gallup.com
Americans' confidence in religious institutions has hit an all-time low, with only 44 percent expressing a "great deal" of confidence in organized religion, according to a new Gallup survey.
This follows a downward trend since the 1970s, when 68 percent of Americans had a high degree of confidence.
Gallup cites two big blows to confidence in organized religion: 1980s scandals involving televangelists like Jim Bakker and the Catholic sex abuse scandal in the 2000s.
Perhaps as an outgrowth of the abuse scandal, Catholics lag far behind Protestants in their confidence in the church, by a margin of 10 percentage points.
But the scandals of recent decades, and the ensuing lack of confidence in organized religion, are not necessarily affecting the importance of religion in peoples' lives, Gallup finds.
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"While various sex abuse scandals involving U.S. clerics have likely played a role in Americans' growing skepticism about the church and organized religion, the decline in confidence does not necessarily indicate a decline in Americans' personal attachment to religion," writes Lydia Saad of Gallup. "The percentage of Americans saying religion is very important in their lives has held fairly steady since the mid-1970s, after dropping sharply from 1952 levels."
It's also worth noting that organized religion is far from the only institution in which Americans are losing confidence. Americans also are souring on schools, banks and television news, according to Gallup's survey.
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Leave a Comment:
Actually I'm quite confident...
That there's no sucha thing as God! hahaha!
I used to be quite confident there was no god, but in an effort to be more open-minded and honest, I readily admit that I have NO idea if there is a supreme being or not, although I strongly doubt it.
However, I am unequivocally CERTAIN that NOT ONE organized religion here on Earth is even close. None of the major religions can even begin to pass so much as the most cursory examination with logic and the scientific method.
Check out the nosedive on the chart right after 9/11. It's tough to see "god's plan" when such senseless violence affects so many innocent people.
Questions from humans to god:
Why did my 4 year old die of Leukemia?
Why did a fire destroy my home?
Why was my family killed in an earthquake?
Why did the hurricane ruin my business?
Answer from organized religion:
"God's Plan"
"God works in mysterious ways."
"God wanted your loved one by his side in heaven."
Sadly, you are right about most organized religion's answers to your "questions from humans to god". Tragically misrepresenting God as an unfeeling, unreachable, capricious, and cruel being is one of false religion's biggest contributions to turning people away from God. Just don't make the mistake of thinking those are God's answers to your questions. Far from it.
Anne-802216
I have to agree with you, too often I hear people pointing out passages in the bible and then pointing at people calling them a sinner. I always cringe and wonder how they know the mind of God.
In my opinion the bible is a guide book not an instruction manual. It is not just the abuse cases that has caused the down turn it is also the people who dare to use religion as a reason for repression and suppression of peoples rights under the law.
God is an imaginary friend for adults.
Very nice looking chart there. Helps explain why the crime rate is also at historic lows. Still a long way to go tho.
Yet, 44% still guide every waking moment of their lives based upon fairy tales?
That still frightens me.
The only thing I find amazing about this article is that it confirms that, though they are a small minority, the fundamentalist religious right would have us believe they are actually the majority of Americans. Delusion upon delusion...based on mythology.
This wasn't about whether or not people are believers, it is their confidence in organized religion, period. It's alarming to realize 44% of people have absolute confidence. So that means 44% of people are mentally incompetent. Wow.
I would take it a step further. The bible is a guide book for individuals who adhere to a middle eastern religion. As to the people who use it as justification for repression and suppression, think of how the Taliban use the Koran. Do you really see a difference?
Again, Never Stop Asking Questions and Ol doc, I know quite a few people who have nothing to do with organized religion yet still believe in God and worship in some way so the numbers are higher as far as belief goes. Confidence in organized religion and belief in God can be mutually exclusive you know.
Organized religion = terrorism
Anne and Krestov: Even tho we are supposedly made in god's image, our ability to ask questions is not to be considered? Even tho promises are broken, we are supposed to be accepting? Know this: religion exists for the benefit of the priests.
Are you sure adam henry???
I was raised Catholic. When I got married in my 40's, my then-husband-to-be and I took a "class" required to be married in the church. They encouraged us not to view pornography as it was "evil". And when they told us that doing anything to enhance the enjoyment of sex was a sin, every person in that room looked at their partner and shook their heads. These teachings firmly confirmed that I do not believe in the Catholic church.
The bible. What a joke. It was written by men to control the lives of a group of people, i.e., Christians. I believe there is a God. But I don't believe that if I don't follow some book written by a group of men 2000+ years ago that I'm going to hell. The God that I believe in is not that narrow minded. I do not believe in organized religion. I don't need it. I have my own relationship with God and that's good enough for me.
Exactly. It is there for inspirational purposes only. Bible stories are no better than the ancient Mythology that the Greeks had. They are works of fiction, based on certain historical events, created for the purpose of teaching morals and influencing society.
To anyone that believes the bible contains nothing but historical fact, I tell them that "gullible" is also written on the ceiling....
When you see people like Sherri Shepherd on TV, who publicly admitted she didn't know the world was round or that anything predated the Christians I become seriously worried about how religion has limited many people's capacity for real knowledge. It's one thing if you don't believe in evolution (somehow that is still considered debatable), but to think the entire history of mankind revolved solely around Christianity just proves how out of touch with reality some bible thumpers are!!!
I remember lines from a movie I once saw, they went something like "god is a mean kid with an ant farm" "an absentee landlord with a sick sense of humor". All in all, if there really is an omnipotent invisible being who communicates through mad men, I think I have to agree with the screenwriters.
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'" Psalms 14: 1
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19
Organized religion has been a blight on humanity. Millions upon millions of people killed in religious wars and purges over the course of history. All in an effort to answer the questions, where did we come from and where are we going? And something so very strange in that once "we" had the answers "we" wanted then anybody who disagreed with our religion, our philosophy, our mythology, well then their life was subject to forfeiture. Since studying world history in college, and I mean some pretty comprehensive stuff, I have believed that fanatic devotion to an organized religion is the greatest danger to human existence. Now even more so as our weapons of war in the hands of these fanatics far exceed the destructive potential over centuries past.
I can understand why confidence in organized religion is going down. I have no trust or confidence in any particular religion. People who claim that their beliefs and their religion is the only way scare the crap out of me. It is intolerant and breeds mistrust and hate. I, however, find spiritual people to be inspiring as they are usually kind, intelligent and serene.
Seems to me throughout history, most of the evil done has been in the name of one god or the other. And most of the worst offenders originated in the middle-east, go figure.
Written by ancient men to control people, not by some Supreme Being.
It is funny. I think people would be more spiritual if they lost their religion. Really, we don't know squat. I see science as something that explores things that we have the "God" given will and desire to explore. I see religion as something that wants to squash those desires. I will always be agnostic. I think it is the healthiest way to be. I am in awe of the compexity of the universe, from black hole to black ant. Our little brains will never solve it.
I believe in God, I just wish that organized religion did as well.
However, the only god they seem to worship is.....THE GREAT AND OMNIPOTENT DOLLAR!
Wow, from reading these responses, it sure looks like the scripture is true. Matthew 7: 13-14 For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destructioin and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Would you rather believe in God and be wrong there is no God, than to not believe God and find out there is an eternal and "just" God.....to which you enter into eternal (forever and ever) hell? Life is too short for me to wage that bet........
Bluelake,
"Organized religion has been a blight on humanity. Millions upon millions of people killed in religious wars and purges over the course of history."
That's true to some extent. However, it is also true that most civilizations of the world have been based on some form of religion or other. If you look at books on world history you will see talk of Christian civilization, Islamic civilization, Hindu civilization, Buddhist civilization, etc. Greco-Roman civilization were also based on religion. Civilizations have always used one form or another of religion as their foundation, and religion seems to be the glue that holds them together. I don't know if there has really ever been a purely secular society in the history of the world. We seem to be heading in that direction more and more, but I think only time will tell if a purely secular society can survive for long. We are entering a "brave new world". Religion may or may not be just illusion, but as R.D. Laing says, "Man cannot live without illusions".
Communism (whose leaders were/are mostly atheists) has killed more than all the world's organized religions combined. And for any of you atheist/agnostics trying to equate any war deaths on religion, don't (Hitler didn't kill Jews in the name of Jesus and Christianity for example). No war fought since the Crusades (for the Obama voters, that was a religious war between Christians and Muslims) has been about religion. Unless, of course, you want to count radical Islam's uprising and warmongering and murdering since the State of Israel was created after World War II.
Is it any wonder people have no confidence in religion, or God these days? By their own claims, republicans are His exclusive, sole representatives down here, and all them sons-a-bitchs know how to say is NOOOOoooooooooooooo. God needs to know about this too. Ain't a one of, given the chance, that wouldn't rob a crippled tumble turd of his ball, then kick his ass because the ball wasn't bigger. Just a gwaddamn shame!
@You Enjoy Myself Sounds| like gods a jackass then if hes killing for the hell of it.
Throughout history, all the killing are resulted from those in charge in the Church who interpreted the Bible the way they want.
3 ways to get power:
1. Everybody support your cause.
2. You dominate everybody else.
3. Use God as figure head to power.
Since when was the last time someone question God's words?
Doubter: that is what some of the bibles say - the 13 year old next door told me just yesterday that 'man is too egotistical for God to have made in his image (man just thinks he's good enough to have been made in the creator's image) and that the Holy Spirit is actually in the form of a dolphin and his sea is all that is celestial'. I laughed after he was out of earshot, but later (after a fifth of Appleton's), I started to wonder.... My other half says that she grew up in a religion that believed that God HAS no form or that he can take whatever form he likes (this isn't that old Greek 'cloud of vapor' thing I hope...). ? So, that kind of goes with the dolphin tail, doesn't it? I sat there thinking - where do people GET these ideas? But then - Just when DID man get that stupid idea of self-worship by claiming this 'in-the-image' nonsense? 4000 BC? Earlier?
Sorry, but I have to laugh... I was raised in C of E and they've fared a lot better than most religions (IMO) but I haven't been there in ten years, either. I met this woman at a place I worked (while she was there) who always apologized to people that she found out were gay. Turns out that when she was in the Four Square thing-er something, she was persecuting them because that's what the congregation was doing. After getting out of it she cleared her head to realise that they're people just like anyone else.
No matter what organised religions have to say, many people would be better off on their own just being themselves and not worrying if what they think isn't good enough for their pastors or someone else. Certainly there would be a lot less persecution in the world...
The problem is, Texas, that quoting the Bible to show the Bible and religion are "the" right way to live doesn't mean much. Of course any manual for a religion says my way is the only way. I'm not bashing anyone's beliefs, but just saying that logically just quoting scriptures to say someone is wrong or that s/he must believe in the same book you got that from is like me writing a book and insisting that everyone must believe it or go to a horrible place I made up called Wetrupt.
I can quote to you from my book all day about how it IS the only way to believe and insist that anything except my book is evil and people who don't follow my book's teachings and quotes are evil and trying to corrupt the wonderful good people who follow MY book. So anyone who argues that it is just a book I wrote and why can't they believe as they feel is right and live a good life, and asks why my book is the only way will be given quotes from MY book to prove that my book is the only way.
I am not saying the rights or wrongs of the value of the words in the Bible and I think that is for each of us to decide for ourselves, but just making the point that I see over and over people who are trying to say that is the only book that is right just give quotes from that same book to prove it is the only book that is right. Does that mean that if it says in my book that I (or a star or flower or stone or your Aunt Gertrude) am the only right one in the universe who gets to make the rules, and I quote only that book to prove it as in, "But I said it in my book, and since everything in my book is fact I must be right" that anyone would believe that? Please reassure me that you wouldn't...?
Yes, I know this is about faith and choices, but why does it shock anyone that others might not believe as they do? I don't expect people to believe as I do or that anyone would think my characters in my book were anything but hopefully interesting characters in a book. I have the right to believe I (or the star or your aunt) are a God, but why would I expect anyone else to accept that as fact? Why can't we all choose to believe or not and get along since I can't prove my book is right and you can't prove the Bible is all right either?
Seems to me the problem isn't that people have different belief systems, but that some in various groups want to insist that everyone live by their book and accept quotes from it as fact without question. I don't care what anyone believes, but all I ask is that no one insist that I believe all they do or make that belief system the law. And if you want me to accept that your book (whatever it happens to be) please give me other reasons that quotes from your book to back up why it is the only way.
The notion that you no longer have a religion because you denounce God is a lie. Everyone who has a belief of some sort has a religion. Everyone believes some explanation as to why things are the way they are, that is your religion. "Loss of confidence is religion" is like people have lost confidence in gravity. Its absurd.
10tacle: Just like the book you so believe in your first statement is a story. Communism does'nt even come close to the number of people killed for religious justifications and beliefs.
In every war, God is always on the side of the victor, right? History has always been written by the victor, and that includes biblical times. We are now (having started in the age of television) living in an age where we are more likely to see the reality of the situation (huge thanks to technology). That IS a big game changer, folks! It really does focus a glaring eye on things done in the name of (fill in the blank).
Just for perspective, Congress( both parties) has 12% confidence, Television news has 22% confidence, lawyers and car salesmen are in the mid teens.
Seems like God is still kicking booty!
Ol Doc, the movie was Devil's Advocate.
I believe in a Supreme Force - God or whatever you want to call it. I don't think I have to go to church for it to acknowledge me, though. It's always here and everywhere :)
This isn't due to belief in God - it's because people simply consume religion now. People go to church like it's a motivational speaker. They go to hear how special and great they are for believing in Jesus. Then they drive past the homeless in an SUV on the way back to their 7-bedroom home. Deep down they know it's wrong.
Think this poll has anything to do with MSNBC constantly berating christians? Yup!
I notice why they are only focusing on Catholic Priests sex scandals and evangelists. Hello?
Do we not have other religions in this country? Why doesn't MSNBC report about other religions and their scandals? Maybe its because they don't want you think that there is anything wrong with them and hence putting all the blame on Christians?
Like everything else, I don't fall for it MSNBC. Just recently you used the Episcopalian Church as an example for allowing gay marriages. Then used the United Church of Christ as another example to cause division.
Trying to infuriate people much?
This is a stupid poll. We all know what you are trying to do.
I can show you gravity
I am not as confident in Church leadership ... none seem to have the courage to stand up to Obama and his new Fascism. Too bad the Worlds religous leaders failed to stand up to Hitler and we got World II, The Holocaust and about 40 million dead ...
Seig Hiel Der Furher Obama Der Ghettonator
L8nite4u said
That is what is known as Pascal's Wager. Believe in God because there is no harm if you are right that there is no good and all to gain if you are wrong and there is a God.
Lots of problems with that. First, how do you know which God is the right one? You can't believe in them all because many religions make them mutually exclusive. Second is that it would not be true belief as the wager is not a convincing argument. I think that if some omnipotent omniscient being existed it would be able to call someone on false belief.
The wager assumes that whatever God or Gods of whatever religion you are thinking about are the real one(s) to worship which just plain does not work.
I wonder how the confidence in the liberal media is doing...
What I find so amazing is that most Americans would rather a pedophile like Sandusky be president of the US, but never and without a doubt could an Atheist be one. I suppose as long as Sandusky asks for forgiveness, he's GOLDEN!
Pascal's wager also assumes that God has the power to grant eternal life to all, but only gives it to the sycophants who worship him in the right way, regardless of whether they are good people or not.
Name one person that wants Sandusky to be President.
Kornfed
Perhaps you have noticed that it is largely the same population of people who reject the "liberal media", believe the report of Republican talking points on Fox, and reject scientific explanations in favor of either the Bible version or the conservative propaganda. You folks also seem to define any news that is mainstream and fact-based as liberal, which makes you a willing dupe for the propaganda machine on the right. For example, the anti human-caused global warming misinformation campaign bought and paid for by the Koch Brothers and other energy companies is considered real news by the right wing fringe.
Those without sin should cast the first stone. No?
Even we wouldn't want Sandusky to be President! This is another case of liberals making up stuff just so extreme remarks can be made.
Kind of like the same games you used to play as a kid.
The author of that quote is Bill Maher.
I have never been a strong proponent of organized religion, ONLY because religions often compete with each other touting one is more a believer than the other or they can interpret the bible better.
However, if you look to Europe where once upon a time religion has a stronger base, those countries seem to be missing compass in life. The US feels the same way the past few years. People are having a very hard time figuring out what is right or wrong. So lying is o.k. We see that every day by the media. We all make jokes about it, but it is decaying our society. A man's word must be believable regardless of religious belief and I think that is what is being questioned.
Western society has lost their core of recognizing goodness and honesty above all else. We are no longer a principled society feeling that the means justify the end.
The church IMO, even though I do not attend, should be a guide. A helpful hand. A source of encouragement. A way to meet others. Today we have a younger generation walking down the street in a crowd of friends not even talking to each other, but instead talking to others on their phones. This is not communication working well.
A poll has been taken for years asking if the US is headed in the right direction. The number keeps slipping. Losing religion isn't helping to find our way.
It's a large universe and no doubt full of surprises. The gods of organized religions too often resemble two-bit local despots. If only we could get past tribalism and treat our little planet and all its creatures with thoughtfulness and respect, a process far more complex than endless fighting.
Otherwise, our intergalactic reputation as a seedy truck stop will persist, property values will stay in the gutter, and all the cool stuff will happen someplace else.
Name one person that wants Sandusky to be President.
The same group of people who are about to vote for a Mormon.
The hate for religious people is equally destructive as the hate of religious fanatics for people of different beliefs. Recently, the mass-murder of atheists has caused some tens of millions deaths, people like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot ..., but probably only because of population growth and enhanced warfare techniques, while the religious wars were mostly fought among smaller populations with simple weapons, with a few exceptions - such as the recent Muslim/Christian conflict.
Anything fanatic is dangerous, and neither side knows anything for sure. So let the people believe in what they want.
Fred Evil and the many who gave you the thumbs up.
If there is a down time people react in two ways. Sometimes they fill the churches, and sometimes they leave the churches. It all depends upon if they really want to seek and serve God, or only want his blessings.
Churches, though sanctioned by Christ, are run by human beings. They will always be flawed because no one, yes, NO ONE totally understands who God is and what he desires us to do. he will deal with them according to what they do right and wrong in his own time.
Good luck on your search.
"God particle" interestingly the diagram is an equilateral triangle, the church symbol for the Christian Trinity.
Laminin - The protein that holds every cell together. The diagram is a cross, the electron image appears to be a cross with a man hanging on it.
These were diagramed and photographed by Science, not Christians. Is God trying to tell us something?
Good luck on your search!
Kornfed -
Wasn't Fox one of the networks that got the health care ruling wrong? Confidence inspiring I tell you...
Islam is the way to go.
Remember, only those that "accept Jesus into their hearts" get into heaven.
So consider yourself LUCKY that you were born in the time and place that you were. If, for example, you were born to a native American family before Christianity crossed the ocean, you would never hear of Jesus and thus never have the chance to be saved... sucks to be them.
Apparently God, an "all knowing" being, is cruel and mean. He "knowingly" placed people on this earth that he "knew" would never hear his name, and thus never be saved. Now why would an all powerful being create people, just to banish them to hell, with no hope of salvation? "Mean kid with an ant farm."
Organized religion IS a Business, a large profitable Corporation. How can anyone believe in Organized Religion when it has nothing to do with SPIRITUALITY OR FAITH...... It is all about PROFIT, and filling the coffers..........
You guys can go to Heaven if you want. I would prefer to go to the other place - the company is much more interesting and better parties.
DB Akron #1.55: The term "God Particle" is a misnomer. It comes from a term so many Physicists were using while looking for It for so long. "Where is that God darn particle"? Many too, were using my favorite;"where is that Goddamn particle"? Truth.
Back in my early years, 0-5, in the mid fifties, my parents told me there is no such thing as an imaginary friend to talk to.
Then every time the doors opened on the church my grand-father start the drug me there, until I was 18, to talk to their imaginary friend.
WTF !!
By the way, I still have my friend and as I have grown older and wiser I learned to stop arguing with myself.
I'm the one that loses, at those times.
t <---- OH MY a Cross! God is telling you something! ... Yeah!.... Please tell me people aren't this ignorant and stupid... :/ Btw, the concept of the cross and deities hung on them came from the Egyptians.. Nothing like a reality check!.. Yep the cross predates Christianity. But nice pointless argument and an appeal to ignorance.
It's not a matter of who, it's a what with an attached persona.. It's volcano God that was specifically worshiped in Midian, and by the shasu of YHW.. Yes we totally understand that in that era mountain GODS were worshiped.. Not a very shocking surprise.
On organized religion.. It's always been about power, control, wealth, and control over resources. There isn't a time period in organized religion to where this hasn't been true. Organized religion is just a large cult that fleeces the ignorant. Religions are entirely reliant on a position of ignorance, the preying on ignorance, the preying on human weaknesses such as fear, and reliant on absolute negatives.. :/ So do tell us what confidence we should have in this:
Psychopathic Narcissism is something to be confident about? Or should I be confident about worshiping a damn volcano? :
Gee... :/
Shonymat: You're right. His actions and behaviors are just as evil and destructive against his fellow man as Sandusky; just in a different way.
The ace in the hole believers in god have in common is no sin is unforgivable.
DB - I'm sure you know all the answers. Why don't you run for god?
Try this out can be found on Netflix Documentary Religion: Lord save us from your Followers. I think this will really help.
The more you know!
That's no ace in the hole.. Any stance from belief to non-believe can make that very argument... You're just trying to claim ownership of something or concept you simply can't lay claim to. It's like shooting blanks and then believing you actually shot off a live round, or a real bullet. All while at the same time in denial of not having done so. There is no ace in that whole just as there is no bullet in that chamber Debi.. You're shooting blanks.
Btw Debi.. I have a question for you.. How do you compete with the Pantheist GOD to which is existence itself... ??? No lets rephrase that question have you directly answer it.. .. So what you may call GOD is purely subjective in that regard anyways.. And simply put into context with this simple question:
And in this question we realize our true source of origins and why we are here. We learn its really not relevant if we had come to be from intelligent conscious processes, unconscious processes, or a combination of both... Especially when it is existence itself that governs everything including anything conscious. At the end of the day, we are simply possible because existence (reality itself) allows it to be possible in the first place..
(Psalm 14:1) 14 The senseless one has said in his heart: “There is no Jehovah.” They have acted ruinously, they have acted detestably in [their] dealing. There is no one doing good.
I say the time has come to TAX GOD! Why are the churches in this country tax free? They do make a profit, some of them are grotesque in how much they take in! They should pay at least a 10% tax, on all "donations" that they get, period! The time has come for "God" to help pay off the national debt!
DB Akron
Don't forget about the rust-stain on the wall of that run-down restaurant... it looks like the modern interpretation of Jesus. Must be God trying to tell us something.
And remember the potato chip that looked like Mary? Another sign, right?
What about the sweat stain on that old, dirty T-shirt? Looks like Jesus.
*face-palm*
I would think more killing was done in the name of country/empire than in the name of religion.
I also think that more good toward other people has come in the name of religion than in the name of atheism.
There is no doubt that the decline of the worlds civilizations is accelerating and no evidence that it's related to organized religion.
I don't attend church, but my faith in God has gotten me through many tough times in my life. Those of you that don't have faith and don't believe in God, that's your business but don't belittle those of us that do believe.
I can't believe some of the comments I have read. I believe in God with all my heart and soul and feel very sorry for those of you who don't know him! I don't believe in religion but do believe in God and Jesus Christ as the Son of Man! Don't let religion steer you away from God..
"Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God." -- Heywood Broun
"In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners." --Jonathon Miller
"It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists." --Mohandas Gandhi
"Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist." --C. S. Lewis
Not really surprising. Have you heard the representatives of organized religion talking these days?
Its all about blaming others for their problems.
And of course there is Volcanoes in which people worshiped as GOD.. Jehovah is the pronunciation of Yahweh. This was the midian god, and specifically a part of the Shasu. Moses spent 40 here according to the bible along with Jethro whom was midian priest.. You should read the rest of Psalms before posting it.
And:
Yeah Christians don't typically read their bible before extracting quotes like Psalms 14 for a cherry picking argument about "Knowledge of GOD".. It's just hilarious...
I'm an atheist anarchist pagan nature worshipper and I'm happier with my religion than I ever have been. A more peaceful world is ours. Birth control and sex for enjoyment are ours. Gradual non-violent natural human population decline is ours as utopia is ours. Fusion is ours. A million years of future human evolution is ours. Even the speed of light and an all time connective eternal vibration is ours. Or original sin and final judgment day of extinction, you decide.
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
A guy named Marx said that.
It's equally true today.
Believe as you choose and allow me the same freedom. I have a scientific logical mind. I don't believe in pixies, magic or the tooth fairy, either.
A guy named Clarke said, Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic...
At least we have some proof for that one.
I'm an atheist. I think most every person who has responded about the poll (as opposed to some of the idiots saying some amazingly bizarre things, like Republicans would vote for Sandusky if they could) is reading into it what they want, not what is there. Sound familiar? Hint: You are applying your own organized religious beliefs to the story as you analyze it.
Like the poster who says that the big drop after 9/11 came because most people would think that God simply couldn't allow such senseless violence. Uh, sure. Except this wasn't a poll about what people think God would allow or not, but whether people had confidence, or not, and to what degree, in organized religion. Wouldn't it make more sense that that big decline around that same time resulted more from the Catholic homosexual sex scandal within the church? Maybe in your mind 9/11 caused your confidence in religion to take a hit, but how about you don't apply what you felt or thought to everyone else?
Others said the bible, essentially, is optional. Well, sure it is optional, but if you want to believe in Jesus or in the God it represents, then you can't hardly say the very book which empowers both of those entities is optional. Either God commanded people to not steal, or to not murder, or to, well you get the point, or He didn't. But if the book itself is optional, then aren't such commandments as well? So does this make bearing false witness just another possible outcome among equal alternatives? Please.
The purpose of spirituality it seems to me is to consider your place in the universe, how you got here, what your purpose is. But organized religion is a social institution designed to help come up with rules which lead to civil society. Maybe the reality of this poll, and of the responses here to it, is that we have become more narcississtic, more nihilistic, more deceptive, and more anti-traditional, in part because organized religions have less influence and the people have less confidence in the ability of organized religion to give them what they want?
I'd say that what most of us want today is to be less responsible and more catered to. We didn't earn it? It's okay, someone else earned more than their fair share, so I'll just take some of theirs. I can't afford it? No worries, I will steal the money from my unborn heirs--they'd want me to have it anyhow. In short, we don't, as a society, like being told we are wrong, or that we can't have whatever it is we want just because we want it. Seems to me that is a basic purpose of organized religion.
Realist
Would that be the "good" religious people that protest military funerals? Or perhaps the "good" religious people who say that gay people need to be put inside an electrified fence so they can die off?
Maybe you refer to the "good" religious people who attended the Republican debate and chanted "Let him die!" Or the "good" Christians who mocked and boo'ed a a soldier on live television, at another Republican debate.
I guess you could be referring to the "good" Christians who call teenage homosexuals "barbarians" that need to be cured. Or the "good" Christian mother who stabbed her teenage daughter 7 times because she was gay. Or the "good" Christian church that refused to pray or visit a dying member of the church, because his death revealed his secret.
I would hope that you would not consider the child rapists occupying many churches to be "good", but I could be wrong. Or the pastor that stole money from the church, to buy multiple mansions for himself.
I suppose if your definition of "good" is actually "spreading vile hatred"... then yes, "good" religious people are doing that.
Save your "hollier than though" proclamations for someone else. I have grown up in the Christian church... I have seen the evil and hatred in the hearts of their members. I would take the compassion of an atheist over the judgmental hatred of a Christian ANY DAY.
mj,
"I don't believe in pixies, magic or the tooth fairy, either."
Maybe not. But civilization would be greatly impoverished were it not for fairy tales and fiction of all sorts. Haven't you ever enjoyed a good novel? Did you believe it was "real"? Did it matter that it wasn't?
MNSlim
Nobody owns peace, and nor is Atheism a religion. It can't be a religion as it's just a denial of the existence of a GOD. And best yet, Atheism isn't contradictory. Hence, religions that believe in a GOD are because they are Atheists too in the fact that they are suddenly Atheists when discussing any other GOD than their own... But suddenly that becomes interesting when I asked Debi about the Pantheist GOD to which is existence itself. So What is GOD without existence I ask.. Well, suddenly these Christians ect go silent because that question alone collapses their entire religion... Out goes monotheism to, especially when they beg us to believe their GOD is in and of existence, and in need of existence like everything else is. So how do they compete theologically with Pantheism? They kinda need their GOD for their GOD to even be an imaginary friend in their heads.. It's hilarious actually, because they will go insane having to deal with that very tough question.
Hence, there is no confidence in organized religion to which is corrupt on top of being self-refuting and total utter lie to begin with..
I can enjoy fairtales without believing they are real. I can even indulge in the ideas and perhaps take from them and apply them to life.. But to suddenly think imaginary things are real is just going a bit far, especially when it turns into a corrupt organized cult.
Not surprisingly, the most precipitous drop was during the Bushy years, without comparison. Cripes, he was so good for America, wasn't he, stupid TeaBaggers?
someone cant read a chart. Around Sept '01, the confidence in religion hit a pretty solid high, of 60%. It was what some people did with that organized religion over the next few months that caused it to dip to the low of 45%, about 3/4 of the way through 2002, or roughly a year after 9/11 :)
Just to set the record straight:
I want to believe in God. Or A God. I want to believe that a power higher than me created all this chaos. I want to believe there is a purpose to my existence, and that all this is not random chance. I want to believe that there is more in store for what I call my soul when my body ceases to be.
Religion makes that extremely difficult for me because everything religion preaches is in contradiction to the teachings of anything that could be termed "higher power"
If there is a higher power it is capable of much more logic than that which is attributed to those who advocate policies handed down from those mortal men who insisted that the earth was flat. If the Bible is the truth... I dont want anything to do with the force that caused it to be written, because that force is more ignorant than those who wrote it down, and that is no proper Higher Power.
All religions begin the same way. Some fellow human being says " I talked to a God and here is what he wants you to do". To spend your life obsessing about your death defeats the purpose of having a life. True morality does not arise from fear of eternal punishment or hope for eternal reward but rather from empathy for the struggle all living things endure to survive and flourish.
WyKnot,
"All religions begin the same way. Some fellow human being says " I talked to a God and here is what he wants you to do"."
That's not quite true. Buddhism does not officially teach the existence of any God. Buddhist morality is not based on the commandments of any God either.
TheJackel: Considering your belief and absolution of existence, please provide proof "existence" is not just a computer generated hologram.
And btw, I don't claim ownership over anything, but your lengthy and irrelevant bible postings surely make that attempt.
People are getting smarter, learning to THINK for themselves.
Realizing, finally, that the BuyBull is nothing more than an unprovable, mythical cult book.
Time to wake up from your slumber, shed yourself of the BuyBull and its cults, and get on with reality.
Isn't THAT the truth? Little good his BuyBull belief did this country! Thanks Dumbya, for the Bush Recession!!
Okay everyone, if there is a God, then why the hell is there reality TV and Rush Limbaugh, explain that one!
It's irrelevant if our universe is just a computer generated program. And your argument makes no sense.----> Tell me, is this supposed computer in and of existence itself?<---... Clearly we have a comprehension issue to work on here.. Existence is the totality of everything.. It's every rule, every force to cause, every bit of information, every place, and literally that of everything in total... So answer the question Debi:
Well, it's pretty difficult to create something to which your self is slave require in order to exist isn't it Debi. And that means anything of existence is bound to the rules of existence itself, and is governed by those rules. Existence determines what is and isn't possible, what you can and can not do ect.. With existence, there is no possibility of a consciousness, a being, or us.. It's that simple.. There is no GOD to existence but existence itself.
mj: "I don't believe in pixies, magic or the tooth fairy, either."
True, Mickey, but there's a big difference between enjoying the Lord of the Rings...
...and killing people, denying others equal rights, using your cultism to justify owning slaves, raping and abusing children, starting wars, brainwashing kids, and all the other filthy, disgusting things that are laid at the feet of the BuyBull cults (and others).
What your talking about is called Pascal's Wager. Basically it is an argument that states that since it does not burden your life to believe and since the reward is so great and the punishment so bad if in fact a God does actually exist then one should simply believe just to be safe.
As an atheist I have had friends and family bring this argument to my attention on multiple occasions. Being truly worried about my "eternal soul" (because they are believers in one religion or another) they inevitably ask the question in some way, "What if your wrong, don't you think you should accept God just in case?"
The issue, in my mind at least, is two fold (and while I haven't studied it extensively what little I have heard about Pascal's wager makes me believe it was meant to point out these very facts). First, in order to actually do this I would have to be untrue to myself. I would have to lie to myself daily about who I am and how I view the world. I am a skeptic, I look at all things through a lens that requires logical reasoning to back up my beliefs and understandings of how the world works. I get that some people can make a leap of faith regarding the existence of a higher power, but I simply cannot and to say otherwise would be untrue to the very nature of who I am. If a God does exist I would expect that that God would appreciate that I hold true to what that God made me.
Secondly, according to most organized religions I have studied, including Christianity which is the one being quoted most often on this thread, false belief is as bad or worse than non-belief. If a God does in fact exist, and that God is in fact actually omnipresent, and that God does in fact care if you believe in it and follow it's teachings the would not that God be able to tell if you were "believing" simply to ensure passage into some promised afterlife?
If someone truly believes that is fine, more power to them. As long as they do not attempt to force their beliefs on others (which is my issue with organized religion; something I see as different from belief) then they can believe whatever they choose. To make the argument, however, that someone should simply believe "just in case" seems to me to be an insult to all parties involved, however: the believer, the skeptic, and any God that might exist.
MacForester
Re-read the post and consider I already was aware the term was intended to be an insult to those of any faith in god.
We can defeat that too.. If you convert to Pantheism, you worship existence itself to which would be all inclusive to every supposed concept of GOD since it would be every GOD concept fictional or not.. WIN WIN!.. lol... Pascals wager is hilarious, and it's a poor argument.
Typo error:
:)
No, Rich, it wouldn't -- because it wasn't a homosexual sex scandal, it was a Pedophilia Sex Scandal.
Bernitch: "People are getting smarter, learning to THINK for themselves."
............Amen (no pun intended) that's probably the biggest problem for the Catholic Church, they are really big on education, but that teaches people to think for themselves, and when they do, they begin to realize a lot of what the church is telling them just doesn't make sense and is just a lot of BS. When I grew up, it was a mortal sin (send you to hell) to eat meat on Friday, unless you lived in Spain, where you COULD eat meat on Friday. The nuns never explained why to us, but when I got older, I realized that the cattle industry was the biggest business in Spain, so much for principles vs politics.
CuongDNguyen
Christianity was persecuted by both Romans and Jews alike until 300 AD when Constantine claimed he saw a vision of a buring cross and hear or saw the words under this sign you shall conquer. Since then, many men have come forward to use christianity as a tool to gain notoriety or power. This despite Jesus being clear that he had no part of government.
Meanwhile there is absolutely no problem with Christians voicing their political opnions. They too, are people with a right to speak their mind about what they think laws should be.
Btw, I am not saying people should convert to Pantheism.. I am using it as a tool of argument to make a point about how pointless and moot religion and the concept of god is.
Short of converting this country into theocracy under the veil of democracy. A democracy to which this nation is not.. We are a secular republic that doesn't go by popular vote.. Hence, you can't just install a theocracy on popularity since the constitution is specifically against that.
Alas Mickey, the road to enlightenment has taken many paths and spawned many sects since Gautama Buddha sat under his tree.
Some strange preacher man on TV told me that if I give him all of my money it will make me rich!
Let's play a game. Ready?
I'll give you clues and you guess who it is:
He was born on December 25th, born of a virgin.
His birth was accompanied by a star in the East and upon his birth, adored by 3 kings.
At the age of 12 he was a prodigal child teacher and was baptized at the age of 30.
He traveled with 12 disciples and performed miracles like healing the sick and walking on water.
He was known by many gestural names like "Lamb Of God," "The Light," The Truth," "The Good Shepard," "God's Annointed Son," and many others.
He was crucified, burried for 3 days, and then resurrected.
Know who it is?
Nope, it's not Jesus. Well, it could be. But he's much older than that. It's Horus, an egyption God fifteen centuries before Christianity. But these attributes could also be referring to the Greek god Attis. Or it could be Dyonisus, both who match the above characteristics with great similarity. It could even describe Mithra, a Persian God, who was all of the above and even included----get this---the day of worship being "Sunday."
Interesting, huh?
Azdad.. Horus comes to mind.. Though some of those listed don't match.. Horus wasn't born of a virgin, but I suspect that is the character you are looking for. The Egyptians often believed their Pharoahs were their GOD manifested in the flesh like the Christians believe. And well, that is where the Christians got it from.. More interesting is that olive branch crowns were used to mark these kings when placed in their tombs.. This thorn crown belief is also take by the Christians to mark the death of their supposed king "Jesus".. Most Christians don't even know that. And don't ask them about the history of the Christmas tree, or where crucifixion came from either. :/ They won't like those answers either..
Lord, protect me from your followers.
I just noticed you gave the answer lol.. I stopped at the question lol :P
Who cares what people believe I dont give a quack if any one individual believes in God, good for them,
I am confident knowing there would be days like this when people were left empty inside, let them.
cooch
Religion has been around before recorded history. Communism was born in the 1860's. Since then, Communism is head and shoulders above religious killings.
beelzebubb - post 1.42
Churches have a gag order with the IRS in exchange for tax exampt status. The agreement is wrong and government should bug out of their business.
Well, this thread is about confidence in an organized religion, and it to me is pretty difficult to have confidence in a myth or lie much less the fact it's corrupt to begin with. I don't care if someone believes in a higher being... It would be naive to suggest we are the highest beings in existence. I just don't forget what every being is governed by and limited to. That in which pretty much nullifies any sort of idea of thinking any being could be considered a GOD.. Anything that thinks it's a GOD is Narcissistic and not something I would want to hang around with anyways. Such delusions of grandeur are not something I would worship.. In fact worshiping is ridiculous to begin with.
This is wrong on so many levels. But it surely isn't shown itself to be any better.
I do not know why anybod in the thread got off on is there a god or is there not. This was a question about ORGANIZED religion. Myself I do not believe god exists but thats just e who is a prove type of person. Even though because of past experience I do not believe the fairy tales some put stock in I do not have anything against anybody who has a personal belief one way or the other, You believe becaus thats the way you think. I do no mind individuals talking to others about their beliefs but I do have a real problem with ORGANIZED religion where people al go in and become one in a belief. Then they are controlled by whomever is the so called leader.America is getting tired of many things where Organized religion and they only have themselves to blame. The have had one scandal after another they try to influence our government while getting a tax break Then you have the Islamic fundamentalists and their comparison to the way our churches are run. Believe what you want keep it at home. If you can be saved you your husband or wife and your children can say prayers at home any day or night of the week and keep you tides in the bank. There have been many Gods before in the future there will be many more after this.
Saw an article the other day that Hubble the space telescope has logged over three hundred billion stars in the universe so far so Here we sit on on indiscriminate planet in an obscure quadrant of the galaxy and one endity created all this just to create a bunch of people not smart enough to stop killing each other?
Two thoughts re: organized religion spring to mind:
If there is a god, why did he create cellulite???
Too many people are blinded by the fear of uncertainly; hence, we have cults like Scientology. Americans need to get back to being free and brave.
No way KimH 1.65. Satan did that, and lost.
Every day is a learning experience. If you don't learn something you didn't accomplish anything that day. If I let people wallow in ignorance and don't contribute what I have learned, what good is it to have learned?
You have no idea how much I cross check before posting and I don't do near enough!
mguy
I gave observations, you give ridicule. You see only the surface, I see a little below the surface. God reads your heart all the time!
*hasn't shown ^^^
Hitler being a good example of trying to create what he thought was the perfect race, or chosen people in accordance to GOD.. Their belt buckles literally stated that alone..
But we can point bad non-religious atrocities like in the case Pol Pot.. Or bad and corrupt Atheist states like North Korea.. The difference however is that these don't have religious doctrines that tell them to be this way. There is not atheist bible that says persecute Christians and establish an atheist world ect.. Some people just want to be gods, or see the world burn.. And some organizations or beliefs just want total control of everything.. Beliefs such as the Abrahamic religions to which are Theocritus by doctrine..
Satan doesn't exist either ;) This is something of interest too:
Satan: The Devil in the details!
I didn't know volcanoes could do that.. And besides, could you try and actually back up your claims vs spout them off? Maybe actually demonstrate it, and discuss by what mechanisms and then write a peer reviewed journal on it?
july cummins
If they shut up about there opinions, which only favor themselves being the god of their lives, they might actually see him.
I like the Mohandas Gandhi quote.
mj
The Communist Manifesto is the bible of totalitarians full of opiates for them to use on people.
The opiates must not work to good because without a strong loyal military communism the communist government would crumble
Oh look we have Christians collapsing posts again! Way to GO to prove even further regarding how much confidence you all have!
Do you even know where they get the imagery for their idea of the human version or the persona of their god from? Guess what, that's not original either... But I will give you a chance to figure it out ;) And laying off the LSD would be great. And I am curious, how did they identify this supposed deity and by what means?
Interesting watching people get so upset over their own beliefs... especially when someone else doesn't agree with them
If I can take a moment, I want to stop you in that thought, hold it for a sec.
Would I rather believe in god and be wrong, than not believe and be wrong? OF COURSE! The entire concept of the Christian god is fantastic, who DOESN'T want to go to Heaven and be there with your loved ones forever?!
This isn't a question of WANT.
It's called intellectual honesty. Sure, I can SAY 'I believe in god,' and if I say it convincingly enough, the xtians will stop nagging me about it, but what if I DON'T actually believe? I can proclaim it at the top of my lungs all day every day until I die, but if I don't actually believe, do you think god would know? Don't you think I'd be standing in front of him, and he would KNOW what had been in my heart, and he would know I was LYING my entire life? Do you think I would get into Heaven based on that?
Do you think lying to god would work?
If god exists and is like any of the major religions portray him, I suspect he'd see right through me, wouldn't you?
So the true question is not if I WANT to believe in god, but the conundrum of simply not having sufficient evidence to convince me of the fantastical fairy-tale-like entity. Will god take me to task for having a higher threshold of belief? For demanding greater evidence?
Let's be honest, the entirety of Christianity (and all other religions I have examined in any depth) is rife with legends stolen from other religions, with logical fallacies, and serious breakdowns in explanation. What JUST god could send someone to Hell for simply telling the truth of what they believe?
If a god would send me to hell for that, it is not a just god.
Love = Obey me and believe in me OR I'm sending you to hell? That's not love - that's called blackmail!
I'm sure some are, but many of us are just discussing this intellectually and challenging positions.. Not really sure you can really sit here and say people are getting "upset" :) .. So far nobody is threatening anyone, calling anyone names, or personally attacking each other. So as far as I can tell, that's a good thing. :)
DB Akron
Have you? Seen god? What did he look like? Was he wearing robes? Long beard? What did he say? Do you see him often?
Or are you just talking about a feeling or a voice in your head that you attribute to god? And if so...why is that "better" than other people who don't attribute voices to something outside of themselves? When I hear a voice in my head...it's me. Always. I can tell because it doesn't know a single thing that I don't know and it always believes the same things I do.
Perhaps churches should stick to saving souls and helping the old, sick and needy instead of getting involved in politics? It might help.
Amen.
Well stated.
AMEN AGAIN!
+1
I just returned from a 5000 mile, 19 state, month long road trip. I would put the car radio on AM and hit the scan button. What I heard was way too many religious station either asking for money or supporting right wing politicians, or -- more often than not -- both. These "men of God" would repeat lie after lie after lie about President Obama in particular and Democrats in general. It's not about Christianity, the golden rule or anything remotely religious. It's about money and power.
Pedestrian: well put and rightly so!
Agreed!! Politics has no place in religion and religion has no place in politics.
Also, people simply consume religion now. People go to church like it's a motivational speaker. They go to hear how special and great they are for believing in Jesus. Then they drive past the homeless in an SUV on the way back to their 7-bedroom home. Deep down they know it's wrong. There's so much good morality in the good book, unfortunately it gets brushed over. Perhaps because Jesus' teachings run contrary to capitalism?
Charlie-1915998,
Interesting. Glad to hear you made it through hell and back!
Ah yes, the classic SUV an it's way home from church, tailgating me because it should be first, zipping around me, cutting me off and then slowing down in front of me because the phone rang. Let's not forget the fish symbol, the religious radio station or saying sticker, the support education plate, and the classic baby on board sign. Isn't selfishness grand?
You are bringing politics into this argument. What would President Obama have to do with this poll? To the Republicans, we don't see him as a christian because of all his lies and for his stance on gay rights and Planned Parenthood. To the democrats, you see him as a christian but only because of his stance on caring for the poor.
Does anyone really know what christian means? Not some American-version made up kind? This question is addressed to both Republicans and Democrats.
Being an agnostic seems to be the realistic path since you can't factually prove God does or doesn't exist. If there is a God, he either has opponents who have greater or equal powers or is one mean heartless SOB and an egomaniac to boot or why the constant need for "worship" and recognition by these poor mortal beings he allegedly created. Organized religions simply don't make much sense. Every organized religion seems to have a self glorifying story dating back to ancient history, a book, a prophet or deities, rules to live by, and a list of failure to comply penalties. Once established they all turned to franchising the propaganda outlets whose best customers are the poor and uneducated. What a racket!
Unhappy-1583758,
Face it. It's like a third world country out there. It reminds me of "Hotel Rwanda" where the crazy radio personality was espousing genocide. Well, okay, they're not suggesting genocide, but the crap on those AM radios is just plain bat@!$%# crazy!! They're talking apocalyptic over health insurance that they already have. It's gotten bad.
Pat mentions the SUV- 1. tailgating ME 2. zipping around ME 3. cutting ME off 4. slowing down in front of ME - and then states "isn't selfishness grand?". Are they selfish because they are Christians or are they selfish because they inconvenienced you? If the SUV was driven by a teenage boy and had nine inch nails stickers all over the back would it have been OK and not selfish to inconvenience you? This is where the verse about removing the speck from your own eye before removing the log from your neighbor's eye is applied. I'm quite sure you never drive like a jerk, right?
Unhappy-1583758
You should change the unhappy to bigot. Why do you use your religion as an excuse to hate other people?
Unhappy:
Religion is bringing "politics" into the discussion. I have attended several churches over the last few years, searching for some sign of God. Most of the preachers, talked about political issues and encouraged their congregation, to listen to such people as, Rush!
As a recently retired nurse, ( the last six years, as a home care hospice RN) I have found that most people from all religions and all walks of life, are decent and caring.
But I must tell you of one patients daughter, who ranted and raved about abortion. I am anti-abortion myself but that is my decision. Assisted with an "abortion" after the term baby had died in the uterus. This happened many years ago and it still brings tears to my eyes. But who am I to tell another to bare a child.
At any rate, the patients daughter had worked with me, as a nurse, in the 1960s. She and her husband could not have children of their own, so they adopted. After about six months, they discovered the child was mentally handicapped and so, they returned the baby! They made a choice. Now, they are devout in their religion and both are preaching anti-abortion. I believe they feel the guilt of returning their handicapped child.
Other adventures at other churches, have been men in the pulpit, denying women the right to be in the pulpit. Anti-gay speeches are also high on the pious list.
Whatever happened to feeding the poor? Helping your neighbors? Encouraging their followers to "vote" and "support" know crooked politicians?
When I was little, the music was beautiful and everyone would sing. Now the choir is a group of guitars picking youths, with head phones and broadcast on TV monitors.
I believe, NO RELIGION has it right. I believe spirit lives on, after death, as for an omnipotent power, call god, I don't think so. Whatever god there is, lives with in me and you. I wish you all well. It is the sincerest form to express love for one another. Jesus loves me, this I know. For the reat of you, you're on your own! LOL!
@ pedestrian in SF. My thoughts exactly. I think that is the main reason that Americans are turned off by religion. Politicking from the pulpit is just plain WRONG. Who wants to go to church for political indoctrination instead of spiritual guidance. I used to go to a Catholic Church and the priest has been talking politics since 2008. It's disgusting and my kids were so turned off. I cringe now if and when I walk into church until I know who is saying Mass. If it's the crazy political priest I leave.
tiny - they're selfish because they think that because they bellieve in their version of "god" they're so special and do pretty much whatever they want. I live about 6 miles from one of those mega churches. You never want to be coming out of a cross street (where the locals live) when these people are leaving the church on the main county road after a service. They will never let you in. Complete @!$%#s.
Then there's the neighbors who attend one of these non-dem very conservative Lutheran churches in the area. They hate gay people so much they advocate all homosexuals living in the US be banished to Africa with no chance of ever returning to America. Some parishioners there go further, and call for the execution of gays. And they pound their chests and tell everyone with no shame what great and wonderful people they are because they are spreading God's message. They believe they are, in a word, SPECIAL. God has chosen them to rid the world of gays.
Yup, mighty Christian of them. Agree?
Do you. My my. I'm turned off by religion because it's utter nonsense and not in a fun way. The idea that some great being in the sky is passing judgment on everything I do makes me... well, frankly, it makes me laugh.
And I'm going to say what all of the atheists reading this thread are thinking but are too polite to say: when I meet a person preaching the Bible and god and they really believe it, I think they aren't too bright.
There. I said it. Now ban me for a week. But you all know you're thinking it.
And as they stay silent, watch as government takes away a bit of there freedoms her, a bit of their freedoms there, . . . . . .
Sorry folks, you are not very benevolent dictators.
Yep. You hit the nail on the head mj...good on you. Let me clue all you religious folks out there into what makes us atheists suddenly more outspoken. If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times from you all "why can't you just keep it to yourself that you don't believe?" I will keep it to myself when you keep your religion to yourself. When you (or the politicians you vote for) stop using YOUR beliefs to curtail MY access to potentially life saving medical advances, personal decisions I make that have NO IMPACT on you, who I choose to love and how I love them, and numerous other encroachments YOUR religion has on my life! And for the record, I'm a pretty good person because I care about the fellow human beings sharing this life with me, not because an invisible man in the sky is watching. I have been told that I can't POSSIBLY have morals if I'm not religious or don't believe in god, that's poppycock. I'm ready to put my moral fiber up against the hate mongering some of you revel in any day. Oh, and the next time you hear there are no atheists in foxholes, also poppycock. I'm a veteran too!
When I go to church and they talk about politics, I just get up and walk out. There is no business talking about politics in church. I go to church to praise God and to enjoy the companionship of fellow Christians. I go to differnt churches if one turns to being political. Thank goodness for freedom. Sometimes, I just go outside and pray there where God is everywhere and country is something God built. This is my opinion and I am not critisizing anyone of different faiths or no faith. I am glad they have the freedom of choice too!
It's one thing to worship whatever you might want to worship on a personal and private level, but once you get into the lock-step group-think of organized religion, the name of the game becomes MONEY, YOUR money!
Time and time again, we have seen these large religious organizations exposed for what they really are. Leaders of these religious organizations - including the pope - live very high off the donations. The sad thing is that most of the faithful seem to think it's all right for their leader to live a lavish lifestyle. Some people never learn.
Y'all are not in the right church. Millions of people are a part of thousands of churches that teach nothing more than how to be a good Christian, how to perfect a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and exemplify that relationship with goodness.
Period.
Interesting that J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings was an Oxford scholar and a master mythologist who wrote fairy tales and mythology. He understood and enjoyed imaginary lands and people.
He was also a devout Christian who did not consider his faith imaginary or mythical in any way.
He knew the difference.
anybody want to BET that 39% of that 44% are below the buy-bull belt??
So we see a trend here and from the posters on this thread.....the more that people trust in men who lead organizations instead of trusting in God the worse things get.....
Not much to add but bravo, pedestrian, you hit the nail on the head.
I'll admit as a Christian, I am not fond of organized religion, but I do think it is important for believers to gather with others for community support.
Too many churches have garbled the simple message of Christ.
Best thing to do is to discover for yourself what Christ had to say. Grab a bible that's got the words that Jesus spoke written in red -- easy to find -- and just read those parts. Pretty much says it all.
I don't believe in Jesus, never have and never will. I do however belong in an organized religion that teaches that G-d doesn't give a rats a$$ if you believe in him or not, what matters is how you behave and treat your fellow man. He isn't a spoiled brat who says i don't care if you play nice, if you want to play in my house (heaven) all you have to do is make me king. I mean I don't understand how people believe Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven because he was "born again" in prison, yet someone like Gandhi is in hell. Doesn't make one iota of sense, and I would rather be with Gandhi than Dahmer!
CarolC123,
Just out of curiosity, what is the name of that organized religion to which you belong?
adge38,
I do find it funny when christians try to act like they are the ones that are oppressed.
I will believe that christians are on their way to being marginalized when they get their god off of my money.
Why is "In god we trust" on my money? Isn't that a gross introduction of religion into politics?
How would most christians feel if all of the money in their pockets said "We don't trust in any god"?
No mention of how many people were polled... funny.
I bet they polled 4 gays, 6 atheists and a bushman... and still almost hit 50%
J,
I agree with what you posted, but that's only the beginning.
How does one justify demanding respect for their own personally held beliefs while simultaneously heaping contempt upon the beliefs of others in a land ostensibly based upon the freedom of religion? By invoking the right to freedom of speech? How is it that some churches have abused their tax free status in this country in order to enter the political arena, all the while denouncing religions they disagree with, and seek to supress? How is is that some organized religions have been shown to be the world's largest slumlords, while at the same time concealing and facilitating the continued abuse of children by their longstanding clergy? And how is it that laypeople see and endure this hypocrisy time and time again, yet still keep coming back for more, even if the numbers appear to be dwindling?
I'll posit a potential answer: since all religions are based on belief and faith, rather than anything which could be shown to be factual, then it's simply a matter of which faith does the best job of peddling their product. And while personally held religious convictions, when observed, might foster better treatment of our fellow men, all too often, the outcome is more along the lines of offering justification for the brutal acts committed in the name of religion. The simple fact that earthly bureaucracies must exist to facilitate the goals of these various religions would seem to prove that there are conflicted interests involved, and that producing dependable streams of revenue takes precedence over more spiritual matters, which opens up the possibility that the main goal of organized religions may be to use propaganda, masquerading as religious dogma, in order to control the populace and exploit their fears about various aspects of life in order to generate revenues.
In other words, we've been had. Flame away all you like, but not one of you can actually refute any of the points that I've proffered.
Yet, 44% still guide every waking moment of their lives based upon fairy tales?
That still frightens me.
Pedestrian SF--My thoughts exactly. Couldn't have said it any better so I won't try.
J.R.R. Tolkien was a master of mythology and fairy tales, studied them in depth, wrote them, invented them. He enjoyed creating imaginary worlds for reading.
But he never considered his Christian beliefs to be a fairy tale or imaginary. Interesting.
Maybe he knew something some of you don't.
They forgot to include our elected officials in this list. I am not losing confidence in religion; only the fallible people that run it.
J868728,
That's just it...you think people should go to church to "perfect a relationship with Jesus Christ." What relationship? The one that makes you feel special and "blessed" to think only you know what God thinks? Do you have any idea how arrogant that is? Just quit with your "relationship" BS. If I need to know how "blessed" and powerful I am, I'll go to a motivational speaker. Otherwise, if I want to learn about morality, I'll read the good book. I suggest you do too. Matthew 19:21 and Mathew 25:40 are good places to start. And the book of Micah is a good read the next time you get the urge to bomb some brown people.
Organized religions are like farts. Yours is ok, but everyone else's stinks.
Silverton:
I know, I know. He knows something some of us don't because he received the word straight from the source.
Doesn't it seem odd to you throughout history, including up into the present, those who claim god "spoke" to them were always alone, with no one else around to witness these conversations? Why has there never been a group conversation?
capt curtass,
Not necessarily. I don't care much for organized religion, but have led ecumenical Christian bible studies for years with Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, a Mormon, and even an Atheist one time.
We use the bible as our guide and explore it together. We have a lot more in common with each other as followers of Christ than you might think. And even the Atheist seemed to get something out it.
The best lover, and a preacher, are like musicians playing every note that needs to be played for that
moment, for that song being played, and every song is then different from all the rest. Most will not
know they were just taken for a ride, maybe one or two will now know.....
I give you the last verse of the song.
God is nothing but a persons use of their imagination to explain something that is a "mystery" to them
and others. When one person decides their explanation is the correct explanation, that belief is then
used to persuade others that the originator of that thought (explanation of the mystery) is above
everyone elses thought. Thus elevating that person in his/her mind to a higher status , first to
themselves then to others, in order to hold sway over the opinion of others. It is the creation of power
over at first one person and then others. With power comes special privileges in many forms. Gift
giving freely, gift giving for special treatment of taking away mysteries( evil spirits). Sacrifices which
release ones own self worth and transferring it to another person. Religions in primitive form show
evidence of the scheme to take away objects such as food and clothing in return for special treatment
/protection/good hunting/fertility /etc. Creating cures in simple incantations and then actually stumbling
across real cures with the use of plants and minerals and up the chain to modern medicine. Science
explains, while religion goes all the way back to the origin of ...one persons imagination creating the
myth of a god that satisfies their need for explanation.
I've studied the history of Dakota Native Americans for 26 years from the 1860's and further back.
There was a white missionary named Sam Pond who lived among them most of his life. He had the
time to ask most all medicine men and women of the tribe, of numerous bands, of numerous villages of
the Dakota , their primitive thoughts of Dakota religion. Witnessing the base primitive thoughts,
actions, and deeds of the religion, the only common consistent story thread he found was each person
had their own story, and to that story they were all sticking to it!
The whole world is one tribe, and broken down into the hundreds of millions of religions, each one
thinks theirs is the true religion..........and by god...they are sticking to it.
Burma Shave
I just wonder why any person needs to attend a place of worship. It can be only to demonstrate their being part of the group. They're simply acting with their club players instead of working individually with the unfortunate. Singing and kneeling to an icon hardly benefits the world in any way.
Since religion belongs in hearts and minds, and praying should be done with sincerity in private, all these public, mob performances are in effect, counter to the entire concept.
It seems to be a massive human failure that almost everything that may have started out as a good idea, relentlessly descends into a squabble for power, control and profit. The gullibility and malleability of mankind worldwide is a sad marker of our inability to find and maintain the paths to benevolent intelligence and enhancement of our species.
I could wish the world good luck, but what would be the point? We need more than that, we should be looking at our feet, where the downtrodden are. Moaning at the sky for guidance and comfort is meaningless and selfish, unless you're looking to see if you need an umbrella. So, not "good luck", but "good deed".
Good question, Debi.
I would say it is because God is a Spirit and therefore speaks to us through the Holy Spirit.
Although the bible says God spoke to certain people audibly at significant times in history, most of the time it is through the words of the bible itself, or through other people, or through circumstances, and most often through what most people would describe as a quiet inner voice.
But you have to be open and listening for His voice.
Scoffers don't get it.
But those who are truly questioning or looking for answers will.
Mike Davis: How is this apocalyptic? Third world countries are usually those who don't have many christians. Do you even know what you are saying? Just because these stations don't agree with you doesn't mean anything. Why do liberals get over-dramatic anyway?
Sotajet: Name-calling is childish and doesn't give your point any credibility. I don't use "religion" to hate other people. I am simply warning them of God's wrath later on so that way they can't say " nobody told us".
JudytheOrnery: This is what happens when too many churches water down the Gospel of Christ to make it more palatable to atheists. I don't think anybody would be an atheist if they could attend church and still do whatever they wanted. You have a "Americanized version" of chrisitanity in your head which is why you think christians should act in such a way. None of which is really biblical.
Your interpretation on the role of women in the church is biased. Next thing you're probably going to say is that there are no women prophets, right? Wrong! The bible talks about those too; trouble is you are too focused on what lies liberals have fed you.
Complete and utter Rubbish. Constantine's vision at the battle of the Milvian Bridge is NOT the reason why he "legalised" christianity. And, Constantine NEVER suggested that hsi vision was, in any way, biblical or christ-related. Constantine was a Roman Emperor and died a Roman Emperor. Like all others before him, as soon as he was appointed "Caesar" -- he thought of himself as an extension of "god" on earth. (Hardly a christian concept). He died with that belief. Only Eusebius, who suggested that he baptised Constantine a christian on his deathbed, was witness to the alleged "conversion" of Constantine. Nobody else. And, it should be noted that in one of his books (one about Constantine, in fact) -- titled Vita Constantini -- Eusebius actually states that it is lawful to lie and cheat for the cause of Christ.
Well, at least that's one value that has certainly been maintained all these years by followers of the christian cult!
Oh baloney. Your continued hatred for anyone who doesn't believe your cult rubbish drones on here day after friggin day. You cannot even prove your cult god exists, but you constantly bellow your filthy, goddam cultist BuyBull threats at people as if they should listen to them.
Get over it already!
My goodness -- self-importance sure is paramount in your cult. You're another one who thinks that your interpretation of your cult book is right, and the others are wrong. Gee -- I can only imagine why there are over a thousand different denominations within the cult of christianity, all who worship differently, believe interpretations over others, some who hate gays and admit it and some who hate gays and are too cowardly to admit it (like you) and others who welcome them and bless their union in the eyes of god... There are so many differences between all of these sub-groups within the christian cult that it's hilarious. But "unhappy's" interpretation -- THAT one is the right one, the others are wrong. Especially those liberal ones, forgetting that the jesus-myth was written as a liberal in his day...
Honestly, you must eat your own toilet paper after you use it, because I'm sure you're convinced it doesn't stink at all, but rather is more like prime rib...
Religion is opium of the masses. Most of the religions have degenerated to those levels.
In case of Islam, many followers of Islam have become inccorigible and intolerable heroin addicts.
When most don't care for religion much these days, followers of Islamic cult, especially Sunni Saudi inspired Islamic radicals and militants (al-Qaida, Salaffi, Wahhabi, MB and other label ones), are fast marching backwards to their seventh century desert tribal days of rapings, lootings, killings and genocides of non-Muslims.
In Muslim nations, they are killing each other as in Syria, Pakistan, Iraq and other places.
Yeah. Most likely a migraine...
Churches are afforded a tax free status under the doctrine of separation of church and state in our Constitution. But that works both ways: churches should be free from interference from the government, but the opposite is true too, Churches enjoying tax free status must stay out of the affairs of the state--that would include the political process. That is true of any institution enjoying tax free status. In reality this doctrine isn't enforced against Churches for obvious political reasons--if it were, most religious organizations would be taxed--but they'd not let that happen and instead keep their yaps shut.....in other words, Pedestrian-in-SF's observation should be a given, not a point for debate....
Being political hacks instead of representatives of whichever God is only half the problem. I'm a Christian. That means I follow the teaching of Jesus Christ. That means that when a homeless person asks for money, I give him/her some if I have any. Or buy them a meal. I've even given them the hat off my head. What these unauthorized Jesus fan clubs don't do is follow the teachings of the person they claim to follow.
Christians stand up and say we are a Christian nation. Are we? Then why do we have Social Security and Medicare? If we were a Christian nation, the Church would be supporting the old, the unwell, the widow, and the secular government wouldn't have to. Instead, they blow their money on extravagant buildings to preach the hatred of homosexuals and women that have abortions. Temples dedicated to hatred are not worthy of Christ.
As a musician, I served in several large churches. You would be shocked what the leadership says behind the scenes. I was. Right now in America, you are better off buying a Bible and reading it yourself, then finding a small church, and telling people when they cross over the line. You see, Christians are not supposed to judge others, but we are supposed to correct each other. Not that it would help much, of course. Christianity today would win the same rebukes from Jesus that the Pharisees and the Sadducees did in his time.
If you want to see a religion that comes closer to working as advertised, look at the countries where the Muslims are in charge. They are nasty to women, but that's in their contract. They mete out retribution: also in the contract. They also take care of the infirm, the widow, and the old. Also in the contract. That's the real irony: Jesus gave us the perfect moral code and we drag it through the mud. The Muslims are way off in left field, but they are faithfullly in left field.
That's why I have no confidence in what we call, "organized religion," today. It has potential, but we've squandered it.
Bertrich: YOU CAN'T PROVE GOD DOESN'T EXIST. So tell me why do you hate christians so much? You atheists don't consider yourselves a cult? We do. We have to listen to your Hate-God Speech every single day and that doesn't make you a bully? You are so full of crap!
I have the right to express any belief I have because of the First Amendment. You don't like it.... Well that's just too bad.
Get over yourselves already. The world doesn't revolve around your liberal beliefs.
?Who in their right mind would want to join unhappy's religion after reading that? Not I. Not I.
after reading these posts it becomes clearer and clearer to me that our society needs to spiritually evolve. what i mean by that is that we need to grow up and understand the true nature of "God." i'll start with the Bible. there, God describes himself very clearly..."I am that I am. the alpha and the omega." God only appears as sources of energy, fire, a cloud, etc. if you truly believe that God is omnipotent then personifying Him in any way limits Him. we have to be willing to expand our vision. if God is a force of energy and this energy is omnipotent, then it would make sense that perhaps it is the universe that is God, the universe being aware of itself. there are plenty of scientists out there who study the cosmos who think that it is not so far fetch to think that the universe may have been created by life for life. they say that sometime too many coincidences mean something else. of course, there is no imperical proof, but then there's no proof of anything concerning God. you might not believe in God, but you can't prove it and same goes for those who do believe...there's no proof. it all comes down to faith.
a step further, the universe works in perfect harmony. everything in the universe works perfectly with everything else. even the destructiveness of a black hole brings about the ideal conditions for life because it is believed that black holes are at least part of what helps create galaxies which in turn give rise to solar systems which in turn gives rise to us. everything works in perfection. everything works towards the positive. so, it would make sense that to live in the true nature of God we should live in harmony with the universe, the world and each other. how do you do this? by being non judgmental, compassionate, caring, forgiving...all the things that Jesus tried to teach us. of course, he wasn't the only one who tried to teach people how to live in harmony with the universe. Buddha did and believe it or not so did Mohammed. none of these men can be held accountable that their teachings of peace and brotherhood have been twisted into something evil.
those parts of our lives that we are least proud of, anger, jealousy, envy, greed...these are all aspects that work against the harmony of life. you don't have to believe in a God to understand that. don't blame Jesus because people are incapable and/or unwilling to live by his teachings. he stated the philosophy of the God source better than any prophet that ever lived in the simplest, most pure and beautiful way. he said, "There are two great laws(laws of the universe), saith the Lord. the first is to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart (love the universe around you, the planet, nature) and all thy soul. the second is like unto it, love thy neighbor as thyself. these two commandments go BEFORE all the laws and the prophets." how can it be put any clearer to anyone. if we truly love God then we must love the world around us and therefore treat it will respect, by being stewards of our planet, not rapists. and if we want to live as true christians then we MUST love one another with judgment.
until we leave behind the archaic ideals that are mired in so much mythology and stop allowing those self righteous, greedy, arrogant "leaders" whose only true God is the god almight dollar and their own personal importance, to lead us around by the nose, we will never be free. we have to understand that most of the Bible is mythology meant to teach lessons, some of it is history disguised as acts of God because people didn't understand how the world works. they didn't understand why there are floods, why there are earthquakes, why there are volcanoes, etc. most of the Bible is allegory or metaphor. that's not to say that these stories don't have any merit, but i believe that we have since the beginning been held hostage by those who craved power. but, now we have the power and the freedom to find "God" the way we choose.
the right wing religious radicals in this country have chosen to try and force their archaic, backwards ideals on the rest of us. they found that using the fear of God wasn't working, so in the nineties they decided to try politics and invaded the republican party. now, they have bought their collective souls for 30 pieces of silver and everyday we see efforts to limit our freedoms...not because they "care" about anyone, but because they want to control others lives because it feeds an obsession for power. you don't need a church to be closer to God and if you don't believe in God you can still be closer to the universe by understanding you very close connection to it and how your every action creates a reaction...cause and effect. that's is the ultimate law of the universe, of "God."
I for one don't think that I'm religious but in the last few seconds of my life I will know for sure as will everyone else that doubts religion, you will also know it when a close love one dies before your eyes if you believe in a higher power, so people can put those people down that show they are religious, Yea make funny of them if that makes you feel you're some how superior, I for one respect peoples rights to believe what ever makes them feel better.
True, it's not possible.
It's also not possible to prove a flying pink unicorn doesn't exist.
But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous to believe in it.
Besides, it's not the atheists job to prove god doesn't exist. It's the religious people who are making the claim that they know the truth, that in knowing this truth they must bring others to believe this truth, and that all should live by the rules of this truth (whether they believe or not), thus the burden of proving anything falls upon the religious, while the atheist, believing nothing has nothing to prove.
If the religious didn't want to force the non-religious to follow their rules, then there wouldn't be a problem. Atheists generally don't have a problem with the religious following their own rules, however, when the religious work tirelessly to force EVERYONE to follow their rules, the atheists/agnostics have a problem with that, and rightly so.
Let me "enlighten" you "unhappy" - I'm a "devout" NON-believer. I won't waste my TIME explaining to you those items of DRIVEL which you (in your brainwashed capacity) accept unquestioningly.
Let me just say that I don't enter into arguments with believers very often, because, as I'm fond of saying "One can ALWAYS tell a BELIEVER - One just CAN'T TELL THEM MUCH." Now while you DO have the ability to express yourself (and by the way, the 1st amendment is NOT universal - it ONLY applies to public forums) IF you are on private property and asked to leave, and you don't - you are in violation of the TRESPASS LAWS. IF for whatever reason you offend newsvine, YOU can be "banned" so IS THE DISTINCTION CLEAR??
Babble on - I can ignore you with impunity. Oh, and parting shot - the world doesn't revolve around your silly beliefs EITHER.
i'll return my faith in churches when they treat women like human beings worthy of the same respect men get and not just some brood sow for the pulpit or failing that cannon fodder for their holy wars.l
I hear you, silverton. It's refreshing to know that more and more people are realizing that all and only all of any religion is counter productive to the betterment of the human race. I grew up in a Christian environment, went to Sunday school, sang in the church choir and even did bible studies with the minister so I could become a member of the Highland Avenue Congregational Church in Orange N.J. What I took away from all of that and what my parents taught me, was that;
a. I can talk to God at the foot or side of my bed, or pretty much anytime I feel like it, no matter where I am. Some people need the congregational aspect of religion, some don't. It's unfortunate that so many of the religious leaders feel the need to try and exert their personal influence over their followers.
b. While the Holy Bible has some very good lessons and ideas, God didn't write it and neither did Jesus. If they had, there wouldn't be the book of this and the book of that, New Testament and Old testament, and we would all be reading The God or Jesus version instead of The King James version. What most people call the Ten Commandments, I prefer to call ten pretty good rules to try and live your life by to the best of your ability. It really doesn't have to go any further than that. All religions, past, present and future, were, are and will be created by man. Plain and simple.
It's refreshing to know that the idea of non-denominational congregations is growing. I just hope they can also stay non-judgemental, as the survival of the Human race depends on it. World wars I and II, Korea and Viet Nam were fought because of political ideals. All armed conflicts in the world since have been, and are being, fought for religious beliefs and ideals.
As long as there are two human beings existing on this planet, there will be a difference of opinion. It's the nature of the beast. The trick is to learn how to deal with those differences in a peacefull manner. I think that's what He wants us to do.
everyone that is making comments: Its not about the churches at all, I can't believe you are all so blind!!!
you lose more and more everyday that Obama is in office, He is working all of you idiots even harder, as he spends your money faster!!! Its not bout the gays its about taxes that the government won't get, and it applies to any one who cohabitates gay or not. Why in the hell did the president even decide that he needed to interfere with the darn churches anyway?? I bet he wants their money, and to turn us away from another of our freedoms In the Constitution. Wake up and check out who is the idiot you or the man who is tearing down your country right before your eyes!! Quit bickering and fix the real problem the president and his followers or supporters
First there is NO such thing as a Christian nation. The only nation, formed by God, was the Jewish nation. Second when the Pharisees asked Jesus if they should they pay taxes to Caesar, He asked them whose image and inscription was on the coin. They said Caesar’s. He then said, render unto Caesar's the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God. In the book of Romans, Paul wrote, the following, Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority. What bothers me about all of this, is the name calling and anger of my fellow Christians, towards the 'people who are in authority'. I see no love or grace given to people who might not think like them, in fact, the only people who Jesus showed disgust with were the Pharisees, a Jewish sect who thought they were 'all that'. Jesus said to them, “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.' I think Jesus summed it up the best.
Religion is the opiate of the masses...
joesph
WTF are you talking about?
Obama is not the Antichrist you make him out to be.
Certainly not our best president, but certainly not our worst.
Does the name James Buchanan ring a bell?
President Obama is a Christian.
Go to utube. You will see Obama admit he is a Muslim. However, that is his choice. Did he lie to everyone when he said he was a Muslim?
Keep telling yourself that. Won't make it true, but it obviously makes you feel better.
Not surpising, they are their own worst enemy. Always on the wrong side of history.
Atheism + Darwinism = Human Suffering
"We were victims of a cruel social ideology that assumes that competition among individuals, classes, nations or races is the natural condition of life, and that it is also natural for the superior to dispossess the inferior . . . . The law of natural selection is not, I will maintain, science. It is an ideology, and a wicked one. . ."
Kenneth J. Hsu, "Is Darwinism Science?" Earthwatch (March 1989)
Hsu is Earth Science Head at the Swiss Institute of Earth Sciences
"...the process of extermination is an axiom of the law of evolution and survival of the fittest." And to ease the conscience they would conclude that with the inferior "races" there was no reason to suppose, "there had been any culpable neglect." as they killed them. - Vice-President of the Royal Society of Tasmania, James Barnard on the slaughter of the Aborigines.
So humanity has only been suffering for the last couple hundred years? There was no war, death, disease, poverty or strife for the other approximately 40,000 years of human existence?
Who gives a quack what each individual thinks, if they dont believe in God good for them...
I'm confident in knowing there would be days like this, people left empty inside, not knowing they have a soul,they can go their own way.
Argues - obviously your not aware that the world is only 6,000 years old...
Yep. Always. (rolling eyes in disbelief at that incredibly stupid statement)
July........All Aborigines lived the life "survival of the fittest" before white man arrived among them. Slaughtering, sacrificing, torturing, taking slaves, committing cannibalism, taking land and food sources from each other. To hold the Aborigines to a higher esteem than whites does not erase the fact that they are culpable in their own extinction of each other before whites came among them. Like every tribe before them, there was a conqueror and the defeated. History shows that every tribe is a blend of the tribe they came in contact with. The result of winners and losers are the blend that survives today.
Sounds like the eight years of America under Dumbya Bush.
Yeah, Lusitania, I agree.. Religious people are empty husks, having to fill themselves with ridiculous mythologies from old books, reveling in shared delusions with others of their ilk, to give their lives meaning... However, people like me are filled with love and purpose.. I need no threat of Hell or promise of Heaven, I simply give what I can, and work tirelessly to produce the best contribution I can for the future, namely teaching my children to be inquistive, intelligent, loving and generous, simply for the sake of the betterment of the human condition, and it makes me happy to do so,.. I feel pity for those religious people who needed a book to invent a soul for them, because they were such miserable people that they believe that they can't be good fulfilled people without it.
hey i have a question, what the f... does religion jesus' existance etc etc have to do with the deficit, immigration, the constitution, the bill of rights, and the man who we call leader is a muslim!! remember sept 11th by any chance? he has broken the very oath he took when elected, doesn't have a birth certificate, oh and i like this one professor of the constitution and can't even quote it in his speeches i agree with the pres. of venz. he is a clown! Which by the way reflects on the common sense of the Unitied States as a whole.
What in the world are you raving about? Calm down and try to be more open-minded.
He's afraid that if he opens his mind just a little, what passes for his brains will fall out.
Yes, I question my religion. Like why are there no stories of Jesus from the age 1 to 30? What was the Son of God doing? nothing......so how can you believe is he doing something now?
Linda 1902513: For one thing, Jesus was growing up. Check out Luke 2:40-52. You don't know that he was doing nothing, just that there isn't much recorded about Jesus' early life.
Why is there no mention of Jesus in any country's history? He's only mentioned in the gospels.
As a child JeesAss blended in with the donkey he was riding...no one knew he was there.
"Lamb" by splendid humorist Christopher Moore fills in some of that gap... ^_^
There could have been, but when the bible was put together, a lot of the written history was edited out by the church because it did not fit their agenda.
The gospel of Luke does mention that when Jesus was 12, he was in the temple in Jerusalem schooling the religious leaders on their own holy writings. After this, at Luke 1:52, it simply says: "And Jesus went on progressing in wisdom and in physical growth and in favor with God and men."
The gospel accounts were primarily intended to show how Jesus fulfilled prophecies regarding the Messiah in the Old Testament and therefore must have been the Messiah. There were prophecies related to his birth, so the gospels go into detail about this aspect of Jesus' life. However, there wasn't much by way of prophecy about Jesus until be became an adult, was baptized in the Jordan River, and was annointed as the Messiah. The rest is side information with no real bearing on the main point of the gospels.
This reminds me of the words of 1 Timothy 1:3, 4: "Just as I encouraged you to stay in Eph′e·sus when I was about to go my way into Mac·e·do′ni·a, so I do now, that you might command certain ones not to teach different doctrine, 4 nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith."
It is easy to get caught up in fantastic stories about how something MUST be missing from the gospel accounts and how early Christians MUST be hiding some juicy but of gossip about the Messiah. These are only "false stories" with no real point other than to bring up "questions for research" that lead nowhere. It makes for great specials on the History Channel - right next to the specials about UFOs and Ancient Aliens.
Regarding the record of Jesus in history, there are inscriptions that speak of Pontiuos Pilate, the Roman governor that had him put to death. There is also mention in Roman history of the Christians themselves. However, how may 30-something executed criminals do you suppose history would make note of? And of course, the Jewish leaders who put Jesus to death had no particular regard for him, so why would they mention him? Do you really believe that such a large movement would have arisen from a man that never existed? Say what you will about Jesus, but to imply that he never existed because secular history does not directly mention him is stretching it pretty thin.
argues: isn't it amazing all of the 'gospels' that they left out, including Thomas? Not to mention the bevy of other publications from the Coptic area and the Gnostics as well as .... well lets just say they took millions of pages and "condensed" it down by a small panel of men..... Nice
TheRealChris, you out to look up Flavius Josephus, a Hebrew historian born around 38 AD. He finished a work called the Antiquities of the Jews, intended to be like a Hebrew history book for Emperor Vespasian. There are a couple of paragraphs which lend some credibility to the Bible (in part because Josephus was not a Christian, but rather personally believed Vespasian was the Hebrews' messiah and therefore had little reason to exaggerate the existence of Jesus in a favorable light). The most direct one which talks about Jesus is as follows:
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;..."
So yes, there were some written records outside of the Bible that mentioned Jesus' existence and the stories around him. There may be more, but this is the one I'm most familiar with. Now, you may say that Flavius would have been writing this after Jesus' life. True. But since there were many, many people in Israel still alive who would have seen/heard about Jesus, you would think that there would be a number of scholars from that time who corrected Josephus. As far as I'm aware, that doesn't happen. So it seems pretty likely that a man named Jesus did exist, but whether he was who he said he was is another question entirely.
AlexTheBlade - If you wanted to join a religion that followed the Coptic scriptures, you could always go to the Coptic Orthodox Church. There are three in my city alone.
I don't know of any widespread religion based off of the Gnostic Gospels, though.
There is so many questions here.... I'm glad to see them... :) I'm glad to see that "most" are respectful, realizing that to some the Faith is just as important as country, family, etc. I will be glad to answer as many as I can so all are invited to visit my page, post your questions.. (I check it daily) and I'll aswer to the best of my ability. As far as the article... God and belief in Jesus especially is a personal experience but it is not one to be kept to oneself. The article makes a very important point: Religion is important to most but not Organized religion. Also despite if a person has actual experience (positive or negative) or not EVERYONE seems to comprehend that "Church" is held to a higher standard than "non-Church" organizations or areas... Example.
The current news (even on MSNBC) is the Sandusky assessments. It gives a scathing report. Now every one can agree it is a travesty. Yet compare that to the Priest sexual abuse cases. and you see not just outrage against those accused but the Church and (as the article suggests) all of Christiandom. Church, and Church organizations are held to a higher standard than any thing that can happen outside of the institution... and it should be. When a "professed Christian" does something "heinous" the outcry is not restricted to the individual but the church at large. But I stress this again... It SHOULD be that way because we serve a "Holy God".
I'ts kind of revealing that on this (and other vine threads) many of the "assertions" made against the church points to the bloody history of the Church as a indictment of Christians. But isn't that like me looking at my White brother (or worse, the whole race) and "convicting" him for slavery because his Great Grand father was a slave owner. Or my German friend for his fathers "Nazi" past. When is it Ok for me to make blanket assessment of a persons character because A viner is a ultra liberal so all liberals are Wicked? Hey why not, Liberals think all of the GOP is evil... Don't they? ... You get the Gist.
I'd love to asnwer all of your questions but it would sound like a "right wing, conservative, Christian rant". Especially about Jesus who history has established beyond a shadow of a doubt as a REAL historical figure. Now was He the Son of God, Did He doe those miracles, did He say those words. all of that is debatable and I would love to have it. Jesus is the "character" Christians are supposed to follow (as per the Bible) but barring that discussion this is all we know for sure: Jesus lived... He died by torture, (supposedly for what He believed)... and His body was never found... His followers wrote "many" things about Him and went around teaching "His Way"... I believed In Jesus... accepted His teaching (as I know it). It save my life, changed my thinking and has given back more than a life time can express.
Men have failed me in and out of the Church. I have failed myself more times than I can count. My kids, Wife, foster children, my Pastor, have all disappointed me at one time or another but I'm still in the same Church... Why? Because Jesus has never.... ever.. done me wrong and I (attributing all the good in my life to him) love Him for it.
Read 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ'.
He wasn't doing "nothing." He was raising his pet unicorn, practicing turning water in to wine on a Capri Sun pouch, and getting yelled at by his father for all the sleepless nights spent with Mary Magdalene. (Which must have been an awkward conversation, considering the whole holy trinity thing.) I'd hardly call that, "nothing." He was at least as busy as Frodo.
I believe in God! NOT RELIGION!
Not just gospels, but even the old testament. How many christians know about Adam's first wife, the first female, Lilith. Jesus' best friend and closest confidant, Judas, had his entire gospel removed, because it explained why Judas turned Jesus in and didn't paint Judas as a scapegoat.
We will all be reading the Mormon bible shortly. Say goodbye to all your fun Christmas observations after Mitt is in.
I saw Jesus in an oversized crouton in my salad once. And saw a image growing up of Jesus praying in my Baptist Church, as a kids. Later, I saw a picture of Jesus laughing in The Episcopal Church. I even saw a image of Black Jesus---but the crouton was the best.
Mr Romney's church said that Jesus had 3 wives and a ton of children--which had to be hell on family vacations to the Great Salt Lake. Remember, as the Mormons say--many universes, many gods. I wonder if the play croquet together? And that weird thing they have with bathing dead Jewish folks in absentia.
It is interesting that J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings was an Oxford scholar and master mythologist who enjoyed writing fairy tales, imaginary languages, and mythology.
But he was also a devout Christian who did not consider his faith imaginary or a myth.
He knew the difference.
This is why the scriptures warns us against following man. Man will fail you, God does not. I have a deep abidding faith in my Heavenly Father. I do not follow any man, I read the Bible myself and have accepted what the Bible teaches. Anyone who just takes what any pastor, priest, preacher, or whatever says you will be disappointed and let down. You have those who tell you they have the truth and those who will omit what doesn't fit their agenda. Search the scriptures yourself.
And yet, then as now, none of you can prove your cult or its divine claims are factual or real. You can't prove your god exists or is real. It's nice that Tolkien didn't consider his beliefs a myth -- but that's exactly what they are. 2000 years have gone by, and despite all the attempts to find even a shred of evidence, you have nothing. Many of your followers have even attempted fraud to "prove" your cult beliefs are real -- like the Rag of Turin (that is HUGE egg in your faces...) and so many other attempts, like trying to find Noah's Ark (the only ones to ever come up with a photo of that are the folks at the Weekly World News. It was in the issue following the one with their photo of the boy who was half-human, half-bat!)
By the way -- i love all of your depictons of the jesus-myth, too. Nice pearly white skin, light brown beard, flowing blonde hair, blue eyes... Tuck a surf board under his arm and you have your basic Laguna Beach surfer boy! But -- someone born in the region we know as Israel? Sorry -- but your jesus-myth would look more like Osama binLaden than Matthew McConaughey. But, whatever fraud and misinformation you use is ok -- as long as it sucks people in and brainwashes them into your cult nonsense. The ends justify the means, aye?
Yeah, that's why i like Harry Potter and Gandalf. Neither of them have ever done me wrong!
That's because he had an enchanted cloak of invisibility that his friend Dumbbledore gave him for Christmas.
Linda wondered why there was not much mentioned about Jesus in his early life....Well God had him signed up in the youth local soccer team league and Mary had to haul his ass around with Jesus on it to games every day. Then he had to join Greco Roman wrestling team where he was undefeated. Known for his stepovertoehold submission hold. He was disqualified for having a foreign object under his robe. Then he started hanging around the fisherman and entered in pro bass tournaments but was diqualified for not using a boat.....Not...using...a boat.......drum roll please. People were looking for his early life in the bible, had they checked the Roman Times sport section they would have learned a lot more about him.
Bernitch,
Actually, there is overwhelming tangible evidence to support the historical accuracy of the bible. And more evidence is discovered all the time.
And as far as physical evidence of God, I have said it before ... belief in a Supreme Being is a personal choice and does not require any scientific physical evidence. It can be neither proven or disproven.
Sorry, but there it is. I know it galls you.
A lot of learned men and women through the ages who are much smarter than you or I have believed and still believe the Bible is true. Guillible sheep and ignorant followers? I think not.
C.S. Lewis was a highly educated philosopher who said he was finally brought "kicking and screaming" into Christianity, not because he wanted to believe it, but because after studying it philosophically, he finally had to relent and admit it was true.
And he is only one of many.
God's Decline
4000 BC - Creates everything
Later BC - Floods everything
1500 BC - Some plagues in Egypt
Year Zero - Knocks up a virgin
1912 - Makes a statue cry
2000 - Appears on toast

Lol - it has its moments of clarity. Some towns and cities, geography of the local region, some rulers. But other than that, not reliable, especially the further you go back - largely because most of the earlier stuff was oral tradition originally, and often appropriated from other older stories.... there is a reason why Noah sounds a lot like Gilgamesh and Jesus sounds a lot like Horus and Mithras.
May be. But those are few as compared to the flip side, those that used to believe but no longer do.
well nory - it's a "phantom addition". Evidence that the text was added in about 800 something and was a fabrication by some monks. There is is substantiation for this in that Josephus was prolific in writing about "insignificant" persons - by the page - and the paragraph is far shorter than anything else in the "collection" about a supposed person of greater significance - and yet, there is almost NOTHING there.
canary,
What nonsense. You made every bit of that up. LOL
Nice try, though.
truth hurts doesn't it silverton. It has been shown to be additional text added in around 800 or so LIKE IT OR NOT
Sorry, you are incorrect again.
If you speaking of the passage where Josephus talks about Jesus, there is some controversy over whether the words he was the christ were added later or not.
The rest of Josephus' mention of Christ is not and never has been in dispute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html
satisfied? (others are not quite as forgiving as wiki - the claim is that the text was changed ) So sorry to burst your poor widdle bubble - but that's the result of roughly 2000 years of interveneing history
organized religion only exists to control people. Not working anymore because people dont believe in fairies and goblins anymore.
Yes it is a weapon used against good people .
My favorite quote by John Lennox: "Steve Hawking said that heaven is a fairy story for people who are afraid of the dark, I say atheism is for people who are afraid of the light". Are you afraid of the light, topshelf?
Fights - since you are obviously a non-believer, I think you should read an article I recently posted on Newsvine:
http://thelunatic.newsvine.com/_news/2012/07/06/12598359-im-a-believer
Facts and truth are the light.
The Lunatic - I just read your article, very impressive. I especially liked the believers vs non-believers interplay...very nice indeed.
Hopefully the decline is due to the fact that we are becoming more intelligent and beginning to shed our insecurities of early civilization. Just the mere fact that we argue about one "God " means we still have'nt come that far. The Universe is full of things we are just beginning to find out. I'm hoping one day these childlike religions used mainly as a means of power over other people will be forgotten. I eagerly await all new discoveries. Full of hope aint I?
Maybe it isn't right or wrong. Maybe you all have your paths adn I have mine, and if I don't believe I am not afraid of anything, but just have my path and my beliefs, and if I do, maybe that is my path and to me it isn't a fairy story. Why does someone have to be right?
Lenin and Stalin all the world would be a much better place without religion, because just like you atheists here, they thought they were intelligent enough to figure it out. But, they didn't and they created a communistic/atheistic/Godless country which was devastating.
Fights - that's a bunch of BS. Oppression and manipulation of the population is evil and wrong, whether it's done with or without religion.
Homy, religion gets blasted for starting wars, oppression, etc by folks who think secular government is the answer. Well secular, totalitarian govts have killed exponentially more people than any religious crusade ever has.
Lenin, Stalin, Kim Jong-il, Hussein, Castro, these are all examples of cults of personalities. The "religion" was the man setting himself up as a god. The world hasn't had a true secular society yet, although we are getting closer. Oddly enough, some of the closest examples today are the Netherlands and Scandinavia. Those countries often have national religions, but very few die hard adherents to it. No one really cares if someone goes to church or not, and most do not. Not to say that everyone is an atheist, but religion is not an issue that even enters into most conversations. Belief is personal, as it should be. Most really do NOT understand the US's obsession with trying to integrate religion into politics and think we're basically nuts and/or stupid. It's my belief that the commerical, money making element to American religion is what's causing the problems. There's no Christ in American Christianity. It's who's right, who's better, and how much people will pay some guy to tell them what to be afraid of so they can openly hate their fellow man. This is definitely not a proud time for organized religion. (again.)
Well said, Jen.
What an odd thing to say. Atheists simply don't believe your cult god exists because, after 2000 years -- you bellow on and on and on about your cult and your cult god, but none of you have ever been able to prove it, or come up with one shread of evidence to support your superstitious or divine claims. You've done well to leave a long, deep trail of abused, raped and molested children in many of your churches, but you still haevn't been able to prove ANY of your outrageous cult claims! All you have is a cult book -- and like any other cult book -- it is unprovable, mythical in nature, full of stories plagiarized from earlier cults, mythologies, Sumerian culture, ancient egypt, gilgamesh, mithras, paganism and a whole host of other sources that predate it.
Ya know --- it's the same with Leprechauns -- no proof, no evidence...
...do you or John Lennox suggest the same about people who don't believe in Leprechauns? That they must be afraid of the light?
It's a pretty baseless and ignorant statement -- for both of you.
Bernitch....you mean....Darby O'gill and the Little People .....was not real?
OOOHHHHH nnnnoooooo!
Back in the fifties, mom bought a faith healer record by Oral Roberts. It came without a hole in it. Every time we drilled a hole in it to play it on the record player, the hole healed up and we never got to play it!
I think ram (#5.7) has it right.
Why should anyone care what anyone else believes?
Maybe it isn't right or wrong. Why does someone have to be right?
Because either the fairy tale is true or it isn't. Either they're offering the road to salvation, or they're peddling a load of BS. How can both be true? I realize that some people can benefit, on a personal level, from their religion whether or not there is actually any truth in it. In such cases, they may feel it is "right" for them, but that says nothing about whether their religious beliefs are actually true. I'm interested in knowing what the truth is, not in knowing what makes someone feel better or helps them cope with life's difficulties.
I can't imagine why people are so cynical about religion these days, what with the Fred Phelps "God Hates F@gs" crowd, Ted Haggard and other closeted hypocrites, those polygamist child-raping Mormons, ultraorthodox Jews who beat up little girls for dressing "provocatively," conservatives who say that affordable healthcare and belief in climate change are anti-Christian, the Taliban... not to mention the 9/11 terrorists who killed more than 3,000 innocent souls in the name of God.
And the Catholic priests hiding behind their robes to molest children.
And those fundamentalist Mormons terrorizing ex-members by leaving kittens half trapped in concrete on their property and having multiple underage "wives".
Religions are psycho.
Religion/churches are just like any other business. They have a product for sale. But their product has not been updated for over 2000 years and now they are facing extinction. How many Edsel cars do you see on the road?
“Human life is sacred only if there is a God to sanctify it. Otherwise man is just another collection of atoms and can be treated as such.” Robert R. Reilly, “Atheism and Arms Control”, Intercollegiate Review , Fall 1988, p. 19
“Do Humanists believe in a supreme being? Emphatically yes. That supreme being is man. Humanists have no knowledge of any being more supreme.” Harold R. Rafton, What Can We Believe? , p. 118
“Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion -- a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality.” Dr. Michael Ruse, How Evolution Became Religion
Yeah, that really tops the 100 million plus dead at the hands of communist regimes. Shoot, more people were killed during the French Revolution than during the entire 200 years of the Inquisition. Or how about the 30 million dead in Europe from WWII mostly between Nazi Germany and the communist USSR.
SJGUY . . . .
I have always felt that difference in religions is what is wrong with our world today ! It seems as though where there is a war going on, each side has a different viewpoint in their religious beliefs . I can't understand why there are so many different versions of belief for the savior. And every organized religious group say "they" are the only ones going to Heaven, and every other group is going to H=II.
They just can't respect anothers viewpoint, they have to JUDGE others, and I guess that's what makes them such Good Christians (in the eye of their peers)
Spiritual People Inspire Me . . . . . . Religious People Scare Me ! ! ! !
There is a religion about Jesus in which various groups teach there version of what Jesus said and ignore the parts the find inconvenient. For example in large American churches You hear few sermons about greed and usury or the strong exploiting the weak: Yet these are the things Jesus most condemned.
Then you have the religion Jesus actually lived: Which is a spiritual life in which a man seeks the goodness, grace and will of god. While even his chosen disciples sat around arguing over their interpretation of his teachings Jesus was often alone praying and seeking the will of his spiritual father.
If ten percent of those who call themselves Christians entered into the spiritual life it would light up the world. Jesus, wrote no books, had no radio etc.and walked most everywhere in a very limited area. Still his name is known all over the world and his spirit lives with all that love him and put his way before their own. Personal and experienced religion is meant to free us from the bondage of traditional dogma and nothing else can.
Scott...I see a lot more Edsels around at car shows than I have seen of god!
Frank, very nice post.
Apparently, Americans are getting smarter! Hopefully, we'll get to zero percent soon.
Bingo ! In the meantime, we should be taxing church property and disallowing tax write-offs for church contributions.
Religion is for people who fear hell.
Spirituality is for people who have already been there.
AA saying
Some religions don't believe in hell.
All religions are myths let just be honest.
J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings did not think so. He was an Oxford scholar and master mythologist who studied the histories of myths and fairy tales, and wrote them himself.
He was also a devout Christian who did not consider his beliefs mythical or imaginary in any way.
He knew the difference.
Then he wasn't being honest with himself.
What an impertinant thing to say about a man who considered by his colleagues to be a genuis. Today, he is held in even higher regard.
You should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to tarnish the memory of someone like Tolkien.
LOL get real.
Go on back and play on Facebook, Greg.
Or try to kill a lich king or something. LOL
Interesting though....Tolkien never created a single religion for all his characters in Middle Earth. Not one. The only "gods" were humans, elves, etc. who had greater power through magic....some good and some bad.
No dogma, no worship, no deities...just a lot of very diverse beings living in harmony...the only conflict being between good and bad based on character and actions....not "righteous and evil' based on something meaningless and arbitrary.
I'll bet he had a very unusual "take" on his religious beliefs. Or perhaps....he was just one of those rare theists who don't feel the need to be constantly inserting their personal beliefs into everything around them. If all theists were like that, there would be no religious conflicts of any kind.
Notkidding,
Obviously you are unfamiliar with Mr. Tolkien's work. His book The Simarillion contains all the information, language, and history that he created for his imaginary world of Middle Earth.
In The Simarillion you will find that Tolkien indeed created a religion and a God for Middle Earth by the name of Eru Illuvatar - the creator of all existence. If you research this you will find that Eru was meant as "The One" and "Illuvatar" means "Father of All."
There is a fascinating biography on Tolkien entitled Architect of Middle Earth by Daniel Grotta that addresses his devotion to Christianity and how his work mirrored this.
Eru is a Supreme Being who created the world and also created angelic beings. Eru also could create independent life and created the children of Illuvator (Elves and Men). There is much more information about Eru Iluvatar throughout Tolkien's book.
A wonderful imaginary world created by a man who was a devoted to God in real life.
To say that there were no deities or religion in Middle Earth is absolutely erroneous.
I don't have a facebook account, and don't play fantasy games. silverton you can now go back to your make-believe world and leave the serious stuff to the adults.
Even geniuses make mistakes.
Albert Einstein said that "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
44 percent still don't get it
Good,
That means the atheists and logic are winning!!!!
Keep it up team, we'll get that other 44% out of the dark ages soon enough.
UNO that athiestzz have their OWN national holiday here in Meximerica. ITZZ called April FOOLZ DAY and falls on april first every year too. >>> SERIOUSLY.
Denk,
Whats wrong with you--your showing your bigotry, off your meds? You prove that one doesn't have to be religius to be spiteful.
How about we stop trying to make one "side" dark and evil and the other side light and good? Maybe different people just believe different things and choose to see some things as facts and some as faith? I think the problem comes when people try to put themselves above those who believe other things than they do. Or make nasty comments about others' paths. It's the power grabs on any "side" that cause the problem in my view.
A real uphill battle, I can tell you! Problem is that one can be rational but use invalid "facts", come to a rational but false conclusion & then post it on the web. Others buy into it and spread it around like a virus.
There is so much false "facts" floating around it is hard to get people to analyze and use provable information to come to valid conclusions.
So much crazy, hysterical noise about religion and politics!
Religious belief was the first attempt to answer questions about why we are here and why bad things happen to good people.
Hopefully people will continue to see that science has more provable answers to the questions religion has not been able to answer except to tell them to simply believe unprovable stories from 2000 years ago.
Time will tell!
Ditto what ram and dmze said...
Belief in a Supreme Spiritual Being is a personal choice and does not rely on or require scientific evidence to prove or disprove it.
Not surprising given all the media covers are the scandals and protests within organized religion. There's never a good word when organized religion does so many good charitable things for society like feeding and housing the poor, providing health care and hospitals, and even those things are getting forced out by the governments rules and regulations because the government would rather appear the super hero to society instead of letting good people take care of themselves and their neighbor.
Sorry Georgette, but when those hospitals TAKE FEDERAL MONEY, they have an obligation to treat everyone FAIRLY.
Being religious is not an excuse for bigotry or inappropriate control over other's lives.
"...providing health care and hospitals"??? What a fool!! They are in it to make big bucks. In my area, there is no "housing the poor" at all because we don't want "them" in "our" neighborhood.
And when Catholic hospitals take federal and state money and accept health insurance, they are no longer "religious" in nature. They are a business and should be treated as such. Pay your taxes and provide birth control as part of their employees' health insurance, you hypocrites.
@CuriousGeorgette
You are right about the charitable work of churches. They have worked to help countless people and families during hard times.
My question is: Why do we need the fairy tale parts of religion to do the same work? Why not help your fellow human beings because it is the right thing to do? People are becoming less dependent on the promise of eternal bliss and the threat of never ending hell-fire. There are thousands of secular charities helping the least among us, and as more of us leave the church there will be plenty of opportunity for those people to help others.
People are not leaving the church because of the liberal media. They are leaving because we are growing up as a species.
Let’s say that Christian based health clinics and hospitals decided to forgo federal assistance based on receiving assistance would require them to follow federal laws said Christian religious organization didn’t believe in and the only way said organization could avoid having to follow those federal laws regardless of whether they received federal aid was to claim the health clinics and hospitals they provided to society as places which said religious organization beliefs were taught or preached. One result would be those Christian organizations would then have to deny anyone who was not of their “faith” health care or services, resulting in 1.) more hatred towards organized religion of any sort for discrimination and 2.) more people relying on the government for aid and care. Regardless of the sins of present (and past) men within religious organizations, the original intent of those health clinics and hospitals was serving your fellow man.
YouEnjoyMyself, you're right there are plenty of secular (as you called them) charities out there to help people and many people (Christian or not) donate their time and money. However, why should that stop organized religion or "fairy tales" (as you called them) from doing the same?
Georgette,
Perhaps ppl have begun to see Christian churches the way I have experienced them since I was five--as terrorizing organizations promising to make us outcasts in our own neighborhoods and threatening us with unspeakable horrors after death.
Fuel, if you have anyone that comes and tells you that they are a Christian, ask them this. Ask them, if a person was to walk up to you, and ask you for your car, would you give them the keys and money for gas? Or, ask them, if a person walked up to you, and asked you for a few dollars, would you give them a few dollars, or all the money you have on you?
I believe you would find that almost all of them would be out of line calling themselves true Christians. Ego stands in their way of following the real teachings of the Christ, and that goes for the heads of the Churches also. If there are REAL Christians out there, they are far and few in between, and I'm sure there are a few, but very few indeed.
"People are not leaving the church because of the liberal media."
You got it. The way I see it, people are leaving churches because of the people who attend on a regular basis. Some of the most nasty, mean, hateful, hypocritical, hate filled people I personally know attend church on a regular basis. Now -- that's not true for all of them but it is true for way too many.
Fred, How right you are. Affiliated rligious concerns that accept Fed. $$$ have no right to deny anyone insurance coverage. The Bishops need to shut up and sit down.
Only in America-2604171
Yeah I guessing there are maybe a dozen 'true Christians' in America because almost every one of the 'regular Christians' has their own definition for that and everyone else is not a 'TC'.
I'm not exactly clear what your getting at in your first paragraph--surely if one needs to give away everything anytime some bum asks them for it to call themselves TC then that is one more example of the moral failings of Christianity. It's some form of extreme Communism.
I try to judge the group by the most common core beliefs and the effects it has on their behavior. Clearly it is not ethical to follow the fundamental teachings of the Bible or even the popular primary tenants of Christianity as we always hear it continuously preached.
Charlie, you left out cold hearted, judgmental, self serving, self righteous, holier than though, bigoted, and gullible (if the preacher said it, it must be true), led by narcissistic megalomaniacs. I was brought up in the Baptist Church but finally left it. Things have changed in organized religion since I actually felt any love coming from it...and this is more insidious than any scandal. Blind followers fail to use their brains instead of their gut, not realizing that they can still be devout AND use their brains. But, organized religion has drifted so far right, becoming so self absorbed that they speak cruelty more than they speak love. This does not condemn faith in the Lord, but I do condemn the "organization" that steers the flock, and I condemn those of the flock that let them. And the sad part is that many of them are good people who don't even realize they are being manipulated by an evil.
Of course there are many good religious people in many religions.
Ask yourself though, are you good because you believe God is looking over your shoulder and will punish you with an eternity in h3ll if you do not repent?
Or do you do good just to be good?
I choice to do the best I can, treat well all who deserve my care, and try to make the world a better place than I found it.
I do not fear an invisible god will punish me to make me be good to others.
Remember how it was before you were born? That's how it'll be after you die. From nothing to nothing.
Your consciousness is like a program running on a computer which lacks nonvolatile storage, when the power is switched off, the program is just gone.
I hesitated to get into this conversation, but felt compelled to. First and foremost Christianity is a brand. For those of us looking at the brand, we cannot tell the good, bad, or the ugly. We just know they say they are Christians. We also know that the "good Christians" never kick the bad or ugly Christian out of the churches. Also, they do not refuse the collection or tides of the bad or ugly Christian. So, if I am beholding and embracing the bad and ugly Christians within my brand, I cannot go and condemn those that do not like my brand. If I cannot divorce the brand of the bad and ugly, why do I expect others to do so? Lastly, I'm confused by all the different variety of the brand. There are so many different varieties saying they are the real purveyors of the brand, while they all claim the brand. Jesus taught: If thine left eye offend thee, pluck it out. And, it thy left arm betray you cut it off. Just my thoughts!
Georgette, though you sound like a decent person, many of us have had terrible experiences with the doctrines of hatred, bigotry, and exclusion practiced by any number of churches, Christian and otherwise. That's not even getting into the genocidal combination of politics and religion.
This isn't to say that there aren't good people in both clergy and congregations, but if history has taught us anything, it should be that we can't afford to ignore the massive evil that arrogant and/or ignorant human beings are capable of doing in the name of their gods.
I believe there are a lot of good people who are also religious. However, there are a lot of judgmental, evil and violent people who perpetrate crimes in the name of some "holy" belief or other.
The bottom line is, we know what causes thunder now. We no longer need to invent convoluted, magical stories of sky-wizards to explain it.
Yay for humanity!
Agreed. I've met some great religious folks. I've met some great atheists. I've met some crappy religious and atheists as well.
But the crappy atheists are just miserable people, while the crappy religious folks are scary zealots because they think their hatred is vindicated by god.
Some of the meanest, nastiest, most screwed-up and obnoxious people I've ever known have been so-called "born-again" Christians. Likewise, some of the best people I've ever known are those whom those Christians would readily condemn.
Remember that old song "I swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell ". Still cracks me up when someone who I thought was fairly smart starts telling me the earth is only 5000 years old ! Remember also way back in the day when people who died and were buried all of a sudden where found out to be not dead !! As they found scratch marks inside the coffin !! I wonder if that wasn't what happened about 2000 Easters ago ? Thats why they used to hold "wakes" to make sure with a loud hell raising party !!
Mike, You mean that the angels arn't bowling !?
In communist and Socialist countries, religion is forbidden and human rights are not worth spit. If that is what you athiests want, you are free to leave. In fact I bet a bunch of Christians would chip in for your one way ticket.
Organized religion has been the cause of more war and misery than it could ever hope to do good.
You are absolutely right. More people have died in religious conflicts throughout history than in all wars in history combined. Now that the religious freaks have officially joined politics, religion will continue going down the drain. I just would like to be there when it reaches Zero.
shermagan, love that one. Hahahahaha! Such a wonderful lie you atheists love to perpetrate. Most of the deaths came from communistic/atheistic rulers. Let's see here: Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mussolini, etc. Millions and millions have been killed by these regimes. Yet, as usual, all you atheists can ever say is its religion that has caused more deaths.
Fights, did you know that a whole bunch of things happened prior to the Twentieth Century? Here are some questions, starting with that very century:
1. Were the 9-11 bombers atheists?
2. What religion was practiced in Germany while HItler was in charge? And which religion best represents "the master race"?
3. This is a trick one, because these things happened a REAL long time ago, but what were the Crusades? Pogroms? What was enforced conversion? What happened to people accused of witchcraft? Was the Emperor Constantine a communist?
Strange how we fail to mention our own slaughter of millions for political a economic reasons. We are all over the world defending big money interest. Is that different from worshiping a golden calf?
Um, what a about the millions of native peoples in the Americas that died after those God fearing Spanish/Catholic "explorers" came here in an effort to "convert" them? Solid evidence points to a 70 to 90% reduction in the native population of the new world occurred due to disease, war and outright slaughter. That totaled upwards of 20 million.
Heard about the African Slave trade? You know, when those good old Christians enslaved and killed millions (as high as 10 million according to some experts)? What about the 16th century Reformation and Counter Reformation era in Europe in which millions died? And really did Hitler hate the Jews any more than the average Christian of his time? Remember, Pope Pius XII, was called a Nazi flunky?
Communism and atheism has killed more than Christianity? Wow, really, is it so hard for a person to turn off Fox news and read a history book?
How about you people display just a little bit of education or intelligence and state that people were killed because of men's personal agendas in spite of their religion.......
Fair is fair. I'm Atheist, but you cannot put that solely on christians. They may have been the end consumers, but it was Africans that packaged the product.
And Gallup says there are still 44% of the peoople still believe in Obama, guess they know how to ask the right quesitlons of the right people to get the answers they want. What they obviously didn't ask was not whether people believe in "organized" religion but do they believe themselves and are they religious themselves. Naturally they wouldn't ask that it would make the athiests feel bad and would therefore be un PC.
And to the twit ranting about the African slave trade. Most of those capturing people in the jungles and selling them for slaves were other Africans, just as Africans are killing each other yet today and that has nothing to do with religion but has to do with thier culture or lack thereof.
The people who campaigned in Great Britain and in America to end slavery were primarily Christians. It is historical fact.
A group of british Quakers started the abolition movement there in 1783. Then a Christian by the name of William Wilberforce took up the cause to end slavery and was highly instrumental in ending slavery in the British Empire.
In America, Harriet Beecher Stowe, a devout Christian, wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin, which caused an uproar among Christians, especially in the North, and has been credited by some with beginning the surge in this country to abolish slavery.
The majority of people in this country...today...that procure abortions are christians. The majority of the people in this country...today...that are incarcerated are christians.
Religion has absolutely nothing to do with a person's character or compassion. Nothing. If you are a jerk without religion, you'll be a jerk with it. If you are a decent human being without it, you'll be a decent human being with it.
Your attempts to glorify religion by showing some religious people were smart, or compassionate, or decent....is ridiculous. No one has ever said that they weren't.
That still doesn't change the fact that the beliefs are not universal, are entirely unproven, and are unlikely in the extreme.
I was addressing the poster who made the erroneous statements about slavery. History has proven that those who led the charge against it were Christians. No room for argument there.
As for prisons, the majority of Muslim converts today are made in two places: college campuses and prisons.
Like it not, America is still predominantly a Christian nation. You are still in the minority for now.
Just as the people who supported slavery were christians...or claimed to be...so that's not really noteworthy or surprising since the entire slavery dispute was between theists on both sides.
Still a small number, mostly young black men who have been disenfranchised from the white christian society...and if they are being converted in prisons then they weren't muslim when they committed the crimes that got them there.
It isn't now, nor has it ever been a christian nation....anymore than it is a white nation or a woman's nation or brown haired nation, or a middle class nation or a right-handed nation. Please stop telling that old lie. It's generally only used by theists who want to "justify" some inequity they want to keep or impose.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Have you read the Constitution? We don't operate on mob rule. The Bill of Rights is all about protecting the rights of individuals and minorities from the majority making rules that disadvantage others. So what is the point of mentioning that people with beliefs similar to mine are in the minority? I feel as if you are saying that as a way of telling me to "mind my place" or something....but that couldn't possibly be right.
Around eighty percent of the U.S. population claim to be Christian. Most consider that a majority.
But, one of the greatest things about America is religious freedom. To worship - or not worship - as one pleases.
Yeah...we all know that the majority of Americans claim judeo christian beliefs. So what? The majority of Americans are also right handed. What is your point?
The point is clear as was stated earlier.
The United States is predominantly a Christian nation.
Whether you like it or not.
Nonsense.
We are a secular nation of diverse beliefs, most of which happen to be some form (of the over 30,000 currently available) of christianity.
There are more right handed people than christians. We aren't a "right handed nation".
So no matter how many times you say it....it's still a lie.
Whether you like it or not.
Hmmm. You play with words, eh?
Okay.
The United States is a predominantly right-handed nation. (90% more or less)
The United States is a predominantly Christian nation. (80% more or less)
If the first fact doesn't bother you, why does the second?
As a person of faith I can identify with that sentiment - What I've found for the most-part is that the interpretation of scripture is fairytale-based! Few interpretations don't invoke scientific truth & reality! Myths abounding, everything is explained through a literal prism - What an insult to human intelligence!!
Organized religion also makes it a point to demand $$$ from us, not saying the causes espoused aren't worthy - But where are the social-effects of all of our giving!? I've been donating most of my life, close to 60yrs, to help eradicated hunger in the world, and the shameful hunger in America - To no avail it seems, because the numbers are spiking all over the place, as people starve and go hungry on this planet everyday! It's sinful and disgusting that this goes on, in the shadow of people gaining weight from being over-fed!!
Many of the non-denominational churches are actually businesses owned by the " pastor ".
Anyone can get a degree in " ministry " on the Internet and rent a building and put up a sign calling it a church.
I've lived in two retirement communities and the nicest homes in both were owned by " preachers ".
Why donate to a church just to enrich a pastor? Some of these preachers are multimillionaires thanks to their ability to drain their
suckersparishioners dry. If you want to tithe, buy a homeless person a sandwich, volunteer with a group that does direct social good, or help someone out of work find a job.SJGuy, I like how you think !! If everyone did the same we'd be a much better world !!!
If there is a hell, its almost full by now with former TV evangelists, pedophile priests, and muslim clerics. The remainder are mostly former politicians and lawyers.
Actually I love God with all my heart. But really dislike the changes that have taken place in churches the past few years. Things such as coffee bars in the lobby, the contemporary music, extremely casual clothing worn, such as very short shorts, jeans with huge holes in them, politics being preached from the pulpit. We need to get back to people respecting the church, pastors preaching the Bible and leaving their politics at home, music that does not make you think you are at a rock concert. People are not attending church like they used to, and frankly I don't either. I have not changed, the church has, and it's not for the better.
Also the so-called religious right in politics can't believe the same Holy Bible I do or they could not lie (especially regarding our president), resent helping the poor and sick and promote the hate that is everywhere. Some of the political e-mails I receive from my 'Christian' friends are so full of lies and hate it's unbelievable. It's a Christian's duty to verify the truth of every e-mail they forward. If you forward false e-mails you are spreading malicious gossip, helping in destroying the fabric of our country and breaking one of the 10 Commandments. It's sad what's happening to our people and the churches.
@Grandma -- contemporary music and casual clothes don't bother me, but you're right on in calling out churches for their political activity. No wonder churches are alienating people; it's worship, not a GOP political rally!
Well said, Grandma. You sound like a decent, reasonable person -- if only more of the kooks in your demographic could follow your example and open their eyes to the truth, I might have a higher opinion of church-going folks.
Respect is earned, the church has not done anything to deserve respect.
Casual clothes don't bother me either, it's the disrespect of those who choose to dress immodestly in God's house. I know many people don't have a huge wardrobe of dressy clothes, and that's not what I am talking about, it's people who come to God's house dressed like they are going to a picnic on the beach - I live in the midwest and we don't have beaches. I think God deserves our best, and it's not what I see from some people who I know can do better. It's a lack of respect not only in churches but everywhere in society. There are places where beachwear is appropriate and places where it's not. That's all I am saying.
So you're saying your god would judge people based on their dress, not the sentiment in their hearts.
Grandma Moses -- I agree with you. It seems to me these mega-churches are little more than entertainment centers with a bunch of right wing politics thrown in.
Grandma, Gods house is within each of us, and, where is it written that God doesn't like the way people dress? Is it God that doesn't like it, or, yourself that doesn't like it?
If people really respected God's creation they would go to church naked and stop try to hide his truth and what they have done to it over the years
Love God with all of your heart? Seen him lately? I believe you mean you love a projection of your internalized parents that you prefer to think of as a Greater Being who agrees with you. And so yeah, I'm sure he doesn't like beach clothing in his house.
Grandma Moses:
LOL. You don't think god doesn't already know what's under those clothes, especially since you give him credit for their creation.
Wouldn't it be disrespectful to your god to cover up that which he created and was "pleased with"? It seems kinda weird and hypocritical to be ashamed of something that was supposedly "created in his image"... The naked human form is obscene, yet if one is to believe your book, it was supposedly your god's greatest creation.. C'mon people! Use a little rationale here!
Not surprised at all given that strident ideology and hate speech that seems to be the primary focus of religious groups today. When is the last time you heard them speaking up for the downtrodden, the sick or the poor. All you hear is gays are bad, contraception is bad, Muslims are bad, evolution is bad, science is bad etc. Their narrow minded and mean spirited hypocrisy is too much for most people
Religion is a waste of time and it is holding us back. We waste so much time trying to pull their hapless followers out of the dark.
It is ridiculous that we are still arguing about access to birth control, and who can marry. There should be no question of a woman's right to control her own body. There should be no question that people should be allowedto marry as they choose, provided they take care of their obligations, and make no attempt to defraud anyone.
Agreed, Mare P.
Religion has always tried to hinder progress and knowledge and human advancement.
That it still does in this day and age strikes me as ridiculous, also.
Oh no, that is not true at all.
Most major religions are attempting to find and support goodness in the world, and the majority of benevolent organizations in the world are faith-based on some religious organizations.
Are these organizations perfect and is there no need for improvement? Of course not.
When the Catholic church hierarchy gets rid of all its pedophile priests and those who protected them, treats its nuns with the respect they deserve, recognizes that we no long live in biblical times and then gets down on its knees and asks its members for forgiveness of its innumerable sins against them and humanity, then and only then, will it have the moral standing to suggest to us (not tell us) how we should live our lives. Otherwise, people will continue to ignore them.
Mike,
That would be a great start--but you still have the problem that the teachings of Christianity are fundamentally evil. They have no biz what so ever influencing our ethics other than what we need to avoid. They serve as a proper cautionary story of the sort of failings humans are prone to.
Anyone who believe the teachings of Christianity are fundamentally evil have never read the bible and are totally unfamiliar with it.
Only an informed person would make that statement.
The teachings of Christianity are not fundamentally evil; its adherents simply have never followed those teachings.
Many have not, that is true. And many have stumbled while trying.
The good news is we can pick ourselves back up and keep on trying.
I can't stand people who pretend to be my friends just because they want me to join their church :( That has got to be a sin right there.
As long as American Christians continue to support the racism and homophobia which are hallmarks of our conservatives in general and our Republicans in particular, all sects of Christianity should and will suffer.
They are defying - nay they are blaspheming - the very tenets of Christ's teachings that they so hypocritically claim to believe and follow. In fact, the most racially segregated hour in the life of an average American is the hour of Sunday services. Does that tell you anything about the failure of modern American Christianity to address racism?
Christianity will continue to suffer and lose the congregation simply because they do not practice what they preach.
Yeah islamists love homosexuals. They love them to death.
Langston, you are absolutely right.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't believe, no explanation will suffice." The Song of Bernadette (1943)
I had a friend ask me why I didn’t comment on websites (MSN and others) much anymore. I replied that no matter what the topic, comment boards were not debates. While even debates are not intended to change a person’s opinion they were intended to provide an opportunity to understand another person’s way of thinking or another view on different topics, where everyone is respected. Too often there exists a level of hatred and bullying among people commenting online. Why would I choose to subject myself to that environment on a daily basis? My friend had nothing to say.
My first comment on this board, and done so simply to say thank you as I could not have put it any more succinctly.
Agreed - and I am done with posting. I will see if I can find a group of adults to discuss ideas respectfully with rather than enduring ideologues only interested in spewing hate. Bye, kiddies!!!
curious georgette. i have something to say, your doing it right now!!!! feel free to say anything, but you must have a thick skin and respect all opinions.
CuriousGeorgette
That is a decent definition of religious faith. The problem with that approach, with FAITH, is that it can land you in any religion you can think of, Islam, Jew, Xian, ... you name it. So clearly it CANNOT be a path to TRUTH--that's fine if you don't care about truth--but some of us desire reality above pleasant thoughts. We want to believe as many true and as few false things as possible.
I often notice that Christians in particular regard any challenges to their beliefs as "hate". Sure some of us hate some aspects of many dominant religions but few 'hate' those whom are caught up in the deceptions. 'Like the religious, hate the religion.' It is clear to me that Christians are so accustomed to getting a free ride--a quiet, conciliatory (mindless?) audience that they interpret even a pointed question as "hatered".
To disagree is not remotely equivalent to dislike or disrespect. To silently disagree tends to be disrespectful.
now that they are done looking in to penn state they should look in to the priest at the church raping little boys . what to soon ? no it's not to soon it's never too soon to look in to children being raped .
My problem is how closed minded they are and they are so unwilling to accept that people just don't believe in a god or that other religions are viewed as wrong. For all we know all religions could be dead wrong and that god isnt even close to what they think it is.
Religion does more harm than good.
Religion, the root of all evil...
I hate these discussions. The matter is so complicated that it is difficult to present a complete perspective in a concise post that people will actually read while not inadvertently generating dissent over things that sounded good in my head but get interpreted in different ways because all I have is text to convey them. Even so, nothing gets resolved without understanding, so let's talk.
Atheists: I am a Christian and I have a lot of faith in my religion. I am not some bible-thumping activist who seeks to make laws to control you behaviour. I have considered your arguments and found them lacking. The more I learn about science and the universe, the more convinced I am that there is an order of some kind directing it....possibly one we can't even comprehend, which fits the definition of omniscient and omnipresent.
I don't think that I'm necessarily right about this, but even if I'm wrong, there is little about Christian beliefs to hate. They teach acceptance and honesty and forgiveness. I know, some people use them as a way to judge, but then you turn around and judge them...often arrogantly, calling them fools for believing in a God. How do you think that makes them feel? Is it any wonder they get offended and all "holier-than-thou?" Many of these people have issues with things the world has done to them, just like you do, and they turn to faith because they don't have any more answers than you do. That's not a bad thing if they embrace the message. None of us knows what's going on in this world. Some know more than others, but nobody has all the answers, and we need answers, so we seek them out in the faith of our choosing.
Even you have a faith, you just don't know it. Without an afterlife to strive for and only oblivion to embrace at the end of your life, you seek meaning in various acts of fulfillment or pleasure in this life. You think you're doing what pleases you, but are you really? No. You have an extrmely powerful brain built by selection pressure to give you chemical rewards for actions conducive to reproductive behaviour and social acceptance. This is why so many of your friends are so damn mean and judgemental towards the religious ones. It makes them feel superior and they get reinforcement from others doing the same thing when in truth, you have no answers. In that way, you're no different from the "bigots" and the prosecutorial bible-thumpers. You are unwitting slaves to a genetic design that exists only to replicate itself no matter the cost.
But why is it like that? The easy way out is to just say it was chance coupled with chemical and selection pressure inevitability and dismiss it, which is what you do. If that floats your boat, that's okay with me, just don't be a jerk about it when you talk to people who want to believe there is something more. It's not their choice, they need something to believe in because nature sucks in ways you can't imagine. They live in bodies that will literally make them feel terrible and kill them if they don't have some kind of emotional positive to grasp. Faith does that for people. It makes them feel loved and appreciated and cared for. If nothing else, isn't that a good reason to leave them alone?
I don't stop there, though. I look into the nature of the universe; how it came to be, how it functions, how life fits into it. I have found no answers. Every theory, where it isn't simply wrong because some ass plugged a number into an equation to make it add up, simply invites more questions. Where we have observable phenomena, they often defy explantion baded on everything we think we know. However, there is one system that defies this. Life itself. In a universe where we can't seem to establish any constant law of anything, there is one law we know to be true - entropy. All things that are ordered become disordered, except for life, which does the opposite. It creates order out of disorder. Higher life-forms evolve out of lower ones. Killl it a million times and it always comes back in places you wouldn't even think it could exist, and it starts the process all over again. And what does all peaceful religion embrace? Order. Every God everyone has ever imagined that was a symbol of some kind of order. Yeah, that order sometimes involves wiping out competing orders, but it's still order, and they still fell and a greater order took their place.
As time has gone on, religions have gotten more peaceful, not less. Even radical Islam has nothing on thirteenth-century Islam or Christianity. Yes, I am aware of the factors that caused that, but what interests me is the inevitability of them. Societies that cooperate and compete always outperform those that don't. Where they are suppressed, they manifest anyway, out of sheer genetic programming to provide for families and loved ones. Process that and tell me there is no God, or at least an order you may not understand fully.
I don't think religion is what you actually hate, and you sure as hell can't claim that is is the main cause of war. States have caused more war and death and suffering than religion ever has. The world wars weren't fought over religion, and they killed more people than all other wars combined. You hate religions as power structures because they stratify things and turn people against each other. You know this, but somehow you'll still turn to a power structure that promises to end religion. Again, no better than the religious, who turn to power structures to get rid of the unfaithful or immoral. In turn, you'll get beat by the next-most flexible society in time. Are you sure there's not a God?
Christians: Stop pissing everybody off. Nothing in the Bible says you get the power to judge. That's God's power alone. Cite me a verse, any verse you think says that, and I'll give you ten to show that you're wrong. I've read it cover to cover five times, and I have studied theology and conversed with ministers who have come to the same conclusion. We are instruments of God's Will, as Jesus exemplified, not the executors of it.
The Word does not give you the power to condemn others. I understand the temptation in a way you can't even imagine - when Jihadists were shooting at me and killing my friends, and I thanked God for my miraculous ability to escape injury when everyone around me was suffering, I wanted to paint a huge cross on the front of my truck and body armor and really make the point that they could do nothing in the face of the Power of God, but that's not our way forward.
We do not judge or condemn or exclude. That's what makes the Word divine. Anyone can be intolerant, or hateful, but we invite all to our table, and if they scorn us, we forgive them and invite them again, and again if need be. Nobody is perfectly capable of doing it all the time, which is why we need Christ's love and forgiveness, but we must hold the message in our hearts and do our utmost to promote it.
You don't tell sinners that they are wrong, you show them. You keep your values close to your heart, values the Word taught you, and you build a strong family and a strong life with them. You show them how things can be better, and they will inevitably come to understand as their own lives, lacking a God, start to fall apart like a house built upon the sand. There is a divine purpose in natural selection and economic selection as well, but do not judge them. Pray for their souls and do what you can to bring them into the fold...peacefully. They may reject you, but keep faith. God will not judge you for your failures, only your heart.
I rest my case.
you're right. It IS the root of all evil. Spirituality is so different than the man created religion which is nothing more than a pious way to control your life, your money, your thoughts and every aspect of your life. And so many charlatans have fooled the masses over and over and over. When will we learn?
Life on earth was created by Extra Terrestrials and the Bible and The Book of Enoch proves it. Zechariah Stichin was a Prophet. That is a Truth no organized religion and no organized government will ever provide for you, you have to do your own homework on Truth whether Celestial or Terrestrial, and therefore know better. So the Bible is The Word Of God, and is well worth growing the grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. What do you think that the "Cloud" was that Jesus ascended into in Acts 1. How about the "bright light from "heaven:" the sky, space, that even IDENTIFIED Himself to Saul of Tarsus in Acts 22. What exactly did Moses and 3 milliion Israelites follow as it deliberately moved and stopped as it lead them out of Egypt? What was the "Whirlwind" that took Enoch from the earth? According to the terminology of the day Elijah refered to such IFO's as "Chariots of fire" in the sky, what about those? Ezekiel in His account saw "lighted wheels" that were deliberately flying as piloted. Job had conversations with a personage who was within a "whirlwind." Speaking of "whirlwinds" how about those "Crop-Circles:" "'Bread of Life come down out of Heaven," and those(real ones) are obviously formed by some kind of "whirlwind." How about the Nazca Lines which dated at 2000 year old? So what was that "Star of Bethlehem" that amongst also Celestial conjunctions, was proof that as the Son of God was on the earth, so was the Father?
I could write on and on to only substantiate my case, but what about you? The Ancient world had an entirely different outlook on things these days called: "unexplained," "alien," "unidentified." Would the religious so-called "authorities" want you to believe within or outside their "boxes" that they shape only to deceive you? How about the corrupt politicians... ALL OF THEM?
One nice thing about the "Freedom of Religion" is to keep, to continue to learn and therefore "EVOLVE," in keeping the RELIGION OF FREEDOM.
Obey Acts 2:38
Spirituality is goodness without external assistance.
Cpl. Jamison
Don't you even BEGIN to see how insulting, condescending and presumptuous that is?? First you assume I am lost and desperate, miserable--and indeed I might appear that way after you come at me with that sort of thoughtless rhetoric. Then you assert without any supporting ideas or evidence that my foundations are on shifting sands when it is painfully clear that YOURS are built on vanishing clouds! Don't expect respectful reception after coming at ME with that sort of mindless dogma as tho I were a stupid child!
I know plenty of very happy highly successful very religious ppl but the most whole, complete and successful of all are reality based not religious.
Cpl. Jamison
The operative term here is "we"--as in you and your fellow Christians. There are many laws that are far easier to understand and easy to demonstrate but it is clear from this statement that you 'learn science' from religious sites not from science text or scientists. You are not interested in questioning your faith but only reinforcing it any way possible including miss-using science that you don't even bother to understand.
Not even close to the truth--crystals for example are inanimate (non-living) objects that grow from a disordered solution into a highly ordered structure. Entropy DOES NOT say that everything must become less ordered, the entire planet earth can easily do exactly the opposite even without any life present. Entropy states that the universe as a WHOLE must become more disordered. (or any closed system) So as the sun becomes less ordered it can cause the earth (for example) to become MORE ordered. Since the sun is a million times as massive as earth it's not hard to immagine that it's gradual consumption could turn 10,000 earths into ultimately 'ordered' objects even if they started out as random liquid solutions.
Do your self a favor and don't pretend to understand much about science and the universe because such arrogance really makes you look foolish.
Cpl Jamison
I would have to agree with the poster above me. You see, I don't have a problem with people believing in whatever they want as long as they do not try and make me believe what they believe. This Sir, is the source of most discontent. Now, tounge in cheek, In America we have a hard time getting many of our citizens to share anything. The First Lady of the United States are criticized because she tries to get people to eat healthy. We hardly give away anything and try to hoard all things that are good, for ourselves. Knowing this, I am more than a leery of those that try to give (force upon) me eternal life, even though I never asked for it???? You can understand my point, Can't you?
Cpl.Jamieson, I would just like to remind you that one need not be a Christian to have a faith in a God, nor to serve a God. You see, that is where the Christians make their mistake. The see no value in any other man's God, only their own version of the Christian God. And that makes them come across as arrogant and self righteous, two qualities that are indeed difficult to stomach; particularly when they are employed to show the rightness of your existence as opposed to the wrongness of another's.
I know many non-Christian believers in God. I know many non-Christian who are devout and who are much more Christ-like in their behaviors and attitudes than most Christians I have known. And I can tell you without a doubt, they are far more tolerant of the Christians than the Christians are of them.
In short, pick your flavor. Believe in the God that most closely aligns to your world view. But realize, that is your God, and your God is not the God of all. Nor can you support, with any degree of certainty, that the Christian belief system is the only true and right belief system. It just happens to be the one you decided to believe in and follow. Chances are just as great that you are completely in error regarding everything you believe as anyone else is.
There can only be ONE God - Even Merriam Webster describes God as Supreme. And there logically can not be 2 supreme beings. So somebody must be right and somebody must be wrong in their description of and assignment of power.
All religions can be wrong but they all can not be correct since they disagree and two opposite ideas about the same object (God) can not both be true at the same time. Study the law of non-contradiction
Jesus can not both be the only way and one of the ways ways
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I think a lot of people have lost faith in ORGANIZED CHRISTIANITY because it has strayed from the truth and started to teach to itchy ears
markw207 -
You are being rather deceptive on that aren't you? Half-truths are also half lies... Just picking ONE of the FOUR definitions for god listed in the Merriam Webster dictionary, to prove your point is disingenuous to say the least, if not down right dishonest... I would say "Nice try" but your obvious notion that no one has the slight modicum of intelligence required to prove your point to be a complete fallacy is too insulting to merit a statement that might be misconstrued as a compliment.
Oh, just for anyone who wants to know, but doesn't feel like looking it up, here is the COMPLETE Merriam Webster dictionary entry for "god" quoted word-for-word from the dictionary itself.
Definition of GOD
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship;specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
4
: a powerful ruler
And that's just the definition of the word "god" used as a noun... there's even a further definition for it being used as a verb, but I believe I've made my point.
And by the way, you can have more than one supreme being.. Hypothetically, it simply be two or more beings who are the pinnacle of power and yet are equal in that supremacy.
Cpl. Jamison
Thank you
Friends,
If we continue to insist on positions that hold Man against Man, Man against God, and God against Man, we are equally hopeless. Isn't the goal of individual and collective happiness a goal of Believers and Non-Believers alike? Don't we live reality into meaning through thought, word and deed; regardless of the language we use and whether we see it or not? Free will - under Church and/or State - is not without cost as every “Yes” costs “No” beyond count and every “No” costs “Yes” beyond count. Both carry the cost of consequence. If we humans are ever to achieve our individual and group destinies, it must be Yes and No. It simply must. The question is, ‘What do all of us stand to gain and lose and are all of us willing to sacrifice?
Until all of us find the seed of our own humanity and strive to grow happiness; until we cease dooming one another to unhappiness, neither Man nor God will win.
Live Love. Give thanks.
-Peace.
DDUUUUUHHHHHHHHHH!! What a bunch of morons!! First of all the "image-makers" here shape the paradigm about "organized religion" and the "church;" WHAT CHURCH???!!! If you bother to read the Bible, you would see that not the Prophets nor Jesus cared in any way for the religious establishments of the day. Judaism is not the religion of the "Old Testament," and Christianity is not the religion of the "New Testament." The fact of the matter is that the "Father in Heaven" aka "Creator of All" in the Sumerian accounts is a WHOLE TESTAMENT God; and why "His only begotten Son(John 3:16) taught the Prayer: "Our Father who art in Heaven(Space)...." Because that is where He is and is from!! Of course there is an afterlife: it is called The Law of Conservation of Energy including that biochemical electrical signature that is your name, and you living within or outside of the body, as Jesus said about the Kingdom; by His and His Laws of Physics you are then Judged. The difference between "man's" version of that Law of Physics and God's version is that Energy can be Created, and can be destroyed: Ablated in a "Lake of Fire" as it is called. So of course Energy can be and is changed, but how it changes depends upon you. Science is the Knowledge of Creation, not it's opposite unlike the world's conniving deceivers out there to keep you enslaved. From the Caste system of Hinduism, which keeps the people of India poor and hungry to the "Caste" system in the West ran by Secret Societies, false Religions and corrupt Politics. History is a bout the same old struggle from the days of Egypt of a greedy few looking to keep their rulership and control over the many. True Evolution is a Creation aspiring itself after the inspiration of it's Creator who guides that Evolution. Flesh gives birth to flesh after it's own kind; living things adapt and overcome things in their environments. The "7 Day" Creation account of course is not 7 earth days, but a simplified Geologic time-table of the different epochs of earth History since it was created out of another planet after a celestial collision, and the rest of that planet became the "Hammered Bracelet" or asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. It is much easier to understand a measurement of time(a week) which we still use today in the framework of time of earth years of History than the long words that I do not even remember from Geology class.
Knowledge of course, is power. And in these days Knowledge/Power is a tool which those in power seek to keep themselves in power and their underlings under their control. "My people perish for a lack of Knowledge..." Hosea 4:6. A parrot can be taught to talk, and it can quote from the Bible or quote one of mankind's pathetic feeble-minded Godless philosophies, but just because a parrot can speak does not make it intelligent. From Genesis to the Book of Revelation which expressly speaks of those corrupt individuals in the world, and the culmination and the collapse of their control, the Bible is The Word Of God, and the revealer of the true nature of organized religions and governments that oppress you and keep you dumbed down. "...His name is called 'The Word Of God.'" Revelation 19:13
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1: 26-27
All I read here is man trying to return the favor in creating God after each one's own image. "Thanks, but no thanks-" God There of course is a plurality in the God that did the creating, only one Father, and the rest of the Celestial family.
The Bible is the ONLY Account of Creation and Contact between "Extra Terrestrials" and their Terrestrial Creations.
38 "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." 1 Corinthians 15:38-40
The opposite of "terrestrial" is "celestial" or "EXTRA TERRESTRIAL!" Now that is a hard one!! lol Clearly, plain as day, the Bible speaking of flesh other than the flesh of this earth. This is pretty elementary to me, but all over your heads. Now if you have a spirit in you, and no spirituality is NOT goodness without external assistance; it is the greater 90% of the Human brain's capacity, you might be wondering what you can do. If you want access to this capacity, "those who enter, enter by the door, but thieves and robbers come up another way."
John 10:1 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."
Acts 2:37-38 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Obey Acts 2:37-38!
And just what is the reason for this decline in confidence in the churches, and less Faith in God in America? It is because AMERICA IS A CONQUERED NATION!!!!!!!!!
" And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." Revelation 6:2
Esau-Edom, for those knowledgeable of their Bibles, Jacob's opposite and opposing evil twin in the Pulpits. America went forth conquering and to conquering in it's no-win wars, but the only nation that has ended up conquered is America itself. False-religion: "Judeo-Christianity" on a "white horse:" Judaism and Christianity are opposites; communism/socialism on a "red horse," commercialism/control over the judiciary on a "black horse," militarism/military industrial complex on a "pale(green)horse;" war and crime are businesses orchestrated by the lovers of money. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil: "follow the money!!" Krushchev was right, America was taken without so much as firing a shot.
Since 1948 does America have:
More crime or less?
More divorce and broken homes or less?
More crime or less?
More government corruption or less?
More wars in which there is a privatization of the profit, and the debt for the people or less?
More of everything that is a curse to a society no matter what it is, or less?
AMERICA IS CONQUERED!!!
Angela LD
Ironic, no...pathetic, yes. Our Founding Fathers, PURPOSELY, wrote in our constitution for the separation of Church and State, and look where we are now. They must be rolling over in their graves...
There is absolutely no where in the US Constitution that it states "separation of Church and State." It does say that the Constitution of the USSR. but since the US is overtaken by the "Red Horse," communism/socialism symbolized by the color red, that is why that phrase is repeated like vomit out the mouths of the ignorant.
The First Amendment basically states that the government can endorse religion, but cannot enforce it; it can also not prohibit the free exercise and free expression thereof. The abolition of God, let alone reference to any church in this big lie of "separation of church and state" is therefore unConstitutional, and so Faith expressions can be placed, said, or done anywhere. The 501-C3 Tax Code gives tax-exemption to Churches provided that they do not talk about political: social and individual issues. Those in The Beast crying the mantra regarding separation hypocritically do not mind getting the government to gag the Church. Per Romans 13, people, particularly God's people do not have to submit themselves to unGodly authority, but have the responsibilities written the Declaration of Independence in dealing with such an entity.
America is ruled by a two-horned/two-partied "professional" dialectic acting as a hysteria. "a beast with two horns like a lamb, but spake like a dragon..." Revelation 13:11. This, a wholly different ruling entity than the REPUBLIC that was set up by the founding fathers. That is what all the sinkholes are about, people rolling over in their graves that cared about the future of their nation.
The earliest American reference which included the statement "separation of Church and State," was in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. Even in this reference that statement effectively means that the Church can be involved in affairs and individuals of the State, but the State cannot dictate what the Church can or cannot speak out upon. It does not mean that the Church(any Church) cannot speak out on political matters or maintain a Biblical position in relation to any laws set in place by the State. This is consistent with the "Free Exercise" clause of the First Amendment, as well as the government "respecting an establishment of religion:" defined as the enforcement of any particular Church denomination. This preventing the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England from sole religious influence in the new Nation. Most of the early settlers of America were fleeing religious persecutions by the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church in mainland Europe. Catholicism in it's dogma is not even real Christianity. If the founding fathers are rolling in their graves about anything, it is on account of how ignorant, if not also STUPID people are these days. Now the Bible is effectively outlawed, and called "hate-speech" by those so stupid, decadent, and hypocritical, that they have legitimized their hate of all things pure and righteous.
You people really need to read your Bible and read your Constitution and other documents and writings of the founding fathers. Absolutely moronic!! You should be ashamed to called yourselves Americans for what you have allowed to happen to this country, and by your ignorance and stupidity will continue to happen. You will be poor and decadent, begging for bread on your run down streets when you finally wake up and realize what has happened to your Nation.
WTF does the year 1948 have to do with anything?
God exists. He healed me.