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Marc Piscotty for NBC News
Eric and Sophia Gettys of Aurora, Colo. help their children Gabriel, 4, and Gabriela, 6, with 12 heart-shaped balloons that they placed at a makeshift memorial near the Century 16 Movie Theaters at the Aurora Town Center on Saturday. The family had planned to go to a movie at another theater to get their minds off the tragedy but found it closed because one of the shooting victims had worked there so they saw it as a sign to visit the memorial and leave one balloon for each victim.
AURORA, Colo. -- Twelve candles, a birthday card and flowers placed in popcorn boxes.
Mourners created a makeshift memorial Saturday across the street from a movie theater where 12 people were killed and dozens injured in an attack, with some shedding tears and sharing embraces as they grappled to understand the deadly assault on their community.
A birthday card with a photo of victim Alex Sullivan stood amid the stuffed animals and balloons. “Gone not forgotten,” read one poster. A group held hands in a circle and said a prayer, and a girl placed 12 red heart-shaped balloons at the empty lot.
Shannon Stapleton / Reuters
As many as 12 people were killed and 50 injured at a shooting at the Century 16 movie theatre in Aurora, Colo. early Friday during the showing of the latest Batman movie.
“Our heart goes out to everybody. We grew up in the community here and it’s in our backyard. It’s just too close to home,” Shawn Quintana, 40, whose sister lit 12 white candles for the victims, told NBC News.
The memorial appeared a day after James Holmes allegedly attacked the theater after Friday midnight with four weapons and tear gas, killing 12 people and leaving 58 injured.
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Some motorists honked their horns at the well-wishers as they passed by along the large roadway across from the theater.
Communities gathered this weekend to remember those lost and those still fighting for their lives as a result of the tragic shooting in Colorado. NBC's Kate Snow reports.
Terry Jackson, 50, his wife, Donna, 58, and their 20-year-old son brought a bouquet of yellow and white flowers to pay their respects. Terry said he felt “very angry” about what had happened.
After a day of dismantling suspected Colorado gunman James Holmes' booby-trapped apartment, federal law enforcement officials are a step closer in their investigation. NBC's Mike Taibbi reports.
“I’d like to say that I felt peace in my life but I don’t,” he said, elaborating that he was “just angry that somebody could come in and be this evil and cause this much devastation.”
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“How could life be so bad for him that he destroy(ed) everybody else’s life?” he added.
“It’s hard to find words for something you can’t understand, for me,” Donna said.
Gary Ford, 24, said the outpouring of well-wishers was helping him cope with the loss of his friend and mentor, Sullivan, whom he last saw a month ago.
“Strangers who’ve never met each other ever in life are now … coming out to pay our respects and it’s helping me keep my composure for my buddy with a lot of people being here,” he said. But “not being able to see him ever again is going to be kind of hard, it’s going to be really hard.”
Bradshaw said she knew their community would change after the attack. “We just hope for the best,” she said.
“It took the innocence of going to a movie away,” she added. “It would take a lot to get me to (go) back to a theater.”
NBC's Miguel Almaguer has more on the victims of Friday's deadly Colorado movie theater shootings.
Related content from NBCNews.com:
- Victims who died include girl, sailor, aspiring sportscaster
- Police: Trip wire, bomb disarmed at suspect's apartment
- Photos of James Holmes, camp counselor for underprivileged kids
- Shooting survivor: Boyfriend 'took a bullet for me'
- 6-year-old girl confirmed to have been killed in Colorado shootings
- Will Colorado shootings suspect James Eagan Holmes ever face trial?
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THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS UNDER THE US Constitution
The Second Amendment is a right held by the states, and does not protect the possession of a weapon by a private citizen."
How the NRA Rewrote the Constitution On Second Amendment, September/October 1996
On April 5, 1996, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit handed down its ruling in Hickman v. City of Los Angeles. Ray Hickman had argued that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gave him a right to keep and bear firearms, and that this right was infringed by the city's refusal to issue him a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The Ninth Circuit rejected Hickman's claim: "We follow our sister circuits in holding that the Second Amendment is a right held by the states," the court said, "and does not protect the possession of a weapon by a private citizen."
The Hickman case is the most recent in an unbroken chain of federal decisions, spanning 60 years, ruling that the Second Amendment does not confer an individual right to possess firearms. Courts have consistently held that the amendment's language--"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"--only gives the states the right to maintain well-regulated militias, which since 1903 have taken the form of the National Guard.
Despite this clear legal history, the National Rifle Association for years has advanced the view that the amendment provides a fundamental right to private gun ownership that cannot be abridged by the passage of guncontrol laws. Despite its efforts, the NRA's interpretation of the Second Amendment has never passed constitutional muster in the courts; the group has litigated and funded several Second Amendment cases in federal courts, but has never won any.
Still, the NRA has managed to dominate political and journalistic discussions of the Second Amendment. While the NRA's interpretation of the Second Amendment is repeatedly cited in newspapers and on TV, the federal judiciary gets virtually no coverage of its definitive and binding rulings. News media coverage of the Hickman case is instructive: There was hardly any. Even though the decision is one of the most important in recent years on the Second Amendment, it went unreported in the New York Times, nor was it mentioned in the networks' evening newscasts.
Continued :
The Second Amendment in Court
Modern jurisprudence on the Second Amendment is founded on United States v. Miller, a 1939 Supreme Court case concerning a person convicted for carrying a sawed-off shotgun across state lines in violation of a 1934 federal law. The defendant argued in lower courts that the restraint on firearms violated his Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. The Supreme Court upheld the conviction, ruling that the Second Amendment offers no constitutional protection for individual ownership or purchase of a firearm, unless related "to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated [state] militia."
Every federal court since 1939 to hear a Second Amendment case has upheld Miller, despite repeated challenges over the years by gun-rights advocates. Brief excerpts from a few of many such cases since Miller illustrate the clear consensus in the federal judiciary on the Second Amendment's meaning:
"Since the Second Amendment right 'to keep and bear arms' applies only to the right of the state to maintain a militia, and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right of an individual to possess a firearm," the Sixth Court of Appeals ruled in 1971 (Stevens v. United States).
"These legislative restrictions on the use of firearms are neither based upon constitutionally suspect criteria, nor do they trench upon any constitutionally protected liberties.... The Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have 'some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated Militia,'" the Supreme Court reiterated in 1980 (Lewis v. United States).
The Hickman case decided this year (1996) followed these and dozens of other clear-cut precedents. "This case turns on the first constitutional standing element: whether Hickman has shown injury to an interest protected by the Second Amendment," the appeals court stated in its unanimous decision. "We note at the outset that no individual has ever succeeded in demonstrating such injury in federal court.... Because the Second Amendment guarantees the right of the states to maintain armed militia, the states alone stand in the position to show injury when this right is infringed."
The NRA's failed efforts to get any federal court to take seriously its claim that there is an individual right to own firearms under the Second Amendment do not seem to have damaged the group's credibility in the news media. Indeed, the NRA has a virtual monopoly in news reports concerning the gun movement's fundamental issue--the Second Amendment.
The public's right to know the judicial consensus on the Second Amendment is clearly at issue, since the federal courts, not the NRA, have the constitutional authority to define the legal reach of the amendment and its role in blocking or permitting gun-control legislation.
How the NRA Rewrote the Constitution
The Second Amendment and the '94 Campaign
Although a few editorials, op-ed columns and news reports have cited the judicial consensus on the Second Amendment, these mentions are rare exceptions rather than the rule. The Los Angeles Times, the Atlanta Journal and Constitution and USA Today have provided the most conscientious editorials and reports. The vast majority of editorials and news articles, however, are situated in a context that explicitly or implicitly accepts the NRA's view of the Second Amendment. Once established without challenge, this view is often presented as, or assumed to be, a formidable obstacle to gun-control laws, or to electoral candidates on the wrong side of the NRA's influence.
A case in point is the coverage of the NRA's role in the 1994 congressional elections, when the group was active in scores of districts. The NRA had taken much of the credit for the 1993 electoral defeat of New Jersey Gov. Jim Florio, a vigorous guncontrol advocate, and announced shortly thereafter that it would target congressional races to get gun-control opponents elected to the U.S. Congress. Subsequently, reporters covering these elections continually repeated NRA claims, or the claims of NRA-backed candidates, that gun control violated a fundamental constitutional right of individuals to keep and bear arms.
The New York Times, for example, ran two articles on the NRA and the 1994 congressional elections. On September 12, 1994, the Times covered a congressional race between an NRA-backed Republican congressmember in San Antonio, Henry Bonilla, who had voted against the assault weapons ban, and his challenger, Democrat Rolando Rios, whose support for the ban was the focus of his campaign to unseat Bonilla. Gun control was a major issue in the San Antonio race. There were more than 1,200 drive-by shootings there in 1993, one of which killed a four-year-old boy.
Even though San Antonio residents were outraged by the "random carnage," Rios' campaign aide initially discouraged his candidate's concern with gun control in a Texas race, since, according to one consultant quoted in the article, "It makes no sense for any Texas Congressional candidate to be seen as an opponent of the Second Amendment.... Knocking Second Amendment rights around here is the kiss of death."
Times reporter Katharine Q. Seelye made no effort to clarify the record regarding "Second Amendment rights." Seelye reported that Rios "tried to distinguish between his opposition to assault weapons and his support for hunters' rights," but offered nothing to balance the misleading premise that the Second Amendment stands as a constitutional barrier to guncontrol laws.
A "Tough" Capitulation
On Oct. 26, 1994, the Times carried a news report by Robin Toner on the NRA and the elections. This time, the focus was on the accuracy of NRA TV ads targeting two Democratic Senate incumbents, Sen. Bob Kerrey of Nebraska and Sen. Richard Bryan of Nevada, both of whom voted for the assault weapons ban.
Toner quoted NRA executive Tanya Metaksa as saying that the purpose of the NRA's efforts to defeat congressional supporters of the ban was to defend "freedom and the rights of lawabiding Americans to own guns." Toner then quoted an NRA ad targeting Kerrey, in which NRA spokesperson Charlton Heston addressed Kerrey on TV: "You said you wouldn't vote for gun bans. But you went to Washington and voted for the first federal gun ban in American history."
In response, Kerrey ran his own TV commercial, where, according to Toner, Kerrey is "dressed in hunting garb, as he fires at a clay pigeon." Kerrey then qualified his support for the gun ban by stating: "I'm a hunter, and I believe in the constitutional right to bear arms."
In a sidebar to the article, where Toner was supposed to check the veracity of both TV ads, she characterized Kerrey's rebuttal to Heston as "a tough response to a tough attack: Kerrey deals head-on with the charge that his support for the ban was a sellout of Nebraska hunters and gun owners." Not only did Toner fail to question Kerrey's assertion of a "constitutional right to bear arms," but she characterizes Kerrey's confusion on the Second Amendment as "tough."
Sen. Bryan's response to the NRA attack ad was similar to Kerrey's. Toner described Bryan's TV spot, in which his vote for the assault weapons ban was "defended by a local law-enforcement official--and an N.R.A. member: 'Dick Bryan is a strong supporter of our right to bear arms,' the official says."
Supreme Court Too Extreme?
Most journalists seem to feel no need to balance the NRA's constitutional claims. In a September 1994 cover story on the NRA for the New York Times Magazine (9/11/94), two months before the '94 elections, writer Philip Weiss quotes NRA officials without rebuttal on the Second Amendment:
* NRA leader Wayne LaPierre on gun ownership: "It's a birthright confirmed for us by the Constitution."
* The NRA's Tanya Metaksa on guns: "[They're] protected under the Bill of Rights of this country."
* Metaksa on the assault weapons ban: "We're trying to draw a line in the sand by telling the American people that if you trash the Second Amendment you're going to end up with a line in the sand that's way over here. You're going to have no way of defending yourself against a government that truly gets out of hand."
The lack of information in the press about the judicial interpretation of the Second Amendment is perhaps not surprising: A survey conducted in 1995 by the pro-gun Second Amendment Foundation showed that 69 percent of journalists polled agreed with the NRA that the Second Amendment protects the individual right to own a firearm.
This is not to say that most journalists support the NRA's anti-gun-control agenda. Most newspaper editorial pages supported passage of the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban. Many journalists apparently believe that an individual constitutional right to gun ownership exists under the Second Amendment, but see that right as subject to some reasonable regulation by the government.
This must seem to journalists like a safe and reasonable middle ground--between the "extremes" of the NRA and those who advocate comprehensive gun control. But staking out this position as the political center actually marginalizes the entire federal judiciary as too extreme to participate in the debate.
And there is no shortage of distinguished constitutional law scholars available to dispute the NRA's Second Amendment claims, including Harvard's Laurence Tribe, USC's Erwin Chemerinsky and Dennis Henigan, legal director of the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence in Washington.
Winless pitchers and hitless hitters seldom make the big leagues. Why should serious journalists continue to print as presumptive truth the NRA's view of the Second Amendment, when its record in the courts is no wins and all losses?
Howard Friel is editor of Aletheia Press, publisher of Guns and the Constitution: The Myth of Second Amendment Protection for Firearms in America (1996), and The Limits of Dissent: The Constitutional Status of Armed Civilian Militias (1996).
How the NRA Rewrote the Constitution
Conclusion
SIDEBAR:
What Is a Militia, Anyway?
Just as news media have been reluctant to challenge the constitutional claims of the N.R.A., some have also failed to question the claims of private paramilitary groups to be the "militias" whose right to bear arms is guaranteed by the Second Amendment.
While it's been argued that the Second Amendment's reference to "well-regulated militia" is ambiguous, the Constitution itself is quite explicit about what a militia is: Article 1, Section 8 gives Congress the power
to provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; [and] to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.
Article II, Section 2 makes the president the commander-in-chief of the militias when called into service of the United States--a fact that no doubt would dismay many self-proclaimed militia members.
In Presser v. Illinois (1886), a case which is still good law today, the Supreme Court ruled that "citizens of the United States have no right to associate together to drill or parade with arms, independent of any act of Congress or state law." In Vietnamese Fishermen v. Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (1982), a federal district court in Texas ruled, citing Presser, that "the Second Amendment does not imply any general constitutional right for individuals to bear arms or form private armies."
The militias mandated in the Constitution have, since 1903, taken the form of the National Guard. While many so-called militia leaders claim to be constitutionalists, their reading of the Constitution is dubious: The constitutional militias were formed to execute federal laws and suppress insurrections; many latter-day militias advocate ignoring federal laws and preparing for insurrection.
There it is folks.. you never had a constitutional right to bear arms as individuals .. you still don't.. the NRA just tells you and everyone else that you do and the government the politicians the the press don't have the balls to stand up to the NRA Aka The Godfather and do their jobs.. the gun slaughter will continue but they wont win forever..
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ..
Nice reply to yourself, "numbers". Do you masturbate often?
Truth is: The right to bear arms shall not be infringed.
Deal with it...
you should call your disgusting conservative.. or gun crazed sock troll
wow you have a butt load of socks don't you..
Memorials to the victims of gun violence seem to have already started. Many items will be placed and the various candle light ceremonies will be held no doubt... perhaps in an attempt to make folks feel better or to show empathy etc and to show that one is doing something.
Sadly though the thing that needs to be done will never be addressed. That thing being gun control i.e. controlling the proliferation of guns in the USA and around the world even into countries and communities that do not want these guns there.
Even the simpliest of thing as to require that background checks be done on all gun purchasers will not be done. Requiring that background checks be done on all persons selling guns will not be done. Requiring that all gun sales be recorded will not be done. Outlawing the sale of guns by non licensed gun dealers will not be done so things remain a free for all.
Making sure that the person purchasing the gun must pass a test- both written and oral as well as showing proficiency in the handling of the gun- will never be done.
You cannot adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter without the shelter checking the adoptor's home and background yet you can buy a gun and sally forth without any checks being done or the person's home to check that the weapon will be stored in a safe manner etc.
Keeping guns out of the hands of children will not be done even when said children are hurt i.e. end up killing some other child or sibbling or friend because the gun was not secured and the gun was not unloaded.
Why bother to discuss this incident as if it is something unusual or to pretend at shock at what occurred, when it was inevitable. If it was not at a cinema then it would be at somewhere else. It is more like looking for where gun violence has not occurred at and then try to secure those places, because we have seen gun violence even at churches to now a cinema.... so there is no where that is really safe these days.
Now you hear folks talking about more security at cinemas like there is already security at schools, govt buildings, other businesses. You now have laws where you can conceal carry even into places like starbucks, on university campuses and there are some businesses can't seem to simply say... heck no... not in my store or business.
Even as guns continue to proliferate and people are being killed every moment of the day, we keep locking up people for smoking maryj? We even have polititians defunding and underfunding the serve and protect folks and do not want to invest in the rebuilding of our infrastructure much less perhaps technology that would make it possible to log weapons sales. A car get stolen or sold and the vin number is there for the serve and protect folks to log and to check, yet we cannot do that with guns?
Now we have firefighter and police officers being laid off for lack of funding even as fires contine to increase and gun violence continue to increase even as we have polititians in congress passing yet another anti-reproductive rights law instead of addressing the pressing issues in our country like the jobs situation, the rebuilding of our infrastructure even as our bridges, roads, sewer and water pipes, electric grid, dams, levees, housing etc fall apart.
Can't bother to list the various things that needs to be done in this country, because many people already know what they are, and other folks chose not to know or recognize what they are until something happens that affects them, like the present drought in the farm belt and the heat wave with power outage on the east coast including Maryland, Virginia and DC, the fires in Colorado after the fires in Texas and the sand storms in Az or the earthquake that affected Maryland, Virginia and DC and the effects of fracking in PA, the black lung disease increasing in the coal mining areas and things like TB in Florida and increase of respiratory disease killing kid etc. But then another fillibuster of yet another jobs bill and trying to repeal the new ACA is supposedly more important to our t'pollititians in congress than dealing with the pressing issues in the country.
Why did this guy kill all those people ... who knows.. and after a while it will be business as usual, so it will eventually be who cares..... It is not as if it has not happened before not so long ago. Kathy Giffords can probably tell a tale or two, after all she as well as others are trying to put their lives back together and deal with the after effects of such gun violence and mass murder.
Gun violence has become so the norm these days....like remember Columbine and the Virginia Tech as well as that one in that library or where ever a year or two ago... as well as every day we hear of some person or persons being shot and/or killed like in the Trevon Martin case. But then we usually hear about the high profile cases, while the others are so everyday that one does not pay much attention anymore..... until the gun/weapons event affects a lot of people all at the same time.
Oddly and amazingly enough there does not seem to be a serious nationwide push back against the proliferation of guns and gun violence... makes one wonder why not...
We can secure our borders, land, sea and air, but what are we securing them from when it may be that the problem is already amoung us? The person next to you may be conceal carrying... so hmmm
Peace.... or rather, be safe....
Unless we realize that selling semiautomatic weapons and 600 rounds of ammunition to a person is not a "sport", this tragedy will be repeated.
The NRA rules, until our President and Congress decide that they have the power to limit their sales of guns in this country. Enough of the sales pitch of your "right to bear arms"
Nobody has the right to bear a semiautomatic weapon for any "sport". The only "sport" is to kill defenseless human beings or animals.
The problem with citing supreme court decisions from the past, is that sometimes they get it wrong too. Dred Scott comes to mind as a prime example.
More current rulings on 2A include District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), and McDonald v. Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020 (2010). Both decisions held that it is a personal right.
Now all that aside, what we really need is a better way of identifying people who are risk for committing violent acts - regardless of the instrument that they use.
I knew it, it wouldnt take very long before some self-rightious Political nut would immeditatly bring Politics into this horrible mess when the president and Romney..both political sides called for civility, and to stop Political bashing over this tragedy. Primenumbers..that hatred you hold? i sure hope you dont have any guns, propane canisters or gasoline cans..we dont need this crap at this time.
would immeditatly bring Politics into this horrible mess when the president and Romney
Sadly, it does have EVERYTHING to do with politics. More people are going to die if we don't talk about the politics of gun restriction. Also, people should not have access to tear gas, and all the other junk that this madman bought ON LINE???
It really needs to be discussed.
i have only one ? for numbers do you have any hobbies?
Hey Prime, This page is supposed to be a page for mourning, and condolences. Not for your own B.S. Reterec! You try to sound oh so big & smart, whereas you make yourself small minded and with little to no heart or concience! Please grow up kid!
Primenumbers - Save it for those that have never read interpretations of the 2nd Ammendment by the people that wrote it, Presidents who supported it, and the Supreme Court that has clarified it for those wanting to take it away like you The PURPOSE of the second is to enable citizens of the United States to be able to defend themselves from tyranny AT HOME AND ABROAD, and to never again find itself in a position like our forefathers did facing the British. It is also to provide law-abiding citizens the means to protect themselves and their families from monsters like Holmes. This tragedy is not about the Bill of Rights or political agendas, it's about recognizing innocent victims by yet another butcher spawned in a society that has lost it's moral compass, abandoned consequences for one's action, placed self over family, religion, and country, and is floundering around trying to understand why things like this happen. Irrespond - they HAS been discussion, too much discussion. It's not about guns-its' about PEOPLE. I'm so tired of people that do not make PEOPLE responsible for their actions, blame guns, the NRA, John Wayne, the government, and just about everybody else for the actions of PEOPLE, and seem to think the problems of abberations like Holmes will go away if we punish everyone else that happens to be law-abiding. Only in the Land of Oz. If one person, ONE, had had a weapon within range of Holmes friggin head there might not be a bunch of young people waiting to be buried.
Once again, Numbers, you left out the facts that don't fit into your own private fanatsy.
Heller v Washington DC
And
McDonald v Chicago
In both cases the SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES ruled that the Second Amendment DOES INDEED pertain to the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms.
Deal with it.
Isn't it funny how an incident like this brings the anti-gun fanatics out of the woodwork? Not just the politicians(they never miss an opportunity to use a tragedy to their advantage after all) but the regular gun haters too?
Yeah PrimeNumbers, I'm referring to you. People like you make me laugh and make me sad at the same time. You make me laugh because your comments are obviously lacking in basic critical thinking, show a serious lack of intelligent thought and are just all around absurd.
You make me sad because there are so many of you and it makes me wonder whether the human race will ever grow a brain and whether people like you were ever taught basic critical thinking skills. It sure doesn't look like it from here.
Here's a few REAL facts for you to chew on genius:
Fact: NO law would have prevented this tragedy other than banning all guns...and THAT is never going to happen. Like others have said...deal with it. Neither you, the other anti-gun fanatics nor the government has any legitimate right to attempt to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Try it and see what happens.
Fact: NO law will ever stop someone from killing another person or a hundred people if they are that determined to kill. Sorry cupcake but the human race has a penchant for violence and that isn't going to change until people learn to control their emotions...so basically, never.
Those two facts alone are inarguable, but I know you and the other anti-gun clowns will attempt it anyway. I can always use a good laugh.
I have been reluctant to comment on the shootings because the incident is so sad, needless and overwhelming for me to comprehend. And I was a nurse for many years. The last of my nursing career, was spent as a hospice nurse.
I agree the constitution has been abused when it come to carrying weapons. I do not believe our fore fathers, meant for everyone or anyone to carry a weapon. I do believe the amendment was meant to allow people to be armed when their was a state of emergency and our local, state or country was under a state of chaos or revolution. That being said, if why is it necessary for a person to carry a weapon that can keep or injure many people, in a short period of time? Who needs a an A-K 47 to go hunting?
My thought is, if a person wants to own a gun, so be it. Give one to everyone who wants one! BUT, every bullit should cost a thousand dollars each! This is not my idea, I heard a comedian say something similar. I laughed at the time but it makes sense. The Constitution might allow for citizens to carry weapons, but it does not mention anything about the weapons being loaded!
I agree with the "Wizard", bannig guns and laws against killing will not stop massacres like this one. People are emotional human beings. Some get their revenge by killing. This young man, as many others before him, decided to take his anger out on innocent people.
And that it where I would like to say, I am sorry. I am sorry for those who were murdered and those who were injured. I am sorry for the victims loved ones. I am sorry, that our society, has become so fearful, they feel, they have to carry a gun, to be safe. I am sorry that our society is right.
I wish everyone well and I hope those who were injured, a speedy recovery. And for all those who lost a loved one, I am deeply sorry. I believe the majority of people are decent human beings. It only takes one, to ruin so many lives.
One factor that is totally being ignored is the drug factor these Prozac and Zoloft type drugs hit the scene in the 80's given to kids. These same kids started rampages in the 90's until now. these drugs were never intended for kids now if you know any biology one would know the brain is not developed until your much older and taking these drugs is rewiring these kids brains permanently this is not theory this is fact. None of the shooters in the rampages is very old many kids and students take the drugs to enhance studying needing more and more to achieve the same affect. I know this first hand my kids have all gone to high school and Universities. Professors at UC Davis say it is crazy medicine. I emailed US Senator Feinstein about the drugs and the shootings, she emailed me back that the FDA is putting a black box marker saying it causes suicidal thoughts. Some of these anti-depressants have the opposite effect and make people super depressed. Every kid in the neighborhood on these drugs is totally messed up, they cannot join the military or have critical jobs and I hate to say it as a gun owner, they should not own firearms. Their are two tragedies in America the shooting of innocent victims and the drugging and abusing of millions of innocent children destroying the next generation!
Our thoughts, prayers and hope for speedy recoveries of the injured in Aurora. The State of Colorado and our great Republic have been hurt by this tragedy. But as a nation we will survive this and we will move on to make it a better place.
That's what America does!
I am eternally grateful for your contribution, "primenumbers"! Yes, "The Truth" is actually out there, above all the ESSENTIAL FACT that the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE POTENTIALLY FACES FUTURE EXTINCTION at the hands of outside offensive totalitarian ETs, who covertly installed all three of these corrupt Abrahamic religions into our world, while repeatedly masquerading as Divinity toward mankind. These corrupt Abrahamic religions are all critical components of a larger ET designed PWMD, or Program Weapon of Mass Destruction, which is designed to crash and explode our emerging human world in a final programmed cataclysm of global warfare fueled with WMDs, known as the Christian Apocalypse or World War III. These outside offensive totalitarian ETs want to use their eminent domain rights of military intervention in our sector of the Milky Way galaxy, to move in on our emerging human world in and take it over, while once more masquerading as Divinity toward mankind, this time as the returning Christ or Messiah. They were forced to take this covert approach at territorial conquest because Free Galaxy powers reside elsewhere in our Milky Way galaxy, who currently stand in the way of overt military conquest on a stellar level. I personally know all of this because I personally resided at Wright Patterson Air Force base from 1951 to 1953, while my grandfather was second in command there, and he was personally involved in the background investigation into the Roswell Incident of 1947. The real "Gospel" or "Good News" is that mankind potentially has countless millions (even billions) of years of growth, development and expansion ahead of them, so long as they don't fall for these ET designed and installed terminal religious belief systems. Please listen to me, mankind, BEFORE it is too late !!! - Rick Carter
Judy The Ornery:
If our forefathers would have intended restrictions on gun ownership, which our government has unconstitutionally added (amendments can only be changed with another amendment); such as, types and who could or couldn't own guns (felons), they would have spelled it out.
Do you believe if our country was to go into revolutionary mode, the government would allow arms to be sold to the people? The Second Amendment was written as a protection for the people, including protection from our own government. Doesn't it concern you that our military is allowed to have weapons of mass destruction that can be turned against their own people? Please don't say the military would never do that. History does repeat itself (Civil War). Military inspired drones, used for combat in foreign countries with the capability of killing without the victim even knowing who, where or what hit them, are already being activated against our own population.
There will always be tragedies, but those tragedies should not be used as an excuse to remove the rights and power of the people to defend against their enemy; whoever that enemy may be.
If someone wants to hurt others, they don't need guns:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway
Ant:
Yes they do. However, you don't have to go back over 100 years to Dred Scott. You only have to look back a couple of weeks to Obamacare.
The difference is that in the case of gun right of individuals, there is a clear right specifically addressing arms that is in the US Constitution, regardless of what other wanna-be constitutional scholors on this blog would have you believe.
The Supreme Court has upheld that right on numerous occasions over the last 200 years, so there is a clear precedent to look back on.
I don't want guns in the hands of insane individuals anymore than anyone else does. The problem is that you will NEVER be able to regulate it so that will be the result. Guns have always been available to those that wish to obtain them, and regulation will not stop them if they wish to do so.
This is a typical rant by an ignorant anti-gun nut
Take 5 seconds and find the definition of milita.
10 USC § 311 - MILITIA: COMPOSITION AND CLASSES
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Now before you start ranting about how we're not well regulated....
The government tells us how much water we can use to flush our crap down the toilet, we're very well regulated.
I love how you left out the full definition and just published the National Guard part. Such intellectual honesty no wounder why people ignore and collapse you post. Lying or obscuring the truth will get you no where.
And yes the bulk of this law was made in 1903 but it was actually handed down since the early 1800;s
I get a kick out of the screwballs that say the 2nd amendment was meant for us to protect ourselves in times of crisis or revolution, and then in the next sentence say they don't understand why anyone would own a 30rd mag for an ak-47. Well, lets see, if a revolution started, or a hostile group trying to takeover my city, would I want my bolt action Rem 700 in .308, or my AR-15 with 5 30rd mags and red dot scope. Which one DO YOU THINK would keep me alive against on overwhelming force. And by the way, that AR-15 has take many deer and put much needed venison in my families stomach. Guns are great, they do great things, and there are great people that own them. Get on board and find a way to stop medical corps from pumping pills in us that make us crazy and leave the great gun owners of this country alone.
Ya know, Im not sure what to say here. :o( The sick-o that did this- Should be layed out, have his legs tied and spread apart and just shot with salt pellets in the groin area!! Let him flipping scream. Make him feel the pain that all the families of the victims are feeling right now!! Then lock him into a room and pour honey on his sorry butt, then cut loose around 100 killer bees!! Not to many tho, we want this jerk to suffer!!! My prayers go out to the families of the horrific act of violence :o(
Tornado, I'm certain what to say, here.
Flakes like primenumbers want to give us a nanny-state the like of which you've yet to comprehend. From the limitations on the size of your big gulp to the rounds I can carry in my weapon's magazine, they believe we can legislate political correctness.
If you believe in personal responsibility and freedom, vote this fall for the true American.
disgusting conservative has his yellow tighty whities in his crack over finding out what the real Second amendment says.. hahaha.. What happened to your GeorgeTroll sock where you were a homosexual about to bust out of the closet ?
Prime your moron you do know the shooter was a Democrat.
the shooter was a Democrat.
Gee! How do people get this info. so quick? What does it matter? We don't even know the motives of this massacre, and you are already categorizing him.
It does not matter. Neither side, Republican or Democrat are doing anything to limit the selling of semiautomatic weapons, since Bill Clinton did something about it.
From Wikipedia:
The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) (or Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act) was a subtitle of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a federal law in the United States that included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms, so called "assault weapons". There was no legal definition of "assault weapons" in the U.S. prior to the law's enactment. The 10-year ban was passed by Congress on September 13, 1994, and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment.
The Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired on September 13, 2004, as part of the law's sunset provision. There have been multiple attempts to renew the ban,[1] but no bill has reached the floor for a vote.
Prime is a moron. Don't give him/her the satisfaction of even making believe his crap matters. I just read the 2nd Amendment and he is wrong. But hey, 2 things 1, we already knew that, and 2 this page is supposed to be for showing heart. For showing love and simpathy & support to the victims and the victims families & friends. My Love & Prayers go out to all who suffered from this autrosity. May GOD comfort & heal them.
The problem with the AWB, is that it covered firearms mostly by how they looked, not by their capacity or rate of fire. There are many guns that were not covered by the AWB that used the same ammunition AND had the same capacity as guns that were covered by the AWB.
The AWB was a feel good piece of legislation.
One factor that is totally being ignored is the drug factor these Prozac and Zoloft type drugs hit the scene in the 80's given to kids. These same kids started rampages in the 90's until now. these drugs were never intended for kids now if you know any biology one would know the brain is not developed until your much older and taking these drugs is rewiring these kids brains permanently this is not theory this is fact. None of the shooters in the rampages is very old many kids and students take the drugs to enhance studying needing more and more to achieve the same affect. I know this first hand my kids have all gone to high school and Universities. Professors at UC Davis say it is crazy medicine. I emailed US Senator Feinstein about the drugs and the shootings, she emailed me back that the FDA is putting a black box marker saying it causes suicidal thoughts. Some of these anti-depressants have the opposite effect and make people super depressed. Every kid in the neighborhood on these drugs is totally messed up, they cannot join the military or have critical jobs and I hate to say it as a gun owner, they should not own firearms. Their are two tragedies in America the shooting of innocent victims and the drugging and abusing of millions of innocent children destroying the next generation!
Congress shall enact no laws that infringe upon these rights. Point counter point....
This is a very bad argument as the definition of militia has been the same for a very very very long time. Any able bodied male 17 to 45... Thank you for reaffirming that I am a part of the militia and as such I have a right to keep and carry arms..
Its nice of you to not post the all able bodies males 17 to 45 part.. Wonder why you have to lie?
Definition of Milita
10 USC § 311 - MILITIA: COMPOSITION AND CLASSES
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
educate yourself.
Most competition shooters go through thousands of bullets in a week. Most regular shooters go through about 300 each time. I have 10k rounds. .22 are sold by the 500 to 1000 pack at around $20 for 500. 9mm comes in winchester 100count white box at walmart for $15 or so. When it goes on sale, if you are a gun owner that actually target shoots or a hunter, you buy it in bulk. It's not unusual for people to by it by the case (for 9mm that's 1000 rounds). Since you're shooting 600 to 900 rounds a week you stock up to save some money. Just take some time to understand what you're discussing and why bulk ammo purchases are normal. Also take some time to realize that not one of the firearms used by this guy fired more than one shot per trigger pull, that is no different than a 1800's revolver! The magazine (it is not a clip almost no firearms have clips today) capacity means zero, ziltch. Anyone that has any real experience can drop and pop. That means if a magazine has say 10 rounds on firing the 9th round they release the magazine and let it drop to the floor while popping in the next one. This can be done and mastered very quickly. Magazine restrictions do almost nothing to stop and experience shooter from keeping her pace. Women are typically so good at this it makes most men jealous.
WE need to stop making emotional non-factual and intellectually dishonest statements. If you want to argue based on facts then do so but publishing half truths about the definition of militia. making it out like this guy had a machine gun when he did not, making to sound like 6,000 rounds is a tremedous amount of ammo, and bringing up say the Miller case int the supreme court where the guy that filed the law suit was dead and had no representation in front of SCOTUS. doesn't give you any credibility.
Most importantly.
All of the types of weapons this guy used were once or are part of the military/militia standard arms.
AGAIN..
10 USC § 311 - MILITIA: COMPOSITION AND CLASSES
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
We are well regulated by congress. Like I said previously, congress regulates what we can eat, sleep on, construct, our health care services and even how much water we can use to flush our crap down the toilet.
The pain will never go away for those directly affected and people in general will be reminded of it for the rest of their lives, the news media doesn't need to portray this as anything other (Like still), yes still.
I also wouldn't single out America as a leader in mass killing, Norway, Russia, Mexico, anywhere in the Middle East in fact some countries are more sophisticated than we, but I don't care about other countries I still think we can fix this problem.
I don't usually comment on news stories where there is a large and grievous death of Human life. But too many herein are making this a gun control issue. This isn't a gun control issue. It is a mass murder issue. Otherwise, suicide bombs being outlawed in the M.E. would end murders by suicide bombers. No.
People of whom have and shall harm others have always been on the planet. And those killers will always be on this planet in future, pending a complete change in the the Human genome-brain-connection to anti-social behaviors.
What took place in Aurora, CO, is sad by any standards. And saddest for those whom must live now each day with this tragedy, both directly and indirectly.
One constant is that this shall happen again, and again, in the future, and in other locales. Until that day when we as Humans have evolved to overcome murder, and thoughts of murder, at the very center of our psyche/souls. And that is, unfortunately, is unlegislatable.
Hey Tornado hunter, are you from Israel?
If the theater handed out .357mag revolvers with the 3D glasses, this guy would have been toast. Why don't they do that? Guns are a great, great, great part of our culture, and I am proud to own them. My AR-15 has taken many deer and feeds my family with organic venison. AND, if there is a hostile takeover I can grab 5 30rd mags of armor piercing ammo and give myself and family a chance to survive. Until that happens I will just continue to be a law abiding gun owner who feeds his family with his AR. Now, if you jags can't get over that, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Oh, yeah, why don't you libs go after your precious drug makers that have put so much crap in our systems that we our bound to have a couple of crazies trying to kill everyone. Your on the wrong side of the fence.
This is a horrible tragedy, but gun control is not any answer. Remember Clinton tried it, failed horribly, it doesn't work, so lets just move on from that. Also, I do believe the two most recent mass killings done in this country was done by airliners and the Oklahoma bombing. Not one gun involved. Sooooooo people, take the prescription meds off the market, quit trying to convince everyone that they have some mental disorder that requires a pill, AND BUY MORE GUNS to protect yourselves.
Is there anything in the constitution about the modern bullets and clips being legal?
Anyhoo seeing that there is no will to control guns it is time to control bullets.
How about you can buy any amount of guns you want but you must go to a licensed bullet shop to purchase bullets? Perhaps bullets should cost 50 dollar per bullet. Or tax the deathrate out of them.
Isn't it odd that a child was killed by a drunk driver or by someone driving drunk and MADD i.e. Mothers Against Drunk Driving was born, yet kids get killed everyday and there is no MAGV or Mothers Against Gun Violence?
Isn't it odd that there are those who are saying that the President should do something about the gun issue yet none of these talking heads or others are calling for Congress to address the issue of gun violence and gun control?
Everyday you hear the President must do this, the President must do that as if Congress has no role in governance of this country... Perhaps they are right as this present T'Congress is not doing anything except say no and fillibustering everything that is not anti-reproductive rights based.
Another thing is that you would believe that all these mass murder by a gun man is just something that has been happening since 2008..... Columbine was about 13 years ago and since that time we have had many other mass killings too so why is it that this President must do something about gun violence yet other Presidents were not asked to do anything about gun violence?
Come to think about it what are regular folks doing about the gun violence that is becoming more frequent as gun laws become more lax?
We have laws against drunk driving, driving over the speed limit, buying sudafed etc, tobacco/alcohol and even about driving while using a cell phone or driving without using one's seatbelt........ but guns and bullets?
Anyhoo, ...... what ev... sigh...
Peace.... or rather be safe...... the twitchy or supercalm person next to you may be conceal carrying....
poor
DisgustedConservative
no gun .. it violates his parole from Juvey
@primenumbers,
Did you copy and paste your comment from fair.org/extra/9609/2ndamendment.html?
Primenumbers - you may be interested in an article I just posted to Newsvine a few weeks ago, I think you'll agree with most of what I have to say:
http://thelunatic.newsvine.com/_news/2012/07/02/12524132-americans-and-their-guns
I read part of your article, and saved it to read later. In part I do agree with you. I have long advocated that upon the age of 18, or emediately upon graduation from Highschool, men & women physically and mentally capable should enter their choice of military for 2 or more years. Upon release from the military they would be required to be in the inactive reserve indefinately. Also upon release from active duty, the government should give equal time in college if individual wishes to attend.That way you have an unstoppable military force in the event of invasion, and a well educated society. The best of both worlds. Also our 2nd amendment is totally protedcted.
Everyone just ignor the onesided comments, if Prime thinks its ok to come in here and bash people because they have different political views than thats her right, freedom of speech, what youcan do is not fuel the fire,
Ignor the Ignorant
just sayin..
Prime numbers was given prime time at the top over and over again to repeat his rant to smother out other voices of dissension. He got up real early in the morning and like any fascist liberal intended to take up several pages with his opinion to quell any speech thankfully many of his control lecturing was compressed as to allow others a voice. I lived in Aurora I used to go to that theater I carry and have a concealed licence. The part in the constitution that the anti-gunners forget is the right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shale not be infringed. I bear my arms whats the point of having a gun stuck in your closet safe. It is worthless no one will stop a gun rampage we have 200 million guns out there and 99% are collecting dust in a closet. You don't hear about rampage shootings at Donut shops because there is a high chance a cop will be their. No one walks around with a nice little concealed handgun accurate fast response great for close quarters. I do a lot of shooting and training and I carry wherever I go, legally. I am not on Prozac I am a normal healthy man. You want me in your neighborhood theater you want millions of guys and gals like me walking around bearing arms as intended by the constitution. Normal healthy able bodied! The constitution wasb not intended for courts or judges it is a right of the people.
Look at a world without guns before guns were made was it a utopia of goodness. Think of the Vikings the Mongols and so many others the facts tell the truth even if only the police had guns how fast can they get there 5 mins 10 mins or in Detroits case 9 hours the physically strong would rule over the weak the young the old the women no offence and any one sick or not as strong as the bad group or one person that attacks them guns make the strong stronger but guns make the weak just as strong
God made men but Guns make them equal
wpbf.com/news/south-florida/Palm-Beach-County-News/Deputies-Teen-burglary-suspect-shot-by-resident/-/8815578/15618394/-/w8u410/-/index.html
myfoxdetroit.com/story/19070227/elderly-homeowner-shoots-and-kills-intruder
mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2012/06/66-year-old_woman_who_shot_int.html
foxnews.com/us/2012/07/18/florida-customer-shoots-suspects-during-internet-cafe-robbery/
are these lives worth less then the victims in this crime
Yes, there have been instances when having a gun has protected people from attackers and robbers - but statistically they are the exception. People who own firearms are more likely to injure themselves with their gun, or have it taken and used against them. Have you seen the article by "The Lunatic" in comment 3.2 above? Everyone in the world should read this.
truth is no one remembers what a bunch of crazy guys with swords and spears and knives could do but you are 100 percent right. In the war against Hitler the US would air drop guns to the civilians in Germany. They cry guns kill but the truth like someone else posted PEOPLE (sick minded people) kill people period.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
PrimeNumbers.. Calm down. Use logic and full facts to argue your emotional disgust of firearms and stop insulting others. Take some time to google. Take some time to understand where gun lovers are coming from first. Your knee jerking half truths aren't going to get you to understand the situation and basically just make you have zero impact or influence on anyone.
Guns do not kill people because people kill people based on their judgment which means they rot in hell etc believe in Hinduism then their are actually levels to hell.
Meanwhile Chicago has had 300 deaths this year. Through July 19, this year's murder rate is up 31% from last year, with 289 Chicagoans killed.
How about addressing what makes people feel weak in the first place?
Sure, people have always killed each other, now it;s just a whole lot easier and gun marketers are making huge profits from selling and promoting arms.
Interestingly, here's a relavant article that was just posted today:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/22/12890014-cop-shoots-and-kills-son-after-reportedly-mistaking-him-for-an-intruder
Evil exists. Evil will always exist. People who don't believe in a peaceful God resort to violence. Atheists, Islamic Extremists, Ignorant Christian Extremists, .... anyone who doesn't respect life or the opinions of other people can become evil. When your life moral does not respect life, you can be a killer. When your life moral doesn't accept the beliefs of others, you can be a killer - Atheists, religious extremists, liberal fetus killers are all potential evil doers - they believe in an excuse to kill a human being. Obama is evil. But the world now knows that.
Got a kick out of the last 2 sentences, Jamie. And at least you aren't afraid to use your name. Most use made up names like Primenumbers.
Jamie - religion is immoral. 'god' is an idiotic idea promoted by immoral religious people.
Are you kidding me? Well, thank you for the laugh of the day! I needed it, really!
Thanks for showing your ignorance in including Atheists in your list of evil. Just because we don't believe in your delusion, we are then evil. I'm sure that you think that human morality arrived at Mt. Sinai with Moses (a character whose actual existence is in great doubt). And you also believe in "the Christ" who's fictional origins are equal to Mithra and many other gods of antiquity.
The fact is that there are more x-tians in prisons than Atheists. Atheists are lowest of all groups in divorce rates, and domestic violence. I have been married to my Atheist wife for 30 years. I am 60 years old. Christianity has been the cause of more deaths than all the plagues ever to infect the Earth. Religion itself is the major reason for all the wars in the world. And you have the audacity to say that we as Atheists are evil. Christianity, which is based on falsehoods is the greatest evil ever to posses the minds of mankind. I think you should apologize.
I also find it disgusting that in a tragedy like in Aurora, the X-tians drag their crosses out to build a monument to the dead, which is an insult to the dead who held a different or no belief. But the arrogance of Christians such as yourself show no respect to differing philosophies because you believe as you do without a shred of evidence. You also pray to a god who wasn't there to prevent the tragedy, yet you think it is going to be there to heal the wounded and comfort their families.
Give me a damn break. Christians like you are disgusting and a blight on our great and secular nation.
The killer was a christian. Of course his fellow members of the flock will be full of excuses.
Wrong Homy, GOD is alive and well. Evil will exist till JESUS comes back & kicks Satin's butt into the lake of fire!!!
Atheists are the devil in disguise. They are evil in its purest form. They should not be allowed anywhere, they create havoc and spread lies all under the guise of being sensible and realistic. Don't fall for it.
Let Hollywood and all theater chain corps invest in turning this one theater into a memorial museum for all the victims of this tragedy. If I were in Denver in the future, that is one place I'd pay to visit to breathe a prayer as I learn about each of the victims. Show us thru photos the lives the deceased had, if their families choose to share with us. Keep updating the photos and bios of those who survived. We The People need to heal from another senseless tragedy...especially the families and friends of all these victims. My sincere condolences to all families touched by this horrible moment in time.
Condolences to the families of all the victims. Guns allowed this murderer to kill and wound more people, but if guns were not available, he would have used something else. People intent on causing chaos will do it with whatever they can. Colorado has not had any luck in these cases. Columbine was 21 miles away. I guarantee there were signs of some type. Using this tragedy as a political ploy about gun control is uncalled for. The familes need the support of all of us. Don't let this turn into a political bunch of junk.
These whiners already are trying to make it political gunner. By the way, you army, marine, navy, or air? Me I'm retired Army/ 7 active 21 reserves & National Guard.
Yes that gun took over that young mans mind and made him purchase it and many more and then the gun said go out and buy 6000 rounds of ammo and booby trap your room. Actually what really probably happened the kid was studying burning out 8 hour sessions and maxed out his drugs he became super depressed and lonely. depressed people normally kill themselves but sometimes the depressed Prozac kids go on rampages and these drug induced rampages will continue. GET RID OF THE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS!!!!!
Gunner, I don't buy that if guns weren't available that he WOULD have used something else. None of us can know that for sure. I'm not making that statement for a call to take guns away from citizens, quite the contrary. However, there is absolutely no reason for any reasonable or law abiding citizen to own an assault rifle, AK47, etc. If you're well trained in handling and using firearms, a six shooter will suffice for most criminal assaults. Why can't we have an intelligent conversation about gun control while protecting the 2nd Amendment. Most see the issue as all or nothing. There is no reason we cannot have assault weapons unavailable to the average citizen while still allowing them to own a gun or rifle. Having said that, realistically speaking I also believe it is probably too late for that conversation as there are too many assault weapons already out there in criminal hands. Even if they are banned, there is virtually no way to take them all off the streets.
Even if there were signs, how many would have honestly picked up those signs. Too many people are so consumed with positive and negative events in their own lives that many would have never seen it coming.
Many on both sides are using this tragedy as a political ploy over gun control and many care more about advancing their agendas than supporting those affected by this senseless act. Just as appalling are those speculating as to the cause behind the attack. In the days and weeks to come, we will come to find out more. We all need to use this time to pray for the victims and their families. We should be supporting them in whatever moralistic way we can. Debating gun control now does nothing to help the victims.
Actually we can easily know. He set up bombs in his apartment. he obviously had the knowledge to use them in the theater as well. I'm sure he contemplated it.
Some food for thought on that one:
You will survive most automobile accidents just fine without a seatbelt, as the vast majority are in parking lots, low speed fender benders, or hitting deer. It's the relatively rare high speed impacts that impale passengers against the inside of the vehicle or eject them through the windshield or windows.
Something like 95 percent of all tornadoes are EF-2 strength with winds of roughly 135 mph or so, which will tear off roofs and siding, blow out windows, etc., but usually will not blow a house away or even collapse it. If you don't seek shelter in a basement, you will probably survive most tornadoes, just not the rare EF-3, -4, or -5 ones, especially the EF-5 'finger of God' ones that wipe everything off the face of the earth. But those are only like 1% of all tornadoes, so why worry when the sirens start blowing?
Now, back to personal protection, most criminal assaults can be stopped by making loud noise (screaming or blowing a loud whistle or horn), and a face full of pepper spray will cause most attackers to flee.
The problem is, there is a percentage who, for whatever the reason, will not be stopped due to the state they're in, be it enraged, psychotic, drugged, or whatever. They're at a total loss to understand just what they're doing, they feel no pain, or who knows what. Sometimes, there are multiple assailants, and sometimes conditions are such that one or two well placed rounds just don't seem to 'drop' them right away, or else hitting them with bullets just isn't happening.
There is a reason that very few law enforcement agencies still issue revolvers. Among the last that I am aware of were more on the order of facility guards (state capitol building in my home state issued .38 revolvers up until quite recently, or maybe they still do...) who, if they ever needed to engage an assailant, were in a very hospitable, well lit, climate controlled indoor environment that was pretty well secured in the first place. Out in the rest of the world, you can encounter all kinds of situations. In cases where a criminal assault places a bona fide threat to one's life or puts them at peril of being severely wounded or disabled, there is roughly an 85% chance that the incident will occur in low light to near total darkness. That greatly complicates things, especially when your attacker is dressed in dark or dull colored clothing...the sights on your weapon are tough to see at night, but trying to even just align the barrel of your handgun with a murky shadow in the dark to get an effective shot in is extremely challenging at best. Well trained and equipped people who carry guns will be using a high quality tactical light, but that definitely has some real disadvantages, too. You light things up, release the switch, then move away from where you were so any shots at your light go where you were, not where you are. Problem is, after you've moved, your position relative to your assailant has now changed, and odds are good they've moved too. You've identified your assailant as a 'bad guy' with a weapon, but that's about all you've gained much of the time. You're still in the dark again.
Well trained officers often have a tough time in a 'running' gun battle as both the officer and the suspects are on the move while firing at each other. Quite often, shots that are fired mostly end up as near misses.
Chain link fences really screw things up. Aimed shots through them get fouled up but good, so six or ten aimed shots may ultimately miss after hitting the chain link and being deflected off in different directions. Unfortunately, when they're shooting at you, they may not really be aiming, just shooting. Doesn't really matter in that any of those bullets can still hit you, including ones that would have missed that may have hit the wire and be deflected in your direction. You are still facing a lethal threat that needs to be stopped immediately. You don't really have any choice but to keep firing until you can get behind solid cover, you run out of ammunition, he runs out of ammunition, or else you're hit badly enough you can't fire or seek shelter.
See how this can be?
Now, that having been said, my take on high capacity or extended capacity magazines is that people who know what they're doing generally don't mess with them and some public education could very well make a lot of less informed people wake up and realize that most of them are junk. Drum magazines have virtually never been reliable and have always been awkward, expensive, gadgets. There's a reason that the US Government never bought into the drum magazines for the Thompson submachine gun, which were an expensive, cumbersome option that was highly overrated. They were tough to load and took several minutes and what seemed like three hands to fit to the gun, where the standard 20 round box magazine dropped at the press of a lever and a new one would snap right into place. The major weakness of most automatic and semi automatic firearms has always been the magazine, and the AR-15/M16 design is not at all an exception to this. The 100 round drums that can be bought for them really are expensive 'toys' meant for the crowd that has registered full auto 'M16' (as the BATFE identifies them) 'machine guns'. A favorite activity for these folks is to attend exhibitions where they blast away with these guns, often at night, with a crowd watching. It's for show, and it's very impressive. If it jams, breaks, or whatever, well, it was just a show. No lives were at stake! The military and law enforcement agencies stick with what works - either Colt 20 round straight magazines or else the USGI 30 round aluminum contract magazines that are Teflon coated in and out and have a high quality spring and follower. Sadly, even the Colt branded magazines that were 10, 9, 5, or whatever other reduced capacity there could be were also generally junk and most were pitched as soon as people who had them could get a reliable 20 or 30 round magazine.
The thought has crossed my mind that perhaps Holmes bought the drum magazine for a hundred and whatever dollars they go for because he didn't feel confident he had the manual of arms for the Smith and Wesson M&P15 he'd purchased figured out yet. It's not that it's difficult, but it does take a bit of getting used to, which takes doing it. He may not have had much, if any, opportunity to go out and actually shoot any of these guns prior to his massacre. He could have had at least ten USGI magazines for what he paid for the piece of garbage drum magazine he bought, and that could hold 300 rounds of ammunition, instead of 100.
As a victim-survivor of horrors like this, the media is correct. Those of us who were there and our friends and families don't have feeling concerning the loved ones cut down at the age of 5, 10 or 21. The newscasters able to create in everyone's minds the incredible horror, pain and turmoil that our loved ones must have endured in the final moments of their life, are sure to placate us in our time of grief. We will carry with us every day the graphic descriptions by news video and print repeated over and over of the blood shed, the splatters of blood on those running from the scene and wonder, "Could it have been our babies blood that covers them?"
Thank You. Thank You for reminding us that we can't keep them safe. Thank you for showing repeatedly that they died in agony and pain. Thank you for telling us about the chaos and no one stopping to help those injured. Thank you for letting me know that my baby died with no one there at the final moments. Thank you for giving us images that will last a lifetime of blood splattered seats, blood covered people and pools of blood with no one helping those we brought into this world and loved so dearly.
The 2nd Amendment is not about giving governments the right to keep and bear arms. It recognizes the individuals right to possess the means to protect themselves, their community and their state. There will always be those like 'primenumbers' who have a political agenda and are more than willing to exploit the pain and suffering of innocents to further their goals, much like certain members of the media who tried to link this murderer to the tea party. There is really something wrong inside some of these people.
OK... What's your solution to the gun violence in this country. Look at the stats.
First off, calling it gun violence is transfering the responsibilty for the act onto the object or method used. Do we blame the many thousands of deaths caused by drunk drivers on alcohol or on the person who chose to drink then get behind the wheel of a car? What about the thousands stabbed by knives or beaten to death with baseball bats and clubs? Or the tens of thousands killed by reckless, speeding or road raging drivers? Maybe we need to do something about cars that are capable of exceeding the speed limit? Get rid of knives and baseball bats? I have been in law enforcement for over 22 years and seen it all. Evil people will continue to kill and maim others regardless how many rights we take away from the law abiding and will always find a way to do so. We need to try to figure out why a small percentage are committing more heinous and senseless acts of violence than decades ago. Concentrating on a tool used will not fix anything.
stabbed by knives or beaten to death with baseball bats
OK..You are comparing apples and oranges. How many people can you kill at one time with a bat or a knife? Also, most of the time, when a drunk driver kills people, is not intentionally. He/She does not get in the car thinking: I am going to kill a family today. It is still an accident, regardless of the fact that it was preventable.
Thankyou Navy. You wrote in just a few lines what I was unable to express
To Irespond. In answer to your question; not so many. But, If some evil person decides to commit mass murder, they don't need a gun. all they need is their mind. Under the sink are chemicals that can make bombs, poison gas, and go to the gas station w/bottles to make molotov cocktails. I do not advocate violence and especially not murder, but to make a point in answer to your querry, those are just a couple of examples. Murder is not in a gun, it is in the hearts and minds of evil men and women. Rid yourselves of the evil in your hearts.
As a legal and responsible gun owner, I am sure I am considered
by some as a “gun nut”. My wife and I
own three pistols and one rifle. We go
to the shooting range and practice and even though we both have concealed
weapons permits, we only carry at certain times, and that is when we travel.
We don’t own any semi-automatic weapons, as we have no need,
but if I wanted to buy one, I should have the right…. As a retired military officer, I defended the
Constitution to preserve that right…..
Many want to punish legal owners and operators of guns,
through tighter gun control laws….. Well
let me ask you this…. If you are so
worried about it, why don’t you push for law enforcement and sentences that fit
the crimes…
This John Holmes, killed people, but when the police
arrived, he just gave up, he was waiting at his car…… a coward….
But now we will hear that he is insane because his daddy did
not play catch with him, or that his daddy did not bounce him on his knee, or
his mother did not breast feed him…..
My answer to the cowards, after conviction, a strong rope
and solid tree, and let him hang until he rots.
He planned it for months, not only did he kill the people in the theater,
planned to kill the police entering his apartment and his neighbors….. well planned and executed….
Want to stop crime; stop protecting criminals…… actions
should have consequences…….
Sorry, Navy Vet, but a gun has a potential to harm a ton more people (as seen recently), than drunk drivers, crazy drivers, knives, clubs, etc. He had assault weapons. 6,000 rounds. Put 2 and 2 together.... It's a serious problem.
@AndyG-834134 - I'm all for punishments to fit the crime... Unfortunately, that push doesn't hit the core of the problem.
That's like putting more law enforcement officers on a busy highway that has a high accident rate and a high fatality rate. The officer isn't going to prevent them from happening. Hit the problem at the core - Improve/widen the highway. Not the best analogy, but you have to hit these problems at the core.
In my state, there is an over abundance of deer. With the economy like it is, I know a few people who kill deer and use the deer meat to feed their families. Most of these deer killers use guns for that purpose. Should they not be able lto purchase rifles? Also, some people have handguns for protection. They may never use them, but they feel safer having one available. There was a time when you did not worry about locking your doors; those days are gone -- not necessarily because of guns, but because of people who do drugs and are after money for more drugs.
Primenumbers, excellent, well thought and written post. Good arguements and facts provided. While I don't agree with your particular viewpoint, I give credit where credit is due. Personaly, I think part of this country's problem is that we care about how a court views the Constitution, versus the views of the writers. There are many people who seem to think our founding fathers only took pen to paper that day, and that day only. From the federalist papers, to college lectures, personal books, diaries....it is all quite clear what our founding fathers intended for this country, and why they used the language they did. While some don't like this view due to personal agendas, I believe its the best for all, my opinion.
What I don't understand is why you posted it at all. A person who wishes to do carnage, will do carnage. One could argue that he bought the guns legally, and we need gun control. Another could argue if a responsible gun owner had the right to carry a gun into that theater legally, that the death and injury count would be lower. Neither opinion helps the victims.
If you wish to take on a political cause out of all this mess how bout this.
"Mary" a woman I work with, has 8 children. She gets 1800 a month in food stamps, only pays 66 bucks a month for a 3 bedroom apartment. Her 14 year old son made her a grandmother, which she got custody of, with the state of course paying her 600 a month to take care of her own grandchild. Her insurance is free, we pay for all the programs her kids are in, childcare, and feed them twice a day at school. "Mary" has a new i-phone, a new tablet, and has added to her tattoo collection several times, plus she drives a newer car than I bet 70% of those who will post. Don't be sad about all those kids cramped in a 3 bedroom apartment, "Mary" just got a grant for 25,000 to buy a house, refurbished, at a special interest rate, with a tax abattement package to boot.
Meanwhile, The Affordable Healthcare Act, oddly named cause it does nothing about cost of healthcare, barely even addresses the serious problem we have in this country with addressing mental illness.
I am sure I will be called a right wing nut job, (I'm independant thank you), a fox news freak, (which will also be applied as Fox lies, Faux news,and a few other variants....btw, I dont have cable TV) and a racist ("Mary" is quite white) for the simple suggestion that we quit giving out freebies to people and actually spend out tax dollars for the greater good of society in mental care to prevent horrid events
You're lying, perpetuating the myth of the "welfare queen." My grandmother is getting by on $718 / month, $159 in food stamps, and Medicaid / Medicare. She pays $385 / month for an apartment, $110 / month for her electric bill (heating and cooling), and the rest goes for the food, hygiene supplies, and other most basic necessities. And that's the way everyone lives who lives on the system because of disabilities.
Spare us the modified version of the mythical "welfare queen." You only bring disgrace upon your own party line by resorting to deception to further your warped agenda.
As for you being a right-wing nut job, I didn't say it. You did.
It wasn't written by primenumbers. It was copied and pasted from fair.org/extra/9609/2ndamendment.html. If you google:
"On April 5, 1996, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit handed down its ruling in Hickman v. City of Los Angeles."
It will take you to a link to email the article, which looks like it was written in 1996.
Hickman vs. los Angeles never made it to the supreme court.. It would be very different today, actually that's what the hiller case started to do, make the supreme court hear such cases...
I agree with how frustrating it is to see people like Mary living better than you. Believe me. But rememebr that "Mary" is not the norm of people on welfare . Really she is not. So don't flush the baby with the bathwater.
and two -- the threshholds that qualify a person for help are extremely low -- ridiculously low --- so that people who also really need it do not qualify - and people who make a career of working the system (again, not the majority - and heck -- corporations and their lawyers work the system too) live like Mary.
I say increase the threshold for eligibility on health insurance and even foodstamps so regular working people who are being gouged by private business can afford a decent life- and stop people using housing/real estate to get rich at the expense of others from gouging renters so people can afford a decent place to live. Help US buy a house. That is what the tax system we all pay into should be doing- not wasted in billions on crony defense contracts.
Shandril
Don't you have dishes to wash? People kill people not guns. As long as the Republican Party and the NRA work together we will have our freedom to have our guns and Protect ourselves.
I blame Mexicans for the tragedy. You may say why? well! simple the bring drugs to the country and most likely this dude was on dope. Lets have our guns and protect ourselves against The Mexicans Taco eaters drug dealers.
"Mary" might have many friends that donate her iphone,ect... I drive a 2011 Acura, so the "Mary's" in the world really don't affect how I feel about life, nor do I use them to make excuses for myself. Give it a try, because the fastest way to unhappiness is to compare yourself to someone else. Or have eight children of your own and ask her advise!
Better yet, why don't you realize why they get this type of help? We are not creating more criminals! You want to starve her children and have them shooting up movie theaters?????
I'm so sick and tired of gun violence. I believe people should have the right to possess firearms, but with restrictions.
My question to the pro-gun people: What is your solution to stopping all of this violence from guns? Yeah, yeah, I know guns don't kill people, people kill people... That's getting really old. What's your solution?
Their "solution" is to arm everyone so there can be shoot-outs, instead of shoot-ings, in crowded places.
Frankly, it would be a rather comical sight to see five NRA members opening fire on one another in a movie theater, confused about which one of five people with a gun in hand is the mass murderer. It would be even more comical to see what happens when the SWAT team arrives and sees not one but FIVE people swinging guns around.
Most of them seem to ignore the fact that at least one person at the Tucson shooting was armed. He almost shot the doctor who was holding the gun that he had taken from Loughner-- you know, the doctor who was helping the victims who had been shot? And then the cops arrived and almost shot the idiot who almost shot the doctor.
"But if only one of them thar folks had done had a gun!.... Haw!"
So if there were five off duty police officers in that theater, would it be just as comical? Why would you find anyone being shot funny?
@Ant1369
Ehhh, can you elaborate more? I'm not understanding your comment.
I am referring to Shandril's comment of
"Frankly, it would be a rather comical sight to see five NRA members opening fire on one another in a movie theater,...."
I don't see how that is comical at all, whether the people being shot are police officers or members of the NRA.
Ant: I don't think she meant "funny" literally. I think she was using irony to point out the silliness of the stock NRA argument with actual examples. I believe that if anyone really "thinks" about it, They'd realize there isn't a test to find out if, when a person pulls a trigger, they are thinking rationally. The reality is that mental illness is a little understood stigma, and because of this, "normal" people are allowed to go out and buy guns because it is accepted that if you appear mentally healthy you should be allowed to have a gun because you are not a looney. That's how this guy got one. I do not know if taking all guns away is the answer either. I'm just saying that she has a valid point, and that we are failing as a society to protect ourselves because we have reduced the issue to name calling instead of really looking and acting on this problem in a responsible way.
I don't know that she was framing it as irony. One of her previous posts on another comment thread about this incident said:
"Shandril
Innocent? Yeah, I'm sure that all the victims were f--cking saints.
#61.1 - Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:29 PM EDT"
What does it matter? even if they weren't saints, did anyone deserve to get shot?
In the above thread, it's hard NOT to take it as irony. Being that you only copied a few words of a past thread, it's hard for me to take the point as anything but anti-gun, based on proven ill-though logic.
I see it as schadenfreude.
As a legal and responsible gun owner, I am sure I am considered
by some as a “gun nut”. My wife and I
own three pistols and one rifle. We go
to the shooting range and practice and even though we both have concealed
weapons permits, we only carry at certain times, and that is when we travel.
We don’t own any semi-automatic weapons, as we have no need,
but if I wanted to buy one, I should have the right…. As a retired military officer, I defended the
Constitution to preserve that right…..
Many want to punish legal owners and operators of guns,
through tighter gun control laws….. Well
let me ask you this…. If you are so
worried about it, why don’t you push for law enforcement and sentences that fit
the crimes…
This John Holmes, killed people, but when the police
arrived, he just gave up, he was waiting at his car…… a coward….
But now we will hear that he is insane because his daddy did
not play catch with him, or that his daddy did not bounce him on his knee, or
his mother did not breast feed him…..
My answer to the cowards, after conviction, a strong rope
and solid tree, and let him hang until he rots.
He planned it for months, not only did he kill the people in the theater,
planned to kill the police entering his apartment and his neighbors….. well planned and executed….
Want to stop crime; stop protecting criminals…… actions
should have consequences…….
I just read where 5 people were killed in an auto accident. Perhaps we should ban cars and trucks. It appears a driver was talking on the cell phone so perhaps we should ban cell phones. How many people were killed in the last plane crash? We should ban planes perhaps. Had we done that we would have just saved people. Well maybe anyway.
Punish the many to stop the few is straight out of "Law For Dummies".
Sociopaths, psychos are going to do what they do no matter what we think or enact, if not with guns then fire bombs or some other means. Where there is a will there is a way even if it is malevolent in nature.
I think its pretty easy to spot the guy with red dyed hair sporting a gas mask and firing a punp action shotgun at the front of a theater! I don't think NRA members would be shooting each other, I think the target would be plainly visible. I've never been to a DARK theater. If the theater is really dark for you, go to the eye doctor. There is enough light in a theater to read a watch without an illuminated dial if you hold it up a little. Most certainty enough light to make out the red hair and gas mask. Please start being intellectually honest with your arguments.
He wants attention, he wants to make a statement, he tried to make a diversion at his apartment but since no one opened his door an triggered the explosives, no one died there! Instead the police arrived at the Theater promptly and saved lives! The stories need to be focused on the dead and the injured on the shooter. Keeping his name infront of the public is what he craves he wants attention otherwise he would not have surrendered.
I wonder if someone would have had a gun could have stopped him? I don't hear about the scene & what really took place. Also has anyone else noticed that alot of creepy people originate in Riverside CA? I wonder if alot of crazies travel from Riverside to Colorado for some reason? My stepson was from Riverside & robbed banks after moving to CO. He said aliens were following him & was doing meth. He was real nuts & I no longer talk to him, the feds got him. I know they do alot of meth in CA so maybe that was this guys problem. Just wondering?
Oh I forgot to add, don't most of these mass killers do themselves in at the end? I thought it is usually part of the big plan.
To answer your first question... No.
It's a dark theater...
Colorado allows people to carry concealed weapons. However, if the police arrives at the scene of a crime, they are going to take those with guns. Does it make sense trying to use your gun to defend others?
The police will kill everybody first, and ask questions later. It is useless to say that someone could have stopped this lunatic from killing others. Besides, he was carrying a semiautomatic rifle with a load of 100 rounds of ammunition.
Who else had a "concealed" weapon like this in the theatre?
Most theaters in my area have signs that prohibit firearms. People who have CCW permits are prohibited from carrying firearms where it is posted as not allowed. So even though people are allowed to carry concealed firearms, they can't legally in a movie theater.
Maybe I mis-read the news reports, but I thought it said that the 100 round magazine was found in his car.
Finally Ant1369 is getting it! We had guns in the 60's 70's and 80' and very few rampages. None with teanagers. These kids are drugged and prozacced to get good grades and behave it is really scary my kids told me that kids at high school don't buy dope any more they just buy the prescription drugs from there friends. My daughter graduated with a degree in biology out of UC Davis and the students would take these drugs to enhance concentration and focus. these drugs are dangerous. I once saw a you tube video were a room full of people are complaining to an FDA type committee about the violent reactions people were having with Prozac. The board approved the continued use of the drug turns out they were all heavily invested Pharmaceutics. Now I can't find the video it was probably deleted. My son had a hard time early in elementary school they want to send him before a board of shrinks have him tested and then drugged for the rest of his life and the fine print said only a judge or magistrate can overturn the boards decision. He never took the test and I yanked him out of that school he is doing fine in college now.
@wayne-2789383
"Finally Ant1369 is getting it!"
Um, maybe you need to re-read my posts.
For once can there be a discussion without there being personal attacks and name calling?
Fortunately, no... that's what makes the forum so damn addictive.
That's too bad. I think a good discussion on this is important. But name calling really doesn't help people try to understand each others position.
so you have the right to bear arms. where does it say t=in the constitution that you are allowed to carry semi automatic rifles and handguns. whhere doe it say tht you have the right to grenades and smokebombs. And where does it say that you have the right to purchase ans wear bullet proff vests. At least amend the laws so that YES you can own guns but they have to be single shot and reload.
Some of the gun nuts here believe that people should be able to own weapons even deadlier than guns, like grenades and rocket launchers. If the NRA had its way, we would be like certain Middle Eastern and African nations, where private militias are at constant war with one another and the State. I mean, hell, if they don't care that 40,000 people die from gunfire every year in the United States, why would they care if 400,000 died instead? Freedom, according to the NRA, is the freedom to slaughter one another at will, yet they imagine that the country would be as peaceful as Eden if only everyone were packing an assault weapon. "An armed society is a polite society," they quip, since they are unable to come up with anything other than catchy slogans to dodge the facts, which prove them wrong every time.
Your chance getting killed by a drunk driver is higher than getting shot. Those freaking car nuts
Dave right to bear arms means just that. If it shoots i will own it If you dont want a gun dont buy one simple. An armed society is a free society. Ask anyone that lives in a communist country they gave up their rights when they played dead to their masters. Wont happen here.
I'm with Shandril... This country is obsessed with guns, and it's sickening.
Looking at statistics, I'm still waiting for the pro-gun groups to provide a solution or any sort of help to mitigate the gun violence in this country.
@Sue-835775, about the higher chance of being killed by a drunk driver, do you have a source for that statistic? I'd like to see it.
All weapons are semi-automatic which means it does not fire more than one round per trigger squeeze.
Military Assult rifles are a term made up to control ones emotions and to lead them where the user wants the reader to go.
There you go mj and that's just 1 state and thats 1 year. Nobody has cried out to ban alcohol. Go blow smoke somewhere else.
STOP PERSECUTING PEOPLE and they will STOP SHOOTING YOU. All the COWARDS who mistreated this guy are so scared now that someone will find out what they did and the light will be shined on it.
TOO LATE! All the STUPID FLOWERS and CANDLES for the DEAD! TREAT PEOPLE NICELY so you and yours don't end up the victim of the PERSECUTED.
I have never seen any law the NRA sponcered that give people the right to kill others at will. Please cite this law. If it exists I would expect lots of dead people instead of the 18,000 or so we have every year.
You make stuff up, you throw in a ton of emotion but cite no real facts.
Just so you know when the constitution was written people could and did own CANNONs! You can also own a cannon now. I think a firearm that expels bowling balls that can literally tear a person in half is far more dangerous than a pump action shot gun and a rifle.
It is of little consequence that people mourn the loss of these people. Mourning in many cases hides or subverts reality. People get so caught up in the grief they forget or ignore what actually caused the grief! Yet again, all these death and destruction was caused by a gun and our obsession with having them in this country!
If we really wanted to show support for the families of the victims we know what must be done, but we also know that it won't be. There will be any number of excuses in support of the very thing (guns) that are the reason for the grief now. After all "guns don't kill people, people kill people" - right? THESE PEOPLE DIED FROM GUNSHOT WOUNDS - NOT FROM DIRTY LANGUAGE!
This was done by one of those "law-abiding" citizens who probably purchased these guns legally!
At the risk of appearing mean-spirited, grieving for the victims is useless! The death penalty is useless! Unless we are willing as Americans to stand up against guns, grieving and death penalty for the shooters means nothing! Less than nothing!
I think that the emphasis needs to be placed on
1) identifying and providing help to people who have mental stability issues. People are stigmatized if they seek help. And people are afraid of saying something about others.
2) taking a stronger stance on sentencing and incarceration. There are too many people that go in and out of jail, that the threat of being arrested just doesn't phase them. Recidivism is a huge issue in my state, with an almost 50% recidivism rate. That shows that what we are doing isn't working.
Psychiatry is often far more harmful than helpful. And the trouble with modern psychiatry is, that is has virtually unlimited authority to "identify" and "provide (force)" so-called "help" on people-- and that is a part of the reason why some people stay away from the mental health system. Pinning labels of invented "diseases" on people and thereby negating any concept of psychological rather than neuro-chemical causes of so-called mental illness is not helpful; it is the medicalization of human tragedy.
Here's an idea: Ask this shooter why he did what he did, then take his answer at face value, rather than pulling labels out of the DSM-IV and blaming it all on "the wiring." Address the environmental and psychological issues when people seek help rather than dismissing all of them in favor of an all-encompassing theory rooted in (unproven) biological factors. Maybe this guy went ballistic because no one would listen to what he was complaining about, but would only dismiss his grievances as "mental illness."
All in all, the mental health system is a joke, not because it fails to force people into "treatment (torture)," but because the whole damn thing is based on "something is wrong with your brain" rather than "something is wrong with his environment." But it makes us feel more comfortable with the status quo, no matter how f--cked up it might be, when we can summarily dismiss the complaints of the people that our society has f--cked up as mere "brain diseases." No need to change our dysfunctional culture, just chemically lobotomize anyone who reveals just how damaging it is so the rest of us don't need to fix it.
willing as Americans to stand up against guns
Yes Kenny the gun walked into the theater and started shooting all by itself hang the gun. The actual guy doing the shooting was just there to watch he wasnt really pulling the trigger was he. The gun was going off all by itself amazing. You know all the years I have been shooting not once has any of my guns loaded itself walked out to the shooting range and shot itself. If anyone can show me a gun that can do that all by itself remove itself from the gun cabinet, get the ammo out load itself put in a clip or magazine, drive itself to the shooting range or to your favorite hunting spot and then start shooting itself ill hand over all my guns. Stand up against the person who did this Kenny not anything or anyone else.
We might also do well to bear in mind that most of the survivors of this shooting will be suffering from PTSD and related "mental illnesses" that "require" professional interventions. Ironic, huh?
Put that in your pipes and smoke it!
Kenny, you are a freaking idiot!! If you read my earlier post you'd know that mass murder does not require guns. An evil mind can and will come up with many ways of killing. You can build a bomb from chemicals under your kitchen sink! You gonna ban all the stuff your wife uses? No! Guns don't cause all these murders, the evil, sick mind of evil men & women cause murder & death!!!!
Shandril
I have been trying to figure you out since I started reading these forums, trying to figure out where you stand on any of the issues. Here's what I've come up with: you don't stand anywhere on the issues. You're what people call a contrarian. You basically take the opposite position of whatever anyone else is taking no matter how unpopular. Want proof? In one forum you say "As a Christian, I have to wonder, how many of these people were saved, that is, how many were born-again? I do hope that they were praying to JESUS for forgiveness of their sins while this event was going down. Once this life is over, there are no second chances with the LORD!" In another you say "God didn't allow it [the shooting]. Someone who doesn't exist can't 'allow' anything to happen. Get real, people!"
So...wtf? Are you just so bored that you want to troll the message boards and argue with people? Or just that desperate for attention?
My heart goes out to the folks there. He was just acting upon what he had learned form the 24/7 news coverage from past attacks like this. He could have killed just as many people with his car running into them in the parking lot, and that he could have done with no planning at all, and no guns or ammo. This psyhco was created by the News Media, who slosh through the blood of victims to get ratings and push a Leftist gun control agenda. They gave him all the info he needed and now are rewarding him with a world stage to inflict as much damage on our free and open society as he can. The blood is on the News Media's hands but they will hide behind their right of freedom of the Press, and use it as a weapon against law abiding citizens right to keep and bear arms.
International statistics don't bear out the NRA propaganda that people without access to guns merely resort to cars, bombs, machetes, knives, baseball bats, and Molotov cocktails to commit murder. Sure, a few individuals have done just that in countries with strict gun control laws, but almost always with a far lower body count than a gun-wielding psychopath tallies up, and the overall murder rate in those countries is still much, much, much lower than that of nations where guns are readily available to citizens.
Do some research before you spout off the usual mindless NRA propaganda.
But it has happened. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide
"Most of the victims were killed in their own villages or in towns, often by their neighbors and fellow villagers. The militia typically murdered victims by machetes, although some army units used rifles."
Not true..
You just choose to ignore them
Worst Mass Murders in US History (any weapon):
By no coincidence all of the worst mass murders in US history have been non-gun.
Non-Gun Mass Murders (worldwide):
By no means is this a complete list. I have focused on 2008, and NOT included the majority of terrorist attacks in recent times, most of which involve car bombs (London), attaché bombs on trains (Madrid), the Sarin gas attack in Tokyo, etc. (and in fact almost all modern terrorist attacks are done without guns for the reasons of efficiency stated above).
I'm all for freedom of the press, as long as they report the facts, just the facts! They should leave their personal oppinions behind!!!
Kids see these horrible movies and want to imitate, of course the filthy media is going to blame it on the gun, but people need to start remembering the media is not our judge and jury or mind. Yes, the media is as bad as wall street. Trying to compare this murderer to OWS is wrong. OWS is protesting the filth of wall street, federal reserve and all filthy greed in our government.
James Holmes, the student in neuroscience becomes the student of neuroscience: Did Holmes lose his nerve, or find his nerve? My heart goes out to all the victims and victim's families in Aurora, CO. One can never make sense of any of these mass shootings. They are so senseless! The best we can do is increase our sensitivity in a too often desensitized world.
Janie myself being pro gun it would have been the right thing to do to stop this guy. But being dark and unsure of your target if someone else started shooting at this guy there would have been more victims. Now if he was outside daylight and you had the firepower clear shot cap his a$$. Guns forever.
If you started shooting - with your concealed weapon. - even if it was a glock (assuming one could not sneak an AK47 easily into a movie theater without anyone noticing)
YOU and all the innocent people around you would have become the #1 target.
Not real easy to do even if you are a sharp shooter. Now if the shooter had to constantly reload his rounds more often.... then that game changes.
With a little training one may never know that the shooter reloaded. It does not take all that long to swap magazines out
If a person is intent on killing someone doesn't matter if they have a gun or not they will use whatever they can get their slimmy little hands on. Getting your head smashed in with a pipe no different than being shot in the head. You still are dead. Well i guess we can confiscate all pipes,clubs, rocks, sticks, bats, crowbars or whatever then we will all be safe.
A person with a pipe, rocks, sticks, bats, crowbars, etc are not going to enter a movie theater and kill 12 people... Sorry, guns are a bit different. Common sense. And look at the fricken statistics.... Next....
Wish I could modify my previous post.... but with a pipe, rocks, sticks, bats, crowbars, etc, you are not going to kill 12 people and injure 50+ people. Not going to happen.
MJ1986...
Would you care to tell that to the victims and their families of Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City?
So if 1 person is killed by a rock and 1 person is killed by a gun what is the difference dead is dead. Like I said ban all rocks we will all be safe. Get used to it sweet pea we will have guns and all the ammo i can have until the end of times. If you don't want a gun don't buy one.
Bombs or poison gas can be made from household items. Guess what Kenny, if Holmes didn't have guns he would have killed those people another way. So maybe you ought to get your facts straight.
No one has asked or reported on the Movie Theater staff. After the shooting started where were they?
One would think that someone from Management in the Theater would turn on the lights. Was the film running this whole time?
Everyone said it was so dark and that they were tripping over bodies.... There must be someone who could have run out of that Theater and told the management what was happening. And they should have been able to to turn the lights on.
Just sayin......No media person has asked these questions yet.
We really need an objective study of why these things happen so often in the USA, have stopped happening since gun laws went in place in Australia, yet are beginning to happen in other wealthy nations that have strict gun laws.
An American researcher married a Native woman from deep in the jungles of Central America and she was very upset that Americans lock themselves in rooms and don't spend much time interacting with neighbors. She felt so isolated from behaving like a human: interacting with a group, that soon she returned to her jungle tribe.
I wonder how much our air-conditioned, watch-the-TV, use the computer, play with an x-box isolation leads us to develop such self-centered notions of our world that we've hardened ourselves to what happens to others. I was able to rise from the poorest family in our neighborhood in the armpit of our county to a Middle Class slightly-above average lifestyle because the State paid 2/3 of the cost of tuition to UMBC for all in-state residents and private IIT gave me a full scholarship to grad school plus a paid teaching assistantship. To this day, I annually donate a small amount to each school, yet I see that few of my then-egalitarian-minded friends, who also benefited, donating.
And Look at the attitudes toward the poor or poor children on these comment boards: "if they can't take care of themselves, let THEM find another way," "I'm not going to pay for a poor kid's glasses so he can see the board in school, that's his parents' responsibility." The motto "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) no longer applies to the USA. We should stamp on our coins, "Me! Me! Me First!"
Mick, you should check your facts first. Crimes are climbing there and in England both. Because the criminals didn't turn in their guns, only the law abiding citizen did. In Australia a woman was arrested for using her gun for protection. Why? She is not allowed to protect herself now. Criminals don't obey laws....they won't any will never. So why do the law abiding people have no rights to self protection then? If one person.....just one person in this theater had a pistol and shoot this man, how many would still be alive now. If I had been there he wouldn't have. His so called bullet proof vest would not have stopped me from trying. His gas mask won't stop a bullet!
Cirminals didn't turn in their guns ?? This guy wasn't a criminal ,He LEGALLY bought an Assault style rife and several pistols over a very short time.
So If you were there an d had your Pistol you would have hit him with teargas in the air and bullets flying , I highly doubt it ..
Why was he able to buy a 100 round magizine ?? why was he able th purchase so many guns in such a short time ..
About every month or so we have someone get a gun and shoot a bunch of people , It is a RARE thing in Australia and England ...
As for the errant Gov't you want to fight , they have the Attack Helecopters and the well regulated Militia
Your Bravado is commendable but that is just stupid talk
He acted illegally therefore he is a criminal. yet, blame is not being placed on him. Its the fault of everyone else or every inanimate object that can be thought of.
And just and FYI both England and Australia have higher violent crimes than the US. They also have higher vandalism and higher robberies than the US but the people have less freedoms.
You are so right my friend.
Cinemark Holdings, Inc. own this theater. Cinemark doesn’t allow anyone other than law enforcement officers to carry legal firearms in their theaters. This mean they are responsible for the protection of their cutstomers since they do not allow them to carry ANYTHING to protect themselves. This is the problem with too many of these companies. They deny you to right to protection of yourself or your loved ones and then don't proteact you while your there. If they didn't let this guy into the theater with his guns no one would have been killed.
It is their responsibility to give that protection under the law if they take it away from their patrons in the theaters. They are the ones that should make 100% sure no one can come into that theater with any guns if they don't want any there. They should have guards to prevent anyone from bring any weapons into these theaters. Hire guards, hire protection if they deny the patron that right. I would have an attorney all over this company for not giving them protection after they have taken to right to self protection away from everyone in these theaters. They are denying their patrons that right under the law and not protecting them.
Don't worry they will be sued for sure because of this but retain their purely political stance as they could never ensure that no one gets in their establishment while armed.
It's people who pray under that cross in the photo that want to put guns in everyone's pockets!
rweber--WOW where do you get your info.
If you are an atheist you will believe that! While my religion is not anti gun ownership but, it tells us with any weapon ownership comes responsibility.
He could based upon the info on coming out about his apartment , just as easily used explosives to kill even more people at that theater. That said there needs to be some control on getting buying large quantities of ammo and the ability to by assault rifles by the public. These are intended to do massive damage!
Rweber Shut up, your intelligence is shining through
I know I am a sociopath, I lack empathy and for the past 15+
years have thought…and even at one point came very close to doing something
similar. The world I saw revolved around me…I was the center and when I closed
my eyes… everyone else just stopped…
I often wonder how many people there are out there like me who identify with
this shooter or other shooters in the past and yet are currently functioning
members of society. It baffles me why nobody can see the obvious and instead
focus on what the media and politicians want to shove down your throat. Unlike
Columbine and unlike Virginia Tech this mass murder comes closest to home for
me because while he had his guns I firmly believe that if he did not this day
would still have occurred. A while back there was a story where a father took
his kids into his home and chopped them up with a hatchet and the point here is
that where there is a will there is a way. This mass murder had the knowledge
of explosives and chemicals and for whatever reason chose to get up close and
personal rather than just blow the theater up for a racking death count. If he
wanted to though…he probably could have.
So let’s pause for a moment here and get to the point. Gun control… like I said
if there is a will there will be a way. Whether we are talking about hatchets
or explosives or guns. Someone earlier said something along the lines of, “Why
do we not have a story of one of our armed citizens ending this shooter’s
life?” Well, being a legal concealed gun owner I can tell you that when I go to
eat there is a sign outside that says, “No guns allowed.” A girl was raped on
her way to her car from campus… her gun was in her car because gun’s are not
allowed…imagine 15 steps away from possible salvation yet being a law abiding
citizen wrecked her life. You go to watch Batman and leave your gun in the car…
too strict of gun laws stop you from protecting yourself from these criminals
yet they go where they please and do what they want.
Now let’s get to the solution or at least the possibility of one. The problem
in America is the fifty dollar band-aid. Besides growing up as a sociopath I
also have PTSD and MDD which I did not know any of this until I was in my late
20’s because I could never afford to go to the doctor. Let’s be honest I had a
hunch but when I started taking my meds and I realized the world did not
revolve around me…it blew my mind…It was like I was a horse and someone took of
my blinders for the first time. However America’s health system is expensive.
$200 to therapist, $250 for my psychiatrist, and about $400 for meds a month.
Honestly as screwed up as I am/was? I think I should see a doctor weekly (at
least the therapist) but in order to stay sane… well really how many can afford
such a thing. So minutes after the shooting we have Bloomberg on his soapbox
wanting a call for better gun control… Terrorist of 911 used box cutters to end
a little fewer than 3000 lives, Timothy McVeigh used explosives to kill 168
people, the Boston Stranger killed 13 with his nylons…as I said in the
beginning… if you are messed up in the head enough to want to do these things
you will find a way and banning guns will not stop them. Allowing these people
to afford to get the medical help they need is the solution…you talk about a
“trigger” something to push someone over the edge…image you’re a sociopath and
on meds because your job offers great medical insurance but do this economy you
lose your job…trigger….and then you lose access to your doctors and medicine….
That is not even a trigger, that is your body going into shock because you’re
not supposed to go off your meds cold turkey… want to know a secret… I have had
two doctors that I stopped seeing where they have not followed up with me to
make sure I was still medicated…and they know all my dark and dirty secrets.
Fixing the health care system in America so people can get the help they need
should be priority number one if you really want crap like these to be reduced.
I do realize that not all of America’s deranged would have gotten the help they
needed but you have to ask yourself, what if they could… if they wanted to?
You can debate the gun controls all you want but in the end
it wasn’t gun control laws that made me get rid of my home made napalm, grenades,
illegal guns, and other explosives… it was the proper medication that now
balances me out and helped me want to me a functioning better member of society.
I feel for you, my friend and I'm more than just a little worried for you too.
Personally, I think you should get rid of all your guns. Not just for society or your neighbors and community. But for your loved ones and, especially for yourself.
I am a Life Meember of the NRA and a strong supporter of everyones Right to Keep and Bear Arms. But I, and all of my fellow members, recongnize that , along with that Right comes an immense responsibility. If you're having thoughts such you described and only medication is what keeps you from acting on them then you owe it to all of those I mentioned above to take as many of the destructive elements out of your life as you can. That definately includes your guns.
@Gage Astronomer:
Thank you for sharing your personal story. I am very sorry that you are having to deal with those issues, and very glad that you are getting at least some of the help that you need.
I think that your comment of
if you are messed up in the head enough to want to do these things you will find a way and banning guns will not stop them
is pretty much the concept that we need to focus on.
It´s time to make the NRA a traitorous organization. along with the National Heroin Ass.and the poisonous spiders organizations.The banning od ALL private weapons except for pistols for certain jobs is now the most important thing in the U.S Only hunting rifles of the normal kind can be sold of the larger weapons. and only to certified hunters...Even if only 10% of the U.S is violent,trigger happy crazies that would be more than 30 million people.We all live in Aurora.It´s everyones neighbor.Otherwise we will keep having our nose rubbed in by the deaths and wounded killed by all the guns in the country.All the prayers,medication.balloons and hugging will not solve the problem. Only VERY strict and national gun control can begin to make a dent!!
@gunsrgood
I apologize if I was not clear in my wall of text but sometime when you give
out so much information it is hard to cover every thought thoroughly. I am not
going to dive any further into my past mental health diagnosis any more than I
already have but I can assure you that I am not now nor for the past at least 7
years have I been a threat to the public. The point of my post was not to scare
but to educate on how I overcame my obstacles and a broken health system aided
years in suffering.
Honestly I have thought long and hard about your statement for years before
you made it, should those who have anti-social disorder, post-traumatic stress
disorder, manic depressive disorder, should these people be allowed to own a
gun? To my knowledge if you have been institutionalized that does stop you from
owning a gun legally (I could be wrong) but just seeing a doctor is not enough.
Originally a flag was raised and I asked myself, “Should we make it stricter
and should we discriminate those with issues from owning a gun legally?” Not
only is my my main concern here is that if you discriminate then those who need
help may avoid getting the help they need in fear of losing constitutional rights
but if I also believed any of this then that would negate my theory that those
with ailments who have a desire will find a way. I strongly believe that our gun laws
should allow us to protect ourselves and families from people like this
wherever we go however to reduce the amount of incidents like this one fixing
the health care system so people can get the help they need will be the only
way to reduce these attacks.
It wont make any dent at all. You can build a submachine gun in your basement with a mill a drill press and a lathe.. All you'll do is make the crazies build their own full auto machine guns (what this guy didn't have) and be more successful in killing more people.