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John Makely / NBC News
Jenna Glazer, left, with her wife, Elise Bacolas outside family court in Brooklyn. The couple was celebrating Glazer's adoption of their 5-month-old daughter, Maya, whom Bacolas gave birth to through artificial insemination. The couple married last year on July 24, the day same-sex marriages became legal in New York.
NEW YORK -- Jenna Glazer had long waited for the moment she would legally become the second mom to her infant daughter, Maya, erasing any uncertainty about her ties to the child she had with her wife.
That day came in mid-July, just before Glazer marked the one-year anniversary of her wedding to Elise Bacolas, Maya’s other mom, on July 24, when same-sex marriage became legal in their home state of New York.
After a few minutes before a family court judge in Brooklyn, the adoption was approved, and a beaming Glazer held up Maya in the air as loved ones offered congratulations and cheers. No longer would the name of Maya’s second parent be blank on her birth certificate.
“It’s the same thing like with marriage, you know. We were committed for 12 years, but being married felt differently,” Glazer, 40, said through tears outside the court in mid-July. “The minute that she was born, I thought that she was mine, but it feels really nice. It feels really nice to have it final.”
The couple is one of many across the country who are raising some 2 million children in same-sex households, according to advocacy and research groups. But though the path across the marital threshold is easing for same-sex couples, they are still facing a complex route to parenthood.
For lesbian couples, donor insemination is one option, though potentially expensive, while for gay couples, some choose surrogacy, though that can cost more than $100,000 and is clearly allowed only in some states, advocates and researchers say.
With those challenges, the more common way to become a parent today is through fostering or adoption, but some states explicitly ban same-sex couples from doing so, said Laura Deaton, policy research director at the Movement Advancement Project, a think tank focused on the LGBT community.
“The complexity and the difference in state law is what renders LGBT parenthood very uncertain and challenging,” Deaton said. Even states geographically next to one another, such as Iowa and Nebraska, “couldn’t have laws that are farther from each other in terms of how they define marriage and family.”
Twenty states and the District of Columbia allow same-sex couples to obtain stepparent or second parent adoptions (which is what Glazer did), according to the American Civil Liberties Union.
But in at least one state where they don’t, North Carolina, the existing legal parent would have to give up their parental rights for an adoption to occur. Same-sex couples are suing to overturn that ban.
Courtesy of Statia Grossmam
Jenna Glazer , left, and Elise Bacolas with their daughter Maya when she was two days old.
“Many of our families carry huge packets of paperwork with them any time that they travel so they have their powers of attorney for each other, so that they have their guardianship papers or adoption judgments,” Deaton said. “Most families don’t think twice about proving that a child is theirs, but LGBT families are constantly in fear that they are not going to be able to do so.”
Deaton said her organization had found that the tough impediments to becoming parents for same-sex couples hadn’t dictated where they live. But Glazer, a director at a nonprofit helping young women with breast cancer, and Bacolas, a senior project manager at an online marketing firm, said they couldn’t imagine leaving their supportive corner of Brooklyn, where they recently joined a play group for same-sex families.
“... we hope for people to see that progress is going to happen whether they like it or not, and that it’s really time to stop thinking that it’s OK to discriminate against people,” Glazer said. “People are going to have families whether people agree with it or not. We’re going to love each other whether people agree with it or not. And instead of creating divisiveness and discord and anger and hate … be a part of a positive change.”
The couple is hoping that the shifts in attitudes toward same-sex families will come nationwide before Maya can understand the differences, and recent polls show that may already be taking place.
A Pew Research Center survey published Thursday found a steady increase in support for allowing gays and lesbians to adopt children, from 38 percent in favor in 1999 compared with 57 percent opposed, to 52 percent in support in 2012 and 42 percent against.
“In many ways divisions in views about gay adoption mirror those of gay marriage,” Pew said in its analysis. “People who believe that gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry legally also tend to believe gay and lesbians should be allowed to adopt children. And people who oppose allowing gays and lesbians to marry often also oppose allowing them to adopt.”
Support for same-sex marriage has continued to grow, too. In May, a Gallup poll found that 50 percent of Americans believe same-sex marriage should be legal and bestow the same rights as traditional marriage, compared to 48 percent who don’t. It was the second time in the poll’s history that a majority of Americans supported same-sex marriage.
The Supreme Court is also expected to take up one of the few cases that have made it through the lower courts, where judges have separately ruled that California’s ban on gay marriage and denial of federal benefits to same-sex couples are unconstitutional.
But supporters of marriage between a man and a woman have vowed to continue to push for constitutional amendments that define marriage as such. They recently won such a vote in North Carolina in May, bringing to 31 the number of states that ban same-sex marriage, and are campaigning to overturn same-sex laws in Maryland and Washington.
Appeals court: Denying federal benefits to same-sex couples is unconstitutional
Conservatives target Republicans who back gay marriage
Same-sex couple fights to stop deportation, gay marriage ban
Obama: 'I think same-sex couples should be able to get married'
Prop 8 backers ask Supreme Court to review gay marriage ban
Same-sex marriage foes celebrate 'Chick-fil-A day'
At the Bacolas-Glazer home on a recent evening, the couple alternately tended to Maya, who babbled and smiled often, and later watched her on a night-vision monitor after putting her in her crib as they talked about their path to parenthood.
On their first try at donor insemination a few months before same-sex marriage became legal in New York, Bacolas became pregnant. They began the adoption process when Bacolas was six months pregnant, and had to go through a home evaluation with a social worker, submit to a background check and supply letters of recommendation and good health (Glazer, a three-time cancer survivor, had to get a letter from her oncologist), among other things.
Though second parent adoptions are allowed in New York, making it less difficult compared to other states where it is not, it still was not a simple process and showed their commitment to having a child, the couple said.
“You have to go out of your way to create this family, and that just goes to show how much we want it and how much we fight to get here should speak volumes to the fact that we want … to have a family and we are a family,” Bacolas, 40, later said outside the court.
Jerry Ruotolo / Courtesy of Jerry Ruotolo
Glazer and Bacolas on their wedding day on July 24, 2011.
The couple said they hoped that such heated and hard discussions they hear in the national discourse today about same-sex families would soon be a thing of the past, or take on an increasingly positive tone, as Maya grows up.
“When she is old enough to understand the news, if this discussion is still going on, I think it’s difficult not to take that personally. I don’t want her to grow up thinking that there’s something wrong with her family or that she has to be worried what if something happens to one of her mommies,” Glazer said. “I really hope she doesn’t have to hear it and feel that her family isn’t as good as another family because ... we are and she’s lucky, she’s got two parents who love her.”
Comments? Questions? You can email the reporter at miranda.leitsinger@msnbc.com
Leave a Comment:
I guess the sperm consummating the egg would be the first big hurdle.
jstdafacts: The fact is Christ never said a word about homosexuality or pedophilia.
Jesus is God and He abhors this great sin. He has said plenty, rest assure my friend.
And Christopher Cringle is the almighty Santa Claus so you better watch out!!!!!
That's correct. He did however warn about sin. We have to be "overcomers" in this life. The question to all of us is, "Who is Jesus?" Once we answer that correctly, hopefully we accept Him then by Faith, and the work of Holy Spirit begins. Our minds are opened. We for example are taught to walk obediently. We are suppose to demonstrate what Grace is. If we're really Christians, then, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, temperance, etc. (find out what that means). God's Holiness grows in those of us who are sold out to Him in this amazing walk. Find out what God's Holiness means. In fact, READ the Word of God. Ask Him to reveal it to you, and He who is Faithful, will.
The actual existence of Jesus can not even be proven. The myth of Jesus and the virgin birth is simply a re-conjured story from ancient times.
Why is it that none of the scriptures from the bible contain testament from anyone who actually even knew Jesus?
Do you have proof of this statement Jeezus?
The second hurdle will be explaining why little Johnny can't go to Chick Filet day on bring your real Daddy to the school field trip. How awkward and confusing for an impressionable young mind.
Read Romans chapter 1 verses 18 thru 32
My parents told me there is no such thing as an imaginary friend.
Then they drug me to church every time the doors opened to learn to talk to their imaginary friend.
Hypocrites..........
I have a very fine community of imaginary friends that are much better than your googly-face-space-twitter-book so called friends.
Yes he has and one thing he told me just this morning is that you are f*cking nuts. Then we had a good laugh and after that he gave me the lottery numbers.
Rev,He did talk against homosexuality. I don't think you know what your talking about.
When you have to resort to "faith" rather than reality and facts to bolster your reasons for being anti-gay you have already lost the argument, especially given that Christianity is a minority religion in that most people on the planet don't even believe in it's tenets. Saying you are against same sex adoptions because the parents are inherently "sinners" according to your "faith" isn't just arrogant and majorly judgmental, it's also completely out of touch with reality.
Fedup; Jeez can't answer too well this early. He was up late at the pickle bar.
Thats ok, Im patient
Fed up...
What proof do i need? The existence of the virgin birth stories go back to the 4th century bc to the Mithra. The story of Jesus is such an obvious copy. Do the research, there is ample information at the tips of your fingers on Mithra. I believe the burden of proof is on your side. The Romans were pretty good record keeps and there are apparently no records of Jesus's existence. How come there aren't any scriptures available from people who actually knew Jesus? Why is the gospel of Mark was written in 70 AD?
I believe YOU made the statement, therefore, the burden of proof is on YOU
Actually, the burden of proof is on those who claim that Jesus lived, let alone that he's the son of a diety.
The facts are:
1. Freedom of Religion is a right for all Americans.
2. God or Jesus are not mentioned anywhere in the US Constitution.
3. Our leaders take an oath to serve, protect, and defend the US CONSTITUTION, not the Bible.
4. SCOTUS has already ruled more than once on the separation of church from state: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html
5. Religious BELIEFS ARE NOT secular laws of the United States of America.
6. This country was founded on FREEDOM from Religious Tyranny
JeezusismyDog
You must not keep up on your reading. There is an excellent book, "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses," which details many indicators in the NT writings about eyewitnesses alive at the time of the writings. It was written by Professor Richard Bauckham (Univ. of St. Andrews) and I heard about it from a professor at the University of Chicago. It is taken quite seriously in the academic world.
JeezusismyDog: "Why is it that none of the scriptures from the bible contain testament from anyone who actually even knew Jesus?"
1. The disciples expected Jesus to come again soon. They saw no need to produce a written record for posterity's sake.
2. In Jesus' era, testimonies were often passed from person to person via "oral tradition".
3. When it became clear to the early Christian community that Jesus was not returning soon, they then decided to preserve his life in a written record.
Nothing wrong with being an "opponent", JeezusismyDog, but you should be an "informed" opponent.
I think that Jesus actually existed. However, I do not believe the virgin birth story because it does not appear in the Book of Mark, the first written gospel.
Pretty much like the authors of the New Testament in that they all heard about it too from one authority or another who pledged it was absolutely true what they themselves had heard from another authority and so-on and so-on...not one author was alive at the time Jesus was supposed to have lived - which basically makes the New Testament a collection of hearsay and not even admissible in a court of law.
BLAH BLAH BLAH - Enough of trying to educate these Wrong Wing Chic Fellater types. VERY soon, Marriage Equality WILL be the Law Of The Land, and these Fil-Aholes will be on the wrong side of history, left clutching their sad little To Go sacks of greasy self rightousness, forever and ever, amen.
Like those scum who tried to block the black kids at school house doors, they should be ashamed of themselves. One wonders if they will be bragging to their grandchildren 20 years from now about how back in 2012 they treated their fellow American Citizens of the United States of America with liberty and justice for all.
The facts are obvious here. The child will be raised in an environment where the values of family are at best distorted. The child will be taught values inconsistent with the teachings of the Church's. Please have enough sense to recognize the comment is not about hate as it is often severely confused to be. If you are a non-believer, note that evolution would have made a very abrupt change long ago if pairing of same sexes had been the norm.
For all of those that are so opposed to Chick-Fil-A, you might want to stop using any and all oil products. As hard as it is to accept, the origin of much of our oil comes from Arab States where the Muslim beliefs of Islam abhor and condemn venomously any act of homosexuality. This could have a significant influence on the evolution side of things. Over time, the body will change to better accommodate walking vs any reasonable and more advanced form of transportation. This could influence quality of life greatly. Imagine, no school bus, no ambulance, no car, no travel via boat or airplane/jet, no Vaseline, etc. In the realm of things, it is safe to say the values of Mr. Cathy whom does not support the gay marriage is much less invasive on the gay lifestyle than the believers of Islam. There really is a difference between opinion and reality. Mr. Cathy exhibited no act of hate unlike many others have, even in the homosexual community.
Often people will attempt to conceal their real intent of deviant sexual behaviour through excuse and disguise like the recent Cult Followers we are now seeing come to justice. All people that deviate from the norm of things will always be in search of acceptance. It's human nature that causes us to seek acceptance from our peers.
Culheath - I bought and read the book as well. You want me to send you a copy - give me your address. You can read for yourself. The writings were not passed down over many generations as was commonly taught.
This is blatantly false and even the most liberal critics would hold that Paul wrote some of the writings in the years AD 56 to 66 and since he would have been born about AD 5 he was a direct contemporary of Jesus. The Gospel writers may well have been alive during Jesus' life, as Bauckham points out. People alive in the time of Christ (circa AD 33) could easily have still been alive in AD 70.
Raging Capitalist
So... if an Islamic American Citizen (one that pays their taxes etc) has a child, is that child in trouble because it will not be raised in consistent with the teachings of your church? What if that family is Hindu or Buddhist? Your church is not the official religion of this country, and its time you accept that. You can practice whatever religion you want, but you do NOT have the right to ENFORCE those beliefs on anyone else.
For all of you who are oblivious to the head chicken flipper REAL Agenda., I suggest you do your homework. I could care less about his freedom of speech and freedom of religion. But when a man gives MILLIONS to hate organizations, is when I draw the line. Do your homework and try to understand the full story.
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/gaysouthflorida/2012/08/equality-florida-chick-fil-a-has-donated-more-than-5-million-to-groups-that-dehumanize-lgbt-people.html
So if you ate at CFA, you just supported this man's msg of HATE.
It's garbage...especially since the average life span of people at that time was around 40.
Oh, and Paul was a lunatic, recognized even by his contemporaries and to say he was a contemporary of Jesus infers he ever met him, which he did not...so the hearsay change stands.
When was the last time you spoke with God about this?
Debating religion like ping pong, LOL. Find out in the end.
The actual facts are that you are using Church doctrine to rationalize bigotry which is all too frequently the case in these posts.
Religious thinking is "magical" thinking which cannot be corroborated by any test in the real world and therefore should never be used to demonstrate the validity of human behavior of any sort outside the confines of the religion itself. It has no meaning for people outside of the context of the faith involved. The churches values are certainly not my values and any parallels that might arise are purely coincidental.
If you want to discuss the merits of same sex parenting then it must be done using evidence and reasoning with no appeal to religious thinking since religious thinking is not universal and therefore cannot be used in any meaningful public policy discussion.
In Nature, the male does not stay around to raise the offspring because often they are dangerous and murderous. Polar bears, for example, will kill the babies for food. In the monkey kingdom, baby monkeys are raised by a community of females. Nature pays no attention to the social mores and the condemning attitudes of narrow-minded bible-thumpers. Seems only natural that a lesbian couple should raise their babies without benefit of a male influence.
The media's "bias' towards the sodomite lifestyle is pathetic. There are no longer real journalists anymore...just mindless sheep, who bleat along with, and PUSH whatever the newest, unfairly promoted trend of the day is. "Special" rights are the word of the day, with the "masses" no longer being protected by the Constitution. Welcome to the new nation of "Sodom and Gomorrica".
@RagingCapitalist
So TRUE, these children will be brought up with their parents (two women or two men) teaching them TOLERANCE of others...
Tolerance is inconsistent with the teaching's of the Church.....
This makes me laugh especially all these Bible quoters. What they do not realize is King James had the bible created to control the masses. Since most did not or could not read then they relied on the clergy to come up with something so they could see being under control of a "King/Queen" was a good idea and that following rules was the way to some path to salvation.
The bible was made up from 3 languages, does this really makes sense a book supposedly made from the desiples of Jesus speaking these languages and then writing their chapter in that language and hmmmmmmm just so happens that these "books/chapters" magically end up in the same place.
One of the 3 languages (Ancient Hebrew, Ancient Greek, and a dead language Aremaic) was no longer being spoken. So with any of the three especially Aremaic words at times were changed to fit what King James wanted but to also allow the book to makes sense when they could not find the meaning of the word. The bible is still being changed to fit the words of today. If you tried to read one of the originally translated versions of the bible in the English of the times, guess what, you could not because the launguage has evolved.
The bible is a great book of fiction as is the koran (which changes frequently today).
So all this claim homosexuality is wrong and so fourth is b.s. They should have the rights because they are people, sexuality does not matter. It has also shown just because a child is raised in a homosexual relationship does not mean the child will turn out homosexual. Being homosexual, heterosexual is inherent not taught. Acceptance is taught.
It's About Time and Culheath,
Are you telling me the United States of America was not founded under the Judea Christian beliefs? Were the Fore Fathers of America believers in the Islamic, Buddhist, or Hindu Religions. Are you telling me that the Buddhist's and Hindu condone homosexuality? I know you are trying to get a message across. I look forward to a bit more substance.
Or, are you telling me your answer relies on the same mindset as Adam Smith? If you find a more well lit opening for your heads and read what you wrote you may find a significant level of personal opinion full of spite and hate. In support of your cause and my reckless consideration for your views, I would like to offer my support and assistance to you by forwarding all of my worn out shoes to you so you may carry on your mission.
For all of those that are so opposed to Chick-Fil-A, you might want to stop using any and all oil products. As hard as it is to accept, the origin of much of our oil comes from Arab States where the Muslim beliefs of Islam abhor and condemn venomously any act of homosexuality. This could have a significant influence on the evolution side of things. Over time, the body will change to better accommodate walking vs any reasonable and more advanced form of transportation. This could influence quality of life greatly. Imagine, no school bus, no ambulance, no car, no travel via boat or airplane/jet, no Vaseline, etc. In the realm of things, it is safe to say the values of Mr. Cathy whom does not support the gay marriage is much less invasive on the gay lifestyle than the believers of Islam. There really is a difference between opinion and reality. Mr. Cathy exhibited no act of hate unlike many others have, even in the homosexual community.
Feel free to address the Hate Groups! Do you suppose your mission is a bit single minded?
Jumbo shrimp
First-strike defense
Honest Lawyer
Tax Return
Paperless Office
Act naturally
Found missing
Working vacation
Clearly misunderstood
Genuine imitation
Political Science
Government Organization
Military Intelligence
Temporary Tax Increase
Peacekeeping Force
Microsoft Works
Business Ethics
Honest Politician
Resident alien
Heartfelt Politics
Realistic liberal
Holy war
Government assistance
A fine mess
Peaceful war
Tactical mass destruction
Friendly fire
Democratic dictatorship
Strangely normal
Lead astray
Original copy
Real fake
Paid volunteer
Old news
Great Depression
gay parenthood
Seriously funny
Just another in a growing list of Oxymorons...
For all you Bible-thumpers out there - yes, you have a right to believe whatever you wish, but you really need get get down off your soapboxes and stopping judging others who do not believe what you believe. Just like you, we all have the right to our own beliefs, and the right to live our lives however we wish.
Perhaps you need to focus on being a better person yourself, loving, tolerant and selfless, instead of deciding whether others are sinners.
Raging -
Often people will attempt to conceal their real intent of deviant sexual behaviour through excuse and disguise like the recent Cult Followers we are now seeing come to justice. All people that deviate from the norm of things will always be in search of acceptance. It's human nature that causes us to seek acceptance from our peers.
So missionary is the only way for you? Do you produce a child each time you do it? If you don't you're doing it wrong. Ever go solo, isn't that deviant? Who is to say what is deviant behavior? As long as it isn't with children and no one gets hurt (provided they don't want to) it's none of your business, nor is it the governments' business.
Bringing the church into this is losing argument since the church is built on fantasy and magical thinking, hardly logic of reason.
It's been my experience that people who deviate from the norm are the ones who make great strides in this world. And none, that I know, look to be accepted.
carolart,
That is much too reasonable a post for this thread, aside from the reference to "bible-thumpers." The hatred and intolerance comes from both directions.
Raging Capitalist
I've already stated my comment. Please show me any state or federal law or supreme court ruling that establishes Christianity as the religion of the United States of America. You have your freedom of religion, but I also have my freedom FROM your religion as does every other American.
Doesn't Christianity consider those of the islamic faith to be hysterics? If we follow that ideology, you need to stop using any products that come from an islamic nation. If you also believe that being homosexual is a sin, you should stop using your computer (IBM, Apple, and Microsoft) all support gay marriage. Stop eating (General Mills, Pepsi, Coke, KFC, Pizza Hut and others) support gay marriage. Do not use the internet to shop or search (Google, Amazon, JCPenny, Target, Macys, all support gay marriage), Do not bathe (Proctor and Gamble #1 consumer product company in the world support gay marriage. Do not drink coffee (stay away from Starbucks), the list goes on and on.
Mr Cathy SUPPORTS hate organizations. Read the article.
Again, you are entitled to your religious beliefs, as are anyone else. However, I and the rest of the United States are NOT required to follow them.
Remember.. god doesn't preach hatred and bigotry... that is learned here.
I believe you are claiming the existence of a deity and the incarnation of his will as Jesus in this earth for those puropses.
Prove that Jesus ever existed and that that he is the son of god.
http://www.livescience.com/6073-children-raised-lesbians-fine-studies-show.html
Oops...
I,m OK with this as long as it it two females I think they will do a good job. Two men no way they do some nasty things .
To: ItsAboutTime
Regarding your separation of God and government, the word of God says the following:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (Romans 13:1-7)
Tell me, in court, how is everyone sworn in? Right up and left hand on the bible, "I do swear to tell the whole truth So help me God."
What is printed on US money? "In God we Trust"
God's will is first over everything, including civil rights, meaning that his word takes precedence over mans' laws. Just because a government or group of people vote something into law, does not mean that it is acceptible to God. In this case, same-sex marriage has been voted in to several states and those responsible will pay the penalty for disobeying God's word, as will those who are practicing and supporting a same-sex life style.
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." (Rev.3:20)
Open the door while he is still knocking.
I support same-sex marriage, think Chick-fil-A Appreciation Days are pretty stupid (although I like Chick-fil-A,) believe Jesus would have treated gays with dignity, and people who hurl Bible verses often don't know what they are talking about. Yet, there is something about gay parenthood I have trouble accepting. There are plenty of heteros who make terrible parents, but that is not the argument. Children need to learn from both sexes as they grow up. They just don't have it in a gay household.
Don-816006
Where is the word of god mentioned in the Constitution? Where does it say I must consult god before I pay my taxes? If god told me it was okay to steal, would I not go to jail? I am not required by law to submit to your view of god, and my constitutional rights protect that.
There is NO LAW that says you must say "I swear to tell the whole truth so help you god". That is a tradition: http://www.religioustolerance.org/shmg.htm
I believe the words "in god we trust" on our currency is against the US Constitution, but in truth, the supreme court has NOT YET ruled in that manner.
P.S. In Virginia, people once said that GOD does not approve of inter racial marriage and it was law. The US Supreme Court declared that unconstitutional. I support freedom of religion and your right to believe what you want, but that does NOT give you the right to impose your religious beliefs on me in the form of law.
To: The Truth and Nothing But the Truth:
You said:
"The disciples expected Jesus to come again soon. They saw no need to produce a written record for posterity's sake."
Rebut:
The disciples are not the reason that the OT or NT was written, but they wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. For the word of God states that all Scripture is God-breathed. Jesus knew that everthing that he said and did was going to be written as can be seen from what he said in the following verse:
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—LET THE READER UNDERSTAND—"
In the above verse Jesus is quoting from the book of Daniel and regarding the prophecy of the abomination of desolation he says, "Let the reader understand," showing that he knew that people would be reading what he was teaching.
You said:
" I do not believe the virgin birth story because it does not appear in the Book of Mark, the first written gospel."
Rebut:
"Though the vigin birth may not be mentioned in Mark, it is mentioned in the other gospels and specifically prophecied of in Isaiah 7:14, which was written several hundred years prior to Jesus being born:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Immanuel means God with us)
JeezusismyDog: "Why is it that none of the scriptures from the bible contain testament from anyone who actually even knew Jesus?"
1. The disciples expected Jesus to come again soon. They saw no need to produce a written record for posterity's sake.
2. In Jesus' era, testimonies were often passed from person to person via "oral tradition".
3. When it became clear to the early Christian community that Jesus was not returning soon, they then decided to preserve his life in a written record.
Nothing wrong with being an "opponent", JeezusismyDog, but you should be an "informed" opponent.
I think that Jesus actually existed. However, I do not believe the virgin birth story because it does not appear in the Book of Mark, the first written gospel.
America is a secular nation. Feel free to worship whatever sky fairy you wish....but don't try push your delusions on the rest of us.
No, it is a common way to be sworn in...IF you are Christian. You can simply affirm that you are telling the truth. There is also no official "so help me god" at the end of the Inauguration statement the President makes. They can add that part IF they are religious.
What hurdles? All that they need do is to find some decent looking drunk guy in a bar around closing time and endure what comes naturally for most people.
Another option is a willing donor followed by the good old turkey baster.
Only if neither one of them wants to endure a pregnancy is legal adoption the remaining option assuming they won't resort to buying a black market baby.
Yup.
John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli, 1797
WRONG. Anyone can swear to tell the truth WITHOUT a bible in court; same for Presidential inaugurations, as well as ANY oath taken under governmental authority -- no bible is necessary.
Meaningless, as the Supreme Court has found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust#Controversy
The Constitution does not mention God, Jesus, the bible, or any other religious deity or text. Unfortunately for you christo-bigots, that means that God and the bible do not make our laws -- so keep YOUR bible-babble out of MY government!
No Erin, if you bring in facts and evidence you will scare him off!
Homosexuals both men and women should never never be allowed to have or raise a child. Also to those who say the Bible is just another book because it was written by man, if that is the case every book you read is fiction, from the childhood books to the ones who the so called greatest minds wrote, all is fiction. I read many books and I never seen the person who says they did it write it, therefore every thing in that book is fiction. Everthing written is fiction because the person who is the author did not sit on a pedestal in the middle of times square and everyone watched them write every single word. You can tell me that Paris, France exist but unless I actually go there to me it is merely fiction. I believe that the Holy Bible was put into the written word by men used as a vessel by God and because these men knew that it was God who spoke to them they wrote down every word exactly as God told them to without adding or taking away anything. You do not have to believe this but just because you do not agree with it does not mean it is false. No other book has withstood the test of time as the Bible has, It has been burned and banned and attempts made to change it, but the Word of God stands today as it did from the day it was written. All other books that have been found to be written many many years ago have been lost or preserved in some museum, but the Word of God continues the same today as it always has and always will until he say's that its over. That my friends are the true test that God is real and Jesus is real, and that Satan is real. It is to your peril that you will not except it.
Recently Elton John said he feels sad that his son will NEVER have a mommy. Herein lies the issue for me. There are many things we CAN DO, but there are many things we perhaps shouldn't do even though we want to. The reason a traditional marriage has a man and woman is because the body parts match and can potentially produce children. So to keep the human race going that is what was intended. On a social level influence from a man and a woman are very, very different and equally important. Many that are gay did in fact have a mom and I am sure would not like to imagine their life without one. Equally many gays had a dad and thus life without dad would have been very different. I am thinking of two gay friends I have, that I adore, that both are extremely close to their moms.
This shouldn't be about the wishes of gays to have children because they want to be parents and might be terrific parents. This should be about what is best for any child coming into the world. It doesn't matter that a child would have two moms, or two dads, it is that the child will be absent the other gender parent which seems sad as Elton has admitted.
@ jerry Are you asserting that everything in the bible is factual because you believe it. That my friend is faith, not fact. Your examples do not exactly hold water either. non fiction books can be proven to be non fiction. that is by nature the definition of non fiction. A fiction book on the other hand cannot be proven factual and by its nature cannot be non fiction. Not seeing the person who wrote it is irrelavant. Facts are facts because they can be proven. The bible, as nice a story as it might be, cannot be 100 percent confirmed by any evidence.Believing something is one thing, knowing it to be factual is another. Unless you personally knew the scores of authors of the bible personally you cannot vouch for their credibilty . And how can you claim that the word of god is as it was then, You have no idea what was thousands of years ago when god was talking to men .Your faith is your faith,not the rest of our fact.
I wish people would let this go, the idea of Jesus and Mithra
carm.org/christianity/bible/doesnt-religion-mithra-prove-christianity-false
From some one who is a non christian
sullivan-county.com/bush/travilocity1.htm
pleaseconvinceme.com/index/Is_Jesus_Simply_a_Retelling_of_the_Mithras_Myth
I hope the links work me being a new user , I left the WWW off of them. In case they dont work al you have to do is Google Jesus Mithra not the same , and you will find abundant information to discredit the wild belief of mithra and Jesus.
branxoz,
"The media's "bias' towards the sodomite lifestyle is pathetic."
Sodomite? Now there's a quaint word! I thought that word went out with the 19th. century. What other sorts of archaic expressions do you have in your vocabulary? Do you still call a "broom" a "besom" as in Shakespeare's day?
From Wikipedia on the Treaty of Tripoli:
And here's the footnote to the above quoting McHenry on his objection to Article 11:
And here is the Wikipedia article on James McHenry He was
It helps a great deal to know that there was some Christian dissent to that article among the leaders of the day, which otherwise gives the impression that it spoke for the entire founding generation.
From John Jay our first suprem court Justice
Its sad that people think our founding fathers wanted nothing to do with religion or it wasnt a big part of their life.
Erin NJ 2.49
Erin, I suspect you base your post on a scan of the constitution that didn't come up with any hits on God. However, if you read the US Constitution, as you discovered, you will not see the word " Creator", " God" or any other reference to God Acknowledged as you have mentioned. That's because the Constitution was written as a protection for the citizens from the government, placing limitations on its power that belongs to the citizens of a new nation and a formulation of how this government is to operate.
Now, the reason the word Creator wasn't mentioned in the constitution was due to the fact He had already been established as the main giver of all our human rights that only He could give, in the Founding Document already written;
The Declaration of Independence.
You need to do more than scan these documents, you need to actually read AND understand them.
Erin - Don't overplay your hand. Our Constitution and many aspects of our government reflect the words and thoughts of people of faith. The Constitution is built from many documents from the past.
The Mayflower Compact for example says ---
The Magna Carta contains the phrases
The First Charter of Virginia speaks of
For you to claim that Judeo-Christian beliefs have not expressed themselves in our Constitution and the framing of our United States government is blindness on your part.
ManWomanGod,
Jesus is not God. Jesus was supposedly the son of God (not true anyway). Please re-read your Bible.
@Jezzusismydog
Jesus was a real person but he was not a bastard and he had no super powers. He was just a mortal man. Jesus was not considered by all Christians to be divine until after the Council of Nicaea around 325 or so where they ratified the first version of the Bible.
RationalPoster,
We also have something called the Separation of Church and State that expressly prohibits the exercise of religious ideology fostered by a religion within our Government. As a country we accept everyone of all faiths or no faith. We are not a Christian nation. We are a nation of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Atheism, Judaism, Hinduism, Paganism, Wicca, and other such religions. No one religion can have more power that another because no one religion is our nationally forced or recognized religion.
To give any religion more power of another one is saying that the beliefs of that specific religion should be pressed onto everyone in the country regardless if they are practitioners of that religion or not. While the Constitution may be based on Christianity...
Edit timer was almost out. Continuing here:
While some of the Constitution may be based on Christianity it is also true that the Pilgrims and founding fathers were fleeing from England to escape the religious persecution and religious power trip that was happening there at that time.
They would not then travel halfway around the world and forge a new country that could fall prey to that same issue by claiming a religion could force itself onto others through the ability to create or have a hand in creating laws.
In this country all religions are equal in power, validity, and stature. No religion is more important than another. To be anything else is to be denying someone's first amendment right to freedom to exercise their right to practice a religion.
Hmmmm, on the one hand, gays and lesbians want everyone to recognise that they were born the way they are, therefore, the way nature intended them to be. OK, if we accept that then nature or what or whoever never intended them to procreate since that takes two opposite sex individuals. So if you want everyone else to accept your lifestyle as simply the result of nature than you have to accept childlessness as the same result of nature and not want dual acceptance. I was born gay but I want to procreate. Apparently not nature's plan so you either accept the way nature made you or don't expect the rest of us to accept it.
The words of Jesus do speak against homosexuality. He quoted Genesis in that 'God made them male and female' and that this creation was why a male and a female would come together and be one in marriage (Matt 19:4-6). To get anything else, creation must be corrupted and hence does not come from creation, nor God's work.
This is just like Jesus who pointed out a scripture in Exodus which does not label itself as being about the resurrection, does speak about the topic (Matt 22:31,32). Just because the topic being discussed in the srciptures is not about a certain topic, it does not mean other topics are not being answered.
Homosexuality is literally impossible to come from creation... because something must go wrong in order for it to exist. Homosexuality comes from corruption of creation. It is impossible to be good within any objective framework, only subjective frameworks... which means it is impossible to be held as objectively good, because that system can always be shown to be logically inconsistent.
As far as pointing to nature (not to be confused with a creation without corruption) if that is your standard.... you are accepting that everything is ok. A standard almost no one would accept. I can find many, many things practiced in nature that virtually no one would accept. But this pointing to practices in nature does show where homosexuality comes from...
I also enjoy the "It comes from love" argument. Its easy to show this folly... "I love evil". Does loving evil make it good? What we love is not a standard, but rather God who is love. Any "love" which is in opposition to Him and His creation is hate, not love. Homosexuality is hate towards God, not love.
For those not wanting God in their laws.... then you never get an objective morality for your laws. You never get "should do" but only "likes, dislikes, and useful for". So you are picketing and assembling over which flavor of icecream you prefer. Basically a tantrum. Shooting a person in the head and shaking his hand are both objectively morally equivalent: they are meaningless from that standard. One is just more useful towards promoting one's own likes. But there is never any reason to uphold those likes as anarchy is just as valid as society.
In other words... your objections are meaningless, it just happens to be a subjective flavor you prefer for no other reason than you like it.
Turn to Jesus, accept Him and what He has done. Deny yourself (not embrace yourself) and follow Him. Rely on His righteousness and not your own. And your ways of sin and evil will conform to His image through His grace. You will change from living by the flesh to living by the Spirit. But it comes at a price, because just as in this thread.... the world will hate you, just as it hates Him (John 7:7).
Here's a thought go find Ryan Locke for a one night stand.
You have made a choice to pursue a life that can not procreate so live with it...
I have a nephew and a friend who are homosexuals. They both know I love them, but, as a matter of principle and Christian belief, I cannot agree with their lifestyle.
It's been said that homosexual behavior is natural in the sense that it is extensively found in nature. It has been observed in: antelopes, boars, bulls, chimpanzees, cows, ducks, cats, dogs, fruit flies, geese, gorillas, gulls, horses, humans, rams, sheep, macaques, monkeys, turkeys and invertebrates Homosexuality exists in proven ratios in all mammal species....It is as natural as blue eyes, left-handedness, or the genetic predisposition to walk on two legs. Whiptail lizards, (Cnemidophorus neomexicanus) found in the American southwest, are all females. They reproduce by parthenogenesis. Unfertilized eggs develop, producing an exact clone of its mother. Even though no males exist, the females still exhibit sexual mating behavior. Those that attract a partner have been found to produce more and healthier eggs.
However, chemical imbalances and chromosomal disorders are ABNORMALITIES in nature. blue eyes, left-handedness, etc. are neither of these things, but simply inherent traits; they are part of our genetic makeup which was originally formed due to environmental conditions, but now is just code passed down through offspring. simply because it's found in nature doesn't mean it's natural. nature makes mistakes, to put it bluntly. defects, mutations, and abnormalities exist all through the animal (as well as plant)kingdom; some more apparent than others. human beings, as do most animals, have two sexes to further the species through procreation. we are predisposition to be attracted to the opposite sex in order to mate. since two members of the same sex cannot procreate, there is no biological reason for two like sexes to have a physical or chemical attraction to each other.
That said, there is no excuse in Christianity to hate homosexuals. We are commanded to love the sinner, but not the sin! Being born with a defect of any type creates a life of challenges in our unforgiving society. However, we know prayer changes things and homosexuals have been able to overcome their challenges, but like overcoming sin, it is never easy.
If Jesus was a real person and he performed such miracles as the scriptures proclaim, I would expect that proponents of religion would be able to provide better testament than "i heard it from a friend who, hear it from a friend".
I'm familiar with Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, an interesting work of fiction. Rather poor logic is employed along with blatant disregard for establishment of fact.
Christian scientists trying to utilize science to prove god and jesus are pathetic, poor science results when you take a solution and try to find a way to line up the facts to make your argument.
If they didn't believe Jesus' words, not too many people would be willing to die for those principles. The disciples were even willing to leave their families behind to go where Jesus told them.
Human nature doesn't change. Only if you really believe something to be true, are you willing to die for it. Out of the 11 disciples left behind, 10 were martyred and the 11th barely escaped with his life.
Are you saying that these 11 men all lied? If so, they did not recieve any compensation for their beliefs.
I'm going with incoherent there Jeezus. You make no sense at all.
Maybe you can can "line up the facts" and make your argument?
That is because a majority of these cases of child molestations among homosexual men go unreported. This story just came out in July 2012. Here's a little excerpt:
Bet you never would have heard of it, if not for me posting it!
Go ahead, look it up for yourself.
It's All Perspective, here is some more information from Wikipedia on Article 11 which you "conveniently" left out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_tripoli
And the ENTIRE Treaty -- including Article 11 -- is what appears in the Congressional Record.
Wet Willy, I am a former paralegal; in fact, I worked for some of the Watergate attorneys, as well as a former Solicitor-General of the US. I'm sure I've forgotten more about the Constitution than YOU will ever comprehend (which actually isn't saying much, but still true).
The reason no "Creator," or any god, Jesus, the bible, or any other religious text or entity is mentioned in the Constitution is because the Founding Fathers wanted to ensure that this country was founded upon, among other things, freedom OF and FROM religion, and that future generations were not subject to the same religious persecution they and/or their families had suffered.
Furthermore, the Declaration of Independence is simply the document that created this nation; it is not the foundation of our laws and government -- that is the Constitution, which specifically DOES NOT mention God, Jesus, the bible, or any other religious text or entity.
RP, the Mayflower Compact has nothing to do with the foundation of the United States. It is merely the document the Pilgrims used to set forth their intention to form a colony here, with the right to practice their religion as they wished, and to have self-government as part of Great Britain.
The Magna Carta mentions God, yet our Constitution does not -- and the Founding Fathers had a specific reason for that, as explained above. While our system of laws and government were based on, among other things, English Common Law and the Magna Carta, the founders did not simply copy every aspect of those systems to adopt here; they obviously had learned from the mistakes made by Great Britain.
The First Charter of Virginia mentions God -- also irrelevant. Many state charters and constitutions mention God, but that does not mean that we are a "Christian nation," or any such nonsense. Since the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land, what the individual states may say in their constitutions or other documents does not overrule the Constitution and its premise of separation of church and state.
BTW, many of the Founding Fathers were Deists, not strict Christians; in fact, they deeply mistrusted Christianity and organized religion. Have you ever heard of the "Jefferson bible"? Look it up. While they were men of faith, they were determined that their personal religious views and faith would not govern the lives of everyone else.
For you to claim that Judeo-Christian beliefs have expressed themselves in our Constitution and the framing of our United States government is blindness on your part, as well as stupidity.
Erin
Folks just love their ungodly lifestyles and in no way will condone anyone telling them about a God that they will answer to. It's true that our Nation was founded on Christian values but most have turned their backs on God and we're witnessing the results on a daily basis. Six years ago the percentage of people favoring same sex marriage was 36%, while today, it is 58%. Obama's flip flop on this issue has had a major impact on this increase.
WRONG. As John Adams said:
John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli, 1797
We are not now, and have never been, a "Christian nation".
BTW, the percentage of Americans who support equality was above 50% BEFORE Obama said anything about his support earlier this year.
One more thing: Obama actually said he supported same-sex marriage in 1996.
@Shaking my head-2479300
Nature never intend for us to do a lot of things, but through science, we did it anyway.
What's your point? Are we naturally allowed to fly? Travel around long distance at incredible speed?
Your argument already invalid the moment you used nature because guess what? Nature doesn't include religions as well.
@ Don 816006
There are those who believe in God, but not the Christian's Father, Son, and the Holy ghost. I don't even know what that @!$%# means. I was raised Catholic until I was 16 and realized Catholicism was a joke. I believe in the same God our Founding Fathers did ! I will NOT swear on a bible, and other arraignments are made in court for people who do not believe in God.
Erin
Folks supporting gay marriage didn't hit 50% until 2011 and also Obama was against gay marriage just 6 months ago. Also, contrary to your remarks, this Nations as been a Christian Nation and still is to some extent. Sorry.
Erin
I failed to read your entire comment before commenting on it. I would not have wasted my time on someone that exhibits no respect for the Bible.
They are not married and never will be in the eyes of God. This is just one of hundreds of problems. Birth certificates say- Mother and Father, not mother and mother. She is an unwed mother. At least the child is wanted, but that is all I will say.
It warms my heart that the "anti-christs" or those who hate any kind of religion, are being collapsed frequently. Yes, they have their rights to expression, but no-one will ever benefit from such spewage....
@ Mickey-1983943 branxoz,
"The media's "bias' towards the sodomite lifestyle is pathetic."
Sodomite? Now there's a quaint word! I thought that word went out with the 19th. century. What other sorts of archaic expressions do you have in your vocabulary? Do you still call a "broom" a "besom" as in Shakespeare's day?
Regardless whether speaking in Abraham or Lot's day, or in modern day....sodomy is just as much an abomination before God today, as it was 4000 years ago. You'll never be able to justify lewd and vulgar acts to those of faith....might as well find another forum....
BTW people, the year "2012" in which we live, is based on the "advent of Christ".......just a note to all those who don't believe that He ever existed.....What?---does science base it's world calender on a myth?? Get real....
1. Yes there are some bad apples in the clergy, and the Vatican has done a very poor job investigating, but it's not official policy of the Holy See.
2. By the same logic, teachers' unions also endorse pedophilia.
ErinNJ: Then how do you explain this?
@Jezzus in 2.65
I totally agree with you, re-read what I wrote:
The Biblical version of Jesus is a lie as far as I am concerned. There is no factual proof besides the self-fulfilling Bible stuff, that proves Jesus self-resurrected or had mystical powers. There is enough proof, however, to claim that he did actually exist. Like so much in the Bible, while most of it is over exaggerated nonsense it is based on some factual truth. The people, the places, the events. The talking to God bits and light beams shooting out of peoples hands not withstanding.
Demonstratably false! Our nation is founded on the Constitution, and not on any religious ideology! I defy you to prove otherwise!
It's called progress. Sorry if you can't keep up.
How many supported interracial marriage in 1967?
Who cares? Marriage is a civil institution under the law. The religious aspect is merely ceremonial, with no legal weight. So your god is irrelevant!
Sorry, but this is a secular nation whith a religiously neutral government, which happens to have many christians in it. But your religious does not make our secular laws!
Why should it be respected? Some of us respect the Constitution, which trumps your bible!
Have you ever engaged in oral/anal sex? That's considered sodomy. Besides, sodomy isn't illegal.
Who cares? Your approval is neither required or necessary.
Simple: It's Washington's personal expression of faith and nothing more. Certainly nothing to do with the actual founding of this country or drafting of the Constitution!
Here's an idea. How about we stop arguing the Bible and start arguing the facts, and maybe, MAYBE get on topic? Ok? Ok.
The fact of the matter, I always hear the screams from the right that "IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN! IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN!". Tell me how taking away a loving couple with warm food, and soft beds, and maybe even, gasp, functioning utilities, no matter who they love or not, is for the children. Go ahead. I expect a DAMN good argument, preferably not centered around needing a Mother and Father for a traditional upbringing. I believe most children would prefer not starving to having a mommy and daddy, thank you.
By all means, you're welcome to stand by your religious beliefs, and your doctrines, and your prejudices, and what have you. You're free to hate, and I'm free to hate you for your hate. It's the Circle of We're All Screwed. But stop hurting the frelling kids just for your "morals". Your morals don't bring food to the table, or give them the security of a home. Doesn't help that there are a lot of DEATHS at these adoption places, either. Gay Parents vs. Death. Hm. Tough one, ain't it?
OK.
Regarding the Apostiles. It's easy for religion to conjur up stories that are generations old and declare them as factual. This is ludicrous. Why are their no writings in the bible from the Apostiles?
I find it hard to beleive that 1) none of the Apolstiles could read or write. 2) no one made any written offical records of any of their activities. 3) Not even a single living person who ever supposedly knew Jesus or the Apostiles ever made any written record or testament of their activities.
Remarkable claims require extraordinary proof. Writings that occur 70 AD, or 40+ years after Jesus's death are pathetic proof, in this time period of humanity, this could easily represent 2 generations.
Christianity is just a convenient tool for politiicians, rulers and governors to control the population and utilize their ignorance against them.
Today, religion is utilized the same way, politicians use individual and collective "beliefs" to divide the population making them easy game to court for votes.
This discussion is getting off topic.
Clearvoice....
Your comments about all of these random species engaging in what you claim as homosexuality are total false and they have been debunked numerous times over. These animal are not engaging in these abnormal or deviant natrual acts becuase of love or a bond for familyhood. They are typically utilizing anal intercourse as a mean of displaying domination or imparting humiliation on a fellow member of their species. Additionally, these same animals will frequently try to mate with anything that walks, juvenile members of their species etc. They are known to kill and eat their offspring. They are known to ostracize members of the pack. These are all acts which I would place homosexual activities in the same grouping. Deviant animalistic responses to stimulus and situation. These acts: Rape, incest, sex with children, murder etc. are all heinous acts which soceity dispises to the point that we can not tolerate it and criminailize tem to maintain order in the population. I'm not suggesting criminalization of homosexuality, but it is not a trait that we will ever recognize as normal or accepted.
Really? Then perhaps you can explain this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/13/obama-once-supported-same_n_157656.html
So perhaps you can also explain why God, Jesus, the bible, or any other religious text or deity are NOT mentioned in the Constitution. And perhaps you can explain why there is an explicit "separation of church and state" -- as stated by Thomas Jefferson -- in this country. We are not now, nor have we ever been, a "Christian nation".
That is one quote from George Washington; I can give you many more from him and other Founding Fathers on religion:
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor
"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor
The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." -- Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." --- Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816
"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." --- Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819
The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. Thomas Jefferson
Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible]. Thomas Paine
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. Thomas Paine
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. Thomas Paine
Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions. George Washington
Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society. George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]
Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists.... George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority. George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)
I have examined all the known superstitions of the World, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world...The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. Thomas Jefferson
It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. Thomas Jefferson
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. Thomas Jefferson
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, 1785
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." James Madison, letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." James Madison, 1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." Benjamin Franklin
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England." Benjamin Franklin
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." Benjamin Franklin
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin, in Poor Richard's Almanac
Jeezuz...For those who believe, no proof is necessry. For those who don't, no proof will ever be enough.
As far as same sex marriage goes, which is what this article is supposed to be about, I don't support it at all. I have nothing against gay/lesbians. I support civil unions for longterm couples, both homosexual and heterosexual.
Marriage, whether civil or religious is a union of man and woman.
For those comparing us to the rest of the animal kingdom. Of adult males that will kill cubs for food, etc. That the males move on to breed another female and then another. What is this teaching our children?
I thought we were supposed to be of a more evolved species.
Most children of gay parents, by way of originating from the wrong orifice usually have a short life from the handle/flush method. Those that live become subversive special interest journalists for MSNBC.
Texson55,
"Regardless whether speaking in Abraham or Lot's day, or in modern day....sodomy is just as much an abomination before God today, as it was 4000 years ago. "
Abraham and Lot, if they ever actually existed, would have spoken Hebrew, and there is no word in Hebrew for "Sodomy" or "Sodomite". Those words are derived from the name of the city, Sodom, in the mythical story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Even in the modern Hebrew that is spoken in Israel today the reference when speaking of such a thing is to the city of Sodom and they use the word "sodomi" or the phrase "the works of Sodom". Still, I think the word "sodomy" or "sodomite" is outdated in English.
Olivia Forever,
"Having sex with the opposite gender is how you get the sperm to the egg. The same results cannot be achieved through anal sex among males, or by a dikes munching on each others twats."
No, but it can be achieved in the laboratory to some extent, and the day may come with the advance of science when sexual intercourse will no longer be necessary for reproduction. Babies will be grown in the lab by men and women in white lab coats. Then sexual intercourse will be for purely recreational purposes and outdated as far as reproduction is concerned. Science is advancing at a much faster rate than we could ever before have dreamed possible.
Olivia, you rock!
Yes, Olivia's head is full of rocks.
Faith is for morons.
People through the ages have used faith on an assortment of topics and never, not a single time has the fact of faith had any bering what so ever of the truth. Millions of people had faith that the earth was flat.... did that make the earth flat? Millions of people had faith that the sun revolved around the earth.....did that make the earth the center of the universe? Americans had faith that WMD's existed in Iraq...did that cause them to materialize out of clean air?
Gordy327
My, My, appears you have a response (opinion) for everybody's comments. One thing's for sure, one day, when you stand before God, your opinion's won't matter.
What will you do if there is no god for you to stand before, hm?
You said this beautifully. That is my main issue also - anytime a child is not loved and raised by his/her mother AND father, the child suffers a loss in some way. And now some people want to legislate that? that it is acceptable for children to bear that loss?
We should NEVER take away the rights of children to be raised by their mother and father whenever and whereever possible.
You all do realize that when Jesus returns, he will return as a black gay man, perhaps with a handicap.
The ones who spout Bible verses will be the first to call for his crucifixion.
Nor is any accepted!
Try actually presenting some and we'll see.
Civil unions is not the same as marriage and is inherently unconstitutinal.
Merely your opinion!
Humans are part of the animal kingdom too.
If homosexuals were allowed to marry the consenting adult of their choosing,there wouldn't be a problem t begin with!
What does procreation have to do with marriage?
I address various points as they're made. Your point?
Threats from your cosmic boogeyman is neither convincing or persuasive!
Comment # 1 deleted, religious derail.
Leaving many comments collapsed on # 2 for being religious derails.
Dick-2100935, trouble46545, you are both suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
Sally, judging by the nature of this thread and some of these posts, I'd say you have your work cut out for you. :)
As a Christian I find the hatred of 'So Called Christians" hard to fathom. Even if I do not agree with homosexuality, it is my belief, all I was told by Christ was to love unconditionally. This does not mean to wish them to hell or anything else. Also, why the problem with Homosexuality, when some of you that are so much against it are most likely glutenous, or selfish, or any of the other sins. Do you really think that God looks at Homosexuals as worse sinners then you? If you do I would suggest you read the bible.
To the gay community, I have sadly seen more love from you then from some so called Christians, maybe we should watch you and learn from some of you. Also, I would rather see a child raised by a gay couple with love then raised by the state with non. It comes down to the old statement of not judging but to love. So your lifestyle is your business, and mine is mine, maybe if we could learn to love more and judge less there would be less problems.
Tbenton,
"Also, why the problem with Homosexuality, when some of you that are so much against it are most likely glutenous, or selfish, or any of the other sins. Do you really think that God looks at Homosexuals as worse sinners then you? If you do I would suggest you read the bible."
Good post! And those Christians who do that should particularly pay attention to Luke 18:9-14:
9 But he spoke this illustration also to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and who considered the rest as nothing: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I
fast twice a week, I give the tenth of all things I acquire.’ 13 But the tax collector standing at a distance was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward, but kept beating his breast, saying, ‘O God, be gracious to me a sinner. 14 I tell YOU, This man went down to his home proved more righteous than that man; because everyone that exalts himself will be humiliated, but he that humbles himself will be exalted.”
According to Jesus, that Pharisee was a hypocrite and to be condemned.
There is zero evidence that a lack of either a father or mother, when two parents are present, has any damage to the child, and plenty of evidence that it is the number of parents without regard for gender that matters.
Well that is one of your major problems erin, is that your doing a very poor self interpretation. Freedom OF is a lot different then saying FROM .. To have freedom of the religion you want to be part of. Freedom from the government trying to start a universal church. I cant believe for someone who was a legal, can butcher our documents up like this. Doesnt amaze me though, people can litigate anything and try to make people believe it, especially if they dont know their history. Thankfully we do have such, and I see it plain as day to defend it from people like you who try to change and conform it into something you want it to mean.
Yet I see you don't bother to speak to that difference.
If you have the freedom to practice your own religion, you have the freedom to not have anyone else's religion forced on you.
This couple will pay thousands, if not tens of thousands in extra taxes each year. This says nothing about the costs and burden of having to file extra returns that straight couples do not have to. While that doesn't sound like much, it equates to a quarter million by the time their child reaches college age.
That is slavery. If their child is in need of medical care, it's darn right evil. Why should they have to pay where others don't simply because of what is inbetween their spouse's legs?
That is why it is important to get Romeny's nose out of your crotch and end DOMA by voting for the right candidate this year.
You are wrong! Homosexuality is evil! Read the Bible will ya!
The two women made the choice to select this lifestyle.
It is not slavery, they were not forced into it.
What difference would there be here between them and two normal heterosexual people who choose to cohabitate and not get married.
So Steveorevo,
Your argument for gay marriage is that it will be a thrifty way to save on your taxes?? I always new it was a math thing.
No difference Jeezus. Both are sins.
They have no choice but to pay more taxes. Carry your own weight!
If you think it's just "money" then you know nothing about the costs of raising children, caring for your elders, or what providing for your family mean nor the value of hard work. At least try to be an American!
The difference is that, in every state the cohabitating straight couple can choose to get married at any time.
Extra taxes? No, they will actually pay less in taxes because they now have a dependent they can claim.
File extra returns? It's not that difficult to write down the dependent's info and what deductions may apply.
A quarter million? You're really just making stuff up.
Only one of them can claim a dependent. Federally they MUST FILE SEPARATELY OR GO TO JAIL. State wise they must file jointly and to get those numbers they must create a "fake" joint federal filing to calculate the number as if they were equal. That's just for starters.
Have you ever done or paid your taxes?
Carry your own weight!!!
ManWomanGod,
"You are wrong! Homosexuality is evil! Read the Bible will ya!"
I've read the Bible, and the Quran, and the Vedas, and the Jatakas and a whole lot of other books, too. Why limit yourself to just one book? There are millions of them.
The "husband" adopted the child stevo. New York legalized same sex marriage. Of course, it depends on how they file their taxes but both can now legally claim the child as a dependent.
You're single or don't file taxes.
@Conservative ... Steveorevo is quite right. Married same-sex couples must file three tax returns calculated on very different standards .. one for the state as a couple, two with the Federal government as individuals. Your statement that BOTH can claim the child as a dependent makes no sense at all. Only the person who supplies more than 50% of the dependents support can claim the deduction. On a joint return, that distinction isn't important. It is critical for individual returns.
Actually the total extra cost for gays can be as high as $467,562 according to a NY Times analysis. Much of that inequity is a direct result of Jim Crow laws like DOMA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/03/your-money/03money.html
Overall, gays not only pay more taxes than you & I do but they get far less back in return because of inequitable and discriminatory laws.
Well they should have to file 3 returns, when it comes down to the brass tax of the whole thing a gay or lesbian couple can not, I mean its physically impossible to have children togeather they have to have input from someone else. Case Closed.
@Panhead...... what about me?
I'm a heterosexual female married to a heterosexual male AND it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to have children together - so, if we wanted a child, we would need "input" from someone else!
Should our marriage license be revoked and made into a "civil union?" If you answer no, then you need to rethink your stance on gay marriage!
I have a feeling you won't get an answer from Panhead...
To Jeezusismy:
You said:
"What difference would there be here between them and two normal heterosexual people who choose to cohabitate and not get married."
Rebut:
First off, if the heterosexual couple are not in Christ, there is no difference, even if they are married and committed, because outside of Christ there is no salvation, which is the road that everyone is on when they come into this world. As for the same-sex couple, not only are they separated from God because of their same-sex life style, but also because they are not in Christ. For if they were in Christ, they would have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and they themselves would not be able to continue in that life style, as it would eat at their spirits that are new in Christ. For the person in Christ, the word of God says, "The flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, for they are contrary to one another." The true person in Christ would be in agreement with God that we are sinners and they would be fighting against those desires to overcome them and not justifying and embracing them.
Don-816006: Every majore religion that has/will exist(ed) before, during, and after Christianity will disagree with you there bud.
So what do all those other religions think of homosexuality?
You will find that it is forbidden in virtually every other religion.
So let's ask ourselves this question. Jesus tells christians to love the sinner, hate the sin. Are we really living up to that? In other words, do we hate homosexuality as much as God does?
I think a lot of people on this site are becoming more desensitized because of articles like these.
@ Unhappy-1583758
Actually, most other major religions never even mentioned homosexual. However, the society overall just like you will try to use whatever excuses to go after homosexual.
Even in the Bible from 50 years ago, there is not a single word about homosexual and if you take a look at the recent Bible, you will find that it somehow "magically" included in it. Did they mistranslated even though they did it for over 1000 years?
@ Monkeynucleosis
Don-816006: Every majore religion that has/will exist(ed) before, during, and after Christianity will disagree with you there bud.
No they won't, Monkey, you're just trolling for a "majority" who could care less about your personal opinion. talk to Don man to man....don't hide behind an imaginary minion....
Cuong DNuguyen:Then how do you explain this in the Quran?
I can see now that you don't really know what you are talking about!
Where is your proof that there is not a single word about homosexuality?Even in the story of Sodom and Gommorrah there was homosexuality; so you see it was not uncommon for them to mention it.
Open your eyes man! You can say that it isn't there, but do you really need us to tell you again where it is found in the bible?
Quite honestly, I do not know why I still have trouble with the concept of homosexuals acting as parents. Intellectually I know that they are likely to be good, nurturing care givers as heterosexuals.
I guess it is just a lifetime of cultural influence that is at work.
DMAN...................Quite honestly, I don't know why I have trouble with the concept of heterosexuals"acting" as parents when they beat their children, leave them unattended in cars while they party, poison them, on and on and on.
I guess it is just a lifetime of cultural influence that is at work.
Julian, you make it sound as if the majority of hetero parents are abusive. Not true. Let the gays try to have children on their own and then let me know how that works out.
You forgot to mention the ring of men (undoubtedly identifying as heterosexual) who are even NOW being tracked down for a baby raping ring. How old was the youngest rape victim, 19 DAYS? I can NOT verify through court documents ("everyone knows but won't put their real name on it" online doesn't count) any man of a child molesting ring any male who self identifies as homosexual. Most cops are embarrassed to admit the number one sexual predator on earth is a heterosexual Human male. The same way the number one suspect in a woman's violent death is her last or current Male sexual partner.
Here we go again, equating homosexuals and pedophiles. A pedophile can be either, pedophilia has no connection to sexual orientation as it relates to homosexual or heterosexual. Most pedophiles are, in fact, heterosexual men, who are married and have children of their own. Fact check it.
At least "dman" is being honest with himself. He said he has trouble with the concept of gays having children. He didn't say he rejects it outright. He's right. We are all influenced by our culture.
givemeabook
Not sure where you're coming from. How many stories of women killing their children, simply because they were in the way of their love life, have we heard in the last few years? There are some sick people in the world. How does that relate to this story?
Pedophilia is a definition of law and medicine, homosexual and heterosexual are definitions of behavior. Same sex pedophilia is illegal and homosexual behavior whereas opposite sex pedophilia is illegal and heterosexual behavior. Your facts may be distorted by assuming all married men with children are heterosexual. Which I don't believe because too many homosexual men in the past hid their activities with that cover. This is not to exclude those who are bisexual also.
another child screwed up when they get older
gunsafety, so, tell us your not straight and screwed up??? I thought this one was about how great it is that this little one has two people that love her!! Leave it to all the right-wingers and hate-mongers to bring religion into the story!!!
It's called your "conscience". That little part of you that is able to discern what is naturally correct. It's also the part that the MSM (etc.) is trying to harden or corrupt in your average sheep, er uh, person.
dman-353357... It's not a Lifetime of anything.. Though folks like Julian and givemeabook (Bible?) obviously show there intolerance of your view, I surmise that your feeling may hinge on the fact that Children raised in same sex homes do tend to be Gay... like there parents... not to say that they won't be "straight" it just follows that the children model behavior of the parents... We feel like before the child learns the "difference" they will have become "accustomed" to gay "normalcy". My opinion.
Actually it's called "introspection" and "being aware of one's own biases." I applaud dman for recognizing those biases, and recognizing that gays make just as good of parents as straights.
It sounds like Spiddas isn't capable of the same degree of introspection.
Depends on your view. There have been studies showing children raised by gay parents are more likely to turn out gay. The counter to that argument is that they "are well adjusted", not that it isn't true that they turn out gay. Depends on individual morality and your interpretation what "well adjusted" means.
I've read a couple articles countering the "children of gays are more likely to be gay" findings but not one says it's incorrect, only that the children are "well adjusted", whatever that means.
Flame77_7 - I've never heard of any study supporting your alleged "fact": that children raised in same-sex homes tend to be gay. Given the still relatively small number of gay parents in our society, and the even smaller number of children from such families who have already reached adulthood or adolescents, I question that such a study is even possible.
I have seen statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_male_sexual_orientation) to the effect that sexual orientation is determined prior to birth, not through any evil indoctrination program. This "Hang around with gays and you'll wind up a homosexual." theory of sexual orientation is not supported by any mainstream school of psychiatry, and appears to be largely believed only by people such as yourself.
Thank-you, Shrekk, for actually reading my post, and not simply posting a knee-jerk reaction.
No, Julian DD, in your case I believe some more basic, such as small cranial capacity, is at work.
Did you note where I said.
before you began typing.
Probably not.
Based on the history of "introspection", it is primarily a philosophical function; secondarily a spiritual function; and more recently a function of psychology. (Though there appears to be much criticism regarding the psychological aspects thereof. ie - psychobabble. The "intellectual" justification to override what the conscience of an individual understands to be moral/ethical/etc.)
dman - skrekk is awesome like that :)
arguesforsport - please direct us to these articles. If being "raised by gay parents" can determine the sexual orientation of a child, then how did anyone ever become gay?
The History of Introspection... I'd no idea there was such a course of study.
Where does one go to learn about this no doubt riveting subject?
As to the rest of your post, I would not say it even rises to the level of "psychobabble"; it is just meaningless babble.
It shows the chance is increased. 50% plus for children raised by 2 women and 30% plus for those raised by 2 men if I remember correctly. Find the stories yourself if you want to see, I'm not your servant.
they became gay because ththe parents had lesser morals and believed in tolerance and taught the child it was ok for people to be like that and it just snow balled from there
I never said that. Look at it this way. If a child is raised in a christian household is that child more likely to follow christian or jewish beliefs later in life? That's all that the studies in question show. Not that it is inevitable, or the only way a child will turn out gay, just that the likelihood is increased.
I'm a married, straight, 47 year old man. I had many gay friends and spent years hanging out with them on a daily basis and never had any problems with their choices. But it also gave me a chance to gain some real insight and not just "read" what's presented by one side or the other My real life observations will never be trumped by one study or another.
arguesforsport - I don't think I need to. The fact is that you can't provide any supporting documentation to support your claim.
Too bad if you choose to remain ignorant. They are out there, I found them and read them. If a little internet search is beyond you that is your cross to bear. Link it or it's not true is a crutch for those that want to keep their head in the sand. Or are you afraid you may not like what you find? When I want to learn something, I find it myself, I don't need someone to lead me by the nose.
Arguesforsport - most people who have found good solid information on something. and posted the information, are more than eager to share it. They don't find it a burden at all. I shouldn't have to do an internet search. You were throwing out statistics, tell everyone where you got them, or refrain from posting statistics without providing the supporting evidence.
This is an opinion forum. I don't have to do crap. If you don't like my opinion, or are too lazy to research yourself, that's up to you. I was taught in school how to find the answers myself, not rely on someone spoon feeding me. And links are useless. For any link, anyone can find an opposing viewpoint link. It's up to you to listen to both sides, but I can see that it's too much of a burden to for some to do the legwork themselves. I do find it a burden to lead someone by the nose that can quite easily do it themselves. I'm here for entertainment and offering an opinion. If you're happy listening to one side and dismissing the other just because you're afraid of what you may find, that's your prerogative.
Then you should stick to posting opinions!!
I did. I posted my take on the subject and then when offered a differing opinion, gave a little insight as to where I got my opinion. I don't have to prove crap. That's the great thing about opinions. They may not be popular but they can never be wrong.
And now I'm done playing here for today, it's become boring.
I did not say that you did. My post was in response to Flame77_7's claim that it is a...
In answer to your question (see above) I don't know, arguesforsport, but it is not particularly relevant.
Unlike religion, homosexuality is not choice, and my parents did not teach me to be interested in girls. It just came natural, more or less like breathing.
Homosexuality is a result of how your brain is wired. You either get hard when you see a naked man ...or you do not. It really is that simple, and that inescapable.
This has been a predominantly Christian nation since its inception, and there has always been homosexuals in it. I know of no study showing that homosexuals are predominantly from atheist homes, broken homes or homes with lax morals.
Show me one of the "studies in question"??
One should be willing to show some evidence of a generalized statement such as yours.
Yes, it is an opinion forum, but if you cannot back up your opinions with some semblance of underlying fact, then your opinions will be treated like crap.
When you were being taught in school, I'm guessing that if you turned in a term paper with no bibliography, citing your sources, then you got an "F".
...so, it really should not be too much trouble on your part to cite the link, research paper, or medical journal whence you derived your "evidence", and lessen the danger that people will think that you are just making stuff up.
You may argue-for-sport, but you surely are not very good at it. I could argue your point of view better than you do ...and I don't even agree with it.
Old sarge: That is because a majority of these cases of homosexual men go unreported. This story just came out in July 2012. Here's a little excerpt:
Bet you never would have heard of it, if not for me posting it!
Go ahead, look it up for yourself.
@ Mickey-1983943
At least "dman" is being honest with himself. He said he has trouble with the concept of gays having children. He didn't say he rejects it outright. He's right. We are all influenced by our culture.
There...might point exactly....no one is born homosexual....no scientist has ever...EVER determined a "gene" that causes such a preference. So at least, be honest and call homosexuality what it is....a mental disorder caused by a progression of choices through one's life. And, as such the disorder will more than likely be passed on to the children given to homosexuals to raise......the decline of every historical society.... DANG!---Satan's good at what he does, isn't he??
Texan - I'm not sure how you got from "We are all influenced by our culture" to terming homosexuality "a mental disorder". That is a pretty long jump, even in Texas.
While you are half-right in saying that nobody has ever found a gene which causes homosexuality, there is strong evidence that people are indeed born that way, perhaps in response to specific hormones produced by the mother. One strong indicator of this is the strong relationship between fraternal birth order and the chance that a man will be a homosexual. (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10771.long). Simply put, the chance of being a homosexual rises with each older brother a man has. This relationship holds only for biological brothers, not step brothers or adopted siblings, and it does not matter whether the older brothers are raised with the younger one.
The most obvious and likely, logical explanation for such a relationship is that there is a subconscious, and involuntary action on the part the mother during pregnancy, changing the future sexual orientation of the fetus.
Why would such a biological mechanism exist? I do not know. My suspicion is that in past human societies, competition for the limited number of available women was a constant source of stress and conflict. It is possible that ensuring a certain number of men would not be actively competing was a means to lessen such strife.
But homosexuality a mental disorder?
Sorry, that view is not shared by any current medical authority, and the idea does not fit the reality. People are not cured of it, as they may be of claustrophobia, and most of them have no desire to be.
This last idea falls under the heading of bs being piled on top of more bs. Please show me a study showing that children raised by homosexuals are more likely to be homosexual themselves. I would also like to hear of the societies brought low by acceptance of homosexuality. If you are going to cite classical Greece, keep in mind that acceptance of homosexuality was a part of it from its earliest development, through its peak in 5th century Athens, and in its decline.
If it is true that people are born homosexual, it follows that people are born heterosexual. If luck would have it, a homosexual couple would have a gay child and fully understand when explained. If the child turned out to be heterosexual, would the kid understand why daddy number 1 is ramming it to daddy number 2? Because they all aventually walk in during "the act". So now, as a heterosexual child, I really don't want to know where babies come from.
The fact is that you have selfishly chosen a lifestyle for yourself, to satisfy your own needs and desires. and not for the benefit of children.
@!$%# Mass Resistance, the AFA, FRC or other Religious Right groups and their sites you consider cannon; they're nothing but Christian hate groups who makes up statistics or exaggerates every same-sex pedophilia case to make it sound like we're all after your children and that there is some kind of orgainized agenda. Do you think there is some conspiracy that gay sexual abuse cases are hidden from the public? That's because for every same-sex pedophile, there are at least 5 cases of male-to-female child molesters and rapists and most paederasts identify themselves as straight and are in straight relationships. Now why don't you focus your attention on some of your straight, wholesome Christian families because there is a chance that the patriarch of one of them is screwing his daughters and she is too afraid to tell anyone because she lost her virginity before marriage and will go to hell.
Bob,
"If it is true that people are born homosexual, it follows that people are born heterosexual."
Perhaps people are born bi-sexual, and that both exclusive homosexuality and exclusive heterosexuality are both "perversions", if you like that word, of human nature. I'm not saying that's true, but the writer, Gore Vidal, at least believed that. I don't believe we really know enough about the subject yet to make a final pronouncement one way or another.
Texson55,
"Satan's good at what he does, isn't he??"
If Satan, the "Great Deceiver", really exists, then how do you know he is not deceiving you? You might say to yourself, "Oh, I can't be deceived because I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior", but how do you know that isn't just one of his deceptions? After all, you yourself say that Satan is good at what he does; that he is an immensely clever person when it comes to deception. You would simply have no way of knowing for sure if you are being deceived, would you? That's the problem with positing the existence of a "master deceiver" to begin with.
From what the national perspective is on adoption and cost, there are far more American going out of the country to adopt. Spending large amounts to travel and paperwork in other economonies, our country is the loser. The kids stranded in the system receive no positive exposure to gain a decent and loving family. Social workers let kids return to homes that cause lifelong damage and other repercussions. Is the constricting and archaic rules for adoption because some of the states or workers are to hidebound to be releastic about releasing the kids? What is the cost of keeping foster kids versus allowing adoptions with supervision for a year or so afterward in children w/special needs or high risk behaviors. The stigma on LGTB is lessening for allowing children to gain a loving and structured home with a couple who will support and bring them up. You have a pool of potential parents who are dedicated and financially stable to give kids a loving home. This national obsession on who is occupying whose bed is beyong ludicrous. The end result is are they honest, hard working and motivated for life?
AIDS in children reached a record high in 2006, kids molested and raped by homosexuals! Go look it up!
ManWomanGod- I have only one word to you- bull@!$%#!
ManWoman - Are you saying that the reason AIDS reached a record high in 2006 is because they were molested and raped by homosexuals? Because that is what you wrote. Please be so kind as tell us where you found this source of information. I seriously doubt that any such publication exists, but you seem to be so certain in your statement, certainly you must know where the information can be found.
Manwomangod represents a stupidity that can only be attributed to a troll.
ManWomanGod, Yes show us where you got this information. Its people like you that God will judge as intolerant and evil!!
When people say "go look it up", they're usually saying "I just made up those statistics to suit my purpose."
The sad part is that you actually believe what you have written. Ridiculous comment.
AIDS in children is most often the result of being born from an AIDS infected mother. Other causes are IV drug use, blood transfusions, consensual sexual activity, and rape. There is no data that would support your claim that homosexual rape of children is the leading cause of childhood AIDS.
And since lesbians have the lowest HIV rate of any demographic I presume "ManWomanGod" fully supports adoption by lesbians, right?
http ://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_AIDS
Please, just everybody get it over with and kill each other off already and leave me a few beautiful women with which to repopulate the world with smart and intelligent people, okay? Thank you.
Conservapedia -- much less reliable a source than Wikipedia; at least Wikipedia isn't blatantly biased.
ManWomanGod,
"AIDS in children reached a record high in 2006, kids molested and raped by homosexuals! Go look it up!"
I tried to look it up, as you suggested, but I could find no such thing about kids being molested or raped by homosexuals. There are tons of links about AIDS in children because, of course, children do get AIDS just like anyone else. But most of them get it from blood transfusions or are born with it because their mothers had it; not from being raped by homosexuals. That's just a figment of your imagination.
Ever hear of Adam Flanders?
No. Who is he?
Oh, that's just his new hero, a paederast convicted in 2007 whom he thinks represents the rest of the gay population. The reason we never really heard of him, at least until now, is because he's not on any mainstream news, just the anti-gay ones like Ass Resistance or the WorldNutDaily, mostly because because he tried to sue them for harassment, violation of privacy and using stolen journals and court documents. I saw an videotaped interogation of him and I didn't know police interogations were free domain to be placed on the web.
It's hard to tell what is actually true here because there is no neutral news sites to report this. All these homophobic websites (including one that read like it was written by a Westboro "god hates fags" church member, even if it was from Canada) have to do is learn that a person or group is gay, and they are automatically a "sex offender," even if they weren't found guilty or commited a sex crime in the first place. In religion, one is always guilty before being proven innocent. Once they run out of facts, they make up their own to fill in the gaps and made to sound even more convincing once they reach other like minded websites. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm sure Flanders got what was coming to him when he was charged as a sex offender, but these Christian websites have been known to stretching the truth quite a bit when it comes to matters involving homosexuality, such as calling gay youth groups a "sex ring."
Unhappy is just a troll spewing lies like a drunk who had a few too many.
He's Ned Flander's brother, of course!
Augure666,
"these Christian websites have been known to stretching the truth quite a bit when it comes to matters involving homosexuality, such as calling gay youth groups a "sex ring."
Thanks for the info. I agree. I took a look at that "conservapedia" web site's article on homosexuality that one of the posters on this blog recommended. It consisted of mostly nothing but negative information (and often disinformation) about homosexuality and nothing positive at all. I thought from the way it read that it must have been written in the 1950's. I guess the name "conservapedia" says it all. It just tells conservatives what they want to hear as does FAUX News. It's a shame we live in a time when people have so little concern with truth.
I hope you do realize how ridiculous the headline for this article is. Of course gay couples face challenges in having children. After all, by definition a gay couple is either two men or two women. Now, I don't claim to have a doctorate in biology, but I do know that's going to present a challenge in having children.
Well one thing for certain. When a same sex couple decides to become parents, it isn't by accident. No unplanned parenthood for that group. Just like heterosexual couples who face infertility issues they have heard of things like IVF, surrogacy, and adoption. It is wrong though, for them to have to face challenges outside of those that would be faced by any heterosexual couple with infertility issues.
vamike,
Be careful, a statement with that logic will bring the shrill screams of hate and intolerance from the lickalottapusses and suckalottadicks.
But you are correct. And the flitaroundalots cannot change that fact.
A.non - the only shrill screams I hear are from those who think that the best way to make their point is by name calling. vamike stating the obvious doesn't change the fact that despite their "challenges" homosexuals have been becoming parents for years, and will continue to become parents in the future. If you read past the headline, or bothered to read the article at all, it is merely outlining the challenges that they face in making sure that both parties in the relationship have the same rights as heterosexual couples (i.e. The grandparents can't come and take the child away from the surviving spouse/partner should one of the parties pass away).
Two men cannot have children and must adopt or find a woman to impregnate.
Two woman cannot have children and must either adopt or go find a man to impregnate them.
God, through nature and anatomy is showing that two of the same sex do not belong together. The word of God says that he created Adam and then from Adam he created Eve, man and woman.
God also said, that a MAN was to leave his father and mother and be joined to his WIFE. The word Man is always listed in the masculine and woman is always in the feminine.
You could get the whole world to support same-sex life styles, but in the end the only One who counts is God. And he has already said that a man with a man or woman with a woman is detestible to him. And if anyone doesn't believe that, they will find out once they take their last breath, for death will settle the argument. Unfortunately, a person's record is sealed at the time of death and there is no going back.
"Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved." (Romans 1:26-27)
For those of you who continue to say that God never says anything against same-sex life styles, if you can't understand the Scripture above, then it is just a matter of not wanting to know the truth. God does not condon or approve of same-sex life styles, for he says, "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman." I'm just a messenger, God is the One that everyone will have to personally give an account to and I doubt very much that you are going to try to convince him with the same arguments that you are posting here.
Repent and receive Christ while he may still be found!
Don, take your god and shove it (in the words of Romney's press spokesman).
Don - I see you did a little editing on the scripture you chose. I'm just curious why you left out the first sentence in Romans 1:26?
"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones."
And why not inclue some of the passages prior to that one?
"20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."
You are right, in the end it is up to God to judge. So why not let people have the same rights under the law here on Earth, and let God be the final judge. I think this world would be a better place.
If that is supposed to be part of "nature," then why has homosexuality been documented in approximately 1,500 animal species (besides humans)?
Unfortunately for christo-bigots like you, Don, God and the bible do not make our laws.
"Nature" has given us all overactive reproductive capabilities that often results in children be unwanted and shoved aside.
I hope that when prospective parents give one of these unwanted children a chance to live where they ARE wanted, that there are no blocks in the way.
I am continually amazed by adoption requirements that many current natural parents could not meet.
If you're scared of gay parents, you must remember that heterosexual parents are the ones who are either unable or unwilling to support children to start with. And, the truth be told, their behavior shows that they don't want them.
Adoption needs to be easier and more final than it is.
"We need a quart of sperm and a turkey baster shaped like Jody Foster's knuckles" - Family Guy
Don
You're right that two of the same sex do not belong together and agree with your stance on the Word of God which makes this clear. Notice that most of these comments are "Bible Bashing" people that appear quite frequently on ALL of these forums in promoting their agenda. Also, you will notice that most appear on the forum daily with their anti-religious views attacking all Christians, such as yourself. It's a minority of people and they love to vent their frustrations, in a life without meaning, to each and every Christian that attempts to uphold the word of God. Their comments aren't worthy of a response.
Too bad for you christo-bigots that God does not make the laws in this secular nation. Keep YOUR religion out of MY government.
Pity the "word of god" never condemns homosexuality outside of Leviticus, in the original texts and languages.
Just another indication of how screwed up society has become in the last 25 years!!
I'd say as long as we've had dysfunctional parents we've had a screwed up society.
I agree tatas, and there isn't one specific type of "dysfunctional parent" ... just ask any one of my kids :)
Park,
and we are looking at the person who is part of the group who caused it (you) by being determined that some Americans should not enjoy the same things you have the ability to do without getting harassed by the idiots in our society.
What is the Christian answer to these thoughts:
If a woman has a child with the help of a man‘s sperm, but not through the "natural" way, and this woman is married to a woman, ...
If a woman donates her eggs so that a married couple, a man and a woman, can have a child because either the man or the woman is sterile ...
If a man donates his sperm to a woman not his wife, and he is already married to a woman, is he committing adultery?
If an unmarried man donates his sperm to a fertility clinic, is he “spilling his seed” and is then an abomination?
Just musing ...
.
1) shes a whore.
2)If she cant have children, then god intended it that way.
3)to donate his sperm is not christian, i can't see any church advocating that it is ok, for a man to jerk himself off or what ever, adultry involves sex and coveting thy neighbors wife anyways so your point is irrelevant.
4)Yes
Gay is wrong.
Sex outside of marriage is wrong.
God is great.
2) Really? I never heard that before. But then, I don't have God's lips to my ear like you seem to have. Nevertheless, wouldn't God want a barren couple to take in an orphaned child? Seems that would be the Christian thing to do
St. Matthew Chapter 7 verse 1 and 2 - Don't Judge people because you WILL BE JUDGED by "What measure ye mete".
Pointing the finger in first person is passing judgement but citing God's law does not. God has already spoken to each and everyone of us in first person. Go study the Bible, will ya......before it's too late.
@jeezusismydog and @ManWomanGod
Your kind of "God" flys people into buildings.
No one likes an extremist.
I am a christian. I have personally felt God's embrace and heard His voice at a time I needed comfort and reassurance. I don't know a lot of scripture, but I tend to veer away from scripture that would have ME judging others. The Bible (other than the Ten Commandments) was written by mere mortal men. I was not there when it was written, but I know that men can be influenced by more than just God. With that said, I do not appreciate people like JeezusismyDog on my behalf.
Thank you, "God loves ALL His children".... I am almost ashame to identify myself as Christian when so many who claim to follow Christ use it as an excuse to hate. The Christ I have a personal relationship with is the man who preached "love thy neighbor".... not "love thy neighbor as long as he believes (and acts and hates) the same things as I".
It's not hate, Denny, it's just God-fearing people trying to convey their faith to a Godless faction who will have none of it. "After this, will come the testimonies of storms, tempests, earthquakes, and waves heaving themselves beyond their bounds..." Oh wait, that's already happening....it's later than I thought.....SEEYA!---yer on yer own....
REPENT!!! The end is near! The end is near!
(Predicted in the past 10 years dozens of times and to my disappointment hasn't come true.) Jesus? What's it been? 2000 years? He's late for the orgy.
Some say a comet will fall from the sky/ followed by meteor showers and tidal waves/ followed by fault lines that cannot sit still/ followed by millions of dumbfounded dipsh*ts / some say the end is near. Some say we will see armageddon soon/
Tey will all stand before God and christ one day- he will tell them to depart into hell-------------------shame they are so lust blinded by satan they can't see it is a great sin in Gods eyes enough so that he destoyed sodom and gamorah for it---- Now they want kids -something that takes a man sperm and female sperm together to make- how God planed it- so they can raise kids to think God lied and that same sex is OK- I have nothing against the person that is Gay-I have everything against the sin they put forth trying to demand people except it- all who say it is Ok is just as guilty as they who do same sex---- Christ gave example on married --he said if you think lust in your heart you have done adultry already-iso if you Ok same sex you said by it God lied and christ will tell you to depart from him you workers of sin---------------AMERICA STAND UP FOR GOD AND GODS WORD--------------
Wow! You are really full of ... spirit!
amen brother. Im not judjeing gays or lesbians. its all in the Bible to read. as far as them being parent's ,not really. all their doing is teaching kid's to live in sin as they do.no better than the pedophiles.I agree with gwarth2
females have eggs not sperm you egghead
Lot received a pardon because his Uncle asked for it. God Loved Abraham so he gave it. HMMMMM. If you KNOW THE RIGHT PEOPLE............
@gwarth
I say it is OK (and will be great) for same sex couples to marry and have the same privileges that I have as a heterosexual married person. I say it is OK (or great) when two loving parents have a child, the parents can be two moms, two dads, or two heteros....
According to you, I will be going to hell, along with the entire GLBT community....AMEN TO THAT!!! -
Hell to me would be if I were surrounded by perpetually intolerant people, who want to dictate other people's lives!
And thank god (figuratively) that we are a secular nation. What a psycho.
Become a Mormon like Romney and then the "Gods" will be with you.............and with your "spirits"
You know, Christ once taught that (with regards to the kingdom of heaven), "straight is the way and narrow is the gate that leadeth to eternal life.......an few there be who find it..."
So I'm not surprised that the majority of the earth (along with this forum) is not in line with God's teachings, or even cares at all. It's all going down just as He, His prophets, and apostles prophesied thousands of years ago.....don't cha hate it when someone knows you that well??!!
Many seem to mistaken clairvoyance with history and being "wise". Your version of a "religion" isn't that old and it's doomsday prophecies are late to the party. That comic scenario has already been served up over and over. Your voice is just weaker than say, Harold Camping.
In fact, even if you were to go back a a 100 or so years with a flashlight and a pocket calculator you'd probably be burned at the stake.
It truly is pathetic.
There may or may not be a hell, but there is a "hell on earth" and everything points to your mentality as the root cause. It's the same reason why you're avoided by people leaving the grocery store.
Megachurch pastor axed over cell pics of makeout session with teen......
Simply Google Jack Schaap = The Keeper of the Christianity.
Racaille.........good point! So many "Christians" cherry pick the Bible to believe what is convenient and ignore what they do not like.
The Christians I have seen do not possess love and understanding but an impossible dogma that borders on spite, hate and intolerance.
Churches are now a business. How much do you think the one where the pastor was axed brings in in "tithes" - Hmmmmmmmmmmm.......................15,000 in attendance? For what to support him and his "habit"
I have seen way too many Christians refuse to accept responsibility for their actions of infidelity, sexual relations with males and females both underage, and a plethora of other acts. Their response when CAUGHT? " That was not me it was Satan, God took control and now I am forgiven!" Why did God take control after the act and not the years it was happenening?
With divorce in America reaching 50% plus- the problem is not gays.
The fact that the one woman was able to get pregnant but her "husband" of 12 years still had to adopt should be a clue as to how unnatural the state of same sex couples are. It's got nothing to do with "love". Lots of studies which demonstrate the importance of a father and a mother in the upbringing process.
Brief response to post #1. Homosexual preists raping little boys and the vatican never decreed the act "ok".
Ok is perhaps not correct. Overlooked. Purposely ignored. Legally covered up. Perpetrator protected from repercussions. Pedophile STILL receives monies and positions of power from enabler and "procurer" of the desired sexual target. This doesn't sound any better.
@Conservative Rebellion
First, it's not her "husband," it's her wife - they are legally married as wife and wife! The fact that the wife who did not give birth has to adopt the child, shows that the laws ARE NOT KEEPING UP WITH SOCIETY!
Unnatural would be if their child was 5 years old when the birth mom died, and the child's other mom was unable to keep the child - forcing the child into the state foster system....that would be more than Cruel and Unusual punishment for the surviving mom and the child.... think about it for a minute!
Since children have to grow up with a mother and a father, how about we ban single parents? It seems to me that a kid would be better off with 2 mommies or daddies rather than just one. Almost half the kids born in this country are born to unwed mothers.
If two people want to get together and make the commitment to properly raise a child, why should we stop them? With all the single moms and dads out there (some doing a great job, others not so much), the "family composition" argument seems pretty invalid.
Black Kettle
It appears that you are lost in the wilderness.
Consider this. If the other person involved in this situation was a male who actually impregnated Ms. Bocalus then the question of parenthood would never be in doubt providing he had never given the child up for adoption. Even then, that is in question in some circumstances nowadays. A blood bond, if you will.
The "husband" in this circumstance has only the good will of the mother to rely upon. When/if they separate then the husband holds onto parenthood only by the good graces of the wife. Whether or not she is a fit parent.
"Ban single parents". Moronic.
Since children have to grow up with a mother and a father, how about we ban single parents?
No objection here.
Gay parenthood should be the ultimate oxymoron. Really. It's just ridiculous. Sick world we live in.
Why do perverts crave that which their proclivity does not provide for? These miscreants are using other peoples children as facades just to lend an appearance of acceptability to their depravity.
Randy, if you had bothered to read the article...assuming you CAN read...you'd know that one of the women in this married couple gave BIRTH to the child. Her wife simply needed to legally adopt the child in case something happens to the other mother.
Kav, if you've dealt with Randy as long as ErinNJ and I have, you'll realize Randy never deals with actual facts. Only his own opinions and prejudices.
Two moms? Sounds confusing.
The couple is one of many across the country who are raising some 2 million children in same-sex households
And these so called parents will be facing an uphill battle with these kids, trying to tell them that homosexuality is OK when the Bible tells them it's not. The sheer horror these kids are forced to live, betrayed for most of their lives. Tragic doesn't come even close to what these kids will suffer.
Confusing? Not really. That kid ain't gonna get away with anything.
The kids will be just fine. If they have trouble, its because of the bigoted scorn that "god-fearing christians" will heap on them.
The children won't be confused. They know they have two parents who love them from Day 1. Before they begin school, I'm sure it will be explained to them that most kids have one mother and one father, but some have two mothers or fathers. The kids will be fine. Kids love the family they grow up with, as long as they are well taken-care-of. Just like children who are raised by a single parent or by their grandparents are not confused.
If homosexual parents are as good as heterosexual parents (notice I said "good", not "loving", as they're not quite the same) then why do so many troubled youth who join gangs say they struggled with not having a father figure in the house, even though they had their mother and grandmother to raise them?
Not making any conclusions here, but I think it's a valid question.
This articles reads like it belongs on SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE
Give me a break !!!!!!
Gross, abomination of nature.
Disgusting...
Agreed. It is truly deplorable that it is so hard to become a parent of your partners child even though you have been married.
@arkivx -
You cannot have it all ways when you talk about "nature." What about heterosexual couples who cannot get pregnant and have another women inseminated with their child? Or the married female who takes a cocktail of hormone drugs to try and have a baby with her husband (those drugs don't exist in nature). The "inseminated women" is not having sex to get pregnant with a baby that is not biologically hers, and what about heterosexual couples who have their babies made in a petri dish and then inserted into the woman's uterus (in a doctor's office) in the hope she gets pregnant? The doctor inserted the "zygote" cells...not the hubby? None of that is natural or "in nature," but I guess you think it's fine as long as when the baby is born, it has a male and female parents? Seems to me your "God" didn't want those heterosexuals to have a baby or they would have been able to do the "natural" way?
Please explain? Should we revoke all heterosexual marriages that DO NOT produce a child? That seems to be your argument....
Why does today’s Christianity put forth God as vengeful, condemning, demanding, hateful, angry?
When I learned about God he was loving and all forgiveness. Why do today’s Christians want to live in
horror and fear of a condemning vengeful God? How does this belief in God bring you comfort? I believe God created all of us as we are and God does not make mistakes.
God Bless you both and your beautiful little baby.
@ EngEsq
Agreed. It is truly deplorable that it is so hard to become a parent of your partners child even though you have been married.
Now, how did you know RavenX was alluding to homosexuality by just uttering the word "disgusting"??? That's seems like a Freudian Slip, to me...
yeah, gotta go with the majority. Lies and deceipt. Don't walk the broad path, it only really leads to destruction. Follow the narrow path - to LIFE. Our sick and perverted society hates truth.
Scientifically, it is very bad to have a child raised by same sex parents. They are denied fundamental needs: the need to see what a woman and a man really are. The father is he who sparks femininity in a girl, and masculinity in the boy. The woman does not do that. Mothers demonstrate nurturing. Fathers LOVE the mother and teach their children how to make relationships last, (so that they won't be emotionally messed up by divorce as so many millions are) amoung many other roles that both play. This has been the plan of God all along. Open your eyes. How few people really comprehend. The "god" of this world has and will deceive many who will let him.
For all of you gay-hater's, what happens when a child's parent, either male or female is not in the picture? I think it is better to have 2 loving gay parents, than only one!!! I get so tired of all the hate mongers on here telling us the kids will suffer!!!! NOT!!!!! They are a lot better off than some of you are!
Absolutely 'Tucker J.' My thoughts exactly. No one said life was fair. I rather have a set of gay parents then live in an institution or foster home. God's first commandment was to 'love.' That includes each other. The hard part is loving some of these hate mongers. OR bigots.
Um, actually, scientifically, a child raised by same sex parents is as good off, or better off than a child raised by opposite sex parents. Unlike your statement, mine is supported by studies:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-9450.00302/abstract
Give me a science link.....your word does nothing for me, especially as a scientist... in REAL science, humans have three fundamental needs: Sustenance (food & water), shelter (incl. clothes), and affection...
These needs can be added too, but these are the basic and most important three - something two moms or two dads can do equally as well as a mom and a dad.
Those of you on this thread who are dissing a loving two-parent household, based solely on homophobia/religion - you do the same when a women is a single, young parent with no father figure in the picture..... You MUST keep the 'dream' of a "Leave it to Beaver," white picket fence household - NO MATTER who you hurt in the process. "Leave it to Beaver," is a fairytale, it's a TV show...fiction, stop presenting it as a doctrine everyone must follow.
http://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html
I don't see why the homosexuals have to use the word hate so much.Maybe it's the only way they can relate to disapproval of any kind.Kinda sad and expected from people who are so confused.
Dwight-927658 - I live in North Dakota with my mother. My dad lives in Louisiana. I am not deprived of anything from only seeing Dad once or twice a year. I can perfectly see what a man and a woman are.
You claim the father teaches children how relationships work? I say that's a lie. While women are not the bastions of virtue in all relationships, guys often contribute to the failure of a relationship - my father's relationship with my mother included!
Why does your 'God' get to tell the whole world what we can and can't do? We don't all believe in your God, and lots of non-Christians turn out just fine. Christians are not immune to divorce, single parenthood, or being gay. Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone.
@Eng actually, there are studies that suggest negative effects of homosexual parenting, but they don't get much attention and are automatically dismissed as biased because they don't support the liberal agenda. Sorry I can't give you a link, but I'm a new user.
Who's doing the research, NARTH, the American Family Association or the Family Research Council?
Are you talking about the study that was roundly condemned in the community it was published in because it decided that "having a homosexual relationship at any time for any duration" was equal to "an established homosexual partnership"? The one that chose mostly heterosexual families with obvious dysfunction that resulted from having homosexual affairs and ones where lies cause a member to come out as homosexual and seek divorce to represent all homosexual families?
Manwomangod and others sound like a Muslim radical, who are you guys to judge things? Thought that was left to your "god" to render judgement? Sounds like you are usurping that role, wonder how "judgement day" will play out in your final sentence. No compassion or mercy in any of your diatribes. Kids need love and help not hatred or predjudice being taught. None of the comments are any worse than a mullah or sheikh spewing their beliefs excepct you are in the proper country to let you do so. Unanimous condemnation is typical of the "christian/muslim" radicals who use the cloak of rightiousness to unilaterally condemn. The system is clogged with children who need help not hatred or prejudgement on who can provide and love them.
I've been in church for most of my life. I'm far from perfect but ask God for forgiveness and receive the Holy Communion whenever it's offered. When my pastor tells me my sins are forgiven, I know God forgives them, they are forgiven. I hear the gospel and try my best to heed God's word.
My faith is based on the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross to clear me of my sin. No-one will be able to stand before God on judgement day. But Jesus has made this possible. I know that I may be throwing my pearls here before some of the swine that posts here but you must know what Moses and the prophets have said about the coming of Jesus or you will never believe to have faith........even if someone rose from the dead.......you will never understand!
Well said Grannynanny!
It is easy to hide behind religion when a person is scared......................even an atheist called out to God as their life ended.
The God I worship is not ready to pounce on me and punish me for disobeying his word - the word that has been altered by man and influenced by prejudiced, hate and lack of compassion. The "Christians" in here are a disgrace to the word of God if all they can do is spew hate, intolerance and fear!!
Yes, God will punish people on judgement day for not following his word BUT rather their interpretation of what "they thought" was right.
So you're "judging" that those who disagree with same sex coupling are intolerant Christians while ranting about "judging".
Comical.
And the tragic results are readily apparent.
Well stated skrekk.
Basicly the word teachs us to love the person, but not the sin. God makes the final judment, but we all make them, and try to help the person change. It is like a father telling a child not to touch the hot burner on the stove. He does it through love, trying to protect the child. In the end if the father is not present, the child doesn't heed the advise of the father. and decides to touch it anyway, and gets burned. Was it the father's fault? No, the Child failed to heed the fathers advise. So they paid the price. Does the father stop loving the child? No, but hopefully the child learns. If not they will get burned again. The father and the rest of the family will make a judgement that the child did not obey, and will try again to correct the child's learning. But all will still love the child.
300M,
If Christians act like this out of love I would hate to see what they would do if they actually acted out of hate.
The greatest fiction ever written and perpetrated on humans is known as the "BIBLE".
"God is dead," signed Nitche
"Nitche is dead," signed God.
.........and here I thought it was the Harry Potter books.
Spoken from true godless person. I would suggest you acutally read it, until you understand it true message, instead of putting it down.
Harry Potter or the bible?
Bob,
"God is dead," signed Nitche
"Nitche is dead," signed God.
That's an old joke. People often quote Nietzsche as saying that God is dead, but they never give the full quote. So here it is:
"Have you
heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the
market place, and cried incessantly, "I seek God! I seek God!" As
many of those who do not believe in God were standing around just then, he
provoked much laughter...
Whither is God," he cried. "I shall
tell you. We have killed him - you and I. All of us are murderers....
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him..."
Friedrich Nietzsche. The Gay Science (1882), section 126
Notice that he puts those words into the mouth of a "madman". You have to realize that Nietzsche was not rejoicing over the "death" of God. He was talking about the shared cultural belief in God that was Europe's defining characteristic until the late 19th. century. He was not saying that God is dead in the sense that he died because that would imply that he must once have existed. He was saying that the Christian idea of God is dead because the cultural conditions in Europe have changed to such an extent that modern, educated man is no longer able to believe in such a God. The growth of modern science, and particulary Darwin's theory of evolution, had dealt a death blow to Christianity, and Nietzsche, as a great philosopher, recognized that fact at a time when Christianity was still a pretty powerful force in Europe.
Its just so far against the act of procreation that it seems suicidal to the human race.....and just think they're going to teach their child about the "birds and the bees"........I wonder what they're angle is on that?
These days, kids learn very early on about the "birds and the bees" and with more information about the subject than their parents ... who hope they never have to bring up the subject in the first place.
Suicidal to the human race? They're actually bringing more children into the world.
I think the human race is safe with its numbers. The population of the USA was about 200 million a few decades back. Now it is close to 350 million. The worlds population is increasing so fast, whose to say that gays is not Gods plan to control our overpopulation of the planet. If we keep going, earth will look like an ant hill. Think about it.
I've thought of that too Jonboy......not so much "gods" way.....but natures way.....whatever u believe.....evolution is an ever changing state and maybe in this case were just noticing it while it happens..
"Now daughter, you don't need a man. You never need a man. Another woman will do just fine. You have a choice. Just find a great tongue. Men are just gross and abusive. If you want a baby, see a doctor or adopt."
The greatest fiction ever written and perpetrated on human kind is the "BIBLE"
That is the problem, most that blaim it have never read it and understood it.
Michael, I have read it and understood it, but at the end of the day, I also see it for what it is...a work of fiction.
Calling a religious text "fictional" is the ultimate offense. Jamie 1234 if you have read the bible and understood it then you must know GOD loves loves you regardless and is looking out for you. If God and the Bible are so fictional explain to me why God has not forsaken you but you have forsaken him.
That's calling it for what it is. Let's see: Creationism = fiction! Adam & Eve = fiction! Great flood = fiction! Jesus resurrection = fiction! Yup, it's fiction. Deal with it!
How about proving there is a god. That seems like a necessity if you want your bible to have any validity.
Many books have become "Bibles" due to their sheer popularity. Scientology has the works of L. Ron Hubbard. Wiccans may use The Book of Shadows ( collection of many texts like the Christian Bible). I could go on, but i just don't care that much. But if you get enough to believe, it is believed to be fact. The same goes for LGBT. They are getting more people to believe tht this is a great lifestyle and in many ways superior to the way nature has produced children for millions of years.
You people are hateful and vile. What you should be saying is congratulations on your beautiful daughter.
I agree. She's a beautiful little girl and her mommies look like a sweet happy couple! I wish them the best of luck and a lifetime of happiness!
Thanks I am the father, A real american redneck, congrats....
And what happens in divorce? Who gets custody? Both will claim to be the "mother". Divorce laws are not prepared for that. Cases already exists and easy to look up.
What's next to become "acceptable"? 3-somes? 4-somes...already being proposed in California. If you discriminate against them, then you're all bigots. Wonder if the LGTB crowd will discriminate against them...How about animals or children? LGTB must support all kinds of unnatural love and adoption of kids. After all, what gives them the right to deny anyone regardless of how twisted or wierd their situation is? If you support this, you can not draw any limits on what is acceptable.
The homosexuals claim it is only about consensual "love". Well what if I as an adult "love" my mother, daughter, aunt, granny,cousin or whatever combination can be thought up? Can I without fear of legal or moral harassment go screw them if they consent as long as they are of legal age?
What is the difference.
It would be no different than any other divorce with custody dispute. They both are the child's mother and unless there is a reason for one to be excluded they would have joint custody like any other couple. All the heterosexual couples I know who divorced with children have JOINT custody. This is no different.
We already have. We have decided that two consenting adults can marry and be legally considered a family. You are the one with the sick mind....not them. They just want to be happy and raise a child. You should be ashamed of yourself.
The case for same-sex marriage is based on "equal protection." Heterosexuals may legally marry the one consenting adult to whom they are emotionally and sexually attracted. That right is denied to gays. It is as simple as that. Same-sex marriage DOES NOT open the way to multiple-spouses because no one is entitled to multiple legal spouses (so there's no discrimination involved). It does not open the way to marrying children or animals because there is no legal consent.
Kavoaq, 50 years ago any GLTB getting married would be considered sick as you put it. Things in the past that were considered taboo, now are considered normal. Killing a police officers was unthinkable years ago, now some look on it as a badge of honor. Just because things change, it doen't mean for the better. Not to mention GLTB marriage is still not the law in most states. And most states that actually voted on it, as opposed to have the court force it apon them have voted it down. So while I believe they have the right for legal and political acceptance of their unions, they should not call it marriage, as it depects religious acceptance of their unions. They should be given Civil unions, with the same rights as marriage, but not the chirch acceptance. You poo poo his suggestion on marriage to more then one partner, or different animal. But this could easly change as Gay Marriage idea is doing.
Just like a LIBERAL to distort a TREATY to suit themselves:
"The treaty, with this language, was submitted to the Senate by President Adams, and was ratified. Thus, opponents of the 'Christian nation' concept point to this seemingly official repudiation of the very idea. Yet the language is less a repudiation of the role of Christianity in the nation's heritage than a reminder that there was no national established church in the United States as there was in the European states with which Tripoli had previously dealt. This provided reassurance to the Moslem Bey and his religious establishment that religion, in of itself, would not be a basis of hostility between the two nations. None of the other similar treaties with the Barbary states, before or after this treaty, including the replacement treaties signed in 1804 after the Barbary Wars, have any language remotely similar."
I did no such thing. I have no moral objection to polygamy. I would hate to see the sourts sort out a 5 person divorce...but I see no moral problem with it. In fact the Bible most people in the US follow allows for polygamy.
Animals cannot consent to marriage, so that isn't a valid argument.
They have a right to a legal Marriage...just like the rest of us. Churches have nothing to do with legal marriage and can refuse to marry anyone they wish (and they do, on basis of race and etnic origin, all the time).
And just because something it "traditional" doesn't make it a good thing. Remember women weren't "allowed" to vote until 1920!!! My grandmothers were born with NO right to vote!! Horrifying!
Aquarius, whatever the objections may have been, the ONLY version that was ratified unanimously in 1797 was the version with Article 11 included; that is the version that appears in the Congressional Record.
Religion has nothing to do with secular marriage. People may marry even if one or more churches refuse to recognize that "marriage." Frankly, it is irrelevant what religion does or does not accept.
No it is not. You ignorant people are corrupting today's children. I feel sorry for the innocent baby in the photo with those sick lesbians. They're selfish. God made Adam and Eve, not Pam and Eve. And alas, why do you sodomites try and update today's modern versions of the Holy Bible by removing the word sodomite?! Can't handle God's truth, huh? The Gospel is made to offend. It is sharper than a two-edged sword. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. You cannot change the word of God and think us legit Christians will be quiet about it. Don't like it? Tough. The thing is Christians were not told to be of the world, we were called out of it. You're worldly, so you choose, leave us out of it and stop trying to change the word of our Lord and Savior. Pathetic. "Don't judge lest you be judged." That was told to those who refused to help people for how they looked, because the Pharisees would turn away the poor. In fact, we were told to test all things. And be ready to rebuke in and out of season. Gay rights? That's the saddest thing I ever heard. Also more sad how the ignorant Atheists were anal-sore and complained and had prayer removed out of the public schools. Keep pushing it, and I will see to it that much is done about it. Christians, let us gather and put a stop to this evil.
Jesus Christ is God incarnate. The great I AM. The Word became flesh and He died for the sins of the world. That the Gospel should be preached to all the nations for the remission of sins. Jesus Christ (Y'shua) died for our sins. He was buried, He rose from the dead three days later. Death cannot hold Him. Also, Jesus was not a victim. For the ignorant Satanic people who lie and say this and that. Jesus Christ was nobodies victim. He gave His life willingly.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Also the King James Version remains the most trusted and accurate. The Dead Sea Scrolls back it up fully.
The Atheist are rather pathetic. Aren't they the ones who believe that like, nothing exploded and created everything, even living organisms? Lololol!!!!!!!!!
That's nice. Prove it!
That story is completely illogical, and borrowed from earlier myths.
Which still does nothing to validate the claims made!
Wow, an ad hom attack. And here I thought you were a "good christian." >sarc<
We don't "believe." We accept or reject the premise based on the evidence available, which hapopens to support the Big Bang and evolution. But none to support your god!
That's nice. Prove it!
Can't prove there's a god, huh?
Didn't you just judge atheists? Talk about a hypocrite!
Perhaps you're unaware that the lawsuit to remove school mandated prayer was initiated by a theist? Perhaps you're also unaware that prayer has not been removed from public schools. Students can still pray on their own time. The school simply cannot mandate or endorse it. Oh, I guess you weren't aware of that! Um, oops.
Is that supposed to be a threat?
I like how people try and say there is no God, well if you do not believe in God then why try so hard to deny Him?
What exactly are you against if you do not believe in God?
This whole same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption is stupid...if women were meant to be with women then they would be able to procreate without a man! No matter what you do you still need a MAN to have a kid, haha. If you adopt, that kid still came from a man....sorry folks...
It's not hard at all. There is no god! See how easy that was?
Those who do believe in god who feel the need to push their beliefs onto others or try to limit other peoples rights!
They already can with invitro or artifical insemination. But procreation has nothing to do with marriage or personal relationships.
Again, what does that have to do with marriage, or adoption?
Ya and gay groups are not pushing their beliefs and ways upon everyone else? Stupid
Nope. You don't want a same-sex marriage? Don't get one.
You sound exactly like the people who were against ending segregation, or allowing interracial marriage. The sad part is you are completely blind to it.
The payment for bring a baby thru such filthy sin will be heavy for mom and mom or dad and dad.
Oh, and I am sure they lose sleep over that every night, dreaming about your devil with horns and a pitchfork coming to get them. Do you also still believe in Santa Claus?
No, it won't. How brainwashed can you be? Just wish them well, like you would any other caring family, please.
While I do not approve of the situation, the Child will have dificulties, most being the same as other children. Hopefully the chlld will be loved, and brough up to understand that their family is not normal, and can deal with the differances. But there will be tough times the child will go through, as kids can be cruel.
There's a reason why man + man doesn't = child. There's a reason why woman + woman doesn't = child.
God created things for us quite simply. There is only male and female. This is the very fabric and basic fundamental building block of LIFE. Male + female. When you combine the two, you = life. Even if you take God out of the entire equation, speaking from a mother nature perspective, the same formula still applies.
In addition... beyond "nature" and what's "natural" in the world... the foundation of a FAMILY is a father and mother. That's husband and wife. That's man and woman. That's male and female. That's not husband and husband, wife and wife, man and man, woman and woman, male and male, female and female.
Are two parents better than one? Sure, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT heterosexual parents! I'm sorry, but there are millions of single mothers and fathers out there who are perfectly capable of raising a child in this world if for whatever reason their better half isn't in the picture. I'm sorry, but two daddies and/or two mommies IS NOT a better situation compared to single parent having children.
I think homosexual couples who adopt children (which is 100% unnatural!) are very selfish individuals. They're not thinking of the child or children they're going to be raising in this world. Inside their home, perhaps they have things "under control" etc ... but that child or those children are going to have to eventually live in the REAL WORLD ... and at some point, there's a very likely possibility them having same sex parents COULD and probably WILL have a negative impact in their lives in the sense of them being confused... not understanding their own sexuality personally, or how the world naturally works.
I can't believe we're moving forward into a world where this will one day be accepted and commonplace. Oh, and I'm so damn sick and tired of pro-gay supports comparing this time in our history to interracial couples and what they went through. APPLES AND ORANGES PEOPLE! APPLES AND ORANGES! It's the same idiots using that comparison as the atheists who compare God to Santa Clause.
It's a sad time we live in folks.
Legend -
I must take exception to your painting this issue with such broad strokes. My wife and I separated when our son was 4 year old. I told her I was gay. She took the kid for a year, but fell on hard times. In the meantime, I was in a relationship with a man. We took my son in for the next 2 years. Wife found a great job and son returned to her. By mutual agreement, we took him back for another three years. This arrangement went on all the way through his elementary schooling and through college. He married his college sweetheart. They found great jobs and had 4 kids. He, his wife and children are very devout Christians. I am not. Go figure. Furthermore, all of us are in constant contact.
I don't believe that we are an isolated example in family relationships. Liken it to an extended family situation. Something I grew up in, but these days quite rare. So, this is actually a circumstance where all of us have and are living in the REAL WORLD. Would I accept the fact that there are dysfunctional families that are same sex oriented? Of course, but not anymore than just male/female based families. If the kids are raised with love and respect, any parent would only hope they succeed in life and be happy no matter what their family dynamic might be.
That "selfish" label has been thrown around a lot, and guess what? Most people don't care if society thinks they are selfish anymore. Just get over it, nobody cares if you call them selfish. Also, not everyone follows the Bible that you read. There are thousands of different religions all over the world, with entirely different beliefs. Why don't you travel outside of your neighborhood some day? Not everyone buys into your "one woman, one man" argument.
Most every religion on the planet detests homosexuality because it is not natural and is not in line with natural evolution which is rooted in the principles of biological science.
It's pathetic that you deviants always try to bash religious people when their beliefs are directly in line with scientific principles ... you have no leg to stand on in religious or scientific communities beyond those that work in areas of exploratory cell mutation and other manipulative studies.
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
Just like a LIBERAL to distort a TREATY to suit themselves:
"The treaty, with this language, was submitted to the Senate by President Adams, and was ratified. Thus, opponents of the 'Christian nation' concept point to this seemingly official repudiation of the very idea. Yet the language is less a repudiation of the role of Christianity in the nation's heritage than a reminder that there was no national established church in the United States as there was in the European states with which Tripoli had previously dealt. This provided reassurance to the Moslem Bey and his religious establishment that religion, in of itself, would not be a basis of hostility between the two nations. None of the other similar treaties with the Barbary states, before or after this treaty, including the replacement treaties signed in 1804 after the Barbary Wars, have any language remotely similar."
While i didnt read the story,that headline is just so funny! The whole gay idea so biologically wrong to start with.Im sorry for all you mentally ill folks.I do get tired of this sinful sick thinking being pushed on everyone else as normal.
Well, Josh, it seems that you're a legend -- in your own mind.
American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, National Association of Social Workers, American Academy of Pediatrics, 2006
Procreation is not a requirement for marriage, or vice versa!
Who created god?
Homosexuality exists in mother nature and has evolutionary benefits for a society. God is irrelevant either way.
Try selling that sanctimonious crap to single parents, adoptive parents, aunt-uncle or grandparent caregivers, ect.!
Merely your opinion. But there is no valid study which suggests children of same sex parents do any worse than those of hetero parents.
Feel free to join the real world anytime. Because your posts is certainly not indicative of it!
Sorry if you can't keep up with societal progress.
There's more credibility for Santa than there is for god!
Apparently, you're not familiar with nature, are you?
What "scientific principles" would those be?
I think many of you need to read both the bible, the bill of rights, and the civil rights act of 1964.
I believe the bible is real and true, and I believe more of the authors of the constitution were Christian than non-christian. They understood something that people don't seem to understand... Just because you believe something very strongly does not give you the right to take away another's choice.
I believe that is very clear in the new testament. Jesus offended many by speaking what God told him, but he never forced anyone to accept the Gospel, he did not take away anyone's choice to believe differently, nor did he advocate violence.
Two of the founding principles of our country was freedom of religion and separation of church and state. Religious groups including Christians can teach any moral values they want as guaranteed by the constitution. However, those values cannot legally be forced upon anyone, and the government does not have to support those values. By the same token, the government cannot force values upon a religion. Discrimination as it is described is not disagreeing. In Civil Rights Act, discrimination is related to employment, denying access to by profit organizations, treating one differently by those organizations. Religious groups can deny access based on their values. Small business under 10 employees are not bound by equal opportunity employment hiring practices.
For all of you that try to get so technical about the authenticity of the bible, the who world is governed by dead men and their thoughts. The men that wrote the constitution are dead, yet that document governs this nation. The bible has been around for a long time, and more people have read that than the constitution. If science is so great and the loose values being pushed today, why does society seem to be getting worse. There is more suffering than ever, and the power and wealth is definitely continuing to be more and more disproportionately distributed.
For all of you out there that say Jesus and God are not real because it is not proven by science, not everything can be proven emperically. One of the main principles of science is cause and effect, yet the prevailing theory is that our universe was created from effect without a cause. If I had the ability to create a piece of coal from nothing, how old would would carbon dating say it is. When you ask the right questions, many of the theories that are now accepted don't hold up.
How about "Not proven by history"?
The bible certainly can't be used as a historic measure of accuracy, it would be self-serving.
Consider: None of the gospils were written by Matt, Mark, Luke or John, and the oldest was written some 300 years AFTER the events it details? Plenty of time to basic fact-checking to make it sound plausible, but still ensure no future historian could ever match things up.
Remember the panic caused by HG Wells radio broadcast of War of the Worlds?
This is no different.
So much hatred and bigotry from so-called Christians. Didn't Jesus say do unto others as you want done unto yourself. Enough said.
People understood the inherent biological & natural flaws of homosexuality LONG before Jesus came through dummy ...
Really? So why didn't the Romans, Greeks, or Egyptians have a problem with it until Christianity came into the world?
You're an idiot if you believe that to be the case ... in MANY societies gays were cast away and sent outside the confines of the settlements of others. Of course that does not mean there weren't any mainstream societies that accepted gays but those have all imploded. There is no possibility of longevity in a gay society which is what my point was Jethro.
It's about the science, not your childish feelings dweeb.
LOL first, your childish insults would mean something, if I respected your opinion. Why don't you post all of these 'societies' where gays were cast away. Let's see how good your sources are. Homosexuality was in the world LONG before Christianity.
There is EVERY possibility of longevity in a gay society. Why? Heterosexuals keep having homosexuals, and homosexuals can produce children with lesbians. :)
Its about the science, history, and LAWS of this country not your childish feelings :)
Let's be honest here, there are a LOT of comments here from both "sides". The bible thumpers get on my nerves, but, so do atheists who also make their fair share of God doesn't exist comments.
What happened to having respect for the beliefs of others?????
ItsAbout Time:
Just saying, the Romans also didn't have a problem with gladiator games until Christians came into the world.
then prove god exists?
You're free to believe whatever you want. But belief is not automatically deserving of respect.
Many cultures recognized and accepted homosexuality long before Jesus came into the picture.
And you have no credibility if you need to resort to personal attacks.
Many societies today also accept homosexuality and homosexuality is a part of society, not an exclusive society unto itself!