E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSSuspect James Holmes, who seemed dazed and unengaged in court last week, on Monday appeared alert and attentive as a judge told him he faced 142 separate felony charges. NBC's Mike Taibbi reports.
Prosecutors on Monday filed two sets of first-degree murder charges against James Eagan Holmes for each of the of 12 deaths that occurred during a theater massacre in Aurora, Colo., on July 20, effectively laying the groundwork for a fallback strategy in the event Holmes’ lawyers successfully mount an insanity defense.
The dual charges — "murder with deliberation" and killing with "extreme indifference to the value of human life" — give the jury a choice of two avenues to a potential death penalty sentence under Colorado law, NBC's Pete Williams reported.
Under state law, murder with deliberation is equivalent to premeditated murder, while the "extreme indifference” charge covers actions that demonstrate "an attitude of universal malice."
It isn’t unusual for prosecutors to file two murder charges for one victim in Colorado, according to a prosecutor cited by the Aurora Sentinel.
"It’s very common for prosecutors to charge cases in all of the various ways that they believe they can prove a case," Karen Steinhauser, a former Denver prosecutor now in private practice, told the paper.
Holmes, who appeared briefly in court Monday morning to hear the charges against him, also was charged with 116 counts of attempted murder, as well as one count of illegal possession of explosives, according to court documents.
A former University of Colorado graduate student, Holmes is accused of carrying out the bloody attack on moviegoers at the midnight premiere of "A Dark Knight Rises" after wiring his apartment with enough explosives to have leveled the building if they had detonated.
In Aurora massacre, trial may not shed much light on motive
During his second appearance in court since his arrest, the defendant spoke once, saying "yes" to waive his right to a preliminary hearing within 35 days, according to a tweet by Denver Post courts reporter John Ingold.
The trial could turn on questions of Holmes' state of mind, Craig Silverman, a former chief deputy district attorney in Denver, told the Associated Press.
"I don't think it's too hard to predict the path of this proceeding," he said. "This is not a whodunit. ... The only possible defense is insanity."
According to the law in Colorado, defendants are not legally liable for their acts if they cannot differentiate between right and wrong, the report said. However, "Care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred or other motives, and kindred evil conditions," the law stipulates, the AP said.
Drawn-out timeline
The court schedule suggests that Holmes will not enter a plea until at least the week of Nov. 12, NBC News' correspondent Mike Taibbi reported. The timing allows for deliberation on how much evidence will remain sealed from public view, including communications between Holmes and a psychiatrist at the University of Colorado.
Last week, law enforcement gained possession of a package that Holmes apparently mailed to the psychiatrist, Lynne Fenton, before the attack. Unconfirmed reports said that the package, which had not yet been delivered to Fenton, contained a notebook with writings and illustrations of shootings.
Holmes' attorneys said Fenton had been treating their client and that all communication should remain private under doctor-patient privilege. News organizations have asked the judge to unseal the contents of the package and communications between Holmes and Fenton.
Not until after the plea is entered would the prosecution announce whether it will pursue the death penalty for Holmes if he is convicted of first-degree murder. Prosecutors have said they would seek input from victims before making that decision.
The minimum sentence for first-degree murder in Colorado is life in prison, Taibbi reported.
Poll: Views on gun laws unchanged after Aurora theater massacre
Holmes was enrolled in the neuroscience Ph.D. program at the university but withdrew in June. Neighbors said withdrawal from the program would likely have triggered his eviction from the building, which is reserved for people affiliated with the school.
Investigators said Holmes had amassed weapons, ammunition and explosives over the course of several months.
He was arrested in the parking lot of the Century Aurora 16 theater shortly after the shootings and told officers his apartment contained explosives, police said. That information prompted evacuation of Holmes' apartment building and those surrounding it until law enforcement teams could disarm the jumble of wires and explosive devices set to detonate by trip wires.
Police said he referred to himself as Joker, an apparent reference to one of the villains in the Batman comic series.
In his initial court appearance on July 23, Holmes was dressed in red prison garb, and had his hair dyed bright red. He looked off into the distance or down at the table, at times knitting his brow in a quizzical expression or as if he was trying to concentrate. He did not speak.
In this second appearance, no cameras were allowed in court. Holmes appeared with his hands and feet shackles according to the Sentinel. He was unshaven and his hair color had faded, it said.
Denver Post courts reporter John Ingold tweeted from the hearing that "Holmes was more put together today. His hair was combed — though still red. He seemed to pay attention. Not quite engaged, but listening."
According to another tweet from the courthouse from Coloradoan reporter Trevor Hughes, "suspect Holmes showed no reaction when judge told him he faces poss. death penalty sentence if convicted of murder."
The courtroom was packed on Monday, reported Denver Post staff reporter Kristen Painter, with an overflow room for victims and family who could not get in or did not want to be in the room.
Painter tweeted: "A woman, escorted by victims advocate, walked into courtroom crying-clutching a photo of 6-year-old Veronica & her mother," — a reference to Veronica Moser-Sullivan, the youngest victim to die in the shooting, and her mother Ashley Moser, who was critically wounded.
Holmes will not face an additional homicide charge for the miscarriage suffered by Moser after she was injured in the shooting, NBC's Leanne Gregg reported.
More content from NBCNews.com:
- Family: Mom wounded in Aurora suffers miscarriage
- Sources: Kidnap victim found tied up in detective's garage
- 3 killed in Pa.; suspect fled with daughter, 4
- Video: 'Full of life' -- Colo. victims mourned
Leave a Comment:
The only possible defense is insanity.
And he is already trying really hard to get away with this one. Apparently he "does not remember anything, and he does not know why he is in jail" I sure hope the prosecutors don't fall for that.
Were did you get the information that he doesnt remember anything, or know why he is in jail? I have followed the case closely and have not heard or seen that info, I think that might be speculation but who knows, ussually all the BS starts coming out now.. people looking for attention....
Just think of the time and money that would have been saved if only one person could have had one clean shot at his head.
Holy POW Batman, it wasn't me, I was framed
This guy makes George Zimmerman look like an angel.
I feel bad for him, he is caught up in a world of guns and just lost it. Hopefully they get him the help he needs so he can back to being a decent member of society.
@am.can: The guy was wearing bullet proof armor, head to toe.
So if anybody at the theater was packing (like the NRA and those "geniuses" keep touting) and attempted to be a hero, all it would have done is add another fatality/wounded to the list.
Are you serious Vivian?????? Pull your head out of the sand.
Vivian the help he needs is a chemical cocktail given intravenously.
Were did you get the information that he doesnt remember anything, or know why he is in jail?
The NY Daily news broke up the story this morning. He is also complaining about the food in jail.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/exclusive-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-claims-amnesia-article-1.1122289
I think Vivian was trolling for a response, nobody is that lame!
Vivian, are you high on crack? He should burn at the stake, it would save a lot of money and time.
So you think that's normal, eh? He just did it for fun. I'm not buying. There has to be an explanation. From intervention of an evil force to the government testing chemicals (it has happened in the past and it will keep happening), there must be an explanation and I would like to hear it.
Notice I did not say a single word about justice. I'm not getting into that. I am just saying I would like to hear an explanation that makes sense.
I personally don't care whether the guy is mentally ill or not. Stick the needle in his arm and be done with him.
Let's hope the death penalty is handed down fast.
@Jimmy Two Times, I'm with you.
your all Nazi's...act like it.
the system is corrupted deal with it
i will be falling off my seat if this guy walks due to a search with out a warrant
Might be nice if someone explained to him why he was in jail. Just so he would stop asking.
Oh and do let him know that there is one more piece of blood on his dirty hands - an unborn baby that was supposed to be a healing child to the family that lost the 6 year old. Note to shooters - don't shoot at women's stomachs - there might be a baby in there.
Wondering why they did not charge him in the death of Ashley Moser's baby? That would make 13 souls lost.
He's faking. What he's doing is imitating a sleepy child. Go to YouTube, you can see hundreds of videos of the same movements. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's not very good at it.
Yeah, if only someone could have gotten a clean shot at his ballistic helmet in the dark, smoky, crowded theater.
@Vivian, you feel sorry for him???? REALLLY!!!!!????!!!!! He killed sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, friends, and you "feel sorry for him" because he got caught up in the gun world??? Wow. People are entitled to their opinions, but that's a pretty awful opinion, just saying.
and could see in the dark with a bright movie flashing, and both breath and see through tear gas, and of course know it was coming, be loaded and ready, with the safety off, and have armour piercing bullets!
if ONLY all those things, oh and also not be trying to cover or protect those around him, ya know, like the real men in those theaters did.
gun nuts: stupid, unrealistic, and obsessed wih rambo fantasies.
Our justice system is a joke. Two weeks after the massacre, and finally all of the lawyers get together in the court and read some charges, while Holmes basks in the publicity for which he committed the crime, and his would-be copy cats have multiple orgasms. With the hard evidence that exists, they could have, with plenty of due process, tried and convicted this puke, and today everybody could have gathered for his execution.
actually, truly, i cant wait for the next mass shooting to happen where somebody stops it with a concealed handgun, just so for THE FIRST TIME EVER it actually happens the way gun nuts say it should and they are actually correct ONCE.
Morton.. if everyone was armed there might have been even more deaths in the theater.People should be focusing on how this pyscho brainwashed terrorist ( a member of the dark forces of batman) got so many guns.Only very strict national gun control can prevent these types of massacres.Guns.like cyanide and poisonous spiders are extremely dangerous..leave them around and someone´s going to die or be extremely wounded.National gun control NOW! .
heres what a surpised and armed POLICE OFFICER did to his own son a week ago.
http ://www .syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/07/rochester_man_shoots_and_kills.html
you'll have to reconnect the htt p and the www since it wont post links
OMG @ Vivian! I had to reread your post to make sure that there was no sarcasim intended. You are ridiculous to think that this POS should have an opportunity to be "rehabilitated". Are his victims given a chance to be a apart of society again? Along with that, "the world of guns" had nothing to do with his pure evilness. People need to stop blaming everything else and blame the criminal!
I'm sick and tired of a system that categorizes an obvious murderer as a "suspect".
Hey Cheese Monkee & Morton McG...
Just because you two can't shoot straight, it doesn't mean that noboby can. On the topic of body armor, it's NOT bullet proof. Even military-grade body armor can be pierced with the proper weapon and ammo. On the topic of getting around a ballistic helmet, notice my pic: the face is NOT protected by it. Yes, there are those of us out here in the real world who can and will make that shot on a regular basis. Two in the melon by a trained CWP (Concealed Weapon Permit) holder would have saved a lot of extra lives and blood shed. But, people like you two seem to want all of us law-abiding citizens to have our firearms taken away so that only the criminals have them, right?!?!?!
cool hacksaw, so youre admitting its all YOUR fault that you werent there to protect us. why werent you THERE bro?
you could have saved ALL those lives with your prowess?
"I'm sick and tired of a system that categorizes an obvious murderer as a "suspect". "
yeah man, TOTALLY! i cant believe people who actually support our constitutional rights as citizens either!!
Let him have his day in court...we all deserve that...then take him out back and put a bullet in his head. Then we as tax payers do not have to support this NUT case for the rest of his days. He should never be released into society ever again, and should just be shot for what he did and how he planned it out.
He is acting the insane role....mark my words it will come out this is a game to him to see how far and what he can get away with.....just shoot the POS and be done with it.....after the trial - after all we are not animals like he is.
dmatthews3 - It was in recent news reports. He's asked the guards why he's in jail, and said he doesn't remember the attack. I agree with the first comment, the guy is just trying to avoid the death penalty he knows is waiting for him. Guess he doesn't remember buying all that gear, rigging his apartment, and mailing the notebook detailing his plan. Everything falls in line with other mass murderers. It's a sign of what's wrong with our country that this pathetic excuse for a human being is still alive. Take him out and shoot him.
hacksaw, you should put your address on here and go "out for hire!"
seriously, the rest of us need people like you out there when we go to the movies.
you should advertise your gun safety awesomeness and prowess.. also advertise how you're able to see in the dark and through teargass and also to be able to breathe it! those are special talents not everyone has.
"Let him have his day in court...we all deserve that...then take him out back and put a bullet in his head."
yeah!!!! just like in CHINA! GO communists!!!!
we can DO it!
IDIOT.....you really believe that this POS deserves anything else but a bullet in his head.....yea let him have his day in court...he does have that right....but WHEN found guility...end it and end his day in the sun.
why wait for that? vigilante justice man! stupid constitution gauranteeing us freedom and right to know our acusers and have a day in court!
plus, if we just execute him right there on the spot all the dead will come back to life and be ok!
i dont really care what he deserves. its not my place or my business. all i care about is public safety. he is off the streets and cannot shoot anyone else. that is as far as it affects me. and he aint ever getting out, so thats fine by me.
yes, idiot.
He does not deserve a bullet in the head. He deserves a bullet in the spine, and then toss his paralyzed body in the desert.
Oh, and hacksaw, I'm sure you're a very good shot standing up in a well-lit gun range with nobody shooting back.
Read what I said moron/.....he should have his trail and WHEN they find him guilty --- shoot him in the head and be done with it...do not give him any more time to have his 15 minutes of fame.....I believe he should have his day in court....but again - WHEN they find him guilty do not let him sit on death row or in a nut house....just take him out back and end it right then and there....no more fame for him. The people he shot did not get that and nor did they ask to be shot....this NUT needs to be taken away from society on a permenent basis.
@bart martin....
Sure Mr. President
Bart martin gun control? really? Taking away guns from innocent people will not fix anything. Education is what is needed. If someone doesn't have a previous record or mental issue what would give anyone the idea that they are going to walk into a theatre and shoot it up? This is all on the idiot who made the decision to do it. Obviously he was planning it and he would have figured out a way to complete his plan.
Cute, Morton & (non)believerof. But, you two have no clue as to the ammount or type of weapons training I have recieved or instructed others in. CPW holders aren't "Rambos". We mind our own business until something like this happens in our immediate vicinity. The CWP holders I associate with are well versed in escalation and use of deadly force. I did rather enjoy that little remark about going "out for hire". It goes a long way in exposing your anti gun stance. Remember, the right to bear arms and defend one's self is also a Constitutional right... oh thats right, it isn't the part of the Constitution that you are particularly interested in.
Colorado has the McNaughton rule of insanity; even if you are considered having a mental illness; if you knew it was wrong to do the act, your insanity defense will not prevail;
as for the comment about a search warrant of his apartment, one is not needed if the suspect has informed persons, of hidden explosives that could endanger others; however he was not even charged with that at this time; Vivan; everyone knows you were pulling everyones leg, I am surprised some people even fell for it,
The chance of him not being convicted is the same as walking down the beach and finding a 20 carat, perfect, flawless diamond laying on top of the sand.
@ hacksaw:
Most personal defense rounds are hollow points, not teflon tipped ballistic armor penetrating rounds.
Even a CWP holder probably wouldn't have taken out this nutbag, as they wouldn't have a gas mask themselves, nor the ammo necessary for a swift takedown.
I'm a lifelong owner of firearms. there are many who legally own firearms, who I wouldn't trust if they always had one concealed on them.
If you are going to carry a firearm, then you should have to have your mental stability evaluated, and not be using ANY drugs that can alter your mood/perception, nor be drinking ANY alcohol products.
How many who want to carry firearms, will follow those rules?
This guy should get the death penalty. I'd recommend publicly hanging him.
Yes Vivian, I'm sure he is in considerable pain. I think as a society it is our responsibility to remove his pain...permanently!
Obviously, the prosecutors aren't falling for it, otherwise they would not be charging this man with murder. I rather suspect you are concerned about how well the jurors will be able to discern the truth. I am not too worried, as most persons with common sense will be able to conclude that no one who has spent 7 months collecting firearms and ammunition, body armor, etc, along with meticulously planning out and wiring the "booby traps", not to mention his letter he sent describing his plan, would be clueless as to what he did or how he ended up in jail. A person who truly does not remember committing a violent crime would have commit said crime likely as an impulsive reaction to an acute anger episode. (Of course, I personally do not believe that everyone to whom this situation potentially applies truly does not recall their actions). Persons who plan out crimes months in advance have full knowledge of what they are doing; and the fact that they plan in secrecy is evidence that they know what they are doing is wrong.
The man screwed up. I have dealt with several persons who, for personal/financial gain, have thought they are smart enought to be able to "fake crazy," and they always manage to give themselves away, as we can see in this case. He possibly may have had a better shot if he had prepared and rehearsed a well thought out, "logical" explanation as to why his actions were appropriate and justified. (And by "logical," I mean to say that one could easily follow his thought process to understand how he reaches the conclusion that he must kill, maim, and destroy - not that he exhibits appropriate judgment). "Insanity" is best exhibited in cases where a person readily admits to his or her own actions, and feels that he/she has committed no wrong-doing. Even this type of mindset is hard to "fake," and anyone who attempts this usually ends up acting in a way to contradict the state of mind he/she intends to convey.
Barring some absurd legal technicality, this man will be convicted, I am sure. As to whether or not his ultimate sentence will fit the crime remains to be seen...
Really dragonflycw? Education is the answer? I believe in this case the killer was quite well educated, don't you? You are right in that if the individual is not reported as a mental patient or criminal we can't prevent him from walking into a theater and shooting the place up. We can however, ban the 100 round drum magazine he brought and perhaps lower the carnage.
He'll get away with it....this country caters to the mentally ill. Poor guy...he is not competent to stand trial. Lets put him in a home and feed and care for him, label him as "doesn't play well with others" and piss all over the victims and their families. Anybody with the smarts to stockpile weapons and trickwire his apartment is certainly capable of understanding right from wrong. This boils down to PURE EVIL and knowing that our judicial system will excuse his behavior to insanity. He's already playing the victim...and well too. Would surprise me if it even makes it to trial.
yeah...@!$%# due process....guilty until proven guiltier....hang him then burn his body at the stake...yeah..@!$%# the constitution and the bill of rights too...they are just outdated rags anyway... we got american idol to watch
If he was too crazy to know what he was doing when he killed 12 people, he will be too crazy to know when he is being executed for doing it. Not a problem for me.
All you anti-gun people... If he hadn't said anything about his apartment being armed with explosives then the people who would have gone in, be it police, the manager, or anyone could have blown that building and themselves up.. There are laws against having explosives and that didn't stop him from having them and setting the up to kill.. So you want more laws? Just who do you think actually uses deadly devises then? It sure isn't the law abiding citizens.
And once again I accurately predict the headlines of the future. Kind of spooky, isn't it, the way I did that?
Laws don't stop criminals, Joy. If the law abiding give up their guns, criminals will not. Or...the law abiding will become "criminals" by hanging on to their property. Thank God for handloading equipment.
Only criminals use guns for criminal purposes. Can we outlaw criminals? If guns are turned in on "gun buy back" programs, they are destroyed, melted down and used for something else. How about the same for criminals?
He would end up on a high security ward at the mental hospital with a bunch of people locked away for offenses that are just as heinous, not in a "home." They share the same twisted code of honor as a normal prison population - you don't harm mothers or children. He did both and there are plenty in either place that would be willing to kill him for the credit.
Come on!!!! This guy was a neuroscience major, he knows exactly what to say and what symptoms to imitate to try and get off on an insanity defense. I just hope there is not some bleeding heart idiot lie Vivian on the jury who lets him get away with the nonsense. Then he would spend a couple of years, if that, in a nice comfortable hospital bed before he is magically sane again and walks out the door. You will never convince me that this guy was insane in any clinical sense of the word. What he did was cold and calculating and certainly was not done by someone who was clinically insane. He knew exactly what he was doing, he knew it was wrong, and he did it anyway. He showed a clear consciousness of guilt following the attack as well. It is only now that he and his lawyers have concocted this insanity defense because they know that is their only hope of keeping this guy from the execution he deserves. There is absolutely no question here that he is the one that killed and injured all those people. He meticulously planned this entire attack. He was careful to go to multiple gun shops to buy his weapons to avoid raising suspicions. He was careful to accumulate his large quantity of ammunition from multiple sources so as not to raise any red flags. He went to the trouble of getting body armor to protect himself during the attack. These are not the actions of someone who is insane, they are the actions of a cold, calculating murderer. This guy was not and is not insane in any clinical sense of the word and deserves to be executed for what he has done. I just wish that some cop had put a bullet through this guys brain at the scene and saved us from the circus that this trial is going to become and saved the victims as well as their friends and families from having to endure the trial and endless appeals that we all know are coming.
I volunteer at a high-mortality city animal shelter, and the rule in 99% of our injury cases is that when an animal hurts someone, it's put to sleep. We understand that sometimes it's in self-defense (child poking a stick at a dog) and the exception to the rule is when the dog is attacking an intruder or someone out to hurt its owner or protecting property.
But if it has bitten someone who is not trespassing on the dog's home territory, it's euthanized. We understand that sometimes it's not the dog's fault, that there are other factors--sick, hurt, defending, whatever--but one it's attacked a human being it can't be trusted not to EVER do it again. Once it's gotten a taste of human blood, and knows that humans aren't gods and we can be hurt, there's no way to be CERTAIN it will NEVER happen again except to put it to sleep.
I think the same rule should apply here. While mitigating factors may be to blame for whatever caused him to perform this act to begin with, the simple fact is that short of a lobotomy, there is no way to guarantee that it will NEVER happen again, and so for the good of society he either needs to be segregated from the population or 'euthanized'.
Didn't see that coming.........charging a guy who kills a lot of people with murder.........who would have guessed that one.
hey Kari Huus...can you please just report the news and not give your opinion.
"He looked off into the distance or down at the table, at times knitting his brow in a quizical expression or as if he was trying to concentrate."
This nut had LEGAL guns!! And he qualified for a carry permit in most states (I don't know Colorado's laws) but that doesn't mean everyone that has a LEGAL weapon is nuts nor does it mean that everyone that has a legal weapon isn't nuts! The weapons are not the problem-- the criminal nut case is!!!! And as far as someone carrying a weapon in the theater and stopping him, I find that unlikely. My husband was a Marine marksman and he agrees that in the dark, with tear gas and with the full body armour even he would be concerned about firing his weapon. This was a tragedy that has nothing to do with gun rights. It has everything to do with a MURDERER!!!! He also had a knife if I understood the first news reports.
Lobo,
I agree with your statement that there are plenty of people out there in the general public in possession of a CWP who have no business with one. During the CWP class I took, I noticed a couple of individuals who were of highly dubious ability and need. Indeed, one of them tried constantly goading the instructor with bogus situations whereby they would be justified in drawing their firearm in defense. To the instructor's credit, he cut them off by asking them if they were prepared to go to jail. Yes, there is a need (at least in some places) where the criteria for CWP qualification and application are in need of stiffening or revamp.
The part I dont agree with you is the no drugs or alcohol EVER. Mental evals? OK, but define "regular intervals. This is why I disagree with this part: under your rules, even the military would have to be disarmed. Even the Infantry would have to leave their weapons in the arms room. Permanently. There is a difference between chronic drug and alcohol abusers and those of us who have an occasional "old fashioned", daiqueri, or beer.
Lastly, you don't need teflon tipped ammo to take down someone with a ballistic helmet or a pro-mask on. Yes, plate-carriers and ballistic helmets stop personal protective rounds (hollow points). In the instance of weapon & ammo versus body armor falls to the law enforcement community. The point I am trying to make for CWP holders is that its all about shot placement. Hell, even with the military and law enforcement its still all about shot placement. As I have mentioned before: the face is NOT protected when wearing a ballistic helmet, and a pro-mask (gas mask to civilians) DOES NOT stop bullets! So wear your pro-mask all you want. People like me who know what I know will put one in your mellon for. End of problem.
Ironically enough, that 100-round magazine probably lowered the carnage. Those things are notoriously unreliable and jam frequently. From what I've read on the story, he opened fire and after about 20-seconds, the firing stopped--a jam-- and he switched over to the shotgun and glock. While no official count of what caliber killed/wounded who, reports seem to indicate he caused the most carnage with the 6-round hunting shotgun.
Not that I have a problem with limiting 100-round magazines. Only idiots use them. A stack of reliable p-mags is the superior choice no matter what you're doing (hunting, competition, plinking, etc).
Now, that being said, I don't think limiting magazine capacity will have any effect on these sorts of events. As Dr. Suzanna Hupp testified before congress:
"I hear all this talk about how many bullets can go in a clip. I've been there. I can tell you it doesn't matter. It takes one second to switch out a clip. You can have one bullet or a hundred bullets: it doesn't matter."
Hear her testimony here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEJFAvA-ZUE
(She was a victim of the Luby's Cafeteria Massacre where both of her parents were killed. Her testimony is heart wrenching).
But let's think about. Let's go to the extreme-- let's say firearms are completely unavailable (a pipe dream, but let's speculate). This guy obviously had some actionable experience or understanding of how to make explosives. It probably would have been far worse had he gone in there and lobbed a couple of his homemade grenades into the audience. I mean, here this article is stating that his apartment was wired "with enough explosives to have leveled the building if they had detonated." That suggests some sophisticated explosives knowledge. But hey, maybe he's an idiot, maybe those explosives were crap. How hard would it have been to fill 2 or 3 glass bottles with gasoline from the local Chevron, added an oily rag and lobbed those up into the audience? This guy was determined to cause horror. He planned for months to do it. There are literally thousands of ways he could have done this, many of them more lethal than the way he chose. Restricting firearms is a non-answer. It's a knee-jerk reaction to what is, at it's heart, a mental health issue.
Did ....Vivian get dropped on her head as an infant? ...Open your eyes lady!
She'll probably end up, Marrying this Wacko, while he's locked up!
2 to the body, one to the head. If you hit them twice in the body and they do not go down, you know they are wearing body armour, hence, one to the head will do it.
Precisely, Rod. I knew that there would be at least one other out there who grasped the concept...
Or you could just carry a Five-seveN. At least one commercially available 5.7 round has enough velocity to punch through level III (or lower) body armor. As soon as you put in a ceramic plate, though, the round is no longer effective. At that point, you'll need the designated "armor piercing" rounds to make an impact. I doubt this guy had the ceramic plates.
The far bigger concern is, of course, the tear gas. Limited visibility, panic all around, over 100 people running for their lives. A clear shot is anything but certain and, in all probability, impossible without risk to bystanders. I'm a firm believer in the 2nd amendment, but anyone who thinks a few CCW holders in the audience would have stopped the situation are deluding themselves. Could a CCW holder have stopped it? Sure. Maybe. But could a CCW holder have made it worse? You betcha.
But here's a couple of CCW success stories for reflection:
Hotel clerk stops armed robber
72-year old CCW holder stops violent attack in Walmart
71-year old CCW holder stops armed robbery of Internet Cafe
These are directed at you "Believerof" based on your comment:
There's also these statistics to think about:
* Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[13] [14] [15] Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[16]
* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]
* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]
* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]
From: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
I hope they tear the place down who want to back that place and what Lawyer would help some him
I hope they tear the place down and what kind of a Attorneys would help him someone don't care about the people that died low class Attorneys if he has one. Who would go back there. I have never seen any his movies don't plan on
I
@hacksaw - "People like me who know what I know will put one in your mellon for."
Very easy to say since you shoot a paper target in a well lit range. Try hitting something in a dark place, packed with people, after being startled is a completely different world. Even when being confronted in a well lit place by one or two "thugs" is completely different than what happened at the movie theatre.
What surprises me is why he stopped. He could have dealt so much more damage. Either way, he should be put down, sane or not.
rod and hacksaw, proof that, for what america lacks in science and mathematics skills, it makes up for in confidence.
Thank You Jonathan F. I've tried to explain this on more than one occasion. It's like herding cats. 21 feet is the standard range for a failure to stop scenario and generally coming toward you, hence the name "failure to stop" a.k.a. a Mozambique drill. You are absolutely correct, just the sudden shock alone would've diminished ANYBODIES motor skills and judgement. The sudden release of cortisol and the activation of the sympathetic nervous system generally allow us to see the real person behind the classroom commando.
wow you guys are really heros, you know! why, just why werent you there?
you should totally go to the movies tonight, armed. i trust you will do this and be looking out for everyones security. its your personal responsibility now, given your hero status as an extrajudicial expert marksman, to be at every movie theater, ready, willing, and certain you will shoot a psychopath in the dark.
get on it now! why are you still at your keyboard?
the certainness in your prose and your ego alone lends me to believe you are they type of person, the LAST type of person who should be carrying around secret weaponry.
youre angry about the shooting and WANT, and WISH you could shoot someone like this in defense.
sane americans, like the ones in the theater here in colorado, in my town, go to a movie for fun, fantasy, and enjoyment. they're not sitting there focused on defense and with their finger on the safety, just waiting and waiting, like you seem to be.
anyhow, there are no good annie oakley types touring around much these days, but with your extreme skills that you claim to have (shooting through gas masks, in the dark, amongst panicked and screaming people, able to breathe teargas, because there WAS teargas you know, even if you won't mention it, certain you are close enough in the theater (precognitive?) to be able to kill the shooter, certain the police or another secretly armed individual doesnt see you draw and assume you're part of the crime, an accomplice, and drop you trying to do the same thing as you are, certain you will not cause any collateral damage whatsoever and get distracted by others near the shooter who simply may be fleeing, at all times stone sober and with 20/20 vision and not distracted by the flashing lights and bullet noises produced by the batman fight scene) you should totally be able to make a decent living!
also hacksaw, in your accusation to me via the second ammendment, can you instruct or otherwise inform us all the hypothesis you are using to get inside the founding fathers heads regarding weaponry that didnt remotely even exist at the time they were alive and writing said amendment?
thanks in advance!
If everyone in the theater would have been armed then this guy would have been taken down.
yup! so would tons of other people. just imagine, one guy shoots, another shoots him, then someone shoots him, get everyone all firing paranoid, no one even knows who started it! just blast away! we could have had a hundred people die! why not!
"What surprises me is why he stopped. He could have dealt so much more damage. Either way, he should be put down, sane or not."
not sure he really did "stop."
most are saying he emptied the handguns and the AR-15 overheated and wouldnt fire. he was outside because he was out of bullets and either going to his car parked nearby to try and get away, or get more bullets and guns. there were more arms in his car. he probably got surprised by the cops who had just showed up and decided to give up rather than take shots.
they say he had taken off his armor at that point but its never been clear to anybody but the cops if that was befre or after they got there.
i was figuring he was nuts and just waiting for them, or he was trying to get out of there but was stopped.
@profreedom - most likely yes but there may have been more than 12 dead and 59 wounded by the good samaritans. this is a no win situation. if someone doesnt mind dying themselves there is little anyone can do other than to hope and minimize the other uneccessary deaths.
@belierof - you may be right. as loaded as they said he was i would have expected more carnage. 12 dead and 59 wounded is pretty bad though.
You're the second person to spout off with that line of crap, Jonathan. Like I told the last one: you have NO CLUE who I am or what my level of training with firearms is. I don't make statements that I can't back up. And no, I'm not going to recite my experience and training for you or anyone else. It isn't nunya. I'll leave you to ponder it all that you want (or don't want) to. I don't care about your drivel. If you have a quarter, call someone who cares.
To WMG-21: I had the privelege and pleasure of firing a FNP 5.7 a few years ago when the Army was looking at new firearms. I had just finished firing the P90 after the program manager had explained some of the characteristics of the weapon (it fires the same 5.7mm round as the FNP 5.7 pistol) and was fairly pleased with it. Then I fired the FNP and I found it a sweet shooter. Yes, it will penetrate level III body armor, but not with SAPI plates as you has stated. (unless you have military grade AP ammo for it.) It isn't the best for concealed carry, though. It takes careful placement and plenty of loose clothing to keep from printing. If you take the time and trouble of getting it right with the 5.7, it can be a decent CWP weapon.
people seem to conveniently forget the words of the theater goers themselves.
many at first thought it was part of some "special event" the theater was putting on, like a sort of skit or whatever to co-incide with the movie, until they actually saw people getting killed.
many couldnt see the shooter actually because it was dark, excepting the flashes from the gun. they didnt realize it was just one person either, as at first some said they saw someone open the door for him, which has been proven wrong at this point.
so this idea that YOU, if YOU were there would have had the wherewithall to act differently than all the other people is just demonstrably untrue.
COULD that scenario ever have happened where someone in the audience was armed and stopped it? sure. its "possible."
i'd give at about a thousand to one at best.
so, maybe after a thousand more of these mass murders you will be eventually right.
but you'd all know WAAAYYYY better than the people who were actually there. i have an aquaintance who WAS in the very room with his two sons he owns guns. havent had the chance to ask him yet. but id bet ya money he was on the floor with his sons protecting them.
@hacksaw - ok rambo. i really dont care what level of exp you have or lack. i wouldnt waste a penny much less a quarter on you.
i've seen your types before. you are a legend in your own mind and you're full of it.
You think we have an overactive plan for mentally insane persons? WE DON'T. I'm someone with a mental illness (nothing severe), and want to assist with Criminal Justice and Mental Illness one day. We throw mentally ill people in jail, don't provide them treatment, then release them, only to be re-arrested because they have NO way of getting their medications, and get themselves re-arrested to get the treatment they need.
We fail in the mentally ill process. Trying to get the insanity plea is like trying to get blood out of a rock. It is very very hard to get and prove. It's used (successfully) in about 1% of criminal cases in the United States.
Based on the fact he wired his apartment, sent his plans to the mental hospital, and bought ammo and gear over 7 months goes to prove the Mens Rea was present. Preponderance. The actus rea was there too. The actual crime was the act. All you need is concurrence (both) to support a conviction.
Believerof seems to want to uphold the parts of the constitution he likes and discard the parts he doesn't like. What a hypocrite.
@dmathew3, It was on the World News, I think Tuesday, after the shooting. They said he was asking why he was in jail. I haven't heard them say he was a town or county jail though.
@believerof, I know what your talking about somebody to use their permit carried gun to defend in this type of situation and what you say is true. A lot of people carrying guns really can't pull the trigger. There are people carrying guns and if they had to pull the trigger to shoot another human can't get past the mental block. There are stories of home owners who confronted the robber with a gun and still got robbed because they couldn't pull the trigger. The robber got the drop on them at that point. Like you say about 1 in 1,000, that's probably a good estimate.
"Believerof seems to want to uphold the parts of the constitution he likes and discard the parts he doesn't like. What a hypocrite."
again, i CHALLENGE you to insert a rationale into the second ammendment, from the point of view of the founding fathers, about weapons that simply DID NOT EXIST at the time they wrote it.
perhaps YOU are the hypocrite, or at the least disingenious. if you can include AR-15s in your argument, why not personal nukes, if the second ammendment included any and all weaponry that wasnt invented at its time of conception?
furthermore, nice strawman! who said anything about what i "like?"
you think some how i wouldnt have "liked it" if someone actually HAd shot the gunman before he murdered a dozen people, two of which friends of mine knew?
it has nothing to do with what i "like" about the second ammendment. it has to do with fantasy and REALITY.
Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal. This shooting marked the anniversary of an even bigger massacre in Norway where the killer of 69 people faced the maximum penatly of 21 years in prison with the opportunity of parole. Of all the appalling info in that article the one thing we can learn from the Norwegians is their ability to show zero emotion and to pay zero attention to the killer, as if he was nothing and did not even exist. It's subtle but rather effective, and I'm sure would drive the person, who does such awful acts to cause a huge stir and to get people to react to them, crazy.
It's hard to refute the logic of the ones who say you can't cherry pick between the old and new Testament of the Bible.
Yet the same ones who make that point then want to cherry pick the Constitution.
We want equal rights for everyone, while at the same time we want to take your right to bear arms away from you.
Just because a very small minority abuses that right does not mean EVERY law abiding gun owner should have to suffer the consequences.
Why would anyone believe that a person willing to take another life is going to respect a law that says they cannot own a weapon? Most crimes involving a weapon are committed by felons who are already prohibited by law from possessing one.
Vivian he does not need to be out in society, even if he gets help no he should stay where he is. behind bars is where he belongs.
vivian you either posted that comment just to see how much reaction you would get or you forgot your medicine.
Why the hell are we giving this @$$hole attention, he killed 13 people, yes it's 13 now, because the woman who was pregnant lost her baby due to the stress. Let's set this @$$hole $hit head on fire, but do it publicly so, we can hear his screams.
@ VIVIAN......are you high????? wtf! Exactly Antonio! It is now 13 murders!
guy with the red hair...wonder what kind of hair dye he use's...hopefully he can get some blue and white before trial...
There is not going to be a trial..so forgot about your opinions.
He's a fruitcake..will plea insane..placed in a mental 'fruitcake' building for rest of life!
We american taxpayers will pay either way..in a loony-toon farm or death row ( and death row takes like 20 years to do).
Just to beat the punch on the grammer/spelling police here..yes its ( forget..not forgot)!
Anything else you find wrong..just shove it up your azz where it belongs..thank-you!
First, to all you people say "I could have stopped him if I were there", no you couldn't have. If you were close enough to get a shot into the open space of his helmet, you would be getting full on tear gassed, and probably shot before you even realized what happened.
And for all you people going crazy about how the constitution protects the right to bear arms, i would point out that it also supports slavery, and technically should have forbidden the addition of the Louisiana Purchase, so its not a perfect document
Prosecuters stategy can be "THE PROSECUTION RESTS." There is no way a jury find this guy anything but guilty.
Better to die on your feet...than on your knees...sheep
Kumar..he's not going to be found guilty..or innocent...the plea will be that he's insane!
More people who go to regular college and even beyond it for better degree's..do have a great mind..but that mind can crack at anytime..and it does quite often in our world!
why is everyone on here so petty???? a few people are complaining about gun rights....should we not have gun rights, so that we can protect our citizens? So no one should be able to buy a gun, right? Because then no one will get shot by some crazy guy while other people are unarmed, is that the thought process thats going on here? Because i hate to break it to you but all those criminals you see shooting people didnt go to the local gun store, they bought them black market or got them from corrupt police or from international gun traders...so that whole "guns rights" thing doesnt mean sh!t when the bad guys can get them some place else. So strip away our gun rights so we can REALLY sit there like Hindu cows and be shot to death and totally not have the ability to fight back. you people have no insight into the big picture of the world. if you think taking gun rights is going to "solve" people being brutally mass murdered, you are wrong and really need to look at the world around you. A criminal's lifestyle is far different then your white picket fence, "oh happy day" bull@!$%# of a life. You better start thinking of a better way to end "gun" violence.
I hope while he waits the years it takes to actually put him to death, that doctors are able to study his brain to figure out what went wrong, so that other doctors can be aware of it, so that it will never happen again.....I am not saying that he is crazy (inasmuch as he needs to be put into a mental hospital) I know that he is "crazy" to do this, but either he had a really bad life and snapped or there is something wrong in his brain----which in that case he still needs to be on death row.
I say screw the needle, we need to do this right. Ship this guy off to Texas, hook him up to the main power grid, and light that sucker up like Christmas. The dead deserve justice.
Didn't see that coming.........charging a guy who kills a lot of people with murder.........who would have guessed that one.
LOL!
Why is NBC calling Holmes the "Alleged" Shooter?
It has been established even before the trial he was the only one who was did the massacre.
Yes, Guilty before proven Innocent. This red-haired clown has no othe choice than to declare himself Insane. All people who massacre are iInsane.
Correction:
"Innocent before proven Guilty". Is he?
Yes, in the eyes of the law he is, just like you would be. It's called the Constitution. The media is legally obligated to use the word "alleged" until conviction. What would you be saying if someone decided to make up there own rules and set someone like this, or their familiy, up for an easy lawsuit? That would not go over so well.
Having said that, the media is not obligated to use his name and to show his face........and it should stop right away. Giving him the publicity and "fame" he craves is revolting.
They have to call him the "alleged shooter" because he has not yet been found guilty by a court of law. As much as you and I and everyone else knows that this guy did it, legally, the media is obligated to call him the "alleged shooter" until he has been determined legally guilty by a court of law through use of a trial.
he's in jail, how would he even know what is published or not?
What fame? He isn't in jail watching news reports and celebrating that he is all over the news. He has no clue as to what is going on supposedly.
Those of you that want to fry him this afternoon, even if he is truly mentally ill, have NO idea what being mentally ill is about, not really suffered from it. Knowing someone doesn't count. The though processes of a mentally ill person is not like yours and mine (not talking about James here). Some mentally ill people really do live in their own world, through no fault of their own.
Same reason they keep calling George Zimmerman, "alleged murderer." We know he did the shooting...why wait for a trial and facts to be presented?
This guy is GUILTY without needing to take any more time..... PUT HIM DOWN.........
hey Vivian, #1.5, tell you what. You go get your 6-year-old niece/ daughter, we have Holmes put a bullet in her , then you can keep singing your same song!
kippy, no matter WHAT world this guy lives in, he needs to be put out of his "misery".
But unlike George Zimmerman, The people he killed never attacked him first. He knew what he was doing, and had time to plan out his sick twisted plan. He is a monster and should have to pay for each and every life he took. He knows what is going on, jails have t.v. and every other convenience we have out here, the only difference is, they don't have to pay for it, they get everything for free while they sit in jail, planning their next attack. If he does go to jail for the rest of his life, there's always a chance he can escape, whereas, if he was executed, he can never escape.
He is the alleged shooter because he has not admitted to the shooting. Zimmerman is referred to as the 'killer' because he freely admits to the killing, claiming it was in defense of his person.
There is absolutely NO comparison between this carefully planned slaughter of innocent people and the incident in Florida, which IMO (based on experience in military and civilian law enforcement as well as self defense) was the result of a neighborhood WATCH lacking the requisite training in police and security procedures becoming a self-appointed armed security guard, and lacking not only that training and experience in security, but also lacking the training in armed and unarmed self-defense required of such a "security guard", found himself in a situation he had to kill his way out of (just in case there's any confusion, I believe Zimmerman is guilty of Second Degree Murder or Manslaughter in the death of Trayvon Martin) .
As far as this "joker", more power to Colorado authorities in pressing forward with criminal prosecutions of his crimes, which I hope if he is convicted bring the Death Penalty so there is ZERO chance that he will ever get a chance to kill again, in prison or society !!
Because you are a suspect until you're convicted. That's how the judicial system works in this country.
The young man knew exactly what he was doing. Pleading insanity is only going to get him of the hook. If the system lets this happen then well something is definitely wrong about the U.S. I'm a proud American but this needs to be the on death role or send him to Turkey.
What's truly appalling is that someone's willing to tell lies in defense of this vile creature. I also don't see why insanity should allow him to slip off the hook--if he's criminally, murderously insane, he should be put down before he injures anyone else.
"Alleged Aurora shooter James Holmes to appear in court for charges <sic>" ALLEGED????? Who in the hell wrote this headline?????
innocent until proven guilty. he has a right to a trial. everyone knows he is guilty and will be put away for the rest of his life. it's just a formality.
Sag: Calm Down. The post above explains it all. It is just a formality because if they didn't say "alleged" and he (or anybody else in situations like this or similar to this) got found innocent (Yeah, like that would happen, but hear it out...) then he (or anybody else...) could sue for defamation.
Keep in mind that is just an example and odds are he'll be found guilty. However, it is just the media covering their tails in one of those "what if becomes a reality" scenarios.
They have to call him the "alleged shooter" because he has not yet been found guilty by a court of law. As much as you and I and everyone else knows that this guy did it, legally, the media is obligated to call him the "alleged shooter" until he has been determined legally guilty by a court of law through use of a trial.
The "alleged" media......
There's a fine line between genius and insanity, or so I've been told.
well there's a fine line between fishing and standing on a creek bank looking like a fool...
They have to be very careful in how they phrase their statements........His attorney could use slips by people surronding this case against the system....like taking the trail out of Colorado! Like that would help him right?? LMAO This trail needs to stay right here..in CO!! If this actually goes to trail, it will be heard by a Judge, not a jury......there are not 12 prople on the planet that can be 'impartial' to this POS!!
I'm not sure that is quite correct. If I'm not mistaken, the fine line is between genius and retarded. Not quite the same thing as insane. Case in point: I went to school with a boy who was Einstein II. Had a twin brother that was mentally retarded.
Just because your smart doesn't mean your not also insane.
I'd venture to say that ANYONE who shoots up a theater full of innocent people is by some definition "insane". But fortunately, we rarely let that stop us from punishing the bastard. (Can you say "Manson"?) They should turn his ass over to the families of the victims.
Has anyone heard about his father who is going to testify in the LIBOR hearing? Also, is there speculation that he was on a pschoactive chemical at the time of the shootings? My question is how could he be "insane" in one realm but completely capable and of sound mind to plot, supply and perform this very complicated task? In addition, at one point he was very successful academically. Was he insane then as well? It does not make any sense that he interfaced with people in his family and academically yet no one questioned his mental health. I am perplexed by the details which seem to be difficult to get.
Old saying, "There's a fine line between genius and insanity".
All you have to do is look at his face to realize that he is insane. I'm not getting into the justice part of the discussion, though. What I would like to know is what the heck happened.
Perhaps what the government should do in a case like this is run all sorts of tests on him to see what the heck went wrong. Deal with this swiftly, declare it a national security issue and turn him into a Guinea pig. I really do want to know what went wrong.
Ever talk to an extremely intelligent engineer? They are quite often confused for a savant or retard. Ridiculously intelligent, but have a hard time comprehending standard every day tasks. Many lack any real capacity of common sense. I don't doubt for 1 second this clown is completely insane. All he needed was that one trigger in life to push him completely over the edge.
Yes this was a very complicated task... Grabbing a few guns and shooting them without knowing how to operate them properly (jammed firearm) and making some home made cheesy explosives from everyday chemicals and a few poorly laid out trip wires.. So complex..
Sorry he was sane enough to put on bullet proof vest... he was sane enough to plan ahead
Insanity is a dog chasing cars, you just don't know which one you want to get. This man planned for months to do this. Stockpiling weapons, leaving letters, even admitting to rig his apartment in a show of his "insanity". He wore a bulletproof vest for his own self-preservation, knowing he would be caught and possibly shot at. Now all he has to do is convince 12 sympathetic people that HE doesn't DESERVE TO DIE!
Where the hell are you MEETING these people you describe? I don't know *anyone* who meets the description you're giving, and I've known a LOT of engineers (mining, electrical, mechanical, etc.) in my 50+ years. Do you even know what an engineer IS?
Howie: I can point you in the direction of 2 at Kennedy Space Center.
Jeanette, I don't know if you're referring to someone you worked with, or you just don't like NASA. But being an engineer usually requires a *great deal* of common sense. Who would hire an engineer who couldn't "comprehend standard every day tasks"? The ability to understand how a product or circuit or program (or whatever) will be used, and to foresee all manner of potential problems, and to be able resolve those potential problems, are hallmarks of good engineers. Perhaps grizzlyadams and you are thinking about theoretical physicists or something? Engineers have to actually *create* the things we all rely on every day that prevent our buildings and cars and electronics from simply falling apart. And the products and systems that DO consistently fail are not likely to be the ones created by the "extremely intelligent engineers", are they?
he is a suspect untill he is proven guilty, I dont understand why they are not letting us see this live like the last one.... I understand some of the reasons but it still should be on tv..
just sayin..
put him in general population already and quit wasting public funds!!!
He'll be dead in no time...desevedly so.
Wow, alleged shooter??!?! F the PC BS! Also, no court case should be watched on TV, it's not entertainment. This guy should be hung.
They have to call him the "alleged shooter" because he has not yet been found guilty by a court of law. As much as you and I and everyone else knows that this guy did it, legally, the media is obligated to call him the "alleged shooter" until he has been determined legally guilty by a court of law through use of a trial. Has nothing to do with political correctness and has everything to do with the law.
We don't know $#!T I haven't heard one witness even claim they identified him yet.
No one has identified him. The police found him by or in his car. The protective gear already off and the facemask on the ground at the END of the builiding. His car was in the MIDDLE of the huge building.
Why would his mask be so far away from everything else? Did he run down the sidewalk to drop it at the end of the building? Makes no sense.
There are photos of this but I havent the time to search for them now. They are online though.
Well, he did admit having his apartment booby trapped but that may have just been a misnomer
It does not matter what he remembers, the fact is he did it. When prov en in court that should be it. This guy should be put to death or in prison for life period. OVER AND DONE. He should not be put in a Mental Institution, or pampered. There are some people in the world that just simply have to be put away, this is one of them.
What fact are you pointing to. Do you have a link to an article where a witness identified him? No. You are assuming because of circumstantial evidence. Is he likely to be the attacker based on what we have READ, sure. So what? We need to know he was the attacker not just go on what a reporter writes.
So you were there RADDAR? You saw his face? NO ONE can identify him. It will be hard to bring up wittnesss when they all say they didn't see James Holmes, it was somebody dressed in black with a mask on.
The prosecutor has said there is no such thing as a slam dunk case, not even this one.
Kippyafd, your right about that. They have to proceed very carefully. Any numbers wrong or wrong information could make this a mis-trial. Take your time and get it airtight.
He was able to remember to tell the cops about his rigging of the apartment and the journal he sent to the school, but he cant remember bringing his guns into a theater and using them! This guy is a real POS. But because he may not remember doing it does not make him all absolved from the crime. If that were the case every one would claim they don't remember doing it "may I go now?".
Public hanging is in order. But instead of the jerk to break the neck slowly raise him up by the noose and hang him until dead. Even if it takes a week, then hang him longer just to be sure, once the buzzards come in I suppose he will have been there long enough.
I worry about your sanity!?
I'm still confused as to why he told anyone about the booby trapped apartment. If he was trying to make a name for himself?
Mentally ill people do not behave in logical ways. It is one of the symptoms of mental illness.
Did he say HE rigged his apartment? I believe he said his apartment was rigged, he didn't say he did it.
hay Sweet Potato Head, you are still alive and are still around. I thought they would have put you in a chair and light you up or put some nice drugs and put you to sleep. I keep hoping to see pictures of that, and not your stupid looking face.
Is it just me or does this guy's court picture remind you of when Phil Spector was on trial?
What it reminds me of is when I picked a friend up from jail after a weekend DWI. He had that same shell shocked look on his face, like, "WTF happened to me?"
curiuosly, why didn't the cops blow him away when they caught him, even just make something up like he tried to aim his weapon or something? Where is the L.A.P.D. when you need them?
to save more lives. what if he had set up bombs at a school or another theatre? he is the only one who knows the answers to those questons.
I think most people would rather see him imprisoned and (maybe eventually) executed. It always seems a letdown somehow when a shooter like this kills himself. There's nobody left to take revenge on!
Yes but they go straight to hell. That is worse than anything we can do to him on earth.
good point on the other locations of possible explosives or ammunitions and such...no on hell since god is all forgiving...
Assuming there is such a place. Nobody (alive) can possibly know that for sure, can they? (And no, believing is NOT *knowing*. It's *believing*, no matter how strong the belief.)
Because he removed all his gear and waited on the back of his car for the police to arrive. He immediately surrendered upon their arrival.
That means zero. No one saw him remove his gear and enter the car. He's probably guilty but instead of jumping to the conclusions mat we should listen to the evidence first.
He doesn't deserve to die quickly, let him suffer in prison out in the population..maybe he'll piss off the right person and get beat to death or cut up good and slowly bleed out in the dirt like the dog he is ...don't givea @!$%# if he's nuts...do him like the mad dog he is .....
LAPD is busy out selling drugs they confiscated in drug raids. So much coke, so little time.
i agree,but we both know how people are armed with cameras instead of a gun,an if the cops did that you know damn well someone with a camera would have had it on data an the cop or cops would be looked at like a..holes and a cops family would be ruined also.Its not the cops fault its the stupid people on the jury.
Any Jack Ruby's out there? Ok, Ok, I'm not serious people.
Interesting fact: Jack Ruby tried the insanity defense.
The plea of insanity couldn't possibly apply to someone that initiated such a well-thought out plan over a period of months, for the destruction of innocent people. That evil man devised a plan requiring months of calculating, decisive detailing and intricate planning. He knew exactly what he was doing. With the purchase of his arsenol, he knew that he was going to kill innocent people. Shame on anyone that allows this monster to cop a plea of insanity!!!!
SharMur...you are incorrect. The legal definition of insanity could very well apply to someone such as that. And the clinical definition even more so.
What would be far worse than an insanity plea is if he can not be positively identified as the shooter by anyone present because of the outfit he was wearing. Then you have nothing except the stuff in his house which did not kill anyone.
If he does'nt get the death penality, you'll proberly see more of this type of stupity. This lil freak show needs to be put down to remind the other lil freak shows, there is punishment for MURDER.
I highly doubt that the death penalty would be a deterrent to anyone who would orchestrate a mass shooting. I believe most of them don't expect to make it out alive.
He has just been convicted of 12 counts of 1st degree murder, so maybe he will "FRY" for it!
He hasn't been convicted of anything.
He was charged with murder, not convicted. Hey may see trial in a couple of years. Waiting on a local case myself, going on 3 years.
I meant charged, Duh.
It was obvious that he was afraid someone in the theater might shoot him, hence the bullet resistant vest. Unless he had type III+ armor since that is what you would need to have any hope against a swat team.
The death penalty has not been shown to reduce the murder rate, and it certainly has not been shown to reduce the incidence of mental illness.
The death penalty definitely reduces the prevalence of mental illness. After the execution you have one less crazy murderer.
The death penalty is not about reducing murders, it's about retribution for the victim's families, plain and simple
I don't think Colorado has ever fried any convicted murderer. Histrocially they used gas, and now the needle. Sadly, there is a chance this cuckoo-bird will wind up in Pueblo.
Chuckzul. Its not about retribution. Do you know why a parent spanks their kids? Its to get their attention. The death penalty when carried out in a timely manner its used to get the attention of future murderers. The soul is dispatched back to God for his judgement.
Our criminal justice system is not based on retributive justice.
And my reply regarding the deterrent factor is to those posting regarding such.
@ Ted,
Your right, he was affraid someone would shoot him. Head shot would have fixed him. I doubt it very seriously if this guy was shot with say something like the 40 cal. he was using if his Ebay Protection would have stopped it. It proberly would have shattered and his lil Kry Baby @ss would have been running or hopping as fast as he could. He is one sorry example of a human being. My thoughts and prayers are for the survivors and the families. I hope for once in this country justice is swift, and fair. Nothing less than Death for this sorry POS. You know, I was thinking @ the midnite showing of this movie someone you think would have had a gun, cause it would have been about 3.00 a.m. when they was all leaving the movie. Someone did have a gun I'm sure, a law abiding citizen left it in the car.
He is not insane.
He is in his own world that eliminates any contact with the Real World.
At some point, we have to realize that there are people in this world that are "not of this world" (I'm not talking about aliens).
This man needs the death penalty. I am not an advocate of this sentence, but, now and then, it is the answer.
This is one of those occasions.
Your first and second sentences contradict each other.
I didn't know people in mental institutions were pampered. The guy in NC who killed several people as he stopped them on Old Salisbury Rd. in Winston-Salem in the 70's was put in a mental institution. He's been trying to get out for years. I think he finally suceeded with some kind of security people checking him to make sure he stays clean. I figured since he was trying to get out so many times it was a not-much-fun bad place to be.
Alleged Aurora shooter James Holmes to appear in court for charges. "ALLEGED" They catch this mother @!$%#er in the act and it's Alleged?
I know, sounds crazy, huh? But it's because our court systems *have* to presume innocence until guilt is proven, otherwise we'd have lynchings as the law of the land. And it's generally better for the prosecution if the media follows that rule, in order to avoid "tainting" the juror pool and forcing defense challenges, delays and venue changes. Just shrug it off. We know he did it, and he'll be found guilty eventually.
He will be found guilty, he is the PATSY, he is the one they chose to take the Fall.
Who is "they"??? Are you suggesting someone *else* did it? I'm pretty sure there are enough eye witnesses around to shoot down that theory (no pun intended).
The media ALWAYS has to say alleged until a person is formally charged by the court, regardless of the circumstances. The media is just covering their tails on this one. It's a formality and they are required to do it unless they want to one day be sued for defamation of character. I don't understand why so many of you are confused by this. They say this in every legal case prior to the court hearing. Yes, everyone knows he's guilty, but in the eyes of the court, he's innocent until formal charges are in place.
I don't think there's *really* that much confusion. More like disgust, I suspect. "Alleged, my a##!!" would be a quite normal response, I'd think.
They have to call him the "alleged shooter" because he has not yet been found guilty by a court of law. As much as you and I and everyone else knows that this guy did it, legally, the media is obligated to call him the "alleged shooter" until he has been determined legally guilty by a court of law through use of a trial.
I'm getting pissed about this 70 casualties number.. I found out they are counting people that got hit with casings as casualties. Anyone that has been hit with a casing knows it doesn't injure you at all minus a little heat and maybe a first degree1/4 inch burn that will heal in probably less than a day. They are calling being hit with a casing as being hit with shrapnel! WTF! Come on. Give us the truth. Why does the media and police always do crap like that? How many were actually shot please. I wouldn't be surprised if the real number is in the 20s..
I just did a search.. It appears that he only shot a ~ 24 people. Talk about over exaggeration by the police and media. It doesn't need to be exaggerated the truth is bad enough, why lie about it?
The media exaggerated??? OMG! Stop the presses! This just in! ;-)
They didnt catch him in the act. He was in or near his car, no gear on.
Ted: You and Kippy seem to understand what's not dished out to everyone in the regular media. There's a lot more to this, however it may never surface.
Its called the concept of being innocent until PROVEN GUILTY. Its a concept that youd be hanging onto if you were ever charged with a crime. This guy had orange hair like the shooter but was found standing outside the theatre. Why would anyone color their hair orange and stand outside hoping to get arrested? Too many things are fishy on this one. This guys eyes look just like Sirhan Sirhan's eyes just after being arrested. I smell the CIA in this one. With the small arms treaty being debated I woudnt put it past them.
This world has gone to the crapper. I for one believe that this, "Alleged Shooter" AKA "Waste of Human Flesh" flushed his "Rights" down the toilet when he walked into that theater. I don't care if he has a mental issue, get help! I for one do not agree with the fact that WE will have to pay to feed, cloth & house this, "Waste of Human Flesh", while he gets his "Day in Court", he belongs with Jeffrey Dahmer, Drew Peterson & John Wayne Gacy!
Hmmmm...he remembered where he parked. Does he remember dying his hair? If not, must have been a big surprise when he looked in the mirror. If he doesn't know why he is in jail, he will know today. Let's see if he can wrap his big brain around the thought of Life without parole...Ouch
People need to open there eyes and ears and see what is really happening here. This young man was obviously drugged. They are using the word "alleged" because he was used as a patsy just as Harvey Lee Oswald was and he admitted it! They do not want us the people to know the real truth. Isn't it a major coincidence that 2 weeks before our 2nd amendment was about to be voted against in order to disarm American people? Think about it. They already put tape over our mouths by taking away our FIRST amendment right which protects our right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. Luckily for us, a majority of Americans saw this and we got our guns back! Do not be fooled please! We need to stand together not as a "Nation" but as a COUNTRY because that is what we are. We need to stand up for or RIGHTS and protect our families and the future of our children. As far as not airing the trial on Holmes, of course they won't lol they do not want us to learn the REAL truth!
okay, crazy.
NUT JOB!
These nuts are always coming out of the woodwork. First of all, nobody is disarming the American people. Perhaps making it less convenient for anybody to legally purchase assault weapons would be a reasonable goal, but the gun nuts translate that into, "THEY'RE TAKING OUR GUNS!!!11." There is no excuse for having these weapons available for purchase to the general public. When the founding fathers included the 2nd amendment, they likely did not intend for this to include all future military-grade technology. At the time, they were using MUSKETS. Why should assault weapons be available to the general public with a 20 minute background check? We have a civilian military - the government isn't interested in going to war with their own people - you guys are absolutely insane.
I'm sick of the idiots saying things like, "Well if he didn't have guns he would have used something else." Maybe so - but that's impossible to predict. The fact remains that the bulk of the damage was done with an assault weapon he legally purchased from a local store. You morons that think having a theater full of armed individuals would have prevented the carnage are also insane - I almost guarantee if there had been people in there shooting back with their handguns at this guy in FULL BODY ARMOR, more people would have been killed/injured and not less. The second you pull out a gun, you become the primary target. Also, stray bullets could have hit innocent people as they were attempting to flee. Or, the people with guns could easily be mistaken for the shooter(s) in the midst of the mahem.
Seriously - there is no great government conspiracy here. Just a sick, psychotic crybaby who hated his life and was too weak to do anything about it so he put together this twisted plan. He also likely thought he was so smart that he'd get out of it somehow (at this point, an insanity plea is his only option which I hope is simply thrown out.) I'm typically not for death penalty, but in this situation this douchebag needs to fry.
I'm sick of all of the violence in this country and I'm not saying taking away guns is the solution (because obviously, it's not remotely realistic) but more strict laws are definitely required and I'm baffled daily at how many idiots fail to realize this. The government doesn't have the sneaky plan to go to war with us, and if they did, we'd be screwed anyway because they have resources and weapons that essentially render even assault weapons useless.
We live in one of the scariest civilized countries in the world and there is such a division on logic that it blows my mind. Take off the blinders and start thinking for yourselves - some of these concepts are pretty obvious.
Zombrex, it was Lee Harvey Oswald, and you are scary. I hope you don't have any deviant plans of your own in mind.
Anyone out there that knows and is close to this person known as "Zombrex": Please keep a close eye on this individual. This is a tradgedy waiting to happen.
wut uvver, zom.
Everybody is seeing though this BS too ...
sure are alot of Goverment trolls on here today !
drx, do you really think the founding fathers were that obtuse that they thought gun technology would never evolve past the musket? Since so many people argue that the second amendment is just for keeping an armed militia, maybe people here in the US should be able to arm themselves like other current militias. Switzerland uses an armed militia. Adult males are issued a SIG SG550 select fire assault rifle that they keep in their homes. It's a select fire rifle capable of shooting 700 rounds per minute in fully automatic mode.
And James Holmes did the bulk of his shooting with the shotgun and Glock handgun. Supposedly, the AR15 jammed on him. The vast majority of other mass shootings, Virginia Tech, Ft. Hood. , Columbine, the Jared Loughner shooting, etc., the shootings were carried out with one handgun. I don't care if they ban 100 round magazines or not, but if they do, it won't do a darn thing to stop these crazies.
And contrary to what you and others say, an armed citizen could have taken him out. It depends on a lot of factors, but there's a very good chance it could have been done, especially considering Holmes wasn't wearing body armor. They have already identified where he purchased his weapons, ammo and tactical gear. The tactical gear he bought was not bullet proof. Channel 9 in Colorado posted on their web site the sales receipt and things he purchased from tacticalgear.com and he didn't buy, nor do they sell bulletproof gear.
There's videos of the theater as people were evacuating. No one was choking from tear gas and people were surprisingly calm when leaving. Reports from people inside the theater said people were taking cover and crawling towards the emergency exits until he turned and started shooting at them. For whatever the reasons, the tear gas was ineffective, there wasn't a wild stampede of people, and the people in the theater had their eyesight adjusted for the dark. Witnesses also said they saw Holmes very clearly in the theater. Someone could have possibly taken him out if they were armed.
If the guy was being used as a patsy, let's say someone put him up to this, I seriously doubt it would be because someone wants to take your playthings away. I'm sure there would be something more sinister behind that than wanting to take your little pacifiers away from you. I'm amazed at how paranoid gun lovers are every time something likes this happens. No one ever takes your toys away and I'm pretty sure they never will. Take a deep breath.
Please take his picture off the internet. He is disgusting.
It is not often that people receive the insanity plea. By the time both defense and prosecution have their psychiatrist test these cons they throw it out. Recall the only one that comes to my mind is the one who shot President Reagan and James Brady. Please believe me when I say it is no picnic in psych ward. It is most generally within prison grounds with facilities the same as prison, food, privileges, and lockdown the same. Oh and regardless how he tried to portray themselves,they are not medicated as soon as they come through the door.
That was under federal law and it prompted a change in the law. Hinkley would not get off on the same defense today. Colorado law closely mirrors the federal law. And no it is not on prison grounds. It will be the High Security Forensic Institute here:
http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?c=Page&childpagename=CDHS-BehavioralHealth%2FCBONLayout&cid=1251580627423&pagename=CBONWrapper
He may end up there during pre-trial, if he is judged to be incompetent to procede (ITP) that is where he will end up, and if he is judged not guilty insane (NGI) that is where he will end up.
Hmmm, Pueblo..... That is where the state hospital is, and yes it is kind built like a prison... Or at least it was 30 years ago.
I still would rather see him in the death house in Canon City, but that is for the courts to decide, not me.
State of the art forensic unit opened about 3 years ago.
http://www.koaa.com/news/cmhip-opens-new-forensic-institute/
If obama had a son this would be him.
lol he pretty much is!
VIVIAN, are you insane??? No monsters like this cannot, should not, be reabilitated. He is a smart person, and he is lying and acting crazy!! he planned this masacre long before......so he had plenty of time to re-consider his actions....................maybe you would like him as your next door neighbor Miss im soooo forgiving!!
May God forgive you and help soon!
7.62x39mm, if Newsvine had an idiot, you would be it. Update: they do, and you are.
Obama's son!!! You may be on to something big here. He attacked a private secctor place of business and claims no accountability for what he did. Coincidence? Maybe not.
Can we leave Politics out of this please?????
He has just been Charged with 12 counts of 1st degree murder!
24 counts, read the article.
Why do you show his picture and mention his name? He is looking for celebrity. Take it away from him by not mentioning his name and showing his picture. Don't let him be a role model for the next sick killer. The death penalty is obviously the answer, just like for McVeigh. See, everybody remembers his name because of the non-stop publicity.
No I remember McVeigh for what he done. I couldn't tell you what he looked like.
Maybe I'm reaching here but the guy in court looks NOTHING like the picture they keep showing of him...even if u cut the hair. His eyes, mouth and ears are totally different. Maybe it's a different guy? Still the shooter but a different person than they think it is??
Just speculation here...
Think you need to go in for a screw tightening. No offense.
Dave- maybe he's an escapee from Area 51
His nose is different too. His eyes look the same though.