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Subscribe to RSSThe gunman reportedly never said a word while shooting 71 people, killing 12, in a soldout show for "The Dark Knight Rises." NBC News' Miguel Almaguer reports.
Updated at 10:14 p.m. ET: A graduate student's attack in a sold-out theater near Denver showing the new Batman movie, in which 12 people were killed early Friday, was the culmination of two months of meticulous planning that included a potentially deadly booby trap left in the suspect's home for investigators, authorities said.
Fifty-eight other people were injured, many of them seriously, in the shootings shortly after midnight at the Century 16 Movie Theaters complex in Aurora, Colo. Earlier reports had said 59 people were injured, but police revised that number at a news conference Friday night. All but a small handful of the injured had been shot, Police Chief Dan Oates said.
Thirty people remained in area hospitals Friday night, 11 of them in critical condition, after a carefully orchestrated attack in which the suspect, identified as James Eagan Holmes, 24, bought all of his weapons and ammunition legally beginning in May.
Late Friday, the family of Alex Sullivan, 27, said in a statement that he was among the dead, the Denver Post and The Associated Press reported. Heart-wrenching photographs taken earlier Friday showed Sullivan's father, Tom, grieving and pleading for information about his son.
Federal and local enforcement officials said Holmes was sheathed in a helmet, a gas mask, a tactical bulletproof vest, throat and groin protectors and tactical gloves. All of the gear was black.
Holmes was armed with two .40-caliber Glock handguns, a Remington 870 single-barrel pump shotgun, a Smith & Wesson AR-15 assault-style rifle and as many as 6,000 rounds of ammunition, Oates said.
The scene also appeared to have been specially targeted for maximum carnage — the local premiere of one of the most eagerly awaited movies of the year, "The Dark Knight Rises," the third in the series of director Christopher Nolan's Batman films.
In a statement, Nolan expressed "profound sorrow at the senseless tragedy that has befallen the entire Aurora community."
Aurora, Colo., Police Chief Dan Oates says the suspect in the theater shootings bought his weapons and ammunition legally.
After he was arrested outside the theater, Holmes told police that he was the Joker, a reference to one of the most prominent villains in the Batman canon, a law enforcement official told NBC News on condition of anonymity. (The official said the suspect had dyed his hair red or orange, which isn't typically associated with the green-haired Joker character, who doesn't appear in "The Dark Knight Rises.")
Aurora police said Holmes also booby-trapped his apartment with an elaborate network of wire-connected bottles containing an unknown liquid, presumably intended to go off when authorities arrived to canvass his home.
Holmes told police about the trap before they arrived, however, and investigators hadn't entered the apartment Friday night. They were analyzing gases and examining photographs of the scene to figure out how to deal with the materials and had decided to defer any action until Saturday at the earliest, Oates said.
"It's not something I've ever seen before," said Oates, who said that the area was evacuated and that police were expected to remain on the scene "for hours or days."
Holmes, a graduate student from San Diego who was in the process of withdrawing from the neuroscience program at the University of Colorado-Denver medical school, put up no resistance when he was arrested in a parking lot at the theater, police said. He retained legal counsel and wasn't answering investigators' questions, they said.
"We are confident he acted alone," Oates said of Holmes, who was scheduled to appear in Arapahoe County District Court on Monday morning to face unspecified charges. Authorities refused to speculate on his possible motive.
One of those killed was Jessica Ghawi, a sportswriter who survived a June 2 mass shooting at a mall in Toronto in which two people were killed and seven others were injured. Ghawi blogged under the name Jessica Redfield.
Defense officials told NBC News that a sailor at Buckley Air Force Base in Aurora was missing and presumed to have been killed. A second sailor and two airmen from Buckley were also shot. Their identities and conditions weren't available.
'Mass chaos'
Authorities said the gunman appeared at the front of the theater at 12:39 a.m. (2:39 a.m. ET), about 20 minutes into the film, and released two canisters of gas. Witnesses told reporters that the gunfire erupted during a shootout scene. Authorities responded within a minute and a half, Oates said.
"It was mass chaos," witness Jennifer Seeger told TODAY. The gunman shot the ceiling and then "he threw in the gas can, and then I knew it was real."
Witnesses said the gunman entered the theater at Aurora Town Center through an emergency exit door. But a federal law enforcement official told The Associated Press that the suspect bought a ticket and went in as part of the crowd. He is believed to have propped open an exit door as the movie was playing, the official said.
Aurora is a suburb less than 10 miles east of downtown Denver and just 15 miles northeast of Littleton, near the scene of what had been the worst mass shooting in Colorado: the Columbine High School massacre on April 20, 1999, when two gunmen killed 12 fellow students and a teacher and wounded 26 other people before killing themselves.
Three of the suspect's four weapons were found in his white Hyundai parked at the back entrance to the theater; one of the handguns was found in the theater.
Law enforcement officials told NBC News that the weapons were legally bought from local stores of two national chains — Gander Mountain Guns and Bass Pro Shop — beginning in May.
Oates didn't say what kind of magazines were used, but he said "many, many rounds were fired." Some rounds penetrated an adjoining theater and injured at least one person, he said.
Jennifer Seeger, who sat in the second row of the theater when the gunman arrived, tells NBC's Brian Williams about her ordeal.
James Yacone, the FBI's agent in charge in Denver, said there was no indication of a link to terrorism. Holmes wasn't on any federal law enforcement watch lists, authorities told NBC News, and Oates said he had no police record beyond a speeding ticket last year.
The few people who had any contact with Holmes described him as a recluse who lived with his shades drawn and who, when he did meet someone, revealed little.
"He kept to himself, didn't like a lot of attention," said Melvin Evans, a neighbor.
Another neighbor, Kaitlyn Fonzi, said, "We never heard anything abnormal until midnight this morning, when we heard loud techno music playing" from Holmes' apartment.
'Pain and grief ... too intense for words'
Gov. John Hickenlooper said at a news conference that "our hearts are broken as we think of the friends and family of the victims of this senseless tragedy." He called the shootings "the act of an apparently very deranged mind."
"The pain and grief (are) too intense for words, but we can't let it keep us from our lives," Hickenlooper said. "We are going to come back stronger from this, but it is obviously going to be a very long process."
President Barack Obama cut short a campaign visit to Florida to return to Washington ahead of schedule.
He called for reflection after the attack. "There are going to be other days for politics," Obama said during an abbreviated appearance in Fort Myers, where he led a moment of silence on behalf of the victims and their families.
More on this story from breakingnews.com
At a campaign appearance in Bow, N.H., Republican presidential challenger Mitt Romney said: "Today is to remember and reach out and remember our blessings in life. Each of us will hold family close and spend a little less time thinking about the worries of our day and helping those in need of compassion."
'We need to go'
Moviegoers described scenes of chaos and terror inside the movie theater.
Tanner Coon, 17, describes seeing flashes of gunfire, which he thought were fireworks, amid the chaos of trying to escape the shooting as he was "trying to calm" his friend's 12-year-old brother.
Tanner Coon, who was in the theater with a friend and the friend's 12-year-old brother when the shooter came in, said he told them to "get down" when he heard the gunshots.
The shooter fired off about 20 rounds and there was then a pause and a "period of quietness when everybody started running out," Coon said.
"I slipped on some blood and landed on a lady. I shook her and said, 'We need to go.' There was no response, so I presume she was dead," Coon said.
PhotoBlog: More images from the scene of the shooting in Aurora
Paris premiere canceled
Film critics have noted the dark, anxiety-fueled themes of "The Dark Knight Rises," which reminded some of the atmosphere in the days after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. It had been projected to be one of the biggest films of the year, and theaters around the world began showing it at 12:01 a.m. Friday.
"Warner Bros. and the filmmakers are deeply saddened to learn about this shocking incident. We extend our sincere sympathies to the families and loved ones of the victims at this tragic time," the studio said in a statement.
Chris Dodd, chairman of the Motion Picture Association of America, said in a statement:
"We share the shock and sadness of everyone in the motion picture community at the news of this terrible event. We extend our prayers and deepest sympathies to the victims, their loved ones and all those affected by this tragedy."
Miguel Almaguer, F. Brinley Bruton, Kristen Dahlgren, Bill Dedman, Jay Gray, Charles Greene, Garrett Haake, Ian Johnston, Zoya Khan, Jim Miklaszewski, Daniel Strieff, Mike Taibbi, Shawna Thomas, David Wyllie and Edgar Zuniga of NBC News and NBC stations KUSA of Denver and KNSD of San Diego contributed to this report.
Related content from NBCNews.com:
- Theater shooting suspect was buying guns, dropping out of neuroscience program
- Police:'Sophisticated' booby-trap in Colorado shooting suspect's apartment
- Families, friends anxiously await word of missing moviegoers
- Raw audio documents eerie first moments of Colo. theater shooting
- Mass murderers often not mentally ill, but seeking revenge, experts say
- Woman who died in Colo. movie rampage narrowly escaped being shot last month
- Security at movie theaters comes into focus in wake of shootings
- People with same name as suspect hounded on social media
- Witnesses react online to 'Dark Knight' theater shooting
Another nut case.
This is why you CANT yell "fire"! in a crowded theatre..
I heard the movie was good and very anti Romney.. ;]
When the mass school shooting started they really started something awful and its just been downhill from there.
Cheers
I think Holmes' quote about a "crowded theater" was meant metaphorically, not in response to the shooting of Abe Lincoln, who knows?
The kook was probably listening to Rush Blowhard.
this is what second amendment remedies gets you
and its not gonna get any better just worst unless we stop the madness and stop giving into fear
we can change this if we instead make up our minds
and decide to have a civilized society. thought thus reality
People just seem to be losing their damn minds. Seemingly, one cannot go out for an enjoyable evening these days. Never thought I'd see the day when metal detectors would be needed in a movie theater. Heck just put them up all over. Supermarkets, department stores, amusement parks, ALL schools, yes, even elementary schools, restaurants, hospitals, what have you. Cameras too! WTH is wrong with people? Go see a movie, never come home again.
Speaking of nut case, I suppose this will be the latest Rush Limbaugh scandal: It is a Democratic conspiracy to get people to...
people are dead and you have low lifes making political remarks! shame on you
As much as I get more and more used to it, I'll never understand why our world is going up in flames, and I refuse to accept it. All I can say is, kids need to be RAISED, not just born and forgotten, or raised by nannies. Kids need loving parent(s) to cherish them, and guide them. When they have nothing to look up to, and have never felt love, this is what happens. I am so sorry to all the innocent people in that theater. May they find peace soon as well as the loved ones of the lost.
Not another nut case.
Just routine domestic terrorism committed by Americans on fellow Americans. At this annual rate of homicide, more Americans would have been killed by their fellow Americans than all of Al Queda in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and Pakistan during the entire 10 years of wars.
In a nation that glorifies the waging of wars and condones the assassinations of innocent civilians half way around the world including two of its citizens living abroad, the chickens have come home to roost.
WTF is wrong with some of the people in Colorado, one of my absolute favorite states to visit, but one with more than a few troubled souls.
I hope the police have the right suspect in custody, and if he is found guilty, he gets life as a minimum !!
Yes sir, you heard my order correctly. I'll have a Clark bar, some jujubees, a hot dog, large popcorn without butter and 2 more 40 round magazines for my 9mm. And please give me one of those convenient carrying trays. Sure hope i get a good seat and if I hear just 1 cell phone ring, I'm going to explode all over this place................later on, guess what? Ring ring..
YELDARB 27
I am wondering if this was you or one of your loved ones caught up in this mess if you would think to make that comment again?
just wonderin
Too bad the police didn't shoot him dead on the spot. Would have saved the taxpayers a lot of money.
Hummmmmmmm ..... Everybody racing to the nearest theater to watch this movie and be shot? lol
What is wrong with you @!$%#s making political comments about this. This tragedy has nothing to do with politics, it is the actions of one sick individual. Those making jokes and political comments should be ashamed of themselves. I am sure if one of their friends or love ones were among those injured or killed they would not be cracking jokes about this incident. My heart goes out to the friends and families of all of those who were injured or killed. I hope those who were injured make quick and complete recoveries from their injuries and those who lost loved ones in this tragedy can get the help they need to deal with their loss. I just wish that the cops had just shot the perpetrator on sight instead of arresting him. Now all of the victims and their friends and families will have to endure a trial and the inevitable attempts by some slick defense lawyer to get the guy off on some insanity plea. This guy deserves to be put to death and have it done quickly, not after a decade or more of appeals.
There have been 3 shootings like this in the last few days. Is America falling apart at the seams? What is causing people to shoot into crowds? Do they not have any feelings for human life what so ever? If you don't like living in America move out but don't kill innocent people!!!
mowdy5gs
This is why you CANT yell "fire"! in a crowded theatre..
I heard the movie was good and very anti Romney.. ;]
When the mass school shooting started they really started something awful and its just been downhill from there.
Cheers
This has nothing to do with politics, just like you. You want to make a political statement, why don't you run for office and see if you can do any better. In the meantime, go pet your dog!
MoonBeamRacer - "lol" on this board? WTH is wrong with you???????? Disgusting!
24 yr.old shooter....Generation X-Box/Playstation....a decade of dark movies, violent video games....A Dozen players killing each other over internet gamer websites..Hundreds of these interactive gamer websites..... Disconnected from reality.....only there is no "Reset" button in real life....dead is really dead in the real world...I don't recall anyone going on a killing spree after playing Mario Bros......
Gansta Rap on MTV....Turf wars/drive-by's all over the place in Chicago and elsewhere....It's crazy, crazy out there....
What I see is the Sins of the Great grandfathers of the Bloody Third Colorado Volunteers at Sand Creek being visited on the Great grandsons and daughters in places like Littleton, Aurora and Arvada, Co. This is merely 149-year-old chickens coming home to roost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_creek_massacre
And who has been the president for the last 3 years? and how much money do we pay this presidency
now 35% more then any other presidency. Food, gas entertainment if you can afford to get entertained and the cost of living has gotten out of control. and you wonder why people do this. STRESS! now we have to pay for this JACK@SS for life in prison costing us more money, since people don't want a death penalty.
@Mike in Delray, Don't forget the ease to obtain the weapons he used. Utilizing his right to bear arms.
Welcome to America where there are more guns than people; and the NRA will make sure that it stays this way.
OMG !!! I am completely in shock reading this bad news!! may the Lord heal those families; may he be strong in presence and his almighty with them in this aweful moments..I can't help but keep asking why why why in a movie theater; why not take all that disappointment and direct the gun to his head..why little kids and unarmed people just having fun unsuspected? why such an evil? I can understand that the gun man has a screw loose completely for whatever reason but why innocent have to pay? this tragedy is too big to make it a political statement, so those of us out there that like to make everything related with politics (myself included) lets have decency and join in pray for these families at this difficult hour! may the decease rest in peace, may they families find strenghts and sense out of this tragedy may the Lord help us all always and deliver us from evil always..too upset to keep going writing folks..
Aurora is mostly black Ishmael...Wise up and get diversified.
Tom if there were no guns there would be matches and always bottle of alcohol or whatever, a person has decided to harm people..lots of them and guns are just another tool..he would have used whatever and could even do more damage if he just would set the place on fire or something if he did not have access to guns..read my previous comment hold your political agenda and pray for all involved, including ourselves reading the news
He's innocent until proven guilty.
Maybe he's a neighborhood watch member? Maybe he was just standing his ground against a bunch of aggressors? Maybe all the so-called victims were wearing hoodies? Maybe Fox News should give him a supportive interview? Maybe someone should call in the NRA to help straighten all this out for us?
If this guy was a Muslim, he'd be labeled a "Terrorist"....I wonder if this crazy fool will be labeled the same?
I suspect that our bad economy amplifies the tendency of some people to crack, go on a shooting rampage, and perhaps hope to die by their own hand.
But we really don't know what may have motivated this man. It is possible he could have been acting as a one-man terrorist cell, either for Islamic extremists, or for some domestic fringe group. But personally, I suspect that he is just a lone nut.
What a dirty low life SOB. First you have scalpers charging 300 dollars for a ticket on ebay then this nut shows up. This whole country has gone to hell.
I am soo sorry to anyone who was in this. What's wrong with people? War is not the way to settle things. Shootouts are not the way to get revenge on someone. Injuring people is not the way to make you feel better. America is falling apart. I'm not sure we'll make it through 2012. RIP to the 14 people who died. X( I wish your dreams would have come true.(song Mad World by Gary Jules turns on.)I hope you have a funeral. And if you don't, people are messed up.
I doubt he was religious at all. Just some deadbeat loser who couldn't make anything more of himself other than possibly a burger flipper at Wendy's.
What is really insane is the gun violence that happens every day in this country.
Cue the gun nuts and NRA supporters. Take it away, people. Excuse it, justify it. We know... guns don't kill people. blah blah blah
Where are your 'conceal and carry' guys when you need them? They never seem to be around ...or else they're too chickensh!t to get involved.
I agree with Sandie-644591. This is what we have become. We've had metal detectors and armed security in our local schools,stores,and movie theaters for quite some time here after my once serene community became invaded by gangs,drugs and urban crime. It's the new normal. We just need to embrace it.
please let all the rabid 'any person, any weapon, any day' supporters of an unrestricted right to bears arms, any arms, any day, by anyone, come out and support this guano psycho individual....lets hear it.....I don't care WHAT has happened in your life....doesn't justify this, or your ability to so easily DO this.....sure, sure sure...guns don't kill people, people kill people...spare me the tired talking point fertilizer.....no matter what this guys problem, had he ONLY had a ....bat, a stick, Hell, even a knife.....would dozens be dead or wounded before his personal 'issues' were brought to an end?...Tell me misguided interpretation of the Constitutional mandate for DEFENSE OF THE COUNTRY BY A MILITIA warrants this on a daily basis......THEN TELL THE FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS.....go ahead....but tell em your name...and show em your face...in public...when you do
mothermayhem3255...(#1.24) and TomTom-72..(#1.25)....
It's not the NRA Promoting and Glorifying Gun Violence....that Award goes to Hollywood and VideoGame Makers and GangstaRappers, thank you very much ....
Fourteen dead, Fifty injured and more will probably succumb to their wounds!
And surprise, surprise the shooter is a man. What the hell is wrong with the male population in America? You don't ever hear of a woman going ballistic, shooting anything in sight over who knows what. Something went wrong in his small mediocre and meaningless life, probably inconsequential in nature and by all that is evil now innocents will pay the price. Yeah, it's takes a real macho, real tough guy to take a weapon and kill and injure innocent people out having a good time. Makes me glad I am an emotional woman able to vent with tears or words anything which upsets my little world instead of resorting to violence and death. I am really pissed right now.
Prayers and condolences offered in earnest for the victims, both deceased and injured and their loved ones.
Be EXCELLENT to each other.
Probably the globalist paid the guy so Americans will be strong armed into into giving up our 2nd amendment rights.
The world is getting crazier everyday
@ Patsycamoure3
How is your point in anyway related to this horrible shooting? What in the world are you talking about?
How many 'lone nutcases' does there need to be before we get serious and actually focus on the root of the problem?
This guy might be a vet, nothing against being a vet (I'm one myself) - but he was well armed, had tear gas, a gask mask, and seemed pretty well prepared for this rampage. Will have to wait and see though. It's just that we have a decades worth of war veterans coming home, and some are pretty messed up. The hate some soldiers developed for the people "over there" in order to cope is truly poisonous, eventually it doesn't just stay focused on the Afghanis or Iraqis when they lose that outlet.
If half of that audience had conceal carry there would be a lot more innocent people alive this morning.... and one dead perp!
Miss Feminazi USA, is that you???????
For those of you taking advantage of this to get across your political agenda, please just go away. You would actually make much more of a difference just by saying a small Prayer for the families involved.
I play violent video games. I'm 38 yrs old. I own a home. I have 6 pets. I brake for squirrels. You can't blame video games people. Thats just dumb.
I don't own a gun. I certainly wouldn't pool in responsible gun owners and enthusiasts with people who flip their lid and shoot up people. That is not fair and it isn't right. If someone loses it and wants to harm innocent people does it really matter what tool the person uses? It's the individual that is broken. Not the tools in his hands.
Why were there ANY children under 16 in the theater at midnight? Summer or not, they should have been home in bed. A three month old killed? Why was that infant even taken to a movie at that age, and especially that movie?
Old Papi
He could have just as easily made a bomb in his basement if he so desired and caused a great deal more carnage. It just so happens that a gun was his weapon of choice instead of a bomb. I remember a few years back a man in China took out almost an entire class of elementary students armed with only a knife. You can't put the blame on the weapon. The blame rests on the shoulders of the aggressor and nowhere else.
HOTTICKET-2304234
So speaking the truth makes me a feminazi? Whatever, you couldn't be more off base. I love men and have no quarrel with them. I just don't get why mass murderers are always men.
Read between Pasty's lines Shepherd. I know what she is getting at and I really wonder what the comments will be when they parade this perp for the cameras.
Just watch. Newsviners never surprise me with what they will post.
THis is what the media wants...panic and overreaction. Look up the stats...violent crime is way down in this country. Having metal detectors in theatres is HUGE overreaction...just like the TSA was to terrorism (a risk equal to bathtubs in terms of deaths on an annual basis).
Your reaction is going to destroy freedom with no cost-benefit or risk vs reward justification. Despite all the sensational stories in our media that makes them money through panic, this country is safer than ever when it comes to violent crime...and the flu kills 3 times as many people as gun murders every year.
Guns, drugs, new disease, and terrorism are some of the lowest statistical threats to life in this country. Please stop reacting like you did...that will only make our society suck despite all the lowering of crime rates. You don't add all that security with no regard to the data, unless you are completely irrational.
And this is the warped logic from the gun nuts. More guns would have prevented it. My god, can you imagine if another 20, 30, or more had guns in that theater?!! Sick sick sick!! Ok, im gonna say it...i hope a few of the dead were card carrying members of the NRA. Maybe this would help bring them to their senses. But i seriously doupt that!
No kidding. I get sad when I see that Sarah Mclaughlin humane society commercial - and I love gory horror movies and violent videogames.
I do own a few, and I agree. There are stable and responsible gun owners and collectors, and there are the nutters. Even some of the nutters are harmless though too... you know, the guys who reaaallly like guns, a little too much...
I partially disagree, only in that guns have a much higher killing power than other weapons. Knives, swords, whatever... they are nothing compared to a gun. But how to rectify that while maintaining freedoms? I'm not sure. Personally, I would not want to live in a disarmed populace - even if it means decreased danger.
Probably not. But if it makes you feel better, that's something at least.
I agree, 20 or 30 George Zimmermans would have likely just caused more confusion and more deaths. Now, if CCW permit holders were actually TRAINED and EDUCATED in how to react to high stress situations cautiously and with maximum situational awareness, they might actually be useful.
I pray for all who have been effected by this tragedy.
The problem is the gun laws. Look at cities where concealed carrying is illegal, they have the highest death rates due to guns. Criminals are the only ones carrying in these cities because they know the law abiding citizen is not. How are you going to protect yourself? You can't and they know it.
This tragedy shows if there would have been someone there that was carrying a concealed weapon (gun) they could have stopped the shooter and prevented as many being killed and wounded. Again, there still would have been some killed and wounded but not as many.
The stricter the laws become about carrying concealed weapons/guns the more the criminal's have the advantage and will kill more than ever before because there will be no one there to stop them. If your counting on the police (which I believe they do a great job and we have a great need for them), but by the time they arrive most if not all of the deaths have already occurred. This happened in seconds and the cops took minutes to get there, which is out of there control due to not being able to be everywhere waiting for something to happen. Metal detecors will not stop a criminal, if this person wants to harm someone they will find a way to get around it or just shoot the person that's in there way.
I am a 40cal. carrying mother, I never leave home without it. If I can't carry into a business due to the signs they have posted, I go shop somewhere else. I refuse to have the right taken away to protect my child when some mentally unstable person comes shooting. How about you, what would you do if someone having a concealed gun shot and killed a perpetrator where your child was shopping or just playing at the park?
Old papi..
all good points...problem is normal people get guns and there is not guarantee they would not snap..same goes for police officers and military.. we all all human at least before the snap episode just like this guy was at some point...so your point is well taken but it means @!$%#e here and ads nothing to the formula, let alone solves any problems; if you do not like guns or have not stomach for stuff like this i understand because i fell sick too but because we get rid of the guns we will not get rid of the real problem..think about that
Guns don't kill people, republicans do. Another victory for the NRA
Anyone can kill another person with anything they choose. If I chose to kill someone with a brick - would there be restrictions placed on who could purchase them and where they could purchase them? Some people are just broken. It is just unfortunate that they cannot be "repaired" before some of them snap. I don't care if you were abused by your parents, play too many violent video games, claim to be "brainwashed", or think that "God" told them to do it. This young man made a choice. He chose to kill and injure many innocent people.
I'm so very sorry this happened to the people of Aurora, CO. This could have happened anywhere, I just hope that we can find discover a way to stop this type of senseless killing. I'm glad the gunman isn't dead. We can learn something from him and perhaps stop future such murder sprees. He will face the court and be sentenced. I pray for your wounded and grieving.
Maybe just maybe if some one in the theater had a hand gun they could have stopped this.
Yet Obama calls the Fort Hood massacre by an extreme islamist who went on a jihadist shooting rampage WORKPLACE VIOLENCE and yet another delay in his trial and our military families have no justice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSOtqV-WzqM
Good Morning Mike!
Maybe, maybe not.
A lot of permit holders like to think they would James Bond the hell out of an active shooter.... but that's simply not the case in reality. I think CCW permits should only be issued to people trained, or who have been trained, in proper use, caution, and threat identification.
If that theatre had 20 of your average CCW permit holders in there (well, as far as GA goes), half would probably forget to turn off their safety and the other half would either freeze up, miss every shot, or shoot the wrong person by mistake. Maybe a couple competent ones would be able to properly engage, and those would be your cops and military people.
I'm pro-gun - but this tired argument I must say (and I apologize) is just silly, and it makes pro-gun people look silly when they make it.
A brick, a knife, a bat... whatever.. is nothing compared to the killing power and efficiency of a gun. A gun, especially hand-guns and many rifles, are designed specifically to kill people. There is no way around that, that's. That argument you are making is nothing short of a false-equivalency... making it does nothing to strengthen a position on gun-rights.
Someone forget THEIR weapon and CWP. That could have equalized the situation just like in Florida last Friday night.
I agree with Dick-1955 with any luck some of the dead are card-carrying NRA members.....or some of their relatives.....wonder what the NRA will say about this tragedy? oh yeah..."guns don't kill people, people kill people WITH GUNS!" How does a psycho like this get access...oh yeah the NRA lobbyists.....nothing like a 3 day waiting period to have the time to plan a massacre......
Were these Second Amendment remedies" that the Reichwing advocates?
Heck of a job NRA and Party of No.
Criminals don't follow laws by definition. The gun murders in this country have been decreasing per capita for years despite rises in the ownerships and permits to carry per capita. The violent crime rates per capita have been steadily falling for years. So you're right when you said this...because the gun laws are too restrictive.
I make a living with game theory mathematics...it's clear to anyone versed in it that any increased level of weapon technology and its increased prevelance in a society makes the society safer, precisely because of the deterent factor injected into decision making which carry higher and higher penalties (like maiming and death) when the deterent is not followed.
Mankind killed more peoiple per capita before the invention of swords and spears. They killed less than that when guns were invented. The lower the level of technology, and the less prevelant it is in society, the more per capita deaths and violence.
Why do you think no Hot War, only Cold War and minor incursions, have occured between two nuclear countries? It's the deterent factor...mutually assured destruction.
The nut in the theatre was not going to follow any gun law. He was willing to die (although he clearly was trying to delay it with his helmet and vest). No one who does these things responds to statutes, regulations, or fear of death...or they wouldn't do it. Game theory mathematics make this an undeniable argument...but good luck getting people to recognize how much lower the violent crime rate is even as the gun ownership rates have increased (along with permits to carry).
Storybec: And how do you know half the audience didn't have guns?
Yes...we need MORE people running around, armed to the teeth. They could have shot it out in a dark movie theater. Riiight.
Political agenda? I think my right as an American to go to a goddamn movie theater without being f---ing shot is a worthy political agenda. All American families are involved...you'd better start praying harder.
Ishmael-you sound like a real proud American-I doubt it with a name like that! Muslim! . Thanks to all the whites 150 years ago they are just about gone- all the full-blooded ones----
crazy, I was just through there 2 weeks ago. Stayed in Denver. My heart goes out to all the families. This guy is a total nut job!! Very sad story:(
Ooh that makes sense. So if everyone has a gun the ratio for violent rage shootings go down. No, just means that 14 people die with guns in their holdster.
Well, I wouldn't say equalized... the shooter had a vest, helmet, a high capacity rifle, and tear gas w/ mask in a dark theatre.
It may have helped, maybe... in the hands of a very highly trained individual with experience. But a lot of CCW holders have little to no experience shooting at anything but stationary targets on nice summer afternoons.
I really get tired of people tossing out political rants about every incident that occurs in america .
I also get tired of the ignorant comments about "guns" killing people and anti NRA rethoric.
It's also pretty lame that so many toss their views around like they are so informed and rightous in their beliefs ,,,,,,,,,,
Reading these ignorant comments on these blogs is very amusing. ,,,,
Mike in Delray:
Trying to use the same excuse they had for Columbine? It's still DOOM teaching these people how to go out, proper use a gun and unleash it on a crowd right? Wrong. This was an obviously already disturbed individual that had some weapons and decided to end people's lives for no apparent reason.
You can't blame video games, music, television, hollywood, etc. That's been tried for years and is just a tired argument at this point. There are studies done that want to find certain evidence so they focus on tests that make them look right.
The fact of the matter is we don't know why this shooter did what he did at this point, but he is alive so maybe we'll see just how nuts he is. Instead of sitting here trying to scapegoat on gaming and other entertainment or injecting politics, we should just keep those dead and wounded in our hearts and hope justice is served for them.
It's as if the anti-gun people aren't aware of the stats I keep re-asserting in my posts...or they are willfully ignoring them.
Crime rates are down. Violent crime rates are down. Gun violence is down. Gun ownership is up, as are gun permits. How do you guys explain that? If per capita gun murders are down per capita while gun ownsership and permits are way up per capita, doesn't that make you stop and ponder the whole 'I'm looking to blame guns (an inanimate object)', thing just al ittle bit? Doesn't that clue you in that more guns does not equate to more gun deaths, and that we're actually safer now as a society than we've been for like 30 years?
Stop looking at news anecdotes, and look at the totality of the evidence....otherwise all your opinions are based on emotion and inuition, not reason and deductive logic.
Please note that the gunman had body armour and tear gas. Anyone who thinks that another armed person would have solved the problem are kidding themselves. This man prepared for those eventualities. Those of us who have worked in the legal system know that people overestimate their power and authority when they are armed. Sorry, but it usually leads to more mistakes. The best protection we as a society can have is prevention. This guy, without a doubt, had talked to people about his desire to kill others.
the big picture
And how many women have slaughtered their own children? A hell of a lot within the last few years. Would you like to discuss that?
.40cal
bull@!$%#
there has been no reduction in crime in places with concealed carry laws
If someone had been carrying themselves, they probably could have gotten shots off to stop this guy. As for the body armor, anyone with good aim could have simply shot him in the head or legs.
I wish they would have killed this f'ing terrorist in the parking lot.
and I dont care what color he is, religion, orientation, whatever, HE IS A TERRORIST.
and if that muddies the waters for white people wanting to think only muslims are terrorist, well to f'ing bad. TERRORISM IS TERRORISM - I dont care what reason you decide to carry out acts like this, it's terrorism PERIOD.
time we start treating anyone who does anything like this as the terrorists that they are - SHOOT THEM DEAD ON THE SPOT.
I don't want to be mean... but no. I mean seriously.... no. I'm pretty sure even a SEAL would have had a very very hard time vs a heavily armed shooter with body armor and tear gas in a dark theatre, in fact he may not even be able to cut it. It sounds like you've been playing a lot of videogames.
noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
No, a nutter that goes on a rampage for no apparent reason isn't a terrorist. Terrorism is the systemic use of violence and intimidation to manipulate or coerce, especially for political aims.
Someone on this thread mentioned parenting. I agree: We, as a society have made children castoff's. They are "not life" @ conception, They are "gender neutral" as they grow and only relevent when they can "produce" or "vote" when they grow up.
Someone on this thread mentioned prayer. Count me in. But God and any such thing is viewed as extremist, imaginary, no place in a "modern" society. I'll pray... and the Bible asks these words: When Jesus returns... Will there be faith on the earth?
Someone on this tread mentioned politics. Count me out. I love political debate. (Romney2012) But neither party has anything to do with this travesty AND tragedy. I learned this one thing:
"You can't put sense to non-sense." Racism ins non-sense, violence (except for self defense or defense of others) is non-sense, Left or Right is non-sense in this case because people have lost thier lives simply because a "Crazy" man had a "angst". I pray for the families... someone invited me to see the film.... not to night. Today I'll stay home with family.
After reading some of these comments, I really worry about America.
One wack job goes nuts and I have read political nut jobs spewing their hate. Just sick people.
According to the demographics I found, Aurora is 88.1% White, 5.6% Black, 8.8% Hispanic with a smattering of other groups. Median household income is $61,570. Sorry buddy, you can't blame this one on melanin.
I also don't accept the association between this guy being a gamer or the movies he watched. He is simply another mentally unstable guy who was allowed to aquire military style weaponry.
This cuts it. I am okay with the 2nd ammendment but I am now officially against military style weopons being owned by the private citizens. That means automatic and semi-automatic firearms any military type explosive devices, etc. I am still on the fence regarding the bullet-proof body armor the guy was wearing.
Wow, some of you are seriously living in a different world!!! Seriously! Take away guns? Yup that is usually where some of you weak minded indivudals go. OR what about the statement "if someone did have a CCW or CWP they probably would have caused more havoc or been too chicken to do anything about it". THat must come from someone that has serious issues. I bet you make it a point to stir up controversy and then step back to watch people tear each other apart. I bet I bet I bet.
I hold a CCW, I am trained, I am prepared, I do protect my family and in a situation....I WOULD ensure my family is safe before I start "shooting at the bad person"!!! There is nothing worse than someone that is carrying that just open fires without thinking about the people around the bad people or behind them. Every bullet is ownership and I know that I OWN EVERY bullet that comes out of my gun, every time, no exception. I am trained.
Whats funny are those that are crying out the worse about gun control because they would be DEMANDING that someone with a CCW protect them in this situation. They would b pushing the innocent children out of the way and trampling on the elderly to get to a safer place. I am quite sure of this. I have seen it and have attempted to retrain that out of some of my students and yet they still exist. Alas, cannot reach everyone. So for you out there that think that disarming society is the answer, KARMA will be ironic, that I can guarantee. Such a pity that ignorance runs this rampant. Stop drinking the kool aid!
"....the right of the people to be massacred shall not be infringed."
My deepest sympathies and regrets to all involved you are in my thoughts and I wish you the best.
Nothing that anyone does surprises me anymore (hasn't for quite awhile) but this is totally insane. This is much worse than the shooting here in Chardon so I can't even say that I understand what the people are going through. In a movie theatre? All these little kids and helpless people? WTF? This seems so surreal just like when I saw the Twin Towers falling on TV.
I know that I'll probably get flamed or collapsed but some crimes are too severe for life in prison or the death penalty. If he is found guilty set him free. Give the public a weeks notice and on the release date let it be known that for the next 72 hours any weapon assaults will face double penalties. That way hopefully no one shoots the monster. Let the public have him and ask the Police to look away.
Did we learn nothing from the Columbine shootings? We continue to be held hostage by the NRA who think everyone should be entitled to do this sort of thing without any consequences. Ban all guns everywhere!!!!!!!!
12 more reasons why states should NOT abolish the death penalty.
Monkeynucleosis...(#1.74)..."You can't blame video games, music, television, hollywood, etc. That's been tried for years and is just a tired argument at this point. There are studies done that want to find certain evidence so they focus on tests that make them look right."
If that were the case, there would be no justification for the Ratings System for Movies, Video Games and Music releases.....Numbing children to the point where they tell other children their life is worthless and they should go home and hang themselves....and they do....Texting, Sexting,Twitter, Facebook...The skill of communicating has been reduced to 130 characters or less....most of it in a language many, like me can't even figure out....I can just see the next generation in Congress....
A Bill--- #@ yo IAPE mofo GTFO ho #---
Hey Fed !
Just noticed all the low lifes comments started from the liberals about Limbaugh.
Just an observation about the understanding faction....
I think 40cal.mother said it all...
I would have shot that kid myself long before the death toll had reached that high...
Prayers go out to the victims and the family & friends of those victims that suffered this great tragedy...
Every time there's an incident like this (and there will be others) you get the same political comments by both sides. I for one don't have a problem with people having firearms. The vast majority are law abiding citizens. My question to those who are pro-firearms is this....Is it too much to ask to have tighter gun laws so that we can at least weed out the crazy ones? Would an extra week be too much to ask? Granted I don't think you can can every crazy person but hell if you caught just one it would be worth it. Wouldn't it?
Mike- You know, you might be on to something there. While were at it, I have seen a lot of violence in books to. I think maybe a good old-fashoned book banning might be in order. What books might be good cnadidates for banning based upon the violence they contain? Maybe the Taliban might have some good ideas...
I certainly didn't suggest we take away a person's right to bear arms. I said no military type weapons. If you have a problem with that, I would advise you to take it up with the people who causing the problems not the people who want to solve the problems.
Give me and one or two others 30-minutes with this low life loser scumbag (no weapons necessary) and he'll wish he was did in with a gun. Seriously? You open fire in a theater with kids and young people? You have no right to breathe the same air as the rest of us. I hopt they file terrorism charges against this guy and fry him (although that would be too easy for him)...
Ok. A couple things here. One, I don't think in this case, even if there was a concealed carry person in there it would gave been hard for them to do very much. There was tear gas and people panicing and the a-hole had body armor. You would either have to be an ace shot, or get close enough to hit a smaller part of his body (i.e head, arms, legs) and you would have to do this without getting shot yourself and in the midsts of a couple hundred people in panic mode. Two, anyone who says this is why we need guns off the street is living in a fantasy land where criminals can't figure out a way to get a gun, if you want a gun and have the money , one will always be able to buy a gun if you know where to look. Three, so what if he was a republican or a democrat, the guy is a sick a-hole, both sides have these kinds of people.
The fact is some nut just killed, at present, 14 people and wounded at least 50 others. Forget the politics and reach out to the people who's lives will never be the same after last night.
...I figure that anyone who didn't know the shooter, or his 'thoughts'; are only able to speculate this humans' behavior...absolutely unbelievable for me to figure why anyone would possess such anger towards anyone and everyone.... my only broad analysis of the deranged man....
I agree with you Storybec but sad to say, conceal carry won't help in a theatre. Most (if not all ) ban firearms, even if concealed, so this nutjob KNEW there would be no one able to retaliate. KNEW there would be a lot of young people (even kids since it is summer)
People don't go on these kinds of rampages this well prepared without knowing their target audience (no pun intended)
If you're going to quote me - please use my actual words and not some made-up hyperbole.
I assume, since you are DV, that you have combat experience - yes? Do you really think, that in a dark and crowded theatre vs a shooter with body armor, rifle, and tear gas... that an average person (or above-average for that matter) with a CWP would have proven effective - much less successful, in taking down the tango?
I'm by no means anti-gun, or anti-cwp... I just feel that it's necessary to point out the overconfidence that some people seem to have in regard to how effective it would have been. Having unrealistic expectations does nothing to serve a pro-gun position.
Mike in Delray:
The ratings system is in place simply so parents are aware of the style of content in said movie/music/game. Trust me when i say most parents ignore them. Also, you act as if violence and bullying is new, it's not. The only point you can make involving twitter/facebook is that the bullying is now more widespread; doesn't change the fact that it's always been there.
I've been playing video games for almost all my life and it hasn't desensatized me to anything. I am able to realize the difference between reality and a fictional world. Once again, if a child can't that's on the parents, not the medium of entertainment.
Just remember it's not just guns that kill people, I remember 11 years ago a group with "box cutters" killed over 3000 Americans and started a global war that killed thousands more, they didn’t play violent TV games as children, they didn’t have abusive parents, yet they started something that will live forever.
I just wonder if a couple of those passengers on the four planes actually had handguns, if the whole tragedy would have worked out differently. Although I don’t have any firearms of my own, it riles me when emotions call into question the second amendment and gun control. The "gunman" could have easily killed everyone in the theater with a 5 gallon gas can or a bomb made of fertilizer. Think Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, not a shot fired but 168 people dead.
Some people are just not mentally stable or don’t care about a precious life, if they don’t have access to guns, they would just find something else.
Sad for the victims and families, AGAIN, and AGAIN, and......................................................................
@Disabled Vet (and other ignorant posters who think guns are just fine): Don't you get it?! We are effing sick of our kids dying by gunshot. You may think you are a "responsible gun owner", but who is to say you get a few beers in you and go off on a rampage like this? Thirty THOUSAND people are killed by gunshots in the U.S. every year, and the NRA continues its mantra that this acceptable behavior. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.
NRA member: "If everyone in that theater had a gun on them then this would have turned out differently"
huh huh huh hhhhuuhuhuh huh huh uh hhhhhhuuuhuhuhh (laughter courtesy of Beavis & Butthead)
The channel 8 news said that he had visited with anwar sadacki at one time this anwar as a terrorist.
This was a 24 yr old that did this, He could not have had anything other than too much pampering in his life. Too much video games with violence, too many violent movies and his parents couldn't have punished his bad behavior except with "reasoning". I've said it before and I'll say it again, kids need to be spanked when they are misbehaving, teachers need to be able to spank them, and If they still shows signs of aggression then put them into the military.
This Boy should be put to death.. immediately .. no waiting, no BS, this is enough! When will the justice system get it? They are as bad as the coddling parents out there that created this POS. Its time to instill fear in the hearts of those that think its "cool" to hurt others. Its time for corporal punishment that doesn't stretch out forever.
To be clear, not all the "anti-gun laws" in the world would have stopped this tragedy...or V-Tech....or Columbine. Like the bumper sticker said, "If guns are outlawed, then only "outlaws" will have guns!"
My heart goes out to the victims, most of all. I hope the political addicts on this forum will act humanely, at least for a day, and keep that in mind. Lives were lost. Can't hang it on Obama OR Romney....
For all stating that this is not a political issue, that is correct. It is a societal issue that will soon make its way into politics which is the wrong answer as well. You cannot legislate sanity and acceptable behavior. You cannot compel people to be happy. WE have allowed this to take place.
This isn't a good situation for anyone. This nut chose to use a firearm in his own style of attack but if he wanted to really cause damage without hurting himself he could have just made a bomb.
This is truly a nutcase wanting to die in his own blaze of glory but it didn't work.
There are insane people all over, we cannot stop them all, knee-jerk reactions won't solve anything.
EXcept America...where the concealed carry rate per capita and gun ownership rate per capita has risen while simultaneously the gun murder rate per capita has dropped.
Despite your emotion and intuition, guns do not equate to gun murder.
And off the top of my head, Michigan's crime rate fell 10.5% after CCW passed, according the FBI. Ohio's also fell. Just search 'crime rates after concealed carry'...then do the same search with each State's name. Each State has their own stats, along w/ the FBI. You can also look at county by county breakdowns.
Always been a lot of crazies in this country. Seems the opportunities to express it are much easier now. Don't know who did this, or why yet. Crazy to make accusations and assessments with such little information.
So, what your telling me is, in the US of all the people killed by guns and box cutters in the last 12 years, 2% have been box cutters.
This may be the ugly results of bullying or just a symptom of a warmongering, gun-happy society. This may also be the result of Rush Limbaugh and reich-wing lunacy. Or... or... or, maybe we can stop ignorantly fabricating culpability based on our own personal politics and hold the individual who made the choice to end the lives of innocent people personally accountable. Ignorant fools acting like they know something; how does feel to be that stupid? What this proves is that we as a society need... no, STFU, it means that this sorry POS deserves the maximum possible punishment under the law.
@ xrayspex
WTF is wrong with some of the people in Colorado, one of my absolute favorite states to visit, but one with more than a few troubled souls.
Are you really going to start blasting individual states for the insanity of a wretched few??!! A few black weevils in the whole "storeroom of flour" doesn't mean that "it (or we) are all bad"...
Obviously the families of the dead and wounded need compassion but what the f'ck is wrong with people who take 3 month old babies and CHILDREN to see these rather adult movies at midnight..???????
They need their kids taken away and given to responsible parents. Oh, wait...they're dead because they were out at a movie in the middle of the night instead of home in bed.
For all the brave gun-toters out there who keep collapsing my posts and suppressing free speech, just because you can't deal with a rational opinion:
Storybec: And how do you know half the audience didn't have guns?
Yes...we need MORE people running around, armed to the teeth. They could have shot it out in a dark movie theater. Riiight.
Political agenda? I think my right as an American to go to a goddamn movie theater without being f---ing shot is a worthy political agenda. All American families are involved...you'd better start praying harder.
Mozzie -
(Another ignorant anti-gun advocate) You'll never beat the 2nd amendment so GTFO if you don't like it. If your kid was killed, I'm sorry , but it wasn't the gun that did it. A gun is a tool used for protection and hunting. Unfortunately, some use it for evil. It would be absolute idiocy to try to remove those rights from law-abiding citizens because you will not get them away from the criminals. You're not going to win this one so get over it.
There is no reason why the average citizen should have access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons. All they are good for is killing large groups of people. As far as the body armour, it's not hard to get. My husband collects knives and in most of the catalogs he receives there is body armour available for sale. I just want to know why. Why murder all those people for no reason at all. I'm just worried that he'll be classified insane, like an act like that could be done by a sane person, sent to a hospital where after a few years he convinces them he's cured, goes out and does it again.
Good morning sexist, feminazi. You're so right, women never kill people, never talk school kids into killing their husbands, never steal, kill newborns in the hospital while working as nurses, never drop children off in a dumpster or put them in ovens, never break laws in general. Yep, men are the problem. If only the world was peopled with women then everything would be better. Maybe he had a sexist, feminazi mother or girlfriend just like you who drove him crazy...
I'm sure that if a man had made a similar comment you would have climbed up on your perch and gone into squawking pterodactyl mode.
What's all the excitement? The NRA will pitch a tent there shortly, dispense koolaid, and bandaids, and then tell us all that having 50+ people shot with an assault weapon and paying $10 a head or more for the privilege is all part of keeping America free. Those kids in the theatre are really at fault. They should have asked their mommy and daddy for an SKS before entering such a dangerous movie. We'll get it all sorted out, and like Tuscon, no one will remember this in 2 weeks.
In the wake of this tragedy, it does my heart good to see all of the political junkies (on both sides) getting their comments collapsed. 'Right" really does prevail in the end!
For those pissed that political comments have entered the dialog within minutes of its posting, I'm sorry but it's highly likely that politics motivated this (you supply the adjective). The movie became a political football as soon as it was noticed that the villain's name bore a similarity to a presidential controversy. It also became political because a whole segment of the American people think that it is not only our right but also our duty to be armed to the teeth with weapons designed for a military assault. Now a whole bunch of people are dead and a community is in shock.
To the National Rifle Association: This mess is largely of your making, please do something constructive to clean it up!!!
kaybeetoys -
It's also your right to drive to work every day without getting killed in an accident; it doesn't mean you won't be and it doesn't mean we should get rid of cars. That's idiot logic that five year old can rebut.
torture him. its time to buck up and start fighting back. this guy will surely get the death penalty but being put to sleep peacefully doesn't do any justice
Another white person gone wacko.
Wait - are you saying that the stupidly ridiculous notion put out there by none other than Rush - that a classic Batman villain named Bane (in a movie that's been planned since before the campaign) is meant as a allegory for Bain ... that someone actually took Rush seriously?
You know, normally I would laugh at such a proposition - but in this day and age... I wouldn't be surprised, honestly. I mean, we have radio blowhards seriously insinuating the most ridiculous crap - and a nation just chocked full of dittoheads...
True. But honestly --- give it 24 hours (or less) and Fux News and the GOP will be trying to make hay out of this. It's this kind of sensationalism that gets their base riled up, and it's the only way that Romney the Mormon Cultist and his Magic Underwear will have a chance to win...
Hal-2824511 ...(#1.94).."Mike- You know, you might be on to something there. While were at it, I have seen a lot of violence in books to "
Seriously ??
A.) When is the last time you saw a teen reading a book ?? The only images you get are the ones you make.
B.) Movie and Video Game makers spare no expense to make their products as life-like and gory and bloody as possible...seeing it over and over does have a numbing effect coupled with a rush of adrenalin.
There are Child Soldiers in Africa, who have no problem going into a neighboring village and gunning down women and children....It's what they know, what they have been taught...
There are children in schools in the Middle East being taught Jihad is the way of life...
Monkeynucleosis...(#1.100)..."I've been playing video games for almost all my life and it hasn't desensatized me to anything. I am able to realize the difference between reality and a fictional world. Once again, if a child can't that's on the parents, not the medium of entertainment."
That's you....There are some that can't make that distinction and by the time a parent finds that out, it's too late....They'll be on TV saying ..."I'm sorry....He's a good kid...he didn't learn this at home"
I havent heard/seen anything confirming this guy's race/ethnicity yet.
@HAL-2824511. Your'e just twisting my comment around, go back and read it carefully.
People keep asking me if this should is going to keep me from going to midnight movies. 9/11 didn't keep me off planes so why would this keep me out of the theater. Fear profits a man nothing.
"The All-Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer. Your fate is fixed. Fear profits a man nothing."
OK first of all for Pete's sake this should not be made political it is not about politics it is about a lunatic. Many mothers and fathers have had a child shot or worse yet killed that is what this is about. It is also not about gun control it is not that hard to get a gun illegally look in your local paper or on-line ads you can buy guns without a permit. Where did this man get a smoke bomb? An innocent little baby was shot, young children were shot it does not matter what the age none of these people should have been shot just for going to a movie. God bless the victims, their families and friends and while I am not a big death penalty proponent this is one case that it is needed. Pray for the people that were in the theater, their families and friends this is one time we need to ALL PUT RACE, POLITICS AND RELIGION ASIDE. Come together to help these people heal. This is not about the political parties it is about people that right now need help.
Looks like a concealed handgun permit for me. My heart goes out to everyone effected by this heinous act. We need to protect ourselves people! I personally will not allow this to happen to the people I have the ability to protect. Guns are here to stay. Laws wont prevent the criminals from being criminals. Laws shouldn't prevent the able to protect everyone else from those criminals.
A normal citizen carrying concealed can only do so much about a man with a vest and a helmet who has just released tear gas and is the only one with a mask. Oh, and it is dark in there. I don't really know that it would be better/easier for a military person who was just there to watch the movie. You still can't see (from the gas and the dark) and you have less areas of impact on the target. I am all about the 2nd amendment, but not sure what could have realistically been done in this situation.
For all the talk about video games and violence in the media - someone explain to me why there were so many kids at this movie at midnight? Nothing good happens after midnight! And this movie is rated PG-13 "for intense sequences of violence", so why is a 6-year-old there? People say that kids today are different than they were x number of years ago, well, parents are different too. Parents are selfish these days - "I know my kid shouldn't be out late to go see this movie, but I want to see it, so I'm taking him with me". Same with video games! Parents need to start parenting and be mindful of what their children are exposed to. I am a firm believer that once a child hits a certain age, his parents are no longer responsible for his actions, but those parents can control what influences they allow.
There's ratings on game content. People who grew up with games are growing older, the first generation are well into their 30's and 40's by now. Videogames, like movies, books, and any other entertainment - vary widely in content and are HERE TO STAY. Parents simply need to monitor content and ensure their children are not being exposed to anything that they can't handle.
If you want to blame it on violent videogames, might as well blame movies, books, television, whatever. You're just getting yourself into a chicken-egg situation because life imitates art and art imitates life. Society is a reflection of what we produce, and what we produce is a reflection of society. Blaming one, but not the other, is silly.
I will tell you what the problem is, because I live here and have seen it first hand: Colorado is a wonderful place to live - great climate, sheer unadulterated beauty, clean air (well, it used to be), great schools, friendly people. There was a ten-year period here where we were getting 70,000 new residents per year because of the reasons stated, and it has not let up. These crimes are being committed by some of the newbies who decided "this is a great place to live, why don't I destroy that reputation and trash it?" We have never seen the crime rate that has occurred in the last 20 years. It has changed my beloved Colorado into a mecca for attracting nice people who want to make it their home, but truly despicable vermin such as the one who created the latest catastrophe. It makes me so sad.
Another senseless shooting and, of course, the usual screeching for more gun control. We had a family of four killed recently by a drunk driver but no one screamed to ban cars. Hummmm....maybe we SHOULD blame the perp and not the inanimate object.
Taking away guns is not going to do anything. People like this will still get guns. AK47 types are illegal in most states anyway and very hard to obtain in others.
There are too many crazies, too much medication prescribed to try to keep people under control. Just clean them out and get rid of them. The rights of the innocents should be greater than theirs. They should not have the right to run rampant and shoot whoever they want, and the rest of us should have the right to sit in a movie theater and watch a damn movie.
All of you anti-gun fanatics crack me up. Do you honestly think that if guns were illegal that would have stopped this guy? Huh? Well, do you? Get off your soapbox, it's tired and annoying.
People died, kids died. Some idiot decided to go into a theater and for (as of yet) no reason started killing people without prejudice. The best most of you can come up with is some tired old statement about the 2nd amendment, no guns, and political tripe. Go to hell, all of you.
Maybe you need to experience losing someone in a horrific way to change your mind. I hope that's not the case but that seems to be the only swift kick in the a#$ that will jump start your intellectual ability. Or you all just need a lobotomy and subsequently be thrown into a padded cell for the next 60 or so years.
People like you are no better than this madman. The rest of society hates you.
no surprise the anti-gun folks are up to the same old blame game. It's a shame there were no others exercising their 2nd amendment in the theater or there wouldn't have been so many lives lost. Probably a "Gun Free" zone like Columbine, Virginia Tech, or Omaha Mall! Did anyone try to do anything at all or were they curled up in a ball on the floor?
My sympathy for family and friends of those lost and injured
You gun nuts crack me up. Nobody EXCEPT THE NRA, FOX NEWS, AND RUSH LIMBAUGH has said anything about OBAMA coming to get your gun.
You anti video game / anti music / anti movie people crack me up saying that any of that is the cause of this.
This person was either a lunatic or a survivalist. So either he was motivated by voices in his head or something he heard on Rush Limbaugh's show.
I think he should get a fair trial and then promptly taken out and hanged.....they still do that in CO right?
first of all my heart goes out to everyone who was effected by this i will say a prayer for you. i didnt want to make a politcal statement but to all the anti gun people i have one question for you. im ex navy, i was on the pistol team i have my marksman sharpshooter and expert ribbons. i carry a concealed weapon at all times. unless it is a school or courthouse which are about the only restictions we have in my state. now my question is woul you want me sitting next to you and your family in such a situation?
What is truly amazing about these comments is that making political references to this situation are inappropriate but making religious comments are acceptable. So we have some diety that has control over everything that makes one of His children go out and kill a dozen other children and wound a couple dozen more. After this mass carnage it is acceptable for people praise this diety for his loving compassion.
But woe be unto you that have an unkind reference to a politician.
Wow a bunch of people die and some people pray for their souls and sure enough the angry athiests are out in force preaching 2 paragraphs of their own beliefs for every one line of other belief, while they tell everyone else you dont get free speech.. lol. They should rename their religion to fascathiest. We get it you believe in the magic life forming on the back of crystals in primordial ooze after the giant explosion in the vacuum of space happend which goes against science's own "laws" of combustion. As soon as a scientist can make an "explosion" in space (no need for it to create matter including trillions of planets, stars, lifeforms, every plant, animal and insect, mineral, etc... lol).. just a simple explosion in space. Fuel, oxygen & heat. lol I'll give all the brainiacs a clue, it is impossible for this to occur in the vacuum of space without it being done by an intelligent being who actually bring the oxygen, fuel and heat to the vacuum of space. Or just bring a bottle of space to Earth and turn it into a mineral or heat or oxygen or fuel.. lol. I thought scientists eventually had to prove their hypothesis or theories, it should be easy right?
@Mike In Delray,
"A.) When is the last time you saw a teen reading a book ?? The only images you get are the ones you make."
Ummmm......Last night. The oldest boy (16) was reading a book about Roberto Clemente.
How about AR's in public spaces, mounted on the wall next to the fire extinguishers and emergency defibrillators?
Just a thought...
A grown man killing children.. How come for minor infractions by minorities there are always racist no good cops to beat them with batons or shoot them in the BACK as they were drawing down on the cop??.. Or excessive force but in cases like this that NEVER happens and these kind of killers actually deserve mistreatment. He killed children but I'm sure he will be treated like a king by p. d. ; ]
Think about it...
Cheers
Look in the dictionary (not that you have one, or even know what that is) and see your picture next to "ignorant".
Not since 1934, replaced by lethal injection - more costly, but just as effective, however.
You equate a car to an assault rifle-- a person driving to work with taking an automatic weapon into a movie theater and killing more than a dozen people-- and you say my logic is idiotic?
Criticism is also protected speech. Free Speech doesn't mean Free From Criticism Speech.
Yet again another theocrat demonstrates that they don't have a clue about science or its theories.
Too, too terrible, yet again.
NO, the answer is not "torture" or the death penalty or to arm the rest of the movie goers. The answer is to de-emphasize the glorification of killing and the use of killing as reasonable solution. I understand people who don't want to address cause and solution in this thread, and maybe it is the wrong place, but events like these are the times we are forced to face up to our violent natures. And no, the relatives of the victims are not going to be coming here to read these comments.
There are societies with rates of violent crime at a fraction of ours, and they do it at a fraction of our law enforcement cost and incarceration cost. We can learn from them. Canada, Norway, Switzerland, Denmark, New Zealand, Austria, Japan, lots of places. We glorify killing too much, and when wackos go off and live their sick dream, we are too fast to say, "don't politicize it." It is a political, societal cause and effect. The evidence is overwhelming - there is something unique to America that promotes this kind of event, and far more important than self-comforting but otherwise useles prayer, is for us all to recognize that we need to de-emphasize the glory of violence.
You want to do something? That is the best thing you can do, now and for the rest of your life.
Mike in Delray.... your a ingorant biased idiot. I garrantee most of these shooters are the result of F$#% up lives since birth. Blaming gaming is very short sighted. Just like everyone else in this country you have to blame everything else instead of saying.. wow we really are messed up.. maybe I shouldnt have been a complete ass to this kid all my life? Maybe I should not have spread my hateful biased ideas and just actually tried to not be a D%^& for 5 minutes? And whats worse this jackass is getting exactly what he wants... He is getting all the attention and noteriety that comes with being a mentally incompitant moron who knows society will blame everything under the sun for his actions instead of the fact he should have been locked up years ago for being insane. Extremist idea's are anouther problem, and we all fall into that sewer which is why this crap will keep on happening until socitey pulls its head out of it's a..!
During WWII, the emperor of Japan once said, "We would never attack the American Mainland....there would be a gun behind every blade of grass because of their "right to bear arms"...."
Think about it.
A lot of people who think they are 'gun experts' apparently think it is a good idea to shoot someone in a crowded theater and that it would turn out okay.
Which shows you literally know nothing about guns.
Seriously, go take a basic 101 lesson in guns. The first question you should ask yourself is, "What is a gun?"
If you can't afford a gun, try talking to a police officer who has any degree of common sense and they'll explain to you why it is such a stupid idea that you are talking about.
This has nothing to do with 2nd amendment rights. It just has to do with being not stupid.
most gun experts can a engage a target with out putting others at risk. its called training just in case you havent heard of it!
CNN just reported that the shooter, James Holmes, is an active Obama Campaign worker.
@thebigpicture this link-Sorry it's just not as sensationalized, but there are plenty of women mass murder freak out incidents as well.
@any who state a well trained CCW permit owner would have made it better, the perp had flak gear including a gas mask and helmet, There would have been many more deaths had there been more weapons in this case. (Something tells me access to the equipment might have possibly come from one of the many military bases in the area, and pawn shops) I would guess that we will learn more about it in the coming daylight hours.
I am a bit concerned why Aurora Police do not have access to gas mask's in their police vehicles, along with riot gear as it should be standard trunk equipment. That is another blog altogether. The Perp Surrendered to police gets me. 3 square meals , room and board for life, another taxpayer burden.
Prayers and condolences go out to the families involved.
1. I don't think you created a straw man on purpose, but it is nonetheless an argument they're not making. They are simply asserting it would of turned out BETTER, not "okay".
2. I don't think the value of guns in society is their ability to stop crime...but in the game theory mathematics of deterent factors in decision making. This is easily evident in the ncrease in per capita permits and ownership, but simultaneously decreasing per capita gun crime rates (especially murder).
3. Police as a source would be a bad choice. Police unions, more than almost any other group, lobby for restrictions on gun rights so they can be the only armed people in society. They lobbied against our concealed carry permits here, and even aftyer a huge reduction in crime and violent crime in particular, which they said would increase, they are still trying to get restrictions. They may be trained, but they have an inherent conflict of interest when it comes to carry permits. They are more interested in their own job safety than the populaces safety...which is silly, considering more guns has not equated to more gun crimes, including against cops.
4. As I mentioned, gun crimes, violent crimes, and crime rates in general are down nationwide, and in particular in permit States. As per capita permits and ownership rose, all the crime rates fell. I've mentioned this about 5 times now, but no anti-gun person will offer any retort. I'm guessing they have none...because it runs counter to the intuitive idea of banning or restricting guns in society to limit gun crime. It's counter intutitive but deductively logical to look at the stats and see more guns do not equate to more murders by guns, more gun crimes, more violent crimes, or more crimes in general.
5. I don't think one permit holder or a total gun ban would of stopped this guy. But an audience halff full of permit holders may have caused less death total...as the killer may have killed a lot less people before being shot from all angles and incapacitated, despite his body armor, by permit holders. They likely would have shot innocent people by accident, but less than the shooter did. I mean 50 people is a lot, and the product of a sustained attack. As far as the tear gas...well that complicates stuff. But even a brave unarmed audience could have slowed or stopped him. If 20 people jump the guy, 10 might die trying, but the other ten could get his mask, his guns, and probably held him down until authorities came. In the end, it's all speculation...and I still say guns according to game theory act as a deterent more than as a way to stop crime when it occurs.
Who were the idiots that brought a 4 month old baby to a Batman movie..?!?!
They should be shot.
Sometimes when I hear a baby in a theatre of an adult movie I want to go crazy to, just sayin..
Good morning. Lots of comments restored, none of the cheap political derails, and none of these smears/personal attacks:
thebigpicture, Seewhat I mean188, don't smear everyone in a gender/religion. You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
HOTTICKET-2304234, you're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Dick-1955, Samat, keep the death-wishing based on ideology to yourselves. That's a really bad contribution in the wake of mass murder. You're suspended for a day for violating #5 of the Code of Honor.
But maybe you're right about that too. We can ask the Taliban what sorts of movies and video games they recommend we ban.
That is true and a bad thing. We are teaching our children to hate too. Hopefully though not to be terrorists.
Laspos:
Yes, I will admit to distorting what you said. I will not take the position that just because we remove guns people will simply turn to other methods of violence. I still say their is no rational reason for any private citizen to own assault weapons.
mr r even with flak gear or body armour properly place rounds center mass have a devestating effect severe bruising broken ribs etc. it may not kill someone but it would certainly turn their attention elsewhere enough time for how many people to exit?
The UN wants to take away our gun rights real soon. The average person will have no way to defend themselves from people like this or gang members who will inevitably still get ahold of guns. Hell, sometimes the government GIVES GUNS TO VIOLENT DRUG CARTELS.
Is this any coincidence when the UN is about to take away gun rights for the average joe?
Movies and video games and the media all glorify the villain, the bad guy, the worse of the worst the better. Then people wonder why some guy wants attention knowing he will be the same as the new hero/villains. It used to be the guy in the white hat triumphed over villains, and a clear distinction was made that bad guys always lose.
Teach your children well.
kaybee -
Come on, I know you're not that slow. I did not equate driving to work with shooting up a movie theater. I drew a correlation between seemingly innocuous circumstances (i.e. going to work and going to a movie). Paraphrased, you said that you have the right to go to a movie theater without getting shot. I agree with that and I also believe you have a right to drive to work without getting hit by a distracted driver; it doesn't mean you won't and like I said it doesn't mean we should outlaw vehicles. The analogy is solid; insinuating that it is not only reflects poorly on you.
Mozzie -
Uhn-uhh, your face is in the dictionary under... ooh wait no, how bout, I'm rubber you're glue whatever you say... Come on, I can't even talk to you. Ridiculous.
Some quick thoughts I had in reading many of the opinion-based comments regarding the futility of concealed carry and the 'necessity' of banning/restricting civilian ownership of firearms:
1) Since we've been so wildly successful at keeping narcotics off our streets, how would a ban on civilian firearm ownership in any way prevent unlawful criminal ownership? Anyone who's read survey's of incarcerated criminals is aware that over 98% do not procure their weapons through traditional legal means anyway...and there have been numerous surveys of their method of procurement. Ironically enough these same surveys typically indicate a preference for strict gun control which could lead back to the initial conclusion. Do a quick search of the comment made by famous convicted mafia strongman Sammy 'the Bull' Gravano for a more concise comment regarding all the efforts we make to enhance safety through gun control. A quick google search should result in his 'thought-provoking' words on the subject.
2) Semi automatic firearms are NOT the same as military firearms. The do not operate the same and in fact operate the exact same as 'sporting' semis like the Remington 7400 which has been a common hunting rifle for nearly half a century. What's more, those who have a long background in shooting (research and training as well) are well aware of the fact that semi automatic weapons are actually slower to target for aimed follow-up shots than an old fashioned bolt-action hunting rifle. The renowned firearms instructor Col. Jeff Cooper made this point on multiple occasions in his columns and books.
3) A 'bullet proof' vest as reported is neither invincible, nor necessarily even bullet-proof. We know nothing yet if it was merely a flack vest, which may stop lower velocity shotgun pellets but not higher velocity bullets. Likewise even a true 'bullet proof' vest is only bullet proof for the first couple shots taken as the active ceramic plate is gradually compromised, if I remember correctly. Once degraded, vest is just a very heavy vest and neither is it even close to covering all critical areas on the torso. Even before it is totally compromised the initial shots into the plate usually result in severe bruising and even broken bones. The very vulnerable uncovered triangle from each hip bone to crotch is completely unprotected typically. Also, we can probably safely assume that he didn't wait for the theater to fill completely with tear-gas before opening fire. If he had, the theater would have already been emptying before his first shot. A tear gas canister/grenade is not a method of instantaneous dispersal. As such, tear-gas wouldn't have been much of a deterrent for someone with a concealed carry permit from firing in return at the perpetrator.
4) Lastly, although there is much yelling and blustering right now to the contrary, there is ample evidence now, after decades of collecting and collating, that concealed carry is an effective deterrent to both individual crimes AND mass-shooting crimes. There are many documented instances where a CCP holder successfully prevented mass casualties or at the least apprehended the perpetrator before the police could arrive. The studies have been conducted on multiple occasions now and by multiple individuals looking at data from every available county in the US and every peer refereed has at a minimum shown that concealed carry laws are no risk and more often they've found a societal benefit from their institution.
As far as what we don't know is the demographic info regarding those in attendance at this particular showing but lets look at the story. We know it was a late-night showing of the film. What could be surmised by even that small amount of data regarding the audience in that theater? Working adults (precisely the sort of civilians likely to have a concealed carry permit) were almost certainly a small minority in this crowd simply due to the fact that they are working adults and the work-week was not over. Similarly, although there are likely very many adults interested in seeing the concluding film of this series, wouldn't it be fair to say that the majority of those excited enough to make sure they were present for 'opening night' were teens and perhaps college-age young adults? Just looking at the small amount of info available, I'd be prone to think that reality is it would have been highly unlikely that a single CCP holder was in attendance, which would unfortunately make it similar to every other high casualty mass-shooting. The criminal goes where he wants and commits his crime while those who could do something about it (and that includes the police) are simply no-where to be found or arrive after the damage has been done. Likely, he had a pretty good idea that he would be unchallenged.
Maybe you need to spend less time on theory and more time on examining practicalities. Increased prevalence of weapons technology in a society leaves everyone with PTSD. We already know this from Iraq and Afghanistan, where being surrounded by a heavily armed civilian population is considered the equivalent of living in a perpetual war zone. Do we want our cities to be like Baghdad?
And these are our best, trained soldiers that we are sending there, who know how to handle their own weapons and the enemy is easily identifiable. Do you want a heavily armed housewife wondering whether that black kid is a drug dealer? Or do you want that heavily armed black kid wondering whether that housewife is going to be thinking that he's a drug dealer? Do YOU want to be wondering whether you are going to be in a shootout when you go shopping next time?
End result: do you want to be in a society where EVERYONE suffers from PTSD? Because that is the end result of your suggestion.
Okay, let me address comments such as anti-trust proponent's (#1.49), and J R Browenstein's (#1.116): This was a PG-13 movie; at 13 years old it is considered appropriate for the audience. The "children" spoken of so much in the reports are from ages 12-15, we're not talking 6 and 7-year olds. While I think the 12-year olds are a stretch, I don't consider it wrong for the 13 and older audience to be there, who were either there in groups or WITH their parents. Being summertime, a midnight showing is considered a special treat. My parents were INCREDIBLY strict with my sister and I growing up, but they still let us go to the late movies during break on rare occasions, between the ages of 13-15, with a group of friends. It's not like they were letting their kids go to a party. As for the 3-month old, I can't help but wonder if those of you who think that baby shouldn't have been there have any children. That is the perfect age to be able to GO to the movies when you have kids and no babysitter. At 3 months old, babies are still sleeping all the time and there is no set sleeping schedule; midnight to the parents could be like the middle of the day! Wait much longer and you won't be able to go the movies with your kids in tow for a few years, unless you want to ruin the experience not only for yourselves, but for everyone else at the movie too. Please, let's be supportive of the victims and their families, they are not the ones at fault here.
As for everyone else who seems to think it would be easy to shoot this guy back... let me point out (as some others have) the fact that he was wearing a bullet-proof vest, a gas mask, and was heavily armed. My husband, a police sergeant, who would have been there with his concealed carry, would have been no match against this man. Good luck trying to shoot somebody wearing armor, rapidly firing everywhere, when you can hardly breathe or see from not only the gas but the lack of light in the room, all while the whole room is nothing but chaos and panic... Not to say he wouldn't have tried, but it probably wouldn't have gotten him very far; in fact, it may have gotten him killed too.
Really? Never heard of WWI and WWII, have you?
And the 10's of millions of killed in massacres since?
First of all let me say that I feel extreme sadness for all the victims and their family members. The people who witnessed this, the surviving victims, and their families will now be traumatized for life. I saw someone get shot at a bar, luckily they survived, but it's not something you ever want to witness.
Now, as far as those who are saying this has nothing to do with politics, I would reserve that judgment until all the facts come out. Now, obviously this young man was extremely disturbed/mentally ill. However many of these extreme political talking heads DO have an influence on how people think, and the mentally ill are more likely to take what they say too seriously. Rush Limbaugh has been on a tirade about how the movie was trying to make a political statement by naming the villain "Bane." Rush claimed that the villain Bane was representing the Occupy Movement, and that it was more than coincidental that the villain has the same name, though different spelling, as Mitt Romney's former corporation. Now these claims are ridiculous, as the villain Bane was created by Stan Lee long ago, long before Mitt's company probably existed. Not to mention that the movie was made before anyone knew that Mitt would become the Republican nominee. Now of course, I don't know if this is what influenced this already unstable man to kill & injure these moviegoers. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he was influenced by these accusations that the movie itself had a political agenda. I honestly believe that is what set this man off, and people like Rush Limbaugh need to learn that their hateful words DO have an effect on people who are mentally unstable. We all need to be careful about what we say & do...our words, written or spoken, do have power.
I still don't get why people want to ban guns because of this. If you do not have a gun and want to kill lots of people you can still make a bomb from:
If you don't want to make an explosive you can simply mix certain household chemicals together and make a chemical bomb and throw that in there as well.
What stopped the police/people from doing anything to this guy was the tear gas. Even if you were a gun toting NRA member with a .45 in the theater you probably aren't trained in precision shooting while dealing with the effects of tear gas.
I've been driving to work for a whole lotta years, JQ... I've never been hit by a distracted driver. I've never been shot by some driver with road rage either...which would have been a far better analogy than your twisted logic. This is about gun violence, not bad driving.
Apparently the U.S. public education system has given up on teaching deductive reasoning. I fear for this country.
Yes, we do.
I am sorry, but preventing more deaths is more important to us than worrying about whether you are annoyed or not.
Every time something like this happens we get told, "Oh, what a pity, if only everyone there had had a gun, this tragedy would never have happened."
Well, if everyone there had had a gun, at least one person would have got shot.
If no one there had had a gun, no one would have got shot.
All of these gun advocates are living in a fantasy world where they are bulletproof and only the bad people die from gunshots. Well, bullets do not have a sense of morality. They kill the good and the bad alike.
You may be sick and tired, but we are sick and tired of seeing tragedy after tragedy like this. I logged on to read about what Romney and Obama were saying about each other, not prepared for the shock of 12 more innocent lives needlessly lost.
Movie theaters are WAY too loud to take a baby into. Also, nobody wants to have a baby crying near them when they go to see a movie. Sorry but taking a little baby to see this was just stupid.
Melinda - You have not one single shred of evidence to substantiate your belief. That scares me.
If you think that Rush Limbaugh has an effect on people's mental well being how about horror movies? Heck, even a book about how bad people are at glorifying violence was turned into a movie with violence in it. How is that for irony.
Byron - I am no gun advocate, but couldn't he have just made a bomb out of fireworks and done the same damage? Would you have then called for fireworks to be banned?
We are under no illusion that banning guns will stop people from killing each other or wanting to kill each other.
The problem with guns is that they make it easy to kill someone. Make it harder to kill people and fewer people will die. Make it easier to kill people and more people will die.
Of all of the things you have named, only guns have a single purpose - to kill things. Everything else is useful for something else.
SadStateAmerica - I think this answers your question, too, although I didn't see it until after I had already posted; just adding a footnote through the edit. No, all I want is to make it as hard to kill people as possible. Whether by guns or anything else. Already the FBI investigates suspiciously large purchases of nitrates. Annoying as the TSA is, planes are far more difficult to use as bombs. It's only guns that seem to be sacred. And it's only guns that are designed specifically to kill.
f hill (1.163) finally stated what I have been looking for. I test fired into a ballistic helmet, put a rifle bullet through it. I test fired into a ballistic vest, put a 9mm bullet right through it. Won't happen all the time, but fact is, IF a CCW had been in that theater, and thought he had a chance of taking the guy out without harming others, all of which are considerations I have before drawing my own concealed pistol, there is a good chance that a hit on target anywhere would have redirected the shooter's attention. That being said, I don't know Colorado gun laws, and I do know that not all CCW holders are sufficiently trained. I am former military and federal law enforcement, and also a former range master, shooting coach, and anti-terror sniper, but I also know I am an extreme minority in this amount of training. There are a few who think they know me, and feel safe when I am in a store where they work, but they fail to understand that in my mind, my concern is protection of my family, and if shooting starts, my first concern is to get my family out safely, using my gun if I must, but just as the police do not have a legal obligation to protect you, neither do I, and I am unlikely to do so, especially if it is not tactically realistic, and being in a crowded theater, with panicked people, in the dark, then I am probably going to duck and cover, wait in position, and IF he comes close, may choose to engage. And that is WITH my prior training. My CCW is for my protection, not the public's. That job still goes to those paid for it.
@ Old Papi and Kaybeetoys (among others), It's shameful that you use this tragedy to spout your nonsense about gun control. Let's follow your premise that the elimination of guns would stop this madness. Did Timothy McVey use guns in Oklahoma City ? Should we outlaw fertilizer and deisel fuel ? Sick people are going to use anything they can to hurt others. You say he wouldn't have hurt as many if he had a stick (unless the stick was dynamite), or what if he had a gallon container of gasoline and a rag stopper to set off an explosive fire in a theater packed to capacity ? You are probably saying, how would he conceal such a device ? How did he conceal an AK-47 and a shotgun ? If someone wants to carry out an attack, guns aren't the only means. Wise up and STFU when your responses SHOULD be sympathetic to the families.
Scotlee09: Very well said!
In all my life, I am still waiting to see a gun jump up and shoot anyone, ALL BY ITSELF...
Well as others have said this is the third one in a week I believe. So what is the damn problem with these folks? Yes, folks want to talk about what is going on in Chicago as if that is the worst thing (and it is bad, don't get me wrong), but to me this is worst. I am waiting for the media to say oh he had an addiction to video games, no social life, etc. Please. He knew what he was doing. At least his momma had sense to say yes you got the right one. Now people are going to be afraid to see a midnight movie and that is a shame. I haven't seen one in a long time ( I think Return of the King was the last one I saw) because there hasn't been anything I really needed to see, plus the cost is out of control for me. Not blaming the cops in this, but I often wondered if most theaters would have cops there for the midnight showings just for safety reasons as in the case that its late and to keep an eye out for trouble. We have cops at our theaters at night, a couple of patrol cars do details at our theaters.
I also hope that the movie producers/director are not blamed for this which I am sure that some stupid news reporter will do, and I am also waiting for the anti violence in movie group will start as well.
Byron's just another emotional, reactionary, irrational coward. Ignore him; reason and statistics don't work with his kind.
Now let's get on with blaming Marilyn Manson, video games, and Dungeons and Dragons!
See what I did there?
Byron - How is a bomb not easier to use to kill people than a gun? You light the fuse and walk away and people die. Making the bomb is less expensive and easier top obtain than a gun. So again your argument fails. Shooting a gun requires the shooter to put themselves at risk. This fellow had to obtain, bullets, guns, helmet, tear gas, and bullet proof vest to do what he did. However a molotov cocktail only requires gasoline available at any gas station, somthing to put it in, a piece of rag, and a lighter. All he had to do was light it, throw it in and run away. Tell me how guns are easier? Again, I am not a gun rights advocate, but your logic doesn't seem logical to me.
Spiddas - live in fear, for these inanimate objects are thinking but one thought:
SOON.
SadState: and let's not forget that the killer (not alleged killer!) could have walked into any home improvement store and purchased any number of things that, when combined properly, could have killed every person in the theater - without using a gun.
Byron would have us ban hardware stores. If he doesn't, he's a hypocrite.
People don't kill people - inanimate objects do!
oops didn't mean to double post
PeteMT: Good ones!
wje:
You can blame the media for the Bane/Bain connection and trying to make it political. The character Bane has been around in the Batman comics, cartoons and movies since 1993. It has nothing to do with Bain Capital, and shame on the media for trying to make it that way. And if someone took that seriously, that's not the movie's fault.
Mike in Delray:
Have you missed the fads of Harry Potter (was magically violent), Twilight (was horror/monster violent) and the Hunger Games (was violent with kids killing other kids)? These all started as books.
I've been playing video games since the Nintendo NES came out. If I start jumping on turtles and violently squishing them, can I blame Mario Brothers? The problem isn't the games, it's the fact that parents don't monitor what children play. There are ratings on all of these games, and they should be heeded. No 12 year old should be playing games like Call of Duty.
It's up to the parents to make sure their children aren't exposed to these things, and if they are, to explain to them the difference between fantasy and reality.
There were acts of violence before video games were mainstream. How do you explain those?
I don't see how that compares. One is a game or fantasy... the other is the realilty in which they live.
Again, that doesn't compare.
So because some people can't make the distinction between reality and fantasy, we should just do away with it all? So no more books, movies, video games, etc? What goes on in these games is no more violent than what happens in the real world today. Should we do away with the news too? What if someone watched a news report about a shooting and decides to replicate it?
Really Bernitch, as if the left isn't going to take this as an opportunity to push for more gun control and get the anti-gun crowd and their base riled up. Both sides use news to get support for their side, stop acting like your side is so much better and above the rhetoric.
fhill
I still don't think that a CCW would have made that much of a difference, its dark, he has at least one canister of smoke/tear gas and he' wearing armor. Add to that hundreds of people running screaming and who knows what else and I don't think your going to get very good shooting opportunities. He obviously was prepared to face retalliation.
Don't take this to mean I'm against CCW, I'm all for it (as shown by the 71 year old who recently stopped a robbery by shooting the robbers in FLA) I just don't think it would have been the game changer in this situation.
Tyler,
Love it when you "pop" in and let people know where they stand and the suspended thing? It reminds me of High School. LOL
If anything, everyone is learning what the code of honor #'s mean. You got me for a couple days a couple weeks ago. I learned real quick.
Have a good weekend.
Like SadState said, this guy had to put some serious planning into this. All he was looking for was attention, and he got it. He got it at the price of at least 12 souls. He was on a self-appointed mission, and nothing was going to stop him. He chose the implements available to him. No amount of laws would have stopped him from that mission. The pen may be mightier than the sword, but that is only when there is an armed individual backing the pen.
mothermayhem3255 and TomTom-72. Do either of you think, for one second, that abolishing the 2nd Amendment would have stopped this nit from getting weapons for his murdering spree? Just the other day watched a surveillance video of a 71 year old man at an internet cafe pull out a little 380 and stop two would be robbers, with guns, from robbing or hurting innocents in the cafe. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If there were no guns it would be knives, swords, bows and arrows, explosives or clubs doing the same thing. What are you going to do in that case, ban wood, steel, bows and arrows! Get yourselves into a situation like this and you would both wish you had a gun to protect yourselves and other innocent folks around you.
tom i agree with you. my point was that the right person in the right place can make a difference. someone without proper training can make things worse. just because some people carry doesnt make them prepared for every situation
WTF ! Why do you idiots have to turn everything into an opportunity to spout political ideology? this is a tragedy, have some respect!
is it 12 or is it 14 dead? one station says says 14 the another says 12 both were just confirmed by the police?????? one story says it was a 3 month old the other says a 4 month old????? what is right???????
@ Mike in DelRay.......
Ummmm....sorry bud, but this incident had nothing to do with "gangsta rap." I know it must eat at your soul, but, this young idiot was a nerdy senseless screwball "white boy" who decided ( just like Columbine) to go on a killing spree of innocent people, including children. Say whatever you want to cover that fact. Gangsta rappers don't arm themselves, go into schools, and movie theateres with the intent to murder people unknown to them and then go home to barracade themselves. No sir, not their style. Only demented "misunderstood" people like this young white guy do that sort of thing. Crawl back into your closet. The death penalty would be too sweet for this individual, a very dull and rusty hacksaw blade at his neck would be a start....
Ok, I'm a little pissed at those who try to go off on people who take the political route...well a lot pissed off.
I'm sad for the loss of the life and my heart goes out to those families. But at the same time, I feel threatened personally and seeing stories like this often scares me AND YES its a f&*king political issue. I could have been there...for all I know I have friends of family of friends who were there. The guy had an automatic gun and shot 50+ people. How delusional do you have to be to suggest that if everyone was packing they would be safe. Yea...people just sitting there with popcorn and sodas in one hand, guns in other with safety off waiting for the mofo who walks in with a gun.
A friend just posted this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MEzCtyRWP8
It's a short piece by a comedian. Summary: in England, NO ONE owns guns, not even the police. In the year he referenced, England had 14 gun deaths, we had 23,000. He says, there is NO connection between NOT owning a gun, and NOT being able to shoot people, and owning a gun and being able to shoot people. NO CONNECTION (sarc).
In 2009 there were 39 murders by firearm in England and we had over 9000...think about that.
Now I'm not one to go to the extreme of banning guns...but WHY does the man have access to an automatic rifle?
Well since we know who did it, Just shoot the S.O.B. NOW!!!
Tanner Coon, sweetheart go stay with your grandparents or relative outside of the Denver area, you do not need to re-live this over and over. I feel so awful for all the humans that did not deserve this.
Interesting info:
1) The theater was apparently Century owned by Carmike which has a no-firearms policy. So once again folks who tend to follow the rules and guidelines of polite society are at the mercy of those who don't. Although there are plenty of people posting here who insist that someone with a concealed carry permit couldn't have made a difference, we'll likely never know because they aren't 'allowed' in the theater in the first place. I know that, at least in my case, I typically just don't do business in the establishments that say no firearms and I'd suspect that that is the case for most of us who carry.
2) There's at least one Private Investigator who has come forward to say that the shooter part of he Occupy Black Bloc member...the most violent group of the Occupiers.
I just wish the media wouldn't pay any unintended hommage to the gunman by giving his name or any specifics about him. That is what they all want, to be immortalized and get attention.
Truly a tragedy
Meanwhile: http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx
DateCountryNameRankAgeCauseProvincePlace of DeathBranchState/RegionCityUnitStationed
7-19-2012NATONAME NOT RELEASED YETNot reported yet0Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackEastern AfghanistanEastern Afghanistan ISAF Not reported yetNot reported yetNot reported yetNot reported yet
7-19-2012USAshley, Joshua R.Corporal23Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackHelmandHelmand U.S. MarineCaliforniaRancho Cucamonga2nd Law Enforcement Battalion, II Marine Expeditionary ForceCamp Lejeune, NC
7-18-2012USReyes, JoseSergeant24Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack GhanziGhanzi U.S. ArmyPuerto RicoSan Lorenzo110th Transportation Co., 548th Combat Sustainment Support Battalion, 10th Sustainment BrigadeFort Drum, NY
7-18-2012USRodriguez, DanielSergeant28Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackGhanziGhanzi U.S. ArmyMarylandBaltimore110th Transportation Co., 548th Combat Sustainment Support Battalion, 10th Sustainment BrigadeFort Drum, NY
7-16-2012USPerez Jr., Sergio E.Specialist21Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attackKandaharWali Kot District U.S. Army National GuardIndiana Crown Point81st Troop CommandIndianapolis, IN
7-16-2012USTaylor, Nicholas A.Specialist20Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attackKandaharWali Kot District U.S. Army National GuardIndiana Berne81st Troop CommandIndianapolis, IN
7-14-2012USHammar, Carl E.Staff Sergeant24Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireKhowstKhowst U.S. ArmyArizonaLake Havasu City1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Airborne Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry DivisionJoint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Anchorage, AK
7-14-2012USMay, Erik N.Sergeant26Non-hostileGhazni Ghazni U.S. ArmyKansasIndependence2nd Battalion, 16th Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry DivisionFort Riley, KS
7-13-2012USRistau, Michael E.Sergeant25Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackZabulQalat U.S. ArmyIllinoisRockford5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry DivisionJoint Base Lewis-McChord, WA
7-11-2012USWyatt, Sterling W.Not reported yet21Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackKandaharKandahar U.S. ArmyMissouriColumbia5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry DivisionJoint Base Lewis-McChord, WA
7-08-2012USAdkins, Trevor B.Private 1st Class21Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyNorth CarolinaSpring Lake978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police BattalionFort Bliss, TX
7-08-2012USPardo, Alejandro J.Private 1st Class21Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyCaliforniaPorterville 978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police BattalionFort Bliss, TX
7-08-2012USStambaugh, Cameron J.Private 1st Class20Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyPennsylvania Spring Grove978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police BattalionFort Bliss, TX
7-08-2012USWilliams III, ClarenceSergeant23Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyFloridaBrooksville978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police BattalionFort Bliss, TX
7-08-2012USAlecksen, Erica P.Specialist21Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyGeorgiaEatonton978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police BattalionFort Bliss, TX
7-08-2012USSeija, RicardoStaff Sergeant31Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyFloridaTampa978th Military Police Company, 93rd Military Police BattalionFort Bliss, TX
7-08-2012USBatista, JonathanSpecialist22Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireKandaharZharay U.S. ArmyNew JerseyKinnelon2nd Battalion, 321st Airborne Field Artillery Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne DivisionFort Bragg, NC
7-07-2012USNavarro, Juan P.Corporal23Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackKandaharKandahar U.S. ArmyTexasAustin1st Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry DivisionJoint Base Lewis-McChord, WA
7-06-2012USMacFarlane, Bruce A.Captain46Non-hostileKandahar Kandahar U.S. ArmyFloridaOviedo1186th Transportation Company, 831st Transportation BattalionJacksonville, FL
7-04-2012USGuerra, Raul M.Staff Sergeant37Hostile - hostile fire KandaharSpin Boldak U.S. ArmyNew JerseyUnion City502nd Military Intelligence Battalion, 201st Battlefield Surveillance BrigadeJoint Base Lewis-McChord, WA
7-04-2012USRodriguez Jr., Roberto A.Not reported yet0Non-hostile Southern AfghanistanSouthern Afghanistan U.S. ArmyNorth CarolinaHope MillsNot reported yetNot reported yet
7-03-2012USMoosman, Cody O.Private 1st Class24Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire Gayan Alwara Mandi U.S. ArmyIdahoPreston1st Battalion, 28th Infantry Regiment, 4th Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry DivisionFort Riley, KS
7-02-2012AustraliaDiddams, BlaineSergeant40Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireUruzganChorah Valley Australian ArmyNot reported yet CanberraSpecial Air Service RegimentPerth
7-01-2012UKTuisovurua, Apete Saunikalou RatumaiyaleGuardsman28 Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireHelmandNahr-e Saraj district Checkpoint Kamparack Pul British ArmyFijiNot reported yet1st Battalion Welsh Guards, Royal Corps of SignalsNot reported yet
7-01-2012UKRoderick, Craig AndrewGuardsman22Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireHelmandNahr-e Saraj district Checkpoint Kamparack Pul British ArmyWalesCardiff1st Battalion Welsh GuardsNot reported yet
7-01-2012UKThomas, Leonard PerranWarrant Officer Class 2 (WO2)44 Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireHelmandNahr-e Saraj district Checkpoint Kamparack PulBritish ArmyWalesHerefordshire1st Battalion Welsh Guards, Royal Corps of SignalsCardiff
6-27-2012USSkalberg Jr., James L.Sergeant25Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyAlabamaCullman4th Battalion, 1st Field Artillery Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Armored DivisionFort Bliss, Texas
6-27-2012USPrasnicki, Stephen C.1st Lieutenant24Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackWardakMaidan Shahr U.S. ArmyVirginiaLexington4th Battalion, 319th Airborne Field Artillery Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat TeamWarner Barracks, Bamberg, Germany
6-27-2012USWhite, JasonNot reported yet24Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackEastern AfghanistanEastern Afghanistan U.S. ArmyVirginia LexingtonNot reported yetNot reported yet
6-26-2012USLeach, Matthew J.Staff Sergeant29Non-hostileKandahar Kandahar U.S. ArmyMichiganFerndale1/334th Regiment, 1st Brigade, 104th Training Division (Leader Training)Fraser, MI
6-25-2012ItalyBraj, ManueleNot reported yet30Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attackHeratAdraskan Italian ArmyNot reported yetNot reported yet13th Regiment 'Friuli-Venezia Giulia" Not reported yet
6-24-2012NATONAME NOT RELEASED YETNot reported yet0Non-hostile western Afghanistanwestern Afghanistan ISAFNot reported yetNot reported yetNot reported yetNot reported yet
6-24-2012USStrachota, Michael J. Sergeant28Non-hostile - vehicle accidentKandaharsouthern Kandahar U.S. ArmyArkansasWhite Hall96th Transportation Company, 180th Transportation Battalion, 4th Sustainment Brigade, 13th Sustainment Command (Expeditionary)Fort Hood, Texas
6-24-2012USMassarelli, Robert A.Staff Sergeant32Non-hostile - vehicle accidentKandaharsouthern Kandahar U.S. ArmyOhioHamilton 96th Transportation Company, 180th Transportation Battalion, 4th Sustainment Brigade, 13th Sustainment Command (Expeditionary)Fort Hood, Texas
6-23-2012USCotisears, Niall W.Lance Corporal23Hostile - hostile fireHelmandHelmand U.S. MarineVirginiaArlington1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force Twentynine Palms, CA
6-23-2012USHogan, Hunter D.Lance Corporal21Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackHelmandHelmand U.S. MarineIndianaNorman1st Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force Camp Lejeune, NC
6-22-2012USVoelke, Paul C.Major36Non-hostileBalkhMazar E. Sharif U.S. MarineNew YorkMonroe1st Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Heavy Brigade Combat TeamFort Stewart, GA
6-22-2012USStevens II, Steven P.Private 1st Class23Hostile - hostile fireHelmandHelmand U.S. MarineFloridaTallahassee1st Combat Engineer Battalion, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force Camp Pendleton, CA
6-22-2012USMills III, Eugene C.Lance Corporal21Hostile - hostile fireHelmandHelmand U.S. MarineMarylandLaurel1st Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary ForceCamp Lejeune, NC
6-20-2012USMeador II, John D.Specialist36Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire, IED attackKhostKhost U.S. Army National GuardSouth CarolinaColumbia133rd Military Police Company, 51st Military Police BattalionFlorence, SC
6-20-2012USThomas, Matthew B.Sergeant 1st Class30Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire, IED attackKhostKhost U.S. Army National Guard South CarolinaTravelers Rest133rd Military Police Company, 51st Military Police BattalionFlorence, SC
6-20-2012USRawl, Ryan D.1st Lieutenant30Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire, IED attackKhostKhost U.S. Army National GuardSouth CarolinaLexington133rd Military Police Company, 51st Military Police BattalionFlorence, SC
6-19-2012USRodriguez, JoseSergeant22Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireKandaharKandahar U.S. ArmyCaliforniaGustine4th Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry DivisionJoint Base Lewis-McChord, WA
6-18-2012USLallier, Jarrod A.Private 1st Class20Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireKandaharZharay U.S. ArmyWashingtonSpokane1st Battalion, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne DivisionFort Bragg, NC
6-15-2012UKGuy, AlexCorporal37Hostile - hostile fire HelmandNad 'Ali district British ArmyEnglandNorwich1st Battalion The Royal Anglian RegimentNot reported yet
6-15-2012USFredsti, Nicholas C.Sergeant30Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fireKunarSpedar U.S. ArmyCaliforniaSan Diego1st Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne DivisionFort Bragg, NC
6-14-2012USLilly, Joseph M.Sergeant25Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackKandaharPanjwa’l U.S. ArmyMichiganFlint8th Engineer Company, 1st Battalion, 37th Field Artillery Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry DivisionJoint Base Lewis-McChord, WA
6-13-2012UKAshworth, JamesLance Corporal23Hostile - hostile fire - grenadeHelmandNahr-e Saraj district British ArmyEnglandKettering, Northamptonshire1st Battalion Grenadier GuardsNot reported yet
6-12-2012USPinnick, Trevor A.Specialist20Hostile - hostile fire - IED attackKandaharPanjwa’l U.S. ArmyIllinoisLawrenceville18th Engineer Company, 1st Battalion, 37th Field Artillery Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry DivisionNot reported yet
6-12-2012USMcNabb, Barett W.Sergeant 1st Class33Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Kaybee
???? As opposed to what, the number of times you have been shot up in a movie theater? Holy crap are you that dense? I actually agree with your last sentence but we have to take baby steps toward deductive reasoning and a good place to start is reading comprehension. Here let me break down the analogy for you.
Driving to work = going to movie theater
driver = murderer
car = gun
As you said, you have a right to go to a movie theater without getting shot up by a murderer wielding a gun. You also have a right to drive to work without getting hit by a driver (distracted, drunk, enraged, innocent, whatever) wielding a car. Despite those rights, it is not guaranteed that you will not become a victim of either individual and as was both my initial and final point, I would guess that regardless of the danger you are not championing the abolition of all vehicles.
I know that the internet is a diverse place. With that being said I recognize that it was probably unwise to assume that I'm always dealing with those who have the ability to understand simple concepts. I apologize for confusing you but then again maybe you've learned something today; perhaps a silver lining.
Emmanual:
"but WHY does the man have access to an automatic rifle?"
that's a fair question but the reality is that it wasn't an automatic rifle. It was a military 'styled' rifle, which in reality doesn't operate any differently than any other semi automatic (which means auto, as in auto-loading only). True automatic Weapons, as such are strictly regulated by the Feds and it takes a pretty extensive background check by them and proof of safe storage by the potential buyer to ever make a purchase, in addition to the fact that those weapons typically range into thousands of dollars to purchase.
Whether you are religious or not, this man and his his actions were pure evil!
K. Truant:
right on. Why are so many hesitant to use that word (evil) anymore? Incidents like this are are the truest examples of the evil in mankind.
They know he did it. Why? I don't care! If your caught red handed with literally a smoking gun in your hand. That should be all that is needed to execute him. Instead, cue the media circus to begin. The high profile lawyers will start rolling in and justice will take years. Do we wait years to put down a vicious dog that attacks someone? Now we'll all get to hear his whiny reasons for committing this terrible crime.
I don't think there's any doubt who did it on this one. The sooner it's over with, the sooner these families can begin the healing process.
My thoughts and prayers to the families of the innocent victims.
Guns don't killl people; politicans kill people.
"now my question is would you want me sitting next to you and your family in such a situation?"
U can sit next 2 me, dawg! I wouldn't want 2 B shooting at this bitch all by myself. Of course, I wouldn't B by myself if my friend Marcus was still alive.
Marcus was a Vietnam vet who could hardly B around fireworks as it would make him "flash back". So I'm sure that actual gun fire would have put him back THERE and his training & experience in Nam would have had him body tackling this bitch-even if it had cost him his life. So people really need 2 get off the balls of posters like Disabled Vet. Have U been there?
Except the data is on my side, not just the mathematics. Crime rates are down nationwide, especially in States where carry permits are allowed. Violent crime rates are down. Gun crime is down. Gun murders are down. Permits and gun ownership are up simultaneously. Seems like theory is met with data, and the data proves the theory.
Also, historically, as I said in another post, when only spears existed, the per capita violence rates were higher (see anthropology). Those rates decreased because of deterent factor, when swords became more prevelant in society. the rates again decreased as guns became more prevelant. Wars became less likely all along the way as well, and indeed became least likely between two nuclear nations. All of this is due to game theory mathematical decision trees where more weight is given to nonviolent decisions due to deterent factors. The morel ikely you are to be maimed or killed, as an individual or a society, the more nonviolent outcomes are to occur. It's counter intuitive, but deductively logical...mutually assured maiming, destruction, or death are the greatest deterents to maiming, destruction, or death.
This is also how legal penalties work. The more likely you are to be caught, jailed, harmed, maimed, or killed for commiting a crime, the least likely you are to commit that crime. It's all game theory. Police presence on the streets is determined via game theory (based on crime rates in certain areas, and how far apart patrols need to be to deter crime).
So keep your opinions to yourself until you know what you're talking about. More guns in society theoretically, and practically, lead to less violent outcomes. This is why while gun ownership per capita and carry permits per capita have went up, gun murders have gone down.
Please educate yourself on the subject...both in theory and the data available via the FBI, the States, and the counties.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the words "per capita". Clearly Isaid per capita. Look up the facts. There have been less per capita deaths as levels of technology have increased in weaponry and those technologies have become more widespread in society. Stop writing, start reading. Genghis khan once killed over a million people in about a day over an unhappy daughter who requested he do so...an entire city...and the population of the planet was far smaller ( hence "per capita").
There is so much ignorance involved in the anti-weapon crowd...a lot of intuition, not a lot of deductive logic.
Eager to shift the blame off the man who committed the crime aren't we, Mike?
"Just the other day watched a surveillance video of a 71 year old man at an internet cafe pull out a little 380 and stop two would be robbers, with guns, from robbing or hurting innocents in the cafe."
I SAW THAT!!!! Go, grandpa, go!
(It was really funny watching the robbers falling over each other 2 get away.)
Our Country once a safe haven, has become a Country of Warriors.
What has happened? A nightmare that will be repeated and repeated, due to heavy coverage from the Media, suggestions from movies, hoarding weapons, turned into violence or hearing voices telling the sick one to commit such a horrific act. The crazies are really coming out.
He could have belonged to some Terrorist Organization, even though he was in Medical School. That means nothing, since Hassan, the massacreist at Ft. Hood who was a Pyschiatrist, people respecting him; ignoring the signs he had definite personality defects, and words of terror..
All people entering, or who are in Medical School should be required to get a Mental Health Evaluation, before they enter College, and after they graduate..
This could have been random act by a very sick young man. Certainly his family once again knew about his mental illness, harboring him, so he could not be taken away from them. Severe Mental Illness, a subject, no one wants to discuss, or admit in their own family. We cannot have so many nutcases walking the streets.
My heart is filled with sadness for all the dead, and the injured. May the families find some kind of peace. Innocent children and Americans killed again by another freak.
It is no longer safe to go anywhere in public.
@ U don't say
That happened near where I Live. Fortunately, the old fellow was a good shot or just very lucky. Because the perp with the gun was standing right next to some patrons or employees. But, it was nice to see them fall over each other trying to run away.
Don't you have some homework or ball practice to do? Does your mommie know you are being obnoxious over the internet?
When are the Riots going to start?
Were any of them Black? Wearing "Hoodies"? Why didn't someone follow them around and ask them what they were doing out after dark?
Next - Geraldo Rivera will come out to explain why this was "totally" predictable!
Afternoon, fuzzy!
I think gramps should get a medal.............and his 15 mins.
Yes, you're the model of mature civility, Mozzie. Not to mention an excellent example of the of the overuse of the term "ignorant" and all of its derivatives, an afliction that along with the use of the term "kool-aid" I believe to be an Internet epidemic. I have decided that henceforth I will no longer use the term "ignorant" unless it is in a context that denigrates those with a propensity to use it superfluously. I apologize that you have become an early victim; you're not unique in that respect but you were simply the first I noticed. It is what it is.
#1.219
Gee, another election year shooting. What a surprise. Where do the anti-gun forces find these people?
Our society is cursed by violence because we have devalued life.
Hitler and the Nazi's killed 11 to 17 million people.
Our nation alone has executed 50 million + innocent babies in their mothers womb. Mostly for convenience sake.
180movie.com cut, paste, and watch it. I pray it will open someones eyes.
And if you are one of the mothers who aborted your baby, Jesus died for that sin. God loves you and will forgive you and will release you from the bondage of guilt.
"And if you are one of the mothers who aborted your baby"
If the fetus was aborted, they didn't become mothers. So I quote Bugs Bunny: "Want a moroon!"
@ will
You're a little off the subject here. I'm trying to make sense of your post. Are you saying that this happened because we are cursed because of abortions? If so by whom? The loving and forgiving God you speak of?
I can hear the defence lawyers now........."God MADE him do it!"
Try to stay on topic.
They just quoted on the local news that a police chief of some sort in New York had information that this kid had painted his hair and told people he was "The Joker". I am not a major Batman movie buff but in the back of my mind I am thinking I had seen one of those Batman movies years ago that had the Joker using some sort of smoke or gas grenade to launch his attack on the civilians and/or Batman. Is that right? Maybe in some bizzare way this kid had convinced himself he was living out some sort of Joker attacks the civilians Batman movie scene? Has anybody else drawn this parrallell or am I way off here?
As a concerned American, I am heartsick at the crisis that happened in Aurora and want to express my condolences to the families of the deceased and wounded in the theater. People, it is time for us to join together and demand better gun laws in this country. There have been multiple instances of needless mass killings in this country and still guns flow like water through our society. We are almost on a par with third world countries now, when innocent people can't go out to enjoy a movie. It is time for our elected leaders to demand something be done about this travesty.
As an Human I am saddened to see this tragedy occur.
As an American I am saddened further still to see posts like Dreeves...
For those of us that sit back and snicker at the anti-gun nut jobs and their irrational fear of firearms we should be ashamed of ourselves for letting them strip us of our constitutional rights as far as we already have. Rather than mock these people we should invest our efforts in undoing the great wrongs already exacted on the Amercian population with the existing gun "laws" that are on the books now. If you want a fully automatic assault weapon there is no logical reason you should not have one. It is your constitutional right to have one or two or three... We have already let people like Dreeves with that mindset strip us of our constitutional rights, how much more will you let them take?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ~ 1776
#1.227
No, you don't curtail my rights because of somebody else's crime.
And to answer #1.224, he does have a "Jokerish" smirk in the picture they're showing of him.
IMO people with guns are no more than scared little boys to afraid to get into a real fight. I am all for going back to fighting with swords of course I could be a little bias since I have been sword techniques since 6 yrs old.
been training with sword
F off Dreeves. I understand that this is the perfect platform to voice your views and that it is the perfect situation of which to take advantage. F off though; you're the minority on this and it's sickening the lengths you people will go to push your nonsense. What a disgusting thing to do.
Tons of insensitivity here. These things are the reason more people need to carry legally concealed weapons! If there were 10 armed citizens in every crowd this would not happen! Nuts would stop trying it for one thing, they'd probably be killed instead of captured! Arm yourselves, the police are always late.
ah ...so the religion of peace strikes again ....color me surprised ....
ohhh sorry ...color me stupid ...i thought he was muslim ...
Yup! Just what we need ! More guns out there with the republican drive and NRA all over America with their "Conceal and Carry!" Expect a lot more deaths thanks to them. As proof, our Wisconsin sicko governor got "Conceal and Carry" and then dropped all training requirements thanks to pressure from the NRA. To heck with the 2nd Amendment!
America is too attracted to guns, wars, violent movies/video games, violent sports, machine recreation, and the general killing of life. Our country is the most dangerous of Western countries, and the NRA and all who worship guns will never even consider why. It's not just one crazy person here or there, although the shooter is of course crazy and needs to be executed. It's our culture that has the wrong values and not enough love for live.
They will deny it to keep fear at bay, however I won't believe it.
This was a terrorist act folks.
Thank goodness no one in the crowd was carrying a gun and was able to shoot and stop this man. If someone had, we probably would have villainized THEM as being the killer, rejected their self defense claims, and publicly ridiculed them for taking a sacred human life. And if our gas mask shooter had been black and/or wearing a hoodie? Oh no, heaven forbid, the one who took him down would be a racist and a bigot.
FORGET THE SOCIOPOLITICAL PLATFORM!
Forget the labels of red, yellow, brown, black, white, bi, gay, straight, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, and whatever else we like to label ourselves and each other as. Those are intangibles, and irrelevant.
The simple fact here today is that people died who didn't have to. People who were minding their own business going out to see one of the most-anticipated move debuts of the year and were gunned down, had their lives end horribly, tragically, for no apparent purpose that we can see. If you have a Deity that you believe in, ask that Deity for strength, ask that Deity to help those injured, the children most of all; ask that they be healed quickly, body, mind and spirit. Step outside of yourself and your life for once and give your most sincere prayers/thoughts/wishes to the victims of this tragedy.
The person who did this is as much a victim as anyone else, the victim of a twisted mind and skewed logic that made this senseless act make sense to him. He is to be pitied; if you believe in a Deity, ask that Deity for wisdom, for tolerance, for patience and forgiveness. The person who can commit this kind of outrage is truly ill.
His family is as much a victim as those shot; they too are shocked, stunned, horrified at this senseless act of violence. Keep them in mind as well, for he was their son, their brother, cousin, nephew, maybe uncle. He was once an innocent, as the children he shot were innocent.
Keep those victims in mind; for the ones that died, hope that their passing was quick and they did not suffer. Hope that their families ill be able to celebrate the lives they lived, however long or short; that they can remember their loved ones as they were, instead of as they are. For the victims still alive, hope for a speedy recovery, for full recovery in body, mind and spirit; hope that they will not succumb to their injuries.
And lastly, hope for yourselves, your fellow man, and your nation. Never forget the horror and tragedy of this day; remember that we are all human and we are all united in shock and horror and sadness in this one moment, and remember the unity in days to come as more details of the lives ruined bring their humanity before our eyes.
There will be plenty of time, in the days to come, to point fingers, assign blame, claim that it was this political faction or that political faction, that this was not done right, that that did not happen. For now, let us simply unite our voices in a single call for support, sympathy; support those who will need healing, and send good wishes after those who left us last night.
As more details emerge, it is clear this guy had an agenda if based on nothing more than his apparel of choice and how he left his apartment armed. Don't think about using an insanity defense, etc. If convicted, (and this appears to be a no brainer) this guy needs to be removed from society in a way that makes it clear to anyone, what will happen to you if you have ideas as this. Say what you will about death penalties, etc. but punishment administered swiftly and surely is a deterrent that has long been missing from our homes, schools, and society. In a nutshell - take responsibility for your own actions and be prepared for the consequences. IMO until this changes. society has and will continue its downward spiral and events like this will only occur with more and more frequency.
Like Columbine, Like VT, Like Tucson...the question remains...how do we keep guns (especially the semi-automatics) away from the nuts? Shame on those close-minded bastards who currently lead the NRA and all the wackos out there who block every sensible attempt to keep guns away from the nuts. I hope your children are never harmed by a nut who carries a semi-automatic.
Motz:
assuming that all long guns and semi automatics could be effectively be removed today, in what way do we prevent their re-introduction along with the narcotics-that have already been illegal for decades and are flooding across our borders?
This isn't a matter of NRA controlling anyone. What this is about is the reality that police cannot respond until after the criminal has done his damage. With a complete ban on semi-automatic firearms you will have, with a stroke of the president's pen, created a new vast and extremely lucrative market in illegal weapons for our cartel friends in the south...as well as the Russian and Italian Mafia.
The idea that one can eliminate firearm usage in this country by criminals by banning this or that type is utopian, naive and based in no way on reality.
Condolences to the families and friends of the 12 souls lost so far. Tragedies are always difficult to understand. Hopefully more facts will make it a little easier to comprehend.
Our thoughts and prayers are with all involved.
Training is cool and everything but most incidents are very fast. In Washington 4 or 6 cops (can't recall exactly) were eating breakfast. A nut bar walked in and started firing. From a seated position one was able to get a shot into the guy and I believe wrestle with him for a few minutes. People that get shot don't always die immediately like Hollywood. Some run up to porches and bang on doors requesting help, some wrestle with cops (I worked with a cop that had to wrestle with a guy for 10-20 minutes after shooting him three times), some are on drugs however it is most likely because of shot placement.
I'm not sure why some people think a vest protects your arms, legs, neck, and head from attacks. Bounce a 40 cal off the gas mask and serious damage is going to occur, shoot them in the arm they may lose the ability to shoot, shoot them near the femural artery and they will bleed out fast. hit the groin area and they are likely going down. Missing creates a muzzle flash and may have an undesired affect for you though.
Personally I never understood the difficulty in aiming a firearm. I don't compete but I stood beside an 2nd or 3rd in the world ipsec speed shooter and was near his speed and more accurate most of the time. He was able to pull the trigger faster than the glock could respond though and this probably affected his accuracy. The first time I shot a compund bow the guy at the shop called me a liar. It had sites all I did was aim, hold my breath, and click the release. I hit all three shots 2 inches from center bullseye. I wasn't wearing glasses and I am nearsighted so I could not see the shaft in the target. I had to walk up to see it. Aiming and shooting isn't that hard. Having an opportunity is another thing all together.
I watched trained officers point a firearm down range and run for cover in a school yard shooting scenario. It was fast, he had a face shield on, he ducked his head, pointed towards the school and emptied the clip while heading for cover He never looked at the area he shot. Our shootback system generally would hit you in the leg if it was hanging out or it would be bounced off walls and podiums to create the distraction of flying debris and noise from gunshots. But trained officers often did not keep cool. There are some lose only scenarios and no training, no security, no anti gum hoohah is going to stop it. Five guys get out of a car and open fire you better hope they are bad shots and have something real sturdy between you.
This guy was a psycho and this was a lose lose scenario. In his frame of mind he probably could have killed 10 folks with a paper clip.
Body armor doesn't protect you completely. Your head, legs, arms are still exposed. It only protects your chest area. A good shooter could have hit him in the head or the main artery in his leg.
Now the tear gas might of posed a problem for a shooter since it does affect the eyes. A responsible shooter would not taken a chance of hitting this individual if they were unable to see him clearly. Shooting off tear gas caused the individuals in the theater to stand up, therefore it would be very difficult for another person to determining during the chaos who the bad guy was. The majority of People who own guns are responsible individuals, they don't shoot unless they know they have a clear & free aim.
I for one am really surprised with right to carry in Colorado that not one person out of all these people shot off a gun to try and stop this guy. But then again we won't know that until after all the autopsies are done and bullets are identified. Or until they interview someone who had a gun and tells the media why they were unable to get off a shot.
More than likely its because of no clear, identifying aim, not because of body armor or tear gas.
scotlee,
you raise very good points...but it is better to do something than nothing. I would support mandatory gun training given by the NRA, background checks and a federal database so criminals or nuts can't get guns. We have more gun deaths in this country than every other industrialized country combined. There is no reason for this.
clb-462357 somebody posted earlier that this movie theater has the legal federal post that prevents the legal carrying by those that are licensed. I avoid all commercial establishments that post to prevent the legal carrying of firearms.
"Maybe you need to spend less time on theory and more time on examining practicalities. Increased prevalence of weapons technology in a society leaves everyone with PTSD. We already know this from Iraq and Afghanistan, where being surrounded by a heavily armed civilian population is considered the equivalent of living in a perpetual war zone. Do we want our cities to be like Baghdad?"
So your justification of wanting to disarm the US population is that if some foreign military occupies our country they'll all have PTSD? Good thinking! The rest of what you said is almost as well thought out.
SHOOTER in a neuroscience program at University of Colorado-Denver medical school.
Ohhhh......an "intellectual". The kind the Left gets googly-eyed over.
u don't say and Fuzzy,
did you watch the movie?
180movie.com
The ONLY person I can think of who might derive
some sort of "SICK PIGGY" type self-satisfaction
from this tragedy would be
MICHAEL MOORE!
No doubt, he will be on one or more of the
"talking head" style shows tonight on liberal TV
networks like CNN, and NBC, telling everyone in
his uniquely, whiney style,
"SEE, I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO!".
The ONLY person I can think of who might derive
some sort of "SICK PIGGY" type self-satisfaction
from this tragedy would be
MICHAEL MOORE!
No doubt, he will be on one or more of the
"talking head" style shows tonight on liberal TV
networks like CNN, and NBC, telling everyone in
his uniquely, whiney style,
"SEE, I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO!".
kaybeetoys Comment collapsed by the community
What is really insane is the gun violence that happens every day in this country.
Cue the gun nuts and NRA supporters. Take it away, people. Excuse it, justify it. We know... guns don't kill people. blah blah blah
Where are your 'conceal and carry' guys when you need them? They never seem to be around ...or else they're too chickensh!t to get involved.
kaybeetoys, Aurora CO. Has a "Concealed Carry Ban" http://www.coloradoceasefire.org/munilaws.htm so "Where are your 'conceal and carry' guys when you need them?" Nowhere because they're not allowed in Aurora CO.!!!
The cities with the most gun control have the most violent crime. (Washington DC, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles) That is because violent criminals want to kill, but are cowards and prefer to work where they are safe. That is why we have very little where I live.
A criminal in NY knows that if he walks into a convenience store, he will be the only one with a gun. A criminal where I live in NC knows that if he walks into a convienience store, he will be totally out-gunned. The guy behind the counter has a 9 mm, the manager has a 12 ga. in his office, the lady getting wine coolers has a Lady 38 with the color coordinated hand grips in her special holster purse and the guy filling up his truck has a gun rack with a choice of rifle or shotgun. Simply put, robbing in my area is suicidal. that's why cowards like this this guy in CO always do these things in places where nobody can shoot back (Places with "Concealed Carry Bans" like Schools, Colleges, Parks, and businesses that have state law rights to exclude) . That's why he wore so much body armor, more than Marines get!
u dont say i miss marcus too. even if i didnt know him i was a navy corpsman 1970-74 stay safe my friend.
This guy is a complete loon and he comes from California 8) I swear we breed the sickos.
RIP to all the victims and prayers for the wounded.
Motz:
thank you for your even-handed reply. It was as appreciated as it is rare in this electronic media.
As such, I will respond in like fashion.
Your point on background checks seems reasonable from licensed dealers for sure. It does however seem to duplicate the federal insta-check that currently is already on the books. Databases are a slippery slope. If you are simply indicating all criminals convicted of a violent crime, then certainly do it. If you are talking about a database of all legal firearms owner then absolutely not. I don't think of this as paranoia, merely a healthy disinclination to have the government intrude into an activity that by its definition is legal.
As far as the mandated training goes... to a certain extent I agree that there really isn't a downside to training in any venture in life that one undertakes, including firearm ownership. The sticky part is three-fold:
1) is the training requirement necessary before the purchase? Domestic violence and stalking are situations where forcing the training first could result in a well-intentioned and very dead women who hadn't finished her course of instruction. This isn't conjecture. There is a decent body of both anecdotal evidence as well as research into the subject and the general consensus is that obstacles to firearm ownership by women increases the risk of assault.
2) The most comprehensive estimates extant indicate an approximate 1 million to 1.5 million instances of defensive firearm usage a year, which most often is simply when a firearm is brandished the perpetrator flees. The reality is most criminals are cowards. They back away from a real fight and instead choose points of attack in which their victims are least capable of defending themselves. This shooting was a prime example. Carmike owned theaters are a great example...signs at the entrances prohibiting firearms. This criminal had nothing but sheep inside.
3. Lastly, is the mandatory training going to be an additional fee? I'd propose that since the Supreme Court ruled that a tax/penalty for not participating in a particular constitutional activity can be levied, then a small tax on all citizens not carrying a pistol is reasonable as well.
As far as your final point, it would be far too simplistic to simply point at one item in crime fighting methods (gun control) in other countries as a panacea answer. If you look at those other industrialized countries, their methods of arrest, detainment before being charged with a crime and the court systems themselves would be anathema to most US citizens. Being free to use coercion (including methods considered abuse and torture) also play a large role in high conviction rates and lower crime rates I would argue. With that said, gun ownership in and of itself, when using the European model is deceptive as one of the richest of the European nations, Switzerland has MANDATED firearm ownership. In fact all military aged men are required by law to keep a fully automatic assault rifle and ammo in their home. As such, there must be a better answer to high crime rates than simply the existence of a type of tool.
What is the real cause of violent behavior in our society then? This question fascinates me as the answers seem so multi-faceted that one could probably spend one's entire life researching the many causes.
It occurs to me that the 14 year old Arizona boy who defended his 3 younger siblings from an armed home intruder just last month might understand better than you or me the value of his father owning a handgun. And the 19 year old young widow who defended herself and her baby from 2 armed, male home intruders earlier this year would probably defend my right and yours to own and bear firearms. Children are alive today because a gun, used in defense in those scenarios, made it so. What a travesty, though, that a 6 year old and 4 month old are dead today because one man decided to use several guns for destructive purposes. Guns aren't the problem. Poor exercise of free will is. These victims and their loved ones are in my prayers.
The 2nd Amendment needs to be repealed! The NRA needs to stop allowing the call for more guns! Murderers!
Debora:
You will find out this mass murderer is "Bi-Polar" on no medication.
Have known many--- They have extreme high and low moods, weird thoughts and sometimes acting out real life/or fiction scenarios.. Not all do this. depending on the severity of the illness.
Bi-Polar patients are extremely smart and brilliant. Very creative.
Brilliance, guns, and being a murderer, does not make them smart, but a very sick individual who should have been constantly treated for this Mental Disorder. No one can make an older person take their meds.
That is the problem.
clwyd really you have two chances of that happening slim and none!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blaming guns for this is so stupid. A gun is a tool and yes in the wrong hands can cause destruction. Just like a car in the wrong hands can cause destruction, a chainsaw in the wrong hands can cause destruction, an ax in the wrong hands can cause destruction, gasoline in the wrong hands can cause destruction and you could go on and on. It's not the tool that's used. It's the person using it. Should we ban cars because of the huge number of people who are killed by DUI's and reckless drivers every year? This was not because of guns this was because a mentally unstable person lost touch with reality. I feel for the victims and their families.
"u dont say i miss marcus too. even if i didnt know him i was a navy corpsman 1970-74 stay safe my friend."
U missed out, my friend. Marcus was a cut-above-the-rest. We need more men like him.
I'll keep my eyes open 4 your posts, my friend.
1970-1974, thank U!
@Gibsonlespaul,
Great post, dawg!
Kaybee
Posted by JD:
???? As opposed to what, the number of times you have been shot up in a movie theater?
As you said, you have a right to go to a movie theater without getting shot up by a murderer wielding a gun. You also have a right to drive to work without getting hit by a driver (distracted, drunk, enraged, innocent, whatever) wielding a car. Despite those rights, it is not guaranteed that you will not become a victim of either individual and as was both my initial and final point, I would guess that regardless of the danger you are not championing the abolition of all vehicles.
Wrong rationale. I was a semi driver for 30 years, and I was shot at by some enraged car driver or by someone with a gun alongside the road at least 10 times in that time frame. To be sure, there were thousands of other enraged car drivers who tried very hard to cut me off, or slam on the brakes in front of me, and even a few other semi drivers guilty of that kind of behavior too. I have also been shot at by someone in a car when I was driving a car more than once too. Most of these incidents happened in big cities, but some happened in rural areas too.
I have been robbed at gunpoint several times working in gas stations too, and there were numerous shootings inside of high schools in the Detroit-area where I grew-up every year back in the 1970s. One year in the 1970s just the City of Detroit had over 800 murders including a dozen on New Year's Eve. It was when I was in high school at a neighboring high school in the mid-1970s that there was a gang shoot-out at Pontiac Central High School that killed and wounded a total of more than 10 students, and Pontiac is a suburban city 28 miles from downtown Detroit too. When I worked at a gas station in Waterford, MI in the mid-1970s, when I was outside talking to a customer, there was unmistakable gunfire at a neighboring roller rink and a big Caddy 4-door came screaming out of there and headed back toward Pontiac at high speed, roaring right by us at high speed too, that only cost a couple of lives too.
One problem that this society has is that it is addicted to the right to own an ancient personal protection weapon that can kill people. Everybody wants to be a tough guy, and all that it takes is a little provocation, a bad grade on a test, losing a job, an argument at home, road-rage on the highway, hungry kids and no money to feed them, or other problems like an abusive upbringing and a drug or alcohol problem, and suddenly a seemingly conscientious and responsible gun owner crosses the line and becomes a murderer, which costs taxpayers and the victim's family a thousand times what the involved gun and any legal perceived benefit from it does.
The problem is guns, and their mass-ownership, plain and simple, no iff's, and's, or but's!!! The technology has existed for 50 years to own a non-lethal personal protection weapon but we refuse to embrace it because of the allegedly-responsible gun ownership lobbies, who always say that people kill other people and that guns are blameless, ignoring the fact that guns would be a whole lot less-responsible for more than 50,000 murders every year, even some of them allegedly "justified", if they were kept in secure display cases, or even melted-down to make trunk lids with. If it is legal for our government to demand seat-belt use in our cars, than it is perfectly legal for our government to demand a safer living environment where the only personal protection weapons would be non-lethal too!!!
Please note that I have nothing at all against legitimate hunting weapons and their legitimate and responsible ownership, even though hundreds of hunting fatalities annually could be prevented if those weapons were included in a mass-ownership ban on weapons that fire bullets too. It might take 20 or even 30 years to wrest nearly-complete control of handguns and other non-hunting weapons away from mass legal ownership and completely convert to non-lethal personal protection weaponry, but aren't 30,000 or more lifeless victims every year worth it, let alone the cost to society of dealing with the perpetrators???
I did a recent study on legal gun ownership in Great Britain versus legal gun ownership in just California, and the corresponding murder rates, and even though California has only roughly 55% of the population of Great Britain, where hunting weapons are legal but mass-handgun ownership is not, just California exceeds Great Britain annually in terms of murders by a 5-figure number. (Over 10,000 more murders annually). Are those 10,000 innocent lives worth anything to you gun nuts or not???
My guess is not!!! I'm sorry, but I'm one American who ever so strongly feels that it is way past time for this country to move forward toward a much less lethal future without most of our guns.
Mike in Delray
I've been playing shoot em up video games and listening to rock/rap since i was 10 yrs old 34 now.
I have never wanted to go out and shoot someone or rip there head off with there spine attached cause i seen it on a video game. So your idea behind that is shot to pieces. It is just so easy to blame others/things on peoples behavior instead of having the balls to man up and say i did it on my own. Just like the people who claim mental defect just to get away with what they done, its a cop out and everyone knows it. Kids who have a legit mental or physical problems should not be allowed to play video games there minds can not tell the difference between whats real and whats fake.
Now since that's out of the way.
My prayers go out to the family and friends of the people killed/injured may god be with them thru this terrible time.
"I doubt he was religious at all. Just some deadbeat loser who couldn't make anything more of himself other than possibly a burger flipper at Wendy's."
Not exactly. He was a graduate student who was on his way to being a Neuroscientist. He started procedures to withdraw from the program immediately prior to this whole mess. Whatever he was protesting against will come to light soon. This was not your regular maladjusted misfit lone wolf terrorist.
The plain fact in this situation is that guns don't kill people, people kill people! This idiot could have just as easily gone on the internet and found out how to make a poor-man's napalm with gasoline and tide detergent and killed even more. Would the liberals scream that we needed to outlaw Tide and gas? (I really think that some would!) Maybe we should start treating each other with a little more civility and respect and not use every incident as a way for the liberals in this country to try to gain more and more control over all of our lives. I have a strong belief that everyone in this country should have the absolute right to bear arms as promised (and reinforced by many past and recent Supreme Court judgements) in the Constitution. Please don't think that I believe that people in this country should have bazookas and nuclear bombs, but the liberal, anti-gun, government-control, intelligensia want to take all rights away so that they can take proper care of us, whether we like it or not!
By the way, I live in Aurora and have gone to movies in that same theater over the years. Aurora is a beautiful city where these kinds of actions are a shock to many. But, if a few of the theater goers had concealed weapons this situation may have ended much quicker and with a lot less loss of life!
Dick 1955, After reading your post, I understand how your parents decided on your name.
I'm pro-gun - but this tired argument I must say (and I apologize) is just silly, and it makes pro-gun people look silly when they make it.
A brick, a knife, a bat... whatever.. is nothing compared to the killing power and efficiency of a gun. A gun, especially hand-guns and many rifles, are designed specifically to kill people. There is no way around that, that's. That argument you are making is nothing short of a false-equivalency... making it does nothing to strengthen a position on gun-rights.
except thats exactly what they are doing in britian because surprise people who want to kill people find a way to do so. they took away guns and stabbings sky rocketed, now their trying to ban chef knives and fillet knives due to stabbing crime. it may be a logically fallacious argument but people do not behave logically and have proven that is the exact route they will take. the number of laws here has exploded for just the same basic reason. we outlaw murder but people break the law and murder so we outlaw behaviors that are themselves not harmful because they may be associated with said illegal act(owning a gun). when people who wouldnt obey the first law (murder) break the second (own a gun where prohibited), we pass a third law to outlaw another behavior/object (looking at guns or using them for sport or touching them if your a felon regardless of why) that leads to people doing/having the other thing (owning a gun) that may or may not lead to the first crime (murder). it gets quite silly, look at the laws against drunk driving, not defending drunk driving but murder is already illegal and so is public intoxication, so we passed another law reckless op, then another, dui/dwi, now more -party plates/breathalyzer devices to start cars. so yes i agree with you it is a stupid argument but it has sadly proven to be true for a stupid cowardly populace.
Barack Obama has actually made it easier to get guns since his inauguration..he has relaxed the laws........what we need is an anti-gun President ,and that will be Mitt Romney; As Governor of Massachusetts he pushed for laws to end,completely, the right to possess assault weapons,stating that "They are only made to kill human beings and must be banned." Romney also stated "I strongly support the anti-gun laws here in Massachusetts, it's too bad the the rest of the nation doesn't follow our example."
There was not much that could have prevented this tragedy. This guy chose his targets well, and came fully prepared in case he'd face resistance. Who comes to a movie theater packing heat? Even if, you'd be outgunned with a handgun against an assault rifle. Given his prior record, there was no indicator that would have tipped off anyone that he was about to engage in a massacre like that.
Despite that, gun violence has been going down consistently over the last years. So instead of dramatizing and politicizing this, treat it as an unfortunate incident. This is NOT a trend.
Sad, what a travesty.
I play violent and gory videogames, read violent and gory books, watch violent and gory movies...I own multiple weapons (no guns): various blades, daggers, swords, sais, and a pair of scythes. I have training in the martial arts.
I haven't killed anyone. I refuse to do so. I have been in fights where I have delivered blows in self defense. I won't kill anyone because there is a little thing called LAWS. I already know the consequences of killing someone and I'm not going to put myself into that situation.
Guns make it far too easy to kill people AND they depersonalize the act of killing. You can just point and shoot. If people had to work harder to kill someone, and really get up close and personal with someone to do it (e.g. with a knife), I believe there would be far fewer murders. Look at Canada, the UK, Sweden, Switzerland and so forth. The fact that we have 30,000+ gun deaths per year screams that something needs to be done about this. If you can't see this, you have blinders on.
sotired:
I understand your point but ask this in return: why wouldn't I have my concealed carry pistol on me...unless I was in a theater owned by Carmike like that one which expressly prohibits firearms? Kind of ironic that these things are typically most successful in establishments or 'gun-free' campuses where those of us who follow the rules are basically sheep.
As far as the point that an individual with a CCP would be outgunned, technically you are correct but like all who make that point you are missing the bigger issue with the perpetrator. Just like in 1-1.5 million instances based on the most comprehensive survey extant, the law abiding citizen with the pistol comes out on top...usually without firing a shot. The point is that like most criminals this guy was looking for the weak and unprotected. Who were the likely moviegoers going to be at a midnight showing during the work week? He knew they'd be primarily kids, teenagers and college-aged young adults with a small number of working adults. That's an easy one to guess.
And that guess is backed up by the events themselves. Despite all the tactical this and that the man was a coward who surrendered as soon as ARMED individuals (police) confronted him directly. He didn't have an extended shoot-out with them and that speaks much louder about the type of coward he was than anything else. All the protective gear in the world can't overcome the cowardice inside that pathetic waste of a human.
Moonwolf:
Including Switzerland in your discussion was not the best of choices...since in that country possession of a FULLY automatic assault rifle and ammunition in ones home is mandatory for military aged males. Further, pistol ownership is widespread so the idea that the possession of a particular tool makes the US extraordinarily violent compared to other industrialized nations is a poor one. Further, as I noted in one of my previous comments, to make such a simple argument that gun control is why Europe has a lower gun violence rate, completely ignores the much harsher police methods used there...methods that many would rightly scream violates our civil rights.
That was exactly my point. And don't forget that an unexpected aggressor always has the advantage, because of reaction time lost. I always hear about knife defense techniques, when there really isn't one...except, when you carry, are always prepared, and are unstrapped...
"24 yr.old shooter....Generation X-Box/Playstation....a decade of dark movies, violent video games....A Dozen players killing each other over internet gamer websites..Hundreds of these interactive gamer websites..... Disconnected from reality.....only there is no "Reset" button in real life....dead is really dead in the real world...I don't recall anyone going on a killing spree after playing Mario Bros......
Gansta Rap on MTV....Turf wars/drive-by's all over the place in Chicago and elsewhere....It's crazy, crazy out there...."
this is a weak argument. video games and R-rated movies don't create mass murderers.
Charles Whitman went on a shooting spree and killed 16 people and injured an additional 32. did television, video games and gangsta rap make him a killer? I would be inclined to say "NO" because he did this in 1966 (say it out loud to yourself. NINETEEN SIXTY-SIX)
did television, gansta rap and video games cause Andrew Kehoe to kill 44 people (the majority being children between the ages of 7-12) and injure and additional 58 people with homemade bombs? again, I would be inclined to say "NO." why? this crime was committed in 1927.
mass murder isn't a new thing that just popped up in the last 30 years. also: "Gansta Rap on MTV..." I'm pretty sure MTV doesn't even play music anymore.
I would agree that gun rights are a deterrent for malevolent folks. Prospective home invaders have to be prepared to stare down a barrel themselves. Also, music, video games and violent movies aren't causing (gun) violence. Most of us do one or the other, and it doesn't make us shoot up others. It takes a disturbed mind to go out and wanting to harm innocent people.
Jamie Evans:
I agree with you 100%... This country is becoming more and more ASS backwards everyday!!!
This is A key reason why more people should conceal carry firearms in this country. (not take them away like all the liberals, who want government to control everything in our lives and follow there beloved dictator obama, think)
This could have maybe been avoided if maybe just maybe there was a, some what trained CCW license holder in that theater With a concealed Defensive Pistol on there person!
Open your EYEs people The more people that arm them selves and take their lives into their own hands instead of the governments, the more crime rates go down!!! LOOK at Florida If you want proof... If thats not enough look at Arizona or Texas now these state do it right.
I'm not saying that all Gun owners are safe, As in i'm sure that this kid's guns where legally registered.... BUT shouldn't we ARM the people to protect ourselves from these people, or should we take everyone's guns away so only criminals who buy there guns out of country on the black market have guns and then these crazy @!$%#ers like this kid can just buy firearms from them... so that it is untraceable and we can not document anything to show patterns!!!! HHHHMMMMMMMMMM
Quote: GOD GAVE YOU A HEAD FOR A REASON, THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED A BRAIN IN THERE, USE IT!!!
Wow. This is literally the third mass shooting this week....how many this month?....how many this year?
Notably, I haven't seen any mass "shovelings" or mass "battings" or even mass "stabbings" in the news. Moreover, despite the gun folk's constant contentions that "he could have just made a bomb/napalm/incendiary device/poison gas/etc. and killed all those people", those things are outlawed outright...unlike the guns that are used to perpetrate 95+% of our murders...and guess what, making those items (e.g., bombs and poison gas) illegal generally works as a deterrent and is perfectly Constitutional...people can't use them because they can't get them easily and your "right to bear arms" isn't infringed (says the high court).
Note gun totin' (drawl) aMericans...your right is one "to bear arms", not guns. Why, then, if the right "to bear arms" is so sacred, are bombs illegal? Why is poison gas so highly regulated (i.e., distributed only for rodent and insect eradication to those with permits)? Why is private ownership of a tank illegal? Please do give me a reasoned explanation as to why these arms are illegal and not assault rifles or semi-auto handguns.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we could modify the ole NRA mantra and say "Yeah, guns don't kill people absent a shooter, but they sure do make it a whole hell of a lot easier for someone so inclined." And, perhaps, just perhaps, in so doing we could begin a reasoned public debate about rational regulations to prevent these machines designed with one purpose (to kill) from being so widespread and readily available.
Just a thought folks... I sure do love this country, but I sure do hate our third world murder rate and our wildly irrational gun laws.
Really why are people calling for gun control. The killer could have used knives! You know 90 knives thrown a minute !
Maybe we should loosen the rules on uranium too. Uranium doesn't kill- people do. If they don't use nuclear missles, they will just use something else !
Also, I must say, I love all this "my protected Constitutional rights" talk from the self same folks who brought us the Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security, the TSA and their naked scanners, unwarranted wire tapping/GPS tracking/dummy cell towers/internet monitoring/email reading and the ability of the good ole US of A to kill private citizens abroad if they happen to be on a secret government kill list.
Is the concept of logical consistency Greek to you folks?
You'd have to be a pretty darn good shooter to hit someone in the femoral artery in the DARK with tear gas in your eyes while they were moving without hitting any of the panicked people all around him! Unfortunately, this guy apparently had a groin protector as well, which would make it even harder to hit, as the femoral artery is most easily accessed in the groin-probably a big reason why he was wearing protection there other than the obvious. Otherwise, you'd have to trust to luck. The guy also apparently had a helmet on.
This doesn't mean that I'm against responsible gun ownership. It just means that this guy was very well prepared and protected and that I seriously doubt a typical gunman or woman in the theatre could have taken him out without an elephant gun or something. In that case the would-be savior would have killed many other people as well. I know it makes people feel better to think they could have done something to stop this tragedy, but I really don't think anyone could have stopped it-at least not anyone else in the theatre besides the killer himself. My heart goes out to all who were affected.
If guns are to blame because they are the tool that he used to carry out his distorted fantasy then the movie should be just as much to blame for planting the thoughts in his mind. I read a post saying guns are the most destructive thing in our country. You are very wrong. The most destructive thing that affects both willing people and unwilling people in our country is Tobacco! It kills a lot more people than guns do. Guns are a tool. Just because you don't need one for your everyday life because you live in a city somewhere doesn't mean there aren't people who's lives depend on guns in other places.
The criminal is covered in full body armor. Even if someone in there has a gun, they would be the first to get kill.
Many of you are wondering why small children were in the theatre for such a violent movie. I have often wondered the same thing myself when I have seen young children with their parents at PG-13 and even R-rated movies. I'm not sure what the parents are thinking. I have personally BEEN one of those kids; when I was only eight years old back in the 1960's my dad took all of us to see an extremely violent R-rated movie, and I have no idea what HE was thinking. My brother was even younger than I was, but my dad insisted that we all had to go to the movie. In all fairness, it was supposed to be a really good movie; and it may have won some awards-it was based on a true story, I think. I can't say that it traumatized me for life, but I certainly remember it-and I definitely didn't enjoy it! Maybe some of these parents are thinking that since it's supposed to be such a good movie...
Look, I'm not saying that they are necessarily doing the best thing; and I definitely don't think it was the best thing for us to go to that movie when I was eight. Regardless, no parent has perfect discernment all the time. At any rate, my sympathies to those who lost loved ones, particularly to those who lost children. They certainly meant no harm to their children, especially not anything like this.
Washington didn't beat the British with Free Speech. He shot them.
Freedom and Liberty is solely dependent on the Individual. We are told not to feed wild animals as they will become dependent. Yet we encourage humans to be fed with handouts, as if they deserve it.
The firearm did nothing wrong. It operated as it was supposed to. It was the human that malfunctioned. Why is the firearm blamed?
What knife names do you know? Why don't you? People are killed by knives. If you are killed by a firearm, are you worse dead than if you were killed by a knife?
"Well, a gun can do more people" So can a can of gas.
"But a gun is easier to get..........wait...."
When humans cease wholly preying upon each other, humanity will cease to exist.
@SadState....You apparently don't have very good reading comprehension. I never said I had proof of anything. In fact, I said quite the opposite. I stated that we all need to wait until we know more facts about this psychotic individual before we go making judgments that the killer was or was NOT motivated by politics. As I said, he obviously was a mentally unstable individual. I was simply pointing out that the media, including Rush, were making assumptions that the movie had a political agenda. Which is absurd, because the movie was made long before anyone knew that Romney would be the Rep. nominee, and that the villain Bane was around for a long time. So the media, and anyone making assumptions that the character Bane is representing the occupy movement is beyond silly. However, my first thought when this horrible massacre happened, was that the killer MAY have been influenced by those who are saying the movie has a political agenda. I have no proof of that, and I never said I did. It just seems a bit too coincidental that this guy goes on a shooting spree of a movie that has been a subject of recent political debate. I'm not taking political sides, nor do I have an agenda, nor am I "crazy." Perhaps it's like the song "I don't like Mondays," which was written about a young girl in CA who went to school on a Monday, shot and killed many of her classmates. When asked why she did it, she said "She didn't like Mondays." And as the song says "the silicon chip insider her head gets switched to overload, and nobody's going to go to school today she's going to make them stay at home, and Daddy doesn't understand it, he always said she was good as gold, and we can SEE NO REASON, cause THERE ARE NO REASONS, WHAT REASON DO YOU NEED TO BE SHOWN?" Maybe there is no rhyme or reason to this young man's actions. He is apparently a very intelligent individual, and there is a fine line between genius and madness. He obviously crossed that line into madness. However, there are so many crazy things like this happening today, it makes you wonder. Is it environmental factors? Chemicals in our foods, water, air, etc? What is making people turn into "zombies" and eating people's faces off, or shooting a theater full of moviegoers? Perhaps we'll never know WHY.
I own guns. Three to be exact, a .45 1911, a 12 ga., and a 30.06 semi-auto. I don't have a problem with guns. I do have a problem with bullets. This guy had a .223 assault rife, he had a 100 round drum mag. Nobody needs 100 rounds. That guy in Arizona, that shot that congress woman, had 30 round mags. for his glocks. I know guns don't kill people, but the bullets certainly do. The NRA should start as soon as they can try to stop the use of these huge mags., they should help enact laws that prevent people from buying these extra large mags. I live in Hawaii, for my .45 I can only get 8 round clips. This works for me. I know the NRA's answer will be to have more people have more guns and carry them public. So when something like happens next time, we can have a real gun fight. Just like in these violent video games. We live in very violent country. It's seems almost to be our national pastime. Right now someone is thinking about a copy cat action after what happen in Colo. We Maybe can't stop the next person from a killing spree, but we could, at least, restrict the number of bullets he can't shoot at one time.
Most gun owners just shoot paper targets, the same way people shoot hoops, throw darts, or the like. Many hunt to help control animal populations and stock the freezer. Life on this planet is inherently dangerous. As long as the human condition is the way it is, utopia will never exist. Some people need to read/watch "I, Robot" and learn the point that Isaac Asimov was trying to get across.
A firearm is a tool. Your weapon is between your ears! And if guns kill people, mine are all defective.
That's right. Only the government and criminals, (sometimes synonymous), should be the only ones with access to "high capacity" mags.
NOT...
Cuong, Seentoomuch, et al.,
I agree that this lunatic was heavily armored as well as armed but you folks claiming that an individual with a concealed carry pistol would have had no chance continues to ignore the reality of the person initiating the attack. The perpetrator, like all shooters was a coward. He specifically chose a group that would likely be merely prey. They were mostly young people and thus NOT armed in a midnight showing of a premier comic book movie.
Although with multiple body armor pieces on he did NOT have some kind of epic shoot-out with police. What he did was SURRENDER at the first sign of armed resistance. He was/is a coward, not some superhuman or DELTA force special forces operative. The reality is, as was proved just two days prior in Florida by a SENIOR CITIZEN with a concealed carry pistol. When the criminal is confronted not with cowering prey but with a citizen firing rounds they run with their tails between their legs.
@ scotlee09
I guess you will feel much safer now sitting next to someone and see a gun under their shirt during movie, right?
So this is not considered an act of terrorism? Really? We have been bombarded with that annoying little word "terrorism" ever since 9/11. Since then, our civil rights and privacy have been demolished all in the name of "Homeland Security". With RFID and GPS tracking, surveillance cameras becoming ubiquitous, biometric scanning, face and voice recognition technologies, TSA with their invasive backscatter x-ray machines, etc. all put in place to protect us from the "Terrorists". Still many people are unfamiliar with 2012 NDAA which basically did away with your civil liberties and made due process obsolete. But I digress. The point is that the government is creating a Big Brother paradigm in which the people of the U.S. are looked at as potential criminals needing to be constantly monitored for their own good all under the guise of "Terrorism". The war on terror is about as useless as the war on drugs- a war that cannot be won. But what an excellent catalyst to put the whole world under surveillance. Then we can distort the truth, create our own corrupt laws, manipulate the masses, and change the definitions of words (NEWSPEAK) all to coincide with the corrupt ideology that your government knows what is best for you. Thus, when I see a story such as this, it makes me cringe. Not just because many innocent people were killed or wounded by the hand of some jackass , but how the media will now exploit this and how the ramifications of this event are going to alter our future. Expect new security measures to be put in place, such as metal detectors in movie theatres or... let's just take away your 4th amendment rights altogether. All the pawns are in place and the game is set. The news made it quite evident of what weapons were involved, and just how easily accessible those weapons were to the gunman. So let's be clear- James Holmes is a "terrorist". Regardless of whether his actions were politically or religiously motivated or not, he instilled "terror" and fear into the community. Not only that- he created a new reason and motivation for the people in power to further increase their security measures and create a more fascist police nation where people live in fear instead of freedom. What better way of monopolizing the effect of this horrific act by executing it at the midnight premiere of "The Dark Knight Rises" making it even more sensationalized and newsworthy, to coincide with the movie's dark themes and really reach a mass audience.
My thoughts and prayers go out to those who affected by this senseless act of terror.
"Hey Honey, are you ready to go to the movie?" "Uh, sure Sweetheart, just give me a minute to stap my weapon on, then we'll be ready to go." - Really??? - It seems gun laws and politics have little to do with this.
Now imagine that 50 CWP holders were in the theater, and un-holstered their guns, half of them barely trained at shooting targets, adrenalin, cortisol (and alcohol) rushing through their veins, . . . . Sounds like chaos in the slaughterhouse.
Perhaps instead of debating the regulation of guns, bricks and other weaponry; and, what we think we might of done if just one or half of everyone there was packing a pistol, learn what we can do to spot security issues and fix them; or maybe identify people losing control and maybe try to help them, at least you may learn something that could be helpful.
It seems none of these comments show anything helpful for the victims or their loved ones and families (except kind prayers). They are most likely still awake - and won't be able to sleep for more than a couple hours per day - for months to come. Eat something? Forget it. Laugh? Not likely. Go to work? Uh, not really.
What can be done now to help them and guard against this happening again? Surely someone saw this guy walk out the fire exit. Why would anyone do something like that after buying a ticket? Perhaps to let his friends in without paying? That is a security breach. What could an unarmed person do about that? Lots!
Maybe reading about identifying threats and then coming here and teaching others could help stop a rampage somewhere in the future. I would recommend Gavin DeBecker's book, The Gift of Fear, as a great place to start. - I don't mean to criticize, it's just a suggestion.
Cuong:
I wouldn't think a second about it. I'm carrying and trained. Furthermore, I won't waste my time in a theater owned by Carmike. The truth is that 'gun-free' zones and establishments like Carmike theaters are magnets for the lunatics that do this sort of thing.
Why is it that no one claiming the futility of concealed carry has noted this fact?
@scotlee, so what is your solution? 30,000+ gun deaths per year is OK with you as long as you get to keep your guns? Shall we just continue in the direction we're headed and close our eyes and hope it'll all go away? What is it they say? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, but expecting different results. What we're doing right now is not working. It's time to stop being so stubborn and set in our ways. It's high time we began to re-think things. Americans have this adolescent idea that we're right and everyone else in the world is wrong. But, perhaps we don't know everything. Perhaps we could learn from countries like the UK. Perhaps we should consider the fact that they have been around much longer than we have and perhaps they are older and wiser.
Also, I find it so interesting that people call a gun a "tool". Tools usually serve some useful purpose. The "purpose" for guns is to kill people. That doesn't seem very "useful" to me at all.
@Moonwolf That's not the purpose of all guns. Just because you have never needed one doesn't make it any less of a tool. I don't own a jack hammer because I don't need one and despite my comments of support I don't own any guns because I don't need one. I live close enough to a store to get what I need, but I can tell you that when I was growing up if my Dad did not have his gun my family and I wouldn't have eaten and that wasn't some long time ago I'm in my 20s. Just because you live in an area where you don't need a gun that's fine. It's one tool you don't need, but somewhere someone else is depending on one to survive. I don't think anyone, but the Military and Law Enforcement need assault rifles with 100 round mags though. I honestly can't see a need.
I won't apologize for my dismay over yet another incident of senseless gun slaughter. Your attitude perpetuates rampant hostility, which is the precursor to all the gun violence in America. Be a real man and learn how to defend yourself with your bare hands.
Thank you for your excellent rebuttal to JQ, Old Timer. You said it much better than I could have.
WallStFatCat (#1.11)
While the wars may have had an impact on this deranged individuals actions, I would wager that the onslaught of violent and brutal video games and social media would be more of a culprit. Combine this with the dysfunctional anticipation so many get from a Hollywood remake of a comic book character, with its own graphic gore, and the influence is easy to see.
No doubt this murderer had issues to begin with and time will tell what they were. But we see our society barraged with violence, real and made up. Children are exposed to much more violence, murder and immorality today than ever before. The internet, with its unguarded access to porn of all types, to sexting and other social media venues, kids are taught that violence not only exists, it is virtually accepted.
We don't just have rampant murders in our cities and communities, we actually reward it by granting it "Murder Capitol of America" to the winner. Movies, while allegedly trying to minimize the effects of violence and murder, actually promote it by the bad guy using more and more violence to win. Video games romanticize theft in "Grand Theft Auto" and we wonder why car-jacking is so prevalent.
The elaborate planning of the Aurora theater murders and his booby trapping his apartment to the extent he has is most likely the result of social media means than the wars in the Middle East. As more and more parents use these vast social media functions as baby sitters our children are exposed to more and more violence. Combine that with the ever increasing population being treated, appropriately or not, for a myriad of psycho-social disorders and the results shouldn’t be surprising.
The ease with which anyone can obtain drugs, weapons and information today opens the door to more and more diabolic atrocities. No doubt this individual will be examined, tested and finally diagnosed only to be upstaged by the next horrific mass murderer. As much as society tries to breed conformity there will always be the delusional mind that escapes its control. To believe we can stop it is unfair. The best we can do is create the foundation for our society, life will do the rest.
Tyler:
You're suspending two people for "smearing" males and Muslims, respectively, yet there are many people on these boards that REGULARLY smear Christians and Christianity in general, but they do not get in trouble with the moderators. Double standard regarding smearing of a religion??
Same goes for the personal attacks. Frequently the same people smearing Christians engage in a personal attack within the same post. Yet the moderators generally do nothing.
Finally - WHO determines which comments are "highly rated"? Numerous comments just on this thread tagged as "highly rated" consisted of hate speech and other items of no value that were flagged by the community and collapsed---WHY were these comments marked as "highly rated" at all???
aggrevatedofficeworker and Dan M:
You know guys, both of your arguments are so full of holes that it isn't even funny. Surely there are a fair number of fatal stabbings in the UK every year. A whole 252 stabbings in England and Wales in 2009, which was the #1 cause of murder there that year. Compare that to almost 2,000 murders in California in 2009??? In fact:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/21/murders-drop-home-office-figures
Total Population in just England and Wales, 2009: 55.2 million
Total Murders in England and Wales, 2009: 651 Of which 252 were the result of a stabbing, the #1 method of murder in England and Wales.
Murder rate per 100,000 population, England and Wales, 2009: 1.179
Handgun and assault weapon ownership severely restricted, legitimate hunting weapons legal.
Largest city, population, England and Wales: London: 8.3 million
(Total London, UK urban area population, 2009, 12.6 million)
England and Wales, 10 cities over 330,000 population, 5 cities over 443,000 population
England and Wales physical size, square miles: 58, 355
England and Wales population density: 946 per square miles average
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html
Total Population in California, 2010 (Census): 37.25 million (67.5% of England and Wales)
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/cacrime.htm
Total Murders in California, 2009: 1,972
Murder rate per 100,000 population, California, 2009: 5.293
Handgun, assault weapon, and hunting weapons legal and unrestricted.
Largest city, California, population: Los Angeles, 3.8 million
(Total Los Angeles urban area population, 2010, 12.9 million)
California, 10 cities over 325,000 population, 5 cities over 510,000 population
California physical size, square miles, 163,695
California population density: 227 per square mile
Any more arguing that you guys want to participate in as to whether guns kill people or not? So England and Wales together, just the southern UK, is roughly 1/3rd the physical square area of California, yet it has almost 50% more population, so the population density of England and Wales is roughly four times that of California. Otherwise the urban populations are roughly similar.
Anyone care to speculate as to why the population density of England and Wales is four times that of California yet the murder rate per 100,000 population is only 22% that of California???
Oh, that's right, I almost forgot! The ownership of handguns and assault weapons in England and Wales are limited to law enforcement and occasionally on a case-by-case basis a single handgun permit is issued to certain very wealthy persons or to persons responsible for lots of money or jewels.
Imagine how many rounds this theater nutjob could have gotten off with a single revolver and a speed-loader, or should speed-loaders be illegal too??? Why should a first-time gun buyer legally be able to buy 4 guns within a single month, on top of 50,000 rounds of ammunition too. Why isn't there any central database which would have red-flagged this guy, or any kind of law limiting purchases of guns and ammunition, let alone tactical body armor and gas masks?
What is the number one reason that this guy was able to shoot 70 people in a matter of seconds?
The National Rifle Association and their undying support of legal gun ownership in the US at any and all costs is the number one reason that this theater massacre occurred.
Which country suffered the most number of civilian casualties in World War II, the US or the UK? So why do we need our guns so badly?
Jim Spence:
Actually Jim, our sheer number of murders in the US was a lot higher than it is today back in the late 1970s through the early 1990s, before the advent of internet-based multiple-player violent video games.
One more crazy statistic: Sheer number of murders per 10 years using 2009 average:
California: 19,720
England and Wales: - 6,510
10-year difference: 13,210
(Extra murders every 10 years because of legal handgun and assault weapon ownership in California and no restrictions on purchases or training requirements, over the same 10-year measurement in England and Wales).
Yeah, I know, at least you NRA types feel safer even though 13,210 more people get killed your way every 10 years, just in California alone. Legal handgun and assault weapon ownership doesn’t make me feel any safer, knowing that my chance of getting murdered is 4 & 1/2 times as great here as it is in England and Wales combined, nor does that fact make me want to rush right out and load-up and blow anyone away I perceive a personal threat either.
There has to be a better way to protect ourselves that causes far less violent death!
If this murderer had no guns he could have easily poured a gallon of gasoline in the theater door and tossed a couple of molotov cocktails in there, killing more than 12 people.
What do you want to do about that possibility, ban gasoline?
If all guns are outlawed only the criminals would have guns and no one would be able to defend themselves.
Moonwolf:
you would be absolutely right if we were indeed continuing to do the same thing and it was yielding the same results year after year. Indeed up until the 90's that was the case. Law abiding citizens were generally had no means by which to carry a concealed pistol for their protection in most states. That situation has been changing however and contrary to the screaming about gunfights over traffic accidents by the prohibition crowd, the fact has been that violent crime has been dropping for years now. Why has that not been admitted by those of your ideological bent? It seems more than a little dishonest to shout about the endless blood in the streets and likely skyrocketing violent crime rates prior to enactment of 'shall issue' CCP laws but when the violent crime rates drop afterwards, as they have in every single instance, you seem incapable of questioning your previous stance.
Do we still have incidents like this one that are tragic and sick? Yes, as long as there is an individual willing to plan an attack in a way that minimizes his risk by sticking to 'gun-free' establishments it will occur. It will occur, irrespective of restrictions on legal ownership because someone willing to murder is hardly going to be deterred by a law that says he or she shouldn't own a firearm.
You point to England? I suppose if you really believe that US citizens would be willing to accept unfettered police power to include near total surveillance and ability to hold a suspect without charges for days, no Miranda rights, etc. Well let me switch that and point to Switzerland if mere ownership of firearms is the issue...heck let me throw in Israel as well. Both countries have near universal firearm ownership(actual fully automatic military weapons no less, not the look-alikes sold in this country), both make England's society and laws appear to be from a veritable teenager by comparison and both have an extremely low occurance of 'gun' violence. Whats interesting, and also never mentioned by your side is the proven deterrent value of civilian firearm ownership particularly in Israel. If honest research was conducted, one would become well acquainted with the fact that when attacks on civilians really began to heat up by the palestinians decades ago, the attempts were primarily with automatic weapons. In some cases this included actual machine guns. The result was pathetically poor. It was so poor in fact that the powers that be within the PLO and other terrorist groups moved almost entirely to the suicide/homicide bomber model. What was happening is that typically these dogs were being shot down by Israeli citizens carrying pistols before they could barely begin their attacks.
Now I understand that the impression is that something must change, but I would argue that the changes have more to do with the value of shame in society and morality than it has to do with an inanimate object. A paint brush never created an artist. A bicycle never created a Tour de France champion and a firearm never created a murderer. That idea is absurd by its very nature. The desire for any of those things must exist within the mind of the individual.
My desire is to live a good life and enjoy family and health. In so doing, I know it is MY responsibility to keep family and self safe. The police have neither the ability nor are even constitutionally liable for the safety of the individual. So I will be responsible for that safety and even that of my community if the need were ever to arise.
oldtimer why pick the state with the highest# of gangs. give us the stats on how many of those killed in cali were illegals, drug dealers, gang bangers. also tell us how strict gun laws are there hasnt seemed to help them much
Old timer:
why is it that England is always the choice of comparisons I wonder?
Why do those who want to point to firearm ownership as 'the problem' with the US never investigate Switzerland where owning a fully automatic military rifle and ammo is MANDATORY for military aged men?
Why is it that the England comparison is always so pathetically simplistic? Why is it limited to only gun ownership comparisons? Is it possibly because England has NO Miranda rights? Is it because one can be held in jail with NO charges for an extended period of time? Is it because there is NO privacy and surveillance is near-universal? Does it have any thing to do with the fact that the median age is about 5 years older than in California? Does it have anything to do the fact that the population of England is OVERWHELMINGLY from one ethnicity? Nearly 90% of the population is white, the next nearest ethnic group is less than 3%(Asians, listed as Indians) of the total, thus nearly a homogeneous group.
How about a little more of the demographic story if you are wanting to make comparisons?
What is the purpose of a semi-automatic assault rifle ?
salvia that would be incase someone assaults you.
Please stop showing this losers face all of the time. Do not give him the 15 minutes or so of fame he does not deserve. Please concentrate on the innocent victims in all of the this the dead, wounded and their friends and families they are the ones we need to concentrate on not the monster behind the gun!!!!!!!
Salvia:
a semi-automatic 'assault rifle' is an oxymoron. An assault rifle, by definition, is capable of selective fire. This means with each depression of the trigger multiple rounds will be fired.
As such, a 'semi-automatic assault rifle' is:
1) an indication of the ignorance of the news reporter talking about it and
2) nothing more than an ugly (black plastic stocks) semi-auto. It functions no different than a Remington 7400, which has been a popular large game hunting rifle for almost half a century.
@scotlee09: So, now you're saying that we should follow the policies of Israel? I'm sorry, but the last place I want to live in is Israel, or anything like it!
As to your comments about England having "unfettered police power", I actually have heard that they are much more lax on crime than we are. For example, someone could get 50 years here, but only get 20 years over there. So, I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but you're saying things that are the opposite of what I've read and heard. Old Timer might be able to provide more insight than I have on this.
Also, I would think that 6,000 murders per year in England vs. 30,000+ murders per year here in the United States must mean that England is doing something right.
And, if 30,000+ murders per year is better than it was and that makes it somehow acceptable, that is a sad state of affairs indeed.
Roughly similar demographics is one reason to compare the southern UK against California, another is that the southern UK only allows legitimate hunting weapons and all other guns are severely restricted, versus California where all firearms are legal except automatic weapons, without an purchase limit nor training requirement, which was one of the major points of my original post.
Why shouldn't I use Germany or Spain instead of the southern UK, since the murder rates in those two countries are roughly 2/3rds of the murder rate in the southern UK? Or how about Australia or Chile, the two countries immediately above and below the southern UK in terms of murder rates? Also note that the entire US has a murder rate per 100,000 population (4.9) only slightly less than California has too (5.29). Please again note that I am not opposed at all to the legal ownership of legitimate hunting weapons either.
Every single time that anyone suggests a more-rational and far less fatal future for America, every gun nut out there has to come out and start spouting-off every NRA patented phrase for the last 50 years. How many times has anyone opposed to legal handguns here heard "If all guns are outlawed only the criminals would have guns and no one would be able to defend themselves," when there are all kinds of non-lethal personal protection weapons available today? Why is killing or grievously wounding someone else the only method of personal protection that the NRA approves of? My God, guns are the most-dangerous invention in the history of our planet, and have killed hundreds of millions of people, most of them innocent. There is virtually no defense for their legal ownership, except for sport. What, historical value or "that's the way that our ancestors settled their differences"???
I will also remind anyone who cares that the American cities with the highest numbers of gang members are NYC and Chicago, and I will also remind anyone who thinks otherwise that Israel has been in a perpetual state of war since 1947, and Israel was the original aggressor that drove the Palestinians by military force off of land that some of them had owned for over 1000 years, and Israel is also the country where their treatment of their Palestinian population today is worse than our own treatment of our African American population was before Word War II, which is certainly nothing to be proud of in my opinion either. Israel's murder rate per 100,000 population is close to double the same rate in the UK, triple the same rate in either Germany or Spain, and about 7 times of what the murder rate is in Japan too.
Thailand is the country closest in murder rate to the US, with Uruguay and Haiti not far above us. Even Bolivia's murder rate is not double ours. India is relatively close to us, but only has a murder rate 2/3rds of ours, despite several extremely large cities that make LA look like Tulsa, numerous warring political, ethnic, and religious factions, their class structure, and outdated practices such as marriage dowry killings still in vogue too. How about Bangladesh, which has a murder rate half of ours too, despite overwhelming poverty and extremely high-density slums that house over 100 million people?
How about a highly-advanced African country like Morocco, which has a murder rate less than 29% of ours, despite Casablanca having a population similar in size to the LA city limits, 5 cities of over 650,000 people, 10 cities over 350,000 people, and 30 cities of over 100,000 people, with multiple ethnic groups, feuding nomads, and multiple religious factions too?
I'll agree that Switzerland has a very low murder rate, but its largest city is only roughly the size of Cleveland, OH, its 2nd-largest city is only the size of Louisville, KY, and its 5th-largest city isn't as big as Rockford. IL. Switzerland is much lower density than most of the US is, and also militarily neutral too. However, even though Switzerland is neutral, every adult male has to have a military firearm because every adult male up to age 50 is subject to being called-up to active duty and they are expected to be proficient with their weapon too.
All adult male citizens of Switzerland are drafted into their military at age 18 too, though only about 2/3rds are subsequently deemed fit for service and sent through boot camp. Are you saying that we need to reinstate the military draft here and make every man aged 18-50 eligible to be called-up on a moment's notice in order to reduce gun violence? Swiss troops do serve worldwide as peacekeepers. Do you think that all young men in the US would be willing to reinstate the draft here, or do you NRA supporter types even care what happens to them either, just as long as you get to keep our murder rate 6 times what it is in Germany or Spain, or even 3 & 1/2 times of what it is in Morocco?
Why can't we move forward beyond guns toward a much less-violent future where far less be will kill and be killed, and where we might not need to have the world's highest incarceration rate too? Right now our prison budget in America is similar to what our military budget was 20 years ago. How will we turn that fact around, or, who cares, as long as I get to keep my guns?
Moonwolf:
sorry try again. You heard? As unimpeachable as a source as that is, I'd recommend 'The Mountie, the Samurai and the Cowboy' by David Kopel I believe. Agree or disagree with the text but the sources cited are as extensive as anything you'll read. As far as sentencing...I'm not quite sure how that supports your claim that they are more lax on crime. Do a little research as far as civil rights go and, based on the naivete of those comments, you are going to be surprised.
Further your comment regarding their murder stats in the United Kingdom are misleading at best. First read my comments above to another poster, or better yet check the data out yourself regarding demographics. You are making claims based on one set of data. As a social scientist you'd never be published with that weak of a causality link.
As far as Israel goes, your rant with no objective reasoning behind it notwithstanding, I stand behind my statement. How many violent crimes are committed with guns there compared to here...even with terrorists getting through their border on a daily basis?
I notice you had nothing to say about Switzerland. Why is that? Some quick calculations based on their total homicide numbers for the last year counted (2009) and then multiplying them up in order to equal the United Kingdom's overall population (not just England-lets learn to define our terms) and its nearly identical...WITH universal ASSAULT RIFLE possession by all able bodies military aged males. Handgun ownership is likewise encouraged to say the least and yet a LOW homicide annual total, as well as other violent crimes.
I've also noted that you've chosen to ignore other nations that have a strict gun control...like Jamaica and Mexico. Why is that?
Lastly, if gun ownership in and of itself was a cause of violent crime in this country, why is it that the number of guns owned, and the number of CCP holders has continuously risen and yet the violent crime rate keeps going down?
Let me ask you this question about Israel: Are the murders of their Palestinian population inside either the West Bank or Gaza, both occupied militarily by Israel, counted in Israel's murder statistics?
The answer is no, they are not, which means that Israel's murder rate statistics are fraudulent too!
Not just England and Wales, (obviously you didn't read my sources). Sure, the UK includes Scotland, Northern Ireland, and numerous close-by minor island possessions too, but the stats that I used only concerned England and Wales, and did not include Scotland, Northern Ireland, (which has a higher murder rate than does the southern UK), nor did I include their small island possessions offshore either. It doesn't matter, as the all-UK murder rate is very close to the one in the southern UK too.
I am not a social scientist either, I was a semi driver for 30 years, and I do have a senior-level education in urban planning too, I am a licensed Private Pilot too, and I am also licensed to operate yachts up to 40 feet in length in the waters of the State of Michigan too. Any other questions?
Violent crime keeps going down because of our own demographics. The Baby Boomers, of which there was a great surplus of, in an era with a far lower police presence, did suffer from a very high violent crime rate during their teen years into their 30s. We have to remember the depth of the national alcohol and illegal drug problem that so many Baby Boomers suffered from, as well as the anti-Vietnam War movement and the counter-culture movement too, punctuated by the 1979-1983 double-dip recession in which young people of that era were hit the hardest too. Our large inner-city ghettos were also very violent places in the 1970s and 1980s too, especially as crack cocaine burst onto the scene, and major advances in medical technology since the 1980s has also reduced the murder rate because our medical community is now able to save more gunshot victims than it once was able to also.
The numbers of violent crimes since have dropped mainly because there are far less young people than there were during the Baby Boomer generation, and there is a far-stronger police presence too. Your whole notion that concealed carry is somehow responsible for a lowering of the crime rate is a false assumption, because in the 1960s and 1970s around Detroit, the rate of adult males carrying concealed firearms within the city limits was very high, and yet Detroit had a 3rd-world murder rate all during the 1970s too.
The suburb of Denver that I live in now has a very low crime rate, despite a population of more than 50,000 people, and is that because this entire County only has 190 concealed carry permit holders, or is it because of our 2-minute police response time and our resident economic demographics, which is well above Denver on annual per-capita income? Even so, just two weeks ago, our police gunned-down a distraught young man who had just lost his job and was carrying a pellet gun, even though they had been warned about the man with the pellet gun before they found him, and, every officer with the department here carries a Tazer too. Was that murder "justified"? Hardly!
That's my whole point. Having a gun in your possession means that the likelihood of someone getting wounded or killed is a whole bunch higher than it is if you were carrying a Tazer or a can of wasp repellant or Mace instead, and my own very strong feeling is that the era of needing a gun to defend oneself is an era long gone by in an advanced society where the lives our our citizens mean more to us than do our alleged right to shoot to kill if we feel threatened.
oldtimer how many guns did tim mcvey use in oklahoma city? how about ted bundy ted kazinski charles manson. the guy from chicago grady the green river killerim sure i missed a h whole bunch of other nutjobs dahlmer!
Oldtimer:
sorry the research doesn't support you. Quite simply you are wrong. Although, John Lott's research was maligned because of a libelous claim regarding his background, the unfortunate thing for your position is that its findings have been replicated in several other national, county and city-wide peer refereed studies-the most extensive ever published. Unfortunately for you they've all either found a direct correlation to a significant drop in violent crime or, in the case of a couple of the loudest detractors, no negative results from the increase in concealed carry.
Furthermore, the research is in regarding your likelihood of being injured as a result of resisting a crime and that also clearly indicates your positions silliness. The bad thing for your position, is that this peer reviewed research by Dr. Gary Kleck, initially of Florada State University was initially published over two decades ago and the data has been updated several times since. Sorry but tazers, mace, pepper spray and even just submitting and hoping for the best are far MORE likely to result in injury than the use of a firearm. In fact the best estimates from the research indicated that more than 1 million defensive usages of firearms annually involved little more than the intended victim brandishing the weapon, which would lead on to think that it was in fact safer on average for both the intended victim AND the criminal...and also gave the criminal an opportunity to rethink his/her career of choice.
As far as the comments regarding my point of Switzerland, nice attempt at deflection/redirection. The fact is that the overly simplistic argument made by you and several others thus far has been based on some believed correlation of numbers of firearms available to the crime rate. When presented with the evidence that near universal ownership of ACTUAL assault rifles (not the phony category of 'semi-automatic assault weapons' that has been created by those in favor of increased restriction) you change the argument to some absurd point regarding the comparative size of Swiss cities. Well, which is it? The ratio of guns to citizens or the size of the cities that matter?
Whenever the arguments presented by you, moonbeam et al., have been rebutted or countered you simply change the angle of attack. The reality is that violent crime IS dropping due in large part to a correlating increase in concealed carry holders. The research supporting this assertion has existed for nearly two decades now and has YET to be proven false by opposing research by anyone on your side. In addition that research has been backed up by multiple other peer reviewed studies.
At the very heart of the issue is the fact-which you and so many others can't seem to understand or accept-that criminals, by their very existence are COWARDS. When the victim no longer is in a position of weakness they back down. That is precisely why concealed carry laws work and will continue to work.
Sure. In Detroit in the 1970s close to 25% of all men aged 16 to 60 were armed on the street and the murder rate was five times what California's is now, but you are saying that it would have been 25 times that if nobody had carried guns illegally? You NRA guys just amaze me, you totally ignore hard evidence, and your hardline stance is totally responsible for 50,000 or more extra deaths just in the US in the past 10 years, and many of those victims were innocent too.
Your argument about concealed carry permits is wrong, plain and simple, since it was much more common to carry illegally years ago when the murder rate was much higher than it is today.
It took me a whole 15 minutes to do all of the research that I did today, which you still have not answered at all, you have only tried to steer the argument toward your NRA talking points instead.
Indeed, an armed homeowner is 5 times more likely to get killed in a break-in or home invasion than a non-armed homeowner is? Why is that?
Since most crime that happens in the US happens in higher-density cities, it has a great deal of bearing what the demographics of Switzerland are in relation to the US and its crime problems. Except for a very few medium-sized cities, Switzerland is mostly rural or small towns. Why not answer my fact about Switzerland and its compulsory military draft, and try to compare that to the US too?
I haven't changed my angle of attack at all since my first post on this subject. Why should we continue to allow the legal ownership of an ancient personal protection weapon that the sole purpose of is to kill or wound people when there are plenty of viable non-lethal alternatives? Why should it be legal for a first-time gun owner to buy 4 weapons including an assault rifle, 50,000 rounds of ammo, and full police tactical gear in less than 2 months, without any proof of training? His purchase actions should have caused alarm bells to go off all the way to both coasts.
Why does anyone think that 50,000 non-necessary extra deaths every 10 years, hundreds of thousands of ER visits, and an out-of-control growth in our prison population is justified just to continue handgun and assault rifle ownership in the US, when almost every first and 2nd-world nation besides the US has lowered their gun death rate immensely saving many thousands of lives by outlawing or severely restricting handgun and assault rifle ownership?
I didn't even mention the proliferation of security video all over the US too, which might be one of the strongest reasons why crime rates are falling too, since before 1982 or so, security video was nearly unheard of except at banks.
Why not try to twist the facts regarding Germany, Spain, India, or Morocco? Because you know that you can't possibly justify a US murder rate six times what German or Spanish residents are exposed to? The Wild Wild West is long over with, so why do we need to act like it isn't? Just so that you NRA types can continue to act all macho? Perhaps you guys could use some assertiveness training that doesn't include having to own a gun to feel powerful?
WHY IS THIS MAN STILL ALIVE??? THESE KILLERS DO NOT CARE ABOUT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
Thank you, Old Timer, for bringing some logic and facts to this conversation.
According to my research, our gun homicide rate is 40x higher than that of England! 40x! And yet, there are those who would rather put their heads in the sand and pretend that there is no problem - and contend that we should look to nations like Israel, rather than England, for gun policies! (Probably the same people who would rather pretend we don't have healthcare issues that, once again, could be resolved if we were smart enough to look to other countries who have been around a lot longer.) There comes a point when we, as a nation, need to realize that the same-old, same-old isn't working and that it may be time to try something new - or, maybe even something old that has worked so well for other countries.
moonwolf does this mean we also have 40 times the amount of nut cases. im thinking need to look at mental healthcare issues
Hmmmmm, interesting discussion in these last few posts. I noticed England has been used as a comparison to California for demographics, but you can't just spout out some numbers and try to make a correlation. There are many other factors in crime, such as social, economic, etc. Most European nations do not have a small handgun ban/restrictions, nor an all out gun ban/restrictions, yet they have significantly lower crime rates than the US. However there are countries like Russia which had a complete gun ban and has one of the highest murder rates in the world.
In a paper by Don B. Kates an American Criminologist and Constitutional Lawyer and Gary Mauser a Canadian Criminologist and a professor in B.C., they go into this very issue many of you are discussing. (especially Oldtimer, Moonwolf99 and Scotle09) This is from that paper titled, Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
In the Table it shows Russia as of 2002 with a gun ownership rate of 4000 out of 100,000, with a murder rate of 20.54. In 2002 the average population was 145,306,000. Luxembourg as of 2002 had a 0 handgun ownership but yet had a murder rate of 9.01. Hungary had a gun ownership of 2,000 per 100,000 in 2003, with a murder rate of 2.22. Finland had a gun ownership rate of 39,000 per 100,000 in 2004, with a 1.98 murder rate. As of 2003 Switzerland had a gun ownership rate of 16,000 per 100,000, with a murder rate of 0.99. Germany as of 2003 had a gun ownership rate of 30,000 per 100,000, with a murder rate of 0.93. Norway in 2001 had gun ownership rate of 36,000 per 100,000, and a murder rate of 0.81. The lowest murder rate was Austria; it had a gun ownership rate of 17,000 per 100,000 in 2002 with a murder rate of 0.80.
There's a few more European nations in the table, but you get the idea. More guns per capita has no bearing on the murder rate. The paper goes on to say,
This is from a PDF but this link should take you to where you can open it.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=us%20cities%20with%20most%20gun%20related%20murders&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CF8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.harvard.edu%2Fstudents%2Forgs%2Fjlpp%2FVol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf&ei=cjUMUI3HFcTn0QGBx6CMBA&usg=AFQjCNGEpT4LHNfY-pcjefcrgGnZLbX1Bg
Now according to a Geneva study there's 270 million guns in America, that's almost 90,000 per 100,000. This obviously means many citizens have multiple guns. Not sure if this is just legal or both legal and illegal guns. According to the CDC the US average rate of death by firearm is 10.6. However this includes suicide and accidental deaths, not just homicide. Suicide counts for more than double the amount of deaths by firearm, than murder. So to compare with the countries mentioned in the paper above, the US has 90,000 guns per 100,000 and an overall murder rate, as of 2010, of 4.8. To compare with 2002 numbers, I don't know the gun ownership ratio of back then, but the murder rate in 2002 was 5.6. The murder rate by guns is lower than that, probably about 2.8-3.5. I've noticed more anti-gun advocates lump all firearm deaths when trying to make a correlation between the number of firearms in the US and violence.
Here's the various websites I got that information.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/global/110110/small-arms-weapons-gun-laws-us-loughner-giffords-arizona
You can go here for more stats from the 90's
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=55
Facts will always trump feelings...
Gun Facts 6.1
OldTimer, I'm from California, and my dad is an ex cop. So I looked into it. According to the Brady Campaign, California has the strictest gun laws. You are correct that Cali does not require safety training. However, I do not think safety training is a big deterrent to homicide. If anything, it might make the offender feel more confident.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Photo-Galleries/Lists/States-with-the-strictest-gun-laws/%28photo%29/259376
An article from the Christian Science Monitor on the top 10 states with the strictest gun regulations. Out of the top 10 only 4 required safety training. Personally, I think all fire arm buyers should have to take a course on safety. You have to take classes and pass a test in order to get your hunting license in California. To me it makes sense, you own a gun, you better know how to use it. I'm not a big advocate of conceal carry. You have a weapon, I want to know it's on you.
I also looked up your claim that New York and Chicago have the most gangs. This is not true. I didn't think this was true, since I grew up(my earlier years) in L.A.. California has more cities with high gang violence than any other state. However Chicago is up there, even more so that New York.
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/01/5-us-cities-worst-gang-violence/1095/
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/managing-your-healthcare/articles/2012/01/26/gang-murders-taking-toll-on-young-males-cdc
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment/
Now that it from the FBI.
This is another PDF
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=majority%20of%20california%20murders%20gang%20related&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFsQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.calgrip.ca.gov%2Fdocuments%2FHomicide_CA_1981_2008_Tita.pdf&ei=85IMUMDGHOXj0QGy89nmAw&usg=AFQjCNHerprR8lyR2OC5WaNeAVla2JhgBA
The absolute truth of the matter is, gun ownership has gone up in America, yet murder and crimes have gone down. That I find an interesting correlation.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/27/gallup-self-reported-gun-ownership-rises-especially-among-women-dems/#ixzz21P0x6UQc
In 2010 the total crime rate per 100,000 was 3,345.5 it's dropped since 1993 when the overall crime rate was 5,484.4. In 1993 the murder rate was 9.5, as of 2010 it was 4.8. Almost a 5 percent decrease. However in the 80's through the early 90's gun ownership went up and crime went up as well. So gun ownership has steadily increased, but crimes increased and then subsequently decreased. I think there's a lot more to the question of what is happening in America. and gun bans nor increased gun ownership do not seem to matter when it comes to the rise and fall of crime. All I do know is that whenever a government throughout history has wanted to control it's people, the first thing it's done is take away the people's ability to defend themselves. If there were ever a need for American's to have a lot of ammunition and powerful arms, it's to be in defense of not just one's personal safety, but that of their country.3,345.53,345.5
Yes, our population is 100,000,000 larger than it was in 1970 also, and like I previously said, security video was virtually unheard of 40 years ago too. Anyone besides me remember those bank snapshot machines that banks took photos of their customers with at the teller windows, the forerunner of security video? I remember in 1982 when the owners of Detroit's Northland Mall, one of the oldest malls in the city, first installed security video, in fact in the first week with a limited number of cameras they managed to catch over 100 shoplifters and more than two dozen cars thieves too. Today it is fairly difficult in most large urban areas to be outside anywhere in a commercial area and not be on at least one security camera.
You are correct that Mexican gangs in southern California have been more-violent than NYC gangs have been, though NYC has a near total handgun ban too. Oklahoma City isn't large-enough to rate a large-city gang problem despite the number of gang homicide deaths there per capita. I'm sure if we looked hard enough, we could find some small town that had suffered a higher gang gun murder rate per capita than Oklahoma City or LA. Why don't we just limit this discussion to America's 20 largest cities, since that is where the majority of the problem is?
Yes, Russia has a murder rate 5 times our own, or about the same as what Detroit experienced in the 1970s and 1980s, but like I previously pointed-out, there are many far less advanced countries than the US with far lower murder rates, as well as a near total percentage of first-world countries too. Why does Columbia have such a high murder rate? Could it be because of their drug cartels fighting for market share, combined with their ongoing separatist jungle guerrilla war? They certainly have far more than their fair share of military weaponry in the hands of private citizens there, so your argument that more weapons ownership will cause a reduction in murder rates, when taken to an extreme, doesn't wash, just as a far-higher percentage of gun ownership in Detroit in the 1970s and 1980s than is the case today all over the US did not translate into a greatly-reduced murder rate in Detroit then either.
Why do so many of us have a need to hold life or death in their hands? Does it make you feel powerful? Does it make you feel superior to have the power to blow somebody away for an alleged crime which in all of the rest of the first world would only result in a short prison term? Most of the rest of the civilized world considers our addiction to lethal personal protection as well as the length of our prison sentences draconian and a major human rights violation. Isn't it way past time to move forward toward a much less-lethal future?
You mention our crime rates. Does mass easy handgun availability cause higher crime rates? My guess is that it most-likely does. About 10 years ago a group of other drivers and I were standing out in front of an inner-city wholesale fresh fish distributor in Detroit, about 1:00 AM, waiting for our chance to back-in and make our deliveries there, when an inner-city resident came running-up with a grocery bag in his hand, and asked us if we wanted to buy a handgun for $15.00. Sure-enough, there was a mid-caliber revolver in the bag, and one of the guy even took it out and held it, but then refused it, so the seller went running off into the night, after which the guy who had held it said that "it was still warm". Imagine than, being able to buy a warm gun on the street for $15.00???
That is what is wrong with America right now. We have too many guns, an ever-higher percentage of guns carry magazines capable of firing more than 6 shots without reloading, and we have absolutely no purchase restrictions or training requirements other than most felons being enjoined from legally buying or owning guns, but when you can buy a gun on the street for $15, who needs to legally buy a gun? Continuing to increase the availability and number of guns will only result in a continuing growth of a society where we fear each other more and more, and where we must resort to lethal violence much sooner than residents of more-civilized countries do.
I would far rather see my home country the kind of place where people could again walk on the street and greet each other without fear, a life like so many of us older Americans did once enjoy, than having to take ever greater and more-lethal steps to protect ever-less of my part of my country, while my paranoia of others festers unhindered too.
Maybe it's because I am the size of an NFL lineman, but I do not yet feel paranoid enough to want to carry a gun with me everywhere that I go just in case the chance arises to blow somebody away, or maybe it is because my political views are very liberal, and I am not in favor of allowing our citizens (and especially not our young people) to hold the power of life or death over others, and themselves, in the palm of their hands either.
Just think there you NRA supporters, the blood of 200,000 Americans is on your hands since 1970. Perhaps we should ask all of these kids in jail, some for the rest of their lives, because they thought that holding a gun in their hand would make them cool, or make them powerful, or increase their chances of defending themselves?
This is what I find so distasteful about conservative America: So many conservatives lack any empathy or compassion for their fellow man. Everything is about me, and my battle with and fear of everyone else, a battle which seems to include the right to blow your neighbor away because his stereo is too loud, or a right to fire blindly into the dark at kids in passing cars, or a right to fire at some luckless member of a different American ethnic group just because two centuries of official discriminatory policy toward members of that ethnic group officially ended less than 50 years ago. The entire conservative belief is seemingly self-centric, exclusionist, and fear-based, and gun ownership is a part of this belief, and the liberal belief is far more inclusive, far more tolerant, far friendlier, and far less lethal.
I just don't see any really good reason for the private ownership of handguns nor assault weapons, though my life is not based on fear of everyone else nor on a desire to be more-powerful than (or wealthier than) everyone else either.
OT - Sorry. Feelings, (which is most of what you are writing about) will NEVER trump Facts. Or history, for that matter.
No offense, but most of that IS nonsense. Numbers from "the dark side". Typical shortsightedness based on knee-jerk reactions rooted in unfounded fear. The gun control crowd can only cite from their own propaganda machine. The pro-American crowd, (yes, I meant that), cites from actual reports from actual sources. And it IS the Second Amendment that protects and keeps the First Amendment available to ALL. Keep n mind that it really wasn't that long ago when people walked down the streets without fear, and virtually everyone was carrying. Both open and concealed... Constitutionally, without a "permit".
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Bonus: The most honest three and a half minutes of television, EVER...
Here is a fact. The most horrific terrorist attacks on our country by both foreign and domestic terrorists were carried out with tools that were never meant to cause destruction: Airplanes and fertilizer. Guns had nothing to with it. If someone has enough hate or is crazy enough they will find a way to maim or kill no matter what they have access to.
I hope no one was killed...awaiting updates and searching for more detailed accounts
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/365147/20120720/aurora-dark-knight-rises-batman-colorado-shooting.htm
other reporting says 12 dead...at least 2 gunman and explosives were likely used...suspect in custody is Indian
I just looked at the Denver Post website and they don't even mention it.
I am kinda curious myself as to how a UK afiliate of Internatal Business Times had this level of detail...literally seconds after it was breaking news on NBC News
Simple: Do a twitter search, and post the first thing you find. Don't worry about accuracy or verifying your sources, just post every rumor up as fact as fast as you can so you can be first. If you're worried about being wrong, just preface it all with "somebody said".
Using my psychic ability I believe they will be identified as Muslims.
Go curl up in a ditch and die u freakin bigot.... Anyway God bless the families of those involved
Wow, Larry, you have no evidence for that whatsoever. There are a lot of other very plausible explanations (including one in particular I won't mention) but you just HAD to jump to conclusions, didn't you?
True Muslims are peaceful and although I do not know all the tenets they follow, I feel safe in saying that the ones who arm themselves or commit terrorist acts, are not true Muslims. To make a statement that suggests that Muslims are violent is a very knee-jerk reaction. Crazy murderers come in all colors, shapes and sizes.
I feel safe in saying your are completely wrong, Sandie. True Muslims are NOT peaceful. Remember 911? Keep on believing the propoganda though if it makes you feel good. Sad.
Mr Steady, I remember Timothy McVeigh, does that make true Americans NOT peaceful? But keep on believing the propoganda though if it makes you feel good. Sad.
Sandie 644591
Muslims are not peaceable, try reading the Koran sometime. Do you not know that their purpose is to take over the world, killing anyone who will not convert? Do you not know that they are told to smile at those who they hate and that it is okay to lie to non Muslims. Do you know they are infiltrating our government with the sole agenda to get us under sharia law. It is a mandate and they know how to throw around the word democracy to get Americans to stupidly help them. Talk to anyone who is no longer Muslim, and they will tell you, Islam is NOT peaceable, it is a lie they started and dumb people perpetuate it by stupidly repeating it. Don't believe me, research it yourself.
Come on, NoRightTurn, name me a peaceful country dominated by Muslims. We are talking about a political system that condones killing of all "infidels" that do not conform to their way of thinking. Last time I checked, America does not condone terrorism. But, like you said, simple solutions for simple minds.
Remember 911? Umm yes, and those people were not true Muslims but rather a certain sect, a breakaway group. Listen, Mr. I am no apologist for terrorists but YOU are the one who cannot get past the propaganda regarding Muslims. I also want to say that I do not consider myself as being particularly religious and, as such, do not follow any particular religion. I, like you, simply posted my point of view. I referred to MY experience with Muslims that I have personally known and with what I know, admittedly not that much, about Muslims who follow their teaching, which I believe is Islam. Have you personally met anyone who is Muslim? Had a conversation with a person who is a Muslim? I doubt it, from your beach blanket bigot comment! Pardon me, I was watching an old Frankie Avalon, Annette Funicello movie earlier. I could be wrong, but can you admit the same? And furthermore, If I am wrong, I would bet money that You Mr. are even more wrong than myself regarding Muslims. Completely wrong, my a$$!
Good post, fortyfive, but sadly some people will keep blindly believing a lie.
Who says the 911 terrorists were not true Muslims? You believe that, Sandie? Try reading the Koran as fortyfive suggested, Sandy. You admit that you know very little about Muslims and Islam but yet you emphatically declare that they are certainly peaceful. Sounds nice, doesn't it?
Nothing is gained by making the acts of one or the few, about the beliefs of the whole...If it turns out that this guy (or guys) are muslim...to do so is counter productive...because if you hope to stop the extremists, then you need the help of the moderates...not rocket science...It is hard to find the rotten apples, when you put all the apples in one basket
I'm still not convinced that this/these guy or guys aren't just homegrown "American" nut-cases
Back on topic, here. My sincere condolences to the families of the victims. Tragic.
My friend called me frantic because her son was there and has not heard back from him. The police in the press conference said 14 dead, at least 50 hurt.
It always is pretty pathetic that during a crisis where some people are really hurting, there are always idiots posting bad jokes.
95% of the worlds evils are done by men. Eliminate half of the men on earth and you'll have a better place; and much less dumb jokes in the comment section.
MY EXPERIENCE was not a lie. Believe what you want. I shall believe what I want and the world will keep right on spinning.
On the top of my head, Azerbaijan and Turkey. And as far as "peaceful" goes, you live in the least peaceful nation on Earth, with one of the highest murder rates in the world (superior to that of many of the Muslim countries you despise) and a record of invading many countries that didn't pose any threat.
And if you are going to judge Muslims by their holy book, perhaps you could try reading all the violent @!$%# in the Old Testament, and some Christian history to see how the Bible has been interpreted before the eighteenth-century Enlightenment. Fortunately, most Christians (just like Muslims) have rationalized those parts in order to make their religion harmless.
Anyhow, I fail to see why religion was even brought up in the comment section of a news article that has nothing to do with it. Perhaps those tin foil hats are a little too tight.
Mr. PheaNiques:
Reminds me of the BBC reporter talking about the collapse of WTC Bldg 7 while it was still standing.
youtube.com/watch?v=6mxFRigYD3s
The worst part of it all is that now you and I will be paying with our tax dollars to defend this nutbag, to prosecute him and to keep him safe and sound in prison. Oh, and dont forget that if he gets sick and ends up in the hospital we also pay for that. I say.......turn him over to the now destroyed familys that he created. Let it be eye for an eye. Come on America, enough is enough already !! And to all you bleeding hearts out there that will say i am wrong try working in a prison, I do. ;]
Larry-367607
Using my psychic ability I believe they will be identified as Muslims.
Using my common sense, I believe your pathetic!
Sandie
I don't mean to be rude, or upset you, but you just need to do the research. I'm sure you can meet nice Muslim individuals, especially the women and children. They are trapped, they will be killed if they leave their religion, peaceable religions do not kill their own children for having a mind of their own.
This is not the forum for this discussion, but you brought it up. So lets get back to the article at hand.
I personally was wondering why parents would take their small children to a theater at midnight anyway. Most kids would be too tired to enjoy it and most six year old's would have bad dreams after that kind of movie anyway. Too much violence from midnight until two in the morning. Well, these poor kids got a real dose of violence for sure. I hope the six yr old and all the others, will survive.
Mr. and forty five: Just try to remember that the catholics dominated central america killing massive amounts of indiginous people in the name of Jesus Christ. All religions and even nonreligions have their evils. I dare you to say christians are better than muslims. There are many different interperations of the Koran, peaceful and violent. As are with the bible. Do you identify with those who protest on the grounds of dead soldiers who believe that Gays are evil and thats why god allows soldiers to be killed in these anti-terrorist wars? I'd think you'd probably label them as radicals who dont share your true opinion, even if you do believe homosexuals as sinners, which i have a feeling you may. It is sad how America is so paranoid to quickly blaim what is probably a troubled soul to be a terrorist working for extremists outside the country. I'd rather live in a community of Muslims than have you as a neighbor. As for the lost injured and shaken soles of the Arora theatre, I pray that all injured and tramatized will once become well again.
We have had Muslims in our country for all 200+ years of our nation's history. When the attack came it was from without, not from within. Muslims here in America were just as horrified as those of every other race and religion. Many of them took up arms and joined our Armed Forces to go over there and fight the ones who killed innocents; to lump these soldiers in the same category as those who flew the planes into the towers disrespects their service and their sacrifice.
It's what you do that matters, not whose Name you do it in!!!!
That being said....my condolences to everyone affected, from the dead, to the wounded, to anyone who may be traumatized by this event and suffer physically or psychologically. May you all find peace after something this tragic.
I find it curious that people who insist their stereotypes and bigotry is fact will always implore someone to "do their research". I'm curious, fortyfive, where you've done your research. What are your sources and where do you get your information from?
I don't think body armor fits the muslim profile.
Common S,
No religion has the right to kill a people group, period. You obviously have not studied what Muslims truly believe, all of them, go look up what is happening in London and what they plan for American in the same way. They know how to take over without guns. The terrorists are not the only ones who want to take over, they are just the loudest, it's the silent ones that are spreading across the world, that will overtake us from within.
Truly sad story. Our Country has some real issues to deal with, the violence is disturbing. Chicago (a non travel destination for the time being) or New Orleans and some horrific events like this one in Aurora. Hopefully we reduce this senseless violence.
Muslim is a religion, for you unamericans that never understood the constitution, freedom of religion is a constitutional right in this country. How would you feel as an american for someone to come to your church and say you are all evil, you are all unamerican, you are all terrorists? People of this country have the right under the constitution to believe in any religion they choose to, they even have the right to believe in no religion if they so choose. It was the reason American was formed, to get away from the rigid rules of Europe. Maybe some of you need to go read your history and then go read your bibles. Because some of the stuff you say here doesnt make sense history wise and well some of the stuff you say could end you up in hell according to your bible.
I did not bring it up. I responded to Mr. what's his name. Get your facts straight, please.
"this act does not appear to be linked to radical terrorism or anything related to Islamic terrorism."
amazing how an act is defined by who does it. if a muslim did this they would call it terrorism. if its not a muslim, its not terrorism. by using that criteria, people get the idea that most terrorist acts are committed by muslims. according to the fbi, only 6% of terrorist acts and attempted terrorist acts in the US were committed by muslims in the past 10 years
amanda muslims took up arms? Yeah the Doctor in Texas took up arms and shot 31 or so people on the fort hood base--muslim piece of trash- those were our military folks gunned down by a muslim. they need to all get out, it's a cover up to do us harm
Indian? The kind with the dot on their forehead? Not a Native. Thanks to the whites 150 years ago they were just about wiped out, not full blooded-
After reading most of these comments I feel my time will be spent better else where.
Off topic politics and nonsense.
Debdem, have you ever heard of fundamentalist L.D.S. the government has stepped in and put pressures on their religiousbeliefs. The Koran spews hatred toward anybody that do not hold the same beliefs as them... Almost the same as the Rev. J. Wright and who sat and listened to his bigoted propaganda for years having their children indoctrinated with it?
to bad, but this is what the world is comming too. why dont everyone get a carry permit and carry a pistola. funny thing is it would not have helped a damm sole. you cant stop a lone wolf, you have to think like them in order to protect yourself, such is life.
@Seewhat I mean188, Ishmael is a Hebrew name. Not Islamic. And isn't necessarily an indicator of religion. But thanks for playing.
Perhaps, instead of blaming the right to bear arms, we should ask if this guy was using antidepressants. Violence is one of the side effects of those drugs and it says so in their rap sheet. I wonder how many of the people involved in mass murder, like this guy, were on medication and why those medications are legal.
I've heard an awful lot of people crying for the gunman's death to justify this tragedy.......don't you think that's how this guy's mind was working before he did this? Dostoevsky said it a long time ago, "To judge any society, first look at those in their prisons..." (paraphrased) I have long believed that for everyone found/convicted of a crime.....there's another 20 who've dodged the same justice. Evidently, this guy had "reached the end of his journey" in becoming a mass murderer.....some of the comments I've read here, tell me that others are on the same road.....
Prayers for the victims and their families.
Peaceable religions. There are none left! The christian cult is still among the most violent/deadly cults on the planet, along with the muslim cult.
Why are so many people on anti-depressant medication? Let's see... 8 loooong years of Dumbya Bush in the White House, and the Bush Recession. That has put millions into the poorhouse and caused a lot of depression.
Any other questions?
Wow! Just like the BuyBull and it's followers. They're not so different from christians after all!
If your cult god actually exists, and was worth even an ounce of rat-s#!t, maybe he'd have helped the victims out BEFOREhand, and kept them from being killed for simply going to see a movie... Your mindless hand-mumbling and BuyBull rituals will do no good after the fact. It never does...
To Momus2009...you can take comfort in that if he is a Muslim, Pres. Obama would not label him a terrorist. Do you recall that he would not label Hassan a terrorist, urging caution. During a ceremony honoring Dr. Medicine Crow, the Pres. mentioned the shootings in an off-handed way.
Is the atheist derail over yet? We understand that's the most important issue to you...can we move on now? I tend to agree...but is this really about religion?
It's bad enough we're debating gun rights, let alone now we're debating religion.
And to my fellow small govt pro-free market folks : can you shut up about Obama? Not every issue revolves around sociopath A (Obama) and sociopath B (Romney). For Pete's sake, can we NOT have one track minds on every single damn issue? You guys embarrass me sometimes.
There are Muslim soldiers in our Armed Forces who have served honorably and made the ultimate sacrifice for us. Your outright disrespect with this post cheapens their sacrifice and their honor. May you someday learn better. Even better, how about you join the military and see if what they believe makes an ounce of difference when he's defending your hinder-end from being shot by extremist who want to kill both of you?
What someone believes, what they call their God, or if they even have a God at all, makes no difference when life is on the line. If you were an emergency worker helping treat those in this movie theater, would you ask everyone coming out what religion they practiced and refuse to help someone (or push them back in)who said they were Muslim? Or would you just apply bandages, pick up wounded children, try to stop the bleeding and assist in rescue work in any way possible?
It's what you do that matters, not whose Name you do it in!!!!
Judging by the suspect's name, demographics of Aurora (88% white) and FBI crime statistics (95% of spree shooters in America are white males), he's most likely a white guy.
@ Michael- 412302, YA THINK?
iceman4444,
How 'bout you getting first in line of the 1/2 of the men on earth you want to get rid of. Honestly, your idea sounds a little ridiculous. How can you say we should get rid of 1/2 the men on earth and 1/2 our problems will go away?! Pffft!
Let me guess, "you don't go to Chick-fil-a anymore" Correct? I'll put my paycheck on it!
Haha! Of course he's WHITE! I heard it on the news this morning 5:30 am pst. Evberyone knows he's white too. This site is for idiots to express their idiotic veiws behind the computer because their balls are locked away in their key boards!
Religion is just an excuse to killl people who refuse to believe what you telll them to believe.
The two most hateful religions in history are Islam and X-tianity - but not necessarily in that order.
AND.....Shame on ABC News for attempting to link this to The TEA Party....They are supposed to REPORT the news, NOT Manufacture it....
"ABC News, Brian Ross apologize for report suggesting shooting suspect tied to Tea Party"
""An earlier ABC News broadcast report suggested that a Jim Holmes of a Colorado Tea Party organization might be the suspect, but that report was incorrect. ABC News and Brian Ross apologize for the mistake, and for disseminating that information before it was properly vetted," the statement said. "
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/20/abc-news-brian-ross-apologize-for-report-suggesting-shooting-suspect-tied-to/
I wonder if there is a James Holmes somewhere that is a member of the NAACP.....OR, in some chapter of OCCUPY " _________"....(fill in the blank) ????
Oh Mike in Delray, save your racial rants! Haha! How 'bout wondering if this young white man will get a firing squad for murdering innocent families and children or will he be gutted and hung upside down in a tank infested with great white sharks??
"looks like he went a little 'BATTY'over batman at the movie theater" ;p
SHOOTER in a neuroscience program at University of Colorado-Denver medical school.
Ohhhh......an "intellectual". The kind the Left gets googly-eyed over!! I see.......
That quote never says its not terrorism. It just says its not islamic terrorism.
Oh, Ed-2796629....ABC went out of their way to find a guy with that name linked to the TEA Party....Sorry you couldn't grasp the concept that they didn't come up with anyone with that pretty common name anywhere else.....NAACP AND OCCUPY is a racist comment ???...The TEA party has more "Conservative African-Americans " than the OCCUPY has Anarchist African-Americans.....Paleeze...go play your racist card somewhere else.....
Cant go anywhere anymore.
In fairness, it does seem like movie theaters are a magnet for psychos, huh?
Yes, it does seem that we aren't meant to wander too far from home! The world is nuts and the idiots are loose from the zoos. Sigh.
I'd just love to wake up one morning for a 24 hour period of time and nothing tragic of all of these shootings, etc (not talking about wars, they will never end) happens. One can't even call it common sense anymore it's gotten so bad!
@!$%# YOU!!! In fairness to this @!$%#@!$%# who shot people??? shoulda been you they shot at dip@!$%#!!!
Thats not what the person said take a pill
"Can't go anywhere anymore." Not at Midnight you can't. Not if you want to try to avoid drunk drivers, criminals, and plenty of other law breaking idiots. Of course the school shootings took place during the daytime but statisticly crime and idiots are always worse late at night. There are so many nutbags in the world today that your comment has great truth to it. People are no longer safe in their own homes anymore. Don't expect it to ever get any better. We are getting closer and closer to the last days and when you turn on the news every night and let them convince you that we are almost there, the number of copy cat nutbags just keeps growing and growing. I say we legalize weed and have a ten o clock curfew.
Joe Cool-326398
go back to your nut farm and stay there!
If you're looking to be 100%, totally, absolutely, down-to-a-mathematical-certainty safe then you're right. There is no such thing. You can either live your life in constant fear of the wildly probable disaster or you can just accept that nothing is 100% safe.
If you get on an airplane, there is a tiny, tiny, tiny, TINY chance that some terrorist will blow it up. There's a far greater risk that you'll by killed at home by your own furniture but almost no one seems to realize that. The people that were INSIDE the World Trade Center on 9/11 when the planes hit were more likely to die of cancer than terrorism -- yet we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the military "to keep us safe", while medical researchers struggle for funding.
The point I'm making here is that this horrible tragedy will likely scare people away from seeing the film and may lead to even greater infringements on our privacy. Will we soon have to pass through a metal detector just to see a movie in the theater?
Stuff like this is why all school systems should teach at LEAST five years of probability. It relates to everything you do in life and almost no one understands it.
isn't that the SCARY truth
@junicon, one of the first thing you learn in a probability class is that the general rules of probability don't apply to small sample sizes...Just sayin.
Schools are barely teaching grammar anymore, at least in Floriduh, let alone teaching probability. Don't get me wrong, I am all for teaching probability and all, but this is a problem that I don't think is relatable to schools and what they are or are not doing. When the facts come in, I will be interested in reading what those who know the perpetrator have to say about this person. Because invariably, someone, somewhere probably knew the perpetrator was capable of doing some messed up thing like this. The issue is, can these people be identified prior to them killing innocent bystanders and once identified, what course of action could be taken from there. All the people who committed those postal related workplace shootings (hence, the term going postal), the people who committed ANY workplace shootings, the guy who shot all those people in that McDonald's some years back, the guy who was on top of that university many years ago, the Columbine shooters......someone always said, after the fact, that they knew that person was capable of some heinous crime such as the ones they committed. Always after the fact. Yes, I know that there is very little one can do in these cases unless and until something tragic happens but the tragic happenings seem to be occurring with more frequency.
Oh, and about the metal detector thing, see my prior post. Halfway joking about that but.........
@Sandie
You talk like you are from mars or something...EVERYONE is capable of these things..you me your neighborg..absolutely everyone that is human..that is just a fact and you are welcome to make an ass of yourself denying it..can't wait
Speak for yourself, rockaddict. Dang it, I hate it when the nutjobs come out. BTW you seem to be quite capable of making an a$$ of yourself. Good job, a gold star for you.
Rockaddict...I thought you were too upset to write anymore. You should have stopped then because every comment since is not from someone who is ... too upset... but rather like any other troll talking bullsh#t
I am thinking about deleting my vine account again.
Off topic ramblings and posters attacking each other on a devastating story like this? Just sad.
I am glad they got the guy!
Welcome to the jungle folks. After two generations of young people raised in the throw away parenting cycle, if you can call it parenting at all, that put their kids on front of video games where the winner is decided by the decapitation of the other. Think the movie "Bully" on a national scale, where these kids have no souls. Glad to be older because this is going to become more and more the norm, nutcases exploding. The era where you no longer really communicate except with your thumbs, the voice has become a thing of the past, leading to more lives in complete isolation except the screen in front of your face as humans become drones, it's already happening. Children with zero social skills, enamored by the screen, the screen that runs their world, and desensitizes them to the real world.
Rockyroad, all this is a symptom of the confused society we live in. We go at each other saying all kinds of dumb things but nothing happens because no one touches the real cause or cares to go beyond talking. All people do is repeat the political bs they are fed to keep them confuse. Don't quit, just ignore the fools. Maybe, if you do and others like you do so, then we might see a more intelligent discussion that might give fruit to some affirmative actions.
@ Smittenkitten.....you're precisely why I made this comment above,
I've heard an awful lot of people crying for the gunman's death to justify this tragedy.......don't you think that's how this guy's mind was working before he did this? Dostoevsky said it a long time ago, "To judge any society, first look at those in their prisons..." (paraphrased) I have long believed that for everyone found/convicted of a crime.....there's another 20 who've dodged the same justice. Evidently, this guy had "reached the end of his journey" in becoming a mass murderer.....some of the comments I've read here, tell me that others are on the same road.....
As Christ once taught, "you've already committed the sin in your heart...", Smittenkitten...
Prayers for the victims and their families.
it's nice that you quote things alleged to have been muttered by your mythical christ creature...
now, if the cult followers, who call themselves christians, would actually Live Their Values Every Day, instead of worrying about all the non-believers who aren't living by the surgically-targeted, obscure BuyBull passages that the mainstream likes to shriek about, the world would be a much better place. How much nicer Life In America would be if christians woudl simply mind their own goddam business and stop trying to legislate a small portion of their ignorant cultism to force everyone to follow along...
You talk allot of crap bernitch, you obviously are not collage educated but liberal eduhated yes EDUHATED your a main stream Liberal that I had to defend, for some of your points you spit out, a "Cult" look up the term retard, A established religion is not a "Cult" and Recession "Bush" look a bit harder and longer, and keep of the blog with your political agenda, your the next wacko that goes slaco in a mall or theater near us with all of your hate for the human race. Your a original case
he snapped plain and simple, and planned methodically, had his hair painted red and told police he was the joker.....what was the song he kept playing over and over?
Wow that is crazy! Can people just watch the movie in peace?!
The movie was about wild violence. Most of us are fans of Batman but others might sympathize more with Bane. We have to wait to see what this guy says to justify his actions.
Batman is a vigilante, and in the comics an anti-hero, not a hero (he is pretty off his rocker too). Bane was made into a villain by another villain against his will via chemicals and stuff. He went crazy from the experiment...he's a villain, but an unwilling one who is also a victim. I think he wasl ike a scrawny teenager before the experiment or something...it's been years since I read the comic, but I do have several copies, unopened and one newsstand issue (opened) of Bane crippling Batman and setting the stage for Azrael to take Bruce Wayne's place as the new (and murderous) Batman.
In the Batman comic books I used to read, Batman was a hero fighting crime. And no one ever died. The thieves were given to the police. From that to what happened last night only reveals the caos that goes on in the mind of this society, from the writers to the shooter. Pitiful transition!!
Wow, these comments are so clean. No racism/bigotry of any-sort.
(If the guy was black it would be a lynch mob, then the statistics creeps would pop there little heads in.)
Funny stuff - Some of you newsviners make me sick.
You may have read some Batman comics (they made the kiddy version and the adult versions 0. You obviously weren't reading the Dark Knight. The DK was especially dark, and many people died.
however, i do not claim any media, video games, or comics led to this attack (or any significant violence in society)...to be clear.
Was the movie any good?
i couldnt see with all the blood in my eyes
It was awesome. Not "shoot everyone around you" awesome, but fantastic none-the-less.
The screaming made Bane's dialogue difficult to understand. Really disappointing.
WTF is wrong with you, these are real people that were or are loved by real people. Being a FOOL is efforless, put just a bit of effort forth and think about this situation from the perspective of the victims and their families...you damn fool.
These guys are the types of posters who would laugh if their family members were slaughtered around them.
It's from all the weed they are smoking!
Daniel and Caer Raven,
Nice efforts on your parts but,unfortunately,we've seen plenty of evidence in the last few years in this country that you can't fix bone-ass ignorant.
Sincere condolences to the families and friends of the victims. Just a Damn shame.
@Mike277
yeah it was..lot of people died for real...clown!
The movie was "killer", "to die for" from the reviews I'm hearing..
was a damn good movie. i expect it to do even better than the gay hunger games.
Oh jeez! What the hell is it with some of these people who shamelessly take innocent lives. At a movie theatre of all places to shoot people who just want to have a good time. My thoughts go out to the victims and their families!
Did you have the same to say about your BRAVE soldiers who kill women and children, I doubt it.
Listen people, this is a direct result of American vile and violent culture, this only happens in the USA. I absolutely feel for the families of the victims who were going to see a movie, but I sure sure my empathy is not shared by most Americans when their soldiers kill members of my family.
From the description it was a black guy. So 95 percent it's probably a leftist Dem.
And about James Yasin, the muslim guy. Why do you pray to a guy who married a six year old?
Violence only happens in the us? So there isn't anyone killing each other in Somalia, Syria, Israel/Palestine, Pakistan/India, Sudan/South Sudan, Mexico. Using totalities to prove a point generally just weakens said point.
1/10. You're gonna have to try harder than that, James.
these shootings do not just happen in the USA. You think a movie shooting is any different than a Jihadist that "believes" that violence brings him paradise, or a drug cartel in Mexico that kills an entire town? They are all in the same: INSANE. There have been mass shootings in many countries (and not terrorism), look it up.
I'm from Switzerland. Believe me, this ain't about America. Horrible things like this happen or could happen anywhere. Remember last years shooting in Norway? Terrorism in Spain some years ago? School shootings in Germany about two or three years ago? Those are just a few examples. This isn't about countries, this is about the people who're doing this, about how they're raised and how special psychiatrist don't see what's real going wrong with such people's lives. Anyway, it's clearly really difficult to see that...
May the victims rest in peace and may god bless their families.
From the description that was given, how did you reach the conclusion that the perpetrator is "a black guy"? I must have missed that. Exactly where does it say that?
Hellooooo, still waiting........
@twelve, hey brainiac, black clad refers to ones clothing not their skin. High probability that when someone makes a dumb, uninformed comment like yours, they're a wingnut. Not to worry though, you have company in your dumbness with those who voted up your idiotic statement.
I saw no mention of the shooters pants down around his crotch, so it couldn't have been a black guy, could it?
Kids of many races wear their pants like that, not just black guys. And I said kids because I do not reacall seeing any grown a$$ men of any color wearing their pants like that.
james- sure your name isn't ackbar moosafaad- you jerk-off, why don't you go and throw acid in your mom's face for not having your dinner ready? oh yeah and take part in beheading your sister for trying to have a thought of her own- your done- may someone pick you off in a crowd
And now, I'll say to you, SeewhatImean,
I've heard an awful lot of people crying for the gunman's death to justify this tragedy.......don't you think that's how this guy's mind was working before he did this? Dostoevsky said it a long time ago, "To judge any society, first look at those in their prisons..." (paraphrased) I have long believed that for everyone found/convicted of a crime.....there's another 20 who've dodged the same justice. Evidently, this guy had "reached the end of his journey" in becoming a mass murderer.....some of the comments I've read here, tell me that others are on the same road.....
Prayers for the victims and their families.
how nice -- more useless hand-mumbling to cult creatures "for the victims" --
maybe your cult god should have helped them out BEFORE they all got killed for simply going to see a movie? or is your cult god a useless pile of crap? maybe your cult god doesn't exist at all -- since, after 2000 years, all the followers of your cult have experienced an EPIC FAIL in trying to prove its existence.
Texson55 - I couldn't agree more. This was a terrible, nightmarish attack by someone who is totally flipped out. Then I go on to read comments from people who, in their need for instant revenge are just as blood thirsty as this guy. How far away from the edge can you be yourself with comments like that. wow.
That's like 10 sets of parents.
When they say turn your cell phones off they mean it.
That was what crossed my mind.......Somebody probably got pissed off, because someone told them to shut their damned cell phone off....or to quit texting. Damned idiots with their little blue screens punctuating the darkness & distracting folks who shell out big $$$ to see a film. Probably trying to record bootleg copies as well. Of course I could be wrong, but that's just popped into my head.
Your comment reminded me of this.
damn, wouldn't let me post link:/
.......Somebody probably got pissed off, because someone told them to shut their damned cell phone off...
More like it was planned if the article is correct tat they found explosives also. Says perp was Indian. American Indian or Indian from India?
Giantego, We don't call Native Americans "Indian" any longer. It is not politically correct. If someone from the press used the word Indian it is most likely someone from India.
Denis Moor, the man came to the theater armed, and was wearing gear for the event. It doesn't sound like it was a flip decision. It was planned.
I've been working with tribes in the pacific northwest for some time now "Indian" is still acceptable. It was never politically incorrect. Vine Deloria, well known American Indian author and historian has written about the use of the "Indian". In fact, many essays have been written about the use of "Indian". I suggest reading some of those essays and even talking to Indians, you may be surprised at how "Indian" became "racist" and/or politically incorrect. White America put the restrictions on the word, American Indians never really cared. It makes for a good dialog, I highly recommend talking to tribal members about the usage.
Peace
Solution? The appropriate punishment.
He won't get the appropriate punishment. We can all most likely look forward to a media trial, years of publicity giving credence to his sick agenda.
A death sentence ten or twenty years from now will do nothing to discourage copy-cats.
And to those who propose removing all guns from guys like this? Are you aware that only law-abiding people will turn in their guns, and only some of those? Do you really think people with his mentality will turn in their guns if told to do so?
And this is why everyone should carry a gun. At least it gives people a chance to defend themselves.
If just 1 person had a Snub Nose .38, they may have been able to get in behind this guy and put one in the back of his head. Or at least, creating a distraction/ shootout giving more people time to escape.
I believe that the press would have said American Indian or Native to desribe the person- Thanks to whites 150 years ago almost wiping the race off the map Im sure the person isn't full blooded.