And what do you propose to do about those pesky laws regarding physician-patient confidentiality?

This shows how many crazy people are out there and are a timebomb with the patient doctor confidentiality laws.

Patient-doctor confidentiality may be legally broken by the doctor if the patient makes known that he/she intends to harm themself or others.

But they may not subsequently blather it to anyone, like the media, even after the fact. Just the authorities.

Something tells me that there is more to this story than what the media is able to be told, even besides the gag order.

Possibly, but what could they have done had they known? They can't arrest people for crimes they have not yet commited like in "Minority Report"

Denver bill,

Psychiatrists and other healthcare professionals have a competing legal obligation called a "duty to warn" that will usually trump confidentiality and gives the provider some immunity in notifying authorities of a significant risk of harm. As the article states it generally requires that the patient relay to the provider an actual plan to harm someone and that the patient have the capacity to carry out the threat.

Generally that threshold to warn would be even lower in the case of a provider in a university health service notifying the school's threat assessment team of a potential for violence. What we don't know is what the psychiatrist actually told the school. It could have been anything from a definite plan of violence to her professional judgment that he had the potential for violence. Even if he threatened violence, she may not have had enough information to judge his capacity to carry out the plan (would she have known he had all those weapons?).

Whether the school should have notified the police is again a matter of degree. Being angry and depressed are not crimes. The decision to notify the police would have depended on what the school was told by the psychiatrist and what they could verify. If the threat was not specific or if there was no threat at all and the student was planning on withdrawing from the university it might not have been unreasonable for the school to think that the solution might be to just let him withdraw.

If university psychiatrists had to report to the police every time they interviewed a confused, angry depressed student they would reporting a lot of students and students would stop going to see university psychiatrists to get help with their problems.

Psychiatrist warned university about Aurora suspect weeks before massacre

Just like the Minneapolis FBI field agents, and the al-Qaida expert John P. O'Neill warning the Bush Administration of an al-Qaida planned attack on the U.S. in 2000; a year before it actually happened.

Maybe the mistake is contemplating the second amendment, instead of promoting it?
In reality is it really someone else's job to protect you?

I have been in situations where your smiling and living normally and next thing u know there is someone with a gun and a bad agenda. I do question preparation and skill, due to the fact it isn't war that is not a good social atmosphere.

I really don't think you will ever find a perfect answer to this riddle.

the more you try the more freedom you lose. Patriot act 2.0?

This didnt happen on a college campus it happened in public. MSNBC please don't try and pin some blame on a college!

I know first hand these "wacko" people are out there in numbers but they have rights too, in the law's eyes. There is not alot that the police can do, unfortunately, until they do something to merit an arrest. I dont agree with it, but, at least in Michigan, that's how it is done.

MDB123

Maybe the mistake is contemplating the second amendment, instead of promoting it?
In reality is it really someone else's job to protect you?

I am not disagreeing with the idea that the 2nd ammendment is here and it your right and guns can be used to protect. And I cannot stress this enough: those guns you own, no one of any consequence is contemplating taking them away from you.

But in this case, this guy step out into view in what seems to be a costume carrying what people thought were props. If several people on the audience had been carrying guns, it would have protected no one whatsoever. I'm sorry, it just wouldn't have helped. In fact, after people started dying, the people packing, would have started shooting possible killing or wounding the suspect and likely killing and wounding others in the theater.

Guns may help when you have an intruder in your house, or a situation that can be contained like that, but having a gun will not stop the other guy's bullets. And to answer your question: Yes, it is also someone else's job to protect you and no, you cannot be perfectly protected in all situations.

Observer_1

Patient-doctor confidentiality may be legally broken by the doctor if the patient makes known that he/she intends to harm themself or others.

joemike404

Denver bill,
Psychiatrists and other healthcare professionals have a competing legal obligation called a "duty to warn" that will usually trump confidentiality and gives the provider some immunity in notifying authorities of a significant risk of harm.

You are both correct. However, in most states the warnings given by MD's cannot be used as evidence in court.

Just like the Minneapolis FBI field agents, and the al-Qaida expert John P. O'Neill warning the Bush Administration of an al-Qaida planned attack on the U.S. in 2000; a year before it actually happened.

Whew....I was worried that someone wouldn't bring up politics!!!! {sarc}

Hal,

Honestly it's a 50/50 for me. But take personal public protection away and it becomes a 0/100.

However I can't stop thinking about the plane that crashed in shanksville PA. That inevitably missed its target which would of inflicted more harm and quite possibly many more victims.

However this guy seemed set in causing mass casualties if he was not able to acquire a small arsenal, he seems quite capable of creating an archaic but effective bomb.

ME

You seem to be a real authority on this....

I'm sure the victims families will find comfort in the fact you say "don't blame it on the college"...

btw - nice that you blame msnbc - you might recheck and see data came from NBC and "wire reports" - (that would include other sources)

Our govt does not consider people like Holmes to be dangerous...that is why $150 million of our tax dollars have been spent on trying to pass legislation against those the govt deems to be dangerous- list follows

1 ... those who own livestock even as pets will be equired to register with the govt, microchip and file movement reports. See no nais dot org.

2--gun drawn raids in the homes of those who drink raw milk. Google raw milk raids.

3---USDA harrassing, terrorizing owner of imported sheep thought to have mad cow disease (sheep do not get this disease) google mad sheep

4- million dollar fine for family not have license to sell rabbits (Google Dollarhite rabbits)

5. registering gardens in Utah through phony contest.

I know all this sounds crazy, only wish it were but this is what big ag wants and is trying to get our govt to do...no wonder kooks like Holmes get ignored while resources being wasted on non-criminals.

To MDB123-

I'm sorry, you're not the first, and I was 100% in line with you until I read,

"That inevitably missed its target which would of inflicted more harm..."

It's would have. Not would of. That 2 letter word made your whole post mute.

Sorry, just had to point it out.

GreenEyedLadyinTexas: That four-letter word "mute" made your whole post moot.

Sorry, just had to point it out.

TomTom-72 wrote "Just like the Minneapolis FBI field agents, and the al-Qaida expert John P. O'Neill warning the Bush Administration of an al-Qaida planned attack on the U.S. in 2000; a year before it actually happened."

Unfortunately for you Tom, George W. Bush was in office January 20, 2001 – January 20, 2009. The Presidential administration in office in 2000 was Bill Clinton's.

Anyone with hair that color should probably be locked up.

If the doctor felt there was imminent danger, and that Univ did nothing, the Univ should also be part of an investigation.

This guy sounds like a clear and present danger and no did diddly squat about it. At least a 72 hour hold on this monster might have given law enforcement to execute a search warrant on his apt and maybe all those dead would still be with us.

The conduct of the University at being informed is probably going to take a big hit and rightly so.

The doctor did what the law required. The University failed to follow through.

Greenfungus,

If you knew anything about me you would know that that was an attempt to step out of my own shoes.

You should try it! Your shoes probably stink like everyone else's.

Funny tho the stereotype of Texans seems to be remarkably accurate.

Sorry to those texans that don't speak through their puckered anus.

It seems by their comment that it is possible someone there dropped the ball because "the student was dropping out" ! Now you get word a person is dangerous to him or her self or to others and since he or she is cutting ties to you place you dismiss it as if its someone elses problem? WOW

And the responsibility (and liability) for this crazy person is now laid firmly at the feet of the university.

The psychiatrist did what she could, warning the authorities at the school. Add that to the sudden dropping out of school.

You gotta wonder about people who make major changes in their lives. Since colleges take thousands of dollars from students each year, they do have some requirement of providing some protection.

The University of Colorado Denver psychiatrist seeing accused murderer James Eagan Holmes was so alarmed by his behavior that she notified the campus-wide threat-assessment team that she helped create years before, a source told The Denver Post.

Dr. Lynne Fenton, identified in a court document as Holmes' psychiatrist, in June took her concerns to members of the campus' Behavioral Evaluation and Threat Assessment team, but no further action was taken, a source with knowledge of the process told The Post.

...7News reported Wednesday that a source said Fenton first contacted the BETA team in "the first 10 days" of June, but the team didn't meet or move the matter forward because Holmes began the process of leaving CU.

An action passed is an action completed. Obviously he was no longer a danger since he was dropping out of school.

So, once again a college administration is told of a danger, and does nothing to stop it.

Time to raise Tuition rates! (gonna earn those student loan finance company kickbacks!)

The responsibility of this crazy person rests with HIM, not anyone else. No one told him to go out and do this or encouraged him, he is responsible for what he has done.

But of course the college has deep pockets so that's where people will point the finger.

You cannot police everyone, you just can't. People are going to be crazy and you're not responsible for them just because they attended your college, they shopped at your Wal Mart, they bought your legal guns over the internet.

I guarantee you, that the families of the victims will reach out and touch everyone that has deep pockets and make them responsible (theatre, college, psychiatrist, those that sold him the guns, his parents) instead of the actual perpetrator.

I've heard this record play over and over and over. It all boils down to $$ in the end and we go after those with deep enough pockets to provide it and the actual criminal--all he gets is time.

Unfortunately for you Tom, George W. Bush was in office January 20, 2001 – January 20, 2009. The Presidential administration in office in 2000 was Bill Clinton's

Bill C, But I hope you do recall members of the Bush Administration, particularly Condelleza Rice, being grilled on Capitol Hill by members of Congress for having advanced notice of the attacks on the United States and taking no action, whatsoever, to prevent them.

Kimbo47The responsibility of this crazy person rests with HIM, not anyone else. No one told him to go out and do this or encouraged him, he is responsible for what he has done.

But of course the college has deep pockets so that's where people will point the finger.

You cannot police everyone, you just can't. People are going to be crazy and you're not responsible for them just because they attended your college, they shopped at your Wal Mart, they bought your legal guns over the internet.

He is responsible for his actions and the university is responsible for it's inaction.

i agree waht you say is true

Then Khan, he is not insane. Insane is a legal term, not a medical term and it means that the individual does not have the mental capacity to understand right from wrong and therefore cannot be held legally liable for his/her actions. If he knew what he was doing was "wrong" then he is not insane.

"If we locked up every single person who has ever presented with abnormal thoughts and/or behaviors, every single one of us would be wearing a straight jacket"

If any law allowed police to track people who purchase those sorts of ammunitions and weapons in that timespan... then I think the shrink's warning combined with the above records would should been plenty for the cops do something about it. But of course, we're in the US and we can't have any sort of discussion about gun laws...

Actually, in Dark Knight, Ledger does get arrested without resistance. He then pisses everyone off while getting interrogated for information before a bomb goes off, distracting the police. Holmes rigged his apartment.. Joker rigged a warehouse w Dent and Rachel.. This is copied right from the movie. Plus, the insanity plea is out the window when he knowingly bought body armor for the shootout and told police that he had a bomb in his apartment. Is he disturbed? Yes. Insane? No, he just wants everyone else to think that. So what is the final result?

Murder imitating art = Insane.. He didn't know what he was doing. (Really?)

It is contradictory to call someone insane and then ask if they knew what they were doing. If he actually thought that he was the Joker and that the Joker would arm himself with 100 rounds of ammunition to carry out his plan, then even his being "organized" so to say makes sense. Plus, we also know that he is/was very bright. You can be a genius, but insane. I don't know if in Colorado it is possible to be found "guilty, but insane", because that really is the truth of the matter. Also, if it is true that the University was warned, the University is going to be partly liable. Why have a student health clinic and then ignore the warning given by one of your psychiatrists? Doctors can involuntarily commit people whom you deem are a danger to themselves or others.

You bet he knows right from wrong, and from what I have seen and read, he wasn't all that crazy. He may have been depressed but he was studying mental illness and diseases as well as neuroscience. He knew to be docile when the police showed up as to keep from being killed himself.

I hope all his smoke and mirrors don't cause our judicial system to pander to him and allow him to get away with these murders. He should and deserves to get the death penalty.

I agree with everything except that he is insane. He knew what he did was wrong. I believe he is smart enough to line things up to make him look insane so he will get a lighter punishment. He has figured that linking Joker to his own behavior will make him look crazy so he is playing the part. He is evil but that doesn't mean he is insane.

My heart goes out to all the victims and their families and hope for a speedy recovery to all injured.

A lot of insane people know the different between right and wrong. but there's a part of the brain that makes you act out your fantasy. People do things that others would not think of doing. what he did was insane. But what he did was a cry out for help in the most horrible way. I can tell people took advantage of him because of his intelligence. All that bent up anger was giving him headaches. When a person plans a horrible event, Its because no one was listening to his cry. So he had to make a statement.

I think that his thoughts were past abnormal. Even his mother said, You have the right man. He was over the edge. His mother didn't have the power to commit him. Someone dropped the ball here.

No, his mother did not say that about HIM. She was referring to herself as his mother, and could have answered the phone call she received at 3 AM frin the media with a better response.

or else, modify it to those that are mentally disabled FOR REAL, and not those that use it to get away with mass muder.

Who in their right mind ever commits a crime of this magnitude? Answer: No one. That said, the insanity defense is over-used and abused these days. If one knows their actions are criminal, if they plan in advance for their attack, if they say or write things that indicate intent, then the insanity defense should be taken off the table. A person can be full on sick in the head and still know what they're doing is just plain wrong.

True. In hindsight, it's easy to say, "Someone should have done something." But before it happens, you can't just lock people up because they're creepy.

I once worked in the same office as a guy who made everyone twitchy. He was paranoid, often telling us, darkly, that the higher-ups in the organization were keeping him down. He was a gun enthusiast. He had an apartment across the highway from the office, with a balcony. We always figured he was going to set himself up on that balcony some day, and start taking people out.

But he never did. His condition got bad enough that the organization gave him a disability retirement. I don't know what happened to him after that, but he never showed up on page 1 of the newspapers.

So, what action could the employer have taken? If warned, what could the police have done?

Unfortunately institutions have to always play that "double sword"of either tell the police, and prevent a tragedy, or else be sued by the student if it turns out to be a false alarm.

The problem is the legal system, that awards so much money to lawsuits.There needs to be a cap on ALL suits, to prevent institutions -like hospitals, schools, factories, etc- from going under if they dare to do the right thing.

Actually Hatfield it looks like you don't have clue.

Wow - I hope not.

I hope we're learning something from this.

I hope we're really evolving.

Evolving?????? Look at our elected officialls. You call that evolving. You think taking down a statue at Penn State is evolving? You think the city of Chicago or Detroit is evolving? We live in a world of Political correct, pass the buck, and avoiding accountability.

Nick, what do our elected officials have to do with this?? Or the statue at Penn State? Ummm, I think nothing!

Operative phrase..."if only".

oh, and Nick... If Penn State hadn't taken down that Statute then the parents and those now grown men should have. He was as guilty as the rest to cover for Sandusky.

I agree and the penalties meeted out fall short to the other individuals responsible at the University. They should have faced criminal charges for compounding Felonies. Money is retrievable. Jail time was appropriate here. Again, no real accountability.

Predjudice much? He had been a model student for years. This guy was smart, he came from a family who had money, He was reported as a quiet guy that wasn't a party animal. NOt that I am taking up for him but your comparing apples to oranges.

Sadly enough this sort of thing has happened before where there were warnings about a person before they carried out their massacre's. Case in point, the Virginia Tech shooter's teachers had gone to the school's administrators and said that they didn't want to have him in their classes because he was so scary and constantly spoke of dark ideas he'd had.

Again...if the university HAD notified police, it would have realted to campus safety, not the safety of the general public. Until or when this guy went off as he did, the police wouldn't have been able to do anything. Being a psychotic mental fruitcake isn't a crime and neither is dropping out of school; it is the activities related that might be. The most the local police could have done was maybe do more patrols in his area..it would be illegal to track his movements unless he was suspected of taking part in a crime.

VA Tech related to campus safety and there was evidence beforehand that the shooter was going to go off on campus; he made statements. Holmes didn't make any statements other htan the fact he was "strange" as far as I have read.

.

The "right to bear assault weapons"

This has been the largest advertising campaign from the NRA. It will be a long time before the President and Congress decide to "revise" the 2nd amendment and limit the purchase of those weapons to the military.

I have a right to buy all the ammo I want for my assualt guns so I can hold off the US army when they come to seize my guns. So I need thousands and thousand of ammo to do so NRA should get the Gatling guns legalized so I could buy a few also

omg... you people are not well educated, That gun looked like an assault rifle when in fact it was semi automatic. Some people just don't know weapons. The media didn't know and just spewed crap.This guy had ammo for all of the four weapons he purchased and he wanted it to look as bad as it sounds.Still a large part why he wasn't crazy like he wanted the world to think so he could escape dying himself.

michael, irrespond, clayton....I only wish i could be there when someone is breaking down your door, or beating the hell out of you or a friend on the street, or your in a crowded restaurant when some s.o.b. comes in and starts shooting, and your screaming for help while you wait for the police to maybe get there before the intruder does....clayton, i don't plan on holding off the u.s. army, all they have to do is dial in a drone with my address and i'm history....i plan on holding off the individual or individuals that think since i'm an old fart they can take what i worked for....

Love my country, fear my government....

michael, irrespond, clayton....I only wish i could be there when someone is breaking down your door, or beating the hell out of you or a friend on the street, or your in a crowded restaurant when some s.o.b. comes in and starts shooting,

Hopefully the intruder does not have a semiautomatic weapon, so I can use my pistol. I am not saying to take away ALL guns. You guys need to stop being so paranoid.

Do you really need 100 ammunition to defend yourself against one intruder? By the time you go and get the rifle, it is too late. Better to have a pistol handy. Something that does not take so much time to use, and has the possibility of NOT getting JAMMED.

Along with his lawyer? So, we should enact laws that require he has access to legal representation, then execute said representation?

If he is determined insane, then why not still give him the death penalty? He will never get a job, he will never be accepted into society for the rest of his miserable life.. So why pamper him? People like this should still get the death penalty like the mad dog he is portraying.

Because IF he is insane (which I doubt), he is not accountable for his actions, and should not face punishment as would a sane person, who IS accountable for his actions. A civilized society does not put to death those who are unable to be responsible for their own actions.

Absolutely. Where is the oversight? Eventhough most college students are considered adults, they are still students and forming a lot of ideas about themselves and the world. It can be a very stressful time and colleges need to be alert to this. I am not sure all of these situations can be prevented, but a little more attention, especially to kids who have been "flagged" as troubled might head tragedies off at the pass..

If you would hold the university responsible for the actions of a student than you would have to hold every other professional who thinks that a person has a mental issue responsible for anything that person does. It would also mean a global reporting of anyone who is diagnosed with a mental issue to the local law enforcement.

Had Holmes gone off on campus I could see it but he wasn't on campus, he didn't make outright statements about any issues (yes, I read about the notebook but it wasn't sent to anyone specific, just the university...do you know how much mail a university gets? That notebook got pushed aside or even tossed as junk mail since it had no "Attn to" type marking).

Addendum...he mailed the notebook to the psychiatrist on the day of the shooting..the amilroom, presumably at the university, didn't get it until Monday...three days post shooting. In other words, no one got word prior to the incident.

You do realize they just reported it, don't you?

?

Agreed Freedom. The same thing happened with the VA Tech shooter. Actually, a friend of mine is a psychologist and she told me that there is a legal allowance which allows a doctor to violate the doctor/patient confidentiality rule in the case of where the doctor feels the patient is a danger to him/herself and/or others.

We can and should. I am a therapist and have done so in the past...One criteria for involuntary hospitalization is consenus that a person is a danger to ones self and or others....Doing anything else is irresponsible....