Two of the most high-profile mass shootings in U.S. history happened 13 years and mere miles apart in the areas surrounding Denver, Colo.
The shootings at an Aurora, Colo., movie theater just after midnight on Friday morning left 12 people dead, 58 wounded and James Eagan Holmes, the 24-year-old suspected shooter, in police custody. In April 1999, two students at Columbine High School, outside of Littleton, Colo., killed 12 students and one teacher. Friday's shooting occurred about 30 minutes northeast of Columbine.
"We’ve had our share of these kinds of shootings," said Delbert Elliott, founding director of the Center for the Study and Prevention of Violence at the University of Colorado. "I don’t have any simple explanation for why that should be happening in Colorado."
After barely escaping a mall shooting last month, aspiring sports reporter Jessica Ghawi did not survive the theater shooting. Her brother spoke to reporters about her remarkable spirit. NBC's Kristen Dahlgren reports.
That question may be on the minds of Coloradans, but there is no evidence to indicate that the state stands out nationwide. In fact, the number of firearm deaths in Colorado in 2008, the latest available data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, were 10.3 per 100,000 -- the same as the national rate.
Diane R. Follingstad, a forensic psychologist at the University of Kentucky, said that despite proximity, any association with the Columbine shooting would have to be based on specific information given by the suspected shooter.
"These kinds of cases have to have individual assessments," Follingstad said. "If that person was around and lived through (Columbine), what was their knowledge and access to it? Were they trying to parallel something about it? It would be an interesting question to ask, but you’d have to do an individual assessment."
There is no evidence that Holmes lived in Colorado at the time of the Columbine shooting. Holmes was a graduate student from San Diego who was in the process of withdrawing from the neuroscience program at University of Colorado-Denver medical school.
Suspect James Eagan Holmes reportedly never said a word while allegedly shooting 71 people and killing 12 in a sold-out showing for Batman movie "The Dark Knight Rises." Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper said it was "the act of a very deranged mind." NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, told NBC News that he was not surprised the shooting happened in Colorado.
"It may be a coincidence that it happened nearby (Columbine), but it’s a reminder that gun laws are weak in Colorado," Vice said. "The state makes it very easy for dangerous people to get deadly weapons."
Colorado, according to the Brady Center, does not ban assault weapons, has no limits on the number of handguns that can be bought in one purchase and does not provide law enforcement discretion about who can carry a concealed weapon as long the individual has passed a basic background check. In some states, though not in Colorado, a background check requires interviewing family or friends who could express concern about the applicant owning a firearm.
While Vice was critical of Colorado's gun control laws, he said that multiple shooting deaths and injuries happen more frequently nationwide than many realize. In May, for example, a man walked into a Seattle cafe and fatally shot four people and then killed another person in a carjacking. In Oklahoma City, also in May, a 16-year-old boy opened fire in a crowd after an NBA game and shot eight people. In June, three people were killed and two were wounded by gunfire outside a Houston night club.
Such incidents, Vice said, rarely get the attention that mass shootings like at Columbine, Virginia Tech and in Tuscon, but they reflect a harsh reality.
"What (the shooting in Aurora) really symbolizes is that this can happen anywhere -- a high school or movie theater, a small town or big town," he said.
Elliott, of the University of Colorado, said that he was unsure a mass shooting like the one committed in Aurora could be prevented by stricter gun control laws alone. "If I’m intent on going in and shooting people in a theater, I'm not sure those gun control laws would help."
Colorado does have a different safeguard in place, a bystander reporting tool known as Safe2Tell that allows confidential and anonymous reports about threatening behavior or activities. Founded in 2004 on the recommendation of the Columbine Commission, the tool is targeted for school-age children, but can be used by anyone. Susan Payne, the program's executive director, said that bystander reports have prevented 28 school attacks through the confiscation of weapons and hit-lists or the discovery of plans.
Payne said that the non-profit organization, which is led by law enforcement, was examining recent reports to see if someone had expressed concerns ahead of Friday's theater shooting. "We don’t have any information to release at this time," she said.
For Stan Paprocki, a former education consultant who served on the Columbine Commission, the news of the shootings was shocking and devastating, though it was not something he immediately identified with Columbine or Colorado.
"I don't think it's specific to the state because other instances have happened around the country," he said. "It's a senseless, inhumane act."
He said the shooting raises questions about how to prevent such violence in the future.
"I think it pulls a community together and it’s sad that it takes tragedy for a community to come together," Paprocki said. "How do we take care of one another outside of tragic times? How do we make sure that we are collectively safe?"
If you have information to report to Safe2Tell, the confidential hotline is 877.542.7233. Reports can also be made on the organization's website.
Rebecca Ruiz is a reporter at NBC News. M. Alex Johnson and Pete Williams of NBC News contributed to this report.
Related content from NBCNews.com:
- Theater shooter believed to be ex-graduate student at Colorado medical school
- Police: 'Sophisticated' booby-trap in Colorado shooting suspect's apartment
- Woman who died in Colo. movie rampage narrowly escaped being shot last month
- Witnesses react online to 'Dark Knight' theater shooting
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The killer may have a helper; check cell phone and check phone record; go after his helper. His helper may be another real criminal that the Colorado people are looking for.
Who has helped the killer to get in from the back door when the movie is playing?
All he had to do was buy a ticket, go in to the theater, prop the door open with a stick, go out, put on his gear, and go back in. It wouldn't be difficult. I know people who have smuggled other people, or alcoholic beverages, in to a theater that way.
Lady buff..that's exactly what he did...been in the news since Friday morning how he did it.
i was going to say the same thing, that is what he did literally
WOW! People are really having troubles mentally and taking it out on innocent. He looks so calm, just like George Zimmerman. A really innocent face, but deadly in the mind.
I am praying for all these people, Lord have mercy on the families.
George Zimmerman looks nothing like this guy, nor are their cases even remotely similar. You are deluding yourself.
George Zimmerman shot someone in self defense. Think before you type. Its people like you that cause problems in this country.
Reading articles about the Colorado shooting and a number seem to insist on going back to Hollywood being responsible due to violence in films. Millions of people watch movies, play video games, etc, and they do not act violently. This was not an easily influenced teen. This guy was a med student. He graduated with a neuroscience degree. This was a messed up guy who decided he wanted to be famous. The premiere was a prime target because people were trapped in one spot. There was no space between them. It was dark. It could have just as easily been a concert, a sporting event, anything. Stop blaming Hollywood and video game creators and start taking responsibility for your children, friends, etc. His mother did an interview and said it did not surprise her that her son did the shooting. Seriously?
No surprise that the Brady Center will immediately capitalize on this horrific tragedy to further their own political ambitions. What a blatant disregard for the human condition. The bodies have scarcely cooled on the slab (heck, some reports indicate many of the bodies are still in the theater) and here comes the Brady Campaign to infer that all gun owners are dangerous psychopaths and that Colorado's government wasn't nanny enough to prevent the horror. Nanny-up, Colorado. The Brady Center told you to.
"The bodies have scarcely cooled on the slab" < and you're here with your hateful crap
How is anything I've posted hateful, Greg?
Let me see if I have this straight... I call attention to a political entity grandstanding on the death and suffering of others, and I'm the hateful one? Who's taking advantage of who, Greg? I'm certainly not benefiting from this horrific act of violence. But I'll give you one guess what entity is trying their damnedest to wring every political point they can from this. (Hint: they're mentioned in the article).
I agree with this post. Greg, get your head out of your ass.
I wonder if this theatre will now ban firearms on their premises? Probably would not have prevented this tragedy. But, it will be interesting to see where this tragedy will lead the discussion in Colorado with Columbine being only 30 minutes away and a vivid memory.
Unfortunately,
guns are not the problem. Just as Cars aren't the problem when a driver speeds
or drive drunk and kills someone. It could have easily been any other type of
weapon that this moron used. I wonder if someone in the theater was
"carrying" would the results be different. I'm in the military and
work around guns daily and in my 20+ years being around guns, I've never seen
one just spontaneously start shooting at people. We have to address the real
problem and that is who should be allowed to have guns. Criminals will always
have access to guns regardless of what the laws say, that's why they are called
law breakers. My heart and prayers goes out to those innocent victims and their
families. And I hate the fact that whenever something horrible like this happens,
the media and politicians see it has an opportunity to promote their lies and
hidden agenda to the public.
This guy was from California............. and like USAF-MSgt said he was no kid.
Go ahead and ban firearms at theaters, bars, banks, Gov't bldgs, And anywhere you can think of.
I GUARANTEE YOU, that you will still have shootings at these establishments in the future.
How about ANYONE entering a BANK wearing a ballcap, be SUSPECTED of being a BANK robber.
Just sayin'
USAF: He was law abiding until this point, how to you plan on weeding out future criminals from that group? Also, people were injured from bullets going thru the walls, a knife would not have had that range.
The pols, from Obama to the mayor of Aurora, have nothing to suggest but only meaningless words of sympathy to offer. That a person can buy thousands of rounds of ammunition without any explanation or references does not bring any concerns to their minds. Better to lose dozens of lives than dollars from NRA profiteers, right?
Reply to USAF MSgt: Yes, fix the underlying problems of a society with massive unemployment, a corrupted federal government that has spent our national treasure saving fraudulent big banks, that borrows to support a bloated military establishment and unending wars on terrorism and drugs while cutting back on domestic services, welfare for the long-term unemployed, Medicare, Social Security COLAS based on distorted CPI data and meaningless elections! Lets stop wasting hundreds of billions on F35s and F22s for the Air Force. Let's fix these, yes!
People need to remember that several off duty military people were there as well. It's not the guns that kill people, it guns in the hands of people that have no business with weapons. If you take the guns away from law abiding citizens, you are left with criminals having all the weapons.
Deb,
That is the dichotomy isn't it? Good proposition. Now if someone could help us spot those people who have no business with weapons... problem solved. I agree with your statement. But it only goes so far...
The gun lobby needs to part of the solution and not resist any discussion that "appears" to threaten ownership rights.
I carry. I hunt, I grew up with and own several guns in a different state with much tighter restrictions.
I would like to see the NRA and law abiding citizens in favor of gun ownership... propose a solution that works for all of us. Otherwise, gun ownership is left in the hands of legislators and the feds to continue to restrict our rights.
I do not see "carrying" and citizens policing the streets as part of the solution for crime prevention.
This guy WAS a law abiding citizen - until today. He had no criminal record, he purchased all of his weapons legally.
However, there is more and more evidence that a few months ago something started cracking in his mind. Mental breakdown after years of honor student studies and stress? I don't know. But he went from "normal person" - no not normal - "exceptional person" to a mass killer in just a few months.
What happened? People like that don't usually just change overnight.
this is so tragic my thoughts and prayers are with the people of colo. i lived in colorado 1982 to 2001 what i found most remarkable about the people of colo was the ability of all people to come together. all races seemed to have had the ability to live together. this is evident in some of the photos i have seen with blacks and whites hugging and consoling each other. i wish other people could learn something from this and i hope this is a quality denver never loses! colorado is still a wonderful state and i wish someday to live there again.
A little off topic, but I appreciated NBC putting Ann Curry on the broadcast. She is great in a breaking news situation.
Ann Curry got shi* on by Matt Lousy. I agree, that I was suprised to see her. Great article by her. I always liked her reporting, as down to earth, not SENSATIONALIZED.
I cannot believe after the Reagan shooting and the gun discussions that lead to the Brady law that we are back to zero with gun control. There is no reason that a person should be able to own an assault rifle. This was a law abiding person up to this point that obtain 4 guns in a month, this should be a alarm for any gun check. If someone tells me that they are a law abiding citizen and should have this right, I am going to laugh. As this proves, that line means nothing. You are only law abiding until something happens, and as sad as it is, why should I or my family trust your word?
If more people were to carry a gun, this guy would only have killed maybe one... We need to protect ourselves wherever we go these days.
Now if that's not scary, I don't know what is! The 2nd Amendment was intended as a final check of government authority, not an intention for evil people to have the means of killing innocent people.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson
It is unlikely that the Founding Fathers would have been able to envision shotguns, assault rifles, handguns, and other modern-day artillery. If we have "the right to bear arms" for the reason it was intended, then let everyone have powder-loaded firearms. Good luck trying to shoot a large number of people in a very short time with those! Just try and take your little cannon somewhere without being noticed! Of course this isn't going to expunge the automatic weapons that are out there, but we HAVE TO start somewhere! We must start somewhere.
We need to have stricter gun-control laws in this country in order to prevent tragedies like this one.
Here's an article to start the discussion:
We need to use the laws we already have........
We need metal detectors in theatres i know prices may go up but we are living in a dangerous world. My heart goes out to the family of the 4month who survived injuries. I have a 4month old. I am not judging the parents but I would have never taken my baby to a midnight screening of batman and my husband love the franchise and were awaiting to see this movie. My best wishes and prayers go out to the families.
If you put metal detectors in theaters, you need to put them everywhere... Every mall, every store, every bank, etc. This was an isolated incident. You need to tackle it at the core, which is gun control. Nobody should be able to purchase an assault rifle, and the other types of guns used, and crap-loads of ammunition (6,000 rounds is what he purchased online). Sorry, it needs regulations. Look at other countries, and the statistics and facts.
That couple just moved to Colorado and had no family or babysitter to watch the baby! What were they supposed to do? Leave the baby home alone? Lots of people bring their babies and children to the movies as a family outing.
Molly, how about NOT going to a movie... Real smart... NOT!
just as the problems with global warming, illegal immigration, the economy, politics, and on and on, the solution to the gun problem is no solution - we have these tragedys time after time and what do we do - light candles, pray for the victims, analyze the shooter, ad nasuem and what changes - only the date for the next massacre - it happens, we fight about what should be done for a few days but then are distracted with the next lindsay lohan misadventure or tom cruise's domestic problems - killings like this will eventually just be background noise just like reporting on the war in afghanistan
the only way this is related to zimmerman is for the fact all the drama is of him, his prayers came true..
just sayin..
American Terrorist on our soil, it's so sad my prayers to all the families effected to this coward animal White American Terrorist!!!!!
White Christian American Terrorist on Our soil ! My prayers for the families, this coward animal White American Christian Terrorist should be punish and not get away by pretending to be mentally insane.
Gret a grip you racist!
The pain is so overwhelming, it is paralyzing my hope for you and your families is that you find the strength to endure this horrific tragedy. An through this dark time it is my prayer that those fighting for their lives and those recovering come through this Stormy time. For those that survived your hearts are heavy may you wonder but it is by the grace of God. Sending heartfelt prayers to you and your families be blessed.
This headline reads: "Tragedy in Colorado: 'We've had our share'"
So the question is: What are you going to do about it? More talk or something a little more concrete.
Lets execute all people, that are like this.
Bleeding hearts, say ( he's a human life)
so were the HUMANS , that were at the movie theatre.Their lives are NEVER coming back.
So in closing ,I say hang 'em high!!
Charge a small fee, you pay for the rope and have a designated tree.
The gutless wonder should have shot himself. Too bad he's going to be such a waste for taxpayers for years ahead.
There is no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle! You don't need that kind of weapon for self defense. That is only used for killing people. So how many more people will be killed and injured in Colorado before they pass stricter gun control laws?
You also don't need hundreds of rounds of ammunition! There should be a limit on how much ammunition you can buy and how many guns you can own. You can only shoot one gun at a time!
Colorado get your gun laws updated or we will continue to read about more people getting killed and injured from guns in your state.
We already have plenty of gun laws. Officials just need to use them..... Columbine and this were 3 mental cases. Why punish law abiding citizens for 3 nut jobs stupidity and ignorance? Maybe we need more mental health regulations for "loners". Makes more sense than gun laws.
Do you have any idea how much revenue this state takes in on hunters??? Are you willing to give up services for no more guns?
Glad to know that you are more concerned about the state revenue than the people that can be killed by lax gun control. And the guy was Law Abiding until this happened.
I was commenting on Molly's comment..... And no, I'm not worried about revenue over people. As I have said many time before........... We already have strict gun laws in Colorado, it just depends on who uses them. Maybe you could enlighten us on exactly what laws are lax... What do you suggest to not let this happen again? Law abiding gun owners take the privilege of ownership very serious. Yes, it is a very serious PRIVILEGE!
@Molly
Not true:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8
@2:54 mark. (disclaimer: those are full-auto shotguns!)
Yeah, better follow California (heralded as having the "best" gun control laws in the US) down the rabbit hole:
Homicide by Firearm per 100,000:
CA 4.82
CO 2.57
Obviously a clear indication that more laws are the answer. /sarc
@Pepster
It's not a privilege, it's a right. But I agree with most everything else you said.
Colorado does not have strict gun laws, it takes an 1/2 hour for a back-ground check there, in NY it is up to 6 months. Your laws are considered some of the weakest in the country. I know many gun owners and all of them do take their right to own a gun serious, however some are lax in storing them and when they use them, so stop thinking that all gun owners are great people. Some are and some are not, unfortunately a gun is not something that anyone should be able to get in an hour.
True, WMG. Very true!
@Zannie
And yet, NY state's homicide rate by firearm is worse than CO's with their "weak" gun laws:
Per 100,000:
NY: 2.67
CO: 2.57
It's a small difference, nearly inconsequential from a statistics standpoint, but obviously the draconian gun laws in NY have had no measurable, corollary impact on their homicide rate.
Gun owners are more concerned about their rights than the rights of the people who were killed and injured.
I highly doubt it. It's the media and people like you that make it look that way. Why is it all the gun owners fault? Exactly............ You can't answer that. Gun owners don't lose rights because we take the privilege of having firearms very seriously.
Our 'share' hasn't started. The rejection of God's graces is so obvious with Christian enlightenment. Continue to reject Christ's salvation offer, continue to authorize same sex unions, continue to ignore the starving masses, continue to prohibit prayers at school, continue to war, swindle, lie, cheat & steal & continue to pretend men are good & the murders will remain a small, nearly insignificant part of horrors to come. Find the Bible Schools, enroll & accept the offer.
Its very simple, oxygen deprivation to the brain. Altitude causes horsepower losses in engines people are no different. Flatlanders can't handle the "RockyMountain High" this guy was marginal at best and then you move him into thin air, its a recipe for disaster.
That's ridiculous! He's been here over a year. The Olympic Training Center is in Colorado Springs. Why do you think they put it there?
I'm thinking that his rage all boils down to a sexual confusion or disdain from his parents, particularly his father. He is probably mentally unbalanced to begin with & it looks as though he was moved from a nice, comfortable home in San Diego to what looks like the rougher part of town in Aurrora, CO. The change of lifestyle, piled in with his internal rage to seek revenge against someone made this person a ticking time bomb in a place where the supplies were easily gathered.
People need to look at the real facts and see the over all picture.
Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict
B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime
C. Criminals avoid armed citizens
1 Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.
Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J. Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution to criminology.
Even those who don't like the conclusions Dr. Kleck reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that, "What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator.... I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence." Wolfgang, "A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.
Wolfgang says there is no "contrary evidence." Indeed, there are more than a dozen national polls -- one of which was conducted by The Los Angeles Times -- that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," Research in Brief (May 1997).
As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.
2 According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than 30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.
3Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.
4Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 185.
5 Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, "Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms," NIJ Research in Brief (May 1997); available at on the internet. The finding of 1.5 million yearly self-defense cases did not sit well with the anti-gun bias of the study's authors, who attempted to explain why there could not possibly be one and a half million cases of self-defense every year. Nevertheless, the 1.5 million figure is consistent with a mountain of independent surveys showing similar figures. The sponsors of these studies -- nearly a dozen -- are quite varied, and include anti-gun organizations, news media organizations, governments and commercial polling firms. See also Kleck and Gertz, supra note 1, pp. 182-183.
6Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.
7George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93.
8Id. at 164, 185.
9Dr. Gary Kleck, interview with J. Neil Schulman, "Q and A: Guns, crime and self-defense," The Orange County Register (19 September 1993). In the interview with Schulman, Dr. Kleck reports on findings from a national survey which he and Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993 -- a survey which findings were reported in Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime." br>10 One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on the study's findings in John R. Lott, Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime," The Wall Street Journal (28 August 1996). See also John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns," University of Chicago (15 August 1996); and Lott, More Guns, Less Crime (1998, 2000).
11Lott and Mustard, "Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns."
12Kathleen O'Leary Morgan, Scott Morgan and Neal Quitno, "Rankings of States in Most Dangerous/Safest State Awards 1994 to 2003," Morgan Quitno Press (2004) at Morgan Quitno Press is an independent private research and publishing company which was founded in 1989. The company specializes in reference books and monthly reports that compare states and cities in several different subject areas. In the first 10 years in which they published their Safest State Award, Vermont has consistently remained one of the top five safest states.
13Memo by Jim Smith, Secretary of State, Florida Department of State, Division of Licensing, Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report (October 1, 2002).
14Florida's murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in 2002. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.
15 John R. Lott, Jr., "Right to carry would disprove horror stories," Kansas City Star, (July 12, 2003).
16Gary Kleck, "Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force," Social Problems 35 (February 1988):15.
17Compare Kleck, "Crime Control," at 15, and Chief Dwaine L. Wilson, City of Kennesaw Police Department, "Month to Month Statistics: 1991." (Residential burglary rates from 1981-1991 are based on statistics for the months of March - October.)
18Kleck, Point Blank, at 140.
19Kleck, "Crime Control," at 13.
20U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities (1979), p. 31.
21U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July 1985): 27.
Good info here.