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University of the South
At a time when students and families are fed with up with rising college costs, University of the South in Sewanee, Tenn., cut tuition 10 percent last year and is promising to keep costs unchanged for entering freshmen for the next four years.
As an undergraduate at the University of California–Irvine, Christopher Campbell was almost forced to drop out by repeated double-digit increases in tuition — some in the middle of the academic year — to compensate for massive state budget cuts.
Campbell ultimately made it through and is starting law school at UCI this fall. But he watched classmates driven out of college by the unpredictable mid-year price hikes.
Now he’s pushing an amendment to the California constitution that would ban public universities from raising tuition for students after they’ve enrolled.
“Students and families are fed up,” Campbell says. “And that’s only going to get worse. As more and more students have to deal with these problems, it’s just going to keep building until the problem is fixed.”
After three decades of tuition hikes that have outpaced inflation and increases in family income, students, families, legislators and governing boards are demanding a halt.
“Enough is enough,” says Anne Mariucci, a member of the Arizona Board of Regents, which for the first time in 20 years has frozen in-state tuition at the University of Arizona and Arizona State University after increases over the last five years of 84 and 96 percent, respectively.
Some private universities, too, have agreed to stop raising their tuition, or even cut it, after being alarmed to discover their enrollments starting to slip.
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“The pushback is beginning,” says John McCardell Jr., president of the University of the South in Sewanee, Tenn., which last year cut tuition 10 percent and this year is promising to keep the cost unchanged for entering freshmen for four years.
Sewanee, as the university is known, was losing students to the University of Tennessee, the University of Georgia and other cheaper public institutions, McCardell says, and the size of the entering class was beginning to slide.
“Price probably has more than nothing to do with that,” he says. Students and their families “are voting with their feet.”
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Or with their votes. The Arizona regents were reportedly being pressed to get a handle on tuition by the governor and legislators. They, in turn, were hearing from increasingly angry constituents. “About time,” read the headline on an editorial in the ASU State Press, the student newspaper, when the tuition freeze was finally proposed. “As prices continue to go up, you have people saying, you can’t keep doing that,” says Rick Myers, chairman of the Arizona Board of Regents.
The 10-campus University of California system also froze undergraduate tuition for this fall after the governor and legislature there made doing so a condition of a $125 million budget increase — though there’s a hitch: Tuition will increase more than 20 percent in the middle of the year if voters fail to approve a tax increase in November to raise $8.5 billion for public education and other services, a quid pro quo that some critics say is blackmail.
Texas legislators have long pushed for a tuition freeze at that state’s public universities. When Gov. Rick Perry added his voice to the chorus this year, his appointees on the board of regents agreed — over university officials’ objections — to forgo a planned 5 percent increase over two years at the flagship University of Texas–Austin, where tuition now will be unchanged. Tuition also will be frozen at the Arlington campus. “It isn’t in the interest of most Texans for universities to be continually raising their tuition rates,” Perry was quoted as saying.
Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick also announced that he opposed a 5 percent tuition increase at University of Massachusetts campuses, though the system’s board of trustees imposed it anyway.
The only exception is the University of Massachusetts School of Law, which will hold tuition level. So will the law schools at the University of New Hampshire. Last year, the University of Maryland's Francis King Carey School of Law froze its tuition. Not coincidentally, the number of law-school applicants plummeted by more than 15 percent for the academic year that begins this fall — on top of declines of 10 percent in each of the previous two years — according to the Law School Admission Council. The number of students taking the Law School Admission Test this year suggests the trend will continue. Meanwhile, one third of law-school graduates in 2010 did not have jobs nine months later, and starting pay for those who did was down 13 percent. Phoebe Haddon, dean of the University of Maryland’s law school, cited “the impact of the economic downturn on the legal employment market” as one of her reasons for freezing tuition.
Equating price with prestige
Colleges and universities have long been reluctant to lower or cap their prices, McCardell says, because — as with new cars and fine wines — they believe students and their families equate price with prestige. That, he says, is why elite private colleges all magically end up within a few hundred dollars of one another each year.
In his 25 years as a higher-education administrator, “I was reared to believe that what you charge is a reflection of your position in the marketplace,” McCardell says. “And I was reared to believe that no matter what happens, the American people will pay the sticker price. But all that changed fundamentally in 2008,” at the start of the economic downturn.
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Supply and demand have not traditionally affected the price of higher education. That’s because supply largely remained unchanged, while demand was ever-rising. But the number of high-school graduates, which peaked in 2009, is starting to decline. Enrollment fell at more than 40 percent of colleges and universities last year, according to the credit-rating firm Moody’s. At least 375 institutions still had space available for this fall when the admissions period was over, the largest number in a decade, the National Association for College Admission Counseling reports. The percentage of accepted students who actually enroll is also falling. A recent analysis of public and private nonprofit colleges by Bain & Company found that one third were on an “unsustainable financial path.”
Colleges that are especially feeling the squeeze are those with small enrollments and endowments — and those are also the kinds of private colleges and universities that are maintaining their tuition levels to remain competitive.
Private Oklahoma City University, for instance, competes with more than 25 public institutions — most of them cheaper — in a state of fewer than four million. “Access to higher education is broad here,” says Susan Barber, provost at the university, which froze tuition this year. “We had discussions that we hoped this would help retention of students and in our recruitment efforts. It wasn’t completely an altruistic decision.”
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Other schools that have frozen their tuition this fall include Burlington College in Vermont, which has about 200 undergraduates; Ancilla College, a Catholic, two-year liberal-arts college in Indiana with about 530 students; the 730-student Tabor College, a Mennonite school in Kansas; liberal-arts Urbana University in Ohio, which has 1,270 students; Franklin Pierce University in New Hampshire, which has 1,300 undergraduates; and Pacific Union College, a Seventh-Day Adventist college in California with an enrollment of 1,530.
“The question is, how much can you charge for your product? And that is a reflection of the laws of supply and demand and your sense of your own position in the marketplace,” McCardell says. “Why are people shopping at Costco and Sam’s Club? That’s a terrible analogy, but I can get a really good box of cherries at Costco for a whole lot less than I can get them at the Piggly Wiggly.”
Slashing prices
This fall, a few private colleges and universities — trying to compete with cheaper public institutions — are offering Costco-style markdowns. In New Jersey, for instance, private Seton Hall is matching the price of public Rutgers University for freshmen with top grades and SAT scores. That comes to about a 60 percent discount. Cabrini College, near Philadelphia, cut its tuition 12.5 percent and promised not to raise it above $30,000 through at least 2015.
Lincoln College, a private two-year college in Illinois, lowered its tuition 24 percent and the University of Charleston in West Virginia 22 percent, both in response to declining enrollments. William Peace University, a women’s college with 700 students in North Carolina, slashed tuition nearly 8 percent to attract men as it becomes co-educational, and to increase its enrollment by 50 percent. And Duquesne University, in Pittsburgh, is responding to a big drop in applications to its school of education by giving 50 percent discounts to incoming freshmen.
If students and their families are straying from expensive institutions, a few schools that are freezing or reducing what they charge seem to be winning them back. At Sewanee, applications have risen 17 percent, and the number of entering freshmen is up more than 12 percent. Oklahoma City University has 30 more freshmen enrolled this fall than last, and the number of students dropping out is down.
Back in California, Christopher Campbell is juggling law school and his referendum campaign to keep tuition flat for students who enroll at the state’s public universities.
“Whoever I tell,” he says, “is always, ‘Yeah, hey, let’s put this through.’ ”
This story, "Colleges freeze, reduce tuition as public balks at further price hikes," was produced by The Hechinger Report, a nonprofit, nonpartisan education-news outlet based at Teachers College, Columbia University.
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Leave a Comment:
It's about time! This pushback should have started at least a decade ago. In my opinion they should keep the focus on education and the prices will come down. People can play sports, socialize, etc. on their own.
As always, money talks. Got to start losing students before anything happens.
Couldn't agree more. When I was touring campuses a couple years ago, most of them looked like vacation resorts rather than college campuses. I don't want to pay for the "college experience". I want an education.
Well the argument always is that the sports programs are self-sustaining through sponsorship, ticket sales, etc. Never been entirely convinced myself, there must be indirect costs associated with the big sports programs at least, such as various infrastructure costs.
But really, time to stop spending money on aircraft carriers and spend it on better public education.
I certainly can't speak for privet universities, but public universities are "cheaper" because they get a large chunk of their money from the State they reside in. When the state budget gets cut due to the current failed economy, the university has to make up the lost money somehow. So they always turn to the students to make up that loss in funding.
With that said, public universities spend money like it isn't their money all the time. Be in the $500 per chair in classrooms, or paying a premium for everything they buy to give the impression that they are eco-friendly. It particularly hurts when you see a school spending 20K on an item that can be had for $500 instead.
The colleges and the university's have an agenda on this, they know that there hundreds of thousands of foreign students that will pay full tuition and without the problem and paper work of grants and loans to deal with, by raising the tuition they can eliminate many America students from qualifing. I am surprised that students and parents in America have not caught on to this.
Colleges wouldn't cost so much if the government didn't throw ridiculous amounts of money at anyone who wants to go. When anyone can find the means to pay for tuition no matter what the amount, price is not something that is quantified, it just becomes a number you ask for when applying for loans and financial aid.
Government either needs to say "No, this is how much you get to charge" or stop paying altogether dropping people's thus dropping demand thus forcing a lower price. These schools are more concerned about making money and keeping paying students enrolled than they are educating and holding people to higher standards of education. That is what made the 4-year degree the equivalent to a HS degree was a few decades ago.
For the past several years Peter Schiff said government guarantee student loan is pushing college cost upward just as Fannie/Freddie pushed home prices to up unsustainable levels. Just as he has advocated a free housing market free of government guarantee mortgage as the solution to reducing the price of homes, he has been advocating the same solution to the high cost of the college tuition.
The culprit behind skyhigh tuition in the midst of the Great Recession is the liberal government granting of guarantee student loan in the market place. When there's a cheap and easy source of money for tuition, colleges will charge as much as they can.
As more students graduate with a worthless degree in a stagnant economy, more students will default on their $150,000 plus loan. As more young people take jobs and citizenship in other nations in pursuit of opportunity and a better future free of debt and high taxes, the American taxpayers will be saddled with the bills.
Peter Schiff is right, again!
Do a little research about why tuitions increased and you will see Goldman Sachs name appear.
I have a daughter attending her 2nd year this month with a 3.925 gpa and I thank the heavens above that she is on a scholarship as I never could have paid, over 50k a year. Hell I never made 50k a year in 42 years of working.
Education is a business, profit is a prime motive. College sports teams drive the institutions (Penn State).
Ask yourself, if CEOS are stealing away the riches from the workers, why on earth would not the educational elite try to do the same thing?
In America it is all about money, everything else is poorly-regulated greed!
The rise in cost hasn't just outpaced inflation, for all that's been said and written about the rise in medical costs, the rise in cost of higher education has left medical cost inflation in the dust.
What I don't get is the Obama administration saying this is a national security issue yet not demanding his buddy professors work at 60 cents on the dollar if universities take government money like he demands from physicians who take Medicare.
My wife is a tenured full professor at a tier one state university. And I can assure you that this is very much on the mind of faculty. There are things that can be done immdiately:
1) Shut down all college and university contributions to sports. Period. If a program can be self-supporting, let it incorporate as a separate insitution that only receives money from outside the university. It would be possible for alumni to create endowments to support athletics, but that should be outside of the university's firewall as well.
2) Immediately pass a law to the effect that no member of the athletic department can make more than the university president. In face their pay would be capped at 90% of what the university president makes. And that all pay for athletic department employes in the form of a state payroll check.. No more zero percent home mortgages. UA gave Saban three mortgages.
3) Universities should be forbidden to float bond issues to fund athletics. Ditto for fraternity and sorotity buildings that are built by the university and then leased to the frat for a dollar a year.
4) Stop all the pretense that major athletic programs are anything except semi-professional.
5) Stop all kickback schemes by companies such as Chik-Fil-A, Apple, sports, etc. These always end up costing the students more in the form of tuition.
Athletics are not only a huge reason behind the tuition increases but are extremely fixable. My wife's university spends $15-15 million a year on student athletics all the will saying (incorrectly) that the football program is "self-supporting." The reason is that in order to give the maximum number of football scholarships, there must be a full Title IX athletic program including even sports such as cheerleading, women's softball, etc. It simply is not right to increase tuition to build a new football stadium, basketball arena, or other sports buildings.
And this filters down even to high schools. Here the city's last nine "teachers of the year" have been laid off due to budget cuts. But this year, not only did they lay off last year's teacher of the year, they were still able to put in the "education" budget 26 pairs of sticky gloves for receivers at a little over $400 a pop. Schools are about building skills in students and they should distance themselves from all fraternities and sororities and semi-pro athletics.
There's something to what Peter Schiff says (see above). And there's nothing to what he says. That is, make the schools free, paid for from taxes, because they are necessary to the welfare of this country and its people. Allow those to attend who qualify. And you'll end up with about the same quality of education that you would under Peter Schiff's idea, and with a lot more qualified people attending (not just those who can afford, who may not be the smartest and brightest, just lucky to be born into rich families).
Actually Richard, as for public universities, your assumptions are wrong. Most public universities don't get a 'chunk' of their money from the state they reside in - the university in my area only gets 17%of it's funding from the state. And you are also wrong in saying that they spend $500 for a chair or that they 'school spending 20K on an item that can be had for $500 instead." State universities are audited on a regular basis so there isn't any 'sneaky' stuff going on. I might also add that many professors could make much more working in the private sector as could most of the support staff.
At some point we need to value education rather than complain about it constantly. While the rest of the world seems to be looking for ways to increase the number of those obtaining college degrees - we look for ways to make working in education (at all levels) so undervalued it's hardly worth the five-seven year commitment it takes to get the teaching degree/certificate.
While the United States was once at the top of the chain for education we are quickly being passed by up and coming nations that see the value in a good education.
It's a sad state of affairs and not one the founding fathers would be proud of.
Prices will drop more. Online courses are the way of the future. If you look at open courseware, some of the best professors in the country give video lectures freely available. From a business standpoint, why should a university pay a professor $100,000K per year to teach 100 kids in a traditional classroom when the university can video the lectures, and charge 100,000 kids (or more, since the internet is global) a few hundred dollars/student--without having to build or maintain a physical campus? Both the university and the best professors stand to make much more money, and the students are charged far less per course. The only ones who lose out are other professors whose online courses wouldn't be sought, as they will be replaced by the video of another, better professor. It is the business model of the future university.
"As Public Balks" is a gross understatement, more accurately IMHO it should be: "As Public Says '@!$%# You' To Unwarranted/Undeserved Tuition Hikes".
I'll be the first to agree that higher education is to be valued on many levels but the only institution that is similarly over charging/over valuing the services actually provided as much as the health care insurance industry is our educational institutions!!
Steven1
Really Steven1....what in the world makes you think that YOU'RE entitled to a 'free' college education!
There are scholorships (oops, you didn't study hard enough)
....and assistantships (oops, you aren't diligent enough to get one)
...OR you could pay your way with almost NO interest loans that are even tax deductable (oops, you don't want to pay your way).
Oh ya, lastly, maybe if you SERVED ON ONE OF THE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS then you can get college tuition back for your service to our Nation (oops, you don't want to work either). PATHETIC
Here in Oregon U of O had automatic enrollment for students who graduated high school with a 3.6, but they have since done away with that. Now they fill there out of state roster before even considering an in state student due to the fact that out of state students are charged three times as much! I don't think that they should be state funded with that shell game...
Do you realy think Penn State will have a problem with the $60,000,000.00 fine it was given?
Just a drop in the bucket. We have 2 teachers at our high school who can't stop talking about how great
Penn state is, happen to be the 2 worst teacher's in the school.
justone: your statement above shows a lack of information about the current mess in terms of college finances. I went to college completely for free on a National Merit Scholarship and actually got paid to go to grad school, but those days are gone forever. Almost no scholarships cover 100% of costs any more. Loans are such that a student enters into an adult lifetime of debt and thus has severely limited career/lifestyle choices forever. The military idea you suggest doesn't work. I know a student with terrific grades who served three tours in Iraq/Afghanistan with the Marines and came home to go to college on the "New GI Bill" and found he had to re-enlist (this time in the Army) because his Marine benefits wouldn't pay for him to go to college full-time without working.
What makes Steven feel he's entitled to a free education? Hmmm. Maybe the model for public school k-12 leads people to think that education is a public good that should be funded by the public? Just sayin.
WallStFatCat...I'm not a conservative, but I have to say I agree with a lot that Peter Schiff says about U.S. education. More and more people will, indeed, go overseas to find their fortune.
I happen to agree with Stephen1, and guess that justoneguy doesn't equal two. It's time for this country to take a different approach than what it has for too long now. Our economy depends on citizens educated and doing well after that education. Money spent on education is not wasted money. It helps the whole country and not just the corporations and politicians.
dslsca
Not true dsl.... the very same folks that think 30K or even 50K for a college education are driving cars worth that much. Check the parking at your local college. My daughter is going to Reed College (look it up) for FOUR years ......practically free because she was studious and serious about her education. I went through undergrad school for almost nothing after exchanging 4 years in the Marine Corps. It takes committment, not a free ride. College was NEVER meant to be a money making deal when one graduates. It is for those that are PASSIONATE about what they love. Good try.
Let's face it, until the Regents (who are typically government appointees so nobody has any direct influence over them) start doing more then rubber-stamping everything it's not going to change. Many students are simply paying for a piece of paper, not really an education, especially at some of these private universities. The value has decreased while the cost has increased.
And if they cap tuition rates then you will just see an increase in University "fees" such as the $50 per credit hour library fee, $40 per credit hour student activity fee, etc.. At some Universities the fees are higher then tuition!
I don't need to look up Reed College thanks. I was a college professor and Dean for 29 years before I retired, so I kinda know something about colleges.
I'm on your side absolutely about college being for those who (that is not an acceptable relative pronoun for a person or for people) passionate. That's why I think corporations ought to pay for their workers' training rather than have the workers pay to train themselves.
So in order for the Colleges to do the right thing, young adults have to stop seeking higher education?
See, this is what is wrong with our society. For something good to happen, something equally terrible needs to take place to facilitate that change. We have hedged our society on pitfall.
We need an altogether new system....... now.
Futureshock2012...I know exactly what you're saying! I decided to go back and pick up another degree (in Accounting) at the local university. My full-time tuition is $3,990, but the various fees amount to $1,000! There is the university fee, the activity fee, the undergraduate fee, the health fee, the business major fee, etc.
dslsca
Good Grief.....
The thing is that in Arizona it is not so much Arizona State's or the University of Arizona's fault that they have had to raise tuition so much. The Republican dominated state government has slashed the hell out of state funding for the universities and for education in general. So the universities have been forced to raise tuition to compensate for the budget shortfalls, much to the chagrin of students.
Sad that Texas has to go back to where they were to figure this. Tuition used to be capped here in the great State, but someone in our Congress decided that it needed to be at the discretion of the universities and it skyrocketed out of control.
justone: and your response to the argument I made is what exactly?
It is a sad day at school when an above average sports ability will give you a better scholarship then an above average marks on a report card will.
dsl....though I'm running out of time the response was one that comes about when a person (you) attempts to put themselves over the argument by implying that they are somehow more 'intelligent' than the other by pointing out things within a sentence that has nothing to do with the point. That aside, having read your other comments - you seem fair and balanced.
POINT: MANY people put their bread on the tables and successfully raise children simply running a good quality car repair service - or even working as garbage/recycling services. If you think college isn't worth the money THEN IT'S NOT!
We're all running out of time, bubba - NitMitt more so than most anyone else, though...
One way to ensure the cost of college came down is to make Student Loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. Right now, there is no risk to the college and no risk to the banks. If they had to be more discerning in who they loaned money to, then they couldn't charge exorbitant rates to keep up attendance.
Right now, they can soak 18-22 year olds with tens of thousands in debt knowing the kid can't ever get out from under it. Even the basic tuition bill is not dischargeable. I'm going to be paying on my student debt until I retire. End of story.
If students can't get loans, colleges would be forced to bring rates down or not have the attendance. This would be trouble for poor and minority students in the short run, but in the long run it would bring things down to a level where everyone can afford to go.
thirdway wrote "This pushback should have started at least a decade ago."
Two decades ago. Parents were busy taking loans and boasting about the price of their children's college education without knowing that there is little value.
The problem isn't liberals WallSt. It's people who hoard money and not pay their employees properly. Minimum wage should be AT LEAST $11 by now, but it isn't. That extra $3.5 an hour can really help a student. But hey, let keep allowing CEOs to lobby to keep poor people poor, and their children can go to great schools, barely pass, and screw up an entire company, while making their 8 digit bonuses.
If you don't live at home while attending college, then room & board costs are much higher than tuition.
For instance the local state school's room & board costs (combined) are slightly more than twice the tuition cost for the upcoming year. To cut costs you could live at home and commute to a local college.
Chris-749391, hate to bust your bubbles but most big time state D1 athletic programs return more money to their schools than does the state legislature. My son just visited North Dakota and theirs returns $15,000,000 to the school, others return many, many times that. Athletics can be HUGE money makers for their schools. Your friend may be whining about something that is paying her salary.
There are a lot of very good schools out there that can be had for a fraction of the numbers bandied about in this article. You just have to look for them with an open mind.
Hmmmm. I taught college and was finally a Dean before my retirement. I taught four classes every semester. Worked 10 months a year (and by state law didn't get paid during the two months I didn't work). I had ONE three month sabbatical in the entire time. Over my career, I saw more than a dozen colleagues with tenure fired for cause.
The Party is OVER. Elasticity rules! Too many kids go to college anyway, and WAY more than need to go to law school. They risk making lawyers being no more important than say a nurse. Important, needed, but after 7 years of college?!! And nurses can find jobs! Lawyers cannot. The Ivory tower types are in for one hell of a lesson in economics. And any parent that even pays for a journalism, sociology, speech, feel good degree is nuts! Students paying for them are even dumber! And, when Uncle Obama is gone from office, all these stupid loan forgiveness plans are going to get a hard look. Even he will stop giving money away when he does not need to buy more votes with taxpayer money!
College got too expensive for the middle class to afford.
There was the democrat solution of addressing those costs and making it more affordable,
and the republican solution of throwing LOANS at the problem driving up costs and enriching a few thousand people at the cost of millions of students in debt for life, often unpayable sums which can't even be wiped out because of republican gutting of bankruptcy protection.
End result, a trillion dollars and growing daily of debt that cannot be repayed. Until jobs and wages explode the way costs have this money will never get paid off.
Thats the beauty of capitalism... Good athletes are 1 in a million but there are tens of thousands of doctors, accountants, engineers, or teachers, so they deserve nothing, regardless of their grades.
There was an article in the local paper about a year ago that broke down the cost and return on each sport (both mens and womens) at the state university. All but 2 of them were losing money. Mens hockey and believe it or not Mens diving (I couldn't tell you why that is.) The worst one was the Womens Hockey. It cost as much as the mens hockey program to run but returned almost nothing in return. It lost more money on that program then all the loses of all the other sports combined. When it came time to decide which programs to cut, Women's hockey wasn't even an option due to the chance of a discrimination suit. That's liberal thinking. Equal share for everyone even if it's not deserved. How is that ever fiscally responsible. Everybody pays more to cover that loss because everybody is afraid to say it like it is and drop a losing program. The problem is that when money is given to someone that can't pay it back, everybody (eventually) loses.
How to afford college.
Most students that go to a prestigious college waste an incredible amount of money for their first two years, during which time the vast majority of the dropouts occur - typically because they are just not very mature. They end up without a degree and lots of student debt.
Here's a common sense alternative - spend the first two years attending a local community college and live with your parents, and then transfer to the 'prestigious' college for your last two years. Not only will you still get that degree from that 'prestigious' college, but you will save a ton of money, and you will have the maturity to make wise decisions about your future.
College can be affordable if you use your brain.
Education has become an Industry...Big Business with no accountability or controls over how they operate. And we, as concerned parents, deal with this BS to provide our children an advanced education. Well, that's what the Education Industry would want you to believe.
RoyW: I think there is some wisdom in what you say for some students. I'd hesitate, however, in that the quality of education at many two year schools just isn't what a student could get at a four year school: higher standards for faculty obtain at four year schools; higher standards for admission for studetns obtain (and thus class discussion, group projects, etc. are better); and getting "away from home" can be an important step in growing up.
dslsca had this to say:
Okay, then tell the truth--you worked at a community college or a small college (I'll note you did not say "university"). You know as well as I (and I've taught for almost 30 years now) that university professors do not teach 4 classes a term because they are supposed to spend 50-70% of their time in "research" and devoting time to "university volunteer" work. At a university, one teaches about 2 classes per term and one gets the entire summer off.
It is true that there is a great variety in what college professors do--but let's remember that 70% of college and university teaching faculty is made up of part-timers who do not make enough money to qualify as members of the middle class: http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/
Some "college" professors work at small liberal arts colleges and community colleges and make between $30K and $40K per year. Many of these facilities are what we call "teaching" colleges, where professors are expected mostly to teach (not research) and thus aren't regarded highly or paid highly. What most people here are discussing are the large public universities where the professors whine about "only" making $60-90K per year when they are "starting out" and how this is "far below industry standard." Such professors do very little teaching, spend most of their time in useless committee meetings and doing unnecessary "research," and are paid to do such "research" which results in books that are then assigned as required reading by instructors at other universities--and those professors get to keep all their profits though they were paid to do the research.
There are exceptions--the professors who do meterological studies or engineering studies or biomedical studies often produce materials that genuinely are useful. However, it is my opinion that such people should be in "research" institutions that are associated with universities, and which the students can go work at in an intern capacity (being paid to do so) as part of their studies (and that they are required to so intern). But, this sort of internship would be ridiculous in many fields, such as English, and should not be required.
Teaching faculty should not principally be part-time, temporary. Full time instructors should be hired and paid a fair wage with benefits--at least equivalent to what public school teachers get in the same state. The number of adjuncts should not be 70% of the teaching faculty but perhaps 10%, and anyone who lasts more than two or three years should move up when an opening presents itself, by virtue of seniority.
The main problems at universities is that the faculty and administrators do not think that their job is to do career training--they sneer at that. Their job (go ask them) is to "produce globally-aware citizens." Thus, they have this kind of program on multicultural awareness, and that program on making the students feel like they are members of the intellectual community, and another program on bringing in major scholars to give lectures and open up the minds of students and . . . . I hope you get my drift.
Universities are spending way too much of their students' money (universities typically get less than 20% of their operating budget from the state any more) on administrators and on "research" faculty in order to "increase their rankings"--hey, buddy? Nobody cares about the freaking "rankings." Rankings are idiotic. People do not care about the "university experience." They do not care about becoming "globally aware citizens." They do not care about the "research" that the English faculty does. They care about getting training to get jobs, about having teachers who are invested in the students' success, and about getting a solid education.
Public, land-grant colleges and universities have lost their mission. Their mission was to educate the populace in the given state so that they could assume positions of responsibility in that state. Their mission was to teach well. What they have become is money-making machines that employ way too many administrators and "full-time" tenured faculty (who actually teach part-time and spend the rest of their time in "self-governance" and "research") at ridiculous salaries (one middle management administration job that I saw recently had a posted salary range of $150K-$225K, "depending on qualificiations").
It is my opinion that public universities should be given two choices--Go back to the mission of educating students from the given state (they actually rig things to prefer students from out of state and internationally because they make 2-3 times more money from such students), cut radically back on the non-essential services and cut radically back on salary, forcing the instructors who are doing useless research to take on 10 classes per year or leave (and to cut tenure, but allow unions). Or, go self-supporting and pay the state for the privilege of using public property for their revenue-generation. The state could then plow that money into grants for students from the state (that is, give the money to the individual student rather than to the institution--as the student can be required to take a certain number of classes and maintain a certain GPA, but there's bloody little accountability from institutions these days).
And, yes, all sports programs should be disassociated from the university budget and should have to be self-sustaining. If the alumni want to support it, that's cool. The players should not have to go to classes if they don't want to--they are semi-pro.
Oh, and it's really not a good idea to correct people's grammar when your own proofreading isn't terribly good. Admittedly, I did not proofread my message above--and I'm quite sure I made several mistakes. But, if I were correcting someone else's grammar, I'd be a little more cautious. You said this:
This should actually read something more like this:
Or, if you'd rather:
Have a great day, professor--and you might try being the tiniest bit less pedantic and might qualify your own anecdotal and atypical personal experiences just a tad more so that you are making them relevant to our discussion.
College is a way to get into a huge debt. That may not even ever pay off in ones lifetime now. Take the idea of graduating students entering a workforce. Where they all are competing for the same jobs. An entry level job for a college student today. Does not pay enough to eliminate the debt incurred by the student.
The sad part is most of our youth has been educated in a cookie cutter system. Since early childhood. We teach our citizens one thing. One way of thinking. And it is Go to school, get a college degree, get a good job, work hard and retire. The sad part is not every kid should be a lawyer or doctor or engineer. Not every kid is fit for it. Meaning they may have a different personality that would be a better fit for a mechanic, artist, or fill in the blank.
We place college degree's to high on a scale for employment. And kids enter college most of the time. Not even knowing what they actually want to do or become. Then they leave college with huge debts. And really cant cut it in the real world. The best advice is to help our kids figure it out from the beginning what they are born to do. And to let them grow into their natural talents.
Even if it means not going to college. Many very wealthy and happy people never even got past High school let alone College. it is far better to do what you love. And love what you do. Than to enter the rat race chasing a Brass ring. When doing what you love could get you a gold one. And if it never gets that Gold ring. At least you lived doing something that made an impact for something you are passionate about.
While much of what you say has merit, for most students they don't really know what the 'college experience' will be like, and they are relatively immature - often not even knowing what kind of a career they want. Those first two years are full of turmoil, and the huge cost can be a crushing burden after they graduate.
And while the 'faculty standards' at many prestigious colleges is high, in many cases the actual classes are primarily taught by assistants and in such huge class sizes that there is little chance of interaction with the professors. I am a graduate of both a community college and a highly regarded University (Bachelors and Masters degrees), and I found the quality of education at the community college level to be very good, and the opportunity to interact with the professors very valuable.
I'm only suggesting a logical alternative to what I see as a waste of tremendous financial resources during those first two years when students are relatively immature and uncertain about their future.
Dear Prolix Bena: I taught at three schools, all state universities. One with an enrollment of 27,000; one with an enrollment of about 3,000; and one with an enrollment of 10,500. I was a tenured full professor at the final two. I taught the same load at all three. I wholly agree that committee time is useless and wasteful. I wholly agree that having so much university level teaching done by cheap, casual labor is bad for education. I published 24 juried articles in scholarly journals over my career; I doubt anyone other than grad students needing to pad bibliographies will ever read them, but it was mostly enjoyable and it did on occasion enhance my classroom work. I thought I made it clear that I was writing about my own experiences; I didn't claim that someone else had done the things I described.
I actually agree with Roy Wilson here. Students should look to cheaper public colleges first. I also found that the education is more structured and is actually better than what you receive at a more prestigious university. Many of the professors who actually like to teach at Universities also teach at some of these colleges as well.
Also, the University of Texas purchased $1 billion worth of Gold last year...so they aren't hurting.
We should also look at streamlining our education. Lets face it, most degrees could cut a year of courses out.
Not everybody can live at home forever or has no job to try to fit schedules around. Public colleges are generally extremely overcrowded and have horrible graduation rates, the education is often decent but not great. There are many valid reasons people are not choosing these schools, and costs can still be unaffordable even at these schools.
@ chris-749391 #1.11
And do away with tenure, hire quality instructors and professors that speak the English language, incorporate student and faculty based assessments to eliminate non performing instructors and professors, set salary and work ethic standards based on local salary and work ethic equivalents, do away with state based pension systems, etc.
But I am sure you meant to include the over paid faculty in your assessment of High tuition rates.
And just so you know, I agree with the rest of your assessment.
But I will say the football program is probably "self sustaining", but because the PC police jumped onto the pile, and said that's not fair, you gotta give money to the girls. So, eliminate the girls sports and football might make it on its own. Not that I really care that much about football and even less about basketball the point was, the unintended consequence of make one party pay for the other party based on some ideal of equality, rather than letting it survive on its own merit.
beanathome
- woo hoo...you go!!! :)
@DumbFarmBoy
If we did that we'd lose ALOT of math professors. Anyone taking (or who has taken) advanced math knows what I'm talking about. Just saying.
Seems the unis are realizing that the masses are getting fed up with being taken advantage of with the continuous increase in cost for the same unchanging product thus have been withholding their presence by going elsewhere or not attending at all..
My blood hath been too cold and temperate,
Unapt to stir at these indignities,
And you have found me; for accordingly
You tread upon my patience. But be sure
I will from henceforth rather be myself,
Mighty and to be fear'd, than my condition,
Which hath been smooth as oil, as soft as young down,
And therefore lost that title of respect
Which the proud soul ne'er pays but to the proud....
Henry the 4th Part 1
Wonder when the T'republiconserdinos will realize that the public have had enough too...
Penn State University is about to pay out in fines and law suits over 100 million dollars and they are going to stay afloat. College football coaches readily sign big contract at over 4 million a year. Its time we subsidize those who are good enough to get into college who want to continue to learn. Education is the backbone of any country and using it as a cash cow so some people can reap huge salaries is just plain wrong. Now days everything people need is overpriced. Health care food transportation housing and education are a must for all of us and should be affordable. You should not have to come out of college in debt up to your neck with a future payout that is mind blowing so some can wallow in money. Food prices Housing transportation and education are all so far out of line its unreal and all because those that run those things get paid enormous amounts to do what all most anyone could. My school got 3 scholarships when I graduated all sports. As academics went I was Number 1 in that school and had to work to go to college. So now days its sports not academics that push scholarship's...
The greatest thing about this entire article is that it isn't even a relevant conversation if you can't get a job when you graduate. What's the difference in owing $50,000 or $150,000 if there isn't a way to pay it back? The life time advantage of a college degree is beginning to shrink in size, and some day it is going to be non-existent. That will truly be a sad day.
And you can lay a good part of the blame at the feet of employers who 'require' 4 year degrees for BS positions.
We sure have spent a lot of time and money teaching all these kids to push a damned pencil.....
I hope we can stop the under education of all students. State's need more money to help
educate our people. The rest of the world is passing us by.
If they Don't get an education, they won't find a job. That's a Fact of life.
Pick your major wisely. You may love Philosophy, but no one else gives a damn about it. Try engineering or computer science if you want a job.
Indeed, I think a few important things need to be done simultaneously:
Thoughts? Additional items?
If you pursue a STEM degree then you will have a job but if you pursue communications, art history, religious studies, hospitality management, etc. then you are likely to graduate to a minimum wage job with TONS of debt. I am NOT saying that these degrees are worthless but it is hard to find a job in these fields. When i was in engineering school many students pursued these degrees because they were easy and did not require much effort thus allowing them to spend more time on partying and smoking stuff. I enjoyed these things as well but realized that it was MY responsibility to BALANCE them in order to get what I wanted out of university.
Tuition rates for non-private schools have been skyrocketing because state and federal money has been diverted from them to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy, weapons programs that have NO use in urban warfare (aka Iraq) and to subsidize the fossil fuel industry.
Thomas Jefferson said "No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people." Here is a link to what one of our most influential FOUNDING FATHERS said about education and its importance for the republic. http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-education
Education is and never should be a thing only for the wealthy and therefore should NOT be the first government program to be cut in order to help preserve the wealth of the few (1% or corporations).
How did American education get ruined ? Many ways. Degradation of the family. Kid can't do homeowrk if there is fightin in the house, if no Dad. Loss of control in the school on discipline. When your rat kid screws up and a teachers grabs 'em the teacher get suued - no help from HQ. Dumbing down the curricula. Unfunded mandates from higher jurisdictions. Personnel costs accelerating faster than in society in general - particulary at Universities. Condoms and social issues took preference over the 3R's. Courts allowing lawsuits that decmated order and discip[line in schools. Perverts hired to be teachers - lot of teacher student sex stories in the last few years. and of course destroying the manufacturing industry so the only jobs left in America are low paid food service, hotel, delivery driver or high paid/high skilled professional requiring a degree or two. Turning colleges into trade schools instead of keeping the elevated and rounded curricula which turns out grads who can do many difficult tasks. Grads now know one thing and when that path closes they are stumped for what to do next.
Double agree pick your major wisely. A friend of mine couldn't decide to go into music or medicine. His teacher said be a doctor by day and play music at night. I know a philosophy major and about all he gets to do with it is substitute teach sometimes. I know it sounds romantic to "pursue your dreams" but don't keep your head so far in the clouds that your feet leave the ground. Many years ago I read a letter in response to one written by a studio musician. The musician ended his article by saying he was sure "You would find a job and be rewarded with years of working". The letter in response pretty much called bullsh!t....that is an incredibly hard area to break into and don't give the impression otherwise. Learn a job/trade you can sell. Learn a hobby in your off time.
it was my experience that if you pursue CO-EDS you don't get a degree, but the smiles will last a lifetime..............:)
Even in engineering or computer science you aren't guaranteed a job, because they all want 10-15 years of experience straight out of school. So rather than hire new graduates, they bring foreigners over for those jobs.
Seriously? No...Really?!...those are some great ideas you have. Too bad there are people out there with a vested interest in going against the best interests of students. I've thought the same as you, but you have stated these ideas brilliantly.
You are right about the dead weight tenured professors. I remember from my time at William & Mary there was one professor there (James Axtell) that was a big shot like you described. He did a lot outside of school (was head of Jamestown foundation, head of Columbus Quin-centennial panel, etc), but he was a lousy, arrogant teacher. All he ever did in class was boast about his beginnings in a posh, upstate New York community, how he beat Harold Abrams track record at Cambridge, how he made over $100,000/yr as a mere History professor, etc, etc. He was idolized by every History professor I've ever known...at several different universities.
RobertDuck:
The underlying assumption behind your statement (i.e., that the only possible reason to go to college would be to train for a career) saddens me. I think corporations should pay for the training of their own workers; it's awful that students and their families feel they have to go into an adult lifetime's worth of debt just to be qualified to contribute to a corporation's profits. As Slavoj Zizek puts it, "the chance to be exploited in a long-term job is now experienced as a privilege."
dslsca...America largely prepares the masses to be exploited by the ruling classes (social elites often not by merit, but by inheritance). Our society imparts its view on people that to work hard is happiness.
However, I have to agree with RobertDuck, if you aren't independently wealthy and decide to go to school...pick your major wisely, because you will need to use that to get work. If you are dirt poor.... getting a degree in something no one will pay you for is crazy. Plus, most of these art, philosophy type degrees you would be better off just going to the library, educating yourself, and foregoing the expensive degree. I think Ray Bradbury (who never went to college) said it best, "I warn against writers getting a college education....because it ruins their imagination."
dslsca, I agree in principle 100% with you. It's just a friend of mine has his degree in art. He manages an art supply store. His actual art degree doesn't pay the bills. My girlfriend has her degree in music. She teaches on the side and is a DBA where she works. Her music degree hasn't done squat for her. High schools are cutting liberal arts classes because of their budgets. Arts, acting, these things are deemed unnecessary to a "real" education. It's sad. You used to hear follow your dreams, but now, if you have to feed a family, you can't really be the "starving artist". If your alone, sure. But don't make your family pay that price.
Agreed agreed agreed!
The part that disgusts me is that the university that trained your friend in Philosophy probably charged him an arm and a leg for the privilege! WTF?! How do they justify such a charge except that they can.
I'm fine with universities charging an arm and a leg, but there has to be a solid market to back it up. There is no market-justification for such a major in bachelor's-form
Hence why I think that colleges should be barred from allowing people to graduate in a bachelors of uselessness, particularly if the masters or the PhD do actually have marketability! Like teaching the subject for example (like history, music, art, philosophy, communications, political science, etc.).
Simply allowing universities to churn out baccalaureate after baccalaureate in majors that don't feed into a career is idiotic and results in nothing more than the university pocketing ridiculous sums of cash from state and personal funds whilst they pay a pittance to the professors that teach it, as those people haven't the leverage to demand more like a successful science, law, math, or business professor can (as they can all take their PhD and turn it into a business outside of academia).
RobertD: but what about the price your family pays for having to live in their most intimate environment (home/family) with people who think that absolutely everything else in life must be secondary to conducting yourself so that someone else will wish to profit from your activities?
"The question is, how much can you charge for your product"
That should never be the question at a tax exempt institution. Whatever college/university this man currently administers should have its tax exempt status removed immediately. With the institution not paying taxes on any of its land and on none of its income, the question should be, "How little can we charge and still deliver a quality education."
dslsca, I am a printer by day and a musician at night. Do you know how hard it is to break into the music business? If you get sick you don't get paid. My printing job has medical benefits and paid vacation time. I've known a few "professional" musicians. They will play absolutley ANY gig they can because if they don't....there's no money in their wallet. One guy plays on the street corner for tips. Essentially, they are self employed. I think having a trade, like a harmonica player I know...he works as a plumber by day. He has a wife and two kids. He has a regular bi weekly gig and some other shows when he can get them booked that may pay $100.00 to $150.00 a man for his band. Gas prices make out of town gigs iffy to take. And there is no saying he could be dropped any time from his regular gig with no warning. The "arts" world isn't what it used to be. Not to mention the burnout factor. For a while I was playing in three bands. I got to where I hated to pickup my instrument.
All the more reason that education should be free, so people who want to engage in the arts don't do so with huge debts hanging over their heads.
Just paid my daughter's second-year first semester bill. I attended a nationally-ranked top-tier public University in the same state back in the late 70's. According to two CPI calculators, my tuition and fees would be the equivalent of $770 today, but it's $4700 for her.
I think we've been seduced to believe that a college degree--at any cost to the parents or student--will guarantee a happy and productive life. Sadly, that isn't the case
Professor, that is because the GI Bill is not meant to subsidize the exorbitant tuition charged by many schools in this country. However, I recently spoke to a veterans rep at a very good state supported engineering school (it has a 97% placement rate and a #6 ranking for salaries of mid career professionals no less) who told me my daughter could easily have the 3 years she would need for a degree funded by the New GI Bill, without working. Her first year would be more than covered by her Community College of the Air Force degree.
chris: I'm sure you're right. I was simply responding to a poster above who claimed that getting a college degree funded was as easy as serving in the military.
Stop laying all of the blame on the schools. Kids have to be realistic in their expectations. In the fraternal organization where I belong 2 of the bartenders have BA's in graphic arts and another has a degree in photography. They complain about he fact they cannot get a job in their field and their student loans. Seriously, just what did they expect? Most organizations don't need a professional graphic artist they just get a talented secretary and give him or her Photoshop to do the few jobs they need around the shop. The few that really do need a full time graphic artist have their pick of hundreds so the salaries are abysmal. Despite this, when I recently attended a state school visit day the art table had crowds of kids lined up to get literature. The engineering or science tables that could actually give a kid a skill to acquire a job hardly had anyone stopping at all for information. Dumb, dumb, dumb....
Not that the military is "easy" these days but I do get your point.
chris: I never thought the military was easy.
It's unfortunately getting to the point where only the wealthy will be able to afford to send their children to get a higher education. If these schools would cease from wasting funds upon ignorant classes like How To Speak Klingon 101, perhaps they'd be able to lower their tuition costs. And don't get me started on the conservatives not wanting to assists our young people with their student loans . . .
cali, can you not see the paradox of your complaints concerning the high cost of the college and in the same paragraph your criticism of conservatives for their being unwilling to further support its unsustainable rise? You cannot have it both ways but so many people these days seem to wish it so and your are, apparently, one of them.
When you push Americans so much on cost, they will be inclined to seek a alternative for what they want. They want to find the best deals for gas, they go to a little website saying where it is. Same just as college, for every public university that charges 50K a year for a 4 year degree, there will be people seeing the same degree program at a small time community college.
Sure the name prestige is different on the piece of paper, but in the end you won't be spending years in a big hole that might never even climb out of.
Having 40K in debt is much more easily on one persons mind than 200K when the 6-month deferment plans on the loans kick in and your still looking for a job in the market after you graduated.
Problem with that is that in today's job market when an HR manager sees two resumes, one of which shows an engineering degree from Cal Tech and the other one shows a similar degree from Metro State University, which candidate do you think they'll favor?
Just like generic products at the local supermarket. Sure, they may be the same quality, but why take the chance...?
Unfortunately a "brand name" degree these days has that cachet of exclusivity and superiority.
@Severed Head...it actually depends. If it is an entry level position with a small company, they may choose the person with the Metro State Degree. They will guess, rightly, that when the economy improves, the Cal Tech engineer will probably leave for a better job, whereas the person with the Metro State degree is probably happier with job/salary he got. Also, depending on the job, it may not need a Cal Tech degree...so the person from Cal Tech would feel under-appreciated/under-utilized at the low level job.
Yes and No. Yes, college name brands carry more weight in certain careers field. Anything that is associated with some kind of corporation will likely fall within that scenerio. Yet other industries aren't as hung up about which college name is one your application. These are typically smaller businesses (which could could still have a couple hundred employees) care more about the potential abilities of the actually person and about what their specific knowledge / skill sets are.
For example, I work in the Construction industry. While people can flash around the names of their big name institutions, some of the city-specific "state" schools are known for actually have better construction programs. In the end, those degrees which cost $70-80 per credit hour will end up being more valueable than the degrees of those who paid many times that amount.
You just have to understand the industry that you're looking to enter. Once you know how it sees things and how it thinks, pick the "best" school for that industry. Just make sure that you're actually learning and not just getting high grades through short term memory tests.
Big school names in education are just that: big names.
They are exclusive, but the exclusivity come from getting in. I went to one of the top-10 business schools in the world, their education is exactly the same as any other school (finance is the same everywhere, as is accounting). The difference is in the quality of the students. In my school, there were very few idiots (although some managed to sneak in).
I just wish that employers expanded their horizons when hiring for entry-level positions. When the top law firms only look at Harvard and Columbia, it makes it more exclusive and more unfair for everyone else. They need to realize that talent can come from elsewhere. Maybe if there was some sort of standardized testing to take after grad school, so that even if you went to a small college, but are smart to score high on the test, you can compete with Harvard grads.
New dorms/libraries/stadiums don't grow on trees. Colleges are about as good at spending your money as the city you live in.
For people supposedly so smart, the administration sure is dumb. They only panicked when they saw a decline in enrollment. Kharma would truly be sweet if EVERYONE stopped going to the over-priced colleges. Then the administrators wouldn't have jobs! Sweet Kharma!
As a parent with a child who will be attempting to enter college within the next two years, I'm watching this unfold very closely. We're not rich so we're looking at scholarships to take her through. Hopefully, she'll be able to weather this storm and come out the other end not owing any student debt. It scares me to think that the only thing she'll learn in college is how to handle debt.
The debt is not a issue if you don't go overboard. They key is to ensure graduation with a degree that can actually get a job that can pay off the debt in a reasonable time. I suspect out of all the degrees a college offers only a small percentage are in enough demand to get employers competing for graduates.
If a student does not have a interest in one of the in demand areas (mostly technical degrees) they may need to rethink if college is actually a good idea when a huge loan is involved. May be better off taking a lower paying job and take 6 years to get a degree part time than taking on debt that will take 15 years to pay off
Freeze??? They have already jacked up the tuition rates to the point that a good portion of those attending now have student loan debt they may well never be able to retire. They gouged the crap out of students and the government to pad their own pockets like thieves.
I sure as hell don't want the government running/deciding educational pursuits. On the other hand, the colleges and universities have proven thus far they lack the self-control to screw every kid that walks in the door. The kid is caught smack in the middle because a good majority of employers are wanting full 4 year degrees for entry-level clerical positions. Maybe if these places of higher education took the focus off "the job" - we might have some kids that can think outside of the box. They have forced - at a high profit - the kid into skills training instead of education.
I do not expect 'free' tuition. But, Jesus, lets not do in the next generation before they even get started.
Money. Money. Money.
Glad this started to take place after I completed college less than 2 years ago. College is merely a business, with very few actually truly caring about their students. Banks and Automobile industry get wreckless, bailed out, and still dont change. I dont buy this article - Ill believe it when I see it. A few colleges might do it here and there but to get a nationwide halt, or even to think its a possibility, is a joke. Too many executives and bearucratic agendas for it to happen
I quit two years ago when tuition rates hit $500 a credit hour....for gen ed classes like public speaking, history, basic math, etc. What did I come away with?? Jefferson was never able to admit in public that 1+1=3
If you have to take basic math, you probably should not start at a 4-year college.
Hypocrisy, you ever been to college? They all have gen ed requirements that require you to take what is basically, basic math. I went to my college algebra class a couple of times then said "the heck with this" and went out and CLEP'd it before the drop deadline. Meanwhile the teacher actually had the nerve to tell me I would never pass the CLEP test. Bad on her! I CLEPED out almost a year of college but many schools don't allow that option....
Companies also need to start getting a realistic look at their true hiring requirements. Does this position REALLY need a 4 year degree? Especially when the degree is non-specified and a high school grad with more relevant experience could be a better fit for the job.
It needs a 4 year degree when many young people either 1) don't take advantage of their high school education or 2) are given a poor high school education. Employers require a 4-year degree because it ensures that the employee has some basic skills and could ultimately take on more responsiblity over the years.
Sorry pal but some jobs need higher ed to master. i wouldn't want a HS grad running my entire department without any real business experience. You sound like a HS grad who can't find a job. Don't believe the hype, a college degree is needed. Perhaps the schools need to look into the salaries it pays it's educators. i know a few directors at my place that teach at a local community college and they are getting $75per hour to do it. No teacher is worth that money. everyone should make a fair salary but the education of our countries youth should take precedent over money. Same goes for hospital administrators. Doctors shouldn't be making 500K a year, no matter how specialized they are. Reduce college tuition costs and doctors can go to school cheaper and you would be justified in reducing doctor salaries seeing as how they wouldn't be carrying as much debt. We need to remove GREED from the equation in this country. Nothing will change until we stop worshipping money and realize that we shouldn't be putting a value on so many things that are important to a society.
I agree with you to a great extent. These days the use lack of a degree as the first method of disqualification of candidates, simply because there are so many people with degrees, and so few positions available.
And it's not recent, either. I graduated in 1969 with a BA in psychology and was immediately hired by a state govenment as an entry-level psychologist. I performed the required job duties with no problems whatsoever. I also used the state-provided education benefits to get an MA in clinical psychology along the way.
When I left that job 5 years later the requirements for an entry-level psychologist had been changed slightly. The position now required a BA, an MA, and 2 years post-MA experience under a licenced psychologist. The job duties remained the same.
As did the pay.
Many times community colleges can give you value for your money, by getting an AA degree then finding a job and transfer/roll over your credits from the 2 year community college into the bachelors program. In some states 4 year colleges are required to accept the credits from the 2 year colleges, thus those credits completed at the community college do not have to be repeated at the 4year school.
The cost of the community college credits is less than at the 4 year school. So the first 60 credits earned at the community college can be transferred into the BS program where you might need another 60 credits or more (depending on the profession) to get your Bachelors degree. Plus you can always go to the community college and do continuing education credits to upgrade your knowledge base.
The problem in the USA is that everything is about capitalism. It is about making money/profit so the schools pile on the academic subjects one must complete which may have nothing to do with the chosen profession.
Back in the day one needed a BS in Pharmacy to be a pharmacist and to pass your state boards to be licensed. Now the person must now have a PharmD, and the person must still do continuing ed cred every year to keep their license. Even with the PharmD - and just like the person who only had the BS - if you do not pass your state boards you cannot practice as a pharmacist. It is all about the money/profit.
Eg...Literature is nice but who would have the time to quote poetry to a patient if you are studying to be a nurse or a doctor? And would the patient care to hear the doc or nurse wax poetic when the patient is bleeding out... LOL But you need those english lit creds. LOL
Many of these programs need to cut the waste and fat. But then these unis would not make as much money would they if some of these filler courses were not added, especially courses that one should have completed in highschool..
At least these unis are getting the message. It is doubtful that paying 1000 dollars per credit hour is going to give you more value for money, than if you spent 500 dollars per credit hour for the same course at an instate university. Ivy league or otherwise is the same if you cannot find a job. At least going to an instate public uni is more cost effective as you would be owing less money. LOL
Peace....
Why wouldn't someone want to pay huge amounts of money to receive years of liberal indoctrination/dribble from unemployable overpaid elitist professors who think they have the answer to all the worlds problems because they have read some books (but have never actually done anything) to receive a degree that employers know is nothing more than a "graduate Nazi Youth" program for liberal progressives? (they taught me run on sentences at Cal)
No most would want to follow the Republican philosophy of keep the public uneducated. We will tell them everything we want them to know.
Duuhhhh okayyyy ... thats a good one Stan!
Spoken like a person who has no education. Too bad you missed out on the best time of your life but it's not our fault you are a dummy.
Ummmm, California better known as Mexifornia has been run by Democrats for the past 40 years. So what's your point again 'Stan'?....
Hmmmm. That'd be news to Ronald Reagan, George Deukmejian, Pete Wilson, and Arnold Schwartzenegger.
good news !! lets hope this "trend " continues.here's an idea, go to the U of I , where we have a huge MEDICAL facility, which one do you believe the country needs more? lawyers or doctors?.
What Obama the Chicago Shylock does not say about his health plan? The money borrowed by Students will at %6.8 starting in 2014 puruant to the Obamacare. What does college tuition have to do with a government health plan? Obama borrows the money at %2.8. Does he pass that rate on to the starving students? No. He uses difference to pay for his health care plan.
We need this guy out,
Damn I'm tired of hearing Obama this and Obama that. Do you have to turn everything into a political rant to soothe your racism?
p*ss off
Stay on the topic and take your "troll" elsewhere. Geeez
For one thing, financial institutions were charging higher interest rates for risk free loans because they are guaranteed by the govt. Why should the middle man get the profit for little to no risk and leave the taxpayer paying the tab.
Now that the govt has control, they can set more reasonable rates and get a little back for taking the risk, and to pay towards the good of the general populace.
I free to say what I want, when I want. That is, until Obama takes that right away too.
In case you had not noticed, p*ssed off, this article is about the outrageously high rates of tuition at our colleges and universities. And that those rates have to be lowered. Try reading it again and then come up with a reply that isn't utter nonsense. Yeah, yeah, yeah we know all about your precious "rights". Run along back to Rush's camp.
Pssd... Nice try, but the student loans interest rate was held hostage by the T'republiconservadinos who did not want to keep the interest rate low in the first place without some offset or other. It was a struggle to get them to do the right thing and help the students.
With folks of your ilk it is no wonder we haven't progressed further than we are now. It is easy to blame Pres Obama for the economy as it is, by ignoring the fact that it is the T'repconservadinos who are holding up all the actual, real jobs bills with their fillibusterings of same since 2009.
It was interesting to learn that T'repcondinos believed that all those anti-reproductive rights bills that your T'repcon-ds pols keep passing in the House were actually supposed to be thought of as jobs bills. Talk about learning something new every day....
Perhaps those anti-reproductive rights bills could provide jobs after all ....for the sonogram folks with their vaginal probings... and for all those many newly minted govt inspectors/reviewers who will now be needed to check to make sure that the vaginal sonogram probing are actually being done and that that spiel have been read to the women by the doctor, and that the monitor was positioned just right for the women to see.
Must not forget their need to check that folks are not using... er sneaking around taking hormonal contraceptives or using condoms. Gotta make those women get preggers and then have those babies. This gives new meaning re the call for 'smaller government' a la T'repcon-ds.
OOps sorry.... come to think about it, those anti-reproductive rights bills were jobs bills after all.... never mind.
Still can't understand why you are so bent out of shape re the student loan rate increase though considering that there is this push by T'recons to do away with the dept of education, teachers etc. as evidenced by statements made by some of the T'repcon primary candidates who seem to be against post highschool education for the masses.... doing the janitorial work would have been ok though.
One would have thought you would be happy about the ACA though, so that you will no longer have to pay for all those uninsured 'freeloader' folks, -you know the ones that want 'free stuff' a la Gov Romney, and that the t'repcons rale about,- who are supposed to be sucking the monies out of your tax pockets, as they will now need to get and help pay for their health insurance for their own lazy selves, plus get physicals and followup healthcare to help them lose weight, eat right, excercise etc treat their various and sundry diseases before they get worse and have to be admitted to the hospital via the ER for expensive lengthy stays. Think of all the monies the T'repcon-ds 'job creators' would be making and saving for themselves.... Hmmm
Talk about looking at a gift horse in the face and refusing the gift..
Oh what the hay... what do I know.....
decent rant, but hold the bold
We should just require everyone to go to college, or pay a "penalty/tax" if they don't, to decrease costs... haha
askabout...
LOL... great idea! Then those "freeloaders" who have jobs but didn't go to college will finally have to pay their fair share!!
While we are at it, lets have higher tuition for students who get good grades and offer reduced tuition to students who are failing (like taxes). ORRRRR we could just give everyone a "C" to be "FAIR".
I like the sound of it. Or better yet, we could have people pay EXTRA high tuition rates in order for "the school to give" scholarships to needier students... oh wait...
I love reading school's need based scholarship numbers... doesn't that mean they are actually just chargin the other students way too much?!?! ha.
Don't give them ideas!! :-)
Actually, we kind of do at the tax payer's expense. It is called a free public education. A 10 year needs to go to school for the public good.
good idea, that would mean less high school educated moron's....
.unfortunately the down side is there would be more collage educated moron's.......................:)
Kirstyloo2 - you're right. That is true. However, theoretically, everyone is paying the same tax rate (state) and property tax rate, etc. to have their kid go to the same school and get the same education.
Its just out of control.
& for those of us with zero help from family, Pell grants and scholarships only get you so far.
I keep reading up on shortages of medical professionals but I wonder how they expect to fill those gaps if they make it impossible for competent students to afford further study?
I'm looking at another potential $100K to $200K in debt for vet school and I might make $80K when I get out? By working my way through undergraduate I've managed come out without much debt, not sure if I'm willing to make that leap. I can't be the only one.
plus, I was just reading a silly article about whether MBA's were worth it, and it's CRAZY when you try to calculate the return on investment... (the article didn't really do a very good job of it)
If you take out your taxes, then your necessities, then the fact that you'll probably at least live a LITTLE better with more money as a salary, you're only left with a little bit left over used to pay back your loans, PLUS you ENTIRELY forgo salaries during the years you are in school....
@askaboutet I know! I usually try to stay away from these articles, they just add to the confusion and disparity. :-(
I went to 4 years of undergrad (parents paid for it) then I went to 3 years of law school (student loans paid for it).
My friend went into landscaping right out of high school and made, say, $35,000 each year. That measm he had made 245,000 when I got out of law school, and I had made ($120,000).
I started out $365,000 worse than him, PLUS I have to pay interest on that $120,000, PLUS there are too many lawyers for the amoutn of jobs there are! haha.
Got that right! My brother had 30 years experience in corporate law and was certified to practice before the SCOTUS before his law firm "retired" him. After his former law firm eliminated healthcare coverage for their retirees he needed to go back to work to cover his health expenses. For the past three years he's been working the occasional contract job because it's all the work he can find.
The University of Tennessee/Knoxville campus is a mass of construction, to the tune of nearly a billion dollars. Tuition is up fifteen percent this year, and the top dog over there is crying for more state funding. This doesn't count the 250 million on an upgrade to the football stadium under way. These people have no idea that this country in in a recession. The tuition is four times higher than in 1998 when my child graduated, and this is a state college. What are they planning a prep schools for rich foreigners who can afford the tuition and hundreds of dollars in fees added to that tuition. UT requires each student that drives to pay $150 a semester for a parking pass. They sell 30,000 of the passes, when there are only around 1500 parking places. The pass is essentially just a hunting pass. Is there something wrong with this scenario? No wonder the voting precinct goes dem every year, this is Obamaland extraordinaire. And they are tearing down a thirteen thousand seat field house that is in perfectly good shape.
When I went to college, I shared a dorm room with 2 other strangers, had a shared bathroom with the whole hallway and ate (not so great) food in the dorm dining hall. I didn't have rock walls, exotic food options, deluxe accommodations... I went to college for an education. The whole cruise ship mentality of colleges today, has to be curtailed. Lower there costs, and lower our tuition.
A new library might cost x, but the installation of a cutting edge fitness center with rock walls, and spa accommodations is not needed at colleges. So even if Jane and John go... and get treated on mom and dad's dime to a 4 year cruise ship.... the stark reality of no jobs/low paying jobs is going to be an evil smack in the face. Wasted money. I truly hope more people start revolting from this type of over the top prices.
i too experienced the same thing, but it was all male and there was allot more of us in one "dorm".....it was called "BOOT CAMP"................................:)
P.S. we did get a free overseas "vacation" afterwards however......it was called Vietnam...........
Funny! Thanks for your frolicking on the beaches of Camh Ran Bay, on the beautiful South China Sea.
I hope this is something that will improve upward mobility
70+ schools with $1 billion endowments.
And tuition just keeps going up?
PS. You're not supposed to touch most endowments. The interest helps to fund the school.
kinda like SS? that isnt working out too well now is it.......................?
This guy is complaining about state tuition and then goes to law school? Retard. Law school is the biggest sham going among higher educational institutions. Anybody worried about tuition debt DO NOT go to law school even if your goal is to change the world or society because the only change you will be getting is the kind you will have to beg for to survive.
GOAT, Obama and Mochelle went to law school, and are not licensed lawyers. Wonder who paid their tuition? I give you two guesses, and one doesn't count.
It's really all about the HUGE egos of College Presidents. They are not businessmen who understand price-value-competition.
They want bigger, more and beautiful.
dennis-2389726
So in other words, you have no clue about business and marketing.
Wow,
according to my professors understanding price-value-competition are cornerstones of business and marketing. Sorry to hurt your College President ego.
Tell me why a University Executive should get over a million? I saw an interview with the NU president and he had every excuse in the book. The OSU president's salary came up and he spouts off about fund-raising and everything else. He can make 3 times what he's paid in the private sector he stated. So go let him. Working for the state should not pay you exorbitant amounts of money. This fraternity of university people having a fervent for higher education stinks like raw manure. They are getting paid too much money.
Thats the same story we hear from all of our educators though isn't it? Everytime there is a teacher strike what do we hear.. We get the threats of failure...
"If you don't pay us what WE think we deserve then you will be stuck with all the bad teachers" lol... and that is usually followed up with we work from 6am to 7pm and then grade papers all night, buy our students supplies and all summer long we are required to take extra courses and.,.. and... bah !!! We truly do need higher education... What we don't need is high and mighty people teeling us without them we will be failures.. Its a lie and unfortunately we fell for it hook line and sinker which allows them to rape us with the overpriced diplomas which do nothing but pad their pockets and bank accounts..
If you can make 3 times that amount in the private sector then Please Don't let fear stop ya. Pack up and head out pal..You'll be repalced before your leather chair in front of your 5k desk gets cold... bu bye!!!
Higher education is a racket...
Thats the same story we hear from all of our CEO's though isn't it? And they're too big to fail.
Suuure, a college president should make two and one half times what the US President earns....no, make that gets, none of them earn it.
Build more colleges. The tuition has been increasing because of supply and demand. Increase the supply and the price will fall.
Can't. 31 states are broke thanks to Obama's trickle up policies. A measly $700 Billion added to the GDP since he took office. That will not even cover the stimulus.
It was 32 States that were broke, but Scott Walker pulled Wisconsin into the black and they tried to hang hin for it.
Lovely.
This the age of internet. You don't need to build physical campus anymore. Just build a bunch of virtual campus, and revise the accrediation rules so they can get accrediated and the students getting the education they need.
P.O.
Walker/Brewer 2012
James,
How true i am currently working on my "porn degree" right now ....!!...going to be an absolutely huge graduating class i bet............................................:)
Vote for anyone who's last name does not start with an "O"
No prices will not go down. There are plenty of on-line colleges that easily popped up over night and tuition is still high.
Currently, the tax payers are on the hook for $950 billion in student loan debt with an projected default rate of 25%. Without the government's backing their isn't a financial institution, in America, that would take one of these loans. Considering the default rate, as a tax payer, would you want to back a $100,000 loan for a student that was majoring in fine arts?
By making large student loans easy to get, we are actually hurting the students. Tuition goes up because of the ability of students to obtain the money. Over the last twenty years, tuition has increased 184% while graduate pay, adjusted for inflation, has increased only 9%.
For those that are upset at sport programs, that usually pay for themselves, consider that nearly half of graduates lack basic reading and math skills.
Doug:
As I've pointed out elsewhere on these discussions, as of 2009 (the latest year for which data are available), only 40 universities nationwide had a net profit from their athletic programs.
dslsca, OK. I will accept that as fact. If we abandon sports, will that solve the problem? Will they be able to lower tuition? What effect would that have on the mounting student loans?
What about dropping tenure?
Doug: To the extent that most colleges spend money on athletics rather than make money from them, yes, getting rid of athletics would mean the potential for lowering tuition. Frankly, I'm not at all sure where we ever got the notion that providing public mass scale entertainment was part of a college's job.
I'm not sure how you think tenure has an impact on student loans. All tenure means is a guarantee of freedom of dismissal without cause. Plenty of tenured people get fired every year for cause.
I think getting rid of tenure would be a bad idea. Here's why. Imagine a professor (in your system without tenure) at a state medical school where the Tea Party types take over the governorship and the legislature and pass a law that no state employee can advocate any position counter to or critical of Christian dogma. This professor teaches students who will treat genetic diseases, but is now legally prohibited from using his/her knowledge of evolutionary genetics to inform these students (and thus to benefit these students' future patients). In a system with tenure, the professor could tell the governor/legislators to STFU (as the kids say). Wouldn't you want your child's genetic disease to be treated by a doctor who understands evolutionary genetics??
cant afford collage? oh well the world needs more janitors and "sanitation engineers" anyway......................:)
collage? lol
Accounting major. yes.
liberal arts degree...yes...oh BTW do you want fries with that?................:)
Freezing tuition is nice but are they raising "fees" to make up for it?
wont need to, they are getting a kickback from the local bars and liquor stores, and wait tell the get their hooks on the dealers, they will be rolling in dough................:)
so less collage educated moron's
IA - let me help you,
Capitalize the 'S' - throw in a comma - college has an 'e' instead of an 'a' - and morons (without the apostrophe) is the correct way to say 'multiple morons'.
You are welcome.