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Subscribe to RSSAn Oklahoma high school valedictorian's diploma is being withheld because she used of the phrase "what the hell?" in her speech. KFOR's Sarah Stewart reports.
An Oklahoma high school valedictorian who was denied her diploma because she used the world “hell” in her commencement speech doesn’t plan to apologize for her choice of words, her father says.
David Nootbaar said he is furious that Prague High School is withholding his daughter Kaitlin's diploma because of her use of the word during the graduation speech in May. “She has worked so hard to stay at the top of her class and this is not right,” he said. “She earned that diploma. In four years she has never made a B. She got straight A’s and had a 4.0 the whole way through."
School officials declined to comment. "This matter is confidential and we cannot publicly say anything about it," Prague schools Superintendent Rick Martin said in a statement to KFOR-TV in Oklahoma City.
David Nootbaar said his daughter was inspired by the movie “The Twilight Saga: Eclipse" when she wrote the speech. “Her quote was, ‘When she first started school she wanted to be a nurse, then a veterinarian and now that she was getting closer to graduation, people would ask her, what do you want to do and she said ‘How the hell do I know? I’ve changed my mind so many times,’” he said.
He said in the written script she gave to the school she wrote “heck,” but in the moment she said “hell” instead.
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During the ceremony, Nootbaar said the audience laughed and she finished her speech to warm applause. She didn’t know there was a problem, he said.
But trouble surfaced when she went to school to pick up her graduation certificate last week, her father said.
“We went to the office and asked for the diploma and the principal said ‘Your diploma is right here but you’re not getting it. Close the door we have a problem,'" Nootbaar said.
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He said the principal told Kaitlin she would have to write an apology letter before he would release the diploma.
Kaitlin doesn’t plan on writing an apology letter because she doesn’t feel she did anything wrong, her father said. He said her family stands behind her decision.
Kaitlin starts classes at Southwestern Oklahoma State University in a few days on a full scholarship.
KFOR-TV's La'Tasha Givens contributed to this report.
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This should not be surprising........this is oklahoma! Or joklahoma!
Well THAT'S a hell of a note! Who the hell do they think they are, and what the hell were they thinking? This country is going to hell in a hand basket. It'll be a cold day in hell before that school will live this down!
;-)
What the H-LL??? F*%king Ridiculous!
Time to get a lawyer with "1st Amendment" expertise and take the school to court.
Damn.
Is this a public school or a private catholic school of some kind? Even if it is a religious school, I doubt that they can legally withhold her diploma based on the use of a single word. The principal is right, they DO have a problem. They're going to get sued.
Paying due respect to the state and people of Oklahoma, this school principal is an aberration.
Both of my parents were born and raised in Oklahoma, and I still have family there. While it is true that none of them ever use the word "hell" in daily speech, ... it is only because it is too damned polite! They all prefer to make their points more stridently (grin).
Oklahomans are no different than any other Americans. My guess is that 99.99% of them are also rolling their eyes over this incident and thinking "give this accomplished young woman and 4.0 student her diploma, and 'retire' that boneheaded principal."
;-)
they're just pissed off because she's smarter than them.
The most important thing we can all take away from this story is that leather jacket-wearing news anchors in Oklahoma (at least the one anchor in this video) are smoking hot.
Hell isn't a swear word so what is the big deal? almost every day some conservative wingnut preacher tells us all we are going to go to hell if we don't send him all our money.
Absolutely. Maybe by the 25th Century, most Okalhomans will be caught up with the 21st Century. Hopefully she gets the HELL out of OK.
Joke. Tell the school to go "F" themselves.
These schools need to "loosen up and get over it!" Before she made the speech, she EARNED the diploma. Let's see how the ACLU digs into this one. The school deserves all the legal fees they get to keep her from getting her diploma. Girl, get a lawyer and sock it to them - 1970's morons
WTF!!!
Worse language is used on TV and in movies daily and the girl worked hard to earn her grades and who is that principle to say she can't get her diploma due to using the word hell. Hell is in the bible and it is a place people go so I hope she sues the school board as this is wrong and not only wrong but HELL WRONG. That principal should be worried about the number of drop outs or teens who are going to have a baby or homeless student and not the word HELL.
Most high school graduates truly do NOT know ... what in the hell they want to be ! I wanted to be a doctor and took an "F ... you" attitude when the guidance counselor told me I would make a fine accountant ! I had absolutely no knowledge of what an accountant did !!
Today, I am a licensed practicing Certified Public Accountant working in private industry ... go figure. That old man knew more about me after one specific test than I knew about myself. Sadly, many high school kids could benefit from such tests today, but I don't hear a lot of "noise" about these basic interest, personality profile type of tests being given any more.
mort44... my words exactly... what the HELL, what century are they living in?.. to use the word HELL, I would be sooo happy if that is the only cuss word kids use. I would be getting a lawyer if that was my child, and go on every news station and talk show that would have us. These schools are really going to far, they let the kids get bullied and die, but oh my... to use the word "HELL" in a speech, why not hold a public flogging Oakies.... geeezzzz
She should tell that principal to @!$%# off. We have freedom of speech in America.
She'll get the diploma... sounds like she is a great and hard worker.. I wish her the best. The school will have the egg that they deserve.
I bet the Principal says much worse than "Hell" when he sees the lawsuit.
I am afraid that my apology letter would be far more discriptive about this policy than just the word "hell".
Makes me wonder what they would do to preachers who dare to ask the question of "do you want to go to heaven or hell?"
School: "Write an apology note."
Kaitlin: "Oh, HELL no!"
You go, girl.
Heir Oberfurer Principal von idiot, has no authority to deny a earned diploma; unless there is a written school policy, that everyone is aware of, saying the word hell, is a violation of school rules; Hell, is written in the Bible, and about 90% of all novels.
care to comment on ignorant things that ignorant democrats say?.... i'd help you out but there's not enough space
In some countries she would be wearing all black and have her face hidden. In fact, something like this could call for an "Honor Killing" Truthfully, in those countries, she wouldn't be allowed to go to school, let alone be top of her class. I feel it's a good thing that her school did what they did so we can know who and what they are so we can replace them. I hope she tells them "Thank you" on their last day on the job. This is America. Not some third world country being ran by religious nuts. When a nut emerges, we need to weed it out.
This is the statement of a self-righteous coward who is unwilling to explain an irrational decision.
Radcliffe4, I didn't read anything in this article which disclosed the principal's political affiliation. Jumping to conclusions, perhaps?
The Principal is small minded. Probably mad that she got through the full 4 years without being properly brain washed!
Even if this was some hard core Catholic school, the word 'hell' is said 31 times in the King James bible.
Yes, we are rolling our eyes. This principal IS abusing his power and trying to make an example of her. Every state has their @!$%#s.
Yes, we have those too, but then again so do other states. :0 )
We are seeing more and more of this little men (and women) with just a little bit of power going nuts. They don't understand common sense or how to wield their power successfully and correctly. This principle is a little man who thinks he is a big fish in a little pond when in actuality he is a dumb fish in a cesspool.
Lived 23 years in Oklahoma. It abounds with knuckle dragging mouth breathers.
I hope that she sues that school out of existence! What the HELL!!!! OOOPS, there's that word again! I mean, they say it in church, you say it every time you say, HELLo! What the HELL? Fire the principal immediately and get someone younger and more educated!
Just another example of the fanatic right wing evanglistas who want to run the country as a tyrannically religious police state.
See also: Iran, USSR (before it disolved) and Third Reich.
Nice job, Robert in Oregon!
This is the best thing that could have happened to this bright young woman. She is getting a firsthand taste of fascistic thinking and a fascistic system's response to even slight perceived deviance from very narrow behavioral constraints. I hope she understands that this is not a 'problem' but a priceless learning experience that will serve her all her life. Mr. Nootbaar also seems like the kind of person who will give these bullies a black eye and stuff their 'apology' requests up their collective asses and a better example of a fathers job I could not now give. Bravo, Mr Nootbaar, and a hat's off to your daughter's impulse to say what she felt. May she carry that impulse undimmed into her future. It may not make her life easier, but it will make her life a whole lot more satisfying and interesting. Is she running for office...?
How is it possible that a school district could be directed such cretinous imbeciles? Hopefully the citizens of the community will replace these individuals quickly with people who have an IQ with more than one digit.
@William Bjornson, Aloha, Orygun
Bill, you think like an Oregonian (Orygunian), which is to say intelligently and insightfully, of course! (HA). I think it's the clean water, and the clear air (and the close proximity to a McMenamins, wherever we happen to be!)
blow up the principals inbox!...
dsmith (at) prague.k12.ok.us
another PC example of ZERO tolerance by educators with ZERO common senseThis happens all OVER NOT JUST oklahoma.
My guess she probably had perfect attendance. This is/was the only time she ever did anything against the rules so the boneheaded superintendant is going to put his foot down and make an example of her. What a dickhead!
Green - USSR? They were communists, extreme left wing and didn't allow religion.
Wow, this thread might set a record for commentor stupidity. Despite the existence of the First Amendment, and the rise of the super intelligent class of know-it-all progressive agnostics, the cold, hard fact remains that in mainstream society there remains a certain decorum...an unspoken code of what is and what is not acceptable, especially in more formal settings such as job interviews, business meetings, structured social events.....and graduations. I hope that this young lady learns this lesson from her experience, and doesn't end up as a permant loser, self-made by her arrogance.
Wow, still shocked at the LACK of CLASS exhibited by the liberal left. Maybe if more people exhibited a little more class and decorum, myself included, our society wouldn't be the hateful, ugly, self-centered mess it is today. Oh, I forget, I'm talking to those self-centered entitlist liberals who probably don't have a clue what I'm talking about. Let me put it simply. Do we really need to cuss, get ugly, flaunt the RULES all the time just to prove how "free thinking" we are??? It's just a bunch of ugly acting people copying one another and they think they're rebels or whatever. So silly.
As for this young lady, there are rules to a commencement speech. As a former 4.0 valendictorian myself I am well aware of the general rules set out long before the speech is made. And I am sure that curse words are stictly prohited. Are they really needed? I think not. If she is as intelligent and successful as it seems, she shouldn't have demeaned herself by stooping to that level at such a important occasion. I realize this sounds a bit old fashioned for you liberals but I personally think that a few more old fashioned values and manners are truly called for in this day and age of ugliness. I mean just look at the ugly lies and name calling coming from the libs right now because the facts don't back up what their party is trying to say so they resort to low life tactics.
As for her not receiving her diploma until she apologizes, I don't think that's too harsh considering she did voluntarily flaunt the rules. It's called common courtesy which is far from common these days. I don't think she's a bad person or anything, I've used some curse words myself over the years but this was not the place and she KNEW that. And I am reminded of something I've heard, if you have to use that sort of language to make your point, you lack the intelligence to articulate yourself well.
Since the word, "hell" is in so many books that students have to read (I guess even in Oklahoma), I wonder if the principal had the word blacked out in all of the school copies of said books.
She should utilize another word that is fully approved by the FCC and the Bible, and tell the principal to shove the diploma up his "ass".....
E-mail the superintendent and let him know how you feel: rmartin@prague.k12.ok.us
Another public servant who seems to think he has the power. He needs to retire without his pension. See if he likes similar treatment.
Remember in November Ladies!
This same kind of religious 'our way or the highway' false-christian ideology is being perpetrated on you by RWNJ GOP. Bet the principal is card-carrying member. Kudos to this fine accomplished young lady and her father for standing up to this ignorant principal. Let's hope the public outcry makes the principal do an about face. If not, how about inundating the school and school board with tons of e-mails, phone calls, letters, etc, demanding his resignation unless she promptly receives her well-deserved diploma.
Just to give you a history lesson, the Third Reich was not right wing.,....they were the National SOCIALISTS (Nazi's), and The Soviet Union was an atheistic State, or more properly, imprisioned religious people and denounced organized religion because they wanted only the State to be worshipped. Guess you didn't pay attention in history class.
@justslapme. How do you know if this guy is a repub? There are plenty of bible reading Dems.
AAHHHHaaaa you fell into the ole HELL Trap..........................
You would have been perfect but............... AWH....HELL!!!!!
Going to hell in a handbasket. Golly, I sure hope to heck I got that right!
She will be able to get her diploma when the current administration is replaced in the future. I sure as hell wouldn't worry about it anyway.
The bagger population just hates smart people.
Oklahoma Taliban?
They should sue the school district into the next county. She worked years for this diploma and got 4.0 (that's much better than the principal I am sure); not giving her the diploma is @!$%#. Decorum my foot. The principal could have scolded her a minute and then given her the diploma she deserves.
@Robert in Oregon ROFL...Your first comment was awesome...
@OklahomaMom. Really? I think this just extreme. It is like some of the zero tolerance policies that just teach kids how absurd adults can be.
heard ; ; after her speech they went look'n for her graduation car...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5QVVRXCWw0
She should sue the school system and also sue the principal personally. This principal is as bad as a teacher that "date" her/his students.
@jim-1455434 Ignoring author
Jim, I too took an aptitude test in High School. I thought I wanted to be an architect. The test results, however suggested my greatest aptitudes were #2). "burden on society"; and #1). "organ donor." I became an architect anyway, but have often been a burden on society and will ultimately fulfill my greatest aptitude, as well. So in my case too, the test will win!
;-)
spider-737231
OklahomaMom
Well, spyder and Oklahoma Mom. I was afraid this was going to be a one-sided argument, but you rescued us with your support of this foolish, over-reaching school decision. You might want to consider that this young woman EARNED the right to speak using words of her own choosing. Anyone offended by this very MILD language ..... a word that merely elevates a movie rating from "G" to "PG" must confine themselves to church TV (Oh wait, they use "hell" there too, don't they? ...... except they use the word as a threat about where you will spend eternity if you don't believe the unbelievable, the irrational, and the impossible. Have faith or you are going to hell. Right?)
One more thing, OKie Mom. How did the "liberal left" become the target here. There was nothing I saw to indicate the politics of this young lady, although I will grant you that straight A's might be a clue. Recall your conservative hero Dick Cheney telling a senator to "F*** off" on the Senate floor. Now THAT is class. THAT is decorum.
Everybody is so wrapped up on the "war" against 2nd Amendment, but it's the First Amendment that is under attack in our nation, and is the most important. This graduating class just got a taste.
If you want to call the school and make your opinion known there number is "405-567-2281"
http://high-schools.com/schools/14335/prague-high-school.html
This principal needs to be fired, now by holding the diploma, its going to cost tax payers layer fees and any additional monetary rewards the high school student seeks. Then they'll get their diploma also.
Idiots.
Heres the thing, graduating high school is really not much of an accomplishment. Considering how well you did, it will be at the bottom of a list of accomplishments you'll have in the future. If I were you I'd tell the principal to "go to hell, I dont need a useless piece of paper."
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage?
Robert...this is your high school calling. We're rescinding your diploma. Please return it immediately or there will be
hellto pay!Seriously...people in Jokelahoma must have extremely thin skin. Of course, this ridiculous action comes from a state where they're wasting time and money passing laws that prevent the use of Sharia law...even though there is zero possibility of that!
Sheesh...a kid goes through twelve years of school (assuming you don't graduate after the sixth grade like Jethro Bodine), earns valedictorian honors, then gets it revoked because of one word? Absurd.
And I'm shocked at the LACK OF BRAINS exhibited by the conservative right.
Want to hear a good one? Prague's mascot is a devil..........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_High_School_%28Oklahoma%29
I think she should write the letter. public speeches are not the time or place. NO I don't think hell is a terrible word, YES I say it myself. The focus should be on teaching the future leaders some basic common sense and decency. If they learn it now, we won't be having this discussion later when they look foolish(as role models). As a side note, it was unoriginal. Why would she use something from a movie? Calm down people. This should have been an easy one.
Oklahomamom...Class has nothing to do with it. Conservatives hate intelligent people. It doesn't take any unusual intelect to get a 4.0...lots of us accomlished that....The conservatives have historically taken their own sins and tried to dump them on everyone else. Why do you think that most Republicans come from the least educated regions of the country?......why are the views of the south backward and bigoted?......God said we are to love and accept everyone and yet "conservatives" only accept "white people"...that isn't Godly.....making an issue over a single word that was used for emphasis.....shows ignorance. Trying to demean a person over something so trivial...is un-Godly. Stop presenting yourself as so "holier than thou"..."Mom" Your respose was self righteous, at best.
.....
If she already earned her diploma, then they don't have the right to keep it from her. Are they going to follow her around the rest of her life, and slap her hand every time she uses the word hell? To the school officials, your time in watching over her was finished when she passed all of her finals and earned that diploma. Now, you can do what you are suppose to do, give her the diploma, and get off of her back, she's old enough not to have you dictating to her what she can or can not say to people.
At first glance, my reaction is to think that this school administrator is over reacting, and he should release the diploma to the girl, and simply move on.
However, there are very good reasons why teenager'sspeeches must be pre-approved before they take the podium at a public high school graduation. You wouldn't want a profanity-laced tirade in front of hundreds of families including parents, other children, and grand-parents. Nor would the school system want any controversial opinion expressed about a "hot-button-issue" that could be construed as its own, and thus, get the school board sued by someone with a contradictory point of view.
They said they have the draft she submitted before she gave the speech, and it has the word "heck" instead of the word "hell." It was deceptive on her part to change that after the speech was approved in its original form.
Furthermore, knowing what I do about the kind of "censorship" certain news groups and venues engage in , I think it would be hypocritical of any news service that might display a bias, be it liberal or conservative, to openly chastise either side in this matter.
For, just as surely as one might say the diploma should be released, and everyone just "move on;" you can also say that the girl should just apologize, and move on with her life.
At the end of the day, she did deceive the administration by changing the words in her speech. If all they want is a stinking apology, why doesn't her family just instruct her to do it, and close this very STUPID chapter in everyone's life out there!
"This matter is confidential and we cannot publicly say anything about it,"
Why not? Afraid you may have made yourselves out to be fools for doing this, and will make it worse by opening your mouths again? I believe it stopped being confidential the moment you people withheld her diploma in front of a public setting.
Dear con-science....I think you may be on to something.
Can they even do that?
If a student has not only completed their required high school credits, but excelled academically, has she [or he] not earned their Diploma?
If I were this student, I'd sue the pants of the school.
This is what happens when a person of authority has no clue what to do with their power. The principle was so embarassed and concerned about how HE would be perceived, that he opted to react like a ridiculous, overgrown brat.
I had a boss that would do that to me all the time. Whenever he thought we were making him look he would make irrational demands just to prove to who was in control. Nevermind if they made no sense and were a huge waste of time and a distraction.
The purpose of these types of positions is not for the sole benefit of your own ego!!! So what if this straight A student made a few parents raise an eyebrow? You are dealing with teenagers. It happens. Let it go!!!
Oklahomamom...the word is "valedictorian" not "valendictorian"...sure you were. Hah!
TReed, my bad. The USSR was a the very epitome of individual liberties and religious tolerance. Their left wing tyranny was completely different than the right wing tyranny of Third Reich and Iran. And the USSR's tolerance for religion other than that expoused by the government was diametrically opposite from the religious intolerance of Iran and the Third Reich.
Thanks for catching my unfair characterization of Stalin & Co. as similiar Hitler and the Ayatollas (sp?).
This principle needs to give up this battle before it gets out of hand. Every day it goes on will just make himself look worse. It's a fight he cannot win. He's a douche for picking it in the first place.
I think you’re all missing the point. I doubt the problem was the word so much as the lack of respect she extended to the school and the audience. If the audience had been only her friends and family, I would feel differently but it wasn’t. There were children and, most likely, people who find that type of language offensive. I realize that in this day and age, people equate being a grown-up with “doing it my way” and “if you don’t like it, that’s just too bad” but that’s a lot of what is wrong with America today. We, as a nation, no longer treat each other with dignity and respect. We are definitely a nation of “it’s all about ME!” Be honest – legal argument aside, if you had your 10-year old daughter out in public and some guy who sees nudity as not only ok but perfectly natural and that people who disagree are just uptight conservatives idiots who are too stupid to know any better – would they have the right to subject you and your child to that? Many wouldn’t think so, many would find it offensive. For a lot of people, words used to swear are offensive. Is your moral line more important than theirs?
And for those of you touting the fact that “hell” is in the bible. Yes it is, so? In the bible it refers to a place. The words B*tch and B*stard are in the dictionary, but if I take them out of context and call someone or something those names, it’s offensive. More often than not, how you use a word is more important than the word you use.
justicenonexistent
Actually, justice, I believe it is you who misses the point. The horrendous word that caused this young lady to have her diploma withheld barely elevates a G-rated movie to PG. The word was not used in a disrespectful sense, as in "go to hell." The chances that someone would be offended are slight, and those who really are offended (as opposed to the fake shock expressed by some of the self-righteous, small minded buffoons commenting on this thread) are unable to watch network television outside of news and Saturday morning cartoons without experiencing at least mild heart attack symptoms.
Her remark was casual, not, as you state, "doing it my way" or "if you don't like it too bad." There was nothing to indicate that this remark was made in an insulting or "in your face" manner. You overreached, justice. You jumped up on your soapbox and got caught up in your own tangential verbal assault which was absolutely off the mark and more than a little bit silly. Maybe you should take a deep breath, count to ten and try again.
Comment # 1 restored for clarity.
don97524
No dear, it’s you who misses the point. The young lady was out of line. Society today is overrun by boorish people such as yourself who are more than willing to accept anything that YOU deem appropriate and then you want to force the rest of society to see it your way. Attitudes like yours are much of the problem within society.
justice
This young lady's remark was clearly humorous, as in "how in the hell should I know what I am going to do with the rest of my life?" You choose to treat it as a boorish remark because you are self-righteous and dull. If this minor issue disturbs you, you must have a great deal of difficulty with almost all of everyday life. It must really suck to be you. Who are you anyway, the Church Lady (apologies to Dana Carvey)
Increasingly, these high-handed, arrogant public school administrators need to be bitch-slapped, until they see the light. VOUCHERS, VOUCHERS, VOUCHERS....
She earned the diploma and deserves to have it. He better not screw around with her academic file because the law suite could cost the school system their budget for the next 5 years.
Prague Public School's mascot is The Red Devils. Ohh, the irony, lmfao.
What's ridiculous here is the overreaction to the word. True, she may have taken some liberty by exchanging the good word for the bad word in the speech she originally submitted. But she might just as well have unintentionally slipped up. So let's get over it and just get past all of this by asking her to do an hour of community service and give her the diploma she earned.
@lulu, I do not know his political preference, but I would still place a bet.
Sue these i d i o t school officials.
You've got solid ground.
Make $100,000 and get them fired at the same time and tell them they can go to H E L L.
.
Never fear, gods gestapo is here to save us all... or else.
Debbie-1804583: Just can't let you rewrite history. The Nazi Party supported fascist states in both Italy & Spain in the late 1920's and early 1930's. They further supported the Communists till they no longer had any use for them.
The Nazi's actually had some help, by certain elements of the Catholic church. The word socialist thus throws many off.
The US right, tends take European terms as a reflection of their beliefs, out of ignorance of Europe's history. Just an example: Thats why some, mistake Irish Republicans as their own (they are more socialist) . While the Unionists tend to be more like them. But the word Union to a US right winger, is offensive. Rather funny watching them jump on the wrong side, then back again.
Green - Your sarcasm still doesn't cover the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. Communism is the extreme opposite of fascism and Nazi's. Nazi's hated and feared the communists. They are all totalitarian governments and broke, or are breaking in Iran's case, so many human rights that it would be hard to count.
Time for the dark red states to secede.
How is this even legal? She earned that diploma through all the years she was in school, it belongs to her. I'd get a lawyer!!
Seems to me if she had stated in her speech that if underclassmen didn't obey teachers and staff they would end up going to hell, they would have carried her off on their shoulders!
What is that principle thinking? Schools have gone too far. He needs to be either fired or sanctioned for his behavior. In legal terms the principal has commited a tort. Denying chattles. And his behavior has opened the school to legal ramifications. If anybody needs to appologize, it's the principal.
TReed, you are absolutely correct. Sarcasm does not add to the discourse, and I am far too quick to resort to it.
However, tyranny has no left and no right and no religion. Tyranny has only the desire to extend personal power over other people, in part by rationalizing the suppression of any perceived threat to that power - rationalization through religion, culture, politics or economics.
Tje right wing in America today is being driven by persons who are corrupting (among other concepts) serious religious tenets from a culture of bettering one's humanity into a force to suppress challenges to their authority. Enabling principals to deny diplomas for reasons having nothing to do with educational achievement is one big step towards suppression of dissent - in other words, towards tyranny.
The political right in Ameica today is being driven to establish tyranny that denies people the liberty to express themselves, the critical thinking to understand tyranny and the resources to protect themselves from the redistribution of their material goods to the those in power.
The American political left calls for collective action for the common good like health care, education, roads, bridges, social security, national parks, clean air and water, and national defense, but it does not threaten the personal liberty to excel. Conservatives used to champion these same common goals, but the spirit of community has been purged from their manifesto.
Thanks for the discourse.
Sure glad she didn't say a prayer.... all hell would have broke loose !!
She and her family should file a lawsuit and we'll see how just how quickly the school caves. I'm guessing it would take about a nanosecond.
OklahomaMom--A 4.0 valedictorian who can't spell the word "valendictorian" (sic).
The scary part for me is the possible symbolism of the act of the principal. In what other areas of the education provided did this attitude enter. As a former English Lit major, I have to wonder what was on the reading lists in this principal's english classes, Dr. Suess for the juniors, Beverly Cleary for the advanced students in AP English. I have no doubt that this principal would be a book banner / burner if he could be one.
And one last point: this kind of attitude, this hiding students from the reality of life, the fear of so called curse words etc, only hurts the students. If they enter the world naive and ignorant, they will not see the world accurately. They will not understand the world. Their opinions will be baseless and limited. And that will hurt them and our country.
The ACLU of Oklahoma will write a form letter in 20 minutes and this will be settled because this is an obvious violation of the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. The Principal might not like the work but you don't have the right not to be offended by the speech of another person. The Superintendent should have fired the principal for his ignorance and the money that his idiocy will cost the district.
The school can either back down now and admit that they were wrong or spend a million dollars in legal fees to reach the same result.
Who cares if they give her, her diploma. The high school cant hold her reccords. So the diploma does not matter. The transcripts have to be passed to the collage. So who cares.
The school rules are students aren't allowed to cuss. She used the word in a sentence where it was cussing. She showed the speech to administration prior to giving it and the word was heck. She changed it to hell, said the line in front of the entire school of students, family and administration. The principal is stuck between a rock and a hard place because the rule against cussing stands, so he asked for a letter of apology, showing the school is sticking with its no student cussing rule. She says I don't care, I don't have to go back there and will eventually get the diploma anyway, with her equally arrogant Daddy at her side. Rules are not popular. Apologizing is not popular. Personal accountability is not popular. Suing to get your way, even when you're wrong is very popular. Commonsense, respect for reasonable rules and a moral compass is being dismissed as outdated stuff. Right along with character, which is not synonymous with a grade point average. A small misstep easily corrected turns into an MSN First Read story. So the moral of the story is, Americans who follow the rules are stupid. Don't suck it up and apologize when you do something wrong. Weasel out of it. Work the system. You could end up in the news.
Lets just say for the moment that her character is not good. Many people do not have good character but most of them have their high school diplomas. What relevance does this have for not getting a high school diploma. Should we take back all of the high school diplomas of all the people who later are found out to not have good character? Of course not. She exceeded all of the minimum requirements to earn a high school diploma. If this incident happened a year earlier, she might have gotten detention or suspension, not that next year you will not graduate from this school. Since she was completely done with high school forever, this was the only punishment option that he could impose on her. The principle did the only option available, whether or not the punishment fit the crime or not. She must be given that high school diploma because it was earned 100%.
Our founding Fathers went through an awful lot of grief so we their great great....many times removed grandkids could have the freedom of speech.Not be prisoners to those who would use their positions of power to curb it, threaten us with punitive measures to quiet us,remove our free will to express it nor retaliate against us when used. Without facing the weight of the Constitution bearing down upon them.Crushing their attempts to control the voice of any man, woman or child.No one is greater than it is. Some people need reminding of that it seems. They picked the wrong, brilliant woman to pick on thank heavens.
What you all are missing (typical) is that there seems to have been a vetting process that school did to her speech. More than likely (I admit I don't know, but everyone here seems to know) is that she was not allowed to use any of what they deemed as vulgar language. She would have known this ahead of time, and did not abide to what she was told. Now she is giving her side of the story, because it is such a sad story of someone not listening to what they were told, and now she is still expecting the results she wants. Of course, this is an assumption, and everyone else here knows the facts.
It's getting tiresome to read this kind of stuff. When one side of the story is given, generally centered around someone who didn't listen to direction, who now wants something they were "screwed" out of by some indifferent company, government, entity, etc., who is abiding by some rule they could bend just this once.
Obviously the school considers the word a curse word which it is! However, it also has become such a commonly used SLANG word that, in society, its slang characteristics have superceded the weight it carries as a curse word. I don't quite understand her father's backing her up, though. She was addressing a group of friends AND FAMILY!! Does dad allow that language to be used at home? Her grandmother might have been in that audience. Or her Pastor. Or her employer. (you get my point).
Secondly, she LIED to the school! You know without a doubt that she INTENDED to use that word right from the beginning. No high school kid in public school uses the word "heck"! Kids these days think nothing of the slang use of that word (or worse) in everyday language (not just if they feel the need to curse in anger or whatever) so I'm sure she purposely changed the the word in her submitted draft of her speech. That fact alone should be proof she screwed up.
It sucks when something in life backfires. Typically, you have to deal with something unsavory that ruins things. This time it ruined her graduation (and everybody elses). I'm sure she'll get her diploma eventually. I just wonder how it will appear on her college applications? I'm sure she can forget any recommendations from her school (lucky for her, tho - that 4.0 will help some).
I'd love to see Kaitlin stand on her principal.
These control freaks just couldnt resist taking one more swipe at somebody on the way out. How childish.
The principal is a tool. Give her the diploma and stop with the power trip!
I'd like to hear what the legal grounds are, I doubt there is any policy that would support the Principals' position. Apparently he is applying his personal views.
If she satisfied all of the graduation requirements in the syllabus then she gets a diploma. It's just that simple.
You just have to love the principle taking one more poke at this student on the way out the door. The student should hire an attorney and sue the school district for her diploma, attorney fees, and court costs.
I bet if it was a boy who said it, there would have been no repercussions! How stupid! How, well, 'Okie'
I hope she sues the school and walks away with not only her diploma, but a wad of cash to help pay for her college expenses!
I agree rainlady2, and I'm a male. This is a case of a principal who feels he has the right to determine who graduates or not irregardless of gpa. The Prague school board should immediately put him on suspension, override his decision and grant Kaitlyn the diploma immediately. Put the principal on notice that anymore self-serving acts will result in his dismissal and a non-recommendation to any other school considering hiring him.
I can't believe this story but I can. She is smart, a total 10 looks, and will leave that Country Dumplin town if she wants. The school should apologize before they get sued into the ground. If they persist, go after their General Liability policy - Personal Injury. Not that I work in Insurance :)
Good luck to this bright star!
where are these dumnasses comin' from? radical christians=radical muslims=radical jews.............people quit the god damn bible thumpin' will ya!!!!!
IXLR8...
I am thinking that the principle had something else in mind for this student.
While I consider many suits to be frivolous it appears that this gal and her family have a legitimate reason to pursue one.
------------------------
Doug oates...
I don't believe the article said anything about religion. BTW - feeling guilty about something?
OK, just in the interest of Fair and Balanced, let's Watch-Out-For-the-Folks by adding some Fox News no-Spin:
She is an elitist who thinks that an education entitles her to quote others exactly and in context. She's not "one of the folks" and thinks she can thumb her nose at the very people who are striving to make her a better person. We would not give her ideas any credence by interviewing her directly. She should be required to cleanse herself by going to football games every Friday night and Saturday afternoon, and learning all the cheers, for a sentence of four years. Her obsession with getting a good education at the public's expense simply show her to be a socialist who wants the public to support her in her sinful activities.
There: See how we bring fairness and balance to the national discourse? (My arm is getting really sore patting myself on the back)
Yes, makes me ask myself "Who are the children, and who is the adult here?"
Oh no! She said the "H" word. Burn her at the stake! She's the one who is trying to bring Sharia law to the state! Better pass another law banning Sharia or we're all doomed!
Signed,
Jethro Bodine, Bug Tussle, OK.
They should pull the principles teachers license. He lives in the 1940's and must have a massive ego.
Oh, DG_W Jethro would have whupped up on this principle and throwed him in the cement pond.......
And the whole bunch of you would be screaming bloody hell if she had of mentioned Jesus Christ.
The principle keeps remembering his mommy looking at him in tears and saying Oh Hell, what have I done when he was a baby.
Please someone make it stop! What are these idiot school officials thinking? Really she used the word hell? Awe hell! What the hell! Sometimes you really have to wonder what people get their panties in a wad over. So ridiculous! What the hell.
You are so right TruettCollins, I believe she should apologize
Greentimer, your lame political spin is not only not amusing in the least little bit, but it has absolutely no bearing on the story in any way. I find it truly pathetic that you would attempt to inject your idiotic political assertions into something that has no political aspect whatsoever. If you had any shame, you'd break your other arm (the one you didn't dislocate patting yourself on the back) so the rest of us don't have to read the lunacy that springs from your alleged brain.
Awww, another oppressed "christian".
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage?
These people call themselves 'Educators'? The Principal and School District should be sending her an apology. Their response "This matter is confidential..." Of course it is, these people look like complete idiots! How do you refuse to give your school Valedictorian her diploma because she said the word "hell" in her speech? Really? Clearly these people need to be replaced and real educators brought in to run the school and school district.
Lighten up Beastie. Sheesh. Herman Cain was right about one thing, America has lost its sense of humor.
Pretty amazing. What an unfortunate mistake by Kaitlin. However, is sounds like a DUE PROCESS OF LAW issue here, as well as FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION and perhaps an ABUSE OF DISCRETION by the principal. I could imagine the use of the word "hell" could be considered impolite. Clearly not obscene or an incitant. Kaitlin should check the school board regulations regarding the use of such words during a commencement speech. Doubtful that any exist. In any event, surely the principal has complied with the appropriate administrative procedures. It appears he may not be timely though; graduation surely occured some time ago.
A well thought-out letter to the Principal, explaining this mistake, may be the best solution. It would appear that a person so seemingly obtuse might do his best to smear or harm the young graduate in some way - in attemp to cover his own ass or merely for the pleasure of his own vengance. Who knows and why mess with it. I would doubt the case would be worth much anyway, unless there really is a race or gender issue here.
Oh, just give her the goddamn diploma!!!;)
I bet I know what she is going to be - "A Lawyer"
Let's ALL call the school and complain, that should do it.
I thought we were shopping the globe here for people like me (other countries) and her , later to be "Valley Dictators"---, or is it really dumb people we want to be able to tell the government lies--actually for/from both parties?
No wonder the new computer chip factory moved back to Germany (Global foundries), possibly I should go back as well, instead of teaching to a dumbed down people!---but but but that is not job creation then; do not get me started here, because I do not believe in hell!--Rather deal with atoms and molecules---they are actually there, I have seen them years ago!!---And without that, there would be nothing at all!--not even politics!
Call the Federal Education sec, and get your diploma if you really want to see a hard copy! I am sure the colleges already have you signed up all over, like for my kids when they were ready with distinction!--Hell BTW is in the dictionary!
TruettCollins--it's Prague, Oklahoma. One is supposed to mention Jesus Christ in one's speech (though, of course, not by way of a blasphemous statement). Students may mention Christ spontaneously if they want to--and, of course, the good people of Prague would expect a valedictorian to want to.
The principal didn't think that she would refuse to apologize--and he sure as heck didn't expect it to become a national issue. I expect he thought that her family plans to stay in Prague--where they will be pariahs if this goes viral.
The young lady doesn't need a diploma to graduate--the diploma is just a piece of paper issued by the school that commemorates the occasion. She has graduated. As long as they don't try to keep her from "graduating" and they don't withhold her information, then they probably can withhold the celebratory document.
They will just go stealth--any time she asks for documents or puts her high school down on a job form, they will refuse to answer to confirm that she graduated. Have fun doing anything about that. Poor child--I think she should have just not chosen to say it, as she ought to know by now what life is like in Prague, and she should have stayed circumspect until she was the Hades out of there.
Superintendant Rick Martin and this principal are prime examples of small minded, petulant individuals who have seemingly gained some small measure of power, and can't help but using it against others. Oklahoma must be SO proud that these are the people molding their children. And not to worry, folks, he can't alter the academic record, nor prevent her from graduating. (She starts college soon) All he can do is "withhold" her piece of paper, like the overbearing punk he is showing himself to be. Big deal. She can apply for, and receive it, later. I never bothered to attend my undergraduate College graduation. Outside, June, 100 degrees. Mail it to me.
I certainly wouldn't apologize if I were in her shoes.
Others have said it and I agree. The principal is a control freak and needs to get a grip. I appreciate that commencement is a solemn occasion and the use of the word "hell" may not have been totally appropriate in Podunk, Oklahoma... but who cares. Commencement is also a time for celebration and - if this were my daughter who just graduated with a perfect 4.0 grade point average... the use of the word "hell" would be the kindest thing the principal would be hearing from me.
Deny a valedictorian her diploma because she said the word "hell"?
What kind of morons are we dealing with here?
Is Oklahoma in a time warp or something?
Unbelievable! With all the things kids do wrong and a word holds this kid back! A minor word! She is an example for youth to follow-so many drop out and don't care-yet this kid did not give up and her entrance into the world is hampered by a school system on some kind of "control tripp" !!?? I am blown away-no wonder so many kids drop out and rebel-this is just so sad on so many levels! In my younger days I would of screamed "BOYCOTT the school"- remove the head person !.......but in this time and age someone could get hurt over what? A WORD!
Just go ahead and write the apology and don't make a big deal out of this. There will be a lot of other larger issues to fight when you get older. This is not one of them. And out of all of this, learn the lesson that there are simply times when profanity is not the best choice of words.
Ridiculous!!
This is nut's!! I wonder what would happen if she mentioned "God" in her speech like the girl in Monument, Colorado a few years ago? This guy must have too much time on his hands to be bothered with this. Does anyone know if there is a legal fund set up yet? I and willing to contribute, how about anyone else????
I don't really see how they can deny her diploma. To consider that a speech trumps her academic achievement is irrational at best, and It is my hope that the fools that made this decision are fired and prevented from holding similar positions ever again.
I don't place any blame on the state at all, just the imbeciles that were responsible for this decision. And imbeciles they most certainly are.
@Tina...they're behaving like knuckledraggers who think she's only supposed to know how to turn on the oven.
Superintendent Martin and the school principal must really have their knickers in a twist, 'cause some pretty lil ol' thang told them to stick it instead of bowing to the MAN.
You got your scholarship Kaitlin; and good for you for standing up to them. My mother, my cousins, my wife, my daughters, and grand-daughters agree...you go girl!!!
I don't agree with her using a curse word during one of the most important speeches in her life, but the principal by policy has no right to keep her from graduating. She should write an apology out of good graces, but by school policy it's not required.
This young lady, a graduated high school student young adult with a perfect 4.0 GPA excersized her right of free speech is denied her diploma? If I were in her shoes I would contact the ACLU and a good constitutional lawyer.
I dare say based on her grades not a single one of her teachers are smart enough to compete with her and are scared little power hungry dweebs and that is the real reason behind this persecution.
Did I miss something in this article? How did religion become part of comments? My 1st reaction to this story is there must be more to it. Finding it hard to believe that a mild cuss word would cause a uproar.
Does anyone reading this blog live in this town? Has something been left out?
She needs to sue the school for violating her freedom of speech. I suspect that she will recieve other offers from other colleges and maybe even be paid to be on a talk show. What a country we live in where the filth on the Comedy Central Roasts (which have included Trump) and shows like Tosh are legal, but the one single word of "hell" in a speech would lead to this! WTF? The word "hell" is used in churches on a regular basis and hey never mention which one they are talking about. (The cold dark one or the real hot one.)
Here is a letter she could write: "I apologize for writing a word that is most often used in churches. As I am not an ordained minister, it was inappropriate for me to use the word. I should have known that there was an A-hole that would try to punish me for using the word. Please forgive me! Now give me my f...n diploma!"
Any other sample letters out there? LMFAO!
OOPS! I meant rotflmfao! I Oklahoma borders Texas so this all makes sense!
I think you’re all missing the point. I doubt the problem was the word so much as the lack of respect she extended to the school and the audience. If the audience had been only her friends and family, I would feel differently but it wasn’t. There were children and, most likely, people who find that type of language offensive. I realize that in this day and age, people equate being a grown-up with “doing it my way” and “if you don’t like it, that’s just too bad” but that’s a lot of what is wrong with America today. We, as a nation, no longer treat each other with dignity and respect. We are definitely a nation of “it’s all about ME!” Be honest – legal argument aside, if you had your 10-year old daughter out in public and some guy who sees nudity as not only ok but perfectly natural and that people who disagree are just uptight conservatives idiots who are too stupid to know any better – would they have the right to subject you and your child to that? Many wouldn’t think so, many would find it offensive. For a lot of people, words used to swear are offensive. Is your moral line more important than theirs?
And for those of you touting the fact that “hell” is in the bible. Yes it is, so? In the bible it refers to a place. The words B*tch and B*stard are in the dictionary, but if I take them out of context and call someone or something those names, it’s offensive. More often than not, how you use a word is more important than the word you use.
Give this young woman here Diploma..she earned it , take these people that have denied her and fire them...this is America Freedom of speech.......To bad you dont understand that , its a word , just a word , they dont have the right or should they have the right to denie her what she has earned because she does not fit WHAT A SMALL GRP OF PEOPLE SAY SHE NEEDS TO FIT TO BE RESPECTFUL i CALL bs . iTS OK TO BE GAY OR LESBIAN WHICH IS FINE BY ME AS WELL ..AND YET WE KICK THIS YOUNG WOMAN FOR A WORD ...i SAY YOU ARE A MORON AND i AM NOT BUYING THAT bs YOU ARE SELLING !!!!!!1
This should be the letter to her school:
Dear School,
I'm sorry for using the word "hell" in my speech. Now give me my ******* diploma.
Sincerely,
Kaitlin Nootbaar
The school is just as bad as msnbc.com for collapsing comments it doesn't like. Msnbc.com doesn't like the American Constitution stand on freedom of speech.
AUFKM!!!!! Of all the words she could've used and they want to hold her diploma for HELL? Seriously??????
Oh, get a grip. Do you really think the generation behind you feels "disrespected" if somebody says the word "hell"? How old are you, anyway? (I'm not young, and I certainly don't feel "disrespected" - talk about "all about me"!)
ofcourse1, it's actually "nbcnews.com", MSNBC ceased to exist some time ago. Comments get collapsed by the "community" when a comment gets too many "flags" for being "of "no value" or "inflammatory."
FYI: The First Ammentment only proscribes the government from limiting speech. Anyone can tell anyone to STFU. nbcnews.com can limit your speech if they want to, just like Fox most certainly does.
Con-science and Truett. The mention of religion at a taxpayer funded activity and the opposition to GLBT equal rights are still protected free speech, even when they are morally wrong or opposed by many people. She could not ask or demand that others pray with her, but publicly stating her religious views in her commencement speech have consistently been protected by the ACLU.
I am a 20+ year member of the ACLU, a secular humanist and a supporter of the GLBT community, but free speech doesn't apply to just the ideas that I agree with. I absolutely abhor the views of the Klan, Phelps and NAMBLA but I still agree with the ACLU defending their right to spread their ignorance, perversion and hatred. Once their speech becomes actions I would hope that they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but the Constitution's First Amendment protects their right to spread their hateful disgusting views.
Voltaire said it best when he said. His quote is the very essence of what free speech means.
" I abhor what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
There was nothing wrong with her speech. The school no doubt is probably using their religion to attack this girl in holding her diploma. As a kid growing up, if we said anything close to the word hell (heck), we had to stick out our tongue and the parents would put hot sauce on it. This was taught thru the churches that we attended, but after we left the church, we no longer had to follow that rule any longer.
For what this azzhole is doing with holding her diploma, I think it's about time that this man be removed from the school board along with any other azzhole that voted to not give her diploma that she rightful earned.
Stand your ground, and when you do get your diploma, I hope you tell each and every one of them to "go to hell" afterwards.
I just looked up the prague school system on the web;....
GUESS WHAT THEIR SCHOOL MASCOT IS......THE RED DEVILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think I would write the school principal a very insulting letter and cc it to the local newspaper.
If I were the father of this young woman, I would do the same. I wouldn't even make the
pretention of being respectful. Civility is not for idiots or the power hungry. It's for real people
who lead real lives. Our principal does not fit into this social category nor is he a fit leader of a public school system.
I would also consider getting a group of parents to run a candidate for the school board and insist that the principal be fired. if the superintendent won't do it, first that person as well.
And I wouldn't bother to go back and get the diploma, I would tell the authorities in the letter that I wasn't coming to get it, and I would challenge them to stop me from claiming I didn't get one, complete with names and addresses of places to write to challenge my educational acheivement.
The so-called "Christian victims" in Oklahoma and elsewhere are simply pathetic. Is this really what the worship of Jesus Christ has come to???
Tell me again what our VICE PRESIDENT said about ObamaCare passing? Wasn't it something like, "This is a big f------g deal"
And NOTHING was said about..................
NeighborOfTheBeast,
Only a Fox News afficianado could infer political spin in a comment about presenting a fair and balanced view of someone being an educated elitist. Wasn't trying to be funny at all.
Your pronouncement of Fox News spinning their opinions seems to verify why most folks watch it. It provides the politically correct version of any event any where any time.
Steve
You are waaaaaaay too selective. A lot was said about it. That's why you and I both know about it.
Having watched the interview on Today with the student and her dad, I have mixed feelings. First and foremost, I don't think she should be denied her diploma, and the school has no grounds for holding it. However, her choice of words was poor, particularly given that she intentionally made the decision to change the words based on feedback from her fellow students. Why won't she apologize for making a decision that unintentionally offended some of her audience, or for deciding to use more offensive language than that what she presented in her rough draft?
Her father is adamant that she should stand her ground. How sad. I think a more effective lesson would be to teach her that she should act responsibly and apologize for unintended consequences caused by her decisions. The principal is immature in his decision to withhold the diploma. Why should she stoop to his level in this power struggle? Take the high road, apologize and move on.
F'in idiots.
funniest part is their mascot and i'm not making this up, the prague red devils. look it up.
HATR_HURTER,
Allll-riiighhht! The Red Devils !! Truly hilarious. (and I did look it up)
Thank you, thank you for that incredible irony. (You should pass that on to Stephen Colbert !!)
How astute HATR - and funny to boot! Their mascot offends me and I think they should replace it with a goat.
Yo, HATR, a little more reseach based on a fading memory brought back to light that delectable spread from the grocery known as Underwood Red Devil canned ham.
So maybe the principal qualifies as an Underwood product.
Aw...look at them damn red devils......................
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage? The Neo-Blasphemy...?
Con-science, you've mentioned that same scenario three times already. However, this is different. The speech she had written was approved, but when she was reading it, she said, "hell" instead of "heck." The point of the speech didn't change. She didn't use the speech to go blathering on about some unrelated topic, or some controversial issue. She changed one word, but not the meaning of what she was saying.
Had she used that platform to go on and on about Christianity, or atheism, or abortion, I would have thought it as inappropriate, and not the right time for it. But she didn't do that. She changed one word from "heck" to "hell" and the meaning of the speech didn't change.
Should she have left it out? Probably. But it seems like it was a spur of the moment thing. It's not like she just got up on stage and gave some profanity laden speech.
I really think this is not something to deny her a diploma over.
Withholding the diploma is wrong and the work of a small minded individual. Leave the @!$%# have the diploma. In my entire working life I've never been asked to show a high school diploma nor even a high school transcript. If she is going to college she most likely has applied already and her transcripts supplied to the college. After college, nobody cares about High School anyway. The principle of the high school is just going to cause himself some well deserved grief and not affect the life of the young girl in any way.
I agree, you are thinking clearly. My comment, though related, was larger in scope than this particular article and was designed to promote reflection on the part of the reader. The fact that I posted it three times and received only this one response so far, indicates that an overwhelming majority of the left are not thinking this issue through fully.
It's not simply, "free speech, anyone can say anything... (as long as it is in line with the left)"
Here we have a case when a girl, crossed a line of politeness expected from the community she lives in, knowing she would offend others, and it's fine by the "official" flag bearers of "tolerance".
While at the same time, anyone who utters a word that offends them, they collapse and websites delete comments from the right that do not fulfill the stereotype and some go unchallenged with their calls for censorship of any kind including suggesting that the "offender" should be quieted through violent means...
There is no "tolerance" rather, an overwhelming majority of the content is in the form of attacks, snide, hateful, mocking and denigrating responses with no quarter given for anyone's else's perspective.
For all of the pseudo-liberals out there who wish to live up to the true values of your movement, tolerance means putting up with someone or something, it doesn't mean you have to like or even respect .... but certainly allow for other views to exist.
Therefore, I would say to those I have been describing: Continue with your witch hunt, attend to the details of your cyber-cleansing, cherry-pick demographics to embrace and wish dead, apply stereotypes and censorship wherever and whenever possible, continue to demonize people of faith, wish the elder generation as early a demise as possible, make fun of Americans from selected geographical areas, ridicule the overweight-(if they are known or even "suspected".... : P to conservative/repugnant), revel in your negative emotions, enjoy!!!
Just stop calling it "tolerance"..... it really does look silly to any thinking person.
Con-science,
The irony of you accusing "pseudo-liberals" and the "majority on the left" as cherry-picking and demonizing other groups, is that you seem to be doing exactly the same.
In fact, I often see comments from the right and comments from the left collapsed in these comment sections. I see people using terms like "Obummer" and "pussy liberals" as often as I see terms like "re-thug-lican" and "Mittens." I see people demonizing entire groups of people based on group membership from both sides.. "All Homosexuals are pedophiles" as often as "All Christians do is spout hate."
When it comes to comments like those that I'm describing, it has nothing do with being left-leaning or right-leaning. It has everything with people failing to act like reasonable adults. And trust me, that isn't limited to a single political position. So, if you were being honest with yourself, your problem isn't with "psuedo-liberals" -- it's with people from both sides of the political fence who refuse to hold a logical rational conversation and instead resort to childish name-calling.
Also, to answer your first question: saying "hell" vs. calling out an entire group of people is nowhere near the same thing. Going off on a rant about gays and gay marriage would be AS inappropriate if she went off on a rant about Christians. Saying hell, however? Has nothing to do with a group of people. It's a commonly used word that gets by tv censors and so forth and is rarely, if ever, actually considered a cuss word.
And to the few of you who thinks it's offensive or impolite and that she should be punished -- that's your perogative. But even so, do you honestly believe withholding her diploma is an appropriate response?
I was a teacher for 25 years. Seriously,a big deal about saying hell with no disrespectful context? There are so many truly disrespectful children not even taught to say please and thank you and the world revolves around them making them entitled and miserable human beings. There are so few involved, balanced parents these days who teach basic morals or values. . How delightful the children who are honest, work for what they have and not robots or pointless rebels, beleive in giving something back .. Values are values. No one in my school knew my religious or political values. I just respected children and expected it back. Everyone assumed I held their beliefs when what I shared was being a decent, curious, committed teacher and person. How is it that so many apply flaws to someone they assume is not of their left, right or whatever the hell leaning? Rigidity and phoniness is not what I would want to convey to children.
@ Con-science or i just don't want to respond. there's that, also.
There's a right time and place for everything. Shes supposed to be so smart and be a positive example for her class-mates. Clearly she conducted herself like a foolish little brat. She gets what she deserves. So now shes on the news and face-book etc, with her horrible treatment? Stupid bit(h. She sucks
Oh dear - the trolls have come out of the woodwork.
Amazing.....
I just wonder what kind of remarks are made behind closed doors in the Principal's office, in the teacher's lounge, and on the teacher's picket line.
The principal is an idiot, the principal is also probably just playing the part of the tight-a55ed prig and is the biggest hypocrite in town, but most of all he is a COWARD for not having the stones to stand up and make a statement supporting his decision. He is not qualified for his position.
Well for one thing you don't go around saying those ugly words, just not right . course i know someone is going to disagree because people now days thinks it cute to use ugly words . I agree with the principle we sure didn't use none of those words when we graduated.
Only in Oklahoma (and often Texas) - when are these crazy-azz TeaThumpers ever gonna crawl out of the dark ages?!
Btw - good one, Susan... chuckle. Shoulda used "none of them words", though...
Words are never ugly! The people using them maybe and how they use them certainly can be, but the words are just that, words.
Those situations are not public ceremonies where families are present. Look up Spider's collapsed comment to get guidance and logic.
Toredown,
1) This is happening everywhere
2) Does a bigoted post make you think that poster is smart or ignorant? Read your post before answering.
Actually, if you are being intellectually honest (which is a huge leap of faith when it comes to liberals) , let's compare the Tea Party with the OWS movement. Not one person has ever been raped at any Tea Party event. Not one person has ever been assaulted at a Tea Party event. Not one person has ever been killed at a Tea Party event. Not one single police officer has ever been spat on at a Tea Party event. The police have never had to forcibly remove Tea Partiers from a public park. In fact, when over a million Tea Partiers showed up at the National Mall in Washinton, D.C., some of them exercising their Constitutional right to bear arms, not only were there no incidents reported by the DC cops, but they actually cleaned up the place when they left! It just drives you crazy that the Tea Party, as a grass-roots organization, has no acknowledged political leader for you to demonize and so you must attack the organization itself and try to paint its individual members as somehow being less "enlightened" than you. The only people in the Dark Ages here are you liberals.
Just amazing! We have mass murders, we are at war, people can't get medical care, families are living on the street......
But we're worried about a single word.
What is truly obscene here?
Susan, she said the word "HELL".
"Hell" hasn't been an "ugly word" for at least 3 decades.
NeighborOfTheBeast - the Tea Party is nothing but a tool of the Republican party to divide the Populist vote. They were founded by two multi-billionaire brothers (do the math).
Before you criticize the OWS movement, remember that the REAL Boston Tea Party was indeed breaking the law - to make a political statement. Had they have been a bunch of orderly conformists defending an entrenched system (like the current so-called Tea Party), we would still be a British colony loyal to the crown.
Actually the tea party is nothing more than a re-branded version of the John Birch Society of which one of it's founders was none other than the two multi billionaire brothers Father.
And just think, if she would have said "Jesus" in any sort of faith-based way they would have taken her to jail.
If she had said Jesus, they would build a statue in her honor.
You are seriously not from Oklahoma to make that kind of a comment. Nothing wrong with saying Jesus or Hell in a sentence. These people who have stolen her diploma should get more familiar with the word since that is probably their ultimate destination for being such flaming bigots.
What if she had said "Jesus, how the hell should I know?" Do you think that would have confused the principal?
Isn't "hell" a ligitimate locale?
Well.............................
He cannot legally withhold her diploma. Besides, when the highschool is asked for her transcripts are they going to withhold them? I doubt it. I hope she sues the devil out of the Oklahoma school system. A very smart and very brave girl.
NH...
Hell, michigan, Hell, california and hell creek, montana come to mind.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081024155131AAlIuNo
I thought Okalahoma was Hell?
To see the real irony, check post # 3.1!
Your probably right!
Time to bring the ACLU down on the School Board's smug little hineys, I say.
What would the principal do if he is at the Grand Cayman islands and goes into the town called Hell? Drive quickly out of it like a bat out of.....?
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage?
The Neo- Blasphemy...?
Did you notice that no one is taking your bait, Troll?
You are really getting old, con-science. The reason no one is responding to your post is that it is totally irrelevant to the situation. She didn't make a partisan political statement on a controversial topic. She used the word "hell" in appropriate context once in a sentence. Even if she had made a political statement (not apropriate in the setting no matter what the content was), it wouldn't be appropriate to withhold her diploma. Your trolling and baiting is really tiresome. Why don't you go somewhere else to do it? You're not secretly afraid of your own gay feelings, are you? Most homophobes are you know.
Religious fascists. Time for her to lawyer up and take the diploma she earned but isn't being given.
Along with some cash.
Screw that, the people of her community don't deserve to pay for that. Just toss the principal after tossing his pension. Anyone involved in this ordeal shouldn't be teaching anything or setting examples. Get someone in there that children should actually look up to, instead of some loser.
Yeah but just tossing the principle does not inherently get her the diploma. The reason for the lawyer is not to get money at the expense of the community and other students, but to coerce the school into giving her what is rightfully hers.
Okay this is going way overboard. The principal and other officials who decided to hold this girl's diploma should be lucky she didn't say F***. This girl has earn that diploma with all the hard work she did in the past 4 years, maybe they and everyone else should think about that. Last time I checked, Hell is not an offensive word at least not to 90% of the American population but that is just my opinion. She wasn't drunk or on drugs at graduation. Now that is a reason for holding her diploma. People pick and choose your battles. Mr Principal next time you use "Hell" maybe the school board should remove you from your position and remove your teaching license.
Quick to condemn aren't you "Dan the Man" (that's not what your girlfriend calls you)? Who is the real fascist, you bigot?
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage? The Neo-Blasphemy...?
Is it also fascism when people are boycotted for expressing their opinion on that matter, or just a routine cleansing in the name of advancement of the species... ? : P
Look, if you are religious, then I can see being concerned if anyone takes THE LORD'S NAME in vain.
But, HELL is NOT a name of God, and therefore should not be of concern to the principals in the Bible Belt.
Frankly, I hear more said about HELL from my pastor, on Sunday at church than from any other place.
Shame on this community for allowing such antiquated views to be enforced.
Pay attention to the story, JoAnna. It was just the principal, not any of the school board members, who made this stupid decision. Gone4Now is right. This girl just needs her diploma, not money. She is already getting a full-ride scholarship and her future looks very promising. The Principal is an idiot who needs to be replaced. End of story.
Neighbor, it may have been the principal who made the decision, but it was the school board who declined comment thereon.
This underscores how utterly rediculous high school is. What is the principal going to do, keep her from going to university?
Dumbass punk kid, there is a reason why you have to submit the speech before hand. If you can't figure that out then you are not really that real world smart.
Yeah, they should have jailed her for blasphemy. That would show her.
You have some nerve calling a 4.0 straight A student dumb. You might want to look at a dictionary.
I say burn her at the stake, she's obviously a witch.
!st of all, since when is hell a swear word??? Look it up. It is a "place", if only mythologically. If it weren't for Dante, hell would be a word never given a thought of more than twice.
Nav, I guess if someone would know about dumbass, you would, since you see it in the mirror every time you look. On a serious note, the school doesn't have a leg to stand on. If they don't reverse their decision, some attorney will fold it up and shove it square up their collective asses.
Under sharia law, she must now be stoned to death and gang raped, in no particular order.
Guy, that is CHRISTIAN LAW if you actually read the Old Testament but most chistians are ignorant of their own faith.
Old Testament, New Testament, both books written by men. I hope I get to see the Next Testament and how PC everything in it is.
Sorry srm1 - you clearly missed the joke...
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage? .... The Neo-Blasphemy..?
Nav-399861 - what kind of grades did YOU get in school? I'll bet hers are a HELL of a lot better than yours were.
You sound like as big of an idiot as that principal....
she is screwed on both ends here. she said hell in the bible belt and used a religious term during a school function so the ACLU wont even help her now.
welcome to the real world honey.
personally i could care less but i would have banned you for this instead - "was inspired by the movie “The Twilight Saga: Eclipse" when she wrote the speech."
Exactly!!!!
Except she doesn't need anyone's help since she's on a full scholarship. Nice try, though.
How could anyone be inspired by such a pathetic movie. What this generation gets behind, I just don't know.
and yet her parents generation got behind Woodstock and still brags about it to this day.
"Hell" is in the bible... idiots! I'm generally not in favor of litigation, but I hope she sues the hell out of that school!
Well Hell is in the bible, but I'm sure they would rather her, not to say that in the speech, LOL! They are probably thinking that by her saying that, they would get a bad rep., like their school promotes the bad usage of language or somthing. Little did they know this going to give them a bad rep. I think it's funny, she obviously knew she was going to get in trouble for it though, bcuz she should have wrote it in the essay she handed to them. But she didn't, she had to have known already the school was going to tell her something. I mean you don't go to the school for four years at the same place without knowing things that their strict about. But I think not giving her the diploma is pretty low, she worked for that. I mean straight A's really? At least she gets a full paid ride to college kudos to her, but I hope she does get her diploma one way or another!
Yes , that was pathetic....
Monica, the irony of it all is that this news story will bring their school a worse reputation than her using "hell" in her speech.
Monica, the real irony is that this news story will put a worse reputation on this school than her using the word "hell," ever would.
Monica, the real irony is that this story will bring the school a worse reputation than a student using the word "hell," ever would. Why did that go through three times?
Yeah maybe she souldn't of said "hell" in her speech because if offended some. But how many sit in the pews on Sunday and are told they are "going" to HELL for their actions?... When your in church and hell is being said in your church every week, why is it suddendly a "bad" word? Maybe the preachers should quit saying that word and others would not follow in their footsteps
I would say that anyone who is offended by the word "hell" definitely needs to get out more...
Lawyer...
What the hell? Seriously? What the fck!
BTW, she belongs at Harvard with that 4.0 GPA, with full scholarship!!!!
Can someone at Harvard call her please?
Wow. Talk about a stupid reason to hold a diploma. Lets see how long it takes her principal to issue an apology now that it is national news. 1st amendment rights apply.
That would be my demand, if I were her. I would get an attorney, file a suit, include my legal fees, and refuse to back down until a formal apology from the principal is issued publically.
Yes her principal can give a puplic apology to her and her family right after they lose to her in court and pay her millions for violating her civil and constitutional rights.
Take them to court girl and show them where him and the teachers Union can stuff their Un-Democratic Liberal BS ideals
No doubt the ACLU would love to sink their teeth into this one - even if the parent's lawyers don't rip the school board to shreds. This principal effectively signed his resignation.
not even close-- we're talking about the RED state of OK. and the hindering of free speech. thats a right wing cause --just ask Conservative prosecutor Kenneth Starr who took a free speech case to the supreme court to deprive school kids of any first amendment rights. Bong hits for Jesus.
and the conservatively packed SCOTUS took them away.
Otis 1st amendment rights only guarantee you the right to speak without fear of being carted off to jail. No where does the right to free speech come with guarantees of no consequences. I personally, think the principal is way out of line and rather moronic, but her right to speak doesn't mean that there may or may not be consequences. Example, you are free to tell your boss he's an idiot, but your consequence may be that he fires you.
yea that is very truthful, I'll have to agree with you, "GreenChileGranny"!
So let's see, you would act in an impolite way at a public school function, and then make demands when you were reminded of the values of the community you reside in?
If you don't want to be stereotyped, don't fulfill the description. Unless of course, that's your goal as bait, or fluff to attract the ones who will respond to you in disagreement so you can make persona and group insults and generalizations all of which are examples of intolerance which relegates you to the category of not to be taken seriously.
Con-science,
Impolite eh? If saying hell is impolite then it is among the most minor of impolities. But lets face the truth of the matter- the most reasonable excuses why the principal would act in this manner over such a non-event. Maybe he is a super-prig enforcing the standards of school life from 150 years ago- or maybe he is trying to enforce his own religious standards on the student body. Then again maybe he is just using his authority to pester this girl and is a bully of sorts. My own feeling is that the principal tried using her speech to extort sex from her, but she didn't recognize what he was doing and really thinks the issue is about from "heck" to "hell"- and here we are. But no matter why the principal is doing this, he has really fvcked up and the attention of the Nation is on him. The best thing he can do is hand over her sheepskin and let this incident fade off into memory. Somehow I doubt that he is that smart. He got up on the soapbox and is too proud to just step down and walk away.
What the hell is wrong with these school officials? Jesus used the word "hell" (check out Matthew 16) and even condemned the hypocrites of his times to hell (check out Matthew 23). If any apology should be issued it needs to come from these spiritually constipated hypocrites running this school (into the ground). Kudos to the valedictorian for having the courage of her convictions.
that is Luke 16 where the rich man goes to hell for ignoring the poor...
I just want to make sure everyone knows, the article didn't say anything about the lord, or bible, or anything of that sort. It frankly stated that the school would not give the girl her diploma, because she said the word HELL! Not that the school is a bunch of church goers and they will not stand for that kind of talk in their facility! Just thought I would throw that one out there! HEHE
Did the principal not hear the Vice president of the United Sates use the F..K word on national TV and the President snicker when he did? So a little hell word at a graduation is a far cry from F..K at the white house. The Chief of white house staff, Rahm Emanuel, had filth flowing from his mouth the whole tenure of this office. the president and Vice President set the bar for morals.
Its a high school diploma and your a Valedictorian. Tell them to keep it, you won't need it anyways...you will likely earn many more meaningful diplomas.
This is blatant proof as to how worthless a high school diploma is.
I think the principal probably thought "She said 'hell'!? No diploma for her!" and then thought "...bah, 'hell' is nothing but I'll take it from her anyway because who can get a real job like mine with a piece of paper like that? Real workers use college diplomas and personal connections to get their mindless goalless menial-paperwork money! Guffaw!"
It's the principle of the thing.
It's stuff like this that makes me ashamed to be an okie...
The lady already is going to college, so right now the biggest loser is the school here (and in particular the individual "geniuses" who thought out this punishment). Because of this, Oklahomans in general, and the town of Prague in particular get pidgeonholed in the stereotype of dumb hicks or hypocritical tyrants.
Hopefully this gets resolved quickly for everyone's sake...but NEVER forgotten!
To hell with that. I am sure they won't have any problem finding a good attorney who will take this on for free.
No need to geta a free lawyer... it will be the School District that will pay for their stupid azz principals actions... I would suspend him pending outcome and the fire him without any recommendations just for being the stupid azz he is.
This is another example of a Principal seeking early retirement! His job is over!~~! He can apologize all he wants, she doesn't even need A DIPLOMA! She now has the Topic for her PHd thesis and she will get an apology when hell freezes over. OK Oklahoma, you have just given us all a reason to NEVER move to your backward state!
Wow, Bobby. Condemning an entire state and all of its residents based on the actions of one very stupid man? Please tell me that no one has ever done anything stupid in the state you live in, unless that state is denial.
The good folks of Oklahoma deserve better than to be painted as unenlightened religious zealots, even if they did steal my NBA team.
Political correctness running wild.
How did you decide this was political correctness? This was a principal in the Bible Belt deciding he didn't like the idea of a valedictorian using an "offensive" word during her speech.
She can just laugh at this tool as she takes that full ride scholarship.
Which is the real point here. This young lady has proven herself to be attractive, bright and good natured achiver and has a wonderful future in front of her -- This principle will never be anything more than what he is right now. he is flexing what little muscle he has for as long as he can. I am sure that some people @ the ceremony did not expect to hear any "bad words" -- but this 2012 -- not 1845. Even if it is OK -- Time to grow up! There is a lot worst language that could (and indeed is ) used every day on TV , in movies and in the high school halls ways across this nation --If "hell" is the worst word that this guy has ever heard or it shocked him so much -- he must be quite the "delicate flower" and should not be in charge of running a high school in this day and age for any number of reasons. In the end, this young lady will get her degree and maybe a nice cash settlement after she suits the school district and this man for attempting to deny her civil rights, freedom of speech and expression and for character assassintation. Any lawyer will love this case -- easy money!
Yeah, easy money. Let's sue a school district that already has budget problems. Let's take away books, school supplies, teachers and after-school activities from all the other students in the entire school district just to apply a salve to one incredible young woman with a very bright future who already has a full-ride scholarship and needs no money.
What a great idea.
Idiot.
Neighborofthebeast:
Actually, the GOP has been taking away the books, school supplies, teachers, and after school activities from all the students in the entire US public school system. You didn't know that every GOP governorin all 50 States cut Public Education fundings first in their budgets? They also do not like public education. Where have you been in the last 20 or so years?
Did the District ever hear of something called free speech? Give the woman her diploma or give her a pile of cash when they sue and win....
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage?
The Neo-Blasphemy...?
What was she thinking, for heaven's sake?!!
She was thinking she was in Prague, Oklahoma not Prague in the Czech Republic.
That this is America!
Who the HELL is this song HJ or whatever you sign in as??! Go to hell, for heavens sake.
Hey BobbyT-3200978 lets not get all riled up, it's an article after all! There is no need for all that, show some education. Or at the least manners!
You're kidding...? Miss manners maybe you should look at all the insults flying around here, the stereotyping, the bigotry, the intolerance... . why if you were fair minded you might have your work cut pout for you.
The principle is an idiot! Hell is not even a curse word. It is a imaginary place where supposedly naughty people go. I wonder if she used heaven, would the same reaction followed?
In that context, it is a curse word that, through continued use and societal familiarity has lost most of its sting. I'm sure most kids these days don't even realize it's significance. Just like when they are trying to trick you they will say (and spell) SIKE not even being aware that when they read the word PSYCH that that is, in fact, what they were saying and meaning!
beadarg writes that hell isn't even a curse word. My response: What the hell? If you don't think it's a curse word then when I tell you to "Go to Hell" you shouldn't be offended, right? Didn't think so! Also, it's principal not principle!
The principal would be better off spending his time as a bathroom attendant. At least then if he withheld the "papers" he'd soon be up to his neck in you know what.
This guy should be the one to write an apology for ever thinking he was fit to supervise a school.
That is too funny! :)
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage?
The Neo-Blasphemy...?
My suggestion is for her to mail a copy of her college diploma to the school when she is finished in 4 years
I see no need to apologize to the high school when she's on her way to college. That piece of paper isn't worth the ink it's printed on. The only thing that matters is that she graduated. The actual diploma is not needed.
Don't look back, sweetheart. Never look back.
I agree, I just hope she doesn't try to party in college profusely and doesn't do anything other than drop out that would totally suck! Ok back to a positive note Yay College!
And we have FREE SPEECH? Right. Political correctness is gonna kill this country. Fear is the name of the game in anything citizens do now. Guilty having to prove our innocence. At least in the history books this was considered a more or less free nation. Not any more.
First - This isn't a free speech violation.
Second - How do you decide a principal acting alone because he was angry about her using an "offensive" word was political correctness?
First Mizzoo's Todd Akin and now Prague, OK. Guess that midwest drought has caused brains to shrivel up and die too. Ignorant bastards.
Sounds like a clear cut violation of her first amendment rights, and in turn the fact that the diploma is hers alone in no case should anyone associated with the school ( which is government funded i assume) be able to withhold her property, this alone could be classified as a 4th amendment violation as well. This country needs to quit trying to put statues on people representing themselves in any way, she is an individual and this is nonsense. Another clear cut case of people in our country using any power they poses to manipulate our god given rights. I am proud of her not writing a bull@!$%# apology because there is none warranted.
What an idiot principal.
Here is David Smith's email address. He is the Prague High School Principal. dsmith@prague.k12.ok.us write to him explaining what a bad decision this is.
Good for you!!!!!! Now he'll have an idea krystalnacht must have felt like.
You would think that with all the collective knowledge contained within a school they would have at least heard rumors of the U.S. Constitution and the 1st amendment. Would it have been an issue if she had said ‘Heaven only knows’? I doubt it. It will be interesting to find out how good the town's insurance is.
Oh SWEET IRONY! I just went to the school's web site: http://www.prague.k12.ok.us/
Turns out they are the 'Home of the Red Devils'. Too funny!
That is too funny
the bong hits 4 Jesus case in the scotus took away the first amendment rights of students. thank you Conservatives --those who scream the loudest about having their rights taken away are the ones fine with taking away the rights of others.
Wow!! Talk about a Win-win case for the girl. Home of the Red Devils, indeed. (Just checked to make sure of Prague, OK, high school, Red Devils). They really handed her a winning hand for court. That principal will be lucky if he doesn't go Bye! Bye! LOL Funny
That is absolutely hysterical. He is actually holding her diploma for saying the word hell at a school where their mascot is the red devil. Umm, let me see, you take a group of teenagers and put them in a school for four years that exposes them on a daily basis to images of the devil, encourages them to cheer and shout for the devil at sporting events, pep rallies, etc. and you have the audacity to withhold her diploma for saying the word hell. I could win this case for her and I am not an attorney!!! The principal is a moron and the school board has to be having convulsions over the thought of the money this is about to cost the district, not to mention the embarrassment.
Thank you AllAboutJustice and vor-744944 - you both said what I'm thinking much better than I would have said it because I'm so angry, I can barely make sense. I hope this guy gets canned and run out of town on a rail...oh wait, they don't do that anymore - too bad....he shouldn't be anywhere near a school since his thinking capacity is clearly conspiculous by its absence!
They do't do that anymore..... Are your Freakin kidding me : P Where have you been, on the moon?
Wonder how the opinions on free speech would shift if she had used then opportunity to mention that she does not favor Gay marriage?
the Neo-Blasphemy...?
saying the word HELL...is nothing close to the same as GAY MARRIAGE...i get the feeling you went this same type of school...now maybe for who you are married to that marriage is HELL to them...now there is my free speech...and thank you...
Con-science is vying for troll status.
Con-Science,
I have seen your above comment multiple times on this thread. Please only post comments once and trust that we will read it.