As a Catholic who has a very libertarian attitude towards issues such as gay marriage, abortion, and contraception use, I fully support the nuns. It is possible to remain true to your faith while having tolerance and respect for those who may lead lifestyles that may not reflect your faith. Honestly, it's about time that all people (religious, secular, liberal, conservative...whatever titles you want to use) start living by that idea.

Nuns, "A hard habit to break."

...and if anybody wants a perfect example of what I referred to in my previous post, please read News98's post above...

news98-

They hate men because they aren't men? Are you stupid? They hate religious order because they are rebels? Wasn't jesus supposed to be a rebel? They hate? Really? how do you know they hate anything? you don't know. You're just talking out of your ass.

News98

Not just on this particular thread but on others as well, you have a very twisted narcissist misogynist world view.

With a mind as closed as yours you must really struggle.

Nuns have long recognized the Vatican's attitude to women - they aren't stupid or blind. Although it mattered, it wasn't critical as long as the nuns could continue with their commitment to social justice and community work. But now the Vatican is threatening that work which, IMO, is the work that Christ asks of all his followers. So now is the time when they have to act. It is not so much that the nuns are going against the church's teachings as much as it is their lack of focus on the church's current conservative focus. And nothing irritates the church hierarchy so much as the failure of people, especially people under church authority, to fall into lock step with their program.

The nuns have their work cut out for them - the US cardinals and bishops behind this crackdown are masters at Vatican politics. Besides, they're men, and we all know that gender is trump in the church. Hope they can get thru this with their mission intact and it will lead eventually to much needed changes in the church as a whole - it desperately needs to get back to Christ's 2 laws (love god, and love your neighbor) instead of demanding blind obedience to the volumes of church-made laws that are more about bowing to the church's will than doing Christ's work. You go, sisters!

@news98 - the Vatican is calling, they want to offer you a job. Comes complete with pointy hat, cool red shoes, and all the misogyny you could want. You might want to take them up on it - you'll fit right in.

News you my friend are an idiot, they do more in the name of Christ than the "Holy Father" or they local priest. These women get out and provide food for the needy, they spread the word of Christ to those who have never known it. I was not raised catholic, but remember the nuns in the hospital running around in their habits and it didn't matter to them what denomination you were they stopped in and always followed with god bless before they walked out the door. How many Priest did I see during that time...hmmmm none, why because I wasn't catholic so I didn't deserve their time, now remind you this was a three month stay. Can you remember a very special nun Mother Mother Teresa of Calcutta, what a special woman she was. The men of the church are a bunch of hypocrites that can't handle the fact that these women are finally seeing the evils and moving forth to proclaim Christ in a manor that Christ himself would have done. Keep going sisters they're a kingdom waiting on your arrival... God Bless!

@denver bill 2 - I for one would be glad to. Had nuns as teachers for most of my grade school and high school years - they are amazing, strong women who exemplify Christ's teachings and I think I owe them a lot. That kind of veiled threat though is the kind of thing the Vatican does - do what we say, or we'll punish you. Really Christ-like, don't you think?

It is really quite simple - nuns and sisters hate child abuse - priests, bishops, cardinals and el papa himself either don't care, enjoy it, hide it, or pontificate on it. Result nuns/sisters pissed and the command structure is running scared.

So far as I am concerned YOU GO GIRLS!!!!!!!! Some people actually do right by their belief's and the best thing possible is that the nuns and sisters break away and form their own church and continue to help the downtrodden. Total Support!!!

Denver, the Vatican won't close them up. They may shake their finger at them, but without women to do the actual dirty work the men would find they have no more lackeys to order around. Dog forbid they cut their own grass.

God bless you sisters........the nuns are out there working and the men in the church are getting too involved in right wing politics........................this is not the way it has been in the church...........the church itself always stood up for the working men and women of this country until recently. Instead of thanking the nuns the political hierarchy is trying to do away with the good our nuns and our Catholic ancestors fought for in the USA....they built our schools and great education, they nursed our elderly and helped the poor etc....what are these men thinking?

I gave up supporting the RC Church years ago. I love Jesus Christ and try hard to follow his loving teachings. I love everything that Buddha has given us too. People who want to help others are important role models for me and I hope we are evolving, as a species, to a higher level of conscious being. If the nuns break away I will put my money where my mouth is and support them. I do wish the Vatican could get back to representing the word of our Lord.

I only have one thing to say!! When was the last time you heard a story about a nun abusing a child? Sexually or otherwise, I do not hear stories of bad nuns. They teach wat they are supposed to teach. Catholic nuns preach catholic faith. So ultimately THEY need a babysitter for what reason? Maybe popes, cardinals, bishops and priests should think again.

Sisters, you have my full support. Sister Theresa took it upon herself to start her own order in which to do God's work on earth. You should most definitely let Rome know your views. Love your maker and Love your neighbor is what we all should do every day. The other rules that my former church has created do not matter in this life or the life after this one.

to @denver bill 2 from LizzieFromBoston Great thinking from the heart. My thoughts on denver bill 2 comments about if the vatican closes their convents ,is what are those male child molesters and wealth holders of gold and riches going to live when Christ over turns their house and exposes them for what they are. Is denver bill 2 going to open his house to a child molester! Cause the way they have hidden, for a life time of this church , everything since its beginning , it would be Russian Roulette with added bullets for @denver bill 2's house to be housing one of its vile Bend Over Gang!

Catholic School Grad: no stories about nuns abusing a child...aside from the occassional rap on the kuckles with a ruler. Sadly, I received a few of those...lol.

News98 said:

They have ignored their vows, they have ignored their orders and they have ignored the history of the church.

They haven't ignored their vows.

They vow to live chaste, spread the Word of God (which, as I understood it, was to do unto others and to love everyone and help everyone) and be obedient and faithful unto God.

So far as I can tell, they have been faithful to God and lived a chaste life (ever heard of a nun sexually abusing little girls and boys?) and have done their best to spread the Word and teach love to your fellow man. They have been obedient unto God.

They have sworn to obey God. They didn't swear to obey the Pope. The Pope is not God.

If God has a problem with how they have chosen to spread His message then let Him tell them. As He hasn't sent any bolts of lightning or plagues of frogs or biblical floods down on the nuns, one can assume He's fine with how they've chosen to interpret His directives.

(this is coming from a practicing pagan who was raised Catholic.)

Hughes, so what are you saying? That it's not possible to live via the tennets of whatever faith you follow while still respecting and loving those who may share a different view? From what I've gleaned from this, the nuns aren't in favor of abortion, gay marriage, or use of contraception. Rather, the Vatican is P.O.'d at them because they are not "outspoken" in their positions. I think it's wonderful that these women can live their lives in service to God while being open enough to love those who don't share the views of the Church. "Love one another as I have loved you." It seems as if these nuns are the only ones living by that credo.

This is evolution of the Catholic church, whether the Vatican likes it or not.

The nuns have evolved; they have risen above the petty conflicts that keeps the Church and Vatican pinned to the wheel of karma.

The nuns have evolved to the point where they love humanity unconditionally.

Catholic church and Vatican should sit up, take notice, and learn something.

@news98 - I'd much rather be in their hell than your heaven, any day. Seems like it will be a much fairer, more caring place.

Why are Catholics of this day and age acting like the Mormons? By treating their women like they aren't supposed to have any say whatsoever? Why are both religions trying to force their women into submission?

Religion is voluntary; at least in civilized countries. The vatican should be checking the big front door for notices nailed to it. ;)

Fist Bump Sisters!

Educated Nuns are totally more compassionate than men in pointed hats.

OneJulia that's right. I was brought up very Catholic but the views of the church are stuck in a previous archaic era. The world has changed and if the Church doesn't change with it they're going to be left behind. God doesn't care about orthodoxy--God only cares about whether or not we humans treat each other with respect and decency and love.

The Nuns follow the teachings of Jesus and continue to do his good works. They truly care about others!

The old men who run "The Church" have long forgotten those teachings in favor of maintaining their own power and wealth. The Vatican is full of pompous old fools who care for no one but themselves.

Some people are against everything, today's evil people are Nuns. You have to reach very, very far to find something to blame on a Nun. As far as I can tell, their only sin, is thinking for themselves. You are not supposed to just take what everybody say as the truth. Because it came straight from the Vatican does not automatically make it true. Old men living in a ivory tower making rules that the people living in the real world must abide by. For them to put up with this for so long, says a lot about the heart of a Nun.

Catholic School Grad:

Actually, when I was in preschool (catholic preschool) one of my teachers (who was a nun) would hit me, pull my hair, slam my face into a book, etc. Then she lied about it when my mother questioned her. I loved all the other nuns, as they were the sweetist women ever, but yeah, they do have bad eggs too. I was 4 at the time btw.

That was just an aside. I suppor the nuns in the fact that the vatican is angry about them focusing too much time with the poor, and not enough time speaking out against gay sex. I just want to know what Jesus spent more time doing? Helping poor people or saying gay people cant marry. hmmmm. Havent seen them speak out for any of these things that the vatican is against. They just seem to think that helping people is more important than politics. Oh, and to the man haters out there, there are male monks (catholic) who go around doing the same thing as the nuns.

News98, what have you been doing since you helped nazi war criminals escape in the 1940s?

At least the Nuns have been true to their faith and haven't abused children like the Priests have.

The leaders in the Vatican want to take this world back to the Spanish Inquisition, just so they can have power over the people.

As Gandi stated "I like your Christ, I can't stand your Christians"

Jesus

respected

WOMEN

.

Signed,

Mary Magdalene

I fully support these sisters. And, so should the VATICAN. They are reaching out to the sick, the poor, the disabled and helping these people in their times of need. How is that against church teachings? I left the Catholic Church years ago, when they tried to annul my 15 year marriage even with 2 children, SO my husband could remarry (a week after the divorce) in the Catholic Church. He got denied after my Catholic Mother had a "chat" with the Priest.

I do not align myself anymore with their ancient rules, that protect pedophiles but vilify women and anyone who is needy or poor. Suffering IS suffering and these Nuns just like Mother Teresa are doing the right thing, for the right reasons, and I would bet his Heavenly Father, is with the Nuns on this as well. Go SISTERS!

What we are seeing is exactly what the article hinted at: the formation of a "new" Catholic Church that is respectful of, but not obedient to, the Vatican.

Folks, I've had New98 on "ignore" for some time now. I suggest you do the same. They have nothing to say that is worth reading.

While I am not a Catholic or even a Christian I support the Sisters. Keep up the good work ladies.

I noticed above that someone mentioned that the church was once on the side of working men and women. Not in my recollection. There were some individual priests and nuns who may have done so ( and they were lucky if no one noticed) but on the whole, the RC church and almost all of the other denominations have been on the side of the political power structure , both here and abroad, no matter how repressive. How come? For the same reason Dillinger robbed banks.

Has anyone asked why MSNBC cares about this issue (which is an internal issue for Catholics)? They are, and have always been, anti-religion. Their only aim is to get the religious community arguing within themselves, because when they (the religious) stand together, those who hate religion can't get a "foot in the door"...

Just stop, take a breath, and look at what those who hate religion are really up to....

to John and catholic,

i'm glad you're a happy catholic and why shouldn't you be? you're a man. and almost since the beginning of the church, men took over, relegated to women to the status of property and haven't stop since. everything you mentioned that the women get to do is lip service. they can't be priests. and why should priests have to be celibate? that wasn't there originally.

you should study a little of the history of your own religion. the emporer constantine, far from 'seeing the light' decided, because the christian cause was NOT going away that 'if you can't beat them, join them.' so he embraced christianity and subsequently hijacked it. he took pagan rituals and festivals and integrated them into christian dogma. he set himself up as the returning christ. it didn't help him keep his kingdom on earth, but it did change the church from a peaceful, caring, altruistic gathering of people into the Catholic Church.

i don't hold the catholic church responsible for what it did in the past, because ideals were different and have evolved over time. by comparison to just a hundred years ago, the church is much better. but, they are still, like most religions so deeply invested in archaic, ancient, useless dogma and belief systems, that there is no surprise so many people are giving up on organized religion.

you notice that i didn't say God. people like me believe that there is a presence, an intelligence to the universe and that it connects to us. but, just like Jesus understood and tried to teach ignorant peasants who believed in demons and monsters, what God is looking for isn't following rules and dogma, but rather moving always in a positive direction, being caring, and loving and humble.

everything in the universe works in perfect harmony. even the violence of the black holes are intricate to the life and breadth of the galaxies that surround them and ergo to our very existence. every bit of life on this planet works in harmony with everything else. volcanoes create rich soil that brings forth lush life. tornadoes, hurricanes and fires, all rid us of the dead and leave the pristine to grow. animals all live in perfect syncronicity with one another and with the planet. the only thing that is out of place is US. we contribute nothing to the overall beauty of the world. we tear down trees, we poison the waters, we kill the animals. we get in the way of nature and then we blame nature for hurting us. so, why are we here? i don't have the answer to that. maybe this is a grand experiment to see who can raise above the innate human failings and become like Jesus, like Buddha, like so few others, true children of the universe able to live in harmony with ourselves and God. i know this sounds like so much idealistic bs, but then what was Jesus' idealism? bs? we have the scientific means to live in harmony with nature right now, today. but the greed of the powerful stands in the way and the greed of the everyday human who has to have what they want and they want it NOW!

to the nuns, stand your course. separate yourselves from the church and go out on your own. the church will excommunicate you all, but that's ok. because so many people will follow you that the church will begin to lose its power and it will one day fall. i belong to an organization of buddhists who refused to go along with the priestly hierarchy of their church and more than 12 million people were excommunicated. since then, in the 1980, the Soka Gakkia Intl has become a thriving layman's organization working for peace, brotherhood and equality. far from falling apart as the father church of Nicherin Shosho expected, the SGI has thrived and moved into almost every country in the world, spreading the word of peace and the idea of cause and effect. if you do good deeds, goodness will follow you, because the universal mystery, that's what God is, a mystery, seeks only positive energy. when you do evil or have evil thoughts and wish evil upon others, you bring into your life that very evil, or should i say, you separate yourself from the universal good, because God cannot connect to evil.

you don't need a church to be close to God, but if you feel the comradeship and love in going to church, then by all means do it. whatever makes you happy. but, don't let any church convince you that judging anyone for living their lives differently is somehow evil and they have no right to their own choices. that opens the door to prejudice, hatred and violence. just look at what is going on in the world today all in the name of God, or Allah or whatever you want to call him. no one can change that except each and everyone of us. we have to CHOOSE not to follow the hatred and leave the false preachers to themselves.

JCMeg, if you're an example of a "new Catholic," then the Church is doomed. Just remember, as quick as you are to condemn and turn your back on these women (and I still can't figure out why, since they have not done or said anything to harm the Church), they would be just as quick to offer help to you if you found yourself in a time of need. THAT is a truly Christian attitude, as opposed to your vitriol.

@news98 and others: if the nuns are going to hell for tolerance of gays, birth control, etc, then they will be standing in a loooonnnng line behind thousands of perverted priests. And behind the popes that help cover up for the perverts. You go Sisters!!!!!

I can't believe the ignorance and hate coming from the "christians"...Mother Theresa went out into the "world" JCMEG and did what she believed Jesus would do and what Jesus would want her to do and that is exactly what these nuns are doing. You have twisted the words of Jesus to your liking, exactly what the Catholic church has done for Centuries. Jesus said Judge not and he also said, Love your neighbor as yourself...He said many things...Other people said wonderful things too but those were taken out of the bible centuries ago. Ever hear of the Apocrapha or the Gnostic Gospels? I feel sorry for you living this lie. Twisting the words and meanings of a man that loved all people and did whatever he could to help ALL PEOPLE...Good luck to you.

JCMeg, where in the New Testament is it written that the Pope and his cache of cardinals shall dictate how women in the Church are to be subservient to men, to be made less than human in status? Eve was not made by God to serve Adam as his hand-maiden, but to be his partner...equal in the eyes of the Lord.

How you feel is how you feel on this, and I have no wish to change your stance. All I want is some New Testament scripture, or better yet, anything Jesus may have said in his teachings, that demand that women of the church be subservient to men.

I firmly believe these nuns are devout in their faith in God and their faith in the Holy Trinity. Their views that the Catholic Church needs to bring their beliefs and practices into the 21st century are valid. It's high time the RC Church recognizes that women were not put onto this earth to be subservient to men and to be used solely as a vessel to procreate. It's insulting, and it's wrong!

JCMeg, show me the scriptures that say the Church's views on this are correct!

The nuns volunteered to put themselves under the church and forsake a "normal" life in order to do so. Their attitude now is one of rebellion against the organization they volunteered to serve. I believe if they can't support the church's teachings and requirements, then they should quietly step aside and quit trying to tear down the church. They are hurting the organization they pledged their lives to and using the support of the world to pit themselves against the church. I am not catholic and I am know I am in the minority, but when you join a group voluntarily knowing what they believe, then it's up to YOU (not the organization) to adapt.

I'm with you, Sisters! You are the best example of what Christianity has to offer to society.

Just stop, take a breath, and look at what those who hate religion are really up to....

We don't hate ANY religion. But what we do hate is narrow-minded, judgemental people who try to paint all those who don't believe as they do with a broad brush of ignorant generalizations. I would die fighting for your right to believe as you do, and yes, that includes hateful people like you. I'll never understand how so many people of such supposed strong faith can feel so insecure, threatened and victimized.

You do know that MSNBC is not a person you can label as a godless atheist, but rather a news network that represents millions of people of all stripes, lifestyles AND religions. Despite a few hours a day devoted to so-called liberal issues, MSNBC is a pretty mainstream cable news outlet, giving equal time to both sides. Maybe if you stopped buying into the Fox RW propaganda for just a moment, and took a look around, you might find that we all share the same concerns and love of God and country as you do.

Your partisan/religious hatred has blinded you.

The nuns of this country have doing what they are SUPPOSED to be doing, and that is helping the poor and the infirm. They are not responsible for judgement and condemnation. According to their religion, that is god's job. Though I am an atheist, I support any group of people who aids those who are in need, no matter who they are and what they have done.

" ... will be offering room and board to one of them when the Vatican closes their convents. ... "

If they are "good Christians", yes the will. But is there such a thing as a "good Christian"? We will see just how many there are in America if the Convents are closed.

Or should I say ....

We will see just how FEW "good Christians" there are....

Alessa
Beautiful post.

Thank you!

Bruce said:

Their attitude now is one of rebellion against the organization they volunteered to serve.

No. They did not volunteer to 'serve an organization.' THEY VOLUNTEERED TO SERVE GOD.

If God has a problem with how they have chosen to spread His message then let Him tell them. As He hasn't sent any bolts of lightning or plagues of frogs or biblical floods down on the nuns, one can assume He's fine with how they've chosen to interpret His directives!!

" ... If it's OK for Nuns to publicly criticize those in authority whom they have taken a vow to obey, ... "

Their "vow" is to God. Not to the church. Not to the Pope. Nor the Bishops or Cardinals. But to God, and God alone. And I do not see God "smiting" these Nuns. And isn't God the "only" authority?

But I do see the men of the Church, thinking that THEY are God.

So who is it that God will be judging poorly? Not the Nuns I think. But those that take unto themselves that which belongs only to God. Judgement.

Actually, if we had women in leadership from the beginning, we would be in this "hell in a handbasket" position that we are in now. I'm not saying men, in general, are unfit to rule, to the contrary.. however, so are women and the balance set to our (yes, I'm male) testosterone shaded glasses would have probably saved millions...

blog ReadingThinkingAndWriting com

Amanda-2017567 "If God has a problem with how they have chosen to spread His message then let Him tell them."

And if the Catholic Church excommunicates the feminists that are leading this revolt and God has a problem with it, we'll let Him tell them.

Seriously Roy? Feminists? Because they choose to care for the poor and needy instead of spout rhetoric about abortion and birth control? Really? Of course, a man like you, who clearly believes that any woman who isn't obeying a man must be a feminist, just like the Pope and all of his cardinals and bishops.

Roy Wilson said:

And if the Catholic Church excommunicates the feminists that are leading this revolt and God has a problem with it, we'll let Him tell them.

Unless you believe that God gave each of us free will and told us that He would decide when we meet him whether we were wrong or right.

Or unless there is no God.

The elephant in the room that's being ignored is the fact that the average age of these nuns in this organization is hovering around 70, and none of their orders are receiving members to replace them. Some have stopped seeking any. They have ten, twenty - tops - years left before they're whittled down to paltry numbers. My cousin belongs to an order that, back in the '60's, had well over a thousand members. Today, it is down to less than a hundred and about half of them are either "retired" or "semi-retired." All the schools, hospitals and nursing homes they once owned, operated, headed and staffed have been turned over to lay people. Most the buildings at their motherhouse are either rented out or have been sold off. It once had a huge Lourde's shrine with waterfalls and an interior cave chapel. Today, it's a parking lot for a bank. Whether one does or does not support these nuns, the fact is that they are vanishing and will eventually become just a place in the history book of the catholic religion.

Net worth is not equal to self worth... self worth is derived from what you give to the benefit of the lives of others, freely of your own will, and relative to what you are capable of giving.

Darwin only saw part of the picture... survival of the fitest system may be a component, but it was those times when life reached out for life (mitochondria) that life really advanced. Remember the biggest and the baddest; the dinosaurs? Well, that's all you can do is remember them... our ancestors found places to survive and it is reason, compassion, and love that have ruled out.

These nuns have NOT publicly criticized the Church or the Pope. They have been doing God's work among the disenfranchised for many years. Their written statement in no way violates Church teachings. But the Church hierarchy has decided the nun's efforts are not focused where they want them to be (ie, on hot-button political issues that are popular with donors). The nuns are not out advocating for gay marriage - they are working with those devastated by HIV and Aids and seek compassionate care for them. They are not advocating abortion - but they do believe that caring for children AFTER they are born is also important. They see pro-life issues as including fighting hunger, ensuring access to health care, providing services to the mentally ill. The Church hierarchy would rather they just stand in "life chains" opposing abortion and not fighting for humane treatment for ALL people. If that's a sin - then power to the sinners!

As I recall, Jesus spoke much and often about helping the poor, ill and less fortunate. I don't recall him saying anything about gay marriage, abortion or contraception. If the function of the church is to promote living life according to the teachings of Jesus, who is actually doing that? The nuns or the Vatican?

Bruce-308647 had this to say:

The nuns volunteered to put themselves under the church and forsake a "normal" life in order to do so. Their attitude now is one of rebellion against the organization they volunteered to serve. I believe if they can't support the church's teachings and requirements, then they should quietly step aside and quit trying to tear down the church. They are hurting the organization they pledged their lives to and using the support of the world to pit themselves against the church. I am not catholic and I am know I am in the minority, but when you join a group voluntarily knowing what they believe, then it's up to YOU (not the organization) to adapt.

It is nice to see that Roy Wilson has some company amongst the uninformed.

There are different groups of people who are affiliated with the Catholic church. Some fall under the authority of the Vatican, and some do not. There are a number of Catholic churches which are not under the authority of the Vatican. Some are very large--such as the Eastern Orthodox church--and some are as small as a single congregation (such as the St. Mary Magdalene Community)--and some are quite small organizations such as the American Catholic Church (which is not under the authority of the Vatican).

Quite a few monastaries and other such organizations do not operate under the umbrella of the Vatican, even if their membership is largely Roman Catholic. There is nothing stopping these women from choosing to leave any organization that is controlled by the Vatican and re-forming under their own authority. Though the Vatican could the rather stupid path of choosing to excommunicate them for doing something that is completely within their right--because one can choose to leave the priesthood or sisterhood if one wants, but still be Roman Catholic. Well, the Vatican can excommunicate them. They'll look pretty stupid, but they can do it.

Priests choose to leave the priesthood all the time--to get married, to get a job where they can make more money--because they just tire of all the political silliness. They can continue to do good work if they like.

Remember that it is unlikely that most of the sisters are actually supported by the Vatican. They probably have to earn their own money, pay their own bills, and organize themselves. The Vatican is not very supportive of nuns, though the Vatican is keen on demanding their subservience. If the given order owns its own buildings (and it kind of depends on how the deeds are made out), then the whole order can sever ties with the Vatican, even if the sisters all remain Roman Catholic.

If the sisters choose to affiliate themselves with, for example, the American Catholic Church or the Episcopalian church--they can do so. It is probable that some will lose the buildings that they currently occupy--but not all of them will. Some nuns actually occupy buildings that they own in their own names. Since there are fewer nuns than there used to be, it is likely that the displaced nuns can be rehoused in the buildings that are independently owned by other orders of nuns.

I'm a little more worried about their retirement and health care funds--as long as those aren't under the control of the Vatican (and they might not be, depending on how the structure was set up), then they should be okay. But, yes, the nuns are free to do what they want. Remember that they are not priests. It really does matter.

Nuns belong to service organizations--those service organizations can choose to realign themselves as independent if they want to (depending on how the paperwork has been set up) and/or the nuns can choose to leave the sisterhood and reform as a different voluntary organization.

They understand what they are doing--you don't. They don't have to submit to the authority of the person that the pope puts over them if they don't want to. Very few American Catholics actually follow the teachings of the Vatican anyway--it's about time that they chose to leave. I think that the American Catholic Church or the Episcopalian Church are both good organizations for people to consider--and it sounds like the nuns are very seriously considering simply severing relations with the Vatican professionally while remaining Roman Catholic by faith.

The Vatican cannot stop them. They can excommunicate the nuns if they want to--but that will probably drive a lot of American Catholics out, also. Remember that many nuns testified AGAINST the priests who were pedophiles. In many cases, it was the nuns who encouraged people to file suit. The exposure of the abuse of children in the church could not have happened without the nuns. This is an effort to punish the nuns for the actions they took against the hierarchy, costing the hierarchy many millions of dollars--it is just being dressed up as an effort to quench "radical feminism."

Seriously--if anyone is dumb enough to buy that line, I have very little hope for them.

As a non-believer of organized religion, because of all of the horrible atrocities it has created over history, I must say that I am impressed with this particular order of women. In the fairy tale called the bible, this guy, who was born into poverty, and yet was the son of a god, went around helping the poor and needy, and even feasted with the "bad guys". Now, this mega-church has a bunch of men dressed up in royal like clothing, living in a palace.

On the other hand, this mega-church has women who have sacrificed all in order to serve the sick, poor and down trodden, and live in impoverished conditions. And these royal men criticize these down trodden heroes. SICK, SICK. SICK.

As a side track, while living in Mexico for 9 years, I had sex with more than 6 priests in bath houses. All hail the holy cathartic church.

It is nice to see that Roy Wilson has some company amongst the uninformed.

Did you ever notice how some people can't make their point before first calling the other person stupid? I don't understand why they always feel the need to do this, but they simply can't help themselves.

So... the sisters decide to do the actual work of God, IE, helping the poor, humanitarian aid, things like that... and the Vatican pitches a fit. Meanwhile, they want them to spread fear and hatred and bring up 1st world problems, like being gay, contraception, etc, instead of helping their fellow men.

I think I know why the Pope rides around in that bubblecar, so God can't smite him with a lightning bolt.

The Vatican leaders are corrupt and only care about power over the people.

Actually, I believe the nuns have the ability to reconstruct the Church, if the old men in charge would let them. Change is refreshing for a stale religion - it would bring people back and bring in new members.

The Vatican should be afraid, very afraid.

~ C NJ Mom, former Catholic

THIS!!!! The time is right for American Catholics and ex-Catholics to form a new church. The American Catholic Church. Females welcome as priests and in the hierarchy. Less emphasis on man-made rules and regulations and more focus on helping others as Jesus taught. I pray these wonderful women will continue to do go and speak truth to corrupt and evil power known as the Vatican.

While I'm not Catholic and have a list of objections about various Catholic policies, I've always respected their nuns. I may not understand their blind faith that lead them onto their chosen path, but they have consistently tried to "walk the walk" instead of just trying to "talk the talk" like so many other religious figures.

I'm really happy that the nuns are standing up for themselves. Their charity and involvement in the community has been reliably positive. It will be very interesting to see if they under up reforming the Catholic faith or even creating a splinter sect faith similar to other Protestant leaders in the past couple of centuries.

Mormon is another example of a religion that wants women to be put in their places while the men get free pass for their immoral ways.

I love how the nuns are being called rebels as if it is sometihng to be ashamed of. The bible clearly made jesus out to be a rebel as well. These nuns seem to be in good company.

The Vatican should be afraid, very afraid.

Well I think they are. That's what this is all about. I read an article a few months ago about how Rome had almost given up on American Catholics. They just weren't falling into lock-step the way Rome wanted them to.

Which is why the Vatican has been sending more and more priests to Africa where there already is a culture of men over women...perfect for them...the US has never been very good at following rules without any debate...the nuns should run the New Church truly after Jesus's teachings, unlike the current Vatican

First off, kudos to NBC News for doing a one-sided story. Don't want to include any voices that disagree with the nuns now, do we? And let's not actually read the Vatican report, which praises at no end the nuns work with the poor, etc. The issue here, purse and simple, is that some of the leadership (and note I did not say overall membership) of this group has consistently, for years, gone public against long-standing Church teaching ... loudly and publicly. The Vatican - which formed and funds the group, by the way ... also not noted in the story ... has had plenty of dialogue with this leadership on the issue, letting them know that their very public position not only goes against Church teaching, but has caused confusion among Catholics on Church teaching since in their position, they "represent" the Church here in America. I love nuns - was taught by them, and even have a relative who is a novice in an order ... but it is not their job to determine the Faith. If they would like to discuss the Faith, as they proclaim, there are plenty of ways to do it, without publicly confusing Catholics. But that might not be the real agenda here, is it?

Val Veeta such a church exist already... Episcopal.

Mr. Ed you are correct, I left the L.D.S. so my daughters wouldn't be a possession to any man.

Spider you are a male who feel the women are there for all your earthly needs. By the way I am not a liberal woman, I am a 6'5 250# male and I love what these sisters are doing. By the way these Sisters are not destroying the Church/Faith, the men of the church have done a good enough job with that.

News again, the Church cares less about the teachings of Christ. These Sisters are performing the works of Christ on a daily basis, providing food to the poor, medicines to the sick and praying for the dying, what has the Holy Father done or one of the Cardinals in any of the Diocese?

Keep up the good work Sisters and you will be rewarded... God Bless!

spider

They want the church to change at the drop of a hat,

The hat was dropped hundreds of years ago. It's about time to do something with that hat. Other then to cover-up some of their dirty little secrets.

Mich - Sure don't want to confuse Catholics, no siree! No thinking for yourself allowed. Follow orders or burn in hell forever!

Ed, you've pretty much summed up Western religion in general. I was raised Catholic and saw pretty quickly how what was said IN Church was disreguarded once outside the doors.

News - Chill out, my goodness. He's allowed to state his opinion too.

Just because these principals were established 2000 years ago doesnt mean squat. Things/people/attitudes change. Nothing survives without change/adaptation of some sort. And more importantly - what exaclty have these nuns done that is so wrong? Does feeding the hungry make you angry? Does helping others just tick you off or what? I think you need to ask yourself these questions instead of just following blindly because that's how its been done in the past.

I am a woman and I am LDS. Just for the record - I have never felt mistreated in the church. In fact its the other way around - they teach our men to love and respect their wives at all times. If you didn't that to your wife or daughters then don't blame the church blame the individual.

There is no reason why the nuns should be forced to leave the church. They are not out of step with church teachings.

Where does it say in the Catechism that Catholics need be outspoken on matters of abortion, contraception, or Gay marriage? The nuns are celebate. They are not out having abortions or aiding women in obtaining them. They are not using birth control or handing it out to others. They are not participating in marriages with other women or performing them. They have simply chosen to focus their energies on other equally Catholic endevours. Social justice, caring for the sick and infirm, acts of charity.... All are righteous persuits that the male clergy should well do more of. What the bishops and Cardinals need to remember is that the hand of God works in mysterious ways. I see a lot of corruption in the church at the highest levels. It is not rebellious to want those who twist the doctrine of the faith to suit their political and personal agendas removed. If God chooses to use the women religious to highlight the depravity of the higher orders of Catholic Clergy, then so be it. After all, it wouldn't be the first time he chose a woman to deliver a message. John 20:11-18 would be a good refresher for the Catholic clergy who claim that Jesus had not intended that women be used to spread the Gospel.

If you don't like the teachings of the Church than leave. Find another religion that fits you. Maybe the nuns can find another religion that will pick up their tab while they bash and go against their teachings.

You dont need to join a church to be a good person. If anything, its makes it harder.

The nuns are still doing the same thing they've done for decades- helping others. It's those in charge that are wanting them to get into politics, which has nothing to do with their vows, and shouldn't have anything to do with the Church.

News98

Doesn't attend any school either. oh wait, does home schooling count?

News98 said;

The Catholic Churhc, established by Jesus Christ's disciples , has just been struggling to make ends meet for the LAST 2,000 years.

The Vatican posted a 9.8 million surplus for 2010. In the middle of the worst global economy ever.

Struggling to make ends meet while wearing linen robes, sitting in palaces with gold and jewels and riding around in chauffered bulletproof vehicles?

Don't we come down pretty hard on people who claim welfare while driving a Mercedes or Cadillacs?

Wow, News98 is a nun hating misogynist. The nuns are doing God's work, the RCC is protecting pedophiles and their wealth. The nuns are doing the right thing, the church is NOT. If there was a hell the nuns won't be there, but the others in the church would.

@ Mr Ed-1446743 "Mormon is another example of a religion that wants women to be put in their places while the men get free pass for their immoral ways."

Mr Ed, your ignorance is staggering, and your hatred is boundless....This is a complete lie, and you sir, are a bald-face liar. Period.

I too think we should start an American Catholic Church. I have decided this summer to leave the church-after 54 years of being Catholic- a cradle Catholic - and 13 years of Catholic school. I have sung at Mass since I was 7. I have been head of the parish council, the youth group and have taught religious education. I have had enough. You attack the nuns and you attack the very heart of the church and you attack the women I have proudly served side by side with at soup kitchens, medical clinics and homeless shelters. Very rarely do I ever see a priest come out of the rectory and truly serve the poor and those in need. I can no longer be a part of an unholy institution that is so mysogynist that they attack the most holy of their parts- the nuns.

I am with you Sisters- I have my "I support the nuns" sticker on the bumper of my car. I now give all my money I was giving to my parish to development funds for the nuns (or didn't you know the Catholic church told them they would no longer support them financially, medically and physically!) I can't be angry when I am at Mass and for the past several years with every letter from Cardinal Egan and Dolan, I just got more angry. It is just not worth it. I will serve the Lord in other ways, but not with the ROMAN Catholic church.

Where do I sign up for the new church?

" ... Dont like Catholics? Then leave their church alone. ... "

I will. Just as soon as they leave me alone. Just as soon as they stop trying to convert me. Just as soon as they stop judging me.

But that isn't going to happen is it.

I agree that it is admirable to fight for what you believe in, the same can be said for faithful Catholics who fight to uphold the age-old traditions of the faith. You would have to agree that a priest who molests a child is not forgiven his sins simply because he does other worthwhile things, like helping to feed the hungry. The same can be said about the nuns. Simply because they engage in acts of charity does not mean that we should look the other way when they profess opinions in direct contrast to the teachings of their faith. If you were to join a basketball team and claim that dribbling is an ancient practice that you believe should be changed - you might want to find another sport because the ref is going to blow the whistle on you for traveling! The truth is the truth. For over 2000 years, 2+2=4 and for over 2000 years Earth has been round, not flat as was once the prevailing opinion. The truth is the truth no matter how many years may pass. If one believes that the Catholic faith was established by the word of God (which Catholics believe) then it matters not how many people disagree. God's word does not depend on the opinions of certain groups, countries, faiths, etc. God's word is yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It is unchanging - and that IS refreshing!

Am I saying that Catholics are always right? Not as individuals - we are human. And to be human is to err. Everyone (especially those who dissent from the faith) will readily remember the crusades - yes, it's true - we as humans make mistakes, but God DOES NOT. He has promised that whatever tribulations the Church endures or however we might misinterpret His word - His Church will remain standing.

You may or may not believe in the Word of God - or the Catholic faith, and that is A GREAT GIFT FROM GOD - FREE WILL! But I, for one, can tell you from my own personal experience that the immense sense of peace, happiness and utter joy that comes from following my Catholic faith and loving Christ Jesus is nothing short of life-changing and beautiful. It makes suffering bearable and even meaningful, it intensifies happiness and transforms your reality. I am a Catholic woman who is indebted to a faith that celebrates my fertility by not trying to suppress it with artificial contraception. I am a Catholic woman who revels in the fact that every child conceived in the haven of a womb is a miracle of life. My peace and happiness is not contingent on whether or not others agree with me. My soul rests in the merciful, forgiving, loving hands of God the father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. AMEN.

Spiritual Battle said:

You would have to agree that a priest who molests a child is not forgiven his sins simply because he does other worthwhile things, like helping to feed the hungry.

Actually, according to the Catholics, all you have to do is be repentant and accept God as your Savior and you're forgiven all your sins. So a priest who molests children will go to heaven--right along with his victim--because he's accepted God as his Savior. Does God segregate heaven so that a child victim never has to see his molester?

Simply because they engage in acts of charity does not mean that we should look the other way when they profess opinions in direct contrast to the teachings of their faith.

Er. No. The nuns have been doing nothing different than what they have been doing for all of christian history. the Vatican wants them to get involved in the sociopolitial situation and decry homosexuality and birth control and abortions.

And while you're talking about that...Monsignor Corrado Balducci, a theologian member of the Vatican Curia (governing body), and an insider close to the Pope, has gone on Italian national television multiple times to proclaim that extraterrestrial contact is a real phenomenon.

If one believes that the Catholic faith was established by the word of God (which Catholics believe) then it matters not how many people disagree. God's word does not depend on the opinions of certain groups, countries, faiths, etc. God's word is yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It is unchanging - and that IS refreshing!

It's not unchanging. Years ago, a group of Christian elders (The Council Of Nicaea) got together over 8000 scrolls of Christian teachings, picked out the ones they liked, put those together in a book, and called it the Bible and The Unchanging Word Of God. The ones they didn't like were designated 'the forbidden books and sealed in the Vatican archives, never to be seen.

In the Old Testament days, it was OK for the family patriarch to lie with his handmaiden in order to get with child if his wife couldn't bear. If you got cancer of the uterus and couldn't bear children, would you let your husband have sex with the maid so he could have kids? It's allowed in the Bible. The New Testament changed that and said "Nope, sorry, can't do that anymore." Used to be a sin to eat shellfish, wear clothes made with two different fibers, and plant two different crops on the same field. It used to be a sin to get divorced. Now it's not.

I am a Catholic woman who is indebted to a faith that celebrates my fertility by not trying to suppress it with artificial contraception.

My religion celebrates fertility, too. "All acts of love and pleasure are my gifts." However, one also has to be responsible for your resources and not produce more children than your Mother, the Earth, can sustain. And She gave us remedies for that too, which occur naturally and which are the basis for the man-made medicines. So while She gave us fertility, She also gave us natural means to be responsible about it.

And so did your God.

Amanda-2017567 - well said! Thank you!

Amanda-

I am a Catholic woman who is indebted to a faith that celebrates my fertility by not trying to suppress it with artificial contraception.

My religion celebrates fertility, too. "All acts of love and pleasure are my gifts." However, one also has to be responsible for your resources and not produce more children than your Mother, the Earth, can sustain. And She gave us remedies for that too, which occur naturally and which are the basis for the man-made medicines. So while She gave us fertility, She also gave us natural means to be responsible about it.

That's one rule that I really disagree with. I think it's more important to be responsible and only have as many kids as you can care for with the time and resources you have. If God really wants me to have another child, I will, no matter what preventative measures I take.

I was conceived the very first time my mom had sex, my sisters are the result of my mom not being told antibiotics cancel out the pill. Once sister has a son conceived while she was on the birth control shot, and another sister just had a little girl after being told she likely wouldn't be able to get pregnant again (endometriosis/cysts). Everything has a failure rate, even if used perfectly. Even abstinance failed one time, oh, about 2000 years ago.

News - why are you "quote" "marking" so "often"? And what the heck are you even talking about? Just because you used words that someone else did in a post does not tie the two together. And I think its really odd that you keep making up imaginary conversations with people, ya weirdo.

News just calling your spew the truth does not make it true. Your "let them go they are not doing what they are suppossed to" attitude is soooooooo far from the teachings of Christ it would be laughable if not so sad. Jesus taught forgiveness, charity and to love your neighbor which is everything the nuns do and everything the hierarchy of the church does not. Jesus NEVER taught anything about homosexulaity. He NEVER taught anything about discriminating against any group or person. He actually said I give you one new commandment that you should hold above all others LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF and he did not attach any subcatagories such as unless they are gay or unless they are liberal or anything else. Your perverted view of his teachings dont fly in the modern age. You hate and rail against all those without your opinion, Christ must be so proud of you...

And News, a great many people have already left the RC church. There are major issues with churches being closed and sold due to the need for more money (really?) and poor attendance. The few remaining parish members have camped out in these churches to try to prevent their closure and sale. Priests are at a premium, many of them handling more than one parish. (Actually, considering the hush money that's been paid to abuse victims over the years, I can see why they'd need to sell some real estate...)

So let's take you at your word - if a person sees a problem with the way their church is run and the way that they perceive it should be run, then they can join the Anglicans. Or the Unitarians. Or just not go - indeed, a vast amount of people already just go to Xmas & Easter mass and not weekly. The church as we know it is not immersing itself in peoples' lives and problems as it should. It's still run by autocrats who accept church doctrine as gospel. Guess what...it isn't gospel. It's man made rules.

I'm glad that you find the 1950's church comforting but am dismayed that you can't accept change as in Vatican II. The church will need to evolve without relinquishing it's basic values or it will die on the vine. And really? Women should just be happy with their 2nd class status in the church? That's how you lose women...and women raise the next generation.

News, encouraging them to be disobedient? They are only telling the nuns to obey their conscience. It seems to be a better moral compass than you or the vatican seem able to provide.

News "98" --- I "love" your "quote marks". You're so sassy. You go Honey Boo Boo child. You "tell" them how "great" the pedo-supporting bishops and cardinals are and how "bad" the nuns are. "Tell 'um, Suga, Tell 'um." How dare nuns think for themselves and "attend" to Jesus' "business". Nuns should be doing what they are told by the hierarchy, not "following" the "teachings" of "Jesus". Right? Is that their supposed crime?

There are far too many people "coming out" now about what really goes on before, during and after choir practice; there's even a documentary about Priests, and "Why" they couldn't help themselves." This documentary was on HBO, I think, about a month ago or when this story of the Nuns first hit the internet discussion.

"News 98's" message was collapsed but judging by what some of the other comments are, I'm wondering if maybe he is a "Closet Priest"?

JMagnum, everytime I read one of News 98s posts, I can hear the double-snaps and the work-it girl. Either News 98 is a female, or has a drag queen style. "If you don't like it -- leave" You go, girl. Oh know you didnt.

It comes down to being judgmental. The nuns, while recognizing the sins, will NOT condemn the sinner. The pope has taken the position of morality judge. Yes, the sins are to be condemned. But, in true Christ-like fashion, the nuns practice "Love thy Neighbor...." and "Do unto Others...".

" ... nuns to continue to be disobedient ... "

Just who are they being disobedient to? To God? Or to the Church? And no the two are not the same.

Or are they being disobedient to men? Men who crave power. Men who crave wealth. Men with attitudes like yours that are not very Christ like.

These are people doing Gods work. They are not being political like the men of the church are. They care not about what you are. They care only about your soul. And that as children of God that you do not suffer. They are following the teachings of Christ. Not judging and condemning others as the men of the church are.

They are doing their best to help their fellow man. Not usurping Gods authority, buy condemning and judging.

And I suspect that on judgement day, when standing at the gates of heaven. You will find that these people will not be standing in line with you. Waiting for their turn to enter. But that you will find that they will have instant access. For they will truly have done Gods work. While people like you only provide lip service.

Wow - News98: Your anger is ASTOUNDING!

You can love God and not love the church. There is even a similarly titled book. They should run from the Vatican like scalded cats. I can only surmise that those who have studied the history of the Catholic Church (Vatican and the popes) are so blinded by their faith and zeal that they do not see the hypocrisy on display.

News98's post demonstrates nicely the illogical behavior and blind, slavish adherence to doctrine of the catholic church I have come to know and despise. It's incoherent teeth-grinding, foam-mouthed spewing against what that person seems to feel most threatened by--transparency and fairness. I don't know that the Vatican hates women--but it surely keeps trying to make second-class citizens of them. The nuns just want justice and respectful treatment, but some catholic traditionalists apparently cannot accept that the medieval mindset of the Vatican must change or be discarded for one that actually practices the words of Christ. For me, this is just a lovely example of the rotting, corrupt body of the traditional catholic church finally being seen for what it is, outdated, dead, and long overdue for a replacement.

News 98, you are an easy person to dislike.

New 98.

Your angry posts seem quite un-Christian, intolerant of others. Blind faith is just that blind and of little value. God did not put us on this earth and give us brains then tell us not to use them.

The church has changed in the past and needs to update itself now. Remember when Mass was said in Latin? But sometimes change happens from the ground up not from the top down.

For supposedly being a "good" Catholic, you sure seem to be full of hate and bitterness News98. And what have YOU done today to help someone?

News98

So um if the colonials were obedient, I guess you would be defending the Queen of England right now. But you would have to thank those pesky rebels, because they wrote a constitution that allows you to say what ever you like. Oh well, if there weren't people like you, there wouldn't be a need for those to oppose people like you.

Blind faith is rather scary. Those are the people who kill because God told them to. Or the ones who take the Bible literally as actual fact. Or will vote for a politican because they don't believe in choice, no matter what their other issues are. Or they will magically float to the sky, away from the sinners. But Blind Faith wasn't a bad band.

YIKES! daryl -- as a Jew, I do not claim News98 as one of the tribe.

" ... as a Jew, I do not claim News98 as one of the tribe. ... "

And as a human, I'm not sure that I want to claim that he is of my tribe either.

News98 being someone who makes little to no sense, I'm sure he's not part of my tribe either.

daryl, I completly spaced that Presence of the Lord was on that album.Talk about coincidence and the subject of this thread. Yeah pretty good album. But from one fan to another, avoid the Hyde Park DVD.

Why anyone bothers with such an outdated and preposterous religion is beyond me.

"demi-governmental body"

Good one!

A few weeks ago, there was a Catholic program on t.v. at my Dad's place and the priest was talking about how the tennants of democracy are the only way to support hummanity (or something to that affect). Then I immediately thought how Vatican City, a nation-state, is a totalitarian government. "Demi-governmental body" indeed!

Actually, the church hierarch was spawned from the Roman Empire. Before the western Empire fell (and it happened over 100 years) bishops and anyone in a high position in the church, which was the state religion I(ROMAN Catholic), most often came from the senate. There were 2 means to achieve power in the empire - senate or church. This power structure survived the fall, around 476.

So those in power at the beginning were most often not priests. They were bureaucrats and indeed, still are. The church hierarchy has more to do with maintaining control over the flock than working to better the lives of their fellow man/woman.

Bernie didn't resign, he was let go from their protection, because they were not getting as much money as they used to from the Boston Diocese. They hid him when everyone wanted his head and now that those high powered guilty are mostly dead, they let his @$$ go. He should burn in He!! for what he did/didn't do along with the rest of the masogonists. What do you want with a church run by a bunch of white supremacists headed by an ex Nazi. Signed a Boston Irish Ex Catholic

THREE year study. So, just because he wasn't there the last year (officially) means he wasn't involved?

Unless he did finally get in trouble and was basically ostercized before his "resignation"?

Gerry Daley:

Your post is quite inaccurate. Cardinal Law turned 80 last year and holds absolutely
no positions in the Roman Curia due to his age. He was also replaced last year as the archpriest of Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore (the "palace" of which you speak).

Archbishop Peter Sartain of Seattle has been tasked by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) to rein in the radical, dissident nuns.

For what it's worth, this is about thirty years too late. You reap what you sow. To allow these Catholic (in name only) women, for decades, to openly oppose the Church's teaching on human sexuality and their
culture of radical feminism that is incompatible with the Faith is inexcusable.

They need to remember their vows of obedience or leave. Listen to the Magisterium or be anathematized. Remember, the CDF is not condemning ALL of the women religious in America, just a select few at the top of the LCWR. These old hippy chicks won't be missed one single bit as the majority of women coming to the vocations today are entering those orders under the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious, a more traditional organization dedicated to the authentic religious life.

Frankly all of the nuns should leave and either join other congregations or build their own. Should this happen, you will see the RC church totally collapse. The church needs these women and they know it.

Scrooge - It isn't the nuns that are incompatible with the faith. It is the faith that is incompatible with current times.

" ... feminists ... "

Yep, there is not hate in the way you use that word News. Just like there is no hate when you literally spit out the word liberal. I can almost see the intolerance in you face. I can almost hear the vitriol in your voice.

Deny it all you want. But those around you know the truth. Hate is not a Christian value. And you do HATE.

Law may have resigned, but he is tremendously influential in Rome. Resignation means no longer actively working, not no longer influential. He has had great impact and influence on the Vatican's recent actions against the nuns. Heard directly from a relative of mine who is connected to the Vatican that Law is powering this push. Resigned? Yes. Retired? Hardly.

world.idiocracy

Scrooge - It isn't the nuns that are incompatible with the faith. It is the watered down faith that is incompatible with current times.

Truth is Truth and it transcends time and space. The Gospel message Christ Jesus doesn’t change from 33 AD to 2012AD. The "current times" are incompatible with The Faith.

What examples from the "current times" should we except?

No the church does not need to live in the"Now." The same issues that you think are new are as old as the Earth. Sin is sin. Jesus never condoned sin. He told the prosititute to sin no more. He did not go out and buy her a better bed so that she would be more comfortable while she sinned. He did not say well everyone is doing it so it must be right. While he did teach compassion for those have gone astray, he did not say to help them to continue the behavior. Forgiveness is not meant to wipe the slate clean so you can fill it up with filth again. It is meant to let you start again and move in the right direction.

"The same issues that you think are new are as old as the Earth"

Clearly you don't understand that the New Testament is a moment of "now" compared to the Old Testament. If change happened before, why can't it happen again?

SS what about the "better to spill your seed into the belly of a whore than on the ground."?

People fall short of glory everyday, that is why we make ammends to god. These sisters realise this unlike the almighty Holy Father who thinks he should wear Proda shoes why kids are starving all over the world. If he was really a god following man he would sale the Vatican and start going about preaching the word of God as the Disciples were taught.

He's not a God following man, he's an ex Nazi who should never have been elected to a real church. Obviously these men have too much power and money and not enough common sense. Nuns have quietly done the churches work throughout history, they are Christ's real decipels not these pedophile priests running around in the new cars every year, drinking on the job and molesting children.

If the Catholic Church does not agree with public funds being used for abortion or birth control, then the Catholic Church needs to give up it's 501C status, not accept vouchers, and refuse Medicare and Medicaid at their Catholic Hospitals. If they do that then I am good with their refusal of allowing women to control their own destiny.

Rod-- Why? If these hospitals go away who will cover the expenses. You really think Medicaid covers the actual bills? Then you sir are an idiot. Most of the money for a Medicaid patient is paid by the provider. Without such hospitals your liberal institutions will collapse. The donations they receive provide for those not well off and with Medicare receiving a huge cut because of Obama care, only donation supported hospitals will be able to handle these people. It obvious Rod that you hate the poor and probably one of the 1% posing as a 99%er.

Tens of millions of former Catholics agree with you south1 and have left the Church in this country alone.

SS,

You obviously over estimate your intelligence. It's not what you dont know that bothers me, it is what you know that just isnt so which causes me indigestion.

If catholics want to tell people how to live their lives, they need to clean house. Put the pedophile priests in prison, give up their public funds, pay out to the people they have harmed over the years, or shut the hell up.

@ SS-1519577: Let's not pretend that the Catholic medical facilities don't receive financial assistance from the government already.

SS - are you familiar with the history of the Catholic Church? For many centuries non believers WERE executed.

SS you better be careful of what you wish for. The nuns leave and the catholic church goes away.

Oh yeah...isn't that nice to know? But the Vatican heirarchy sucks and blows at both ends.

First requiring complete devotion from its parishioners that want to serve it. Brow beating it's little girl nuns while hiding the little bad boy priests that exploit its most vulnerable charges. For the priests, they get mercy and forgiveness for committing heinous sexual sins. For the nuns, they get no mercy for simply questioning the faith they adhere to.

Second, the Vatican deifies Mary, the original disciple and Mother of Christ, yet can't seem to remember that even she questioned her son in Cana. They cannonize Mother Theresa, yet threw so many curveballs at her mission...she just took them all and threw them back, and for all the right reasons.

I'm seeing a pattern here of bad little boys and strong little women...and guess what? The full name of the Cathoic church means universal. If loving God, Jesus, and helping your fellow man is Catholism, then I'm in....if it is made up of ridiculous rules, forget it.

What would Jesus do? What would Mother Theresa do? What would Mary do?

Texas pam, Jesus would not recognize today's Church.

Sure he would. He'd see it as an adaptation by the Roman Empire. Change some deity names, tweak the orgin stories, new outfits, modernize the songs, change the preferred sacrificial animal, viola. Just like the Moses era switch from Bull-based religions to Ram-based ones.

Texas pam: I know what I did after a Catholic upbringing in a school taught by nuns.........I left and do not donate a cent to these child molesting, money grubbing priest led by some phony guy in Rome that lives in luxury while others starve.

princess, you are not welcome in the Church. You think for yourself and that's not allowed.

"Thinking for yourself" is spelled LIBERTARIAN, not LIBERAL.

Galileo was imprisoned, and then sentenced to house arrest for the remainder of his life, for defying the church by not refuting Copernicus' theory that the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the other way around.

From the early days of the printing press, authors, printers, and booksellers were imprisoned or executed for disseminating works that were on the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum", the list of books the Catholic church officially banned. Such heretical works as writings by scientists such as Rene Descartes and Blaise Pascal, theologians like Martin Luther and John Calvin, philosophers Sartre and Kant, and many others were on the list. The list continued to be updated until 1948, and was only officially revoked in 1966.

And then there are some of the darkest days of the church - the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Thankfully the church has grown and evolved (or so we thought until the recent sex scandals). It is NOT the same institution it was in the year 500, 1000, or 1500. Nothing can remain stagnant.

These nuns are NOT out defying church teachings. They are, however, focusing on what causes many of the ills of society, rather than sitting back in richly appointed churches and issuing edicts. These nuns are on the front lines with the disenfranchised, and want focus on ways to make peoples lives better. The church hierarchy would do well to listen and be compassionate, rather than oblivious and dictatorial.

@news98 - maybe it's that no one can make sense of your comments. You speak of Terry Gross and Fresh Air as being liberal. Then you call her prideful. Then you say pride is a good thing for a Catholic (I'm reading sarcasm here, but since I obviously have no reading skills I could be wrong).

I won't deny that NPR tends liberal. And Fox news tends conservative. Terry Gross gave both sides a chance to speak their piece, which is more than Fox usually does.

But I'm still puzzled over your comments which seem to imply Terry Gross is a prideful Catholic. It was clear in the interviews that she is not an expert on Catholic teachings (no interviewer can be an expert on every subject). But that wasn't surprising considering she is Jewish (don't know if she's practicing or not, but her family is Jewish).

I still would like to hear someone in the Church hierarchy give a reasoned answer to the question that was originally asked by the nun, which was why women can run schools, universities, and hospitals but are not fit to be part of the church hierarchy. You can slam Fresh Air all you want for being liberal, it doesn't take away the legitimacy of the question, or the utter lack of the Bishop to provide a better answer than "Because it's always been that way and because we men say so."

" .. But no one can read. ... "

Maybe not. But we can comprehend. And we understand what you are saying and mean very well.

Maybe she is already a woman?????

Orginally, Mother Nature was. Then the guys figured out the power play and discredited their pagan roots.

I was raised catholic. Today I am a recovering catholic. As a youngster I never understood the fear and intimidation factor that was present. Do this otherwise you will be punished for eternity. Never understood why we should fear someone that was suppose to be so nice.

Bobby -- you are so wrong. Christ never preached forgive and help those sinners continue their lifestyle. Maybe if you read the Bible you would see that there is a big difference between the christ of the mass media and the Christ of Heaven. We should help our bretheren sin no more. Not with superiority but with compassion because we too sin. Helping others go astray is not what Jesus would do.

SS the anal literate thinks he knows what JESUS would do, LOLOLOLOLOLOL

SS-151577 -- What is it that the Nuns are doing that are helping people continue in their sins? How are they helping others go astray?

What truth?

Please, reread a lot of the posts here and you will see how far we are from Jesus

Well, maybe if the only ones we read are yours, we'd get that impression. Fortunately, there are others here who put Jesus' teachings ahead of Paul's and the current Pope's wishes.

Tell us, News, did Jesus tell the Pope to look the other way while children were being sodomized by priests?

SS-151577- If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” (1John 1:9) Now these women are out teaching the word of god, there is only one unforgiven sin and that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I have read my bible, more than once. Am I a good person..Yes. Have I sinned and done wrong? Many times and somethings that I have a hard time forgiving myself for. Do I pray? All the time and constantly for those things I have done that haunt me. I thank these women, I appreciate the Christ like attitude they carry. They did take vows to serve Christ, and without a doubt they do just that.

Rod, when I was in Catholic grade school, probably around '71/72, I had a nun ask me "Do you fear God"? I looked at her and said "No". She glared at me and asked "Why don't you fear God". I said "From what I understand, he's probably a nice guy". That was the end of the conversation. What could she do, deny that? I never got the whole "Love me, Fear me or burn in Hell" mentality. How is that supposed to work. Don't you get more flies with suger? (I know what else attracts flies. It comes out of the rearend of horses). I tossed in the towel as far as organized religion before I could drive.

" ... that we ignore truth ... "

Who's truth is being ignored? Please tell me the "truth". Not the truth as you see it. Not the truth as the church sees it. Not even the truth as I see it. But just the truth.

Please. Enlighten those of us that live in the dark. Bring us the light of the true truth.

Oh, and Gods truth only works if God shows up in person and tells it to me. Not some pompous buffon that sits on a golden throne and claims to be the right hand of God.

Christ, save me from your followers.

" ... Here's a clue. All posts here are trying to get everyone to agree with them. ... "

Here's a clue for you News. I really don't give a rastass if you agree with me or not. YOU are just not that special.

You may think you are. You may even think that your mother thinks you are. And she might. But you are not special.

And as to "getting" everyone to agree with me? Clue. I really don't care if ANY of them do or not. All I am trying to do is get a point out there that doesn't come from some ignorant, arrogant, fearful, hateful arsehole like you. Plain. Simple.

Damn officers.

The military version would be "just following orders." That has some bad outcomes too.

Only nuns not following their churches teachings? I have read of several priest who have impregnated women. And does the church teach these men to fondle children. We are not talking 18 year old maybe exploring sexuality, but men old men.

Rushless, while I approve of your comment, I don't believe for a moment that anyone in charge could have stopped what happened. It might not have been hidden and ignored for as long as it was, but as in the case with Penn State there are plenty of sickos out there laying prey on our children. Child abusers come in all shapes and sizes, and professions.

You're right, "rushless." It's just a Power thing. The Vatican turns a blind eye to their priests who sodomize and fondle innocent, young, trusting boys yet waste no time in publicly scolding their nuns. And for what? Look how long it took for the Vatican to finally admit that Mary Magdalene wasn't a prostitute, and admit that she really was the companion of Jesus.

The Vatican city probably still has torture chambers somewhere within it's walls, blocked off from the outside. Today, it's priests just steal away to quiet areas within their church's dressing rooms, libraries or wherever their choice of secrecy is to abuse children.

The Vatican should come clean on ALL it's dark secrets--the truth shall set them free.

Why does everybody assume you have to be part of a huge church to be a good person? Just be good all by yourself. The age of sky spirits is fading into the dustbin of history.

Agreed.

Sweet Equity- excellent observations and well-written, too. Thank you for adding a much needed perspective. Sadly, in my opinion, many in our society have embraced the authoritarian, punishing side of the equation in response to their fears about the changes in our complex world. When people are frightened about change, they often retreat into authoritarian beliefs because they think that insisting on rigid adherence to rules will stop change. It won't. But it will increase anger, fear, and mistrust. I think the fact that the nuns aren't adhering to rigid rules at a time when church leaders feel threatened by a complex world accounts for the vehemence of the Vatican's action against the Sisters. It's not just that the nuns aren't following Vatican rules- it's that by not following those particular rules the nuns are responding to a complex world by focusing on a set of religious values that seem to ignore the threats implied by change, instead focusing on the needs of people. I applaud the nuns for their commitment and courage, and their refusal to become regressive under pressure from the Vatican. "Change is mandatory; growth is optional."

If anyone thinks today's Catholic Church is capable of change, they are delusional.

If anyone thinks today's Catholic Church is capable of change, they are delusional.

The church hierarchy at the Vatican, the Pope and his officials, may not be capable of change, but the body of the church, it's members, certainly are.

JP2 once said he'd still follow the catholic way even if he were the last catholic. I heard of lot of dictators during the arab string saying essentially the same thing.

News before Vatican II the mass was for the priest, why do you think he done it in latin and back toward the congregation. The Stations of the Cross was present for the peasants in the pews. These women did not break their vows, the vows to the church means nothing. They follow the vows to serve God in a Christ manor.

News before Vatican II the mass was for the priest, why do you think he done it in latin and back toward the congregation. The Stations of the Cross was present for the peasants in the pews. These women did not break their vows, the vows to the church means nothing. They follow the vows to serve God in a Christ manor.

The church is not about change but of continuity and stability.

Are you familiar with history? at all?

I love the term spiritual. That usually means that they are self centered and holier than thou types without the fire and brimstone. They usually give the guilt trips worse than any Mediterranean Mother,

Yeah well SS, how does it feel to be wrong? In this case, at least, you are dead wrong.

SS go take a look in the mirror at a holier than thou attitude.

It continues to AMAZE me that religions are so slow to come to reality and present day. People are just now realizing that misogynist men created religions and all their rules against everyone except heterosexual males? This is precisely why they also cannot grasp giving equal rights to gay people. Religion is too crazy for words! Who should we oppress now? Who should we oppress next? Who can we pretend we are "better than". Simply running out of targets!

Let it go, religious folks! You are literally living in the dark ages with rules for the dark ages, made up by misogynistic, discriminatory men! Can we all say GROW UP?

News98 - Your "truth" has as much relation to reality as the Vatican has to Christ's teachings. No wonder Vatican II drove you nuts! But time to sign off now and go take your meds, then pack for your new job in Rome. Have fun with the boys in the dresses!

By the way, there are still cloistered nuns. They pray for people like you.

You might be right Lizzie, because he sure doesn't seem to care about women at all.

@news98 - hate is a strong word, and means more than simply disliking or disagreeing witih something. Show me where anything I said indicates a hatred of the Catholic Church. I disagree strongly with the position of those in charge at the Vatican when it comes to the nuns. That does not equate to hate. How unfortunate, and how blind, of you not to be able to distinguish the difference. Are you that threatened by those who upset your comfortable status quo?

We do agree on a couple of points. For example: "The religious life is not about doing what YOU WANT to do. It is about serving." Absolutely. But in this case, the Vatican is upset because the nuns are not serving the Vatican's position -- they are serving their fellow man and thru that, serving God. I vote for serving God.

Also, you said, "The nuns are to serve whatever order they signed to." Agreed. The nuns make their vows in a particular order, and those orders all have their own purpose and mission. For example, the Sisters of St. Joseph have this as their mission:

As Sisters of St. Joseph, our mission is that of the church: to continue the mission of Jesus given Him by His Father. It is our responsibility, both as congregation and as individuals within the church, to share the task of identifying and responding to spiritual and material needs...the expression of these needs varies with the times, cultures, and condition of persons. The congregation sends its member in the name of the church to share in building Christ's kingdom of justice, love, and peace through our charism of unity and reconciliation."

The "church" referenced in this mission is the Catholic Church, not the Vatican. There is a big difference and you should understand that if you claim to "understand what you are trying to discuss." The Vatican is not an order. So, yes -- the nuns and sisters (and did you know there's a difference between the two?) owe their obedience and service to their order. Not the Vatican.

Christ also disagreed with authority during His time on earth and told the apostles that they should not obey if authority's laws contravened God's laws. Seems to me that the nuns are following that dictum. Oh, and lest it has escaped your notice, Christ was a rebel. So I'd be careful about throwing that term around derogatorily if I were you - sounds as though you're saying that Christ was wrong for not following the established order.

It is common knowledge that the Church is becoming more politically active. For example, the group Catholic Answers is run with the permission of the San Diego diocese and appears in the Official Catholic Directory. They have published The Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics (give it a read - you'd love it); I mention that as evidence that the Church is condoning certain acts of political activism. And some bishops preached, during the 2008 election cycle, that voting for Obama would be a grave sin because of his pro-choice stand. The Vatican's emphasis on re-directing the nun's focus to support the Church hierarchy's positions rather than the serve the dictates of their orders is to bolster the politicism of the hierarchy. But living and preaching the faith is one thing, becoming political is different. To explain the difference and why the Church should not be political, I leave you with the words of the guy in the white pointy hat, the current pope, Benedict XVI:

“Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes not divine, but demonic.”

if you're going to discuss religion, maybe you should understand what you're discussing. what is God? it's all a matter of perspective. you want to think God is some guy sitting on a cloud with a sceptor in his hand just waiting to strike anyone who doesn't wear the right color of socks, then be my guest. i know, you don't believe that and if you ask a preacher if God is human they and i'm sure you would say no! of course not! but then, you turn around and give God all the attributes as humans, all the negative attitudes of humans and all the human failings we have. you make God nothing more than a roman myth, like Zeus, more human than divine.

so, if God isn't a man and not some mythical creature, then what is He? well, the Bible says it very clearly. "I am that I am. I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end." He appears always as one form of energy or another, never as a human except once, when we see what was supposedly God, but as a phantom person, not real. and when Jesus is resurrected He returns not as human but as a spirit. again and again he appears and then suddenly disappears before peoples' eyes. this isn't human. so, what is God? what is the realm of God? it's not the mythology that has been built up by thousands of churches around the world in every religion. so i won't tell you what God wants and how to live your life, and you please don't try and pretend that you have all the answers either. to quote a famous comedian, "i talk to God all the time and He never mentions your name."

now if you want to discuss the dogma of churches that were created by man and run by man then that's different. Jesus' ideas were hijacked by the roman emperor constantine who set himself up to be the returning christ. and the church took over and put its iron fist of control over the masses for no other reason than to make money and wield power and they have never stopped. the good works have been eclipsed by the greed. now, all the sudden the good deeds of the american nuns, although i shouldn't relegate good deeds to just american nuns, are being challenged by the hierarchy because they threaten the power of the church not because they are doing anything against the teachings of Jesus. i believe they should just choose to separate themselves from the church altogether. i am sure that millions of people would follow them and yeah, maybe we would end up with a new american catholicism. so what? nothing wrong with that. i'm sure they will get plenty of money to help continue to run their compassionate, godly deeds. i'm not catholic, but i would donate to their cause because i believe that doing good brings goodness into the world, so why not?

News98:

My posts are called "hatred" and "angry" because you dont know how to describe it when someone actually, thoughtfully, sticks up for their views.

LOL. "Thoughtfully"? Where's the so-called thought in parroting back someone else's dogma? You haven't laid forth a single original thought in any of the many comments you've made on this story. Everything you have said is based 100% in the archaic dogma you unquestioningly accept.

People call your posts hateful because, among other things, they are blatantly misogynistic. You repeatedly denigrate the idea that women and men should be treated as social equals (which is what feminism is).

So, you don't think misogyny is hateful? Or you don't think that discriminating against women is misogynistic? Or you don't think that RCC doctrine discriminates against women? Which is it?

Just another person cravenly hiding behind the selectively-obeyed "Word of God" when it happens to confirm their own biases.

Sigh... after reading this entire back and forth among my fellow commenters, I have to say...

Never try to argue with people like News98. They have a mindset that is stubborn and unwilling to listen to even facts or real-life experience. I know people like them and I'm sure you know some like them too. They have the right to say what they want but much of what they say is muddled by their own experiences and knowledge and are too stubborn to let go when differing experiences and knowledge develops. Once a person's personality and values and beliefs are set, the ego will not easily change it. It's like trying to lift a 50 ton rock with a fork. You can try but all that will happen is that you will break your fork and be left angry and frustrated.

My advice is LEAVE him alone and state your piece. Don't waste your time and energy arguing with individuals who cannot be moved. You will only give them the satisfaction of making you angry. Who wants that bad feeling and energy circulating in themselves? If you do, you're abnormal and probably need to see a psychologist. You may have anger issues. Trust me, being happy is a much better feeling.

As for the nun issue, I would like to say that the Vatican as an organization that follows a doctrine is in the right but, as a group of followers, is largely in the wrong. The Church has the "legal" right granted by the Catholic body to address a group who is not following their doctrine explicitly. However, many followers themselves have been led astray. Any group of followers, regardless if it be a minority or a majority, that condones child abuse or mistreatment of other people because they are different demonstrates a poor reflection of Christ's teachings indeed. Apathetic Catholics who do nothing in the face of this apparent lack of morality and civility are just as guilty of sinning as well. When the heart of the religion is spoiled and poisoning the rest of the body, then the time of change and renewel is at hand. The center of the Catholic church I think needs a new heart and a renewal of spirit. If it takes nuns to do it, then so be it. They recognize that the heart must be renewed in the face of the new majority's view that everyone must be treated and loved equally. They know their heart is ailing.

It's pretty simple. The Nun's use God's words to spread love, the Vatican uses his word as a club. It's very sad.

No wonder so many are leaving the church and no one wants to become a priest.

Toni,

The nuns usually have an order that houses retired nuns in cetain areas-as an example in Portland oregon there is a retirement home for Holy Names nuns that will track down HN nuns that served in the northwest schools in Oregon, Wa, etc. Her order in CT or NC should be able to help you. They may even have a website or a publication that they put out to interested parties. Sis and I tracked down our favorite high school teacher and found out that she passed away but made a contribution to the order in her name. Good luck with finding her Toni.

Why don't you read the Bible and learn what Christianity is all about? it is obvious from your post that you have no idea of what Jesus taught. Understand teh difference between forgiveness and being nonjudgemental vs. condoning. Read the parts where Jesus told his disciples to clean the dust off of their sandals from those towns that did not accept them. They were not just the holier than thou they were also the towns and villages filled with sinful behavior unwilling to turn away.

Me Too - I am following the Nuns. another recovering Catholic

I'll remember that when I am on jury for a murderer, rapist, or a pedophile.

Ellis...you've nailed it ! no pun intended...

Like the U.S. Secret Service -- once women get access to inner circles of the Catholic Church -- the "party" for the sexually permissive/abusers will be over.

If you think the vatican is so evil, why do you want it to continue into the 21st century at all?