered pump.

As the owner of a tea distribution business, Hoffman also built a tea house with ornate metal carvings of dragons and a sloped tile roof.

He carved elaborate caves to dry his rare tea leaves. He constructed a tower bearing a solar shower that hovers over a moat carrying recycled water from the house.

“Most people come here, they see the visual, they see the structures,” said Hoffman. “For me what’s important is the systems behind it.”

His systems include a small wood box filled with earthworms, whose job it is to digest leftover food scraps and cleanse recycled water that runs from the kitchen sink.

Joe Rosato Jr. / NBC Bay Area

A bell tower resembles a pagoda. It also holds tea, and is used to house Hoffman's homemade bells.

Another curious feature is an outdoor toilet. For a time, Hoffman eschewed a septic system in favor of the worms taking care of the human waste.

“I have three different designs on the property for turning human manure or body waste into a valuable fertilizer,” said Hoffman.

See the original story, video on NBCBayArea.com

In all, some 30 homemade structures fill the property, many partially unfinished.

“I guess you could say I had a vision,” said Hoffman. “I had a dream.”

But Hoffman’s vision had one very fatal flaw. He never got permits for any of his projects. For over two decades, county officials red-tagged his buildings. But Hoffman carried on.

“I just build it anyway,” Hoffman said. “I figure there will be value in what I’ve done.”

County officials didn’t see it that way. His fines have run up to over $200,000, and he’s been ordered to tear down all 30 of his illegal structures by Aug. 1.

“David Hoffman ignored the county for 20 years,” said Marin County Supervisor Steve Kinsey. “It came at his own peril.”

Hoffman has been locked in a legal battle with the county for years. In county reports, inspectors would return to the property to inspect previously red-tagged buildings, only to find new ones had sprouted up in the interim.

“We need rules, but we need to have people who have ideas,” reasoned Hoffman.

After repeated efforts to get Hoffman to comply, county officials referred the case to an administrative law judge in January.

“We hope the hearing officer’s decision will have a positive side by motivating David to turn over a new leaf and begin to improve his property,” wrote Marin County Community Development Agency director Brian Crawford in a statement.

Kinsey said he hopes the county can broker a deal that might allow Hoffman to keep his home. He said the county is also exploring the creation of a non-profit organization that could oversee the property.

“It would be tragic in my opinion, to see that piece of work destroyed,” said Kinsey.

Hoffman is also holding out hope he and his wife can somehow keep the property, the buildings and the ecological experiments. In the meantime, there’s a tea house to finish, a garden to plant, and the bell tower still needs wood slats to keep out the raccoons.

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This is a double edge sword. He's at fault, big time!!

  • 17 votes
#1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:54 AM EDT

I agree. He was a moron to ignore getting permits for 20 years, and therefore, he should have expected it would come to this eventually. I would say the city/town should have put their foot down sooner, to end it.

  • 25 votes
#1.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:20 PM EDT

City inspectors are royalty and want to be treated that way. They can get very upset if you don't worship them. They want you to know they have power and will destroy you if they wish.

  • 78 votes
#1.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:20 PM EDT

"They want you to know they have power and will destroy you if they wish."

Or in this case, more likely because he flouted THE LAW for two straight decades. . .

  • 24 votes
#1.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:19 PM EDT

Screw the law, its HIS PROPERTY. If it doesn't hurt anybody else, then leave the poor guy alone.

Pretty soon you'll have to get a permit to take a crap in this country.

  • 103 votes
#1.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:24 PM EDT

jrto77, you already have to get a permit, because people aren't allowed just to crap anywhere they feel like it. For example, in your front yard.

I think what the man in this article is doing DOES endanger others--namely everyone downstream of his sewage recycling! People put regulations in place to protect themselves and others from this kind of disregard.

  • 30 votes
#1.5 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:34 PM EDT

Maybe one day you will have to get a permit before you can crap, but right now you need to get a permit before you can start processing human waste in your yard. Does anyone seriously think you can do that without any review?

  • 16 votes
#1.6 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:37 PM EDT

Really JayEll? Thats why my dad had to ask the county permission to build a toolshed in his backyard that he worked 30 years to pay for and pays taxes on every year? Eff the government. They tax you to live so that they can fund the jobs that tell you what to do with your life.

  • 46 votes
#1.7 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:37 PM EDT

Maybe there WAS potential to hurt others or themselves, hence the need for some permits over 20 years that he chose to ignore. That is hubris. There is always public interest involved - a piece of property doesn't exist in a vaccuum. Water runs downhill. And if your crap, or anything else you do on your property has the potential to do harm, then a permit might be a good idea. The world would be far worse off without regulations keeping "screw the law" people in check.

  • 14 votes
#1.8 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:40 PM EDT

I'm sorry thatguy. . .but we're not talking about your dad, we're talking about an eccentric who built a sewage treatment facility in his backyard. One which it's not THAT hard to imagine could pose a significant health hazard to his neighbors.

  • 19 votes
#1.9 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:40 PM EDT

So much for the dream of owning your property and doing with it what you wnat. Now you have to have approval from the government or your screwed. If he is causing harm to his neighbors then let them bring a case forward, otherwise leave the dude alone. I owne property of my own but when I read this and other stories I wonder why I should own property. I do not get to do with it what I want. Instead I have to pay the taxes and obey the rules of others. Maybe it is better not to own property. I know it is cheaper.

  • 21 votes
#1.10 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:46 PM EDT

He used water from a well to fill a pond then screams about how people wash their cars? Does this idiot not realize well water comes from underground streams/resevoirs that can service more than one well? I know people who have had their water supplies disrupted when another person dug a well. Who knows who could have used that water he was wasting for a pond!! You have to get a permit to draw water for anything in the dry west so I imagine he is in big trouble for failign to do that too. For those screaming this is government stepping on the little guy you would be the first one screaming if your neighbor built something that intruded on your space. My brother had some guy decide to build a boat shop next to his house and almost every day there he would be grinding on some boat or another. You couldn't sit on the back porch and talk it was so loud. You couldn't hear the TV in the kitchen. My brother was a shift worker and he couldn't sleep in is own bedroom. He eventually moved to get away from it......

  • 7 votes
#1.11 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:53 PM EDT

Besides, none of his "sewage treatment" is running anywhere except through a box full of earthworms... Reading comprehension is your friend. The only mobile water sources on his property (according to the article) are the moat for reclamation of water from the house, not sewage. There is also his pond which uses a well to refill the pond when it isn't raining. Apart from that, how are you getting sewage flowing downhill. Do you even know if he has a downhill? Seems from the article he had to build the valley his pond is located in.

  • 17 votes
#1.12 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:53 PM EDT

You have never been able to do "what you want" with property. Property ownership grants the owner a number of rights with respect to the property. It does not, and never has, given the owner the ability to do anything and everything he wants as long as he's on his property. Nobody in the history if the United States has had complete rights with respect to his property.

Because we are a part of society, we cannot have an unlimited number of animals, or unreasonable noise, or any type of water or sewage we want. Watch some of the hoarder shows on TV, and you'll quickly see why society has an interest in what happens on your private property.

  • 10 votes
#1.13 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:56 PM EDT

rj2029x, all it takes is a big rainstorm, and you have untreated sewage running out of that box of earthworms and in any direction it cares to go--and contaminating groundwater. It is a public health hazard, worms or not.

  • 9 votes
#1.14 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:57 PM EDT

I'm fairly confident that all of the "he should be allowed to do what he wants on his property" folks have never lived next door to a crackpot neighbor. (Or I suppose they could actually be the narcissistic crackpot neighbor themselves).

Yes, there are examples of silly enforcement (e.g.: Homes foreclosed upon due to 100$ fine liens), but when I hear $200,000 of fines over 20 years... Well, I'm thinking it would be hard to put this one in the silly enforcement category - if anything it should be filed under the ridiculously lenient category.

  • 11 votes
#1.15 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:59 PM EDT

It's a two edged sword. If he had applied for permits he probably would have been denied but the law says you must have a permit. Rather than tear down the structures they should be studied by enviromentalists.

  • 8 votes
#1.16 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:00 PM EDT

Seems to me like this guy is getting very special treatment because he is "green". Moreso that a typical citizen would get who disregards the county for 20 years. All this stuff of trying to broker a deal to keep he and his wife in their home is balony. He's breaking the law and flouting it. It doesn't MATTER if what you are building is "sustainable". If you didn't get the permits to build it, then you didn't get the permits to build it. Tear it down.

Anymore it seems we have one set of rules for "normal" people and another set for people who are politically correct. If you try to camp in a park that doesn't allow camping you are thrown out. Unless of course you are the Occupy movemement. If the state house closes at 7pm you are asked to leave. Unless you are a union wanting to protest a right to work bill. In that case you are allowed to stay 24/7 and special rules are put in place to accomodate you. If you are caught driving without a license your car is impounded... Unless you are an illegal, in which case the state doesn't want to leave you without a way to get to work (but of course you can't legally work without an SSN or a green card, can you?!)....

  • 9 votes
#1.17 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:01 PM EDT

JayEll, we had untreated sewage spanning the entire City here a few weeks ago from the Tropical Storm. Government cant do it right either, but they are god nevertheless. And Ive worked in government. You should see the liens that they put on properties, you wouldnt be so quick to defend them. Theyll happily slap a 5000 dollar lien at 8% interest onto a little old lady's home due to her inability to mow her yard or remove debris. Dont believe me? Look into your city's liens, they're public info. They would litterally and with a straight face try to charge you an "infinity billion dollar lien" if they knew the judge would uphold it when contested.

  • 9 votes
#1.18 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:03 PM EDT

GimDan

This is a double edge sword. He's at fault, big time!!

Kevin C-752389

I agree. He was a moron to ignore getting permits for 20 years,

Personally, I think some of you are more "morons," for participating in the "bend over," rule. Some of you people fear government, and authority so much, you're ready to "bend-over" for them as soon as they show up.

This is typical of government. Lord, thank God this can't turn into a President Obama's fault type situation, after all, this has been going on for 40 years.

Here's my take on it. It's amazing what the government can tell you what to do with your own property. I had that problem once, bought 3 acres of land, built a house in a subdivision with "covenants," MISTAKE, we lived there three years, thank "my" God we had the means to get out of there, I bought myself 40 acres, built another house, and do what the hell I please.

Clotho

You have never been able to do "what you want" with property.

Wrong, depends on how large your property is, like me, living on 40 acres, no one bothers me, do you believe those people living in the central plains owning 100's of thousands of acres are harassed about what they can do? No, they are not.

  • 9 votes
#1.19 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:23 PM EDT

Do you even know if he has a downhill?

rj2029x - two hints taken directly from the article indicating that he probably does have a downhill:

Hoffman started some home improvements on his house in the wooded hills of the Marin County town...

He dug a massive valley near the slope of his home and installed a pond.

There is no statement in the article that indicates that the box of earthworms is also attached to his homemade sewage system. It merely says that he "eschewed a septic system in favor of the worms taking care of the human waste". Those could be earthworms living in the soil.

His systems include a small wood box filled with earthworms, whose job it is to digest leftover food scraps and cleanse recycled water that runs from the kitchen sink.

Yes, reading comprehension is our friend, one that you do not seem to have.

  • 8 votes
#1.20 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:24 PM EDT

jrt..."Screw the law, its HIS PROPERTY."

Not if he is any taxing district. If so, he's merely renting the property from that taxing entity. Don't pay your rent (taxes) and they come and throw you and your household belongings in the street and then sale their property to the next renter in order to collect past due rent.

  • 5 votes
#1.21 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:29 PM EDT

As some here seem to think, I don't know why, this is NOT an issue of inspectors with god complexes. I have known good inspectors and bad ones, yes some want you to bend your knee, others simply point out the laws and are in fact interested in safety.

In this case, he flouted the law. It is required that you have a building permit to build such structures. It's also required if you are going to have this type of waste treatment facility going on. I think he has some very interesting ideas, but that does NOT give him the right to disobey the law. If you don't like the law then you work to change it, but until then you are required to obey it.

So in this sense, I don't see that the county/city is in the wrong at all. It might be a shame for him to lose his work and perhaps his property but he did this to himself. No one else is to blame.

  • 4 votes
#1.22 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:36 PM EDT

If this was a millionaire who simply was adding room after room after room, people would be crying about how this "righty" was shirking his duties as a US citizen and that the rich aren't above the law...probably calling for jail time because the fine wouldn't matter. You can't change the law simply because it'd be a feel-good story...the guy shoulda just gotten the permits.

  • 3 votes
#1.23 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:38 PM EDT

marionc, given that he lives in Marin, there's a pretty high likelihood that he IS a millionaire.

  • 3 votes
#1.24 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:49 PM EDT

Some have the mistaken impression that because they buy a piece
of property, they have a right to do whatever they want on it. That may be true
IF you own your own sovereign nation and pay for your own army to defend it. But
if that is not the case, you are subject to the laws imposed by the government
that provides you with protection from foreign invaders. Follow the rules if
you want to own property and live in this country.

  • 1 vote
#1.25 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:49 PM EDT

The artical says notheing about wether or not the septic system he built is better or worse the "standard way". No one has stated if his buildings are unsafe. So, lets get the answers to this before everyone busts on him.

Since there is no answer to these questions it seems to me that the government is just pissed they didn't get their fees from the licenses.

  • 2 votes
#1.26 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:51 PM EDT

"No one has stated if his buildings are unsafe. So, lets get the answers to this before everyone busts on him."

That's what the permitting process is designed to do, verify that his buildings are in fact safe. . .BEFORE they are built. So let's not pretend he's a good guy that's being victimized here.

  • 8 votes
#1.27 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:53 PM EDT

Florida building requirements kill any creative process.

  • 4 votes
#1.28 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:01 PM EDT

The permit/inspection process serves several purposes:

It makes sure that what is being built conforms with the general plan for the area. You don't want commercial buildings in residential areas, residences in farming areas, or farms in commercial districts.

It makes sure what you plan to build is safe, you build what is approved in a safe manner.

It makes sure that you end up getting taxed for the increased value you put into your property.

It is not all bad or all good. In this case, the guy is a nut job who just does not want to bother with modern government requirements. It also sounds like he has not fully completed very many of the projects he started. More likely than not, he will end up being required to have an inspection to determine the safety/code compliance of the completed buildings. He'll have to bring the property up to code or tear down the buildings which can't be brought up to code. He'll also have to pay some kind of fine.

The $200,000 is the outrageous number the inspector's office put together based on 20 years worth of this guy doing what he wanted to his own property. Most of that is probably from him ignoring the do not build red tags. If they were truly serious about enforcement of the law and fines, they would have seized and sold the property a decade ago.

    #1.29 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:22 PM EDT

    dirp, most of that $200k is probably related to the incredibly high property values in Marin County. . .as well as what you mentioned.

      #1.30 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:28 PM EDT

      So who's the guy hurting? The city just needs to wait another 20 years and then bulldoze it...Question. If it's built like crap, how did it stand all the earthquakes better than alot of code built homes?

      • 4 votes
      #1.31 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:29 PM EDT

      Most of these responses are from people that are jealous he comes with creative new ideas and they're stuck in their dead end zombie jobs. So they punish him with fines. The government is God anyways, right? Typical petty liberals.

      • 3 votes
      #1.32 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:40 PM EDT

      For those defending this nut-job, if you lived next door to him I am sure you would not be defending him. There are numerous reasons why you are required to get building permits and have plans approved before starting construction. For one thing, it is for the safety of the person building the structure as well as anyone who happens to go into it or lives near by. Another thing is, I am sure that none of those defending him would be happy with their neighbor building a human waste treatment setup in their backyard. This presents numerous health risks to everyone in the area, particularly anyone who lives down slope from this guys property. He has flaunted the laws for twenty years and it has finally caught up with him. He has no one to blame but himself for his current situation and I think that these attempts to find a way for him to keep his home are misplaced special treatment and should be stopped. He broke the law and then thumbed his nose at the officials who pointed it out to him and tried to get him to comply. He does not deserve any special help, he should either pay all the money that he owes in fines and immediately tear down all structures that were built without permits and do not meet code. Failing that he should have his property seized, remediated, and sold to someone who will follow the proper codes if they want to make "improvements" to the property.

      • 3 votes
      #1.33 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:45 PM EDT

      I wish some of you people felt as passionate about the pollution and health hazards caused by fracking.

      • 7 votes
      #1.34 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:57 PM EDT

      I believe the story says that he started his projects over 40 years ago, not 20 like most are saying.

      I think the city started all there BS back 20 years ago, there-go this guy may be grandfathered in on some or all of his buildings and projects. I don't see this man hurting anyone and it is his property but the government wants to control just about everything we now do and that is sad. I understand that we need rules but when rules get stacked on top of one another they get out of hand and its all about the money anyways, Greed its everywhere.

      I say if he wants to keep the buildings and projects which he has put a lifetime into let him find a way to bring them up to some type of code (code for the times when built) at his cost so he doesn't lose them.
      Also like few have said here, why not study some of these systems? Maybe there is a better way of doing something or are we all so stuck in our ways that we don't even allow or want that anymore?

      I don't care if the guys rich or poor here its about government getting into every part of everything we try to do. He's a pioneer in many ways.

      • 2 votes
      #1.35 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:26 PM EDT

      They should grant him a legal variance from the official rules and regulations so that he can continue his work on the property and encourage him to publish his findings. If the Judge feels he needs some form of punishment for ignoring the rules, he could sentence him to community service with the task of providing classes for the community on his methods of conservation. The area where he lives is dependent on rainfall into local reservoirs and has a history of water restriction and droughts.

      • 3 votes
      #1.36 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:37 PM EDT

      After forty years it would seem to me some of these laws should have had a statute of limitations...Also why tear every structure down? If they have stood the test of time then what the hell? He's not selling tickets and endangering the public with tours. From the photo the buildings don't look ramshackle...Most businesses that have any risk at at all don't have a record as cleans as his about not having bio-hazard accidents or problems... Leave him alone..

      • 3 votes
      #1.37 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:41 PM EDT

      A sewage treatment plant?? PLEASE! If the idea of recycling your own waste sounds so terrible to you people, I can't imagine what you must think of people who allow their dogs to sh$# out in their backyard. What do you think 5 people do cooped up in the space shuttle or the space station? Hold it? No, recycling! And it's not space age science involved in recycling your own waste. If it were so hard to do naturally we would be up to our armpits in excrement from every living thing on earth, and the whole planet would smell a$$.

      More than any other factor, most residential neighborhoods restrict the type of structures that can be built on property without approval, and along with what might be taken as a F you stance whatever gov. agencies are involved is probably the reason for the situation he's in. I don't know where some of you come up with your wild conspiracy theories.

      • 2 votes
      #1.38 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:50 PM EDT

      Where I live and ALL was approved....this is no where near this guy..its ten fold more and worst.

      One owner wanted a three car garage..approved in a area for only one car garage ( matches the neighborhood just a one car garage). But since he was approved another owner wanted at 20 feet high garage..approved..now since he was approved..another owner wanted a garage to park his rig and 40 foot trailer ( like 75 feet long garage) approved. Area looks like a bunch of warehouses now.

      Money talks..BS walks..old saying but still true to this day!

      • 1 vote
      #1.39 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:18 PM EDT

      He, as with the rest of us Americans, must learn and practice this salute very well or you will end up in a work camp (or worse): Stand straight, lift you right arm outstretched, palm forward, click your heels together. This must be accomplished with perfection, as a salute to their greatness whenever you encounter any local, state, or federal official. Hoffman failed to to this in the correct manner for the very insecure county officials.

      • 3 votes
      #1.40 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:18 PM EDT

      P.S.

      Oh, yes, and you must also say either "Heil Hitler" or "Seig Heil, Mein Fuhrer". (Then too, maybe a little bribe would do--a campaign contribution.)

      • 1 vote
      #1.41 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:25 PM EDT

      You folks are paranoid -- don't you think in 40 years since his first build that it has rained?? The structures have been up for decades. Permits are required to protect us from poor workmanship and bad planning. However, nothing has happened with this guys structures, no one has gotten sick, so the government should drop it. Have him pay a back fine for permits and be done. No to demo.

      Or do you prefer the people who get permits, like my homebuilder, and then they put the roof on wrong and the electrical isn't wired correctly, yet they passed the inspection from the city or county. Good thing they paid for their permit.

      • 4 votes
      #1.42 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:32 PM EDT

      I can understand the need for permits when you build something that will affect the property or health of others such as the waste management, but when building something like a shed, or adding on to your home, things like that should not have to be approved by our government for property we already own. As long as the buildings meet or exceed code and safety values the government should have no say what we build or add to our property. I seriously doubt the founding fathers would have appreciated the government telling them you have to have a permit for that.

      • 4 votes
      #1.43 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:34 PM EDT

      The guy's stupidity is monumental. Building without a permit or inspections is dangerous. Fire hazards may exist, an open moat with recycled (grey) water is unsanitary and a breeding ground for insects and bacteria. Just because he has a "vision" does'nt give you a right to do anything against the law. And to continue to build using his silly rationalizations is just dumb. The building code is there to protect the owner and the public. How would you like to live next to his goofy experiment???

        #1.44 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:34 PM EDT

        A permit is asking permission to build, inspection means to meet minimum safety requirements, there is a difference. They are not tearing down his buildings because they don't meet safety requirements they are tearing them down because he didn't ask for permission to build on his own land. We live in America, not England, Germany, Russia, Japan, China or any other country in which government has unlimited control over the people. We should not have to ask to build on what we own as long as we are not endangering others or causing harm.

        • 3 votes
        #1.45 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:44 PM EDT

        Really good idea Pandora.

        • 2 votes
        #1.46 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:47 PM EDT

        A US Property owner has to keep the taxes paid and meet the health codes...

        Everything else is negotiable with lawyers and Engineers...

        A unpermitted septic system - has to be REMOVED, fines paid, and environmental damage fixed. Prior to a new system being installed and inspected, if the property/site can pass a current perk test...

        The number of bedrooms allowed is dependent on the registered size of the septic system. Commercial properties usually have to have drinking water from a city/county source...

        Unpaid taxes can result in loss of the property, no matter what the property value or the amount of taxes due...

        ALL of these issues have to be rectified prior to selling the property...

        In other words, you do not own the property to do as you wish... As in most countries...

          #1.47 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:03 PM EDT
          Reply
          Comment author avatarTheOverlordExpand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

          What it demonstrates is that this is anything but a "free country" anymore. I'm not saying I would want my neighbor building all that stuff in his yard but it is also apparent that we live in a dictatorship with only the illusion of freedom. Rules are needed but we have shifted to the point that we more closely resemble China than the US of our founding Fathers. If you think about it the only freedoms we have is to decide between McDonald's or Burger King, super-size or regular, Democrat or Republican, left or right, right or wrong... very few real freedoms still exist in America.

          • 48 votes
          #2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:13 PM EDT

          Good post, Overlord. I'd also like to add that the trend in America is the desire for less freedom - notice the popularity of Housing Associations and the number of people willing to be subjugated by them.

          • 29 votes
          #2.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:21 PM EDT

          One of the main things my wife and I looked for when we bought our house was the LACK of any HOA. Common sense rules are one thing, but most HOAs now days go way to far in charging for nothing but enforcement of rules so restrictive that you can't actually do anything to your house or property any more.

          One HOA in our area actually has laws about having trees on your property. According to them, if you lose a tree due to damage or disease, you have one year to replace it with the same type of tree of equal value. If you don't they assess a fine of $250 a month until you do. The kick in the head is: The housing development was once a forest of trees. The developer came in, clear cut everything, then put an average of 3 trees on 2 acre lots once they were done. So the homeowner now has to replace trees that the developer put there in place of trees that had already been there before they got there.

          How stupid is that?

          • 34 votes
          #2.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:41 PM EDT

          We too avoided such places when looking for a home. You pay monstrous fees for someone to tell you what to do and how to live. Sorry folks, that's just plain NUTS.

          Some of these places even tell you what kind of car you can drive ... even if you have a garage to put it in!

          • 24 votes
          #2.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:59 PM EDT

          I could not have said it better myself, Overlord.

          • 13 votes
          #2.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:01 PM EDT

          Overlord,

          I agree that there are very little freedoms left in this country. I can see both sides of this situation because if he tried to follow the rules he probably would have a very hard time getting permits and/or fees to have human waste floating around and doing these experiments to better accomadate this world we live on. Then on the other hand it seems he is trying to be ecological minded and make the world a better place for the next generations. To bad the big man has most of us by the balls and we dont realize it.

          • 12 votes
          #2.5 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:05 PM EDT

          Overlord - sounds more like overload. Reflect, for a moment, as to what you gleened from a story about an eccentric guy who flips off the County. Not a "free country" - a dictatorship - more like China. Clearly you the "Overlord' are unhappy. How would you do it? Get millions of people to live together? To me the story was more "vengence is mine sayth the county" it's a replay of the Watts Towers in LA. Eccentric built weird unstable artistic towers stretching a hundred feet up. No permits, unsafe, tear them down he was told. Still there today now an icon of the community. I don't see this guy tearing down his art in the next 2 weeks, do you?

          • 4 votes
          #2.6 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:11 PM EDT

          UDunnoBro,

          Good post, Overlord. I'd also like to add that the trend in America is the desire for less freedom - notice the popularity of Housing Associations and the number of people willing to be subjugated by them.

          Actually I can't stand my Home Owner's Association. They do absolutely NOTHING, and complain about anything and everything. Yet if you point out to them something that is their responsibility to take care of, there is NO ACTION.

          • 12 votes
          #2.7 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:26 PM EDT

          I could not agree more with all the posts about HOA's. It's staggering how many people willingly turn over control of their own property -- and then pay cold hard cash -- just to have some group of "beady-eyed ol' biddies" (to use my grandfather's sterling phrase) crawl up their backsides and pass judgment on everything from outside lights, to porch decor, home improvements, grass height, holiday decorations, flowers, window treatments and more. And if a majority of them decide the common areas need an upgrade, well, just shut up and open your wallet.

          And many of those who willingly submit to this kind of treatment scream the loudest about "socialism" in Washington.

          Staggering. Absolutely staggering.

          • 8 votes
          #2.8 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:07 PM EDT

          My HOA once tried to put a lien on my house because I had white rocks in the garden. 20+ houses had such rocks so we added them, then the HOA cracked down, sending nasty letters to everyone. We buried our white ones but not some gray ones but told them what we'd done and sent photos. Six months later they checked, decided "not good enough", and instead of just telling us, fined us $100 for each of the first three months, then $25 a day after that.

          Did they tell us then in October? No. November? No, while charging us another $25 a day and we had no idea. In December? January? In February I finally got a cryptic bill for $5500 and asked why but they never called back. In March, ten months after I told them it was done, they sent us a "Notice of Intention to Put Lien on Property" for in excess of $6500 for "unpaid fines" they hadn't even told us about. They were going to take my house, evict us, destroy my credit rating, cost me my security clearance as a result, and then my job that requires that clearance. All for BS that could be solved with a letter, stamp, envelope, and a $4 bag of mulch to bury the rocks with.

          And when I reacted in outrage, only then did they finally tell us they weren't happy with us not covering the GREY rocks that weren't even mentioned in the original complaint.

          True story. No joke.

          • 10 votes
          #2.9 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:11 PM EDT
          Comment author avatarmj-1451595Expand Comment Comment collapsed by the community

          How stupid is that?

          Not very. First, I'm glad I don't live near most of you. I'd have to hunt you down. This is a bit like smoking. Your freedom to do what you want ends where my nose begins. Which means if I have to look out my window at your eyesore, I'm gonna be angry.

          If you'd like to build a wall around your property so I don't have to look at your yard full of junk cars and religious icons then I'm happy for you to do exactly what you want. But as I have to go outside and be offended by your complete lack of taste or cleanliness then I get to have a say as well.

          That's the reason HOAs exist. Because people don't want to keep their yards nice and tidy and neat, and keep their house up, then be forced to live next to someone with pieces falling down and yards full of dandelions with trees uprooted and rotting. They also don't want to subjected to your idea of what looks cute like big ceramic ducks in clothes and madonnas and banners and sofas and televisions on the front porch.

          I conclude from what many of you have said, you fall into one of these categories. Because if you did not you'd understand quite well why there need to be rules.

          • 3 votes
          #2.10 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:14 PM EDT

          mj, how very short sighted.

          I'm offended by homosexuals. I'm offended by by rap music, bible fanatics, and overbearing, interfering punks like yourself that want to make idle threats. I have a right to live like I want just like those that offend me. We have freedoms in this country that do not include the right 'to not be offended'.

          • 10 votes
          #2.11 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:24 PM EDT

          "but it is also apparent that we live in a dictatorship with only the illusion of freedom"

          So because this guy ignored the legal requirement to get permits for property improvements, this is a dictatorship with the illusion of freedom? He chose to live there, a tacit acceptance of the municipal code and permitting process. No dictator MADE him live there. No dictator told him he couldn't make those improvements, only that he had to obtain permits to do so.

          Permitting is required to ensure that improvements made by property owners are not a danger to themselves or their neighbors. This is not an example of a small hero being oppressed by the big evil government (and I'm saying that as someone who is strongly against big government), no matter how much you want to spin it that way. This is a guy who broke the law for two decades straight, creating potentially hazardous sewage 'treatment' facilities on his property.

          • 4 votes
          #2.12 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:25 PM EDT

          Yes, HOAs and county regulations can be a big pain--but do you like the idea of living next door to drug dealers with a meth lab in the back room, with loud music going day and night, with old cars and crap all over the yard? I don't like that idea, and that's why I live in a community where we have some rules in place.

          Do you like the idea of untreated sewage flowing onto your property from your neighbor uphill because he has a "creative idea" that we don't need sewers and septic systems? I don't, and that's why I like county regulations.

          Everyone thinks our precious freedoms are being eroded until someone moves in next door who has really bad ideas...

          • 3 votes
          #2.13 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:40 PM EDT

          I am guessing no one read the entire article and looked at his systems. His system is more efficient then MOST other methods of waste processing, he filed for a permit and was denied because it wasnt a "proven" system. At that point he knew his design worked and knew the government wasnt going to approve his systems. He had no close neighbors until recently. If you knowingly move yourself next to a place that you dont like and then proceed to complain about what he has done, then dont MOVE in next to him. His system has been used in countries with no septic and sewers for decades as a green method of waste disposal but the city government refused to take that into account either. It simply wasnt how they did things there and that was the final word. Now after 20 years they throw a fit about it.

          • 4 votes
          #2.14 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:00 PM EDT

          If this guy had lived somewhere remote, and had this many innovations on his property, 60 Minutes would be doing a story on him and his creativity. As it is, he lived within the jurisdiction of "the powers that be."

          Hope he can keep his home! Shoulda paid the permit fees - although he wouldn't have gotten a permit for many of his ideas.

          • 2 votes
          #2.15 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:01 PM EDT

          @JayEll

          In response to your post 2.13, how would an HOA rectify any of the examples you listed? For every one of those things, you would call your local police station's emergency or non-emergency line and have them come out to rectify a problem with illegal production and distribution of narcotics, disturbing the peace, reckless endangerment, and destruction of property.

          Of all the examples you gave, the only thing your HOA would be able to address would be cars and such all over the yard. Even then, it would probably be an uphill battle if all those cars are legally owned and registered.

          • 3 votes
          #2.16 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:01 PM EDT

          Wrong overlord, conservatives are more quick to forbid behavior and activities in the name of God and self-righteous morality rather than allow them within reason - i.e. regulate them. Which society has more freedom - that which you can buy alcohol once you reach 21 or that which prohibits alcohol altogether? Clearly regulating alcohol allows more freedom to choose, but not complete freedom because we as thinking creatures understand that would be irresponsible. Regulation allows more things to exist within boundaries. The right would would rather tell people NO whereas the left would rather say YES, but with exceptions. The exceptions are regulations. The left is undeniably the more tolerant than the right economically, morally, and socially. It is clear in almost every aspect of the conservative political platform and the right is continually critical of the left for being more accepting of a broader range of behaviors and actions. The kicker is that the left understands that being tolerant requires responsiblity. The right would rather just patently say no - often clearly demonstrating intolerance and fear of anything different - and thus avoiding having to think about how to manage things. How's that for irony - the right spouts freedom and founding fathers while the left actually works to allow more freedoms. Incidentally, most constitutionalists I've talked to know nothing about the Constitution or the founding fathers and the role of historical context, apparently so dim that they completely fail to understand that today's America is nothing like the founding fathers could have imagined governing. It's amazing they got so much right, but it rediculous to believe that everything they said and did would be 100% appropriate in today's world. This is why we have constitutional amendments - to adapt. It's also ironic that those who seem to hold the Constitution in such awe are also the quickest to ignore or flout it at state and local levels as if the Constitution they hold so dear doesn't apply to them.

          Look up definition of "dictatorship" - who is the dictator in this case? America has no dictator - only a corporate oligarchy and the new religion is the economy. Republicans support the very same rich people that work against the interest of the middle class and the poor. Duped on a massive scale. Biting the hand that feeds them while a few people laugh all the way to the bank.

            #2.17 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:05 PM EDT

            Permits are nothing more than centuries old money making schemes. All cities have them, lately when cities start running short of funds one of the first things they do is get the "code enforcement" (sit-on-their-ass) cops into motion, next thing is initiate red-light, and speed cameras to pump up their revenue. Pathetic, but they have been raping people like this for centuries.

            • 2 votes
            #2.18 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:32 PM EDT
            Reply

            Like Mike Holmes always said, " If you don't get a permit, then somethings not legit!"

            Now, $200,000 dollars in fines later, I believe the Visionary is starting to understand the wisdom of this.

            Yer Pal Always,
            Thee

            • 2 votes
            Reply#3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:19 PM EDT

            The problem with your logic is the homes Holmes deals with are those where work is done by a contractor not yourself. I bet his plase is built like a brick s#$t house...I forgot...he really has one so to speak...

              #3.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:20 PM EDT
              Reply

              This guy may have some good ideas, but nothing new. What he is going to discover is that Mexifornica is in dire need of cash, so no local judge is going to allow him to continue with his 'ideas' without getting the proper permits and paying the fines up front. Some 'visionaries' who have intelligence seem to lack common sense and this is one of those cases.

              • 7 votes
              Reply#4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:26 PM EDT

              I don't really have any serious thoughts on this but would suggest that those commenting on the horrendous health hazard he's creating letting worm's digest his and his wifes waste is a little silly. In any neighborhood there's probably hundreds of cats, dogs and wild animals doing it every day in that neighborhood.

              • 1 vote
              #4.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:30 PM EDT
              Reply

              Another example of how we are slaves in America to the gov't.

              He's not created an ecological problem, he's created "art" on his property, leave him be.

              Say he planted Arbor Vitae bushes and did the same creations, wouldn't all be as fine as paint?

              Leave him be as he's paid his blood money in interest on his mortgage (where's that money come from again? The Fed gov't) and his local taxes.

              Leave him be.

              • 16 votes
              Reply#5 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:28 PM EDT

              6 deleted, Indigo-Rage calling for the death of every 'beaurocrat'. Don't advocate for killing everyone in a profession. Not good for discussion.

              You're suspended for a week for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.

              • 8 votes
              #5.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:34 PM EDT

              Sounds to me like he's created unregulated sewage treatement facilities, potentially hazardous to the community. . .but I guess that's the problem with 'art'. . .it's in the eye of the beholder. If you want to paint this guy as a hero down-trodden by the evil govt., then it's art. But that fails to take into account that his neighbors don't deserve to be subjected to the health hazards his 'visions' may pose. You see, while his 'green' ideas sound great, and 'sustainability' is a huge buzz word these days (especially in Cali), there's no guarantee that just because he pursues these goals, that he has achieved them safely.

              • 4 votes
              #5.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:31 PM EDT

              Sewage treatment facility implies that he is a trying to treat large amounts of sewage for a specific purpose. It's a spin term that seem to be common in this discussion to try and make it seem like a larger threat than what it is. There are two people using his "waste disposal system". That does not qualify it as a facility. It qualifies it as a system, an experiment, an idea, or a creation but facility... I don't think so.

              • 5 votes
              #5.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:04 PM EDT

              County, State, federal or city permits is all about the money & govenment control. A few people get together and decides what they think is best for their little group then charge the people to contol lives & their feedoms.

              If society is truly serious about natural & environment I am surprise the EPA, DEQ didn't help him with permits just to study his ideas. Why must we be a chemical producing society which harms the rest of the environment just for human convience.

              • 5 votes
              #5.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:05 PM EDT

              Derek-1859241

              You know nothing about the specifics of this case so why even comment on specifics? Idiocracy is happening. Critical thinking is on a death spiral.

                #5.5 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:08 PM EDT

                "Sewage treatment facility implies that he is a trying to treat large amounts of sewage for a specific purpose. It's a spin term that seem to be common in this discussion to try and make it seem like a larger threat than what it is."

                There's no implication. It's a facility for treating his sewage. It's not a 'spin term', it's calling it what it is. However, your very attempt to paint that as a 'spin' is in itself a transparent attempt to spin this as less of a threat to his neighbors than it could very well be.

                • 2 votes
                #5.6 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:52 PM EDT

                "Permits" are more about raising revenue than protecting the public.

                • 2 votes
                #5.7 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:00 PM EDT

                That is opinion, stated as fact. Do you have non-anecdotal evidence to back up such a claim?

                  #5.8 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:26 PM EDT

                  Definition of permit- to allow- it is also the root of the word permission. To gain a city permit is to ask if you may do something and to gain that permission you must pay for the right. So in essence you are paying the city government for the right to build something on property that you own. Asking someone else if it is OK for you to do something on your private property.

                  Inspection- to view- to check- to look at intensely. Inspections are what ensures that buildings and such on private property meet minimum safety regulation. Minimum safety regulations ensure that what we build on our property causes no harm to anyone else or ourselves.

                  They are tearing him down because he didn't ask permission to build on his property, and that's not right. I don't care how you spin it, this country was built by men who left their countries to get away from governments that controlled their every move, told them who what when and where, and now we have the government that we built doing it to our citizens here. When do we stand and say no? I am not saying that inspections are not important, they are, and they should be done throughout the building stages, but to have to ask permission to build is wrong if the builder owns the property and is causing no harm to anyone or anything else.

                  • 1 vote
                  #5.9 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:41 PM EDT
                  Reply

                  Reminds me of the time I went outside one day and a stranger was in my back yard. I asked what he was doing with phone in hand while calling the police. He told me he was from the county assessor's office looking to see if I had made any improvements to my home so taxes could be raised.

                  • 12 votes
                  Reply#7 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:32 PM EDT

                  Had a similar discussion with an assessor in our county. He wanted to wander our property to see if we've made any "improvements" since we moved in 10 years ago. I asked him if I could see a concise list of the items the county considered to be "improvements" so I could save him a trip? His answer was "no, the county doesn't have such a list, they rely on assessors to determine what's an improvement and what isn't."

                  Long story short, he didn't answer my questions about did I get a reduction in my taxes if I let fallen trees stay on the property, if I don't rake up the leaves from the 50+ trees in the back of the property every year, if I don't wipe out all the invasive weeds that are taking over the back third of our property from the county's property behind us that they don't maintain...

                  Needless to say, he didn't get access to our property. But, funny thing... about two months later a letter from the county arrived that contained an itemized list for me to fill out to indicate what was on the property and what condition it was in.

                  • 15 votes
                  #7.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:47 PM EDT

                  The government has a number of easements they can use to go onto private property without permission. Right now, the road in front of my house and being excavated and sewage upgrades are being put in. My front yard has workers walking on my yard, and laying equipment on the grass. They are drawing markers with orange paint on my property.

                  I don't care, but even if I did I can't trespass them. They posted proper notice. If you ever want to feel scared about losing property rights, search for the term "eminent domain" sometime. None of this is new, of course. I see a few posters bemoaning rights being taken away, but nothing has changed.

                  • 1 vote
                  #7.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:01 PM EDT
                  Reply

                  Personally, I liked the whimsy of some of the designs, but am I the only one who thought about mosquitos breeding in the standing water? Some permits have a place because of 'common good' considerations, like leach lines in a septic, etc. Not every single thing is about 'freedom'. If it were, it'd be called anarchy.

                  • 13 votes
                  Reply#8 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:49 PM EDT

                  No, you're not the only one. I knew someone who thought he could just dig ponds on his land and then let them sit without any treatment or insect control. He ended up with a stinking mess that bred mosquitos like mad. And, they can fine him all they want--but he has no money. Oh, and I think he owed property taxes as well. People like this are not creative, they are off the wall and out of touch.

                  • 3 votes
                  #8.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:30 PM EDT
                  Reply

                  In this case ignorance is no excuse - red flagged for 20 years - he is the perfect example of being smart/dumb or dumb/smart take your pick.

                  Incorporate the property into a tourist attraction and charge admission.

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#9 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:50 PM EDT

                  While the information provided is scant, the owner's ideas sound promising and the pictures look intriguing.

                  Perhaps the community could:

                  1. Realistically attempt to assess the existing or potential value of the owner's inventions, including those he may still invent, that is, "not throw out the baby with the bath water."
                  2. Encourage and perhaps help the property owner relocate his experiments to a better suited property, zoned appropriately.
                  3. Seek community and other input for (a) zoning variance(s) for his current property.
                  4. Objectively attempt to find out why the owner doesn't like or want to get permits. There may be very addressable reasons, e.g., personality conflicts, and some changes at the permit office may be in order.
                  5. Avoid confiscating what may well be the very valuable intellectual property rights of the owner.
                  6. Double check that there aren't any parties to the dispute that have ulterior motives.
                  7. Consider that the U.S. sorely needs inventors and their inventions to sustain its technological prominence into the future. Properly managed, this situation may potentially spawn a new model at a community level that stimulates and incubates inventions from entrepreneurs to do that, reaping big rewards for this community and the U.S. as well.

                  Perhaps this article will get some outsiders involved who have the business, technical, and professional resources to better assess and deal with the particulars.

                  (c) 2012

                  • 7 votes
                  Reply#10 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:53 PM EDT

                  although your suggestions are sound, it requires the thought process from the very people who issue permits etc. in other words city/county/state officials..........good luck with that.

                  • 5 votes
                  #10.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:46 PM EDT

                  I don't agree that lifeisadimension's suggestions are sound. I think some of them are off the wall. The logic defies reality--people don't behave this way. Personality conflicts at the permit office?? Really? For 20 years? Doubtful.

                  • 1 vote
                  #10.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:47 PM EDT

                  Depends on the place JayEll. My mother grew up in a very small town, well Village now. The same assessor has been checking property since she was a little girl forty years ago and he had been doing it a while then. I give this example because small towns and suburbs are different from city in that elected officials, and hired workers, are rarely turned over. This guy could very well have a 20 year feud with someone at the permit office over some conflict from his first attempt to get a permit. It happens all the time in small towns and is not that far fetched at all.

                  • 2 votes
                  #10.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:09 PM EDT

                  they dont want back yard inventors because they cant make money off of them if hes not making a big company rich hes a rebelious person if he is making a company rich though hes a productive member of society and people do think this way its just that they have to get a permit and then a permit for the permit and bend over and pay out the ass for them and some people like this guy dont care about permits and does his own thing then they charge him 200000 for being a free thinker

                    #10.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:00 PM EDT
                    Reply

                    You people voted these people into these jobs. Nobody hardly goes to the administrative meeting. Then everybody complains.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#11 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:58 PM EDT

                    don't know about there, but around here your hired not voted on. so it comes down to who ya know, not what ya know.

                    • 5 votes
                    #11.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:48 PM EDT
                    Reply
                      Reply#12 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:23 PM EDT

                      hey i can give ya free land right here!!!.....course the house sitting on it will cost ya about 95K .....but hey I will throw in the land ABSOLUTELY FREE !!!!!!!..............................:)

                      • 1 vote
                      #12.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:52 PM EDT
                      Reply

                      What happened to DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM? We never had it in the first place. A true test of democracy is when you can do whatever you want with your personal property. We live in a police state and most people don't even know it. There was more democracy in the former Communist Russia then there ever was in the West. If you want to test your democracy just put a shovel in the ground of your back yard and you will see what will happen to you!!! The government will descend on you with all its minions like flies on a pile of horse dung.

                      • 5 votes
                      Reply#13 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:34 PM EDT

                      Technically, the United States has NEVER been a true "democracy" unless you consider a republic to be true democracy. From it's outset, the US has been a Republic formed under a constitution that delegates certain authorities to act in the best interests of the populace.

                      At best the US, at some point in time, had a representative democracy where a small group of elected individuals are enabled to make decisions based on the needs/desires/wishes of those who elected them. However, as time progressed, the US government evolved/devolved into a representative form of democracy where the needs/desires/wishes of those who can best afford access to elected representatives are satisfied. Very simple difference: Now only those who have enough money to invest in the campaigns of these "elected" officials get their needs/desires/wishes represented.

                      • 3 votes
                      #13.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:53 PM EDT
                      Reply

                      This is the biggest accounts of hypocrisy in America-- yea yea land of the free blah blah blah--This is his property he has the right to do on it what he wants as long as it does disturb others from their own enjoyment of their property.. this guy sounds super interesting and instead of rewarding innovators we fine them. We need a new government stat, this one is just not working for America anymore-- from insider trading and corruption in congress to police brutality-- we need to scrap this and start from scratch. I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT GIVES IT LEGITIMACY??

                      • 5 votes
                      Reply#14 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:52 PM EDT

                      ". . .he has the right to do on it what he wants as long as it does disturb others from their own enjoyment of their property.."

                      You don't think an un-permitted sewage treatment system might. . .just MIGHT, disturb his neighbors from enjoyment of their property? Really?

                      • 6 votes
                      #14.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:34 PM EDT

                      Government is a social contract with the people. We agree to surrender some of our absolute rights (i.e. anarchy) in exchange for protection of our natural rights and safety. It's called a civilization, and absolute freedom can't work when you have any sort of society.

                      • 1 vote
                      #14.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:08 PM EDT

                      yashmak, you keep going on and on about the "sewage treatment" as though it's a big, stinking mess from many people. The article suggests he is using TRIED and TRUE composting methods that have been demonstrated through research to be far less damaging to the environment than conventional "septic" (i.e. "wet") systems most communities happily permit! Do a little research instead of making uninformed assumptions based on what you perceive as "normal". "Dry" composting systems DO NOT contaminate ground water ... something conventional systems routinely do in flood situations ..., DO NOT produce odor when correctly managed (ask any gardener with a good compost pile)... have you ever smelled a flooded/overflowing conventional system???... and they DO produce biologically rich humus. They are by far healthier and cleaner than conventional systems in the U.S. Europe has used such systems on a wide scale for years. Heck, water is far too precious in many areas to waste it flushing perfectly good humanure down a toilet. Sometimes, what we see from our sheltered, "modernized" little bubbles as "progress" is anything but. Wet septic systems are such an instance.

                        #14.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:22 PM EDT

                        You think the waste created by 2 people is even a drop in the bucket to the hundreds of cats, dogs, squirrels and every other wild animal that are abundant in every town? Or would you also require the animals get a permit?

                          #14.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:35 PM EDT
                          Reply

                          I hate that county officials can come on to your property and fine you. If it isn't an eye sore and doesn't bother your neighbors, then whatever. I'd kick their ass everytime they stepped foot on my property. Put up no tresspassing signs that say intruders will be shot, or maimed.

                          • 5 votes
                          Reply#15 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:52 PM EDT

                          And that will put you right in jail.

                          The man described in this story is one of the worst and most dangerous types. He'll trash his property, and that of everyone living "downstream" of him. We need regulations to prevent exactly this kind of lunatic, ill-informed "improvement."

                          • 4 votes
                          #15.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:18 PM EDT

                          I have a house in an unincorporated part of Wake County (Raleigh), NC. Two weeks after I moved in, the county animal control officer stopped by to tell me a neighbor had complained about my dogs barking. He listened for an hour for three days running. Never heard a thing.

                          He also told me the neighbor was kind of a kook - complaints every week about someone for something. I suggested that the neighbor find a hobby and the AC officer agreed to pass that on. Never had a complaint after that.

                          BTW: the officer was courteous and professional. He has been by since on his annual rounds of the neighborhood to check for current rabies tags. Always a pleasure to see him.

                            #15.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:16 PM EDT

                            I have a friend in Eastern NC that has posted his property. Over 50+acres with a landing field & hanger w/aircraft, dug fish ponds, horses, cows, surounded with a electric fence and the buildings inside a chain link fence w/locked gates ...

                            "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again."

                            The sign has been there for YEARS. When I worked for the Census, this sign was mentioned, and I told them I would collect any information needed. I have known this person for 35+years...

                            He has built on his property, but in NC, farmers are not required to have permits for non-residential structures. And he has escorted both the building inspectors and Tax assessor OFF of his property...

                            He is the only guy I know that has walked into City Hall with his weapons strapped on, and paid his taxes. The POLICE did NOTHING and he personnel knows most of the city officials and POLICE Chief...

                            You just need to know the Laws involved, pay the taxes, and know the right people...

                            A large contractor, now a retired multi-millionaire, told me it was easier to pay the fines. Than wait for the inspectors/paper work, due to the labor expenses from work stoppages. To by-pass the building inspector, you just need a Engineer to sign-off on the plans...

                              #15.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:36 PM EDT
                              Reply

                              Screw the beurocrats - stand your ground.

                              • 5 votes
                              Reply#16 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:27 PM EDT

                              While I agree with your statement and I am pleased he is not my neighbor his art looks like crap. Tacky. They will get their money one way or another and I do not think he will be pleased with the results.

                                #16.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:42 PM EDT
                                Reply

                                County officials didn’t see it that way. His fines have run up to over $200,000, and he’s been ordered to tear down all 30 of his illegal structures by Aug. 1.

                                translation; ...we didnt get our cut.

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#17 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:39 PM EDT

                                I'm sorry, but I'm for if you own the land you should be able build what ever you want. Its your land Period... Being told you need permits and permission to build X, Y, and Z to me means I don't own the land I'm leasing it.

                                • 6 votes
                                Reply#18 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:46 PM EDT

                                Have you ever heard of environmental protection? But perhaps you don't care about human waste as runoff.

                                Besides, let's talk about hoarders who fill their house and property with waste and crap and dead animals. Do you think that's OK? What if they have minor children living with them--still OK? What if the runoff from their land is coming onto your land--what would you do then?

                                Everyone thinks the government should stay far away until the problem moves in next door--then suddenly there oughta be a law...

                                • 7 votes
                                #18.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:22 PM EDT

                                Good post JayEll. It's like people here only read as far as 'visionary', and immediately made up their minds about the whole story. If my neighbors started building experimental sewage treatment systems in their backyard, I guaran-freakin'-tee you I'd be calling code enforcement on them and verifying they'd obtained permits right away.

                                • 2 votes
                                #18.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:37 PM EDT

                                And yet, you both assume that he has created some kind of health hazard. We don't gererally pass laws on "what if" basis. If he creates a health hazard, you can take police action ala cease and desist.

                                Chemical/biologic in-ground disposal units are widely available for dog droppings. Would you ban those? I have never heard of them creating a problem.

                                • 1 vote
                                #18.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:34 PM EDT

                                JayEll-1204918: Once it affects your land or comes onto your land then that's when there rights end and your begin.

                                • 1 vote
                                #18.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:57 PM EDT

                                "And yet, you both assume that he has created some kind of health hazard."

                                No, I don't assume that. But I do know that if he'd gotten his plans permitted in the first place, there wouldn't be any question about it. We'd know. Because he'd be following the health code and applicable building codes.

                                Instead, because he flouted the law, the question. . .. the legitimate concern, EXISTS. . .and it's not the fault of the government, it's the fault of the 'visionary'.

                                • 2 votes
                                #18.5 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:59 PM EDT
                                Reply

                                Do people still think they own their property??? Offend the government or fail to pay off the government and you will find who actually owns your property. They may let us live on it and pretend its ours but step out of line or fail to pay and they will always show you who controls it all.

                                • 4 votes
                                Reply#19 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:46 PM EDT

                                Yes, because gol-darnit, the government shouldn't stop me from building a sewage treatment plant in my backyard if I fell like it!

                                Sheez.

                                • 3 votes
                                #19.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:38 PM EDT

                                OK, I pay property taxes. In exchange, I get a fire deparment, a police department, water treatment, sewage treatment, and many other services that I would not be able to provide for myself except at a higher cost.

                                I pay a condo fee. In exchange my lawn gets mowed every week, the street in front of my house gets repaired, my water bill is paid, and I have a swimming pool and a clubhouse to use whenever I like. In addition, my neighbors aren't allowed to trash their property or tear down cars in their front yards.

                                Seems OK to me.

                                • 2 votes
                                #19.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:03 PM EDT

                                JayEl -

                                Your choice to live in condo and pay for all those services. Many of us live where a well provides better and chaper water; where a septic tank provides perfectly adequate and cheaper sewage handling. We mow our own lawns, provide for our own garbage disposal, etc.

                                Don't expect everyone to want to live your lifestyle. Seems fair to me. (Also have very limited covenents that preclude torn-down cars in the front yard. Neighbors would take care of trashed property issue without needing HOA or governmental interference.)

                                  #19.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:53 PM EDT

                                  "Don't expect everyone to want to live your lifestyle."

                                  Based on his posts, I don't think he expects that. I do think he expects his neighbors to follow existing permitting law though, to ensure that whatever improvements they make on their property do not created a nuisance or hazard for his neighborhood.

                                    #19.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:02 PM EDT

                                    From Jay-el's earlier post:

                                    "The man described in this story is one of the worst and most dangerous types." Really? Hasn't met many dangerous types has he?

                                    II'm not advocating for the guy not paying for permits, and I don't have too much sympathy for him on that count. I do agree with many posters that local governments and HOA's are overbearing and very anti-creative.

                                      #19.5 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:21 PM EDT

                                      I am just giving an example of how the taxes and fees a person pays benefit that person, as well as the community. Nowhere did I say everyone should live the way I do.

                                      You have a well? Good! I hope you also have water quality tested regularly. You have a septic system? Good! I hope you have regular maintenance on it. I assure you that for years I did mow my own lawn and haul my own trash to the town collection center. Yashmak is right--I expect people to play by the rules that are in place to protect everyone, not just go by their own wacky ideas.

                                      I stand by my statement that this man is one of the worst and most dangerous types, because obviously he has read a book or two and now thinks that he knows everything and doesn't need to check with anyone. And, he's been doing it for 20 years. His property should probably be condemned.

                                        #19.6 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:30 PM EDT
                                        Reply

                                        Sure glad I don't live next door to this visionary of monstrosities. The county should just have him build a fence high enough to hide all this experimental cra* so his neighbors are spared from looking at it. And it should be demolished when he dies. And he should have to pay taxes for all those capital improvements. Laws are made for the general good. This stuff is a mess.

                                        • 3 votes
                                        Reply#20 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:57 PM EDT

                                        Tear that crap down. He is a moron.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        Reply#21 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:03 PM EDT

                                        "We hope the hearing officer’s decision will have a positive side by motivating David to turn over a new leaf and begin to improve his property"

                                        Just what the heck does this person think he's been doing? He's trying to improve his little piece of the planet, the way he's sees fit, and they don't like it? Building permits, property taxes, and the whole lot of it should prove to anyone that you may pay for a piece of property but skip out on the way they want things done and they'll show you who really owns it!

                                        • 3 votes
                                        Reply#22 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:19 PM EDT

                                        HOA help prevent your neighbor from spreading out across you and other neighbors like a cheap suit !

                                        prevents one residence from having too many cars or high profile RV's ,Boats, campers or commercial trucks stored at home on the weekends and holidays.Cars being put up on blocks like a display or a pretense of being worked on but never are . Erecting high structures that cut off the view or block TV dishes. They help to control too many dogs or cats per residence. Bad neighbors ruin everyone's property values. I find people who search for neighborhoods that have no HOA or cities with poor code enforcement laws are people who are hoarders looking for a place to bring all their junk.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        Reply#23 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:20 PM EDT

                                        I have to agree. I live in a condo where we have a condo board that sees to it that lawns get mowed, plantings are kept up, and the homes aren't allowed to simply become trashy. That's why I choose to live in this community. If you are living where there is no association, your only recourse if your neighbor is out of control and impinging on your rights is to make a police complaint. And we just know how well that will go over.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #23.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:25 PM EDT

                                        primenumbers, I agreed with everything you said until the very last sentence. Why did you feel the need to insult me, just because I personally don't want to live within an HOA? That was a seriously bigoted statement, and I hope you'll reconsider it.

                                        For future reference, ANY statement of the form, "People who are (different from me in some way) are (derogatory term) looking for a place to (insulting activity)" is going to make you sound like a bigot.

                                          #23.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:03 PM EDT

                                          Sounds like a little piece of hell. Have fun with that.

                                            #23.3 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:14 PM EDT

                                            Prime is a bigot

                                              #23.4 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:25 PM EDT

                                              You all have no any idea where Lagunitsas is do you... This is a place where people go to escape society as best they can. The whole area is back in the woods of Marin. It's close to Bolinas, where they tear down the City Limit signs so no one knows where the town is. This is not you're lilly white, picket fence type of town.

                                              This man is a visionary and the only people having issues with this is the starched-white goverment workers.

                                              If you don't like this, don't live here.

                                                #23.5 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:02 PM EDT
                                                Reply

                                                what a pile of crap. visionary? don't build it in my neighborhood. my favorite is the green pool of standing water. anyone hear of public health or even mosquitoes? ugh. if this trash pile is what "visionary" means in amerika, we are well and truly screwed. maybe he could have completed one vision or hallucination before he began another? as he has ruined any value of "his land" someone else will have to pay to demolish this trash pile after he dies. our farm does not have an hoa, but there are still reasonable basic rules - no pit toilets, no homeless camps, no burning piles of rubber tires, little things like that.

                                                • 2 votes
                                                Reply#24 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:21 PM EDT

                                                You didn't read closely or understand the article did you. This is a working model of what we all have, septic, compost and waste disposal. The only issue is not that they don't work or cause issuse, because they do, but that they don't confrom to regular standards.

                                                I wish I could use grey water to water my plants but Big Goverment says no, as it doesn't meet the Friggin Capitalistic standard of making money for others first.

                                                  #24.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:39 PM EDT

                                                  Mark -

                                                  And in other areas the authorities require that all new home construction include gray-water recycling. Puzzling, ain't it?

                                                    #24.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:57 PM EDT
                                                    Reply

                                                    Looks like American's rugged individualism has been squashed by the need for conformity. Our "freedom" is just an illusion.

                                                    • 5 votes
                                                    Reply#25 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:37 PM EDT

                                                    Why would this man be allowed to build on his property the way he see's fit? He paid for it, he did the work, and he is not bothering anyone. Why the hell does the government get to stick its nose where it does not belong? Leave the guy alone, government, you have bigger things to worry about, like, oh, I don't know, massive budget issues, internal corruption on a never before seen scale, and a myriad of other issues that far supersede some guy building a tea hut on his property. Perspective and priorities, people - figure it out!

                                                    • 4 votes
                                                    Reply#26 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:42 PM EDT

                                                    They stick their nose in it because their not making any money off what you did.

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #26.1 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:21 PM EDT

                                                    How do you know he's not bothering anyone lonewolf? Just because the article didn't mention it? How do you know he's not violating health or building code? If he'd simply gotten the required permits, we'd know he isn't. .. .but he didn't.

                                                    He could very well be creating an unsanitary and possibly unsafe situation here. Identifying these sorts of things BEFORE they are built is the very reason we have a permitting system.

                                                      #26.2 - Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:04 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
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