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Subscribe to RSSA former Boy Scout turned in his Eagle Scout medal to protest the organization's discriminatory policies. WCSH's Mike DeSumma reports.
After publishing a story Thursday on Eagle Scouts who have returned their medals, badges and other regalia to protest the Boy Scouts of America policy banning gays and lesbians, we received more than 100 emails from current and former Scouts, many of them quite emotional. A selection of those messages is included here.
“I am an Eagle Scout from 1961 in Wyoming and my son is an Eagle Scout from 1995 in Arizona. We both agree with the BSA in not allowing gays into their organization. That is their constitutional right to have parameters and requirements for their membership. The LGBT community is the antithesis of what Scouting stands for. It is their right to protest and disagree. But the power of a few should not be able to change the traditions and history of the scouting movement for everyone else. It they don't like it, maybe some other group would better accept their beliefs, ideals and lifestyles.”
-- Dale Hunt, 64, Tempe, Ariz., Eagle Scout
“I am very proud of earning the rank of Eagle Scout, and I am also proud of the BSA for sticking to their guns in the culture wars. I am saddened by those who feel it is necessary to return their Eagle badge but they certainly have the right to do so while this is still a free country. The BSA is a completely private organization and is free to make a stand for their values. It is sad to see so many other organizations abandoning their values on the altar of political correctness. What part of the Scout Oath: “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the scout law; To help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight” do they not get?
-- Roger M. Devaney, 50, Spokane, Wash., Eagle Scout
Courtesy of Jad Davenport
Jad Davenport, who earned the rank of Eagle in 1983, says he sent his medal back to the Boy Scouts of America on Thursday, Aug. 2, after reading a story on NBCNews.com.
“I earned my Eagle Scout in 1983. After reading your story I pulled the badge - one of my most prized possessions - from my safe and with a heavy heart mailed it off to the Boy Scouts. … I only regret not doing it sooner.”
-- Jad Davenport, 46, Denver, Colo., Eagle Scout
“I earned my Eagle Scout award in 1965 in Iowa at the age of 14. My card is signed by President Lyndon B. Johnson. My Court of Honor was attended by my parents, my four grandparents, my scout leaders and fellow scouts, my teachers and coaches, my Lutheran minister, and special friends of my parents. It was a very big deal in a small Iowa town in the mid-1960s. I truly loved my Scouting experience -- and the arduous pathway I traversed in earning my Eagle. Yesterday, I returned my Eagle award to the Boy Scouts of America. I was immensely proud of this achievement for 47 years. No longer. My children are proud of my humble gesture in returning the award. My dad, had he lived to see this, probably would have thought I am crazy. I would have assured him that it is the right and honorable thing to do -- at least for me.”
-- Steve Barghols, 61, Oklahoma City, Okla., Eagle Scout
"I achieved the rank of Eagle Scout in 1964 in Atlanta, Georgia. Since then, my career has taken me from working in the White House under President Jimmy Carter to a decade of selling computers for a very conservative Atlanta based 'good old boy' corporation. Since 1991, my life-partner and I have run an LGBT Community Center in the town of Rehoboth Beach, Delaware which is often referred to as the 'nation’s summer capitol.' In all those years, no matter how upset I may have been with the national leadership of the Boy Scouts of America, I never considered returning my Eagle Scout badge. Even though I was 'gay as a goose' when I earned it, I did in fact earn it, and there’s no way they are getting it back. I only hope other eagle scouts feel as proud of their achievement as I do of mine."
-- Steve Elkins, 62, Rehoboth Beach, R.I., Eagle Scout
“I applaud the decision from the BSA!! My opinion, if the BSA had ruled the other way ... I would be returning my Eagle Scout Award. And I am confident that my immediate family that contains 5 additional Eagle Scouts would also each consider the same action.”
-- Steven Homer, 44, Dublin, Ohio, Eagle Scout and Scoutmaster
Courtesy of Chris Wren
“As for my personal stance with the scouts, I am torn. In fact, to see the divide publicly is one thing, but I see the divide in my family as well. My father (the first eagle in the family) is a firm supporter of the ban, he has very strict Christian views on homosexuality and frowns upon it. He is in support of the ban by the BSA. I, however, am on the other end of the spectrum. I believe that a person’s sexuality should not affect their membership in this organization. It in no way affects the boys, or the teachings of the organization, and helps support their ideals of “support your community.” I have my medal and certificate framed and hanging on my wall in my office, and many people have complimented me on it. But with all the controversy surrounding the decision by the BSA, I have been considering turning my medal in as well. To date, I have not made a decision, because I am weighing the ramifications of my decision, but I do not support the BSA in this matter. This is a topic that has torn me deeply not only because of the organization, but because of the issues within my family.”
-- Chris Wren, 36, Dothan, Ala., Eagle Scout
“Although I didn't get to Eagle Scout, I was a Boy Scout in my teen years and earned many medals. It is a good organization for boys to belong to while growing up. They help build good values and leadership. I support their decision on the gay ban. The Boy Scouts have a strong tie with religion. It doesn't mean the church or the Boy Scouts wouldn't help a gay in need, just that they don't support that life style. I feel that it is a person's right to return their medals, but it is a shame to turn in symbols of your own personal achievements. But I don't think a person can be a leader in an organization without supporting the policies of that organization.”
-- Randy Arrington, 54, Oklahoma (hometown not specified), Boy Scout
“It pains me to see so many Eagle Scouts returning their badges, but it brings me some relief to know that they are receiving such attention for doing so. Although I still struggle with that decision, I have chosen to keep my badge and speak out as a current Eagle Scout. I am proud of my accomplishments as an Eagle Scout, but I am ashamed of the affiliation that it has with BSA. Their policy tarnishes what so many have worked so hard to achieve, and, some day soon, I hope that they will end their policies of discrimination based both on sexual orientation and religion.”
-- Justin Bickford, 32, Gainesville, Fla., Eagle Scout
“My 14 yr old son was to become a Life Scout at his next advancement. After he heard about the vote and the ban on gays, he said that he was done with the Scouts. This was his own decision and his reason was simple: 'How can I be a member of a group that says that I'm supposed to accept and help everyone....well everyone who isn't gay. It's not cool to change the rules so you can get what you want.' Losing Scouting is a very sad event for our family, but I think my son has already learned how to be: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent and he will have no problems living to help serve others....regardless of their race, creed, color, and sexual preferences. Returning his badges is one thing but choosing to cut his ties with the organization because he wants to stand for what he believes in, makes me proud! No longer yours in Scouting.”
-- Amy Francis-Bacon, 42, Cedarburg, Wis. Her son is Ethan Francis, 14.
“I received my Eagle back in 1969 along with several palms. I've forgotten a lot in the years since, but many of the pledges I still remember. One of which went: On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. Sounds to me that a lot of those that said this pledge did so without meaning it and therefore did not deserve the award in the first place. Doing my duty to God and keeping myself morally straight then meant and still means the same thing; regardless of how some chose to try and change it to fit their current ideas and desires.”
-- Eris Gilliard, 59, Orlando, Fla., Eagle Scout
“As an Eagle Scout of 17 years, I am seriously considering sending my badge back as well. Boy Scouts have been hijacked by people who have an agenda. As a father, I have been struggling with what to do when my son reaches the age to become a Tiger Cub. Boy Scouts teaches some valuable life lessons and skills that no other organization out there can touch, but I can't willingly let my son be guided by the misinformed. Four parts of the Scout law are helpful, friendly, courteous and kind. Boy Scouts of America violates these four points by allowing intolerance within their ranks. It's hypocritical and sickening. Eagle Scouts are the "elite" product of what Boy Scouts of America can produce. It is our responsibility to represent the face of the organization and to lead by example. I applaud fellow Eagle Scouts that are taking a stand against Boy Scouts of America.”
-- Kevin Deal, 31, McKinney, Tex., Eagle Scout
“I'm also an Eagle scout, doggone proud of earning it, and doggone proud of the Boy Scouts of America for continuing their stance against gay membership in the Boy Scouts. I've been involved in the Scouting program for over forty years, why do I continue to volunteer as an adult leader - because I believe in the values taught by Scouting! We need more groups and individuals in this country that aren't afraid to take a stand in favor of traditional, time honored values. I, like thousands of others, was more than happy to participate in the "Chick-Fil-A" appreciation day yesterday to show my support for a business that has taken a stand in this matter, a stand that I believe is the right one. Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not anti-gay or homophobic, etc., nor am I deeply religious ..... but I believe in traditional makeup of a family, meaning a mother and a father that are married and living under the same roof, raising their children to be responsible adults.”
-- Darrell L. Brock, 55, Daytona Beach, Fla., Eagle Scout
“I believe that the decision on Lesbians and Gays was wrong for many reasons. I have read a lot of resignation letters from Scouts, most of which were very moving and elegant. Many of them explained their decision using the Scout Law. Mine is very simple. A Scout is reverent -- We are all God’s creatures. I earned the Rank of Life -- I could not pass the swimming merit badge hence no Eagle. I have been active at the Unit, District, and Council level for many years and was recognized with the Order of the Arrow Vigil Honor. I am also a member of the Girl Scouts having served on the local Council Board of Directors as well as assisting my wife with her troop. My son earned Eagle and my daughter earned her Gold Award. My wife was a Girl Scout Leader throughout my daughter’s journey. We have been a Scouting family for many years. I recently resigned as a Boy Scout and from all my current positions. I believe there are many others who are not Eagle who have also taken the same position. I believe that Scouts and Scouters voting with their feet is the only message that will make a difference in policy change. It will happen someday; the sooner the better.”
-- Robert Walters, 64, Charlottesville, Va., Life rank
“I am an Eagle Scout from 1990 and am very proud of my time in the Scouts and what that time was able to do for me as a person. … I am very much in support of gay-rights and continue to be disappointed at BSA's choice to ban gays. I really do wish they would change their policy, as many other groups have, solely in recognition of society having changed since the organizations' founding. Just because they as a private organization can make this choice doesn't mean they have to, and it doesn't do any good not to be open. BSA leadership must know this. To me the policy runs counter to everything I learned from Scouting and my interpretation of the ideals I spent so much time memorizing and living by. I also think that it will contribute to a downward trend of participation in Scouting because people won't want to be actively affiliated with an organization that discriminates. That makes me sad. … I won't be turning in my medals. That is because I earned them with a clear conscience by working with leaders who weren't bigots and taught us what it meant to be free, e.g. not using our freedoms to restrict the rights of others. Eagle Scouts are a rare breed and many have gone on to great personal heights because of the experience. I think the BSA policy dishonors us all. Pressure to disassociate from the organization runs the risk of marginalizing the Eagle Scout honor and when that happens Scouting is finished. I hope the BSA comes to its senses soon!”
-- Jason Phelps, 39, Londonderry, N.H., Eagle Scout
“I am a currently registered scouter, and have been involved with scouting for the last fifteen years. The BSA is a private organization and has the right to establish their own policies. Those wishing to join a scouting program that includes homosexuals can easily do so by joining Adventure Scouts.”
-- Jim Brown, 49, Dallas, Tex., two sons and son-in-law are Eagle Scouts
“Until I joined the Boy Scouts, I had never excelled at anything in my life. But I loved scouting; I loved the camping trips, the outdoors, canoeing, the entire experience. And I did well in it. … By the time I started high school, I had changed. I had served successfully in leadership roles, I had earned the highest rank in scouting, and not coincidentally, I became an excellent student with nearly straight A marks. I had self-confidence, and I am convinced it was primarily my experience in scouting that set me on a course of success and achievement that continued long past my scouting days. … It was not until long after my scouting days were over that I learned gay people were not allowed to participate in scouting. I was very disappointed to learn this - I felt that BSA was clearly failing to live up to the high ideals of the organization that had been instrumental in shaping the person I had become. I felt a sense of shame that BSA was taking a stance that I regarded as discriminatory and immoral. I see no benefit at all, only harm that has resulted from this misguided policy. I believe the BSA has fallen greatly in stature and esteem is a direct result of how they have handled this issue. Most of all, I am saddened at the impact the policy has on gay youth, who have a hard enough time coping with a world that condemns them for just being what they are. These are exactly the kind of boys who would stand to gain the most from the positive, character-building experience that scouting could be for them. Instead, BSA's stance only serves to reinforce the notion that it's OK to discriminate against gay people, that gay people are somehow less worthy than the rest of us. I find such thinking appalling.”
-- Eric Last, 53, San Bruno, Calif., Eagle Scout
“I must say that I am appalled that anyone who has earned the rank of Eagle Scout not to mention any scout would even think of allowing gays to be a member of the Boy Scouts of America. I am a firm believer that people can choose whatever lifestyle they want but if they choose to be gay then they should be ready to take whatever consequences that stem from that decision. … The bottom line is an organization that is founded on teaching young boys to be responsible young men should not allow gays to be a part of that process. The choice to be gay is theirs to make but then accept the consequences.”
-- Arthur F. Schultz, 52, Newberry, Mich., Boy Scout
“Robert Baden-Powell, founder of the Boy Scouts, offered his Scouts these words in 1945, which would become his final message: “Try to leave this world a little better than you found it.” Given the wisdom and compassion he evidenced, and his high regard for all living things, I imagine a call for respect, understanding, and the eradication of prejudice and bigotry were implicitly contained in his message."
-- Vance A. Taylor, 60, Madison, Conn., Boy Scout
If you are a current or former member of the Boy Scouts and would like to share your thoughts on the membership policy, you can email the reporter at miranda.leitsinger@msnbc.com
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Leave a Comment:
NBC is stirring the pot and continueing to publish a rehashed story. Move on will ya!
Why? Don't like hearing the truth? Do you think if you ignore fear and hatred it will magically go away? Do you not want this out there so that people are unaware of the narrow-mindedness of the BSA and, from some of the ignorant letters from those backing the BSA's inane policies, the narrow-mindedness of many Scouts and Scouters in general?
I love the one from the idiot that states that if a person "chooses" to be gay that he has to deal with the repercussions? Seriously? Did he "choose" to be male? Unbelievable ignorance. He should send back his Eagle simply because he does not deserve it.
Where in the charter of the BSA does it make it OK for them to discriminate? It's fine if they want to tout that garbage about being a private organization that can do what it wants, but it needs its Congressional charter revoked if it cannot adhere to our country's laws. Let 'me be private, but revoke the charter - then they can be the KKK Youth for all I care.
looks like you're the only one "hating" here.Take a chill pill and don't let what PRIVATE organizations decide is policy, keep you up at night.In other words....GET A LIFE!
+1 Eagle Scout Vote for the BSA doing as they wish.
Left Wing- Just because the BSA doesn't open it's doors to homosexuality doesn't mean that they fail educate the scouts on equality and rights. Quite frankly the scouting movement pushes the concept of self determination, self value, and the principles of God and Country. Within those teachings comes a respect for your elders, your community, and your countrymen regardless of political affiliation, ethnicity, gender, or persuasion.
Why do I get feeling that this is not so much about queer boys getting in the BSOA, as much as it is a campaign for queer Scout Masters getting in.That would be like letting a straight (normal) guy work in the girls college locker room.Wouldn't be a good idea at all!I shudder to think of some guy taking a little boy to the potty, that likes looking at penis.THERE I SAID IT!!!Not hate, just f**king reality!
Wow, I'M accused of hate? You folks would be funny if you weren't so sad.
And don't lecture me on what Scouting is. I was a Boy Scout. I was also a leader, up to the council level. I KNOW what goes on in Scouting, so don't hand me any of your sanctimonious crap. While National goes all "honor" on everybody, they, through their local councils, fudge membership numbers, discriminate based on more than sexual preferences, violate their own Youth Protection guidelines, etc. Yeah, it's just terrible that some of you might get some gay on you...but here's a thought, and it's well beyond "get a life" - GROW UP.
If you feel this is all about the BSA adhering to religious principles, I have a couple of questions for you. What about the religions that don't have the homophobic attitudes I see displayed here? And, for you so-called "Christians", where in the Bible does Jesus speak out against homosexuality and where does He say it is OK for you to make all these judgments you all seem to think is just fine? I think He MIGHT mention hypocrisy a couple of times, though.
Billy...you need help. Seriously.
No, it's not about religion, Left Wing, it's about abnormality. And yes I know, the urge is normal; but, the act is not (see any biology text). And you'd better get used to the fact that your're not going to force your agenda on anyone. Just go do what you're going to do; but do it in your bedroom, and get out of my face with it.
JoeNY-Are you serious? The Boy Scouts "educate the scouts on equality and rights"? I guess that would be the equality of others who believe only the way they do, or that only certain people are equal and right. Where's the badge for hypocrisy?
Left Wing Nut Job from your rantings I think you need to relearn some of those lessons the scouts tried to teach you. As far as the Bible it specifically says that Man shall not lie with Man as he does with woman. And remember Sodom and Gamorrah! Why do you think he destroyed them. If a private organization is not free to adhere to their beliefs who or what will be next. Yes I am a Christian, yes I believe in the bible and yes I have many dear friends who are gay. Just because one choses to believe what is written in GODS WORD, does not make us homophobes.
Spider, feel free to educate yourself. Homosexuality occurs naturally...and not just in humans. You could have looked this up pretty easily, but you probably already had your mind made up, right? And quit trying to enforce YOUR agenda on everyone else. Do you know what my agenda might be, by the way? Yeah, probably not.
@Just, I am not ranting, just stating facts. Try some.
You want to quote the Old Testament to me? OK. So, you are for plural marriage, correct? You also feel that it is perfectly fine to kill your child for mouthing off at you, true? I suppose you NEVER eat pork, shellfish, etc., right?
Your post WAS hypocritical. You are aware, are you not, that the Bible also says "judge not lest ye also be judged", as well as a multitude of other statements about making oneself the judge of others. Oh, forgot that part, huh? Convenient.
@LeftWing - you're acting like a jerk
Take these candyass faggots and dykes and send their ass to Afghanistan.
Why, because you disagree with me? You don't appreciate me turning other peoples' arguments against them? Ever seen anybody discriminated against yet failed to step up on their behalf? Gee, that would be against the spirit of Scouting, wouldn't it?
Yeah, I'm the jerk.
It's okay to hate faggots and dykes. Even their creator hates them as is shown at 1 Corinthians 6:10
Left Wing: An opinion is not agreeing with something or someone, Billy and all these other people have opinions as to the BSA's stance. You however are the only nut judgeing anyone... You stated Billy needs help, That is a judgement call Dr Nut. You, the Gov, Dr's and many others that feel they have all the answers and solutions for everyone else draw judgement to attempt to fix what they fill is wrong! The BSA is just stateing their opinion and not downing these people that have other beleifs. I don't agree with that lifestyle but know many people like that and have NO problem with them. They are good people that I just disagree with on one topic. Thanks to the USA I can live my way and they can live their's and it's not a problem unless one of us attempt to force feed their beleif on the other.. Understand!!!!
LeftWing, I actually respect you for challenging people and making your case. I truly do... but do it without insulting other people, questioning their intelligence, etc... that's all I'm saying.
Funny that they keep calling being gay a lifestyle. By their reasoning, being black, female, etc. is also a lifestyle. So, I guess a racist could claim that, when he refuses to hire a black man, he doesn't do it because he hates blacks. He just doesn't support their lifestyle choice to be black. When a man abuses his wife, he can claim he doesn't hate her for being a woman, but because he disagrees with her lifestyle choice to be one. Tell me, would courts rule in their favor if they made these kinds of claims?
But, as it stands, being Christian IS a lifestyle choice, and since I disagree with it, I reckon I'm free to discriminate against Christians. They did, after all, actually choose to be Christian, unlike lacks, women and gays, and my religious beliefs are that religion is wrong, so I'm free to refuse to hire Christians or people of any other religion if I so choose, right?
What's that? Federal antidiscrimination laws forbid me to discriminate on the basis of religion? It certainly does. And, more to the point, the way the laws are worded, they don't forbid discrimination based on the religion of those discriminated against, but based on religion, period, including the religion of the discriminator. So, if you discriminate against another person for any religious reason, even your own, you're in violation of antidiscrimination laws, lifestyle choice or not.
Scott, have you actually read any of Billy's posts? How about you, eph521? I understand both of you disagree with me, and that's just wonderful, but to say I am the only person passing judgment on here? The only one that questions others' intelligence? Seriously?
Yeah, let's just let folks spew all the hate speech they want, peppered with foul and offensive language. Good idea - that will certainly propel us forward.
Sorry we're not calling out every other person, but that still doesn't justify how you're saying things. Take the high road.
Here we go again. The militant gays attacking anyone and anything that espouses a belief or point of view that is contrary to their agenda. After all, according to the homo's, if you don't accept their ideology, you must be some kind of bigot or hater. It's their way or no way at all.
Those who would turn in their medals, etc. over this are simply cutting off their noses to spite their faces and ultimately it means nothing. But, if it makes them feel good….
Militant gays. Neat. Are they the ones in camouflage?
I'm sure it makes conservatives feel better when they can dismiss the struggle for equal rights as merely "political correctness." After all, conservatives fought against a long string of human rights issues including slavery, women's right to vote, civil rights, education equality, and voting rights. I suppose in the minds of many conservatives each of those issues was all about "political correctness," but for a lot of us it is much more than that.
eph521, the notion that oppressed people are obligated to be nice in how they confront their oppressors is more than a little obnoxious.
It's extremely frustrating that so many people are proud of their bigotry or in denial of it, and LWNJ is entirely justified in getting emotional about it.
Left wing nut job 1.21
No. They're the ones in high heels and lipstick.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
@Ash - sorry, I disagree. I don't see the need for name-calling and hateful statement. Insulting other people's intelligence. I'm actually surprised that you would try to justify that type of behavior. Calling gay people oppressed ... I think you're going too far. The BSA is not oppressing gays. Gays are free to start a scout group or join another organization that agrees with their beliefs - that's not oppression.
Eagle Scout, 1994, and proud of it.
Homosexuals are a minority, anyone disagree with that?
Def. minority: "a group differing, especially in race, religion, or ethnic background, from the majority of a population"
So, if the majority opposes the minority, why would the majority change their beliefs because of the few?
I'll make a deal with you, when you support other minorities being persecuted and killed for their beliefs, I will support you, but until you get over your self-serving agenda, you're on your own.
The Bible says lots of things, including how to treat your fellow human beings. I am frankly bored with you self righteous self-identified "Christians" who can't find enough in the New Testament Christian Bible to judge other people and have to seek out justification for your hate and bigotry in the Old Testament Jewish Bible. Isn't it interesting that the Jewish people are, by and large, much more accepting of other human beings than you fundamentalist Christians.
Every Sunday you go to church and talk about Christian love ..... is this your idea of love?
eph521, disagree all you want, but you're still making a worthless "tone argument". And I'm sorry you think that advocating the continued relegation of a group to second-class citizen status doesn't constitute "oppression".
It goes MUCH MUCH deeper than your statement.
WE JUST DON'T CARE IF YOU SEND YOUR CRAP BACK IN.
THAT'S ALL
Cactus Jack is trying to win bigots over to Christianity. I am not saying that all Christians are bigots .... not even close. But you do have your KKK, which calls itself a Christian organization, your Westboro Baptist Church, and lots of obviously hateful self-proclaimed Christians posting on Newsvine.
BSA can run their club anyway they want. Just because some of you do not like it does not mean your right, or have any right to tell them what to do. If they want gays in the club, so be it... if they do not want any gays in the club, then so be it. I wonder how many gay oriented clubs are out there that don't let straight members in simply because they are straight. We never here about this, I wonder why !
I'll give you the right to decide my life and my sexuality when I get the right to decide yours. Now let's grow up and stop worrying about who puts their pee pee in who's whoha. We have more important things to worry about. God made them gay. He made them in his image. Judge not. Your book warns.
Roger
In case the principle of free speech escapes you, the people who oppose the BSA on this issue have every right to express their opinions, and that is the way entrenched medieval thinking and policies are eventually changed. Conservatives have a long history of opposing change toward equal treatment and equal rights, but they usually lose in the long run. People historically expressed their opinions about interracial marriage rights, education equality, voting rights, Jim Crowe laws, women's suffrage, and many, many other equality issues ...... the conservatives lost all of those battles and, eventually, they will lose this one as well. In the meantime, you have a right to your narrow-minded opinion as well. Go for it.
Yes, I do have that same right now don't I !!!!! And really, my narrow minded view ? I said nothing in favor for, or against what the gay community wants the BSA to do. I simply stated they have the right to decide, love it or leave it. Have a great Day !
Okay if it's okay for the Boy Scouts to ban gays because they are a private organization is it then okay for country clubs to ban women or minorities or for restaurants to refuse service to muslims?
Yes it is the same, exactly the same.
To Left Wing Nut Job...
I received my Eagle Scout award in 1971. The Scout Laws are as follows. A Scout is: Trustworthy Loyal Helpful Friendly Courteous Kind Obedient Cheerful Thrifty Brave Clean Reverent. When asked by the Board of Review "To become an eagle scout, one must be what?" My answer was "An Eagle Scout must be Clean." During my 5 years in scouting, on several occasions I was raped by the older kids in the Scouts. Some may have done it for kicks, others however were indeed Gay. Unless one has ever been a victim of rape, they would have no idea what it was like to hide the shame and embarrassment associated with it. I never mentioned it to anyone for fear of retaliation. I could have left scouting, but in many ways it became the most enjoyable times of my childhood and youth despite the episodes early on. Over time, the ones that were involved eventually left scouting. And I am glad to say, I did not have to share this distinguished award with any of those involved, and even more glad I was able to share it with 12 others who were not. My only comment about Gays and Scouting are this. I would not wish what happened to me on my worst enemies(should I have any). To subject young boys to this kind of behavior is CRIMINAL.
Anyone and everyone who thinks that being gay makes you a pedo should be locked up in psych wards.
I love how much attention this has received. It showed me that I really don't know anything about the BS/ES. I, like so many others, should have researched these organizations before trusting that they were inherently good. I very likely would have made the mistake of signing my son up, thinking it would be a good life experience for him. In fact, I was planning on it. I didn't realize they are so religious and discriminative. Didn't realize it had the backing of such religious extremists. I was obviously blind and very stupid for thinking these organizations help contribute to the better good of our nation.
YellaHammer,
Yes, rape is indeed a criminal act. That does not justify your implying (which you did by characterizing your closing comment about rape as a "comment about Gays and Scouting") that being gay makes anyone more likely to commit rape.
YellaHammer, since you addressed that specifically to me, I want you to know that I am sorry if you were actually raped by any older kids in Scouts. Sounds rather wild to me, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. It may interest you to know that pedophilia is not homosexuality and vice versa. It may also interest you to know that rape is not a sexual act, per se - it is one of power over another. If you WERE raped, however, you should have reported it. If I had been your Scoutmaster, I would have acted on it immediately, as would any good Scout leader. Your not reporting it would likely have resulted in others being abused. I'm not, by any means, condoning thosee that might have abused you, but your failure to report would, in essence, make you an accessory to any other attacks. If you made Eagle, I am rather certain you would understand that...and that would be criminal (your word, not mine).
Again, this has NOTHING to do with whether or not homosexuals of either gender should be allowed to participate in Scouting.
Billy, the only reason you are making statements like this is you probably agree with the ban on gay citizens in the Boy Scouts, and so, in your mind, the issue should no longer be discussed. I have the feeling you would be singing a different tune and speaking up if the decision didn't agree with your own beliefs. For the people that don't agree with this type of discrimination, discrimination that includes banning children no less, it is far from over.
Guess you missed the parts of your education about how and why our forefathers arrived in America? Persecution of minority religious belief was exactly why they came. The country you live in was founded on the concept that the majority should not impose its beliefs ont he minority and thus the entire premise of your argument is ignorantly stated. Furthermore, apparently unknown to you and many others as of 2011, a MAJORITY of Americans actually supported gay marriage. So on the majority vs. minority point your argument is also ignorant.
The simple reality is this, just like women's sufferage, segregation, etc. the American viewpoint is gradually transitioning to an enlightned viewpoint about homosexuality. You my fellow scout are on the backside of that curve whether you want to accept it or not. Boy Scouts and more specifically Eagle Scouts are supposed to show leadership and right now the BSA organization is trailing rather than leading. The organization's position will evolve eventually or it will wither into a shell of what it was - this is especially troubling in light of the fact that for the past decade membership in scouting has actually decreased even as the greater population increased.
As an Eagle Scout myself (1988) and married, heterosexual, father of a 9 year old boy, I can tell you the current position of the BSA is troubling to me and I have no intention of encouraging my son to participate like I would if I didn't see the BSA's position as short-sighted and amoral. Yes, I said amoral - treating other human beings as lesser because they are of an alternate sexual orientation is amoral. I don't need someone to interpret the Bible for me to know that. It is amoral just like it was amoral to make Africans slaves, suppress women's rights, and inter American citizens of Japanese decent into prison camps during WWII. For those of you who disagree with me, I ask you this - Do you ever think about the beliefs held by previous generations and find yourself boggling? Two generations from now, your decendents will be thinking the same things about you.
There is a common misunderstanding that the BSA is a wholly separate and private organization and receives no public support. These are the real facts:
CONGRESS:
The BSA was granted a Congressional charter in 1916, now codified as 36 U.S.C. Chapter 309,[41] stating that their purpose is to:
SUPREME COURT:
Desenting Stevens:
Stevens ended his dissent by noting that serious and "ancient" prejudices facing homosexuals could be aggravated by the "creation of a constitutional shield."[19]
PRESIDENT:
Finally, since the founding of the BSA in 1910, thePresident of the United States has served as the organization's honorary president during his term in office.[42]
The BSA is not wholly independent: it has a Congressional Charter; it has a Constitutional Shield as stated by Justice Stevens, and the President of the United States is the Honary President of the BSA: hardly an "Independent, private, organization."
There is nothing stopping gays from forming their own scouting type organization. The BSA set the rules for their organization, the gays can do likewise. Allowing gays into BSA would be a huge mistake, akin to allowing a hetero teenage boy and girl share a tent. Now imagine a strong willed gay kid sharing a tent with an insecure boy who he could intimidate or manipulate. The day the BSA capitulates to the gay crowd is the day I stop supporting the organization. Go ahead, call me a hatemonger homophob, not true at all, I have gay friends. By the same token, the BSA needs to keep the safety of its members foremost, that is what I support.
As for one posters blanket indictment of conservative republicans with regards to civil rights, you might want to study history to see who the real champions of civil rights have been, and it ain't no stinking liberal democrats.
hardtostarboard, your analogies suck. Sorry.
Yeah, thank God for that conservative stalwart, Lyndon Baines Johnson! Oh, wait...
hardtostarboard
I'm sure you actually believe that bilge you spew about conservatives being "real champions of civil rights," but have have serious doubts that you can actually come up with any examples. However, liberals have been "champions" of the following civil rights, opposed in every case by conservatives:
The list goes on ...... how is your list coming along, hard-one?
Billy-2156528, CactusJack1629, don't use gay slurs. You are both suspended for a day for violating rule # 5 of the Code of Honor.
Something people have hinted at but not pointed out:
THE SCOUTS TAKE FEDERAL FUNDS AND HAVE A CONGRESSIONAL CHARTER!!
Once these things are removed they can call themselves a private organization and start tossing out gays, blacks, and latinos so it can be the white children only club, just like they've always been!
Until then, they have no right as a psuedo-government entity to call themselves a private organization only when it suits their needs and discriminate!
Left wing you might want to do a bit more research on LBJ and the democrats of the period. Don't hate on me for saying it or expect me to explain it to you or do the research for you. He may have given some speechs that went over well but...... look it up, I mean books and literature from the period not just the stuff on the internet which anyone can write without proving.
Here's an idea. If you are an Eagle Scout, then decide whether or not you want to keep your medal/award. If you decide that you can't keep it because you disagree with the Scouts' beliefs, then do this: Get an envelope, put your awards in it, and send it back to them with a letter telling them why you are sending them back. Then go on with your life. You don't need to contact the media or seek attention by what you did. We don't really care. It's between you and them.
Disclaimer: I have an extremely liberal perspective on most issues.
However, the BSA is a private, christian organization. They always have been, and their stance on issues such as this has never been in question. The BSA is, has always been, and has never made a secret of being an organization for christian youths.
As a private organization they have every right to accept only those members who's views on certain issues match the views espoused by the BSA.
The only thing I can't understand is why anyone who is homosexual would even want to join the BSA. They do not like you. They think you are an unholy aberration. They don't believe you deserve the same basic human and civil rights that they take for granted.
WHY would you want to join an organization that hates you?
@Bruce
If you don't care about it, then why did you take the time to click on the article and leave a comment? This isn't just about BOA or Chick-Fil-A. It's about something much larger. It seems since our economy started collapsing a few years ago, we've taken steps back in rights of many groups. Women seem to be taking the brunt of it. Now gays are becoming less tolerated again. And let's not forget all the "rights" we lose every time some piece of s%&t...I mean piece of legislation gets passed. In general the moral of the story is, LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE AND LET THEM BE PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF USELESS TAGS WE ATTACH TO THEM TO PUT THEM IN SOME SORT SOCIAL CLASS!
OK, Broaderscope - I'll take the bait. Johnson did several things that imperiled his chance to run for a second full term, not the least of which was his handling of Viet Nam. But he also made a LOT of enemies for his stance on civil rights. You can try to rewrite history all you want, but facts is facts. I happen to be a student of history, and know full well that Democrats screwed up for years, but the current party is not the one from 1860. Of course, the Republican Party ain't the party of Lincoln, either, and they are more than making up for the Democrats folly from years gone past. You may want to check out what happened to those "Dixiecrats" when the party started leaning towards civil rights. Guess where many of them went? Oh, yeah...the Republican Party.
Revisionism is wonderful, but it does NOT fool me.
JKiff, the BSA is NOT a Christian organization, and as long as they depend on funding from non-private sources and tout a Congressional charter, they cannot have it both ways. It's good that they are moving the Jamborees to a Scout Reservation, as the military is not an appropriate "host" for a "private" organization. Additionally, if they want to promote this "private organization" garbage, they need to pay for usage of public facilities, including schools, libraries, etc. I would also question the ability to even PAY to use public facilities if they are in violation of Federal laws.
Nonsense.. I saw plenty of scouts in that article that said they would have returned it if the BSA ruled the OTHER way. There are like 100 eagles at most that would consider actually sending it back in now, there would be 1000 or more if it went the other way. Its a private organization leave them the F#$% alone
Speaking as a Bear Cub Scout den leader, to me it's simple: the Boy Scouts do not and should not have anything to do with sexuality, so this should be a non-issue with them.
And speaking as a Christian, the Scouts is NOT exclusively Christian. Go to scouting dot org and look up all the religious emblems under Rewards.
Ted, ignorance is bliss. You can make up any numbers you would like, but you are living in a fantasy world. Most youth of today are not scared of homosexuals as you appear to be and are far more accepting of them. Granted, older folks may not be as likely to stand up for the rights of others as one might hope, especially if they are Scouts or Scouters, but we can hold out hope.
And that private organization stuff doesn't hold water as long as they rely on public funds and public facilities. Can't have it both ways, Ted.
Why do I get the feeling that the scouts that don't give up their medals will now be labeled as "homophobes" and haters? Man, it's starting to feel like we are going to have loyalty tests pretty soon. "Excuse me, sir, I notice that you are not flying a rainbow flag off your porch. Is there a particular reason for that? Are you a homophobe?" NBC has already posted the names of those who chose not to return their badges.....
Since almost all scout troops are affiliated with local churches, the decision didn't surprise me in the least. But it does end up forcing some boys to lie and conceal their true nature, in direct contradiction to their supposed promotion of "honesty".
I learned to be honest and ethical and caring - but it wasn't scouting that taught me, as a young gay atheist I had to conceal my real feelings and lie about it. No wonder so many gays become great actors! It wasn't until after I left scouting that I found the courage to honestly be myself.
When I was young, I found I had to hide those aspects just to survive. In my religious community, all young boys were expected to go into scouting, to have refused would have triggered questions that I didn't dare answer honestly. So, like others in the same situation, (and there were others!) I went along to get along and survive.
Besides, as long as they didn't know, it was a lot of fun!
Gay rights isn't really about political correctness anymore.... it's about correctness.
Those bemoaning the actions of these Eagle Scouts about the Constitutional rights of BSA; this isn't a political movement, it's a social one. Government doesn't need to be involved.
If anything, it's those trying to use Government to shut down gays freedom of expression who are really the ones shaming the legacy of the rights of people to pursue happiness.
left wing nut job tries to use the same old tired rant that gay sex occurs in the animal world the same as it does in the human world. WRONG. In the animal world a male dog plugging another male dog in the butt is about dominance and that he is the alpha male and not to try and mate with the females in his heirom. Period. It isn't about love and affection. Infanticide, murder, incest and cannibalism also occur in the animal world so should the laws that govern man be changed because animals do it too?
@ Sally nice to see how you allow nondenigrating comments to be collasped and not restored but you allow vile, hate spewing comments to exist that are blantantly in violation of the code that says "above all else, show respect to others" coming from the likes of leftwing nut job.
Here is a good example:
I think that the BSA should go back to their roots - at the beginning, blacks, asians, and hispanics were not allowed to be members. They were a white only organization. Since they are bigoted and all those eagle scouts agree - they should get their white hoods out and go all the way. Don't hide behind the claim that you just don't like them gay types. Be honest and admit that you don't like darkies or any 'ferriners'. Only whites should be members - just like your evil god wants.
So far the only organizations I know of that exclude people based on their race is the KKK, the congressional black caucus and the congressional hispanic caucus. HMMMMMMMM.
You should heed your own advice. Mr Cathy simply stated a personal belief in an interview without attacking anyone, and now he is being attacked mercilessly. The gay community has become the biggest bullies in America, seeking to destroy anyone who holds an opinion they do not agree with. You are everything you claim to abhor. Why can't Mr Cathy believe what he believes without being attacked. BTW, your beloved Mr Obama claimed to have the same views up until May of this year when he conveniently "evolved".
Dave, do you often speak to animals to determine their motivation for what they do? What is an "old tired rant" is the argument by others that anything that they disagree with is an "old tired rant". Additionally, homosexuality is present in many life forms, not just in dogs and not just in males. Your argument is specious. Likewise, the rant, if you will, about infanticide, murder, etc., which have nothing to do with the argument.
As far as collapses, several of my posts have been, for whatever reason (I would assume due to folks like you that don't like hearing other sides of an argument...). But that is probably OK, since you disagree with me. Telling somebody that what they said is bogus is not a personal attack, nor is it vile or hate spewing. If you use hyperbole to make your arguments, that pretty much makes them moot.
Sorry you don't agree with me and feel that I am the only person on this board that says things you feel are inappropriate. I suggest you read a few more posts and reconsider your stance.
Bruce, Mr. Cathy has also given millions of dollars in an attempt to eradicate the evil homosexual and any rights they might have. That is NOT just expressing an opinion. But I guess it's OK with you, since you apparently agree with his viewpoint (don't know for sure, just guessing from the content of your post).
And do you think that people should not be allowed to change their views or stances? That is one of the dumbest arguments the right uses. I think we on the left would be delighted if somebody like Cathy or the BSA would change THEIR views. Using this argument, "Christians" should not worry about "saving" others, as nobody can ever change. Yeah, you folks run with that.
I see the biggest difference comes down to the basis of homosexuality, is it natural or is it not? Is it a life style choice or is it not? Are you born that way or not? I have gay friends and discussions with them tell me its a lifestyle choice, everyone of them has told me that YES, at one point they made a decision to live a gay life. Not one of them has ever admitted they were gay from birth. Those that say if its a choice , when did you choose to be straight? This makes no sense.. you don't choose to be born straight or gay, when you are born you don't choose anything. Everything you are including your character is a product of your environment and your own mind. What you work to become is what you become, its true with musicians, murderers, gays and monks; these are ALL lifestyles that you can become and choose to leave afterwards. I know many, in fact there are thousands that have lived the gay lifestyle and eventually have chosen to leave it and live the straight lifestyle.
So, every gay friend you have says they have chosen to live a life where they get to put up with the garbage that is being spewed on these pages? That is a choice they freely made? To knowingly be treated as pariahs by many? Yeah, sure.
Your arguments are specious at best, and likely knowingly prevarications. Everything you are is a product of your environment? When did you choose what race you would be? When did you choose what sex you would be? When did you choose what your mental capabilities would be? Your physical ones? Do you think Mozart chose to be a musical prodigy and, if so, at what age?
Left Wing
Stop assuming, did I say my friends left because of putting up with anti-gay sentiment. I did not because that is NOT the reason, they made the choice just as easily as they did when they chose to turn gay, they had good lives either way. Tell me, if it wasn't Mozart's choice, then who's was it? Only an idiot would believe he had no choice to create his music of not - it was by choice what he did. LW, Your reading comprehension is atrocious. And your rant is senseless, your race is NOT a lifestyle & neither is your sex, this has been explained to you, if you choose to remain ignorant then I am done with you. Goodbye
To me, this issue is exactly the same thing as the Chick-Fil-A story. I think both C-F-A and the BSA have the right to say - or allow membership to - whoever they want. But when they do, they better be prepared for the blow-back. I think the BSA have now tainted themselves in the eyes of the majority of non-scouts. They can "stick to their guns" all they want, but if they do they will become increasingly irrelevant. I think the ban is a shame; they used to be such a (seemingly) upstanding organization. Now, it just seems they could do so much better. But if that's the choice they've made, it's their right to make it. And it's our right to complain about it, and to attempt to force an attitude of acceptance upon them, eventually.
Gays didn't used to be allowed in the military. Now they are. Same story with blacks and women. Used to be you could smoke in elevators and movie theaters. Now you can't. Things change. You adapt or you die. Just the way it is...and the way it should be.
No, I don't actually believe that Obama changed his stance. I don't think he ever was for traditional marriage. He just says whatever he needs to say at any given time. Had he been honest, he never would have been elected. No one really knows what he believes because he is never honest about what he believes. This is pretty much true of many liberals though... The NAACP was against gay marriage until a week after Obama changed his position, then they magically changed theirs. Beliefs that can be changed so easily for the sake of politics aren't very deeply held.
No it doesn't mean they'll commit rape! But it does mean that a gay man likes looking and touching and doing other things with another males private parts!!!
Letting a gay man in to the BSOA would be like letting a heterosexual male in to the high schools girl locker room! The might not rape those girls but they might like looking at those young girls. Doe's it make it right even though they won't rape those girls?
Dude...your so off base, a blind catcher could throw you out. I am as straight as straight can be and for the world of me, I cant even begin to understand where you people come up with the nonsense you spew.
Although I agree with BSA on this issue, I only agree for one reason.
Because they are a PRIVATE organization and any group that is private should have the right to do as they please.
I understand the point many of you are trying to make. Yes, they discriminate. But so what in this case. They are a PRIVATE organization and they have the right to do as they please. There are hundreds of private organizations that discriminate against other races, creeds, religions or sex. Hundreds, if not thousands.
I am not saying their stance is correct, because I personally think it's wrong. And I have two Scouts, both of whom carry the rank of Life. Both will make Eagle. I am also the Outdoor Chairman for their Troop. We are a large Troop. In fact, we very well might be the largest Troop in Palm Beach County. Well, we discussed this issue as a Troop and much like this forum, we were pretty much split down the middle.
The bottom line is, this policy is nothing new and everybody knows up front what the deal is when they join. If you choose to join the BSA, than you choose to accept their policies. And theres two policies that are locked in stone with the Scouts.
1. They are a Christian organization. Period, end of subject there.
2. They do not allow gays.
The bottom line is, you have the right to be against their stance on this issue. However, you also have the right to not join. Nobody is twisting your arm behind your back or holding you at gunpoint. There are lots of other organizations out there who fit your criteria.
Like I said, I disagree with their stance, but I also disagree with anybody trying to tell a PRIVATE organization what they have to do. Simply put, you do not have the right. You dont, no matter how much you try to say otherwise. Theres to many people trying to tell other people what their supposed to think or feel and thats simply wrong. People do have the right to disagree with one's life style.
And thats my argument. Their private, thus they have the right to discriminate. I personally disagree with their stance, but I respect their right to have it. Just as you have the right to not join or not support any of their causes.....
When I was a kid growing up in a poor neighborhood in a large city, scouting gave me opportunities I never had. I never did make it to Eagle; just three merit badges short. I don't agree with BSA about its current policy, but to return an Eagle badge is a slap in the face. It goes against the very core of scouting. There are other ways to protest the policy.
Motz
I'm interested to know why you believe that returning the Eagle Scout badge "goes against the very core of scouting." Returning the badge was, in every case, a personal choice based on the individual's personal code of ethics and morality. Is that now allowed in scouting? Is group think a BSA requirement
@LeftWingNutJob . . . . . after reading your posts here I've come to the conclusion that you have put a lot of effort, thought and time into everyone of them! I've also come to the conclusion that if: Suddenly, every human being became gay and happy. AND, suddenly everything on this earth was wonderful, YOU would still be angry. The reason for this is that the problem exist in you. And, you will never be happy and no matter what you tell us that anger will never change until you seek help! You need a good psychiatrist.
I was awarded the rank of Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow in 1968. The scouting experience was and is the greatest positive influence in my life. However I disagree with the exclusion of gays in the organization. The only thing that has changed from 1968 until now is that the gay community is not hiding in the closet. There have always been gays in scouting and there will continue to be gays in scouting as long as they keep their secret.
All scouts are to be "morally straight" and as a young scout that meant abstaining from sex until adulthood. So if a gay scout does the same, then there is no conflict with the values of the scouting program.
Ol Yellow Dog, as the wife of an Eagle Scout, mother of a Life Scout beginning his Eagle project, and also mother of a former Girl Scout, now Venturing Scout, thank you for your voice of reason. Yes, legally the Boy Scouts have the right to exclude whoever they choose. But what values are they teaching when they kick out boys-many who have been dedicated Scouts for years-because as these boys have matured, they're realized their sexuality is different from what society expects? It's not like these boys knew, when they because Tiger Scouts, that they were gay and therefore in violation of Boy Scout policy. These boys have deeply embodied what Scouting means, and worked hard to get where they are, only to have to decide between letting the world know who they are or remaining a Scout, but a closeted Scout. Sex - homosexual OR heterosexual - has no place in Scouts. And Scouts have leadership policies in place to protect Scouts.
I've struggled with keeping my kids in Scouts (was not a problem when my daughter was a Girl Scout, since there policies are different). But there is no other organization in our area that will teach my son the life skills that Boy Scouts does. So he remains, but with the understanding that we as a family oppose this policy.
So, you propose that gay scouts should stay in the closet into adulthood? They should lie about who they are? Wouldn't that violate their being "morally straight"?
Princessbride...Campfire USA may be more inline with your values.
@elrenno - not sure who your comment was directed at. Ol yellow dog said that kids of Scouting age shouldn't be engaging in sex - regardless of orientation - that's what "morally straight" means. And I agree. I also think boys shouldn't have to lie about who they are inside just to remain in Boy Scouts. Which is what Boy Scouts is asking for. If a boy has been a Scout for most of his life, and over time realizes that he is gay, then under the current rules he has two choices - quit (or be kicked out), or stay in the closet. I think that's wrong. Boys who strive to be Scouts should be able to remain Scouts, and their sexual orientation should not be an issue. Sexual relations at Scouting events are inappropriate, whether it's between a male and female Venturing Scouts, two female Venturing Scouts, or two male Boy Scouts. Sexual relations between Scout leaders are also not allowed at Scouting events. Sexual relations between Scout Leaders and Scouts are not allowed. There are rules in place about this. So what is the problem?
Gmom: you might have meant it for princess, but I thank you for the tip.
Old Yellow Dog: One point that you allude to, and which the majority of posters on this vine seem to overlook is another (what I consider major) aspect of being morally straight: being non-judgemental. I refer people to the entire first paragraph of Matthew, chapater 7. In this paragraph, Christ - himself - talks about being judgemental ("Judge not, lest ye be judged. ..."). I have seem other scriptural references, notably to Paul's epistles. Paul was not Christ, even though he presumed the authority to speak for Christ. Being morally straight, most definitely (at least to me) includes being nonjudgemental of your fellow man. If he breaks the law, or does other things that are legally or morally wrong, then judge the act, and bring the person who did it to justice. Thanks for bringing this to light.
How about if people just lie about their sexual orientation?
I mean if the Scouts are going to teach bigotry and prejudice, then why not?
If the scouts are teaching people to discriminate against what science has shown to be set biologically, then I'd say they don't deserve much respect with oaths.
Besides lying right off will come in handy later if Scouts want to become politicians and community leaders.
They can use the lessons of lying and bigotry to oppose equality and justice.
They can use lying to change text books to fit their personal beliefs instead of based on science and historical documents.
They can oppose people based on skin color and blame them for all the ills of society.
They can spread false rumors and oppose health care for those who can't afford it.
They can be like the many church and political leaders we've seen who oppose homosexuality in public and practice it in private.
Lying will be a nice first step to accustom themselves to sitting near the front row at church and saying "Amen" as the preacher teaches about Christ's love for all and then leaving it behind once the sermon is over.
Scouts need to learn early on from Scout Leaders that if you want to be treated with false honor and false respect, you'll need to be willing to associate yourself with people who put sexual orientation before strength of character.
So why not start right off and give the oath the respect it deserves by practicing the lie it swears to uphold.
I am happy my two wonderful grandsons managed to grow up to be just as good as the"better-than-you" Eagle Scouts. They did this without "benefit" of the Boy Scouts which discriminate against some of the finest men I know. One is leaving to attend one of the finest universities in the US and one where I hope he does not observe discrimination. For those of you who read the Boy Scout Oath and interpret it the way you wish, there is just no hope. Hate is not a Christian value nor is discrimination dictated by God. How ridiculous.
Boo hooo booo hoo What the hell are talking about? What makes you think anyone cares about your opinion ?
Josh: I invite your attention to my posting #2.6, above, especially to my reference to Matthew 7, the entre first paragraph. By the way, Texan is right; hate is NOT a Christian value. Remember the second Great Commandment: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
The Boy Scouts of America don't hate gays, they said so. When we tell a fat person they look good is that a lie? See the similarity? Nobody's right, nobody's wrong here, just please let us live our lives and we will let you live yours.
I proudly earned my Eagle in 1976 with my brother and three others from my troop. I will not return my Eagle Award and at the same time I do not support the stance BSA continues to take. Granted it is their constitutional right to do as they please - but they must come out of their shell and teach the young men how to succeed in today's world - not yesterday's world.
To continue to hide behind a religious belief structure that in itself has produced some of society's worst pedophiles and child abusers is incredible.
My son is an Eagle Scout AND is a free thinker with an open and accepting mind and heart. A very close relative of ours has had a partner for quite a few years and is accepted and welcomed into our homes and hearts 100%.
We must prepare out youth for what is front of themand not hide from reality. Somewhere I learned a motto that I have believed in my entire life, "BE PREPARED"
Very well put.
Ralph: excellent post!
Why? Why do they have to come out of their shell. Why can't you and those that have your belief build an organization called the "Boy Scouts of the United States" and you can let gays and straits in together. And when anyone else wants in you can let them in to, "anyone". Why can't you leave us alone and let us have our own beliefs. Please answer that, why can't you leave us alone??? Why do you have to continually bully us?
The Boy Scouts of America is a Christian organization that has it's rules to join if you don't like their rules don't join. Letting gay's join the Boy Scouts of America is like letting fox's into the hen house so that they can have their way. Over the years I can see that the people of the democrat party have turned MARXIST (followers of Carl Marx) and that they tend to be anti Christian.
I agree that BSA should not let adult leaders be gay, however I disagree with you comment about Democrats. I am a Dem and have been all my life will continue to be. I also go to church every sunday. I do not understand why any christian would be a republican as they spout hate and greed as thier motto and use religion as a fake front. Jesus said to lift up the poor and help them and give up your richs this goes against everything that republicans stand for. I have heard Repubs say they would rather have someone die then get free health care. That is nuts. Wake up and be a real christian and vote for someone who cares about the oppressed instead of someone who only cares about making rich people richer. oh and I am also againg abortion;o) God bless.
The BSA is NOT A CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION, ROSS. They have Buddhists, Muslims (HEAVEN FORBID!), and a plethora of other religions in membership. And why is letting gays into the BSA like letting a fox into the hen house? Are you equating homosexuality with pedophilia? Ever try much reading? Wow. But at least you got to throw that Marxist BS in, huh? Great argument. Get an education, will you?
@LeftWing - Calm down. Quit degrading people. Disagree, but do it with respect. You're acting like a complete jerk.
I find it quite interesting and more than a little revealing that the only person you seem to think is a jerk in all these posts is me. Odd. No posts to those that use narrow-minded arguments in a lame attempt to support their idealogy. No posts to those that use language that should get them banned from this site. No posts to those that use religion as a tool to support their hatred. Why is that?
LeftWing, maybe I can see that's you are an intelligent person who is just trying to explain your point of view and challenge others. I just don't like the style is all. The other people spouting off hate, etc... I guess I just ignore.
So, eph, I should not challenge others when they lie about the BSA being a Christian organization (it is not). Or that equate homosexuality with pedophilia? Or that make inane statements that intimate I am a Marxist? Your stance is, I'm sorry to say, specious.
Uh, no, the BSA is NOT a Christian organization. It never was. It accepted people of ALL faiths! You were clearly never involved with the Scout, at least in the past!
BTW, can you tell me where in the bible, Jesus said even one word about Homosexuality?
Simple. He never did!
LeftWing, you can argue all you want, I'm just saying do it with respect and dignity, even if others aren't doing the same to you. You're simply contributing to the madness and hate. Your argument is much stronger when you do it in a respectufly way. Resist the urge to hit back with nastiness.
Do you think, when a 6-year old first joins Cub Scouts, that he is aware of his sexuality at that point? These kids embrace Scouting long before they are aware their sexuality is such that they would not be accepted by Scouts. When they do become aware of who they are, the organization they've been part of for years tells them they are no longer welcome. That is NOT respectful of others.
eph521, Left Wing Nut Job has explained his position quite succinctly and been civil about it! You seem offended that someone is standing up to the brown shirts who say their way or the highway! If you don't stand up for right and reason, then your just as guilty as the brown shirts are when someone of a different race, religion or life style is assaulted in public or killed. Hate has to be stopped!
A former scout, a father, and one who believe in Christian values, but not in the hypocosy practiced by most flag wrapped christians!
Hey Ross - Just for the record, it's Karl Marx. Good god man, if you're going to label an entire political party get your "facts" straight.
So I wonder how many Eagle Scouts returned their badges, medals etc, when they finally let the first black child join?
Maybe we can work towards a BSA that has both Christian and American values. If they can't do both they should settle for just the American values, or maybe just close up shop altogether.
By the way, it's "its", not "it's".
homosexuality = pedophilia?
So no older man should EVER coach or teach or lead a goup of youth females and no older woman should EVER coach or teach or lead agroup of young males, because, according to your reasoning they would be attracted to them and you would be letting foxes into hen houses everywhere... Just because a man is attracted to other men doesn't mean they are turned on by little boys...Assuming you are a man who likes woman, does that mean you also like little girls?
Get a clue, Ross....
While I totally appreciate and respect others who disagree with my objection to BSA's ban on Gays admittance into their organization, I do object to their arguments based on ignorance of facts. It is widely held by most scientists , biologists, and psychiatrists that homosexuality is not a choice. It is most disconcerting to hear people in this day and age still using this as an argument to ban,punish", or suggest that gays should expect consequences because of their "choice". Just reviewing the hatred and homophobia in the comments herein is proof positive that someone would be out of his or her mind to make such a "choice"!!
This is quite possibly one of the stupidest analogies I have ever heard. Why do people pervert homosexuality and assume all homosexuals must be sexual predators? It just baffles my mind. You do realize that most pedophiles are STRAIGHT men, right? That behavior is not as much about sex as it is them being attracted to a certain AGE. Do some research before you make blanket assumptions. You should be more afraid of the normal everyday-looking straight troop leader than the homosexual one. Unfortunately, because of misconceptions like yours pedophilia will not only continue to happen in this organization, it will be overlooked because they believe they have "fixed" the problem by eliminating gay citizens.
@ Jaime 1234
Might have to do with a little PSA from the 50's and other such stigmas from the era that are still being carried forward. Since I can't make links yet search youtube for "Homosexual PSA"(the full is the one that's a little over 10 minutes.)
So much of the arguments I am reading smack very strongly of religious dogma/doctrine. I can practically see brand names for the different Fundamentalist denominations here being called out in the comments. Notice I did not say Christian. They are not. They are, instead, Churchian: organizations that call themselves Christian, but which are, instead, so totally wrapped up in their own doctrine and dogma - as a church, but not as a Christian organization - that they are divorced from anything resembling the central tennets of Christianity. Thus the name Churchian. I am not a scriptural scholar, but I believe that I can summarize the tennets of Chnristianity in Christs response to the Pharrisees when they asked him "which of the Commandments is the greatest?" (Which of the 613 Torahnic Commandments): (I paraphrase here) "Love God, and Love thy neighbor as thyself." (My words now) Everything else is commentary.
Can't someone just start the Gay Scouts of America instead of forcing an established organization like the BSOF to allow gays? It seems the few who are gay think the majority, who aren't, should just open up and accept them come hell or high water. Why don't the gays just start their own? With all the energy they use to force people do things against their better judgement or morals they could have started their owns scouts and had it up and running by now.
I never did understand why people think they have the right to force their opinions and beliefs on others. I don't see non-gays forcing their hetrosexualness on gays. WTF Man!!!! I also doubt heterosexuals would be beating down the door to get in to the GSOA if there was one.
Create your own scouts and quit trying to take over what others have created. It's pathetic at best!!!
I agree that it's not a choice. Although I do believe it's a genetic misfire in the form of a birth defect. Humans are the only creatures on the planet that knowingly have sex with the same sex. I always thought procreation was the natural instinct of all warm and cold blooded creatures. How else does the world populate?
Hey, Dr. GLCSR, are you saying that other creatures that have homosexual sex are not aware they are having said sex? Interesting.
The people of this country are like a couple of dogs fighting in the middle of the road (over the ideology behind chicken sandwiches and scout badges). We're so busy fighting each other that we don't see the semi truck barrelling down the hill toward us. We let the media and the politicians distract us from the real issues...the continued off-shoring of our jobs, the steady decline of our economy, and the billions of dollars we are pumping into wars and foreign, hostile nations instead of investing in ourselves...just to name a few. We should be pulling together to get through these difficult times; instead, we're squabbling over trivialities.
Keep your eye on the real ball, folks, or that semi truck is going to knock you flat, and this petty nonsense won't mean a thing when that happens. The media and the government are not your friends.
You nailed it. Slight of hand by the media and the politicians. Get everybodies mind off the real issues. This is not front page news and I happen to believe that a private organization can set the rules on who they allow or not in their membership. I am an Eagle Scout from 1983 and while I agree with thier decision, no one would have a clue either way if people would keep what happens in their bedroom in their bedroom. I am sick of hearing about it. I do not care what you do sexually with anyone else of consenting age, and do not want it thrown in my face every day. Agree or not, my Eagle scout medal is mine and will never be in anyone elses possession. Oops, I got off the subject. Anyway, watch how the media manipulates the focus of the election. It is happening right now under your noses. Fight and trash each other over issues that DO NOT effect our economy and current government situation. Good catch Robbie.
Robbie-1437294
You are absolutely correct.... if the fanatics on the left and right keep on fighting, this country will split up just like the Yugoslavia... Thomas Chittum's book, Civil War II predicted just that several years ago. The divide and hatred in this country now is beyond the level that it was in 1858-1861.. and everyone knows what happened in April 1861. If the fanatics don't shut up and look at the larger picture, the breakup of the USA is inevitable..... be it by war or by the vote.... it will come.
Since when are Human Rights "petty nonsense?"
Freedom of speech, freedom to be the person you want to be, freedom to live your life the way you want within the law. When those freedoms throw someones sexual activity in my face, I lose all compassion for their plight. Even the military is getting sucked into the political B.S. They allowed gay military members to march in a rally in their uniform. Complete political B.S. The UCMJ does not allow me as a retired member to wear my uniform to a rally or protest yet they allow them to march in a gay pride rally. Illegal and changing the rules to appease a specific group. WRONG on all counts and it is just as WRONG to dictate those personal freedoms on a private group. No one is hanging them, no one is chasing them down the street kicking the !@#$ out of them, no one is saying you cannot be gay. They are saying you cannot be a part of my private organization. This all stinks of politics. Give it a rest.
Oh, gee, Corona, let me think...since families are living in cars because the parents lost their jobs, since young men and women are dying on foreign soil in this country's longest and dumbest war, since students can't afford college or graduate with so much debt they'll never work their way out from under it, since companies are firing American workers and replacing them with illegals at a fraction of the wage, since American cities are filing for bankruptcy, since members of both political parties...from the president on down to the local city council...are lying to the people who elected them and selling out the folks who are paying their wages. Do you really want me to think that issues such as who can join a boys' club or the beliefs of a guy selling chicken are more important? Well, here's my advice to you...wear something that goes with tire tracks, because that big ol' truck I was talking about is going to run right over you.
ROBBIE:
Most excellent my friend.
Voted up.
'Enough said.....
The boy scouts, like Chick-Fil-A, are narrowing their followers.
Not so sure about the net results in these cases. Yes, some people will no longer support them, but others will support them even more.
Umm, the BSOA aren't movie Stars, or rock Stars.So, they don't have "followers."They want ppl like you to leave them alone.Mind your own business!
Institutionalized bigotry and discrimination are everyone's business, Billy.
Private groups are just that, private. They can "discriminate" all they want. And when a group does discriminate and we don't like it, we just move on and have nothing to do with that group. That's freedom and fairness.
Sticking around and voicing our opposition to the group's bigoted and discriminatory policies is also a completely valid expression of "freedom and fairness," as is your sticking around to defend those policies.
I completely agree with eph. Why would I eat at BK when I hate their food? They are not obligated to change their recipes to suit my taste. Maybe I should protest that.
So Ash, has the BSA said being gay is bad? Have they said to hate gays? Have they said a person should not be kind to gays? Is a BSA troop/pack the only place to learn tolerance? The answer to all of these questions is no. The BSA still teaches scouts need to be friendly, kind and courteous with no disclaimer, they just choose not to support the gay agenda. In my opinion the BSA is less bigoted than some gay agenda promoters. As I said above, the BSA expects all scouters to be friendly kind and courteous to everyone but some, and looking at the media, and many of the posts, possibly many, people fell that when a person disagrees with the gay opinion they automatically become a hater are are subject to harassment and bullying possibly to try and force them to change their opinion.In case you don't think so, look at the protests during Prop 8 in California, how many violent protests were NOT started by gays, there may have been some but there were far more started by gays. I see this as the gay community teaching intolerance saying "if you don't agree with me you must be punished." Now I know that not all gays fall into the bigoted category, but sadly they are overshadowed by the jerks who tend to be less tolerant.
I sure love some Chick-Fil-A. I do not give a crap what they do with their hiring or their policies regarding someones sexual preference.
And I will be buying popcorn from the Boy Scouts when they are out selling this year.
I wont. But only because their Popcorn sucks. I know. I have 2 Scouts myself and we have to sell that @!$%# every year. :) You know what I do with ours? I personally buy it all and then give it away to the homeless outreach charity at my church.
Now my GS Thin Mints are a whole different matter. Touch those and I'll gun your ass down! Rotflmao!
The Boy Scouts need to kick out the Mormon cultist also!
Right the Mormons are the problem... just because they don't agree with the position
they are the problem and should be banned so that the group you support isn't
banned. Thanks for showing us who the real problem is right now, extremists. So
they say they do not want openly gay people in the BSoA so you want to kick out
the "Mormons" way to be fair and non-biased and accepting like you
want them to do /s. By the way they are members of The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-Day Saints, which is very family focused and oriented, a generally
good though traditional wholesome group, their hearts are in the right place
just as the scouts but no one is perfect. While I disagree with their views on
homosexuality again it is their right. A little history for you, the Mormons
were persecuted openly attacked and kicked out of many areas in earlier America
but way to advocate kicking them out of the BSoA since they could be the only
possible reason gays are currently banned... Btw I am involved with the scouts
and I agree with the position, I also have gay family members and good friends
the issue is not that I do not think they should be banned but why can't they
be gay as they want outside of BSoA just not while they are at a function or
campout. We always knew that some guys may have been no biggie but to say a
forced acceptance of people to be openly gay while being a part of BSoA is
ridiculous. Nothing is wrong with being gay, but something is wrong with
forcing those that wish to simply not know to openly accept homosexuals. Like I
said we had a few in my small troop we all believed to be homosexual we did
nothing to harm them or changed them they were good guys they carried on with
us until we all split around college. It is not something that should be forced
onto kids or anyone who would rather not have to confront it. Once it is out in
a situation like this, similar to the army, then people have to decide and
others question where they stand. It is divisive and counter to what should be
going on. Why is it such an issue to not be in your face about your sexual
preference when sexual preference should not even come up in the equation of
scouting or military, same reason you split the boy from the girls in scouting
exist in military training, yes they may not be lusting after one another but
it is a not needed distraction on both sides all the same. I still don't get
the mentality that it is ok to force a change down the throats of organizations
like this when no one in the group is forcing anything on anyone. Never did I
hear anything negative or hateful about gays or about not treating them like
anyone else, also never was I forced to pray or read the bible this issue I
feel is being perverted for other means the gay rights. Yes they should be
allowed to marry, yes they should be able to serve, just why does it need to be
openly? Yes they have their own groups that would deny a straight or a Mormon
from participating... There is a country club in my area where you have to be Jewish
to be a member and I don’t think they are bigots or evil, narrow minded people that’s
how they prefer to run it and that is how they like it I am fine I won’t force
them to change or close. It is their American right and I have fought to
preserve it and yes you can complain but stating it’s your right to complain
and protest until they change it is not how it works. State your argument and
they will decide to agree or disagree while they respect you opinion, ideas,
point of view and how you would like it to change you should respect their
opinions, ideas, point of view and how they have it set up currently and plan
to have it set up in the future. Why the double standard why is this unlike your pay, religious or political affiliation in a work environment? No one needs to know where you are on those subjects and
that is a fine acceptable fact, if you want them to know you can tell them but
they don't have to know these things. All I have to say for any group fighting
for anything is don't fight against oppression only to become oppressive, if
it's equality you want then don't force your view on others, you can be openly
gay and the BSoA can be openly straight this wasn't an issue until someone
wanted to force it.
Sorry this was long after all the comments I had to put in my two little pennies and yes I know my punctuation and grammar may be bad I have come to terms with it.
Dont forget the Catholics, Babtists, Lutherans, Atheists and everybody else too.....
I returned my badge and my certificate (signed by Nixon) a few weeks ago.
I'm ashamed of the Scouts teaching bigotry. Heck we had a gay kid in the troop back in the 70's and no one cared! We also had a bunch of non-Christians! Scouting should teach tolerance.
Recall that Jesus didn't say a single word about homosexuality in the entire New Testament.
For those Eagle Scouts that don't get it, they need to return their badges because they are unworthy of the rank.
Jesus did not speak of it because it either was not going on except maybe in Sodom and Gomorrah or people kept their sexual behavior in their bedroom. I will keep my Eagle Scout medal and my pride as I support thier decision to allow who they want into the ranks. I have nothing against homosexuals and what they decide to do with their lives, but if a couple of them decide to hang out in my front yard and display their decisions there will be issues. Keep your sexual preferences, nature, whatever the political B.S. is calling it today to yourself. The scouts do teach tolerance. They also teach "morally straight" If the parts don't fit, etc. etc.
Gunner, right you are and they won't let a known racist join them either. I personnally know of an incident where a white kid called a black kid the n word and he was kicked out for it.
An Eagle mailing his badge back to the BSA is a sad thing but it is everyone's right and priviledge to stand up for what they believe. In case you don't know, returning the award does not mean that person is no longer an Eagle Scout. The BSA and NESA (National Eagle Scout Association) do not purge their rolls just because a badge is returned. I've also noticed that no one has mentioned quitting NESA.
When I returned my badge, I asked to be taken off the list of Eagle Scouts. And this is the first I've ever heard of the NESA.
Herron, first I respect your choice even though I don't agree with it. I'm not an Eagle but my two sons are and I've helped another 20 or so scouts become Eagle so I know what it takes and how special it is. My sons DO get it, the are absolutely worthy of the rank and they aren't about to return their badges. Again, I respect your opinion but to unequivocally state that an Eagle who doesn't get it is unworthy of the rank and to try to force your judgement on others with that statement shows that you have forgotten what you had to learn to become Eagle.
How can you not agree with his choice? Do you think he should have clung onto his badges and membership despite the fact that he doesn't agree with a blatently discriminitive organization's policies? Herron, I'm sorry they were not all that you thought they were. It must have gutted you to hear that an organizition you've revered your entire life turned out to be run by a bunch of severely pathetic homophobes. Your comment about tolerance falls on completely deaf ears here. Tolerance is dead in the US. Gone. It's either my way or you're just a fool. Nobody is wrong on these boards.
If I suspect my children are being exposed to intolerant influences, I'll remove them from that disease. They WILL know better, and it'll make the world just a tiny bit better than it otherwise would have been.
GFN, how is the BSA bigoted? They have stated that the ideals they want to promote are not in line with the gay agenda. Have they said to be mean to gays or gay supporters? Have they stated scouts should treat gays differently than anyone else? As I said in an above post, the BSA still expects scsouts to be friendly knid and courteous with out any disclaimers. I think the gay community is less tolerant than anyone else. They teach "if you don't agree with me, you must be a hater and should be protested against and bullied." If you don't think so, look around and see how people who disagree with the gay agenda are treated, even if the targeted people/business have no history of discrimination just opinion.
Btldriver: My observation is not meant to sound as smart-allec as it will. I don't have a hard-copy of this, but here goes. I understand the definition of bigot, as taken from Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary, to be something like "a biogot is somebody who obstinately holds to an opoinion that you strongly disagree with." Perhaps that's what GFN meant in the current context. Thoughts? Ideas?
***This just in*** 75% of Eagle Scouts say......
Comment # 12 deleted for using gay slurs.
IDiddntDoIT, you are suspended for a week for violating rule # 5 of the Code of Honor.
Hatred and Bigotry are taught at home. I mentor at-risk high school and elementary students, and I am shocked when students are detained at a counselor's office until a parent arrives to address the issue or issues, such as bullying, fighting, name calling, or direct threats of violence against another student. I truly love hearing a parent of an at-risk child proclaim that the world would be better if every N***r or F*g were dead. After three years, I can state that all but one at-risk student I have mentored, found a way to turn their personal life around. Our children are learning to become adults, and those with positive thinking parents, who refuse to teach Hatred and Bigotry are raising the leaders of tomorrow, while those children who elect to following the hate filled shoes of their parents are doomed to fail. If you want an eye opener, ask permission to sit in a high school cafeteria during the lunch periods and just listen. Your mind will be spinning when you leave that cafeteria. Take a moment and ask yourselves if the Chic-fil-A confrontations do not appear to be quite similar to a "Childish Food Fight". Welcome to America, the country we expect other countries to emulate.
Hey, whatever makes you happy is fine with me, but DO NOT PUSH your way of life and your way of thinking onto other people and organizations. If the BSA says no, they mean no. Go elsewhere and do what you want to do. I'm so sick of the "pushing gay this and gay that onto everyone else". I honestly do no care which side you bat for, but if you push it on me in any way shape or form I will push back.
They were told no, so they should just walk away and start the Gay Scouts or something, something that would be good and comfy for the people that would want to join. These gay parents need to think about the kids instead of themselves for a change as it is really only going to hurt the kids in the long run. It's sad as it is usually the children that get tossed in the middle of crap like this.
Are you tired of the pushing of "Christian this" and "Christian that" as well? The "my religion is better than yours" arguments?
If the BSA wants to discriminate, they have every right to do so. It's immoral, but I guess it is their right. On the other hand, they need their Congressional charter revoked; they do NOT have a right to that.
Yeah, yeah big redneck piece of garbage, many of us are tired of having your little Chrisitan fairy tale shoved down our throats. Admit what you are - a hate filled Nazi bigot. So how about this pal, take your Bible, fold it into five corners and shove it where the sun dont shine!
What does the Congressional Charter do for the BSA? I agree it should be revoked if it gets them special treatment that's not afforded to gay organizations. But the BSA should be allowed to make their own policies.
Involved in Scouts? The Congressional charter is something that the BSA points proudly to; the problem with that is that it makes it appear that Congress supports an organization that violates Federal discrimination laws. Yes, they are a private organization and as such should be free to do whatever they want within the bounds of the law, but they should not be doing so with a wink and a nod from our government.
No, not involved in Scouts. I was asking what the Charter does for BSA. Legitimate and honest question.
Nut Job & AJVAN, when is the Christian values being shoved down your throat? Right now its only when someone has an anti-gay article and even then only in the posts. But let's look at how often America gets the gay agenda shoved down thier throat--any time a celebrity fells the need to come out, laws that prevent people from tell others its not OK to be gay, anytime there is a proposition promoting the gay agenda, TV shows that want to be seen as accepting or edgy, politicians that want votes or to make news. Finally there are the articles, like this one, about anyone who express an opinion that is against, percieved or intended, the gay agenda. So please quit your whining.
Seriously, btldriver? When are so-called Christian values shoved down my throat? How about just about every day? This is one example, but there are so many it is hard to keep track. Of course, the BSA is not a Christian organization, but it sure seems a lot of people seem to think so. Know what else? The United States is not a Christian country. Was never founded to be Christian and still isn't, regardless of what a lot of misinformed people think. There were many that came here to escape religious persecution, and they would be appalled at the current state of things.
It is funny, however, that the same people that whine about freedom of speech for the zealot that owns Chick-fil-A are the same ones that go off on a rant because somebody they don't agree with wants to exercise those same freedoms. How does that work? Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y?
And WHAT is the "gay agenda"? To be treated like a human being? Is that it? Or is it some made-up crap certain people use to vilify those that are different?
Yeah, we should quit OUR whining so you can have the whiny podium all to yourself...
In God We Trust, One nation under God. Those lines ring a bell? Whatever you say. I push back when the gay agenda is pushed in my face, as it is every day. I do not agree with it, I do not condone it, but if it is your choice, keep it to yourself. Why do i need to know? and why do they feel the need to tell everyone? Who cares? There is one easy way to stop all of it though. Turn off the TV, the computers, the cell phone crutches, stay off of all social media. Then one cn just turn their head when they encounter it face to face and be done. Eagle Scout and keeping my medal.
Sorry to disappoint you, gunner, but I am not gay. I just think it is cowardly to not stand up and fight against baseless discrimination. And WHAT is the "gay agenda" other than a means to display that one is ignorant and homophobic by using that inane phrase?
In God We Trust? When did that slogan come into being? Any idea? Obviously not, because it had nothing to do with the founding of this country - it is also not Christian (it ain't "In Jesus We Trust"), but don't let any of those facts dissuade you from your rant. Feel free to spout whatever non-fact-based drivel you want, because you have the right to make yourself look silly.
You do Scouting no service to boast of your rank.
Government brainwashing includes, but is not limited to, instilling the belief that the need for control overrides freedom. Shake it off. What other people think or say about you, the individual, is none of your business. It's their business. It has nothing to do with you. You are free. You are not under someone else's control. There must be the right to be different in America. That is freedom. Follow what are only a few simple, commonsense laws that deal with personal responsibility and accountability for your actions. Stop playing the game. Stop wearing indignance on your sleeve. Your life is diminished when it is constantly battling real and contrived offenses. Offenses will always exist. It is how we deal with them that matters. Move on with your life. Live a good one to the best of your ability. Keep your eyes on the prize. Love one another. Forgive one another. Be generous. Be free.
I know kids that were molested by queer scout masters...now what?!
Let's ban the church because priests molest boys!
If only we had some sort of legal system, that could prosecute people who violate another person's rights.
Billy: how does your statement apply to the lesbian mother who was ousted? Was she accused of molesting anyone? She's gay, not a pedophile. Pedophiles can be found in all walks of life so what point are you making?
Why is a homosexual Scout leader any more of a threat than a Den Mother? No one kicks out Den Mothers (/sarcasm on unless, of course they happen to be a lesbian, because lesbians are so likely to molest young boys /sarcasm off), Somehow female Scout leaders are able to control their impulses around Scouts - why is it that homosexual leaders are all expected to be rapists and pedophiles?
I guess we should NEVER allow homosexuals to be in Scouts, as they might molest our boys. We should only allow big, manly men; men with families and children. Men that are true heterosexuals. Like football coaches. Oh...wait.
Rotflmao!
Awesome! Voted Up!
Sex should not have anything to do with scouting. Why should the subject even come up? Are they saying young boys who might be gay can not join scouts, or just that adult gay men can not be leaders?
The BSA says nobody can be involved in Scouting if they are homosexual. That goes for youth as well as adults, and would include males and females of all ages.
OK, then we'll go w/ that [Scoutmaster] one word, BUT I'm sure you Googled "BSOA molested by Scoutmasters" right?Because we just know you have the CHILD'S welfare and safety set as your #1 priority.I like how you try and weasel your way off subject w/ your attempt at slight of hand.This whole campaign isn't a war of hate by the BSOA, nor Christians.Rather a war against them by a brood of Viper and you know it!
Good job, Billy. You responded to the wrong post. Would responding to the wrong post be a means of "weaseling" your way off subject? Or a feeble attempt at sleight of hand? I really don't care, just a rhetorical question - I haven't avoided anything myself, but you already knew that. Your lame attempt to equate homosexuality with pedophilia, though, I DO care about that, because it is a lie.
By the way, what do you know about the BSA? Or actual Christians? I mean, seriously know? You can't even get the organization's abbreviation right...
Thank you Leftie :)
I can only speak with knowledge about this when talking about my Troop and Pack, but we are the largest Troop and Pack in Palm Beach County and we carry some weight with the Council. And this is our policy when it comes to sex. It is also the policy of both BSA and our local Council.
ZERO TOLERANCE.
Neither Leaders or Scouts are allowed to discuss sex in any way, shape or form. To do so will get you expelled immediately. We have -in fact- expelled 4 Scouts over the past few years due to this Policy and all 4 expellsions were due to gay bashing. When it comes to Leaders and Scouts being together, no Scout is allowed to be alone with an adult Leader. Ever, for any reason. (Unless the child is theirs.)
Now, the truth is, we're a little lax with this rule when it comes to the Boy Scouts discussing sex among themselves. Let's be real here. We're talking about teenage boys and their going to discuss sex. But when it comes to adult/child interaction, there really is a zero tolerance policy. We have only expelled one adult due to this rule and the adult in question literally had to leave a camping trip. The funny part is, it was a woman and not a man.
So although I cant speak with intelligence on this issue when it comes to BSA as a whole, I can speak with authority when it comes to the the Gulfstream Council and to the BSA Policy itself. It's an issue we acknowledge and deal with.....
The BSA is nothing more than a Christian hate group that teaches boys and young men to hate a group of people that have done nothing to harm them. They may hide behind their camp fires, knot tying and soapbox derbies but they are what they are, a bunch of hate filled, hypocritical, Bible thumping bigiots!
If you think it's so wrong what the BSA is all about, I'm surprised at the hate your filled with and spewing out today. Don't act like the BSA if that's what you truly believe. You have mud all over you if you know what I mean.
You must not know much about the Boy Scouts. They aren't even a Christian group.
Technically, no.
But in reality, yes.
And sorry, but nothing you say will make that untrue. I have been involved with Scouting for about 7 years and i'm here to tell you, it is a Christian organization. Which i'm personally okay with, since we are Christians ourselves.
But trying to say their not is not only untrue, it's naive as all hell.....
Google "Boy Scouts molested by scout masters" then STFU!
Google "boys molested by religious leaders" while you're at it... (and it's Scoutmasters...one word)
So you ban lesbians just to keep it even. BS to your logic.
Google - boys molested by priest and the church covers it up!
Well the results are in! EVERTHING that involves people is screwed up!!!, because nobody has the self-control or ability to agree to disagree and try to calmly work out a solution.. There you all have it!! For the many this makes no sense too, look at your Gov.
The irony is getting quite old, quite fast. When will the gay and lesbian community realize that they are practicing the very intolerance that they say they are campaigning against? A privately owned organization has the right to set the rules and parameters of that organization. If they choose to be a Christian group teaching family values, which means the gay community doesn't qualify to join, that is their right to form such a group. Just like the gay and lesbian community can form an equal group with different rules and parameters that disqualify heterosexuals. No one has the right to tell a privately owned organization how to run their business other than that organization's own owner (or owners). The intolerance shown by the gay and lesbian community in situations like this one are exactly why more people aren't accepting of them. It's their way or they'll scream and cry because they aren't getting their way. Does that sentence make you think of something else? Sure. Toddlers do that, but they are taught that life isn't fair and we don't always get our way. Those toddlers grow up, and with maturity, always getting their way becomes a non-issue because they learn that life doesn't work that way. Unfortunately it makes the gay and lesbian community look like they need to grow up since they are behaving the exact same way. That isn't said with venom or hatred, I frankly don't care what someone's sexual preference is, I'm simply speaking the truth. Contrary to what the gay and lesbian community falsely thinks, they have zero right to tell a privately owned organization how to run that organization. And they are vehemently practicing the very intolerance they say they are trying to fight against. That hurts their cause a whole lot more than it helps it.
The gays are tolerant of this, the Millennials aren't. We have had our chain yanked for the last time regarding the BS highschool lessons that bigotry in America was over. We intend to see it done.
More like an unChristian group teaching homophobic hatred!
Its a shame this "private" group has cheerfully accepted public support since its beginning.
if they were truly private that would be different.. but they discriminate against legal, taxpaying americans..while cheerfully accepting support from them. hypocritical.
University of Chicago Student - Gays aren't tolerant or we wouldn't be discussing this since this story never would have happened. They aren't even showing intelligence, fairness, or understanding either. They are throwing a temper tantrum and demanding their way, even though they are wrong to even think to demand what they are demanding. The humor of it has worn off though, now they just look silly.
sea2see - I like chocolate ice cream with chocolate chips. Does that mean I "hate" vanilla? Your logic makes no sense.
vermontguy - "Legal" and "taxpaying" don't apply to this situation because neither come into play. People have donated and will continue to donate, but it is up to each individual to research a company/organization and decide if their values match up to their own.
The Chicago student doesn't represent all millenials. See the irony in the student's position? The student thinks it's okay to decide things when they have the majority someday, but when the shoe is on the other foot, not so much.
eph521 - Oh the irony is amusing, that's for sure. Doesn't want majority rule now, but wants it when millennials will be the majority. What the Chicago student doesn't realize is that people in general, of all ages, are getting sick and tired of the country changing to suit vocal minorities when those minorities are wrong on issues, like this one. That is the majority that will make decisions and keep people like Chicago student whining and crying. The Boy Scouts will probably get record donations for not cowering down on this subject, because people are sick and tired of the crying and whining and want Americans to quit bending to ridiculous demands/positions like this one.
What, you mean someone actually thinks it's okay to end bigotry, but not to perpetuate it? And other people won't smilingly accept bigotry and discrimination against themselves? My word, how hypocritical and ironic! You two certainly are perceptive and intelligent!
Ash Plissken - Actually, the gay and lesbian community are perpetuating the bigotry in this situation, just as they are with Chick-Fil-A. Both organizations are free to support traditional marriage. It's the gay and lesbian community trying to trample the rights of others for an imaginary right that they made up out of thin air and gave to themselves. No one has a "right" to join a private organization (not even heterosexuals), no matter how much the gay and lesbian community wishes they could force their way in. The disrespect, intolerance, and lack of understanding the group is showing should make them all ashamed of themselves. In a perfect world, there would be no bigotry, but the gay and lesbian community won't allow that to happen. They are far bigger bigots than the heterosexual majority at this point. And actions like these only turn people against them, it hurts their goal, and won't get them what they want. Until they realize that, bigotry will exist.
Buff Daddy, I sure hope you don't hope to be taken seriously, as yours are some of the dumbest arguments I have seen on this board, and THAT is saying a lot. People are intolerant because they don't want to be discriminated against? Seriously? Amazing. And that's just ONE of your inane statements.
Yay, up-is-down projection from far-right "conservatives" (actually, extremists): gay folks perpetuate bigorty against themselves . . . because they protest the active and systematic discrimination against them as equal humans who deserve the same respect and opportunities as any other human/citizen/adult/etc. - regardless of color, genetic background or other fundamental aspects of their lives that are given to them at birth. By actually showing the fearful haters for who they are - a bunch of scared, me-too bullies who don't want to be seen by their friends/neighbors/fellow churchgoers as tolerant or even considerate of the beleaguered minority du jour, lest they be ostracized for being reasonable and not subscribing 100% to embedded cultures which feel superior to all others - gay folks are threat to their own existence! Amazing logic there, Buff Daddy.
And, I've heard it before. I was once inculcated as a conservative and spoke out against gays during an impressionable time when younger, then fortunately realized that discrimination and the fear associate with it were not my values at all, and certainly not fair or admirable. Quite the opposite. It was a shameful period of my life from a cultural perspective, though fortunately lasted only a short time.
So, I understand the projection of your own issues on others, the absolute belief that you are correct and all others wrong, the fear of being seen as someone not a member of your superior little tribe . . . it's a common affliction among those who fall for "conservative" values too strongly, for whatever reason. It picks sides and in spouting extremes, being unfair and generally puffing up your own self-image as a member of the elite cultural group, then blames others for noticing in public that your subscribed "movement" is not actually wearing any clothes.
Objectively, you discriminate and cannot find the strength to be fair and honest on points such as this. You show evidence of completely defending a hateful position as if a highly select misreading of the generally disregarded Leviticus books actually pertains to the teachings of Jesus in the Christian religion, while disregarding all the other extreme-sounding edicts contained therein. It's about finding excuses to rationalize your mean, intolerant position - even if it causes you to lie about others and project your behaviors upon them. Because you must be right, your cultural views must be correct, at every turn. Always. Otherwise, you fear being left to fend in the larger society by yourself, losing he friendships of your likewise duped friends because this kind of culture stands for nothing but total conformity.
Sad work, Buff Daddy. But, I guess someone has to do it so we can see examples of the "old world values" that need to eventually be bleached into dust by the light of day. You're doing us a favor by the caricature you present. "Us" being the folks with more sense of free will and willingness to accept people for who they naturally are, while remaining vigilant against the violent and hateful among us.
Left Wing Nut Job - No better argument, so all you've got is insults. No surprise there. The gay and lesbian community doesn't qualify for the Boy Scouts. I don't qualify as a lightweight boxer. Am I too being discriminated against, or is it simply the way private organizations set up their rules? In your world, every single living being is being discriminated against in multiple fashions every single day. Must be awful to be you.
ooofest - I find it interesting that you accuse me of thinking I'm superior when your entire tone drips of the exact same thing. Just like the gay and lesbian community huh? Ok for them to be intolerant, while they preach intolerance is bad. And projecting hatred? You're either quite the comedian or don't know the definition of the word hate. What I said was facts, not emotion. Only the simple minded get emotional on a message board. I'm no one special, just a voter, like any other. While your long-winded post provided some entertainment value, it really is nothing more than insults, which proves you simply have no merits to argue anything for your side on this.
Buff Daddy, perhaps you need to go back and read your own posts...including the one above. Seems a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Facts and opinions are two different things, by the way, but you may not be aware of that.
Bitch all you want......once the Millennials run the organization, this nonsense will stop. We are tired of excuses previous generations have used to hate different groups. This is why I am keeping my badge. All we have to do is wait, and nothing you do can change that.
And if/when that happens, there will be many others who will leave the BSA and turn in their badges. Sound familiar?
He's right. People on both sides are just plain terrible.
My nephew is an Eagle Scout and as part of his application he asked me to write a letter as a religious person in his life since I am his God-mother. I am very proud of his accomplishment but as it stands now I am ashamed of the organization which gave it. Many Christens do not feel that homosexuals should be discriminated against, and the BSA to me is a bunch of homophobic neo Nazis and I will encourage my nephew to return his award.
To discriminate against boys of any sexual orientation is unacceptable!
Actually, I met more atheists in the BSA than anywhere else. Great folks.
So then, why would you or anyone else want to be part of such a terrible organization?
I would assume that the Boy Scouts are talk that the probability of an HIV infection is almost 50% for a homosexual male.
Huh?
I was an Eagle and am Embarresed to say so. And because of the BSA views I will not ever hire an Eagle Scout that does not believe in FREEDOM.
More power to you Leo. That's your choice. Ironic that you're doing the same thing you say is so wrong for the BSA to do.
Here is my friend Max's video that he posted on youtube as to why he is returning his eagle uniform.
The ABSURDLY BIASED headline uses the words "split" and "divided"?
"Split" and "divided" are being specifically used to intentionally infer, suggest or imply a "somewhat even disagreement" or something resembling a 50-50 split is a "fair and reasonable implication" of this issue?
NOTHING could be further from the truth.
One can only PITY anyone who is IGNORANT ENOUGH to get suckered in to such nonsensical, biased reporting, only done to serve some idiotic political agenda.
While there obviously are "a few scouts, here and there" who disagree with the BSA position... the media is drawing a MONUMENTALLY incorrect conclusion that is no where NEAR any sense of the truth.
The better words to use are "ratio" and/or "percentage"... but of course, the article COMPLETELY AVOIDS those words because ratio and/or percentage would "easily highlight" just how LITTLE disagreement actually exists.
In considering the MILLIONS of BSA members out there in contrast to the "mere handfuls" of those who may disagree... the "suggestion or use of the word 'SPLIT' is as absurd and ridiculous as anything ever written.
Those who 'disagree with ANY PRIVATE ORGANIZATION's rights to set their own standards" have EVERY RIGHT to "not support any group they disagree with and to create their own organization, based on their own principles".
NOTHING about the "Standards and principles of the BSA is NEW information" and ANY PERSON who joined KNEW EXACTLY what the BSA stood for... period."
To create this controversy AFTER THE FACT is laughable.
Change the policy to read JEW or BLACK then argue how right it is.
As and EAGLE with 3 palms, there is no way I can justify it based on what I was taught in my troop.
Actually, there are more than likely many gays who are members of the BSA. The BSA does not ask about sexual preference prior to joining their organization.
The BSA does have the right to terminate membership to those who create a distraction from their mission. They have taken a stance that it is up to the parents to teach their children about same-sex relationships at a time and place they choose to be appropriate. I am certain that most parents would agree that those kind of lessons should be taught at home.
Just like lessons about heterosexual relationships should be taught at home. In fact, one of the Eagle-required merit badges my son is working on (Family Life) requires a family talk about issues including finances, technology, substance abuse, and sex. It's not up to the Scoutmasters to teach this. It's up to the family. It's not like the scouts have homosexual and heterosexual boys get up and lead powerpoints on sexuality.
I know- lets get both fags and priests to be camp conselors and scout leaders. Then we can open muslum church camps and be one happy family. We will all live together and even embrace the dumb ass mexicans that keep pourning over the border with their drugs and stupid asses that stop in the middle of the aises at Wallmart. WTF is up with the mexicans stopping right in the fuc8ing middle of the isles? It is as bad as the black guys that strool across the street real slow to show whitey in his car he worked hard for that they are in charge- not that a black guy would not work for a car- but it is most likly they would just jack one for a ride-
You obviously have some REAL problems - thanks for letting everybody know.
Another helping of that sweet kristian love and understanding I keep hearing so much about...
Wow feeling the pinch of diversity in what was once a white male dominated society?
Muslims kill gays. I don't think that would be a compatibility.