Thank God for the blessing and pray for the rest of the victims and their families.

Okay, before people go off on some tangent, I want to say something about miracles. To believers, this is a great story. But if our faith is based on signs and miracles, we have a very weak foundation. The misery her family would have had to endure to have her mother so gravely ill and to loose Petra would have been horrendous. I'm very grateful that this cup passed her and her family by. But every day people experience such tragedies and even greater ones. The point for us as believers is to praise God, but also to get involved more deeply in his work.

To non-believe, I will try to put this into context for you. We all die. I'm going to die. You will die. Eventually, Petra will die; just not now. It's not how long you live that matters. It's what you do with your life that matters. We will look at the preservation of Petra's mortal life as a sign that God has plans for her. That plan could be direct or indirect. I'm sure some people will look at this miracle and find comfort. But faith should not rely on miracles.

There is a greater lesson for all of us, believer and non-believer. We all failed our fellow man and woman. How does a man buy 6,000 rounds of ammo and no one noticed? How does a man become so lost and no one intervene? We should be asking "Were their signs that were missed?" and if there were, what were those signs and can we look for them again to avoid another such tragedy. We see signs and ignore them and then bad things happen and one person blames God and another points it out as proof that there is no God. But when will we all stop and look at ourselves and say, "We failed. We let those people die!"

My mother always told me that I'm not here to just praise God, but to be his heands on earth. I'm here to help my fellow man. Only by getting involved with each other and loving each other can we start to end this kind of tragedy. Whatever you believe, look around you and help. There is so much to be done and so few to do the work.

When a child falls from a 3 story window and survives unharmed, it's god's protective hand at work. But, when a toddler flips over into a 5 gallon bucket and drowns, that's just bad luck (?). Where was god? Presumably setting there 'watching' as this poor kid panicked, breathed liquid into his little lungs, then died a horrible death. Should you or I have stood by and watched the toddler die and done NOTHING, shame on us....we should be jailed. But w/god, it's OK, right? Happens all the time....

Back on topic....I'm glad to see that this woman survived in the midst of this horrific act, however it baffles me that adults still actually believe such superstitious nonsense.

@Al-2891780 Everything happens for a reason.

Well said, Differnet!

JohnTrent....then why get up in the morning?

@Differnet

How does a man buy 6,000 rounds of ammo and no one noticed?

Buy in small quantities over a period of time...

How does a man become so lost and no one intervene?

Because it is easy to disenfranchise from society when people only care about themselves...

We should be asking "Were their signs that were missed?" and if there were, what were those signs and can we look for them again to avoid another such tragedy.

People are not under the observation of psychologists all of the time...

We see signs and ignore them and then bad things happen and one person blames God and another points it out as proof that there is no God. But when will we all stop and look at ourselves and say, "We failed. We let those people die!"

We are ALL BROKEN, look at the world we have created for ourselves, you call this sanity?

Not everything happens for a reason. Some things just CAN NOT be explained.
I love how people freak out when you can't put everything in a little box with a nice little label. Because, not everything can be labeled, period.

"Thank God for the blessing and pray for the rest of the victims and their families."

This really bothers me. Thank god? Where was he for all the others? If god gets the credit here, then he gets the 'where were you god' for all the others.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

- Epicurus

Dave--also well said. And if there is one thing I know for sure, it's this: That I do not have all the puzzle pieces to the universe.

there is a story circulating, that several days before Holmes started his shooting spree, he sent a package to the University where he was a NIH grantee GOVERNMENT MONEY FOR RESEARCH), DESCRIBING A KILLING SPREE , THE university SAID NO ON READ IT; DID ANYONE ELSE HEAR ABOUT THIS?

*sigh* Mention God or miracles and people go off. If you don't believe, fine why do you care? If you believe, why do you need signs and miracles? As for why God allows bad things to happen, he doesn't, we do. God gave us free will. Perhaps you all missed this very important point. He could have given us a simple list of do's and don'ts. But that isn't why we are here. We are here to learn to be the best humans we can be. We are here to do his work and love one another. You are putting entirely too much importance on your mortal life span. Do you honestly think you will live forever? You will die. But I ask you, what are you doing with yoru life?! If you don't believe in God, find another reason for becoming a better person. But instead, you'll fill up a message board with bitterness and contempt. *sigh*

Chris,

If you want God to stop all the horrendous evil in the world, better be prepared to give up "free will", because you can't have both.

Stevefoo-

If He appeared at the half-time show, no one would have "faith" anymore, as they would KNOW He exists.

I know a lot of people that have displayed signs of being crazy enough to do something like this. Seriously, I would not be the least bit surprised if either of them did something like this. But what do I do? Who do I tell? What legal right enables me to call someone crazy and have it investigated? Is that the world some of you want us to live in? Where they can lock you up for your attitude. Not me. This incident is just a sacrifice we have to make as a society so that the extreme power whores don't take complete control of our lives.

Jessicalc....I don't necessarily want to lose "free will"....I just want all the information. Sorry....a manuscript that has been edited and translated 900 different ways to Sunday is not all the information. Before I start dedicating my life and genuflecting in church every Sunday, I need a lot more proof of existence than is currently available.

How does a man buy 6,000 rounds of ammo and no one noticed?

Could someone explain to me how why this makes any difference? Buying 6,000 rounds is not a big deal. Maybe somebody just finds a good deal on ammunition and they stock up. I can go through 100 rounds in 30 minutes at the range. That's with manually reloading one 10 round clip each time. From the sounds of things, Holmes didn't even get off that many rounds. If you investigate everyone who buys bulk ammunition, what you're going to find is a bunch of regular people who shoot at beer cans on the weekend. What makes anyone here think that a dispatched investigator would have identified Holmes as a guy planning a mass murder? The investigator probably would have questioned him, and Holmes would have said: "I found a good price for ammo and bought a bunch." Buying that much ammo doesn't mean you're going on a killing spree. You couldn't even shoot that much ammunition during a killing spree. Buying bulk ammo means NOTHING!

Stevefoo-

Oh, I understand. I have a struggle with faith myself, for lack of proof (I don't trust the bible that much), and it's hard for me to accept that bad things happen to good people and all of this.

The "free will" part is because if you think about it logically, the shooter had complete free will, as we all do. To do something that would have changed what happened would take away his free will. He could have made his car break down or something on the way there, yes, and that would change that night. But the man had serious issues. He would have done this or something similar at another time.

If you had proof, like God revealed himself to you, or everyone, then there would no longer be "faith". See, I found an amazing church. The only one I've ever been to that I like. The pastor is really great. They focus more on how you should live your life, to love, not to judge, and don't focus on the hateful things that some do. Although I struggle with faith, I have decided to keep going to church every Sunday and trying to dedicate myself to it, because I've decided that nothing but good can come of it. If I die, and there is no God, I won't regret the time I spent in church anyway.

Jessicalc

Chris,

If you want God to stop all the horrendous evil in the world, better be prepared to give up "free will", because you can't have both.

Stevefoo-

If He appeared at the half-time show, no one would have "faith" anymore, as they would KNOW He exists.

Amen to that. Atheist and Agnostics never truly understand the concept of faith and that will always be the case. So be it.

Jessicalc....I'm not sure I understand exactly what is wrong with us KNOWING that he exists. Your faith is baseless, really. I ask people why they believe all the time, and not because I am being combative, but because I really want to know. Faith is a BS word....it covers all kinds of discrepancies. For instance, I have faith that shortly after the light turns yellow, it is going to turn red. I have faith that the sun will appear at the eastern horizon every morning. This is because I am basing my faith on something tangible. It seems that your faith is based solely on pre-suposition. If someone uses the bible, they are using a very outdated manuscript to form their entire life around, without knowing truly where the words originated from. If you don't use the bible, something else must be driving your faith. But, if that is the case, how can non-sensical tragedies like these not shake that faith? Now...do I believe Jesus existed? Absolutely! We have a calendar based on his existence. Do I believe he was the son of god? Absolutely not....there is only heresay to back up that claim. So again....what would be wrong with KNOWING??

The lady is lucky God intervened, he sure didn't as my girlfriend was being molested by her biological father despite her in the dark mother telling her almost every day "God is watching you". It didn't take her long to come to the conclusion that God is either a voyeuristic pervert or doesn't exit.... she choose the latter.

Amen to that. Atheist and Agnostics never truly understand the concept of faith and that will always be the case. So be it.

No, atheists and agnostics simply realize that:

"Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits. It is intellectual bankruptcy." - Dan Barker

"The lady is lucky God intervened, he sure didn't as my girlfriend was being molested by her biological father..."
"It didn't take her long to come to the conclusion that God is either a voyeuristic pervert or doesn't exit.... she choose the latter."

So if I had a kid who grew up to be a rapist, you would call me the rapist.

Some of the comments on here are really disheartening. If you don't believe in a higher power, that's fine, don't mock what others believe in. You can say, "Oh, why couldn't he have saved everyone?" But for those of us who believe, we have to accept that we'll never understand why God allows things like this to happen. We can't see every angle and every outcome. We just have to trust and pray.

Notfiveo-

Yes, God wasn't there when my friend's step dad raped me, too. This is the main reason I struggle with my faith, as I'm still pretty angry about it. I came to a different conclusion though. My friends step father had complete free will, HE did it to me, not God.

I do know that if that never happened, my life would be COMPLETELY different. I wouldn't have signed myself out of HS early (and gotten a diploma immediately from a home school), I would have gotten into any TX university, as I was top 3%. I would be about to start my senior year of college. I wouldn't know any of my current friends. I would still be an atheist. So, maybe, in some sick way, I went through that for a reason. I don't know. Trust me though, I'm still angry. In fact, I just had a meeting with my pastor to try to explain to me why bad things happen to good people.

Stevefoo-

I don't know. I really don't. All I know, is that according to the bible, faith is key. Without it, no matter what you do, no matter how much of a good person you were, you would not be permitted to heaven. Personally, I think that's a crappy deal.

differnet:

But if our faith is based on signs and miracles, we have a very weak foundation.

We will look at the preservation of Petra's mortal life as a sign that God has plans for her.

So are you saying basing your faith on "signs" is weak or an acceptable part of your belief? You can't have it both ways.

Believers are so wishy washy in their attempt to get the situation to match the faith.

You know, Scientist think the universe started from an infinitely small point, essentially it started from nothing and was born into nothing. Even if we found that the universe was born in to something then how and where was that place born and so on and so on and so on. That is called infinite regression. An attempt to find the true beginning of it all.

If you can believe scientifically that the universe was born from nothing into nothing and produced something then it is not hard to have faith in gods being there. They are both wondrous and both incomprehensible.

You can think about why bad things happen to good people the same way as you do infinite regression. You can ask all the questions you like about why, who, how and why god did not stop it and you can also ask where dose someone get the idea to mass murder and you will never really have an idea of why in the end this all happens. You have to have faith that this life is only the beginning and that this life is not just the beginning and it dose not just end when you are no longer alive.

Because we don't know what happens after life, there is no way to know that those who died do not still exist, and again, if you can believe this universe was born from nothing into nothing all by its self, then you can believe that a person lives on after death and that there could vary well be a mechanism for that.

I´m very glad she will survive.One less death.But the real miracle will be when VERY strict gun control is passed in the whole country.Then maybe these people would never have been shot.Wake up America! The enemy is us !

It might be even more effective if laws where passed that helped people obtain defensive weapons and armour and gave them training in how to use it. If the gun nuts want their toys the rest of us should be pushing to have a right to defensive equipment that make pulling a gun all but useless.

Believe whatever fits for you personally. Atheists and agnostic know what faith is, but they just choose not to have faith in the idea of God or gods. They do, however, believe in many other things, and that is often not understood by those who do have faith in God.

No, Marie, you don't have to trust, pray, or accept anything since we all have choices. BUT, if that is what you believe and it works for you then that is awesome in my view. Just as the person who looks at a sunset, admires it, but doesn't see that God made it can be awesome, too. There isn't something missing if a person doesn't happen to be Christian, but it is just a different path, and there are also other paths in other directions that are awesome for the people who choose them.

And no, there is nothing wrong with not basing a life on having the faith that there is a God without any proof, but there is nothing wrong with deciding that there may be or is one and taking that on faith, either. We all process information differently and have different backgrounds, so why would anyone insist that there is only one right way to think or believe?

This story is cool whether you think it is a miracle from God, her guides were watching over her, she has great luck, it was simply the way it was, or she has more to do in this life before she leaves it. Why argue over which view is "right"? How about we just appreciate that this young lady is alive and may still get to teach the music she loves to share with others? Why does it have to be a "them vs. us" situation? Whatever the case, she is alive and that is awesome.

QE-

"If the gun nuts want their toys"...I'm sure you would call me a gun nut. I will never give up my gun...if you read my last post, you'll know why. I want to be able to protect myself. I would never pull out my gun unless I were 100% sure I needed to to protect myself. I'm a young woman. I can not protect myself against a man with a knife. I need my gun. I have been properly trained (my grandfather was not only a sharpshooter in the Navy, but became a small arms instructor later in life as well).

stevefoo, if a believer's faith is baseless, then an atheists life is meaningless. Perhaps you missed these important facts: but the sun will eventually go nova, the Adromeda galaxy will eventually colide with our's and wipe out billion of stars, and if that doesn't get us, eventually the universe itself will either implode or pull itself apart into molecular soup (depends which theory of the universe you ascribe too). So, the simple fact is that the species will not survive. Therefore, what is the purpose of your life? In short, whether atheists want to admit it or not, atheism leads to nihilism. I watch atheist twist themselves into philosophical pretzels to deny this. So, why not get this all over with and just kill each other off as we fight and squabble for the riches of the earth. What would be wrong about someone coming to your house, stealing everything you own, killing and raping - because eventually it means nothing.

If there is no God/higher power/higher plane of existance, then we are nothing more than cows who are going through life eating and pooping. We are nothing more than ants running around collecting, gathering and hording. Moreover, everything we percieve, think and feel is nothing more than an accident. Your love for your child, nothing more than an accident of your brain chemisty - it has no real meaning. The pride you feel, it's also just an accident of brain chemistry. Nothing has meaning. Sorry, but I believe because to not believe means that ultimately there is no right or wrong and there is no meaning to life.

I'm sure you'll go into denial about your life having meaning. I've read a lot of atheist philosphers who try desperately to come up with a rational for existence without a higher power, but it's basically mental masturbation. You mean nothing without a higher purpose. So, us believers, believe because we refuse to have no meaning.

It would be interesting to see if this miracle could be duplicated. I suggest we try it using James Holmes as a test subject.

PS. I don't care if you choose not to believe. We'll all find out one way or another, won't we. However, coming to a website to bash other people who say something simple like "Thank God" probably says more about your mental state and your level of anxiety about your life than it does about the existence of God.

If God wants to take credit for this, then he or she will have to take credits for the killing as well.

Where were god when that maniac starts to shoot people?

It is really hard to believe that God has anything to do with this or anything since he pretty much ignore us for thousands of years from the look of how history turned out.

Best wishes to Petra. I hope she enjoys a long and happy life.

differnet.....I am so sorry for you that you feel your life is so hopeless and limited without the knowledge of some higher power. I do not go through life just eating and pooping....I enjoy the heck out of my life. And I have a much greater respect for all forms of life because I believe this is the only shot we have. This is why incidents like what happened in Aurora makes me angrier than you believers. You think those people went on to some great reward somewhere while I believe they are just dead and did not get a chance to fulfill their lifes ambitions.

Again....you may believe what you want about your own pitiful existence, but don't you dare try to tell me mine is any less noble or worthwhile without the belief in your 'god'!

science is pretty darn close to determining what makes a person a serial killer, and genetics, brain scans and abuse as a child are pretty much the main determining factors. of course, it still doesnt make certain that someone WILL kill people, but it sets the stage perfectly.

so if everything happens for a reason...someone explain to me what the reason is?

ahhhh im betting that is for GOD to know and us to find out! so clever of him.

well, here's hoping you are not on the wrong end of reasoning some day.

@ Jessicalc

Guns are not the only effective way to defend yourself against criminals with guns. There are non lethal weapons both active and passive that when properly used will keep a shooter from aiming his weapon let alone using it to inflict harm. There are also defensive weapons to take care of other personal safety concerns that dont involve the purp having a gun.

Your using your gun to defend yourself could cost my child her life if you happen to discharge it and miss your intended target. Even if you where defending yourself, I would have you jailed and I would go after you for wrongful death just in case you beat the manslaughter charge.

On thing that people caring guns for self defense do not talk about is what happens when that gun inadvertently causes the death of an innocent person. I would die before I would live with the knowledge that a bullet from my gun killed anyone, even if it was ultimately in my defense.

You live in the 21st century, guns are not the only protection, and they are not always as effective as defensive only weapons at securing your safety.

Differnet said:

We will look at the preservation of Petra's mortal life as a sign that God has plans for her. That plan could be direct or indirect. I'm sure some people will look at this miracle and find comfort. But faith should not rely on miracles.

It's too bad God did not have any plans for those that died. I suppose they were taking up space and getting in the way of those that had a plan.

Hey stevefoo, nice try. You know, I understand people like you. I really do. Anger without purpose is useless. If you use your anger to change things than good. It's funny, how you are omnipotent and know how I feel. And boy, talk about anger, your last line says a lot. Defensive there?!?

Many Christians believe Atheism is the root of evil, if my wanting to strangle every person who unjustly harms another human, or for that matter a pet, than I am your huckleberry.

Tony, actually he does and did have a plan for those who died. Maybe his plan was for us to stop their deaths, but we failed. He did give us free will. We seem to be hell bent on killing each other or allowing each other to die lonely and unloved.

Notfiveo.... If there is not higher existence or being, then this is all an accident and there is not "unjust" killings, there are just killings. Everyone is going to die. And therefore, killing them now isn't any different than them dying a decade or two from now. Hey, maybe we can start deciding whose lives has more value and we can force them to pay to be allowed to stay alive. *sigh*

differnet:

...if a believer's faith is baseless, then an atheists life is meaningless.

Have you ever thought it possible that the true purpose and meaning of life is just simply the perpetuation of life?

And btw, do you have a response to my post of #1.28 regarding "signs"?

You know what's sad and disturbing about stevefoo's anger about me saying his belief structure is meaningless. He was happy as a clam to come on to a board and start telling other people that their beliefs are wrong, but once challlenged about his own, he goes into a rage.

See the point?!?

Debi, did you read my entire post? You can't live forever. The sum will nova, Adromenda will run into our galaxy and destroy large swaths of it or eventually the universe will either implode or pull itself apart...... Eventually all life will cease to exist. There is as much denail at work in among non-believers as there is among many believers.

QE-

Well, for one, I have hollow points, so no ricochets. I do need more training, and therefore don't have my CHL (yet). I am pretty spot on targets, though. I had my gun in my apartment (hollow points will stop bullets from going through walls).

" I would die before I would live with the knowledge that a bullet from my gun killed anyone, even if it was ultimately in my defense." You say that now...have you ever been a victim? Do you know what it's like to not be able to protect yourself, while someone victimizes you? To struggle and fight with everything you have? Do you know what it's like to not have enough proof to keep the sicko off the streets, so you lay awake at night wondering if they are victimizing someone else?

I don't go hunting, and never have, because I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing my gun killed anything innocent.

Just to be clear, when Andromeda merges with the Milky way it is expected to be a relatively orderly event. large areas in ether galaxy will not be destroyed because of the huge distances between stars in both galaxies.

Differnet, faith or not, we all go through life pooping and eating....it's called survival....Like stevefoo, i enjoy the hell out of my life and make the most of it because when I die, that's it. No heaven, no hell, just a permanent sleep as my body decays. My "spirit" lives on through my family and friends and the people whose lives I touched somehow......We all know we are going to die someday.....some of us want to live by a code because we feel there is a "special" place we go to after we die but not me.....I'm alive now and will make the most of it because I have complete FAITH in what I just wrote above....

differnet....Two things. First....I never said anybody that followed their beliefs was wrong. I believe I said that faith is baseless. Secondly, I am not in a rage. I am just saying, rather emphatically, that you have no right to tell me my life is meaningless based on your unsubstantiated belief system. How about I live happy in my beliefs and you live happily in yours?

QE137, relatively being the operative word there. If you've read carefully, you would know that relatively still includes the destruction of billion of stars and planets. There are 300 billion stars in the Milky Way and approsimately the same number in Andromeda, the destruction of a few billion is relatively orderly.

There are some amazing strawman arguments against atheists, atheists being people that do not believe in magic, as opposed to Sikhs, Buddhists, Jaines, Taoists, Shintoists, and any other "ists" that do not prescribe to the abrahamic religions.

QE137 - You make an argument that scientists "believe" that something came from nothing but if the bible says it, then of course it can happen. Does this make sense to you?

Never mind you just flying past the thought that it may just have always been there, again, ok for god, not ok for the universe.

Or that it spontaneously erupted from nothing, like in cold fusion.

Well, first thing, there is no "belief", there is postulating, speculating, theorizing, or hypothesizing. You then go on to further your fallacious logic in that well if they can do that, then we can believe in gods.

There is one HUGE difference you left out. What a scientist has to say about a thing means nothing, that is, until it is falsifiable, tested, retested, published, peer reviewed, and then accepted by a consensus. You simply cannot do that with gods.

Quantum mechanics states that something cannot ever truly be "nothing", there is always some degree of uncertainty and that in order to have it, uncertainty would need to be 0. I highly doubt the sheep herders that wrote the bit about genesis knew much about quantum mechanics.

They didn't understand Heisenberg's uncertainty principal, or Hawking radiation, or ... and on and on.

You further take into account the experiments at Gothenburg and you have testible evidence that something can, and does, come from nothing.

That said, if you consider the amount of religions in the world, the amount of gods and magic, human psychological makeup, history of the region, factor that in with current religious beliefs, the odds of there being a god as described by by abrahmic religion (Im talking to you jew, muslims, and christians) is almost zero.

I think a better, and far more suited philosophical discussion would be for you to speculate where god came from, who made him/her, and why I can type this to you, in real time, across the planet, bouncing off satellites in outer space, but god, in his omnipotance, prefers 3 thousand year old papyrus and can't quite seem to pull it off.

stevefoo,

Quote: "Again....you may believe what you want about your own pitiful existence, but don't you dare try to tell me mine is any less noble or worthwhile without the belief in your 'god'!"

Sounds pretty angry.

Jessicalc

I am not making a case for your gun to be taken away. In fact if that is the tool you want to defend yourself that is fine. My mission is to make pulling a gun on ether side of the equation pointless, and that time will come when rather then trying to create gun laws that are more restrictive, people turn to creating laws that enhance personal protection with the smallest possible harm to other innocent people.

I feel good with my Armour,shreekers and blinders they have saved me 2 times already. If you feel good about having a gun, that is cool by me, just be warned that no matter how good your aim there is always a chance to miss and there will not always be a wall or other structure in the path of your bullet before it hits an innocent.

QE-

I understand. Personally, I wouldn't use it unless it were a last resort, and I were confident there isn't a possibility of harming an innocent. I have just been through too much, on too many occasions to leave myself defenseless. That's my problem with stricter gun control. Yes, I'm sure it would save many lives, but how many would it leave defenseless? My father is a machinist. He can make a gun from a hunk of metal. How do you regulate that? I just can't see a way to enforce extremely strict gun laws without taking them away from the people who only want them for good as well.

Because I used the word 'dare'? You're kidding, right? I would hardly call that a rage. Now, if I were to call you a mindless, ignorant, lemming follower that depends on a 2000 year old manuscript in order to get through life, that would be different. But, as you can clearly see from my previous posts, I did nothing of the sort.

Stevefoo, you do realize that you are just making yourself seem angry? Admittedly inflection is hard to here on the internet, but your word chose is decidedly in the range of someone who is in a snit. Seriously, now you throw out insults and try to claim you aren't angry. Really?!? Do people buy that in real life?

As for the age of the bible, you obviously know little about its history. But then, a lot of believers know little about its history too. Plus, you seem to think that a believer only draws faith and enlightenment from the bible. *sigh* That's okay, because I argue a great deal with other believers about biblical inerrency, so I can see where others might be confused.

differnet....and do you realize that your word choice makes you seem as if you are one of those holier than thou types that think you know everything there is to know about god and religion and that anybody that can't see your point of view obviously doesn't get it (because the signs are just so clear). I know quite a bit about the bible, by the way. I know there are many different sections of the bible, each more seemingly crazy than the last, and that if true believers read the bible word for word they would see how nonsensical many of the passages were. As I said before, and will stick by it. Faith must be based on something....if not, then call it what it is....blind faith.

By the way.....you may not have noticed it, because you probably are not reading every word that I am writing, but I never insulted you or called you names.....read my previous post again....I said 'If I had called you xxxxx'. The English language is filled with escape clauses.....

What 'free-will' did the 6 year old who got murdered have?

differnet,

Your life is meaningless because you believe in a different god than I do.

How do you feel about that?

different - we evovled to be the way we are, that is a fact - to say someone who lives his one life to the fullist and helps others while they are - thats meaningless - what ypou forget is the people who live their lives worshiping or believing only in hopes of an afterlife -- thats seems very selfish - the person that should really be rewarded is the one who is good without seeking to be rewarded - that is being good for goodness sake and nothinhg else - some of the meanist, selfish ,racist people i know claim to be religous

Oh come on Steve, that's the typical way people slip in insults while pretending they aren't! Everybody over 10 is familiar with that technique. Now you are making yourself look disengenuous and hypocritical. What you are trying to do is insite me to call you names too, so that you can feel better. Do you actually get away with this stuff in your real life? Really?!? I'm not insulting you, but..... Does that really work?!

As for "holier than thou," I'm not holier than anyone. I am far more educated than you about world faith and the history of religion and philosophy. And that's getting under your skin. Most atheist are use to the type of Christians who are "bible thumpers." The rational Christian do not get a lot of air time, since we are neither sexy nor crazy.

I pray - to the Goddess, and ALL beings of goodness and Light, that Petra completely recovers and heals - and that Her mother also is healed. I look forward to listening to Petra's music - and wish with all my heart that she fullfill her dreams, and be allowed to share the joy and power of music with young souls in the future.

The Miracle of her survival gives me hope.

Aloha

hambone, I try not to worry overmuch about what others are believing. I do care about what they are doing. If you God teaches you to be a better person, go with that. You obviously missed Christ's lesson to the apostle on the magician who was healing.

scsmitty im willing to bet had you been there you would have been calling for a god. why cant you people let those who believe in a higher being have their miracles when they come along? you have to turn a positive story into a debate find another forum

For crying out loud - WHY does it have to turn into a huge debate when someone says something like "Thank God" or "It was a miracle" or similar expressions? MANY people use these (and other similar) expressions by force of habit or cultural conditioning - such expressions are NOT necessarily an indication of the speakers/writers faith (or lack thereof). Give it a rest!

differnet....my apologies if you really thought that I was insulting you....that was not my intent. Your veiled 'anybody over the age of 10' remark could be construed as insulting as well, by the way.

Now....how exactly have you deduced that you are not only more educated than me on world faith, but 'far more'? That sounds just a bit pompous to me, and probably to most any observer on this thread. For your own edification, I grew up Catholic, was disenfranchised by the organization because of all their ridiculous rules and regulations, one of which prevented my mother from re-marrying, or even dating, when my father divorced her, that I went out to study other religions. I have drawn my own conclusions based on a number of indicators. That, is my choice. It neither makes me right or wrong.

sleepinsadie-

The six year old had all the free will any of us have. What happened did not affect their "free will". It is tradgic that she died, and it saddens me immensely....but it had nothing to do with her free will.

What was the news story about again?

Pistol-

I understand where you're coming from, but a headline including the word "miracle" is going to induce these kinds of discussions.

Here we go, stevefoo.... reaching for straws. You just have to make me out to be a bad guy so that you can feel better. *sigh*

@QE137

Almost all self defense shooting happens at under 10 yards. Anything further out and you have the option of running and a shooting at that point would not be justified as self defense (except if you live in a Stand Your Ground state where you can chase people down). At that range, most people who practice on a regular bases are not going to miss.

Also, you're going to go through life wearing body armor every day? What about your face? Groin? Femoral artery?

stevefoo that is not true divorced catholics can date and remarry just have to go through the process and the have the marriage unulled. good cause has to be shown to the church. but it not written in stone if you will

differnet.....reaching for straws? I'm not quite sure how me asking questions makes you out to be a bad guy. And, I did notice that you ignored my question about your previous statements. And....on top of that, I did offer an apology for any previous perceived insults. So...what the heck are you referring to?

fhill....my mom knew that. She had 6 kids....kind of hard to get a marriage annulled 40 years ago, though. The church was much more stringent with their rules.

Reading this just makes me sad for our country as a whole. There is no reason anyone should be arguing about this story, a young lady's life was spared what is there to argue about. Before I go any further I will say that I am a Christian, I very strongly believe that God is real and present in our lives. With that said, I do not believe it is prudent to argue with people about faith. I think in life opportunities present themselves that enable us to share our stories of faith with people who are searching, that is when we have an impact. Right now though I think we all need to take another look at this story and see that this family is facing two very difficult situations, each has changed their family dynamic forever and yet they are looking to help others...think about that, they are reaching out to other victims while their family suffers and we are sitting here arguing about faith...maybe that is exactly what is wrong with this country, everyone is looking to be heard, be bigger, be better, have more, looking out for self, arguing just to be right all the while totally missing what is going on all around us, or worse...simply not caring about what is going on. Stop and think long enough to let the reality of it all just sink in...this is silly and petty and wrong.

Stevefoo-

Oh, yes they were! My mother was raised Catholic, and her family denounced the religion because the church told them they were going to hell because they stayed home to grieve the loss of her father (she was 9, and they had 9 children), instead of at church.

Catholicism is a pretty harsh sect, and was even more so back then. This is why I never went to church when I was little until I made the decision to do so.

differnet:

My only belief is everyone is entitled to believe what they choose to believe. That being said, my problem with believers is their sense of "specialness" and entitlement to force their beliefs onto others; such as religions not having to pay their fair share of taxes all the way down to someone knocking on my front door or leaving their "believer" propaganda on my porch for me to have to clean up.

And btw, you still haven't addressed the discrepancy regarding your theory of "signs" from post #1.28.

itsasadday.....chill out please. Debate is good for the mind....keeps people sharp. I too feel great pain for the family's of the people lost in that stupid, senseless act, and I hope for Petras complete recovery. I just don't want to walk blindly through life thinking that there is some higher form out there puppetteering our every move and 'miraculously' curing those deemed worthy because 'its just not their time'. Believe what you want if it makes you feel better.

Jessicalc....if you look hard enough (sometimes not even too hard), you will find this type of stupidity in all organized religions.

@differnet: I noticed you "sigh" a lot. Are you suffering from some type of respiratory condition? Or maybe suffering from a panic disorder? Or depression? These are possible reasons for why someone "sighs" a lot. Just curious.

My parents are christians and I went to sunday school when I was a kid. I just could never get over how inconsistent the bible was. In one passage god preaches about free will and in another he's destroying an entire city for going against his wishes.

I am currently agnostic because I have a hard time believing in a hypocritical god written by man a few thousand years ago. Plus, in my opinion, organized religion is sham. Some of the worst acts in human history was committed in the name of god by organized religion. You can I have the same moral codes and may even believe in the same being, but I am not following a book written by man or any group that uses religion to control.

Hatedoublestandards....I noticed that too (about the "sigh' thing). I attributed it to the general condescending overtone of most of differnets posts. I am hoping its the respiratory thing....but am pretty confident it's not.

Just based on what is reported in this article, I'm not sure that anyone in the affected family, particularly the sister or the victim's boyfriend, think God had anything at all to do with the shooting or the recovery efforts from it. Maybe they do and thought better of saying anything about it in public. Maybe none of them believe in God. I don't really know. And I really don't care. If I don't care what they think, I sure don't care about what YOU commenters think.

I'm glad she was so fortunate, if that's what what you want to call it. I wish her a speedy, full recovery, and her mother too. I think she has the best kind of family support system, and I don't think religion has anything to do with it. It's the power of good people working towards a common cause. We don't need god to get that done, we can just do it ourselves. More power to those people who have it within themselves to have "the faith", and to be good and act good whether or not there is a god. It can only help the cause, regardless of what else you might happen to believe in.

Hey Differnet,

Thanks for the patronizing dreck.

Someone on here said something like: "Whether God was involved or it was just plain luck, this story is cool."

REALLY?.......... REALLY? I don't think so!!!!!!!! What would have been cool is if the shooter shot this girl at point blank range and NO PELLETS hit her, now that would have been cool.

God is a by-product of evolution, the day that man looked into a calm lake as he drank from it and recognized he was looking at himself, God was born, in his own image. The day we became sentient beings was the day God was born, the day we all figure out that a God is redundant, God will die.

Differnet--I have to disagree with Atheists lives being meaningless. I also believe that faith is not necessarily baseless. I also know several people who are atheists and their lives are NOT meaningless. One of those I know is my nephew. He has meaning in life, as well as a strong ethic, as well as compassion for others. The way I see it, how well a persons belief system (weather some form of religion, atheism, agnosticism, or whatever their modus operandi) or their PERCEPTION of their belief system enables them to have compassion for others and to make the world a better place---THAT is what counts. Having compassion is necessary to counterbalance the striving to make the world a better place, because without that you get people like Hitler trying to make the world a better place according to his crazy notion of what constitutes a better world.

differnet - Whatever happened to "Judge not lest ye be judged."? You are mighty judgmental. I guess you do not believe in Jesus?

Want to know where God was when all this happened? Not in that theater. Nobody not even a believer is thinking about God at 12am at a Batman movie.

For those arguing about the bible having contradictions, yes there are plenty and there are some outrageous stories, but there are morals to the passages so even there isn't a higher power in your heart or mind something in it will get your moral compass going a bit, (even though 2000+ plus years later the talks about persecution of Christians don't seem so far fetched anymore) forget the rules in it even though a lot of laws are based on it, and then again it's all common sense. I just hope that if you don't believe that you're still a good person, because I understand what is like to be dissappointed and hurt by God's people but I'm not in it to please them, my belief is between me and God you don't have to like it and you can't talk me out of it. Bottom line is that I'm sure we all agree in justice no matter what faith or lack thereof for the victims and their families even trolls can agree with that.

For a deity that supposedly committed mass genocide in the Bible, it's pretty hard to see the reasoning behind "GOD is GOOD".. Once you can reconcile genocide of babies, kittens, puppies ect with the intent to not just kill them, but to drown them as the choice for eradication is just as psychotic as this kid walking into a theater and blowing away peoples children, girlfriends, boyfriends, husbands, and wives. Common sense would involve people of supposed faith to actually critically think about that and what exactly they are worshiping. Hence, it's no big secret that the GOD in question was a War GOD, "God of the Armies", and a very narcissistic one at that. It even boggles my mind to see Christians upset about abortion when their own god they worship essentially, according to the bible, did just that on a global scale that makes even Hitler, Pol Pot, and even Stalin look like panzy wannabe mass murderers. :/

Now I am sorry if this offends people, but facts of this nature are usually going to be offensive. People don't like dealing with such facts since they hit too close to home, or reveal how messed up their beliefs are.. :/

The argument for the existence of a god is for another time and place. Did a "miracle" occur? No. Miracles are, by definition, a suspension of natural law. Had the pellet entered her head and suddenly, without explanation, made a turn to avoid blood vessels in it's path, that would be a miracle. Or, as Major Tom pointed out above, if she were shot at point blank range and no damage done, you can argue for a miracle. In this case, the bullet entered her head and continued on a straight path, luckily (not miraculously) missing major vessels.

The word "miracle", like "hero" and similar expressions, tend to get used in entirely inappropriate circumstances.

But the real miracle will be when VERY strict gun control is passed in the whole country.

If citizens are not allowed to arm and defend themselves, how will we be expected to defend ourselves against our government, who will always remain armed, if necessary?

And Jessicalc:

The six year old had all the free will any of us have. What happened did not affect their "free will".

That's not true. The six year old's free will not to be shot and killed was definitely involuntarily impeded.

Also, there are other survival stories such as this:

http://sinisterdreams.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/carli-and-chriss-story-continued/

Carli Richards Story of Survival. (Saved By Tear Gas)

* I hope to not offend anybody by saying this, but I wasn’t touched by an angel, I wasn’t “blessed”- I had a good head on my shoulders and I used it.

That's not true. The six year old's free will not to be shot and killed was definitely involuntarily impeded.

Exactly.. Free will by definition would be without any constraints or shackles. Saying we are given "free will" and then have it routinely violated by reality is making the concept an oxymoron. Hence, people are trying have their cake and eat it to. As an example, where is my free will to be GOD so I can go back and prevent this nut case kid from killing someone Else's kids? Oh, free will is a fallacy, and you are only capable of doing what is possible within the limits of what is actually possible. Hence you are shackled and any free will you think you have is an illusion in reflection of what actual free will would be..

We understand this just fine thank you very much. It's you who came on here claiming that it was a mircale. That god had twisted the laws of physics for the good of this one person. Than it's you who claims that bad things can't be stopped because it's against free will and that's why everyone else died. An atheist understands why this has happened just fine. We understand why it is that a baby can roll over in a car 20 or so times with out a scratch and why a baby can die from drowning in a small puddle 2" deep. It's because reality is indifferent to our plights. Here is exactly why these conversations unfold like this.

Believer: It's a mircale that a bullet passed through someones head and she survived.

Thinker: (So this person says their god did intervine to prevent a death which is a good thing) Okay so if this is a good thing than why did your god not intervine and save everyone?

Believer: God doesn't want to take away our free will!

Thinker: (So god wants people to act out their will.) Than why did god oppose Holmes's will to kill this woman since your claim is that this is a mircale?

Believer: God is loving and merciful and acted out to save this woman!

Thinker: So......... If this is a good thing than why not save everyone??????

Believer: God want's people to have free will!

You see? You understand the frustration. We are trying to understand YOUR position and we can't because there is nothing reasonable about it. It's a huge loop of two statements that cancel each other out. Atheist are comfortable with how things works. That reality is just this cold emotionless medium that we make better by understanding how to make it work with us. Hence seat belts, helmets, floaties, insurance, doctors etc. etc...

I'm thankful she survived, but something tells me she'll wish she was dead when she sees her medical bill. If it cost me 2.3k just to find out I had a kidney stone, I don't even want to begin wondering how much of her life they're going to demand from her over saving her life. It's saddening that humans can put a price on the lives of others so easily...

skeptology

If God is the creator of this world, it is his to do with however he sees fit. In his mind, if one wrongful death gets just your attention and gets you to change your way, perhaps that is what He will do.

He wants your willing acceptance and submission. Not acceptance and obediance out of coersion or bribery!

If you make something, and it refuses to do what you would like it to do, What would you do?

Uh... in your first statement, you just posed GOD as doing exactly that, trying to coerce and bribe....

If you make something, and it refuses to do what you would like it to do, What would you do?

Disassemble it and build another.

If you make something, and it refuses to do what you would like it to do, What would you do?

For those who believe in the myths, looks like every one born will be heading for hell.

If you make something, and it refuses to do what you would like it to do, What would you do?

Question why it is, that with unlimited power, perfect choices, and a knowing of absolutly everything through out all time, I still managed to create something to worship me and it doesn't even know of my ever present existence.

skeptology

If God is the creator of this world, it is his to do with however he sees fit. In his mind, if one wrongful death gets just your attention and gets you to change your way, perhaps that is what He will do.

He wants your willing acceptance and submission. Not acceptance and obediance out of coersion or bribery!

If you make something, and it refuses to do what you would like it to do, What would you do?

Talk about Psychotic.. It's like trying to reconcile the demonizing of one mass murder while worshiping another genocidal one as "righteous".. What you posted is not only messed up, but something we would expect to hear from psychotic mass murderers that are entirely Ego centric and Narcissistic. Hence, this entirely falls under Psychopathy. Religious people that say such things and believe it are seriously brainwashed nut cases O.o ... DB, don't have children, and if you feel like killing, take yourself out first.. :/

@Jontrent - NOTHING happens for a reason --- it is all Random and occasionally someone gets lucky - that is a mathematical certainty! If you line up 1200 people and give them all a penny to flip and after each flip of the coin those who flipped tails have to step out of line - at the end of 10 flips of the coin there will be ONE person standing there who flipped Heads TEN TIMES IN A ROW. That is randomness in nature. There IS no hidden hand of fate - no GOD making this person more "lucky" than the others. It is just the way mathematical randomness works in nature.

agreed, fortuitous seems a more appropriate term.

Finally, my thoughts exactly.

Bap-

By that logic, every breath you take is a miracle, because you are simply still alive.

Jessicalc said:

By that logic, every breath you take is a miracle, because you are simply still alive.

You're pretty bad with interpreting logic.

boom!-

Nice handle, I like it.

What I meant, is that if you're saying a miracle would be she didn't get shot at all, then you would never consider it a miracle anyway...because you would not have known she wasn't shot out of anything but happen-chance.

Does he consider it a miracle that not everyone there that night was shot?

Is it a miracle that I, or you (I'm making an assumption here), have never been shot?

Bap was being pretty sarcastic in the comment, mocking the use of "miracle" around here.

Bap's post wasn't meant to be taken literally.

You sure? Doesn't seem sarcastic to me, but I'll take your word.

It IS a miracle, believe it or not.

Here's ONE meaning of the word "miracle"-

a wonder; marvel.

It's extremely rare a bullet goes into someones brain, all the way to the back of it, without killing them, is it not?

It's also extremely rare when you win the lottery. Miraculous? I don't think so.

It wasn't a "bullet" that went though her brain it was a tiny shotgun pellet. About the size of a steel ball in a ballpoint pen. Statistically speaking, the odds were pretty good for her actually. No hand of God needed.

Nah, "miracle" simply says a series of contingent events happened so that luckily she suffered less damage than would be expected. And miracle is one of the most over-used, meaningless words in the English language today, along with hero. But you already knew that...

Hatetheists.....how very Christian of you. It's amazing how religious people get offended when atheists claim there is no God, but it's completely ok for the religious people to claim to atheists that there is a God.

Anyways, I'm glad that this woman survived. She truly is very lucky. It's a good thing she has a great medical team to help with her recovery.

Yes, but your fundamentalists jump on a word like "miracle" and drive it to the bank. Doctors should avoid using that word at all, especially given that they are scientists. If you can't say something scientific, don't say anything at all!

Tetrapod: I do agree with 'hero' being used too often and indiscriminately. The blame falls on the liberal camp for that "everybody is a winner" gag.

Burt,

Im atheist and I think she was damn lucky, that's it.

If you are going to thank god that she was saved, do you blame god for the ones who died or are permanently impaired?

I just need to know what the 6 year old girl did to warrant not being saved, any idea?

Rod_Father: Those were the doctor's words as reported by NBC. The folks at NBC are the liberal experts on everything. You should be asking them, not me. Maybe they can clear up your confusion and soothe your mind. I'm just a regular guy, sorry I can't help.

You are however entitled to your beliefs Rod.

Burt,

You used quotations for what the doctor said, anything beyond that I assumed was your personal statements. Sorry about my confusion but I believe it was you who stated thank god the young lady survived.

That statement prompted my questions, which you failed to answer.

Rod: Yes I said 'Thank God that the young lady survived'. I meant it and furthermore - I am entitled to my beliefs, just as you are entitled to believe in nothing.

"Miracle" and "Lucky" are simply ways that we selectively choose to perceive strings of contingencies as we wander through life. What are the odds that she would have chose to go to a movie on this particular day? What are the odds she chose to see the midnight showing of a movie rather than a matinee? What are the odds that she lived in geographic proximity to the shooter? What are the odds that she chose this particular theater? What are the odds that she chose this particular seat? What are the odds that she didn't have to step out and use the bathroom right when the shooter opened fire? What are the odds that the bullet entered her brain rather than elsewhere? If you add up all of these contingencies the odds of any particular event no matter how fantastic or mundane, are miraculous and almost certain to have never occurred by chance. But of course, we only choose to string together particular contingencies to call them miracles, particularly ones that support our pre-existing beliefs and biases. The real miracle is how the human brain chooses to find miracles in some places and not others. Regardless, I'm glad her injury was not as severe as it could have been, but I wouldn't call this even miraculous, or at least no more miraculous than any other event that happens in a person's life.

Burt,

You just have no answers to justify your belief?

LOL, belive in nothing?

Rod_Father: I will attempt to answer the questions for you (though this does not mean I do or do not believe the same way and am not inviting an argument). I think Christians DON'T blame God for the ones who have died (in this circumstance as well as others), no matter the age, because the Bible states that due to the evil in our own hearts, He allows these kinds of things to happen without interference, and that we are ALL His children in the end and it is up to Him what he lets happen to us. As for thanking God that this particular victim survived, Christians believe that God takes people at different times based on the purpose He has for them, and that God's timing is not our timing, nor His understanding our understanding. The Bible states that God's people will be persecuted, oppressed, and sometimes killed, and those who want to gain eternal life have to have faith and be willing to suffer in some pretty horrible ways.

Anyway, if you aren't Christian, clearly it doesn't apply to you, but there is nothing wrong with allowing the believers to have their hope. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with letting atheists have their non-belief either, so I don't see why people can't just leave each other alone and have respect for the way different people believe. Simple beliefs don't harm anyone, and I think atheists and Christians/people of any other religion have a lot more in common than they would ever realize if they would just accept each other. The only lives we are ultimately responsible for are our own, and being hateful doesn't help anyone.

The truth of the matter is, the ONLY favorable way to die is old and asleep in your bed, and the chances of that are pretty slim. Death is inescapable for all of us, and usually is not at all how or when we would want to die.

This woman is in fact INCREDIBLY lucky; I'm so glad she has made it through such a terrible event. There may be a long road ahead for her and her family, but I hope they are all grateful for the time they have. We never know what moment may be our last. I truly hope her mother makes it through her battle with cancer and that the family can find some peace.

Thank you for making all these nasty hate filled vitriolic comments. It just goes to show what good Christians are really all about.

Burt--I kinda like the term 'hatetheists' - I interpreted it as applying to the extreme of both sides of this dispute. What I DO enjoy, BTW, is when I see 2 people discussing their differing ideals/beliefs in adult, respectful, considerate terms. Kind of like people putting their best foot forward in the free marketplace of ideas. I mean, if the nation, and quite possibly the loved ones of the victims of this horrendous act of violence have to see a disagreement in the comments of this news article, wouldn't it be better for them to at least see it discussed in a civil manner rather than argued by a bunch of 'hatetheists'?

My thoughts, prayers, compassionate vibes, whatever one wishes to call it, goes out to the victims of this senseless insane act.

"It just goes to show what good Christians are really all about."

No it doesn't. Christ taught to be respectful towards other's beliefs. If others don't do that then that would be their choice. Then again, I would agree that there is a difference in being christian and actually being christlike

let me break it down for the non-believers, from another non-believer:

as COmommy says, GOD takes us when are work here is done...and leaves others who's work isnt finished.

so it's the one time in life being a procrastinor pays off.

unless you are a non-believer, well then, you're just screwed...no point in being a really good person and doing really good works, but not worshipping GOD, he'll let you die in a tragedy like this in a heartbeat...because what he really values is worship, not being an awesome person.

The problem with using the word "miracle" in the article is the clear connotation and association with religion, especially Christianity. The doctor never said "God" saved the young woman (actually, it was the surgeons who operated on her who did that). But plenty of religious and non-religious people jump on the word "miracle" and turn it into a debate about God.

Cracks me up. Pedantic prattle of how superior superstition is to logic and reason. What worries me is that Dr. Rauzzino must have talked directly with God in the past couple of days, because he "knows" it's a miracle. Patients should run not walk from his practice. Hearing voices is mental illness.

And for all the believers out there I have a couple of questions:

Why has in the history of man has God never regrown so much as a pinky finger on an amputee? They don't pray as hard as you do? The answer is here: www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com

Why did you stop burning witches? Did you run out, or was religion forced to change its "truth", its dogma, when society no longer accepted your superstitions, yet once again?

Faith=Superstition. End. Of. Story. Sorry for the interruption, please return to your regularly scheduled fantasy.

@hatedoublestandards

The doctor did indeed say it was God because he said 'miracle'

mir·a·cle
[ mírrək'l ]

1. act of God: an event that appears to be contrary to the laws of nature and is regarded as an act of God
2. amazing event: an event or action that is amazing, extraordinary, or unexpected
3. marvelous example: something admired as a marvelous creation or example of a particular type of science or skill

@Arsenic-2609663: See? You've just proven my point. The first definition does indeed refer to "God". However, the other two definitions do not make any mention of "God". Only because most people automatically assume a reference to "God" when someone states "miracle" does it become a religious phenomenon. Again, I reiterate that the doctor did not actually say "God" saved the young woman. He specifically said: "What made her so fortunate was the trajectory of the bullet as it passed through.” Nothing in his statements about God.

So expressing an opinion is intolerant? You guys are have already started name calling, but any reaction to your intolerance is just intolerance on our side, huh?

usagi-sensei: They're here now,..they must be late sleepers, takes 'em a while to get all that hate revved up.

nah, we had no real reason to be revved up until you started spouting nonsense

Burt,

You are the only one that I have seen use the word hate.

Umm...I am a liberal atheist and I thought it was a delightful story.

I didn't realize I was supposed to be spewing hatred or something.

Sorry to not live up to your expectations. Perhaps you need to examine yourself. People, in general, expect from others what they themselves are willing to give.

Actually, I think the non-believers are much more tolerant than the 'believers'. When was the last time any of us showed up at your door preaching non-religion? When was the last time ANY of our wants were enacted as a congressional law? And, when was the last time any of us told you that you weren't going to heaven because you were wrong? And lastly, have you ever seen any of us espouse hatred towards any group or organization simply because 'our book' told us to?

Funny how most people who believe in god will tell you that there is only one god, theirs! So, there are something like over 3000 different religions. Let's use 3000 for discussion purposes. Believers will ridicule non believers because they do not believe in 3,000 gods but its ok if you do not believe in 2999 of them?

That's a good point you have Rod but look at from the Christian view of things, in the Bible it says that God is a jealous God and there shall be no other praised except Him (or something similar to that).

Confucious said "relax and enjoy it."

Rod,

More than that. Many religions have multiple God and deities. Only three of them (that I know of) are monotheistic. And people say they are not the same religion.

Geo,

I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, thanks for the info.

Wow, atheists are the most intolerant when it comes to YOUR beliefs? LOL that was too funny. Thanks, I haven't laughed that hard in a while. I could honestly care less what you believe in, so how bout you stop trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else s throat. OK?

See guys, here's the thing. There are Christians who are jerks. They shove their religion down your throat, and damn you if you don't believe like they do. There are also Christians who strive to live a Christ-like life, and accept you for who you are, and love you anyway. There are atheists out there who think that if you believe, you are somehow of inferior intellect, and will make fun of you, and call you names. There are also atheists who don't care what you believe in, and will simply judge you on your character.

Don't lump "all Christians" or "all atheists" in the same category. We are all different people with different beliefs, and some of us just have a screwed up way with dealing with that- on both sides.

I will too! I may not have much, but all my bills are paid and I have good food to eat. They can have all my extra cash.

I'd love to be able to help them out too!

Push your faith much?

Said the person trying to get us to read a book called miracles

well that goes to showing that you don't understand God at all, clearly you're hellbound, when you see God on your judgement day tell me He aint real. And just for a heads up it'll be way too late to say you're sorry.

vague threats of future punishment are the arguments of a fool....."you'll get yours, someday!" is quite pathetic

bap-2192115 - Not trying, merely suggesting. Since C.S. Lewis is a genius and an awesome writer why wouldn't you want to read anything he's written? No faith pushing on my part. Mostly I just find it very amusing how atheists get so bent out of shape for Christians pushing their faith on others, when they are guilty of the same "anti-faith" pushing on others. We all do it, anybody who expresses an opinion could be called guilty of "pushing their faith" on you.

fear and intimidation are the tools of organized religion. somehow people fall for the idea that if they give money to the church they will be automatically admitted beyond the pearly gates, lolololololol, you cant make this stuff up, ohhhhhhhh but I guess someone did.

I aint the person threatening anybody, I'm just stating simple facts. Also to Rod if you give money to che church you'll be blessed and you'll know it too. For a few weeks up until last week I didn't give anymoney to the church which is also Gods money, not ours and I was depressed didn't see any place in life for me and now I gave them a $5 and now I got a gf (thought it would never happen), money coming in and lasting longer and all sorts of other good stuff.

mutated species: you may not believe that this was a "miracle" and you don't sound like you believe in God, but if you asked one of her loved ones, I'm sure that they would have a different opinion...

sounds like better money management to me.

hmmmmmmmmm it's god's money, never heard that one before.

good luck with the gf, the 2 hardest things in life, in my opinion, are staying married and raising children.

@rod, all depends on the church. where i go, no pressure, if you can donate great, if not thats fine too. they will not approach you unless you hold out your hand. there is a lot of negative publicity regarding organized religion, the bad makes more news than the good.

@ juanita, not sure who that was directed at but I'm a huge believer in God, everywhere I go I mention His name, I try to spread the Word, my goal in life is to be a preacher someday.

@ Rod, you would have to go to a church and try it yourself, being opened minded to the idea of God in a country that has freedom of religion never got anybody killed. But the idea behind giving is to be cheerful about it.

"I rather believe in the brain fairy than thank any so called god for this girls"luck"."

Hmm. The most mathematically dense scientific theory of man explaining existence itself suggests that there could be an infinite number of universes each with different sets of laws, properties, ect. This means that, as far as we know, anything we think of and IMAGINE could and eventually will exist...many times. That's right. As far as we KNOW your brain fairies are inevitable. The funny thing is, I simply claim to believe, not KNOW, that there is a God. But if you truly KNOW that there is no god, you should have no problem explaining exactly HOW God can't exist... anywhere. After all, if there is any possibility of some type of god or God existing, you wouldn't actually KNOW god doesn't exist. So if your going to tell me God is impossible or that you know he doesn't exist I would simply ask HOW.

Canadian,

C.S. Luis had a much different take on God then modern day Christians do. Aslan was his analog for God in Narnia and Aslan was not above killing those who were truly evil enough. Sure he did not take pleasure in it however when the chips were down he at least had the fortitude to help those in need.

What the Bible says about the "real" God is that he will not help you directly. You will never see nor hear him, he will never directly influence your life. He may not even save you when you are in danger. This theater business was a good time for God to prove his existence by helping those people who were in a helpless situation. Instead we got crickets. If God is not willing to help those that cannot help themselves because of the situation they are in, he is impotent.

I put much more faith in the works of Man than God. God has never saved anyone from burning buildings, fire fighters did that. God has never saved hostages from a gunman, the police have done that. America has never been protected by God, our military and our right to bear arms has done so. It was not God that killed Hitler. It was not God that killed Bin Laden. All of these acts were Man's work, not His. Famines in Somalia, disasters killing billions of people over decades, dictators ruling over populations with an iron fist and killing people as they please.

So what exactly has God done to help us in these latter years? This is the question that made me become an Atheist. I could not find the answer and at the age of 10 I quit going to Church and put no more faith in the Bible than I did in Santa.

Ya I suppose it would be easier to believe in a god that just reaches his massive hand into our atmosphere and scoops us all up into some heaven. after all if there is a god this surely should have happened by now....

Ooh, "brain fairy." I like that!

So God was not so miraculous with the ones who died eh? It seems insulting to the victims.

I also take offense that you imply that God was only willing/able to perform one miracle. What about the rest of the victims?

Let me tell you something. Everything happens for a reason. It is always the will of the All Mighty Lord, and you have no right to criticize him. Don't like it? Read Job.

Couldn't agree more. Everything does happen for a reason. I have read Job and I do believe in Miracles. I also believe in a God who has the right to do what he wants with a people who have turned their backs on Him.

I’m haunted by my God
Who has the right to ask me
What by the nature of my rebellion
I cannot give.

What as people do we deserve other than death? Really, what have we shown on the whole to be good by nature?

I also believe in a God who has the right to do what he wants with a people who have turned their backs on Him

Nice qualification to your sentence there... "with a people who have turned their backs on Him." So, only the faithless died? Believers were spared? Of course not. God is an indiscriminate killer. You can't sugar-coat this. Statistics don't support the statement that he kills the faithless more than the faithful. He just kills whomever he wants. Such a merciful God.

Canadian:

" I also believe in a God who has the right to do what he wants with a people who have turned their backs on Him".

Oh man. I really hope you aren't implying that those killed got what they deserved, or that the reason they died is because they did not have a strong faith in Him.

I like to think that He was calling them home to be with Him. :)

Don't believe in miracles?

Listen to/watch "Miracles" by the Insane Clown Posse.

"Don't believe in miracles?"

Sure I do. In fact, didn't one take place in 1980 on Lake Placid?

"Unknown" is when you can't explain what or how something happened, "knowledge / understanding" is how you can. "Foolishness" is when you make up stories about imaginary, invisible friends in an attempt to make the "unknown" known.

When I can't reason why something happened, I don't make up some fictitious character to attribute it to.

It still baffles me how people will attribute the survival of this girl to their god, but they won't 'blame' or 'thank' it for the other 12 people that died. Hypocrisy everywhere!

Alan i can explain it - thats where the bullet landed - therefore no miracle - just like the 12 innocent people that were not so lucky - grace - dont even know what that is - the grace of something that does not exist = nothing

How about we just attribute it to physics? Problem solved!

Praise Physics! It's a miracle!

They're not reading your message.

EG, what does it matter? If this person wanted to comment and doing so gave them pleasure or comfort or whatever - what harm does it do? And do you know for certain that no one in that family will read these?

EG-715158

Are you certain of that or is it just supposition on your part?

I truth, I made a similar post on another site referencing a different story, and a family member (or at least one that claimed to be) thanked me and would pass along the wishes.

Besides, even if they DON'T read it, does it bother YOU that much?

Thank you for your well wishes (yes I am Petra, knowing how the internet is I don't care if you don't believe me).

Please don't fight over me!

Too soon.

Kevin, I'll pray for you.

You got some serious issues there Kev.....did you take your meds this morning?!?

Shawn, Thanks so much for nothing; literally!

JFC, I'm completely med free and god free. I do take issue with revealed religious nonsense because it insults human intelligence. I choose to comport myself as a rational human being rather than as a sheep.

So those who wallow in the self loathing of 'judeo/christianity,' should consider; shepherds don't love their flocks; they eat them and wear their skins.

KevinMC: have you ever heard of the word "tolerance"?...I suggest that you look up the definition. You have a right to your opinion but it doesn't give you a license to ridicule and belittle what other believe. You have proven that you are devoid of class.

have you ever heard of the word "tolerance"?

So this is tolerance?

You got some serious issues there Kev.....did you take your meds this morning?!?

You Christians preach a lot of stuff you don't follow.

Juanita,

Here I will defer to one learned scholar of the English language:

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson

Why should primitive superstitious nonsense be 'tolerated,' and worse, passed off as truth? Where should we draw the line? If its OK to believe in angels, then why not Leprechauns? There is exactly as much evidence for both...

Jesus' message is this: Believe in me or I will burn you in a fire forever. That is not a rational, reasonable nor tolerant set of options.

It is also devoid of class.

@Z- ridiculing other people's beliefs unprovoked? I sure hope not. D-head

Do as I say and not as I do mentality huh? Most children get past that by junior high. Guess you guys aren't past that.

The doctor said that it was a miracle that the pellet passed all the way through her brain without damaging anything major and he had never seen or heard anything like it before. For physicians, anything with an occurance frequency below 2% is considered to be in the "miracle" category. Doctors don't give out 0% odds, because there is always the possibility of something happening that they simply can't explain. This appears to be one of those cases.

Nobody said that God protected this young woman from death at the expense of the other victims. That is a lazy interpretation by any standards and, as far as I have seen, has no credible theological standing.

Kevin - the sane and the rational are with you - shawn and jfc - pray is nonsense and pointing out the obvious lunacy of these beliefs does not mean someone needs prozac , it points out the delusion of the so called faithful

@trebleclef-686218: Well said, and I agree. There are plenty of incidents where people have been shot in the head and survived.

- A bullet to the brain "for us is almost a [once every] weekend occurrence, and some of them survive," said Dr. Rafael Quinonez, a trauma neurosurgeon at Providence Holy Cross Medical Center in Mission Hills.

-A British soldier told yesterday how he survived after a Taliban sniper’s bullet passed through his brain.

Sorry to burst the bubble of people who wish to see the hand of God in this occurrence. The brain, like any other part of the human body, is both quite delicate, and yet also resilient.

Kevin,

You kill me bud. I am laughing inside. I find your comments so funny because I used to be just like you (my beliefs and understanding of life) until a certain set of circumstances showed me and proved to me that my beliefs and understanding of life weren't always correct. Be ready brother because sooner or later, something will happen to you, if it hasn't already, that will rock your insides that you won't have an answer for and you won't be able to deny. It's then, that a spark will ignite something inside you that will create a transformation from the inside out. When it happens, just go with it. It will be awesome and those around you will notice it as well. Trust me, it's a good thing!!

Kevin MC: you just proved the point I was making about people that are intolerant with your pompous and pseudo-intellectual retort.

Shawn,

In paraphrase; You'll be just like me when what happened to me happens to you. That is arrogant, ridiculous bull@!$%#. It recalls the old movie Invasion Of The Body Snatchers. Go on, just go to sleep, when you wake up you'll be one of us. Well I ain't buying it; you got no argument so you get smug; amature.

Juanita,

I'm not a pseudo-intellectual; I am an aspiring intellectual. I realize and admit I don't know everything. However I do know this; abandoning reason and intellectual free will to 2650 year old superstitious gibberish is anti-intellectual.

Ignorance is cureable... stupidity is not. Ancient humans were ignorant. Several thousand years of hard work and discovery has cured most of that ignorance but there are still plenty of holdouts. I don't care if you think I'm pompous to point them out.

Judeo/Christianity is no less preposterous than Scientology; it is no less mystical than Astrology or Voodoo; it is no less brutal than The Aztec Cult of the Sun. This is not opinion, it is simple fact; all revealed religion is alike.

What you call ridicule is simply pointing out facts and flaws in logic by reducing religious beliefs to their essential ingredients. I can't help it if you are embarrassed by what your belief system expects you to accept.

I don't make this stuff up. I've been studying religion for 40 years. I was born into catholicism and thank goodness I survived to be able to think for myself. I agree with others who maintain it is the nature of belief itself which is intolerant.

The instant one person says, MY beliefs are the truth they are expressing intolerance of every other belief because there can only be one truth. That's not intellectual, pseudo or otherwise... just common sense.

So 12 people were killed and God abandoned the theatre? You neglect to mention those that were not killed. As horrendous as this act was, there are positives that can be taken away. Stop focusing on the negative all the time.

So 12 people were killed and God abandoned the theatre? You neglect to mention those that were not killed

Clearly god isn't omnipotent, using your logic.

I did mention those that were not killed. Did you even read my post? If you read it like you do the Bible, you would see I ended on a VERY positive note. Blind faith is very dangerous Sir.

If it would have turned into a pie in mid-flight then it's likely the velocity of it would have obliterated her entire head. Of course it's also possible that at that velocity that it also could have disintegrated and rendered no harm at all. And the 30 seconds it took me to think of those two possibilities indicates I have WAAAAAAY too much time on my hands! LOLOL

But in all seriousness, really glad that she wasn't harmed even more.

Why can't there be ONE miracle in tragedy? Why does everyone have to be saved in order for it to be a miracle of any sort?

Because one "miracle" indicates selectivity (malevolence) or lack of ability (not omnipotent).

If you attribute her luck to god you also have to acknowlege that god is either impotent or unjust.

If God was a goalie for a soccer team and let the other team score 12 goals. Then he got switched to forward and scored only 1 goal.

As a logical person, which would you see as the better of the two outcomes?

I rest my case.

And their head-wound miracles.

But to be fair, I don't see why Colorado is any worse than, say, Illinois, where 40 people were shot in one weekend (in Chicago... that's Illinois, right?)

that statement can best be described as a mental masturbation.

Shogun357: Well told.

Magnets are one example of God's miracles. How do they work?!?! Crazy man.

Shogun375,

You are terribly mis-informed about a lot of things and definitely missing something. Let's just say the pellet in question would would have passed easily through your cranium without the slightest danger of injuring a vital organ.

The bible (OT) was first written in Hebrew around 650 BCE The word miracle comes from the Middle French version of the Latin word Miraculum, meaning to wonder. The NT wasn't written in Latin before the mid Second Century, so your statement that a common Latin word like miraculum originated in the bible is pure hogwash.

Furthermore, the bible is predated by hundreds of thousands of pages of scriptures from other religions which contain innumerable references to signs, wonders or miracles. The bible contains direct rip-offs of stories from Egyptian, Summerian and Babylonian scripture. Two examples: The Ten Commandments (Code of Hammurapi) and the Flood (Gilgamesh)

A short list of scriptures older the bible includes: The Enuma Elish; The Mahabarata; The Upanishads; The Avesta; Epic of Gilgamesh; The Iliad and The Odyssey.

In addition, there are over 60 ancient religions that contain the following components of the Hero Epic: A Virgin Birth whose sire is a god; Magical healing powers, including raising the dead; Prescience; A god who becomes a man and has a mission to fulfill which concludes with his death, resurrection and ascention into heaven to sit in judgment of men.

Three Hero Epic examples: Hercules; Osiris; Appolonius of Tyrhanna

Crack a book that is not a work of fiction sometime... take a break from fairy tale land and at least visit reality sometime.

F100supersabre: I looked through some of your previous comments, like the one from July 3, where you express concern about victims of Pneumonic Tularemia disease in Cambodia. You seem to be a concerned and enlightened humanitarian on the surface.

Maybe that's why I found your comment of #21 - Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:18 AM EDT so disgusting. You wrote: "Should have used slugs" that seems to be at odds with your humanitarian nature. By 'slugs' you meant rifled shotgun slugs, the kind of projectiles that are much more likely to result in a massive head trauma, and cavitation with a large wound channel. Is that some kind of atheist joke?

Let us hope that young lady's family does not read your brutal comment.

I don't know if F100supersabre is an atheist or a believer in God, whatever he is, what he said is INNAPROPRIATE! Burt, you described what a slug would have done very well, and you related that you've seen F100supersabre express compassion on a different blog. Perhaps he didn't realize what he said--acted before he thought about it. I remember when the Challenger blew up--and within a week, people were making stupid jokes about it. People sometimes use humor to deal with a horrendous situation, and sometimes jump into it too soon. It's a psychological thing that people do to distance themselves from the pain of it.

Lisa C-5522681: Lisa, I would truly like to be wrong about his comment,.I hope that he can correct me and explain that statement in some light other than what it appears to be. That was a very specific comment, with very specific meaning. The terminology might be a bit esoteric for some, but for others it speaks volumes. Violently obscene would be an understatement.

I appreciate your opinion Lisa, you're trying hard to see a lack of malicious intent, and that's fine - we certainly need more optimists.

Thank you, Bert. Yes, I tend to be an optimist:)

Butt hurt!

I guess I'm being a little insensitive. This kind of tragedy happens all of the time in countries fighting civil wars. Only when someone goes on a killing spree in america does it make front page news. Its annoying, how companies like MSNBC pay so little attention to atrocities happening else where in the world but seem to capitalize on coverage of tragedy like the movie theater shooting in Colorado. I watched a 15 minute segment on CNN a few days ago about civil wars in Northern Africa. These people have no food, or clean drinking water and live in awful refugee camps. In america, we care far more about Americans suffering then the suffering of those in other parts of the world. We seem to care more about the kardashians then all of the carnage in Africa and in the Middle East.

Absolutely!

NBC addressed the issue about the congenital defect in the article! The NBC article says that story about the congenital defect originated from the girl's pastor, and then they published a statement from the girl's SURGEON saying that it is not true. I think he'd know.

My bigger concern about accuracy in this story is that it contains two completely different descriptions of the path of the bullet, within the same story! Editing, anyone?

It seems weird you guys referring to a very small shotgun pellet as a "bullet". it might be technically correct but it brings up a more miraculous picture within the mind. Such a small piece of lead could easily pass through a person's brain and miss vital areas.

Some people wrote about a flood that happened. So what.... The weather channel reports on floods all the time. Is there some holy meaning in that too? You are getting away from the main point of the article anyway.

Have you read the book 11/22/63? It uses things that actually happened as a basis for this fictional novel. I have read many historical fiction books. Not saying that proves or disproves anything - but exactly the opposite! Just because it IS in a book does not make it real. (Especially the bible which has been translated and revised so many times over the years I am sure it has been mutilated)

I'm a divine creation, created by a divine God, you can always tell who sprouted from a monkey, by their intellect or lack there of.

I'm a divine creation, created by a divine God

lol. God must have been drunk when making us then, because we have a lot of unnecessary pieces and could be improved dramatically. Soon we people will have the ability to improve our basic biology... So I guess we are better than god, huh?

Just because you cannot understand evolution doesn't mean a god made you.

You are a prime example! No miracle, no divine intervention, just chance. What an ignorant comment.

if evolution is real then explained how monkeys were created. Also explain why if we evolved from monkeys why there still are monkeys.

@ CTwildheart, read Revelation 21:8 tell me if that stirs you you gotta open your mind though, if you don't that shows how narrow minded you are. Now if you do read it with and open heart and mind that will be proof that God is real.

has to be a troll...

if evolution is real then explained how monkeys were created. Also explain why if we evolved from monkeys why there still are monkeys

Holy crap, really?! In a lab we have breed fruit flies to the point that they are a new breed incapable of mating with other fruit flies. The old fruit flies still exist, but we now have a new species too. This stuff is really basic.

@colt1775

I didn't think American education was this poor.....

Sorry all you doubters in God. It is a fact that most all scientist and astrologist, do now believe that the universe and everything in it was created by intelligent design, sure there was a big bang, but they have determined that it was caused by intelligent design. The odds of it just magically appearing are slim to none, if you believe that, you believe in the tooth fairy, start thinking outside the box, all you evolutionary's, stop thinking like a mere animal, animals don't have any sense of perception of the future. They only see the here and now, when humanity thinks that way, we're in big trouble. Wonder what intelligence did the designing, oh that's right, God.

Shogun,

Seriously?

It is a fact that most all scientist and astrologist, do now believe that the universe and everything in it was created by intelligent design

You're gonna have to back that up, buddy. Cite sources, please.

The odds of something from nothing may be slim, but no slimmer than the odds of a god.

And, really, who is looking toward the future: people who point to a very old book for their "truth", or the people who are out actively looking for answers?

Shogun,

Put down the nunchucks before you hurt yourself.

You can dig up Civil War cannon balls all over Atlanta GA today. We can all agree there was a Civil War and Atlanta Ga does exist; so using your profound logic, the existence of Scarlet O'Hara and Rhett Butler can be historically confirmed.

You are claiming because something is mentioned in the bible, it is true. That's a form of failed argument from authority and it's also nonsense. There are many things mentioned in the bible which are confirmed false, fabricated or 'borrowed,' from other cultures.

For instance the bible says bats are birds; it says rabbits chew the cud; it says the sun goes around the earth; it says the earth has four corners, which also implies it is flat... Get a clue. The bible is a primitive fairy tale.

@Shogun357: "It is a fact that most all scientist and astrologist, do now believe that the universe and everything in it was created by intelligent design..."__Ummm... you do know what astrology (and by extension an astrologist) is, don't you? Makes it hard for a person to take your arguments seriously when you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not sure what the movement and relative position of celestial bodies influencing human affairs has to do with a belief in "God" or intelligent design. Please clarify.

@Shogun357: "Main stream theologians and archaeologist alike have in fact discovered that many of the events mentioned in the Bible did in fact happen, like the great flood, that evidence shows dates back to the time period mentioned in the Bible. In recent years many discoveries have found creditable evidence to support the claim."

Huh? You're comments are borderline nonsensical ramblings.

1) I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your statement "evidence shows dates back to the time period mentioned in the Bible." Please clarify what you're trying to say here.

2) Re: great flood. So far there is no actual evidence to support there was ever a great flood that covered the entire earth. Most people now view it as a metaphorical story, and not historic. Also, there is yet to be found any evidence of the mythical Noah's Ark. (Side note, Noah was supposedly around 600 years old when the ark was built and the rains flooded the earth for 40 days and 40 nights. Do you really believe people lived to be over 600 years old?!)

3) Please provide proof of your statement: "many discoveries have found creditable evidence to support the claim." Putting words like "discoveries" and "creditable evidence" into one sentence doesn't make a statement factual.

The absence of proof, isn't the proof of absence, wake up from your slumber.

Shogun,

You have misstated the adage. It should read, 'The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' Proof is a more rigid criterion than evidence. It takes multiple threads of evidence to amount to proof. No one has ever seen a carcinogen in the act of causing cancer... and yet the overwhelming statistical correlation provides enough evidence to satisfy the definition of proof.

Believers would accept as proof (the ONLY proof) of the supernatural, a book written 2650 years ago by nearly 100% UNKNOWN authors. The only verified author of ANY book of the bible is Paul. No one knows if David actually wrote the Psalm or songs attributed to him or if they were written ABOUT him.

Please tell us what other 2650 year old knowledge you put to practical everyday use in your life. Do you keep Kosher? What other 2650 year old beliefs do you entertain? Why don't people live to be 900 years old today like they did 2650 years ago? Just think, if they did, King David could be your great grandfather!!

Moses certaily did not write Pentatauch, because it speaks of him in the third person continually and ends by telling us when and where he was buried. Believers claim this book describes the actual events of the creation. Please tell us who exactly witnessed that???

The problem with the bible (and nearly all sacred scripture) is that it reads exactly like any other fictive narrative all the way through. Not one New Testament author was an eyewitness to a single biblical event. Every one of them speaks of events at least twice removed from personal experience.

100% annonymous Old Testament authors write about events that preceded them by thousands of years as if they were witness to them... this is glaring evidence they fabricated their tales from an ancient oral tradition... that is why there are conflicting versions of so many bible episodes. (Ten Commandments, Number of Animals on the Ark, Days of the Week During Creation).

The bible contains contradictions on the very first page. It contains plain, factual errors about the natural world. If it were the word of an Omnipotent, Perfect being that would not be the case. The bible is a flawed, ordinary, garden variety creation myth in the OT and resolves to a common 1st century sacrificial death cult in the NT.

The evidence against the bible is in the bible itself. The only evidence the bible is true is that it says so... IN THE BIBLE. That's a little disingenuous isn't it? There are many, many works of fiction that start off the same way. The first release of the movie Fargo opens with the following text:

THIS IS A TRUE STORY. The events depicted in this film took place in Minnesota in 1987. At the request of the survivors, the names have been changed. Out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred.

The story is entirely fictional and later versions deleted the above and even included a disclaimer, and yet today many people continue to think those events really happened.

The bible is a beautiful cultural artifact, filled with fine poetry and much common folk wisdom. But it is not special, it is not unique and it is not even very original. It contains talking animals, virgin births, sacrificed and resurrected heroes, and seven headed dragons. So do the Iliad and the Odyssey.

"Also explain why if we evolved from monkeys why..."

*record scratch*

It's dip-switch questions like this that drive me crazy. Not only do people asking these ridiculous questions not have a basic understanding of evolutionary theory, they then go on to lecture people as if they're an authority on the subject. All because the "magic book" tells them something different.

We didn't evolve from monkeys. Modern monkeys evolved to what you see now. Humans evolved to what we see now. We had a common ancestor some 5 million years ago, long before we shared a common ancestor with the great apes.

God can't control people, that's why He gave us freedom. It's all up to us to choose how we use that freedom. God couldn't take them to the hospital because He has no human vessel to use, way back in the day Jesus Christ was Gods vessel so God is duel natured therfore He can do stuff like get them to the hospital, just needs a physical body. As for the last two I can answer that just don't want to tick anybody off.

@ Colt, but if your god is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, 'he' knew this was going to happen, watched this man as he prepared over a period of months to commit this horrific act, then 'stood' by and watched this tragic circumstance unfold. How sad.

You are attempting to say that god is not omnipotent, because he

just needs a physical body

...however, the bible is riddled with circumstances in which god did not, and accomplished what he wished regardless. This line of thinking (as with others in your comment) goes against your holy book, but apparently fits well with your version of the myth.

that's just how I've heard it used. I might have it messed up so it may sound misunderstanding but I'm just trying to repeat in a slightly different way what the preacher said a few months ago. As for you thinking it's a myth I have witnessed over 3650 people get the Holy Ghost which is this spirit of God within them. It's basically getting high off of being in the presence of God. In Acts 2:38 it says "And Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized each and everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost" now first you repent, that's when you the Holy Ghost then you have to follow Acts 2:42 which says to remain steadfast in the apostles doctrine and finally you get baptized. I saw 3650 people speaking in tongues which can only be done if you have the Holy Ghost.

It's basically getting high off of being in the presence of God.

Colt, thanks for the reply. I know what it means...I'm a 'recovering' christian (ie: was sincerely and without a doubt in my mind saved, lived it, breathed it, preached, taught, served as a deacon, evangelized, lead people to christ, etc., etc. for years.....then came to the realization that christianity was a myth....long story real short).

As for you thinking it's a myth I have witnessed over 3650 people get the Holy Ghost which is this spirit of God within them.

People do this all the time w/their version of god. Muslims do it (in their own way), hindus in theirs, etc., etc. People all over the world and throughout history have had what they believe to be genuine spiritual experiences with their god or gods....the spiritual experience is similar, but the god or gods they believe in can be drastically different.

Just because someone thinks god is with them and they can do this or that, doesn't mean it's true....let alone your version of god doing it. What if there's an evil god who can cause people to speak in tongues, just to lead you astray in believing superstitious nonsense about their being a good god? People don't believe this, of course....but why not? It's, in part, because they don't want to believe there's an evil god. And when people want to believe something (and there's social pressure to believe it as well), it doesn't take much, if any, actual evidence.

that's just how I've heard it used. I might have it messed up so it may sound misunderstanding but I'm just trying to repeat in a slightly different way what the preacher said a few months ago

does someone hear a sheep bleating? Here's an idea, think about it for yourself.

As for you thinking it's a myth I have witnessed over 3650 people get the Holy Ghost which is this spirit of God within them.

*Sigh* that is pretty sad. Linguists have discerned no repetitive language syntax on glossolalia samples (so it isn't actually a language). The same behaviour is documented in Sumerian, voodoo, and pagan religions that don't beleive in your god. Brain studies show an increase of activity in emotional centers of the brain, and a decrease in language centers, again suggesting this is not a language. Lastly, it has been shown that it is a learned behaviour.

Sigh! Sigh! It is really depressing when a psuedo-intellectual pontificates on a blog.