Perhaps Giffords' opinion in this matter will help death penalty advocates understand that not all victims seek revenge.

I would not expect anything other than this response from Giffords or Kelley. I do not see this as a statement about their feeling on the death penalty, but rather a move to avoid putting all of the victims and their families through the ordeal of a trial and the endless appeals that would likely follow a conviction and death sentence. Going along with this plea deal allows everyone affected by this tragedy some closure and makes it much easier for them to truly begin to heal and try and move on with their lives. Going along with this plea deal is definitely more about compassion for the victims and their families than anything else. I hate the idea of Loughner living out the rest of his life in prison at the taxpayer's expense, but it is probably a better option than the alternative.

Her opinion doesn't change a thing for anyone. Anyone who advocates for the death penalty does so on the basis that advocates don't want to pay to keep horrible people alive and comfortable for decades.

As long as his sentence is without possibility of parole. I don't want him released in 5 or 10 years because he has convinced people that he's safe. His mental illness can not be cured and he will always be a walking time bomb.

Non-first

So, if I understand you correctly, your support of the death penalty is based on economics. Hired killers work on the same rationale. What amount of money does it take, in your opinion, to make murder worthwhile?

Actually, life without parole is cheaper for the taxpayers than death sentence.

I hope the position of Kelly and Giffords will serve to demonstrate to those so filled with a need for revenge that seeking justice, and not vengence, is the way to find closure. Justice is for the victims, revenge is nothing more than a way for angry, intolerant people to feed their anger and intolerance.

I'm certain the other victims of this tragedy are dealing with it with as much grace and humanity as are the Kelly and Giffords. For those who were not victims, and continue to call for death and worse, justice is being served.

Non-first gen =(

advocates don't want to pay to keep horrible people alive and comfortable for decades.

Watch a little NatGeo or other shows on the reality of maximim security.

It's hardly comfortable and frequently is solitary 23 hours out of the day.

Just hope that Palin and Bachmann can keep their mouths shut so another one like this and Wisc killer don't hear the rtwinger dog whistle go off in their brains! Romney and dog whistlers for a worse tomorrow today!

OK Let him plea guilty and then put him to his death. This will not cost any more money. He has pleaded

guilty their is no appealling it. THAT'S IT!!! Now if the Judge said no to pleading guilty then throw the

judge in jail for being a a$$hole, his job is not telling someone how to plea! We all know he did it!!!

The cost to convict someone of the death penalty is so over whelming that a life plea is seen sometimes as the best option financially for cash strapped states and emotionally for the victims and their families.

I have issues with the way the death penalty is applied, especially when it falls upon racial lines, and in cases where you cannot prove beyond a 100% of a reasonable doubt the person actually committed the crime (i.e. they were caught in the act).

But in cases like this, the one recently in Colorado, and at the temple in Wisconsin where you know the person committed the crime there should be a trial to convict the person no option for life sentences, and a fast track to deny all appeals so that the death penalty may be applied as quickly and humanely as possible.

Why spend the money on keeping these people in prison when it could be used for other purposes.

In these cases I see execution as more a mercy killing as you would with a rabbid dog.

Alex G is correct; it is much cheaper to house someone for life than to put them on death row. The state is responsible for all their legal costs and death rtow security probably costs more than double what keeping an inmate in the general population does.

American by birth

Like Non-first generation you base your support of the death penalty on money, just as a killer for hire does. I appreciate that you understand that the death penalty is applied unjustly and that nearly 100% of executions are administered on the poor, especially when they are racial minorities. I also appreciate that you understand that innocent people are too often executed.

I think that you can also understand that as long as we have a death penalty, innocent people will be executed. Most of the time the juries are acting in good faith, but we also know that prejudiced juries, largely in the South, convicted innocent (mostly African American) people for capital crimes. The Scotsboro case is a well-known example.

Prosecutors sometimes falsify or withhold evidence in some cases, leading to wrongful convictions. John Grisham's non-fiction account of such a miscarriage of justice is "An Innocent Man."

The death penalty was overturned in Illinois mostly because of a large number of cases of coerced confession.

Most juries believe that the person that they convict on capital charges are guilty. Sometimes they are wrong.

As long as the death penalty exists, innocent citizens will be executed. If you are okay with that, then the death penalty is for you. I will continue to disagree.

I am a loyal American. Why is it that so many of the people with whom I disagree have such patriotic-sounding screen names (American by Birth, Non-first gen)

Always the lady Gabby! Bravo that you and the others take comfort in this criminal not spending another day in the outside world.

If you take a life yours will be demanded of you. I feel we need to execute this man to protect society. We need a fast track way to do this in cases like this where it is obvious the individual is guilty. The economics of a life sentence are an issue, but the larger issue is God's lawdemands capital punishment. In reply to the comment about at what price makes murder OK. Capital punishment is not murder, murder is taking INNOCENT life, and this man is far from innocent.

Society is being protected. He will be in prison for the remainder of his life.

You always speak of stating facts DOC. You might want to practice what you preach.

Of the 3,320 convicted murderers on Death Row as of January 1, 2005:

4.9% were incarcerated or had escaped from incarceration.

Life without parole doesn't guarantee that criminals will be behind bars...

Sources:

Capital Punishment 2005
Department of Justice
Bureau of Justice Statistics

Death Row U.S.A., Winter 2007
NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund
97 Hudson Street, 16th Floor
New York, N.Y. 10013
(212) 219-1900
Death Row, U.S.A.

Death Penalty Information Center
1320 18th Street NW, 5th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20036
(202) 293-6970

Screwing the taxpayers for the next 20-30 years is the best option? I don't think so. We have already wasted too much money on that thing. Put it in a hole and cover it up.

Many things can and are said of this terrible human. We are a humane society but why in the hell should this guy get 3 or 4 days with his parents in AZ before being sent to a mental hospital? Do the dead victims get any more time with their parents or family members? I say f*#& this guy! Send him to the hole immediately. No family time for him!

This is fantastic news. Loughner will be allowed to enter his guilty plea shortly and this whole ordeal will finally be over. Loughner will be in prison for life and the victims and their families will finally be able to start to put this behind them and really begin the healing process. I am glad that the judge did not derail this plea agreement by finding Loughner unfit.

Dave25906 . . . if Gods' law demands he be put to death . . . then let God kill him . . . not the State of Arizona . . .

To those who are so worried about cost: how much money would it cost for a death penalty trial? Don't forget that you would be dealing with the schizophrenia and possible jury sympathy in trying to get the death penalty. This outcome saves whatever money that might cost-and I can tell you it would not be cheap. To those who compare Loughner to a rabid dog, he's not a dog. He's a human being. Whether you agree or not, humans have rights that dogs do not in this country. (And don't come down on me for that-I love dogs.)

Don't try to nail me down re my leanings about the death penalty because I'm not sure where I stand. However, in this case, this outcome seems best for all concerned-and hopefully most of you are concerned more about the victims than about your own sense of vigilante justice or even the tiny bit of your taxpayer dollars that will be spent. (Does ANYONE in this country think more about compassion than about a few pennies in taxes from their wallets anymore?) I don't think Loughner is going to have a comfortable life in any case. Being schizophrenic is no picnic even if you aren't in maximum security for life after having committed mass murder. I'm not at all saying he shouldn't be punished-of course he must pay the penalty for his horrific crimes. I'm just saying that he is going to be punished. It just seems like people think it's too easy if the killer actually accepts his punishment by pleading guilty and actually accepting a full life sentence, like he should be made to suffer more, like he must have torture and death in addition to his life sentence.

And, God forbid anyone should have to pay for anything! I am sick to death of so many of you guys who think of nothing but how much everything is going to cost! I myself am very much aware of the growing deficit and all of that, but all I hear is how your own personal wallets will be affected if anything happens to help anyone, even victims of this horrible shooting. Do you even care what is best for anyone or this country? Sorry about the rant. I'm just getting really fed up. And I'm not liberal.

Loughner agrees to plead guilty to Tucson shootings

Well...huh?

The crazy bastard must have had a miraculous recovery!

I would bet the farm that if he found out they were going to fry his ass that he would have had a mental "setback." They wave Life in Prison in front of the dizzy bastard and he makes a full recovery. I hope his new 'friends' in prison stomp him into the concrete basketball court.

Remember......He's just another mindless child killer and his new friends don't like anyone who does anything to kids. The red haired moron in Colorado will have new friends waiting for that child killer too.

Stay tuned.......................

A year on antipsychotic medication, in the care of a state mental hospital is hardly a "miraculous recovery".

It's the typical recovery of a person with schizophrenia, once they start receiving treatment.

I'm not thrilled with this plea, since it is clear he was NOT competent at the time of the shootings. I don't know what Arizona's definition of legal insanity is (which is not the same as clinical sanity in any jurisdiction), and trial is always unpredictable, but a not guilty by reason of insanity, or else guilty but insane, would have made more sense to me. I expect he will be kept in a special unit, and his life will not be much different than if he had been found not guilty due to insanity (which would have resulted in civil commitment anyway, given the fact that he had to be forced to take medication). It is not unfeasible that one day there will be a cure for schizophrenia. The reality is that some mental illnesses are devastating. I would expect he will be housed in a special unit and I would hope that--without pending criminal proceedings--he will receive relatively decent care. Trouble is, quite possibly he will no longer be subject to enforced medication and will deteriorate badly.

Waldo, this was not a "miraculous recovery", he merely attained the minimum level of competence to participate in criminal proceedings. But one does not often see miraculous recoveries from ignorance either.

What if. . . a person was driving when he had a seizure, having never had a seizure before (e.g. a brain tumor that has previously gone undetected) and plows into a crowd of people, killing several? What kind of culpability would such a person have? Would we want to lock them up and throw away the key, or--better yet, according to some opinions--given them "the needle" asap? What if they had previously had seizures but no clear awareness of the fact? What if they had had seizures and ignored them? What if they had had seizures, had been diagnosed, had lost their drivers license as a result, and still drove? Can anyone conceive that there is (at least) a continuum of responsibility?

The only plus is that this will avoid a long drawn out trial and maybe give some sliver of closure for the victims and their families. That being said this POS should've been shot long ago, as in at the scene of the crime or shortly after the charges were filed. When its clear cut like this case was (he did it and acted alone, 100% certain), mental problem or not, there is no cure and a fast track death penalty, no appeals, is the best option. Saves the taxpayers $$ and allows everyone to start the process of moving on that much quicker. This is the type of person the death penalty was meant for. Maybe someday we will be in a place where we don't need it but that day is not today. Anyways hope he makes some new "friends" and at least the inside system doles out some proper punishment while we give him 3 hots and a cot.

To all those affected by this monster I give you my best wishes, hope for continued healing, and that someday you can put this all behind you and it be nothing more than a bad dream, as much as possible.

SR - you make some good points and I do applaud your effort to be humane in this but I think it wise not to let that blind one either. When I say death penalty as much as a side of me says make him suffer I do agree that is not the right thing and a quick clean kill is what he deserves, whether a bullet to back of head or a needle full of drugs. As for your examples it would all depend on if there was intent or known personal responsibility at the time.

It is time

Jb, your absolutely right. This is about crime and punishment. There is no real deterrent to crime. I agree he’s a confessed and soon to be convicted murder, hang him in public to show there are consequences to crime.

Hey patrick1315...then let your god pay for his incarceration!

I'm thinking, long drop, short rope, end of issue!

I kinda wish NBC would take down his picture from their front page today. His Michelle-Bachmann-bat$#it-crazy-eyes are givin' me the creeps!

Good wishes and good health to you, Congresswoman Giffords, and the rest of those recovering from this incident.

Glad you said it Sully, was thinking the same thing. Is creepy, take the pic down.

Mental illness is a sad thing. Some people just don't understand that the brain can get really out of whack if the chemical balance is wrong. They took their time and brought this guy back to reality, so of course he pleads guilty. But isn't that what the insanity plea should be for? For guys like this who become so disconnected from reality that they no longer know what they are doing? I don't know, but this outcome seems to work for most people, and at this point, he will have to deal with it for the rest of his life.

OK Let him plea guilty and then put him to his death

Only, they can't. This is a plea DEAL. He only agreed to plead guilty in exchange for taking the death penalty off the table. If the judge would not agree to that, he could have insisted onl going to trial. This would have been expensive, and he could have pled not guilty by reason of mental defect. And, this plea was a sure thing. A trial isn't.

And for the person who said they hope he isn't out in 10 years, the sentence is life without parole. They could claim he is sane, kind, letting him out would cure all the problems in the world, and he still would stay behind bars.

I am pro death penalty; however I believe this is the best outcome here.

I guess this is an example of a good reason to keep the death penalty. If the worst he was going to face was life in prison then he would have fought it. Let everyone who wants to plea guilty in exchange for life imprisonment do so. We spend too much money trying to defend a death penalty, but pleas like this wouldn't have been possible in the absence of the death penalty. If someone is truly innocent then they would fight a life sentence just as much as they would a death penalty. A guilty person wouldn't be as likely to do the same.

I like this " pay restitution of up to $19 million, $1 million to each of the victims". Where does the judge think this nut is going to get the money?

Why do you all think this is cheaper than executing him?? Our military have excellent shooting abilities, and a bullet must cost oh...say about 50 cents..give or take....let them have target practice and rid the world of this worthless POS. But all you bleading heart libs, think.." ITS A HUMAN LIFE"...So were the ones he killed in COLD blood...Enough said...If that were your family........I would try to see that he lived, so you could think about how much you cared for him. YOU LIBS ARE ALL IDIOTS!! Kinda like tree huggers..save the world

Mental illness in cases like this should be treated like rabies with an animal, put him down!

DudeFedUp . . . In the reality that is the United States of America today it costs far less to incarcerate him for life than to go through the additional judicial time and expense it would take to execute him . . .

Regardless of what fantasy world you may live in where the process is any different or more expedient than it is . . . I'm perfectly happy to have him locked away and forgotten about . . .

Now you can argue we should be more like North Korea, Iran or Somalia where death is swift and certain . . . it ain't gonna happen here anytime soon . . . and most likely never . . .

Loughner got just what he wanted 15 minutes of fame, does not have a care in the world the rest of his life, free meals, free medical, no real worries at all..... In the mean time he is another MURDER who got away with it..... Capital Punishment does nothing unless it is Swift..... This just encourages the next SCUM BAG to do it.....

People advocating for the death penalty should try it for themselves.

So John in Battle Creek:

Would you feel the same way if he killed your little girl or your only son? Or wife...maybe your mother?

I say one bullet between his eyes will wipe that smirk off his face.

Conway, I agree whole heartedly.

He pleads guilty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gee what a surprise. It's stories like this that make me believe that our justice system absolutely sucks. This animal destroyed so many lives that day and he still hasn't paid for his crime...........sickening. He should ether be dead by now or in the deepest darkest hole we can find. I'm disgusted by people saying "the poor guy is sick", of course he's sick but that's no excuse; he should pay the ultimate price for what he did................ Has everyone forgotten about the little girl he murdered that day.

For all of you "psychiatric" experts on the blog, the two child killers "who were awakened from their psychosis"....(miraculously) in MY opinion, WILL face the wrath of prison life as they should.

A surgeon once told me that Doctors are just like plumbers and carpenters and electricians and psychiatrists; There are really good ones, and then there are mediocre ones and then there are really crappy ones who shouldn't have licenses......None of you "experts" have examined the lunatics so I would expect that none of you know just what bounces around in the heads of child killers.

Loony or not, Loughner should be fried. The absence of knowing or feeling what "laughing Loughner" has accomplished is by no means an excuse as far as many of us are concerned. He knew how to dress himself that morning; load and transport his killing weapon while hiding his intentions (so why hide it if he didn't have the mental capacity??); sneak right up to the table those poor unsuspecting people (and child) were standing at; pull out the gun and start shooting with the intent to do WHAT???.........Deliver ice cream sandwiches with flying lead??

He WILL get his in prison if he ends up in the general population and seeing that now, he has been cured enough to vote himself a life term, there is absolutely no reason for him to be isolated.

Let the games begin for Mr. Loughner.......

boffer: The problem is that he hasn't been shot yet. And, under our system of justice we are going to spend millions of dollars on both sides of the case to see that his "rights" are enforced. There's a reason that police academies teach law enforcement officers to shoot to kill. If the guy is dead, there is no one to dispute what you say. Just a fact of life, unless you do it in front of a lot of people.

I do not advocate the death penalty, simply because it can be - and has been - applied unfairly at times.

But this man is now allowed to escape 'his own death penalty' by merely admitting his guilt.

There's something weird about that.

witchrunner . . . that is not why the police are taught to shoot to kill . . . shooting to kill is the best way to eliminate a threat not to bring about justice . . .

Easy solution with proof: he did the shooting, it is a fact. He did kill people, this too is a fact. He shot a congresswoman in the head, this is also a fact. Due to these facts and there are no other possible people in this scenario that could have been the shooter, then he should sit in the chair, strap in and get the juice. It would not cost more than life in prison, what costs so much is the appeal process and the stays of execution because the lawyers drag it out forever. The proof is there, strap him in and hit the switch. easy solution.

I am sure that there is an incinerator out there that would volunteer its time to burn this guy into ashes and send him to the hot place where he belongs.

It only costs more to put a person to death when the systems allows appeals for 14-20 years. And the govt. pays for the criminal's defense. If you don't allow the appeals, like in this case, it is far less expensive.

And where is he going to get the $19 million? That'll never happen, so why put it out there? We're still waiting for restitution on a theft charge from 8 years ago. Only saw a few bucks while the person was in prison, nothing since. These families will get about the same treatment.

Yes, the Death penalty should be very swift...when found Guilty prisoner should be taken into the next room and shot in the head with a 25 cent bullet. Our so called Justice system ...A Joke

The dont shoot him he is mental or the death penalty haters ...you make me want to puke!

Go hug your Cat...its equally worthless!

@TXHorseman

"I'm thinking, long drop, short rope, end of issue!"

Yes, simple and definitive, ...but can be sort of messy when the head pops off ( and that always seems to scare the little children ).

PS. By the way, is your avatar a photo of your mount? Gorgeous animal!

npeck, if cost is the issue you are most conerned about, you might want to do a bit of research to review the costs associated with a death sentence, the appeals, and the time the convicted individual normally spends in prison awaiting the outcome of the appellate process. Of course added to these costs are the fees and expenses of the attorneys and expert witnesses, all paid by the state, to adequately represent the convicted individual. In a nut shell, life without parole is less expensive than carrying our a death sentence. The downside to a life sentence, of course, is that the revenge factor shared by many, is not satisfied.

golly gosh, all those poor folks you are expected to feed, the poor babies you must buy milk for, insurance for those who just won't work and now you have to feed and shelter a killer.

what is a good Christian Republican to do.

(npeck).....You couldnt have said it better man. These ppl need to be made an example of. How can you go on a murderous rampage and in the process killing an innocent little girl and be allowed to live the rest of your days of your life (no matter how uncomfortable they are) while the victims are dead and gone.

Honestly, I could care less if you really are crazy, if you did it, you get the full punishment. Another loser the rest of us get to pay for /rollseyes

Crazy people don't kill to settle a score, or collect life insurance, or because they're jealous - they do it for reasons that make no sense. The truly insane deserve a little compassion, they're more like a mad dog than a serial killer. Calling Loughner a loser is more true than you know, and you should be glad if you or a family member never experiences that kind of loss. The Giffords get it, that's why they aren't disappointed with the sentence..

i really do not see any reason this POS should be alive.......this kind of crime should be handled like this....a fair trail.....no plea, and no appeal...............with the death sentence carried out immoderately.....this is complete BS that he gets to live and his victims are dead. who gives a ratts ass if he is insane? per say... he was sane enough to plan prepare and carry out premeditated murder, then he is sane enough to be put against a wall and shot. with all the weenies who want to get him some help, he really did not mean to do it people, and those who just cannot bear the thought of making him forfeit his life for those he took. then just keep expecting this to happen. really why not just put him down now.....no appeals.....why feed the f@#king lawyers? we do not need this POS on the planet, get rid of him to make room for someone who is an asset to society. this clown is done.

thats immediately.......sorry

Jail is not the correct place for the mentally deranged. They pose a threat to other inmates and do not get the care they need. This plea deal is a moral outrage.

the only care this pos needs is a bullet to the back of his head. hopefully another convict will get the chance to slit his throat someday soon. until then let him rot.

"Jail is not the correct place for the mentally deranged. They pose a threat to other inmates and do not get the care they need "

I cant believe i just heard that. Are u out of your mind! Who cares about this @!$%#s care or well being. He should be hung from the highest damn tree in the country. Revived. And be shot in the head. Thats the only care he needs

That's mighty Christian of you.

Not everyone in this country is a Christian cynic2012. But go ahead and push your beliefs on the rest of us smh

@ alumette- The reliability of the meds is not the issue. Loughner clearly was not taking medication for his schizophrenia, and had to be forced, against his will, to take medication for his mental disorder. The issue is really the end user. Do we force mentally ill people to take anti-psychotic medications in the interest of public safety or do we wait for something to happen, and have another massacre when another mentally ill person goes on a shooting rampage? I doubt in the current political climate that gun control will ever be seriously discussed, but maybe looking at taking a more active role in making sure the mentally ill have early diagnosis and treatment, and insisting on medication by court order be in place, to insure the individual's safety and public safety as well.

While I'm generally for helping the mentally deranged get better, if these kind of outbursts are your thing, you clearly need to be voted off the island. I don't care if the "miracles of modern science MIGHT make you better," once that Glock is cocked, you should be under a rock. I think administering the death penalty is bad for the soul of society: it's giving in to a darker side of us that only makes even darker things seem OK. However, I could care less if this piece of crap gets devoured by the other killers in the state pen' general population.

Do you get off torturing little animals?

If we're going to kill him, kill him. If we're going to incarcerate someone who is so obviously mentally INCOMPETENT, as a society we have an obligation to take care of him, not torture him to placate the bloodthirst of sick observers who are not a party to the situation.

Right. Not coddling mass murderers => you must get off torturing little animals. Now there's some sound inductive reasoning.

As long as there are billions of other people on this planet who did nothing wrong to get the crappy hand in life they were dealt, I'm going to have a hard time crying over whether this guy is getting kind, gentle care. That's a little different than a blood-thirsty lust for torture. Now calm down and take your meds.

"The degree of a nation’s civilization can be seen in the way it treats its prisoners." Fyodor Dostoyevsky. We used to claim a moral imperative over the Soviets on such grounds. No more.

Now go off and jerk off over some war porn, child.

you are so right. and their healing will begin much sooner than if they had a lengthy trial and a death sentence to follow. Gabby Giffords and her husband are real Americans and a class act.

How about the families of the victims that didnt survive. How would u like it if some piece of @!$%# shot one of your loved ones..your wife...your son..or your 6 year old daughter and was allowed to live. Then tell me how u would feel about the healing process being so much easier.

Stew- yes, it's so easy for people to talk about forgiveness, talk about how it's cheaper to house these idiots for life, talk about making a 'full recovery'... talk, talk. So easy to talk when they haven't actually been through such a loss. Just because 'Gabby' accepted the plea arrangement doesn't speak for everyone- especially the other victims who didn't get the same level of care and lifetime attention.

Thank you from seeing it from my point of view. Im not a vengeful person bt nature but when these psychos murder innocent men women abd children and pose with a smug smile on their face on their mug shot...words cant describe how mad that makes me feel

What healing are you talking about ? This monster looked into the eyes of a NINE YEAR OLD GIRL and shot her in the chest.

Now tell me how anyone can 'heal' from that insult.

Tell me how her Mom, her Dad and her brother will ever 'heal’ from that act of unthinkable perversion?

This monster should be taken to the Safeway lot, and shot using the weapon he used on those innocent people that tragic Saturday morning.

And he should be left in the Arizona sun for two hours after being shot before the scavengers take him away.

And the authorities should investigate why the Federal Judge John Roll was singled out by this monster.

Was this monster a tool of the CIA or other rump agency who was supplying him cash to buy weapons, ammo and food and cab fare?

This piss ant never had a job that paid the kind of money needed to buy the equipment or pay for the motel rooms he used.

The real target was Roll. Someday someone will get that through their head and find out that it was Roll who was the target.

The rest of the slaughter was purposeful redirection. (misdirection)

And today I am actually being charitable in case some of you 'bleeding hearts' think my plan is harsh.

Perhaps you could pray for the victims of this awful excuse for a person as well.

Better to pray for those still seeking revenge. They are the ones that need the prayers.

chirs150, maybe we should keep an eye out for you, as well.

marlane

I don't understand your statement. Why should we "keep an eye out" for chris150?

Chris - hard to live with mental illness? Maybe, but what is harder is to live with the aftermath of the voilence and needless senseless acts of brutality this scum commited. This man ruined countless people's lives and caused several emotional and physical damage that will take a lifetime to overcome not to mention some real victim's will not be able to overcome.

If you want to shed a tear or feel bad for someone do so for the real victim's.

i wish you could join him in prison and hold his hand and pray together dumb@ss

Uncle Henry

I feel sorry for your nieces and nephews. You have a real mean streak.

Pray in one hand - poop in the other. See which one gets full first.

DT

Very cute. You will learn even better jokes when you get to 8th grade.

I personally was hoping that he would get the justice he deserves which would be the death penalty. The insanity plea has made a farse of justice in the American courts. All this story proves is that I can kill 19 people, claim insanity, and live out my days in prison. If you think life in prison is justice, then let me remind you that he will be feed, clothed, and entertained at the expense of the state. Prison in America is better than freedom in some third world countries. Prison even for life is not justice for a crime of this magnitude. The man was mentally competent enough to plan, gather equipment, and execute his massacre; how can he possibly be mentally incompetent to stand trial for the death penalty? I thought the insanity plea was only for people who need someone else to change their diaper. The sick joke is that the legal system protects him from the just anger of his victims and their families. How is this justice?

Jon

It is justice, but it is not Old Testament revenge, which is what you want. Killing is wrong, whether the murder is committed by Loughner or by the government.

Protecting murderers from the just consequences of their actions is what is wrong, Don. Trying to refocus any debate with your little religious quip gives me a good idea of how you arrive at your irrational mindset. I guess you just stupidly assume that everyone who supports the just and rational use of the death penalty is a religious zealot. How about we not go down that rabbit trail for now. Please explain, why is killing a murder wrong? I am truly curious to hear your rationalization for this.

Jon

I could not care less whether you are religious or not. The fact is that you are hide-bound by the same medieval thinking as the religious zealots of that time period. The death penalty is wrong primarily because it is administered by human beings who often make mistakes. I grant you that there is no doubt that Loughner is guilty, but whenever any society has the death penalty as a possible punishments innocent people are put to death. Every jury except the very racist juries, which still exist in our culture, believes that they assign the death penalty only to guilty people, but false and coerced confessions, over-zealous prosecutors and other circumstances cause us to assign capital punishment to innocent people.

In addition, virtually all death penalties are assigned to poor people, mostly minorities, who cannot afford the type of defense who can argue their case effectively enough to avoid the death penalty.

The third reason, which I realize you do not accept is that killing is wrong. It is no less wrong just because the criminal killed first. When you assign the death penalty you are a killer, you are just not the first killer.

Life without the possibility of parole really IS a consequence - it's just not the consequence that will satisfy the most bloodthirsty in our midst.

I am not going to waste my time trying to argue with you about the innocence or guilt of everyone ever given the death penalty. I am talking about Jared Loughner. Why should he be allowed to live? There is no possibility of mistake in this case. He is guilty and both you and he admit to it. The difference between you and me is not that I have some secret barbaric lust for violence, but that I have a greater sense for the value of human life than you. You say that all life should be preserved at any cost and that taking away Loughner's freedom is punishment enough for his crime. You don't seem to think too much of the 6 lives that he ended if you think this punishment is fair. There is no restitution that can be made by Loughner that will make amends for his crimes. Even his death is not a fair bargain to the the victims and their families, but it is the highest price that he can pay - and he should pay it.

Okay, a lifetime spent with other males who have messed up and tend not to be the nicest of people, and being told what to do, and when to do it does not sound appealing to me, even less so with no chance of getting out. Death would seem favorable. Maybe it is just me. It's not like they give you your own TV in each cell, with a full size bed.

Jon

Obviously you feel very self-righteous, but to claim that you place more value on human life while advocating the death penalty is ludicrous. Maybe you, like Loughner, just believe you should be able to decide who lives and dies. Killing another person does not sanctify those six other lives. Killing another person does not bring them back to life.

As I said above, there is no doubt that Loughner is guilty and that if the death penalty is on the table he is a candidate. My point is that as long as we do have a death penalty other innocent people will be executed. The only way to avoid wrongful executions is to remove the death penalty altogether.

And, again, your statement about your "greater sense for the value of human life" is moronic. Mother Teresa stumping for the death penalty ... can you picture that?

I suspect the families of the victims and the survivors were contacted before this plea became public, and rightfully so, and asked how they would feel about this not going to trial.

Actually, victim impact statements affect the plea negotiation and sentencing.

Justice is sought for the victims. Her input, and the input of all the victims of this tragedy, indeed are important voices. The voices that are completely unimportant, are the ones belonging to the bystanders who have no stake in this decision, and who are, in their desire for revenge and death, no better than the perpetrator of this crime. In fact, they are even less so, because he has a debillitating illness that compelled him to act in the way he did. The vengeful have no excuse. They are simply hateful.

George-

Glad you weren't around at the sentencing for "my offender." The prosecutor didn't want to go to trial with a rock solid case and instead went for an easy plea deal. The defense and prosecutor asked for the minimum under the agreement. I spoke out as the victim. He got two more years than that only because I asked for it.

Who are you to say the victims shouldn't matter? Ever been one?

Thank you for your data, Mr. Roboto (george).

DOCJT,

...in their desire for revenge and death, no better than the perpetrator of this crime. In fact, they are even less so, because he has a debillitating illness that compelled him to act in the way he did. The vengeful have no excuse. They are simply hateful.

<sarcasm> Oh I see, he couldn't help himself from killing 6 innocent lives that never did anything to him. He is just a victim of his "debilitating illness". <end of sarcasm>

You know just for the record, my idea of a debilitating illness means that you have to have someone change your adult diaper for you. This guy understands exactly what he did and had the mental competence to plan and execute it. You have to have an unbelievably twisted mind to think that this guy shouldn't get the death penalty. It's not hate; it is justice.

Thank you Quiet One-2-3. So many of us have been indirectly affected as well...Rob Barber was my husband's former boss. We were actually in the Trauma unit when all the victims were brought in as my husband had just been hit by a car about 30 minutes before the shooting. We live close by the Greens as well as the Loughners.

We are all moving on and will be thankful the victims and families won't have to endure a trial as well if that's the decision they make today.

What healing are you talking about ? This monster looked into the eyes of a NINE YEAR OLD GIRL and shot her in the chest.

Now tell me how anyone can 'heal' from that insult.

Tell me how her Mom, her Dad and her brother will ever 'heal’ from that act of unthinkable perversion?

This monster should be taken to the Safeway lot, and shot using the weapon he used on those innocent people that tragic Saturday morning.

And he should be left in the Arizona sun for two hours after being shot before the scavengers take him away.

And the authorities should investigate why the Federal Judge John Roll was singled out by this monster.

Was this monstera tool of the CIA or other rump agency who was supplying him cash to buy weapons, ammo and food and cab fare.

This piss ant never had a job that paid the kind of money needed to buy the equipment or pay for the motel rooms he used.

The real target was Roll. Someday someone will get that through their head and find out that it was Roll who was the target.

The rest of the slaughter was purposeful redirection. (misdirection)

Shoot him w/o a trial? Living up to your name.

There is a little thing called due process of law. If you deny it to "obviously guilty" people, one day it might be denied to you, and you'll be put against the wall and shot. Think about it.

You can't protect rights of the innocent without protecting the rights of accused.

Justice is being served. Your need to exact revenge for a situation that does not affect you in any way is not justice. It is no more than a sick need to provide yourself with a false sense of superiority and mitigate your own fear of vulnerability. Seek therapy to deal with those issues. It is not the job of the criminal justice system to deal with your lack of humanity.

The victim is alright with the plea. You, having nothing to do with it, is not happy with it. That speaks volumes for the type of person you are.

there was more than one victim einstein. just because she was an elected official doesnt make her opinion any more valid than the other victims. how about the 6 victims that are taking dirt naps right now? at least your beloved politician is still alive.

But it would make much more economic sense to just shoot him rather than burdening the tax payers to have their money spent towards giving this person a certain quality of life.

No it wouldn't. It's much more expensive to impose capital punishment.

Do some research. FOX isn't always right.

Cost of adminsitering justice is not a primary concern. Nor should it be in a civilized society.

JesusLuv? Is that supposed to be an ironic screen name or is there a Who Would Jesus Shoot movement I missed?

Capecodmom - loved your post - every once in a while a hidden jewel like your post comes up in the midst of the clatter chatter. nice - very nice

Does he even have any family that would suffer a loss if he were shot?

Yes. It's in the article.

Do you really think Jesus would just shoot someone without a trial? I seriously doubt it. He even famously told his followers to pay taxes to Rome, to "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." (Matt. 22:21 KJV) Furthermore, do you think Jesus was primarily motivated by what would save the taxpayers money? I seriously doubt that also. Though the Bible has a great deal to say about money-Jesus himself had much to say about it-he actually said more along the lines of "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." (Luke 16:13 NIV 1984) or

Matthew 25:34-40
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I know the arguments about supposedly giving away other people's tax money and all that, but the people offering the arguments seem only interested in their own money being given away, while the "other" people who would have their money given away in taxes aren't the ones complaining about it. Sorry, I don't buy the arguement. It's your own money you don't want given away.

It is not being swept under the rug. Just because a just decision has been made that doesn't feed your need to hate and to judge in order to deal with your own paranoia and fear of vulnerability doesn't mean that a complete investigation has not been done, that anything is being swept under the rug, nor that justice has not been served.

Your need to hate is yours to deal with. You can choose to live your life in misery and fear, or you can seek therapy to discover why you have such hatred and and fear. The criminal justice system is not obligated to cater to your lack of humanity.

getmadstaymad -

you may have not been reading all the news on this the past 18 months, this plea deal is the best way to move forward. he will have no right to appeal, and this is basically done. blackops? really? you may be watching too much tv, or at least reading too many conspiracy therories. time to move forward.

What healing are you talking about ? This monster looked into the eyes of a NINE YEAR OLD GIRL and shot her in the chest.

Now tell me how anyone can 'heal' from that insult.

Tell me how her Mom, her Dad and her brother will ever 'heal’ from that act of unthinkable perversion?

This monster should be taken to the Safeway lot, and shot using the weapon he used on those innocent people that tragic Saturday morning.

And he should be left in the Arizona sun for two hours after being shot before the scavengers take him away.

And the authorities should investigate why the Federal Judge John Roll was singled out by this monster.

Was this monstera tool of the CIA or other rump agency who was supplying him cash to buy weapons, ammo and food and cab fare.

This piss ant never had a job that paid the kind of money needed to buy the equipment or pay for the motel rooms he used.

The real target was Roll. Someday someone will get that through their head and find out that it was Roll who was the target.

The rest of the slaughter was purposeful redirection. (misdirection)

, what's taking so long to euthanize this bottom feeder?

Due process, Bill of Rights, fair trial???

Because he is not a dog. He is a sick human being.

Oh you again... hello DOC

Due process, Bill of Rights, fair trial???

Yes I'm very well aware of our legal system. Make that our massive loophole wonder...

Yet another system that needs an overhaul. We are all innocent until proven guilty (or innocent) by trial of our peers only today, you are guilty via media, lawyers make bank while filing appeal after appeal as if it were an addiction, and we've turned half our nation into criminals with some of the most ridiculous, benign, ludicrous laws passed by some of the largest weakest links in our nation....

Borderlands, you may feel differently if you are ever falsely accused of a crime. Think about that.

Of course I would, thus the appeals process. Though I feel it's broken, it has indeed worked in favor for many who's sentences have been overturned due to new evidence.

However I formulate my opinions on a case by case bases. For one, no one is questioning whether or not it was Loughner, there's plethora of evidence and witnesses already. Just as in the recent case of the Aurora shooter... but none the less they have the right to due process.

Once convicted however, my opinion clearly states they deserve the same fate regardless what bleeding heart's feel about it. It has nothing to do with revenge and everything to do with ensuring they never walk our streets again. That, and making a bold statement. One of which ironically has been lost in the appeals process...

What healing are you talking about ? This monster looked into the eyes of a NINE YEAR OLD GIRL and shot her in the chest.

Now tell me how anyone can 'heal' from that insult.

Tell me how her Mom, her Dad and her brother will ever 'heal’ from that act of unthinkable perversion?

This monster should be taken to the Safeway lot, and shot using the weapon he used on those innocent people that tragic Saturday morning.

And he should be left in the Arizona sun for two hours after being shot before the scavengers take him away.

And the authorities should investigate why the Federal Judge John Roll was singled out by this monster.

Was this monstera tool of the CIA or other rump agency who was supplying him cash to buy weapons, ammo and food and cab fare.

This piss ant never had a job that paid the kind of money needed to buy the equipment or pay for the motel rooms he used.

The real target was Roll. Someday someone will get that through their head and find out that it was Roll who was the target.

The rest of the slaughter was purposeful redirection. (misdirection)

, what's taking so long to euthanize this bottom feeder?

Due process, Bill of Rights, fair trial???

Sorry. The criminal justice system is not obligated to cater to your lack of humanity. It is obligated to mete out justice.

You don't seem to be aware that it is MUCH more expensive to execute someone than it is to imprison them for life. Now you are. Please stop talking.

It costs nothing more than the price of a shank .

Quite obviously, you know virtually nothing about living with schizophrenia, nor with the emotional consequences of knowing that your illness compelled you to commit horrific acts. The very reason that so many with psychotic illness commit suicide is because dying is very often a better option to them than living with such a debillitating disorder.

However, living with stupidity and a complete lack of empathy appears to be quite easy and comfortable for many.

The same lack of empathy and stupidity that Loughner showed?

I would never want anyone tried and convicted in public, I support our due process like any other law abiding American. But the process is broken.

People like Loughner should be tried within weeks, not years. And once convicted people like Loughner should never be allowed among the populace ever again. There is literally no reasoning as to why anyone who committed such violence while ending the lives of innocent citizens (including young ones) shouldn't meet the same fate.

To believe otherwise only breeds more more people such as Loughner. If you disagree look around you, oh wait. I forgot, you live a sheltered life.

Loughner has a psychotic illness that explains his behavior and thought disturbances. Therein lies the difference.

How exactly, do you propose to try someone within weeks, when that individual cannot be brought to competence within weeks when suffering from a psychotic detachment from reality? It violates the very principles on which our justice system is founded.

If you wish to discuss criminal justice issues and the question of competence, Borderlands, I will be more than happy to do so. However, if you are here simply to play out some silly little childish grudge and exact revenge for getting spanked yesterday, then I have no interest in playing your silly childish games.

Spanked yesterday? Your delusional thought process never ceases to amaze me, maybe you should go back and re-read those posts. Just because you "think" so, doesn't make it true. You're the one that followed me posting a reply to my first post in here. That right there proves beyond reasonable doubt that you're the one looking to fulfill some sort of grudge.

But alas, as I've stated to others I enjoy my conversations with you. You entertain the very notion of why we have so many dysfunctions within our country.

What would you like to discuss on criminal justice? I'm assuming you're a professional in that field as well? You know far more than anyone else in here? Careful the words you choose next DOC, though my family may be Military, we have several on law enforcement. Heck I could be one of them but alas according to your world where you've never met violence, that simply wouldn't fit into your profile about me because it wouldn't suit your agenda.

I'm surprised this case didn't end up like John Hinckley Jr.'s (attempted assassination of Reagan) trial. Not guilty for reason of insanity.

This monster was 'defended' by a female attorney whose only claim to legal fame is that she gets her clients off of the death sentence.

In this case she did her job and lived up to her reputation.

How she will be able to sleep without medication from here on out is certainly open for question.

This monster looked into the eyes of as NINE YEAR OLD girl and shot her at close range in the chest. She died without seeing her family.

What ‘healing’ are you fools expecting ? What ‘healing’ can there be for that young girls family?

Oooh yes they will say something courageous publicly because they are the sort of folks who have 'Christian beliefs' and I applaud them for their courage.

BUT I denounce everyone who makes lame excuses for this monster and cannot bear to see him die by the hand of the State.

Is this thread taking place in Medieval Europe? Does no one but William of Rites & DOCJT understand we have a legal system?

They don't want to understand it. Their need to hate supercedes their desire for knowledge and understanding.

If you're convicted beyond reasonable doubt, you rights are limited next to nill.

We'll see about Loughner.

That is an incorrect statement, Borderlands. Even the convicted retain rights.

Comprehension issues again I see.

Re-read my first sentence. And the fact you got two likes only goes to show the level of education of some folks in here.

I stated next to nil, which means they still retain some rights. next to nil doesn't mean none.

Yes, too many "rights". Probably more than the working people who are supporting the POS.

Agreed, certain rights should be retained before their trial. In fact when incarcerated those rights are indeed being upheld.

But certain rights after conviction are incredibly inept. For one, inmates at one of our correction facilities out here have a button. That's right... a button. To call a corrections officer when they need something.

Yes, Borderlands, God forbid they should have a medical emergency or that their roommate be killing them and they be unable to cry out and actually need human assitance and not be treated like the dogs they are! Excuse my sarcasm, but I'm beginning to think maybe you come from the borderlands-or maybe the Middle Ages. Do you think they should be put on the rack as well?

I don't know what the corrections facilties are like where you are, but I know that several kids have died due to lack of medical assistance in juvenile facilities where I am. Maybe you think that is okay and that they were punks who deserved it, but I don't. They were under 18, and they had basic human rights. You would as well if you were incarcerated. I'm a medical professional (a PT), and I've had patients sexually harrass me, hit me, pinch me in private places, spit on me, threaten to kill me, threaten my job, threaten to sue me, and confess things to me that would raise the hair on the head of the average person (not on your head, of course). These were things that were done to me personally, not just to society-yet I somehow treated all my patients with respect.

I'm not a nurse, but some nurses actually put their lives on the line when they come to work treating patients in the ER-gang members have been known to continue their fights in the ER, etc. We had a nurse who was literally beaten so badly by a patient in ICU that HE had to be hospitalized-and he was a big guy. I've treated psychiatric patients as well, something about which you apparently have no understanding. (If you don't understand something, by all means mock the person trying to explain it to you! That's really adult and responsible!) If you and your family can't deal with corrections jobs and treat convicted persons as human beings with certain basic rights, then maybe you are in the wrong field of work. Sorry to be blunt and rather sarcastic, but I've heard from corrections personnel who WERE able to do these things despite the dangers they faced and despite just wanting to get through their shifts in one piece every day. I'm not saying it's an easy job or that people doing it get many props for doing it-I'm sure it's pretty thankless. However, it's my personal belief that a job should be done right just like I had to do my job right. If I was unwilling to see my patients as human beings it was time to go into another line of work.

Due to family circumstances, I have also been around quite a few psychiatric hospitals and psychiatric patients-and I'm not uninformed about psychology academically either. It is obvious that you don't understand at all what schizophrenia is, Borderlands; and I suspect I would be wasting my breath trying to explain it to you. Unfortunately, there is a large segment of this country's population in all walks of life that prefers to hang onto prejudice about mental illness than be informed about it. It's the same way about race and religion-basically anything that is OTHER from what we are-so why not mental illness? I've seen horrible treatment of the mentally ill even in the medical community-and you don't even want to know what I've seen in the corrections community. (Not that everyone in either community is that way-I spoke of people in the paragraph above who did perform their jobs with dignity. I'm just saying that I've seen abusive treatment of the mentally ill-meaning that I've PERSONALLY seen it as an eyewitness.)

That was such a long winded response for such a simple answer.

They have cameras in the facility that covers most grounds seen too much and not ALL the cells have buttons. In other words, officers can get to the cells in time without the need for a button. At least in that corrections facility. And your response is disturbing, because you seem more hell bent on caring and comforting these individuals than giving them the punishment they deserve.

Oh, they also have this thing called cell blocks where the segregate criminals according to their conviction and gang affiliations. There have been deaths in that facility, very minimal, but none as high as you would assume. And the most recent death was a fellow who raped and murdered an 18 year old at a concert. He stuffed her body in the closet.

Nobody cares or misses him. You may feel otherwise but thousands of others don't and neither does Karma.

You probably should have asked a couple of questions before wasting so much time responding.

You don't know what you are talking about so STFU !

And I can clearly see you do. Yet another colorful poster that clearly has the mentality of a third grader with that 'oh so' awesome internet toughness behind the comfort of their keyboard.

You know, this place is far more entertaining than Foxnews ever was.

Sorry Josh Brogan, wasn't aware of your stance until I read your other posts. I retract my statement.

You don't know what you are talking about so STFU !

And you do. Please share your education about schizophrenia with us, Josh. How many schizophrenics have you known? What do you know about the prison system? Or the Constitution, for that matter? Do you share Borderlands' feelings for criminals, whom he or she is certain no one misses? Not even the mom of the inmate? (Some of these inmates do have moms, you know, who did not commit the crime. Do you care about justice for them?) Do you even care about our nation's Constitution, which guarantees certain human rights? I'll bet you are pretty gung ho on the second amendment.

Borderlands, I REALLY hope you don't have family in corrections careers if you feel that way about inmates in correctional facilities! (That no one will miss them or care if they get killed in custody.) Whether you care about it or not, if these people have not been given the death penalty, they deserve to be protected from death by the officers assigned to them. Any professional in a correctional facitlity knows this and will carry out his or her duties to the best of his or her abilities regardless of what the inmate has done. It seems to me that you feel they ALL deserve the death penalty regardless of whether or not they get a trial in direct contradiction to our Constitution. I'm done with you guys! You would scream your heads off if your own rights were threatened but you don't care one bit about someone else's. Did we really have a Revolutionary War with England for THIS?

And don't think I'm not for punishing the guilty. I'm just not for punishing them WITHOUT A TRIAL or KILLING THEM IN CUSTODY when they haven't been given the death penalty-against the US Constitution and penal codes. To do these things would make us like a third world country.

You don't know what you are talking about so STFU !

Sorry to post again. It occurs to me that maybe some of the issue here is that, while I know some things, I don't know your story, Josh. I have a feeling there may be more here than meets the eye. I'm willing to listen.

Probably not difficult at all. But this isn't about what is easy. It is about what is just.

I see your still alive........... Give the Vegetable a couple of bucks, she deserves it......

Look up, Bro. You're proving William's point.

You don't have to agree with it. You only have to accept it, and be grateful that our criminal justice system seeks to do what is just and not what fulfills the sick need for revenge.

As far as the facts to back up the claim...there have been volumes of research done on the topic. I suggest you avail yourself of the wonders of the internet and engage in a little research. You will be amazed at what you find, and your opinion will be much better informed. Try using Google Scholar and coming up with actual valid and applicable research studies.

So Doc..you think he can be rehabilitated?? He deserves that chance...huh??

Just? A defense team using scare tactics on the prosecution and the INNOCENT MURDERED VICTIMS!

You're the sick one bud.

Society is sick from top to bottom, your no different. You may not kill but im sure you cheat on your taxes an rip people off an go to church on Sunday to ask God for forgiveness. Wanna see @!$%#, look in the mirror.....

Rehabilitation is not an issue. Rehabilitation is a concern with a convicted criminal who is serving out a temporally limited sentence, and will be returned to society. Loughner will spend the rest of his life in prison. He will not be returned to society. Your question, therefore, has no application what so ever to this case.

Scare tactics? What evidence is there of scare tactics being used on any of the victims? You appear to be a bit confused.

So, you assume that you are so much more intelligent, and so morally superior, that you should be the one to tell the victims in this case what they should and should not be able to decide fulfills their qualifications for justice? I suggest you seek out a therapist. I see signs of delusions of grandeur and extreme narcissism in your attitude.

As far as the facts to back up the claim...there have been volumes of research done on the topic.

This debate still rages throughout college academic arenas to this day because there is evidence to support both sides of this issue. you can't cherry pick a few studies and simply ignore the opposition. For one, the DP in this country fails horrifically because of our appeals process.

You tell me a good purpose this man should live.

Scare...excuse me...manipulation is a better word. They fear a long drawn out trial isn't that correct? Tell me, why should it be? The man took loaded weapon(s) and opened fire on innocent people in broad daylight. There are witnesses. True, the jury might have one or more such as yourself. That could draw the thing out for months.

Pardon me, I don't think I'm more intelligent or superior to anyone. I just don't think this scum should be given anyone elses time/attention/taxes when he took away 6 other peoples lives.

Sorry, Borderlands, you will have to support your claims with fact and data if you are to be given credibility.

You are apparently very confused. There is no trial because Loughner has entered a guilty plea. It is not the result of any action taken by or on behalf of the victims at all. No one has threatened the victims with a long and drawn out trial.

And, yes, you do consider yourself superior to those who suffer from a psychotic illness through no fault of their own and are compelled to act as a result of that illness. You have just stated here that the sick have no right to life. That is evidence of your delusional sense of superiority as well as your failure to understand that a psychotic illness could strike you, or the one you love most, next.

And, yes, you do consider yourself superior to those who suffer from a psychotic illness through no fault of their own and are compelled to act as a result of that illness.

This requires some understanding of the function of the brain and the processes that cause us to act out whether it be in some mild way or something dramatic. This requires an understanding of the science. You have to understand how many have rejected science and chosen ignorance in the name of politics and religion. In essence, you may as well be debating a rock. Sad but true. Miilions like him.

This guy will never see the light of day regardless. Mass murderers are never released. He will be forcibly medicated the rest of his days unless he chooses to take his meds voluntarily but that will never gain him freedom. No examples available for the rock you are debating to point to otherwise.

And these same people will fight you for the right of such an undiagnosed person to legally purchase weapons no matter the behavior they might exhibit at time of purchase. Then they demand they die after they act out. That's the real irony!

Sorry, Borderlands, you will have to support your claims with fact and data if you are to be given credibility.

Naci Mocan

vs.

John J. Donohue III

Start there DOC... there's plenty more. But I don't have the time to educate you. You will have to learn how to conduct research on your own.

voxrationis - You, like DOC assume way too much.

I would fight for the mentally unstable to own a firearm? Wow, now you're thinking for me and millions of others.

Like DOC, get out, meet people, you might be surprised at exactly how wrong you truly are. There does exist other folks with other forms of vales and morals that don't fit the typical far left/right mentality today.

As far as him being mentally ill, yes let's keep him locked up for the rest of his life never seeing the day of light and on meds. That's a much better answer. Torture seems to be something you and DOC support.

Society will be protected from this individual. And lethal injection is not necessary in order to do so. Execution is only necessary to fulfill a sick need for revenge in a hateful individual.

No, it is necessary to ensure that a person with the intent to continually commit great harm to the public does not walk among society ever again. Sitting in a cell doesn't guarantee this 100%. The appeals process in our country has turned into a corrupt system when abused by folks who have a lot of resources.

We have the largest prison population in the world that has turned into a corporate conglomerate. Certain organizations bank on ensuring criminals continue to breed throughout our system.

Life without parole keeps a criminal from "walk[ing] among society ever again."

Of the 3,320 convicted murderers on Death Rowas of January 1, 2005:

65.0% had a prior felony conviction at the time of the murder.
08.4% had a prior homicide conviction at the time of the murder.
07.8% had criminal charges pending at the time of the murder.
26.7% were on probation or parole at the time of the murder.
4.9% were incarcerated or had escaped from incarceration.

22% were married, 21% divorced, and 03% widowed.
54% were never married.
46% were high school/GED graduates.
39% were under the age of 25 at arrest; 1.9% are under 25 now.
0.2% were 60+ years at arrest; 4.2% are 60+ years now.
The average age was 42 years. (27 at sentencing)

Life without parole doesn't guarantee that criminals will be behind bars...

Source:

Capital Punishment 2005
Department of Justice
Bureau of Justice Statistics

Death Row U.S.A., Winter 2007
NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund
97 Hudson Street, 16th Floor
New York, N.Y. 10013
(212) 219-1900
Death Row, U.S.A.

Death Penalty Information Center
1320 18th Street NW, 5th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20036
(202) 293-6970

Sorry Borderlands, no one has demonstrated that intent. So the remainder of your post is moot.

Life in prison insures that he will not walk among society again. The goal you have stated is accomplished.

And, Borderlands? Your numbers support exactly what? What do you extrapolate from those numbers? The numbers in and of themself are meaningless without application and intepretation.

I'm guessing based on the placement of bold lettering that Borderlands is saying that sometimes people escape from prison? Except the statistics were specifically about people on death row....so is the point that people who are given the death penalty might still get out and kill again? That seems the antithesis of the point borderlands is trying to make.

Maybe statistics relating somehow to the number of mass-murderers who plead guilty and are sentenced to life without parole and then escape and kill again? That's the only statistic that would apply here.

DOCJT - Even when the data is in front of you, you still ignore it.

Talk about getting spanked. Do you really want to continue? Your arrogance is growing, and your intellect decreasing.

It's a percentage, I gave you the sources now go do your homework. They support that your statement is not only false, but highly inaccurate. It is a FACT that life without the possibility of parole does not guarantee someone will stay behind bars Indefinitely.

Borderlands seems to somehow interpret (and I am basing this on his emphasis) that because 4.9% of people on death row had previously been incarcerated (or escaped from incarceration--why the distinction there without a breakdown?) that this somehow proves his point about life imprisonment not guaranteeing a person will never get out.

That conclusion cannot be drawn from the statistics he posted, and I can't imagine the leap of logic he had to take to get there. The statistic does not say what that 4.9% was imprisoned for, or what percentage was imprisoned for life, etc. It's a useless stat.

lostarchitect Let's talk about leap of logic. The data clearly stated that of that 4.9% clearly some had escaped. Which means, it proves beyond reasonable doubt that locking up someone for life without the possibility of parole does not guarantee they will be.

Which STILL makes her post invalid get it?

Seriously where did some of you get your education? In the back of a barn? Because comprehending this isn't that difficult ESPECIALLY when you can research the sources I gave on your own.

You know I used to post over at Foxnews quite a bit. Posting here is very much the same unfortunately. Agenda driven dribble with no basis other than to fulfill some asinine inhibitions. There's a few folks on here that have been able to give me a good debate, but so far... far and few between.

Sigh. Statistics are great, but misinterpreting them is not. Ridiculing those who question the interpretation does little to nothing to improve matters.

The Statistic - 4.9% of the 3320 (that's about 163 of 'em for those who are counting) Death Row Inmates on January 1 of 2005 were incarcerated or escaped incarceration.

The Conclusion - A "Life Without Parole" sentence does not guarantee that someone will stay behind bars.

The Issues - Despite the duality of the stat; either prisoners who committed a crime while incarcerated that led to the "death" sentence or prisoners who escaped, committed a crime, and were subsequently sentenced to death, which are two very different things; the major misinterpretation here is thinking that the statistic shows how many people who were sentenced to "Life w/o Parole" escaped their incarceration and then committed a crime that led to a "death" sentence.

Statistics are very literal and say exactly what they say. That statistic is relevant would be the number of inmates who escaped prison while serving a "Life w/o Parole" sentence and thereafter were not caught before committing other crimes. You can cite whomever you like but even when you don't limit your information to current death row prisoners, you cannot glean the necessary data from even the best available reports and piles of statistics (i.e. for example). By all statistical evidence prison escapes are on a continuing downward spiral due to increased technology used in maintaining the security of our detention facilities, especially on the Federal level, where they have continually had lower escape rates.

With all this said, your argument for meting out death rather than life in prison: that prisoners can escape to cause havoc amongst the rest of society, Borderlands, though not necessarily untrue, is not proved by the data you presented. Being rude and disdainful because someone doesn't thoroughly explain the incongruity of your conclusion to a statistic, hardly indicates any true desire to debate on your part; nor should you expect anyone who wishes for an actual real debate (sans braggadocio & testosterone) to think so either.

Do you vote republican? If you do, then you vote against your own well being! Then you and your dead fiance voted for her death! BTW, Mrs Giffords' husband also have military healthcare to fall back on.

FORWARD!

De2Or2010: Your an idiot. Are you aware that until the late 60s the States that had the highest death penalty rate were governed by DEMOCRATS! So your idea is to allow criminals to lanquish in prison for 20 or 30 years and let me pay for it. I say me, because you are most likey one of those that believe you should be given everything by the state at my expence. This man cold bloodly killed people. He will not change, and even if he did, It would not be anytime soon.

From 1955 to 1979 the States with the highest KKK membership were control by Democrats,, the States that voted against any bill that tried to end segregation were...you guessed it, Controlled by Democrats (Unless you forgot:Remember G Wallace) before you go off on a media driven tangent on the evils of the Republican party, look up real facts, and look at the history of YOUR party!

hey Paul, too bad about your imaginary friend! I have found so many of these "my poor fiance died because of no medical insurance" stories lets try using facts to support your case, instead of the surrent Democratic policy of fear and horror!

Projection. Most victims understand that revenge does not bring closure. Only those who have never had to deal with their own tragedy believes revenge brings closure.

You sure do speak for a lot of people DOC. Believe it or not there are people out there that find revenge as a form of closure. They really do exist, crazy huh? To think that there's folks out there not like you.

I'm not one of them because for me revenge has never brought closure, made me feel a little better, but for certain scenarios most folks will have to live with it for the rest of their lives.

Hate begets hate and only breeds more. But for some, that may be all they need to put the past behind them.

Oh? Care to cite me some case studies, Borderlands?

Ever known a criminal?

DOC,

You're engaging in the same projection you accuse others of. It's blatantly obvious you are no proponent of the DP, and that's your right. Where are your citations of case study that have interviewed loved ones affected by violent deaths and seeing what their leanings were in regards to putting their loved one's killer to death? Justice isn't solely relegated to those affected by the perpetrator's crimes; rather, the whole of society is affected. Our sense of security is affected by crime, cost of goods rise due to crime, and the flippant way criminals are viewed (glamorized to an extent, even) is something we as a society must deal with. I can imagine that many people - especially in today's times - who are struggling financially would have a hard time reconciling their beliefs on capital punishment with those who have killed and are fed, housed and clothed by the taxpayers.