I am with you, K.

K.Snider I soooooooo agree...

I believe religious fanatics are the reason for our arcane laws re suicide and euthanasia.

Had to put my dog down a while back. I was going to take her up to the mountains and terminate her myself, but was talked into taking her to the vet instead. Bad choice that I will always regret. She died scared shytless and was sent to a landfill, rather than enjoying a mountain and getting buried there.

Yeah, let's have all people come into a hospital shooting up the place because they think their family member is going to die. I agree there needs to be some adjustment for punishment but he cannot be let go free.......

Seven2Seven

Yeah, the man cannot go free cause he didn't want his wife to suffer. Gosh you are such a sympathetic human being. Follow the law to the T, no exceptions what so ever. Gee your such a sheep.

Sane Central - I don't understand your comments. Usually a dog gets a sedative and you can be with them which should help to make them comfortable, not scared "shytless". Sending her to a landfill was your decision. I have never been to a vet where you could not get the remains back. Perhaps you need to find a better vet.

Seven2Seven: If the laws were in place that allowed people to sign a form stating they wish to die humanely there would have been no reason to bring a gun to the hospital. She would have peacefully passed on by lethal injection - something we allow our most heinous criminals to be humanely put to death with...but not our suffering loved ones.

Ms. Snider, Everywhere I have worked, all that is necessary is for the family to say they want to withdraw Care. Once that is said and the orders written, we handle the rest and peaceful, pain-free death follows in a matter of minutes to hours depending. I've done it hundreds of times in three states and five facilities. It is normal.

All that said, bringing a gun into the hospital and shooting it in a room; a room separating other loved ones is not a normal behavior. Or acceptable.

K. Snider,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. My mother and I have had the same conversations. We're both happy (for lack of a better word) to live in a state with death with dignity laws.

K Snider, there are legal documents your mother (or anyone) can and should sign, such as advance directive and health-care power of attorney. Sorry, I'm an M.D. not a lawyer, but we did estate planning 15 years ago, after the birth of our daughter. Family trust, will, directives, power of attorney, etc. Cost ran about 2500$ then, not cheap but worth it.

Without knowing more about the wife's medical condition, I will just mention some generalities. One can refuse "heroic measures" such as emergency resuscitation, but say something suddenly happened and everything was done to save you, and now you are physically alive, maybe kept alive by artificial means, but not brain dead. That makes it very complex for all involved bc euthanasia is illegal here. Most docs, inc myself, would have a hard time "putting someone down" who is not brain dead, though it's done everyday for those who *are* brain dead when there is an advance directive or when the family is in agreement that that is what the patient would want. One of the most common scenarios for organ donation.

You might remember Jack Kevorkian, and other similar situations where suicide is assisted, but the "trigger" is still pulled by the patient.

In the situation where someone is terminally ill or in a life-threatening situation, there is no legal way to terminate life by "pulling the plug" in the absence of brain death, but if the patient's wishes are clear (e.g. advance directive) then the family has the right to refuse additional intervention, e.g. further resuscitation--CPR, breathing tubes, defibrillation--or decline say antibiotics should the patient develop pneumonia. It's a bit more controversial to ask to withhold fluids and/or feeding, bc watching someone slowly die from that is pretty awful. Not a good memory to leave anyone with.

There are definitely big gaps in patient education and information. An estate lawyer can give you the legal direction, but I'd be the first to admit the medical world is difficult to navigate, and drs not always the most patient communicators. You see, we charge for services and procedures, but just sitting down and talking to patients about these things, well many of us do it for free, but not enough. I believe there was some discussion about reimbursing drs for doing so in the original stages of healthcare reform but that was then twisted into "kill grannie" and "death panels". But, trying to stay away from political discussion here, I would say if you or your mom have a dr you trust, discuss these things ahead of time, and get the legal documents in place long bf you need them....mine were done when I was 32.

To give you an idea of how difficult things can get w/out advance directive, some yrs ago I was called into the ICU to put a breathing tube in a patient with severe emphysema who was unable to breathe on his own. His oxygen was very low and his carbon dioxide was very high, both can influence brain function (thinking clearly). He begged me not to put him on the ventilator, but here was my dilemna...was he in a clear state of mind? He *sounded* clear, but he'd been in the hospital for many days and there was NOTHING in the chart about his not wanting to be on the ventilator and he was IN the hospital for breathing problems, so I had no choice legally but to put the tube in. He actually recovered, and had NO recollection about not wanting to be on the ventilator, and actually went home. I suggested to him and to his family that he get an advance directive next time, don't know if he did it, but you get the idea of how difficult it can be.

I feel terrible for this man, he likely loved his wife and couldn't stand to see her suffer. He probably knew he would face charges. Without knowing more details, though, there is a likelihood that if he had gotten good counseling this could have been avoided. Even if she were say severely brain damaged e.g. after a stroke (she was in the neuro ICU) she could have been kept comfortable with enough sedation. I hope the med personnel communicated well w. him, I know it's not always the case, and even if they tried to sometimes loved ones can be too distraught to digest it all. No winners here, just a very sad situation.

sane central-

good job on being the first person to make this a partisan discussion. don't blame anyone for your decision but yourself. you took your dog to the vet. you didn't bury your pet on the mountain or cremate her.

anywho, i hope they leave him alone. medical technology can be a double edged sword...

You people are crazy if you think it is OK for someone to go into a hospital and fire a GUN to kill someone. This is not about the right to die which I totally agree is a persons right. It was firing a weapon in a hospital. What if the bullet went through the other room and killed your family member???

I think it was an emotional response to protect a loved one from perceived pain but it was the WRONG solution........

There is something like that...you can pull the plug, and not be charged with anything. But...the way I see it, what he did, wasn't out of love. Shooting your wife dead, wasn't love. I guarantee if it was really serious and she was suffering and wished to end it, the hospital would've allowed them to make arrangements for that. But is shooting someone in the head humane? Do you think she didn't suffer? Also, I've never heard of shooting an animal being part of humane euthinazia...the way you make it sound, it's ok to end someone's existence this way.

Just Sayin' - No, if she had still had a brain and said she wished to commit suicide, the hospital would have declared her incompetent and slapped her in restraints. See the message by the unusually honest and forthright doc above. And shooting a suffering animal was for a long time in rural America the epitome of humane treatment, before everyone was expected to [be able to afford to] outsource anything messy to professionals. Robert Heinlein had his character Lazarus Long give the advice (quote approximate) that "When the time comes, a man must be able to shoot his own dog. Don't farm it out; that only makes it worse."

I'd certainly rather not shoot my cat, for whom I'd lay down my life. But if she were plainly suffering and there were no vet to euthanize her, I would shoot her, and it would be out of love. If my husband wound up in a condition so horrific he was no longer capable of killing himself, I would shoot him out of love too, following the preferences he has expressed many times over the years. Because we have advance decision directives, that won't be necessary unless a medical facility gets its claws on him and decides that their profits and ideology trump his explicitly expressed and notarized wishes. Contrary to what you seem to believe, hospitals routinely fight tooth and nail to avoid abiding by the wishes of family members who say their gorked or dying loved ones would have wanted treatment withdrawn.

Laws allowing for assisted suicide are necessary and appropriate in the country today. How one chooses to end their life after their body has worn out through the ageing process is a decision they are entitled to make.

Yes they are and these wishes should be met, unfortunately our justice system is mixed with the beliefs of the Christian rule that does not permit suicide. It is obviously not the intellectual way neither is it the true legal majority but it is the infliction we suffer not to separate church from state. For sure, we see it now more than we have the last twenty years.....the separation is getting smaller and our rights are vanishing. We are "dust in the wind" of the system. Too sad when so many young people need financial help and so many old people simply want to die....at peace. It should be easy, yet it is impossible. Something is wrong with this picture.

My father had high blood pressure most of his adult life. This in spite of being very active, eating right and watching his weight. He told me several times that he was not afraid to die. He was afraid to have a massive stroke and live. He did not want to chance being trapped in a body he couldn't control but with the possibility of being very cognizant in his mind.

When he finally did have that stroke he was 84. He simply refused to eat. We tried to feed him but he wouldn't or couldn't swallow. Knowing his wishes we (my mother, sister and I) refused forced or intravenous feeding. He finally passed after about a week.

Even though that happened almost 20 years ago I still cry when I think we just let him starve to death. There was no 'plug' to pull. We decided to let nature take its course. But I also know that somewhere in there he made the choice to not eat.

He made me promise that were the worst-case scenario happen that I would take care of it. I promised I would. I'm very thankful I was never put to the test because I'm not sure I could have done so. And seeing him suffer would have been torture.

There should be some sort of legal way a person can request an overdose of morphine or something. I know it's a slippery slope but still... I feel the same way he did. I don't want to be in a nursing home basically incompasitated. If I have the physical and/or mental capability to end my life at that point I will. But if I can't I won't place the same burden on my son that my father put on me.

It's ok to not want to die. But I feel it should also be ok to not want to live, especially when life would not be more than just laying in bed. Oh, yes, he had all the DNR stuff.

I once told my kids that I didn't to live dependent upon a machine and a bottle of fluids. So they turned off the TV and stole my wine.

It would seem to be the right thing to do. Not to let anyone suffer. For suffering seems to serve no purpose in life. The only time life seems to matter is when it is good, when we have things going our way, when there’s a chance to grow, have a future in store with happiness, loved ones and we are able to accomplish those things which matter most to us. It would seem to make sense, that when those things are taken away and we see nothing good ahead, it would be the right time to end life. Why else cling to life until our bodies finally give out on their own? What is wrong with each of us simply choosing our own manner and when we leave life?

There are two types of suffering, those caused by our choices and those beyond our control. Of the two the first is the one that has guilt associated with it while the second is usually the one we question why.Though even then we often blame ourselves and say,"If only!" It’s been asked,” Can one truly understand joy if they have never known misery?" It is the Yin and Yang in life. Like the blind man given surgery so he can see, waiting in a dark movie theatre while someone describes the principals of film, light and earth. It means nothing until one turns on the movie. Have you ever sat in a hot car and finally gotten to some cold water? Or gone a day without food? How wonderful did it feel to finally eat again? Hopefully the first situation we make make more wisely as we age and the second life gives us less of.

Suffering actually seems to serve several roles in life. As much as one hates the thought. Aside from the billions who have religious beliefs; putting the body through rituals to cleanse it; that required by demands pushing its limits; sparking action for changes in societies or helping the body send messages indicating trouble medically, it has long been recognized as helping to build character. Thereby indirectly helping society to change the world. By teaching a multitude of positive human traits: Humility, patience, honesty, tolerance, good work ethics, appreciation and empathy. Gratitude, courage, sharing, service to needy, faithfulness, integrity, thriftiness, humor, resourcefulness, valuing life, fortitude, generosity, creativity, loyalty, independence and learning to pick one’s self up and rise above the storms of life. Compared to the opposite results seen and the negative consequences societies have suffered. Usually at the hands of the richer or those too protective of their young. When placed in positions of power, industries and influence it doesn’t take long for suffering to start. But even the person on the street can be lethal especially grouped together.

The easy road leads to a multitude of the weak character traits that help destroy a society: Intolerance, ungratefulness, lack of empathy, shallow emotional connections, meanness, insensitivity, poor work ethics, bitterness, deception, jealousy, dishonesty, disregard for others welfare, carelessness, arrogance and rashness. Including impatience, laziness, cowardliness, foolishness, selfishness, manipulative behaviors and materialistic. While missing out important stages to progressive insights about life itself. Resulting in immaturity, poor understanding between choices, consequences and acceptance of responsibility. With greediness, an entitlement attitude and taking advantage of others. Living with low self-esteem and self-centeredness their whole life. The child given everything is the spoiled adult never learning to respect the needs of others but demanding and taking what they want. But never truly feeling self-respect. No matter who they cause to suffer until society stops them or life throws them a curve that gives them no other choice but to change.Usually resulting in self destruction because they can't change by then.

The person who has traveled very painful paths can appreciate what they have and treasure each day. Their loved ones, what others are going through and respond with action. Reaching out to give support, lend a listening ear and a shoulder to lean on. They have developed an inner compass they discovered because of the particular storms they survived. Then some folks seem to get typhoons throughout their whole lives and stand as shining examples of remarkable courage and singular examples of the human spirit. They help the rest of us be grateful we have not had to travel such a horrific roads in life. Just keep in mind though,you never know who is watching your example. The courage you show as you go through the storms in your life, may inspire so many others to be brave enough to face the storms in their own

From such experiences in life we are placed to reach out to others suffering. We have opportunities to connect, strengthen and uplift those crying out. Who need someone to come to their aid. Thus the one in need becomes helped by the one who truly understands. The cycle repeats. When opportunities are taken, burdens are lifted, needs are met, love is shown and the world is made a better place. Communities are strengthened, countries can help others and so forth. It would be nice if everyone could grow from adversity. If everyone learned from their mistakes and always thought about the consequences before first making choices. If people got support when they needed it.

But life is not fair. People refuse to listen, reach out, get too busy, forget lessons once things return to normal. It's far too easy to blame others for their own mistakes or let personal weaknesses destroy their lives or another's.A river without banks is a flood.Too late the realization if only steps had been taken to keep things in check overwhelming suffering would not be now flooding lives. Or blame everyone else for not taking any action. Sometimes loved ones turn away when they should stand together or cause suffering themselves which leads to life long consequences to family members or society. Tearing lives apart.

Sometimes people are afraid of what they don’t know. This man’s wife would have been on medications. The doctors would not have let her be in agony. Was he afraid she was still suffering but unable to tell anyone? I am sure his wife never dreamed of him in this situation. Fear can make people do things they normally would not have.However we look at the decision to face the end of our lives is a personal choice. Hopefully it is one we will discuss with our families long before life places us at that crossroads.For a life lived with dignity, courage and love should not be easily dismissed when it comes time for going around the last bend in the road of life. When surveyed as to what people feared most about dying, the answer was being in agony. But research found, the real answer was fear of the unknown and being alone.While it has been said death is blowing out the candle because the dawn has come,in the vast majority of cases it has been found people died with their loved ones and not in pain.

How many men have wanted to put a wife suffering from PMS, out of their misery?

If it was really to spare the wife the suffering I would support him 100% if it wasn't it is murder. Simple

Unfortunately, not that simple. Even if she had a document stating that she wanted to get shot in the head, and it were signed by umpteen witnesses, it's still illegal. I wish they'd just change the laws.

According to the linked article, she was in critical condition in the ICU for "only" days. That alone didn't bode well for her survival. Why assure a murder charge for yourself? It seems as though she was on the cusp of passing, but it's hard to tell definitively from the article.

Ahhh yes, the dreaded "I did it for her own good, and out of love" defense.

d bill you don't believe that? So far there are no facts to state that his actions were of malice.

Under our current laws, it would have still been murder. That is why we need to change our laws. Death with Dignity acts regarding PAS should be the rule, not the exception.

Had to share the cynical teenaged son's comment after reading over my shoulder, "Don't pay the bills. Then the hospital will pull the plug for you." Not that far from the truth.

I expect the man felt confused and overwhelmed seeing his wife in pain. He is old and may suffer some form of dementia. Everyone knows, you do not go to a hospital and shoot anyone in the head, even though it may make sense to you. I would simply take away his guns and see that he has care in the wings. He is not well and needs more help than punishment. Very sad and also a reflection on our system which is a confusing mess. We need to let the sick old people die in comfort and peace as we save the young who have a future. Death is natural and should not be treated as a disease or calamity. Our society is in need of review.

it is absolutely true that many physicians regard death as failure. No one told them in med school that everyone dies.....the other sad reality is the fear of law suits. Between these two formidable issues, patients have little to say as they become pawns of a flawed system. We have a lot of cleaning up to do. One more issue.....reimbursements pay for overhead expenses even though they complain about Medicare, it is better than no money coming in to pay the bills...child support, alimony, mortgages on several houses etc.....

Mr. Punisher -

'Mens Rea' does not require malice. He simply knew what he was doing. He does not need to be 'mean' to be convicted.

Another consideration- she died the next morning. How much agony and pain was she in in between when she was shot and when she died? Again, I'm all for assisted suicide, but if you don't know what you're doing will end it quickly and peacefully, I'd step away from the responsibility.

I was thinking the same thing. No matter what your beliefs on assisted suicide, I'd take constant assistance in a nursing home over being shot in the head any day. It's one thing to pull the plug on someone who is brain dead, or cease treatment for a terminal illness. It's something completely different to walk into a hospital room and gun someone down with another person in the room. I wouldn't care how much my husband was suffering - there is absolutely no way I would ever shoot him, even if he begged me.

I doubt seriously he will ever see a prison cell. I predict he will commit suicide at the first opportunity. This is not an unusual situation at all for couple who have been together for many years, and many make a pact with each other regarding exactly what actions will be taken in similar circumstances.

I am afraid some legal eagle may decide to make this poor old guy an example. He really looks like an old dude with a touch of dementia to me and he simply could not take the sight of his wife in the condition she was in. In a perfect society, you should be able to ask her doc to get her out of her misery but we are not a perfect society. We are a legal, ethical, religious confusing mess with little hope in sight to see reality as we need to. Good luck to us all. We need it.

He thought she was going to drop dead. He had no clue she would die the next day. I can only think of added procedures tagged to her medical bill running into mega bucks. Poor guy. His confusion must have extended to terror. What a bad idea.

it almost seems like most of the people in here are ok with a little help in a manner thats painless when the time comes for them to go. I know I am. So whats the problem, why do the rules state different and government think differently? You'd think it would of been addressed already and made for people the way they want it and then things like this wouldn't happen. She would of been happier to go in her home with her loved ones around. I can't undertsand sufferring at all and I don't agree with being a veggie either. Just end it already.

It would be a cruel creator indeed that would require endless suffering by his creations in order to validate his precious gift of life. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that if any life is sacred, all life must be sacred. Since that's hardly the case, I'm all for being merciful in cases like this.

A few thoughts:

1) A world of absolute morality does not exist

2) If it did, we would ALL be immoral for one reason or another

3) Who gets to decide what's moral (and please don't say an invisible being)? Is allowing someone to linger indefinitely until they die a painful death moral? Is choosing the time and place of one's demise moral?

Unfortunately this poor gentleman chose a path that screws him in the process. I don't know if I would make rational decisions in a moment of distress (as he seemed to be). I guess the first mistake was taking her to the hospital. The second mistake was not seeking out your friendly neighborhood heroin dealer and giving her a lethal dose.

To gain some perspective, seek out the following documentaries (they are available on Netflix anYoutube): "Frontline: The Suicide Tourist" and "Frontline: Facing Death"

Pedestrian in SF (I don't know why the website will not allow me to respond to you directly), perhaps our perception of what is merciful is not merciful. This is why I love the view of the Bible. The creator, which I believe is God, didn't design the world with suffering to begin with. Man made a choice and with that choice came many consequences, one of which is physical death and suffering. God didn't demand that His creation suffered to please Him, but suffering came as a result of fallen man's choice. So all of us should suffer in this life and the next, but out of mercy He made a way for us to avoid spiritual suffering after death, obviously through Jesus. To address the other point about the sacredness of life, the Bible states that man was created different from other animals, and that man was to subdue them in Genesis 1:28, "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." The main point here is that God created man different in that He "breathed life" into man and not animals, and that man was made "in His image" or Imagio Dei. I know these points may not mean anything as we are both committed to different world views with which there is no common ground, but that is my frame of reference for my thinking.

JM- 1992894:

1). I think a little further discussion is needed regarding that point. Do you specifically believe that just absolute morals do not exist, or absolutes of any kind do not exist?

2). It is from the perspective of the Bible that i agree that everyone is immoral, at least after the entrance of sin nature into the world as described in the book of Genesis. Jesus further expounded upon this principle when He said that "if you hate your brother, you have committed murder," and "if you lust in your heart, you have committed adultery." We can see that immoral behavior comes from our hearts. We think, therefore we are.

3). An invisible being ha ha (even though i don't think that He is truly invisible as He can be seen in creation). Again, you may have to refer to my answer to Pedestrian in SF. it falls along the lines of, "if God is so good, then why so much evil and suffering?" Man was never designed to taste the death and suffering that we are, but upon the gift of free will, man chose poorly and consequences followed as we can also see in the book of Genesis, one of which is death. God didn't simply program us to do His will, but love is most powerful when the choice to love is made willingly of free will. Free will was our most precious gift, and our most detrimental asset. I know this discussion could go on for hours, but that's my brief synopsis. Thanks for the discourse. Hope to hear back from you.

lee gotthardt - so what exact poor choices did every animal, insect, plant, bacteria, virus, ameoba, etc in our known existance do to incur God to inflict death and suffering upon themselves?

Lee - I can respect a belief that says that any suffering nature inflicts on us (and on other animals) is part of God's plan. "Lifesaving" or existence-prolonging technologies aren't part of nature, though. The flip side of "You had a moderate stroke and now can't walk, God must want you to live with a disability" is "You had a massive stroke and are now totally paralyzed, comatose and unable to eat or drink, God must want you to die now." If the former is a cruelty, the latter is a mercy. But in our society, there are always a bunch of doctors there insisting that now is never the time to die, that suffering must always go on longer than a person could naturally survive with a given condition, as much longer as possible. And, frankly, people identifying themselves as conservative Christians are frequently at the forefront of a mob yelling 'Don't take those tubes out!" I find this hypocritical. Why is the MD's insistence on putting the tubes in not, in their view, usurping God's power to give life and death?

iaTherefore, only the creator of that being holds sway over their life and death, not another human.

This logic leads one to the natural conclusion that any medical treatment is opposed to the will of God. "You ingested that e coli bacteria because God intended for you to become ill, and if you die from it, that's because God intended for you to die."

Therefore any treatment is defying the will of God.

Sherrasama: Doesn't necessarily have to be the choice of every life form. I'll let you read further what is written in the book of Romans in the fifth chapter which describes my point precisely. The rules are not authored by man. There is no original thought. All logic and wisdom come from somewhere and it is not from our minds. All we can do is merely observe reality and make statements of truth from inference.

Jane-2056095: It's interesting that it's only in recent times with the medical technology that we now possess that this is a major issue, and I understand your point completely. I'm not one to say that no medical treatment should be rendered for anyone as it would be a lack of faith, and I am also not in favor of keeping someone alive for the sake of just keeping them alive. I think there is a fine line between the two views with which to walk. With the technology that we possess (and will continue to improve upon) we have to be careful not to overstep our boundaries. Perhaps people should seek care as they see fit and when the point comes for their heart to stop perhaps no intervention should be done. It's only recently in history that we have used the intubation, cardiac resuscitation, external pacemakers etc....to continue in life. All i can say is that when my heart stops, i don't want anything done to me. I know that this is a very grey area and that some may consider it an area of relative decisions, but i do know that it is wrong to take the life of someone. I'm a registered nurse and I've seen many people die in front of my eyes. I've also been involved in some situations where someone was saved and made a complete recovery. I don't believe that God's hand is in every situation willing some to live and some to die. My grandfather passed away from cancer, not in a hospital or a nursing home, but at his own home in his own bed. He could have opted to take his own life or request that someone else do it for him, but instead he chose to go in the comfort of his own home with his family around him. Dying is never a pleasant or painless thing, but God does offer hope that pain and suffering in the last minutes on earth will not be the end. In the end we all will die, it's an absolute. Perhaps the life saving technology that we possess does intervene in an area that should not be intervened in.

Severed head:

My statement was not meant to mean that God controls every aspect of our lives in a deterministic manner on this earth. These things that happen are not due to His hand, but from the entrance of sin nature upon the world and the consequences. It all has to flow from our theology. If we view God as a malevolent being, then bad things can be attributed to Him. If we hold that He is only good, then only good things can come from Him. It's about His nature, not what happens to us. The statement was simply meant to say that no man should determine when they live and die, not that God determines when they live and die.

lee gotthardt: if that's the case, why has every organized religion fought so zealously against scientific facts that have been proved by said observed reality when it did not conform to the ideals presented in the Bible? Galileo, Evolution, the age of the Earth, to name a few.

From a moral standpoint, why would God impose suffering on everything because of the act of one man? It doesn't really fit the image of a merciful God. If you're expecting me to shrug and say "thems the rules", sorry, I can't suspend disbelief so easily.

The pagan-era Stoic philosopher Epictetus also had a lot to say about whatever we suffer being ordained for us by God (in the translation I have; of course he was talking about Zeus). No matter what faith you believe in, there's an emotional benefit to taking an attitude of acceptance towards the things that are going to happen to you anyway. After seeing a good half-dozen loved ones horribly abused by modern medicine, I have become almost totally immune to medical fearmongering. The only way to be certain you won't die of natural causes (short of suicide) is to die of an intervention cascade, and I find the latter option repulsive enough that I have ceased to fear the former.

Jane, I agree with your sentiments wholly. If medical science spent more time in helping people die comfortably as they do in prolonging life past any degree of function save that which is dependent upon mechanical means, we as a society, would be far more evolved than we are.

bla...bla...bla...the creator ? no one needs to be on life support, indefinitely, with little hope to recover. Old people need to go and young ones in vegetative states as well. It serves no one any purpose to keep these organic bodies " alive". The creator has bigger fish to fry....like maybe trying to keep us from destroying our planet. That sounds like a project for a creator and not being concerned about one out of 7 billions souls, coming and going. Big picture.....

Tell your husband not to use a gun, maybe a pillow.....better yet, have a living will and a DNR request, documented by an attorney and witnesses.....$50....well spent. State all details about what you may want and not want. Talk to a doctor as well. They can give you clues about that. Never agree to a feeding tube. It takes legal action to remove it.

I watched and cared for my grandmother for 6 weeks as she steadily progressed and passed away. For those last few weeks of her life, she was stuck in a bed and the last 4 she was incoherent. It wasn't worth the pain and anguish for any of us, least of all her. If it had been an option, I would have been on board with ending it - she had terminal brain cancer and no chance of recovery. We were fortunate in that it was relatively swift; my one grandfather hung on and steadily deteoriated in a home for a few years before passing.

Why some stranger out there can dictate what happens to my life is lost on me...as long as they don't "take care" of me why should my life affect what their god does for them....Just plain asinine....

I agree whole heartedly. Why should some stranger dictate what happens in my life?

@AdvcocateforAbigail #5

The manner which he chose makes this wrong. The desperation he felt is understandable, however. Imagine the bills the hospital was racking up for "quantity of life" rather than quality. Sad news, it's wrong, but it's also understandable.

(Not to be as crass as this sounds, I am just saying)

Why was the manner which he chose wrong? Normally, a gun shot to the head is immediately fatal, it is a rare thing indeed for someone to survive. I surmise, she was actually dead from it, but being in ICU, the doctors were able to maintain her life artificially on machines. And being shot in the head doesn't necessarily mean "Blowing ones Brains out" depends on the weapon used, a .22 cal probably wouldn't even leave an exit wound.

But I do agree with your assessment of the hospital bills being "racked" up for "quantity of life" rather than quality.

The whole subject 'Tis a sticky wicket indeed. On the one hand we have death with dignity and on the other hand we are going to have death without honor. Meaning, given our current system, even with or especially because of, Obamacare (depending on your stance), until we can reign in the COSTS of medical care or its limited resources, people are going to die while waiting for a procedure, while others are forced to live out an unfulfilled existence.

I kinda like the Old Chinese philosophy, you pay for health. In other words, the Doctor doesn't get paid until you are healthy.

That is so sad MonkeyMo...I am so sorry for your loss and hope you have finally found some sort of peace.

@DumbFarmBoy:

I'm saying in the eyes of the law...murder is wrong. Understandable....absolutely. Unfortunately he will be punished. He walked into a hospital setting with a weapon, held that weapon to his wife's head, and pulled the trigger with a doctor in the room. I see nothing but desperation in this story. It is our government's fault that this type of action is seen as the "only way" for so many. Did I pass judgement? Didn't mean for it to come across that way. I am a firm believer in "those without sin, cast the first stone." I can not say in his state of desperation, that I would have done anything the same or differently. All I can say is this man will pay for his actions in the court of law. Pay for it in God's eyes...that isn't for anyone here on earth to decide, especially me.

And I never mentioned brains going anywhere so maybe you meant that part for someone else.

@AdvcocateforAbigail

I apologize for the misunderstanding, and I wasn't trying to be disparaging. It is just that I have had to euthanized numerous animals, both pets and livestock over the years. And given the choices this man made, before (I noticed several comments on the topic of having ones partner dispatch oneself) and/or during this sad event, and his access to lethal devices, a gun seems to be a reasonable tool for the job.

There are other, better methods, but one needs access to certain pharmaceuticals, which he may not have had. And I know a few other ways, but I ain't telling some of you.

But I disagree, "He walked into a hospital setting with a weapon, held that weapon to his wife's head, and pulled the trigger with a doctor in the room...desperation in this story." and perhaps I am wrong, but I see devotion. And just a more than a little courage, to sacrifice himself for his wife's wishes "not to become disabled in a nursing home...Barbara Wise felt the same way. "

What would you do to save your child from suffering?

All of us in the medical community want the plug pulled if we are no longer functional, of sound mind and body, and have no hope to recover 100%. That said, I know some of us have no living will, no DNR and family members that may not feel that way...so...make sure you get these legal papers documented and available so when the crash cart comes around the corner, they see that DNR sign and stop their efforts to bring you back. I always thought I would put a fake tattoo on my chest of the DNR sign when I felt the time was right. It may be...don't know, but I am not ready for that ugly thing on my chest. Vanity may get me in the end.

@ alumette

I saw a news report on a lady (84 yr old, I think) and she had "Do Not Resuscitate" with her signature Tattooed on her chest, (in an inconspicuous spot, but visible to anyone who would be resuscitating)

I think it was one of those "Is it legal?" things. Anyway, the experts said, since it wasn't really her signature (the artist copied it) it was not legally binding. So, you needn't bother.

As I said below, until we get tort reform, The cost to live, and the cost to die, are going to keep going up.

I can agree with you. I appreciate your comments. What would I do for my child? I don't know. As stated before, if we are not in this situation, we just don't know. I commend him for his actions in a lot of ways, he did what he did, fully knowing the consequences of his actions. That's where I agree with you on the devotion part. I'm glad we cleared that up. The desperation was not having the "tools" to do this in a more "humane" way in the eyes of the law and society. i.e. the medicines.

You are right about physicians afraid of being sued. There are people who put elders in nursing homes, never visit, do not pay anything yet would try to collect money at any opportunity they may see. These people are despicable but there are plenty of them. Until our legal system changes, we are trapped. It is better to some degree but we have a long way to go. Many physicians are intimidated by unethical lawyers as they feel every move they make is scrutinized and not for good reasons. A good reason would be the well being of the patient and what is best for everyone but it is all about collecting money for law firms....term : ambulance chasers.

I don't think he will be alive very long. He will probably blow his own brains if they let him access to any gun. Guns are never an answer. I don't find them civilized. Why is the poor old guy wearing a hospital gown ?

I was thinking that too, but didn't want to say it.

For profit health care. I totally agree.

That is stretching it too far - blaming the health care industry. Hospitals are legally required to provide ALL the options - even if it is QUANTITY. Otherwise they face the threat of being sued out of existence.

It is the patient's relatives, religious zealots that extend the misery. Dr K, The Florida case are few that caught national attention. Euthanasia is accepted in major developed countries. It is the BACKWARD country of US, that which serves the Christian Right that stands from improving the QUALITY of life.

As a person (not a Doctor) who have the opportunity to interact with old, suffering individual in the hospitals - one can see they have lost HOPE but are hooked to machines and a miserable, painful life because their religious belief, family & friends.

It is not the PROVIDER do not blame them. These folks are a DRAIN on the system also (from a pure financial perspective especially Medicaid and Medicare) but that is a irrelevant point.

It is the FAMILY, It is the RELIGION - not the HOSPITALs.

But there are some doctors who hate to lose. When my mother was dying of multiple inoperable menigiomas, completely paralyzed on one side, unable to speak, her doctor tried to talk us into doing whatever was required to keep her alive. My father asked him how long she might live, and the doctor told him, "maybe two or three months if I do everything I can."

Dad asked him what the point of that would be, and the doctor actually told us, "Each day of life is a gift I can give her."

Keep in mind that we were all standing next to her hospital bed during this conversation, and she heard every word.

Fortunately both my parents had signed living wills, and my brother is an attorney. As it turned out she entered a coma the next morning; we ordered the living will terms be honored, and she died peacefully a week later. On their 50th wedding anniversary.

You are correct, severed head in a jar. Doctors are trained to prolong life at all costs. They are not trained to help people die. At least not in this country. We need to take a closer look at the way other countries handle end of life situations. They are far more humane than we are in the majority of instances.

It starts when people go see a GP for some minor ailment. They are then on a conveyor belt that goes all the way to invasive specialists. If people stayed home and took care of themselves, that circle would shrink. They could decide when to live and when to die. After all, to die is a natural thing. I call it " living on my terms". So far, it is legal.

You would be amazed, Jane, at the number of couples who have made such arrangements between themselves.

When you suffer more pain, agony, and tribulations of life come back and post. Because you just sound niave.

he's just 12 years old.... what can you say.

Mr. Punisher -

Are qualifed to post here because of your "pain, agony, and tribulations of life?"

I don't see it in your postings.

Lary, all be it an obscene waste on so many platforms but the method he chose was a bit barbaric, and it would appear that the chosen tool was improperly sized to relieve her suffering quickly. If they are going to slap him on the wrists that is where to start.

Mr. Lary -

Suicide might be "a private end of life," But this was one person murdering another.

I hope they play Beethoven's 6th when you pass on.

I do not understand why you blame the doctors. Lawyers may be ;). Doctors can not TERMINATE him. The State, you are a part of it by electing the Government, will prosecute him. You and your family can sue the doctors (with lawyers ably assisting you). Why risk their livelihood ?

There is a wrong perception that doctors keep them alive to milk the system. Probably a few (I may be laughed at for saying that but the fact is the doctors are human too though they are desensitized to suffering).

You have to change the legislators who can enable Euthanasia as a legal way. Stop prosecuting folks like Dr. K.

Do you earnestly believe, the doctors are going to risk 10 years in prison (thatz what Dr K got) to come to the aid of the dying?

The problem lies with US - not the doctors and/or hospitals.

They will make their money some other place. Demonizing them is not solving / addressing the problem of QUALITY of life and DIGNITY for the dying.

Your father evidently suffered brain damage but was not brain dead. He did not suffer, as he did not feel his lungs not pumping air. Had he been declared brain dead, they would have asked you to stop the life support and let him go. Someone would have asked for organs or tissue donations....evidently, it was justified to keep him " alive" until his heart gave in. Dr.s have protocols they have to follow, they cannot let people die if they have no DNR form on file. A DNR means they want to be left to die and require no special measures to keep them alive. I expect your father had no such request. It is important to know about these things. It has to be documented while of sound mind and body and cannot be decided by family members. Complicated ? not really. Get informed on that. It is worth the effort.

A person who is in the hospital cannot take several morphine patches; they're doled out one at a time. And if they attempted to commit suicide, they would probably be forcibly restrained and perhaps even force-fed. I agree that if you still have a brain and a hand working, suicide is preferable to euthanasia, but you have to stay out of a hospital, or manage to get out, to accomplish it when the time comes. (And, as an article in the NYT shows, your spouse might still be prosecuted just for sitting with you while you die, rather than having you dragged back to the ER.)

However, this woman had "three aneurysms," according to one report; she was probably too brain-damaged by some acute cardiovascular event to have any ability to commit suicide or even refuse treatment. If she did not have an advance decision directive, the doctors would probably, and profitably, refuse instructions from her husband to withhold treatment. They can always use the excuse that there's "some chance" she'd "recover" - probably meaning that she'd live to go to a nursing home and be tube-fed. That might not mean extreme pain, but it's extreme horror for anyone who values their independence and dignity. This brave man couldn't PUT his wife into a vegetative state if she was already there. And I'd like to see the MDs involved made to fess up to whether he first pursued the legal course of asking for treatment to be withdrawn and was told to get back in his place.

I can see your point and it is valid, however, if she was that bad off, and if she had a living will, and a power of attourney with someone competent being the signator, then if she was in that bad shape, and that was her wishes, the horsepistol would have to agree.

And yes there are a lot of grey areas. My father was living in florida and had a massive stroke, however is did not kill him. When i was notified i went to florida and low and behold my father was taken to the horsepistol, he had an enlarged heart, hypertension, diabetes, and stage 7 altzheimers. I was told all this after numerous "tests" by the doctari. I told the doctari to quit (cant print that word here) with my father or he would cease to exist. (the doctari). I had my father taken back to the nursing home, no way i could care for him, called in hospice. He was put on Morphine. Now my sister got in the act and wanted a feeding tube put in. I refused as i had a living will and my father had a talk with me also and told me his wishes. so there was no feeding tube. The morphine at this stage generally stops your breathing and you go peacefully to sleep. So it was with my father. Hardest thing i ever did. And after all the fighting with my sister, she got cancer three years later and checked into a hospice, morphed up and checked out. Guess she learned.

POint being get a living will made. Have someone on a power of attourney in the event you are nonresponsive. and as i remember from my dads living will: Death is a natural part of life. If at some point there is no hope for my recovery, then make me comfortable and let me pass. It's called DNR, do not resusitate. If that had been done in the above situation i suspect their might be a differant outcome. But if there is none of the above, which i have not seen any referance to it. then the husband would have no rights as those rights would be given him by his wife in writting. Which if anyone is reading this it would be a good opportunity to do this for yourself. And save some headaches for your family.

Amen, Thomas! If you don't have paperwork, you may end up with no rights at all. You have my sympathy for the ordeal you went through. Most of my blood relatives believe that they should have "everything done" and that's their right, but if anything ever happens to me and my husband at the same time they'll be POed to discover that my mother-in-law is my alternate for medical power of attorney. I trust her better than any of my own kin not to go bananas and consent to everything.

So many young people don't go to the hassle of filling these things out, especially in states where they must be notarized in front of witnesses. But every single one of us is one car crash away from a nursing home.

Everyone, everyone, everyone should have a living will spelling out your wishes. Do not leave it to your family members to have to make these decisions in their time of grief. Having a living will is the most loving thing you can do for your family members.

DOCJT - In my home state a living will applies only if you are guaranteed to be terminally ill and dying no matter what might be done to keep your body alive. If there is any possibility whatsoever that you could be maintained for more than six months as an ICU or nursing home zombie, the living will does not apply. In that case, you must have an advance decision directive or your family will not be permitted to withdraw treatment. In this state, that directive must be notarized in front of witnesses when you sign it. I live in Missouri, the state that did so much to protect Karen Ann Quinlan's Sanctity of "Life," where you'd better have your treatment-refusing paperwork in order to the last dotted i because the state is your enemy.

The attorneys will judge - they stand to profit!

The prison system will judge - they stand to profit from his incarceration at the taxpayer's expense!

It's all about money.

It sounds like this man was protecting his wife. Once your life as a functioning human being is over, depending on your values, a pack of allopaths may be a bigger threat to your well-being than any equivalent number of gang members.