Sounds right for who, him or the women he took advantage of. He should have been stripped of his uniform, discharged

Avery sad story that our sisters and daughters trying to serve this country with honor to be treated like that.

Coercion and force for sex will never be right, but I have my doubts about how many people are in the military "to serve their country." I think most are there for the pay, benefits and some early retirement unequal in civilian life. Serving one's country doesn't have the same meaning as it did before and most times after WWII.

The all volunteer military had to come up with attractive benefits and life style to get people to join, If they were to "serve their country" then these benefits wouldn't be necessary, as during the period before the all volunteer military. Want to reduce the size of the military? Resort back to the military lifestyle before the all volunteer period and watch 85% leave ASAP.

Hey Dick,

Lets see you do what we do then. Trust me the pay isn't that great at all. Deploy to war-zones where you big benefit is your money being tax free wooohooo what a deal. Trust me if it was about the money I would have got out a long time ago. Now that the wars are drawing down I am getting out, there is no point for me, but don't be so quick to judge there buddy. If you want a mass exodus of the military I hope you are ready for the consequences.

No one ever got rich being in the military. The military does have benefits you don't find in the civilian world, however, none are designed to pad your bank account as much as you think. I, for one, don't think these benefits are adequate compensation for what these young men and women are asked to do.

Seems he got off pretty light considering he used his poistion/rank to conduct himself unbecoming to an officer. Should have been busted down several grades and then dishonorably discharged.

Dick

I know you are just trolling so I will answer all those in uniform are there to serve their country. It does not matter the reason, all serve. Your attempt to create an air of some kind of individual who has mapped out some kind of get rich plan is ridiculous. People enter the service for many reasons but first and foremost is the desire to serve. While there, many take advantage of benefits like schooling, but each person serving whether they get out after their first term or go all the way to thirty have the same mindset of getting the job done. It is not a nine to five job so those not interested in serving get out at the first opportunity and those who have the passion and desire stay as long as possible. You give to the military and country it is not forced from you, most would stay longer but there is reason to the time limit. Your general application of a stereotype is inaccurate as well as unfounded and just for your information our military never goes backwards. This scumball is going to jail as it should be and he certainly does not represent the rest of the people in uniform and I am glad you do not either. By the way 22yrs of faithful service.

Lets see you do what we do then.

Been there done that! You will not know the difference until you catch up on some history though. Read a few books about WWII, Korea, Viet Nam and you will see the difference not only in combat between that era and Iraq but in reasons to serve. Just for starters.

One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58169 were killed and 304000 wounded out of 2.59 million who served.

Iraq 4,400 deaths.

I'm not diminishing the value of those who suffered and died nor anyone who is patriotic. I'm pointing out there is a difference in reasons why people serve. And prepare for the mass exodus, I support it. If the government is paying for these people anyway lets move their creativity into productive purposes at home. And - good luck to you.

My 20 years in the Navy was the longest party I've ever been to! I also knew a lot of women who could out work me, out swear me, out drink me and out fight me! ;(

This story is about women in the military being sexually abused! I know it's hard for some to stay on track, Dick! But it's time for our government and our country to take this seriously!!! Our children are in harms way when they join even during training, for crying out loud! When they get overseas they are killed by friendly fire as well as by the enemy. There is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for Master bullies inside the military to continue to get away with pulling their authority out of their pants to assuage their appetites and their egos. These kind of hypocrites are attempting to teach discipline to our young men and women before they understand the concept themselves. For the sake of God and Country WEED THEM OUT!!! Our military looks like idiots...

Just sayin'...

Amen!!

Thanks Kathryne!

@Dick

I'd really like to know the thought process that leads you to reason out that a draft army would be more patriotic than a volunteer army under any circumstances.

I seldom post comments on any news story from any source on the internet, as the comments generally degenerate very quickly to name calling and finger pointing. In this instance, I think it is critical to differentiate the branches of the armed forces. Army and Marine enlisted personnel are indeed exposed to dangers in combat, and they are probably underpaid and underappreciated for what they do. In the Air Force, on the other hand, the only people in a combat capacity are the pilots, and in today's wars very few pilots are in any real danger- there is very little chance that an AK-47 in the hands of a Taliban fighter will bring down an A10. I work with many retired Air Force enlisted, most of whom spent 20-30 years in safety and relative comfort both here and around the world. To a man, they have bought into the thinking that they are "warfighters", while in reality they are doing jobs that could be handled easily by civilian contractors. I support efforts to find jobs for soldiers and Marines who are leaving the service after a 3-4 year hitch, but I have very little use for the AF retirees and their overwhelming sense of entitlement.

As for a volunteer force versus a drafted army, I don't think you can say that one is more patriotic than the other. I do believe that if we had a draft, some of these wars would end much sooner as the general public raised it's awareness and became outspoken in opposition to unjust and immoral conflicts.

Jealous for you did not join USAF? #22

I recruited for three years and my last enlistment was a medical doctor that had left the Army 10 years previous. He had left the Army as a Staff Sergeant and now wanted to return so he could link up with his old unit. Now mind you I was not a AMEDD recruiter so I tried to send him to the medical recruiter but he would not hear of it. He wanted to come back as a Sergeant and go back to being infantry and wanting to link up with his old unit. If he came in as a Doctor he could have come in as a Lt and within a short time been a Major which the difference in pay would have been triple what he would have made as a Sergeant but that is what he wanted. So yes money is not the only reason Soldiers join, they also join to serve their Nation. His exact words were "this Country has been great to me and I want to serve now that my Country needs me".

Texas Lady-1937322
I'd really like to know the thought process that leads you to reason out that a draft army would be more patriotic than a volunteer army under any circumstances.

I would like to know your thought process that makes you think I think a draft military would be more patriotic. My point is most people don't join the military for patriotism.

Kathryne
This story is about women in the military being sexually abused! I know it's hard for some to stay on track, Dick! When they get overseas they are killed by friendly fire as well as by the enemy._— pulling their authority out of their pants to assuage their appetites and their egos.

Stay on track like your cliche of being killed by friendly and enemy fire has a lot to do with sexual harassment. For your information so few Americans and almost no women are killed by friendly fire that the number is too low to compare for significance. Read my posts and try to connect the dots.

The military has made modern convenience and sexual integration a lure for the volunteer military. With this comes the same problems as in civilian life, including sexual harassment by "pulling their authority out of their pants" and if you are smart enough to see by "using the spider under the skirt" to their advantage also. Sexual harassment and abuse takes all forms and has existed for hundreds of years. Men on women is by no means the only form, you have women on men, and on little boys too. It's all wrong but it exist and the modern military has made it easier now than ever before.

There is a fine line between flirtation and harassment, it can be the same thing just one being wanted and the other not. Since women and men don't wear a badge indicating their desires it has to be interpreted with finesse. One flirtation can lead to harassment with one person but with another person it can lead to marriage.

100's of women have come back from cruises pregnant and I hope you don't think they were all raped. Women enjoy sex too!

Ignoring now, all the sick Dicks...

Peace out!

Yes. And his career is effectively done.

@fingers, Yes, you only get paid by the number of stripes and numbers of years in service. There is a built in pay hike every 2 yrs. He will draw pay at a very low Rank for how ever many years he is in. I noticed that nothing was written about any fine being charged also. Courts Martial Boards usually hit them 3 ways Rank, Fines and some form of time to serve. Just guessing here I would say that they are going to kick him out after time served. Since he got 30 days, he will probably spend it a the local Stockade. I was in the Army and not that sure about the Air Force Procedure but the UCMJ is pretty much standard Branch to Branch. Writers leave out some facts that one can only speculate on sometimes to.

Sadly the journalism is not doing very well on follow through anymore.

He may choose to remain on active-duty, but his reduction from tech sergeant to airman 1st class (E-6 to E-3) along with his conviction, will most certainly make any future promotions highly unlikely. In the "up or out" military, where those not chosen for promotion are forced out of the service, he won't likely be around very long. Unless he happens to be close to his 20 year retirement, in which case he'd retire as an E-3. Not much to show for a 20 year career.

I may be wrong as things may have changed but if he sticks it out till 20 when you retire isnt it based on the highest rank held? I worked with a guy when I was in and he didnt make the "boards" from Captain to Major so he was given the option of Sgt to finish his 20 but he would retire and receive retirement based on rank of Captain. Maybe being a non Judical judgement had a lot to do with it?

Yes, his reduction in rank from a Technical Sergeant to Airman First Class is a reduction in rank from E-6 to E-3, a severe reduction in pay, a loss of his appointment as a Non-commissioned Officer and required to serve in whatever menial job he gets assigned for the rest of his enlistment period, which could be up to four years or more.

Enlisted personnel can't resign (as can officers), so he is stuck in the Air Force. He may never get an Honorable Discharge, but may qualify only for a General Discharge at best once his enlistment ends. This depends on his current sentence. This is the military equivalent of being in a civilian work-release program for years. For a career military person, this effectively ends his career without ending his obligation to continue to serve in whatever menial job he gets assigned. He can't quit or just leave.

I was in the US Air Force. I've seen this kind of sentence happen before. It's severe in ways civilians don't understand. It will severely affect the rest of his life.

His security clearance will be revoked which will bar him from a huge number of positions in the Air Force. He will be at a very junior rank and pay that other Air Force personnel attain at 16 months of service. He will not be supervising people or have any signficant responsibilities other than to follow all the lawful orders given to him by NCOs and officers for whom he will work for the rest of the time he is in the military. He will probably never get another promotion. Promotions from A1C, E-3, (his new rank) to Senior Airman, E-4, (still not an NCO) are completely dependent on his unit commander. His unit commander will never approve one, nor will any subsequent unit commander.

Whatever security clearance he was holding, if any, will be revoked. He will never hold a security clearance in the Air Force again. This will bar him from a huge number of assignments. He will likely lose his eligibility to reenlist which means he will never qualify for retirement. If he is allowed to reenlist, it will be to continue in menial jobs at his current pay and rank. His sentence may reduce his rank for retirement purposes, if he is allowed to reenlist and serve a complete 20 years, which is highly unlikely.

He will hate this for the rest of his life. Once he is discharged, potential civilian employers will take one look at his DD-214, a summary of his service record, an item which ALL potential employers demand to see, and never give him a job that amounts to more than some menial minimum wage position.

Is sexual conduct always inappropriate in the military if it is between those of different rank?

No, it is not. However, it is ALWAYS improper between instructors and students. It is ALWAYS improper between any couple where there is a supervisory or command relationship. It is ALWAYS improper between an officer and an enlisted person unless they are married to each other. It is ALWAYS improper if there is any possiblity it creates a conflict of interest in anything related to the unit's or military's mission. In these cases, under military law, it is illegal and a crime that is guaranteed to end your career. Criminal charges, depending on conviction, could be the same as a civilian felony conviction and you would lose your civil rights forever, just like any civilian felon.

It is improper if it is adultery or fornication. In the military, sex outside of marriage, with someone else's spouse or, if married, someone who is not your spouse is still a serious crime, and could be equvalent to a felony conviction if charged and convicted. If you are in the military and you get a female military person pregnant who is not your wife, you can be found guilty of a crime, possibly equivalent to a felony. The reason for these military laws is because sex and pregnancies as just described, destroy morale, command authority and impartiality in supervision and command decisions. They make personnel unsuitable or unavailable for duty. Welcome to the laws for the military.

This TSgt, for fraternizing (i.e. having a social relationship) with a trainee and for seeking to establish a sexual relationship with another, was severly punished. He never accused of, charged with or convicted of assaulting anyone or coercing any sexual relationship with anyone. This would be the same as a civilian employee of a company asking one of the company interns out, suggesting a romantic relationship and possibly having a close friendship, possibly informal dating (i.e. dinner, drinks or a movie) with another intern. Companies don't even remotely punish employees who do that with the severity of what the military did to this former NCO.

For what he did, he was demoted 3 rank and pay grades. His pay is cut in half. He lost his Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) appointment and will never get it back. He now has zero authority or rights/responsibilites or perks that go with an NCO appointment. He will lose his security clearance, if he had one, and will not get another one. He will be disqualified from a huge number of positions in the Air Force, including all the ones requiring a clearance or requiring that he work in any place where he could come into contact with any kind of trainee.

In a normal four-year initial enlistment, a USAF member that behaves will achieve Airman First Class (A1C, this sergeants new rank) at 16 months service. As an A1C, he is well under the rank requirements for retention at 14 or more years of service. Promotions from A1C to the next rank, Senior Airman (SrA) require the recommendation of enlistee's commander. He is unlikely to ever get such a recommendation.

With this conviction, it is inconceivable that he will be allowed to reenlist to serve long enough to ever collect a retirement. He can't quit the military before the end of his current enlistment. The sentence didn't discharge him. He is required to serve the rest of his current enlistment, which will be whatever is left of his current four or six-year enlistment, after which, he will be involuntarily discharged. For the rest of his curent enlistment, he will assigned only the least responsible jobs and will never supervise anyone again. He is not promotable and will not receive any training for any kind of career development, but only that which is mandated for what he will do. He has effectively turned into what in the civilian world would be a day-laborer in a work-release program.

If, for some reason, he manages to finish to 20 years, his retirement will be 50% of the average of his highest three years. Normally that is the last three years of service, but, in his case, it will wouldn't be higher than retiring as an E-5 or E-6 since he will never get promoted to a senior NCO enlisted rank/paygrade. If, by some miracle for him, he gets to stay long enough to retire at 20 years, his retirement wil be less than social security at the maximum rate.

He will probably get a general discharge instead of an honorable one. His conviction will be considered a federal criminal conviction in the civilian world. ANY discharge other than an honorable one will create difficulty in getting a job. When he is discharged, his DD-214 military record will not show the conviction, but a background check that almost every employer does will. EVERY employer asks if you did military service. If you lie, your background check will reveal the lie and you won't get hired or you will get immediately fired. If you tell the truth, they will demand a copy of the DD-214 that shows the discharge type and codes (there's two types of copies, one that shows this and one that doesn't, but employers know this too and ALWAYS want the one that shows the discharge type and codes). His DD-214 will show his discharge type and the discharge codes that go with it. Every employer knows what the codes mean and will figure out what happened. His final rank at A1C after 14 or more years of service on the DD-214 is a dead giveaway that he was seriously demoted for some reason which would almost certainly be for a crime.

The sum total of everything is very severe and will severely affect him for the rest of his life. All for having an inappropriate friendship with one trainee and coming on to another one.

I have had many women supervisors or bosses that I got along with and there was no hanky-panky , only professional work ethics. a f. As i said, I perdicted that if you have men and women work aboard ship, especially out at sea, there will be the 'secret meetings 'in some non used compartment below decks and as the saying goes, "one day or night of pleasure can cause a swollen abdoman nine months later." And, that has happened and will continue to happen. It is only natural and can't be denied. The miltary is suppose to be structured with disclipine, but sometimes that disclipine takes a turn and then you have this. And there is going to be more of it. No doubt about that. And then changes will have to take place for the better.

when a man unfairly takes advantage of a woman (or child or anyone else), we will hold him accountable. who even uses the term "hussy" anymore? wow. you've proven yourself to be quite the tough guy, posting snarky comments about women on the internet.

Ha, I knew it wouldn't take long for a post like Death Rider's...blaming the victim... it usually happens by a man who is a predator and rapist....so good that you revealed yourself for who and what you are.

I have worked for beautiful women and not so beautiful women, I must admit I did have sexual thoughts about the good looking ones but I had enough sense to realise the consequences of approaching them about it. I guess I will never understand why these people jeopardize their whole lives for what probably is a 60 second pleasure. It really makes no sense at all. I am sorry for the young ladies these men took advantage of but I am also aware of the fact women do use their sexuality to advance their goals if necessary. Also my personal belief is that women have no business in the military, period.

Hey Bro is this the R-Tard?

@There is NO Light... - You must be a man-hater you skanky gutter sl*t. Who the hell are you to even ask questions to anyone here about where they have been and what they have seen. BTW you pathetic idiot...women do the same things men do as instructors and some even worse. One example, a military girl tried three times to kill her husband with a pipe bomb, so she could pocket the money and be rid of him. All three times failed, but not the time when he left to go to work and took multiple rounds in the chest from her boyfriend as she watched. You can ask any SEABEE from the California area, they can tell you. So, take your snarky comments and the same light you use to show your gerbils how to find Limmewinks and stick it!!!!

TSSB!!!!

OH sh*t... i did not even see this post.

tz-3189354

Ha, I knew it wouldn't take long for a post like Death Rider's...blaming the victim... it usually happens by a man who is a predator and rapist....so good that you revealed yourself for who and what you are.

Uh, hey TZ - where is his comment did it say anything about rape being predatory? He mentioned he did a chick on a ship. In fact, he told me that story several times over the years. It was on a missle elevator on the USS....not going to give the ship name, but yeah, men and women do have sex underway. So, TZ you dumbass inbred POS...before you start pointing your butt picking fingers at anyone, read the comments!!! You should have a stain on your daddy's backseat.

They want to be just like the CO lowlifes!

Ya know Robert, I as well I am sure many current and former NCO members of the military as well take personal offense to your ignorant comment. Since you more than likely did not or have not served this country in that capacity I don’t feel it gives you the right to slander those of us that did and have. If you did serve then you were more than likely were what is known as a SLUG and got nowhere in the ranks and you must have an axe to grind with those of who did. There are cases like this going on every day in the civilian work force. How many women have slept their way to the top or the number of male SLUGS who took part in it GOD only knows. It’s not as though a female SLUG is going to readily make it known she slept her way into the firm or to a position. It is also unlikely that the guy or guys she did it with will make it known also. So “STOW IT!” Or, if you prefer, “STUFF IT!”

Being a former USAF NCO at no time would I consider myself a "low life" for what I was Doing!

G. Gordon...another one who blames the victim. It must make you feel very righteous and proud to be such a scumbag.

Hey tz or whatever your name is, mine is Gary Gordon. Unlike you I am not afraid to use my real name; ya want my cell # Skippy. For the record slick, you obviously do not do English well; if you did then you would realize that NOWHERE did I or am I blaming the victim or victims in this particular case involving the AF. I simply stated that the same thing is going on every day in the civilian work force. I also commented on the fact that a lot of females have and do use their equipment to get what they want and it has been that way since way before Cleopatra and Mark Antony; if you cannot accept the truth then that is your problem. I have a daughter myself who is grown with two children; my wife passed away three years ago after 26 yrs. and gracing me with a daughter (my first born) as well as a son. I didn't beat the wife and kids during our 26 years and our children growing up. And I did not take advantage of any females while I served in the Navy; in fact, I made it a point not to fraternize with or date the females I served with during my time, especially a subordinate. And make no mistake; I turned down more than the cat has tail during my tour of duty. I served six years onboard two separate submarines and a short time on shore duty in our Navy; I had planned to make it thirty because I liked it, no I loved it. The all to frequent forty hour days and the months at sea were simply part of the JOB, not to mention the fact that even though you had leave on the books and had not been state side for a couple of years to see your family and having it all set up to go home then have it cancelled due to “NEEDS OF THE NAVY” So no, it was not about the money or even the swell treatment or pat on the back you sometimes received. If you have not been there then it gives you no right to judge or criticize those that have. Unfortunately I was injured and discharged on a medical. It was not what I wanted but I got over it eventually. It took a while; at the time of my discharge my back was half shot and my left leg was the size of my arm due to being in a cast for almost six months. And as some others have mentioned here, if it had been for the money I never would have went in the first place; I gave up an $8.00 per hour job in Dallas, TX to go jump on “Das Boot” and that was almost forty years ago. So in conclusion, I see you are one of those that wish to enjoy the freedom this country provides due to our military as long as you do not have to contribute to the effort. People like you make me sick; so grab you’re cup of that overly sweet crap you call coffee and thump out some more on your key board. I am glad you have that privilege; but don’t ever forget Skippy that it is and was a few what you want to call low life’s that made and make it possible for you to be able to do so.

Being a former USAF NCO I wish to apologise for the actions of some against you!

Shadow, how do you go from an Air Force issue down to sandusky? Damn liberal.

I am resentful that morons from Penn State stand by a university that not only knew a child molester was among them, but actually set this guy up in his own foundation for little boys and gave him full run of the facility AFTER they witnessed an act of molestation. Believe me that story makes me just as sick as this one does!!

Big retirement plan? He most likely will be retiring as an E3--look the pay up-it's public information. While you are looking it up look up the pay rates for gov't employees. You have a warped vision of what gov't employees make! Although the pay scale goes from $20,000 a year to $147,800 a year. Keep in mind that the majority of gov't workers are NOT GS 15s! The majority of gov't workers make approximately the same in retirement as someone on Social Security and the gov't workers paid into their program at a higher rate! The only advantage they get for years of low paid SERVICE to their country is their health insurance is partially paid. Turn off the Faux News!

Mike - apparently you don't know a lot about the military. He was reduced in grade from E-6 to E-3. Under the "High-3" rule, he would only receive 50% of his base pay based on an average of the last 36 months prior to retirement. He just went from $3496/mo to $1981/mo due to the reduction in rank.

In all likelihood he may end up being administratively discharged anyway as he has 14 years in and as an E-3 will be (if not already) hitting the high year of tenure mark. You can't stay past that point. His career is effectively over and the 30 day confinement I believe shows up as a federal conviction (I'm not entirely certain on that for cases of "confinement").

REtirement pay is based on highest rank ever held not rank at time of discharge. I know of a full bird that retired as an AB...With bird pay....read the rules....

When I was in Sex between an Instructor and a student was sexual misconduct Period! Even if she was of age, took place off duty, off base, consensual, and as described to myself even if you two are in "love" it was still sexual misconduct period no if ands or buts. Maybe he received a "lighter" sentence for there was no rape or assault involved and was consensual but is still misconduct.

wow death rider, you really hate women. such snarky little comments. is that how a honorable adult man behaves? or perhaps you're just the typical ex-military baby boomer white trash 1% motorcycle club wannabe that only picks on women or others he perceives weak. from behind the safety of his keyboard, of course

Paul - it was more than a "slap on the wrist" as his military career has effectively ended. Yes, the punishment could have been more harsh but the jury of his peers made the decision.

See my post #14.2. He essentially will have done 14 years for nothing and it will follow him the rest of his life (employers look at the DD-214).

wrong paul, you are comparing apples and oranges. Everyone in the military is an adult. on college campuses professors many times sleep with students. When caught nothing happens. These are consenting adults, not rapists. I guess you are still hung up on the military.

Damn Bro, long post?!!? They must have struck that nerve again. LOL!! Your a p*ssy!!! Buy me a beer and tell me your sob story later tonight. Nice artistry with the hand thing...you got too much time, I sent you that a while back. LOL!!!

@Gerbil Light - LOL!!! You are an idiot! Do you need a little huggy wuggy from your drunk loser daddy? I like when people think they are safe behind their keyboard. OOOOOOOOh scary to think the boogey man is typing. LOL!!! I do not even know where to begin, but my Bro covered it. I have to get back to working on the bike, but Light socket has NO IDEA!! TSSB!!!

PS - So what's wrong with white trash again? I always like to hear stories about us!!!! Legends Bro!!!

@DeathRider - You are correct in your assertion that a DD-214 doesn't show any "disciplinary actions" however it does have codes for characterization of the discharge.I would expect something to be coded on his since he was sentenced to confinement. The best he could get, I'm guessing, is a general discharge.

It's been a long time since I've seen ASCII art actively used in a post. ;->

The rape of a student by a teache is NOT even remotely what occurred here. He was accused and charged with nothing more than "fraternizing", which means a social relationship, with one trainee, and with seeking to establish a romantic or sexual relationship with another trainee. Basically, he was spending time in social places with one trainee and hit on another trainee, all of who were adults in the military and who he never coerced into anything. He was never accused of or charged with rape, attempted rape, assault, sexual harassment or any form of violent or aggressive behavior or coercing a trainee into a relationship they did not want. With the second trainee, he took no for an answer.

He was convicted of having a (mutually entered into) a social relationship with one trainee that was improper because he was an instructor and she a trainee, and of seeking to have (some kind of social advances) another consenting but improper relationship, possibly sexual, with another trainee. Both he and the trainees knew that these relationships are forbidden by standing orders. Everyone instructor and trainee at Lackland AFB Basic Military Training or at any USAF Technical School knows these orders, they are very simple and very clear.

The sum total of what will happen to him because of his 30 days confinement and reduction of 3 ranks/pay grades with his 14 years of service is severe and is more severe than what would happen in most corporate or civilian environments. The military, police and other uniformed services all impose far more restrictions on what a person can do than ordinary civilian life and certain transgressions of those restrictions will be dealt with more severly than equivalent transgressions in civilian life.

When I was in Rank and Pay Grade where separate, E-4 was the pay grade of what you received, Sgt was your rank and also an NCO. There was the Pay Grade of E-4 but two ranks, One was Senior Airmen and the other was SGT, Difference Sgt was an NCO but both E-4 pay grade. USAF

The AF doesn't have an "honorary E-10". The CMSAF is still an E-9 (and paid as such). That may be something unique to the Navy.

I was not aware that the AF operated that way, thanks for sharing that, love to learn new stuff. In the Navy an E-4 is a Third Class Petty Officer; that would be a Corporal in the Army. It is the same in The Corps; however, in The Corps an E-3 does have the title of Lance Corporal but he is not a corporal. In the Navy an E-4-5-6 is simply whatever they are. As I posted earlier for those that do not know and asked, an E-6 over 6 yrs. of service will draw more pay than an E-6 over 4 years of service. Subsequently, he may or may not be senior in RANK. That depends on the date each was advanced to that pay grade. A person in an advanced rating such as some of the weapons Rates and especially the nuclear power program can come out of school as an E-5 with only two years of service. A sailor that started at the bottom would have had to have had three years TOS (Time-In-Service) before he was even eligible for advancement to E-5. So the two may have been in boot camp together; one went to an advanced school and signed a six year contract to get the schooling and the E-5; the other only signed up for four and went to a lesser advanced Rate with no advanced technical school. A little over three years later the same two people may be E-5 but the guy that got it “PUSH BUTTON” got it in two years, the other had to wait three years to be advanced to that level. He/She would also have had to spend one year in the E-4 pay grade before getting it also. Of course it changes from time to time; shortly prior to when I enlisted during the 70’s the Navy did not have the TOS (Time In Service) requirement for the enlisted Ranks. I have no idea how it operates today; my Rate of Torpedomans Mate was waxed out in 2005. In the surface fleet they were converted to Gunners Mate; in the Submarine Force they were converted to Machinist Mate-Weapons. I suppose if I were in there today instead of being a TM1/SS I would maybe be a TMW/SS. Before somebody says something stupid about the Nazis SS, is your Submarine Qualification designator and signifies you are authorized to where your set of dolphins by being Submarine Service Qualified. A submariner who has not qualified submarines yet carries an SU behind his Rate designating that he/she is submarine designated.

USAF took three things into account for things like promotions, Rank, Time in Service and Time in Grade when I was in.

The USAF does not allow summary courts martial. Although the UCMJ still provides for summary courts in the military, and other branches may use them, they are unauthorized by mandatory policy in the USAF and have been unauthorized for decades. It is a sensible policy. It eliminates the possibility that a commanding officer could unilaterally take revenge or retribution on an enlisted person or impose unduly harsh sentences for very minor infractions. The USAF convenes only special or general courts martial which, unlike the summary court, require the military equivalent of an arraignment or indictment. Commanders can, for certain offenses, choose offer an enlisted person non-judicial punitive actions under Article-15 of the UCMJ. The enlisted person may accept or decline the offered Article-15 action, in which case, a decision on whether to convene a court martial will be made.

In the military, pay and rank are not disjoint. A rank always has a corresponding pay grade. For a period of a few years, the USAF had two ranks at pay grade E-4, one was an Non-commissioned Officer rank, Sergeant (Sgt), the other an ordinary enlisted rank, Senior Airman (SrA). The US Army does this with specialist grades and NCO grades. An NCO appointment confers legal rights, legal responsibilites and some perks that being ordinary enlisted does not, although the US Army treats specialists in the same grades as NCOs with the same perks that NCOs get in those grades. In the USAF, when SrA and Sgt both existed, as an E-4 it made a huge difference in your billet (where you were housed) and whether you could use or be a member of facilites reserved exclusively for NCOs. The USAF eliminated the Sgt rank, kept the SrA rank, and has no NCOs in grade E-4 anymore. A reduction in rank always results in the pay grade that goes with the new rank.

This former NCO's new rank, Airman First Class (A1C), is a severe demotion. Air Force members in their first four-year enlistments who behave themselves achieve A1C in 16 months. Initial six-year enlistments reach A1C much faster than four-year enlistees, but once they reach the next rank, Senior Airman (SrA), they are a SrA for quite a while before becoming an NCO as a Staff Sergeant, USAF (SSgt). That's the usual point at which initial four-year enlistees begin to catch up with initial six-year enlistees in rank. It took this former NCO 14 years and about 3 enlistments to reach TSgt. He now makes half what he used to make in pay. He has also lost any possibility for retirement which would require a minimum of 20-years service. He has this conviction on his service record and he is way under the rank required for retention and reenlistment at 14 years of service. He will be ineligable to reenlist for both those reasons and will never reach minimum time-in-service (20 years) for retirement.

You are so correct Robert; when I used the term UNIFORM I meant it in context that it is uniform as far as the maximum punishment a commanding officer may inflict on a person in the ranks. He/She has the power to throw the book at you, give you the minimum, or something in-between just as a civilian judge does in a civilian court. Since I am still running my pie-hole on this subject please allow me to state that when I used the term Honorary E-10 for The Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy I meant that as such. Outside of the 3^rd star he or she wears on his Rating Badge.They still get paid as an E-9 as was mentioned for the AF. It is purely a respect thing same as it is with referring to the captain of a naval vessel as captain even though he may only be a Lieutenant or Commander or whatever. In the Submarine Force most boat captains achieve that level and given a boat once they attain the rank of 0-5 or Commander, if they are going to get their own command at all, yet you still refer to him as Captain. We don’t do as the Germans did during WWII where all or most of their boat captains were Lieutenant and referred to as Captain Lieutenant. They are simply referred to as Captain. Also in the Navy there is the rank of Commodore; however it is purely an honorary title; the person holding the rank is simply a Captain (0-6) and paid as such yet he/she is addressed as Comodore. I apologize if I stated it incorrectly or confused anyone one the E-10 thing. I will close this one by sharing another honorary tradition in the navy and fairly limited to the Submarine Force and other elite units. On "Das Boot" is customary and respectful for a member of the crew to salute the Captain the first time he meets him during the day. After that it is too crowded, we are too busy, and don’t have time for all of that hogwash. I believe I heard it stated during my early days that the Navy was 90% tradition and 10% BS thrown in for good measure.

Thanks Dom!

OOO- RAH DOM! I don't believe it could have been stated better.

I partially agree, because I follow your sentiment but I am not a military judge. Back when I was in the military, not only did someone receive more confinement than this, but they also had half a months pay with held for a minimum of two months...on top of the reduction in rank...and for what, you ask? For something as silly as a letter that wasn't placed in the envelope properly before being sent to another command. As I strive to be a perfectionist naturally, I was FORTUNATE to avoid any punishment at all (if only you knew how easy it was to get in trouble over nothing back then).

Today it seems our military is getting paid more than ever as well as being coddled, in comparison. It certainly can be said that this individual got off lightly. It's all politics.