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David Goldman / AP
Princess Wilson, center, joins a demonstration in support of U.S. Catholic nuns outside the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' biannual meeting on June 13, 2012, in Atlanta.
American nuns are gathering in St. Louis, Mo., this week for their organization's yearly national assembly, where they are expected to discuss the future of their relationship with the Vatican following scathing criticism of the nuns' alleged lack of fidelity to Catholic teachings.
This spring, after a three-year investigation, the Vatican's doctrinal watchdog issued a report questioning the organization's loyalty to some Church teachings, including the nuns' lack of outspokenness on issues such as gay marriage, abortion and contraception. Another concern voiced by the Vatican relates to conferences organized by the nuns featuring "a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith."
On April 18, the Vatican appointed Archbishop J. Peter Sartain of Seattle to oversee the nuns' organization and reform its programs to adhere more closely to "the teachings and discipline of the Church."
This week, the nuns will discuss a range of options for the future, from accepting the Vatican's mandate to starting a new organization independent of the church's control.
In an interview with NPR in July, Franciscan Sister Pat Farrell, president of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella organization representing about 80 percent of the nuns in the United States, said the organization is "not talking about the risk of excommunication or leaving the church."
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Sister Pat Farrell, president of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious.
"The one and only underlying option for us is to respond with integrity with however we proceed," Farrell added. "Some of the options would be to just comply with the mandate that's been given to us. Or to say we can't comply with this and see what the Vatican does with that. Or to remove ourselves and form a separate organization."
Earlier, in a June interview with the National Catholic Reporter, Farrell said the option to become an independent organization would stay on the table.
"Again, that’s something we can’t respond to without further consultation with our members," Farrell said. "But the option always is there."
On the question of submitting to the Vatican's appointed overseer, Farrell said: "Clearly this is an outside control. We would rather not have that."
In a statement released just after the Vatican report, the nuns said the report had "caused scandal and pain throughout the church community, and created greater polarization."
“Board members concluded that the assessment was based on unsubstantiated accusations and the result of a flawed process that lacked transparency,” the statement read.
American Catholics are showing their support for the nuns, organizing vigils across the country to advocate for the end of the crackdown. The Nun Justice Project is one organization standing with the nuns against what they call "a prime example of how the hierarchy in the Roman Catholic Church misuses its power to diminish the voice of women."
On Aug. 12, Nun Justice supporters are planning a flower march in support of the nuns in Seattle. According to a June 20 press release, "Catholics have already pledged over $61,000 at nunjustice.org to communities of women religious all over the U.S."
Nuns and their supporters have said that questioning the church's teaching is not the same as disobeying it.
US priests reportedly behind Vatican crackdown on nuns
It is possible that no decision will be reached by the end of the assembly, but private sessions will give leadership a sense of the "leaning" of the group, Farrell said.
The conference opens Tuesday evening and concludes Friday. Farrell is expected to speak at a press conference Friday afternoon.
Reuters contributed to this report.
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The Christ was a rebel and very disobedient, he changed the world. Resist Ladies, don't cave.
God does want us to be Christ-like. I couldn't think of a better way to do just that!
These are NOT nuns!!! They are women religious. There is a difference. You may not want to acknowledge that there is a difference because not doing so assists you in dumping on the Church. But there is a major difference between "women religious" and nuns. Why don't you just look it up in Wikipedia?
Firstly, if you engage in a discussion about Catholicism and you instantly revert to referencing the priest abuse scandal - you lose. It's akin to Godwin's Law, and it's just stupid. Surely you have more to say? Well, I'll listen if you're not idiotic.
Secondly, I'm sure the article's author didn't mean to, but I'm an American Catholic and I don't support the LCWR's position. If you are a Catholic organization, fidelity to the Magisterium should be required. Simple as that. Form your own organization that isn't canonically approved. Simple as that. Nothing stopping you. Bye. The Church will simply use the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religious for the purpose of communication with the Religious who actually care about being Catholic.
Still trying to silence anyone from mentioning priests raping children? You haven't learned a thing.
No, I think every person who harms a child deserves to fully punished in this life and the next. Any bishop who harbors such people should be as well. I just don't think that the vast majority of Catholics and priests who love Christ and are just as horrified as you are, and yet remain Catholic because they truly love Christ and trying their best to be faithful to Him - that they or what they say should be immediately tied to the sins of a very malicious few. Especially when the discussion is about something unrelated to the priest abuse scandal. See, I gave you the benefit of the doubt despite your ignorant comment. That's the last time.
Rusty,
The catholic church is guilty of institutionalized pedophilia. You cannot separate the church from their history. This discussion is absolutely related to the priest abuse scandal (when it occurs for over 2,000 years, it is more of a basic tenet than a scandal). This is about men controlling women. That's why religion was invented....by men.
It says a lot about you as a person, and your morals to defend an organization that has institutionalized pedophilia.
You might not want to take this approach Rusty. You might find yourself sitting on that throne alone in a very short period of time.
You're on the wrong end of the moral high ground on this one.
The Roman Catholic Church has always demanded obedience to its interpretation of God's Holy Word. People, open your Bible and let God speak directly to hour heart. You don't need another mortal, fallible human being telling you how to worship and obey HIM. The Pope and the priests are just like the rest of us...sinners in need of HIS redemption.
Robin, the Christs word, love one another, due unto the least of mine, turn the other cheek. What's so hard about that, interpret God's word who are you kidding, really, interpret delusional burners, condemners, old men in monasteries, old men in opulent surroundings, please.
So, the answer is a multitude of mortal, fallible, people interpreting God's word. It makes for quite a mess, let me tell you. Christ established His Church for a reason - to Guide and direct His people. That you divorce Christ from His Church shouldn't be surprising - people have tried to do that for centuries. They'd rather rely upon their own interpretation - interpretations, which, most of the time, unsurprisingly, make life much easier for themselves.
put your church between yourself and God if you want or can't find Him in your heart.
Jesus saved sinners without this church and still does.
These women glory in their works done in His name, no church given glory can compare to that.
The Church is His body. His Head. You want to decapitate Christ from His body. It's very sad.
Better yet, put your bible on the shelf with all the other fiction books, grow up, accept the reality of life and death, and be a human.
Your ignorance is showing, Corona. Try reading the Bible instead of bashing it as "fiction" - you just might learn something. Compare the historical events described in the Bible to the results of archaeology done in the Middle East over the past few decades.
That's what the Cathers felt, and that didn't end well for them.
Petercha,
I've read the bible.....and the koran. From the bible I learned how to pick the proper calf and prepare it for sacrifice. Real handy stuff. I learned that men lived to be 900 years old, stoning women and children is encouraged, and that men control everything (how convenient since i am a man!). The difference between you and me is that I didn't stop reading after I read the bible. I kept reading. You should try it. Yes, some of the events described in the bible match archaeologically. Others absolutely do not. To accept the bible (written by men, not women) as absolute truth is ignorant, disingenuous, and dangerous.
AMEN!!!!
Rusty, I'll stick with that Rebel the Christ, no more of the Augustine time warp, I don't see the Sisters living in opulence. The little ladies are too uppity for the Vatican's comfort, tough. I'm gone, not another dime in the ever present plate.
Not all religious belong to this organization. And not all that do belong support the actions of the leadership. It's a fact. Google it. That Rebel the Christ called His disciples. He gave them authority over the Church. And they in turn ordained men to continue to exercise this ministry to the Church. Either you believe in Christ and His Church (His Body) or you believe in a false Christ. That's fine, but please, let's be honest here.
If someone wants to be part of a church, or any organization for that matter, then one needs to either support that organization's goals, or stop making trouble and join a different organization that they can support (or form their own organization).
exactly and I think ALL women should take their children and run as fast as they can away from the Catholic church.
How dare they offer dissenting view! Onward! March! For the Fatherland!
They can dissent all they want to in their own organization, Hammers. No one will stop them. But for someone to join an organization with the intent of opposing that organization's goals is just plain wrong.
They are dissenting in their own organization. They have been catholics their whole life. You still have no concept of allowing someone to disagree on a few issues without kicking them to the curb. My way or the highway. Bah.
Petercha-
Dissenting and supporting individuals enable an organization to evolve in it's views.
The Catholic Church (I don't worship at a Catholic church, by the way, but I respect their views and their right to have those views, even if I don't agree with all of them) holds that their views are inspired by a perfect and holy God. That being the case, why should they change or "evolve"? I, for example, do not agree with the deification of, or praying to, Mary. So I simply found another church that believes as I do. I do not feel that I was "kicked to the curb" or any such nonsense. I didn't stay in the Catholic Church and cause a public ruckus. Such an approach only serves to offend people and accomplishes nothing except divisiveness and hatred. These "nuns" could have kept their statements within the church by privately writing to the pope or some such instead of going public and being a stumbling block to the faith of millions of Catholics.
Petercha, tell it to the boy scouts.
Sometimes, peanut, that's exactly who I feel I'm talking to - people not old enough to have any understanding. Sad.
Petercha,
Evolve or die. Everything evolves.....even religion. Remember Mithra?...Zeus?....
These nuns are not "divisive and hateful" they are addressing real world concerns. Since when is asking questions "dividing?"....oh that's right, when the oppressors demand unfailing, unflinching, unquestioning devotion.
And YOU complain about people without understanding!
Your blind devotion to ancient, misogynistic fairy tales is sad.
Corona, "evolve or die" - it's not an either/or type of thing. Again, why should anyone evolve away from what they believe to be the perfect teachings of God? And your hatred of Catholicism by calling it "fairy tales" is VERY offensive - and again, I don't even worship at a Catholic church! I respectfully disagree with some of their teachings, but I don't go out of my way to be offensive by calling them "fairy tales". Your hateful rant makes you sound like a liberal, maybe you should read "Liberalism is a Sin" by Fr. Salvany, sometime.
They will go the way of King Saul, to whom the Lord said: Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou has rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king." (1Sam15:23, King James Version). Or, if you prefer more modern language, "For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He has rejected you from being king." (New American Standard Bible). They all say the same on the subject. The spirit of the Lord left Saul and God would no longer speak to the man. Having rejected obedience, he sought out the witch of Endor through whom he received another rebuke, presumably from the deceased prophet Samuel. So it is with these. It is easy to see why there are so many trials in the Catholic Church with so many disobedient weaseling their way in among them. Eventually they will depart the path of salvation to their own ruin. This evil has been in the making for decades. As in the book of the prophet Hosea, in going after their lovers (who or whatever they may be, it is all symbolic of idolatry) they forgot the LORD. It is my prayer and hope that these will return to right reason, good intention and have the courage to do what is right. Otherwise, as they have in their hearts, they will spurn God and leave the Church from which alone comes their salvation. They have rejected, sadly, God.
Male chauvinist pigs in the Catholic church.
Enough of the bigotry please.
"leave the Church from which alone comes their salvation" - The Church DOES NOT give salvation.
gpink
You accusing someone else of bigotry is rich!
Correct Roadkill. The Church does not give salvation. Christ bestows salvation through Her. The Church, spouse of Christ does nothing without His Church and the Church nothing without her Divine Spouse, Jesus Christ. Those words come from the Patriarchs of the Church. But at the same time, since Christ has been called the head and the church His body, then one cannot act apart form the other. This too is from the divine bestowal of the Divine Nature upon the Church through the Holy Spirit.
Corona, I accuse no one of bigotry. I was accused of such and I responded as a mirror. Sigmund Freud came upon an interesting psychological phenomenon of how we deal with those matters we are either unwilling or unable to deal with in the immediate sense. He called them defense mechanisms. One is called projection whereby one projects upon the other, and it does not need to be overt but can be implied, that which is within us as though upon some convenient "screen". I simply applied the words of Christ as a reminder: "As you judge so shall you be judged". Calls for a bit of mercy in our human words, doesn't it?
Definitely, the Church, being united to Christ, upon Whom the sin of all humanity was projected is a nice convenient target for such.
gpink - Please quote Jesus about your platitudes.
Being Catholic? what the hell does that mean in a day when the Vatican hoards the worlds treasures for itself.....blesses poverty instead of helping it, excludes women in any way except as slaves.....and broodmares.....hides pedophiles (which btw goes back to the beginning of the church) exhorts members to give to the poor...by way of the pope for his cut of course.........you mean that Catholic.
What are you talking about? The Vatican is a few square blocks. Where have they stored all this supposed wealth? Do they have a hole in the ground stretching for miles? I am not so stupid as to think something that psychotic.
Millions go there without charge every year. There are over a billion Catholics living in our time alone who have pooled their riches to have a beautiful place to worship God and care for the needs of the less fortunate because together they can do better than alone. They give for others, for their children and for future generations.
Per capita, the wealth of the Catholic Church in natural terms is paltry. The wealth in the catholic Church is not in natural things though our human needs do and always will require them. Human beings are created in the image and likeness of God. The wealth of human beings all needing God's love and mercy is her treasure. She protects them by preserving the treasure of the faith. And if I read things right here, what is being rejected is not of a theological nature, but of a moral nature. The Catholic Church cannot and will not stand behind homosexuality (I make the distinction because of gross failure to distinguish between homosexual tendency and homosexuality), fornication and idolatry, adultery, mass hoarding of wealth, disobedience, lying, cheating, coveting, theft, or rebellion against God in any way. Her realm of authority is definitive and bottom line in matters of interpretation of doctrine and morals.
I assure you, those perverts who have weaseled their way in among the house of God were spoken of clearly in the ancient writings, most clearly in the writings of St. Peter and St. Paul.
gpink
Read a history book. The catholic church and pedophilia go hand in hand and have for millennia......since its inception. Read Sex Lives of the Popes. Nunneries were whore houses, monastaries were homosexual frat houses. Your defense of the church is truly sad.
Read the letters of St. Peter and Paul. They treat these things well, that depraved characters would worm their way in among the church making the way subject to contempt. It was inevitable. It is well known that anti-socials prey upon devout people. They absolutely delight in it to their own destruction.
Gpink....you need to do your research. The Vatican holds millions of dollars of antiquities, as well as fine art, jewels, etc. They are considered one of the richest "nations" in the world. They also have many old books, etc. that they've hidden away because a lot of them go against current teachings. It's interesting if you really go and research the Vatican thoroughly. You'd be surprised at how much wealth they've hoarded away. It's almost obscene!
As for the Catholic religion....I don't understand why anyone would be Catholic (even my husband left the Catholic church very early in life). As Christians, we're taught not to bow down to idols; yet, you see the Catholic people praying to the saints. We were taught also that you didn't need a "go-between" to pray for you (saint, Pope, or otherwise)...that every person has a direct line to God and can pray to him directly. Even my pastor says the same thing...the Father is available to all who need him. Having a go-between, like the Pope, is ridiculous and unnecessary. And, even the Christian church is relenting on women in the church. We now have Deacons in our church who are women...something we didn't have 10 years ago. The Christian church has evolved to some degree (although most of them are against homosexuality, gay marriage, etc.). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, hasn't gone anywhere for hundreds of years!
gpink... Wall Street is just a few blocks in size. I'm going for 305 million practicing adult Catholics worldwide, or slightly less than the population of the United States.
gpink -- Hello, modern finance calling -- It's called the Vatican Bank, and it's one of many that the Church uses to hold billions of $'s in cash, investments, etc. And btw, the Vatican (the Church) is right up there with the UK and Japan as one of the largest holders of real estate in the world.
Why do you write these silly things?
If the vatican had half the morals, integrity or intelligence as these women I might still be a catholic.
That's bull and you know it. If some of these Catholic dissenters would be honest with themselves, they'd stop trying to fool everyone and just leave the Church. Not all the Sisters are dissenters, and I feel bad that they're being lumped in together with those that are. This is why their organization needs the oversight being provided by the Vatican.
Oversight....by the Vatican! effing hilarious!
Did the jews get the benefit of "oversight" during WWII?
Do alter boys get the benefit of "oversight"?
Keep defending the indefensible.......
Unfortunately, Rusty, you are correct. Eventually they will leave as is written in the Scriptures. Sadly, their questions are needed. What is not needed is their rebellion. As St. John said, had they been of us, they never would have left us, saying in advance that they will if they keep to their current course. It breaks my heart, but it also says maybe there even need to be factions among the Church for the tried and true to shine forth. That is from the wisdom of one of the letters of St. Paul to the Corinthians. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote against the now dogma of the Immaculate Conception. His conclusion was wrong, but he brought up a point that needed to be better understood through avid discussion. Because he was not a rebel, we now call him "saint". The Church holds all deviants dear as they have been the seed of discussions that have led to the clarification of true doctrine, albeit in an indirect way.
I am Catholic of Jewish and Slavic descent. The Nazis and Soviets killed my ancestors on all three grounds Corona. The Church responded in many ways. My friend AnneM's father responded to the expulsion of Jews from Germany under the Third Reich by giving them land and helping them build homes. The gratitude of the Nazis when they showed up was to gather the townsfolk together and demand that they recant their Catholicism. When they did not, they killed first 25, then 50, then 75. My friend was among the third group, but still lives to tell of it. At the end of the war, the Soviets killed the second half. You do not hear these Catholic voices, including the parish priest because they are dead. Yet their voices speak louder than the thundering ow the mighty waves of the ocean. You do not hear a lot about what the Catholic Church did because there were so many martyrs silenced by the hatred of those who deviate from the truth.
The catholic church supported the Nazis. Your personal experiences don't change that fact.
Pope Pius XII, Hitler's Pope.
The catholic church celebrated Hitler's the very end. Catholic priests helped Nazis escape after the war.
Corona: Then, please explain to me why hundreds of Catholic Priests were sent to the camps; few surviving. Please explain to me why St. Maximilian Kolbe was starved to death in the camps. I mean, other than that he chose to take the place of a married man with children.
Man or woman,one of these days one of you church haters will say something-IN PERSON-we'll see how glib and rude you are
Good point, pained1.
Why would being in person make a difference? I would say it to anyone anytime anyplace.
Would you be as rude as these people are?They-would likely need tissues for a nose bleed.
Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
You mean you would attack me for not agreeing with you......how muslim.
Apparently dissent is punishable by violence. Well, that has been the church's MO for over 2,000 years.
So now you are threatening to punch us if we don't agree?
Some Christian you are.
I took pained1's original comment to mean that someone might someday say something nasty in person to God and be judged by God for it. But even if pained1 means that he (or she) would use violence (which I don't agree with, by the way), I DO agree with his (or her) point that we should show respect for the religions of others, even if we don't agree with them.
You ask me to respect religious beliefs that in turn do not respect humankind. We've been told for so long to respect religion. Those days are over. Religion must earn respect and it is doing avery poor job of doing that.
Sexual repression of sex is unnatural. I do not know the total number of priests/nuns etc…around the world but let us say they are 1 million needing to abide by the vows of chastity. Does the Church truly believe that all 10 million priests/nuns will abide by their vows? There is good chance that at least 1% (10,000) of them will look for some sexual outlet depending upon the opportunities available, making great fertile ground for gays/lesbians/pedophiles. Pretty high # in such institutions where the primary goal is to go for religious/spiritual activity. This particular homosexuality arising out of the sexual need is unnatural if you think about it. The worst is pedophiles. Instead of praying, these priests/nuns are preying.It is simply impossible to be celibate unless one is impotent. In the history of religion, I do not know if an impotent or sexually repressed person ever achieved enlightenment. same goes for spirituality."These days we give importance to quantity, we run around and bring people inside and with all other attractions, they are made into priests or sisters. What happens is that they find it difficult to live the life of chastity. Even all the other vows are difficult but in the 21st century, this has become a real trouble.Church is hoping for the impossible. Reforms are needed.
you know the only reason nuns and priests are celibate is because in the early 11th century someone in the Vatican realized if nuns and priests were not allowed to marry upon their death the church got all of their worldly goods.
It's nothing innate in the religion itself. It's just flat out greed by the church.
Prior to that time everyone was having a good old time. Not only did the Popes marry but they had mistresses galore.
Not sure I agree with that, mj-1451595. I always understood that policy to come from the verse 1st Corinthians 7:8 and other NT verses like it.
I completely agree - sexual repression is unnatural. Did you know that the Catholic Church represses sex even within a Catholic marriage?? My husband and I married in the Church 10 years ago. We had to take the classes they require to marry in the Church. One thing they taught us made every couple in the room look at each other and shake their heads......was that doing ANYTHING to enhance the pleasure of intercourse was a SIN. What?????? The only sinless purpose for intercourse, according to the Catholic Church, is procreation - making babies. Hogwash! That was the day that I lost faith in the Church.
My question has always been.....how can a married couple go to a priest for advice on marriage if the priest has no experience to fall back on? It's ridiculous! I believe that priests need to be married in order to give valid advice to married or soon-to-be-married couples. I could never take advice from someone who does not have experience to fall back on....it's just ludicrous.
On the same side of the coin....I would never go to a family therapist who was not married or had not been married.
The clueless and withered old men who claim to represent the church are nothing more, including the pope, than a gaggle of old bigoted men who want to run the church their way and not accept the advancement of ethics, morals and scruples of the rest of mankind.
These old used up bigots are so out of date with the rest of the world, in a couple of decades they will wither and fade away and more progressive people will be running this bigoted organization, hopefully with new progressive views that are more in touch with the rest of mankind and the evolving world.
These old dustballs need to be swept away as soon as possible.
I hope the nuns tell these old farts just where to stick it, after all, it is the nuns who do all of the good work for this old tyranical system. The prists and other bigoted men do absolutely nothing to advance the church or to benefit human kind.
Oh yah, they walk around in their golden robes and demand their feet be kissed.......the Catholic church is defunct.
Of course you all who have lived a couple decades have it all figured out-read history,process information
I think god might want to have a word or two with men who call themselves Pope and act like they are sitting on his right hand......yessir I do believe he might.
After 12 years of Nuns, I have the utmost respect for Sisters and what they do; and reading the article and the posts that followed, I am convinced that no one here could give me a coherent descriptionof what the issues are that are coming into question. Rather we have a group of people, who for their own reasons, have a hatred or strong dislike for Catholics and will vent their anger trying to ease their pain.
That said, there are many questions I have as to how this is being handled.
These nuns advocate for women.....which is a no no in the church. That is it.
Kathryn, I think you are trying to frame this to make your point, not what is at issue. It's just not as simple as you would like others to believe.
JRL: Then, can you explain it to those of us who are too dumb to know the truth? I'd honestly be interested in hearing the REAL reason behind these nuns having dissention among them against the Pope and the Vatican.
Catholics all over the US are rallying to support the Sisters. And the Sisters appreciate that support. But if the Vatican were to say to these supporters, "If you stick with the Sisters, you are excomunicated", watch how many will abandon the Sisters.
I think you wildly overestimate the influence of the Catholic Church in America these days. You might want to do a bit of reading on this topic. The Catholic Church is quite dismayed by what is happening the US.
It seems people take a dim view of their children being molested by their priest. Not only are the ranks of the nuns dwindling, so are the ranks of the Roman Catholics.
Jesus said to feed the hungry, heal the sick and clothe the naked.........not sit on untold riches and live like a king.
Kathryn, Its sound like you have had negative experiences with the Catholics. Tell all.
Not just catholics all religions.........when I WAS a Lutheran we were told to study all the religions in the world, in fact we had a class in it. what I read made me want to read more and after awhile I knew where my path lie ahd it was not in the church. I became what is known as a heretic , that is someone who dissents. They burned us at one time.
I was raised Catholic years ago, but saw that it was a religion centered around the priest as being some messenger from Christ. The sisters were the work horses as we saw them teaching, cleaning, cooking, etc. The priests rode around in fancy cars, given by parishsoners, and relaxing in their rectories while the nuns were their maids. I've seen priests screaming at nuns for something as simple as kids talking in class when "father" was lecturing them.
Really, the church and all big religions based on male-ownership should look into their own sins be it child sexual abuse, promiscuity or corruption. They look foolish walking around in their robes while the nuns are out on the streets truly helping others. More power to the sisters!
Just an alternative business model for long-term plungering. It competes with govt.
I think the good Nuns have seen what an uncontrolled birth rate does to women by keeping them down and in poverty trying to raise the kids. And the Catholic Church is the number one offender by not allowing birth control. They never put out of their pocket to help pay the bills. They always want their tithe. The Catholic Church has always thought birthcontrol was immoral. That is why I left the church. In fact, someone send my name to the Pope so he can excommunicate me. No skin off my nose. I have seen heaven and did not see any pope there. He thinks he is the representative of God on earth. I bet every pope who has met his maker is in shock when they find out they are no holier than anyone else. The Nuns are doing good work, leave them alone!
I recently read a series of articles in the LA Times about population. It says that the Catholic religion is SO much in power in the Philippines that even the Governor is afraid to go against them. There is so much over population in the Philippines because the Catholic church has banned birth control (except, of course, to those who can afford it), yet families with 6-8 children are starving and begging on the streets to support their children. Where is the Catholic Church for them? I don't see them doing anything for these poor people except keeping them down. As a note, my husband is from the Philippines....so I know of what I speak. The article was extremely enlightening to read and downright pitiful. I felt bad for these people who are unable to get birth control or any other assistance. They, and their children, face poverty head on.
I can't see any workaround to this fact: Christ appointed Peter as the first pope, giving him -- and his successors -- ultimate authority for what should be bound on earth. Christ obviously knew that humans would make mistakes (and there have been plenty in the Church), but even knowing that, he still assigned ultimate authority. I have great respect for the nuns, but at the end of the day, their perspective or interpretation is not the authoritative voice as assigned by Christ. So what is their objective? Is it to promote their interpretation or is it to promote the Pope's? i don't know that it's any more complex than that honestly.
So they had the authority to molest little boys and girls??? They have abused Jesus' authority.
C'mon, that's not a good faith argument. The abusers certainly should be punished in this life and certainly will in the next. But that doesn't negate that Jesus still assigned that authority even with this knowledge that specific individuals will fail. We still have free will and that messes us up from time to time, but if Jesus assigned that authority, it's reasonable to believe that He maintains overall control and redirects the Church according to His will, and not according to human misdeeds.
Bart, no reasonable person denies some of the bad things that have been done in the name of Christ, but would you, or anyone else, want to be judged only by your sins and not by the totality of your life? I for one hope that totality wins out, but I'm in no position to understand how God is going to judge
Well I could say an angel visited me and put women in charge......men being in charge is a matter of muscle, stature and violence.......nothing more.
You claim this as a FACT?
It's an opinion, and one supported by dubious sources.
Well, that's the Catholic perspective, which is relevent for this conversation because that certainly is the belief of the nuns.
Pittsburgh: Where does it say that God assigned authority to the Pope.....I've read quite a few books about religion, and I don't remember reading anything about that....maybe I missed it. The bible that I read says that you don't need an intermediary to meet and talk to God....all you have to do is believe and pray to him. You don't need to go through a Pope or a priest, or anyone for that matter, to talk to God. So, why would God have to give authority to a Pope? For what reason????
Didi, I'm not a biblical scholar, nor would I try to explain the wisdow behind why exactly Jesus did anything, including giving authority to Peter, the first Pope. His wisdom is not in my realm. However, I am knowledgable enough to know that this is core Catholic teaching, and key basis of the Faith. Either the nuns believe this (and therefore must adhere to the Vatican) or they do not (in which case they are already separated from the Church in practice). I've heard no nun dispute this. But I'm not trying to push any point, nor argue the merits of this belief among anyone else, because for the purpose of this conversation, THIS IS WHAT THE NUNS BELIEVE TO BE TRUE, and have given their lives to promote. And so, they must walk their talk so to speak. It is easy, it seems, to comingle issues, e.g., is it a woman versus man issue, faith versus society, etc., but at the end of the day, this is the only underlying issue.
FYI, the passage referred to by the Catholic Church, which the nuns have never disputed, is as follows: "[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. This is a POWERFUL POWERFUL POWERFUL statement.
There was a rebellion once. In Heaven. By the way the Nuns believe in Heaven so it does not matter in this context what anyone else believes it is about them. The one that led the rebellion was cast out. One of his names, among his many names is Satan. This is simply and blatantly a rebellion. Just telling it like it is. If they should continue on the current course it can only end one way. The question is NOT what we think...If they, the Nuns, defy the Church they have to LEAVE the Church. And being part of the Church is VERY important, if not everything to them. Only they can make that decision...it is really none of our business and most certainly none of the State's business. This is between them and God, which a lot of you do not believe in anyway, so why are you talking about it anyway. I think most of you libbers are going to be very disappointed in the way this turns out....God is more important to them than you or your politics. And since you do not believe in God how could you possibly understand these women who do...you can't. Try thinking about something instead of feeling about it. That is what grown ups do.
The Men of the church are drunk with power. THEY no longer follow Jesus' teachings. THEY are wrong and must be removed if the Church is to go on.
So tell me Bart, BTW you are proving my point about the secular world not being able to understand, what exactly IS The Church? Might want to be a little thoughtful there, I already know. One hint, the Catholics are only part of The Church. I am not a Catholic but I am a man and I am a member of The Church, and I am not drunk with anything especially power.
I agree with Bart, men have been on the rampage for eons and they made it "religious" to sanctity the violence.
Bob,
YOU are giving lessons in being a grow up?
Your belief system gives you the emotional age of a 6 year old. Wishful thinking, fairy tales. It is no accident that the church asks members to come to christ with the "faith of a child."
The secular world understands way more than you give them credit for. We understand the purpose behind all religions and have no more use for it. Evolve or die.
Kathryn you have lumped all men...by definition that is a bigot.
corona Death threat? That makes you neither evolved or mature.
By your own words you both have shown your bigoted hypocrisy. And I bet you accuse people of that every day. And the fact that you have no use for God shows you indeed have no understanding of Him, how could you? You keep proving my points for me. Thank you. Drive it home!
Follow Christ and not the Vatican deviants.
Who would Jesus chastise here?
The Pope is a joke. I have no respect for the Vatican what so ever. Go Nuns, go!!
The opulent and corrupt Vatican hierarchy tries to survive in the 21st century with a middle ages culture and attitude. It's time that the Catholic church join the 21st century or follow the dinosaurs into extinction.
These women of God are bring Christianity back to the Catholic Church. They are out helping people in need and raising up the downtrodden instead of crushing the spirit from gay people. I agree that the Vatican has a right to tell these women that they are not Catholic, but if it DOES it is only because they are too GOOD to be Catholic!
Sister Soldier !? March of the Penguins !? Nun-Sense !? Bad - Habits !? ..... I'm kidding, "GO Get'em Ladies". ...ok! one more........."Take no Perishon-ers!!!"