I fully support the nuns, and I truly wish they would form an independent organization. The Vatican continues to be out of touch (I'm not sure that they've ever been IN touch, really) and clearly holds in contempt the mission that the nuns have chosen to help the poor and disadvantaged. The Vatican instead prefers that they would keep politically crusading against homosexuals and contraception. Seriously, with all the injustice that exists in the world, they fixate on those issues? Unbelievable.

I have not been a practicing Catholic since I was in my teens (and was forced to be even at that time by my parents) because it's always been easy to discern that the Vatican is a man-made institution with megalomaniacal claims to power.

What the nuns choose to do is to do what is right and just by their fellow humans, not what is politically dictated by the Vatican's Orwellian-sounding "Office of Doctrine". Cheers to you, sisters.

certain radical feminist themes

Like birth control and female enjoyment of sex?

The pope and bishops are moving fast to shut those ideas down before that kind of thinking gains hold in society.

Thought that was supposed to be Christ? Guess not.

• The nuns are out there ding the real work of Christ and the Pope and the rest of the old men Vatican big shots are sitting in their ivory towers pontificating.

Nuns and the world's entire female population should turn their backs on the very creepy boys' club that is the Catholic church -- and for God's sake, never let any children near it, either. Never has the term "Jesus wept" carried more meaning.

I have been a Catholic all my life up to 2 years ago. There are many things I have found out since reading multiple books for and against the Catholic beliefs. First lets make this clear, the Vatican was empowered by the Roman King not God. Don't get me wrong I have great respect for Catholism, just not the repressors. Nuns are the backbones of the faith and play a bigger part of the faith. Separating from the Vatican is not the answer. Help change the views would be a better start...and that would require the congregations help. Without followers...the Vatican is nothing. KOC member

The old boys club better watchout. The toughest women and even tougher than the retired marines I have known were the nuns that taught me in grammer school. Sister Benetta could diagram a sentence, do complex math and kick the @ss of a kid that had a two feet and 75 pounds on her.

No surprise here. The current RC adminisrtation is run by the former head of the Conference for the Defence of the Faith (and the Inquisition) and they consider themselves beyond the restrictions of any local laws while their surrogates continue to introduce legislation in the various state legislatures supporting their narrow views.(why don't they have to register as agents of a foreign entity? They most certainly are.) The Bishop of Philadelphia was recently convicted of the destruction of evidence in molestation cases on the demand of his superior who was a member of the bar in NY, Pa and D.C. and who certainly knew that it was patently a felony. If the orders to do so did not come from the CDF in Rome directly , I will eat one of those fancy red hats and matching Gucci pumps. These are the octogenarian zealots who are after these nuns whose only crime is to regard the well-being of their charges ahead of pimping their bigotry. A pox on their house.

While the men of the church just work with politics, the women actually help people.

What would Christ do?

The Nuns should continue to follow the teachings of Christ. The power hungry old men of the Church are going straight to HELL.

I was a practicing Catholic until about 3 or 4 years ago. As my Catholic upbringing was faiding, I began to recognize more the reasons why my faith was with the Lord and not the church. First, Christ built his religion. It's called Christianity, not the Catholic Church. Show me in any of the books of the Bible where the Catholic Church is mentioned by name. Second, it became hard to belong to a church what hid the fact that many of its priests were child mollesters. Third, about a thousand years ago, the Catholic Church actually had 2 popes. Forth, also during that period, the Great Crusade set out and killed thousands of non-Christians. Fifth, the Catholic Church was and still is out of touch with the world. I just could not put my faith behind the Catholic Church any longer. I recognized that the Catholic Church would not change. It was up to me. The nun's faith should be with God, not necessarily with the Catholic Church.

Nuns are unionized??

TMan-733417

Hey thought your god was all forgiving. So what the hey dude? Why get your panties all bunched up because the women of your sect wants out? So your god does know how to exact some evil upon men or women. Basically he's like every other god imagined up by men, they all act like humans eh.

I have great disdain for the catholic church. It's doctrine violates several of the original 10 commandments put out by God, like "Thou shalt not worship any other god" i.e. the pope, all the "saints" ect.

However, if the nuns remove themselves from the Catholic Church, how will they support their organizations financially? They can't. For goodness sakes, their organization has only managed to garner $60,000 in donations. The teased old lady on the school bus got $500,000 +. So, they will stay and continue to submit to an adulterated heirarchy.

In the US, there is a shortage of priests (who won't molest children) and the church decides to go all judge-mental om the nuns.

Not very smart.

This will not help stem the tide of those leaving the church.

What a different world it would be if the Catholic Church resided in the hands of women. I would love to see that monster money machine set out only to create and maintain wealth in the hands of people who would do good with it.

Imagine the people who could be fed and clothed. Imagine the people who could have medical care and housing. Imagine the great works of art that would be the property of the human race instead of the Catholic Church.

I for one will cheer if the nuns can take down this nest of greedy, misogynistic pedophiles.

Planet Earth will be a better place for it.

TMan says, "the great strength of the Church is its refusal to embrace schism." What does that mean in real life? The Church refuses to embrace the fact of the Orthodox church of the East? The Church refuses to embrace the fact of the many Protestant sects?

The Church Jesus established is based on the FAITH of Peter, not on Peter himself, the so-called "first vicar of Rome." Everything else is political, based on consolidation of authority, power and riches.

All organized religions seek to mediate between God and Human Beings, when no such mediation is necessary. And most want to be paid for the effort. God is the in-dweller in each of us, as all the saints and mystics of every tradition attest.

I hope the nuns do not let the Church stand between themselves and their Lord.

This will never happen, but another option is to give up superstition and instead just respect and treat everyone civilly. If someone's behavior isn't harming another person, live and let live.

Too radical an idea?

To the male leaders of the pedophile cult: Butt out! <pun intended)

You know, I just can't help but pipe in...

I see people spouting utter tripe like "I would love to see that monster money machine set out only to create and maintain wealth in the hands of people who would do good with it" and "The Nuns should continue to follow the teachings of Christ. The power hungry old men of the Church are going straight to HELL" and "Nuns and the world's entire female population should turn their backs on the very creepy boys' club that is the Catholic church -- and for God's sake, never let any children near it, either."

Do you people realize that this organization you're basically ready to scrap is the single most charitable organization in the world? People talk about "old men grasping for power" and whatnot, but I dare say, the people who are saying this are the ones who are so caught up on what tiny fractions of the Catholic body is doing, and political issues they take up cause with, that you are perfectly willing to trash the whole organization because you don't like some of their stances. News flash - you do that, and around the entire globe, you will create a charity vacuum which, simply put, not one other organization in the world has the interest to fill. Plenty have the resources, but not a one is willing to step up for this. If they were, they already would have, because we all know the need is there.

And yes, as has been said, the nuns are in many ways the backbone of this organization - but the "creepy old boys club" as it was called by several here is also part of what makes this organization what it is. And yes, again, what it is is the organization that does more charity work than any other in the world by a very significant margin.

Does the Church have big problems? Yes. Are they out of touch? In a lot of ways. Would they be well served by a shakeup? Darned tootin'. But let's see the forest from the trees here - for whatever bad they do which the media loves to pounce on, the Catholic infrastructure - and that's Catholic, not just the nuns - of doing good in the world is so pervasive, there aren't many regions in the world where you won't find some mission or school or shelter or program which the Church organizes, funds, that brings good into peoples' lives. If the media didn't focus on each and every single unpopular thing they did so much, and put a fraction of that attention to the good they did, some of you people might change your tunes at least a bit.

And, for the record, not a Catholic, not a believer in any God - but I DO believe in humans doing good for others. The Catholic Church continues to be the world leader in this area, even if some of their views are ones I strongly disagree with. The knee jerk and media-funneled views I'm seeing expressed here are just troubling.

Rarely has ANYTHING been changed by abandoning it and moving on.

But I dont fault the nuns for feeling compelled to breakaway and become independent.

When a former Nazi is your pope and telling you to focus on gays, abortion and birth control...rather than the ACTUAL TEACHINGS OF CHRIST...the writing is pretty clear on the wall. ANTI-CHRIST INDEED!

Well all of the things they are supposed to be doing politically is actually illegal in this country to do and so their tax exempt status should be removed.

Secondly, I cannot believe with 2000 years and monumental scientific evidence that people still believe in the tripe of a bible. Grow up people, there is no God that is going to take care of you forever. You get a hundred years give or take and then your worm food or cremated.

or upper mgmt can be changed. women have never meant much to the rcc and that is the problem. the old men who protect child molesters and pedophiles should be removed. they are a disgrace to jesus. who do you think jesus would support the priests or the nuns? i think i know.

SteveJNB, "the organization that does more charity work than any other in the world by a very significant margin."

What percentage of the charity work done by the Catholic Church is actually performed by the nuns, do you think?

The article says American Catholics support the nuns. Hardly! I'm sure there is a percentage of American Catholics who support the nuns, and what may I ask is that percentage? This isn't the first time in church history that church members have questioned church doctrine, see the Reformation, and yet the church survives. If the nuns decide to become independent of the church good luck! I would respect there decision but wonder how they would survive? They have no king of England to support there independence.

The Pope said "It's not the duty of nuns to help the poor, you need to prioritize yourself more against homosexual".

Way to go Pope, show the world what you really care about.

Steve - so what you're saying is that if Good Catholics didnt have the Catholic Church to give their money too, Good Catholics would just stop giving money (and their time) to help the less than fortunate?

Doesnt sound like they are very good catholics Christians then.

Educated Nuns trump Men in pointy hats

For those telling the nuns that they signed up of their own free will and should suck it up are missing the main point.

The nuns are doing the work of Jesus by focusing on the poor and disadvantaged. The Vatican wants them to stop helping people and start a political crusade against homosexuality, abortion, and contraception (funny how they're against contraception which would reduce the need for abortion).

The Vatican is trying to exert their will on all women and keep women's rights suppressed. Not that different from a large number of Islamists, huh?

I would love to see a church as big as this one break into a women's church. I think it would be very interesting to see the changes. Maybe its time for a big change. Sisters united I would love to see it!!! Blessings to you Sisters! This has to be hard for you all.

Why anyone believes in Catholicism is beyond me...

Man is the Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Ani­mal. He is the only animal
that has the True Religion, several of them.
He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself, and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brothers path to happiness and heaven. He was at it in the time of the Caesars, he was at it in Mahomet's time, he was at it in the time of the Inquisition, he was at it in France for a couple of cen­turies, he was at it in England in Mary's day, he has been at it ever since he first saw the light, he is at it today in Crete (as per the telegrams quoted above) he will be at it somewhere else tomor­row. The higher animals have no religion. And we are told that they are going to be left out, in the Hereafter. I wonder why? It seems questionable taste.~Samuel Clemens

STEVEJNB--

That isn't charity you're seeing. It's marketing for membership of future paying souls.

Our local hospital has become a Catholic hospital. It is now poorly run, poorly managed, and sent me a bill for $10,000 for rolling a machine into my room that was never used. I have been trying to talk to the "nurse auditor" for three months to no avail. I am fully covered by insurance, but I am deeply offended by this "mission" hospital running up bills based on fraud. And every time I call, I am on hold for at least 20 minutes waiting for a live person to answer while I listen to how they treat as "sacred" every "encounter" in the hospital. It's enough to send me back to the emergency room with nausea.

The Catholic church is about re-allocating money, not about real care. Yes, the nuns care, and they can see that the institution of the church is an abomination.

I think it is a safe bet to say the nuns can accomplish a lot more on their own and do a lot more good. The Vatican and said priests have made it clear by their response that the nuns are considered nothing but second class citizens in the church they have loved and served so loyally for centuries. The time of Vatican control has come and gone. It's time for a change.

Know what has been the biggest/newest thorn in the Catholic Churches side? The internet. People are no longer alone if they were abused by a priest. The internet has banded them into one hell of a monster the Church can't control. If it were not for this communication, do you think ANY priests would be seeing jail time? I don't think so. This ability to collect and become a voice that can't be ignored is their (the Churches) newest "evil".

The Catholic Church is a mental masturbation.

The current Pope is especially out of touch with the membership of the modern Catholic church and has been acting like he is from the 15th century. The best thing that could happen to the church would be for the nuns to revolt and tell the Vatican to get a life and quit trying to dictate to everyone else. The Pope is no more the messenger of God than an Ayatollah.

Okay, Harry (Msg. #1.14), I don't have a dog in this fight, not being a Catholic (or Christian or religious at all - in fact, I'm agnostic; I'd be an atheist but I don't have enough faith to believe in no God, let alone in any particular one...), however, your notions are just screwed up, leading one to question if you ever, really were "Catholic".

"Catholic" isn't mentioned in the Bible because it's just an adjective meaning "universal". That said, however, there is both a secular and a Biblical basis for the Catholic Church. Biblically, of course, there is Christ's grant of authority to Peter ("upon this rock - i.e., Petros, which sounds the same as the Latin word for 'rock' - I will build my church"). Since Peter (who was martyred by Nero) was considered the first "Bishop of Rome" (the official position of the Pope), all subsequent Bishops of Rome have inherited that leadership mantle. Moreover, when the Roman Empire embraced Christianity, Constantine did so in conjunction with and by grant of privileges to the then Bishop of Rome (tho' the "Donation of Constantine" is a later forgery, the facts of his conversion support the grant of both religious rights and secular power - and territories, most particularly the Lateran Palace and Vatican Hill - to the representatives of the established Church, i.e., the proto-Catholic Church).

As far as the Crusades are concerned, you need to put them into perspective. What they were was a 200 year attempt, by BOTH the eastern (Orthodox) and western (Catholic) Christians to recapture some of the Christian lands which had been forcibly stolen by the Muslims. Before the first Crusader headed off, the Muslims had been invading and taking over Christian lands for 450 years, killing and enslaving millions of Christians. For the next 200 years, the Christians fought back, however, once the Crusades failed, the Muslims went back to conquering Christian countries, persisting in those aggressions for at least another 400 years. That's hardly a "blot" on Christianity (or on the Catholic Church, particularly, insomuch as it was the Orthodox Byzantines who begged the western Christian powers to help them out when the Seljuk Turks were battering at the gates of Constantinople and destroying Christian shrines in Jerusalem and throughout Anatolia and the Mideast).

Also, there were NEVER "two popes, one east and one west" - the position of "Pope" exists only in the Western tradition. The Patriarchs of the various Orthodox groups (Greek, Russian, Armenian, etc.) have never styled themselves as "popes" or asserted the powers and perogatives exercised by the Popes (and for you pettifoggers out there, I am well aware that there were, at times, more than one Pope, incl. pretenders, anti-popes, a French Pope in Avignon and an Italian one in Rome during the "Great Schism"/"Babylonian Captivity", etc. - that wasn't Harry's point, which involved the Latin vs. Greek traditions).

The child molestation issue IS a blot on the Church, but reflects on the practices and abuses of some of its members, not on its dogma. It's like saying that you don't believe in the Constitution because we occasionally have a bad President.

Finally, the assertion that the Church was/is "out of touch" is, at best, a highly subjective and personal opinion. One might consider, for example, that those denominations which preach acceptance (even for the priesthood) of homosexuals are in direct conflict with both Old and New Testament injunctions referring to the practice as an "abomination". If the Catholic Church were to suddenly change its position and to declare homosexuality a sanctioned behavior, it might find itself more "in tune" with the current view of, at least, the western world, but one might question its right to interpret the Word of God in such a way as to utterly flaunt a clear, supposedly God-inspired prohibition. Put simply, being steadfast in the face of social faddism is hardly a condemnation of the Church which would withstand Biblical scrutiny (and, btw, I'm not the least bit homophobic, but you just can't read the Bible as approving it, no matter how hard you try).

I mean, really, Harry, you can believe any damn thing and in any damn way you want (I, personally, don't believe in Cosmic Santa Clauses, but, hey, whatever you want), but your stated "reasons" for supposedly abandoning the Catholic Church are unhistorical hogwash and, as I noted, lead me to doubt that you ever were, as you claim, Catholic.

B-2454409...It seems you missed not only the point but the truth...

Jesus said NOTHING about abortion, contraception, or homosexuality. If you want the views "straight from his lips" as you say then you MUST find that the nuns are following his words while the hierarchy of the church is following the bigotry and misogyny of man.

The real problem with the Catholic church is that it is aligning itself with the anti-christian evangelicals and fundamentalists especially in US. And it is for that reason that I have excommunicated the church from my life. These christianists are the true evil in our world. And ALL churches engaged in political activity must lose their tax exempt status... I'm talking to you too LDS -- keep your magic underwear out of my legislature.

More phoney jacka$$ men trying to tell women what to do. Yes, those pius child molesters and/or child molester protectors really think they know it all. Break away from the whole Vatican facade. It took people speaking out and taking action just to get the church to start facing the molestation of thousand of children. They have zero credibility.

Just setting an example here for all the lunatics claiming every Catholic priest is a pedophile, or even most of them, or even 25% of them...ready? Here we go: all blacks are lazy ass murderous thugs because they are black, all women are dumb because they are women, all mexicans work in the fields and are here illegally because they are Mexican, all middle-easterners are terrorists because they are middle eastern, etc. etc. The sad thing is that those of you who generalize the entire Catholic Clergy as gay child molesters are the same people who piss and moan and cry and whine about people saying they don't support gay marriage and you call them racist biggots full of hate. Well take a good hard look at yourselves now; NONE of you are any different, you all sicken me. You think you're so damn righteous...pathetic. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

criticism of the nuns' alleged lack of fidelity to Catholic teachings

Lack of fidelity? Are you kidding me? Where in the Catholic teachings does it say that priests can molest young boys? And they are worried about nuns not being outspoken about gay marriage and abortion? Religion is no better than politics - all smoke and mirrors.

CME mgmt - when your temporal earthly "higher management" disregards the dictates and leadership of the ultimate manager it is time to look for something else or start working for change.

ybluepanda -

it's not me with a lack of understanding. Mathew 19:5-6 is pretty clear on the man woman thing, from Jesus lips. plus Jesus clearly stated he was not replacing the law but fulfilling it. all over the old testament are statements directly against homosexuality. you can't pick and chose what you want to hear and believe. just because "today" people think it is ok does not mean that it is. and abortion is murder plain and simple because it is clearly stated in the bible that life starts at the moment of conception. he formed us in the womb, remember? now contraception, that's one of the areas where I don't agree with the Catholics. too many people here want to condemn the entire organization based on the actions of the few. kind of like saying every administrator at PSU is a child molester because on the Sandusky case. there are a lot of good people in the catholic church.

Why don't the nuns just break out the rulers and start smacking the bishops' knuckles, and then make them clean the blackboards and erasers? It made us do whatever they demanded. Instead, they now want to have meetings and committees and conferences and dialogues and all that other schmaltzy stuff. Just start whacking! Do what worked for you girls in the past!

Sisters smack the little children! All the children in the class! Chewing gum and talking back, they were slapped until bruised black! Sisters smack the little children in the class!

Where in the Catholic teachings does it say that priests can molest young boys?

It doesn't. Those priests chose to ignore the rules (and civil behavior) and were justly punished (jail, lawsuits, loss of their position). Rightly so. Same for the nuns. If you don't like Catholic doctrine, don't be Catholic. This wholly American concept of "I'll do as I please" and to hell with what you think because it makes me feel good is exactly the same attitude of the pedophile priests.

Let's apply the same logic of many here to sports. Let those playing soccer (beside the goalie) use their hands when they feel like it. At that point your not really playing soccer are you?

Steve stated: "Do you people realize that this organization you're basically ready to scrap is the single most charitable organization in the world?"

Uh huh Steve, figure their total monetary value in assets, and how much they "give", then tell us all how that follows the teachings of the Christ. When a church is rich enough to declare itself a state, don't expect everyone to buy into it. If you don't understand the meaning behind what I just stated, then you are no better than those who run the church.

The largest problem I see with the public perception of the Catholic Church is that not many people have read or have knowledge of the history that brought the Catholic church to today. During the time after Christ died, until about 900 ad, many "Scholars" had taken an interest in writhing about religion and the Apostles in particular. There is a great deal of information pertaining to this subject but to offer a condensed version I will just say that the Remnants of the once powerful Roman Empire hijacked the life of Christ and used it to control the far reaches of the once Roman Empire. They used the life of Christ(New Testament) and the Hebrew/Jewish Old Testament. This Old Testament is the foundation for so much suffering and blood shed even today because people have used it in the strictest terms to control others as was the purpose Moses wrote the laws.

I would LOVE to see the NUNs start their own independent organization. Do you know why there are pedophiles in the Catholic church? It is because they create a secret place for them to hide and work their personal agndas. It happens something like this. Young boys that are exploring "feeling" of attraction to the same sex cannot openly come out and be a homosexual for fear of reprisals and punishment from their families and church. These boys and girls will go to a trusted person of authority, namely the priest or preacher. If this person happens to be a sexual predator, he will reach out to the child as a trusted friend and a relationship begins where it is cloaked in a veil of silence. This, my friends is how these monsters operate in every place where there are children in organizations.

By exercising blind faith that creates hatred and hypocracy, they offer safety for the very animals searching for children.

Lazarus

All I can say with the nuns is "Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out."

Scripture is Scripture, period. Nuanced stuff can be debated, the hard points cannot.

Never really enjoyed the nunnery anyway. Taking good marriage material off the market is one of the stupidest things the religion could do to ensure it's own destruction. Same goes for priests. And it isn't even in Scripture that Priests or women cannot marry. It's made up dogma, and any honest priest or nun will tell you that. There may be 'reasons' behind the dogma, and historical inferences they try to pull from, but zero in scripture.

SteveJNB

so caught up on what tiny fractions of the Catholic body is doing, and political issues they take up cause with, that you are perfectly willing to trash the whole organization because you don't like some of their stances.

all i can say is "holy mother of ......" i hope i read that wrong.

and really, the money they make will go to another entity. those church-goers who left those churches, they will go back to church...just not that one or the ones like it...but those people will donate to a new church, and they will continue to do so under a roof that is best suited for them....but to tell people not to quit the church because the are going to force suffering....I will never buy that NEVER. To hid behind charity is got to be the worst thing someone can try to put on anther person...its simply fear tactics..the same tactics that people are shouting against from their roof tops.

Wize - Those priests chose to ignore the rules (and civil behavior) and were justly punished (jail, lawsuits, loss of their position).

Justly punished? Being shuffled from one church to another isn't justly punished.

The Roman Catholic Church is a an all male operated political organization. Begun approximately 1500 years ago, it has not changed much since it was founded. It still follows the same precepts from the dark ages. Its aristocratic leaders or Cardinals still choose their king or Pope. Because the church is centered in Rome, usually an Italian Cardinal was chosen as Pope.

The Catholic Church has as part of its dogma that it is, on matters of doctrine, infallible. Therefore, if the nuns are questioning church doctrine, they are, in effect, questioning the infallibility of the Catholic Church. For this they can be excommunicated. In prior centuries, they would, by this point in time, already have been hung, drawn & quartered, put on the rack, been subjected to other tortures or simply burned at the stake. Some in the Catholic Church still miss the old days.

didnt Christ set out to change what was..... do you really think that he only wanted change for his day and not ours??

Im pretty sure he was, do what you have to to me, but set everyone else free of it....didnt he stand up for himself?? I believe he did (i dont care if those are not real words someone wrote on his behalf ...its what i belive).

B - nothing in the bible is "right from Christ's lips". It's all hearsay. It has been interpreted and passed down through the centuries by people who changed words and meanings based on their beliefs and their agenda. Nothing in the bible was written by Christ. You are soooooo wrong. Have you ever played "Telephone" at a party? I rest my case.

"All I can say with the nuns is "Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.""

Cniht, it's good that you don't have any say in it.

"Scripture is Scripture, period."

Real Scripture, or the Scripture that the church teaches? Big difference, they're not the same.

"Taking good marriage material off the market is one of the stupidest things the religion could do to ensure it's own destruction."

Marriage material??? Having a problem finding a date there Cniht? Don't take your problem out on the nuns.

Being shuffled from one church to another isn't justly punished.

Bishops aiding and abetting that behavior were just as guilty. I agree. Much like referees ignoring blatant violations in sports. If players cheat in soccer and referees allow them is it soccers fault?

Despite the obvious cover-up in America those still living were prosecuted quite vigorously.

Guys, all human organizations, even religious ones, have their issues. I hope the Sisters do what is right in order to set things right somehow. The priests who have done wrong must acknowledge their guilt and the Sisters must remind the priests that their holy orders are to do charity, not to bash people.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24)

How in the world does the Pope and the Vatican follow the teachings of the bible?

There is noting preventing these 'nuns' from leaving the Catholic Church if they do not want to adhere to it's teachings.

They are free to form their own religion and determine for themselves what beliefs they want - including women as ministers, sanctifying gay marriages and lesbian relationships, idol worship, abortions, polygamy or anything else that they think is appropriate. They can even write their own version of 'holy scriptures' to justify their beliefs.

Nobody is forcing them to stay as Catholics - and of course, nobody will be forced to follow their new 'religion'.

But if they are going to publicly defy the teachings of the Catholic Church and its representatives, they should resign

Roy,

You have determined that the "Catholic Church" is the pope and some guys that wear funny hats. Other people think that the catholic church is actually all the members collectively. If there are more followers who believe in a different policy and want their church to practise the faith differently maybe it's the guys with funny hats who should resign. Who is the catholic church the pope or the congregation?

They are free to form their own religion and determine for themselves what beliefs they want

That's very easy to say, but not very practical when the boys hold all the poker chips. Freedom is very difficult to attain when you're forbidden to accumulate personal/organizational wealth.

If they do make the move, they could gain many financial backers, including myself, and hopefully give catholics a place to actually hear and live Christ's true messages and not some false deity labeling himself "the pope".

All I can say regarding the pope and the Vatican, power corrupts

Only in America,

Do you make stuff up as you go along?

Scripture is the book, and by now hopefully education has advanced far enough that you can use your own reading comprehension to learn what is in the book, or books plural. Not rely on someone to feed it to you a spoonful at a time. If you are deficient in that category then I pity you.

With regard to marriage and nuns. I have no problem pulling a date, dates, or a wife. Already got one. I'm taking the factual, logical, and rational approach (all of which Christ teaches and to subdue emotional choices) that saying virtuous, hard working, moral, ladies should instead be closed off to the world and or devoted to some charitable pursuit to the point of eschewing a completely normal part of the own biology and forgoing the family is pure sophistry and at worst factual fallacy. It also reduces the chances that the children of the remaining women in the church will actually RAISE their kids within the religion. Which is the true cause of the 'decline' of Christianity.

Logic is my sword and shield (both provided by Christ), sir, try some.

Ah - the catholic church -- where raping of children is acceptable (and priests can do no wrong) and where all women are supposed to be uneducated, barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

So - the response to child molestation is to move the priest to a new location (so that he can do it again), and the response to nuns helping the poor is condemnation? Those stupid nuns are supposed to condemn those gay types, not help the poor. Didn't they study the bible - where Jesus told people to hate those different then 'us'. Instead they listen to the fiction that Jesus told people that how they treat the weakest among us is how they treat Jesus.

I'm not sure what the controversy is here. The Catholic Church is a religion. Duh...... Part of the church teachings is that the Pope talks to God and the hierarchy determines what the theology is. If the nuns decide to defy the hierarchy, then they shouldn't be surprised if they are no longer nuns. The idea of forming a separate organization is laughable. The Catholic Church supports them now. If they form their separate "organization" then they are no longer supported by the Church and have to do a heck of a lot of fundraising to support themselves. Don't get me wrong. I don't don't agree with a lot that the Church preaches, which is why I'm not a Catholic. But, the idea that the paid "flock" doesn't have to follow the teachings of the church is absurd. I mean, seriously, if you work for Burger King, do you really not expect to be fired if you spend your free time publicly preaching about the evils of Burger King and encouraging everyone to dine at McDonald's instead?

Part of the church teachings is that the Pope talks to God...

Uh, commenting as a non practicing catholic, that was never taught to us in catholic school. Did I miss the part where the pope was given the unlisted and private, direct line to the top poo bah upstairs?

Anyone here who wish to support the nuns - please go here and help them out: http://nunjustice.org/

Cradle Catholic in solidarity with the nuns.

marklepew "Roy, You have determined that the "Catholic Church" is the pope and some guys that wear funny hats. Other people think that the catholic church is actually all the members collectively."

Since I'm not a Catholic, I certainly am in no position to 'determine' who the Catholic Church is, but I suspect that about 2,000 years of history is on the side of the Pope and his Bishops when it comes to church doctrine. Your analogy is flawed - Is the U S Government merely 'all the citizens collectively', or is it the duly elected/appointed administrators who are empowered to act on behalf of the citizens?

In the same way, the Catholic Church hierarchy is the duly constituted authority of the Catholic Church, and if there are members that no longer wish to be members, nobody is forcing them to stay, but to directly challenge those in authority and then pretend to be submissive to them flies in the face of reason.

To quote a scripture at Mark 3:25;

"And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

The idea that a few liberal feminists in the United States are going to change church doctrine for the estimated 1 billion Catholic in the World is laughable.

So, the Pope is then just an elected leader and is given dictatorial powers to decree as he sees fit? So, what makes him different from any other political figure? As you say, he has no direct line to god, so what makes him so special? What makes him any different from, say, Obama? Obama was elected President of the US. So, all US citizens shouldn't question anything he does, and just blindly follow him? Then, what makes the Catholic Church so special if every who is Catholic should feel free to do as they please and agree with the Pope or not, as they see fit? You apparently seem to think that it is OK to be Catholic and say, well, I don't believe that the Pope is right about birth control, so, I'm not going to follow that, after all, it's just his opinion and doesn't affect any of us Catholics? What's the point?

Tman...BALONEY! These nuns know more about the "mediation of Christ's saving mercies and reconciliation" than that unrepentant Nazi (yes, he really WAS one) in Rome will EVER know!!!

the pope was at one time a general. That was the position. The bible has been re-invented many times in it's history. The council of Athens removed 2/3rd's of the books from the bible. The Vatican has the full copy, and they will not let anyone else see it. At one time it was okay to disagree with the pope. Priests were also allowed to marry till a few hundred years ago. The vows the sister took were too the sisterhood that they joined which has different set guidelines. The American nuns mainly are focused on charity. The Vatican originally approved those guidelines when they allowed the formation of it. The current administration is now telling them that there base charter is being changed after the fact. This isn't normally the procedure. They normally disband them, and allow them to form a new one, which would meet the rules, or join a different one. I will say that the current Pope has shown to me at least that he works for the other guy.

Roys quote, "The idea that a few liberal feminists in the United States are going to change church doctrine for the estimated 1 billion Catholic in the World is laughable.", and ""And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.", unlike Jesus asking his 12 followers to gather fish. Roy's idea is to eliminate those who have a opinion, from the "house", or the powers in the "house" to have more control. In business/government nothing would get done if we did not bring in innovation or contrarian debate from within. Making a "exclusive club" out of either Government or Religion is wrong to most but not to all.

"Scripture is the book, and by now hopefully education has advanced far enough that you can use your own reading comprehension to learn what is in the book, or books plural."

How about YOU getting something straight here Cniht, and while you're at it, show me proof where I said that the Bible wasn't scripture? And as for reading comprehension, you sir, are very much lacking in that area. I said the "CHURCH" wasn't teaching the real scripture, again, and get it straight, they are not the same thing. What the Bible says, and what the church teaches, is two different things. They teach it as being literal, when it isn't literal, it's all allegory. If the Bible was a history book, yes, you would read it and take it literally, but it's not, it's a book about spiritual consciousness, and how humanity can reach spiritual consciousness.

"Logic is my sword and shield (both provided by Christ), sir, try some."

Lol, uh huh. Both provided by Christ? Far from it Cniht, more like they are provided by your own ego.

Screw the signs - whack 'em with the bullet pointer and the foot ruler.

The Pope is a guy that wears a pointed hat or a beenie, a dress and designer shoes, all of a monetary worth which would support so many poor or sick people it is impossible to count.

i was raised a Catholic untill at age ten when I was "interned" in a Catholic bording school for two years where I was witness to many atrocties that were sexual and/or sadistic in nature including the murder of a deaf child who one of the priests was ripping out his anus and finally choked him to death and threw him in the pool in an attempt to hide his crime.

I was also witness, like a fly on the wall, of the coverup and learned how the system of moving those perverts around was common business.

I do believe that the teachings of Jesus, whether he actually existed or not, is the best message to humanity. However, I am an atheist.

Regardless of its beginnings, the history of the Catholic Church is demonic at best.

It is fair to say there are many wonderful, charitable and Christ-like people in the church but the hierarchy, the Vatican dwellers, and the Pope, Cardinals and Bishops are the anti-christ.

I wish there was a way to shut down the Vatican, sell its many billions of dollars worth of wealth and destribute it to those in the Church that indeed do the charitable work of Jesus.

Catholicism has been on the decline for quite some time. the whole issue of raping boys just sped things up and caused more to question their true purpose (which is no longer helping people). The true purpose of the Catholic church and our Nazi Pope is to retain their power, wealth and influence, or in one word their RELEVANCE. We are about 1 or 2 generations away from religion playing little or no role in our society. Today's youth simply don't buy the BS and grew up with stories of how men in position of religious power continually betrayed their followers. Having "faith" is a wonderful thing and everyone should experience, but modern religion is a tool for social and mind control. Look at where the most religious aspect of our country are located........that is correct in the same areas with the lowest education levels. Just sayin...........

Bob-1920561 "In business/government nothing would get done if we did not bring in innovation or contrarian debate from within."

But that would not include a General in the Army or his soldiers saying to the Commander in Chief "We don't like how you do things, so we're going to do them our way".

Just as soldiers take an oath to obey their superior officers, so too do nuns take an oath to obey their superiors.

But unlike soldiers who disobey orders and might be court martialed, nuns are free to leave their positions without punishment - all they have to do is say "I quit", and then they can express their opinions to all who will listen.

I wonder how many of Obama's staff would last very long if they said "I disagree with Obama, and I think we should do things completely differently". They could certainly do so, but they should consider the consequences - just as the nuns should do.

But that would not include a General in the Army or his soldiers saying to the Commander in Chief "We don't like how you do things, so we're going to do them our way".~Roy W.

Happens all the time just check the articles today about the military in China telling the Chinese President that they will have a bigger say in policy.....or else. The pope is powerless without the congregation. If you really think being in a position of power will protect you from the masses you might be well served to see what happened to Czar Nicholas, Marie Antoinette, Bashar Assad, Shah Pahlavi........

Roy, your analogy is absurd. Each is in their own right, and to use one to compare another, again is your submission to "higher authority", as when you say "Since I'm not a Catholic, I certainly am in no position to 'determine' who the Catholic Church is, but I suspect that about 2,000 years of history is on the side of the Pope and his Bishops when it comes to church doctrine". Your innuendo thinking will not open new doors of thinking or relating, but harbor rightous obediance, that is not a individual freedom.

HEY "OLDEFARTE" #1.44

I read your post with interest, as I also have no dog in this fight. In my view, you have a grasp of some of the history, but you are leaving out important things that bear on Catholic hierarchical structure and authority.

First: When Jesus said "upon this rock I will establish my church" He has been interpreted (by many serious Biblical scholars) to mean upon the faith Peter evinced, not upon Peter himself, first vicar of Christ or Bishop of Rome notwithstanding. Jesus statement is not necessarily seen as conferring authority on the Vatican.

Second, The earliest Christian communities did not know what the dogma and creed were or how to behave as "Christians", so they asked the disciples who had direct experience with Jesus, like Paul, who visited them and wrote them letters, the "Epistles," telling them what they thought Jesus must have meant and what they thought He wanted from them.

One can tell that they did their best to use their intelligence and experience from being with Jesus to address issues that Jesus is not recorded to have addressed directly. Like can anybody be a Christian, or do you have to be a circumcised Jew first (is Christianity a sect of Judaism or a stand-alone thing open to all)?. Like, how do Christians marry, or should they be celibate? They answered these and many other questions, which later became doctrine, out of personal opinion or because they wanted it to be so. No infallibility there.

With regard to the celibacy of the clergy: for many centuries, clerics, if they did not marry, nevertheless had children, and passed on their Church wealth and position to their sons. The Popes, too. But eventually, it was decided that both the lower orders and higher could not marry because it diluted the material power of the church (i.e., those at the top). The eastern Orthodox church solved the problem differently: men can marry before they are ordained, but cannot rise in the hierarchy farther than parish priest. No dynastic concentration of wealth in any given family possible.

As time went on, the personal opinions of the apostles and early church men became dogma, not because Jesus conferred authority on them, nor because of any particular exalted spiritual status they had themselves, but because they had behind them the secular power and say so to establish control. In the event, gospels of the New Testament that may have challenged their world views and preferences were left out and suppressed, for instance, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, so not so "Catholic" after all.

With regard to the separation of Catholicism from the Orthodox church, this was an event in the dissolution of the Roman empire that had little to do with which church was the real church. Both churches claim to be both Catholic which as you say means universal, and also "Apostolic" which means established by one of the original disciples and companions of Jesus. The eastern Orthodox church did not accept the so-called authority of the Pope because that was seen as a secular Roman authority, at a time and place when church and state were not separate.

Finally, with regard to the validity of Biblical injunctions: well, it's a book, with both the Old and New Testament written by mere human men over long periods. However, the Catholic church is supposed to be organized around the teachings and personality of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. This New Testament, is supposed by Christians to be the most recent "good word" from God to Man, and to supplant, replace and update the Old Testament, and to reflect His all-encompassing compassion and Love.. As many people have pointed out, He is not recorded to have said anything about homosexuality. Do you think He left out of the new Gospel a condemnation of homosexuality by mistake?

I support any one who challenges so-called "spiritual authority" based on second-hand, incomplete, and biased information, in no matter what "Book" it is written.

Go Gnostics!

this has GOT to be the best comment of the day, hands down!

Actually you are mixing politics with religion. I thought liberals like you like to keep those things separate?

Truth is, most Catholics vote DEMOCRAT, not Republican. So much for your analogies.

@ Unhappy-1583758

Right...
Because Democrats keep proposing bills to limit women's rights, homosexual and contraception.
Oh, never mind, those are what Catholic like to do and guess which party is doing that instead of "JOBS, JOBS AND MORE JOBS".

this is about faith not something you discuss at a club or social gathering.the bible clearly says that marriage is between a man and a woman.just because some people don't agree with it is no cause to change the teachings of your faith.thats why its called faith.either you believe it or you dont.the majority of the citizens of the usa dont consider themselves marxists but because stupid people with money can buy tv,radio and make their presence known a lot of people think liberalism,progressiveism or marxism is ok.its not,the nice people that have followed obama and his marxists ideas have also gotten control of the nuns society.why would a nun want to argue with the vatican?catholic priests are not a bunch of old men.99 % are caring loving men that want to further christianity not tear it down.the sisters should be ashamed of themselves.when people become catholics they know what the teachings are,so just because you dont like the rules you want to change the game.grow up.if you quit anything because you dont like a particular thing then you will always be a quitter.sisters if you have nothing to do but become involved in politics then you are ignoring why you became a nun in the first place.dont listen to outside forces that are taking you down the wrong path.

a protestant

.

The Roman Catholic Church is a political organization. Its Pope is the leader of that foreign country. The churches are the equivalent of consulates, throughout the world, recognized almost universally as a location where a person in trouble can seek sanctuary from oppression.

This is also the reason that the sexual abuses of the priests for many centuries went unreported. The priests were, effectively, treated as though they were foreign diplomats, above the law. It is only recently that the secular and religious aspects of the Roman Catholic Church have truly been separated.

Where I live Catholicism is big business and big politics. In the area where I live the Catholic Church owns the health care industry. The hospitals in a 50 mile radius are Catholic. All the local doctors are being recruited to belong to the Catholic Church medical groups. My doctor is not a practicing Catholic, when I asked him about why he joined he said it made more financial sense to join them as opposed to maintaining his private practice. Now when I call for an appointment they try to put me with whoever in the group they want. Trying to get a second opinion is a laugh unless you want to go to another state. I just wonder how much of the nice new Catholic Church buildings I am paying for through my medical bills? The only true asset from the Catholic Church I can see are the nuns who work and run a nearby orphanage. Oh and I think it is funny how the medical charges are priced exactly at the maximum my insurance provider allows?

tmac-425222

"Nobody expects the Inquisition!"

There in lays the problem......Nobody expects. But the Church will not be happy until the "burning Time" is returned. Nothing like a community gathering in town square for a good old fashioned witch "anti-christian" burning. Remember, back in the burning time, you were guilty until proven guilty. To prove you guilty, the most inhumane tortures were used to extract "The Confession." To confess, meant a quicker death, no confession, more torture, then you got slow roasted, with a crowd cheering every agonizing sound coming from you with a "divine" blood-lust. Spread the Love...yup yup

Much Love,

Da (Pagan) Pup

>:o):

I do believe the church misses the good ol' days.

"the old white men in scarlet robes are in it for themselves"

And the altar boys, don't go forgetting those altar boys.

yah, don't forget the altar boys..........prey for the pedophile priests who are never punished by the popie.

If its God's work, lets see him do it himself. If God is all powerful, why does he need so much help?

"If God is all powerful, why does he need so much help?"

I assume god miscalculated the explosion in the population. His calculator must have been broken when he guesstimated what the population would be in order for him to over see everyone. I guess god only accounted for several thousand people not several billion people.

The Nuns do God's work

The nuns do something more important--they do humanitarian work. They help people. They don't sit on thrones and dictate all the while making up rules to suit their greed.

mj-1451595

It is not necessary to serve a religion to help humanity.

Secular Humanism and Unitarianism are both faiths who serve humanity more than some bureaucracy.

Atheists can also contribute to suitable charities.

It is the believers in god who finance international organized crime syndicates dedicated to fondling children.

I agree with you almost entirely, except one thing. There really are monks and priest out there doing real, good work. There are monastaries, in the US, that are dedicated to helping people not dictating to them.

In general I think you have it right. The V is as far removed from Heaven as it is from Earth.

How dare they be concerned with the poor and the sick?

"How dare they be concerned with the poor and the sick?"

• Exactly -- they're actually doing the work of Christ. But in the minds of the old men in Rome the nuns need to scream, yell and carry on about gay marriage rather than tending to the sick and poor.

It is really just too ironic anyone in the Vatican would carry on about homesexuality. Really. Until recently it was quite acceptable because sex with a man wasn't breaking chastity from women. On the same note, sex with a woman used to be acceptable by priest - even Popes - as long as they didn't live together or marry.

Religious evolution? And people think the Vatican is out of touch with reality. Church doctrine cannot evolve, if it does, then it is no longer the direct word of God, but someone's interpretation. Its the trap religion will always find itself in. By its very nature, it cannot change, because change, no matter how well intentioned, is in defiance of the deity.

They're stuck in a logical trap.

Wow pained, I actually agree with you for once (except for the being torn part).

The church doesnt believe in evolution. Havent you been getting the memos?

@ James

Fascinating! (said Spock...)

"I hope the church evolves"

It already did evolve, it's called islam.

I hope the church evolves.I am torn

I hope the church implodes. I am not torn

James the Church has changed it's doctrines MANY times of the years. They have even changed what is in the Catholic bible. Recently they suddenly said there is no more Limbo, which was taught to every Catholic as exsisting for the past 2000 years. They change whatever they want to change, not to evolve with current times but to reposition thier power and control...

JamesBuchanan

Religious evolution? And people think the Vatican is out of touch with reality. Church doctrine cannot evolve, if it does, then it is no longer the direct word of God, but someone's interpretation

They have already strayed from the word of God by excluding so much of the original teachings and the destroyed volumes of text all excluded from the St. James bible. so SucR-it

JamesBuchanan said;

Church doctrine cannot evolve, if it does, then it is no longer the direct word of God, but someone's interpretation.

But it has evolved already. No longer are you sinning because you eat shellfish or wear clothes made from two different fibers or grow two different crops on the same field; no longer is it ok by church doctrine to sell your daughter into slavery or to stone your wife for adultery.

Various biblical figures 'lay with their handmaidens' in order to get a child because their wives couldn't bear--in the old testament. The New Testament 'evolved' that and said "oops, nope, sorry, can't do that anymore."

It used to be forbidden in the church to divorce--now it happens all the time.

Seriously. Church doctrine has already evolved.

Not to mention which, the Bible itself was originally a collection of over 8000scrolls that a group of Christian elders got together some time ago and picked out the ones they liked, then put the rest away (The Council of Nicaea.) the ones they didn't like were locked away in the Vatican and labeled 'The forbidden Books' and no one has seen them. I grew up in private/Catholic school--never saw the books of Ruth and Esther until I picked up a different translation some years later.

My point? The whole of church doctrine today is 'someone's interpretation'. Religion is man's interpretation. The Bible was written by man, not God.

The only true faith is the one you have in your heart.

JamesBuchanan is seriously out of touch with reality. You can only call the Bible the "direct word of God" if you personally saw God write or dictate it, and if you discount the centuries or translation/interpretation and re-writing it took at the hands of mere mortals, to suit their own interests and propaganda.

I love that the Church objects the nuns' "radical feminist" ideas. I wonder what they consider to be "radical." Are they saying women don't deserve the same freedoms as everyone else because Christ doesn't love them as much? Sexist pigs. Maybe they should concern themselves more with all the male priests out there sexually abusing little kids and/or covering up someone else's abuse. I don't go to church and my small toe is more Christian than these awful self-righteous people.

unless you can show me the words burning in air. it is all someones translation.

These Nuns are helping those who need it most.. When they became Nuns that what they wanted to do,now that the Pope and his Counsel don't like it they should stop. I'm supporting the Nuns.. Pope it's 2012 get with the program!

Meeche-942560

These nuns are causing a scandal in the church by their disobedience - they took an oath of obedience when they became nuns and now they have become too worldly to obey it - Time for you nuns to pack your bags and leave - the church doesn't need people like you who are getting a free ride all your lives. If you don't like the rules - get out! They want to be in the spotlight of bashing the church rather than standing up for the principals of the church which they believed it when they became nuns - That's the problem with todays people - they always think it's rosier on the other side - so - nuns - go see the other side from outside the convent walls and stop criticizing the Pope - God expects more from you than that and when you face God on judgement day - you will be asked why you chose this path of disobedience.

Pile up that fire wood.......anybody got a match??

Lunarpup,

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or are insane.

I pray it is sarcasm, but it is hard to tell. It's that last line that has me uncertain. Prior to that I just thought, okay, another far out remark.

Hi Richie, I was being quite sarcastic, and yes, I'm a bit insane.....but what do you expect from a purrring puppy? hehe

The thing is, being a pagan pup, there would be a stake with my name on it. Personally, I really dislike the smell of burning fur, especially if it's mine.

Much Love n Peaceful Blessings,

Da Pup

>:o): PuRrRrRrrRrrr

Ohhh, and I hit the wrong reply button when replying to Meeche...My Bad

Except the property that all these nuns have belongs to the church not themselves. Their board forms a separate organization then they can't claim to be Catholic and they will forfeit most of their assets.

Without the church turning women toward them, they won't last a generation.

My guess? That the nuns could set up their own schools/businesses without the church and make a mint. And that money would be lost for the church!

Catholics: with respect to you and your beliefs: leave the Catholic Church. Donate those beautiful buildings as museums or for the use of the communities in which they reside. The Catholic Church has become a haven for pedophiles to the extent that it will never recover its reputation as anything but Pedophile International. Cut to the end and make it extinct this year, rather than inevitably, 50 years from now. One child abused? May be an aberration, 10 abused children, it's an epidemic. But 1,000 abused children with the church habitually relocating the guilty so that they have new victims to abuse? It is institutionalized abuse. This makes the Penn State football team look like a good place for your children, in comparison.

I know it is your heritage, I know it is the way you were brought up, where you were married and that YOU are not a pedophile. All that doesn't matter, now. Now it all boils down to this: shame on you if you still bow down to this church on Sunday. How can you possibly justify raising your children as part of Pedophile International?

GASP... But the pope is God's right hand man. Bow down and kiss the ring. LOL

Who needs God's approval to do good things?

"?Excellent post! Didn't Jesus say something about "By their acts you will know them?" Evaluate the actions of the Catholic Church's hierarchy with that of the nuns and draw your own conclusions of who's a real Christian.

No. No dialogue with people who hand me a list of do's and dont's. Been there. Done that. It's called domination and control The American Catholic Church is losing members every minute. I know it's not a popularity contest or a democracy, but when you have NO members left, isn't it obvious something is wrong? The Church is against birth control? Why? Where does it say that in the Bible. Go forth and multiply? To me, it means go learn the multiplication tables because math and science bring us wondertul things like modern medicine, the internet, cars, electricity. television. Or is it literal? Like juas have kids even if you really are not meant to be a parent, or even if some of these kids are abused, or homeless, or remain unadopted in some sequence of foster or group homes? Or maybe there are too many people in the world fighing over the same water, food, or natural resources. And divorce? Even if your husband weighs 300 lbs and won't take a shower? When did Jesue say that becasue I grew up in the church. I did go elsewhere. I still contribute to my local church becasue everyone needs spritiual guidance. But, I won't give a nickle to catholic missions or education. And I absolutley refuse to let the church tell me I have to vote against gay marriage BECASUE marriage is a CIVIL CONTRACT about proerty rights and partner priveleges, If the church has its own set of rules for marriage, fine, I can accept that. When it tells me to vote against gay marriange, well, then, it just turns me off and turns me away, I THOUGHT ALL PEOPLE WERE GOD'S CHILDREN but now, they are telling me, YES.....EXCEPT...

cme, absolutely right, I'm gone and so is my money. I'm tired of still living in Augustine's time warp, I don't think the Christ would be real happy with the Church today, his message is lost to rituals and power. Control seems to be the optimum word for the Vatican.

cm, dialogue on whose terms, debate with the Church I don't think so they won't allow it or change, right at all costs. Their way or eternal damnation. Bah Humbug, my money and myself are still gone.

Only another 140 years until the Age of Aquarius then we get a new Lord. ;)

" If you are at odds with Church teaching, you need to go elsewhere."

The unfortunate thing is, I am elsewhere, but the church wont go their separate way.

WOW! The comments of some people reveal a lot of hostility towards the Church's leadership. The language used to characterize the Church hierarchy clearly indicates these folks have no interest in a dialogue on matters at issue. The nuns clearly have a voice; it's just that what they're saying doesn't jibe with Church teachings. If you are at odds with Church teaching, you need to go elsewhere.

Well, I'm an atheist so I don't have a dog in this hunt, but you don't have to be Einstein to see the way organized religion denigrates women in a way that if they did it to a person of colour or a disabled person would find them in a lawsuit they couldn't win. Further you don't have to be a genius to see the Roman Catholic Church more than most others is set up as a money making machine that supports it's own doctrine through circular logic and an "old boy network" that turns a blind eye to what should be some pretty heinous sins.

The nuns have the right idea. I'd bet if they split off in the US and started their own church it would only be a matter of decades before the Roman Catholic Church became a vestigial appendage.

How about following the words of Jesus instead of the hierarchy B.S.

Or they at least need a Vatican III. Time to move beyond the 1960s.

But isn't the pope God in a robe, with a tall pointy hat and bling? Kiss the ring babe...

He's really a giant rabbit. South Park wouldnt lie.

Thats right, Peanut. I forgot. Peter is a Rabbit. And the problem with pedo priests is that the boys tell what happened! We must stop the children from telling, then it wouldn't be a problem [sarcasm in case no one gets the SP reference]

I cant figure out why any woman would join ANY religion. They seem to get slapped down by all of them.

I bet those nuns would make GREAT Wiccans!

Really - and you call yourself a Christian? The Roman Catholic Church is way more orthodox and true to the traditional evangelical message then most Protestant denominations. While Protestant demoninations are full of liberal "Jesus was a good teacher, but not God" preachers, who are more than happy to say that the Bible is little more than good-intentioned fairy tale, and who are ready to excuse obvious sin, and ordain practicing homosexuals. Not that all Protestants are like this, but overall the Roman Catholic Church has remained faithful to Christ's message.

The Roman Catholic Church wouldn't recognize Jesus if he walked into the Vatican. The Church is a business and nothing more!

so david, babe, if the catholic church is so christ like, why is it still using the corrupt laws of man to hide it's child raping priest problem and why is it still hiding them?

but nice try satan

You know David you are homophobic little pedophille

Yeah, "when he arrives" SRBINAT, we'll be sorry then, whoever disagrees with you, right? Keep waiting. All our lives will be over quickly. Everybody comes to their own spiritual consciousness, alone, and everyone dies. Religions are all equal, Muslim = Christian = Atheist, all human beings (I have to say I never hear of Buddhist terrorists or bombing abortion clinics so maybe Buddhism IS slightly better as an organization, in general), we are equal in life and death. Religion is responsible for everything bad in this world. Crusade, inquisition, war, torture, it's easy to kill "others" because they're not even Christian (or they are heathen or they are Muslim), since god's on your side (every side says) your bullet will fly straight. If you're in love, you cannot marry that person--different religion! Religion blows monkey balls. You are "the other" to everyone except yourself. You are afraid of your own self.

I am a loving father. I would never burn my child in eternal hellfire, even if she killed Mankind. Is your god at least better than me? Or is He more petty, more hateful, more vengeful, more jealous, have more lust for the blood of the infidel? Not much of a god if He's not even better than me at loving his children, me, some schmoe off the street. I can't believe in something stupid like that. You must have an inherent need to bully others and to be bullied by a dumbass petty god to go for something like that.

Well, I love you, really as another human being, you are my equal. Bless you and best wishes.

I would like to point out that nuns become nuns voluntarily... My question is this: Why become a nun in the first place if you don't agree with Catholic teaching?
I'm glad the Catholic Church is 'cracking down.' If this small percentage of women don't agree with Church teaching, then they do not need to be part of the Church. But if they are interested in staying, they need to either buck up and get over it, or prove that the Church is wrong and maybe create change within the Church. But to be really honest, I think the Vatican is right.

For all the haters of the world: If you only know about the Catholic Church by what the media tells you, then you have no idea what it really is and you have no room to talk about it. Especially in such rude ways. I'm a Catholic, I'm a woman, and I'm definitely not oppressed. There may, at times, be corrupt people within the Church itself, but the Catholic Church itself isn't corrupt.

And I don't know what you people think about what the Church does, but the Church is dedicated to the same ministry that the nuns are. And each group within the Church does as much good as any other group (Popes, priests, deacons, nuns, monks, lay people, etc.). Catholic means "universal," and isn't made up of only those men who work in the Vatican. It's made up of the entire body of the Catholic Church, which includes these nuns. So if you're attacking the Church because of this whole ordeal, you're also attacking the other hard-working nuns who don't agree with this organization, which is most of them. TRUE nuns follow Catholic teachings and don't see a problem with it. As I said before, they volunteer to be a nun because they know how special and important that role is within the Church. If you don't like/agree with the Church, then don't be a nun. It's as simple as that.

Hilary you make a valid point but only for those who are willing to accept a fixed belief system that is incapable of changing with the society that it serves. I truly believe that many commenters here are also Catholics who are desirous of seeing their church as an institution survive into the next century and not just those who oppose Catholicism categorically. They know and realize that our present needs as a society have changed radically in just the last century and it is really necessary for not only the Catholic church but all religions in general to re-evaluate their positions on many subjects.

Many feel that Christianity is under some kind of attack because of all of the negativity that is directed toward it. The fact is that all organized religions are feeling the sting of social progress and change. People are far more educated and have access to far more information than ever before so they are much less likely to simply accept something because someone or some group tells them something is true. This is especially true of our youth today. They are much more attuned to their iPads than to their churches.

Far from being under any kind of attack these religious groups are simply dying from their own stagnation and failure to adapt to the needs of their constituents. I have read several studies showing that religious participation is declining world wide in most educated and industrialized societies. Attendance is said to be declining for most of them because they are so adamant about certain aspects such as birth control and abortion or gay relationships when many in their congregations actually feel less inclined to be so bigoted and unyielding.

Some try to imply that such progress is some kind of evil work of the Devil but it is important to remember that our human development and evolution (there is that nasty word again LOL) is actually a gift from our Master Creator which is designed to bring us closer to him/her/it. We are given intelligence in order to adapt to the needs of our environment and to try and learn to live together in peace and prosperity. Many hundreds of years ago when most of the religious tenets were put together the world was a much different place. We were underpopulated so it was desirable that we should populate indiscriminately but today we are approaching the limits of sustainability for our planet so our intellect should be telling us that we need to limit our population. Yet most religions continue to insist that we populate into poverty and starvation.

I sometimes like to think of the VA (Veteran's Administration) in connection with this concept. Many years ago as a Vietnam veteran I applied for membership but was declined because my duty assignments were all in non-combat positions. Over time most of the combat veterans began to pass away or drift away from their organization. Now, all of a sudden, they are sending me mailings trying to entice me to become a member and start paying dues. Surprise, surprise. When the situation changes so do the needs of the organization and they need members and money to continue to exist. And so do the many churches and religious organizations in our world today. Therefore they must either adapt or die it is as simple as that.

I have to agree. I would join as well.