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Subscribe to RSSNEW ORLEANS — As Louisiana debuts one of the nation’s most extensive private-school voucher programs, deep divides persist over who should be accountable for ferreting out academic failure and financial abuse: the government or parents.
Across the country, vouchers have resurged in a big way over the last two years—both as a form of school choice and a political lightning rod. Republican governors in Louisiana, Indiana, New Jersey and other states have championed them as a solution to the challenges besetting public education. More recently, Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney joined the chorus, saying he hopes to turn an eight-year-old voucher program in Washington, D.C. into a “national showcase.”
About 5,600 students and 119 private schools will participate in Louisiana’s new statewide voucher program this fall.
Much of the debate over vouchers centers on whether they should exist at all (partly because the term is so combustible, many politicians have opted for the milder term “scholarship” to describe new programs). But in states like Louisiana and Wisconsin, where vouchers are already a fait accompli, policymakers are just as divided over how much government regulation participating private schools should face.
On one side are the free-market purists who argue that parents provide the best form of oversight. Under this mindset, families receiving school vouchers can and should be counted on to decide what constitutes a quality education for their children — even if that includes sending their kids to schools teaching that dragons are real, or that the Ku Klux Klan worked in the service of justice.
On the other side are those who argue that the government provides the best form of accountability, particularly when public tax dollars are involved. Under this mindset, only substantial advance vetting of participating voucher schools can prevent widespread fraud and abuse.
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“Unfortunately, the political debate is still on ideological grounds: ‘I believe in government,’ or ‘I believe in the market,’ ” said Jeffrey R. Henig, a professor of political science and education at Teachers College, Columbia University.
But Henig and others see more consensus in research and academic circles. There, even some of the most vociferous champions of vouchers now believe a free-market approach to schooling needs limits.
Howard Fuller, the founder and director of Marquette University’s Institute for the Transformation of Learning and a long-time voucher supporter, says he continues to believe in the importance of school choice for low-income families. But he no longer believes a free-market approach to accountability will safeguard taxpayer dollars and the well-being of children.
“Parent choice alone will not guarantee quality,” he said.
‘Tactical’ privatization
Vouchers never completely died: Louisiana, Ohio and Wisconsin all created or significantly expanded programs between 2006 and 2011. However, the debate was far more muted in the final years of George W. Bush’s presidency and the early years of the Obama administration. During that period, a group of moderate Democrats and Republicans coalesced around a vision of education reform that featured greater parental choice (usually in the form of charter schools) and stricter accountability provisions (usually in the form of testing) for public-school teachers and students.
That coalition still exists, and charters continue to dwarf vouchers in both growth and overall size. But over the last two years, several ambitious Republican politicians trying to make a name for themselves — and distinguish themselves from Democrats on education—have gravitated back to vouchers. In 2011, more than 30 states introduced school voucher bills, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. That was an increase of more than 300 percent from the previous year, when nine voucher bills were introduced.
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Henig has identified three types of privatization: “pragmatic” privatization aims to force government to do a better job; “systemic” privatization represents a broad weakening or erosion in the government’s role; and “tactical” privatization is designed to advance the political interest of a party or candidate. While voucher advocates may be motivated by all three goals, tactical privatization appears to be fueling at least some of the current efforts, he says.
“Because of broader battles, there’s pressure on Republicans to more sharply differentiate themselves by aligning with pro-market, anti-government positions,” said Henig. “It makes for a clearer, sharper story line.”
Indeed, while the political confederacies surrounding vouchers have historically been complex—allying Democrats who view it as a social-justice issue with extreme right-wing politicians in some cases—recent debates have fallen along more traditional party lines.
Concerns about fraud
Accountability has long been an Achilles’ heel for voucher advocates. For years, schools in a Milwaukee program could receive hundreds of thousands in public funds each year if they met a few very minimal standards. Up until 2005, the primary requirements were that schools have a building occupancy permit from the city and enrolled students. They also had to meet the state’s definition of a non-public school, but that was “very nominal, and purposefully so,” said Tony Evers, the Wisconsin state superintendent.
Many participants in the program were established Catholic and Lutheran schools, but a significant number emerged only after the voucher program started. “You had these well-intended operators who had absolutely no idea about running a school,” said Evers.
In at least a few cases, the problems extended beyond naiveté. A convicted rapist founded one school, Alex’s Academics of Excellence. Despite the founder’s criminal record, Alex’s managed to attract families for several years, continuing to do so even after numerous evictions and allegations of illegal drug use on campus. At a second school, Mandella School of Science and Math, the principal — who also founded the school — used proceeds from state voucher payments to buy two Mercedes-Benz automobiles.
The state tightened up on accountability, requiring participating schools to earn pre-accreditation, among other changes. Between 2009 and 2012, a board within Howard Fuller’s institute at Marquette vetted new applicants. The board set a high bar, with only 13 of 103 prospective school operators making it through the approval process over that time period, or about 13 percent.
The pre-accreditation process “kept out scores of schools that would have failed,” said Evers.
Fuller and Evers believe low-income parents want what is best for their children. But they might still be enticed to a severely sub-par school by a slick marketing campaign—or out of desperation.
“A lot of the mom-and-pop school operators were reaching out to friends and relatives,” said Evers. “The marketing is as local as it can get.”
The future of vouchers in Louisiana
Louisiana’s new voucher program relies more on back-end than front-end accountability, a source of contention for critics who argue that it has opened the door to financial abuse and academic failure.
Although most of the schools are run by established entities like local archdioceses, red flags have already been raised about a few operators: A blogger reported that a self-proclaimed prophet and apostle is in line to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in voucher payments for a school called Light City Christian Academy. The operator of another participating school, Conquering Word Christian Academy, is under investigation for FEMA fraud. And it’s unclear whether a third school, New Living Word, has enough teachers and space to serve the dozens of students it plans to accept through the voucher program.
(Officials at Conquering Word and New Living Word did not return calls seeking comment for this story. And when a reporter visited Light City Christian Academy school last week, officials said they did not have time to talk and that no one would be available for a phone conversation.)
State Superintendent John White said Conquering Word will not be allowed to accept any new students through the program this year. But students who attended in previous years through a New Orleans-specific voucher program will still be eligible for scholarships. Light City will enroll 80 students through the program, and New Living Word will enroll 165 (about half of the seats that school leaders requested). In the latter case, the school signed a memorandum of understanding addressing facilities concerns and authorizing quarterly site visits by state officials.
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White said the accountability provisions impose a “moderate screen” on new school applicants and “extremely swift back-end consequences” for private schools that underperform.
However, White has refused to provide records on that screening process until after the school year is already under way. He said state officials rejected applications from 10 schools because they did not meet criteria laid down in the initial law. After developing additional regulations, they removed two others and reduced the number of seats available at several schools. With 119 private schools participating, that means the state approved about 90 percent of applicants — compared to 13 percent in Milwaukee, although in that city most participating schools were grandfathered in by the time the approval board was created.
Students receiving vouchers in Louisiana take the same standardized tests as public-school students. If a private school has at least 40 voucher students enrolled in tested grades (or at least 10 students per tested grade), the school’s overall performance must meet a certain threshold — the same threshold that public schools must meet to avoid closure or reconstitution — for it to continue accepting new voucher students.
This year, however, only about a quarter of participating schools will enroll more than 40 voucher students in tested grades; those schools encompass about 65 percent of the program’s enrollment. State officials say they anticipate the accountability provision will capture 85 percent of students by the program’s fourth year.
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That’s too little, too late, some critics say. “The state needed to establish academic eligibility requirements [on] the front-end,” said Peter Reichard, projects manager at the Bureau of Governmental Research, an independent research organization in New Orleans. In a statement, BGR officials said, “Short of no accountability standards at all, it is difficult to imagine a lower standard of performance than what the proposed system offers.”
White argues that his oversight program relies on a healthy mixture of market forces and governmental oversight. “Responsible policy always tries to empower citizenry by not over-regulating, but at the same time by being unforgiving when it comes to failure,” he said, adding that the plan is to “regulate failure by not accepting failure.”
But in a sign that he might be bowing to pressure from skeptics, White said last week that he will likely seek to tighten requirements for prospective private-school operators in the state — regardless of whether they accept voucher students.
Homework hassle: When kids struggle and parents can’t help
In the meantime, future voucher policy (as well as Gov. Bobby Jindal’s education legacy) may well be shaped by what happens on the ground in Louisiana this school year.
Henig said the issue will become more volatile for Jindal if “what comes in over the transom makes broad support of market principles and choice look irresponsible.”
Sarah Carr, a contributing editor at The Hechinger Report, is the author of Hope Against Hope, which tells the story of the New Orleans public schools post-Katrina. The book will be released by Bloomsbury Press in February 2013.
This story, "School vouchers make a comeback, stir concerns about quality," was produced by The Hechinger Report, a nonprofit, nonpartisan education-news outlet based at Teachers College, Columbia University.
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All children should be getting a quality education with both the school and the parents participating in what qualifies as a quality education. Seems to me the schools are getting way more say so than parents. As a matter of fact, parents are pretty much left out of the process. It's obvious that our kids need an emphasis on math and science. Yet, if the students are not meeting that challenge, the schools change the requirement, in effect dumbing down the requirements. This makes the kids look smarter than they are, thus making the school system look better at teaching than they are. There should be across the board, across state lines, across school systems, base core requirements. Or, we can keep things as they are and watch our kids slip farther and farther behind their contemporaries around the world.
Isn't the "across the state requirements" the "no child left behind" law? Having a minimum standard isn't going to help if you don't have the means to effectively push kids to achieve that standard.
From what I've heard from school teachers and administrators (both locally and on places like NPR), the main problem in public schools is a lack of class discipline. Parents could help on this, but most parents I know think their children are angels and everyone else must be at fault.
Having said that, we do have an exception where I live (and our local schools always do very well on standardized tests). Our school system has a policy that parents have to opt for 1 of 2 discipline approaches - if their child is disruptive they have to either pick them up and take them home, or let the school discipline as they see fit (which includes spanking).
I seriously disagree that we need emphasis on math and science. We need a well-rounded curricula, so that our kids can see where their interest fits and what they can do. Just because you emphasize one curriculum, doesn't mean we are going to turn out people who will be strong in math and science. I am math challenged. I try desperately but higher math is just too abstract for me and I struggle. And, some areas of science bore me. But, my reading and English scores blow everyone out of the water. My daughter is the same, except she is also a science wiz. But, higher level math is a struggle for her, unless it is attached to science and, even then, it can be difficult. Anything higher than Algebra for her is a horrible struggle for her. Some people's gifts lie elsewhere. We need to stop with narrow-minded thinking on what equals quality education and realize that not one type will lead to success.
I truly believe the problem is the government, or if not the government the parent, or the neighborhood or something. The problem has to be anything but the student. Kind of makes you wonder how Lincoln ever learned anything without free public schools, vouchers, parents or hell even electricity.
Turn off the TV, music and partying and read. Do your homework!
The problem is everyone, as everyone keeps trying to pretend that public-sizing the private school systems will preclude the need to fix the public school system.
Our education system is not only a failure, it’s an embarrassment.
When the majority of Americans read at an 8th grade level this is not a recent occurrence. This has not happened because of a few missteps, it’s because of another massive government bureaucracy, infiltrated by corrupt unions, that proves again it is incapable of creating any social program that works efficiently and affordably.
I recently received this following plan from a friend who developed this for the Milwaukee, Wisconsin school system which had 94 of the 228 public schools that missed the Adequate Yearly Progress (AYP) requirement. The numbers are based on their per child costs but can be adjusted to any payment value.
Here’s the plan.
First, abolish the federal Department of Education and the state Departments of Public Instruction.
Next, cut funding from the current roughly $11,000 per student we now pay in Wisconsin to $8,000.
You’re welcome, taxpayers.
Divide that sum equally between the teachers and the principal. With a nominal class size of 30 students, a teacher’s baseline annual salary would be $120,000. ($8,000 x 30 = $240,000 ÷ 2 = $120,000)
You’re welcome, teachers.
Then multiply the teacher’s base salary by the rate of student proficiency he/she produces as measured by standard testing. We’re not talking straight A’s here, just proficiency.
You’re welcome, suddenly proficient students.
A teacher that produces 100% proficiency would earn $120,000; a teacher that achieves only 40% proficiency would earn only $48,000. Both would be compensated fairly.
You’re welcome, good teachers; talk to the hand, bad teachers.
Here’s the tricky part: the balance of their unpaid baseline is rebated to the parents…of the kids who were proficient. Call it No Parent Left Behind: either take responsibility for your kids’ education or pay more.
You’re welcome, responsible parents.
And to you irresponsible parents: you have been dragging the rest of us down for too long. Shut up, man up, and get your kids educated. Do your job.
Did I mention teachers must pay their own retirement savings and health care costs? A married couple of great teachers would earn $240k; they can afford it. If they can handle a class size of 35 they could bring home $272k.
Teachers will be drumming for the Bush tax cuts to be permanent.
And don’t tell me a good teacher can’t make 35 kids proficient. Mrs. Lindroth did it in Ironwood with a bunch of un-medicated, demonic 6th graders in 1966. Back then, she did it without teachers’ aides or social workers or iPads. She taught and we learned; that was the division of labor.
But what about the teachers’ unions? What about the conventions? What about the masters’ degrees? Knock yourself out, teachers; you can spend your own money on anything you think will improve your skills. Who better to judge the return on investment than the teacher making the investment?
The other $4,000 goes to the principal to run the school. A school with 300 kids will get a baseline budget of $1,200,000 to pay administrators, maintenance, and facility expenses – capital budgets will be handled separately via bond resolutions. The principal gets a salary of $120k plus half of whatever he/she saves from the budget baseline.
You’re welcome, good principals.
Just like the teachers, principals’ baseline salary is reduced according to the aggregate proficiency of the school. That’s what prevents greedy and stupid cost gutting; overhead will not be cut if it legitimately improves proficiency.
You’re welcome again, proficient students.
So there you have it, teachers - compete for your salary like the rest of us. Your income will be based on your ability to get those kids to perform, just like ours is when they come to work in our factories and firms after you are done with them.
I think most of you are great teachers and would quickly max out if we got the government and your unions off your back and out of your classroom. That is, if you are reading this you are great; the slackers are off sulking and whining about how bad they got it under fair competition.
Screw ‘em; the slackers have run the show for long enough. They will quit after the first year their pay is cut, and then we will be done with them for good.
You’re welcome, everyone.
This will make room for someone with talent and passion that actually wants to teach. Oh, yeah, and make $120k with summers off. Teaching will attract the best and brightest again. Competition will bring out the best in everyone; it always does.
While monetary incentives may seem crass and unseemly to education elitists, they work. That is the only reason we use them to drive improvements in business performance. And to be blunt, good intentions haven’t done squat for public education; a half century of steady decline in world rankings tells us so.
Great teachers deserve great compensation, good parents do too and so do great administrators. And we all deserve great schools; especially our children, whose success in life will be no greater than the proficiencies and values we have equipped them with. How do you improve educational proficiency? Pay for it. And don’t pay for anything else.
Does anyone think a better plan will come from the federal Department of Education? From the Department of Public Instruction? From the Governor’s office? From the Legislature? From WEAC? From any school board or superintendent in the State?
Me neither. That is why ultimately, we need to get the government out of the education business altogether and let choice and competition work the magic. In the meantime, let’s pay for proficiency and not lose another generation to ignorance.
Romney/Ryan 2012 for real Americans
Hey Jim,
More or less I am with you. The big problem, to the extent it becomes one--I think it would given the experiences we've seen in places like Atlanta--would be educational fraud in order to inflate proficiency. Your basic premise though, that solutions will never come from the government, is spot on.
In California we spend about the same amount as you in Wisconsin, and for this we have very limited success. About half our university registrants need remedial math and English courses just to get up to the 10th grade standard. What it boils down to is simple. Public education as it is presently constructed is a failure. We spend too much, far too much, for far too little in return.
The left will explain that trusting markets is a disaster in the making. Yet the left, routinely, argues we need to spend ever more money on education because it is already a disaster. It seems to me that, generally anyhow, the left played hookie during logic and economics courses.
Hey Jim -
AYP was designed so that eventually every school would be failing. And how do you decide who gets the students whose parents don't give a damn? (that being fully 50% or more of parents out there) Do the teachers "take turns" with the class that can't progress? How do you include special ed? Currently they are figured into that AYP regardless of ability. How about non-native English speakers? Same deal.
I like your example from 1966. Surely nothing has changed since then and today's teachers can discipline in the same ways. I hear respect for teachers among students and parents as at an all time high...
But hey, good luck with the ranting and all.
Instead of arguing about it for decades, why not just imitate what their contemporaries around the world are doing? Problem solved!
You mean put academics ahead of sports and extracurriculars? LOL Like that would ever happen. School districts bitch and moan about not having money, yet they seem to have plenty of it to build a new rubberized track around the football field which has a home side bleachers made of concrete with a press box at the top. When it comes time to pay for the students though they have no money to spare, so the mil levy has to go up to raise more taxes. This country doesn't value education like our contemporaries do. If we did, our education system would have never gotten this bad.
Doug, part of the mess we are in is due to our attempts to imitate what their contemporaries are doing around the world.
For a very long time, the American educational system was producing students who were innovators, creative problem solvers, and leaders in their fields.
Educators from all around the world came here to see what we were doing. And now, they are shaking their heads in disbelief as we try to adopt the very policies they were trying to change.
Somewhere around 1980 somebody decided our schools were not "accountable" enough. It has been downhill since then, with the most precipitous decline following "No Child Left Behind" (The 2001 version of ESEA).
If we want to look internationally for a system that could help us mend the damage from NCLB, Finland is a good choice. Here's a good, reasonably short description of why:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
gday67 has a point about priorities. Students with athletic ability should be given the chance to excel in their area, as should students with artistic, academic, technical and natural abilities. Our resources should probably not go disproportionately to any one group.
There are a lot of children out there smart regardless of the economy class who are smart. These children need to have the advantage to shine. If a vouchers helps the underprivilege child get that push into a great school than so be it. The middle class always think they can do it. Without anyone's help, well than they shouldn't complain. let them do it! As we all know the rich don't need any help!
So I have to work my ass off, and sacrifice for my kids to attend public school because I have the audacity to have a job and husband before I have kids and the welfare recipient popping kids out like a freaking Pez dispenser gets a freebie?
All kids deserve a great education and if she is getting it free, I as a tax payer should be getting it free. Why should I pay for her kid and mine?
But vouchers WONT help the underprivileged kids, in the long run. Once the public schools are smashed, vouchers will not keep up with the cost of education, just like the whole Medicare voucher plan. Even now, vouchers are a joke. Most private schools cost a lot more than many of the voucher proposals allow for. What are poor parents suppose to do when a voucher won't cover all of the tuition, let alone the cost of uniforms, books and other extras? Vouchers are nothing but a handout for those who can already afford private schools and for those who want to privatize the schools and provide substandard education to the poor.
So let me see if I get this straight: The Democrat Party consistently screams about "the freedom of choice" whether it is abortion/etc. How a person has the choice, nay - the RIGHT, to choose ............ unless it comes to the most important part of their life - an education.
Two parents sitting at the kitchen table just being told their "school zones" have been changed and their child must now attend High School "B" next year when they start. But the parents say they like High School "A" better!! Their child can get a better education and be more prepared for their future!!
Sorry says the local government. If we give you a choice then High School "B" won't have any students left and will close. It may not be best for your child, the government continues to say, but will be best for our community.
EXCUSE ME???? Why don't I have a CHOICE where my child goes to school!! Why must I be mandated to send my child to an inferior school!!
And then Hollywoodunderground makes a comment (and amazing that they thought it SUPPORTED their view when they said it but does the complete opposite) that since underprivileged kids can't get access to a better education then nobody should get access to a better education.
You see this is a typical difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals believe if ALL don't have access to a great school then it is unfair to let SOME go to a great school. This is EXACTLY the reason why I home-schooled both of my children. Our school system is broken and this mandated NON-CHOICE system of inferior schools is just making it worse............
So we are supposed to believe that private schools who take tax money will spend it wisely and provide better educational outcomes? Just trust them and get republicans to pass laws preventing any oversight seems to be the solution...if you take taxpayer dollars you should have a microscope shoved up your ass to make sure you aren't wasting my money...
How about shoving it up the Public schools Ass first.
The need to trust the schools is non existant. The vouchers are spent at the schools based on the parents evaluation of the results seen in their children. If a school fails to deliever a desired result, the parent spends the voucher at a different school that can provide the desired results. Far better than having some bureaucrat make these decisions based on some computer generated models !
The vouchers exist BECAUSE the govt is unaccountable and couldnt regulate a school even when they had monopoly control over it. Why is there even a question of govt ALSO regulating an attempted solution? Govt failed-- next player.
rick...you're living in disneyland.my buddy is a public school union school district custodian, works about 4 out of 8 hours a day,takes naps and plays on ebay and craigslist he makes 80k plus pension and full family bennies,smokes pot and is an alcoholic .the teachers do even less for more $.guess what ..they tried drug testing the custodians but the teachers union dropped it because the custodians union said whats good for us is good for you teachers too. teachers didn't want their pot and yeahyo threatened.case closed.
This is a great thing for the Reps cause they can send our tax dollars to private churches and keep their kids from interacting with all the illegal immigrant kids they have allowed into our country.
Proponents of vouchers say it will allow the poor childrento attend a better priovate school. This is just not true. I teach in a public school and have many friends in private school. What tehy tell me is that providing vouchrs is not going to let poor kids in. Oh a few will be allowed to make it look good but the minute vouchers become widely available the private schools are just going to raise their tuition by that amount. And they are not going to expand the number of desks available. They will simpply hand the paperwork needed for the voucher to the parents and say "Here, this will cover the increase". And they sure are not going to leave the money in the publis schools. If they have 100 students and the voucher is $3000 they would be leaving $300000 on the table. The other problem is cherry picking. Most private schools will let just anybody in. If you're a slow learner or have behavior problems it's "Sorry, we don't have room for you". This will leave the public schools with less money. Remember the publis system has to eduacate you whether you're a gifted/talented student or a special ed/behavior student.
Spatman -
Thanks for your post. Spoken like a true, union teacher.
Private schools have just as many problems as public, the difference is private schools can keep out who they don't want.
If tax money is involved there had better be oversight.
School vouchers are a gimmick. We pull a few motivated poor kids out of public schools and put them in private schools. The private schools can "cherry pick" their students. Public schools must accept all students good and bad. Public school students get tested graded and analyzed while private schools don't get scrutinized. There is a tremendous possibility for fraud in the unregulated private school system. While we play these games which may help a few students individually but hurt the overall majority of public school students we could be instituting reforms that could help all students. For example most teachers who have good reputations end up in the best schools in their districts and the inexperienced and poorer performing teachers end up in the lower performing schools. We should give high quality teachers and incentive to go into poor performing schools for a 3 or 4 year assignment. They would be a tremendous resource in helping other teachers, students, and parents. Their are other programs that could be implemented that would help more students. Pulling some highly motivated public school students out and sending them with vouchers to private schools is a waste of public funds with the smallest amount of real returns.
I never accepted this idea of holding back the smart kids so the dumb one's dont feel so bad.
They do it all the time. Why do you think we have so many dumb kids coming out of high schools nowadays and ending up in remedial classes in college?...
Sure, private schools can game the numbers and make themselves look statistically better than they really are by eliminating poor performing students. But I don't care about statistics on the student body. I care about a sample size of 2--my daughters. As their father, it's my job know whether or not they are learning, and how successful they, as individuals, are. It's my job to match their abilities to the educational environment that is BEST FOR THEM, not best for its' student body. So at certain point, those gamed statistical analyses don't matter. If all their classmates are geniuses and my girls can't keep up, then it's my job to find them a place where they are taught to their level. Conversely, if all their classmates can't pass test, but I'm convinced my girls are thriving and learning, they may just be in the best environment for them. But it's my choice.
The public school model deprives most parents of this choice. You get zoned into your school, and if it's not a good fit for your child, tough luck. You can go to some PTA meetings and scream and shout about changes you want to see, but if no one gets on board, nothing's going to change. The administration is free to look at you and say "so what are you gonna do about it?" knowing you have no real options.
In a vouchered system of school choice, if a school is not the right fit, you can explain the changes you'd like to see, and administrators have to choose between making those changes to keep you (and others that share your view) or lose enrollment. Captive markets breed contempt for the consumer, and that's exactly how most school districts treat parents-with contempt.
Justross -
Yu have hit upon one of the fallacies put forth in this ridiculously slanted article - It isn't a public or free market issue, but a public or family control issue.
I also love the comment from LA State Superintendant White: "regulate failure by not accepting failure." Like the LA public school system is solid. Hell, public schools can't protect your children from physical harm, much less teach them.
The unions hate this stuff and fight it tooth and nail. Wanna bet how many union folks are on that board is WI?
The other thing people don't realize about private and parochial schools are that the teachers are not required to be licensed (I'm a certified teacher). It's up to each individual school.
No. They have to be able to actually teach in the real world. A piece of paper is worthless.
So, if you feel that way... Take your Voucher and use it for the Public School of your choice..
Pro Choice...eh?
But people DO realize that private school students out-perform their public school counterparts by a wide margin.
Actually they don't darciesdaddy.
Cindy, many private schools have extremely qualified teachers, even though they are not licensed (and even though they often make less money and have fewer benefits than public school teachers). At the elite private schools, the majority of "unlicensed" teachers have advanced degrees from Ivy League schools. I don't think any sensible person would argue that these teachers are unqualified simply because they lack state certification.
Yeah, you're right. That's why the Obamas send their daughters to a DC public school, right? That's why parents with their kids in private schools are trying so hard to get them into public schools, right?
Having a certificate does not make one qualified to do the work - all that means is you spent some time on the topic and passed a test. This reminds me of a company I used to work out that got bought by another company...when they found out the CFO didn't have a CPA license they fired him and replaced him with someone at double the salary...that CFO had been doing the job for over 5 years. (and the CPA they hired was an idiot they had to fire a year later)
And before you think I have something against CPA's...I'm a CPA - but I know that piece of paper doesn't make me good at my job - it just means I passed a test.
darciesdaddy, the reason the Obama's girls go to Sidwell Friends is because the public schools are not equipt to handle the security involved in taking care of the daughters of the President. Not only are the Obama girls' lives being managed but so are the other students. In a public school, that would be highly dangerous. Especially under the climate the Obamas' have been under (they have received the most death threats of any presidential family!) Sidwell Friends had Chelsea Clinton, so they already knew the protocol for handling the daughters of the President.
Ron, you and people like you are what is wrong with this country. This disregard and outright dismissal of the need for education is why are public schools are in disarray and why only the wealthy can now afford to get a college education. This worship of the lowest common denominator is just pathetic and why the rest of the world mocks us for being stupid.
Hollywood: Are you REALLY going to tell me the ONLY reason the Obama's kids are in private school is because of security for the child of a president? You mean the metal detectors on the front doors and drug deals going down in the recess area don't have anything to do with their choice? You can't really be that naive or are you simply willing to repeat that nonsense just to try and support your claim that all children are mandated to attend inferior schools?
Ahem, Amy Carter went to public school during Jimmy Carters term as President of the United States...
Angela: You are correct and that was one thing that Jimmy Carter did I thought was a good idea (actually, now that I think about it, I think that was the ONLY good idea he had - but I digress). I don't have a problem with ANYBODY going to public school but I don't like that the government FORCES you to go to public school and doesn't even give you the choice of WHICH public school to go to.
For a country that likes to tell everybody you have "choices" (abortion, birth control, etc.) but you don't have ANY choices when it comes to a child's primary or secondary education. Not even a choice as to what PUBLIC school you want to go to?
Then you ought to read my post below 15.3, because I do live in a city that has school of choice.
I did read your post noted and good post. Sounds like you and I are on the same page. I just think that our future is dependent on the success of our children and any system that restricts the ability of a parent to decide the best education for their child makes our society worse.
Sounds like you had some flexibility in deciding where your children went and that sounds great. However there are still many people who believe a county dictating which school a child should go to regardless of what is "best" is the preferred solution due to "fairness". Whenever "fairness" becomes an argument all people suffer.
Until our country puts the emphasis on the parent and the child and the PARENT decide what is best for the child we will continue to have a deteriorating educational system.
So much for dems only want to spend!
The only diff between the 2 parties is what to raise the debt on!
The only difference between Mitt the Mormon and Hussein the Muslim is
Mitt friends are Rich and Conserv and Hussein are rich and Liberal!
We need more the 2 viable parties or nothing really changes!
Yes well, the State is going to spend the money either way...So, why not spend it wisely?
In my area.. My kid goes to private school at a cost of $9,800 per year.. The Public School cost per student is about $12,000. The Private school is not perfect, but much better.
Private school parents arent pushing to get their kids into public schools. Parents have already figured out which school is better. Unfortunately the one's who need it the most, can afford it the least. Vouchers level the playing field.
But, there is no Power for the School Unions, with a Voucher system.. So......you know.
Wonder if people are more mad at unions at public schools, then private is better then public??
What?? Did you mean to throw in a thAn rather than a thEn somewhere it that? If not, it is impossible to read your post..
Public School?
mark,
I guess that's where you's mom and dads went and by what you write, seems you went to one of those public schools that make public school look bad!
The confederacy lost Mark!
separate but equal
Brown vs the Board of Education!
That kind of stuff!
"several ambitious Republican politicians trying to make a name for themselves — and distinguish themselves from Democrats on education"
Just replace "Republican" with "Democrat" and vise-verse and "Education" with any other institution or issue.
All politicians are liars and thieves and $$ is all that matters to them not human well being.
Beyond 6th Grade, our public school system is a disaster.
Beyond sixth grade ? you wish.
k-5 is where the brainwashing begins to make sure that kids never ever think outside the box and human blinders are developed.
Politicians do not want an educated society and both vouchers and charter schools are a scam.
The education system in the U.S. itself (compulsory) is archaic at best.
Doubling down on a broken system.
thewaronkids.com
If vouchers are going to occur, I want my tax money back, because I don't want to fund parochial schools.
And I don't want to fund schools that suck. Can I have my money back, too?
I'm not religious, but even I would rather have more kids going to Catholic, Jewish, and Protestant schools. At least they will be able to read, write, and do math when they graduate; they can think and learn on their own once they graduate.
I love how politicians use one bad thing in the house as the reason the whole house must come down.
Where I grow up it did not matter if the school was public or private, but rather if the school was any good!
Instead just give me all my tax dollars back and let me have the option to chose for me and my own family's fate!
Repubs and Dems! always taking our money!
No doubt. It costs $15k/year for the state to send a child to public school here in Fairbanks. Instead, I pay about $7k to send my own kid to private school. You'd think that the state would see some economy in giving kids a better education for half the price, but to the school district I am stealing $15k from them because they don't get their money if my daughter isn't in their school.
My wife and I are lower middle income, and we make serious sacrifices to keep our child in schoo. Forget vouches, how about a tax credit to cover the money I am saving the government by taking care of my own child's education?
What a touching storydarc,
but guess what? the only reason it's cheap is there is still public education but if it should go all the repubs will say when you complain about cost going up is
"Let the market correct it'sself"
especially since repub believe in no regulations and see lawsuits as "frivolous"
They would see your complaints like a "crack head" see's wet food stamps:
Useless!
Wow - lots of education haters.
Vouchers only pay for tuition, #1. They don't pay to bus your kid across town and that bus isn't coming for you. The parents have to get their kids there. The voucher isn't going to pay for books and private schools don't get free and reduced lunches either, so good luck affording that, poor people.
Private schools are not beholden to anyone and can raise their tuition by the same amount as the vouchers, having all of their current students apply for the vouchers also. This does two things -- 1) eliminates anyone who can't afford the tuition even after the voucher (they don't want those poor folks). And #2 - The money from the vouchers just get added to the coffers in private schools.
And many private schools are religiously affiliated. Public money going to fund religion is unconstitutional.
But other than these any other glaring misconceptions about them, vouchers are a great idea!
This big time hatred for government is due to the fact that the Confederacy loss the Physical Civil War but the mental war still rages on!
Someone supports Private schools over Public school..and they "Hate the Government" or "Hate Education"? Please grow up...
So, let's see. Many poor and minority families would love School Vouchers for their children.. But, that gets harder and harder with people like you who "hate the poor and Minorities"
mark,
Will you please grow up and stop thinking about the illegals and inter-city public schools.
public schools aint the problems, it's unions for public sector jobs!
especially like out in california where the unions comes before the children!
2BadpPole, the worst thing that happened after the Civil War was allowing the Union Army to destroy the South and then keeping it impoverished for so long. All it created was animosity and hatred that has lasted for the hundred years after the war, which most of the South has never recovered from.
Wow!
That's why there still mad holly?
I thought losing is bad?
Next time win!
ain't that what america told the Indians, British and Mexicans?
and black africans that your people need to stop giving us you people!
This big time hatred for government is due to the fact that the Confederacy loss the Physical Civil War
but the mental war still rages on!
Johnny Reb is still mad???
Repubs=private=Confederacy
Dems=govt=Union
Which one is better?
Unity works best!
wow. happy liberal fools day.
In every state the first thing cut was the schools system and the Police force and you wonder why quality is going down
That would make sense except that school spending goes up every year. Schools are just the first thing that they THREATEN to cut, but they don't. It's just an old trick to get people riled up. Do you really think that if you look at the budget, there are no useless projects they can cut, so the only thing they EVER find to cut is schools and police?
darc,
private and public has gone up!
stop the confed thinking!
it's public unions not public schools checkout what happens in california!
Unions before children!
This seems more like civils rights battles of the 50" & 60's instead of good public and private schools!
Not all the public schools in California are bad, at least where I live...in Long Beach.
My son attended one of the best schools in the state and was rated API 10, against other schools in the state and nation. We have school of choice, with no busing (want your kid in a school across town, and we are the fifth largest city in CA, you drive them or figure it out the city wont). My son's school is a k-8, it offers a Gate Program for the very gifted kids, but the traditional program in this school is also above average. If you get a 'c' here, it's getting an 'a' anywhere else and my kid got all 'a's' and 'b's'. To school of choice your kid into this school isn't easy, your kid is tested first and has to pass, not have any trauancies or behavior problems and must follow the schools code of conduct and dress code (which is uniforms) or they will be asked to leave the school. The schools here, if it's not your home school, do not have to put up with problem students.
Guess what, all the 'good' (reads smart, not necessarily white, but the majority is) ended up in two schools, all the rest of the schools are average, most are sub par.
Now our high schools are another subject. They are small programs with in a high school setting, the programs again are based on academics, prior behaviors, codes of conduct, etc. These high schools, for the most part are frankly, sub par, because they receive kids from the crappy schools. However, most of my son's school students end up in the high level programs, away from those students. I'm not going to say whether schools operating like this are good or bad, but we do have the lowest drop out record in the state...so I guess, that speaks for itself.
Angela--good for you winding up in a good school in a good school district. Realize that large chunks of America are not so lucky and are looking for a way out. They face administrations that are unresponsive to parents knowing that they are powerless to move their children elsewhere. Of course, administrators and unions will refer to this "academic freedom," the ability to run their school without interference from those troublesome parents. But my tax dollars should not purchase my bondage in to a system that I cannot change.
I don't think vouchers will change that. I think the only thing it will do is leave the kids who wouldn't produce even more at the mercy of the public school system. What you need to do is stop catering to the dumbest student in the class. If they can't be brought up to an acceptable level, send them to the 'stupid kid school' (yeah, it's derogatory, but it's what the 'other' kids will call it).
Why should we pay MORE for kids to go to private schools, you know they don't have to accept our problem students, right? Also, I think you totally missed the point behind my post...
If given a choice, the brighter kids go to the same schools, leaving the 'others' in sub par schools (do I think this is wrong, I don't know. Nor will I pretend to have a viable solution), and those small learning communities in high school separate the kids from each other, so just because you 'mix' the students in the high school, you really aren't in the classroom. Again, you think vouchers are going to change that? How? Kids thrive in all types of setting, if parents are involved, teaching their children respect, a love of education or a why it's so important, see they do their homework, communicating with teachers, show up for back to school, parent teacher conferences, and help by setting up their kids to do well, by having homework time, bath time, bed time (which is important), a routine. I could go on, but bottom line is that PARENTS are the number one reason why kids do well, or not....after that, maybe, it's the school, maybe.
I've seen the importance, and lack, for myself.
School spending goes up every year? what else did fox tell you?
School spending goes up every year...
...for athletics and facilities. Parents feel they are *entitled* to have state champions and facilities better than "that rival town."
It is not the teachers (or unions for you union haters) demanding more sports and more money poured into buildings.
You're right. The unions are too busy demanding higher benefits packages and protecting poor performers.
Yeah mpa - during all those years of low pay the teachers are told "but your benefits package makes up for it."
Now people get hit with a recession and want the benefits package back, too. Where were you guys the last 50 years? Oh yeah, you were enjoying thousands of dollars in pay raises during good economic times while teachers made their same low salaries. Now that things have evened out a little, people who no longer have their cushy salaries for doing less work than teachers do are like whiny children crying "no fair!"
The rules have been in place for decades. Teachers exchange low salary for good benefits - they knew that going in and so did you. They chose and so did you. Now that their choice seems to be good in a down economy you want to take it away.
Republicans would call that a socialist redistribution of wealth.
We need to stop thinking private vs public when we all are grown-up to know that there is good and bad in almost all systems!
Repubs are the Confeds: single states
Dems are the Union: United States
there is good and bad in both positions!
By reading newsvine comments
I will vote for mitt and ryan and a dem house and senate, that way neither side can get away with just blaming the other side!
here's an example of what is wrong with our education system. a system whose perennial complaint is it needs more money.
notice how the DoE in MN hands out waivers but then claims it doesn't have enough resources to keep track of the number of waivers it gave out. what a joke our education system has become. it hemorrhages money at the expense of the students. but at least the DoE execs and public union fat cats get theirs. All thanks to the dummies who resist real change.
Vouchers will only help the wealthy that already send their children to private schools. Big surprise that Romney supports them. As demand for private school slots increases, so won't tuition. When the vouchers don't cover the entire tuition, poor people will be forced to return their children to the public schools which no longer will have adequate funding. If the vouchers don't provide private schools with enough money to provide an adequate education, how will public schools be expected to do it?
Not quite on target, Dave. This isn't simply a supply/demand driven issue. The licenses to operate these schools are limited to a given number of seats. As demand increases, these schools don't have the ability to meet that increase - without going to the licensing agencies and getting more seats.